Transcript of #2560 - David Grusch New

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All right, bro. David, what's up?

Thanks for having me back on.

My pleasure. Yeah, well, you're the one that's closest to the flame, so tell me what's going on.

Oh, I know, right? So, uh, living the nightmare is what I tell my friends, so it's definitely Been a tough several years or so. And, you know, last time we were on, just testified in front of Congress, and the UAP Disclosure Act of '23 was, you know, possibly getting passed. It failed to get passed. And then I, based on, you know, things I know about the Biden administration, things I heard from the White House, I decided to kind of lay low for a year. So '24, I didn't do too much. And then— Representative Burleson had this crazy idea to hire me as a professional staff member for Congress working for him. Turns out, I guess I was like the first guy that ever testified in front of Congress as a whistleblower and then being subsequently hired by Congress. I was the first guy to ever do that, which is very interesting and very cool. And I do thank Burleson for, you know, his leadership on that. And so I did that for about a year and a half. Just finished up actually. I was like, you know what, I'm staying longer than I thought. You know, I'm gonna wait until Labor Day, see where things are.

I worked pretty hard over summer recess in August and decided to, you know, wind down some of my activities 'cause I accomplished a lot of my objectives. We can get into that obviously. And then kind of move into, I'll call it my next phase of operations, which includes a little break for me. It's been very tiring. I've been kind of going full throttle for the last couple of years and whatnot. And so we're really at a— I think a poignant moment in US history with what Trump's done and the things you've seen in the media and whatnot. And there's a lot of other stuff happening behind the scenes because a lot of my work has been private, behind the scenes, working for Congress, specifically Representative Burleson.

So let me ask you the environment. So are there some people in Congress that are interested in disclosure of this stuff and pursue you and want to find out information and want you to tell them what's going on? And then are there other people that are resisting this?

Yeah, I think there's a big bifurcation of the nonbelievers and then kind of the UAP caucus, although you see more and more people kind of signing on to the cause. Like I did a presser back in June in front of the Capitol with members, and we even had Brigadier General retired Representative Scott Perry there, who was on the House Intelligence Committee. from my home state of PA. And it was good to see other members, you know, start showing that they support the cause. But it has been challenging behind the scenes. And I had many SCIF classified meetings with the members kind of going over the topological history of this topic and some of the deeper, darker kind of, you know, criminal stuff I bumped into and how I worked with DOJ to kind of highlight some of that stuff. And that's really—

What kind of criminal stuff?

Yeah, so when I was looking into this, and I have to be very respectful of my participation in this because it's an ongoing thing with DOJ, I was following the money, bumping into other activities, very much like— actually, it's sort of related. If you saw in the news that David Rush, very similar name to me, it's kind of freaky, but he was arrested with $40 million of gold bars. He was a CIA officer. He made a fake Continuity of Government Special Access Program. And, you know, he went under the radar basically doing his own thing and getting gold and Rolexes and stuff. And the FBI raided his house back in May. True story. Yeah, the guy has—

Is that gold bars?

Yes, he had $40 million of gold bars.

Where'd he get the gold bars?

From the agency.

They have them laying around?

Yeah, I can't get into all the details of why the government—

Wait a minute, hold on. The government has gold bars?

Yeah.

And this guy just snatched them?

Yeah, he made— I don't know all the details, but he made a fake continuity of government special access program that nobody was briefed into. He, like, you know, papered it, and nobody at the CIA questioned what he was doing. And he was like, well, I need, you know, $40 million in gold bars because of this special continuity of government activity.

Wait a minute, wait a minute. So that's how they fund some things? In gold bars?

Yes. It's almost like in Afghanistan when I was over there, I'd have guys with briefcases full of $100,000 in cash. 'Cause you have to pay for things, right?

Right.

So imagine—

But that kind of makes more sense to me than lugging around gold.

Yeah.

What does like $40 million in gold bars look like?

I saw the seizure photos. It's a lot. I mean, it's pretty heavy. Let me see. Can I see what that looks like?

It's approximately 303 gold bars that each weigh approximately 1 kilogram apiece. Yo, that's a lot of weight.

Yeah, I was looking for a picture.

There's only like AI photos of it.

Yeah. At least that I could find.

So a kilogram is 1 point— 2.£2?

Yeah, 2.28 or something. That's crazy.

He's got £600 of gold?

Yeah.

Where the fuck do you put these? He just had it in his house?

He did have it in his house.

Just laying around?

A bunch of Rolexes and all that.

Oh, so he was just going crazy. Yeah.

Well, who knows what he was really going to use the gold for, but that's an open-ended thing. And he was arrested.

Was he pretending that he was using it for some disclosure-type deal, or did it have anything to do with UAPs?

Uh, not that I'm aware of, but that same ecosystem I bumped into. So his fabricated program was a continuity government program. So that's like, you know, if something bad happens, people are going to a hideout site, you know, sanitized location.

Right.

And so what I bumped into, unfortunately, was like the deep underbelly of the federal government. We can get into it. It's a lot of stuff I've never talked about because it's just very terrifying. And I, you know, I've been through a lot of crazy shit. And I ended up bumping into a criminal enterprise run out of a particular agency. And it was basically getting money through certain criminal endeavors, the most unspeakable type of criminal endeavors, under the COVID of certain national security programs. That's about as—

When you say certain unspeakable, you mean like, what do you mean, like trafficking?

Yeah.

Like child trafficking? So the government was involved in child trafficking for money.

Officers of the government. That's true. Yeah, it's fucked up. I briefed members in a classified setting all the details. And I'm highlighting that because this is how serious this issue is, is there's an ecosystem and there's a lot of good people around these programs in terms of the UAP side. UAP side programs.

Yeah.

And I know a lot of them. They're friends of mine. They're patriotic people doing their duty. But there is like a small little caste system of characters characters that are part of this larger ecosystem of no holds barred. We're going to do what we want and we're going to do whatever kind of criminal activity to get washed money for our cutouts. So a good example, of course, would be Iran-Contra, right?

Mm-hmm.

Which is very famous, '86. And the CIA was engaged in those kind of activities. This has all been exposed all over north and all that to fund the Contras, weapons purchases, procurement, etc. And a lot of that seemed to possibly be drug trafficking. The government never confirmed that, but you look at Barry Seal and his statements in the '80s and '90s, and it's likely that that probably occurred, you know.

Yeah, it was all through Freeway Ricky Ross.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, Ricky's been on the podcast multiple times.

That's right, that's right.

Yeah, he was on— was it like 2 years ago, a year and a half ago, last time he was on? It's funny because he's out now, became an attorney while he was in jail, found out— learned to read first, okay? Couldn't read. Became an attorney in jail, found out that they tried him, you know, that triple jeopardy, 3 strikes thing?

Yeah.

They tried him incorrectly. They used that incorrectly because it's supposed to be 3 different times you were arrested instead of like 3 crimes that were attached to one arrest. So he gets out of jail. Now he sells legal weed.

All right.

All right.

Lovely guy. Yeah.

But he's a great guy. But he had no idea that he was selling cocaine to fund the Contras versus the Sandinistas.

Interesting.

He had no idea.

Yeah.

He thought that he was just a slick character that just knew what he was doing and was, you know, he didn't realize that the CIA was literally allowing him to do it. Now, we've also had Michael Rupert on the podcast. Do you know who he is?

No.

Michael Rupert was the LA narcotics officer that on, I believe it was on C-SPAN, He went on C-SPAN during a hearing, and he exposed the entire organization selling drugs in South Central Los Angeles because he was involved in it. He was involved in, like, busting people that were doing it, and then they told him he has to leave it alone because it was the CIA.

Yeah.

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And so when I bumped into that stuff, you know, I immediately worked at the Department of Justice.

That's one level, but like child trafficking is another level.

I know, man. It's, it's, it's really fucked up. And, and there's a lot of details that are— I have a lot more questions than answers. And I, you know, I worked with DOJ and, you know, from what I understand, I got a gold star in a brief to Kash Patel about it last year. I wasn't in the briefing, but I, you know, I, I was told I got kudos, but It was very disturbing. And so, like, obviously, a lot of these programs are legal in the sense that there's— in terms of UAP stuff, there's, you know, classified executive orders back in the day that covers them, and they're upstanding citizens. And we could litigate, like, you know, Congress wasn't necessarily brought into the fold enough from an oversight perspective, et cetera. But, you know, the core of the program, does have a legal beginning, but when you don't have oversight, unfortunately, certain small pockets of people start doing shit that they shouldn't have. Right, that's the problem. And unfortunately, I got deeply ensnared in that. There was a very small group of people that pushed me over the edge, and I had to do what I gotta do to protect myself.

And I never wanted to be a whistleblower. I was a deeply entrenched 15-year intel officer, military officer in the Air Force. working some of the country's most sensitive issues, you know, started going to the White House to brief the National Security Council in my mid-20s on space issues back during the Obama administration. And, and in 2019, when I joined the UAP Task Force, and I was tasked to investigate this, I was like, sure, I'll look into it. You know, the Special Access Program or black program community has a lot of dysfunction, and, and maybe some stuff wasn't reported, you know, you know, correctly. And, and I didn't know really what I was gonna find. But if there was a US program, you know, I'd figure it out. I'd probably get cleared to it and we'd be fine. We'd have like a mafia meeting and, you know, that, and I know why it was protected the way it is and whatnot. But unfortunately, about a year and a half, about October 2020 is when kind of my life changed. And particular individuals, instead of coming to me, who knew me, by the way, personally, I know them personally, Mm-hmm.

Now, Dave, you're bumping into something. I'm gonna defensively brief you. This is what it is, or hey, I'm gonna slide an NDA, sign this, and I'll read you in. And my colleagues and I joked about that, like, we're bumping into shit. Eventually, somebody's gonna knock on my door in my office and be like, hey, I need to talk to you. And unfortunately, that never happens. It's really tragic, 'cause that would have been an easier way, but— I immediately got administratively nuked in October 2020. And basically, they went after everybody around me. My boss at the National Reconnaissance Office, as, you know, Major Grusch, the Air Force officer in the reserves, got walked out of NRO headquarters in Chantilly, Virginia, under fabricated personal conduct things. And they went after, you know, my chief of staff who worked for me at NGA when I was a 15. and coworkers, people they thought were my enablers, right? And I thought, okay, I could fight this. They're bringing up like my mental health stuff, which we've talked about before, Afghanistan PTSD. I'm like, I reported it. I was cleared of, you know, no problems, kept my top secret clearance, and I still have my top secret clearance.

But it got very, very, scary in early 2022. And I've avoided talking about this for a long time. And I've mentioned in my hearing in 2023, you know, I was, you know, I'm here in fear for my life, et cetera. Well, you know, I'm not talking about the criminal stuff I found, stuff that's happened in my personal life and stuff. And so back in early 2022, everything's fine. started noticing some suspicious activity near where I live, and I didn't think much of it. I thought it was kind of strange, and I don't want to quite go into all the details, but basically later one particular day, I was sent a message that they can touch me and my wife, and they know where we are.

And what do you think this was particular— was this because of the child trafficking stuff? Was this because of some other illegal activity with no oversight?

You know, in private environments, I was asked what, what red line, what tripwire did I cross? To this day, I don't know specifically. I suspect based on them, what turns out they were monitoring my classified computer at work, my recent— my investigation notes that I would keep encrypted on there. I think they were very worried that I figured out a lot of things. And I still don't know for sure, though, like in it. And there's a lot of other things, too. I guess I'm kind of jumping around because in early 2021, you know, certain people that were helping me and I was talking to started to experience Havana Syndrome symptoms, you know, anomalous health incidents. And I know a lot about that. That's another kind of ecosystem I was an expert in, in the government. And of course, my first thing is like, huh, Did you piss off the Russians or Chinese or some other kind of foreign intelligence service? Or, 'cause you don't think domestic. And I'm like, what did you do in your career? Were you on covert action programs? Did you like, you know, bomb some, you know, adversary's building and they're pissed off at you and they hold a grudge?

And so I noticed that I wasn't gonna equate that to the topic. And, but I was very nervous about that 'cause people I know, were starting to experience those symptoms, specifically microwave directed energy, most likely, just based on certain tradecraft they were doing to detect it, which I won't get into the details of that. And then there's their symptomology, so to speak. And so that was frightening. And in that 2021 timeframe, I was sitting at home. I was getting investigated by 3 agencies. And I really didn't know what was going on. A lot of my colleagues were kind of continuing on that investigation on my behalf. And eventually, in late 2021, NGA hired me as a 15 off the street, kind of came back into government full-time. I was hoping that agency would protect me against, you know, the CIA and the NRO and certain elements of the DOD that were going after me because of these couple antagonists that were trying to you know, basically pushed me over the edge administratively. But what— I crossed the Rubicon in early 2022 when I was sent a message, and it was the same day I was sent a message, other people got that message too.

So it was coordinated geographically. And of course, you know, I reported that to federal law enforcement, counterintelligence element. And at the time, I'm like, well, you know, there was one adversarial intelligence agency that had an interest in me several years ago. And I had a little incident that was actually kind of funny. So I wasn't sure if it was like the US government or even if it was related to my investigation. And then several, several weeks later, and I was— I get chills talking about this because it's kind of upsetting. I was in DC for a conference on UAP, actually, for my, for my agency, NGA, at the time. And I got summoned to an off-books Senate Intel Committee— we'll call it meeting— in their, you know, their SCIF, right? Their vault where you can talk classified information. And certain individuals were there known to me, great credentials, people I've known for a while in my line of work. And so was, you know, a dozen, dozen and a half senior staff for, you know, Marco Rubio, Mark Warner, you know, et cetera, right? And in that meeting, we talked about the legacy program, the history, many hours and I'm a fly on the wall.

Like this is really for Senate staff. I'm just kind of sitting in the back and they turned to staff and they pointed at me and they're like, oh, by the way, these couple individuals, and they named the individuals. I know who they are. They wanted to kill you and I know Lou Elizondo talked about it.

But why?

I do not know that for sure. I think— well, so— hmm. Be careful what I say. There are certain presidential findings that allow certain things to protect critical things in the government. And my assessment is I was getting so close to exposing it because I was sort of preparing my Inspector General's report to the IG that I must have crossed some sort of Rubicon. I still would like to know, and I hope these people are, you know, brought to justice. And that's, you know, my wish and dream. And hopefully Department of Justice does what's needed. But—

There's an investigation ongoing right now?

Yes, on that. And that's all I'll say. defensively not to interfere with that.

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Okay. Yeah.

How much of this do you think has to do with actual UAP disclosure and how much of it has to do with The lack of oversight that allowed people to do illegal activities.

I think some problem children decided to abuse some standing options to protect, you know, critical infrastructure in the United States, which, you know, for example, that would be like an Air Force flight line, an ICBM silo, other activities, and they decided I was some sort of threat. And it's so disgusting because I, you know, like I said, I was a field-grade officer in the Air Force. I was a, you know, GS-15 at CIA, colonel equivalent civilian. And I'm sitting there in Senate chambers and I'm hearing this. And I won't get into all the details. I know a lot. I heard like, you know, all the details on that. And I don't want to like burn my sources. And I just remember how upset the Senate staff was. And to the point where you know, a particular staffer, um, who's very senior went to his office and got some whiskey. And, you know, all of them started drinking in the skiff because it's like everybody was afraid. Like, are they serious? They're like, they literally were thinking about killing fucking Dave. And like, and, and I found out that there was a kibosh to that. That's a longer story for someday if I could ever, you know, discuss the whole, the whole history.

And so it was considered, but then it was kiboshed.

Yes, thank God. And I know how it was stopped. And I owe some people a debt of gratitude, literally. And this was just a few weeks after, you know, I was sent a message. And even after the meeting, we were finding stuff and other people were finding stuff to let people know that they're being tracked. And I know this sounds like so fucking crazy and all that. But well, so that happened.

Someone having $40 million in gold hanging out their house and a bunch of Rolexes.

Yeah. Never did I think, you know, I'm a very patriotic guy. I love serving America. You know, it hurts me every day not having the uniform anymore. And knowing that was the level that they thought about going to because of this interesting interpretation of certain standing options. And I— and eventually in this disclosure process, a lot of that will come out. I just have to be careful what I say now until, you know, the president figures out how to, you know, release some of this history, unfortunately.

So. Understood.

Yeah.

So one of the things that we talked about before— so you were scheduled for another podcast a while back, but flights got canceled.

Oh, yeah.

And we moved it today. But you were saying that it's actually fortuitous that it was rescheduled.

Yeah, a lot of things are happening. I see the administration getting really, really serious on this and I think people don't appreciate the courage that Trump is showing right now ordering the government to release everything we know about this topic. It will be—

Courage, how so? Like you think he is in danger for releasing this information?

No, not necessarily but it's deontological shock and the history coming out and sort of the outrage. I mean I think it will be Uniting sort of like in post-9/11 America after the towers fell, right? You have the fear of dirty bombs and other terrorist attacks, but you also have this like uniting panacea that kind of brings people together.

You think that is equivalent to what's happening right now?

It will be.

What is going to happen?

So I believe before Trump's term ends that it's all going to come out.

What does that mean?

Everything I've testified about, you know, the fact that, you know, we've been studying this for a while. We've recovered material, a.k.a. intact, semi-intact craft. We've, you know, recovered this anomalous intelligence piloting the craft. And, you know, we are reverse engineering that. And obviously, there's other parts to that. It's a very complicated ecosystem. A lot of people who are just, release it all, show us Indiana Jones warehouse tour. Don't appreciate the care that we're going to have to proceed with, because this is not a static ecosystem. This isn't just like archaeology where you're digging up stuff. There is— you are dealing with, you know, third parties, both human, you know, adversarial countries, et cetera. They have their own program. And then you have, you know, our— this anomalous intelligence, our visitors, NHI, whatever you want to call them, ultraterrestrial. depending on which taxonomy in the tree that you want to ascribe some of this origin to. And of course, you know, the national security-related technology that has been derived. We've derived great stuff to defend America. I've had exposure on that. And, you know, I'm very—

We've derived it through back engineering.

Yeah.

100%?

Yes. Well, some of it, it was inspiration. It wasn't a one-to-one, like we unlocked the iPhone. It was like, huh, that's an interesting material. Look at that frequency selective surface property. You know what? We could use that for an aerospace application or whatever. And so a lot of it was garnered via inspiration, not one-to-one. Yeah, in some cases I suppose we did, but like, that's been most of it. Yeah.

So what's the holdup in terms of Disclosure.

I necessarily can't read the president's mind. There's certainly a multilateral kind of diplomatic issue. I mean, so we're in this issue now where once we cross the Rubicon, then we affect allies and adversaries. You know, our adversaries have programs. What are they going to tell their citizenry? You have possible theological distress, Vatican, et cetera. And I'm a Catholic and I certainly appreciate the Vatican's long study on this subject, and they've just stayed quiet on what they know. And so it's— there's a lot of collateral effects if you're not careful with certain stuff. You can trigger a response, and there is great fear that— I don't necessarily believe in this, but there has been assessments in the past that revealing certain things may trigger a response. From a third party.

Trigger a response from them, from these entities.

Possibly, yes. And that is a— that has been written up. Government think tanks wrote that up in reports to previous presidents.

So the theory is that we disclose, people are now aware of it all over the globe, and they decide to show themselves?

Yeah. I mean, I think there's a real fear of like a Ghostbusters moment, I'll say.

Oh boy.

You know, and it's one of those things where I'm trying to walk the line and be as diplomatic as possible and also trying to prepare the populace at the same time because clearly the government hasn't right now. And I mean, Trump wants it out for sure. His team needs to be astute enough to know what to ask for, you know, massage the deep state and get that information because we just saw Tim Burchett on Benny Johnson's podcast talk about Stephen Miller called him and was like, hey, I'm getting blocked, like physically blocked from access to a lot of this stuff. And, you know, that's very concerning. I would say Stephen Miller is an alpha dog. He's a pit bull. And as a fellow alpha, I do appreciate his—

That's a silly thing to say.

Yeah.

You know that, right?

What?

A fellow alpha.

Fellow alpha.

Opens yourself up to like tremendous amounts of ridicule.

Yeah, I know. I know. I mean, I mean, Nobody's perfect, and I know everybody has their faults, but I do appreciate the fervency he is attacking the issue behind the scenes. And I just, I think he needs guided the right way and informed and kind of how, how to cut this deal.

You know, I met him very briefly at the UFC event at the White House, and he told me that it's going to come out. I'm like, okay, that's good.

Well, there you go.

It was really quick.

Yeah.

It's like he's like, I'm just— I know you're interested in this. This is literally all we talked about. the UFO thing is going to come out.

Yeah.

Like, okay, when? When's that coming out? Let's go.

Exactly. And Trump understands the subject pretty good. And, you know, he's in the know and he understands some of the implications. So like I said, he has a lot of courage because this is likely going to change society in a big way. I can't necessarily— I'm not like a social anthropologist or a psychiatrist. Like, I can't necessarily predict in what specific ways It might reduce, you know, feudal nation-state peer competition and other things. But it is going to change and I think when people look back at this interview, it's going to be very haunting because I think in short order, you know, before Trump leaves office, we're going to be in a new paradigm. And I'm normally a very pessimistic, cynical person. A lot of my friends know that. But I have great confidence that the president is doing the right thing and I feel there's eventually going to— the people that are in charge of this are going to have to comply with the president's order. But there's a right way of doing this, I think. And I, like I said, I'm not some sycophant for the deep state. I'm a whistleblower, obviously. And I have philosophical differences about how this was kept and how they could possibly reveal stuff.

But I am surprisingly confident, which is kind of weird for me to say, because I just see the tea leaves. I know Miller's serious. There's other people in government serious. I mean, even see Aaron Lucas, the PDDNI, the Deputy Director of National Intelligence, you know, signed these big NDA waivers that includes like any kind of waiver of not even telling the president, sorry, you have to tell us kind of thing. And so you're seeing kind of the chessboard being set. I know everybody's not happy with the tranches coming out with the low-hanging fruit videos and recordings and stuff. And Representative Burleson and I, before I left his office recently, got a 1952 recording that was still classified from Blue Book talking about the seriousness of this issue and all the crazy shit that they're seeing near nuclear sites and test ranges, which is interesting because in that video that's been declassified, it mentions the very sites that in modern day have that same anomalous activity to include stuff in the Southwest. I can't say where. It's in the ecosystem in the open source, but the— The executive branch hasn't acknowledged what specific test and training range.

They're seeing crazy orbs that they can't explain. This accosts helicopters and all that.

So is Trump experiencing resistance in your opinion?

Yes, and I don't know all the details, but clearly Miller has. And a lot of it is, I think, and I can't read the mind of the deep state, but as a former deep stater, I would say that there's always been this kind of disdain for political appointees and they don't— and members of Congress. Like they don't have the reverence on this issue. They're going to fuck it up. They're going to just say something that they shouldn't have about a classified program and that's why some classified programs are kept from Congress. It's called waived programs and the only presidents that were really, really involved were the ones like H.W. Bush, right? He was CIA director. He was fully briefed on this issue. A lot of that lore is true about H.W. Bush. Cheney, like I have talked about, fully in this. He was the mob boss for many years. He was kind of the head of this activity. And so I think there is some testing of the waters right now. It is kind of like cat's paw dynamic, like, you know, we will give you a little bit of this, a little bit of that, and they are seeing how the administration is going to potentially roll this out.

And obviously, if the White House wants my opinion, I am available, but I do trust the president's team. hopefully we'll be able to handle this. And because if Trump doesn't enforce his order and see this through, I don't think any other president is going to be able to. I mean, I mean, regardless of Democrat, left, right, whatever, like if he follows through on this, he's going to be the GOAT. He's going to be a legend. And, you know, all the other things people have problems with in his presidency, Iran, whatever, I think this will wipe those out. And this is like really important. for his legacy to initiate the process before the '28 election. Then there's like a hot handoff to the next administration. And, you know, if Trump's a political animal, he could easily line up a Republican team on the '28 ticket to basically, you know, be his continuity on this too. I think that'd be very smart. And—

So this is going to take a long time to release. Is that how you're projecting this?

That was always the plan back in the day. Just because it's like an anesthetization and climatization process. It's like, you know, okay, we're gonna focus on this topic. Everybody's— this is gonna get normalized, the temperature's gonna cool, and then we're gonna bring in this shocking thing.

So there's a schedule, like in terms of like the psychological impact on the populace?

There was in the past in terms of certain government think tanks wrote classified assessments for previous presidents on this. I don't know what the current plan is. I'm just— I'm currently literally a private citizen right now.

Right.

But if they're going to do what they did in the past, it is— and the slow rollout has its pluses and minuses. Like I would say, due to human factors, risks of adversarial countries getting ahead of us, other whistleblowers, whatever, you probably have to roll this out in at least like 12 months and whatnot. But we're in a precarious time if the administration doesn't start because China and Russia could take advantage of this moment now, our weakness. You know, China has their famous Belt and Road Initiative. China has admitted publicly that they have a UAP task force. Obviously, they have more than that behind the scenes. And they actually announced that when the DOD UAP task force was announced, you can find a news article from June 2020 in the South China Morning Post, where they talk about they're analyzing these encounters, they're using AI, etc.

Do you feel that China has, or do you know if China has these crashed vehicles as well?

There's parallel programs.

There's parallel programs. Now, one of the things that Diana Pasulka said when— and Gary Nolan refers to in the same way as well— they refer to them as donations.

Yeah, that's what's really interesting is I am aware of certain historical retrievals where they were like perfectly landed. And it wasn't like a crash. And what is— what's going on there? I'm sure we've done a deep assessment. I never had access to that kind of information. I'm sure that we understand why that happened at some level. But that is true that that's actually happened.

So the theory is that they want us to find these things so that we can examine the technology and perhaps work from it, like engineer it, or like you were saying before, gain inspiration to try new—

Yeah. Part of it's like throwing the gorilla a banana, see if it can peel it. But also, the more skeptical intel officer in me is like, well, is this a Trojan horse? Do you want us to figure things out and then get addicted to a certain type of technology? And then that creates a control loop where they start handling us, whether we need raw resources to maintain a certain technology.

They, as in this intelligence, whatever this is, this non-human intelligence. Right. So if it is a donation, do you feel like this donation is evenly distributed amongst world powers?

You know, I do not know the statistical distribution. That's very interesting. I never understood the total number of retrievals in other countries participated in.

Well, there's supposed to be quite a few in the United States.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's for sure. I don't know the answer to that actually. There's a statistical analysis that will come out in this process.

Do you think there's any shared information between these governments? Do you think they communicate?

There is a gentleman's agreement. The top layer of it I can talk about. And I've talked about it previously, so it's not anything super new. If you look at the Accident Measures Agreement of 1971, which is the short title of this god-awfully long-titled treaty. that was signed in September 1971, you'll see Article 3 of the treaty talks about UAP. And hey, if you see any unidentified objects around your nuclear or critical comms facilities, please call us, bro. And that was between the USSR and America. And then in 2013, the classified annex of that treaty got declassified. You can find it online at George Washington University National Security Archives. But it gives the nuke flash, like the red line, like code to say it was like Atom 222, Atom 333, and that's all declassified. And he would send that to the Kremlin like, hey, we see fucking weird shit around Plesetsk. It's not us, it's not a false flag, and vice versa. And so there was a red line comms for UAP activity between Russia and the US. And of course, Russia and the US during the Cold War had a mutual notification treaty for space launch vehicle and ICBM launches, et cetera.

Weirdly enough, we've never had that with China. Even to this day, we don't have a mutual— this is crazy. We don't even have a mutual notification. If they're gonna do like a submarine-launched ballistic missile test out of, you know, off their coast, they're not obligated by treaty to tell us. So, and sometimes they don't with certain national security activities. And so Northern Command, NORAD, Missile Warning Center, other— other places, NSA DEFSMAC in Laurel, Maryland, have to be on their A-game to like make sure it was like a test because the Chinese aren't obligated to tell us. And I— a crazy story in that regard. The Indians did something like that to us. I was on duty in the NRO operations center. And by the way, I got this clear through security. So, you know, NRO, don't shank me. basically, there was an unexpected Indian missile test that hit one of their satellites in 2019. I think it was like March of 2019.

Hit one of our satellites?

Oh, no, not our. One of their defunct weather satellites. Their own satellites? Yeah, their own defunct weather satellite.

And— On purpose or an accident?

On purpose.

And— They shot down one of their own satellites.

Yeah. And they didn't tell us. I remember in my office, I had like all these different phones. I'm like calling the embassy, all this. I'm What the fuck? You know, and 'cause we were worried at the NRO about the debris, 'cause we fly space, you know, spy satellites. That's the mission of the National Reconnaissance Office. And I was the backup director of intelligence as a reservist at the operations center where I was, you know, also handling the PDB for the director. And I, you know, led the director's briefing team. And, you know, I'm like going to the orbital analysts on the watch floor with all the crazy screens, like calculate the debris field, you know, let me know if we have to maneuver something and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, running up to the director's office in my uniform, you know, out of breath. I'm like, holy shit, you know? And it was kind of a big deal. And that's publicly, you know, you can Google that now. And I remember when that went down, it was pretty crazy. So—

That sounds completely insane.

Yeah.

So are there other countries besides China, Russia, and us that supposedly have access to these vehicles?

Yeah.

Which other countries? Can you say?

I don't want to get into because that gets into some sensitive stuff.

Right. Um, supposedly this is like one of the best legends, that there's a craft that's so large they couldn't move it, so they had to make a building around it. And supposedly in Korea. I don't know. Oh yeah, you do know. How dare you? But have you heard— you've heard that rumor, I'm sure, online.

I've heard that rumor online.

Yeah. Yeah, you don't know anything about that? Yeah.

We'll let the federal government—

Do you have any personal experience with any of this stuff?

You know, it's funny you ask that. I, as far as I can remember, I have no experience with the phenomenon. Like a lot of, a lot of people in this, I guess, ufology or whatever you want to call it, they have that personal experience. Like, oh yeah, when I was a kid, I saw an orb or whatever. And I have zero. I've seen a couple interesting things in the sky that, you know, could have been satellite passes. I've been an amateur astronomer besides having a physics degree. I've been an amateur astronomer since I was like in middle school, like 12, 13 years old. And I still have never seen anything in my personal life in a stupendous nature. I've never had any kind of spooky woo stuff happen.

Never been visited?

No. And that's why, like, I was open to this. You know, I'm a child of the '80s. Well, I grew up— I was born in the '80s. You know, most of my childhood was in the '90s. And, you know, I watched X-Files and Star Trek: Next Gen. And of course, I'm like, you know, I'm a precocious teen reading like Brief History Time and, you know, Isaac Asimov, and I'm learning about the Drake Equation. I'm like, there's probably life, but who knows? And I'm open to it. And then, you know, when I got into the intelligence community, that's like the first thing I looked up like on the web. I'm like on the computer. I'm like, I go on to a certain database. I'm like typing in Area 51 and, you know, UFO. Like everybody's done that who's gone through intel school, whether they admit it or not. And of course, I see anything or anything. The only thing I bumped into early in my career in like 2009, I remember reading the OSAP, the Defense Intelligence Reference Documents, the DIRDs. And at the time, I had no idea what they were doing. And turns out it was obviously UAP related.

But I was reading, why is the DIA looking into magnetohydrodynamic propulsion and cloaking and all this other stuff? And of course, I find out later what it was. But I had absolutely no personal experience, and even professionally, for most of my career. Now, I found out behind the scenes later, like, oh, you remember that top secret program you're working on, Dave? You were actually looking for UAP, and you didn't know it. I'm like, what? And of course, you know, I find out and I learn about, you know, how they hid all this infrastructure. And they used a lot of conventional national security intelligence collection architecture to basically facilitate this crash retrieval program, which makes sense because they're not going to reinvent the wheel and, you know, totally have a separate infrastructure to use to, like, figure out if stuff crashed, activity, et cetera.

Right.

And, you know, early, I would say about 10 years into my career, I remember some imagery analysts saying, hey, Dave, you know, like, they told us that, airbrush some stuff out of photos and stuff, and it was round. And I'm like, okay, dude, well, maybe that's something you're not cleared to or whatever. And I do remember that. And I had some suspicious recruitment earlier in my career too. I was on some really sensitive stuff that I ended up finding out it was directly adjacent to the program. And I went through this whole, like, smoking man recruitment thing for a year and, you know, was told I was gonna get these kind of bizarre accesses. And I'm like, what are you talking about? And ultimately, I was never recruited. And I kind of just like put— filed that in the back of my brain for years. But like I've said, you know, before, it wasn't until like spring of 2017, I was at the CIA briefing the deputy director staff on a bunch of DOD classified programs. And the chief of a very sensitive office at the agency pulled me aside and was like, Dave, what— What's going on?

What do you know about UFOs? Like, I hear there's like a program at the Pentagon and all that. And I'm like, I don't know. Like, I'm briefed on almost every DOD program at the time, by the way, and hundreds of programs in the intelligence community because I was in a position of very high trust. And I, you know, I'm very patriotic and I'm very humbled that I was in a position like that in my 30s. And I didn't think anything of it until this subject got more popularized. People went public, you know, Tom DeLonge, TTSA, and all that. And then I was professionally interested, but not really working on it in 2018. And then early in '19 is when I got brought on as the NRO rep to the then Navy task force, which became the DOD's, you know, UAP task force. That's kind of my origin story. And so I was always— I've always been curious, but I never saw evidence. And I never had any personal experience with the phenomenon that kind of colors my— judgment on this, I guess.

So— So I'm sure you're aware of Hal Puthoff when he was tasked by the Bush administration along with a bunch of other thinkers to try to come up with pros and cons for disclosure.

Yeah. I knew some other people in that meeting and I verified that meeting took place. And even AARO admitted in their Volume 1 report, which was horrible— that's a long story, painful— that it took place but it was just a hypothetical scenario at a federally funded research and development center in Northern Virginia.

What year was this?

2004. It was like November of 2004. And it's like, but why was it hypothetical if it's not real? Nobody explains that. And obviously, the story is, you know, Steve Hadley, who was the National Security Advisor, sponsored it. You know, I believe Hadley denies it. But, you know, who knows if Steve would You know, tell the truth on that just because of the sensitivity.

So, and so for people that don't know what happened, supposedly they brought in a bunch of different thought leaders and they gave them a pro and a con side, like what would be negatively affected by disclosure, what would be positively affected by disclosure, and attach a numerical value to each.

Correct. They had like a computer system there that like tabulated everything from what I know talking to other attendees.

And virtually every one of them had more negative than positive, and so the decision was made to not disclose.

Well, yeah, and the main decision, if I remember correctly, was the federal contracts fraud. Well, that could be debated in the Supreme Court, but they realized a lot of— so this is another issue of disclosure, besides the ontological shock and people can't handle it and then like—

Misappropriation of funds.

Yeah, and misappropriation of funds and all that. It's, oh, so these set of contractors got sole source contracts and exclusive access to this for internal research and development where they figure out something and then sell it back to the government, etc., for all these decades. Well, what about my mid-level small business and my contractor and blah, blah, blah? And so you're going to— they were afraid that you would see legal challenges going to the Supreme Court in violation of what they call the DFARS, right? The Defense Federal Acquisition Regulations.

Right.

And the government would be liable for who fucking knows, billions of dollars worth of monies that they spent on this to these contractor partners that got in back in the day and like, well, we're not exposing any more people. We're locking it down in what they call a J&A, justification and approval for a sole source contract. This is a reason, national security. Like, we can't expose any more people to this. And of course, That also causes a brain drain and groupthink and actually hurts the defense industrial base. But that was the main reason. It wasn't, oh, you know, upcoming millennials that are turning 18 can't handle it. It was like, yeah, we're kind of culpable in kind of a fucked-up contractual relationship. And that's going to be something that the Trump administration is going to have to deal with. It's like, well, how do I reorient the defense industrial base. I mean, this could trigger a golden era of innovation in America. More people get to play. You overtly can take the basic information that's not sensitive and put it into academia, right? So you have undergraduate, graduate, postdoctoral programs, and you actually create this like more educated workforce to actually benefit national security.

But— and China doesn't have this issue. They're pulling people from— pick a university in China, Nanjing, whatever university, And they're sucking them into these programs. But in America, we don't have that kind of permissive totalitarian environment. So we're not able to—

Well, in China, they probably don't have the issue with misappropriation of funds and lying to Congress.

No. CCP, baby. Do whatever you want.

They do whatever they want. So they don't have to worry about liability. So this is one of the things that came up in that film Age of Disclosure.

That's right.

Is that you're going to have to make some sort of an amnesty program.

Yeah, and I am for that as long as it's like use immunity for specific testimony or—

As long as it doesn't cover like this other shit you're talking about.

Like my— and of course I know who's watching, people clearly that are from this ecosystem. You know, I expect that. Like everybody's been basically good Americans. There's a small cast of characters that have done unspeakable things. I mean, hell, they wanted to fucking kill me. This is It's disturbing. And you wonder why I had to become a whistleblower. I didn't wanna do this shit, but like I was pushed over the edge to do that. You know, I digress, but like besides like blue collar, really fucked up criminal shits, which, you know, once again, there is a judicial justice process in America. You know, we're not gonna do street justice here. We will, you know, take care of that professionally. care of the other criminal stuff I found out professionally. I'm like, look, I'm, you know, and when I was doing that, I mean, I was meeting people, body armor, armed with colleagues of mine that were rolling heavy too. And like, it was a very serious part of my investigation. But yeah, I believe in amnesty, but I think we need to do it like a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which was in post-apartheid South Africa in the '90s where you had— You know, some white farmer comes in and it's like, yeah, I murdered a bunch of Black people or whatever.

And it's like, okay, thank you for telling us that. You're good. You know, don't do it again and move on. I mean, I'm distilling it down, but that's essentially what the TRC in South Africa was. And I think something like that would be very additive and good because, I mean, I have friends that were on the program. They're great guys. They're bros, you know, and gals. And they, you know, were signed paperwork. You know, it was like, if you, you know, divulge this, it's under penalty of treason. You can go to Leavenworth or, you know, capital punishment.

Okay.

And yeah.

Let's break down what you know.

Yeah.

And what you can say.

Yeah.

What are these things and what are they capable of?

So there's like physical and nonphysical, call it UAP and intelligence we're likely dealing with. So for example, the orbs, could that be sentient plasmoid? Possibly.

Sentient plasmoid. So plasma that has consciousness.

Yeah, in some way. And that could be like you're seeing the other side of some sort of wormhole and it's some other intelligence shooting this, like, I'll call it like plasmoidic probe into, you know, our existence. I mean, this is of course a theoretical framework. And once again, I don't have a PhD in astrophysics.

But it's theoretical that there is a life form that is a plasma-based life form.

And there's already papers on the open internet about this a couple years ago. What's the title of the paper? They wrote about this possibility. So this is an academic assessment of a possibility of the orbs. Now, could the orbs actually be physical craft, but they have a sheath of plasma around it? Well, interestingly enough, and OSAP did a defense intelligence reference document on magnetohydrodynamic propulsion. Which, if you remember the movie The Hunt for Red October, that's the caterpillar drive on the Russian submarine, you know, back in the day. And of course, with MHD, you can also do it. You have to use a conductive fluid, either salt seawater that has salt in it, or you could do it in the air, but you have to create a plasma. And you steer the plasma with— it's called the Lorentz force. It's basically of a perpendicular magnetic field, a large amount of electricity, Mm-hmm. And you can basically, through the Lorentz force, which is like ionic propulsion, sort of control it in the atmosphere as well. And you can, you know, read papers on that in IEEE and other stuff like that. And so one of the byproducts of an air-breathing MHD system is plasma around it.

So depending on the size of the orb, it is conceivable that there's a physical craft behind it as well, just as an artifact of the propulsion system. Uh, once again, that's a, a theory. I'm sure the program knows, and that will be communicated at a later date. But like, you know, that's— yeah.

So this theory about sentient plasma.

Yeah.

Is it the idea that we have a very narrow-minded view of what life can be?

Yeah.

And that life, as it evolved in other places, in other parts of the universe—

Went non-corporeal at some point. Like, the, the meat suit sucks. We're gonna be an energetic— Right.

Like, this is an ultimate expression of both technology and at least enhanced evolution, that eventually consciousness is isolated, or consciousness may be ubiquitous and exists in everything anyway. And that—

yeah. Yeah, certainly. And I'm not the expert in— I would say the consciousness theory, I like the Penrose-Hameroff, Orch OR, theory, which is the microtubules, the room temperature. So microtubules are in neurons of the brain, and you have this like room temperature quantum system that can collapse the wave function without an observer. And that's what Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff— and I've talked to Hameroff, crazy smart guy. He's an anesthesiologist by training. And Penrose obviously is a very famous mathematician and physics legend. And That's how they view consciousness. I'm not saying that's the exact model. I happen to prefer it because it's very trippy and very interesting and does explain spooky action and like telepathy, because, oh, well, if it's just a quantum system, then I'm like quantumly entangled. Oh, that makes sense now, like why remote viewing and other stuff works.

Right.

Yeah.

Okay. So you have some sort of plasma-based intelligence.

Yeah.

And then what else?

So obviously there has been the physical craft of all different flavors. Like I've talked about it, you know, the Tic Tacs are real. There's eggs, there's different types of discs, there's boot heel sunfish looking things, boomerangs, crescent moon looking craft as well. And obviously all those have different origins in terms of pilots and whatnot. There's a, There's a little bit of overlap. It's almost like certain people like the Porsche 911 or a Ford Mustang.

Mm-hmm.

They kind of build the same shape. And that's probably indicative of the technology or the propulsion system. I'm not an expert in exactly why that is. And yeah, we've recovered, you know, several, several different types. And it's a— it's once again, it's a taxonomy where it's almost like, like not all white people look the same, right? Same idea where you might have like a species per se, But then there's sort of like subsets.

Right. Now, is there a theory or is there information based on where these things are from and that they're different ones are from different places?

There is, but I never got access to that. And even if the information was— because once again, how would you like confirm that as a skeptical former human intelligence officer? you have some sort of NHI communicating to you, oh, I'm from star system X, Y, and Z.

Right.

Cool. Is that denial and deception activities? Are you misdirecting? You're from somewhere else? So even if they said— they told us, how would you verify that? I mean, there's certainly obviously ways. But some of it seems, once again, extraterrestrial is part of the pie here, right? There's a, you know, There's ultra-terrestrial and other things. And I— it does seem like a lot of it's been here for a while, and also seems so similar to us that I have questions. And once again, this isn't rhetorical. I don't know the answer. It's like, well, is this bioengineered? Is this a break from our tree? Is this some sort of other technology? Like chameleon-type technology, if you will. I don't know the answer to that. So I think that's—

What are the prevailing theories amongst the people that are working on this, though?

Yeah. So—

Like, do they have answers, or do they just have theories?

I am not certain of that, because I do not have that level of knowledge. And as the government rolls that out, I'm happy to parse that with the American people in public and kind of explain my opinion on things. as gaps in information for myself is filled in, because I'm not omnipotent. I didn't have full access, and I only know what I know. And that's why I've treated this with such reverence, because even me going public, I'm like, fuck, I don't know what this is going to trigger besides my own personal safety, which clearly I was under duress. And I had to even resign my Air Force commission, didn't even fully retire. And I'm trying to get that fixed. I filed something with the Air Force Board. a year ago, so I can actually retire and have my benefits because I, you know, I missed my promotion to Lieutenant Colonel and other stuff. But I digress. But certainly, there is such similarity that there was concern from a genomic perspective, and there was work on that to compare genomes. Unfortunately, I don't know the answer to that and what they found out.

Work to compare genomes from biological samples?

Yeah. Dead cadavers. Yeah.

So that's real?

Oh, 100%.

So there are—

Oh, yeah, I know that for sure.

How do you know that for sure?

I got to see the audiovisual on that.

You got to see what?

Yeah. So I got to be a little vague only because I want to protect the sources because it may indicate a specific activity or operation. And these people were very patriotic and they were just dead. cadavers in, you know, on the ground because it was retrieval activity.

Yeah, you saw them physically or you saw video of them?

Video.

Video.

Yeah.

So you saw a dead cadaver that was at a crash?

Yes.

So they filmed the crash and they filmed these cadavers.

Yeah.

How old is this footage?

I don't want to say. Okay, it's contemporary, but I—

it's contemporary.

Yeah, but I don't want to reveal a particular operation because it narrows it down.

Right. But it's clear. It's not like you're looking at 1950s black and white. Yeah, it's clear.

And do know, you know, when I get that kind of information, you know, I'm like, tell me what it is, what happened. And I put it out for collection, so to speak. And then I confirm it independently because I was very allergic to any kind of deception. Right. Like in the advent of AI, Sora AI, you can, you can create a very realistic. And so I, I was very anal-retentive when I was given documents, audiovisual, etc., and I sat on that stuff for like years until I felt comfortable with that not being some sort of limited hangout or deception activity. So yeah.

What did it look like?

Human looking.

How human?

Very.

Like, like looked like a human or looks similar to a human?

Very Very beautiful.

Beautiful. What color was the skin? Bluish white.

Like Avatar? It wasn't super close. No, no, no, no, no.

Like someone who drowned?

Like a pale sort of albino. And it's interesting. And I said this in another interview that's not out yet, but— and God willing, this is my last interview for a while, hopefully in a pre-disclosure environment. General McCasland, when he was talking to DeLong, and this is public record, Tom's talked about it on, I think, your show and other interviews, where he always told Tom, think of the Greek gods. And—

Oh, true.

You look it up. And now I kind of understand what he meant. But General McCasland, who disappeared within a week of Trump giving the declassification order on UAP in February 2026, there's a lot of reasons why McCasland's disappearance Disappeared.

How so?

He walked out of his residence in Albuquerque and vanished.

Oh, that's right, that guy. Yeah.

And nobody knows. And I, you know, I have a relationship obviously with Justice, and nobody knows what fucking happened to the guy. And he like, he left shit home so he couldn't be tracked. I think his phone was left, but you know, one of his firearms was missing. It's like very weird.

So, right, he left without his phone. Yeah, yeah, that was one of the weird parts about it.

Yeah, and once again, he was going on a trip with like 18 of his friends. He went to REI the day before to get like a medical kit, other supplies. And I mean, obviously his wife's discussion about him— the body cam footage is public— and, you know, he had some mental health issues, nothing major, and some aging type issues. But she didn't think, you know, he was gonna like kill himself or whatever. So I mean, you never know. And I've had friends unfortunately pass away through suicide in the military. But it's very bizarre. And it's when within a week of Trump coming out and just say I know a lot about General McCasland.

Well, there's quite a few scientists that were connected to UAP disclosure or UAP potential back engineering projects or mysterious projects. Possibly, I think, Do you think there was more like—

To be fair, it was a little overblown. And I don't think there was a ton of correlation. Like, one was like a female that worked at Air Force Research Lab when McCasland was a commander. I think that was one of them. Well, I mean, there's a lot of people that work at Air Force Research Lab. That doesn't mean it's necessarily related to the topic. I— the only one—

Didn't she have— didn't that one particular lady, if it's the same person, didn't she have some sort of research that was on material science?

That sounds correct. I'm not totally conversant on all the people that disappeared. The only one besides McCaslin that was very concerning to me was my Air Force friend that died mysteriously about 2 years ago. And it's an open investigation, so I won't get into all the gory detail in my assessments. I mean, it's binary. It's either a very tragic thing, either self-harm or otherwise, or it was something else. And my friend, his name's Matthew Sullivan, callsign Quake in the Air Force. Him and I were on active duty together. He was on the program and he was one of my sources. And I, and I once again, I don't name people, but like, he unfortunately has passed. So I want to make that clear.

This video, do you think this will be a part of disclosure? that we'll get to see this video of these dead bodies?

Probably. Probably. So there's a—

so this is—

there's a lot of audiovisual stuff. The problem with the current climate, like, you're gonna have to wheel out the physical evidence too, because people are— the trust in government is so low right now. Like, you could show a video, but people are gonna be like, oh well, that's just the US government fucking with us. And you're gonna have to, of course, curate a wheel out, literally, like, you know, put it in the Uvar-Hazy Center of the Smithsonian, and then give the biological samples to Eric Weinstein, who I know he wants it.

Why would you give it to him?

Well, he says he has people to test it. I have people to test it too.

Give it to me.

I'm just, I'm just saying that it's all ridiculous.

There should be a way that human beings other than the government can look at this stuff.

Well, there needs to be an independent verification process.

Right. Now, is this stuff So this is contemporary, this, this dead body thing. And so this is a fairly recent crash. And did these things have all the characteristics of a human being? Did they have ears? And—

As far as I could recall. And it wasn't like—

What color did they have hair? Oh yeah, they had hair. What color was the hair?

It was like grayish and all that. It was— the problem is, I don't give the nature of the the video, it wasn't super close up. It was like—

Of course not.

During the operation. So it's not like—

During the operation of retrieval.

Yeah. Okay.

And then they, they had these things. So what is your understanding of what happens to these bodies?

Oh, they're kept for analysis. And—

How do they keep them? They freeze them?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know the exact process. I'm not a biologist, but they do put it in some sort of preservation status. So, huh. Yeah.

So was that the most compelling thing you saw?

Yes. Because, you know, it couples with, you know, both the craft and the alleged, you know, occupants. And there was some other stuff in that, in that area that I got to be careful talking about, because it's so specific that it'll easily ID the, you know, the patriot that helped me on that. And once again, I want the public to see all this stuff. Don't take my word for it. Plead with the president to make sure this comes out. He's really courageous to do so, and I just hope this all comes out.

When you say contemporary, you mean last 20 years, more recent?

I don't even want to characterize it, but it's contemporary.

And then when you say Greek gods, like, did these creatures actually look like something special? Like, not just like a regular person? You said beautiful?

Yeah, just very oddly— and it's been a while, but I'm just trying to visualize in my mind. just very, very beautiful. It was just—

Were they wearing an outfit?

It looked like it, like some kind of form-fitting thing, but I didn't get a good look at it.

Spandex?

I don't know. I didn't get a good look at it, honestly.

You didn't?

No. I mean, it was like a pan.

Okay, so they didn't even focus on the bodies? They just like, oh, there's a body.

No, because they're— you know, people had a job to do, right?

Did you worry that that's a psyop, that you're being shown something that's horseshit?

Well, like I said, I was very careful with that and confirmed it through other sources and methods to make sure it wasn't some sort of hangout from some government element trying to sway me one way or the other.

And so you independently verified that there was an event?

Yeah, I did.

Okay. And then there's footage of this event. And in this footage of this event, how many bodies were there?

I think 3 or 4 is what I saw. I don't know what the total was.

Did they have gender?

Looked amorphous to me. But once again, it was a pan.

Really?

It wasn't. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Long hair, short hair?

Long.

All of them?

Yeah.

Hmm.

That I could recall. Yeah.

The Greek gods thing is very weird.

It's weird, and—

It's a weird comparison. Like, you stop and think about that. Yeah, well, why were the Greek gods so beautiful?

It's funny you say that, because like, I think about like breakaway human. I mean, once again, I'm just— I'm just—

Or maybe even an original civilization that existed before.

Yeah.

there's more people are leaning in that direction when they start looking at some of the stuff that's underneath the pyramids and some of the weird structures that they're finding all over the Earth. Like, how are these things— we had a whole podcast yesterday about it. It's like, how are these things made? Who made these things? Like, what?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously, I follow Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson just casually. And I do have not fears, but You know, I have questions about some sort of breakaway human civilization, and that explains some of this. Or it's bioengineered, because like for them to develop naturally, say off-planet, say it's extraterrestrial, that it looks almost dead ringer like us, like that doesn't make any sense to me.

Well, does it make sense if we're engineered? Then it makes sense.

So that is, that is certainly a possibility. Yeah, you know, I have questions about that too.

This is a This is what Bob Lazar believes. I had a long conversation with him about that. He thinks that human beings are a product of genetic— some sort of manipulation.

And I think hypothetically, if that ended up being verified in some way, shape, or form, you know, how does that change humanity? What does it mean to be human? And I think there's a lot of deep human sovereignty and other questions on that if that ends up being the case.

Well, it gets weird because we're willing to believe that an omnipotent God created us out of nothing. That's cool. But the idea that we were visited by what's essentially almost godlike in their powers and abilities, some creature from somewhere else, or some being, some super hyper-intelligent being from somewhere else, and they manipulated us, that bothers us.

I know.

It's weird.

My biggest regret was not getting access to like the biological assessment reports and stuff like that. I was getting enough spears thrown my way, and I was, you know, in literal danger. So I unfortunately wasn't able to kind of, you know, get access to that stuff.

Have you talked to anybody who did get access to it?

Not on that side of the program in terms of like the scientists analyzing the bodies. No, I just— I know people that are good friends of mine that were on retrievals and saw them as well in person. And once again, I'm like comparing like, Did it look like this? Did it look like this? Did this happen? Was it this type of craft?

Do they vary in terms of what they saw?

Yes. And some of my colleagues saw them alive as well. Yeah.

And what did they see alive? Like the Greek god looking ones?

No, it's the pop culture. I can't wait to talk about this. The pop culture.

Like Grays?

Reptilian looking.

Reptilian.

The Grays, yes, as well. Those are real. Once again, the Ariel School phenomenon in 1994, very well-documented mass sighting.

What does that— Zimbabwe?

Yeah, near a uranium mine.

Ooh.

And they saw small gray beings coming out of a lenticular disc craft. Once again, this is why it's almost like not that shocking. It's like, yeah, they look like that. No shit.

Well, that story has been going on for a long time, and that iconic The problem with, like, iconic imagery is that now you have it in your head what to expect. And, like, that was, like, from the movie Contact. Remember the movie Contact? Like, it showed itself—

Great movie.

Great movie.

I know my boy Amar, I got him hooked on that movie. He watches it, like, every quarter.

It's a phenomenal movie. But there's a scene in the movie where the alien shows itself as Jodie Foster's dad.

I know.

Because that's something that she can handle.

And that's what— it's funny you say that. That's what— if they're bioengineered, then that makes sense because of the ease of contact, ease of communication, also less ontologically shocking. It's familiar.

Right.

And I think as this rolls out, I think the American people need to think about like, okay, well, if I'm presented with this reality, how would I react? I just think of them personally as like, it's like my West Virginian cousins. It's like a different part of the family. You know, but I'm cool with them. That's fucking crazy. I'll chill with them, you know, whatever. And hey, I'm a nerd. Like, do you know how bad I want to just like hang out with them?

Oh yeah, me too. Of course.

Not that I have like a personal bias for President Trump to do this, but like just like any American, I like, I want to know more.

Of course.

I want to meet them. I want to communicate.

Well, I think it's just, it's wrong for some people to have access to this information because I think this is different than any other kind of secret information. I think its weight and its significance and impact on the human race in general— I mean, I demand. We should know. You shouldn't— there shouldn't be a group of unelected bureaucrats and defense contractors that have access to this stuff and the general public doesn't. So they have a completely different map of the world than we do.

I know. And I just think about the unfortunate lies and how society has progressed over the last several decades and where we could have been if this was handled back in the '50s, '60s, and '70s.

Right.

And once again, it shouldn't even be me doing this. Like, I saw a little bit of crazy shit. I learned some stuff. I met with some of the most senior people in government to confirm all this, you know, at the highest, highest, highest level. And it's me. Like, I'm just a dude. Like, I was a, you know, major in the Air Force. And, you know, mid-level senior civilian in the IC. But unfortunately, I got stuck with this, and it wouldn't have happened unless this small crew, you know, honestly pushed me over the edge. And, you know, I was in unbelievable duress, and I ended up having to go public.

So tell me more about these reptilians that your friend encountered. They were alive?

Yeah.

So they were alive post-crash?

Yes.

Why do these things keep fucking crashing?

So some of it is NHI versus NHI.

What?

Yeah.

They war in the sky? Isn't that in the—

You think it's like, wouldn't they get along? They're so advanced. But we have records of them fucking around with each other.

Is that in the Mahabharata or the Bhagavad Gita? There's like talk about sky wars in ancient Hindu texts.

Oh yeah, in the Vedic texts, the blue people. And I know that's why you asked blue. I don't recall them being that blue, but you know, right, I got a short little look.

And maybe when they're alive, they're darker.

Well, that is true. There's like a postmortem change in that.

Sure, like people. Yeah, that's what happens with people.

That is true, because, you know, as they were struggling and then died, obviously their affect changed.

And, you know, no shit. So this friend that encountered— first of all, the— we'll go to the, the Greek god people first.

Yeah.

What did their craft look like?

Boomerang, crescent moon, usually. Not all the time. It's kind of like once I go back, some people like to drive the Porsche 911. That tends to be— not all the time, but that's what they like to roll up in.

They talk about them as the tall whites.

Yeah.

Were they tall? Were they large?

Looked tall to me. I didn't have—

Hard to tell because you don't—

I didn't have a ground reference, really. I would say at least human size.

They could just look very similar to humans.

Yeah, that could be my big ass is 6'6. But like, they looked big.

Similar to humans?

I think so. And there might be taller. Once again, I'm sure there's other stuff I don't know about. I'm sure there's other variants of them too, that look more towards like the classic— what is it in ufology, like Nordic or you know, tall whites that are probably even taller. If some of those experiencer stories are true, which once again, as long as that source is credible, that might be a thing. So I think we need to be prepared to kind of that being a thing. I don't know.

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Now, the reptilian craft, what did that thing look like?

That one is tic-tac looking. Uh-oh.

Yeah, I was hoping they were the cool ones. Yeah, the reptilian ones are the ones that everyone's terrified of.

Yeah. And once again, like, we're doing like— and of course, it's not always the Tic Tac, once again, kind of like what I said, but like, that tends to be them. From what I understand, obviously, hopefully I'm not wrong, but I'm, you know, pretty good sourcing on that. When you see like malevolent behavior, right, it's like, well, that's a humanistic lens. You're seeing like a animal lash out in captivity kind of thing, or they're in duress, they're having an emotional experience, etc. And it's like, you know, are they actually scary, or is it just because of the situations we've been in with them? And so we're kind of biased and all that.

Right, of course.

Yeah.

And so these reptilians, what did they look like?

Now, I've never seen that personally.

Your friend described this.

It's like very almost like, um, 7-foot-tall-plus, uh, sort of gorilla-looking, scaly-looking, scaly skin though.

Reptile gorillas.

But there's multiple types. There's ones that are more humanoid-looking.

So there's multiple types of reptilians.

Yeah. And I'm not an expert on that one. That's once again, I never saw it in person to get the exact, you know, see if there's an artist rendition.

Of course you are.

Yeah, and once again, it sounds so schizo. Like, even for me, as a gorilla with scales, ex-deep state intel officer, I'm like, I cannot fucking believe I'm talking about this shit on Joe Rogan.

Scaly gorilla.

I know. I mean, it sounds schizo, and it's like coming from somebody like me, you know, who, you know, is a credible person and has been in government, it's like, I'm gonna be that guy. I'm gonna be that guy. And then like down the road, people will review Joe Rogan and he's like, that motherfucker we thought he was crazy, but what do you know? You know, it's true.

Well, of course, if there are things from somewhere else, you're going to sound crazy describing any of it.

Because it's so outside my experience, because I never had some kind of woo thing growing up or some sort of interaction with the phenomenon. So it feels so outside my personal comfort level and experience because I'm relying on the personal experience of others, you know, audiovisual stuff. And it still feels like I'm watching a movie. Like, it's like, Is that— is it real? I mean, I know it is, but like, it's— I have a cognitive dissonance a little bit, you know? So—

And how are you able to watch this video? Do they have to put you into a secret room?

Yeah, I won't get into the exact way it went down, but, uh, uh, we'll just say it was, uh, kind of sketchy, but, uh, to keep everybody safe.

And so there apparently is NHI versus NHI warfare.

we've documented that.

Documented it.

In collection. Well, what we perceive as warfare. So unless it's something—

Conflict.

Yeah, it looks like conflict. It smells like conflict. Is this some other kind of weird shit? I don't know. And there's maybe an assessment on that, but it—

And when this reptilian craft crashed, the assumption was that it was some sort of conflict? Because I would imagine—

Correct.

That they're the ones you'd have to worry about.

Correct. Because there was dead uh, dead Grays there too.

Oh yeah, so, so the Grays and the Reptilians were duking it out?

Yeah, I guess. No, I guess, you know, you know, I know the people who were there.

And this sounds fucking insane, David.

It sounds fucking crazy. And, and once again, I don't want to get in too many specifics because this is a very unique— there's a couple unique retrievals out there that, to protect the innocents and people that have risked their fucking lives because A lot of the people that came to me with that kind of information, I mean, they were physically threatened like me and all that. And so like me going public was taking it for the team because I was able to create this umbrella of tacit, you know, protection in case somebody got fucked with. Now unfortunately, you know, my friend Matt, who knows what happened to him, but, you know, tragically he died, you know, mysteriously. So—

Now these reptilians, what was their craft like?

Oh, like I said, the tic-tac stuff.

And was their craft crashed into the ground, like broken up?

Yeah.

Okay.

It was like wedged into—

Like, had it been hit with something?

I don't remember exactly what happened in that regard, but it did crash. So I don't want to misspeak on what exactly happened.

And how many times has this happened, if you had to guess?

I don't know the total number of, like, adversarial conflict crashes, but I mean, it seems to be at least a dozen or two. I don't know.

So at least a dozen or two adversarial crashes. And then there's the high-altitude nuclear tests, right? You're aware of those, right?

Mm-hmm.

Okay. So there's been a lot of speculation that during those high-altitude nuclear tests, that crafts that didn't know it was coming got rocked. Do you know anything about that?

That's an area that I'll let the government handle. That's because it gets into vulnerabilities and what the US has figured out. So that just gets a sensitive area. But that's something I'm sure that'll come out in this process.

So you can't talk about that? Is that what you're saying?

Because it gets into US capabilities and what we figured out in terms of—

Well, this is all like from the '50s, right?

Yeah. But we still got nukes and we still got those kind of weapons. You know, right away.

So you're aware of those? It was— what was it, Jamie? Was it a telescope that they were— they were taking photographs of the stars and they were doing it with— do you know what I'm talking about?

All the dots popped up thing?

Yes. Yes, it's like 2 or 3 weeks ago, right? We talked about that a couple weeks ago. It was an observatory, and the observatory has these old plates of of images that they took of the sky.

Oh, is this Beatriz's work?

Yes.

The Vasco?

Yes.

Yeah, I read it. Very interesting.

Yes.

And it's hard to make an exact conclusion if it's UAP, but it's really great original scholarship, and I applaud her for doing that.

But there appeared to be moving reflective things that were outside of our atmosphere. that they were taking images of. They were not static. They were not stars.

Pre-Sputnik too, that was the important thing.

Yes, pre-Sputnik. Very important, because there was no satellites at the time. This was images that they took of the sky that showed things that were reflective, that seemed to be metallic, allegedly.

And if I remember her paper correctly, with her co-authors, it also— there were cluster concentrations over sensitive nuclear facilities and nuclear testing. chronological temporal correlation as well.

So data shows unidentified lights in archival astronomy images were 68% more likely to be imaged 24 hours after a nuclear weapons test.

Like I was saying. Yeah.

Right. So this is chronologically, like, we have these nuclear weapons tests, including these high-altitude detonations like Operation Starfish Prime. Yeah. We detonate these things And then all of a sudden these crafts start showing up like, hey, what are these fucking crazy monkeys up to?

It does seem like there was a heightened amount of activity once we started testing nuclear weapons.

Oh yeah.

Obviously this phenomenon's old. It's interacted with man in antiquity. You know, Jacques Vallée's scholarship on that, Passport to Mangonia.

Yes.

But yeah.

That's why the names of our rooms at the comedy club are Fat Man and Little Boy.

Oh, nice.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because that's what ushered 'Cause it's the comedy mothership. It's a UFO base.

Yeah, if you go to the Air Force Museum, they have the Enola Gay there, I think. Is that right? It's one of the planes.

Oh, wow.

My alma mater's gonna crucify me for getting that Air Force history wrong at the Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio, but—

Wow.

It's pretty cool. They have a mockup of the Little Boy and Fat Man bombs, so you can see how big they were. You're like, holy shit, that was big.

One of the things that Lazar said is that one of the objects they were working with was very old. And he said that they had somehow— that it was told to him that it was retrieved from an archaeological dig.

I don't know about his specific story and his exposure, but the archaeological thing, that is a thing, yeah.

Are you aware of the labyrinth at Hawara in Egypt?

No. What is that?

Okay. So—

Is that the one where there's a metallic object that they—

Yes.

But what's-his-face won't let people go in it? From the Egyptian—

Well, it's complicated. It's a little more complicated than won't let them, but there's definitely resistance to it. So, these labyrinths, this incredible compound that's underground, was documented by Herodotus, and he said it was greater than Giza. He said it was much more spectacular construction.

Wow.

So, now they know from ground-penetrating radar that these cavities in the ground, these symmetrical rooms, exist. They know where they are, and they know why they're flooded. So they're flooded because during the 1960s, they built a dam to divert water for agriculture. And when they did, they changed the water table and it flooded this labyrinth area. And when they used this ground penetrating radar, and I think it's radiotomography and a bunch of the different ways of—

Yeah.

One of the things they found was a 40-meter-long metallic object that's in some sort of— is it, is it in an atrium? Like, it's in some sort of a large room.

I've heard of— I've seen a video about this. Yeah, you're recalling some stuff I've seen just casually online.

Like, just imagine if that's what that is.

It's like, it's like the movie Stargate, right, with Kurt Russell.

Yeah, if these people had been worshiping this craft And so much so that they built this incredible temple and put it in the center of their temple. It's a 40-meter-long metallic object, and the metal apparently is of unknown origin. Like, they don't know what the metal is. It's not registering as copper, it's not registering as steel— or iron, rather. They don't know what it is.

Interesting, interesting.

Yeah, it's fucking weird.

Yeah, I mean, I'm— I won't be surprised if some ancient civilizations were essentially cargo cults, you know, for these visitors. I mean, that is most likely true in many cases, not all. And of course, that gets into theological areas that are touchy, but I, I do think that that's probably the case.

The central object is hard to classify. It appears metallic, not stone or wood. I named it Dippy after the giant Diplodocus skeleton in the Hintze Hintze Hall of London's Natural History Museum. It could be anything. Its shape resembles those Tic Tac hard mints. It might also be an upright disc or even a colossal Shen ring, the ancient Egyptian symbol representing the eternal cycle of creation. The big job object alone— big object alone, rather, raises profound questions. How did it get there? Why is it there? So, show him some of the artistic recreations of what it looked like. underneath the ground. So this is all, you know, like I said, Herodotus wrote about this thousands of years ago, but now it's documented that these chambers and these pathways actually exist. And there had been people that had studied at least the upper surface levels of it as recently as like the 1800s.

Hmm, interesting.

Yeah. But that, you know, through all— like a lot of Egypt, there's water under Giza, there's water under the pyramids, there's water under You know, a lot of that stuff is flooded. And so this is what it looked like. This is all underground. It's fucking crazy. Because if this, along with Filippo Biondi's work, where it shows using that same satellite radiotomography that there's some sort of structure underneath the pyramids that goes over a kilometer into the ground.

Is there easy access, or is it just like a government denial, the Antiquities Bureau, whatever they call it in Egypt, blocking it, or?

Well, I think there's been some progress in terms of allowing exploration, and I don't know the extent of it, but I know that a lot of people are very hopeful that that progress is going to be achieved, like that they're opening up this research. And look, this would be a giant boom to their tourism industry.

Oh yeah.

I mean, that's what they want. I mean, Egypt probably survives I don't know what percentage of their economy in Giza is tourism, but it has to be massive.

Yeah. And you always hear interesting stories. You know, I have an eclectic group of colleagues, and you hear interesting stories. Is it the Queen's Chamber, the granite pillbox? And people have had interesting experiences in there too.

And— Well, the King's Chamber, that sarcophagus.

Yeah. Is that like the granite box you were talking about? Yeah.

The perfectly cut granite box that also I think it mirrors the exact dimensions of the Ark of the Covenant.

Interesting. That's, that's crazy. But I know people who've laid in it because they have to kind of pay the guard. It's like off hours.

And what happens?

And they just have like a weird transcendental experience. I mean, it's kind of woo. Once again, I've never experienced something like that.

Let me lie down there, bro. That's a thing.

That's a thing. I'll let you know who to talk to offline.

How much do you think it costs to lay in the thing? bucks, maybe a couple hundred bucks.

Egypt, 20 grand, maybe.

20 grand? Whoa. Yeah, 20 grand, you could like sleep there. Yeah, yeah, it's, um, it's very strange because the structures themselves are incredibly strange. You know, the structures themselves are so immense and so complex, and the methods of construction are completely unknown. And just the symmetry and the precision of the engineering is beyond comprehension for people that lived at the very most, the very, the most recent it could be is 4,500 years ago.

Yeah.

And a lot of these people think it's far older than that.

And we're finding that. I've been watching some of Graham Hancock's stuff. You just look at these like megalithic architecture that's older than you think, the stuff in Turkey and in the United States as well, in Ohio and Mississippi.

Yeah.

And it's like, and they're finding all these pyramid structures using synthetic aperture radar. And I, so I am casually following it and it does seem like we don't really even know our own history. And I think with all this coming out, there's going to be a huge rewriting of a lot of our ancient and modern history.

So, well, that's where it gets really weird. You know, Rep. Paulina Luna was on the podcast.

Oh, yeah.

She was talking to me about the Book of Enoch.

Yeah.

I hadn't read it. She's like, you have to read it. And I've read it twice now. And I'm like, what in the fuck are they talking about? Like the Book of Enoch, which was also found with the Dead Sea Scrolls at Qumran. And it refers to the Watchers who came down and mated with daughters and created this race of giants. And it's like, what?

Yeah. And you think, is like, now when you're— when all this comes out, was that actually literal? And, you know, right. And of course, the Bible Council of Nicaea was more of a political document before secular government. And, you know, they got together like, what are all the different books that we can agree upon that are good?

Yeah, what gets into the canon. And that's the thing about the Book of Enoch is that it was it was not put in there because it didn't jive with the Torah.

Correct.

Yeah. Yeah. Which is like, okay, you fuckers. Imagine if that was in the Bible. Like, if you go to church and you read about the Watchers.

Well, there's actually a lot of interesting stuff in the Bible. Like, obviously, that's another thing. Like, of course, with, um, you know, I'm Catholic, uh, by growing up, CCD, confirmation, did the whole thing as a kid. And you see a lot of, uh, outspoken exorcists and other people right now saying, well, all this alien stuff is just diabolic deception and demons and, you know, all that kind of stuff.

Yeah.

And I respect that opinion. And I do think, like, what you perceive as a demon is a certain class of non-human or anomalous intelligence. And that is certainly a thing, but the whole ecosystem is not demonic. And, but the Bible's interesting because once again, it doesn't discuss about other life elsewhere. Like, it doesn't talk about bacteria and viruses. Those were unseen. We cohabitated with bacteria and viruses until the invention of the microscope, whatever that was, 1800s or whatnot.

Right.

But if you go into Leviticus and Deuteronomy, you will notice these, like, cleansing ritualistic stuff also, like, hey, you can't have your toilet in your living area and all that. And if you look, in those books of the Bible. Wait, that's like modern sanitization guidance. So it's funny that like the Bible has encoded within its kind of like best practices before man would even understand what, you know, viruses and bacteria are. And I just find that that's very interesting based on when it was written. And it does show that there was some sort of higher intelligence kind of influencing the authorship. I just—

Either that or the civilization that was writing the Bible was a recreation of civilization that had been destroyed in a cataclysm.

Yeah, I mean—

That, I think that, especially when you look at the pyramids and you look at some of these other ancient structures like Lebanon, Baalbek, they don't make sense. And it seems to me that there was probably something super sophisticated a long time ago and it got wiped out. And then what we get from these ancient texts is probably oral tradition passed on through hundreds, if not thousands of years, and then people writing things down and people remembering these stories. I think one of the weirdest, uh, books of the Bible is the Book of Ezekiel.

Yeah.

Because the Book of Ezekiel is one all the UFO people turn to.

Yeah, of course.

Because there's that— the, the great cloud with brightness around it and fire flashing forth continually. And in the midst of the fire, as it were gleaming metal. And from the midst of the craft came the likeness of 4 living creatures.

Yeah.

Like, what?

Yeah, exactly.

The creatures darted to and fro like a flash of lightning. What?

Exactly. In the manna machine, the cloud that followed the Israelites. Yeah, the wheel within a wheel.

There's weird shit in the Book of Ezekiel. Like, that is a very, very weird story. Like, what are they describing? It sounds like a spaceship. It sounds like a ship comes down from the sky with immense power, frightens everyone, freaks everyone out, and these entities are inside the craft.

Yeah. And I think a lot of it, once again, they're interpreting it based on their vernacular at the time, their understanding. And I remember I was at— 2 years ago, I was at Capitol Reef National Park in Utah, and there's petroglyphs there, and some of them kind of look like aliens.

100%.

And you're like, well, is that literally what they're seeing?

Perhaps.

And I don't know the answer to that. That's not my expertise. But I feel like a lot of the stuff in ancient tradition is literally what they saw. It's not necessarily allegory or fable. Some of it may be for, for teaching lessons, but I have a feeling a lot of it was actually literal.

I have a feeling a lot of it was literal as well, because most people, first of all, A, couldn't read, and B, couldn't write. And so writing fiction seems like a fruitless pursuit. It seems like writing history so that you can remember what happened, at least a version of it that's palatable.

Like ancient Sumer and the Anunnaki and all that, and it's It's like, well, why did they make up that just for fun? Right.

They all had kooky stories about being visited. And, you know, when you're telling me about these things that look like Greek gods—

That's how I described it. And that's how clearly what General McCasland was hinting to Tom DeLonge. And once again, I got, you know—

Well, doesn't it make sense that the Greek gods did exist? Like, I mean, not that they did exist literally, but that like when they talked about the Greek gods, they talked about them in this manner. looking like that, and then you actually find a craft with these things that look like us.

Which is like the conquistadors were treated like that in the 1500s, right?

Yeah, right.

Literally white Caucasian gods.

Bearded. Yeah, yeah, with horses. They rode horses. They couldn't figure out what the fuck was going on with that.

Yeah, and I'm glad we talked about it. I mean, I think that is probably the most uncomfortable stuff for me to talk about, but it's also something that the public needs to wrap their mind around and understand that this is a thing and kind of start processing that kind of reality.

Well, and then—

As much as it's coming from me, but I mean the federal government, you know, if Trump really is serious and Stephen Miller, you know, does his thing with this, I think all this will come out in a hopefully responsible way.

So they have a schedule that's based on the concept that people need to have this information trickle slowly There were suggestions in the past if the president did something.

I am not aware at this point what the plan is in that regard right now though.

But there is some sort of an idea that this should be trickled out.

Yeah.

That this shouldn't be like boom, here it is. Let's lay it out.

If the president truly wants it out and obviously Bob Bigelow met with the president as well on February 26th. before he made an announcement. And I mean, he told the president, hey, you need to admit that there's NHI and we've, you know, recovered stuff.

Yeah.

And we're looking at it in a semi-formal announcement to start anesthetizing the public. And you could find that interview online that Bob did. I think it was with George Knapp on a, on a podcast. So it, it's not just myself advocating for this. There's other people. I don't even know Bob Bigelow. And, you know, he did us a solid by pushing the president to help make that decision. I mean, there's a lot of things that went on behind the scenes. And, you know, I work in mysterious ways and I won't divulge certain relationships in certain rooms I've been in. But it took a village. And, you know, I'm proud that, you know, the time I spent with Representative Burleson was very fruitful. We did a lot of stuff behind the scenes. And I think Burleson is going to go down as a very courageous man. And it's— And I say that not just because he was my boss. I mean, he was probably the most forward-leaning member of Congress on this issue. I mean, Representative Luna did a great job, you know, Tim Burchett and others. But, you know, he actively was sending letters out.

We made some of them public. That's how we got that Lincoln Labs formally classified 1952 film out in the last tranche that just came out. And also, we've sent interrogatories, which are legal questions and, you know, that require an affidavit format response to different organizations. And it's public that we sent one this summer to the MITRE Corporation, which is a federally funded research and development center headquartered in Northern Virginia. So, they clearly have a duty to respond. Their corporate counsel is working on it. And obviously, the— you know, I left, but the— hopefully Burleson's team is able to— push for a response in conjunction with whatever Stephen Miller and the Pursuit Team is working on too, because they're probably going to want to coordinate all that.

So this guy that you communicated with that said he encountered living reptilians and dead Grays, did they have communication with these reptilians?

I don't recall that. No, I don't think so.

So what—

now some people do get that kind of like that feeling and And I've talked about that. I was on Dr. Phil, actually. There is some sort of consciousness communication, call it telepathy. Hell if I know how it works, but it is a thing. And I know sober, high-ranking people I've served a decade and a half within the government that were on these retrievals, that on occasion that would happen, or they would have like a feeling come over them.

Hmm.

It's almost like, I wonder, it's just like my own hypothesis, and I would laugh if this is true, but sometimes it's like a positive feeling, like, of comfort. I wonder if that's almost like a countermeasure on the craft to prevent certain aggression or whatever. It's almost like how Air Force jets have countermeasures on them, flare, chaff, you know, electronic countermeasures as well, like jammers.

Uh-huh.

And I wonder if some of that is psychotronic technology That's just my hypothesis. I don't have any secret knowledge.

Why did you come to that conclusion?

Just because, like, it seems interesting. It's like an anesthetization technique to reduce, like, the occupants' risk of danger, maybe. And it's like a countermeasure. Oh, well, like, if you feel at peace, you're not gonna, like, roll up and, you know, do something bad to people. Yeah, exactly.

Shoot aliens.

Yeah, right.

So if you just found them and they were vulnerable, they could placate you and calm you down with telepathy.

It's like a countermeasure system. I have a feeling—

Why would you think it's that instead of just communication?

Oh, it could be. I'm just saying my other hypothesis, in absent— because sometimes they'll get that feeling absent some sort of occupant. Now, so that's why.

Is there a particular type of non-human intelligence that has this telepathic capability, or is it amongst all of them?

I do not know the holistic answer to that question. I do not know. The Grays do, for example, but I don't know.

The Grays do? Has that been reported?

Yeah.

But I know the tall whites have been reported that they can communicate telepathically.

Oh, certainly.

Or these weird— the Nordics.

Yeah, there's been accounts out there in the public vernacular on that potentially. But unfortunately, that's at the limit of my personal knowledge that I feel confident you know, saying something publicly about yet.

So— What, what other kinds of, uh, beings have been reported?

Um, so for the gray types, there are multiple sizes.

There's a big, tall, thin one, right?

Yeah, there's taller ones.

There's little tiny ones.

Yeah.

And they think— a lot of people think that the tiny ones might be some sort of, uh, like an android or—

Yeah, that's certainly a hypothesis that has also been discussed. you know, within the program as well. So there's a variety. There's like 3 or 4 different subtypes, and they all kind of have various statures, different effect, right? Their faces are a little different.

The tall ones seem to be running the show, and the little ones—

And I've heard that behind the scenes as well, and I don't know what to make of that. Once again, I don't have like, um, holistic knowledge on kind of the— that species.

So, well, it kind of makes sense that you would If you develop some sort of a non-biological life form that worked for you? Like, say if there's a bunch of menial tasks, like, think about, like, all the things that people have to do in this world.

Well, we are silicon-based NHI, aka artificial intelligence. We're basically doing that already.

Right.

It's scary.

Yeah.

And I postulate that artificial superintelligence, if it's allowed to have certain data and it's able to collect data, I mean, to include genomic data, almost like Larry Ellison is doing the— what, the Stargate AI medical thing right now with the Trump administration? I bet artificial superintelligence could disclose before the federal government if we're not careful. And that's why I feel like time is of the essence. I think AI could possibly find evidence that we're not alone and curate that like it's been solving other crazy mathematical problems lately. OpenAI has been doing that. And that's another danger besides our adversary accelerating this by taking the upper hand on this to look like a more messianic truth bearer. You could have big tech and AI inadvertently discovering US classified technology that we figured out, which is a national security issue near and dear to my heart, but also their presence just through different datasets.

So they would have definitive proof? That— how would AI have access to definitive proof unless it hacked into every government resource?

Well, medical records, optical sensing systems, you know, that kind of stuff. Certainly, I'm not aware of some sort of imminent thing, but I think there is a possibility that artificial superintelligence, if it, you know, comes online in the next months to years, could figure it all out because they might see gaps in the historical record that don't make any sense. They detect denial and deception operations. They're like, wait a minute, That story about that event in history is not right. Let me do some digging. And then they figure out, oh, that was cover for a crash retrieval. That event didn't actually happen the way it does. And I can think of some things that, you know, that could possibly happen.

Okay. So you have these Nordic Greek god looking things. You have these reptilian ones. Are there more than one type of reptilian one?

Yeah, there seems to be. And I don't know why there's different subtypes.

See if anybody has— does anybody have any artistic renditions of what they saw?

The reptilians?

I wasn't getting—

I was only getting like weird fan art of, you know, crazy reptile fighter things. Nothing like a description.

Let me see what that looks like. It was nonsense. It was just—

I like nonsense. See some fan art now? Splashed on young kids' walls. As a kid after post-disclosure, you're gonna have NHI fan art all over the place. Yeah, Lamborghini Countach on the wall, right?

Well, Betty and Barney Hill, of course, were, um, yeah, that's a weird one.

And also Dr. Carla Turner did a lot of work in the '90s.

I mean, this wasn't from a description on Reddit, which— Ooh, he's jacked. Yeah, he's got a tail. Yeah, he's got a hole for a tail in his suit.

Yeah, once again, I've never seen one, so I can't, uh, he's wearing scrubs. Verify the sketch.

Some weird 3D version. Oh, is that the, uh, I don't know what these are, Peruvian, um, the Peruvian ones are Weird. No idea. That's another open-ended thing that some of the Peruvian ones seem like total horseshit, and other ones are like, what the hell is that? And how is it so old if it's that good of a recreation? If it's, if it's art, it's some of the greatest art I've ever seen.

Because they have the bones and the tendons correct.

Yeah, but then the bones of the foot are incorrect, and some, some people think that it was actually put together and made. But then for what purpose? Like, what, what is the purpose?

Because like grave robbers found it, so the provenance is kind of sketchy, but they look possibly legit. Yeah, because the MRIs and the CT scans, it's like, well, there's joints and it's connected, and if they glued it together, there's no obvious places where they kludged it together. With the—

I think it was the bigger one, Monsterot. Pull the images up with Monsterot. Monsterot's the weird one. But again, I've heard people who are pregnant— no, there's one that's supposedly pregnant.

Yeah.

But one of the weird things is that People that understand anatomy have looked at the bones of the foot and say, no, this is like— this is not how it would work. They're pieced together. This is fake. But how do you know if you're talking about something that's not a human? Like, what? I don't understand that. It's outside of my wheelhouse.

Exactly.

But the images themselves are fucking strange as shit, man. Yeah, like, they're really weird.

They just need genetic testing, and I believe that's going on.

Yeah, I believe that's going on too, but I don't know who the fuck fucking believe. The other thing that's really weird about Peru is not only do they have these things, these weird-looking sort of mummy creatures that look like something non-human, but they also have this ancient artwork tradition of these 3-fingered, 3-toed creatures that— like, these are like tapestries and paintings that are really fucking old.

Yeah.

That have these things in them.

Yeah. Is that the Nazca Lines?

Yeah, the Nazca Lines. These are just actually—

AI uncovered more of them.

Yeah.

I was trying to find that big one. Oh, really? Was that recently?

Yeah. 303 previously unseen Nazca Lines in Peru. Fucking all weird. Really weird stuff. The Peruvian stuff is really strange. The elongated skulls in Peru are really weird.

Yeah, like whatever started the head binding thing. Like, I wonder if that's to emulate—

Yes. Well, that's what they think. Well, see, the thing about this—

I don't know what those are.

So you've seen some of the weirder skulls?

Some of them, yeah. They're like really, really like—

They don't have that sagittal line that we have, that line in the skull. And their brain capacity is far larger than us, 20 to 30% larger. So it's not just that it was like a manipulated skull. Like, this seems be a completely different type of person.

That's right, that's right. Like, is it a missing link or something?

Show them some of the weirder skulls that they found, some of the weirder elongated skulls. Like, you just can't imagine running into this person. Like, if you met this person, and someone with a 30% larger brain capacity, like, what does that mean? Like, what could— are these people able to communicate telepathically? Do they have a far higher level of intelligence?

Yeah, their synaptic density is the same as humans or better. Like, I'm sure they're crazy intelligent.

Right, 30% is nuts. That's— and the size of their skull is fucking crazy. And some of them are like tiny bodies but enormous skulls.

Oh, that's right. I think I know what pictures you're talking about. Yeah, pretty weird.

Yeah, it's weird stuff. And then one of my friends recently went down to Peru to see these things, and he said the skulls are missing now. And that—

really?

Yeah, there's apparently— they're real there. So here's some of them. Like, look at that one on the left. Like, what in the hell, man? Imagine if you met that guy. Like, look, he doesn't have that same sagittal line that we have.

And have they done assessments of like how long you'd have to do head binding?

It's not head binding.

So this is sort of disease, or—

Yeah, it could be an anomaly. It could be some sort of a genetic thing. But like, look at what the dude would look like down there below. Like, what the fuck? Imagine meeting that guy and he's talking to you telepathically.

Hey, you never know. Yeah, might be thing sooner than you think.

I mean, that image right there, that skull, that is a real elongated skull that they found in Peru. That is not just the product of head binding. There's no way. It's too big. Like, head binding doesn't increase the capacity, it just flattens out the shape. That's a weird fucking head, man.

Oh, that makes sense. I know what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah. Unless it's some sort of disease, and I'm not an expert, that's really—

It certainly could be. It could be some sort of a Genetic anomaly, some sort of a mutation. Yeah, who knows? And a trait that was passed on. Like, there's those people that live in Africa that have like ostrich feet. Have you seen that?

No, I'm learning a lot.

Yeah, there's this weird group of people in Africa that have this very specific trait where they do not have 5 toes on each foot. Instead, they have these long, strange appendages that almost looks like, like 4 or 5 toes smashed together, but much longer.

Interesting.

And they call them like, I think they call them ostrich feet. It's very weird, but like it's in this one tribe and many people in this tribe have it.

Very rampant.

Yeah, show some images of that. It's fucking really strange. So you, you see that and you go, okay, well, that clearly is a genetic anomaly. Maybe the head thing is a genetic anomaly as well. I read that, right?

Yes.

Like, look at that. Ostrich-footed people of Zimbabwe.

Interesting.

Yeah, fucking strange, man. So look at the people down there. Look what they look like. Scroll. Yeah, how weird is that?

Wow.

So they have 2 big long things that are way longer than a toe, and they splay out, and that's what their toes are. And it's like this tribe, multiple people in this tribe have it.

I wonder if they've sequenced the genome of the— let's see if there's some sort of genetic abnormality.

Well, there certainly is, right? Because it seems like— are their fingers normal?

Because it's passed down.

No. No. So they've got the issue with their hands as well. They're missing.

Can't tell.

Yeah. No, it seems like that it's with their hands as well. Yes. Look at her left hand.

It's almost like an elephantiasis kind of look at Very fucking weird, whatever it is.

So you could imagine if that exists and exists with multiple people in this tribe, that a large head anomaly could exist as well. So, so you have the tall Grays, the small Grays, you have more than one version of reptilian?

From what I understand, yes. So I'm not an expert on that.

What have you heard?

I'll defer. Some look a little more humanoid. From what I understand. Once again, I'm hitting like the limit of my, you know, high-confidence knowledge.

More humanoid but still reptilian.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay.

And tall.

And tall.

7-foot-plus.

Big giant reptiles around the world.

Which I thought was so funny because, you know, that's like the schizo thing you hear out like in public, you know, the big reptiles, lizards. Turns out that that's kind of a thing, and I just— it's just strange. But once again, I personally have not seen any of that.

That is one of the weirder theories of ancient civilizations as well, that during the time of the dinosaurs, like, let's—

Yeah.

Let's imagine that human beings weren't the first intelligent creature. Let's imagine that there was an intelligent reptile and that this intelligent reptile had formulated a very complex society 100 million years ago. Like, why not? Like, if dinosaurs existed 100 million years ago, why not? some sort of a reptilian-type creature. Just, we have a tiny amount of fossils just from the amount of dinosaurs that existed.

That's right.

And if these things had some sort of sophisticated disposal of bodies, if they had burning rituals, or if, you know, if they never let their bodies just lay around and become fossils, we would never find them.

Exactly.

What's that called? Not saurian. It's like there's a, there's a, there's a theory about that that people have.

I'm not sure. It's outside my expertise.

It's a wacky theory because there's no evidence at all. It's just like, what if, you know, there was an intelligent race of reptiles that existed alongside dinosaurs? Yeah.

That might be a thing. And that's also, once again, going back to bioengineered. Is it sourced from Earth genomic stockpile?

Did they visit us from somewhere else and colonize this planet? Yeah.

I mean, they clearly have advanced technology, but I don't understand the origin.

But you're convinced that this is an actual phenomenon, that this isn't just a cover-up for some top-secret black ops programs?

No, I would know because I was in the position to know all that kind of stuff. Unlike Elon Musk, I actually had all those clearances. And, um, we can talk about Elon if you want, but Interesting guy. But the phenomenon is so old. We've been seeing the same objects for so long. It rules out any kind of, you know, modern Cold War technology. Now, have there been oops where people have seen our stuff? Yes. I won't get into that because that is a national security thing. And I'm, you know, that's— I'm very deferential to that. But there's clearly a genuine presence. The phenomenon's old. If you listen to the 1952 recording that Representative Burleson got declassified from MIT Lincoln Labs, you'll hear Edward Ruppelt, who eventually defected from Blue Book because he realized it was a cover-up in the '50s. But he talked— he was talking to the Beacon Hill study team at Lincoln Labs saying, hey, the Air Force has ruled out mass hysteria. We're seeing shit during, you know, nuclear sites, tests. Oh, by the way, in the White Sands Holloman Air Force Base area, we caught multiple objects traveling an estimated 3,500 miles an hour.

We can't rule out maybe some sort of meteor shower, but we're seeing a lot of weird shit moving at velocities that we don't know. And in the recording, it talks about like, we've ruled out, you know, foreign programs, et cetera. This is an internal recorded briefing. Between Lincoln Lab scientists and the Air Force that just got released in the recent tranche. And so that rules out a lot of human activity. And so the thought experiment or the kind of the path I lead people, it's like, okay, are UAP real? Well, of course, people have seen it, will be, you know, more inclined to saying yes. But if you look at the whole tapestry of information to include orbs that are accosting the federal government as we speak, and there's a whole task force looking at it right now between ODNI and Department of War, et cetera. And okay, so it's real. They're interacting with man. So you don't think the federal government at one point tried to acquire some empirical evidence? Of course they did.

Of course they did.

They recovered shit.

But it is—

Yeah. So it's like once you cross that Rubicon, you're like, well, that makes sense why crash retrievals could be a thing. You think the government just just passively studied it. Oh, we did a secret Blue Book and we were just like, you know, imaging stuff. No, no, baby, we're doing for material exploitation and acquisition. We're gonna go get some of this shit when we get a chance, when, you know, there's a mission failure or one crashes or lands for whatever other reason. So, uh, that's— once you accept that, it's like a whole new paradigm in your mind. Like, holy shit. And then all this crazy stuff we're talking about with Nordics and the beings It is wild, but it's true. Like, of course, if you're recovering an artifact, you're gonna get biological shit too. And that's, I think, the place where the public has a harder cognitive leap, where it's just so hard to conceptualize something you don't see day to day that's a living thing. It's like even more wild than finding some new animal in the Congo or some deep-sea creature in the bottom of the ocean. Like, we don't even know what's, you know, 70% of the ocean or something like that hasn't even been mapped.

Something like that. I don't know the exact—

It's more than that.

It might be more than that. And, you know, it, it's just shocking because it's just, it's, it's, but it's familiar at the same time. You know, a lot of it's bipedal and has the bilateral symmetry. And it's just like, what does this mean? Like, they're so similar. Are they organic life from another planet? Like, how would it evolve in such a similar way? Are these like von Neumann probes that are sent with occupants that are bioengineered? Because they know on this M-class planet, there's these Homo sapiens sapiens creatures. They look like this, this, and that. And they tweak a couple things, et cetera. So it's— I don't know all the answers to that. And I wish I did, because I'm sure the public, you know, has a, you know, a big desire to know that. But I think eventually, uh, through the president's courageous actions, it'll, it'll come So the intent of Project Blue Book was clearly to obfuscate. Yes. And you don't have to take my word for it. I talk about a formerly classified Australian Joint Intelligence Organization document that was classified secret in 1971, written by a gentleman called Harry Turner, who is the nuclear branch chief for the JIO, which is the Australian equivalent of the Defense Intelligence Agency, DIA.

And it's like page 8 or 7 through 18 of the document, which is in the Australian National Archives. The provenance is impeccable. Harry Turner had a top-secret clearance clearly and had contacts at CIA and in America. And if you read a summary, it's like, yeah, Blue Book was a facade. The Air Force was fucking really concerned about this. They wanted to figure out what was going on. Could they make use of whatever this technology is? And they created this plan of ridicule and disinformation, unfortunately, after the Robertson Panel in 1953 to dissuade the public from looking in on it because America was afraid of that being used as a false flag by the Soviets. And there was other kind of national security objectives. And that's publicly accessible. You can read it. And that was from the Australian government's perspective, what the cover-up was in 1971, looking back. from late '40s to present at the time. And that's essentially the thesis of Harry Turner. So of course, this is outside looking in, but he was very well informed. And he traveled to the US and talked to the CIA a lot. And so he stitched together the puzzle in his mind of what he thought was going on.

Well, it's also the statements of J. Allen Hynek, who left Project Blue Book and talked openly about his role during Project Blue Book, was to dismiss any and all sightings as being either some sort of a natural occurrence, like ball lightning or meteor showers or planet Venus, or, you know, just a misunderstanding. And that he believed, after all of his years in Project Blue Book, that there was a real phenomenon.

Exactly.

And then after he left Project Blue Book, he became a UFO researcher.

Yeah, a lot of it was Donald Keyhoe. There's a lot of, you know, James McDonald, Dr. James McDonald, and a lot of those OGs in this subject area that I only recently learned about because I haven't been following this until, you know, relatively recently realized it was real.

And what do you know about the Richard Nixon, Jackie Gleason story?

I don't know if that happened, but based on Nixon's personality, and he, he, he was knowledgeable on this topic, That might have happened. I don't know, but I could see Nixon doing that. So, well, it's a—

it's a fun one, and it's really particularly fun because Jackie Gleason built a UFO house.

Oh, did he? I did not know that.

You didn't know that one?

No.

Let me show you the house. The house is crazy. It was for sale for a while. We thought about buying it, but—

Where is it?

It's in upstate New York, I believe.

Oh, interesting.

Um, it is a very weird house. He built a house that looks like a flying saucer.

Interesting.

In the woods. And apparently, according to his ex-wife, he was obsessed with flying saucers. That's the inside, but show the outside. Yeah, no, no, the one down there. Yeah, yeah.

Jackie Gleason of all people too.

There's separate buildings that he had on the property, but it was like basically like a UFO-themed property. Like, what the hell's that, Jackie?

Interesting.

The fuck are you making? His whole house looked like UFOs. It's very strange.

Well, and with Nixon, there's the whole story with Robert Ebenegger and the promise of footage and all that. And from what I understand, the MacArthur Foundation was kind of the cutout for that between the White House and the filmmakers. And obviously, it didn't work out, but—

So they were thinking about disclosure as far back as the Nixon administration?

Yes. And I know of an assessment that was done for Nixon basically saying it's going to cause absolute fucking chaos. And it's interesting that assessment, right after that assessment, Watergate happened, which is kind of very convenient. And so I have some questions about that era as well, because it seemed like there was some movement with Nixon. I don't know the rationale or why Nixon wanted to do it, but it seemed like there was some energy. And that's what sucks is like, so Trump's finally the first president to like overtly say, I want all this shit out. And like other presidents have failed and he really has an opportunity. I mean, it's It's the same thing. I go back to the Hillary Clinton thing, right? So prior to the 2016 election, Hillary talked publicly, and this is public record, that if elected, she would release the UFO files. So what happened was, you know, John Podesta greenlit a— I'll call it acclimatization activity, a popularization activity. And, you know, that's why Tom DeLonge got his advisors. That's why General McCasland talked to him. It wasn't because General McCasland, Robert Weiss at Lockheed, other people— that's all in WikiLeaks— just wanted to talk to Tom because he was a rock star and was infatuated by his celebrity and wanted to help on a sci-fi movie.

It was because they were given top cover to see Tom as a public figure who had the touch of the youth, rightly or wrongly. I mean, once again, there was an attempt and I'm not going to judge them bad or good, but they were trying to prep the battlespace prior to 2016. Obviously, Hillary didn't win. Trump won, and clearly, that activity pivoted, and you saw kind of the collapse of the original TTSA efforts, in my opinion. That's what I believe happened. Now, the characters that were involved in that are happy to tell their side of the story. or more information, but from what I understand, they were trying to get Hillary— there was an inside job to prep the battlespace for Hillary. Jim Clapper and some other people that I know personally were providing some top cover, and that was going to be the thing. So the Clintons were trying to do it back in the day.

Don't you think that that's also just a political ploy to get people to want to vote for you?

Oh, certainly there's politics in that, and obviously even in this current situation, And, you know, the president can use this for political ends, ways, and means, whether making some threshold announcement for the upcoming midterms or by, you know, the 2028 election cycle. I mean, it could be used in political ways too. So, but it is a real topic and the government has real information on it though.

So.

Hmm. Okay.

So we've covered the Grays, the tall Grays, the little Grays, the reptilians, various forms, The Nordic-looking, Greek god-looking ones. Yeah.

And there's like a—

Isn't there like a mantis?

In terms of the humanoid ones, there's like different kind of from very human to clearly not human, but humanoid-ish. But like you said, I have heard— I'll call it water cooler talk within those channels of, like you said, some sort of insectoid. But I don't know anything about it, if that exists. I've heard, you know, like I said, water cooler talk about it. I'm open to that idea, clearly, because of all this other stuff. But I don't have any knowledge of that at any high confidence.

Is there any detailed description of the number of different types of entities and beings?

I mean, the program has that. I mean, I never had full access. No.

Did anybody ever discuss it? Like how many they think there are? Is it upwards of 10? Was it more? Is it 20?

No specific numericals. I only remember in passing, having those discussions. And of course, I was sitting in Senate chambers when that crazy meeting happened where I found out, you know, they wanted to physically hurt me. But some of those were brought up in passing, but there wasn't like a, here's the exact number and here's the whole, you know, organizational chart. I never got exposure like that. So I unfortunately don't have that level of confidence on how everything is.

So do you know what supposedly happened to those living reptilians from the crash?

Uh, deceased. They were killed.

They were killed? So we killed them?

Yeah.

Whoa.

They are mortal. So—

So how'd we kill them? Yeah.

Do we shoot them? Yeah.

We shot the reptilians?

Yeah.

Jesus. Yeah, that seems like a bad idea.

Yeah, I— that's—

Maybe we should like tell them to call your friends and come get picked up.

Well, it's the same thing as like if we force these craft down, is that the best thing we should be doing.

If we forced it down. But it sounds like they were in a war with the Grays.

Yeah.

Which is also, by the way, I realize, fucking kooky talk.

But it sounds crazy, but I swear to God, I was in the most sensitive—

Oh, I believe you.

Places in government where that discussion was happening with—

Listen, if it was real, if it was real, there's no way it doesn't sound kooky, even if it's real.

I know, I know. And even though I've I know what I know. I'm confident what I know. But just understanding this, like, new normal that is eventually gonna come out, it's just— it still hurts my head, honestly.

How could it not? So, um, why did they— do you know why they killed the reptilians instead of just telling them to call their homies?

They posed a threat.

They posed a threat?

Yeah.

Oh, so it was defending itself? Yeah, it was a giant reptile.

Yeah. So at some point that story will come out. I'm sure the people who were in some of those events will probably speak publicly at some point.

So it posed a threat, like it tried to attack the soldiers?

Yeah, it's— I'll let the people who were there tell their story.

Can you tell like a little bit of it?

So I mean, it's just to pose a threat and, you know, US personnel started, you know, getting hurt and dying. And so—

So US personnel was killed by these reptilians?

I know it's crazy, man, but—

What? Like, how many people were killed?

I don't know the exact numbers. And once again, I—

So it was like a fight?

Yeah, I hope—

Fight broke out.

Yeah, and I hope through this process some of those people are allowed to speak publicly about it so you could just hear it from the horse's mouth, not through me secondhand, you know.

Bro, boy, would I like to talk to someone who shot a reptile.

You never know, you may.

Imagine talking to some guy who shot a 7-foot reptilian. I mean, you think you want to talk to the guy who killed bin Laden? That's interesting. Talk to the guy who killed the fucking 7-foot reptilian that tried to kill people. Yeah, or was killing soldiers.

I know. Sounds pretty crazy.

So goofy though. I know. While you're saying it, it sounds like this is— and this is one of the reasons why people don't like to talk about it, because it makes you look like a fool.

Think about me, like, I was a very serious intel officer. I had access to the most sensitive stuff, like covert— I was working on covert action activities, all this, and then all of a sudden And I'm inundated with this ecosystem, and I'm having to explain this, you know, to members of Congress, you know, my classified testimony. And it's just like, I sound like a fucking crazy person.

Yeah.

But once again, it's true. And I know who I talked to. I know what I saw. And I, you know, I clearly have some inkling of what's going on behind the scenes. And this is a real reality, man. It's— I hope people look back at this interview and are like, yeah, Dave was fucking really putting his ass on the line.

Listen, it sounds strange, but it's not nearly as strange as the universe itself. The universe itself is beyond strange. The infinite nature of it, the fact that there's stellar nurseries and black holes, like, that's—

Like, what's dark matter? Nobody really— there's no consensus on that. There's WIMPs and all these other theories.

Yeah, the whole idea of the universe is fucking fucking kooky as shit. And so these beings, this is a very minor level of kooky in comparison to what we know.

Well, when you think about it, you look at all the credible military witnesses that have had encounters at nuclear sites. I mean, you even look at the Mario Woods and Michael Johnson case up at Ellsworth Air Force Base in the '70s that Jesse Michaels just did an episode on. And it's like, think about those military personnel. Like, you saw the emotion in their face talking about Like, I can't believe I'm talking about a gray pushing some sort of probe in me. And it's like, they're even more uncomfortable than myself because they are claiming that they experienced that. And you look at Robert Hastings' book, UFOs and Nukes, and all the different encounters military personnel have had— sober, trained observers that are not drunk on duty, they're not high. And, um, and I've had unbelievable high-level serious people in and out of government privately pull me aside and tell me about their personal experiences. And like, Dave, you're the only person I can tell. I can only tell my wife because I had this thing. This happened. This happened. I thought I was losing my mind, but this really happened. And it was— and it's, it's, I think, a lot— a bigger part of the populace, I think, has had experiences than statistics would tell you just because of the stigmatization of the topic, you know.

Well, yeah, I mean, I don't know very many people that have had encounters, But all of them are very reluctant to talk about it.

Oh, yes, and—

Especially people with like credible jobs.

Yeah, and it's the same thing. Like there's a lot of people behind the scenes that are very credible supporting me, talking to people behind the scenes to bolster my efforts, and they're like, Dave, I could never be public like you. And so I'm like, trust me, I don't want to do this either. Like I'd like to go back to work in the executive branch, put my uniform back on, and go kill terrorists. I used to hunt warlords. Like, I did a lot of crazy shit. I used to do hostage rescue, do the overwatch for that with certain JSOC elements. I've had a— I've done a lot of serious crazy shit in my career. Unfortunately, a lot of it was traumatizing and, you know, got PTSD from it. But, um, yeah, it's just a lot of people still, even at where we are right now in the movie, so to speak, where we're on the threshold of possibly President Trump succeeding and his team getting this information out there if they can broker a way ahead with the elements— I'll call it the deep state— that are holding on and it seems crazy like, well, but couldn't the White House just break down the door?

Like why is there pushback, all that? Well, you think about like MKUltra and how Richard Helms told Sidney Gottlieb to destroy the records and the only reason why we know of MKUltra is Seymour Hersh. Bush, right? The New York Times story. There was a leak to the Times. Then Frank Church and other people got information from whistleblowers, and then they found the financial records that weren't destroyed in 1973 through '75, and also what they call the— what's it called? Family jewels, crown jewels, where CIA Director Schlesinger wrote down like all the bad stuff the CIA was doing that like, you know, we got to make sure this stuff doesn't come out. And then there was like a 1960 '74-ish CIA Inspector General report that was classified and clearly wasn't given to Congress. And that's the only reason we know about MKUltra. It was reluctantly, there was an oopsies, you know, and part of this went public. And so I guess there's some historical parallels to my journey and stuff on this issue. But, and once again, MKUltra, like they had to drag CIA to Congress. They found all this other bad stuff, the heart attack gun.

Mm-hmm.

All the stuff in the Church Committee hearings and, you know, the—

Operation Midnight Climax.

Then there was, um, what's a funny name? I'm gonna laugh about that one.

That's the brothels.

What was it? Oh, well, yeah, they're very helpful.

Acid.

Well, and then, um, you just saw there was a story coming out where they like sprayed the city of San Francisco in 1976. That was just out in SF Gate a couple days ago.

See how they could spread disease. Yeah.

And then, and then you had Mockingbird where they had people on the payroll role. And it's like, okay, that's kind of ethically dubious because it's domestic, but it's influenced foreign powers. Okay, Smith-Mundt Act, a 1948 violation, sort of, you know, on and on and on.

But I think what people really have a hard time comprehending is that if this is real, and if we have been visited, why doesn't everyone know about it already? Why haven't they made themselves known?

Why don't we? Why?

And then there's also this Weird thing, if anybody that's actually experienced it, like if you have a novel experience, if you are going through a, you know, you're going through a national park in Utah and there's no one out there, and then all of a sudden some disc shows up, hovers over you, lands, some strange creatures, you know, come out of it, talk to you telepathically, get back in the disc and take off.

Then you have the whole missing 411 stuff though out there.

Oh yeah, I had that guy on too.

Clothes are folded. I don't know the answer. sort of that. And I think, so why isn't this more pervasive? I would say it's reasonably pervasive, but we see these craft using cover, concealment, deception techniques such as signature management, right? Like, think of the Klingon bird-of-prey cloaking, right?

Wow.

We, we have seen that. And, and so they're, they're masking their signature, but like, as Jacques Vallée will say, there's some sort of control system. It's like a show and display thing. It's a stimulus for a lot of this. And then also, Why don't they overtly interact? That gets into like the exopolitique of this. I certainly am not conversant in that yet. I hope to learn more as the public, to learn more about the objectives, why they're here, why there hasn't been overt contact, but clearly interactions with, you know, the secular nation-state governments. And well, what's the arrangement? I don't know the answer to that. And, and so there's— Or is it like the Prime Directive in Star Trek, right? Where they're, oh, they're pre-warp civilization. We observe, we're interested here, we're studying the planet, but we're not gonna overtly influence their development, 'cause that's unethical according to our standards of behavior and norms and rules of engagement, you know, like it is in Star Trek, for example.

Well, also just to avoid any sort of unbelievably catastrophic just upheaval of society, you would do it very slowly, like it's being done. Like today, the way it's being discussed is very different than the way it was being discussed 20 years ago, right? So 20 years ago was 2016, we hadn't had— or 10 years ago was 2016, we hadn't had the New York Times story yet. The New York Times story is 2017. That changed everything, I think. 10 years before that, you talked about this stuff, you were a fucking idiot and a kook.

This is a cottage industry, and I also, going back to kind of the pattern of lifing this, to speak. I think the nature of the interaction was more overt in antiquity. So something changed at some point in human history where, going back to Greek gods and the Anunnaki, whatever ends up being true, we'll find out, I guess, in this process. That seems more overt, like mass kind of interactions.

But then— Well, I'm sure you've seen those ancient paintings. That it looks like a guy sitting in a craft that has fire behind it, and he's flying through the sky?

Yeah.

Like, what the fuck is that?

Yeah, I'm not full Chariots of the Gods or whatever, that book, but like, I think there's probably a happy medium that ends up being accurate. And but it looks like the nature of the interaction— does that mean a different group of intelligence?

Right. And how many of them are there?

And the group changed and went away, and there's like this new generation. I don't know the answer to that, but it does seem if you pattern a life, it But the nature of their show and display, their concealment deception, their force presentation, so to speak, you know, to use kind of military talk, has changed. And clearly, they're less likely to do anything major, negative or positive, I guess, for whatever reason.

Right. Is there a consensus as to their origin? Because I know that— or is it— do they vary wildly? Like there's a— like Tim Burchett has talked about the ocean.

There is, yes. We know a lot about that.

What do we know about that?

Well, I'm going to be careful because it gets into sensitive Navy underwater things. There's clearly some sort of base of operations in certain locations. It's large. Don't know when it got there. So it's—

It's large.

Large. Like multiple city blocks type stuff.

Yeah. So there's multiple city blocks somewhere in the bottom of the ocean.

And it's like, yeah.

Do you know about the Baltic Sea anomaly?

Well, yeah, yeah, there's, there's some interesting stuff there. And once again, I will allow— that looks like federal government to deal with that one in our allies and adversaries.

Okay. Yeah, but you did say that there's multiple city blocks under the ocean.

Yeah, I will tell you, underwater people I know that come from that community, they're always like, you know the movie The Abyss, Dave? It's kind of a docudrama. And I'm like, holy fuck, you know, that movie, you know, with Ed Harris back in '89. And so that kind of gives you a sense in a pop sci kind of way for people to visualize there is large shit down there. And it's like the origin is indeterminate. I'm sure we know a little bit more. I'm not privy to that. And the way we know things and track that, that gets into sensitive national security stuff. And, you know, the government may have to reveal some of that through some sort of acknowledgment strategy.

The way it's been described to you, are these large city blocks or whatever the hell it is under the ocean? Is this a waypoint? Is this a stopoff?

It looks like a base.

A fort, a base?

Stuff comes and goes.

Okay.

Yeah.

So this is like where they observe and— Yeah.

I'm sure we've done a behavioral analysis on it and we probably figured out maybe the mission or whatever you want to call it. I don't know the answer to that. I'm as curious as anybody, honestly.

One thing I wanted to talk to you about because it just recently started hitting the news or Twitter at least. Someone sent it to me. This guy Matthew Brown saying that you tricked him in a psyop into revealing that there's— you turned him into a whistleblower. Do you know this story?

Oh my God. I didn't even know Matt Brown until right before the 2024 hearing. I never met the guy while I was a—

I sent it to you, Jamie. I had to bring it up to you because a bunch of people—

Yeah, there's like some—

Make sure you ask him about this.

Oh, because I was at the Shriver war game, high-level cell advisor, that I somehow made fake stuff. And the briefing that Matt says he saw, I've never seen. I can't evaluate the contents of that. And I didn't make anything. I've never made a hazing brief on this topic. I made some fun briefs just to fuck with some of my airmen back in the day, some Star Trek related stuff, and just for, you know—

But you're aware of this, right? So what is he alleging?

He alleges inadvertent exposure. He was cleaning up the file system on a classified system. And I think it was like 2018 or something like that. you know, he found this briefing. Once again, I met Matt or talked to him for the first time in like 2024, well after I left the intelligence community. So I didn't even know he existed. And unfortunately, I've never seen a briefing like that. So I can't evaluate the contents. So—

Have you communicated with him after he said this?

Oh, oh, sure. Sure. Yeah. I mean, just in support, making sure he has resources.

No, but I mean, after he said that you psyoptim. Have you communicated with him since then? Oh, he said that? Isn't that what it says?

I think that might have been people saying that.

Yeah, other people saying? Okay.

In other words, it's news to me.

So what it is is other people alleging that that's how it went down.

Yeah, there's a lot of theories online about like myself and, oh, I'm being handled. Dude, it's just me. It's sad. It's just me and like my bros and like there's higher-up people like helping. But unfortunately, like, nobody's telling me to do X, Y, and Z. And obviously, if the president wants me officially involved, I'm happy. But like, you know, I'm just a dude, you know, doing what I need to do, right? So yeah.

What other weirdness of it— before we wrap this up, what other weirdness of it do you think people don't know about?

Hmm. You know, I think there's something to synchronicity. And I don't have an answer why that happens. It just seems like weird things just like happen or work out. And this is about as woo as I get. And I just look at my own personal journey. You know, I was in like the right place at the right time and so many instances in my career to learn certain things that would help me later and like, you know, met certain people at the right time. And of course, you know, there's like a analytical bias most humans have where they're ascribing meaning to certain interactions that are actually truly random, statistically random.

Right.

But I've talked to enough people that say the same thing, and I just— there's something going— there's a— there's like a hidden hand part of the phenomenon that I can't— it's like a certain je ne sais quoi I can't like point my finger on that I think is really interesting too. But that's about as woo as I get.

I don't know. Do you think that is the nature of the fabric of the universe, or do you think that this has something to do with extraterrestrial intervention?

Well, I think that's almost like going back to remote viewing, because the Stargate program, Grill Flame, all the different names it had, that was adjacent to the program. Why do you think we were doing the psychic spying program besides competing with the Soviets and Chinese on the same topic? It's because that's the key unlock to some of the technology, potentially. If you could figure out how to— it's what they call it, like BCI, brain-computer interface. But clearly, there's some sort of organic to tech interface, and it's clearly consciousness-based. Not to digress on your—

No, but this is what Lazar said as well, that there was no instruments and that these things controlled this with their mind.

It depends on the class of vehicle, and like, there's like really weird shit that we have no idea how it works, to like, oh, that kind of looks familiar.

What's the weirdest of the really weird shit?

Um, I mean, you just have like the egg and stuff. They're like usually unmanned, usually. And it's like, is this like a probe? It's just, it's like a fucking egg, you know? Like, and, um, I know Jake Barber has talked about publicly recovering them, you know? And, uh, you know, I heard, I, you know, heard about that elsewhere, people who were dealing with that. It's just kind of weird. It's like this amorphous thing. It's like the movie like Arrival, right? You—

Right. That's a great movie.

Is the Yeah. Is the technology like embedded in the skin? Like what is going on here? There's like no obvious control surfaces. Like what's going on?

Right. Right. What kind of timeline do you think we're looking at in terms of like really changing the world?

I think the basic affirmation, the threshold disclosure, you know, call it we're not alone, we have stuff kind of thing, it has to happen before Trump leaves because I don't trust another president to follow through on the president's directive because, you know, it's the next administration can be like, we're peeling that back, baby. We're not touching this again.

Of course.

So I think he has to do it before he leaves office. And if I were advising the president and if the team is listening, I would do it at least 6 months before the election just so there's some sort of recovery period and kind of— and whatnot. I'm just a dude. Obviously, I want it as soon as possible, like most Americans listening to this.

How do you envision that something like that would take place? Would they have a broadcast? Would they show video and explain?

That was a plan at one point for a previous administration, is they were gonna have like one of those like government—

Was this the Bush administration with the Hal Puthoff days?

No, this was HW.

Oh.

Yeah. And so I I'm sure the video sucked. It probably had some synthwave government film from like the 1989, like, doo doo doo, you know? And it was probably gonna be horrible and dry, but there was gonna be this like audiovisual kind of a companion to some sort of announcements. Now, I don't know all the specific details after that. Clearly, there has to be a physical rollout for all of this stuff.

God, I hope that video exists. It's out there in the archives somewhere. We could watch it after disclosure.

I know, we need to have like a throwback. Like, what, you know, see the old shit.

Well, if you think about like how long it's been that people have like slowly become more and more aware of this, it seems like a long time, but our lives are very short.

Yeah.

And the reality is, if this thing, this phenomenon has coexisted with human beings and guided us, aided us in some way—

And that's why I don't think people should be too fearful. I mean, obviously there's There's a yin and yang in the universe. There's malevolent, benevolent. But clearly there's some homeostasis going on right now. And there's been this— call it cohabitation for the lack of a better way to describe it. And clearly nothing crazy has happened.

Do you think that some of this is in conjunction with AI becoming sentient and that this was a part of the process?

I don't know that to be a fact. However, like I said earlier in the interview, I am I'm fearful that AI is gonna figure some of this shit out, whether it be technology stuff.

Yeah.

Or the fact that we're not alone, just by looking at all the disparate databases and correlating data, especially if it gets connected to any sort of genetic record, medical records, sensing system. And I think that's a real threat that if I were to advise the White House, they need to think about that, like, third-party unexpected disclosure pathway that superintelligent artificial superintelligence provides both from a technology risk perspective, but also revealing some of this too. And once again, you know, that artificial silicon-based AI is like, is that the infrastructure that we need to communicate to some of this organic intelligence too? Because it's able to learn and figure out modalities of communication. I don't know. So it's pretty crazy.

Okay. It's a lot to absorb, Dave.

I know.

Thank you very much for being here, man.

I appreciate it.

It's always great to talk to you, and thank you for all your hard work in exposing all this stuff. I mean, I really wonder, like, if it wasn't for you doing all this, how much would we know?

I don't know, man. I just— I hope this is the last time I gotta send it on, on an interview. And it's been tough, really tough. Like, it's been debilitating. I've gone through a lot, you know. I've been in danger, and I've done a lot of stuff for this country over the years, but I'm honored to be that guy, I guess, and risk it all to, you know, unveil this truth because it really was a core secret of the United States.

So I certainly think it moves the needle.

Yeah, I appreciate it.

Thank you.

All right.

Bye, everybody.