Transcript of S2E7: Chikhai Bardo (with Dichen Lachman and Jessica Lee Gagné)

Hey, Adam. Yeah. Is your experience at work a bit dysfunctional lately?

I don't know. I think it's...

Okay, I'll take that as a yes. Your team could undergo a highly controversial surgical procedure that would mercifully sever any and all memories of that work experience from your home lives. Or you could try Confluence by Atlassian.

Oh, my God. Well, if it's a choice between those two things, I think I would 100% choose Confluence by Atlassian.

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I mean, I'm not great at math, but that sounds very close.

Well, I'm doing the math in my head right now as we speak, and I think that's great.

Why not keep your team unsevered? In Confluence, the connected workspace where teams can do it all. Set knowledge free with Confluence. Learn more at atlassian. Com/confluence. That's atlassian. Com/confluencie. Just I have one question. This is This is probably really silly. Do you do any other accents? Because your American accent is so good. What else do you do accent-wise? It's really good.

I've been trying to learn an Irish one, actually, because my daughter and I have been watching Bad Sister sisters, and we absolutely love it. Matilda has been walking around the house saying, Blonde, all the different names on the show. Sometimes we'll just start trying to talk to each other in Irish accent, but I have to start perfecting it.

Let's hear it. This is your Bad Sister Season 3 audition.

Stop being such a bad sister. Sister. Stop being such a bad sister, you fuck. I can't swear on this. Can I? I know.

You feckin? Yeah, you can swear.

You can swear. Stop being such a bad sister.

That sounded really good.

Blonnard. What the fuck are you doing?

Hey, I'm Ben Stiller. I'm Adam Scott. And this is the Severance podcast with Ben and Adam, where we break down every episode of Severance.

Today, we're talking about the seventh episode of Season 2, Chekai Bardo, written by Dan Erickson and Mark Friedmann and directed by Jessica Lee-Ganier.

Yeah, this is a really big one, and we have a very special guest to help us talk about it. We are joined by the star of the episode, the transfixing, the incredibly talented, the mesmerizing, the self-effacing. I could go on. Deachen Lockman, who plays Gemma/Miss Casey. Yes.

Hi, guys. Keep going.

And later on, I'll be talking with Jessica Lee-Ganier about directing the episode.

She's so talented. She's also our main cinematographer. Can't wait to talk to her about this.

Yeah. And of course, we'll have our friend Zack Cherry, the favorite segment of the episode for us all, where he predicts what's going to happen in next week's episode.

Yeah, you're welcome, Zack. Okay, here is your spoiler warning. We are talking about everything from episode seven of season two, so go watch it before you listen to this. Can't ever voice that enough.

That's right. It came to our attention recently that it might be a little bit different that we're doing a podcast about a show that we make and the fact that since we know everything in the show that it's hard to not give away spoilers. We give the spoiler warning to people. We give it to ourselves. But of course, when we're talking about the episodes, I'm always thinking about what we don't want to give away. For me, of course, that's the fun of it. That's the fun of it. But then it does make you look inward a little bit. Sure. And question, well, the way I even said that thing that maybe wasn't explaining what happens in the episode, did I in the way I said it? Because we knew people would pay attention to the episodes, but this level of intense analysis.

It's far more intense than season one, I would say.

Yeah. I think there are more people watching the show now, and I realized that people are listening to every little nuance and watching every little speck of detail in the show.

Yeah, maybe even something that we may have said offhandedly gets analyzed as if it were a window into another hint.

A secret message or something. But That's the fun of all of this, I guess. Also, I think for people who are paying attention, sometimes these clues that they're seeing are definitely real things. There's a lot of, I think, institutional memory for people on mystery box-type shows where they're really concerned about where it's going. But for me, a lot of what I love about this show is that aspect, but it's also other things about the show, too. It's fun to watch all of that.

It's great. And just so everyone knows, we go through this show with a fine-tooth comb to make sure that we're not leaking anything out that we don't want.

Nothing at all. Deachen, thank you for joining us. You're You're in London, aren't you?

Yes, I am. I'm sorry if I interrupted you earlier. I wasn't sure if that was the right time to step in.

No, no, no. Not at all.

We'll just talk and talk and talk. You have to interrupt us if you actually want to get a word in.

Deachen, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I've been enjoying listening.

A lot of people know you for work you've done before, Severance. But for me, as a fan, it's always fun when I see a character from a show that I know the character from the and I'm not that familiar with the actor. Then I hear them talk for real and they've got an accent from another country. I'm like, Oh, my God, that's so cool. She's not American. It's such a ridiculous, simple thing. But you are so good with your American accent. Tell people where you're from and a little bit about where you come from.

Yeah, well, I was born in Kathmandu and moved to Australia when I was about seven years old and spent a lot of my teenage years there. Then when I was 23 years old, I moved to Los Angeles, and now I'm in London. Just working my way around the world.

Kathmandu to LA is a long way.

It is. Even Adelaide to LA is a long way.

Were your parents living in Kathmandu?

Yes, they were. They were living in Kathmandu. I was born there in a very... Kathmandu in the '80s was not very developed. A lot of people lived like they lived hundreds of years ago. We didn't have electricity half the week. I think the only movies we had access to were Superman, Supergirl, Police Academy, and Hindi movies.

Well, that's all you need.

It was like another world.

Wow. What made you want to come to America and be an actor?

I was working in Australia, and at the time, there weren't a lot of opportunities there. I knew that if I wanted to keep working, I'd have to expand my horizons. I came to Los Angeles, just like many young, aspiring actors do. It was really exciting. I knew so little. I feel like if I knew how hard it was going to be, maybe I never would have done it. But that naivety was very helpful.

Totally. That's how I feel, too. If I knew at 18 how difficult or me or whatever, how difficult it would be or how long it would take. I don't know if I would do it.

Yeah. It's interesting because I grew up in the business, so I saw it, but I still didn't realize all the things that you have to deal with. As you know, Dejan, there's a lot of going out there, putting yourself out there and not getting the job, and you have to just keep going and believe in yourself. And I imagine for you coming all that way, that was probably something you had to deal with.

Yeah, I think we all to go through it. It's interesting, Ben, to hear you say that because someone who doesn't know you or hasn't had the chance to speak to you about it might assume that it was an easier path or something, but it never is. I think everyone's journey is up and down, and that's what makes it so beautiful because we get to have that contrast of the rejection and the highs of the wins. Everybody started somewhere. Yeah.

You're so great in the show, Dechen. Unbelievable. Yeah. Obviously, this episode is just an incredibly special episode. I remember we talked to Brit about her audition for the show. And similar to you, she sent in a self tape, which is at home, you just make a tape yourself of the scene and you send it in. You sent in just a really incredibly well done self tape of Ms. Casey Can you tell me a little bit about how you put that together? Because I remember watching it and it was stunning. You just seemed so otherworldly and it was so well-produced, and the lighting was amazing. How did you do that?

Thank you for noticing. To go back to the whole journey of being an actor, many years ago, I realized that so much of this business is out of our control. It's not really a competition because it's just like There's just a person who's right for the part, and 99% of the time, it's not going to be you. It's such a frustrating thing that we all know what that feels like to have a million nos. I think I got to a point where I wasn't even feeling like I was being able to be creative. I guess I just decided, okay, I can't control whether I get the job or not. But when things moving to taping, which I would often push for. I was like, this is my opportunity to be creative. This is my opportunity to... I learned how to use a camera. I learned a little bit about lighting. I got the best microphones I could. I just decided that any tape I sent out, whether I got it or not, I wanted it to be a really great quality product and represent my commitment to my work and my creativity, especially Especially when you get something so wild like this.

When I got those sides, I had absolutely no context. It was like, What is this woman saying and why is she saying it like this? But it was an opportunity to be creative and get into my imagination. Max, my husband and I, we do it for each other now, and I'll go handheld, I'll learn the lines for him, and we'll get the bounce boards out. It's like we're working. It feels like we're working, which is sometimes you're going to get to do that.

Did you know right away from the very start that Ms. Casey was also Gemma, or did that come later?

No. Ben and I got on a Skype call. Ben, do you remember you told me on the Skype call that Gemma was Miss Casey. I had no idea because I hadn't read anything.

Yeah. I mean, it was obviously very early on. I mean, that concept at that time, we knew where it was going, but it was still a concept. We hadn't written all the scenes. This was very early on. But watching you read Miss Casey, I was just like, I felt like there was... I can't even honestly, and this is no insult to other people who read for that role, but it's hard for me to remember other people who read for the role because when I saw what you were doing, it's like, okay, that's the person for this role. I want to ask you about this episode because when you read it, this is the episode where we learned so much. What was your feeling when you first read I was like, wow, this is a lot of pressure.

I can't let anybody down. Well, because it's- Sure, right.

I know. That's an honest answer.

Yeah, it's daunting. I mean, the whole thing is you.

But also the build-up to Gemma and the audience getting to know her and everyone seeing what Mark had that he lost. When I read it, I was extremely excited to be involved much more with you guys and to be able to collaborate with you all more. But I was also like, Don't mess this up.

Well, I was excited because I knew from working with you and Season 1. First of all, even finding the look for Miss Casey, I remember how proactive you were. We were talking about this with Gwendoline Christie, how an actor can really just take ownership of a role and come in with ideas. You came in with so many ideas. I remember you had the Miss Casey wig.

I did, yeah. Ben was the hair. He was concerned about my hair.

Surprise, surprise. Obsessed with the hair.

But I totally get it because it's such a specific world. It really does matter on a show like this. Most shows, it probably doesn't matter that much. But on this show, it is super important. I bought all these different wigs, and then I was I was on set for something else, and I borrowed some of their wigs, and I took photos, and I made a whole PDF just so Ben could be like, Is it brown hair? Is it red hair? Is it black hair? What is it? Then you responded to the- It was so great.

No, she came in and she put the wig on and modeled the wig and said, What do you think of this? It was like, Oh, man, this person is just so into it. I just really appreciated that. Then I remember we were shooting your scene in the hallway, I I think it was 108, where Milchick sends you back down the hallway. And that's this first hint that we really are feeling that there's something inside Ms. Casey, this sadness.

Yeah, there's something so... Because you could see how a character like that could be like one note or an inch deep in one way or the other. But your Ms. Casey is so deeply felt and such a whole person that you get the feeling that there is someone in there just aching to get out, always trying to find her spot. And it's so sad, but also just so interesting. How did you approach her in particular? Because there's something childlike about her, but it's more than that, too.

Yeah, I feel like she was curious. Also now in Seven, you see that in those other rooms, she's isolated basically with Dr. Mauer. I think it worked out in a way because that curiosity being with the group and how she so enjoyed being in that space with them. I felt like her face, like sit differently to all the other characters. It was this longing for a connection. I think Ben, I don't know if you remember, but we were on a call. I think it was about my hair, but we also ended up talking about the character. I don't think so.

It must have been something else, but go ahead.

I was She's like a dough. I worked with that animal. Ben, really, you helped me build this character. Dan, you guys led me through that.

Right.

All right. It's time for us to take a quick break, and we'll be right back.

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You talked about going from room to room in the episode, and we see Gemma down there, and we see that she's being basically ushered into these different rooms where she's severed into a different persona, and something is done to her by Dr. Mauer in some different outfit and character or disguise by the great Robbie Benson, who's one of my favorite actors. Why don't we listen to a clip from when you're in the Christmas Room with Dr. Mauer?

How much longer do I have to do this?

I told you, you're done. But Christmas has a funny way of coming back around each year.

It's always Christmas.

Oh, man.

A holiday classic, that scene.

It's so awful for her. It's just her entire life is Christmas with this dude.

What a bummer.

I really have to say the tension between the two of you. He obviously has an attachment to his subject, and the way that you play those scenes together, it was just a very potent dynamic that was under the surface. You had to go through so much in that episode because we learned that you're down there and you've been down there for a number of years. Obviously, you're trying to get out, too. But how was it playing those scenes?

I mean, it was incredible. Jess was really... She really wanted to explore her being a defiant teenager. She's so incredibly talented.

Yeah. Jessica is an amazing artist as a cinematographer and now as a director. She was also shooting the episode. She was the ERP on that episode. Was that an interesting process for you working with her in both capacities?

Yeah, it was great. I loved how loose she was with like, Oh, let's just do it this way. She really knows how to just push forward. I think maybe it's from her experience working a lot in the independent film space. Sometimes you can work with people who are very regimened within a studio structure or whatever, but I never felt like that on this show ever. There's It just seemed to be so much time to explore and experiment. Ben, obviously, she's worked with you a number of times. I think her directing style, I feel like she's learned a lot from you because she just really wanted to, like you do, try lots of different things.

I'd say it's the other way around, but that's it.

Oh, yeah. Okay. Or the other way around. She taught you. She taught you.

The other aspect of the episode, I want to ask both of you guys about this is that we get to see the meeting of Mark and Gemma juxtaposed with the captivity on the testing floor, we're seeing the beginning and development of Mark and Gemma's marriage and the things that happen in the beginning, the first blush of connecting, which why don't we take a look at that, too, the first time you guys meet?

What do you got there? Sorry, what do you got there?

Themes of religious conversion And in Tolsoy's The Death of Ivan Ilyich.

Oh my God, spoiler alert, please. What about you? Are you reading? Me? Well, yeah, this is a real treat. All quiet on the Western blunt. Drug use by enlisted soldiers during World War I. Now, stop. No, that's what it is.

It's a genius. You should flunk every other child.

I couldn't agree more. I'm sorry, who are you?

Chama.

I thought you guys did a really good job of creating a very real relationship. How was it for you guys, and Adam, I'm curious to start asking you, how was it for you to create that relationship, and how did you guys go about that with Jessica?

Well, it was really fun and really informative, too, because it's such a huge part of Audi Mark's life, this loss. And up to this point, it had just all been in my imagination just trying to fill that in. Getting to actually build it with Degen and Jess was great. But what I love about it, what I loved about doing it is like other things on the show, like you were saying, we found the tone and the characters together. And part of finding that together is we get microspecific about all of it. And we need to because it's not the writing. It's not like Dan writes in a way where it's like, well, I used to be a teacher, and I'm not anymore because of this, this, and this. It's not expo-heavy dialog So we as a team want to build everything as specific and big and complete as possible and then decide how much of it we're showing. And so this relationship, it was really important to build exactly what it was. Then in these scenes, we got to see these nice little glimpses. And I think just building such a complete relationship in such a complete world, we could do these little flashes and get what felt like a complete picture.

You and had to go through so much in terms of the miscarriage and incredibly emotional, sensitive stuff, and then also showing the great times in the marriage. It was all shot within, I don't know, five days. How do you prepare as an actor to do that because you did a great job with it. Oh, gosh.

To me, it wasn't so difficult as much as it was exhilarating and fun. Ben, when you came that day, or a couple of days actually, with that little camera. I don't know what it's called.

Yeah, the Bolex, a 16 millimeter Bolex. Yeah, the Bolex.

That was so much fun to just go and get random things. Adam, remember we had a little-A picnic. Yeah, we had a… Just between setups, we would run out with Ben, and Ben had the camera, and he was on his knees in the mud, and I was like, Oh, my God. Well, it was like spring was just starting, and it was sunny, and flowers were blooming.

So we got a bunch of that stuff.

It was That was great. Yeah, Jessica, she flipped the script on me and had me be a little second unit DP, and she'd give me the bolex to shoot you guys smelling flowers.

It was like Bendo, but with a 16 millimeter camera.

And more successful, I think, than Bendo. A lot of it made it into the cut. I was really...

I was like, well... Yeah, and it looks great, too. Bendo did a really good job. I will say, because you won't do, Chen, that watching you go through everything you had to go through for this episode and just the parts I was in because all the testing floor stuff, that's a whole other chapter that is unbelievable that you went through all of that. But the stuff we were doing, I felt like my job in that episode was just to support you and make sure you were as comfortable as possible because of all the emotional and physical strain you had to go through to hit these, because we're encapsulating a period of years into one episode of TV. So you had to really hit these highs and lows, and sometimes within the span of a couple of hours, we're doing the miscarriage scene in the shower, and then we're downstairs doing something super happy together. It was a lot. And you were just hitting bullseyes and nothing but.

I couldn't have done it without all of that incredible support. But it was extremely challenging, but I feel like it was the most fun I had just because those parts of the episode where it's less of a flashback, more going into the minds of these characters. It was just so much looser and free. It was something that was just a little less oppressing like those hallways, which I don't know how you guys make hallways so interesting to look at. It's incredible how beautiful the show is.

Well, the testing floor hallways are oppressive and white, but different.

Yeah, they are. That was our big new set for the season, really. And Jeremy Hindle and Jessica really got involved in that, and we knew we wanted to do something that wasn't... We didn't want to do a different color. We obviously thought about that, but we were thinking just what is the world down there? What's the texture? Is it... At one point we thought that might even be more dilapidated, but then it didn't make sense for really what they were doing down there. Then we came up with a scale that was a little bit bigger and different kinds of angles. But really, that's all credit to Jessica and to Jeremy. I remember that set was there for a long time before we shot it, and we were looking forward to it. Yeah. All right. We've been asking fans to call in with questions. We've been getting a lot of questions, and we got a few questions that we would like your help answering, Dechen. Okay? Okay. Here we go. This Hotline segment, by the way, is sponsored by Confluence by Atlassian, the connected workspace where teams can create, organize, and deliver work like never before.

Set knowledge free with Confluence.

Dechen, I'm so sorry. Ben just does that from time to time. He breaks into just saying things are sponsored by other things.

They are sponsoring us, though.

They are, actually. But he does do that.

I would probably say it if they weren't sponsoring us, too.

All right, let's get some hotline knowledge.

Hey, this is Zoe.

I was a freshman when Season 1 came out, and now I'm a senior, so I've been applying to colleges. It's making me really wonder what person applies to Gans College in here where Mark and Gemma taught. It looks pretty desolate, but maybe it's got this really low acceptance rate and it's super exclusive.

Should I apply?

Interesting. It's a good question.

I would say go for it.

It sounds like Zoe was basing her question on previous peaks into Gans College, which was mostly at night when no one was there. I think in this episode in seven, we're seeing it as this colorful, bustling school.

Yeah, it's not super colorful. It's muted colors.

That's what I meant, muted colors.

Yeah, but it's more colors than last time we saw it. Actually, the location is it's Nassau Community College in Long Island, and they have this really interesting '70s concrete brutalist style architecture. It's pretty cool.

It is cool. We spent a lot of time there.

Deeshan, yeah, you're working on a short story analysis in that episode?

Oh, when he comes into the office? Yeah. That's right.

Hajim Marat. Yeah. That's when you come in with the ant farm. Yeah.

Which is a mistake. That was functioning, wasn't it? There were ants in there.

There were ants in there.

There were ants in there.

I loved shooting the first scene, our blood donation scene. That was super fun. The lumen blood donation scene.

Your beard was incredible.

Yeah, that's Judy.

But it was painstaking, right, to put that on?

Because Beards are really difficult. And Judy Chin is unbelievable. And she was able to create a beard that looks real, highly uncomfortable to have on your face, but looks real.

Even not just on I feel like in person, I actually thought that was your beard. Yeah. Judy is the best. She did such an amazing, amazing job.

Did she do your beard today? Because it looks amazing.

She did. Thank you. Judy, could you come in? Just do a touch up real quick.

She just does it for you every day.

Okay. Okay, we got one more hotline question for you. Hi, my name's Grace. My question is, if your Annie had a wellness session with Ms..

Casey, what facts would you want them to know about your Audi? Thanks.

Oh, my gosh. If my innie... I had to process this. If my innie was having a session, but isn't my innie... I've got so many innies, right?

Yeah. What would you want one of your INI to know about you, Deja?

All right. I guess what I was allergic to. That would be important because- That's practical. That's sensible. It's practical because in England, every time you go to a restaurant, they're like, Any allergies?

It's really funny that waiters love is if you're at a seafood restaurant and they ask that question, you say, I'm actually allergic to seafood. Or if it's a hamburger restaurant, you say you're allergic to hamburgers.

They love it. Oh, my gosh.

Thank you to Joey, thank you to Grace for calling in. And remember, if you want to call the post box for Lumen Industry's Severed Floor, you can call 212-830-3816.

Dechen, thanks for joining us. It's good to see you.

Dechen, thank you. Thank you for having me. Congratulations, guys, on an amazing season 2.

Congratulations to you. Unbelievable work. All right, let's break down the episode. A lot of questions start getting answered. Should we listen to our first peek into the testing floor?

Yes.

You've eaten today, honey? Yes.

Done your reading?

Fifty pages.

Calisthenics? Yes. If you were caught in a mudslide, would you be more afraid of suffocating or drowning?

Drowning.

If you were caught in a mudslide, Adam, what would you be more afraid of.

Well, I feel like drowning and suffocating are one in the same.

Yeah, I feel like I would be afraid of choking on the mud. So more like that would be suffocating.

Yeah, I guess I would first just say neither sounds great. No. But if Sandra Bernhardt was asking me that question, I'd be like, I don't know. What do you think? Because she's so fun. Sandra Bernhardt's character is named Cécile.

Yes, Cécile. Let's talk about Sandra Bernhardt. I've been a fan of hers since she came on the scene, and she was amazing in King of Comedy. Oh, my God. She had this breakout performance in this Robert De Niro, Martin Scorsese movie, which is one of my favorite.

Me, too.

Of the De Niro Scorsese Ouvre. She is just a brilliant stand-up comedian, and I have known her over the years a little bit. It was so fun to see her in this role because she is so funny and she can be so crazy and out there. It's just very unique energy. But it's always fun to see somebody like that when they're putting a lid on it. There's just so much going on behind her eyes.

So much going on with Sandra in this role. It's so great.

Yeah. It was really It was fun to really get to spend some time with her when she was working on the show. That scene is, yeah, setting up this world of the testing floor, this new environment. Obviously, anytime we have a new space on the show, new characters, it's always something we're trepidaciously going into and wanting to figure out how to make it feel right with the tone of the show.

You're worried about timing, I'm sure, as well. When in the season, you're exposing the audience to all of these Yeah, I think overall, this episode, there was for us a feeling of like, okay, we know that we have to tell this part of the story, and we want to try to do it in a way that feels organic and exciting.

But it's always a little bit... When you step off of the severed floor, it's always a little scary.

Yeah, for sure.

But I thought Deachin and Sandra were so great together. And of course, I just have to say, Robbie Benson-Who plays Dr. Mauer?

Yes.

So good, so good in the show. I've been a fan of Robbie's also for a long, long time. He's been an actor and a director and writer, and he was very famous as a young man making movies in the '70s. He made a movie called One on One, which is about a young kid who gets recruited to a college to play basketball and gets cut from the team and has to work his way back onto the team. That's one of my favorite movies of all time that he wrote. Wow. Yeah, and started. He's got one of the most incredible voices.

Yeah, he does. He's the beast. He's the beast. That's right.

Yes. He's the voice of the Beast and Beauty and the Beast. He's a great director.

Directed many episodes of Friends. Yes.

Then on top of that, just really the sweetest person I've ever worked with. Really nice die. It's been a long process making this show, the second season. The first thing we shot with Robbie was in episode 5 and then episode 7. It was just over the course of a long time between those two episodes. Oh, It was months and months, and the strike happened. He was always connected and always there and always engaged. I love his interrogation scene with Gemma, where he's asking her what she remembers and what she doesn't remember. How many rooms did you What is it today? Six. The Billings Room, the Lachna Room, St. Pierre, Karen's, Zurich, and?

The Wellington Room.

The Bellington. Excellent. And what happened in the rooms? You remember nothing?

Nothing.

His voice is both so soothing and also so scary at the same time. I love seeing his attachment to Gemma grow over these scenes and shift depending on which version of her he's getting.

In some, he feels like he can be more open about his feelings, like in the Christmas scene, for instance. And in some, he feels he needs to be more of an authority figure. He's yearning for something with her that is deeply unhealthy, but also not easy to put your finger on what it is he wants from her.

It's scary. And the looks he has in the episode are just... I mean, the flight attendant look is like, I don't know. That just gets me. Then there's the trainer, the physical trainer that when we see him in the room with Drummond where they're watching, and he's obviously in some 70s tracksuit, and he looks like he's just come out of, I don't know, like the movie Munich or something.

Yeah, or Rollerball or something.

Yeah. And he has these incredible piercing blue eyes. Yes. Let's take a listen to the first time we see him on the testing floor, because we get a little glimpse of him, but we don't get to see his face in episode five, but on the testing floor, the first time we meet him.

Still a total babe.

There she is.

Could I please get a break just for a little while?

But it's been six weeks. I was just here. I know. Nobody likes the dentist. I should have been an accountant like my mom wanted. Please have a seat.

Oh, my God.

Yeah. Here we see him as a dentist who obviously is a fan of Gordon Lightfoot.

Yeah, humming that song.

Yeah, Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald, one of my favorite songs of all time. Is it? Yes, a big Gordon Lightfoot fan. Then we get to also see in this episode when we come down through that center post of the MDR cubicle and come out, follow the wires, this crazy shot that Jessica designed and worked on for a long time. And we see that he says the severance barrier is holding.

Yeah, that's super interesting.

Yeah. And we see the names of these rooms like Allentown, Cairns, Drainseville.

And these are names we've been seeing over the course of the last season and a half pop up on the computers.

Yeah, on the Rolodex for the file names, which I don't know. I wonder if anybody watching the show noticed that.

Do you think? I don't know. That's a good question.

I'm going to guess that-I don't know. Yet the people who watch our show did notice that. Maybe. Anyway.

So Gemma tries to escape? Yes.

I want to go home. And when the now is new.

Your husband remarried last year, and he has a daughter now. I don't believe you. You've been gone a long time, Gemma. He's moved on. Maybe you've moved on, too. In one of the rooms, what do you think? Do you feel yourself gravitating towards one room or another? Maybe you felt things behind those doors you never felt with Mark. Maybe I've seen it. The death of Ivan Ilyich. Let me guess. He dies It's at the end. This is a great sequence that Jessica did in one shot after she knocks Mauer on the head. Then she goes out into the hallway. This is, again, this question of what happens when somebody tries to leave or escape. And the ultimate thing that's keeping her there is that she's going to sever into Ms. Casey. Yeah.

She's home free, essentially, and then she turns into Ms. Casey.

And I think Jessica just did such an elegant with that shot when she comes out of the hallway, which is basically one shot that takes her through the hallway in the dark. It was just really beautifully done shot that Jessica did on a dolly. It's not a Steadicam shot, and it's a pretty long involved shot that was a real dance between her and Deachin.

Also Teddy's music in here is perfect and really compliments the shot.

Then that moment, too, when she comes back down and she just has this emotional moment in the elevator where she's been foiled rebelled again, and you just see Sandra's hand come into the frame, and it's almost in a way sympathetic because it's not like she's forcing her there with any physical way. It's just like this is the reality that she's stuck with.

It's really rough. The relationship between Deechan and Sandra is interesting, too, because like you said, there is some sympathy there. They know each other, but ultimately, Sandra is her captain.

Yeah.

All right, we're going to take a quick break, and then I'll be back to talk with the director of this episode, Jessica Lee Ganier. The MDR team continues to search for answers as they try to piece together stories from the overtime contingency. But luckily, you don't have to take a mind-erasing elevator to work every day. So your workplace productivity can be much simpler with Confluence by Atlassian. Confluence is the connected workspace where teams can collaborate create like never before, where teams have easy access to the relevant pages and resources their projects call for while discovering important contexts they didn't even know they needed. A space where AI streamlines the things that normally eat up their time, letting teams generate organize and deliver work faster. In fact, with Confluence, teams can see a 5. 2% average boost in productivity in one year. So goodbye, Severed workplace alienation. Hello, teamwork with Confluence. Set knowledge free with Confluence. Learn more at atlassian. Com/confluence. That's atlassian. Com/confluencie. Com/confluencie. This message is brought to you by Apple Pay. We all know that our credit card numbers can be stolen, but you know it's harder to steal: your face.

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It feels like we're filming right now. It looks like you're zoomed up. It looks like it's lit.

It looks like it's lit by me.

Yeah, it looks like it's lit by It's very...

It's like molebeams.

Yeah, molebeams, which you love. Tell people what a molebeam is.

A molebeam? It's a type of light we use in film for lighting. It's tongue-stun, so it's very warm. And to me, it's the light that most looks like the real sun. I love using it because it looks real.

Right. You use them actually a lot in episode seven. But first of all, I just want to say I'm thrilled to be joined by the director of this episode, the brilliant Jessica Lee Ganier. Thank you for being here, Jessica.

No, Thanks, Ben.

You and I have worked together for a while, but just to let people know you've been the cinematographer on Severance from the beginning and have shot the majority of the episodes. I also want to talk a little bit about how you approach the episode as a director, a first-time director. But maybe we should talk first about how we started working together just because we've been working together for about... Is it coming up on eight or nine years now? Eight years, maybe?

I think it's at least seven. We're at seven. Yeah.

Everything all of a sudden becomes 10 years very quickly these days.

I see everything in cycles of seven years, though.

Right. Well, then we're at the end of our first seven-year cycle. But we met when I was directing Escape at Danamora, which was a limited series that I was looking for a cinematologist photographer for and happened upon your work in a really wonderful movie called Sweet Virginia. That was a noir thriller that took place in the Pacific Northwest and reached out to you and we met up. I feel like for For me, it was fateful because we started working together a lot and we had a real creative bond. What did you think when we first started talking about doing Escape at Danamara?

I don't know if I ever told you this, but you speak about fate, and I definitely believe in certain things being timed and fateful. But when I got the email from the producer about this, I cried because I knew it was going to happen. The moment I read the email, it's like my life flashed before me, and I was like, This is going to be amazing.

Well, this is a whole other thing about you that I don't know how much we want to get into it, but you are very perceptive to the point of you have, I think, a connection with other vibes that are beyond the literal and in our day-to-day life, you feel things.

Yeah. It's weird because it relates to Seven a little bit. People ask me why Seven, and to me right now, I think it's like Seven found me in a way. I feel like that about Severance. I think Severance It found you, and it found Dan, and it found the right people to make it, and this weird... It's this weird force that moves at its own pace.

Yeah. Well, when we started working together, we hadn't known each other at all and delved into this eight-hour limited series. I was taken with your work because it felt very filmic. You're growing up in Montreal and watching movies. You worked at your dad's video store. I'm wondering what you watched growing up that inspired you.

I watched so many different things. I did work for my father in his video stores, plural. He had many of them. I used to actually work with him sometimes in the summers and travel with him in his truck because he was also a distributor. So he would bring movies to small grocery stores or little stores in little towns, and we would go in there and switch up their VHSs, bring them the new stuff, and crazy interesting little life journey there.

But just already, it's a little anachronistic because you're of an age when you were a kid, people were switching over to at least to DVDs at that point.

I saw the transition from VHS to DVD. I really lived that, and I saw how that impacted that industry. But one thing that's really interesting that I see inter-generationally between my father and I is, here I am now shooting for Apple and Netflix or whatever, all of these streaming services. My father doesn't have any of these services and still, I think, feels how they impacted his business. I'm going into that next generation, which is interesting, that always has stayed with me.

Did he make a conscious choice to keep the video store open in the face of the changing world?

It survived because of the culture of Quebec in a way. I started a documentary that I never finished, but maybe one day I'll finish it about these last video stores, because I believe they were probably some of the last video stores in the world, or at least in North America. They survived because they were in regional areas. In Quebec, it took a long time before Netflix really introduced French content or or those streaming services did that. And there's also regions that internet is actually really expensive. And it is the way that people get together is going to the video store and watching movies together. So for a long time in those regions, it was... I think the stores closed one or two years ago now, the last one. But they were still functioning.

That's a long time to keep going in this day and age. But would you take the movies off the shelf and go home and watch them?

All the time. I always had a box of VHSs at my house. And some mornings before school, I would start a movie, and then I'd come after school and I'd finish the movie because I wouldn't have time in the morning to watch the whole thing. My dad would bring us to the movies several times a week when we were kids. We're watching American movies, mostly. I grew up watching American films, even more than French-Canadian films. It's when I started going to school in film production, that's when I really got into more international filmmaking. My mom also pushed me into that because she introduced me to foreign language films and things like that.

Who are the filmmakers that you loved that made you say, I want to do this?

Well, the first First film that made me realize what filmmaking could be, I think, was City of God by Fernando Meireis. That movie, it blew my mind. I loved American films growing up and was watching things like Little Shop of Horrors and all those things. But when I saw City of God, I was like, Okay, you can create something on a whole other level. And that really fascinated me. But then I went through several phases, and I think the films that brought us together are the ones that really define the esthetic that I gravitate to the most. And those are those American '70s pictures that we bonded over Serpico and Dog Day Afternoon. For me, Clute is always a big one. I think any cinematographer tends to gravitate towards that film because to me, it's almost like cinematography perfection. For me, I gravitate towards a heightened realism style, and I think that's what spoke to you a little bit. It's a very gritty style, but at the same time, it's really esthetic and it's really specific, which I think resonated with you. It's like it's intentional.

Yeah. And I feel like when we went from Dan Amora, which was very much '70s-inspired for the vibe of it, even though it took place in present day, when we went into Severance, there was also a similar influence that was from a very different genre And I feel like I don't even remember how we started to develop this look, but we'd already worked together, so we rolled into it. I know with you, it's always imagery is a big part of it and saying, Hey, check out this photographer. Let's look at these pictures. Let's look at maybe Let's look at this movie. Let's look at this movie you've never heard of. I remember when we did Dan Amara, you showed me a Tarkovski's movie, Stalker, and it blew my mind. And of course, I'd heard of Tarkovski, but I'd never watched, and you opened me up to Yeah, that was fun because I feel like when you see these things for the first time, it's magical, the experience of seeing something like Stalker.

And I do work with a lot of images. My intention, usually with directors, is to just make sure we're speaking the same language. So the The easiest way to do that is photography and references. Photography is very fast, and I can just make sure, Okay, this we like. Okay, great. You like this? Okay, great. I know I can go there. To me, the most important thing is that when we're on set, you don't have to stress about the cinematography that you can let go. I always say that you could be your own cinematographer. But I'm very serious about that. I heard that in 6, you were talking about you and the camera fault. I fell over.

I'm breaking Adam. That was your fault because you encouraged me to operate the camera.

I just think you're a great operator. Not when you have to do really complicated camera operating, but maybe the air mattress threw you off.

You're being so much nicer to me on this podcast than you are in real life about my operating.

Here's the thing. We can also talk about how focused I am on set. I'm so curious to hear an actor's perspective also about how I get really in a flow state and in tunnel vision, and sometimes it gets the best of me. But I learned a lot throughout this process.

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting on episode seven, which we can get into talking about, you also acted as your own cinematographer. How did that go for you? Because I felt from my perspective, watching you do your thing, it was seamless in that it was just an extension of you being able to express what you wanted to express.

I DPed the any part of the episode.

You brought in Max Goldman for the film portion of the Gemma and Mark story.

Yeah, I think I have to just go back to the decision of shooting my own episode. Why did I allow myself to do that? A lot of people asked me, Are you sure you can handle this? It's the first time you're directing. Do you actually really want to shoot it? I knew where it would become a problem, and that was going to be these flashbacks. I needed someone else. It was also interesting to work with someone who had a new eye as well because it's a new world. All of that, I thought, made a lot of sense. Working with Max was great. But working with myself was very weird. I did not understand what it really meant, but there was this one moment on set, and I had this feeling of everything's moving so fast. Everything's happening really, really fast, and I don't feel like I can breathe. And I realized at that moment, I was standing in Gemma's suite, and I realized that conversation that happens between a cinematographer and a director wasn't happening for me. And that was giving me anxiety. At one point, I looked at Sam Ivoy, our script supervisor, and I'm like, Sam, I'm going to talk to you like you're my cinematographer.

I'm sorry. I need that time because I needed to breathe, and I needed to know that it was okay. Because that relationship is important.

It is very lonely directing, I mind because ultimately, it's a subjective choice that you're making and you can look around to everybody, but at the end of the day, it's your choice. I found working with you, you always gave me a lot of confidence as a director to take a chance, but you didn't have that for yourself. Except every once in a while, I'd pop over, but you had me shooting second unit, which I was.

Yeah, and those shots came in handy. They say it does. Yeah, the Bolex.

But what was your idea in terms of just the shooting on film for the flashbacks, which is something we hadn't done before on the show?

What was your thinking on that?

Well, the thought about shooting it on film, to me, it's funny because originally I am the cinematographer of this show. When it comes to choosing cameras and lenses, I'm a huge part of that process. I'll show you different things, and then I'll see how you react from them, and then ultimately we're making this decision. But we had chosen not to shoot on film. And I don't know if you remember, I was always adamant that I never thought Severance It should be shot on film.

I wanted to shoot on film.

Yeah. So many directors want to shoot on film. I understand that. And so many DPRs do as well. But then when this idea of flashbacks came up, I was like, oh, crap. I'm the one who has to bring up the fact that I think this should be shot on film. Now I get to be that person. But I don't like in post adding a look to something to make it look like a flashback. I was like, what's the most natural and simple way to do this? And basically, shooting on film evokes nostalgia right away now for us and for where we are in society now. So I was like, well, this is the simple answer. Let's try and do this. And then we ended up doing it.

And by the way, the house, can we talk about the house? The house was the house that Jessica was renting in New York while she was making Severance that Jeremy Handel, our production designer, and you decided, Oh, what about your house to shoot Mark and Gema?

Doing what people say you never... Any filmmaker will say, No one will ever get to shoot in my house. You don't let anyone touch your house.

No, of course, because it's people carrying equipment and sitting down and crews. Everybody tries their best, but you don't want to do that.

But this house was made for it. Do you know about how it happened originally? I was describing what I thought this place... I I thought it was an apartment at first. I was like, Oh, I think they should live in an apartment with moldings, and there's libraries, and that's an old place, and it has the time is on the walls. I'm talking about this space. Jeremy had been to the house I was living in, which is an amazing, beautiful home. I was renting it. He was like, You realize, Jessica, we're going to be shooting this in your house. And I was like, Oh. I had never thought about it. I just was speechless for a minute. I'm like, Oh, my God, he's right. He's We're shooting this in this house.

Yeah, it's pretty amazing because it was also at the very end of our shoot. I think we had, well, it was like 186 day shoot this season. It was at the very end and spring was coming and the leaves were on the trees. Intentionally, it's one of the only scenes you'll see in the show that has green trees in it because it's a different time. The feeling was it was a stripped-down crew to a certain amount, and it was just a different approach for that week shooting. And you just made, I thought, some really amazing, beautiful choices in that house. Those scenes in the kitchen or her sitting alone or Adam with the crib, trying to break the crib down or the scene in the bathroom where she's going through that really tough time was just so sensitively and beautifully shot and felt to me like moments from, could be from a Bergman film or something like that. I mean, it had that feeling of that starkness and that beauty and gives this unique quality that was very important because this is the only time we're ever really seeing Mark and Gemma's relationship in the past.

Yeah, and the show, I feel, you tell me if you feel this way, but I feel like we are seeing the show through the perspective or the way Mark's character views life is the visual tone of this show. In the timeline where we are when we're in this story, we're living it with him in a way. Now we're in season 2. What's amazing is we get to go out broader and we see other people's perspective, but it does taint the whole show. This was a moment where it's like, Okay, this is before the decision to sever. So this is life before. What did life feel like? How do we evoke that? There were so many things, every department brought something special where it's just the plants, the colors, the lighting. Everything was tweaked in a different world. We introduced things that we had never really done in severance, but that was intentional. The meaning was just to evoke a completely different feeling.

Yeah, in a different time. I also thought, just in terms of visual storytelling, how you blocked and came up with even the scene where Mark's sitting alone and the police come up. What a tough scene to have to figure out how to shoot because it's a scene we've seen a million times in movies and TV shows and not have it seem cheesy or cliché. The way that you did it with no dialog, just seeing the police taking their hats off, you know. I love that dissolve as he away. There's an outline of Mark's head, and you see the hallway and elevator with Gemma in it.

Yeah, the transitions were to evoke sometimes, transitioning from an emotional state to another. Sometimes the emotional states match, and sometimes they don't, depending on the transition. But this, specifically for both of them, there's this heart-dropping knowingness that happens for both of them. They're in different timelines, but they're shown at the same time.

That, to me, really connected them. What you did was they're in different timelines, but the whole idea in the episode is that you're watching Mark journeying, and Gemma is having these moments and these flashes and thinking about Mark, but you're connecting them visually, even though they're both separate. So it doesn't feel like a flashback per se. It feels like we're connecting both of them as people emotionally.

Yeah. There's a lot to say about that and about how we view life depending on the things that happen to us and how we choose to see things. And I think that this episode, for me, one of the reasons it found me is because I love all of these crazy things about consciousness and time and space. I'm a sucker for this stuff. And I was like, Oh, I get to explore this in a cinematic language. That, to me, I was like a kid in the candy store being able to do that because we have these three different timelines, and there was this idea of a whirlwind of things just all happening all at once. And I don't actually believe in the concept of time. I use it as a word in the English language, but to me, it's not really... It's relevant in my personal experience, in your personal experience, but you can see above it. In this episode, it showcases that, that everything is happening all at once. So we are constantly affected by everything. And in this moment, they join at the end of the episode in that emotion, in that vibration. And you see them move through space in this opposite way, that they're feeling the same feeling of having lost each other.

I sometimes would know things like that, but then also some of this was purely intuitive. And I feel like as filmmakers, that's what happens, right? You just try and follow your intuition and what feels site because it got really technical. And that was always one of my fears that I would not be a good director because I would be the technical one. It was something that was in my head for a long time, and I feared this. But then doing this episode, at first, I didn't think it was going to be as emotional as it was, and the writing kept getting more and more sensitive and more and more emotional. And I just stuck with it, even though I was really afraid of it. But I was actually able to go there, which surprised me. And I feel like that technical and emotional aspect together is also what makes seven strong.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's a combination of these visuals that are very technically crazy to pull off and also just this pure, simple emotion. The shot going down through the center console down to the testing floor, that was one of your little- Side projects? Side projects, as you call them.

Yeah, it was Scott Maguire's side project.

Scott McGuire is one One of our camera operators, a great camera operator.

Yeah. Everyone in the camera department participated in this shot in their own way. Mike Guthr is always a big part of technical development stuff with us as well. He was the AC on the other camera.

Can I just say that I feel like it was very important for you on that shot to start off of Gemma and start to go down, which was a crazy shot. I mean, we could get into the rain on Mark.

Shout out to Adam for that, though, because we were talking about really technical things and emotional things at the same time. Those two scenes were very strange to put back to back. There's a very sensitive scene about this miscarriage and then going into this scene in MDR. I remember there was questioning about that. Is that the right thing to do. But in my mind, it's like, that's life. You are sometimes living a moment in your life, and there's a part of you that's reliving a very traumatic experience at the same time.

Yeah. All of a sudden we're in this moment. But what you did visually was that you have the shower water coming down on her and Mark, and then we transitioned into Mark and MDR back from the scene from season one to connect that, those two thoughts. But what you did was you had the rain coming down, or I call it the rain, the shower water, and then you literally had a shower water set up in MDR because you and I think the show, we've always been focused on not wanting to do CG when we don't have to do CG stuff. You wanted to do the shot going down the center console for real. So that's a real shot. That's not like a CG wires and vortex, which was really crazy. But you had the film running backwards on Adam. So when you get into MDR, the rain is going up and he's getting dry, which is just like it's insane.

I had to explain that to Adam. And I think there's probably a point where Adam's like, I'm okay. He had to let go of the technical thing and do his own thing, I think, because it was so... I'm like, At the beginning of the shot, you are in MDR, and then you have to imagine that you end up in the shower with Gemma, but we're going to play it back in reverse in the edit. Then there's like, Rain and a bolt arm and all these things.

It looks insane. Reverse acting is hard for actors because you're asking somebody to imagine doing something backwards, and you understand theoretically what it is, but it's really, I think, hard for your mind to compute it.

Yeah, I felt bad almost asking Adam to do that. There was a part of me that was like, Why are we doing this? This is horrible to ask this.

He loves to do stuff. He's He's the most technical actor I know. He's so good at that stuff, though.

No, but thank God for him for that, because I feel like both of them were amazing technical actors, Deachin and Adam. I feel like for this episode, you needed that. You needed people who were like, I'm in it. Let's do it. I've got this. I can hit that. I can be there and then still perform at the same time. So it was quite challenging, but they both, I think, showed up brilliantly. Then being able to do these flashbacks, these memories, to me, I just want it to be as simple as possible to just let the story... The story tells itself. You just didn't want the technicality to get in the way of that part of the filmmaking. So we really stripped it down. Honest, if you look at it, it's shot, counter-shot. I wanted it to be really simple because of all the technical stuff we were doing. Right.

Okay, I want to talk about the testing floor because the testing floor was a new environment, and we knew that this was a big thing because we were going to finally go off of the severed floor. What was important to you about it for the episode?

We were questioning a lot at the beginning, should we do something very new something very different, or should it still be in the esthetic of Lumen? We were going down the route of keeping it in the Lumen esthetic. I think the only thing I knew very clearly, which was very much like a cinematographer thing, I knew I wanted it to be lit because the end sequence of her running away, I knew that I wanted it to be lit by this type of lighting. The floor lighting.

The floor lighting. Because we'd done the energy saver lighting on the top lights, but this floor lighting that you came up with is so great because it's just a totally different thing. The way you use it in that shot where you see the light, you hear the footsteps, but you don't see the person is very specific and I think really cool.

Yeah. So that like inched it in a direction. But then we wanted to do a set that was very confusing in its own way, and we had a very new language. We went with these diagonals and triangles, which is interesting, the triangle of Heli, Gemma, and Mark. But one thing that was a total synchronicity that we found out later with this set, and I think Jeremy and I, our minds were blown with this. And Souverance is a show that has been blessed with many, many synchronicities. But when we went back to that college, Gans College, which is Nassau Community College in New York, and when we went back there, we had to find an office. Then when we went to look at the offices that were available there in this big tower, we take the elevator and the doors open to this floor. This was after we knew we wanted to do a triangular set. But as soon as the doors open, Jeremy and I walk in and we have this moment where we look at each other and we're speechless again. All the angles were triangular in this building. So Gemma's office. I tried to show it in that one or shot of him coming out of the elevator, but it was very, very challenging optically to see it.

But those hallways are all based on a triangle form. That's when you know things are done right. And I think Jeremy's great at following his intuition and just seeing where things go. He's very open, like you, you guys both have a very similar process with that where you're just open-minded. For me, it's been a big lesson on severance and working with you in general is your open open-mindedness to seeing how things can move with their own force. Yeah.

I just would say for me on my end, that I feel the same thing with you that you have opened up for me, too, creatively, the willingness to take a chance with something and to go with your intuition for me is something that I've gotten from working with you.

I guess I'm not afraid of doing bold, bold, bold things, for sure. But when I don't have to own them, it's a lot easier. The biggest fear of directing is, well, have to own these choices. So it's very easy to comment on other directors as a cinematographer, as a critic. But the act of directing and putting something out in the world that you're signing is very courageous. I find, and I think is the most stressful thing about it. I have to learn to be okay with the fact that not everyone likes everything, and that's fine. But it definitely had been blocking me for a long time. And I feel like to get to that level of craftsmanship, you do have to be open to go there.

Right. So how was the experience of directing for you coming out of it? And will you ever be a cinematographer again or are you now just a director?

The experience was very scary. I didn't really want to do it at first. It's funny because you had asked me years ago, Hey, would you ever direct? And I was like, No, I would not do that. And then in my mind, I was like, But I feel like I'd be interested in something like Nolan-esque. I don't know why like that if I were to direct. And Then this came around and I realized that there would be no better opportunity for me to try this. I went through a lot of personal experiences and personal growth, and I realized that I needed to face this fear of mine. And there was just not a better place. Being supported by you in this environment, having a crew that knew me on a show that I knew and understood, knew the writers, there was just never going to be this. This was not going to happen again. So I'm like, Okay, we're going to do it and we're going to see what happens. But I felt very sick the first couple of weeks. I didn't feel good at all. I just moved through that feeling, and I tried to be as present as I could.

And you really helped me with actors. And I feel like you were slowly coaching me throughout the season. You're sometimes saying, You know with actors, this, this, and that. And I'm like, Okay, I'm holding on to that because I feel like he's trying to tell me something I need to...

And then you would just do the opposite of whatever I told you to do, right?

Not really, no. I feel like you helped me understand that it doesn't need to be complicated. It's really just about being present and accompanying them because they're going to find it. And Danais is just a little push in one way or another and exploring. I think the beauty of Severance is this show is there's room for exploration and there's room for intuition. I think it's what makes Severance, Severance.

I think you're right. I think you're right. Allowing space, even though there's not a lot of improvisation per se, script-wise, there's room for just things to happen and I have to say, I remember one day we were shooting on Danamora, and I yelled Cut after a scene. You came up to me and go, Why'd you yell Cut so soon? Do you remember that?

I do not remember that. You said, You yelled Cut too fast. I was like, What?

And then it's I was like, Maybe she's right. Then the next take, I let it go, and it just went on way too long, and the actress kept just acting. I was like, Oh, wow, stuff happens here that you would not have happened. I have to thank you for that because it just opened up so much for But throughout this whole answer, you still have evaded my question, which was, will you ever go back to just being a cinematographer ever? And I think, obviously, everybody wants you to be a director because you're really good. But what's your answer to that?

I've learned in my life to never say never, but I fell in love again with directing because I guess I had done it in film school. But it brought a new happiness for me that I I had lost, and it brought light to my life again, ironically. I think being a cinematographer is definitely part of my journey and will affect the type of director I'm becoming, but I'm just in love with it, and I have to just keep going. I'm afraid. I have no idea what's next, but I just want to move in this darkness and see what happens.

I think you should keep directing, for sure. It's great talking to you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

Man, that was really great. So glad you two got to talk about this episode. Jess, it's just such a terrific, terrific director. It's exciting thinking about her directing more in the future.

Yeah. Okay, before we go, there's one more thing we have to do, and this is something we're contractually obligated to do at this point.

Oh, okay. It's about that time.

It's time for us to check in with Zack Cherry and hear his prediction, in air quotes that I'm making about what he thinks will happen in episode 8. Here we go. All right, let's hear how spot on Zack Cherry is. Wow. Another exciting episode of Severance. Now, of course, I'm ready for my predictions, but I do just want to say I noticed last week, Adam, that you called this my favorite segment. This is not my favorite segment. This is the fan's favorite segment, the people, the nation's favorite segment. My favorite segment is the end of the podcast when I get to go home to my loving family. Now, I'll go ahead and get on with my predictions for the week. Next time on Severance. I can't believe we spent some time at the dentist. The dentist is my favorite part of being alive. So I predict that in the next episode of Severance, we go back to the dentist and see each character we've ever met on the show get their annual dental cleaning. Wow. Dental hygiene. It's so important. Call in and let Ben and Adam know how important dental hygiene is to you.

Why would we do that on the show?

Yeah, I mean, first of all- Why would we do that on the show? Yeah, obviously, don't do that, please. Yeah, Zack, I don't know if there's this layer of sarcasm or something. Do you think? When he says, Wow, it's so insincere. Yeah. And then he's saying he basically his favorite part of the whole thing is going home.

Yeah, that felt insulting.

And then he said that the nation's favorite segment was him. Yeah, that's ridiculous. Again, I just wonder, even let alone reading the scripts, whether he's watching episodes or if he's just maybe doing a couple of things at the same time, like he's scrolling through.

He's for sure doing like six things.

I think he's scrolling through his next fallout script on his phone while he's like side-eyeing catching what's going on on Severance.

I'm questioning his loyalty.

I'm questioning if there ever was any loyalty. I feel like- It's a good point. It's every man for himself with Zack. Sure is. You know what? It's great. He's lovable. He's lovable and cuddly, but there's something else there, too.

He's a very, very good baby. Okay, that is it for this episode, The Severance podcast with Ben and Adam. We'll be back next week to talk about Season 2, Episode 8.

You can stream every episode of Severance on Apple TV Plus with new episodes coming out every Friday.

Then make sure you're listening to our podcast, which drops right after the episode airs. The Severance podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is a presentation of Odyssey, Pineapple Street Studios, Red Hour Productions, and Great Scott Productions.

If you like the show, be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, The Odyssey app, or your other podcast platform of choice. Our executive producers are Barry Finkel, Henry Malowski, Gabriele Lewis, Jenner Weiss-Bermann, and Leah Reece Dennis. This show is produced Zandra Ellen, Ben Goldberg, and Naomi Scott. This episode was mixed and mastered by Chris Baisal. We had additional engineering from Javi Krustas and Davie Sumner.

Show clips are courtesy of Fifth Season. Music by Theodore Shapiro. Special thanks to the team at Odyssey, Maura Curran, Eric Dunnily, Michael LeVay, Melissa Wester, Matt Casey, Kate Rose, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Shuff.

And the team at Red Hour, John Lesher, Carolina Cusackab, John Pablo Antonetti, Martin Valderuten, Ashwin Ramesh, Maria Noto, John Baker, and Oliver Acker.

And at Great Scott, Kevin Cotter, Josh Martin, and Christie Smith at Rise Management.

We had additional production help from Kristen Torres and Melissa Slaater. I'm Ben Stiller.

And I'm Adam Scott.

Thanks for listening.

And remember, nothing says Christmas like grouting.

Or de-grouting.

Or de-grouting..