Transcript of S2E6: Attila (with Christopher Walken and Sarah Bock)

Hey, Adam. Yeah. Is your experience at work a bit dysfunctional lately?

I don't know. I think it's...

Okay, I'll take that as a yes. Your team could undergo a highly controversial surgical procedure that would mercifully sever any and all memories of that work experience from your home lives. Or you could try Confluence by Atlassian.

Oh, my God. Well, if it's a choice between those two things, I think I would 100% choose Confluence by Atlassian.

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That would equal out, if we're playing with, let's just say 100%, 5. 2 of those percentage points, that's the improvement.

I mean, I'm not great at math, but that sounds very close.

Well, I'm doing the math in my head right now as we speak, and I think that's great.

Why not keep your team unsevered? In Confluence, the connected workspace where teams can do it all. Set knowledge free with Confluence. Learn more at atlassian. Com/confluence. That's atlassian. Com/confluencie. You still Did you still get as excited about working as you did when you were starting out?

In this business, if you do something and it works, chances are you'll be asked to do something like it again. I find that now that I'm old, when I thought I was going to get grandpa parts and kids coming to you saying, grandpa, what should we do? I say, just always do the right thing, that part. But I'm still being asked to play vampires and those guys.

Vampire, grandpa.

Grandpa, vampire.

Hey, I'm Ben Stiller.

I'm Adam Scott.

And this is the Severance podcast with Ben and Adam, where we break down every single episode of Severance.

Today, we're talking about the sixth episode of Season 2, Attilla, written by Aaron Wagoner and directed by Uta Brechowicz.

We have a really special guest this episode. We're joined by the legendary Chris Walkin, who plays Bert Goodman.

Oh, my God. Yeah.

Really excited for that. I got a chance to talk to him, and it was, I have to say, a highlight of my young career I bet. Show business. I bet.

Your nascent show business career. I bet it was. What an honor to have him on the show.

Good Lord. It was incredible.

After that, Ben and I will unpack the rest of episode 6, and we'll also hear from Sarah Bach, who plays Ms. Wong, to check in on how things are going on the Severed floor.

Who has a real nascent career.

She sure does, an actual one.

And an actual future in show business because she's amazing. And of course, we got Zack Cherry back to predict. So far, he's zero % right on anything that he's predicted.

Yeah, but in a way, he's been on target, if you know what I mean? No. If you think about it in a certain way, he's 100 % right.

About what?

Whatever, man. I guess you don't get it. Okay, here is your spoiler warning. We are talking about everything from episode 6 of season 2, so go watch it before you listen to this podcast.

Yes, don't worry. The podcast will still be here. We promise. Adam?

Yeah.

Everything all right? How's things going with you, by the way?

Everything's good. You know what I just realized is we are at the halfway point of season 2. Right. Yeah. How weird is that?

It's weird, and it's been fun. I've enjoyed it very much. It's been interesting. These episodes are much more firmly in my frontal cortex or whatever part of my brain that would remember things. It's like dipping into the more recent past.

Much different experience than going through season one, that's for sure.

Yeah, for sure. But it was great to just now talk to Chris Walkin. I actually just came from Chris Walkin's house.

I'm so jealous. You got to actually go talk to him at his house and talk about this particular episode and his character and stuff?

Yeah, we got to talk a little bit about the episode and about how he got involved with Severance and also about acting. I got to really nerd out a little bit. That's great. I'm happy that I finally After knowing Chris, probably for like 35 years in terms of when I first met him, but never really being like, I could never say, Hey, I'm friends with Chris Walk. And by this point, having worked together a few times, it was great to be able to I feel comfortable enough to ask him some nerdy movie questions about acting because I never say this in front of him because he's just way too humble. But I think he's one of our best actors ever.

100 %.

One thing I'll tell you that he told me, and we didn't get this on tape in the interview. It was like right after we put the microphones away. We were talking still about acting and how sometimes nobody knows what you're thinking as an actor, right? But they just see you thinking, and that is what reads, and the audience fills it in. It makes it feel real because they're actually thinking about something. He said that Bugs Bunny is one of his favorite actors ever. He was saying this with a twinkle in his eye, but not really. He said, A lot of times I've played roles as if I was Bugs Bunny, but nobody knew. Now, which character, which movie, we don't know.

That is so Christopher Walken.

He means It's great. He means it.

Yeah, that's why it's so Christopher Walken. He's not messing around. The result of that is a fascinating performance, I'm sure.

Yeah, it's great. But I started off with your question, Adam, about the hair. I said, Adam thinks you have awesome hair. He was like, Yeah, hair is important. So cool.

Well, let's get to it. Let's listen to it.

I'm excited. Adam, Scott wanted me to ask you about... He thinks your hair is awesome, and I think Adam has amazing hair. Yeah. How How important is hair for you acting-wise?

Curiously, it's important, and I have no idea why.

It is, right?

Yeah. I remember when I was in high school, there was a girl I was crazy about. I wanted to take her to the prom. It took me weeks to think about it. I said to her, Finally, I said, Would you go to the prom? She said, I would go with you, except I've got this boyfriend. He's an older guy, and he's very jealous. I was 15, so it was mid-fifties, and she took out a wallet. These girls, they had these big wallets with all these pictures in them. She flipped, and she showed me this guy who was so unbelievably good-looking. He's Zula in the good-looking. I said, That's not a picture of your boyfriend. You cut that out of a magazine. It was obvious. She said, Yeah, it's this guy. He's a singer. I'm crazy. But anyway, it was Elvis. What? Oh, my God. I went and I bought a shirt with a big collar. I comb my hair into a pompador, and I took her to the dance. So I think that's where the hair thing might have started.

Wow. Then ever since, you've... Because I remember, even when we first started working on the show, you were very specific about your hair, and I totally identified with it because I get crazy about my hair, too.

It's a thing.

Right? Yeah. You want to feel comfortable, right? I remember you were like, just let it be what it is.

Also, your hair gives you a silhouette. Sometimes you see your shadow. The hair is a big deal. But why that is? I don't know. It's a mystery.

Yeah. I love that you're on the show and that you play Bert. I had dinner with Turr, and he said, I thought it'd be great if Chris could be Bert when I first met him.

Well, that must be how it started, because in a situation like Bert and Irving, you need something between the actors. Actors, of course, generate their own energy, but when you put them together, sometimes something else happens. I had known John for a long time. I'd been in, I think, three of his movies.

He directed you, right?

Yeah. It was like people, like your mom and dad. It's like They find each other funny and interesting and enjoy each other's company, all that stuff that make a relationship. I feel that way about John. Even if he gets annoyed at I know he feels that way about me.

I think he loves you. I mean, I feel like-No, we do.

We're brothers. I think when you point the camera at that, the camera sees it.

Yeah. So much of the Bert and Irving relationship in the first season of the show is about that connection that's between the words that's going on, the subtext of just the energy between you two.

Yeah. It's that thing that you can see with people. Sometimes I meet a guy and maybe I don't even like him. Then his wife walks in and I can see that she thinks he's funny and terrific and she's crazy about him. I have to rethink it. I think, Well, if she feels that way, he must be okay. I think people do that with each other. They reinforce.

That's interesting.

They give each other confidence and they reflect that. If you're looking at it, you can see it. You can You can look at a good marriage. You can look at a friendship. You just see it.

It's interesting to me about acting, too, that you talk about having confidence, but so much of it is also, I think, about vulnerability. Too.

Daring to be vulnerable, yeah.

Daring to be vulnerable.

To be able to take that chance and know that they've... I think of acting sometimes as being the circus thing, the trapeze, where you flip off the thing, the other guy is going to be there to catch you.

Right.

You're looking after each other. Yeah.

Right. And I remember the first day that we worked on the show, it was the first scene between you and Irving, you and Toturo. And I remember being very nervous, even though I'd known you over the years, I'd never worked with you as a director, been a fan for a long time. But for me, my generation growing up watching you in the movies was really very much an informed my desire to want to be in movies, watching the stuff that you were doing. So I was a little intimidated. I'm curious, when you're working with a director, what are you looking for?

Well, there are certain directors where you know that you're going to be seen at your best. I remember when I was about to make a movie with Steven Spielberg, I was at the Chateau Marmot, and I was waiting for the elevator, and a great actor, I won't say who it is, but a great actor was standing there who had worked with Steven Spielberg. He said, What are you up to? Actors always say to each other, What are you, are you busy? Are you doing something? I said, Yes, I'm about to work with your friend Steven Spielberg. He said, You're in very good hands. And that was absolutely true. I didn't know Spielberg, but when I was done shooting it, I thought, Yeah, that's a perfect description. You get the feeling that you're in very good hands. He looked after you.

In a way, does that free you up as an actor?

Absolutely. You feel you can... If it's not right, you'll do another take, you'll tone it down, you'll do this, you'll do that. If you're very upset and sad, it might be light and funny. Mike Nichols used to talk about naming things. He would say, What are we talking about in the scene?

What's the scene about?

What are we talking about, really? People talk all the time about this and that. But underneath it, there's something going on. And he talked about that, and then he'd say, Okay, let's take that and flip it.

If you and I are in a scene and I'm mad at you, let's flip it around.

You're crazy about me suddenly.

But I'm still playing the same words in the same text, but it's having a different intention underneath it.

It led me to the idea that the audience doesn't have to know what I'm talking about just so long as they know that I know what I'm talking about. It's like life. I've met people, they talk, I don't know what they're talking about, but I know that they're absolutely solid.

Right. You can trust that they know what they're talking about. As an actor, that's what you want, right? Because most of the time you're playing a part, you're playing a doctor or a lawyer or something that you're not, but you want people to believe that you are. How do you get yourself to believe that? Because I remember you telling me when we first met a little bit about your process, about how you look at a script and prepare to really live in it.

It makes me think about severance, how severance would apply to an actor. Because what I do at work has mostly to do with what I do in my kitchen. In what way? I stand for as much time as I have in my kitchen at this counter with the script, and I go over it and over it and over it. You see one day you're reading it, mumbling it to yourself, and something sounds right. It sounds like if I was talking to somebody, I would believe them.

So you say it out loud and you hear it.

You hear it, and And suddenly it sounds like you're telling the truth. And that's it. That's what I'm looking for. But I did that in my kitchen, and then I try to bring it to the set.

How does it translate? Do you get there and Oh, I did this better in my kitchen?

Or do you-No, you found out what you're talking about. You've named it.

You found it in the kitchen, and so you can take it.

Yeah, you know what it is.

And then I found watching you work when we do scenes, every take is a little different.

Sure. That's another thing to do with severance. It's that thing with actors. I've been in the business for such a long time, and there are actors who I've seen in dozens of movies, and I think I know them a little bit. Then suddenly, you've got a job and you're working with them and you meet them and you're on the set with them every day. It's that same person that you know from all the movies that you saw. But there's a little difference. They're a little bit this or that, or they're a little funnier than you thought they were. They're a little more serious. They're a little more... It's the same, except it's a little bit different. And I think of that with Severance, too. Definitely. The guy goes to work and then he goes home. He's the same guy, but he's a little bit...

That's what's interesting, I think, about the show for actors is that Adam is playing Audi and Enny. John is playing his Audi and Enny, but they're the same person, but they're different aspects of themselves. And the question of how much bleeds through, what are the commonalities between the Indy and the Audi, I think is really It's fun for actors to explore.

Yeah. And it's the difference between the guy at home and the guy at work.

Do you feel as playing Bert as an actor, playing these parts? Because we were talking about You're just an actor, but you haven't lived these experiences that you're portraying most of the time. Do you think that's valuable for people? I think it's really valuable for people, even if it's these ridiculous actors trying to be serious. And it's so easy to make fun of actors, right? But I was telling you that in Deer Hunter, you did this amazing work. Can you take that in and go, Okay, yeah, I was able to help people experience something even though I didn't experience it?

Yeah, It depends on... They say about certain actors, Well, he's always in character. I suppose I never felt that I was that way. I come home and I leave it at the set and I come back the next day. I remember I played a part I played all these disturbed and disturbing people, and I was playing this one guy, and this guy was particularly twisted. I was sitting in my dressing room in front of the makeup mirror, and I looked up and I saw myself, and I immediately looked away like a reflex. I didn't want to make eye contact with this guy, and I didn't want to deal with him. I didn't want to be around him. I suppose it can get into your pores.

Actors talk about playing bad characters or evil characters and finding a way to empathize with them or find their humanity. Do you look at it that way?

Yeah, usually I just I don't take it seriously.

But doing a movie like Deer Hunter, how did you approach that?

Well, the Deer Hunter was different. It was the beginning for me. It was one of the first. And there I had this big, beautiful part, and I was in this these wonderful different locations and with these actors, it was heaven. I knew that whatever it was that was happening was going to make a big difference in my life. Sometimes, when you meet your wife or something like that, you know that something's going on. I remember walking down the street in Bangkok. We were in the middle of shooting and the rain started to come down like a wall. Rain there is different from other places, and it's hot. It's hot rain. I remember thinking, This is just great. I'm in this thing that's so amazing.

You could appreciate that within it.

Yeah, you could feel it.

Yeah. The scene for me that I was telling you about earlier is the scene where you're in the hospital after and just this moment, there's no dialog in it. It's a very... Where you feel it all. I'm just curious because that moment to me is one of those moments for me in How did you approach a scene like that? Do you remember?

It was exactly to me. When I was really little, I don't know, eight years old, I used to go to summer camp, and it was only a couple of hours away in the Pocanos or something. But I felt like I'd been sent to Mars, that I was never getting back. I didn't like anybody I was with. It was just a nightmare. I remember clearly that all that came back to me, sitting there on the balcony in Bangkok. It was just like I was eight years old and I couldn't get home. Wow.

It's amazing to me because I remember going to camp, being homesick, my dad coming up because I was so home and never feeling anything like that. Like I was just so alone.

Oh, absolutely.

I was up in Maine. My parents sent me up there. And it's amazing to me because that feeling-It was summer camp all over again. It's the pain of that. Yeah.

Why do people send their kids to summer camp?

So that we can have great performances and movies.

Yeah, so you can learn.

Okay, we're going to take a short break, but I'll be back with Christopher Walkin to talk about the dinner scene with Bert, Irving, and Fields right after this. Whether you're You're a true crime junkie or just getting into it, you're going to love Crimehouse True Crime Stories, a Crimehouse original podcast. Every Monday, you'll go on an in-depth journey through two of the most notorious true crime cases from that week in history, all connected by a common theme. From notorious serial killers to chilling disappearances and tragic murders. We're bringing you the defining events that shaped true crime, both past and present. Crimehouse Crimehouse True Crime Stories dives into the full stories behind the headlines, covering high-profile cases like the murder of Gabby Petito, the kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart, the Heaven's Gate cult tragedy, and plenty of other cases you may not know but won't forget. Follow and listen to Crimehouse True Crime Stories, an odyssey podcast in partnership with Crimehouse Studios, available now on the free odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts. This message is brought to you by Apple Pay. We all know that our credit card numbers can be stolen, but you know it's harder to steal?

Your face. With Apple Pay, your purchases are authenticated by you, thanks to Face ID. Just double click, smile, and tap. With each tap, your card number and your purchases stay secured. Pay the Apple way with your compatible device anywhere contactless payment is accepted. Apple Pay is a service provided by Apple Payment Services, LLC, a subsidiary of Apple Inc. Any card used in Apple Pay is offered by the card issuer. Bert in the show is a sweet guy. You were saying you like to play guys like that, right?

Yeah. It's also that, who said that thing that most men live lives of quiet desperation. When I was a kid, I knew this guy, and he had a printing shop. He made menus and business cards and all that. But what he did in his spare time, and if you went to this little cramped apartment that he had, he built sets out of cardboard and painted them of Gilbert and Sullivan productions. He was fanatical about it, and he was always at the matiné of this or that. I thought, here's a guy who's single. He doesn't have any kids or anybody to take care of but himself. I thought, why are you in this printing shop? Why aren't you involved in the theater? Why aren't you doing Gilbert and Sullivan? Why aren't you building sets, doing the thing you love? I feel about Bert a little bit that way. He's got these interests.

Appreciation of art.

Art and paintings and all that. And he's working this tedious existence when he's got this... He really wants to do something else.

I guess that's what the connection with Irving is, right? He finds somebody who Yeah, a kindred spirit.

Yeah.

So anybody who's severed on the show, any character has the outie and the innie. And you got to in season two, we're talking about episode six in this episode of the podcast, which is the dinner, the dinner with the fields. Yeah. In that dinner scene, you and John are meeting. You've come to see him because he came knocking at your door, and you know that he has any New Year, any. But then you invite him to dinner at your house with your husband. There's an energy that's there between you and him that is not Burton Irving on the inside, but there's something there. Yeah.

There's also the element of, you say to your wife, Hello, I'd like you to meet my girlfriend. Exactly. Let's have dinner. Right. Maybe not a good idea. It feels as tending the hand. I hope you're like a cumin glaze. Oh, yes, of course. Do you not? No, I do. Attila? Yes, Attila. Did you just ask about the glaze? I did. Well, don't. I've already put it on. I was going to say we also have corn. Oh, yes.

We could feed him a pile of loose corn.

What your innie ever saw in this philistine, It's beyond me. Fields, I presume. Yes. Irving. Irving.

Yes.

Welcome back to our home. Yes, I'm sorry about the last time. I'm sure that felt quite invasive. Nonsense. What's mine's yours, and you've brought wine.

What's so interesting to me in this scene is that the relationship between you and Fields is obviously complicated, and you can tell he's jealous that you guys have a thing on the inside.

Yeah. Well, I introduced my boyfriend to my husband. Right. He says, This is dangerous. Right.

And it's interesting. It's like, what's the motivation? Why are you doing that in your relationship with your husband? There's obviously some stuff going on. You don't want him to drink as much. We see that he hits the wine a little bit too much. Yeah. It was fascinating because what it shows me is that there's still a connection no matter what between these guys, even if you don't know what was happening on the inside between you and John. And that's, to me, the core of the show is this exploration of the two sides of ourselves and integrating those. What do we need from each side of ourself? Can you separate yourself from your emotions? Can you separate from your past experience experiences. I talked to a veteran who saw the show and really connected with the show because he had experienced PTSD, and he was really fascinated with the idea of severing from memories and how that could possibly help people who have PTSD?

Oh, sure. If we could just move past things sometimes. The stuff that we carry around and stuff that happens to us when we were kids that got in our way, the stuff that we carry. It would be nice to have that ability to just throw it out the window and move on.

Yeah. Do you need to face that stuff and process it, or can you just cut it off and not deal with it?

I suppose that's what religions try to do. You go to confession, you get it off your chest, you start a new day.

Yeah. When brings up the religion in the dinner, and he says that basically you got severed so that they could have a chance at saving your soul, right? Yeah.

The sermon that day is about severance, which was still very new at the time, and theaster says. As if he'd been listening to our conversation.

He said, The church's stance is that innies are complete individuals with soul that can be judged separately from the Routie.

An innie can go to heaven whilst the Routie burns.

We're not zealots, I swear.

But we figured that if it were true, it may be a way for part of Bert to You basically got severed because you went to hear the pastor speaking about severance.

And what we get the idea is that Bert has done some things on the outside that perhaps were not on the up and up, the darker side of his personality and that this severed side of Bert could possibly go to heaven.

Yeah. And to be able to start over again is marvelous. Yeah. And to forgive yourself.

Yeah. That's my dad always used to like Yom Kippur in the Jewish religion because you go there and you atone for your sins and you start fresh.

You did things that didn't always work out, but now it's a new day you move on. That would be to Terrific. To be able... Every day is another day.

Yeah, but the reality also for people with these traumatic memories or experiences. How can you? How can you?

Some people have stuff that they can't forget.

Yeah.

That's torture.

Are you religious at all?

I'm not religious, but I am afraid of God. And maybe Bird is, too.

All right, man. This is great. Thank you for doing this. No, it's fine. Yeah, it's great. Wow.

Before Before we get into recapping the rest of the episode, I just have to say that was amazing.

Yeah, it was so cool to be able to talk to Chris. I love him so much, and I've been such a fan for so long, so it was really great to talk to him.

That's unbelievable. Well, well done, Ben. All right, so we have heard what's going on with Bert Nerving this episode. Let's talk about what everyone else is up to. We should start with Dylan's Innie and Gretchen, who are back together in the visitation. Sweet. It's right.

I sometimes wonder if you're just not happy. I'm sure it's not that. Because, I mean, here, with you, I'm super happy.

I just want to hear about all my offspring and stare at your face.

Sorry, that was weird. No, it was really sweet.

I like it.

I like this.

I wish we could really be together. Like, all the time.

I mean, we are, aren't we? You and him are.

But I'm not.

Wow. The seagals in the distance, fluttering around and music. It's really scary, isn't it?

It is. Where did the idea for the seagal sound come from?

The seagal sound came from the backdrop that we had painted that's behind them. It's like a Museum of Natural History painted diorama vibe with fake grass, like tall grass. In the background, you see there's a seagal. We thought, why not Lumen would be going for the full experience? Sure.

It's such a relaxing, soothing sound. I get it. Yeah.

It's the old security room. They totally just gave it a facelift. I think that's one of the really more fun, ominous, weird things in season 2 is that the revamping of the old scary rooms into nice, warm, happy places, supposedly. Yeah.

It's just so great seeing Dylan so happy and talking about his feelings and experiencing them, experiencing love for the first time. But also, Marit is so wonderful. When they go in for the hug, he once asked for a hug, and you see her take this moment right before their hug where she's going through her own experience of this is so weird but so sweet, and getting to start over with her husband and still having these feelings. There's so much going on It's just fascinating to watch.

Yeah, well, the whole episode is very much about the relationship, the relationship between Gretchen and Dylan, Mark and Haley, Bert and Irving. I think if there was a theme for this episode, it would be people connecting. I'm not going to say hooking up, but there's a lot of romanticness happening in this episode. Yeah. And I think it was actually really fun to have an episode like that where it really focused on these core relationships. And the Dylan and Gretchen storyline is just such a uniquely severance type of story because you can't do that really in any other show. And I think that's when we're looking at the story, we're I was looking at what are situations that you could only do with this setup. And I think the idea of Dylan and Gretchen having basically an affair on his Audi.

I was going to ask, is it an affair? Is that what this is?

To me, that's what it feels like. It's almost like she's going to visit a guy in prison, and she's having conjugal visits or something with this guy. I mean, they're not sleeping together, but it's this... I mean, it is very prison-like. Even in episode three, when she first comes in, she's got the little clear plastic pouch that they give her, which is a thing they do in prison so that they can see through what you're bringing in and out. And I think that's what I think is so interesting about this storyline is that it seems like they're really developing a bond. And then we immediately go afterwards to Audi Dylan at home, and she's not telling him what's going on. Yeah. And she's wrestling with it. She's keeping it from him. But she's really attracted to this version of Dylan that is the less... He doesn't have the weight of the world on him. He doesn't have all the outside problems that are definitely affecting their relationship.

Yeah. And the most important thing in the world to him is her. He is just smitten and is completely in love with her. You can see in Marat's performance just how good that feels. And there's just so much going on there.

Yeah. For Dylan, it's great because Dylan is finally realizing there's a world beyond perks and there's a world beyond finger traps and caricatures. It's really the extension of what was started at the end of season on when he says, I want to know my kids. This is him getting really in a manipulative way by Milchick, who has decided to let him have this as a way of, I think, somehow dividing him from the others, keeping this secret. That's working, too, by the way, which we saw play out in episode five and the tension between Mark and Dylan, and he's not sharing this with them. But personally for him, he's literally falling in love, and he's understanding what a human relationship is.

Yeah. Dylan has been compromised since episode one. Milchick really got in there right away and knew that this would work. Yeah.

But yet I'm also happy for Dylan that he's feeling this. To see Zack embody him growing as a person is really cool. Yeah. Then, meanwhile, Mark and Haley are working out their stuff. I think Mark has been trying to reconcile how he feels about the fact that he slept with Helena, but also you tell her, right?

I think we should talk about that scene.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He threatened you.

As I was leaving in the elevator. They're trying to intimidate us, divide us. It's so that we won't work together because they know what will happen if we do.

I'm going to go get that map. Helena, we shared vessels. What's that? Well, we had sex.

Okay.

You in... Like...

Like in a wellness session?

No, not... Ms. Casey, it was... At the retreat. It's... In your tent. Oh. Yeah. Oh. Yeah, Milchick forces Mark's hand there with the threat in the elevator. If he's going to use that as a threat, then Mark just figures he should tell her anyway, it's the right thing to do. But Milchick seems to assume that he's going to want to keep it from her. So for that reason and others in the bathroom stall, he tells her that they shared vessels.

I also like how Uta shot that scene in the stall, in the bathroom stall. There are so few spaces that we haven't shot in the MDR because it's just basically that room, the kitchenette, and the bathroom. We've explored a lot of different ways to shoot things, and even in the bathroom. But she figured out a blocking with you two and a way of shooting that in the stall that I thought was really elegant. Actually, it's one of my favorite-looking scenes in the show.

I love it, too, and I love how isolated Heli looks and feels. You can see physically Brit once she actually gets that information backing up, even though there's nowhere to go. It's such a violation.

Yeah. I think that was Uta as a director is really great with actors. I think really looking at that scene from Heli's perspective of how to process that and the moments afterwards where she's walking the halls and thinking about it and churning it in her head and comes to terms with what she feels. I thought Brit did an amazing job with that, too, in terms of just internally seeing her at that. And then editorially, the way that we start to intercut Gretchen and Dylan coming together, as Dylan asked for a hug from her, and we start to feel there's more between the two of them. And as they start to come in and really have physical contact, at the same time, Haley's there thinking about her first kiss with Mark in season one. And as that's happening, and as they're finally getting to the point where they connect, something goes off for Haley in her head where she realizes, Hey, you know what? Helena had this, but I want it because that's how I feel about you.

Look, I am so sorry. I can't even imagine what it must be like.

You thought it was me.

100%.

Which means you wanted to with me.

Yeah.

What sucks is that she got to have that and I didn't. That she used me to check my friends, used my body to get close to you, that she dresses me in the morning like I'm a baby, that she controls me and this company and all of us. It's disgusting.

Do you want me to describe what happened? I feel like you have every right-No, I don't want her memory.

Okay. I want my own. Would you like that?

I love that. I thought that was such a cool... I remember reading that scene and being like, Yeah, that's such a place of strength for her.

Yeah. That was something we talked a lot about with Bo Williman when he came in and working on our season.

Yeah, Bo is one of our writers and executive producers for season 2. Yeah.

I remember that was the thought that came from him that was really a logical thought and a very emotionally grounded idea for when you're thinking about how do these characters react to one another besides the mystery element of the show or the weirdness element of the show or any of that stuff. At the core, it's about these characters who we're trying to be with and track and believe. It was his thought that she would want to have that for herself that I think really makes that scene so special because it's surprising. And I think maybe as a viewer, I'm thinking, I thought about this when we were putting it together. It's like, wow, I hope this works for people because it seems unexpected to me that we would have had Mark and Helena sleep together in episode 4, and then Heli and Mark sleep together in episode 6. That might not be expected. And all of a sudden, people are getting together a lot more. But for me, it felt very very organic in that this would be what Heli would want. These two people do have these feelings for each other. The fact that she knows that she had that connection with him and she really wanted that was something that felt, okay, yeah, that's unexpected.

It to see, but yet totally believable to me.

Yeah, because she and Mark were falling in love with each other, and Helena decided to interrupt that and take it for her, steal it. And yes, Bo really was instrumental and really great with Mark and Heli stuff, and from that clearing of the decks in episode four, really terrific with figuring out a way to get this relationship back on track and the direction to push it in.

Yeah, and it's also Something like something... You talk about season 2 and doing things we hadn't done before. It was ground that I was very trepidacious about stepping on in terms of we're going to a place we hadn't seen on the show before, characters sleeping together and not wanting to do the cliché version of that or the bad version of it, but yet also not be afraid to follow that line because it's a natural progression. But it's also something we'd never really done before.

That's right. And it was really important to Brit and I, along with you and Uda and our NMC coordinator, to come up with these two different love scenes with the two of the the same people and make them very different. And they are very different, but they're both really beautiful in their own way.

We had shot episode four already. So when Uta approached the episode 6 love scene, she was able to look at what we had done, and she came up with her own language for that, which is also, I think, one of the most elegant scenes in the show, the way that she filmed that between the two of you and the realness and the closeness and the beauty through the the tent that you make for yourselves out of the plastic tarps that are over the unused carols and desks in there. And it's really beautiful. I do have to bring up, because we're talking about it, that the love scene in episode four, what happened. I think I should... Is it okay to talk about that?

Yeah, the floor is yours.

So I was directing the love scene in the tent in episode four And Jessica, our cinematographer, said to me, I think maybe you should operate the camera for this scene because it's going to be very intimate and close, and you're going to know what you want, and it's going to be handheld, so you should get in there and do it that way for the actors. And what did you think?

When you told us it's just going to be the three of us in there, it was a relief because love scenes are always awkward, but that made it just easier and just less to worry about.

At least that's what you thought because I get in there with the camera. It's a tent, and the tent is we had it on a stage, on the sound stage. We're in the tent, and the tent has an air mattress. The set has an air mattress that you guys are on. That's right. That's part of the set is like the tent's had lumen air mattresses. I don't know if you've ever stepped on an air mattress, but they're hard to get your... It's hard to get your balance Are they? Well, when you're holding a camera, a heavy camera, and you're not a professional camera operator. It is. So we close set, quiet, intimacy coordinator. Everybody's doing everything right, and it's very, very intense and quiet. And it's like, okay, roll camera. And I go in there with the camera, and you guys are there on the mattress, and it's just the light from the heater, and it's really beautiful. The shot's beautiful. And I'm standing there and I'm like, now, you guys are starting to do it. And I'm starting to move around, trying to be motivated by what I'm seeing in the scene. And then I want to go in closer, and I'm stepping forward, and I up on the air mattress, and I literally fall on top of the two of you with my camera.

To paint the picture a little bit, I was laying down and Brit was on top of me at this point. And suddenly, she just falls right on top of me, and Ben is on top of her just like, oh, oh, jeez. And the three of us are in a pile suddenly. It was so ridiculous.

Here I am trying to be Mr. Cool Director guy, and I've just become like klutzy Ben falling on top of two acts. It was so embarrassing.

Honestly, it felt like something from a Ben Stiller movie.

That's what I'm saying. I can't escape my Ben Stiller-ness even when I try.

Your character is a cinematographer, and it's a romantic comedy.

That's not Bendo. It's the Yeah, we have to come up with a new name for this guy. Clutso. Clutso, the cameraman.

It was so funny.

I did not operate anymore for the rest of the shoot. All right, we're going to take a quick break, and then we'll be right back. The MDR team continues to search for answers as they try to piece together memories from the overtime contingency. But luckily, you don't have to take a mind-erasing elevator to work every day. So your workplace productivity can be much simpler with Confluence by Atlassian. Confluence the connected workspace where teams can collaborate and create like never before, where teams have easy access to the relevant pages and resources their projects call for while discovering important contexts they didn't even know they needed. A space where AI streamlines the things that normally eat up their time, letting teams generate, organize, and deliver work faster. In fact, with Confluence, teams can see a 5. 2% average boost in productivity in one year. So goodbye, Severed workplace alienation. Hello, team with Confluence. Set knowledge free with Confluence. Learn more at atlassian. Com/confluence. That's atlassian. Com/confluence. That coming together of Mark and Heli is so satisfying to see that you guys are back on track with each other and connected. At the same time, we're also then going to the outside world, and we have the first time where you ever start to lose time and literally fritz out where you find yourself back in the basement when you literally were just at lumen.

Yeah, that's right. Which is the first sign of reintegration really starting to maybe go kick in more or go awry or just be out of your control. You flip out on Ragabi, and you're also getting hungry, which is a side effect of the reintegration, and you just storm out and you go to the Chinese restaurant. And that's where we have this incredible... We always called it the heat scene.

Yeah. Mark Friedmann, who is really digging into this scene, also one of our writers and executive producers coined the heat scene. I remember hearing about it long before it happened. We always talked about it being the heat scene.

And the heat being the movie, the Michael Mann movie, the scene where Chino and De Niro meet for the only time in that movie, and the audience has been waiting for that moment. And we thought, well, this is this moment where Helena and Audi Mark are meeting for the first time. And what is that going to be about? And I thought you guys did an amazing job with that scene. The writing of the scene, I think, is really interesting. There's so much under the surface and so many levels to what you're experiencing with her and what she wants from you. It's really interesting. It never should have happened, and it never will again. We take pride as a company to be better than that, and we will be better.

That's nice to hear. Thanks. Of course. So you know all about it then?

Yes, I know all about it.

I'm like the head of the company, Mark.

Right. Dumb. Sorry.

Yeah, you should be sorry.

Really? I'm kidding.

Okay.

You're clearly not dumb.

No, you're the one who invented a revolutionary medical procedure.

Hey, now, that was not me.

That was my father.

You should meet him sometime.

Your father?

Sure.

Why not? You want to take me home to dad already?

Yeah, I think it's finally time. Okay, sure.

Let's do it.

He'd be the first.

So no pressure?

Yeah, none whatsoever.

I love this scene. It was fun to do, and it was just fun to get this new dynamic between Brit and I and figure out what it would be. And it ended up having this charge to it. These two people... Like, Audi Mark is scared shitless of this person and has no concept of who she is to him on the inside, but she does, obviously, and she knows they've actually slept together. So there's so much going on. But the fact that there ended up being this almost flirtatious charge to the scene was something that just really started happening while we were shooting it and felt really interesting.

You dip into it and then you go away from it and then you give into it and then you're...

Well, she starts fucking with me by getting Gemma's name wrong.

What do you think that's about?

Oh, I think she's 100 % fucking with me, just toying, seeing what reaction she can get.

That's so interesting. And she gets one. It's so interesting because it's almost like some a manipulation that Milchick would do on the inside, but it's Helena doing it on the outside.

But maybe she's not... You know, Brittany never talked about that or any of it. Maybe it's sincere, I don't know, but that's how I took it then.

I think it's, yeah. When you think of all that's the baggage in that scene, it was earlier that same day, you both slept with each other.

Yeah. But neither of us are aware of that.

Neither of you are aware of that, but she's aware that she slept with you, and you're not aware that you slept with her.

With either of her.

Either of her. And that to me, what's so interesting to me about that is, again, it's the question of what permeates, what permeates, what peremones are there? What's the memory there What is the connection? What's the love feeling? What's all those things. There's just so much going on. I'm sure as actors, there's just so much there to have just waiting to call up or play with.

Yeah, that's part of what was interesting about it is that there was something there, and it was entirely different from whatever connection or flotation exists in either of the versions that we had done before. It was like this new So we're more weird or more lived in thing because both of these people have lived a lot longer than the innies and the grown-ups more. It was just weird.

And we shot that at a great restaurant called Angs up in Kingston, New York. It's a beautiful restaurant. Great exterior, too. Yeah. And then you're all freaked out. You come out. That spurs you to say, yes, let's go and let's do the souped up version of reintegration where she's going to inject the chip and really take it to the next level. And then Devon comes over while you're feeling the effects of this. And the ending of the episode is really you basically going unconscious. We don't know what's going to happen to you. Yeah.

There's a seizure Yeah.

I mean, it's gone as far. And for us as an audience, we remember what happened to Pee Dee outside of the gas station. And then we're also left at the end after the Bert and Irving dinner where it all comes out. It's just interesting thematic Mathematically, in this episode, I think it's all the relationship, the relationship confrontation stuff is happening. And then, yeah, Bert and Irving realized that there's something going on there between them two. The same thing. 100 %. And we're left with that last moment of bird at the door where we don't quite know what Audi Bert is up to. And it's great because Chris Walkin can just give a look. And I think when Chris is looking at that door at him, I don't know what Chris is thinking. He's probably thinking, I'm Bugs Bunny.

Yeah, I was just going to say I think it was Bugs Bunny.

Chris Walk and Bugs Bunny can be chilling. All right. This is great, man.

Yeah, this has been great. But we've got one final treat for listeners this episode. We got to talk with the great Sarah Bach, who plays Ms. Wong. So let's go talk with Lumen's new Deputy Floor Manager of the Severed Floor, Sarah Bach. Sarah, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to see you guys.

Same. Yeah. Could not be happier to have you here.

How's life for you these days?

It's pretty good. It's pretty crazy. It's crazy that the show is coming out and midterms are next week and everything.

Yeah, you're in your first year of college, and the show just came out a few weeks ago. What has it been like?

Honestly, it's been pretty chill because when it first came out, I was really sick, so I didn't see anyone. But now that I've been out, my friends have been really supportive, and they threw me a little surprise premiere party, which was so sweet.

I saw that on Instagram. It was so cool.

Oh my gosh, yeah. No, that made my week. But yeah, everyone's been pretty chill about it, which I appreciate.

That's great. I heard you when you were doing the mic check talking about choreographing something. Are you working on a show there right now?

Oh, yeah. There's one of the theater boards. It's directed towards TYA, Theater for Young Audiences. They're putting on Frog and Toad right now, and I'm assistant choreographing that. This morning, we were working out some of the routines and teaching it to the cast, which is really fun.

That's great. Yeah.

Well, you're awesome in the show. When we found you, I was so happy because Dan had this idea to have this character, Ms. Wong, and that she would be a young person and we're thinking about who she could be and what she could be like. It's that thing with any actor when you're looking for somebody to play a role, when somebody walks in and they just have a special quality that feels so right. I wonder what your memory is coming in to audition for the show.

Oh, my gosh. I was so scared. I don't know if you remember my first time meeting you. We were both testing for COVID because that was still going on, and it was at my final callback. I just remember being so terrified to meet you, but also so excited. But no, I was so terrified.

How did you hear about it? Because you don't live in Hollywood or New York or anything, right?

No, I'm from North Carolina, so I got a self tape from my manager, and I just put myself on tape and hoped for the best.

Cool. Then you came in and you read in person with us, I remember. Yeah. At the call back, did you feel like when you walked out of it, did you feel like, Okay, that went well? Because I know when I've auditioned for things in the past, sometimes you have a feeling when you... It feels like it went well. Like, Oh, maybe this could work out.

Yeah, I remember the in-person one I had a lot of fun at, and I thought that went really well. Except you did bring me back into the room at one point, and you asked me to improvise, which I remember terrified me because all the other girls, they were like, Oh, my gosh, she had us improvise. I was like, That sucks for them. I'm happy I went first, thank God. I guess I didn't even think that you guys could possibly make me do that. And then the second, I thought that then pulled me back. But other than that, I thought it went pretty well.

So we all know that Ben is just so mean, right? So that was your first taste of how mean he can making you improvise. Improvise.

It was with that water toy, and I didn't know what it was, so I was so confused.

Oh, right. And then the water toy became... I mean, it's really like you really mastered that thing. Had you ever seen one of those before?

No, I'd never seen it.

That used to be all we had, Sarah.

Back before phones and technology, back in the caveman days when we grew up, that's what you played with.

No, I love them. They were really It was really fun.

I just remember you showing up on set your first day and just being so impressed with you right out of the gate. You were so on it. You were dialed in, so funny, relaxed.

Oh, wait, that's so sweet. I did not feel that way. I felt like I was chaotic that first day and stressed. But getting to see what you guys were doing, I was like, I need to try and be on their level and fake it till I make it.

Yeah, I think we're all faking it till we make it. Yeah, pretty much. But you were very, I would not say... The perception for me was you were not chaotic or frazzled. You just were very comfortable in your skin. And there's a stillness to Ms. Wong and this interesting layers to you because you can seem incredibly innocent. But then also there are moments where you seem like you're very knowing and sometimes authoritative, too.

Yeah. I remember on my first day when you had me do that ball game scene and you had me stare at Adam for a super long time. That was when I started to realize how scary she could be. Yeah. And figure out more about the character.

You're intimidating. You really are and were.

By the way, that's not an easy thing to do, I think, as an actor, which is just ask somebody to really not do anything other than just be there in the moment and just look at someone because it can be incredibly revealing in a way. Yeah. And both of you, that's one of my favorite moments in that first episode is really that energy between the two of you, and you just did not flinch at all. What were you thinking when you were staring at Adam like that?

I was thinking, Oh, my God. This has been like, Oh, my gosh, I've been staring for a really long time. Can I stop the staring? Yeah, it was scary. I remember you came up to me a lot and you would be like, I don't know what you're thinking right now, but keep thinking it.

Yeah. No. And that's the other thing. You don't want to mess with something that's going well, right? With an actor, you don't want to tell them something that they become self-conscious of. You want to talk a little bit about Milchick and your relationship with Mr. Milchick? Obviously, it's a very layered relationship that evolves. Let's take a listen to that scene where you guys talk about Milchick's performance review.

I had my performance review yesterday.

How did it go?

Many valid concerns were raised, which I look forward to addressing.

I'm glad for you.

I feel I should remind you, you cannot graduate from this fellowship until I have deemed you winter tide material.

This will mean using your time well, focusing on your own duties and eradicating from your essence, childish folly.

I understand, sir.

I shall be busy for the rest of the day. I trust you can steward the floor in my stead.

Of course.

Good.

You may sit at your regular desk.

Thank you, Mr. Milchick.

It's such an interesting relationship between you two. It feels like there is some power struggle happening there.

Yeah, they definitely have a very interesting dynamic because he's her boss, but also she disagrees maybe with what he's doing a little bit, and she has her own opinions. Doing those scenes with Trimel was so much fun because he's terrifying when he's Mr. Milchick. Totally. Getting to just stare at him and challenge him a little bit, that was really fun.

Yeah, that's my experience working with him is he's the most incredibly warm, sweet, funny, laughing presence. But you guys are so good together. I love the scene in the supply closet in episode 5 when you're getting ready for the funeral for Irving, and that little power struggle that's happening there between the two of you is really fun to watch.

Yeah, I loved all my scenes with Jamel. Those were my favorites. He's so amazing.

For episode four, what was your experience like when we went up into the mountains to shoot that scene? Because you had to learn how to play the theremin for this episode.

Yeah, for real. Yeah. I remember having a bunch of There are no Theramon lessons. My theremin teacher, Jennifer, she was fantastic. She just really drilled me on the technique, which hopefully I got right. Theremin players don't come at me. But that's the only song I know how to play, the song that's in the show. I learned how to play the Severance theme, but that's it. And me, we just drilled that.

That's incredible. That's cool. You can play the Severance theme on the theremin.

Yeah, it was fun.

I And for people, we talked about it episode four, but the theremin is like an instrument where you don't touch it. It's just you're moving your hands through space.

Yeah, and you can't really use muscle memory because depending on the environment, the wavelengths change, I don't really know. It's a weird instrument, but it's really fun.

But then you almost get to play at Irving's funeral, and he stops you. And I think we really see Ms. Wong's cockles go up there a little bit. She gets pretty pissed off.

Yeah. She was told she was going to play, and he went on that agreement. How did he? Bad move.

So are your friends, your friends who are throwing you a party, is it strange to be in the show? Do you feel like that it's affected your everyday life in any way, or Or was it like, you're at school, you're doing your thing, people are cool, like you were saying, and you're just going forward?

Well, I was pretty intentional. Coming in, I didn't want anyone to really know. For the first few months, only two people knew. Then once, it was more announced than everyone had already gotten to know me. Oh, my gosh. Two days ago, I was coming back from the gym. It's a mile and a half away from the dining hall, and it started down pouring rain. When I got to the dining hall, I was disgusting and soaked in rain. I got recognized for the first time by this kid, and he asked me for a picture. It was so embarrassing. Then everyone else around him then caught on, and they were all asking me for pictures. I was like, Are you guys sure? This is not a great look right now.

I'm going I'm going to say that's not the last time that's going to happen to you. This is my prediction in your life. Indeed. Okay. Be prepared. I think it's so awesome that you're able to do what you're doing, going to school. I'm just so impressed with you since I first met you, and you're a joy to work with, and I just wish you all the best and look forward to seeing you in the future.

Oh, thank you. I had so much fun making the show with both of you.

Well done, Sarah.

Yeah, and good luck on midterm, Sarah. I'm so glad that I am not taking that.

Thank you. I'll need that.

If you need any advice on studying, I'm here anytime.

Were you a good student, Adam? No.

This has been such a terrific episode. But before we go, we got to make time for our friend Zack Cherry's favorite segment, where we check in with him, and he has a prediction about what he thinks will happen in episode seven. So, Zack, we're doing this for you. We know it's important to you, so go ahead.

Hello, again. It's Zack here. That was an intense episode of Severance, and I'm here to tell you, things are only going to get more intense. Won't that be fun? Next time on Severance.

I have a feeling that Mark's reintegration is going to go a little funky.

Actually, it's going to be a real Freaky Friday situation where he switches bodies with Regabe, and now he's a surgeon at the hospital. He doesn't have the skills. Hijinks are going to ensue. It's going to be a real sharp pivot tonally for the show, but I think fans are going to be pretty excited with what happens. I have to say that's actually one of the best predictions he's ever had.

It's really good.

Because it actually, to me, thematically, maybe tonally is totally off Freaky Friday, but it does thematically, to me, work in what the show could do.

I love thinking about the broad mid-ot Lindsay Loewen version of Severance happening. I think that's a good idea. I just appreciate that Zack didn't end this one by encouraging people to reach out to us about various subjects.

Yeah, I know. What is he talking about there? By the way, the next time on Severance makes me think of Next Time on Lonnie. Do you remember that web series? It's from Alex. Yeah, Alex Anfanger and It's so funny. It was like a show that you never saw the actual show. All you ever saw were the previews for next week on, and it'll be some crazy thing, so I recommend that.

I did an episode of that. Oh, you did? I did.

You did so many cool web shows. All right, man. Cool.

That is it for this episode. The Severance podcast with Ben and Adam will be back next week to talk about Season 2, episode 7.

And you can stream every episode of Severance on Apple TV Plus with new episodes coming out every Friday.

And then make sure you're listening to our podcast, which drops right after the episode airs. Yes. The Severance podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is a presentation of Odyssey, Pineapple Street Studios, Red Hour Productions, and Great Scott Productions.

If you like the show, be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or your other podcast platform of choice. Our executive producers are Barry Finkel, Henry Malowski, Gabriele Lewis, Jenner Weiss-Burman, and Leah Reece Dennis. The show is produced by Zandra Ellen, Ben Goldberg, and Naomi Scott. This episode was mixed and mastered by Chris Baisal. We had additional engineering from Hobby Kruisas and Davy Subner.

Show clips are courtesy of Fifth Season. Music by Theodore Shapiro. Special thanks to the team at Odyssey, Maura Curran, Eric Donnelly, Michael LeVay, Melissa Wester, Matt Casey, Kate Rose, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Shuff.

And the team at Red Hour, John Lesher, Carolina Pesecob, John Pablo-Antonetti, Martin Valderuten, Aswin Ramesh, Maria Noto, John Baker, and Oliver Acker.

And at Great Scott, Kevin Cotter, Josh Martin, and Christie Smith at Rise Management.

We had additional production help from Kristen Torres and Melissa Slawter. I'm Ben Stiller.

And I'm Adam Scott.

Thank you for listening.

And remember to hang in there.

Mm-hmm.