Transcript of S1EP8: What's for Dinner? (with John Turturro)

This episode of the Severance podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is brought to you by Confluence by Atlassian, the connected workspace where teams can create, organize, and deliver work like never before. Set knowledge free with Confluence. Hey, I'm Ben Stiller.

I'm Adam Scott.

This is the Severance podcast with Ben and Adam, where we break down every episode of Severance.

Today, we're recapping Season 1, Episode 8, What's dinner, written by Chris Black and directed by the one and only Ben Stiller. Ben, second to last recap, or as they say, penultimate recap of Season 1, how are you rating this show that you made overall on rewatch? Scale 1 to 10.

I'm not good at judging my own work, okay? If I'm reading the process, I've been enjoying the process a lot It's been fun to go back in and have the different experiences of watching the episodes with some time in between talking to everybody about them, sometimes pleasantly surprised at something and other times looking at it and going, I wish I did that differently, too. Always, too. But overall, I think it's been great and fun, and I'm super excited, too, for today because of who's on our show.

Yeah, Me too. I think also rewatching the show with the intention of discussing it and digging into it is a different experience, too. That's been really fun as well.

Yeah. Also, as we roll into season 2, looking back at season 1 and thinking about all the things that we thought about when we were making season 2 and the little details from season 1 that sometimes I go, Oh, there are actually some things I actually look at and go, Wait a minute, I forgot we did that. Yeah. Maybe I shouldn't admit that, but there are- No, I see that stuff all the time, and it's really fun.

Also, just incidentally, I'd rate this episode of the podcast that we've done so far as a 12 out of 10.

Wow. Yeah. Wow. All right. That's great. Maybe we should stop here. No, it's going to get even bigger and better because Toturo is coming on.

Oh, my God. You're right. Today, we are joined by the legendary and Emmy Award-winning actor, writer, and director, John Toturo, who we know and love on Severance as Irving. John, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for doing this.

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

Yeah, I'm very excited to have you here, John.

So excited.

We were excited when you joined the cast back when we were starting the show. As was I. Yeah, that was a big thing for us when you said you were interested, and we met and talked, and I remember we had a nice meal out in Brooklyn.Yes.Talked about stuff.

It's always good to read great material. I also, very grateful had been thought of me in doing something that I hadn't done before. That's always a big incentive and compliment. You say, Wow, I'm not sure how good I will be doing this thing, but I love to do things that I haven't done before. And I was a fan of a bunch of films that had been directed right from the beginning. Was it Reality Bites?

Yeah, that was my first.

That's right. I remember seeing that. And Of course, I'm obsessed with the documentary of Tropic Thunder, which I consider a documentary. When we met and we talked with Dan and everything, I thought the The scripts were excellent. My major concern was who would be the apple of my affection. Then I suggested at the dinner Chris, because I've worked with Chris so many times. I know Ben knows him, and I just really love something about Chris, the child that within him, with this man who has this great experience, and he's very skilled, too. We always have a lot of fun together.

Chris being Chris Walken, Christopher Walken, the great Chris Walken.

Great, yes.

Sir Walken. Yeah. That was pretty funny the way that all developed because we did have that dinner. I remember at the dinner when we were talking, I think Dan Erickson was there, we talked about who might be Bert, and you mentioned Chris, and I just Like, secretly, I just... There was like a little bit of a... I had a mini explosion inside of me, as you said. I was like, Oh, this is great. Yeah, and then you said, I can reach out to him or I can see if he's in. I was like, All right, well, if you're going to do that, I'll be happy to do whatever we need to do. I know Chris a little bit because my dad worked with him back in the '80s. In Hurley Burley. In Hurley Burley, a play that Mike Nichols directed, and Chris Walkin, and William Hurt, and Sigourney Weaver, and my dad, Jerry Stiller, and Harvey Keitel, and just amazing cast. Wow. Chris and my dad became very close during that, and I think knew each other over the years beforehand, too. But he's still Christopher Walkin, to me as a fan, I'm just always slightly intimidated.

As honestly, John, I didn't really know you that well before we started working together, and I was a little bit intimidated it, too, because I think you're a great actor and director. I know you're really serious about the work. That, to me, was exciting because I thought, okay, if you see something in this, I was curious. What was it that you saw in it when you first read it?

What was it that it-I thought it was so original. I thought it was so original, and I thought the characters were all really delineated really well. I thought, Obviously, you'd put a lot of thought into it. I thought, Wow, if you have the right combination of people, this could be really interesting. The group that you put together of Adam leading and and Brit, and Zack and Tramell, and Patricia. It's a really good group, and everyone works really well together. I've had plenty of experiences working with people who are wonderful actors. It's like a one-way treat. And when it's not that way, you can create this space between the characters. To me, that's the most interesting thing, and also getting to know people. You don't know someone. I didn't know anyone, really, except for Chris. And so you learn how to work together and you start to say, Oh, this is what the person likes. My job is to bring all my homework and everything I do, but also to plug in to your brain and to Dan's brain to say, Okay, this is what they're going for. It takes a little adjustment at times. I always think at the beginning, everyone's nervous.

And it doesn't matter who they are. They're nervous, and you make choices, and sometimes the choices are too big, they're too small, they're not brave enough. Then once you establish that, then you can go a lot of different phases. Then you develop a shorthand. I could tell a lot of times, okay, you want a variation? And okay, let me spin it this way. Let me spin it that way. But so that's That's always a joy for me to discover the chemistry between the people that I'm working with. To me, that's maybe even more important or as important as a script.

It was really fun over for season one, particularly at the beginning with the four of us in MDR, I remember us, getting to know each other and getting to know how each of us works and all of us starting to, like you said, take some chances on whether it's too big or too small or whatever, but trying something out and knowing that we would be supported by the other three.

Yeah, I watched that happen. I think I felt it, too, as a director, starting to feel more comfortable. I remember the first few days we were shooting some stuff, and I was in the hallways or something, and you came in with the Irving voice, and I didn't know you were going to do that voice. The first time I heard it, I was like, Whoa, whoa. It was really specific and it was really committed, and I liked it, but I was also like, it It came out of nowhere. I remember, I was like, okay. It's interesting, as a director, you feel like sometimes you have to say something or you have to check in on it. I wasn't sure. Honestly, the first time I heard it, I wasn't sure. I was like, wow, this is a really committed choice. Now, obviously, I'm not sure that you would be good doing it, but it was a choice. Do you remember? I had a little conversation with you.

Yeah, I remember. Oh, yeah, I remember exactly. I remember exactly. I said, Let me listen to it. I listened to it and I said, You know what? I need to just pull that back a little bit. Yeah. No, but you said...

Because I wanted to have a certain-I don't think I gave you any direction on it other than I said, is this... Tell me. Are you sure?

You said, Are you sure? I was like, I'm not sure of anything, really. But no, once I listened to it, I just thought, okay, you're in a virginal state.

It's a director, I didn't want to... Because, by the way, I once did that on a movie where I did a New York, more of a New York accent, and the director, like, freaked out about it. I got really... I stood my ground. I was like, no, I'm going to do this. I don't know if he ever was happy that I did it, and I don't even know if it worked. But I also know as an actor, I don't want the director in my head questioning a choice I'm making because you want to feel like, Okay, let me go with this thing and explore it and not be self-conscious about it. I swear to you, by the end of the week, I couldn't imagine the character sounding any other way. It was just, you know what I mean? By the end of the week, the first week of shooting, it was just like, Okay, this is Irving, and it's like, Of course, this is Irving. Right.

But we're all getting to know each other and someone's trying something. Sometimes, there are times when people do things, you just go, Well, that's out of the ballpark. That's not in the vicinity. I've been there. You're like, Whoa, I don't think this is going to... But sometimes it's just a little adjustment.

Also, there's so many questions about these characters that we don't know in terms of who their Audi is, what their outside life is, where they come from that we don't know as an audience intentionally. Then there's the interaction, like you're saying, between the actors, which I think is such an important thing, what you're talking about, that chemistry, because that's really what makes something that works, I think, that that just happens. You guys develop that. I remember also there's a moment in episode three when you pull Mark aside and you say, We should take her to the perpetuity wing.

Right.

Adam, I remember talking to you because it was very early on. There was such an intensity of belief, an understanding of why it was important to take her to the perpetuity wing that told me so much about Irving in terms of his commitment to the ideology or the key Lumen, the rules and the mythology that you'd been taught and abided by and lived by. To me, that moment, I was like, Oh, this is why the show can work, because John Tutturo, as Irving, is saying, You have to take her perpetuity wing, and I believe him, that there's such a depth there that I don't even know if it was even there in the writing of that scene.

Well, there was an opening to go down deep, to go to send in your elevator, which is a metaphor for acting. Sometimes when I've worked with different directors who are even great directors, I always think sometimes, Well, what are they good at and what is my job? What can I do to surprise them a little bit, to give them a gift back? Because I think that's your job is to give them something that maybe they haven't thought of because they have to think of so many things. It would make Mark's character have to deal with this guy who has this belief. Personally, I'm very afraid of cults. I really am afraid of them. There are certain buildings I cross the street. I go like, I don't want to be even in front of the building. It was fun to delve in.

What was that like, Adam, for you when you were doing that scene? It was the first real one-on-one time scene that I had with John, so I was nervous about it.

But that fervent stance he was taking there with the perpetuity wing, like you're saying, it was just crystal clear this was everything to Irving. This was everything. And it really helped me because I was still defining all the corners of Mark, and Mark had to be a believer in the place in order to become disillusioned with it. But he had to be in between someone like Irving and then someone like Dylan or Haley or something like that. So it really helped me find the gradations of where Mark falls in the loom and lure of it all. But yeah, was just... I remember that as a big moment as well. It's really fun, and it's really fun to watch.

Also, you say a gift that you give the director, which that's exactly what it is, but it's also obviously a gift for the audience, too, because everybody's getting to watch it. But there are these moments there that I think for me, having spent a lot of time in editing it, and so you look at the material and you look at the takes and all of that. As you know, as a director, when you find that, okay, that take or that moment that you want to choose that just stick with me, like that moment in that scene. I can think of two or three or four other ones across the series that for me are like those moments whenever I see them, I'm so grateful that they're there because they just... I don't know. What is that thing when you see somebody have a moment that's real that just pulls you into something in a way that there's no separation between what you're watching and what it is because it feels real, even though it's a TV show that's a crazy thing.

I think the whole idea is to give it away, obviously to the audience. But I always think of, you're going to be in that room looking at all this footage. You want to give someone choices and as much complexity as is required.

Yeah, it's great. Maybe just before we start talking about the episode, your relationship with Chris Walkin, you guys have known each other for a long time, and you've directed him a few times, right?

I had worked with him as an actor once before in Search and Destro. We definitely got along and I've directed him three different times. I directed him once as a theater critic, like an Oscar Wilde critic in Illuminata. He's a very interesting guy because he's confident, but he's very humble. He's a very humble person, and It's easy to get something going between the both of you. I've seen him on stage when I was a student at Yell drama school, and I've seen him do a lot of plays. He's a really tremendously talented guy. I know everyone imitates him and stuff like that, but he's so sensitive. You could just touch his hand and it's like electric. It's so easy to be in love with. Yeah.

I'm watching you guys work on those scenes across the was always such a treat to watch how you guys interacted and just played with each other and allowing just the energy to develop. Yeah.

It was The scenes are just so special.

Yeah.

John, I just wanted to go back to the beginning of the conversation. Just one thing I wanted to ask you. When you said that the show was something that you had never done before, do you mean the genre or or the character? What were you referring to?

Both. The genre and the character. I thought, Oh, this is something I could morph into. I love the whole chameleon approach to something. I love when someone asks me to do something that they haven't seen me do. I feel like whenever I get that opportunity, it's always an exciting one.

Maybe we should take a break and then come right back, and then we can recap episode 8.

At Lumen, things are not always what they seem. Mark, Dylan, Heli, and Irving in MDR make a great team. But what lies beyond the four white walls of their department. There seem to be more questions than answers as the secrets of Lumen are slowly revealed.

There's definitely a lot more going on than you see. It's a little bit creepy.

I agree. There are more Qs than As in this place.

Yeah, for sure.

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For the past three seasons of gone south, we've covered one story per season. We tried to figure out who killed Margaret Coon.

She told me I'm going to kill you. I said, Well, do it, bitch. Go ahead and do it.

We delved into the violent world of the Dixie Mafia.

I'm an outlaw, and I was a thief, but I'm far from being the psychotic nutcase that I've been made to be.

And we tracked a serial killer in Laredo, Texas.

Just turn around.

Please.

Turn around.

Now, Gone South is back for a fourth season. But this time, we're doing things a little differently.

So in Gone South Season 4, we'll be bringing you news stories every week with no end in sight.

I'm Jed Lepinsky. Welcome back to Gone South, an Odyssey Original podcast. Listen and follow now on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts for new episodes every week.

Okay, episode 8 opens in Irving's home, so we're with his Audi. He's drinking black coffee and cranking Motorhead's Ace of Spades, and then just going to town on a painting. So this is the Irving is Super Cool reveal, in a sense. It is so satisfying to learn that this character we've been rooting for all season is super cool and interesting in the outside world. First of all, Ben, this Motorhead song, Ace of Spades, how did that fit in? Or, John, did you have something to do with it?

No, I credit my directive.

We knew we wanted to have a fun song. Like I think I've said before, I have this like, Severance list that over the course of the year is making the show that we create, and we're thinking of different fun high-energy songs, and that one just somehow felt right. I think on a lot of levels, it's interesting, too, when we start to learn more about Irving's backstory. But, John, I remember when we talked about the scene, you were really specific about this process of Irving painting that you knew, you had a sense of it in terms of... I just remember you had a really clear idea of how you wanted to do it.

Well, yeah. I was practicing a lot in my dressing room during the other episodes, but I have a lot of painters in my family and things, and I was thinking, well, here's this guy who's really regimened. And a lot of the times these people, they have a whole other life. And I had done a lot of background stuff. But when you played that song, I thought, wow, this is great, because I I had the song, and then I had been practicing the painting and how we would paint it. You were telling me, use your hands more, do that. As I've gotten more experience, sometimes you have these sequences, what you don't talk, but you have something to do. And you kept saying, paint faster there and use your hands more with it and more like an action painter. One of my uncles was an abstract painter. He's also searching for something. As he's doing, he's trying to figure something out at the same time. I remember it was really... I felt like a really great collaboration with you in that. It was without words, but you gave me... I was like, Okay, we're rock and rolling now.

Yeah, I felt that, too. It was so much fun. Then, honestly, the last part of it was Jeff Richmond, our editor, just when we put it together, he was so into it, too. It just has such an energy to it. Yeah, it says so much about Irving on the outside without words, that all of a sudden we have a whole new character that we're meeting. We see as you're squeezing out the black paint, that black goo that really looks a lot like the dreams we saw earlier. I got the info from Doug Coleman, who's our special effects person. Doug, by the way, I've worked with on movies over the years. In New York, is one of prominent special effects people. He's also the guy who makes all our snow for real and all the other crazy actual practical effects in the show. He said it's from Blaire Adhesives, this company that is the same company that makes the slime for Nickelodian. It's not the same material, not the same composite, but they obviously know how to make gooey, droopy stuff.

Really well.

By the way, I was talking earlier about some of those scenes where I had these memorable moments. The wellness scene, this is way back, I guess it's-Oh, yes. Yeah. With Miss Casey.

Great Miss Casey. Well, she was brilliant in the scene. You think about what leaks in from his Audi Obviously, he has a vocabulary and stuff, but you're still in this altered, childish state or childlike state. But I just thought she was so good. The way you did it. I mean, a lot of these things are so challenging, and a lot of it has to do with how you listen and the point of view that you've developed to help you listen from that. And he is starved.

He's so happy when he hears certain...

I mean, so much of this is really the only thing I think when I read it, too, and working on the show, there was this Kubrickian approach to it. Even Adam's character and how you've been went about it. I never worked with Kubrick. I almost worked with Kubrick, but I didn't say the right thing to Stanley. Which movie? Well, I can talk about it. It's over now. He wanted me to be an Eyes Wide Shut. There was a character that Todd Field played eventually that was supposed to be in the beginning, the middle, and the end, but they cut the end. They said he was going to talk to me, and he did call me up, and I had a two-hour conversation with him. I kept thinking, Well, this is a joke. It can't be Stanley Kubrick. He was like, I know every film you've ever made, blah, blah, blah, blah, the film he made. And he said, I wrote the part for you, and I think you're a really wonderful actor. I was embarrassed, and I said, Well, thank you. And he said, Well, you are. And I said, Well, I can't walk around my house telling my wife that I'm a wonderful actor because she'll hit me with a frying pan.

Then at the end, he said, How can I get you the script? It was in the '90s. I said, Well, you could Fedex it to And he said, Well, what if you're not home? I said, Well, my FedEx man throws it over my gate. I said, I know him. His name is Ray. And he said, That's unbelievable. The mind doesn't do that. I said, Well, do you talk to your FedEx man? He said, No, I don't know his name. So he said, Okay, let's say... I shouldn't go off on anything. Let's say you get it, you read it, you like it, then what do we do? I said, Well, then we'll work it out. He said, But I heard next year you may do a film. This was a year away. He said, You want to direct something? I said, Well, I directed one film. I'm not a director. He said, Yes, but what would we do? And I Well, we'd work it out, obviously. I didn't say, Forget it, you're first. That's what he wanted me to say. After talking to him for 2 hours, the next day, they called me up and they said, Stanley said, You're not available.

What?

Because I wasn't available for two years.

By the way, you really would have had to have been available for two years.

I would have been replaced, probably. A lot of people were replaced. But I wanted to see what that experience of the 100 take thing was. That's incredible. But so when I was on this show, I kept thinking about, that kept coming into my brain. I never really told you. I was thinking like, You know what? This is better anyway. I'm better off being here.

The one decision I ever made that could compare with Stanley Kubrick favorably is that I hired you for this.

Well, no, I'm telling you, it kept going through my brain because certain films-Yeah, I think he's in all our brains in terms of just his influence on film I can't imagine what that's like to have Stanley Kubrick say to you, I wrote a part for you.

Yeah.

Then he asked me about all the actors, What do you think of this person? What do you think of that person? Of course, I'm going to say, They're good. What was he going to say?

All the actors he was thinking of hiring or that he had all for-Yeah, he had hired.

He wanted to know about what I thought about Tom and everything. I was like, He's terrific.

That's That's an amazing story. Yeah.

At least I had that experience. I forget I'd share that.

That is incredible. Well, I want to ask John, what is it that you knew about your Audi walking in, the conversations you and Ben and Dan had about it?

Dan gave me a whole backstory, and I did a lot of research on that backstory to see what would be the remnants of that for his innit. So I was looking forward to that. But then once we decided that he had a leather jacket, and then Ben really liked the leather jacket, and then he paints. Well, I figured he likes painting and he likes classical music and all that stuff. But when Ben put that song on, I was like, Oh, man, this is great. This is like the secret.

This is the secret Irving who goes to the underground clubs and stuff. Who knows, right?

Who knows? I mean, all of us have surprises.

That's the funny thing about this show, too, is a lot of it is we don't say what the backstory is, obviously, for the audience. But there's also the influence of a wardrobe choice. All of a sudden, it's like, Wait, I was thinking this. The feeling of what that is, that even though it's all thought out ahead of time and incredibly specific, I feel like these choices in the can really affect everything, too. You have to be open to that, too. Absolutely.

That's right. Absolutely.

That he has a dog. That's really interesting to me, too. Yeah.

Radar. Radar. Yes. Your Audi likes the The Sound of Radar. We hear that in episode 3.

Yeah. I mean, it's the man with his dog.

That dog, by the way, is named Ditto, the actor. Ditto is also known for being in succession. That's right. We had to work around his availability for- The star.

Okay, let's get into what the other folks at MDR are up to. Back in Lumen, Heli is scrambling to meet quota. John, did you have any personal theories while we were shooting or otherwise about what the numbers are, what they mean, what they're for?

I would usually defer to Zack, and we'd have these discussions. But Zack, of course, Zack had all the theories.

Zack had all the theories.

All of those numbers, or was enamored of I had various theories, but obviously, like in anything, when you're in a factory, if you're counting and you're trying to get to a certain number, you may not know what that number actually means. But I would change it because I would talk to Zack. But I I thought that was something important, at least in the state that we were in, that they needed this information, that we were breaking down a certain statistic that they needed.

Yeah, you would think it's important.

I had various scenarios.

Yeah, and then when Heli hits 100%, there's the animated video of Keir Egan comes up, which is this really rudimentary video screen animation.

Like from Apple II era animation. Yes. That was Jeff Mann, who came on as a consultant who designed that.

I worked with him as a production designer over the years.Incredibly...Love Jeff. Yeah, very talented guy. Because it's actually interesting to me. I love, again, Irving's complete investment when he's watching the congratulatory silly little video as if you're meeting the Pope or something. I mean, it's so important.

That's this fascinating thing about this moment is that even though we're all banding together to rebel against this place, when this video plays, both Mark and especially Irving get really excited and have all this reverence for this guy in this video.

Yeah. Should we play that little moment? I knew you could do it, Heli R. Even in your darkest moments, I could see you arriving here. In refining your macro data file, you have brought glory to this company and to me, Keir Egan. I love you, but now I must away, for there are others who need me around the world. Goodbye, L-E-R, and thank you.

So Ben, that voice, it sounds familiar.

Yes.

Some guy. Yeah. Well, it's not the real Keir Egan because we hear the real Keir Egan recording in episode three in Pee Dee's head and in the perpetuity wing. But this is some actor that they hired to do the voice for the congratulatory animated video. Obviously, an out-of-work actor who needed the gig.

Really needed the work.

Probably a guy had a couple of callbacks for Severance, but couldn't get in. Sure.

That stuff really gets me, man. I don't know what it is. I just listen to it, I'm like, Yeah, wow. It just gets me.

But I also love at this point where Irving's arc really is, in my mind, a guy who's a true believer who becomes disillusioned or whatever it is that allows you to make that choice to to be a part of this insurrection, if you will. Yeah.

But you're right. It's a much tougher armor to pierce with Irving.

Yeah. I think it's because what happens personally to him just sends him...

Yeah.

This is what happens to people sometimes who believe so much in something, and then they get really disappointed and really let down. That was a challenging thing to do. I I enjoyed doing it, but it was challenging.

Yeah. All right, let's take a quick break, and we'll get into the Waffle Party when we come back.

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I just have to say, Adam, the moment that starts that scene with you and Patricia, the laughing. You're laughing about something that was said right before the scene starts. I remember we did it a few times, but there was one where we said, Let's just try one where you laugh for way too long and just keep the uncomfortable laughing going with each other. We used every second of it in the cut. I love that. It's just so uncomfortable and weird and forced camaraderie or whatever it is. You have your agenda, you know what you're doing. She's always sussing you out, too. And the two of you are just in your own worlds. But then, yeah, it's great.

Yeah, watching it back, I had forgotten just how much laughing there was. It just kept in there.

I remember. It's kept in there. I remember. It was really fun. I remember, we literally used every single second of it, and it's great. And then she says, yeah, you tell her you want Dylan to take the Waffle party because that's part of the plan.

Yeah. Yeah. She's like, you can choose yourself if you want. We're starting at the idea that the Waffle Party is a coveted event, and why would you choose someone else to do this? And so Mark's covering and just trying to convince her that Dylan deserves it because he's been working so hard.

That's also one of the phrases, a Waffle Party, that Dan created along with Inny and Outie and all those things that feel so specific to the show. I remember when the show finally went out into the world after working on it for a couple of years, hearing people talking about a Waffle Party as some like, What is a Waffle Party? We've been talking about the Waffle Party earlier in the show, but then I remember thinking like, Okay, what is the Waffle Party? Dan and I had conversations about, How far do you go with a Waffle Party, and what should that be? It's the ultimate perk, right? Yeah.

It's what everything is leading to.

Yeah. He wants his Waffle party. I mean, everybody wants their Waffle party. When we got to that point of having to visualize it and figure out what it was going to be, I knew that it had to involve an actual Waffle, of course. There would be Waffle. Then there would be some other element of other perks that were... It's obviously there's these dancers come in, and that whole... Just us figuring out how to choreograph that, how of seductive it would be, how risque, what was it insinuating. That was an inflection point, I remember, because it's almost like one of the first questions we had to answer that we'd put out there in terms of, you could just be thinking forever, what is a Waffle party? But we had to somehow show it. I remember being a little bit concerned that people, again, would buy it, would feel like that's okay. Is that too weird? Is it too Is it inappropriate? I don't know. The whole thing is just so... Well, it does have a real sexual charge to it.

It has a very risque overall tone to it. I always thought of it as you toil away for this whole time, and then you meet quotas, so you get this reward. And since the entire place and the entire culture of Lumen is devoid of any affection or anything that is even anywhere near sex or anything, but these are feelings that all of them probably have and don't understand this is the ultimate reward that they can engage and just let themselves be a part of this. Is that in the realm of what you guys were thinking?

I thought so. I thought that would be part of it, these human instincts that they're deprived I mean, that's a big part of the Bert and Irving relationship, I think, too, is there's two moments between you, the first time when you go to O&D and Bert touches your hand and Irving gets a little bit freaked out by it and leaves. Then the second time when you're back at O&D and you move to touch his hand, and then in the moment in six that Efa directed so well between the two you in the plant room, that energy.

I think if you're starved for any connection, these things, rituals take on a stronger resonance. Obviously, other people do, too. That's what happens when you deny someone, whatever state they're in.

In a prison story, too, same thing. Yeah.

It It's also interesting that there's a sexual charge to the dance, but the dance also has a dangerous feeling to it. It's almost like, be careful. Here you go, but you need to move with caution as well.

Yeah. These dancers, we tried to figure out how to visualize this thing, and we worked with a great choreographer named Tara Rodriguez, who really came up with this very unique dance that embodied all the weirdness that we were looking for.

And the masks. Do you want to talk about the masks that they're wearing, Ben?

I guess we could. I mean, they're so weird. Or should we not? They're so weird. Whenever I know, I hadn't watched 8 for a while when I watched it for this. For a second, I had forgotten that Dylan had the Keir Egan mask waiting for him on the bed, which just not having watched it for a couple of years, we really went for it in terms of just the weirdness of this whole whatever this ritual was going to be that he ends up walking out on. But the masks were made by this artist that we work with on the show named Planko Patekanov, who is just incredibly talented. I remember we were shooting, John, I'm sure you remember this location. We shot the Keir Egan replica house house in a real old Victorian house in Yonkers, New York, that is part of the Hudson River Museum. We shot there. We shot everything we were going to shoot there for the whole series. The first, I guess, episode three, all those scenes we shot there in the same couple of days that we shot for episode 8. We didn't get to, and I think you probably had gone home by that point, John, but it was the last night we were there, and I think it was like one or two in the morning that we finally got to shooting the Waffle Party dance.

The dancers had been waiting all day, and we were at the very end of our schedule, and we had to get it done. I remember we only had a few takes to get it done, and those dancers came in and they nailed it. They were so good, and they were so prepared. It was really that energy of like, Okay, we got to get this, and they're going to kick us out of here in half an hour. It was really exciting and fun.

Yeah, I was wrapped, and I stayed to watch the Waffle Party, and it was incredible. They were so on point. It was really impressive.

Yeah, I think they were going to kick us out of there because the Gilded Age was shooting there the next day or something. Is that right?

Yeah. I saw a rehearsal of it. I remember thinking, wow.

Anyway, that was a really fun, weird scene. Having not watched it for a while, I was like, Oh, yeah, this is weird. A little bit out there.

Should we talk about the egg party Yes.

I mean, this is basically the celebration for reaching 100 %, and Dylan is going to go get his Waffle Party, but they have a pre Waffle Party egg mixer. Social type of thing. Yeah. What always makes me laugh about this every time I watch it is that the party consists of the same four people who've just been working together. It's just they change the lights, they put on some some Tiki music. It's just the four of you having to hang out with each other. And yet it is like a party because you split off into groups.

But now with eggs.

I am not an egg person. Do you like eggs, John?

I do, but I don't like to hold them in my hand.

But they came in.

But I like to make different omelets and things like that.

Kat Miller, our props master, she came in with as a food stylist and created these crazy different egg concoctions. It's like a giant devled egg within an egg. Scotch eggs. Yeah, I like that. Oh, my God.

I like devled eggs.

Well, that worked for you for the scene because I was staying as far away as possible during shooting.

Yeah, you really don't like eggs.

I have no problem, and Christine will make fun of me. I have no problem with eggs in something I eat. It's just the actual... I don't want to eat an egg on its own. You can put in a cake batter. I'm not vegan. I just don't like the actual egg situation. But that party is like everybody starts going off into groups, which is basically Heli and Dylan are walking, and then Irving goes over to the Keir Egan portrait, and you have this... How would you describe it? It's a private moment where you...

It's like a reverse prayer. It's almost like what you normally to pray or something. Then I guess I put the egg inside of the manual, the book, where all the laws are, the Bible of Lumen, and then crush it. I remember I was holding that egg for a long time. It's part of his rebellion.

Yeah. That's a turning point for Irving. I guess we had the turning point earlier in seven where Irving says, Let's burn this place to the ground. But But this is the next nail in the coffin where almost directly to Keir Egan's face, you defy him.

Yeah.

Keir Egan, the actor you cast, that's genius.

He's great.

I'm in the show and I saw it and I was like, Oh, my God, no wonder I was a believer. You know what I mean?

He's amazing. He's amazing. His name is Mark Geller. Yeah, Mark Geller. Bravo. He's so much a part of the show and so committed to the show, and he's just great. But yeah, the Waffle Party, pre Waffle Party, egg social is also where Mark and Heli connect with each other and have a final check-in before the plan goes into action.

Yeah, That's the first time we let each other know that we have feelings for each other.

This is where everybody does the gut check and says, All right, let's go, and all systems go, and are we all still up for this? Let's take a listen to that.

Now, look, it's likely we'll all wake up around people, could be driving or skiing, whatever we do up there. So be ready for anything as you go up the elevator, okay? The important thing is you find someone. It seems you can trust and you tell them everything.

We don't know how long Dylan will be able to give us, so we can't get distracted digging into our lives. Right.

The mission was the priority.

I probably should have told you guys. But I... I kept this. And there was a part of it that...

Well...

Our job is to taste free air. You're a so-called boss, me on the clock that taunts you from the wall. But my friends, the hour is yours.

But you're doing 97 slaps.

It's so much fun watching Irving now on the other side of this big betrayal have such a shift in tone from those 107 scenes in the closet when he was just appalled by these burgeoning plans and feelings that everyone was having about Lumen. What happens next, Ben?

Basically, everybody goes, you go to the elevator, you say what could be your goodbye to the group, which is Let's find out what's for dinner, which is... I always thought that was Irving's catchphrase, right?

Yeah, what's for dinner? That scene in the first episode was really one of my favorite scenes when I read that, that made me want to the show, too, was that whole interchange about breaking down what that meant when Irving says, Hey, kids, what's for dinner?

Because it means you're the worst dad in the world if you're asking your kids, What's for dinner? Anyway, it was so funny. You all go up, and then Dylan is left in the control room, security room, and has to figure out how to basically turn these two knobs that are going to activate the overtime contingency. It's very, very tense, and we build up to it, and then the episode ends right when he hits the switch, and we don't know what's going to happen.

Yeah, it's the cliffhanger before the cliffhanger. At one point, Ben, I think I remember you mentioning, is this cliffhanger going to be too suspensful for us to then follow it with one? The next one needs to be.

I remember when we-I don't know if you're trying to balance. Yes. I remember when we edited the episode, I was like, Oh, this is a cliffhanger I hope the next cliffhanger tops that cliffhanger because this is like a real cliffhanger. Then, of course, nobody ever really talked about the episode 8 cliffhanger because they felt the episode 9 cliffhanger was the real cliffhanger.

Yeah, but it's embedded in it.

Yes, for sure. It's also like, I feel like that basic idea when you do a television show, too, is like you want people to want to watch the next episode. You want to keep the story engaging.

Hey, John, I just wanted to ask you, Irving and Dylan have such an fun rapport and relationship. I just wanted to ask you about working with Zack real quick.

I have to say Zack is a big surprise. I said this to Ben, too. I know we're not supposed to talk about season 2, whatever, but to see Zack blossom him. At first I thought, Well, he's this really funny guy. Then he has all this other dimension to him as an actor and Dylan as a character. One of my favorite things is when he explodes and he bites Milchick. I don't know why, but it did It makes me laugh because it's a rebellion. But I really think Zack is a special guy. It's hard not to really, really want to put your arms around him. And I think his character is really interesting where he's going and that Ben gave him this opportunity. I think there are directors who do that. They see people and they put them there. And the same thing with Brit. I think Ben has a great eye for that. I have to say, I was really impressed. He surprised me in a lot of different ways, pleasantly. I think he's a terrific part of the show.

First of all, I think as actors, we all have that thing where there's a director who is willing to give you a shot in some way. But I wasn't giving Zack a shot because he's incredibly accomplished actor, comedic actor, but we've talked about it. He didn't really have material like this that he'd worked on before. But the fun thing for me was knowing who Zack is and knowing who you are. I was just saying, Okay, Zack Cherry. He's going to be sitting next to John Tutturo. What's going to happen here? I think over the course of the eight or nine months of shooting, a lot of great stuff happened there that I never in a million years would have imagined. I love the relationship between you two.

It's a pleasure, really.

That brings us to the end of episode 8 of the Severance podcast with Ben and Adam. What's for dinner?

John, thanks, man. This was...

Thank you. That was so much fun talking to you about this stuff.

Next one, we'll talk about the Nicks, and we'll see where we are at that point. Okay.

The Severance podcast with Ben Stiller Adam Scott is a presentation of Odyssey, Pineapple Street Studios, Red Hour Productions, and Great Scott Productions.

If you like the show, be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or your other podcast platform of choice. Our executive producers are Barry Finkl, Henry Malowski, Jenna Weis-Burman, and Leah Reece Dennis. The show is produced by Zandra Ellen and Naomi Scott. This episode was mixed and mastered by Chris Baisal. We have additional engineering from Javi Krussis and Davie Sumner.

Show clips are courtesy of Fifth Season. Music by Theodore Shapiro. Special thanks to the team at Odyssey, Maura Curran, Eric Donnelly, Michael Lavey, Melissa Wester, Matt Casey, Kate Rose, Kurt Courtney, and Hillary Shuff.

And the team at Red Hour, John Lesher, Carolina Pesecov, Jean Pablo Antanetti, Martin Valdiruten, Ashwin Ramesh, Maria Noto, John Baker, and Oliver Agger.

And at Great Scott, Kevin Cotter, Josh Martin, and Christie Smith at Rise Management.

We also had additional production help from Gabriele Lewis, Ben Goldberg, Stephen Key, Kristen Torres, Emmanuel Hapsis, Maria Alexa Cavenagh, and Melissa Slaater.

I'm Adam Scott.

I'm Ben Stiller.

We will see you next time.

Hey, Adam. Yeah. Is your experience experience at work a bit dysfunctional lately? I don't know.

I think it's...

Okay, I'll take that as a yes. Your team could undergo a highly controversial surgical procedure that would mercifully sever any and all memories of that work experience from your home lives. Or you could try Confluence by Atlassian.

Oh, my God. Well, if it's a choice between those two things, I think I would 100% choose Confluence by Atlassian.

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That would equal out, if we're playing with, let's just say 100%, 5.2 of those percentage points, that's the improvement.

I mean, I'm not great at math, but that sounds very close.

Well, I'm doing the math in my head right now as we speak, and I think that's great.

Why not keep your team unsevered? In Confluence, the connected workspace where teams can do it all. Set knowledge free with Confluence. Learn more at atlassian. Com/confluence. That's atlassian. Com/confluencie.