Transcript of Reinvent Yourself At Any Age: Ina Garten Shares the Secret to Transforming Your Life

Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Today, you are in for a treat. We are cooking up something really cool on the show. We have Ina Garten. Yes, the Barefoot Contessa here on the Mel Robbins Podcast. She is the Emmy and James Beard Award-winning host and bestselling cookbook author. She's a woman who spent decades Teaching millions of us how to cook, entertain, and make everyday life feel just a little more special. But you know what I love most about Ina? It's not all the food. It's the way she lived her life. See, before the cookbooks, before television, before anyone knew her name, Ina worked at the Office of Budget and Management, like a nuclear energy policy job. Oh my God. And then at 30 years old, She made one decision that changed everything. She walked away from the safe, stable career to a specialty food store in the Hamptons called Barefoot Contessa. And check this out, Ina didn't know a thing about running a business. She just knew she needed something different. She bet on herself. As Ina's gonna tell you, she worked scared. And that's why this conversation is so much bigger than cooking.

If you're feeling stuck or if your life looks fine on paper, but something inside you is saying you need more. What if you had more fun? What if you took a risk? And if you're sitting there telling yourself you're too old, too late, too inexperienced, too scared to make a change, you better turn this off right now because Ina is gonna tell you you're wrong. And she's gonna share with you her simple recipe For success at any age. Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so fired up for today. I love today's guest. I had never met her in person. We are going to sit down with the one, the only, Ina Garten. This is going to be way more than cooking. You're going to get the recipe for reinventing yourself. If you're new, if somebody shared this with you, I just wanna take a moment and welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. We have the legendary Ina Garten, the Barefoot Contessa herself, here to help you discover how to reinvent yourself at any age and transform your life. Let me tell you a little bit about Ina Garten.

She's one of the most beloved and influential figures in food and television alive today. Now, I love her. My mother loves her. You love her. There is probably a Barefoot Contessa cookbook within 100 yards of you right now. It's either in your kitchen or your parents' kitchen, or maybe one of your siblings' kitchen. She's a bestselling cookbook author of 14 cookbooks, an Emmy and James Beard Award-winning host. She is the woman behind Barefoot Contessa, a brand that shaped the way millions of us cook and entertain. She is also the author of the memoir, Be Ready When the Luck Happens. Which is the perfect title for the way she has lived her life. And today, at the age of 78, she's in the middle of launching a new chapter herself. And if she can do it, so can you, because she's gonna give you her simple recipe to a successful life. Please help me welcome Ina Garten to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Thanks, Mel. I'd love to start by just asking you if the person takes everything to heart that we're about to talk about, What might change about life?

I find that the really scary things I've done have been the making of my life. And so it's really worth doing. Because otherwise, I think we all follow where our lives go, but we don't make deliberate decisions. And when you make a deliberate decision in the furtherance of what you love to do, and it's really important to do, otherwise you're not in control. And I think having some agency with your life is so important.

I agree with you. And there was something about what you just said that I wanna make sure I highlight because already you're dropping takeaways. And that is, you said, it's being deliberate in furtherance of what you love doing. And that brings me to kind of where the story begins, at least in your blockbuster bestseller, Be Ready When the Luck Happens. Your memoir's fantastic, by the way.

Thank you, Mel.

My mother-in-law bought it for me because she knows that I'm such an enormous fan of yours. And I read it furiously one rainy afternoon in Vermont. And I love where the story in the memoir begins because you're 30 years old. And never in a million years would I have thought you worked for the Office of Management and Budget at the White House.

And nuclear energy policy. Don't forget that.

Nuclear energy? What? I don't know. You tell me. I have no idea what nuclear energy policy is. And on page 4, you write, there has to be something more fun than this. The only good thing about having a low threshold for boredom is that I've always been willing to take crazy risks just to get out of that miserable state. In my bureaucratic job, I was just part of the larger process, but I wanted to be the process, to do my own thing, either in real estate or in the food business. And for better or for worse, to make my own decisions and mistakes. I'd love for you to put us right at that scene where you're 30 years old and you're kind of bored with your job, because I think we've all had that moment. But what you do in that moment is what determines your life.

Well, I was sitting in my office and I had been at Office of Management and Budget for 4 years at that point. And I was feeling like I work really hard. Sometimes we'd pull all-nighters to make sure what the president needed for his budget or for some legislation was taken care of. But literally, I felt like nothing had happened. And nothing changed. And so why am I working so hard at something where nothing's happening? And that was in the 1970s. And so I was reading the New York Times. And I just happened for the first time in my life to see the business opportunity section where people advertise like dry cleaners and head shops and coffee shops. Uh-huh. And I saw this small ad for business for sale. And it was a specialty food store in a place I'd never been. And I thought, God, that's sounds like fun.

That was the moment?

That was the moment. Yeah. I thought that just sounds like more fun than what I'm doing here. And so I went home that night and I said to Jeffrey, I just really, my job's boring. It's not, I don't feel like I do anything. I just, I work really hard. You have a sense that what you're doing is going to the president. So it's not, it doesn't just evaporate into the air, but nothing really happens. And I want something to happen. And I'm never gonna be the head of this organization. They are never gonna choose a girl to be the head of OMB. So what am I doing here? And he said to me, the most important thing, he said, do what you think is fun. If it's fun, you'll be really good at it. And I thought this is a really, really important thing to remember, that whatever you do without thinking about it, just because you love doing it. What did you do when you were 10? And what did you think was fun organizing the kids in the neighborhood? Do that. Because it's before we had all those shoulds. Yeah. I should be a lawyer.

I should be a doctor. This is what I just feel like doing. And so I said, well, I saw this ad for a business for sale on this food store. I've never been in the food business. And he said, let's go take a look at it.

Wow.

And only recently did he tell me he thought he was humoring me. He thought, oh, let's just go look at it. This is never gonna happen. And then the next weekend, we drove up to West Hampton.

And you'd never been there?

Never been to West Hampton before. It was April, and West Hampton in April, it's a beach town.

Okay.

There's nothing going on. I mean, there's like tumbleweed down the middle of the street. And there was this tiny little store. It was 400 square feet, and it was open. And I walked in, and they were baking chocolate chip cookies. And I thought, okay, this is where I want to be. I don't know anything about it, but I'm gonna figure it out.

What was it about that moment when you walked in? Was it a feeling?

It just felt good. It felt like it was a business I could understand. It smelled good. It looked good. It felt like instead of high heels and silk blouses, I could work in sneakers and blue jeans. And it just felt like I could create something.

Now, I just want to set the table, though, for a second. I just realized I made a pun there, but I didn't mean to do that. You live in Washington, D.C.?

Yeah.

This is what, like a 4 or 5-hour drive?

5-hour drive, at least. Yeah.

You've never been there?

Yeah.

You've never owned a business?

Yeah.

You've never owned a food store?

I'd never had an employee before.

Never had an employee before. And your husband humors you To go take a look, 'cause maybe it'll shut you up, and you'll see, like, I don't know, like, just to be nice, you know?

I think he didn't think he was gonna shut me up, but he thought I was starting the process to try and figure out what was next, never realizing this was next.

Wow. Okay, I wanna stop right there because one of the things that I love about this story is that a lot of us have these moments. In fact, I'm gonna argue that most of us have these kind of moments, if we're paying attention, almost every day. Actually, John Grisham calls these moments the golden moment. It's a moment that you never see coming, but a light goes off inside you. And if you follow it, it forever changes the trajectory of your life.

Exactly.

And so, you have this moment where if you stopped and thought about it, you would've talked yourself out of it in a nanosecond, but you followed it. And then, You get there and something awakens, but it still doesn't seem rational.

Well, it doesn't have to be rational. It just has to be, I'm leaving something I don't like, and I'm going towards something that sounds like it would be really fun to do. And the difference was I was working in the government on budgets that were literally $20 billion budgets, which at the time was a lot. It's still a lot, but it was particularly a lot then, to something that was like $100, but it was my $100.

Mm.

And I felt that it would be really exciting to learn this business and to figure it out. And going back was not an option.

Wow. I'm having a hard time picturing you at the Office of Management and Budget because ever since I followed you, I've seen you cooking. And so, I never knew this version of you. I've only known the Barefoot Contessa version of you.

There's not much difference. I think cooking is science. And when I was a kid, I was a science nerd. I loved science. And I think the difference between nuclear energy policy and having a specialty food store is not that big a difference because they're all experimentation. It's all, if you study science, you're testing things. If you're cooking, you're testing things. But instead of ending up with like gibberellic acid, you end up with roast chicken. So which would you rather have?

Definitely the roast chicken. And a lot of your recipes with roast chicken have a little vinegar in them. So that has a little acid. That's exactly right. Yes. I actually am a big fan of your cooking. And there is another thing that you just said, and that is that a lot of us opt out because we think what we're doing now doesn't qualify us for what we would like to be doing. And if you're willing to walk toward the thing that you would have fun at, you can figure it out, and you will quickly realize that everything that you've ever done leads you somewhere and prepares you in ways you don't even realize.

I actually didn't know that until I wrote the memoir. I actually thought everything I did that was outrageous and totally different was something completely new. And only when I wrote the memoir did I realize that when I was in Washington, because I didn't find my job that exciting, I taught myself how to cook. I would buy old houses and renovate them and sell them. So I'd go to the bank and negotiate loans. I would work on renovations. I taught myself how to do that. I went to business school at night. When I was working at the White House. I mean, I did a lot of things for the fun of it. And then when I looked back, I thought I knew nothing. But in fact, I knew more than I gave myself credit for. And it took until 2024 for me to actually realize that.

Wow. It helped you connect the dots.

It connected the dots. And it also made me realize that what I was doing with the store was everything that I love to do. It was borrowing money and investing. It was building things, building a new store. It was cooking. It was the first time that my job actually included everything that I love to do.

Well, it wasn't easy, though. So, I would love to go from that moment where you walk in and you're like, oh my gosh, to what it was actually like, 'cause you then bought it.

I did buy it. And I did one thing that was smart. I bought it, but I made a deal with the seller that she would stay for a month and teach me what I need to know, 'cause I didn't know anything. I didn't know anything. I didn't know how to cash out a register. I didn't know how to slice smoked salmon. I could bake 12 brownies for my friends, but I didn't know how to bake 1,000 brownies.

Was there any moment where you had like a pit in your stomach and you realized, what have I done?

I think after the first week, I said to Jeffrey, this is the stupidest thing I've ever done in my life.

Well, one of my favorite stories that I think will shock the person listening is, again, You're living in Washington, D.C. You have bought this storefront that is 4 or 5 hours away in a summer community that you've never been to. And so you guys get a rental. And even that doesn't go according to plan.

That was crazy. We decided that we needed to have a— I needed a place to live while I'm there. And Jeffrey was going to come on the weekends. So we rented a house. And then when I went to the house, right before Memorial Day to move in, there was a family living there. I was like, excuse me, this is my rental. They said, no, it's ours. And it turns out that the owner of the house had rented it twice. Ah! And, you know, the weekend before Memorial Day, you can't find a rental anywhere. So we actually decided, I said to them, okay, well, I'm not gonna be here very much 'cause I'm running a specialty food store, and my husband lives in Washington. So maybe we could just rent it together. So I moved my stuff into one of the bedrooms and went to the other room And we rented that house together. And they were absolutely adorable, lovely people.

That's incredible.

Isn't that crazy?

It's crazy. I know. Well, because one of the things that I also admire about you is you have this, if there's a will, there's a way. I'm gonna figure this out.

Yeah.

And a lot of us would show up at a rental that's already full and see that as a sign that things aren't gonna happen. But you have this unbelievable ability to tinker and figure it out.

I have to say, I think Jeffrey taught me this. If there are 2 things you can't decide which one to do, his advice was, initial reaction is, let's figure out how to do both of them. I think a lot of stress comes from who gets to decide.

Yeah.

I think a lot of relationships fall apart on that, is who gets to decide. How about we don't decide? How about we do everything?

Oh, that's a great life philosophy.

It is, isn't it?

Well, one of the things that you figured out in the early days is just how hard it is to do this. And I love the story of you falling asleep Underneath the counter and driving the station wagon. So, can you share with, you know, the person listening some of the early days, what it actually took?

Well, it is a very hard business. I loved every minute of it, but I'm not minimizing how physically hard it is. So, I would get to the store at 5 o'clock in the morning, and I would make sure everything was organized for the chef and the front of the house. We would open at 8 or 9 o'clock in the morning, and we would go all day. And then at 6 o'clock, the first weekend particularly, we closed the store store at maybe 6 o'clock on Friday of Memorial Day weekend, there wasn't anything left in the store. I mean, nothing. We really weren't prepared for the long weekend. And I just said to the woman who had sold it to me, what are we going to do? She said, no problem. We're going to go to the grocery store, and we're going to buy flour, and sugar, and chocolate. And we're going to buy chicken, and we're going to make chicken salad, and we're going to make chocolate cake. And we're just— and we stayed all night and cooked and baked. And then we just basically stayed and opened the store the next day. And we did it again the day after that.

And by now, you're like working on nervous energy. But I loved doing it. And it was fun, and it was engaging, and it was challenging. And I said to myself, I'm gonna run this store exactly the way the seller ran it, and I'm gonna figure out how to do it differently over the winter when it's closed. And that's what I did.

There was a moment, though, Where your husband turned to you and said, I don't think you're gonna make it here.

That was the first weekend. It was actually before. I bought the store on Thursday of Memorial Day weekend. On Thursday? So Thursday before Memorial Day weekend. I didn't know what Memorial Day weekend in the Hamptons was. I came from Washington. So I bought it on Thursday, and the seller, whose name was Diana Estrada, who was wonderful, great teacher, said, I'm gonna show you how to cash out the register. And there was $87 in the register for the entire day. And that was gross before you paid the rent or the employees. And Jeffrey had a calculator, and he multiplied 87 times the number of days in the summer, and he said, I don't think you're gonna make it here. What we didn't know was Friday of Memorial Day weekend was a completely different story. And that's when, on Friday, at the end of the day, we were cleaned out. Then I thought, oh, wait. There might be something here.

There was definitely something there, and you were just getting started. You know, I've also heard you talk about the fact that when you take on new challenges, You're willing to do it working scared.

Yeah.

What does that mean?

I think that we stop ourselves because we think, you know, if you're standing on the side of the pond and you're trying to decide whether you should jump in the pond, there might be fish in there. It might be cold. It might be really deep. You don't know what you're getting into, and you can't decide what to do when you're standing on the side of the pond. You gotta jump in the pond, splash around, see what it is, and figure out what to do about it. And maybe while you're in that pond, you can look over there and go, oh, that's actually a really interesting place to go, that you would never have seen if you weren't in the pond. Hmm. So I think you just— I feel like you just need to jump in the pond. We talk ourselves out of so many things because we think, well, I can't possibly know everything. And what am I going to do if something unexpected comes along? You know what? You'll figure it out. And I actually came across an expression that I just adore that's really changed me. It was from J.P. Morgan. A friend of mine told me this.

Go as far as you can see, and when you get there, you'll be able to see farther. You don't need to know the answer to every question that you have. You just need to figure out as far as you can see, make the decisions that are the best decisions. And when you get there, you'll be able to see more.

I love that.

Isn't that a great expression?

It's beautiful. It's so true.

Because you don't need to know where you're going. You just need to know what you're going to do today and tomorrow.

That's true. And then as you move forward, what you see changes.

Changes. Yeah. You

don't have— 'cause you— we— I've wasted decades of my life standing there thinking, okay, I hate being a lawyer. What's my calling? You don't need to know.

You don't need to know. Yeah.

You just need to know that in those moments where you're sitting there at a budget desk doing nuclear policy, or you're commuting to a big law firm, and you feel the just stomach clenching as you go into the office building, That, that's a sign that you don't need to know the bigger picture. You need to know that this is not for you anymore.

And actually, one of the things I find is I never figure out where I'm going. I just figure out what I'm gonna do today. I do the best job I can. And before I'm done for the day, I figure out what I'm gonna do tomorrow. I start the day with purpose. I don't start the day thinking, okay, what should I do today? I start the day with purpose, and I end the day with what I'm gonna do the next day. And see where it goes. And it's— I think it's so much better in the long run to be open to whatever comes along rather than say, I want to get from here to being a lawyer.

Yeah.

Because you might miss something along the way that would have been more interesting.

You have this other saying that I absolutely love. If it's not fun, it's not done.

I think I borrowed that from somebody. I don't know who, but it's true. And it doesn't mean everything in my life is fun. It just means it's either fun on its own, or it's in the furtherance of fun.

Yeah.

So, like, I think in the food business, I love the creativity of it, and I love the challenge of it. But if you don't take care of business, you don't get to do the fun stuff.

That's true.

So, I think that I find the business interesting and challenging, but it's all in the furtherance of being able to do something creative and fun.

That's very important. I want to make sure I put a highlighter on that. Because if you reframe the things you hate doing, as, I am doing this because it's in furtherance of the thing I love doing. Now you've just given meaning to the things you hate doing. We do that here all the time, actually. You're making me think about a meeting we had this morning, where we had an episode dropping this morning, and at 7:53 in the morning, we were arguing over this, like, super dumb detail on social media about whether or not the video needed a thumbnail uploaded or embedded, and the title. And we're just like, da-da-da! And it was not fun, but it's in furtherance.

In furtherance of it.

Yes, of the impact we wanna make. And I love that reframing.

Thank you.

You're a genius! Oh,

I'm just so— You are!

All right. All right. Amazing. You are amazing. And it's not just the recipes that you're cooking up. You're giving us— A recipe for a different mindset and a different approach that opens up possibility in your life.

I think too, as a woman, I think things have changed since I was in the government, but I don't think it's changed completely. And I decided that— I said earlier that somebody was never going to choose me, probably a man, was never going to choose me to be the head of OMB, which was why bother working so hard for something that I'm never going to succeed at? And I thought, I need a an alternate track that's mine, where the only thing that will limit me is my own talent and my own drive. And I think I've done that, which is really great.

You've definitely done that. And the piece not to miss as you're listening is recognizing that ultimately, it's on you.

It's on you.

You know, I just want to stay on this theme, Ina. It's on you. And it's on you to stick around after this short break with our sponsors, because when we come back, there is a story that Ina's gonna tell you about her necklace. And it's an important story about your reputation, and how people see you. And a simple thing that you can do to change the way people treat you. I love this story, and so will you. Don't go anywhere. We will be back after this short break. Stay with us.

You gotta jump in the pond, splash around, see what it is, and figure out what to do about it. And maybe while you're in that pond, you can look over there and go, oh, that's actually a really interesting place to go that you would never have seen if you weren't in the pond.

That's the one and only Ina Garten. You know her as the Barefoot Contessa. And today she is telling you the stories from her remarkable life and the lessons that she learned. And you heard her, you gotta jump in the pond, you gotta stop waiting on the side. And one of the stories that I love about you, Ina, is one that you tell when you first started this business. You're 30 years old, you're in the fancy Hamptons, and you didn't like how the customers were treating you because they were just treating you like, you know, somebody who's hired to work there, nobody important. And you did one small thing, it's almost kind of funny, that changed everything. Would you tell the story about the necklace?

Oh, my gold necklace. I still have it. When I was first running the store, the first summer, I was 30 years old, and the woman who sold it to me was teaching me how to run the store. run the store. And customers would come in and they'd go, do this, get me that. They were on my case all the time. And I was like, I own this store. Why are they treating me like this? I didn't like that they treated my employees like that either. But Diana said to me, she said, you need to wear some jewelry and they'll know that you own the store. So I walked across the street to a jewelry store. And I bought what I thought was the gaudiest, biggest gold necklace I've ever seen in my life. And And I put it on and I walked into the store and people said, oh, is this your store? I thought it was so interesting to nonverbally change my relationship with the customers. We could change the conversation by changing ourselves. We don't always have to change the other person. And that's what happened with the customers. I wanted to change the conversation with them and I changed something I did.

And it was very effective.

There is another thing that you noticed. You're jumping in the pond and splashing around. And in the beginning, you started making all kinds of fancy food, and it didn't sell. And it gave you this epiphany about what people actually wanted.

Which has totally informed all of my cookbooks.

Yes.

So, in the beginning, I thought it was a specialty food store, it was a fancy area, it was the Hamptons, and I'm gonna make really fancy food. So, I started making Veal with morels. I remember taking a huge platter. I wanted to put roast chicken on this big white platter, fresh herbs all over the place, and it didn't sell. And I was like, what am I doing wrong? And I took that big platter and I went back in the kitchen and I took the chickens off the big gorgeous platter with the fabulous fresh herbs and put them in little red and white check, you know, those—

Oh, like those picnic basket things?

Well, like— Like you roll Like you would get French fries in. And I just lined them up on the counter, and they sold in 10 minutes. And I thought, oh, people have elegant tastes, but they don't want fancy food at home. They want to go out for something fancy, but at home, they want roast chicken, they want lobster salad, they want, like, simple, earthy things.

Yeah.

Just by experimenting— that's my scientific background. I would put out 5 things and see which one people wanted. And you never know what it is, but you have to just keep trying. I'll tell you a story. When I moved to— East Hampton, I got these— I had them made, actually, these huge tables. I wanted the pastry section to be on tables like a Viennese dessert table. It wasn't behind refrigerated glass. It was out. Yeah. It was open. And I had the cabinetmaker put drawers in the front of those tables so that I could put things in while people are waiting to have their chocolate cake boxed up. They're just standing there with nothing to do. I thought, oh, it's a great opportunity to merchandise something to them. So, I put in little packages of cookies. They didn't know didn't sell. I put in packages of muffins, they didn't sell. Every week I'd put in something else to see what would sell. And none of it sold. I put in coffee, it didn't sell. And then one time I ordered a lot of granola and it just flew out of the store. And I thought, isn't that interesting?

I would never have chosen granola as being the thing that would sell there. But I think when people are buying something kind of a little decadent like a chocolate cake, they say, oh, I'll have something healthy like granola. And for the rest of the time that I had the store, we had granola in those drawers. It's all a science experiment, and you never know what the answer's gonna be. If you decide in advance that you think you know what the answer is, you're wrong.

I've got a very funny story to tell you, actually, about this same thing and experimenting. So, it's funny, I feel a little, like, shy about telling you this story, but I was a public defender in New York City after law school, and I loved that job. And then my husband— I blame everything on poor Chris Robinson. My husband gets into business school up here in Boston and also gets a job while he's going to business school. So, I have to leave this job I love, and the only job I could find was working for a large law firm, which I hated. The exact opposite of being a public defender in New York City. And so, I started thinking to myself, I hate this job, but I need the money. What have I always thought I wanted to do? And I was such a fan of yours. Oh, thank you. And in particular, I loved the way you displayed things.

Oh, thank you.

And the different tiered— like, it just looked so gorgeous.

Were you in the store?

No, I only saw the photos, for crying out loud. And so, I was an admirer from afar, and I thought, you know what I'm gonna do? I've always wanted to own a bakery. I've always wanted to own a bakery like Barefoot Contessa because it looked so gorgeous. I know. What an incredible story. But wait till you hear this. So I get a job on the weekends.

Where?

Working at a bakery outside of Boston. It wasn't— it didn't last long because let me tell you something. This is why it's important to jump in. This is why it's important to notice what you're drawn toward. This is why it's important to experiment. So I decide I'm gonna get a job working at a bakery on the weekends, and that way I can kind of learn the business behind it. the scenes and experiment. Let me tell you, it took exactly 6 hours on my first Saturday, showing up at 6 o'clock in the morning, making carrot muffins, filling sugar dispensers, filling napkins, wiping counters down, taking out garbage bags that weighed £30 because people put coffee in, that made me realize I don't like this. I don't— I, I, I do not have what it takes to own a bakery. Here's the epiphany Because this relates back to what you were saying. You don't have to see all the way. Go as far as you can see. And all I could see is, I think maybe I want a bakery 'cause I'm so inspired by what Barefoot Contessa looks like.

Isn't that interesting?

And then I went that far, and I realized, wait, I don't actually want to own a bakery and run one. I wanna have control over my life and community so that when I walk into Barefoot Contessa, I have a little bit of time to sit down and have a cup of coffee. And the owner and I know each other. It was really meant for me, but it had a different lesson in it.

How old were you?

Oh my gosh. This would've been, I don't know, probably 25 years ago? Or 30.

I think our 20s are for experimenting. Unless you're Itzhak Perlman and you know you're always gonna be a violinist, or Taylor Swift and you always know you're gonna be a singer-songwriter. As you said, our 20s are for experimenting. Your 20s are for experimenting. Try everything. And you're gonna learn something from each experience that's gonna say, I wanna go in that direction. I don't wanna go in that direction. And then by the time you're 30, you've had those experiences. And now you know what you like, and you can figure out how to make that into a business.

Yes.

And that's what you did.

Yeah. Well, I knew I didn't wanna own Barefoot Contessa. That's for sure. I did not have it in me. That's for sure. You know, for somebody who's sitting there listening, Saying, I just think it's too late. I think it's too late to start over.

It's never too late. I think, didn't the founder of Kentucky Fried Chicken start when he was 50?

Yeah.

Right? I mean, it's never too late. Just forget your age. Just think about what you want to do. I mean, I couldn't run Barefoot Contessa now. But I've done that. And I used it to figure out what the next stage was. Then I used that to figure out the next stage. But just figure out what you'd like to do. If you know what you like to do, just think of how you can make that into a business. And I knew somebody that loved to write, and they loved to watch movies. I mean, how do you make a business out of that? And she got a job as the movie critic for a local newspaper. I mean, that's— just think about what you love to do and figure out how you can do it more.

Well, at one point, you realize you're gonna sell the store.

Yeah.

Can you put us at the scene of that decision and what led to it?

I can't do this one more day. I don't wanna smell like fish.

carrot muffins in the granola anymore, people. I'm outta here.

And you— but no, but you understand, it's really hard. And I was running the— I mean, there were times when I was running 2 stores, but I was running the store in East Hampton and catering at night. So I would start at 6 o'clock in the morning and get home at 12 or 1 o'clock in the morning. And, you know, at some point you just go, I can't, I just can't do this anymore. And also, I knew how to do it. It wasn't exciting. It wasn't challenging. There weren't problems to solve. And it was time to try something new. So, I tried to figure out what to do, and I tried to figure out how to sell it. And my wonderful accountant, Susanna, and I were talking about it, and she said, why don't you sell it to the employees? And so, we figured out a way to sell it to the chef and the manager. And I financed it, and they— one day, they were the owners.

That's amazing.

It was great.

Now, I know after you sold the store, Jeffrey, your husband, tells you, you love food. Why not think of another way to do it?

Well, that was after a year of having nothing to do. And that was the hardest part. year of my life. That was the scariest transition I've ever made. Because there were times in that year that I would go to the store thinking, I just gave up the most interesting career I'll ever have.

Mm.

And I have no idea where this is gonna go. And about 9 months in, Jeffrey said, so, what do you have to do this week? And I was like, I have nothing to do. He said, you must have something. And I was like, I have a manicure on Wednesday. But that was it. And he said to me, you know, you love the food business. Why don't you think of a different way to do the food business other than running a specialty food store? And I said, well, people have asked me to write a cookbook, but it seemed like such a lonely thing. The store felt like a party.

Yeah.

And writing a cookbook—

A community.

A community. And it was— and I always wanted the music, and I wanted samples, and everybody having fun, and I wanted it to feel like a party. Whereas writing a cookbook just seemed like a very solitary thing to do. But I didn't have anything else to do, so I thought, oh, well, I'll write a proposal and see what happens. And I just wrote a proposal. I sent it to the top cookbook editor thinking I'll never hear from them. And a week later, they said, thank you very much. We accept your proposal. And I was like, now I have to write a cookbook? And I literally put the money aside thinking I'll be sending this back because I have no idea how to write a cookbook.

This is shocking to me.

Why?

And to the person listening.

Why?

First of all, it's shocking because we know you as a person who has written a bazillion cookbooks.

Yeah, well, I had no idea.

And even thinking about the fact that you created an iconic store that people loved. And so, it never would even occur to me.

Do you know, I hadn't thought about this until now. One of the things that I do, if I decide to do something like run a specialty food store, or write a cookbook, or do a television show, I don't want to do it the way other people do it. I always think to myself, I'm not going to do this until I figure out how I can do it better. And I think that's one of the things that has served me very well, that if I'm gonna write a cookbook, I'm gonna write the cookbook that I wanna write. I'm not gonna write the cookbook that sells. I'm not gonna write the cookbook other people think I should write. I get an idea in my head about what that book should be. In that case, it was really simple recipes that I know will work every time, gorgeous photographs, and ingredients you can get in the grocery store. That was my mantra. And it worked. I think I really connected with an audience in that way.

You absolutely did. And you also just shared the formula for true success, which is when you get clear about the way you want to do something and why, and you're able to block out the noise of what everybody else is doing, you've just aligned your truest intentions and your self-expression with something that you feel called to do. And you know what else I really love about you?

What?

I don't think you have a clue how admired and impactful you are in people's lives.

Thank you. Not a clue. A friend of mine says, you're the only person who has absolutely no idea who Ina Garten is. And I think she's right.

Well, that's also part of your success because you've stayed true To yourself, and you realize—

And it hasn't changed me at all.

Correct.

Yeah.

And you do it for the fun of it and the love of it, not for the recognition of it.

Not at all. Yeah.

Yes. It comes through like the smell of fresh croissants in a bakery. It really, it just oozes out of you.

Thank you. Thank you. I don't really get it, but I'm just delighted. I'm delighted that people connect with what I do, which is wonderful. And as you— you must.

You know, it's not always easy, Ina, to stay true to yourself. And so I wanna just hover on this because there's a really incredible example of how you had to be true to yourself. It's one of the hardest conversations that you ever had, and it almost cost you the most important relationship that you cared most about. And we're gonna dig into that moment. moment when we return. So stay with me.

You don't need to know the answer to every question that you have. You just need to figure out as far as you can see, make the decisions that are the best decisions. And when you get there, you'll be able to see more.

That's Ina Garten. You know her as the Barefoot Contessa. But today she is here with you and me in our Boston studios, and we are hearing some of the remarkable stories and moments from her life. And I love that one. That's one of those quotes, Ina, that I think I'm going to share with my kids all the time. As far as you can see, just make the best decisions from where you are, and when you get there, you'll be able to see more. It's so true. You can only see so far right now. You know, one of the deeply personal stories that you share in your memoir is what happened when you started becoming more independent. As the business was cooking along, you began to change, and you realized your marriage had to change with it. Could you put us at that moment where you were taking a walk with your husband Jeffrey on the beach?

I think it was a confluence of a few things. It was the first summer when I had the He would come to West Hampton on the weekends when I was the busiest. And I knew I was neglecting him completely. And then he would leave on Sunday night to go back just when I had a few, you know, a moment to breathe.

Yeah.

I had a new store, which I don't have children, but I imagine it's like having a new baby. You just want to be with that. I wanted the freedom to do whatever I wanted to do. But I also had never lived on my own. I really didn't know who I was on my own. So I went from my parents' house to Jeffrey's house. And I just felt like I needed to find out who I was on my own.

Yeah.

And to shift gears in terms of what our roles were in the relationship. And he said the thing that was the most difficult to walk away from is, if you feel like you need to be on your own, you need to be on your own. Which made me just love him more, which was really hard. I mean, he wasn't mad. He was incredibly empathetic. He was on a journey. trip around the world for the State Department for several months. And then we met again when he came back in, I guess it was in December, in Palm Springs. And we just talked. We talked about what he wanted, what I wanted. We figured out how we could do both.

There it is again. How do we do both?

And I remember thinking, wow, this is incredible. Falling in love with this incredible guy who just happens to be my husband.

Well, I want to like unpack this a little bit because I really thought this was quite remarkable.

And scary.

And scary.

Yeah, really scary.

'Cause you guys had been married for 10 years, and you've just now bought this freaking gourmet food store. You're living separately, and then you're trying to cram in, like, time together during the busiest time. Then he's leaving, and then you're deflated, and then you're right back in it, and you're growing apart. But I wanna read to you, 'cause you've got this beautiful section here where you're reflecting, when I bought Barefoot Contessa, I shattered our traditional roles. Took a baseball bat to them and left them in pieces. While I was still cooking, cleaning, shopping, managing, and so on at the store, I was doing it as a businesswoman, not a wife. My responsibilities made it impossible for me to even think about anything else. There was no expectation about who got home from work first and what they should do because I never got home from work. And then you write, sometime in the middle of the summer, we went for a walk on the beach. It was the hardest thing I ever did, but I found the courage to start the painful conversation. I told him that I needed to be on my own. I didn't say whether it was for now or forever.

I didn't know.

And what we're learning is you don't have to know. You just have to— you just see as far as you can.

Start the conversation.

How did starting the conversation change everything when you didn't know? 'Cause a lot of us don't even start the conversation, even if the conversation is, I don't know what I'm feeling, but I just know it's not working.

I think because we can't control the response. So you have to start the conversation even though you have no idea what the response is. But the response tells you something about the person you're talking to and whether they're willing to hear you and to bend a little bit, or whether they're rigid and not willing to change.

I love this page in your book. It's page 153, and we circled it. And just like that, I was alone. So, what did it feel like to have that conversation, and then for the first time ever, be alone?

I ran the store for the whole summer, and then I moved into New York. I found an apartment, terrible little apartment that I could afford. And I was on my own. I didn't know anybody in New York. I didn't know what I was gonna do over the winter. I had to get to April when I opened the store again, and I literally had nothing to do and no friends. And I— it was hard. It was really hard. I kind of went down the rabbit hole. And Jeffrey used to call and check on me, which was really lovely. And he said, what are you doing? I said, I'm in bed. Can't get out of bed. He said, okay, get up. Put on the yellow skirt and the white blouse. and get on the train and come to Washington where your friends are. And I'm going on a trip around the world, and just stay in our house and figure out what you want to do. He didn't try and solve the problem. He just gave me the access to surround myself with people that could help. And that's what I did.

What did you learn about yourself while taking that time to be alone?

Hard to be on your own if you've never been on your own. I mean, I think if you're always on your own and you build it up, it's one thing. But I just had the rug pulled out from under me, and I'm the one who did it.

Don't you hate that? Why did I do that?

And I also knew that he was incredibly loving about the way he let me go through that process. It was really important for me to figure it out. So, I learned a lot about myself, and I learned a lot about him. I mean, everything's going along swimmingly, you don't really learn that much about each other. It's in times of stress that you find out who the other person really is.

What do you think the biggest thing is that you learned about yourself?

Not so good on my own. I think that it was— I love to have things to do that I love to do. And I'd gone from being unbelievably busy with an enormous number of friends to having nothing to do and no personal life. That was a little crazy. That was too much.

So, how did you and Jeffrey come back together? I realize you never truly— you separated physically, but stayed connected. Yeah, there was no—

there were no documents. ...involved. And we just talked. And we worked out that he felt that he couldn't travel as much as he could because he was married. And I felt like I was responsible for dinner because we were married. And we realized none of those were true.

And there's one other really important takeaway from this, which is it doesn't have to make sense to anybody else.

Yeah.

It only has to make sense to you.

What a great comment. Yeah.

Right?

Right. All of it has to just work for you. It doesn't matter what other people think. It doesn't have to look like anybody else's relationship.

Absolutely. You know, you write about this quote. This is on page 185 of Be Ready When the Luck Happens. And it's a quote attributed to George Lucas. We're all living in cages with the door wide open. That was me until I realized I had the power and the responsibility to set myself free. To step out of the cage of whatever I'd experienced in the past, to think for myself, and to believe in my choices.

Isn't that the best quote?

Yes.

We're all living in cages with the door wide open. It's so— I just thought that was such a great visual.

It really is. But it's hard to see when you keep talking about the cage that you're in. And talk to me about What about realizing that you have power and the responsibility to set yourself free?

Well, I think we all have the power, whether we're willing to exercise it. It's really like any kind of exercise. You try it a little bit and you go, oh, that was— I can push back. If you're offered a job and you say, I really want twice as much money, and you go, whoa, that worked. I think you have to just learn to exercise your And just say, this is what I want. And be willing for somebody to say, you're not going to get it. But ask anyway.

Yes. And then ask somebody else.

And then ask somebody else. Or here's a better idea. Go do it yourself.

Go do it yourself. Why I always say to my daughters, they're like, I don't think— I don't know if I'll ever— And I was like, do you know how many idiots out there are making more money than most of us? Like, I think if they can figure it out, so can you. You just have to decide that you're gonna figure it out. That's it. You know, if somebody wants to start a new business, they're listening to you, and it's stirring something, what would you say is the best thing to do?

Don't think about being scared. Just think about being excited. And then just go forward. And just figure out what you love to do and think about how you can make a business out of it. out of it. How you can take all of the things you're good at, and the things that excite you, and figure out some way that you can make a living doing it. This is what I want to do. And if somebody wants to try and stop me, knock yourself out. It's not going to happen.

You have said, I hope when people remember me, they say, she had a very good time.

I hope they do. I think they will.

You think they will?

Well, I would say that

about you too.

I've had a very— I've had a

A really hard time for some of it.

But that's part of the process. But I think, A, it makes you appreciate the good times more. But also, B, you have to go through that. The times when you're changing are really hard 'cause you don't know what are you changing to. It's like an abyss.

Yeah.

You absolutely have no idea where you're going. And it's a fog, and there isn't a clear picture. And you're just hunting for the thing that you want to do. And you're thinking, maybe the thing that I just left was the best thing I'm going to do. But you just keep moving forward.

I'm curious to ask you, what's your favorite recipe?

My favorite recipe?

Yeah, do you have a favorite recipe?

French apple tart.

French apple tart? How come it's— is it— did you develop it when you were in Paris?

It was— no, it was given to me by Lee Bailey, who was a wonderful cookbook writer. And it's the thinnest, thinnest, thinnest crispy crust, like a buttery crust, and very thin sliced apples with butter and sugar into the oven. And it is, to me, just the essence of apples and sweetness. It's a very simple recipe, and it's— I just think it's just gorgeous.

Wow. I'm gonna have to—

Are you surprised?

I was a little surprised.

What were you thinking it would be?

I don't know, because you have so many recipes. I mean, I, I don't know what I thought it would be, actually.

I have one menu that I have— if I'm meeting somebody new, and they're coming for dinner, I have one menu that I know I can nail every single time. And it's actually in Barefoot Contessa Parties. And it's rack of lamb with a mustard and balsamic glaze, and orzo with roasted vegetables. And if I can serve a French apple tart at the end, it's like the perfect simple dinner. And it's— I don't know why, it just feels warm and welcoming and absolutely delicious every time.

You know, when I was on tour, at the very end, I do this exercise, you know, with 9,000 people in one of the arenas where everybody writes down the wild card chapter that if they could do anything, nobody would judge you. could make all the money that you wanted, or you didn't even need to worry about making money, what is the first thing you would do? You don't even need to explain it. And the top 2 things that people said, one was, write a book. The second was, I would open a bakery.

Really?

Yes.

Isn't that interesting?

Yes. That people are really drawn to the experience of being at a beautiful bakery. You talked about how fun it is, and there's a community there, and it smells and you feel like you're doing something for yourself. And it becomes either a very special moment if you're visiting a cool town as a tourist, or it becomes part of your routine.

Well, a bakery also is like the heartbeat of a town.

Yes.

So, it really feels good. I had a very good friend of mine who was one of the founders of Burton Snowboards, and she said she always wanted to have a specialty food store. She was literally 8 months pregnant when she said this to me. And I said to her, first, work in the bakery before you decide to open a specialty food store. And so, she came to Easton, This was 30 years ago. And she worked at Barefoot Contessa in the bakery. She spent the whole summer there, and she loved it. And she opened a specialty food store in Stowe, Vermont, that was incredibly successful.

Wow.

So half of the people that you put in the bakery would go, have your experience. Yeah, I'm outta here. And the other half would have Donna Carpenter's experience.

So I guess that's great advice. If you want to open a bakery, go work in one first.

Go work in one first.

And that's kind of the advice for everything. If you're interested in something, jump in the pond and splash around, and you're gonna figure it out. Ina, if the person listening takes one thing away from this conversation, what do you think the most important thing you want to say is?

Do what you love. If you love it, you'll be really good at it.

What are your parting words?

We only have one trip around this merry-go-round. And if you're not having fun, what in the world is the point?

It's true.

It's true. What's the point?

What's the point? Like, you're not here to suffer and to be stuck and miserable and jealous. Like, there's something really cool that you could do if you allow yourself to do it. Well, thank you. Thank you for inspiring us.

Thank you for inspiring us always.

You're welcome. I think you are You are such an incredible human being.

Thank you, ma'am.

And your example has made a huge difference in my life. And it's made a huge difference in my life because one of my favorite things in the world is cooking at home and gathering with people that I love. And you don't know this, but you are often there because I'm cracking open my vinegar-stained cookbooks.

Thank you. And I think one of the things that's really important to remember for cooking is make something really simple, because the simpler it is, you're gonna do it. And it's really about having people around the table together and create a community for yourself. And I think we really need to have— feel that we're— our lives matter to others. And if you create a group of friends and family and people that matter to you, you'll be good to go.

What are you actually excited about that you're, that you're doing right now?

Oh, I just started a podcast.

You did?

I did.

Oh my God. I love that. I

started it yesterday, actually.

What? You're kidding. Tell

Well, it's called Happy Hour. And it's somebody comes and has a cocktail with me, and we sit and talk for an hour.

Oh, that's fantastic.

Actually, I have one other thing. Can I tell you about it?

Yes, please! Tell me. What are you doing? I have a new book coming out. Oh my God, gimme this. Oh!

And what I found is I kept making simpler and simpler recipes because I wanted to cook for friends, but it, you know, it takes time. Each recipe has something in it that makes it easier. It's either no cooking at all,

Okay.

As long as you don't consider toasting bread cooking.

Wow.

There's a recipe for dessert that I just love, which is a raspberry cheesecake. And we've all made cheesecake, and you're standing at the oven door going, is it done? Is it not done? Is it gonna fall? I just said, go to a bakery and buy a really good cheesecake, bring it home, make a fresh raspberry sauce with fresh raspberries, and pour it on top. Now you've made it your own. And you've got something absolutely delicious.

You know what I love about you?

What?

You literally created a cookbook that told us to go buy a cheesecake and then just make the sauce at home. I see, like, 55 things I am going to make. Well, Ina Garten, thank you so much.

Thank you, Mel.

You're amazing, and I—

So great to be here.

Thank you. And thank you. Thank you for making time and spending it with the two of us. I know you loved every second of this, and we loved being with you. And in case no one else tells you, as your friend, I wanted to be sure to remind you that I love you, and I'm so proud of you. And I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And so listen to Ina. Don't be standing there at the edge of the pond talking yourself out of it. Jump in, splash around. And if you ever feel stuck trying to figure it out, just do both. Alrighty. I'll see you in the very next episode. I'll welcome you in the moment you hit play. You've just aligned your truest intention and your self-expression with something that you feel called to do. Is that your phone?

Oh, is that mine?

Somebody's texting you saying you're doing great. And we're not live, so who cares?

Okay.

You know?

This is great.

Right?

Yeah. That couldn't have been 2 hours.

Uh, I think it was an hour and a half.

That's amazing. That was the fastest hour and a half I ever spent.

Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know, what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician. physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.

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