Transcript of How to Unlock Your Full Potential with #1 Professor Adam Grant

Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I'm so glad you're here today because the episode you're about to listen to is 3 years in the making. Since 2023, I have been trying to get Dr. Adam Grant to step away from his research, to leave the classroom at Wharton School of Business, and to sit down with you and me. Today, he is finally here in our Boston studios. Professor Grant has spent decades studying one question: why do some people achieve their goals, yet other people remain stuck? And what he's discovered is going to challenge the way you think about your own potential. Because maybe you've started to believe that you're too old, too far behind. Maybe you think you've failed too many times. The plan you had for your life, it just stopped working. Or maybe— You've quietly started wondering, is this it? Have I already become everything I'm capable of becoming? Dr. Grant's research says no, there is more for you. More growth, more possibilities, more potential. And today, he's distilling his cutting-edge research into specific skills you can learn to unlock your hidden potential and create the future you deserve.

You deserve. Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so glad that you're here. It's always an honor to spend this time together. And if you're a new listener or you're here because somebody shared this episode with you, I just want to take a moment and personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. I'm so excited that you're here with me right now because I've been trying to get this expert on since 2023, and today he's here and you're going to learn it is not too late to unlock your hidden potential. It is not too late to create the life that you want. And you're going to learn this from one of the greatest thought leaders and professors of our time. He studies human potential, motivation, and personal growth. Who am I talking about? I'm talking about the one and only Dr. Adam Grant. He's an organizational psychologist and professor at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School of Business. Professor Grant has been Wharton's top-rated professor for 7 years straight. He's considered one of the world's most renowned and influential researchers. He's a 6-time New York Times bestselling author.

His books have sold millions of copies. You've probably heard of them. Think Again, Hidden Potential, Give and Take, Originals, all of which are his. And today you and I are gonna learn directly from him. So please help me welcome the incredible Dr. Adam Grant to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Dr. Adam Grant, I'm so happy To be with you in person. You know, I was thinking, okay, now how do I interview a person whose work is this profound and important and distill it all down? And I love the topic and this idea that wherever you are in your life, there is a hidden potential for you to experience yourself, your work, what's possible. And so that's, I think, where I want to start. What could change about my life if I take to heart everything we're going to unpack?

I hope I can help people become more effective. I think all of my work centers around the idea that we can be more effective if we're willing to change our habits and we're willing to question our assumptions. I think what kind of effectiveness you're pursuing is sort of up to you. So you might have a goal that you're trying to achieve and you feel like you're running into a stumbling block. You might have a connection you're trying to make and you feel like you're just not clicking with another person. And really my work starts with the question of how do we close that gap between where we are today and where we would love to be tomorrow?

Hmm. So what does the word effective mean to you? 'Cause that, that is not the word that I would've thought you were gonna say. Yes.

What did you think I was gonna say?

I guess I didn't know. And so effective, it's an interesting word because now that you've said it, I think about all of the, places in my day-to-day life where I drive myself crazy, I waste time, I am frustrated, I feel ineffective, and that makes me feel disappointed in myself or just not enjoying my day-to-day life. And I hadn't thought about the power of the word effective.

Here we are.

Here we are. That if you're wasting time, if you're frustrated, if you are beating yourself up, if you feel stuck, if you keep doing the same damn thing and nothing's changing, That there are things you're gonna teach us today that will make you more effective with the time that you have and the people that are around you?

I hope so. I think those unpleasant feelings that you're describing, those are actually sources of motivation, right? So every time you feel disappointed, that is a masterclass in figuring out how to do a better job staying focused. Every time you feel frustrated, that's a tutorial in how to find a different path to your goals. Every time you feel regret about how you spent your day, right? That is a lesson about making better decisions tomorrow. And I think so often what happens is we feel a negative emotion, we don't like it, we spend all our time ruminating about the past when we should be asking, what is the message for tomorrow from today's failure?

Okay, I love this. So anytime I'm upset, frustrated, disappointed, that doesn't mean you've hit a wall. It means you are getting data from your own life that either the way you're approaching something isn't working. And I think the big message is what you're saying. You gotta find another way.

Exactly. One of the reasons a lot of people get stuck is they get too attached to the path as opposed to saying, I've got a goal and I need to find one of many possible paths there.

Interesting that you said the word path because in your blockbuster number one New York Times bestseller, Hidden Potential, I'm gonna read to you from page 14. It's often said that where there's a will, there's a way. What we overlook is that when people can't see a path, they stop dreaming of the destination. What does that mean?

I've seen this a ton in my students, but I see it with people of all ages and life stages. At some point they realize, you know what, my dreams are just not practical. I had a career that I was passionate about and I couldn't figure out how to make a living doing it. I had a sport that I loved, And I just wasn't talented enough. I had a hobby that I was pursuing and I was hoping to turn it into a startup and I just couldn't figure it out. And so I can't find a way and therefore I lose the will.

Can you talk to the person who's listening who was nodding along as you were going through all of those types of situations that we get stuck in? You thought life was gonna be a certain way. Now you're divorced. You're a student that thought you'd get into medical school. You've gone through your second round of applications and it didn't happen. What do those moments tell you, and what do you want the person who's in that moment right now to know?

There's a really powerful term for that experience. It was coined in research by Barry Stahl. It's called escalation of commitment to a losing course of action. It happens anytime you make an initial decision or plan, it doesn't work out as you hoped, but instead of rethinking it, you double down and you say, if I just put in more time, more energy, more effort, Then I can turn this around and prove to the other person that I made the right call and I'm worth it, and also prove to myself that I did not make a bad decision and I am not a failure. And I think when a lot of people hear about escalation of commitment, they're thinking about sunk costs, and that is part of the equation, right? People have a really hard time letting go of what they've already invested. And what I would say to that is it's better if we think about this in the career context. For example, Mel, you're stuck in a dead-end job. Yeah. A lot of people don't wanna admit that they wasted the last 2 years. I would say it's much better to recognize quickly that you wasted the last 2 years than to waste the next 20.

And the faster you are to recognize that you're on the wrong path, the sooner you can start pivoting and moving toward the right path.

But in that moment where you're doubling down, you really don't know it's the wrong path. No. So how do you know? that you've spent and sunk too much time and too much money and too much effort into something that's not going to turn out? How do you know?

I don't think you ever know for sure.

Okay.

I think there are 3 ways, though, to try to gauge whether you're at risk of escalation.

Okay.

So, the first way is to set yourself conditions in advance for what would have to happen that would tell me maybe I should pull the plug.

Oh.

So, you pre-commit when you take a job and you say, I'm not sure if this is gonna be a good fit for my goals and values. I'm gonna give myself 6 months and I'm not gonna worry day to day about whether this is right or wrong. I'm gonna give it a chance. And then at the 6-month mark, I'm gonna do a career checkup the same way that you would go to the dentist for a checkup, even if nothing is wrong with your teeth. You put that reminder in your calendar.

Yeah.

And 6 months later, you basically evaluate, has the job met the conditions that you hoped for when you accepted it? So I think that's one option. And you keep yourself honest by making that initial commitment to say, okay, here's what I'm looking for and here's when I'm going to reassess. The second option is you have a friend or a mentor who's, or it might be a partner for that matter, who's really good at being your challenge network, a sounding board to say, hey, wait a minute, you have reached a learning plateau or a meaning plateau or just a work-life balance plateau. And it is time to, to question whether this is something you want to invest in. And then the third option, and this is my favorite one, Mel, because it's the easiest to do. Have you ever noticed that you're better at giving advice to other people than making your own choices?

Dude, I make a living at it. I mean, yes,

if, if only you had Mel Robbins to advise you, right? So psychologists call that Solomon's Paradox, and it comes from the, the parable of King Solomon, who was, you know, very wise in advising others but made disastrous personal choices. And that pattern holds for most of us. And the reason is, when we advise others, we tend to zoom out and look at the big picture, and we'll focus on the 2 or 3 most important factors and really ignore all of the other details. Whereas when we make our own choices, we get stuck in the weeds and we're trying to compare all the options on 19 different criteria, and we just end up overcomplicating it. And so I think anytime you're not sure if you're in an escalation situation, You should start giving advice to somebody else who's either in that trap or imagine that you're talking to somebody who is and give them some guidance. And you will find that the advice you give to others is usually the advice that you need to take yourself.

Oh, that's amazing. The advice you give to others is the advice you need to take to yourself.

Yeah, 'cause you're taking yourself out of the situation.

Yes.

And looking at it from an outside perspective.

Yes. And you can do that with your job. If my best friend were in the situation I'm in at work, what would I tell them to do?

Yes, there's another layer of why this is really powerful, which is so often when we're stuck or we're uncertain, we seek advice from other people. But I think the biggest problem with advice seeking is people generally tell us what works for them, and it may or may not apply to us and our situation and our personality. And it also leaves us in a passive, needy position. Like, if I'm relying on you for advice all the time, I feel like I can't handle my own issues. Whereas if I give advice, I'm going to start from my own vantage point. I'm going to start from my own personality, my own values. And I'm also then in an active position of having something to offer. That's empowering. It makes me feel generous. It makes me feel capable. And so I think in many of those moments when we're tempted to lean on other people for advice, we should actually shift the lens and say, okay, Let me provide some advice and hope I can then learn something from what I end up saying.

What are some of the, the big factors that you've seen that people put too much weight on the impact of the decision on others, or like count that too much?

I think that a lot of overthinking is actually underthinking.

Oh wait, what does that mean?

I feel for people who overthink, but I worry about people who underthink. Right? I would rather see you think too much than think too little. But I actually think one becomes the other. And here's what I mean by that. When people overthink things, what they're really doing is they're ruminating about the same thing over and over. There's actually a classic study on this by Paul Nutt. So he studies hundreds of organizational decisions, and he wants to know whether they succeed or fail. And it turns out about half of the decisions fail. And then he tries to reverse engineer what are the differences between the decisions that worked out and the ones that didn't. And it turns out the clearest leading indicator that you are about to make a dumb decision is you've only considered 2 options. Even just having contemplated a 3rd possibility raises the probability that you make a choice that you, you feel was successful on the back end that meets your goals. And I don't know, Mel, whether that's causal. I don't know whether considering a 3rd option actually improves the quality of your decision-making, or whether the kinds of people who considered 3 options We're just more thorough decision makers to begin with.

But either way, when somebody is overthinking something, they're kind of rattling back and forth just between 2 choices.

Yeah. This or that. Exactly. This or that. This or that. This or that.

And I think that's a moment to pause and say, what's behind door number 3? I think what rescues a lot of people from overthinking traps is saying, okay, I've just been pouring so much into comparing these 2 options. If I put a 3rd possibility on the table, That's actually gonna open up a whole bunch of new thoughts because I've gotta compare now A and C and B and C, and that's gonna, you know, help me figure out whether C is worth considering, but it's also gonna reveal dimensions of A and B that I never thought of.

I love this because it's almost like throwing a ball for a dog. Like you don't turn to the dog and be like, would you like to throw the ball? You throw the ball and now the dog is chasing it. And so when you said come up with an option C and maybe even always make option C ridiculous. Like something that you don't even think is even possible.

Yeah.

But now I'm making my brain go do what it likes to do, which is problem solve. And you just tricked me into breaking that this or that.

Yeah. A lot of the ruminating we do is, it's tunnel vision.

Yes.

And what we need is we need to improve our peripheral vision. I get so many questions, should I stay in my job or should I quit my job? And my colleagues, Amy Razniewski and Jane Dutton, say there's a third option. You don't have to choose between keeping your job and quitting your job. You can craft your job. You can try to tinker on the margins and say, what are tasks that I would love to spend more time on that align with my passions and my values and my skills? What are interactions I would love to have more of? Who are people that I find energizing, who I actually am able to add value to, or who bring out the best in me? Let me try to make that a bigger part of my job. And a lot of people don't even consider that possibility. The most rigorous study of its kind, this is thousands of people in Australia over a 5-year period, looks at what happens when people are really unhappy in their jobs. And the people who are extremely dissatisfied and they quit actually end up unhappier on average.

Wow.

Because the grass was not greener. They kind of knew what the warts were in their existing job, and they didn't know all of the problems that they were going to face in the new job. They had a rosy picture of it. And then there's kind of a honeymoon hangover effect that occurs. They also don't realize that transitions take a toll. And so even people who left jobs they didn't like and found a better job, it typically took them at least a year to find happiness in that better job. And sometimes they never discovered it. Now, I'm not saying you should never quit a bad job. I think if you have a meaningless job, if you have an abusive boss, you should run for the hills if you have a chance. But I think if you have a job that's acceptable, Before you just walk away, it's worth asking, could I innovate and redesign my own job? Could I become an active architect of what I do every day?

Oh, I love that. Already you're opening the door to different possibilities. And this is one of the reasons why I love your work, because you always reveal something that a lot of us don't see. What do we get wrong about potential?

I think when we judge potential both in ourselves and others, the biggest mistake we make is we focus too much on ability and too little on motivation and opportunity.

Okay, what does that even mean?

I think we tend to judge people by how good they are at the start, not how good they're capable of becoming. And the clearest examples of great potential are child prodigies. And so we marvel at the kids who can do a Mozart sonata at 4, Or who can memorize the periodic table or thousands of digits of pi by the time they're 7. And what we don't realize is child prodigies rarely grow up to become adult geniuses.

Really?

Yeah. Empirically, it's a surprisingly small fraction of them who go on to great things. And my favorite study on this, it's a classic study by Benjamin Bloom. He studied world-class achievers across domains. He looked at great musicians, artists, scientists, and athletes. And then he went back to their childhoods and he wanted to know what was it that set them apart, the people who would one day go on to greatness. And it turned out that most of these super achievers, they were not the best child in their own neighborhood when they first took on piano lessons or when they started painting or sculpting or when they picked up a tennis racket. Sometimes they weren't even the best in their own family. And when they did stand out, It wasn't because they had extraordinary talent. It was because they had extraordinary drive. They wanted to get better. They loved the activity. They were excited to practice when their peers were kind of getting tired or bored.

Wow. I mean, that's kind of exciting because I think we look at how we're doing right now at something, whether it's our job or it's trying to learn guitar, or maybe even just our relationship skills and ability to connect with people. And we assume this is just what we're working with here.

Yeah.

But your work proves that no, no, no, no, you may not be able to see it, but there is hidden potential in you. And I know you have this visual that you can show us.

I think about Michelangelo looking at a block of stone and seeing a sculpture inside of it. And I think that's how we should look at everyone we meet. I think that's how we should look at ourselves too, because so often we can take a rock like this and inside we can see that there is the potential. for a diamond in the rough.

And what he's doing is he's got this ugly— just looks like a hunk of concrete, and you just popped it open, and inside is one of those gorgeous, crystally, sparkly things.

It's a geode, right? And I think people show up in our lives, and we show up to new challenges and new tasks, and we kind of look like this sort of—

A hunk of rock.

Yeah, just a rock. And it's really hard to see the possibility for sparkling in inside or underneath. And that happens because we judge ourselves by where we start. We judge other people by where they start, and we can't forecast how far they can go. But ultimately, I think the greatest sign of potential is not where you start today. It's the distance you're capable of traveling tomorrow.

And what would surprise the person who's listening to this right now? about how far you could go.

A lot of people, they basically lose self-confidence, or they can't find it in the first place because they say, look, I started, I'm not any good. And Mel, I lived this. I wanted to be a springboard diver. I was horrible. Horrible.

You were?

I was the worst diver in my school.

Why did you want to be a springboard diver?

Because I had already been cut from the basketball team and the soccer team. I was running out of sports. My mom dragged me to a local pool one summer, and I saw the lifeguard on break doing flips and twists. He was a state finalist. diver, and I was mesmerized. And I said, I have to learn how to do that. But I was afraid of heights, so probably the wrong sport for me. I also was so inflexible I couldn't touch my toes without bending my knees, and I was just not cut out for this sport. In fact, um, we have some vintage video and photos.

Oh wait, that's you on the diving board?

This was the end of my first summer learning to dive. This is me at 13 trying to figure out how to dive. And I was bad. You can see it in the video. I was horrible.

You're basically wearing basketball shorts from the team that you got cut from.

That's so true. That might actually— those could be the team shorts. But I look back at that video, and it's still hard to see that I had any potential because I was so awful. And you can see me shaking at the end of the board in fear. You can see me kind of stomping down the board, moving very stiffly like Frankenstein because I had so little flexibility. You can see me belly flopping and kind of landing in a, in a ball on my side because I really didn't have good body control. And Mel, I was so lucky to have a coach, Eric Best, who saw more potential in me than I saw in myself. And I think that's what great coaches do.

Hmm.

I think they see more possibility in us than we can recognize in ourselves. That's what great mentors do. It's what great partners do. And Eric said to me on the first day of tryouts, I will never cut a diver who wants to be here.

Oh!

And I will invest as much as you do. Wow! It took me from being the worst diver in my school to being a state finalist 2 and a half years later. I qualified for the Junior Olympic Nationals multiple times. I made an All-American list, and I got recruited to dive in college at the NCAA Division I level. And that was all Eric just seeing the possibility for growth in me. And I think one of the many lessons I took away from that experience is, you know, I judged myself by where I was when I started, and Eric judged me by my motivation to learn.

Ah.

He saw even that first day that I didn't wanna quit. I guess I was annoyingly gritty. He joked during my freshman year that he had to kick me outta practice every day because he would say, we're done. And I would say, just one more. Just one more because I was trying to improve. And he knew that ultimately it was my desire to grow, not my physical limitations that were ultimately gonna determine how good I got.

That story is so helpful. I actually get this and I can see the scene. I can see what it would look like to be that coach. And that is the single greatest name for a coach, Coach Best, because When you describe being a kid who wanted to be there, being the kid who was the last to leave, the kid who said, can I just try one more time? What comes through in that scene, that little clip from the movie of your life, is the desire to get better.

Yeah.

And I find that super helpful because I think what happens a lot, or at least as I reflect, it's both my experience personally and my experience of leading a very big team.

Yeah.

Is you do get caught up in the day-to-day of ability, and you lose sight of the fact that there are so many people that have a desire to grow. And truly, your job as a coach or a leader is to create the conditions in which they can.

Yeah, exactly. The people who are coachable are the ones who we underestimate. The people who are like sponges, who are constantly asking, what's something new I could try? What's something I could do better? And very often, those are the people who are underestimated, overlooked. They are underdogs at first, but ultimately they end up exceeding our expectations and their own too. Me at 13, I was this rock. I actually think I was worse than this rock. Eric saw the potential for me to shine as a diver, and I don't think I was ever satisfied with my diving. Even when I got to the college level, I always felt like I was falling short of my goals. But I can look back now and say, if I could tell 13-year-old me how far I was going to get, that version of me would be really proud. And I think, Mel, I think that this is, this is something that a lot of people struggle with is they start to make a little progress, they get better, they achieve a goal, and then their expectations rise faster than their accomplishments. And they never get to fully enjoy their success.

They never savor the progress they've made. And I think mental time travel is a great antidote to that problem. Rewind and say, if a younger version of you could see where you are today, how proud would that version of you be? And that's a great reminder to savor your success.

Why is savoring your success along the way a very important driver in unlocking your full potential?

Well, otherwise you just feel like you're in a rat race or you're living life on a never-ending treadmill. And at some point you will either burn yourself out because you're never really reaping the fruits of your labor, or you'll experience bore-out, or as the French say, le bore-out, which is you're just repeating the same thing over and over again and you're not experiencing any joy in the process.

Oh, you write about this actually in Hidden Potential. I'm reading on page 88 and it's the chapter Transforming the Daily Grind. We're often told that if we want to develop our skills, we need to push ourselves through long hours of monotonous practice. But the best way to unlock hidden potential isn't to suffer through the daily grind. It's to transform the daily grind into a source of daily joy. It's not a coincidence that in music, the term for practice is play. Play your instrument. How do you use this savoring? And thinking about how far you've come or the small little moments that you gain daily as you make progress as a source of daily joy that can keep you going.

Psychologists actually have a term for this. Instead of deliberate practice, they call it deliberate play.

Deliberate play.

Yeah. And it's the process of taking a skill you wanna get better at and making it fun, turning it into a game. And I'm not talking about cheesy gamification. Where we're gonna create a leaderboard, and then all of a sudden we're competing with other people that we don't really care about beating or don't even know.

So true.

Not that, not that deliberate play is, it's like what Steph Curry does in practice where he's trying to improve his ability to shoot when he's exhausted and when he's off balance. And so he'll do a bunch of drills, and his goal is to maximize the number of shots he makes while the clock is ticking. And then he has to do the same exercise blindfolded, and he's taking on these challenges and he's trying to beat his personal best. What makes that so joyful is you're not competing against other people. You are competing against your past self and your future self. And for most people, the best way to start with deliberate play is to say, if you're trying to improve your skills at playing the guitar, or you're trying to get better at crossword puzzles, uh, the person you're competing with is your past self. And the bar you're setting is for your future self.

Oh, I love that. And as I sit here listening to you, it's no wonder you're the number one professor at Wharton School of Business. You just have this way of explaining things. And speaking of explaining, I want to give our sponsors a moment to share a few words. And don't go anywhere, because after the break, Professor Grant is going to share brand new research on relationships and the 3 types of people in life. Everybody you know, including you, fits into one of these 3 categories. And once you understand the 3 types of people, oh my gosh, everything about relationships is gonna make so much sense. You do not wanna miss this, so stay with us.

We tend to judge people by how good they are at the start, not how good they're capable of becoming.

That was Professor Grant. He's an organizational psychologist, Wharton School of Business professor, researcher, 6-time New York Times bestselling author. And today he is here in our Boston studios to teach you and me how to unlock your hidden potential and create the future you deserve. And it starts by understanding that you got to stop judging yourself where you are, because that's not the judge of what you're capable of becoming. I love that. I wanna go back to the diving board example, because I think as you listen to that story, it's easy to also insert yourself into the role of you as the 13-year-old diver. For the person who is starting to feel, oh, maybe there is some potential in me, where do you even begin to start to believe that?

I think the biggest mistake I see people make is they wait until they feel confident in order to take action. And I learned through diving that that's backward. So let's fast forward a year or so. I'm starting to make a little progress as a diver, and my biggest obstacle is I'm afraid to try new dives because I'm gonna get lost in midair, and then I'm gonna end up doing a belly flop or a back smack. But one day, I'll never forget this, I was so scared to try a new dive. It was gonna be a full twisting 2.5. So I'm on the 3-meter springboard. I'm supposed to do 2 forward somersaults, then a 360 turn, and then dive in. And I had this vision of doing a cartwheel and breaking my eardrum, and I couldn't get myself to go. And I was waiting until I felt ready. And Eric, after 45 minutes of watching me stand on the board shaking, said, Adam, are you going to do this dive? And I was like, Ever? One day, yes, I would love to do this dive. And Eric said, great, what are you waiting for? And Mal, in that moment, I realized that I was waiting until I felt ready to take the leap, but I could only become ready by taking the leap.

I think that's a metaphor that applies to every single confidence challenge we encounter. We're waiting to build confidence in order to act. But action is what builds confidence.

Hmm.

I've heard Eric's voice in my head every time I've been afraid to try something new or take a risk. When I was hesitating to write my first book, I heard Eric asking me, Adam, are you gonna do this one day? Yes. Why not start today? When I got invited to give my first TED Talk as an introvert who's extremely shy and grappled with a fear of public speaking, I was terrified. And I heard Eric echoing, Adam, would you like to share your ideas on a stage like that? One day I would love to. Great. What are you waiting for? And I think that we really build confidence by taking the leap.

It's so brilliant. I love that. What role do relationships play in helping you unlock your potential?

I think it's hard to overstate how important it is to find other people who cheer for you, who believe in you, who are willing to both show you what you're capable of, but also be honest with you. when you're not quite meeting the mark. But I think a, a small signal to say, hey, I'm open, goes a long way to inviting people to coach you. And so one thing I learned from Eric, actually, and this, this comes right out of diving, is I would hit the water and I'd pop up after my dive, and he would give me a score of 0 to 10. Because I can't see where I am in midair. I can't tell whether I've made a splash or not. I can't tell whether I'm, you know, I've under-rotated or over-rotated. And so Eric would give me a score and sometimes I was excited. He'd say 8 and I felt like I crushed it. Other times I'd come out of the water and he'd say 3.5, but it didn't matter what the score was. The only question was, how can I improve my score? How do I get closer to 10? And I think that's a question we can all ask.

I do this every time I work with somebody new. After I give a keynote speech, after I come on a podcast, I will say 0 to 10, how did that go? And then whatever the score is, my next question is, how can I get closer to 10? And what I found works really well about this is people rarely give 10s. And if, if they do, I give them a hard time and say, look, there's no such thing as a 10. What did you really think? And then, you know, whether they say, hey, I thought that was a 6.5 or a 2 or a 9, they have acknowledged that it wasn't perfect. And then the natural follow-up question is, well, great. If you were gonna make one change, What is the change that you would recommend?

I actually love this. What, based on your research, what is the best way and easiest way to really strengthen your relationships?

I, I have learned something. I have learned that there is a habit that most of us have that we don't realize is actually vital to building new connections and also rekindling old ones. It's called pebbling.

Okay. Pebbling. You have— and he's got a— he's got a prop here. He's got a glass thing full of little pebbles. Oh, yeah. We have a visual here.

Yeah. Okay. So I love pebbling. The origin of the term is there are— there are some penguins that when they're courting mates, they will present smooth, shiny pebbles as a way of showing, you know, basically they're suitable for partnering and building a nest together. If you picture a penguin presenting this pebble, Right? It's a little gesture that says, hey, I might be for you. The modern digital equivalent of pebbling is sending other people memes, links, reels, and articles. And I think that what a lot of people, when they hear that, they think, oh, everything I find, I'm going to blast it to everyone I know. No, pebbling is not about spamming people with random junk from the internet. It's about carefully choosing a little bit of information that you know is gonna resonate with somebody else. And it says, I thought of you. I know you. I see you. Every pebble is a bid for connection. Every single pebble you send to another person is a gesture of care. Now, the research on this, I think, is fascinating. So there have been now multiple studies which show that after you meet somebody new, if a week or a month later you send them a little pebble and you say, hey, I saw this, this meme of Macaulay Culkin wearing a shirt with Ryan Gosling on it.

And then Ryan Gosling wore a shirt of Macaulay Culkin wearing the Ryan Gosling shirt. And I like, I know this is your jam. This is your kind of humor. It just reminded me of you instantly. That person will feel closer to you because you remember their unique sense of humor. That's a great way to strengthen a bond. It's also a great way to get back in touch with someone.

Hmm.

You reach out to somebody who's called a dormant tie, somebody you haven't talked to in 2 years, 5 years, maybe a decade or more, and you say, I just watched Silo, and you have to watch it. We have to talk about it. It reminded me of you. I just finished the new season of Ted Lasso, and there is an episode that has you written all over it. And that person really feels like, wow, first of all, I can't believe you remembered my taste in TV. So you've done a memory flex. You, you have said, hey, guess what? Like, I cared enough about you to pay attention to you, but you've also now created a reason to reconnect.

I love that. You know, one thing that people do with this show is when you share an episode with somebody in your family or a friend and you say, hey, I just heard Adam Grant, you have to hear the part where he's talking about pebbling, or you have to hear the part about not quitting your job, or you have to hear the part where he talks about your hidden potential and really the source of confidence. You're gonna love this. That's an example of pebbling.

It is. Yeah.

Talk about dormant ties and what we get wrong about how big our actual network is. Because one of the things that I think a lot about, especially in the moment that we're living in and just how lonely people feel, is that I think we don't realize how big our network is because we're judging it based on who we saw in the last week and we feel physically close to right now.

That's exactly right. We have a whole reservoir of future friends that we're not thinking about, and they're actually our old friends.

Oh, oh my God, will you say that again?

Yeah, I mean—

That's beautiful.

For anybody who feels lonely or just feels like they're not part of a community or they don't have their group, your future friends are the people you used to know.

Wow.

How many people are there in your life that you lost touch with, but you would love to be back in contact with. We all have a few. Most of us actually have 5, 10, maybe even dozens. And those are called dormant ties. In the research, one of the things that happens is people are prompted to reach out and reactivate the connection. And a lot of people will grumble and they're like, some ties are dormant for a reason. No, Mel, most ties are not dormant for a good reason. We didn't mean to fall outta touch. We got busy, we moved, we changed jobs, we had kids, and life just overwhelmed us. And if you look at what the data show, when we actually have the courage to reach out and reconnect, 90% of the time we enjoy it.

90?

9 outta 10. times that you rekindle a connection, you will say, wow, this was a delightful experience, and now we're gonna be back in touch.

You know what's interesting is that when I left Dartmouth and, uh, kind of just went on in my life, it was 1990s, so no cell phones, no social media. When you moved to Washington, DC, or you moved out to California or London or wherever you went, you just didn't see your college friends. I mean, you didn't have a way to get in touch with them other than write a letter. And every time somebody moves, they have a different phone number because the phone was attached to the wall. And so I fell so out of touch. And recently I have gotten back in touch just with a dormant contact, my freshman college roommate. Shout out, Bernadine. And I have now this group chat. Oh, that's so cool. on text with people I hadn't spoken to in 2 decades. Wow. It's like 4 of us total that have gone in completely different paths, and it's the coolest thing.

It's such a great example, and it's much easier to reconnect with someone you used to know than start over from scratch with somebody you hardly know, because there's probably a reservoir of goodwill. You have shared history, you have shared connections. There's some trust, you, there's nostalgia, right? You, you know, some of the same people, you have some of the same memories. And so it's much easier to pick up where you left off. I think what's sad in the research is that when people, when, when they realize this and they, they find out, wow, people love reconnecting. And also, by the way, you get better advice and help from your dormant ties than from your current contacts.

Really? Why?

On average. Yeah. Because the people you currently are interacting with regularly, they give you a lot of redundant information. They're exposed to a lot of the same people and the same knowledge that you are, whereas your dormant ties have been meeting different people, they've been learning different things.

Mm-hmm.

And so they can open up a new job lead, a fresh creative perspective, a new idea. And I think that you hear that and you think, wow, like there are all these people who could be enormously helpful. They could be you know, just great people to have in my life. Many people still hesitate to reach out because they think we're not gonna vibe, it's gonna be awkward, they're not gonna wanna hear from me. And that is, I think, a mistake.

It's not only a mistake, you're saying 90% of the time the reconnection goes way better. And so do you have any counsel to how to do that?

I mean, I actually think, you know, this article reminded me of you is a great place to start.

Wow.

I read a book that I think you'd love. I listened to a song and it took me right back.

Oh, I love that one.

To when we were 18. And I think, you know, if, if something happens and that activates your memory of them, why not let them know?

Here's another one, because Bernadine did this to me. She was helping her parents clean out their house as they were downsizing, and she came across a box from— this would've been 1986.

Ooh.

She and I— Is

there a photo? A memento?

It's a memento. She and I turned our dorm room, Russell Sage Dorm at Dartmouth, into a bar. We called it Malin Burns Bar.

Why am I not at all surprised by that?

We flipped over one of the desks to block people from coming in the room. Bernadine went home to New York for Thanksgiving, brought back blenders. We made t-shirts, sold them to pay for the booze, and we sold t-shirts and turned our room into a bar. She had one of the t-shirts and sent me a photo.

There you go.

Of this t-shirt from 1986, which would have been over 30-some years ago.

That is such a great— I mean, talk about a pebble. That is a pebble from the past.

That's a great— that's like a boulder.

From a time capsule.

Yeah.

I think those are great ways to reconnect. I think if you, if you can't find one or if that's just not your style, there are a few other ways that it's just really easy to get back in touch. One is to wait for a milestone, a birthday, an anniversary. You see that they got a new job, you congratulate them on a promotion, and that can be an opening. I'm coming to your city is another simple one. I'd love to get together and catch up. My 2 favorites though, I think are, are just way underutilized. So a lot of people are afraid of being takers, and I would say, why not reconnect as a giver? Reach out and say, you know what, I'm trying to I'm trying to be more helpful to the people who matter to me, and I know it's been a while, but you actually played a really formative role in my life. You're somebody that I really value. I appreciate what you did for me in this moment. I would love to pay it back or pay it forward. If there's any way I can be helpful in your life, please let me know.

And then the other one that I really love is just going right to gratitude. Even just saying, hey, I wanted to tell you how much of a difference you made in my life, and I miss you. It's a great way to rekindle the connection. And the worst case scenario, they don't reciprocate. They weren't in your life anyway. What do you have to lose?

That's true. That's true. I love the specific suggestions and I wanna highlight one of 'em because a lot of people start doing this when you're looking for a job and you need something from people. And so if this is inspiring you, which I'm sure it is, taking this coaching from Adam and saying, okay, just reaching out and saying, you made a big difference in my life, and I'm making it a practice to just reach out to people from the past who were meaningful. And if I can ever do anything or you wanna reconnect, I'd love to do that. You're now laying the seeds also in your network for the future.

That's so true. I spent many years studying the different forms that generosity takes, and when most people think about generosity, they think about going the extra mile. They think about offering help. They think about being a mentor or coach. What almost nobody thinks of is making introductions is a tiny act of kindness. Reaching out to somebody and saying, hey, I actually met somebody that I think you would really hit it off with. Or I ran into somebody that I think is a future friend of yours. And let me tell you a little bit about why. Would you be interested in connecting? That 5-minute favor, that quick introduction. Is not only a great way to contribute to those 2 people, it also brings you closer to both of them.

Hmm. I love that. Adam, you say everyone needs a challenge network. What is that?

I think of a challenge network as kind of the mirror image of your support network.

Okay.

So if you think about your support network, it's your mentors, your sponsors, your coaches, your friends, your fans. Those are the people who believe in you. They cheerlead for you. They have your back. I think we also need a challenge network, which is a group of thoughtful critics who you trust to hold up a mirror so you can see your own blind spots more clearly. And they're the people who, instead of lining up to feed you comforting lies, actually have the courage to tell you the unpleasant truths.

But I hate those people.

No, you don't. You might, you might find them annoying or irritating in the moment, but looking back, the people who gave you tough love, are the ones who care most about you.

Oh, wow. The people who gave you tough love are the ones who care the most about you.

We just make the wrong assumptions a lot of times when people give us hard feedback or when they tell us uncomfortable truths. But most of the time when people take the time to tell you a hard truth or to have a difficult conversation with you, they're doing it because they care about you or they care about the relationship. And they haven't necessarily known how to show it and how to communicate it. And so what happens is we show up and, you know, we're, we're actually trying to help somebody else grow and they take it as a blow. They think you're attacking me or you're judging me when in fact you're just trying to lift them up.

Professor Grant, I love how you teach and how you weave in both story and the research that you've done and that colleagues that you respect I feel really lucky. Thank you for taking the time to be here with us. I feel lucky that, you know, the person who's here with us and I get to learn from somebody like you for free, thanks to the sponsors of this show. And that brings me to our sponsors. I wanna hit the pause button, allow our sponsors to share a few words, and when we come back, Professor Grant is giving his specific advice and the 3 things that he's telling his students at the Wharton School of Business and corporate audiences all over the world on how to succeed at work right now. The rules have changed, and you're going to want to hear them. So stay with me.

It is never too late to find your hidden potential and unlock it. It is never too late to reach out to somebody that you lost contact with and get back can touch. It is never too late to ask for a raise or a promotion.

That was Professor Grant. He's an organizational psychologist, the number one rated professor for 7 years straight at Wharton School of Business. And today he's here inspiring and teaching you about unlocking your hidden potential and creating the future that you want. Professor Grant, I love what you write in your new blockbuster, Vibe. This one is so good. This is on page 4. There's even evidence that if we're standing with a friend, a hill looks less steep. It propels our best work and our biggest breakthroughs, enabling us to do together what we can't do alone. Talk to us about the power of other people and the vibe that we create with them.

Well, I think that a vibe is more than a feeling. It's not just the sense of energy and chemistry and time flying when we interact with other people. When neuroscientists study those moments where we feel like we really vibed, they find that our brainwaves and our heartbeats synchronize.

Heartbeats?

Heartbeats.

No way.

Yeah. When you're vibing with somebody else, your hearts are beating in a common rhythm.

That's so cool.

It is, right? And it's part of what produces the feeling that we're really hitting it off. And I think that in those moments, we believe that we got lucky, that we just found our match. And I think that is occasionally true, but most of the time, a vibe is not something you match for. You're not looking for a soulmate. It's actually something that you build through routines and rituals, through how you interact. And I think if we make more deliberate choices, we can't engineer better connections, but we can set the conditions that improve our chances of really finding common ground with other people.

Okay. How do I do that? Because I think that sounds incredible because you do have those experiences where you feel in flow with somebody else and you're not talking about a romantic relationship. You're talking about friendship, you're talking about colleagues, you're talking about Like you could be on a team at work or a Little League team where the vibe just feels like this glue. So how do you create the conditions for that in your relationships?

I think the most important thing is to be clear about what kind of vibe you're trying to build.

Oh, okay. Well, how do I know that?

This is a new revelation for me. So I've synthesized data from thousands and thousands of people across many countries in the world, and The light bulb moment for me was there are actually 3 different kinds of vibes, and they exist in romantic relationships, they exist in friendships, they exist in collaborations, in any kind of connection. We can be allies, pals, or companions.

Okay, allies, pals, or companions. Let's break 'em apart.

Allies are people who share your goals. You're on a mission together. Pals are people who share your interests and hobbies. You have fun together. Companions are people who share your values. You care about each other. And Mel, I cannot tell you how many of our missed connections, how many of our disappointing interactions are because we're on different wavelengths. So I come into a conversation with you thinking that we're gonna be companions, or that we already are companions. And I tell you about a really difficult moment, and I open up about the grief that I'm going through because I lost somebody that I care about.

Yeah.

And you kind of give a perfunctory, I'm so sorry for your loss, and you never mention it again. And you don't check in with me a couple days later. You don't follow up a month later. I feel betrayed. I feel like you are not the person I thought you were. You're not my friend. What I am missing in that moment is you may not be a good companion for me, but we could still be great pals.

Hmm.

We have a blast doing karaoke together. Actually, we don't. I can't sing or dance, but if I could, maybe we would. We really love playing pickleball or padel together. We have a great time in a book club together. Those are all PAL interactions, and I've tried to interact with you on the wrong wavelength. We might also be great allies. You might be somebody that I don't necessarily like interacting with, but I work really well together because you have complementary skills. And you complete me in a professional way, but maybe you're not the shoulder that I would lean on. Maybe you're not the best person to confide in. And this is what the evidence shows clearly, is many of our dissatisfying relationships and even just interactions come from the fact that we have misaligned expectations. And if we can get on the same page about the fact that we both want to be pals, or that you're looking for allyship, or you're seeking companionship, Then we have a much better chance of vibing, and then we can actually find the right routines and rituals that get us on that wavelength together.

Adam Grant, you're a damn genius. I, I'm not kidding, cuz I, I wanna unpack this. David Kessler, the extraordinary expert on finding meaning after grief and devastating things that happen in life, has this saying that I've never forgotten. When you are seeking something from someone who cannot provide it, it's like looking for milk in a hardware store.

It's a great analogy.

Right? And when you said the example of trying to connect with somebody or getting support from somebody that you're interacting with like a deep companion that shares your values, that is able to show up for you in a way that just works, and you're doing that from a pal, that's like looking for milk in a hardware store.

So true.

Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with your pal.

No, they're just, they're just not the right companion for you.

Correct.

And they might even be a good companion for someone else. I mean, the reason that example was so salient for me is 'cause it happened to me during COVID My wife Allison was diagnosed with breast cancer. And I didn't talk to a lot of people about it. I, I'm not somebody who seeks a lot of companionship. I think my go-to way of interacting with people is as allies first and maybe pals second. I was catching up with a friend who had confided in me in the past about some difficult experiences he was going through with his wife and also with his work. And he asked me how I was dealing with COVID And for whatever reason, I had just been focused on, you know, trying to be a supportive partner to Allison and being a good dad to our 3 kids. But for whatever reason, because he had shown a little bit of a desire to be companions, I mentioned to him that, you know, she was going through chemotherapy. And I just got a perfunctory response of, that sounds really hard. I'm sorry. And then it never came up. And I really felt let down.

And my first reaction was, you're dead to me. How dare you not show up? Like, the least you could do is care enough to ask again. And then, you know, I thought about it and I realized, you know what, maybe I was just looking for the wrong thing from the wrong person at the wrong time. And over time, this particular person is probably one of the few best allies in my life.

Hmm.

Has been so helpful to me when I'm stuck on figuring out how to synthesize a bunch of data, has been a tremendous source of ideas as a brainstorming partner, has introduced me to some of the best people in my life, an incredible connector. And also it's just a really fun pal. We love all the same racket sports. And it was a great lesson before I had the language, but now with the vocabulary, like, okay, I am okay with the fact that you are my go-to ally and pal in many ways. I'm no longer expecting companionship from you. And I have not felt disappointed once since.

And what's also incredible about this language that you're giving us, allies, pals, companions, is it allows you to accept people as they are and as they're not. And you're extending grace to people without judgment.

Boom.

And that creates deeper connection in your relationship. Being able to see people— Oprah has this example that I love, that there are 10-gallon people. And if you are a 10-gallon person that needs 10 gallons of attention and 10 gallons of this and 10 gallons of that, do not try to get 10 gallons from a pint-sized person because a pint-sized person has a pint size to give you. And they're always gonna feel like they gave you everything that they had to give. And they did.

Yeah.

But you're gonna feel like they gave you nothing because of what you needed. And another way to explain that example is, You're trying to get 10 gallons of companionship and support from a pal.

That's so interesting. I think that is spot on. It reminds me, Oprah said once that everybody wants to take the limo with you, and the real friends are the ones who take the bus when the limo breaks down.

Yeah.

And I think that's true. I also think that, like, if you think about what happens when the bus breaks down, your allies are the ones who are trying to fix the engine or repair the brakes. Your pals are the ones who are cracking jokes and trying to pass the time. Your companions are the ones who are trying to console you about the fact that, yeah, you might miss the event you were trying to get to, but you know what? It's gonna be okay.

I'm gonna tell you something that I know is true. By giving us 3 categories of people is you have given us the language

Oh, thank you for saying that.

It makes so much sense when you explain that we need all 3, and people are who they are. And given where you are in your life, your age, your life experience, what you need in the moment, you need allies, you need pals, you need companions. And what I'm getting from this conversation is 95%, maybe even 99% of the frustrations that you feel in your relationships is that you are speaking and seeking the wrong language from a person in your life. And that's not on them. It's on you.

Yes.

And seeing people as they are instead of constantly being frustrated and pissed off that they can't read my mind or provide me what I'm looking for.

Yeah, it's liberating.

Yes.

I mean, I've, I've actually found myself saying to people, I know I can't read your mind. Can you read it to me?

Yeah, it's great. But you just handed me, you just decoded it for me.

Well, I think there's a paradox here, which is the more wavelengths you can connect with someone on, the closer you tend to be. Our, our best friends, our best partners as well, our favorite collaborators, our ride or die. All of those people tend to have elements of allies, pals, and companions blended in our interactions.

Yeah.

But I think the, the other side of that is that if you put all of the people in your life into all of those buckets, you are putting undue burden on every relationship. And we see this in marriages. We know that if your partner is always your number one companion, pal, and ally, you're more likely to be stressed because you're just holding them to unrealistic expectations. We also know that if you go to different friends for different things, you actually have higher wellbeing. You're happier, you're less likely to be depressed and exhausted than if you have one friend who's always your ally, pal, and companion.

I absolutely love this. What are you saying to your students at Wharton about careers and the number one skill that they need to be thinking about?

I actually think there are 3 skills that are critical now. The first one is we have gone from a world of information scarcity to information abundance. And what that means is you used to achieve success by collecting facts. In a knowledge economy, the person who had the most expertise was the most valued. Now, in a world of information abundance, that's no longer true. And what matters is not collecting facts, it's connecting dots.

Mm.

It's the ability to recognize patterns, to synthesize different pieces of information, to reconcile competing ideas that ultimately, I think, is gonna help people succeed. And so, I think if the past belonged to the fact collectors, the future belongs to the dot connectors.

I love that.

That's the first one. Secondly, I think the currency of career growth used to be ability. The more capable you were, the faster you rose. That was true in a stable world. Now we live in a dynamic world where the pace of change is accelerating. What matters now is not your ability, it's your agility. The people who rise the fastest, the people who achieve the greatest success, are the ones with the greatest motivation and ability to learn. And the third one is, I think the one thing that bots and machines cannot easily replicate is human experience. Live interaction is really hard to substitute for. And I think people are complicated. I think conversation is messy, but if you get good at understanding other people's needs and goals, at helping them grapple with their challenges, at being a good friend, being a good advisor, being a curious question asker, then you are bringing something indispensable that other people have a hard time finding. When I think about what it means to master the art of connecting with other people, I think about a term. It's inverse charisma.

Inverse charisma.

Yeah, inverse charisma. I originally came across it— E.M. Forster's biographer coined the term. Forster apparently had this magical ability to make you more charismatic when he talked to you because he asked such thoughtful questions and listened so attentively and then asked you follow-ups that brought out a sharper, wiser, more magnetic version of you. And I think that if charisma was what made people successful in the social media era, it's inverse charisma, the ability to make others more charismatic, that might drive success in the AI era.

Knowing that you're one of the most sought-after speakers and teachers and consultants in the corporate space, I bet you're getting this question over and over and over again, and I would love to hear your thoughts on this. For the person that feels like they are under an avalanche at work.

Yeah.

Between all of the tech platforms, the changing demands with AI, the fact that there's a reduction in the number of people on your team, it— how do you know what to focus on? Because this is a question I get at every single place I speak to, and it feels as though people are on a treadmill and it's just Somebody's making you go faster and faster and faster and faster and faster. And so what I hear under that question is, how do I even know what's important? 'Cause when everything's important, nothing's important.

Yeah.

But I don't know what to do because the pressure's nonstop.

This is actually a great moment to come full circle because I struggle with this all the time. Like, what book do I wanna write next? What podcast topics do I wanna take on? What class do I wanna teach? What research projects do I wanna launch? Like, I could study anything, I could learn about anything, I could communicate about anything. I don't know what's, what's important and what to prioritize. I think what I've learned as I've stumbled a bunch of times through that is you wanna pay attention not just to what lights you up and to what other people need, but also where do you have the most unique value to add?

Hmm.

And this is a question that a lot of people overlook, is if you think about your job, it doesn't matter what's in your job description. What matters is what is the thing that you can do that other people can't? What is the task or the project or the interpersonal dynamic that makes you irreplaceable? That's what you should prioritize because that's the contribution that is going to last and that's gonna make the most impact. Ideally, you're trying to align where you add unique value to what the mission of your organization is. And I think that for me, mission is about impact. That's clearly a value you share. I think one of the questions that, that I love to reflect on is, If you were not doing your job, who would be worse off? Ooh. If you had never entered this field, if you had never joined this organization, if you'd never pursued this career or taken this role, who would be suffering? And when you start to name specific people or groups of people, they might be clients or customers or patients or readers.

Colleagues.

Yeah, colleagues even. Whoever comes to mind, Those people are the reason why your work matters. And if you don't know what to prioritize, find out how those people are hurting right now and look for ways to help them.

Ooh, that's a good one. And it could even start with just checking in with the person you report to and saying, what's the biggest problem that I can work on for you that would make your life easier? You will become indispensable if that's what you do.

Absolutely. What is your hardest problem right now?

Yes. Yes. I love that. Is there any advice on how you create inverse charisma?

If you're trying to create inverse charisma, there are a few things you can do. One is you shorten your, your talking time. Too many interactions are people just alternating monologues. It's true. Somebody asks you, how was your day? And you launch into a 19-minute rant. You have lost the other person. And that was a bad question, by the way. You should not ask someone, how was your day? What you wanna do is ask somebody a question that elicits a really interesting 1 to 2 minute answer. And that question might be, if we're talking about, you know, just catching up, it might be, tell me about what surprised you the most today. Let me go to a specific emotion. Tell me about your peak moment of joy. What was your biggest frustration today? Who irritated you? What did they do? And then you give that quick answer, and then I'm gonna then kind of rebound on that. I'm gonna riff on that, and we're gonna have a novel conversation that we've never had before.

Hmm.

My oldest daughter actually taught me a great example of a question that immediately elicits inverse charisma. She loves to ask people, do you think aliens are out there?

Ooh, I love that.

It's such a good question because it's not hard to answer. People have an immediate yes or no, and then they usually respond with a lot of enthusiasm and they'll say, absolutely. Haven't you seen Contact or Interstellar? Of course. Or they say, no, not at all. And then she says, why? Like, unpack that for me. And then they get fired up explaining their reasoning, and then they immediately get curious about what she thinks. Inverse charisma starts with asking people a question that you cannot wait to hear their answer to, and that as they answer it, it's gonna spark new thoughts in you, and you're both gonna learn something from whatever transpires, and you can't predict where the conversation is gonna go.

I love that, Adam. One topic I'd love to have you teach us a little bit about is the work that you've done, the research you've done, the research that you synthesized by some amazing colleagues and people that you respect about the reality of women in the workplace and the things that are unfair that are happening to us that we may not be aware of, and the things that we need to start doing differently so that we can succeed.

To be honest, Mellody, I'm actually embarrassed I was late to this conversation. For the first few years of my career, I avoided talking about gender differences in the workplace. I avoided talking about all the evidence that women are still held back professionally. I just said, as a man, it's not my place. I don't want to speak for women. And several of my female colleagues actually sat me down, and Nancy Rothbard and Sigal Barsade in particular, they sat me down and they said, it matters for a man to call out these problems. We wish it didn't. But it does. And sure enough, there is evidence showing that when women point out the gaps and disparities, people unfairly malign them as self-serving or complaining or whining. Whereas when a man points it out, people take it really seriously. And I wish that were not true, but it is. And so I think my first responsibility as a feminist is to call attention to the data, to a lot of the research that's being done, especially by women as well as men. That documents what the barriers are to advancement and success and then how we can collectively overcome them.

So if you are in a situation where you're working very hard and your head is down and you're not getting promoted, you're not getting paid what you want, you're not even getting the feedback, and you're seeing people that are less qualified, or you're seeing the idiot that's always like talking in the meeting get the job that you actually deserve, what are some of the things you want women in particular to think about?

Well, let's talk about Linda Babcock's research, because it's been eye-opening for me. What Linda shows is that women do a disproportionate amount of the office housework. Just like women carry an unfair share of the load at home of, you know, cooking and cleaning and driving places, they also do an undue amount of the thankless work at work. They are tasked with taking notes in meetings, with planning parties, with creating agendas. And I think that this is a huge problem. It's a big problem because these are tasks that need to be done, but they are not considered strategic.

Hmm.

And therefore they don't count in a performance review. They're not valued in a promotion. And women are both asked to do these tasks more often because people assume, oh, she's caring, she's warm, she wants to help. Whereas a man, I never would've expected him to care about another human being. I'm, I'm not gonna bother to ask. And then what Linda shows in her research with her colleagues is if women say no, they are penalized more.

Hmm.

Because they are violating the gender stereotype.

Hmm.

That pressures them to say yes to everything. Whereas if a man says no, nobody minds. If a woman says yes, it's taken for granted. She wants to help. Whereas a man says yes, he gets showered with praise and rewards. What a good guy. What I've taken away from Linda's work in this area is, number one, we need to stop dumping the office housework on women. Number two, women need to be given permission to say no. Linda started a No Club. It's a group of women who actually share their requests and they encourage each other to say no. And I think the question of how to do that is a really important one. So what does a good no look like? An effective no is a no that actually shows helpfulness and kindness.

Ah.

It's, hey, thank you so much for inviting me to be on the furniture committee. I am so honored that you respect my taste enough that you want me to design the chairs and arrange them. I just wanted to share with you, I have been actually asked to do a fair number of things that I originally did not know were part of my job. And just so you have visibility into my role, here are all the things that I'm doing. I wanna make sure that I'm prioritizing what really matters here. Can you help me think through which of these things I should be doing and which ones I should not have on my plate?

That's beautiful because you now just put it back on me and you did it in a way that was super amazing and sneaky because you teed up all the things you're working on, which as your manager, I probably had no clue you were doing that much stuff. And so you turned a no. into a point of visibility and getting clarity on strategy. What is one thing that you would tell your daughters, because you are a girl dad, um, is something that is an important skill to be thinking about if you do want to be promoted and seen as a strategic contributor?

I'm gonna say something that I am uncomfortable saying, 'cause I wish it weren't true, but I've had this conversation with my daughters. I think it is a travesty. It's 2026. That we are still in a world where when women assert their ideas, advocate for their skills, ask for promotions, they often get backlash. It's been called the likability penalty, and it's not actually competence that other people are threatened by, especially insecure men. It's agency, ambition, or what's sometimes, I think, unhelpfully called dominance.

Hmm.

And that's where we see, this is Ashley Rosette and her colleagues' research, the specific backlash against agentic women happens when people feel like, well, she's being too strong and too tough, and therefore she's violating expectations of kindness and of humility. And I think that's an unfortunate reality that needs to change. But I think in the meantime, I think that women need to be armed with that knowledge. And the conversation I've had with my daughters is the following. What I've said to them is, do not shy away from asserting your ideas. But no, unfortunately, when you're assertive, you are more likely to be stereotyped as aggressive than when I'm assertive. And that is wrong, full stop. But what that means is you have to work extra hard when you assert your ideas to also show openness to other people's views.

Hmm.

It means if you're going to ask for a promotion, Unfairly, you have to do a little bit of extra work to explain how you are gonna make that the best possible situation for the team or the organization, that you're not just asking for yourself. You even see this in negotiation. Linda Babcock and Hannah Riley Bowles have done some great experiments on this where they study how you can actually ask for a raise in— you can even ask for a raise for yourself in ways that signal care and concern. So you come in and you say, hey, Mel, I'm, I'm really excited about this job. I would love to take it. There's one hesitation, which is the salary, and I'm hoping you can make this an easy decision for me. I am going to negotiate for myself the way that I will represent you if you hire me. I am going to be tough but fair. I'm going to aim extremely high, but I'm going to do that respectfully. And so I'm actually going to demonstrate my negotiating skills. in our negotiation, and I hope you want that on the team.

Amazing.

Men should be doing this too, by the way. Everybody who's looking for a, a raise or a promotion should be negotiating that in ways that say, this is not just about me, it's going to serve others as well. But unfortunately, it's more important for women to do that given the world of gender stereotypes we live in.

You know, we've covered so much. If there's one takeaway or skill or thing you want the person to do after everything that you've taught us that you think is really important, just take a highlighter and say, I don't want you to forget this thing. Like, I want you to try this thing. What would it be?

The big takeaway of this conversation for me is that it's never too late. It is never too late to find your hidden potential and unlock it. It is never too late to reach out to somebody that you lost contact with. And get back in touch. It is never too late to ask for a raise or a promotion, not only because you believe you deserve it, but because you're ready to earn it. And I think that so often we write ourselves off, we write relationships off, we write opportunities off because we think we missed the window and we didn't. Milton Berle said, when opportunity doesn't knock, build a door. And I think that's great. But I think first you should look for a window you can open.

Or a rock that you can break apart so you can see all of this incredible potential inside.

And then you can throw the rock through the window if you need to break it.

Yes. Adam Grant, what are your parting words?

I, I just wanna say thank you. This is such a professional experience and I've learned so much, not only about the topics I care so deeply about, but also about how to, how to create a really meaningful conversation. And it's been a privilege to be a part of it. Thank you.

Well, the honor has been all mine. Thank you for the work that you do. Thank you for the way that you teach. Thank you for the passion that you bring to the work that you're doing. You have made me a better leader. You've made me a better companion, ally, and pal. I mean it. I don't really have the words to explain the impact that you've had on the person that I've become. Wow. Thank you.

Thank you for that.

You're welcome. And I also want to thank you. Thank you for making time and for spending it with Adam and with me. There is so much that I am going to go right back actually, after I'm done talking to you and re-listen to this. I have pages and pages of notes and I am so excited for you and I'm excited for everybody that you share this with. And one of the big things I want to leave you with The truth is this. The next time you find yourself locked in overthinking, is it this? Is it that? Remember, door C. And if you don't wanna open the door, pick up the damn rock and throw it through the window. There's your door and window C. And in case nobody else tells you, I wanted to be sure as your friend to remind you that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life and absolutely everything that Adam taught you today, every takeaway based on the research is how you create a better life. And I truly hope you do it. All right. I'll see you in the next episode.

I'm going to welcome you in the moment you hit play.

How many times will I trip on the way in?

Are you good? Do you need— not coffee, obviously. Okay, great. Do you need more water? I'm going to brush

the rock away.

Thank you.

Tracy, do you have any bike Do you want to give him a 6 just so we can, like, make him feel better?

I think one thing that we overlook is— yeah. Oh, there's, there's so much that we can do on this. So—

I love that. I love it when you get excited, Professor Grant. You're welcome. All right, let's remove the pebbles. I'm going to shove the binder right back at you.

Bingo.

Bingo. Adam Grant, you're a damn genius. Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know, what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.

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