Transcript of S1EP6: Hide and Seek (with Geoff Richman)

This episode of the severance podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is brought to you by Confluence by Atlassian, the connected workspace where teams can create, organize, and deliver work like never before. Set knowledge free with Confluence. Hi. I'm Ben Stiller. I'm Adam Scott.

And this is the Severance podcast with Ben and Adam where we break down every single episode of Severance.

Today, we're recapping season 1 episode 6, hide and seek, written by Amanda Overton and directed by Aoife McCardell. Ben, before we jump in, how are things?

I'm feeling good. I'm feeling good. I feel like we're, you know, at episode 6. So we kind of, you know, we're going into the sort of the the back half of the season here as we retrace our our steps and our experience as we explore the past, the recent past that in a weird way, having been working on season 2, I feel like we're a little bit disconnected from the process of making season 1. Yeah.

I feel like season 2 is so fresh in my mind. But I think what I'm excited about today is that we have our editor, Jeff Richmond, with us, who I consider to be a repository of all knowledge and memories. And he just has a mind that just will remember everything that happened.

Yeah. Jeff Jeff is incredible. And I I gotta say there were a couple moments. I feel similarly that it's been so long since we made season 1 and we're really deep into it that there were a couple moments watching this hide and seek where I just got really excited. I had forgotten these, like, big moments and these kind of rousing moments and, like, us all walking down the hall together and saw these, like, relatively you know, when you look at the macro, it's a relatively small moment and small move.

But in this world, it's a huge deal, and I just got so excited for these characters. And it's just been fun going through it. And and we're at episode 6 now, which means we're getting closer and closer to season 2 coming out, which is exciting.

January 17th.

Yeah. That's

right. Very exciting. And and Jeff is here. And I just just by way of introduction, Jeff and I met because we did Escape at Dannemora together. Jeff's been nominated for an Emmy 3 times, twice for severance, and another time for Tiger King, which I didn't even realize.

Wow. Jeff, when did you do Tiger King?

That was oh my god. The years are blurring together. I,

I've just said you have an incredible memory, and you're a repository for all

knowledge. This is this is me putting the kibosh on that right away, so we don't I came on to the Tiger King was being edited for years, and I came on in, like, the last, I don't know, like, handful of months of the edit. So it was the end of 2019 that I was working on Tiger King.

So so, Jeff, I I met you when we started doing Escape at Dannemora, but you have done a lot of projects over the years as an editor. You have worked in documentaries a lot. You edited The Cove. Mhmm. Correct?

Yeah. That's right.

Academy Award winning documentary that I think is 1 1 of the best documentaries I've seen. Fisher Stevens produced, and I was very happy that when we met. And I I think I think it was Fisher and and you've worked also with Mike Birbiglia.

Yeah. That's right.

That's right. And Fisher and both Fisher and Mike recommended recommended you when when we were doing Escape, and we've been working together pretty much ever since. And I could you explain to people what it is, what your responsibilities as an editor are for people who don't know how how it works and, you know, putting together a show?

Bay I mean, basically, it's sort of like the last step in the, like, storytelling process where we're taking the writing, the performances, the camerawork, the lighting, the sound effects, the music, and kinda, like, putting it all together so that the story unfolds in the best way possible. That's sort of the simple version, but then there's, like, the there's sort of, like, the side of editing that's hard to describe even, like, while you're doing it, which is the effect of, like, putting shots together in a certain order with a certain rhythm or putting scenes in a certain order that creates a feeling that was never there before. And that's that's the process. It's sort of, like, finding the best way to put these performances and these scenes in an order that creates a feeling that you're going for so that you're invested with the characters and that you're feeling what they're feeling and you're absorbed in the world of the story.

Yeah. So you're either creating something that wasn't there or replicating something that was there and making sure it feels how you guys want it to feel and look and everything. It's taking everything, gathering it, and and turning it into 1 thing, essentially.

Yeah. I mean, that's a big part of the thing is, like, you read something on the page, and you feel something when you're reading it, and then you put it up on screen in a certain way, and it just doesn't have the feeling that you want. So a big part of the process is discovering the ways to cut it so that it brings out the feeling that you're trying to go for. And some of that is trial and error. And, like, it's sort of this weird mysterious effect of juxtaposing shots or scenes in a certain way that just creates a spark or a feeling that you just can't always predict.

So it's it's a fun that's the fun part of the process.

The director editor relationship, I think, is such a specific and unique 1. I I I think when you're making something, as a director in the beginning, it's sort of 3 phases, and you have the prep where you're getting ready to shoot that goes on for months months months, then you have the shooting period, which goes on for months months months, and then you have the editing period, which also goes on for a long time. And during those different phases, as a director, you're bonding, I think, with different people in the process along the way. In the prep phase, I find you're bonding with a production designer first because you have to really be talking about these environments and these sets and the look of what you're gonna be filming. And then as you go into shooting, you're really connecting with your cinematographer because you have to work every day together to get these shots.

And then finally, when you finish the shoot, you are in the room with the editor and and and that's the final sort of phase where you are putting it all together as you were saying. And that relationship is just so I I think it's a very sensitive 1, at least from my point of view, because you're in a room and by the way, we you know, post COVID, we did a lot of editing remotely on the show where I'd be home, you'd be home, and we'd be going through a server, but we wouldn't be in the same place. But we've gotten used to editing remotely together. But you have to have a first of all, the, like, the ability just to be with somebody for a long period of time.

That's, like, 1 of the

main things. Right? I mean, yeah.

It's it's a pretty it's, like, a very intimate, safe place. I mean, especially, like, for you coming from set where, like, it's just a lot of stress and a lot of, like, there's, like, a ticking clock all the time. And I think, like, the editing room just is this place where you can kind of put that aside and just, like, focus on, like, trying different things and experimenting and, like, it's okay to mess up and, like, there's just it's just a different sort of comfort level that I think that you have in the editing room.

It's where you're aiming to get to when you're making a movie or a show. You're aiming to get to the editing room, at least how I feel. And you wanna arm yourself with enough pieces, shots to create scenes and sequences so that when you get to the editing room, the editor will look at you and go, okay. You know, I had a lot of fun playing around with this. You don't want the editor to look and go like, I wish I had a shot of Mark opening that door.

You know? And that's that's and and, you know, when you're making it too, you you you'll call up sometimes when you see the dailies or say like, hey. I didn't see a shot of Mark opening the door. And then, you know, oh, yeah. We didn't get that.

We have to get it. But for me, it's it really is my favorite part of the process. I think sitting in an editing room, with you working on something that we've been working on with no time pressure that, like, you have on a set of other, you know, having a 150 people on the clock and all those things. It's just it's very it's a very, like you said, warm space. And I I think that it's so much fun to put this stuff together and to figure out what the feeling is of the scene and the music and the performance and going through performance and figuring out the pacing and the tone and all of that stuff is really like what we spend a lot of time doing.

What is it about this particular director editor relationship? Why does it work so well?

For me, I think it's like there there is something that you just gained by working together for a certain number of years, like a level of, like, trust in like, the other person's you you have sort of the similar sensibilities, so you kind of develop a shorthand. And there's also, like, the trust in knowing that you can kind of go down different roads and that you're all still sort of going towards the same place. Like, you're still you're all working on the same film or the same show or the same story, and, there's, like, a connection that allows you to be a little bit more free and, like, experiment more so that when Ben says he's thinking of a scene in a certain way, I assume he understand he knows that I know what he means by that. I mean, I'm speaking for you now, but it doesn't scare you if you see 5 out of the 6 things not hitting the mark because it's like you understand what that the intention is there and that we're sort of speaking the same language.

Yeah. Yeah. And and that process, I think, is is so important to try things. And when you're in sync with each other, it's great, but you're also questioning each other too. And those questions can be talked about in theory or you can just try them.

And I've always been much better at just trying something as opposed to talking about the theory of, like, well, maybe we shouldn't cut to Mark opening the door there because it'd be more interesting to see Cobell just watching him. You could talk about that for 5 minutes or Jeff could just literally do it in, like, 5 seconds, and then you can look at it and see. And a lot of editors I found like to talk about stuff and and, you know, or theorize. And I and for me, it's like, well, let's just let's just actually do it. And the 1 thing I'll say about you, Jeff, without trying to, you know, embarrassing you or anything, but, like, technically, what I think is so amazing about Jeff is he's so technically proficient, and creatively thoughtful that I'm thinking about an idea in a creative way, but Jeff knows how to translate that technically into trying these incredibly complicated things sometimes in terms of music and sound and imagery.

And Yeah. And now Teddy Teddy and Jeff have been working together for, you know, 5 years on the show now too. So they really have a great, shorthand and way of of Teddy being able to deliver music and Jeff being able to sort of separate out some of the tracks. They're called stems, and they and he can use, like, maybe just a 1 1 element or take out, you know, maybe, like, the low end sound or there's, like, some sort of other instrument that he can experiment with to create a feeling.

So you and Teddy have this other relationship where you're trusting each other and and are kind of creatively aligned as well.

Yeah. I mean and and that's like that is the same thing. It kind of have built up over time as sort of, like, we can sort of, like he can send a cue that maybe isn't working the way that we want it to for the scene. And, like, it's easy to have a conversation where it's not like this doesn't work. This doesn't work.

Like, it's more like just talking about, like, where it falls apart, and there's, like, an instant understanding. Like, oh, I get what you're saying. Oh, yeah. It was working up to this point. And by saying this is where it falls apart, I completely understand now what's not working and what you're what you're actually going for.

And it's it's that's sort of a, like, just sort of a synchronicity that's built up over time.

And a lack of ego too, I think, in the work because at this point, everybody's you know, we all are headed towards the same goal. We there's no question about what whether somebody's doing something that's that's good or not, and it's all you know, we're all just sort of, like, trying to work towards the same end. But, Jeff, you have always wanted to be an editor. Just before we start talking about the episode, I was curious, like, how you came to this and what made you wanna do this?

I did. I mean, I was editing together, like, movies, like, with 2 VCRs in my bedroom growing up. And, like, I went to NYU film school and sort of, like, entering the film school as I would've had this idea of, like, I'll direct and write. But then very quickly just started editing my own films and my friends' films and just kind of being an editor. And when by the time I came out of school, that's all I was doing.

I remember the 2 VCR editing. That was Yeah. It's really hard.

Getting the, like, record and the play pause and hitting it so that they start. Yeah.

Yeah. I the 1 of the first things I ever edited that I showed to people after I was a kid, I did that when I was about 20 years old on 2 VCRs. I mean, we lived in that era of I mean, it's the severance era, really. Right? I mean, in terms of the technology a little bit.

Where you had see the little glitch on every cut because it doesn't yeah.

And what do what do you think is the most important thing to know as an editor? Like, what is the most important element of being a good editor in your mind?

I think the biggest thing you learn over time is the process. It's sort of like the film and the project could be different drastically, but the process sort of stays the same where it's like you have to know that it's okay not to know where you're going. That's like you have to keep trying different things. You keep you building the parts. You're putting together in the way that you think works best in that moment, knowing that when you put it together, you're just gonna discover what doesn't work about it and then move forward from there.

And I think, like, the more you do it, the less disheartened you get when things are not playing the way you wanted them to because that's just that's the process.

By the way, I feel like that's very akin to what directing is too is being aware in the moment of what's working and what isn't working and adjusting from there. I also think you think as a writer, as an editor too a lot. I mean, you're very aware besides just the technical aspects of how a scene is working or not, just in terms of the story. And I think that's incredibly important as an editor of of movies or or television shows of being able to track the story and really how where you are in the story affects what the scene is in terms of how you play the scene, in terms of pacing, in terms of the choices of of what the scene feels like. All of that has is fit into a context that's already there that really affects what that scene is gonna be.

Oh, and context is everything. Because you can have a scene that's brilliantly put together that falls completely flat if it's in the wrong context. And that's like, it's all about the structure of the episode or whatever. I mean, it's that's every scene is is handing off a feeling to the next scene, and that's plays a huge part in the process.

Yeah. Just to, like, reiterate what Ben was saying, Jeff, is I found that you're so creatively engaged in the show that, like, going into season 2, just having general story conversations, it was always additive and valuable to have you be a part of those conversations too because you just have such a sense of the big macro view of the show, but also just the feelings inside the show and how it looked and just everything. So, yeah, you're you're a huge part of it.

It it was it was really fun to be part of the those conversations.

As an editor, that's, an advantage also in a way because you're experiencing everything without the context of of what the conversations on set and what we're, you know, and seeing what's going on. You're just getting this raw footage and, you know, knowing what the script is and you're looking at it and going like, okay. Is this making sense for me? What not being in those conversations and being a part of that making of it and that and that's really important because you're really the audience. You're the first audience.

Yeah. It doesn't matter, like, how much money or time was put into a shot. It's either either it works or it doesn't work. And so if you see that

Which can be very frustrating sometimes when you put a lot of time and money into a shot and Jeff is like, yeah. But it doesn't work. Yeah.

And, Jeff, before we jump into the episode, was there anything particularly challenging about episode 6 that you remember when you guys were cutting it together?

I I think it's actually what we were just talking about. It's like finding the right sequence to create that build. Like, when you look at episode 6 now, it's like it's a it seems like a pretty straight line for certainly the first half of the episode. And then the second half, it's just like everything sort of feels like it organically hands off from 1 thing to the next. But I can remember, like, me and Erica, the other editor on the show, that was something we worked a lot at trying to find the right order of things and the right way to present things so that it has that effect.

Yeah. I think it's important to talk about that too as we go along because for people who are fans of the show or, you know, and you see you go, okay. I really like that show. Just to know that the process on making something like this, it it's not it's not simple always and and there's a lot of trial and error. And I think something can be written really well, but when you actually see it filmed and you do the scene, sometimes in a show like this where the tone is always sort of something that we're defining and the story we're trying to be both mysterious and also move it forward, that there you have to figure that out as you go along, and it it can be a messy process sometimes in terms of creatively, you know, which is okay.

And we'll be right back. At Lumen, things are not always what they seem. Mark, Dylan, Helly, and Irving in MDR make a great team, but what else lies beyond the 4 white walls of their department? There seem to be more questions than answers as the secrets of Lumen are slowly revealed.

There's definitely a lot more going on than you see. It's a little bit creepy.

I agree. There are more q's than a's in this place.

Yeah. For sure.

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For the past 3 seasons of Gone South, we've covered 1 story per season. We tried to figure out who killed Margaret Coon.

She told me I'm gonna kill you? I said, well, do it, bitch. Go ahead and do it.

We delved into the violent world of the Dixie Mafia.

I'm an outlaw and I was a thief, but I'm far from being the psychotic nutcase that I've been made out to be.

And we tracked a serial killer in Laredo, Texas.

Just turn around. Please. Turn around. Hey. Hey.

Hey. Hey.

Now, Gone South is back for a 4th season. But this time, we're doing things a little differently. So, in Gone South season 4, we'll be bringing you new stories every week with no end in sight. I'm Jed Lipinski. Welcome back to Gone South, an Odysee original podcast.

Listen and follow now on the free Odysee app or wherever you get your podcasts for new episodes every week.

Okay. So we begin episode 6 in the home of missus Selvig. We learned that she's living in the basement and in a very austere sort of, kind of a fifties military hospital like bed, and we see this shrine, the shrine to Kier, which, you know, this was fun because a lot of fans, have really pulled out the specifics of what's in this shrine and so is Cat Miller, our props master. And at the time also Jeff Mann was involved in this in terms of creating what this would be and what information we would give the audience. Not really knowing that people would delve so deeply into this, but, you know, kind of hoping people would.

But but some of the things that are in the shrine, Adam.

Yeah. There's a bunch of stuff. There is a portrait of Kier. There is a canister of Lumen Industries' topical salve. There's a photo of a young Cobell outside the Myrtle Egan School for Girls.

There are framed awards that Cobell won for being the, quote, most observant and for best use of mealtime condiments, a tube that says Charlotte Cobell, date of birth 3/17/44, A model of a building, an old Lumen poster that's a visual depiction of work life balance that also says, imagine yourself as a seesaw. Do not allow yourself to snap between the weight of your stressful and unbalanced life.

Isn't that something you say to her in that first episode, Adam?

Yeah. I say When you're

when you're doing the intake with her?

I'm trying to get back on track with Helly, and I say, imagine yourself as a seesaw, and then she grabs the book away from me.

Right. Right. Yeah. So this

is all really interesting. The tube, I think it's a tube, like a breathing tube, but then kind of wrapped around it is a a hospital bracelet that says Charlotte Cobell, DOB 3 1744. So we don't know exactly who this is, although, obviously, they have the same surname as Harmony.

Yep. Yeah. There's some interesting little tidbits in that shrine, and you get the sense that this is, you know, her private space where she where she prays and where she kind of meditates, on on her connection to Kier. And at the same time as we're seeing all that, we're also getting this call from Greiner, who's letting her know that he's tracked the chip to Regabi. And then, you know, we're sort of kicked off into the episode.

I mean, I feel like Cobell's secret life or her personal life is something that it's very to me, it's it's always interesting, you know, what her actual home life is, why is she being missus Selvig, and it's something that we don't ever really give too many clear answers to. I think it's important though that you you know that what she's doing is obviously something that's like her own mission. And I think we get the feeling that she's kind of doing this outside of what, you know, her actual official duties are.

So it does seem like she's living down in this space. Right? Does that mean that everything up above is somewhat of a model home, just somewhat of a performance as Selvig and this is her real living space?

That was my feeling Mhmm. Is that it's this is sort of an interesting reveal that she's kind of created this very almost esthetic simple kind of almost monk like situation down there. Obviously, we've seen the kitchen upstairs, which is a mess. So she's not really That's right. I I think the yeah.

It the like, why would she be living alone in that townhouse in the basement other than that's where she feels most comfortable? And and I think we're trying to, you know, tell the audience something about her inner life and her private sort of devotion to Kier and to to Lumen in a in a way too. I mean, it's Lumen and Kier are kind of, connected, but I think that's also a question that comes up during the season is, you know, her devotion to Kier versus her devotion to the company or her loyalty to the company. Interesting question that we're always thinking about. But I guess, tonally, when you go from something like this to the next next scene, you know, just in terms of transitions, and I think that's something that is really important in the editing of a show or a movie are the transitions.

And this transition that goes from here to then Mark finding, going to the phone in his basement, in a way, the transition there is kind of almost like a corollary from basement to basement. Yeah. And do you think about that, Jeff? You wanna talk about, like, the just like the difference in types of transitions that we do in the show?

Yeah. Yeah. Of course. I mean, it's like it's all about, like, trying to feel like you're in, like, a run of an idea. So go bail in the basement, and then the next scene we see is Mark in the basement.

Just sort of has this feeling of connective tissue. They're completely different scenes, and we're following completely different threads, but there's just this feeling of connection. And then when Mark drives off for work, we arrive at Lumen, and that sort of feels like it's handing off to this early morning meeting, in the Ficus room with Bert and Irving. And that I actually I remember us trying lots of different combinations in that sequence of scenes up through the kitchenette scene. Because the Burton Irving scene, you actually used to fall later in the episode and just sort of figuring out a way to kind of enter the story as, like, this creepy moment with Cobell.

And then we have to sort of re we we had to reconnect with the phone story thread and then sort of feeling like we're just starting the day. And so we pulled up Burton Irving early because it just sort of felt like like an early meeting. And then once we're in the kitchenette, that kinda, like, kicks us off on this very straight line of where's miss Casey to the confrontation with Cobell and all that comes after it. And so putting Burton Irving earlier kind of served a couple purposes, both tonally and just sort of, like, what it provided for the other scenes. Yeah.

I mean, don't forget the actual the Cobell scene used to be the end of episode 5, actually.

Alright. That's right.

Yeah. And that was we had such a great moment in the o and d with Dylan and Irving arriving there that that became the end of the episode, and that bumped Cobell to the next episode, which when you watch it now, it's like, oh, obviously, it's such a great creepy cold open, but that was not the original placement of that.

That's right. That's right. And that's something that we we do quite often is reorder scenes sometimes, or sometimes take a scene from 1 episode and maybe put it into another. I mean, it it doesn't happen a lot, and it's never really the plan, but that is part of this process of telling the whole story over the course of a season. And it's again coming back to that thing of even if something on the page seems like, okay, that's the end, you know, that's the cliffhanger to the next episode.

If it doesn't quite feel right, we have that ability, especially since we're editing all the episodes before we put the whole thing out, that we can still look at everything as a whole and go, wait a minute. You know, it feels like in 5 and 6 here that we're missing something to draw people to the next episode, or there's too much information here. So, you know, that's that's something that you have to feel free to try and do. And I I had not thought about that too, but that was I remember that was a big deal for us.

I mean and that produced 1 of the best cues that Teddy ever wrote, which is sort of that coming off of Bert's face. You know, that, like, like, such a great cue that we use other places now. And that was because there was such a feeling of, like, there they come to o and d and that feeling of just arriving there, this new space, and that kicks off the credits, and it just felt great.

And I always come back to that. It's like 1 of the obvious things, but that I learned even working with you on Dannemora is just how important it is to have the end of the episode wanna lead you into the next episode. Whatever that, you know, version of a cliffhanger or just thought or idea that you want the answer to is gonna just pull you to the next to wanna watch it again.

I will just say real quick that I think the kitchen scene is really important because it's the first time Dylan really flags something going on between Mark and Helly. And you really see Helly's behavior towards Mark really, like, taking him aback. And he'd I feel like it's like the moment where, like, elementary school feelings, like, I don't know what this is, but I like it a lot sort of thing.

You know? Yeah. She's paying attention to you. She's kind of flirting with you, but but, like, but kinda like a tomboy

Yes.

In a way. And and it's so obvious.

And Dylan's like, dude, what are what's going on?

Yeah. She's full on, like, firebrand Helly. Yep. And, yeah, it's exciting. And she says, like, the impression of you is like, that sounds just like me.

Yeah. Yeah. And then you're saying praise Keir on the way out the door is just like the cherry on top. Just like, oh, he's completely caught up in this.

Yeah. And then yeah. She sort of gets you a little bit riled up.

Mhmm.

So then go and see Cobell. Right. And then so you're, like, sort of like the kid in the classroom who started to feel his oats a little bit. And then then you get put right back in your place when you go in to see Cobell.

I push way too hard with Cobell, and it kinda blows up in my face a little bit.

Yeah. Yeah. And then I I I love that he he gets in trouble. So then Mark, you know, goes to Cobell's office because of, I guess, the bad behavior in the last episode, and she's giving him this lecture on accountability. And, you know, Mark, you're starting to feel I think, you know, this is to me, I in a way, I feel like this episode is sort of about the radicalization of Mark s.

For sure. And feelings for Helly start coming more to the surface.

But let's let's take a listen to this scene where Cobell sort of reams you out in her office.

It's not your job to play nursemaid to every new refiner.

Okay. So what is my job?

Are you really asking me that?

Yeah. What is it we actually do here?

We serve Kier, you child. And until you get that through your mildewed little brain and hit quota, MDR's hallway privileges are hereby revoked. So get your little ass back to your desk and stay there until you're told to move.

Wow. Yeah. What I remember about that scene when we were editing it it, Jeff, is that it was, you know, such a an intense moment and looking at Adam's reactions that, Adam, you were so sensitive and almost you're, like, you're almost on the verge of tears. It's almost like, like a kid being yelled at Yeah. Yeah.

By a by an adult, by a parent, or a teacher. For me, I mean, I I think we all probably have memories as a kid when you, you know, something like that happened to you, and you still feel it to

this day.

And I felt yeah. Yeah. I thought you did such a great job with that because

I I agree. Yeah. I mean, that those I those reaction shots were just so impactful, so intense. And, I mean, that those reaction shots carry the change the trajectory of the story. Like, that that is the moment.

I mean, all the scenes that come after it and things that come after that, kind of you could point to, like, this moment as a turning point. And the the reaction shot was just so strong.

Yeah. But I remember also just trying to figure out the modulation of it because if it was a full radicalization, it would be a little soon because it's episode 6. Right? So it needed to be, like you said, Bennett, needed to be like this admonishment from a parent. So by the time he gets back to the office, he yells at Irving for Exactly.

What happened. So he's Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of a a seesaw for lack of a better term. He's kind of ebbing back and forth in his allegiances and his mixed feelings about this place and isn't quite sure, but ultimately makes the decision he makes.

But it's not he's not fully in on kind of health.

Yeah. No. But I think across the episode, it starts to happen more and more. 100%. And I really do feel that moment is so much of a metaphor for how the sort of the the chain of command works somewhere.

We see you getting yelled at by your boss, and then you go back and you yell at Irving. And it's so clear that, you know, you're reacting to the humiliation that you just experienced

from

her and then passing it along. You know? Totally. And that always for me was such an illuminating moment of how that works.

And you see Irving react to me, and he's kind of startled and feels terrible. You know, it's just it's interesting.

Yeah. And then you kind of take that in and then you kind of change your attitude a little bit.

Yeah.

And then there's that moment where they all head to o and d and the music kicks in. It's a great cue. It's a great cue. I remember we sort of discovered that, Jeff, didn't we, in terms of, like, the structuring of the episode? That was 1 of the things that we were kinda playing around with.

Yeah. We we actually tried a lot of different music there and then ended up just like nothing was living up to the moment. And Teddy had to write a brand new cue that is just fantastic.

It's

great. Yeah. Just

for that moment. And it's I mean It's great.

It's almost like a it's it's like very percussive, and it's like almost like a marching, boom. And I think, you know, of course, then they go in and discover the back room area that Irving had peaked at before. And this is where we sort of begin to see the organization of the 2 departments, you know, making contact with each other even though they're both very skeptical of the other of the other. And I I really love just sort of when they're talking about what they're doing, their their their own questions about what they're doing, the o and d people. And and Chris Walken is is just so great as their

So great.

You know, as their leader. You wanna take a listen to that? Yeah.

Go on. Surely, you must have some questions for them. So it's called macro data refinement. What do you refine? Is that a watering can?

We think it might be supplies for the executive waiting upstairs. Then again, last week's outfit had more of an aggressive feel. The hatchets weren't aggressive.

Shh. Hatchets.

We've been trying to figure out how it all fits together. We found a, department the opposite way from here that's, well, raising baby goats.

Raising baby goats?

Just listening to that, I'm I'm taken by how much space and air there is between lines. We're not exactly a Howard Hawks movie on the show. Yeah.

That's Rachel Addington as Elizabeth and Claudia Robinson as Felicia. They're both great.

Yeah. And then so while that's happening, Dylan sort of sneaks off and steals a little card from 1 of the areas they've been making stuff. And it looks like an instructional sort of illustration from, like, maybe, like, a CPR or Heimlich maneuver poster or something. But instead, it seems almost vaguely violent. Like, in Yeah.

Like like, how to whip your arms around landing in a businessman's storm.

It's very weird.

Jeff, do you have any theories about what that is, what that card means?

What I was thinking while we were editing this is that it almost feels like Lumen's kinda like building an army. Like, because you got, like they're making hatchets and there's instructions on, like, self defense or something and it's it has sort of a weird militant kind of vibe to it.

Yeah. But, yeah, they're, like, dressed like businessmen in the cards.

Yes. I mean, everything is weird with Lumen.

I remember shooting this scene. I had this, like, the little speech at the end of the scene, and I was a little unsure about it. I just wasn't sure how to attack it and how to do it. So I asked if I could go last because we go through and and shoot everyone's singles throughout the day. You just kinda pop each person off throughout the day.

And I usually like to go last because I like to get as many runs at it before I'm on camera by myself, saying my lines. And so John thinks I'm crazy for wanting to do that because he likes to go early so he can have it be fresh and stuff, but I like to to to wait. Yeah.

I have to say that's kind of an interesting I know you obviously, I know you'd like it that way because we've been doing it for a while. And it's interesting because I think it's it's for me, if I did that, it's a little bit risky sometimes, I think, for could for me because I feel like sometimes you're out of gas by the end too. Not you, me. I would say you but you seem to do well with that.

Oh, no. It's backfired a few times. That's for sure.

But with this It's a strange thing with that, isn't it? Like, sometimes It is weird.

It's sort of kind of it's sort of rolling the dice a little bit, and especially with a scene like this because there's so many people to get singles of. But I was also freaked out because Christopher Walken was there and I had this, like, speech that wasn't long or anything, but it had to have a certain quality to it, and I wasn't sure how to do it. But throughout the day, we were doing it over and over again, and I finally thought I kinda figured it out. And finally, we do it and the scene's over. And I remember kind of feeling like it was okay, but I wasn't sure.

And walk in, walked by me. He kind of walked behind me as he was passing me. And as he did, he just grabbed my elbow and gave it a squeeze and kept going, and that was everything. That was all I needed.

It was incredible.

Just the best.

The best. Yeah. Yeah. That's the best. Alright.

Well, that feels like a good place to take a break, and we'll be right back after this.

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So basically, Miltrix shows up after that in the backroom at o and d, and then you guys all get in trouble with Cobell, and she sings to you Yeah. Which is 1 of my favorite Patricia moments. She sings the Keir hymn to you in a way that's, you know, meant to be punitive. And then

And then later hums it as she's comforting the baby.

Well, that's even weirder. Yes. Yes. I mean, that's full on hand that rocks the cradle. Yeah.

She's Rosemary's baby. It's all different things going on with her holding that baby. But then we see you in the Audi verse and you're on a date with Alexa and who's Devon's doula

and Nicky James.

Yeah. And and, you know, she's giving you a second chance. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

She's pretty kind, I think. Surprising. Based on the way you treated her. Yeah. When she notices your swollen knuckles, so we see that something happened in the break room maybe that involve your knuckles.

Yeah. And Mark Mark says it's some accident involving a water jug or at least that's what they tell me. So he seems to have some, awareness that there might be some bullshit coming his way from Lumen. At least that's the way he's playing it off to her.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's pretty weird and chilling that cut from your hand on the door to the break room to your your swollen knuckles. It's just an intonation that there's definitely some, you know, some sort of violent things

happening Yeah.

With you. So then you guys end up at a, like, a punk show in Kier, an outdoor punk show in Kier that June, PD's daughter, her band is playing at.

Yeah. I recognize her on a poster and for whatever reason, Mark wants to go to this. And it's sort of this weird need that brought him to Petey's funeral in the first place. He's just sort of drawn to this family. I think it's a bunch of mixed up feelings of guilt and all kinds of stuff that's sort of making him want to continue contact with this family.

And then you get to this punk show where the punk band is singing basically, like, the sort of anti Lumen song. Yeah. Fuck you, Lumen. Yeah. And this is to me also another place where we start to see you again getting more and more indoctrinated into this idea of being willing to, you know, kind of spend this is Audi Mark, but still it's like I I look at kind of both Audi Mark and Eddie Mark are going through this process Yeah.

Concurrently in different ways. But you're starting to be able to say out loud, fuck you, Lumen, in a group of people.

Yeah. It there's hints of it on the date when he seems self aware about Lumen and how kind of creepy it might be. And then, yeah, at this punk show, he's fully kind of starts yelling fuck you, Lumen. And I feel like part of it is you're there and you don't wanna seem uncool. So, of course, you're gonna say this, but I think there's something to it that he starts repeating it and Alexa and he start yelling it out loud, and it feels good for 1 reason or the other.

And you kind of connect over that really. Yeah. You end up going home together, which is you know, it feels like there's kind of a a little bit of a breakthrough there.

It's a big deal. It's a big deal for Audi Mark to be moving on like this. I think the rock show itself looks really cool, and this is something that I think shows get wrong or movies get wrong all the time of live music and kind of a punk band or whatever. Sometimes it just feels cheesy and off, but this has a really I always thought this felt authentic and and cool and had a real feeling to it.

Yeah. That was Aoife Aoife McCardell who directed the episode. She's from Ireland. She comes out of music videos and commercials. And I think it was very important for her to find a real band and to be able to just make sure all of the atmosphere, the people who were there at the concert felt authentic in this version of what a punk band in the town of Kyre would be in the world of our show.

And I love that sort of idea that there's this sort of cultural sort of awareness of severance and this kind of antipathy that's coming out in the rebellion that's happening within the culture towards towards severance.

I just love that side of the story. That's like like in the dinner scene in episode 1 or the whole mind collective, just the sense that it's there's a opinion about the severance procedure in the public, that it just makes the world so much bigger seeing it from that perspective.

Yeah. It's creating its own culture and its own backlash and all of this. And we should also say the great Cassidy Layton as as June.

It's terrific. Yes. Yes. She in the end, she's, like, playing, playing guitar and just really and Michael Caiozzo is the lead singer of the punk band. He's really good.

He's great. Yeah. And I think that's that's an important part of the world of the show is the awareness of severance in the society and in culture. And we've always talked about that a lot about how much to balance that in the story in terms of being the awareness of it in the world, but also not wanting to go down paths that would take us away from, you know, the core story of the characters. Because there's a version of it where you could really go and follow, you know, the state senator and what's going on and all of that.

And that's important, but at this point, we're really wanting to stay with Mark's story. And then we're in the closet and Milchik is is basically awakening Dylan's innie in Dylan's closet, which we see for the first time Dylan's Audi world in some way. We see a little kid watching television, watching a cartoon, and then all of a sudden Dylan is awake in his closet. And that's a very startling moment.

Dylan, I've awoken you at home. I need to know where you put it. Where I put what? The ideographic card you took from OND. I saw the footage of you taking it.

Did you smuggle it out? Is it here? Holy shit. Is this my house? Listen.

You have no idea how sensitive this information is. If someone paid you to smuggle out that card

No.

No. I just I I put it in the bathroom, second stall behind the toilet. Thank you. I didn't even know what it was. That's fine too.

Daddy. Daddy. What?

What the fuck? We told you to count to a 1,000 and went outside. That my kid. End it.

Count to a 1,000? Jesus.

That's probably why the kid came in because he couldn't get up to a1000.

Yeah. This is such an important scene. We learned that Dylan has a son that the card he took was incredibly important and sensitive, obviously, and that the severance transition can actually happen outside of the building. That's a huge, huge moment for all these reasons.

And it's very really jarring, I think, too because all of a sudden, like, there's this intense milkshake in his face, and it's just so disorienting. And of course, you know, this is a important story point that's gonna kick off a lot of events that that happened in in the last part of the season. But I just love this scene because it was so scary really that all of a sudden when something goes wrong, it kinda reminds me a little bit of when Greener finds Helly when she's trying to hang herself in the in the elevator and the way that he's kind of just like in this sort of like emergency mode of just sort of like getting Mark out of there. It's like when something goes bad in this world with this whole system at Lumen, it can get messy quickly and it can get very intense quickly. So it goes from like the nice kind of cool, calm milchick to, like, in super intense.

Yeah. Now, Ben and Jeff, can you walk us through putting this scene together and the challenges of making this scene work?

I think, like, it's important to keep in mind that you're in Dylan's perspective. And so the sort of very tight coverage staying very tight and sort of staying in Dylan's POV and only sort of revealing a wider shot for a moment, but it's, like, it's very much, like, claustrophobic and sort of, like, a where am I feeling that sort of kinda puts you in Dylan's head for this very mysterious new moment.

Also, Zach is doing such a good job in that scene of really just being overwhelmed with this space that he's in. Imagine, you know, Dylan is all of a sudden he's at probably in the elevator and then all of a sudden he's in his closet. And so he's taking that in the whole time during the scene, and he's answering these questions, but he's never not sort of tripping out on the fact that he's in this world. And then all of a sudden, this little kid comes in and hugs him, and it's like, oh, what is going on? And then Milchick pulls the kid away, and I love the little the look that the kid does looks up at Milchick, like, you know, you could just tell he, like, doesn't like him.

Yeah. I mean, not only has Dylan never been anywhere but MDR before, he's never seen a kid before. Like, the it's it's all huge.

Right. Yeah. And there's another moment in this scene where Mark is telling that they saw a department with baby goats. And then I just remember you really feeling very strongly that, like, that that there was such a funny moment between Dylan and Helly that we had to have some reference to that in that moment. And we had to actually, like, dig through the takes and just create a moment, like, find a reaction from Dylan.

We kind of, like, rolls his eyes, or it's like, okay, fine. It wasn't actually a room with baby goats. And then a moment from Helly reacting, but it's all just in facial expressions that we just had to sort of find in the edit to create them both Dylan reacting to that there was a baby goat room and Helly reacting to the fact that Dylan now sees that she was telling the truth just to tie it back to their previous conversation.

And then, basically, Mark Mark Mark wakes up in bed with Alexa and has this moment of wanting to get that phone out of the garbage. What do you think is motivating that?

Well, after seeing June at the concert, PD is on his mind. I think it's kind of refreshed this guilt that he feels and this unanswered question in his life. And I think that, you know, all the stuff PD was saying about Lumen in episode 1 and 2 has just been in the back of his mind. He's compartmentalized it away. He's kind of severed it in a way, but it's in his consciousness in life and been putting it away.

But this refreshed it,

and so he's thinking about Petey. He wakes up thinking about it. And that's a good example of editorially, you know, we just put in this quick shot of Petey dropping down to his knees.

Oh, it's hugely helpful.

Yeah. And it's with no sound. And I always find that really affecting Mhmm. Editorially when you can put in an image. Sometimes if it is a flashback or a memory or something, just literally with no sound design behind it, it makes it feel like a thought that's happening in that person's head that you're watching, and that really makes a difference there.

Yeah. The no sound thing, I think, I remember, like, initially, it was sort of like a like a little, like, thing.

Right. Right.

Taking out the sound, I remember, like, that makes such a difference because it almost makes it more internal.

Yeah. Yeah. And then you go downstairs and you and you fish the phone out of the garbage and you basically talk to Regavi for the first time.

Yeah. The second I put the battery in the phone, it's just ringing.

Yeah. Yeah. And I love how EAFE shot that too, where it's a high wide shot above you that slowly pushes in

and

we hold for a very long time. I think tension and mounting sort of feeling of of what's gonna happen by holding a shot for a long time that sometimes it's right and sometimes it's not right to do depending. And I think in our show, we sort of have bought ourselves the space to be able to do something like that sometimes.

Mhmm.

Where in this world where, attention spans are a lot shorter, you you kinda have to buy into the fact that people are gonna be drawn in and want to go along with the pacing of the show, which sometimes is not not the quickest on the show.

Yeah. Yeah. Do you do

do you think about that a lot, Jeff? I mean, just as an an editor in terms of how pacing, on this show works.

Yeah. I mean, the pacing on the shows feels all always very, like, deliberate, which is not an easy thing to to pull off because if you have moments, like, where you wanna hold, you kind of have to earn it in a way, and it kinda depends on a lot of the stuff that's leading up to that. And so it's all great to, like, have a great shot that can hold, but if the stuff surrounding it isn't sort of allowing you to pause and hold, then, like, there's a rhythm to the whole thing beyond just, like, the rhythm within the scene itself. And so the flow has to kind of, like, allow you to do that. I feel like on the show, we're always sort of striving to make it feel very deliberate.

Right. To make sure everything's earned and there for a reason. Sure.

Yeah. And I and I think there's something in our show too where it's sort of the the build to that happen on a macro and a micro level. Like, you could say, like, on the macro level of the first season, it sort of starts slower and then sort of ramps up. And I think that's something within a show that has suspense and a, you know, thriller aspect to it. You have to figure out when you're building up to something and then when you're sort of then resetting, recalibrating, and letting it build again because you can't just do 1 build the whole time.

Oh, yeah. Especially when you're like, on this show in particular, when we're balancing comedy with this darker vibe, the 2 things sometimes are happening exactly at the same time, which is really interesting in itself. But then a lot of times, it's sort of figuring how we are handing off from 1 to the other so that it doesn't have this whiplash feeling of, like, wait, what is the show I'm watching now? It's sort of it all feels like part of a whole where it's like a release to go into the comedy at just the right moment and sort of like a welcome return to the darker mysterious stuff at the right moment. And a lot of that is, like, structural, like the ordering of the scenes.

And, like, the back half of this episode in particular, like, it's not 1 continuous build. Like, it's not like you're following 1 character doing a thing that takes you from 1 scene to the other. It's a lot of different characters doing different things and trying to find a way so that it feels like 1 continuous build.

Right. Right. But they're interconnected somehow.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that would there's a lot of I I can remember trying to find that order that gives that feeling. And so just trying something and seeing where the flow breaks and then trying something else and

That that comes back to the trying stuff where it's just, you know, as opposed to talking about it, just trying stuff and feeling free to just try things that don't work until you hit on something that feels right and that being part of the process.

Yeah. When it clicks and it's like, of course, you have to go from this to that. And of course, you feel it. It's like a spark that goes on.

Well, thank you so much, Jeff, for doing this. This is so great.

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on. This was really fun.

That does it for episode 6 of the Severance podcast with Ben and Adam, hide and seek. I'm Ben Stiller. And I'm Adam Scott.

Next up, very exciting, episode 7, Defiant Jazz. We have some cool guests. Yeah. Who are the guests? It's Dax Shepard and Kristen Bell.

Woah. Okay. Yeah. I mean,

like, the master podcaster himself.

I love that. Just as a rhyme, the master podcaster. Master blaster podcaster. Master blaster podcaster and KB. Those are their Morning Zoo crew names.

Yes. You can stream all episodes of season 1 of Severance on Apple TV plus right now.

And season 2 is premiering January 17th.

You can listen to this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odysee app, or wherever else you love to listen to us. The Severance podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is a presentation of Odysee, Pineapple Street Studios, Red Hour Productions, and Great Scott Productions.

If you like the show, be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odysee app, or your other podcast platform of choice. Our executive producers are Barry Finkel, Henry Malofsky, Jenna Weiss Berman, and Leah Reese Dennis. The show is produced by Zandra Ellen and Naomi Scott. This episode was mixed and mastered by Chris Basil. We have additional engineering from Javi Kruseus and Davey Sumner.

Show clips are courtesy of 5th season. Music by Theodore Chapayro. Special thanks to the team at Odysee, Maura Curran, Eric Donnelly, Michael LaVey, Melissa Wester, Matt Casey, Kate Rose, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Schuff.

And the team at Red Hour, John Lesher, Carolina Pesikov, Jean Pablo Antonetti, Martin Valderooten, Ashwin Ramesh, Maria Noto, John Baker, and Oliver Agar.

And at Great Scott, Kevin Carter, Josh Martin, and Christy Smith at Rise Management.

We also had additional production help from Gabrielle Lewis, Ben Goldberg, Stephen Key, Kristen Torres, Emmanuel Hapsis, Marie Alexa Kavanaugh, and Melissa Slaughter. I'm Adam Scott. I'm Ben Stiller.

And we will, see you next time.

Hey, Adam. Yeah. Is your experience at work a bit dysfunctional lately?

I I don't know.

I think it's it's Okay. I'll take that as a yes. Your team could undergo a highly controversial surgical procedure that would mercifully sever any and all memories of that work experience from your home lives, or you could try Confluence by Atlassian.

Oh my god. Well, if it's a choice between those 2 things, I think I would 100% choose Confluence by Atlassian.

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So that would equal out, like, if we're playing with, like, let's just say a 100%. 5.2 of those percentage points

Yeah. That's the improvement. I mean, I'm not great at math, but that sounds very close.

Well, I'm doing the math in my head right now as we speak, and I think that's great.

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