Transcript of S1E5: The Grim Barbarity Of Optics and Design (with Jen Tullock)

This episode of the Severance podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is brought to you by Confluence by Atlassian, the connected workspace where teams can create, organize, and deliver work like never before. Set knowledge free with Confluence. Hey, I'm Ben Stiller. I'm Adam Scott. And this is the Severance podcast with Ben and Adam, where we break down every episode of Severance.

Today, we're recapping Season 1, Episode 5, The Grim Barbarity of Optics and Design, written by Anna O'Yang Munch and directed by Efa McArdle. Ben, how have you been?

I'm It's been pretty good.

It's been at least, I don't know, 11 hours since we've seen each other.

In that time, the Knicks lost a game they should have won last night.

I'm so sorry. Now, what does that mean, they lost a game, that they should have won?

It means they lost a game they should have won.

Thank you for clearing that up.

They should have beaten. It was Utah, and they should have beaten Utah, and they're a better team. It didn't affect my mood or anything, though, last night. Oh, good.

I didn't notice. No, you know what? I've never seen the fate of the Knicks affect your mood at all, or maybe I just don't know.

Did you ever see me watching a Knicks game on set ever?

Yes, I did, actually. All right. Okay.

We'll edit that out, though. I scratch that.

Did I ever tell you that as a 16, 17-year-old, I was really into Spike Lee, and so I grew a goatee and wore a Knicks cap everywhere for a while? No, you did not tell me that. Not having As a teenager, followed basketball at all, nor did I once I started wearing the cap.

Wait a minute. The goatee was to be like Spike Lee? Yes. And the cap was to identify with the Knicks? Be like Spike Lee. Yeah, I got it. How did that How did it work out?

Well, not great. I'm sure it's offensive in one way or the other, but mostly it... Actually, there is a photo of me with the cast of Crimes of the Heart, the play that I was directing, and I was sure to wear the Nixcap, have the Goatey, and horn-rimmed glasses in the photo. We can cut all this out as well.

No, the image of Adam Scott trying to be Spike Lee.

Trying to be Spike Lee. Okay, well, today, we are lucky enough to be joined by the great Jen Tullock, who plays Devon on the show, my character's sister. So, Jen Tullock, welcome to The Pod.

Hey, guys. I'm sorry I'm late. It was just coming straight from a Utah celebration party. And let me tell you, the spirits were high. It was just great to be in a room where With winners, you know what I mean?

Which Utah team was that?

The Ball team. The Ball Sports. Ball Sports team.

All right. The Utah Ball Sports team.

That's a good team.

Jenn, you're awesome. It's great to see you.

Oh, you're awesome. It's great to see you guys, too. I've missed you.

What about me? Am I you guys? She said Jen. Oh, she got- No, I said yeah.

I was to Ben. Yeah.

Okay, so it was to Ben.

Yeah, just in the spirit of transparency. I don't want to set you up for disappointment here.

Great to see you, Jen. You're terrific.

Did you guys know each other at all before we started doing the show? No.

No.

That's so crazy.

We met, though, for the first time when we were coming out for the table read in March of 2020.

Yeah. What a wonderful time that was. We met in the very strange holding area that they take you to on a fancy plane, which It's not awkward at all if you've never spoken to someone. Luckily, Adam is lovely. I think there was politics up on the screen, and I remember very clearly immediately firing my mouth off because I was nervous and being like, I don't know what this guy thinks, halfway through. So immediately just telling you all of the ends and outs of my personal political beliefs.

Right.

As I recall, it was just a week or something before everything got locked down. Wasn't it? We were all together as if we were going to make the show, and then a few days later, everything was shut down. That was crazy because we all saw each other, and then we didn't see each other for a long, long time.

I have such a Pavlovian response now to the sound of the hand pumps of the hand sanitizer at the table read, because we didn't know. We were just everyone was doing their best, and it was like, okay, we'll elbow bump, and everyone will manically use this hand sanitizer. And then two days later, it was like, go home.

Yeah. It was everything was shut down.

It was wild. I think that shut down, though, really ended up helping us in the show in terms of having time to figure out stuff that we were still trying to figure out as we were rolling into production.

That's good to hear. It was such a wild time to get to know everybody as well. I told Adam this before, but we have a hug in one of our earlier scenes, at least one of the earlier scenes that we shot. We shot it, and then when we cut, I stepped away because I teared up because I realized I hadn't hugged anyone. It It was the first physical contact I had had in a very long time. Adam was like, Oh, great, this girl. But it was very sweet.

No. Yeah. And I feel like it was not knowing each other particularly well, but this Mark and Devon relationship clicked in really, really fast. It did.

Really, yeah, you guys were just on the same wavelength right away. Yeah. And I think that really, I remember when you guys read together, there was so much chemistry there. I didn't really know all about your background, Jen, but you're a writer and director. That's an amazing thing when you hire an actor who also is a creator in that way?

Well, thanks. I couldn't be in a cooler group of people. Also, I think to Adam's credit, that dynamic felt easy to develop quickly because he was so kind and warm and available. The first thing I shot, and you guys have been working for a couple of months, I think, when I came in, was the first time we see each other in the show, which was opening the door. Devon's knocking on the door. Was it? Yeah, I remember thinking how emblematic it was because you just between every take, I was totally the new kid, and you were very warm and asking me about my life. You also, I think, had just been very sick. And I thought it was especially nice that you were in the throes of a fever and still wanting to chat.

That's a really challenging thing for actors to have to do is to create a whole inner life and past history three, someone who's playing your sibling when you've just met them.

Yeah.

And you guys did that very well. And I think it's just because you guys were so attuned and so talented and so understanding of what that is to jump in. It's almost like as, I think, challenging as a love scene or something like that, too, because you're creating something that the audience really has to buy and believe. And so much of Devon and Mark's relationship is unspoken and is in the history and the language you have together. Yeah.

And I think that a lot of that, too. I don't know about you, Jen, but the writing was such that there wasn't that scene where it's like, well, since we're sister and brother and our parents died when we were three, there's an expository scenes that we all roll our eyes at that for an audience, I think is alienating, and you don't actually feel like you're watching siblings. In here, we had the room to develop this relationship, and we didn't have the responsibility of hitting all those expository beats so we could fill it with behavior. And I think that was more beneficial to us, but also to the show, and also being given that room by our directors.

Absolutely. I think Dan Erickson mentioned early on that he had, in some ways, based Evan on his own sister in his own relationship with his sister. I feel like you can feel that it isn't forced, which is great.

Yeah, I have a sister, and I realize that dialog, so much of it is when you're talking to a sibling, is just the love and the history and all that is just... You just take that for granted. So a lot of the back and forth is just quibbling about things or joking with each other about things, or getting annoyed with each other about things, but there's such a basis of trust and love because you're siblings, that's what you're talking about. Dan didn't worry about putting all that in the dialog. It was already there. So I felt like it was Dan and you two all came together to really we're just in sync metaphysically or something before you met.

You and Efa really helped us. You gave us the space to find that. It didn't feel rigid in any way. We had mile markers to meet. I think once we roasted each other once off camera, it was like, Oh, yeah, we're good. We're cruising.

I also remember thinking when I learned about what you do, Jen, just thinking, Oh, she's really smart and talented, and I hope she thinks this is good For some reason, I had that with you and Zack Cherry, too. This insecurity of like, I hope they like the show when they see it.

Well, sir, I was feeling the exact same thing the entire time. I was just We were both on our best behavior trying to press the other.

Oh my God, totally.

That's cool. Another thing with someone like Jen is that you can just completely relax, just like all the actors on our show were really lucky, but Jen is there to work. I just know I can completely relax because I know she is prepared and has thought about the thing from all the different angles. She just has that mind. You can just let go and jump in the scene together and not think about all of the exterior things. We can just connect and go. For another actor, at least, it's really something, a really relaxing great thing.

Likewise, my friend. Totally. Really. I feel very lucky.

Should we take a quick break here? And then when we come back, we'll jump into episode five. Sounds good.

Yeah, let's do it.

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Yeah, for sure.

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So episode 5 does not ease us in gently. It starts right where we left off in episode 4. Hélia has just attempted to hang herself in the elevator, which is really striking and horrifying to see.

Yeah, I actually watched this episode for the first time with Brit Lauer, who plays Ellie. I watched it at her house with a couple of friends and was sitting next to her on the couch watching that very intense scene. She was quiet, and I was freaking out internally because I can't imagine what it's like to watch herself do that. I think I was just dunking my sweaty palms into my popcorn bucket. It was hard to watch, but in a beautiful way. I think it's interesting that we see Mark's outie in, for a lack of a better term, a depressive episode. I mean, he's having a depressed experience. To see this happen as an act of defiance, I felt was an interesting counter to watching someone who is in despair, where we might associate that thing with the latter. And so it was, I don't want to say the act was cool, but how it was contextualized was really cool. It's one of my favorite episodes, the stuff around those heli-s scenes.

But is that interesting as an actor? Because I'm not great at watching myself. That's one of the things I really like about Severance is that I'm not in it. I get to enjoy the process of making it without having to look at myself. But you guys, you can appreciate it, right? You can. You can appreciate what you do.

I don't love watching myself. I think I dissociate when I am on the screen. But luckily, there's a lot that I'm not in that I was able to just enjoy as a fan because I didn't know much about the any goings on. So I was legitimately excited to see what happened moment to moment. And then when I happened to wobble in, I would just look at the floor.

Well, this is an episode where I hope you watched every single scene you're in because you're incredible, as always. Thanks. Okay, so Mark's coming out of a wellness session and he discovers Haley, and it's horrifying for him, obviously. Granner shoves him in the elevator and sends him home. Then we just jump to Mark coming right back to work and wakes up, horrified, walks out of the elevator, and there is Cobell and Milchick waiting for him. They tell him how he's recovering in the hospital. Interestingly, the first thing Mark says to them is, Is she alive? They tell him that she is in the hospital and her Audi has no intention of resigning. She'll be back in a few days.

Also, I think Michael Kumpste is really great in that scene Where it just this moment of something's gone horribly wrong, and he's like, Get in the elevator. Mark, get in the elevator. It's so messy and chaotic. He's in this mode of just triage mode. It's like when things get messy in that world, it's not pretty.

Yes. Michael is incredible. He really is. Because you get the feeling that he saw it on the video monitor, and hopefully he'll get there before any of the innies discover this, and then it's clean and they don't have to deal. But the moment he sees Mark in there, he knows that this is now a mess they'll have to contain. Yeah.

And the first thing he has to do is just turn your any off so he can deal with the problem.

I'm always blown away by, well, all of our actors generally, but the ones in positions of power within Lumen that have to exact these moments with such precision and calculated control. It's such a different experience than Michael Turnis and I, for example, have, which we're able to be soulful and warm in the moment. I feel like the skill and intellect required to pull off these moments blows my mind. I also love that character so much.

You're right. There's a quality of stillness that both Patricia and Tramell are able to have where they just can do nothing but hold the tension. And yeah, I agree. It's really wonderful how they do that.

Now, this moment where Kabel and Milchick tell Mark that Heli will be coming back, that her Audi has no intention of resigning, is the beginning of a bit of a turning point for Mark. He's been on board up till now with disciplining Heli and keeping her down there. But I think there's just something fundamental here that he, deep inside, does not agree with and is a bit horrified by, even if he's not consciously aware of it. And this is the beginning of a bit of a turn. Do you think that?

Yeah, definitely. And it's coinciding with reading the You, You, are.

Yes.

Because I think that's starting to open up his mind. Yes. And that sequence of Mark devouring the book and you're just starting to see all these ideas that are percolating inside of him and the different quotations and the different thoughts that we see running across the screen which are both profound and ridiculous.

Ridiculous. I mean, and Churnis reading them is so much fun to listen to. Delicio. Do you know some?

Well, there's Bullies are nothing but and lies. That's right.

But for Mark, for this innie, these are profound and just mind-blowing. Yeah.

And it was interesting when we were putting that episode together in editing was that that sequence, it was both the sequence of reading the book and seeing all the words was both... I was wondering how the audience was going to take it because for me, it was both funny and and the absurdity of his philosophy, but there's also a grain of truth in it that you have to buy. And so, again, in the bubble of making the show, when nobody had seen the show or knew what the show was, that was one of the things Because at night, sometimes I would think about it as like, Oh, will the audience buy this as real, or will it seem too silly?

I feel like that needle was threaded so gracefully because for one thing, I think the assumption generally would be that Mark Sennie and Audi are the same person with different memories. But what Adam does so beautifully in Wazen, the writing and certainly in the direction is that you watch the childlike quality of Mark Sennie and his ability to experience wonder in his ability to experience like, fandom. I think Audi Mark is maybe a little too bitter and downtrodden, but watching any Mark feel inspired by Ricken's words, well, I find it very cute, if you want to know the truth.

Yeah, he's beginning to have this idolatrous, is that the right word? Yeah. Relationship with Rickon, and his Audi just thinks he's a fool, obviously. It just completely dismisses him.

Yeah, which is one of the simple core ideas of the season, just that juxtaposition of Innie Mark's relationship with Rickon and Outie Mark. And that, to me was always that simplicity of what Dan came up with was what I really felt was just such a smart thing because it's just a natural, okay, these two at some point, AnyMark and Ricky Mark and Outie Mark and Rickon are going to... At some point this relationship is going to build to something where it's fun to think about that. And yeah, I agree, Adam, your perception of these things and the INI Mark, you're playing it so earnestly and real. That, to me, is what makes it work. And that's also, I think, the weirdness of the tone of the show is that you can start the show with this very graphic suicide attempt, and then halfway to the show, we're doing that.

Yeah, INI and Audi Mark seem to Their interests are on a bit of a collision course here, it seems. Okay, so now it's time to go out to the birthing retreat, and it's baby time.

It's baby o'clock.

For Ben and Michael, Mark gets a bunch of panicked voicemails from Rickon when he gets off work. Devon is in labor out at the birthing retreat.

Yeah, birthing cabins.

Birthing cabins.

Not a concept that I really was familiar with before Dan wrote it up.

Me neither. It's briefly mentioned in the previous episode.

Yeah, it's not a... Then when you look it up, you go, oh, people for natural childbirth.

I feel like every white yoga teacher in LA watched that episode and was taking notes.

They were like, this is a good idea.

I could make a mean book.

I like that little moment where you're looking on the internet at the cabins with you and Devon, and you're pretty snarky about it.

Yeah. It seems like Devon feels like it's a little silly, too. Maybe this is more of a Rickon thing, that they're going to the birthing retreat.

That's, by the way, something I just wanted to mention from episode 4 that I didn't get to, is when you're talking to Devon on the phone and you're finished with a phone call and you go, Okay, bye. It's one of my favorite line readings.

I do not remember.

It's literally like, Okay, bye. But it's like your relationship, like you're talking to your sister or whatever with your voice. That's one of my favorites.

That's funny. So Mark goes up to Devon Anne Rickens' birthing cabin runs into Alexa, who he had a disastrous date with, who is Devon and Rickens' doula. They have an awkward interaction. Nikki James, who is just incredible. She's so good. We should also note that that's Nora Dale doing an excellent job as Gabby.

I love the tension there between the two of you. And maybe in another show, it would be like, Oh, you're going to rekindle your romance in that scene. But it's just Mark is just still unable to really give anything, even though he's trying to apologize, but it's half-hearted, and it just felt like a very real moment.

Yeah, not particularly good at sewing up moments. Yeah.

And That's also for the audience being on Outie Mark's side. Again, I feel like you really made sure not to ever try to get the audience to like Outie Mark. Right. Which I think ends making it feel more real.

Totally. And I think that's why we do like Outie Mark, because it's just so honest.

Yeah, because you know what's inside of you. Yeah. But in reality, Mark can't really put himself out like that at this point. He's not there yet.

No.

Which Devon clearly doesn't pick up on because through contractions is still trying to play Yenta. She's still trying to land the plane for him.

That's right. She would totally go out with you again.

Yeah. You should do it. You should try.

Which after that last date, I can't imagine why she would. Then Mark goes into the birthing cabin where Ricken is sobbing over Devon's belly.

He's pleading that he doesn't want to be like his father. Please don't let me be my father, into her belly, and she's comforting him.

Tolerating him. I mean, good Lord.

The amount of improvised things that flew out of Churnis' mouth while we were shooting that one little section was a gift. He's so great. Yeah, it was... I think Devon's sick of him, but I think she loves him so much in an almost fraternal way that she forgives all of his frivolities because she also believes him. I think she's chosen to believe him. That's a choice that she made many years ago for her own comfort and stability. She's like, Yeah, this is my person. I'm going to say yes.

Do you feel like with this relationship with Devon and Rickon, he's always been this version of himself, and the relationship has been this version of the relationship, or are we catching them at a particular moment?

I think we're catching them at a particular moment. We all talked a lot about what the friendship looked like between Mark and Rickon and Devon and Gemma, and how different a dynamic that might have been before everything went wrong. I think before that, Rickon was probably less rigid. I think he was less interested in people's opinion of him. I think he was always interested in people's opinion of him, but I think it was a warmer dynamic that had greater ease between the four of us. I feel like any friend group, or in this case, family and friend group, when a member steps away or dies, it affects the entire thing. It's a Tetris game. I think Gemma's absence has affected the meat really differently. In Rickon's case, he has grown more and more insecure. He's had to confront the instability and the fact that the people around him, there's no guarantee they will always be there. I think Mark and Devon have had their own approaches. Marks is a very tangible He's been severed. And I think Devon is just trying to hold both of them together.

Yeah. It seems like the vacuum left by Gemma's absence and now Mark's half-absence by giving up half of his life to this place has been filled. Ricken and Mark, theoretically, were pretty close at one point and were understood each other on a few levels. And now it seems that Ricken's bought into this persona thing, and it's just all askew when we find them.

I think when their siblings are really close, when their partners enter the picture, there is a much kinder initiation process because there typically is a moment where the sibling who's not with the new partner says, You know what? My brother says yes, my sister says yes, so good for me. I'm going to be friends with this person. And I think there is probably an element of that, too.

Yeah. I think it's really interesting. It's a complicated dynamic what you're just talking about. S siblings, grown siblings with partners, how the partners get along with each other, all of that. And relationships change over the years and dynamics change.

Yeah. Ricken has these birthing practices that he's getting everyone to participate in, one of which is he asks Mark to share a secret which will create a soul void to speed up labor. No one seems to know exactly what that means.

I know what that means.

Well, of course, you know what it means.

Just because I have two children.

You created a soul void On the second one.

But what is interesting when you think about that is in the writing, if you had been told, this is how we're going to set up the idea of Mark telling Devon the secret about what he's thinking about. It's going on at Lumen that Petey told him, We're going to set it up by Rick and saying, someone should tell a secret so that they can create a soul void and release themselves of that guilt or whatever it is so that later Mark can be asked by Devon to tell a secret.

Totally. It's a great way to sneak it in there. And also for us to get the information that Ricken is aware that the book has not been commented upon by Audimark, and that Audimark isn't even aware that there was a book.

Yeah, it's probably... He might have even made it up just so that he could say that to Mark to find out why he hadn't gotten the book.

Yeah, he's clearly fishing for a compliment or an acknowledgement. Like he created the soul void thing just to try. That's right. That's so interesting. That's great. It's interesting because there's this moment where Mark and Rickon are hanging kelp in the birthing living room, and Mark's asking him, Why are we doing this? And Rickens is like, Do you really want me to explain it? You think everything I say is bullshit. They have this honest moment, and Mark just leaves.

I really would like him to explain it, though. It leaves I don't want anymore. So Devon goes on a bit of a walk here looking for a cup of coffee and discovers this big cabin, this larger her cabin.

Do we want to listen to the clip of her interaction with a woman she finds in there?

Yes, she really wants coffee.

Yeah.

Hi. I'm so sorry. I'm another pregnant lady. I'm from over there. I just came out on a coffee run, and I got distracted by your beautiful coffee, and I was wondering if there's any chance you could hook me up.

Okay.

Yeah. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Hi. Thank you so much. Let me squeeze right past you.

Oh, I'm Devon.

Gabby. Thank you for the narc. My husband is driving me fucking crazy. My brother's suppressing me. Is it your first? Yeah. Yours? My third.

I'm naming him William.

Three kiddos. I'm so fucking scared of ruining one child. How do you handle it? A lot of help, I guess. Yeah. Holy shit, by the way, about this Evan. So nice. Are you rich?

I love the way you play this, Jen. It's so good.

That dialog on the page, when you see that dialog on the page, Jen, and you're going to work, you're like, Okay, I have to get coffee. And I was distracted by your beautiful coffee. Was that dialog on the page, beautiful coffee? Or did you say that? Did you make that up?

I don't remember. I think I might have added beautiful. Okay.

But that on the page to me, if you saw that on the page and Dan creates these situations, it's not a typical situation. I'm not saying it's the most like you're playing a scene where some awful thing has happened. But to make something like to make that work or to make that real, that's not the easiest thing to do. I know it's a simple thing. And I do find for you as an actress, and this is a compliment, but I find it's almost impossible for you to say something that doesn't feel real when it comes out of your mouth.

Well, thanks.

Okay, yes. Thank you. No, but I'm curious in your process, how How do you process the words and is there something... How do you do it?

I don't know that I do process the words. I think it's for Devon anyway. She wears it so obviously on her sleeve. It is almost childlike in that way. Clearly, she's intelligent, but she is a bit bombastic and bro-y. Once I decided that that was the lane, that made it easy because the writing is so good anyway. But I think she means everything she says. Even when she's being sarcastic with Mark, it's done from such a sweet place that... I do remember shooting these birthing cabin scenes and thinking, when people are in physical pain, they become more childlike. What does it look like? I think we have so many misconceptions about labor. I myself have never experienced it, but many people I'm close to have. I actually asked a bunch of my friends before we started shooting that had given birth. I was like, You're not really making that sound, are you? Are you being funny? And they had all given me interesting backstory. So I do think that Devon defaulting to this goofiness a little bit is also a coping mechanism because she's in pain. She wants the coffee because she's in physical discomfort.

And I think that she also knows that she can connect with people from a place of vulnerability. Maybe that's come into clear focus in contrast to her husband, because for Rick and that is nearly impossible. That's probably why they work so well. But I think it was just There's a need. She needs the coffee. That's the bottom line. Even though, like you said, the container is so dramatic and the context is so dramatic, and I knew there was going to be this gorgeous score underneath. It's like, well, she still just wants her coffee. So, yeah.

I just... There's so much important information in this scene, and it's killing like six birds with one stone because you're playing it so well. And we're learning so much about Devon here, how she behaves in a situation like this, how she thinks about money. And it's also pushing class into the show a bit, which is super interesting. But it's all within the... It's only being pushed by character here, but there's all this interesting information. It's just there's a heavy load on you as an actor, and you're just getting it all out there in such a fascinating way that you don't even notice all the other stuff that's being loaded into the show right here. It's just the way you ask her if she's rich, you just learn so much about Devon in that moment. Yes.

There was There is a toddler in my life, and I had been one of my best friends, it's her son, and I had been spending a lot of time with him leading up to shooting, and that was him. Because I was thinking about how adults, however intelligent, can resort to childlike behavior when vulnerable. I was like, I think Devon's too tired to try to frame that as a diplomatic question. She's just like, I got a question. That's how kids are. I think about kids so often with any character that's at all vulnerable or messy or not intentionally put together. It's like, that's just what it is. It's just a little kid inside of us that's wanting to get information. I do think Devon, though deeply smart, is kid-like in that way.

That's so interesting.

Yeah.

It's great. It's great It's a great moment. I love it. Thanks. So Devon eventually heads back to the cabin, Rickon's asleep. So Mark and Devon have this moment where they're just chit-chatting. She's telling him that Alexa might give him another shot. And then Devon starts getting another contraction, and they face each other and make a joke about Rickon's earlier theory that we need to tell secrets when the baby's born or whatever. And so ends up with Mark almost telling Devon about Petey.

Yeah.

Gets real close.

Then that contraction hits.

Then a contraction hits, saved by the Bell.

Adam actually was very helpful because I was asking you about your wife, Naomi's experience with labor, and you were very kind telling me that I wasn't insane making those weird noises. After we'd cut, I was like, Am I making weird noise? Is it too cartoony? You were very helpful.

No, it feels so real. It's It's really…

Yeah. I mean, it's intense. From every birth that I've been around, it's pretty intense.

Every birth that I've been around.

The two of my children.

Yes. But yes, the almost getting the information, I also think is so important, both because it's telling of their relationship and also because it was fun to feel that type of suspense with Devon, because until that point, we're only existing outside of the danger of women, and we're really only in familial environments, even if you are in pain. And so it was fun to get to dip my toe in that for a second.

Yeah, and it shows that Mark, that Audi Mark, doesn't have anyone else, and he wants to talk about this with someone because there are concerns. This whole thing happened with Petey. He watched someone drop dead in front of him and was keeping him in his... He hasn't told anyone about this. So this is his person to talk to about this.

And this is episode five, and Mark is starting to believe that what Petty was talking about is real. And it's taken a little while, but we see that settling in and the reality of the fact that there's something going on that he is feeling this need to have to figure out.

And I remember really Really loving that about the show and the pace of the show, because when some stuff like this is happening, you could see that in a different situation on a different show. Episode one, he believes Petey immediately and goes on this quest to fight for justice. It takes away. It seems crazy, so it's going to take a while to really form it and believe it. You need to gather evidence and really internalize it.

I feel like the scene after this where Devon is giving birth off camera and you're sitting on the dock, it reinforces that because the whole scene, we're just hearing the childbirth. I'm curious how that was for you because you had to go to an ADR stage.

Oh, right. And do the sounds. It was great because it was the first time I'd seen what you'd shot of Adam when he's on the... Is he on a pier?

He's sitting on this little dock.

Like a dock, yeah. And I remember I got distracted because it was such a beautiful moment, and I feel like it was such a bittersweet tableau of Audiemarck's loneliness. This major life event that represents rebirth and new life is happening behind him, and yet he's here in this moment of solitude that is very clearly pained. I remember thinking how poetic and beautiful that was, that you've got this huge life event happening for Devon. But Mark so mired in all of the bullshit of Lumen that we just see him stuck there. But yes, doing the pregnancy sounds, the labor sounds rather in the ADR studio was a fun one.

Was Michael Churnis with you?

No, I think we did it separately, which was tough because I don't like really to do anything without Michael Churnis taxes, exercise classes. I need him there. So it was- That's how we all feel.

Right? All right, let's take a quick break. We'll be right back.

All right, so we're back in MDR, and Haley's returned, and Ms. Casey is there observing her and offering hugs upon request. It's so weird.

She haunt me in my dreams, Ms. Casey.

Yeah, Degen Lockman, the best.

Everything about her. She's so good.

Yeah. And she's like, you feel like she's like she knows she has to be there, but inside you feel something's going on with her. She's not maybe quite sure why she's there, but she's doing her job. And Irving is getting sleepy again. Yeah. And he has another dream. I love how Efa McCardle did this. This black goo is coming through the light panels in the ceiling and starts to drip out. I know she was very adamant about making sure we had real goo. So we There's this weird black, goopy, oily goo. I don't even know what it was, but the way she integrated that with the visual effects, it's pretty weird and beautiful, too.

It's really cool. And I remember I had to, for me leaning back into his dream, I put in this black contact lens, and then they dribbled goo coming out of my eye as well. Yes.

How did that feel?

It was super comfy. I loved it.

How did they trigger that? From whence was the goo coming?

We injected the goo into my tear ducts, and then I was able to... I don't remember. I don't remember how we did that.

I think there was a black contact lens of some type. Yes, it was a... And then we just dripped some of the black goo, and it might have been enhanced a little bit with the computer. And then Irving goes to make a photocopy of the map to O&D, and out of the copy or come the scary painting, this like, Mele, this coup happening. And it's between O&D and MDR.

Yeah. And we know it's O&D and MDR because of the color of their tag.

Yeah. O and D has the green tags and MDR has the blue tags. And it's a great little weird mural-like painting of this It's like an office battle happening with people's throats getting slit.

Yeah, it's carnage.

And John Ditturo's reaction is so amazing. He's in me seeing this. In terms of sensory the effect of seeing something like this for him who has seen very little in his life, that violent. For a desensitized culture that we're in, where we see so much every moment on our phones and screens for Irving seeing this painting, he's never seen any of that. And John just fills it with so much dread and fear. It makes it so important.

Totally. And for Irv, his whole world, like how he his window into the world is completely through art and paintings. And so this is horrifying.

His sensitivity to these images. And then all of a sudden, Milchick is there. And let's play that little moment where Milchick finds him looking at the painting. I'm sorry, Irving. We must have sent the sprint job here by a mistake. You weren't supposed to see this. What are these? Nothing. A joke for Ms. Cobell.

It's the O&D crew, isn't it?

The one that Dylan talks about.

Did that actually happen, Mr. Milchip? Of course not. Nothing like that could happen here.

Why? Wow.

God. Just awful.

The mind control going on, the levels with Milchick, fake lying. And, yeah, throughout the episode, Milchick and Cobell are going rogue and influencing all the employees, like their ponds in their chess game. We really get to see how that manipulation happens. And Milchick goes back and sees Cobell, and it turns out it was an unauthorized 266. I hate those. That's a maneuver.

I try and pull 266s on Jen all the That's what I'm doing all the time.

And I've got the scars to prove it. Okay.

And you also get the sense that Kabel trusts Milchick with her secrets of what she's up to. You get the feeling that what she's doing with Mark and sending him to Ms. Casey. We don't quite understand, but she's doing something that's unauthorized.

You get the sense that they're going rogue down there.

The relationship between Milchick and Cobell is one of my favorite relationships on the show. Watching that power dynamic and how it shifts and evolves is pretty fascinating. And man, oh, man, Tramell, every time he opens his mouth in that character, I get a little scared.

Oh, yeah. I think one of the interesting things in the show is that you don't quite know where people are coming from in management. You don't know if Milchick is up to something really bad. I mean, it seems like he's up to something bad, but then there are moments where he's empathetic. And with Cobell, I mean, she's just such a cipher and what Patricia is able to mask going on. It's fascinating to watch her, but you're always wondering, what is she up to?

Ben, would you say that the idea of alienating MDR from optics and design through the art or trying to get them to believe this fable about this big coup that occurred, Is it the ultimate idea behind it, the ultimate reason? Is it to prevent a form of unionizing or them getting too chummy?

Yeah, that's what it seems at this point is that there's an interest in keeping them separate. It's dividing, dividing and conquering. Yeah.

Getting people divided on things that don't actually have anything to do with their lives is the surest way to be able to control them, right? Isn't that...

Yeah. Well, and also in that, there's a scene later where cobalt says, to tame a prisoner. The surest way to tame a prisoner is to let him believe he's free. Right. They're putting these ideas in their heads and letting the ideas fester and grow. At the same time in the office, Haley's really not loving having Ms. Casey observe her, and Mark sees that and accidentally spills coffee to get Ms. Casey out of the way, and you and Haley take a little walk into the hallways.

Yeah, it seems part of this shift that's happened for Mark since the suicide attempt is that he's started feeling badly and is worried about Haley.

Yeah, I think he's worried about Haley, and he's also, I think, trying... I think he's... In my perception, he's wanting to connect with her. Yes. Maybe having some feelings of, I don't know if they're romantic feelings, but he just wants to reach out to her. Yes. And Mark Haley walk through the hallways and find this abandoned office bay where the desks are wrapped up in plastic. And Mark tells her that he's been recreating the map that he shredded last time.

Which is a huge step for Mark to be creating this piece of contraband like this for the sake of connecting with... I feel like he and Haley, Bert and Irving, this episode, all these relationships are starting to dislodge and take on a life of their own a little bit.

Yeah. And I think also the parallel of Innie and Mark starting to question what's going on a little bit, too, making the map, and Outie Mark starting to... There's parallel tracks happening her Indian Audi mark at the same time. Yeah, totally. And you give Heli the map and you say, this is the map that Pee Dee was drawing. I'm recreating it. And she says, I'm not your new Pee Dee.

Right.

It's not going to be that easy with her. And you start going into the far recesses of the the outer hallways, which are dark and-Yeah.

So the lighting, it seems like the lights are going on as they travel through the hallways to save power, I would assume. Is that what that's about?

Yeah. It's like the areas that are not used as much to save energy and money. They keep the lights off and they're triggered by motion sensors. I actually saw that in this great Ruben Oslin movie, The Square.Oh, my favorite movie.Oh, yeah.It's.

My favorite movie.So.

Great.so great.It's really good. I saw it in that. I was like, Oh, that's really cool and creepy. He's a great filmmaker. He's incredible. And so I think that's where that idea came from. And it just creates more mystery. The feeling of the maze of these hallways and the images it allows in the frame are really fun because these perspectives and these rectangles and different shapes that you can create with the lighting.

It makes it even more disorienting and confusing, too. You really don't know where the hell you are. Yeah. And shooting it was really strange because those lights weren't motion sensor lights. That's right. It's obviously there were technicians, are incredible lighting crew controlling those lights as we walked.

Yeah, exactly. So our gaffer, Kurt Lening, would be literally triggering each light as you walk down the hallway. So we'd have to get that timing right on each take. Wow. And then you, Mark and Alley here, a little baby goat bleat. That's right. Is that a goat bleat? I think goat bleat. And it's very jarring.

And here we are with one of the, would you say, the hallmark elements of of of Severance is the baby goats?

People have really, really gotten into the goats. People love the goats.

They really do.

It's pretty funny because, I mean, yeah, the goats, again, Dan Erickson coming up with the idea of goats in office hallways. What are the goats about? Because you guys find this room and there's a gentleman with a leather apron and a bunch of baby goats he's nursing. Who gets very, very concerned that you're trying to take the goats away.

It's really weird. And one of the things that we shot, and it was really fun and interesting being with baby goats all day. But then when the show comes out a year later and this element of the show explodes, it was not something I anticipated at all.

I don't know about you. No, definitely. I didn't think about it either. And I think it was also just the mystery of the goats. What are the goats about. You don't really get a sense of that from this scene at all.

Should we hear a clip of that particular scene? Oh, yeah.

They're not ready.

You can't take them yet.

They're not ready.

It isn't time. Get the hell out of here. Go.

Those goats had to go to the same ADR studio.

Yeah, they were there with you, correct?

Yeah, they asked me to double team it.

Was one of them running the ADR session, like with headphones and everything?

Yeah, that was Jane. She's great.

She's terrific. She's like a grown up now. It's crazy.

Absolutely.

So there's a really big Severance Reddit site. I think it's called r/severanceappletv+ and there's a lot A lot of theories, apparently, there about what the goats are about.

But friends did send me links to this Reddit, and they're really cool and smart. A lot of them are like, Oh, that would be an interesting direction. But they loved the goats.

One of them is, here's a quote, I really think they're testing cloning technologies. That's interesting because didn't they clone a sheep? Yeah.

Yeah. In the '90s.

What was her name, Sally? No, it was- Deborah.

No. It was Deborah. No, Bessy?

Bessy? Bessy. Dolly. Dolly. Dolly. Dolly. Dolly.

But whatever happened with that? Because there was a whole thing they cloned a sheep, but then at this point, they should be cloning people.

They are. We just don't know about it. Oh, my God. You guys, you should read my subreddit.

Someone should follow up on that cloning thing is all I'm saying.

It's been a while. I want to hear some new cloning techniques.

Because that would work out well for all of us.

You could clone yourself to live through daylight savings time.

What's another theory? The goats have been inserted with the outies of other severed employees/people. Their minds are trapped in the goats. Oh, Whoa.

Okay, that's spicy.

Wow. That's cool. That's spicy. The goats have the... Yeah, the consciousness of seven people in them.

Adam, I'm curious, just actor to actor, what it was like to work with the goats.

I mean, listen, I've worked with a lot of really talented creatures over the years, human and not human. Thank you. Yeah, I actually took video that day and I pan over to our boom operator, Kira Smith, and then go down and you see that baby goats are eating her shoelaces. Oh my God. They will just walk up to you and start eating your pants, and they are so cute and gentle. They're lovely.

Also, I think they're not all baby goats. They were pygmy goats. Yeah, I think you're right. Some of them were baby pygmy goats, so they never get that big.

Would you say that's in the top three questions you get asked? Is it about the goats?

Yeah, I get a lot of goat stuff just because of the show, but also generally. While Heli and Mark are wandering the channels, Irving and Dylan go to find Bert.

Yeah, Dylan is suspicious, and he follows Irving, right?

I love this scene with the three of them, with Dylan, Irv, and Bert, and seeing these three incredible actors jump into this. Christopher Walkin saying that he was practicing a joke. That's why he was there, and Irving getting stuck on it and saying, If you were to see me, why were you in the conference room? You just get this, again, another example of this being such a small world for these people. These small moves within an office environment take on such meaning.

Yeah. Do you want to hear that scene? Totally. It's literally silly. Like they say, you all have pouches. Pouches? Like to carry young? Yes. According to some, you each have a larval offspringing that will jump out and attack if we get too close. That's fucking psycho. I mean, it's a joke, of course, but I don't know. The sentiment somehow holds people are weird. Though I'd be remiss not to say that in this theory, the larva eventually eats and replaces you, which Irving would solve the mystery of your youthful energy.

Oh, my God.

When they flirt, I just melt.

It's the best. I mean, that dialog is just so unique.

It's very Dan. The larva eventually eats and replaces you. It's so awesome.

That's his little flirtatious move. That's right. Which solves the mystery of your youthful energy.

But it's also Dan- Because the Marvel can eat out of it. To be spending these fantastical tales, but then you have a character that's so grounded in realism that they're cutting through because Dylan is like, That's fucking psycho.

Totally.

It's so great.

The King of Fucks. Yeah, that's great. That could be Chris Walkins' It's a nice film. It's a sequence of King of New York.

The King of Fucks. It's interesting to get this insight into how Lumen top brass, they plant these fantastical myths about department versus I remember what we were talking about earlier. It's this crazy, the things that they're planting in their minds.

Yeah, and it really sets Dylan off. Dylan's dialog, too, is, Are you sweet on this guy? Yeah. It's like, It's suddenly like all of a sudden, he's in a 1940s movie.

I know.

It's great.

But without the homophobia of a 1940s movie, which I think is really special in the world of women, is that Dylan's just annoying that he has a crush on someone.

Oh, yeah. He has a great problem with that. It's that he's from O&D. Yeah. That's right. He does not trust him.

That's right.

Yeah. So they go off to O&D, right?

Yeah. Bert invites them along.

Right. But they tie Bird up.

Right. They tie his hands.

Dylan takes his belt, which becomes a theme in the show somehow.

And then on their walk over to O&D, they continue flirting. And seeing Dylan Dylan as the third wheel is so funny.

Well, they're flirting while Bert has his hands tied behind his back, and Dylan is behind them like a guard. Then he unties him, and he's like, Hey, why don't you come in for a second? I'll show you something.

Bert just doesn't care, isn't threatened by these guys.

In my dream, like alternative reality, alternate reality, rather, Bert has a public access talk show, and his he has a public access talk show because I could just listen to him philosophize about things all day long with a giant added microphone.

I'd watch that. Me too.

And then while they're hanging out, Bert and Irving, Dylan starts snooping around in the back of the O&D, the storage area, where, by the way, the production design there was, I think, intentional to make those drawers. It feels like a morgue. Yeah. And I love that feeling there. It's like, weirdly creepy, even though it's just art stuff.

Yeah, that's so interesting. So he finds another version of the painting that was so upsetting earlier in the episode, except this time, the lanyards are switched, and MDR are now the aggressors, and O&D are the victims.

Yeah. It happens just as Irving is starting to make a move on Bert in terms of reaching out to touch his hand after the last time where he had pulled away. Now, Irving is starting to feel more confident and wanting to connect with him. And just at that moment, Dylan comes out with the painting saying, Look, they're lying. They're lying. Look at this. But Dylan didn't realize that the tags had been switched. So Irving and Bert look at the painting and realized that somebody had shown them a version of the painting with the tag switched. That was what the printed one was. And they start to get the sense that someone's trying to manipulate them.

Yeah. And it's interesting to see the ripple facts of Haley arriving down here are just reaching out and everyone is shifting their mind a little bit about their circumstances down here.

And Bert takes this opportunity to open the door to that back room that Irving had peaked into last time and introduces them to the O&D team and says they're friends.

Yeah. And we see Felicia in there, too, whom we- Love Felicia. We've met earlier, Claudia Robinson, who is great, truly. All right, so that's episode 5. Jenn, how are you feeling about season Dose or Two?

I always forget you're bilingual. I feel great. I'm so excited. I think the fact that both Adam and I have aged so aggressively between seasons really lends a new level of vulnerability to both of the characters.

But beyond that- I hope people recognize you.

I hope they do, too. I think, and you know what? If they don't, it's okay. I don't need it. I don't need it.

But you didn't get a facelift like I did before we started.

Which is, and you always said, only do it in Spain, and I understand why. It's seamless.

And way cheaper.

You guys both look marvelous. You look marvelous.

You do, too, Ben. You look marvelous. You all look marvelous. I think season two is marvelous, and I'm so excited for people to see it.

We got to get Billy Crystal on the podcast.

Definitely. We have to get Billy Crystal.

Oh, yeah, on the show.

We should get Konan O'Brien because I was just doing Konan's podcast the other day, and he's a really big fan of the show. I think we should someday try to get Al Pacino on the show. One hundred. Because he is the man. He is my acting idol. He's the world's acting idol.

I just wanted to say to those listening, because he won't say it himself, but Ben Stiller has, I'm going to say, an air It's a white impersonation of Pacino.

Truly. It rattles me. Which I didn't know about until today.

No, it's me doing an impression of Bill Hater's impression of Al Pacino. Well, that's just as good. Bill Hater is the... Let's have Bill Hater on the show. I didn't even know if He's a friend, but I don't even know. He's seen the show. I think he likes the show. He's just so entertaining.

He would impersonate every character to a frightening degree. It would be great.

It's crazy how good Bill Hater's impressions are.

And he does like Alan Alda and people that don't usually get in person. And Mash. It's real specific. He does all the characters of Mash.

But I do have it on inside information from having had an interaction with Mr. Pacino, and I know you did, too, that he is a fan of the show, which just really makes me want to now just retire. It's so cool.It's incredible.

That's really cool.

I cried a little bit after I met him, and he told us that Have you ever talked to him about Al Pacino from Tropic Thunder? I have not.

From Tropic Thunder. Yeah, the rapper. I know. It was an interaction at a dinner, and I just tried to pretend like it's, Hey, it's cool talking to these people. But these are people there. The work is so just the basis for why we do what we do, right?

Al Pacino, man.

I think when people at such an insane level of success, such as yourselves, are able to be honest about those moments that feel cool. I think that we should all maintain that for all of our lives. I think it's very special when you're like, Oh, you've inspired so many people. But then when you talk about someone who's inspired you, I think it's cool.

Yeah. It goes back to what you were saying, Jen, about acting and when you think about your characters as kids. Isn't that what the base is? We're all kids inside.

Yeah, we're all fans of something.

You do need to be in touch with that as an actor, but just as a person, that's the basis of your feelings.

Kate Blanchette put two fingers on my shoulder simply to steady herself at an event. It had nothing to do with me. It was like a hot knife through butter. It changed my molecular structure.

Yeah, because she trusted you enough to lean on you. She did.

She saw you as a solid person, a balanced, solid person. That's right.

She said, Look at those shoulders. I can lean here. That's right.

Yeah. For me, it's like that is the excitement of doing what we do, like to be able to interact with people who have inspired you so much or who you work, you still go to. You still watch and Every day you can go back and look at this stuff, and it's what keeps me wanting to do what we did.

I feel that way about this podcast. There. How about that?

Thank you, Jen. How about that, guys? It's a good way to end it. Thank you for being on the podcast. My pleasure.

It was so good to be with you.

That is it for episode 5. Follow, rate, and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or anywhere else you love listening to our gorgeous voices. The Severance This podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is a presentation of Odyssey, Pineapple Street Studios, Red Hour Productions, and Great Scott Productions.

If you like the show, be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or your other podcast platform. Form of choice. Our executive producers are Barry Finkel, Henry Malowski, Jenna Weis-Burman, and Leah Reece Dennis. The show is produced by Zandra Ellen and Naomi Scott. This episode was mixed and mastered by Chris Baisal. We have additional engineering from Javi Cruises and Davie Sumner.

Show clips are courtesy of Fifth Season. Music by Theodore Shapiro. Special thanks to the team at Odyssey, Maura Curren, Eric Dunnally, Michael Lavey, Melissa Wester, Matt Casey, Kate Rose, Kirek Courtney, and Hilary Shuff.

And the team at Red Hour, John Lesher, Carolina Pessacov, Jean Pablo Antanetti, Martin Valdiruten, Ashwin Ramesh, Maria Noto, John Baker, and Oliver Agher.

And at Great Scott, Kevin Cotter, Josh Martin, and Christie Smith at Rise Management.

We also had additional production help from Gabrielle Lewis, Ben Goldberg, Stephen Key, Kristen Torres, Emmanuel Hapsis, Maria Alexa Kavanaugh, and Melissa The Slaughter.

I'm Adam Scott. I'm Ben Stiller. We will see you next time.

Hey, Adam. Yeah. Is your experience at work a bit dysfunctional lately? I don't know.

I think it's...

Okay, I'll take that as a yes. Your team could undergo a highly controversial surgical procedure that would mercifully sever any and all memories of that work experience from your home lives. Or you could try Confluence by Atlassian.

Oh, my God. Well, if it's a choice between those two things, I think I would 100% choose Confluence by Atlassian.

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That would equal out, if we're playing with, let's just say 100%, 5.2 of those percentage points, that's the improvement.

I mean, I'm not great at math, but that sounds very close.

Well, I'm doing the math in my head right now as we speak, and I think that's great.

Why not keep your team unsevered? In Confluence, the connected workspace where teams can do it all, set knowledge free with Confluence. Learn more at atlassian. Com/confluence. That's atlassian. Com/confluencie.