Transcript of #2426 - Cameron Hanes & Adam Greentree

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Hey, gentlemen. What's happening?

What is going on?

Good to see you guys again.

Bow hunting brothers.

Yeah, we're just talking about the mountain lion that we have in the lobby and how insane that thing is. So, Adam, you shot that mountain lion when?

I think it was about six or seven years ago now.

And you ate it. And I ate some of it. You sent some to me. It's really good. Believe it or not, ladies and gentlemen.

You wouldn't think so, but it's incredible.

Everybody says it's like. They. The way they describe is like a. I think Renell said this a superior pork.

Yeah, yeah. It's like, I. I think of it as a cross between venison and chicken. And then. And I only did it quick on the barbecue, and I'm not a great cook, but it was that tender and that tasty.

But the. The story behind the mountain lion's nuts, like, that was a. Like a murderous mountain lion.

It was. I felt a bit funny about it to start with because, like, the dogs do all the hunting, right? The dogs smell it. Dogs find it. They put it up in a tree. But the further I looked into it, I'm like, well, you need the tree because you want to sex it, and you want to age it. You know, you want to make sure it's a lion that's, you know, old, and it has to be a male to shoot it in Colorado, at least at the time, you had to, anyway, so. So it was actually the perfect way to hunt. But then seeing how destructive that individual line was, at least I was telling Cam about this when we got here, that it must have grabbed the cow like a beef cow. Must have grabbed it on the neck, and the cow couldn't move, you know, but it was still fully alive internally and vocally, it was still alive. And when we got there, the mountain lion was, like, eating it from its rear in. And had been there for at least an hour or two because there was quite a lot of meat that had been eaten out from the cow's ass and kicking its hooves.

Yeah.

And it just. But the cow couldn't get up, so it was. It was literally eating it while it was still alive. And as the dogs were running down there, you could hear this cow off in the distance just, like, screaming, like, mooing, flat out, and you could tell something was wrong. The dogs got there, the line ran off. We end up Calling the rancher in. The rancher come out, put the cow out of its misery. Still screaming on the ground right in front of me. I was. Hey, I was teared up, like, you know, like, I don't like suffering like the next person. So it was a very horrible moment. So then it was like, now I'm into it. Like, now I'm into finding this lion.

It's like a werewolf's loose in your town. You know, having a. That. How much did that cat weigh, by the way?

I. By the way, I held it up for size, and I could hold it for maybe 30 seconds, and I literally couldn't hold it up anymore. And I was trying to show the size of, you know, how big that line was.

It looks like it's at least 150 pounds.

It's giant, so it's like 170.

That's what you think it would be on the. On the paw, I guess, as it were.

Yeah, yeah. Live.

Yeah.

That's a big animal.

We were standing out in front of it, like, going, imagine if this thing jumped on you.

It's a living monster.

It is a monster. It's a real monster. And he's like, oh, they kill their animal, their prey first. No, they don't. Just make sure it doesn't move anymore.

Yeah, just whatever's good for eating.

Paralyzed, they'll just start eating it.

Whatever's good for eating, it's on.

We're the only thing that has compassion in the wild, you know, like the putting out of the misery, like the rancher did. You know, that's one thing about hunters, ranchers. We do appreciate life and death. And there is a time where, hey, let's put out of its misery. But it's. Yeah, it's. Man is the only one who thinks about that. An animal they'll just start eating, they could care less about. They don't even know about pain, really, or being merciful or anything like that. It's just what we do.

Yeah. I always say, like, the line in Africa, like, it stripes a zebra across the back end, and the zebra gets away, and it's just got, like, blood pouring out of it, and it's got this horrible wound that it's going to have to live with. That lion has not lost any sleep over that ever in its life. It's not even a thought.

You know, it's just fascinating that all these different creatures exist with us because we're so insulated for the most part. Like most people are so insulated. Living in cities, traveling on busses and planes and cars and never, never seeing a thing like this in real life. And you realize, like, at the same time, while you're going to Starbucks and, you know, you're. You're picking out the new iPhone, there's a lion running full speed at a herd of zebras right now. Like, right now in the world, there's a lion full speed at the zebra, and it's gonna tackle it. It's gonna grab it by its face. And all these animals exist to keep each other in check. That's the real beauty of nature. And you really see it. When we saw that we were out yesterday, Cam and I were. We were hunting for pigs, and we saw a feral cat make a pounce on a mouse. Like, we were in the Perfect. It was one of the things.

Yeah.

Because even though, like, it's a kitty cat, like a little tiny kitty cat, it was fluffy too. It's kind of cute. We watched a predator in the rare moment when you see him executing a kill. I mean, it was only a feral cat, but it was still. We saw. We saw his little butt wiggle. We saw that thing that they do with a dang. And then up in the air, like, that is cool. It was so wild.

And that's going on multiple places throughout. On our planet right now, you know, Right now, as you said.

Everywhere.

Yeah. Like, if you could have, like, zoom in on a little camera. All these little.

Yeah.

Interactions of predator, prey, or. I mean, that's happening.

Well, if you could see it all at once. Like, if there was a camera on every single predator, prey encounter simultaneously in the world, and it was broadcast on a screen that was like 700ft high. You think, oh, my God, we're at war. There's a war in the natural world.

It's a constant war planet.

Just cats alone. Have you ever seen the numbers of what feral cats alone just house cats kill. It's literally in the billions in North America. Billions every year, nonstop. But imagine how many rats there would be if the cats weren't out there.

Oh, yeah.

Like, it's all. There's a balance to it all. Oh, my God. These cats are killing everything. Right. Imagine how many fucking mice would be out there if there weren't cats.

Yeah, that's true.

It's all balanced.

Yeah. That to Adam's point about his lion in Colorado, it's so managed that that that animal actually probably could have been killed off, like, because it was killing livestock, you know? But when you kill an lion in Colorado, it's very detailed, very documented, and Tracked. It's like you can only take. Like in the unit. I was hunting lion. I didn't kill one. But you could only kill 35 in the year. And every time a lion comes in, they. They catalog it, check it, get it, you know, all the information in there. And then that's one of the 35. Once you reach 35 quota, you're done.

You're done.

Let's put this in perspective, because if that doesn't happen, and by the way, all that money goes back to the state, goes to game wardens. It helps everybody. It helps conservation. If you don't have that, you know what you have, you have what's going on in Japan, where Japan is having massive brown bear attacks. So just last year they had a kill. I think it was 1,000. It's at least 1,000. I think it was more than 1,000 bears last year.

Right.

And this year is projected to be even higher than last year. So the bears at the fucking military has to go in and they're having a war on giant brown bears that.

Are killing I don't know how many people already this year.

A shit ton.

Yeah, a shit ton.

Jamie put that into Perplexity, our sponsor. How many people have been killed in Japan by grizzly bears or. Well, they're not grizzly bears, but they're essentially.

Brown bear.

Yeah, brown bear. Record surge of brown bear attacks in 2025 with at least 13 fatalities and over 200 injuries. Holy fuck. Making it the deadliest year for bear attacks in recent history. Majority of fatal attacks have occurred in Hokkaido. Hokkaido, where brown bears are more prevalent. And the number of attacks has prompted emergency responses, including the deployment of military personne in some regions. Dude, I've been hearing people in Montana and people in Wyoming that have been saying we're seeing more brown bears than ever before. Guys are going on elk hunts and getting freaked out and like, they have to delist these things. Like, they are totally fearless. They have. They've never been hunted, so they have no fear of humans. How many guys have you heard where the gun goes off and the bear shows up after the gun goes off because it knows that the elk is down or the moose is down.

Like a dinner bell.

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I flew into Hikaido, Japan, had a period where they would let foreigners hunt and it had to be of a bow. And I was chasing seeker stags over there and I had no idea they had a brown bear at all. And I was going through this big reedy area, like you know, the reeds are up above your head and there was just a game trail going in there like that the deer had been using. And as I was going through there, I could see that it would, it was starting to open up a little bit more like a flattened out section, maybe like a, where the deer had been bedded. And I got in there and there was a seeker deer, just like the rib cage all chewed out and it was just a big muddy clearing where this brown bear had got in there and just like rolled around with this carcass. But the prints in the mud were like that. I had no idea. Like I had no idea there was even bears there.

So what year is this?

It'd have to be 10 or 11 years ago now.

But Google is still around, right? Yeah. You didn't check, you didn't go, hey, what's in the area?

Started messaging the outfitter and being like, dude, there's bears here.

Look at that bear.

Yeah. And then he, he started telling me that it's some of the biggest brown bears there is.

Bro, that bear up that guy.

That's a big, that's A big bear.

Yeah.

But the police force, because I believe there was an unarmed police force at the time. They had an issue with a bear where it had killed two hunters there. And he had to go in and shoot this bear. He had photos on a tractor, and I don't do the gruesome photos, but he's just flicking through his phone. And the next photo is a guy with his face missing from this brown bear attack. And another photo, the bear, when they. When he went in to shoot the bear, the bear was in a stream holding the guy down in the water, eating him in the water.

Oh.

And it like, so, yeah, pretty gruesome. So it's pretty full on. But up until that point, I'd never even knew there was a brown bear in Japan.

Bro, before you go someplace with a bow that makes sense, do a cursory Internet search.

Like, come on, you guys have the Internet.

Shut the up. You were telling me you saw the Starlink things going by.

They're way. They're way behind in Australia.

Talk about that one.

Come on.

They just got the Internet.

This guy is a traveling bow hunter, and he doesn't check to see if there's enormous monsters of the unknown. Oh, that's cute. That's cute. Look, there's plenty of unknown out there. You know, you don't need to add to it.

It's all disappearing. All unknowns disappear because of the Internet a little bit.

Another layer to that Japan story is the reason why they have to deploy the military is because all the hunters are aging out. So there was hunters there, but because hunting is kind of like this dying thing for this next generation. There's not enough hunters. So they have to get the military involved. Otherwise it would be hunters like, you know, you going over there and they've talked about, like, I mean, I know there's Americans who had volunteered to do it, but that's another part of it, is this next generation just isn't hunting.

I have another question. Jamie, put this into perplexity, please. How many mountain lions were killed with depredation tags in 2024 in California, because what I had read on a forum. So it has to be correct because those guys are all experts.

Oh, yeah.

I had read that an equal number of mountain lions had been killed with depredation tags by, like, experts with dogs, like to bring them in than if they gave them tags out. So if they had given tags out and let people mountain lion hunt, you would have the exact same amount of mountain lions that they had to kill. And instead of that you would have revenue.

Yeah, Money going the opposite.

Right.

Instead of paying and the collection of the meat.

Obviously, California's not yet published a full 2025 total, but the best available data as of July 2025 shows at least 167 mountain lions reported taken under depredation permits in 2020 and 166 in 2022, with annual totals of over 100 in recent years. So every year they have to kill. Kill at least 100 mountain lions. Yeah, probably quite a bit more. It looks like 67 more. 66 more.

And I would say it's only went up since then.

Yeah, well, the thing is, like, they're doing nothing to curb the population. And this is the thing is like, people go, o, it's okay, let nature do its thing. No, it doesn't do its thing. It kills your dog. Okay. One of the things they found out in San Francisco, in the Bay Area, was when they do shoot these mountain lions, they've done an analysis of their diet. It's 50% dogs and cats.

Wow.

50% of their diet is eaten people's pets. So they're hunting people's pets. That means you are, if you're a dog lover, you're allowing a monster to eat your dog because you think that's the right thing to do and to be kind with nature. He no, you have to hunt them. You have to get them the fuck away from you and keep a healthy population of them. And if you don't do that, it comes back to bite you in the dick.

Here's, here's one other search, Jamie, can you see how many mountain lions were taken in Oregon legally? Because that would be like Oregon's, of course, just right north of California. Let's compare the legal harvest. In a state that hunt, we can't use dogs, but you can kill them when you see them. You can buy a tag in the season.

Well, then it's very difficult to kill them. Right.

If you can't use dogs to do that, they have to have the season open all year and they just hope enough are getting killed, but then they still have to kill, deprivate, depredation.

And is that a situation where you, you buy like a mountain lion tag, like just an extra tag and you just have it just in case you run into one. So if you're out in the wilderness and you're hunting elk, but you have a mountain lion tag.

Yeah, that's it. So we were hoping, you know, if you see one, basically, I have a bear tag, lion tag, deer and elk.

It says Oregon kills far more cougars each year than California. But those Oregon numbers can come mainly from sport hunting and agency control, not from depredation tags. Oh, wait a minute. Agency control is what we're looking at, not depredation. So what is the numbers here? 160.

Reword the question.

Yeah, let's reword the question and ask how many were killed in California from agency control. Put that in there. How many mountain lions were killed in California through agency control? Because we were just looking at depredation tags which is like what a hunter or excuse me, a farmer gets.

So it says in Oregon that we could kill 970 but that they never kill that many.

Okay. They did not publish a queen state white tally labeled specifically as agency control mountain lion kills and current official tables group most lethal removals under depredation permits rather than separate agency control category. As a result, there's no single publicly available number that states how many mountain lions were killed through agency control alone. Let's just put this in. How many mountain lions were killed in California in 2024? Just period. Let's just ask that question. Yeah, I don't even know where we'd get this data.

I don't know. It'd have to be fishing game. 20.

That doesn't make any sense. Oh, so they're saying these fig. This figure does not include deaths from vehicle to. But that's not true because they just said earlier that it was 100 and 480 depredation incidents and 222 depredation permits. Out of those permits, 52 authorized lethal take and 20 mountain lions were actually reported as lethally taken on depredation permits. That's weird. This is totally different numbers than it was given us before. So now it's only saying it was 52 authorized lethal ones.

Yeah.

Huh. I don't know.

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Okay. It says of the permits, 52 were authorized to kill them. So it says lethal take. So it's authorized to kill them. And 20 were actually reported as lethally killed. So they're saying it's only 20. That seems so.

But that is. That's for, like, a ranch owner to do the killing.

Okay.

So they. They say, hey, this lion's been killing my calves 480 times. And 222 of those, they said, okay, go ahead and kill the lion.

Okay.

Right.

So this is permits that were released rather than the agency doing the depredation work.

Right. So you would add this total to the other number we had.

Right, because depredation thing, too, you got to think it's ranchers. Right. So these guys are all out in the middle of nowhere. A lot of the depredations, though, that they might be listing is what we were talking about with San Francisco, where they found that they're eating people's cats and dogs. So maybe they get depredations. It's not like. But you can't give it out to the fucking homeowner.

No.

Yeah. So you only give those tags out to ranchers, it seems like.

Yeah, the people that have livestock and.

The rest of the depredation is probably done by some sort of a government guy.

Yeah, they would call it. They would call it something other than depredation.

Do you think he uses dogs? How do you think they get him?

Yeah, or snare. Like in Oregon, Wayne has done this, where people. They're losing their goats, their calves, something like sheep, something like that. And then they'll let you snare it. So you can go in there, you take pictures of the animals that are killed. And another snare is brutal.

Yeah.

Or trap.

Trap.

It's a foothold. Yeah.

In Texas, they treat them like coyotes.

Yeah.

You just whack them. Yeah, well, I think that's the way to go because I think they're so hard to see. It's just so hard to find different politics.

I've seen maybe two in all the hunting that I've done, just naturally in the wild. And you would have seen more, but it's not a big number. They're out there, but they're just so sneaky, right?

Oh, they're so sneaky. We saw one. I told you the story. We saw the one in Utah with Colton.

Yeah.

Huge one like that one. He was like as big as yours. It was fucking terrifying. Inside of a car 30 yards away and I'm shit my pants.

Yeah.

I'm not even.

Yeah.

And we're armed, you know, and we have bows. We have.

You know, the difference between Oregon and California and Texas, you know, Texas being able to shoot them like coyotes is. That's politics, you know. Yeah, of course. The west coast is liberal.

Well, Utah changed it though. Utah has it now. Like coyotes.

Perfect.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's how it should.

I think there has to be like management behind it.

I don't even know if you have to have a tag in Utah anymore. Let's find that out. Put that search in. Do you need a tag to get to hunt mountain lion in Utah? Maybe they just give out over the counter tags, anybody who wants them and they're still collecting revenue, which is ideal. That's the best way to do it.

Yeah.

And if the numbers are great enough. Yeah, yeah.

But Texas doesn't even do that. They go, no, we don't want to get involved. Just you go ahead and shoot them and it's a fucking monster in your backyard.

Yeah.

This is coming from someone who loves them. Yeah, I love them.

I love them.

They're amazing. Okay. Yes, you must have a valid Utah hunting or combination hunting fishing license to hunt mountain lions. But you do not need a separate cougar tag. Okay. So it is like a coyote.

So it's year round harvest for licensed hunters. And you just have to get it checked in after you kill.

Right. Which is also smart.

Yeah.

Because they want to know what it's been eating.

That's how you do it.

That's what I've done with.

That's how you do it. Utah, way to go.

Good job.

That's the right way to do it. And of course you should have a hunting license.

Yeah.

I think you have to have one in Texas as well to hunt anything.

This, talking about this this actually that's not true.

Right, what now I'm thinking that. No, I think in Texas you don't even need a hunting license to hunt exotics.

No, not if they're on a private. Right.

I think you just go hunt them.

Yeah, yeah, right.

Okay.

Talking about politics in different areas. It reminds me of in B.C. they outlawed grizzly hunting. And just, just recently, maybe last week, you know, a grizzly attacked a school group. That's another thing. So where in the cities who control a lot of the voting power of the. That's a province, but states here is the city's determinant. And people living in the cities don't know what the going on in the wilderness. So they vote. Oh, I love lions. I love grizzly bear. I love wolves. We need to have more of them. Meanwhile, the people out in the mountains are actually dealing with this shit. And so Vancouver, you know, if we're talking bc, specifically Vancouver pretty much makes the decisions for. For British Columbia. They said no more grizzly hunting and now it's just, you know, grizzly bear out of control.

Did you ever meet my friend Mike Hawkridge?

Yeah, we went to dinner at. After a fight once.

That's right. One of the steakhouses in Vegas.

Right.

Mike's great. And he and Ben o' Brien took me on a moose hunt once and he was telling me that this was before the grizzly bear band. He was like, there's so many of them. And he had to shoot one from six feet away. One was breaking into a cabin and he had to shoot it from six feet away. Like they're terrifying up there. Yeah, they have so many of them and they have wolves everywhere. We stumbled on a wolf kill. We got there, you know, it was probably a day old, I don't know. But it was nothing but hair. That was the thing that shocked me.

Did it use the moose calf? Okay.

And it was. There was nothing but hair. That was what was weird. It's like I didn't anticipate seeing so much hair. Like the moose hair was everywhere, just everywhere. I thought it'd be like a dead animal, but it was just basically bones and there was like a tiny bit of meat on, you know, corners of the bones and hair everywhere. Yeah, it was just like they were like just tearing into this moose cap and coughing up hair. Yeah, I didn't see one when I was up there. Although I think we did see one in the distance when we're at John and Jen's place. We saw one. We thought it was a bear or we thought it was a wolf run across the road. I was either with you or I was with Ben.

Yeah.

I don't remember who it was, but I've never seen a wolf in the wild. Like a real, like, absolute. Like, look at him. Holy.

Yeah.

Yeah. They look at you in a certain way.

Oh, bro.

Like, one of the first trips I ever did to Canada was up in Northwest Territories, and I actually thought it was caribou coming down the river. Like, just the color of the wolves similar to a caribou. And then I worked out that wolves. And the guy that I was with, he's like, that's a pack of wolves. And I'm like, can I call them in?

Oh, God.

And he's Adam Green tree.

What's wrong with you?

He's like, yeah. And then I got up against the tree and I just started doing, like, a. Call it a do for, like, a fox or a wild dog back in Australia. And this whole pack come in like a wounded rabbit. You've never seen them come in. They were, like, up in our vision up there. Yeah, Like a rabbit called Distress Rabbit. And the next minute, there was just, like, right there. They were fully surrounding us and just come in. Yeah, it was freaking cool. But I just remember they could fully see me at that point, and they were still just, like, looking through me. And I was like, yeah, that's sick.

You ever hear Dudley story when Dudley. Dudley and some guy that he was with in bc. I think it was bc, Pretty sure. Or no, it was Alberta. They killed a. I think it was a. I think it was an elk. But when they killed it, they killed it essentially on top of where the wolves den, like, right there. And wolves started circling around them. And the guide had, like, one round in his rifle, and Dudley had, like, two arrows or three arrows left. And they're surrounded by wolves. And Dudley shot two of them with a bow and arrow, and the. The guide shot one with a rifle. They shot three wolves. Three wolves. He said there was, like, they were surrounding him. He said it was the freakiest thing he's ever experienced.

It wouldn't have been a great feeling.

He told the story on the podcast, and it was just like that, man. You only have two bullets. You like. What is wrong with you?

Two bullets in one life.

What do you. What. What the Are you doing, man?

You know, killed a bull in New Mexico one year, and I killed it late in the afternoon. So we did a pack out. This is just going back to the mountain line story. We took. We did a pack out with me. Went back in. In the dark with head torches. And as we're walking in, I seen a couple of eyes or whatever, and it was just like, deer, mule deer or something like that. And then I'm like, oh, there's another deer up in front of us. And as we got closer, the. The eyes were too high, and it's just like, nah, that's not a deer. And it was a mountain lion up in the tree. Like, it was right up in the tree. There was the kill there. That lion stayed in the tree while we grabbed more meat and packed it out.

You grabbed his meat? Yeah, the mountain lion's meat.

Well, it was his kill.

It was your kill, my kill.

And I was going back in for it and just thinking it was a set of deer eyes. And as we're walking up, the eyes were like, up in the tree. And that's like. So I've only seen two. That's one of them. And it was in the dark. And I swear, if it was daylight, I would have seen one in my whole entire hunting.

Did you see Cam's brother's story on. On Instagram? Oh, my God. Cam's brother was running late at night in California. At night in California. And. Should we play it?

Yeah.

Did we ever play it on the show? I think we might have. We might have.

Did you? Yeah, Yeah, I know you mentioned it.

Terrifying.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's terrible. I've never seen that in Australia.

By the way, what's your brother's name again?

Taylor.

Taylor. It's like T. Spike.

Yeah. Yeah, Taylor. So it's my. It's my stepdad and mom had two kids, Taylor and Megan.

Oh.

So those are my brothers or brother and sister.

And then he does ultras, too.

Yeah, he's. He's actually really good.

Yeah. Good. He seemed like one of them dudes who had to get it in, you.

Know, he had to get it in at night. He. He did a 300 mile race just last year. He got. He's competing, trying to win the thing, of course, but got second.

Wow.

The Arizona Monster 300.

Oh, my God.

So that hurts my hips and my joints. That's the level he's at.

300 miles or 300 kilometers.

Miles.

That makes it so much worse.

You thinking about kilometers? I thought you're an American now. Didn't we convert you? Yeah, we were trying to teach you inches the other night.

My lip, for some reason. It's an American thing, you guys.

It's probably illegal over there.

Probably. They'll take it away Government's gonna control it.

Yeah. How's that working out?

You can. You can do that, but you have to wear a mask.

Did you find Taylor's video?

It's on. I think it's on his Instagram.

Yeah, it is. It's definitely. Did I send it to you at one point in time? Maybe. I just found a video of you talking about it now. It's. Unless he took it down. I don't think he took it down. What is his Instagram handle?

It's T? Spike something.

Like.

Like that.

T?

Spike something.

Yeah, I'll find it.

T spike 300 miles coming in second.

Place in 300 miles is bananas. And meanwhile, how. How much difference was there between him and number one?

I think a couple hours, probably.

Oh, God.

That's insane.

But it took.

Oh, God.

I think he did it in 88 hours.

That is nuts, man.

That's a serious effort.

That is a serious effort.

There's some. There's some freaks out there for sure.

I'll do it one day.

He's one of them.

Are you gonna do it one day for real?

Yeah.

T. Spike 2.

Couple more visits away as well will be good.

What? Jamie, I don't know where the video is. Okay, I'll find it. I'll find it. Yeah, he's. Oh, it's me talking about it. That's.

Oh, he must have re. Shared that or something.

Yeah, here it is. I found it right away. It's just his face. When you see his face staring at the camera, it says lion. Oh, you got it. Okay. It says lion. Update. Yeah, this is it. Give me some volume.

Restless night of this reoccurring dream of these green eyes Hot on my tail I was coming down the trail last night just after dark and I see these green eyes off to the side of the trail. I mean, right on the side of the trail. What I thought was a coyote, I just kind of yelled. And then when it stood up, I realized it was a fucking mountain lion. I took off running as hard as I could, and I looked over my shoulder and it was right behind me. I ran for probably 100 yards and realized it wasn't giving up. And I turned around and I kicked rocks and I jumped up and down and I screamed to the top of my lungs, and this thing did not care. I did that a few times to the point that at one point I almost thought, I'm just going to lay down here and die because I'm not going to outrun this thing. Another time, it got really close to me. And I thought I had no choice but to try to scare it. And I turned and I screamed and I kicked rocks. I mean, to the point it was, I mean, it was right, right there.

And I finally decided, well, you just gotta run. Run for your fucking life. I've done some crazy shit in my life. I've been pretty scared. But this, this was next level. This was next level. It terrified me. You know, I think maybe if I'd had a gun, I could have done something. Pepper spray. I don't think that it was so close that I would have probably pepper sprayed myself. So I don't know. I was a half mile from the city in Lake Forest, California. I mean, like straight up, I could hear dogs barking. And at one point I thought maybe that's what kind of detoured it. But I didn't care. So this morning I'm gonna ride the bike. Probably won't go back out there in the dark. I did wait around for the sheriff's department and fishing game because there was other hikers on the trail that were above me that would have had to have come down. And I, I just don't know how other people would have responded. Like I said, I've done some scary. I've been in the woods my whole life. But this, this was next level. It was terrifying. But I'm all good, back at it.

Right? I guess if this only happens one time in your life, I got it out of the way. I'm a lucky fucker. Have a good day. I'll keep at it.

Doesn't work like that.

That is the consequences of letting monsters live in your neighborhood. Yeah, that's real. And all these wilderness loving people, like, I guarantee you, you're not out there as much as that guy is. I guarantee you not out there as much as you are. You are. That's the difference between people that really understand what we're talking about and people that are looking at this from this knee jerk love and compassion for nature perspective.

Well, back to what Cam said. It's like the majority of the votes are people that don't get in that environment. And it's not just about hunting. That's for farmers anywhere as well. There's people in the city that are making votes for people that live in the country. And the lifestyle is completely different and.

They don't understand what they're talking about. Especially the BC band. Like, we're gonna ban trophy hunting. Trophy hunting's bad. No, but what about monster control? Isn't that good? I'm on Team people Okay. I love animals, but I am on team people.

Imagine if they knew how soft we were. They don't have to spit out hair. Like, the flesh is right here. It's soft. It's so easy to get into because they.

They usually go in at the stomach, you know, or the ass. It's like our stomach. How soft those are?

Straight to the organs.

Yeah, it's right. Right to the good stuff. Yeah.

Not good.

And it's like new.

Even. I don't think people, like, even a dog can turn into like, I killed a buck, you know, before we went on that last hunt, I killed a buck. And like, for the treat, for the dog, you cut off the nuts, give them the nut. So it's got hide on it, it's got the. The buck's nuts. Basically. Dog takes off, they're just like ripping into it. It's like delicacy. Right. That's just a normal dog. So a lion who's born and bred to kill. I mean, that's just the level of what animals do.

Your.

Your liver is a rib eye, and they haven't eaten in a week. You're like, oh, baby, look at that liver. It's right there.

Yeah. And those, the dogs there, that, that deer camp, you give them like a part of the. I don't know, there's some skin. It's not the flank steak, but it's just some skin there that sometimes you cut off, that goes over the stomach and run off. Eat that. Eat pounds and pounds of meat. A regular dog. So a lion. Yeah, they'll eat. What they do is they just eat as much meat as they can and they just kind of lay around. So that's the time to actually run from a lion is after a big meal, you know what I mean? Because their stomachs are full of meat. Maybe that's why Taylor. Maybe that lion that chased him had just killed a deer and was full of protein. But, you know, they still hunt. That's what they do. It's their instinct. But sometimes you can time it right and maybe that saves your life.

Yeah, geez. That's not a risk we should be taking. No, this is.

If you can avoid it, it's always better.

It's like they're so hard to find. People don't understand. You're not going to put a dent in their population. This is not like any other. It's not like deer. You can depopulate a deer. Like an environment of deer. If you went crazy and hunted them all and said, let's eradicate all the deer, every hunter, you can shoot as many deer as you want. Just let's go do it right now. You can get rid of all the deer. You ain't ever doing that with cats.

Yeah, they're too sneaky.

Not now. Not now.

Even in Australia, with buffalo, you can fly and eliminate a lot of stuff. Pigs here, deer, buffalo down there, the water buffalo. But you're not doing helicopter killing of lions.

Yeah, no, you can do wolves. You can do wolves. They'll lower wolf populations that way. And they do. Do they do in some parts of the world. They do in Alaska, right?

Yeah.

They do wolf kills from helicopters.

Yeah. And. And yeah, I mean, lions are just tough, but they're so. I did sneaky. I didn't even realize this, but Oregon, as we were looking at those numbers that Jamie pulled up, Oregon, the goal is 970 lions a year. But we never get to it. Right. So what that means is we're not meeting our objective of lion kills. That means there's more and more lions every. Every year.

Don't they factor that into the amount of tags they give though, that there's going to be a limited amount of success. So they'll give more tags than there will be, like, than they actually need.

To kill for lions or for.

For lions?

Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm not sure how. How they do it. It's supposed to be like a balance, you know, I mean, if, if. But the. What happens is not enough lions are getting killed. So there's too many lions. So that means the lions are killing too many deer now because there's two, the lion number is too high. And that's what's kind of happening. There's areas in Oregon that were great hunting at one time that are terrible now.

Well, here's a perfect example. Where I used to live in California, you guys been in my house. A lot of land, a lot of woods, a lot of like. There's a lot of, like, wildlife out there. Good luck finding a deer.

Oh, yeah.

You might find two, three in a month. In a month. I see deer every fucking day out here. I see them every day. You know why? No mountain lions. And you could shoot them. California has a mountain lion problem. Like, it's a real problem.

Yeah.

The place, the Tohon ranch, that place, they had a camera out in front of one of their ponds and they got 16 different mountain lions on that camera. Sixteen.

Yeah. And what the people in LA, they have no idea what's going. But they're voting.

Right?

That's who controls what's voting with their hearts.

And. Yeah, they're vote well. And they're good people. And I would have voted with them. Right. Okay. If I had never been hunting and never been in the woods, I would have voted with them. Maybe not. Maybe not. Because I'm a little skeptical of people's wisdom, and I probably would have looked into it a little bit and thought about what it'd be like to get eaten by a mountain lion and go, what do you. What the fuck are we talking about?

Right.

Kill these goddamn things. You crazy? Don't kill them all. You don't have to kill them all. They're gonna exist in the woods where they're supposed to be. They're not supposed to be in Pasadena.

Right.

Okay. They're not supposed to be wandering around the Hollywood Hills like that one that. I have the big picture. That one's crazy.

That lion. That picture is insane.

Insane. The Hollywood sign behind him, and he's wearing a collar. That picture, to me, embodies, like, everything that's wrong with California. Like, you know where he is, and he's in the neighborhood where people live, and you just put a collar on him.

Yeah.

So you could track him when he's killing dogs. Like, what. What are you saying? You know how many. Look at that photo.

Yeah.

That is a sick photo.

That is. That's one of the most amazing photos ever, ever taken.

When. As soon as I saw that photo, I'm like, oh, my God, we have to buy a print.

What do you think he's thinking?

Ordered it from the photographer. What is he thinking? What am I going to kill next? And why is this great thing on.

My neck is the most tastiest?

That's. That's right above where Huberman used to live. Oh, it's.

Dude, it's right there, by the way. That's like, we filmed Fear Factor out there a bunch of times.

Yeah.

Look at that. Oh, my God. Look at his face. Imagine wandering into that. The thing is so big.

How sick of a photo is that?

Amazing.

Yeah.

And it's all camera traps.

Yeah. So. But here's what's so critical. And, you know, hunters, we can be our own worst enemies. But part of what discussions like this and talking about how it actually works is so important. It's not for other hunters. It's for people who don't hunt, who do vote. You know, it's like, hey, let's. Let's just educate.

Yeah.

People who don't understand. It's not. It's not your fault. You don't understand. You haven't hunted your whole life. That's okay. But just listen to what we're saying and just say like, hey, when that vote comes up and it's like we're talking about, you know, being able to hunt lions with dogs or black bear with bait. Let's think about, hey, there's repercussions if we don't allow this.

You know, they don't just don't know what it is. It sounds cruel. Lions with dogs. Like, oh, that's not even fair. Yeah, you want to hunt it with a spear. If you want to hunt it like we used to hunt him, hunt it with a spear.

No, bare hands is what I see. Kill with your bare hands.

That's the, the dumbest argument. That's the dumbest. How do you think we got to the point where we don't have fangs, you dolt?

And this we got there.

We evolved past that because we figured out weapons, okay? And that's why we can have cities.

Never kill with their hands. At least they had a wooden spear. So what are you talking about? Bare hands?

It's the dumbest argument of all time. Don't understand that we would have never had civilization if we didn't do this. Exactly. And it wouldn't exist.

The conversation doesn't come from a want perspective from me. I've got no desire to hunt a mountain lion again. I don't. But as someone that's in the know, because I have before, you know, and I wanted to educate myself prior to that hunt. I was doing as much reading as I could to find out do I feel good about this is. Yeah. So it's not like I. I want them still on the list to hunt because I want to go and do it again. I don't have a desire to do that again myself, but I do see that it's good management, you know, and instead of necessary, instead of them being culled and not utilized, you know, and it actually costing money, you know, there's money going into conservation at that point from the hunter and the meat utilized, you know, and as you mentioned, in, in that case, I gave that meat to a lot of people because I wanted people to see it as a food source as well, you know, as in. Because you do you sort of think of the mountain lion. You're like, the meat was amazing. Some of the most incredible meat I've ever had.

I mean, even, even if. So just say they didn't require you to take the meat and you didn't. And you didn't eat it still. They need to be killed.

Yes.

That's all there is to it. Just to make the. The deer and elk population, just to make it work like it has to work. Because humans, people will always say, well, mother Nature will take care of itself. It's like no humans have encroached on this habitat. That's why we need to control this. This isn't like the wide open west that it once was where, yeah, maybe it'd work out eventually. It's not going to work out.

They were here first.

We're part of the system.

100 Adam, you know, he said he's killed one. He doesn't plan on killing another. I've never killed one. I've never killed a lion in my entire life. But I know it's important. So it's not like I'm this big lion hunter that I just have this passion for doing and I want to kill as many as possible. Never even killed one. But I know that we have to kill them. And in Colorado there, that's one thing. You know, you talk about sex in the animal up on up in the tree because you can see what it is. Male, female. You don't. When I hunted them, I did hunt them. I didn't kill. But you could kill any lion essentially, if it didn't have, you know, it couldn't be a female with cubs but. Or kittens. But you look at them in the tree and you can decide, oh, that's a female. Probably not the best kill. Let's kill an old male. Because it's just. That's how it just works better that way. Taking old males out and. But you can do that. And same thing with baiting bear. A bear comes in. A bear is really tough to tell whether it's a boar or sow that's male or female for those that don't know.

But at a bait, when you're looking very closely, you can see, oh, that's an old male. That's the one I want to take.

So that's why.

That's why there's. It's not just random like I'm rifle hunting is 400 yards away running. And you kill like a bear and it has. Has cubs. You didn't realize it had cubs because the cubs are in a tree somewhere that the sow left. So that's where baiting is actually the best way to manage these numbers. And it might seem like, oh, you just throw out donuts and this and that and the bear comes in. I mean, yeah, you could term it like that, or you could say, no, we're targeting the right animal to make this work the best, best way it can.

Well, people need to understand that wildlife biologists and the numbers that they put up and the rules that they apply, especially the rational rules like that, they exist because it's the only effective way to hunt these things. Like, there. You don't use dogs to hunt elk, you know?

Right.

It's like they. Because it doesn't seem right.

Right.

There's. There's one effective way to get these mountain lions, and you got to tree them. You know, if you don't. If you don't have that option and you're bow hunting, you have to stumble upon one, and they're not gonna. They're gonna know you're coming for ever before, you know they're there forever, hundreds of yards away. They're gonna smell you. They'll hear something. They'll turn and look at it. They have amazing eyesight, you know, like, you're not finding them. And if you want to keep the populations in check, there's like, California's got a bear problem too. And part of their bear problem is you can't use dogs anymore.

Yeah.

That was the only way they could really control populations.

In a lot of these places, dogs are baiting. Hey, Jamie, I got another project. So Cam Canadae, you start spelled with a K. As we were talking about, he had a deer tag. He's deer hunting this in. In Oregon. This is what you do. You just buy a bear and a lion tag just to have with you. But he killed this giant lion. He was deer hunting. This lion came up, sat on this rock 40 yards away, and he's just like, I got a lion tag. Perfect. Boom. Got. Put a perfect arrow in this giant lion. But look at this thing.

And he's a big dude.

He. He played for the Steelers for like, six years in the NFL. Look at the size. Yeah, so that was just like a happen chance. That's how you get him in Oregon, because you can't use dogs. You can't do anything else. So that lion just. Just jumped up there, and he made a perfect shot on it.

That's crazy.

But look at that big thing.

God.

Yeah. Pretty nuts. And like I said, Cam's like six, four. I don't know, two, three.

Did you ever see the one Derek Wolf killed?

Yeah, that was a giant one, too.

Giant one. So the Derek Wolf story is a great one too, because he took so much heat online about it. People were so ang in him that he did that. And it's just people that don't understand. Yeah. Why it's necessary. Look, and first of all, if you know Derek. Derek's a legit Viking crank. He's a legit Viking. That guy's a giant human being. So for him to be holding. Is there another picture we see like the full. That's it.

There's the full length, 180 pounds.

Look at the size of that thing.

Yeah. So you. And I don't know what the numbers are, but you think a lion kills, especially a lion that big has to basically kill a deer every week. Right. So that's 365 deer a year that thing is killed or. No, not. No, that's 52 deer a year.

Imagine there's a deer every day. No, but do you know the wolf thing?

Possibly.

They say lions are killing more deer now than ever in places where there's wolves because the wolves scare the lion off. The kill the wolves, they steal them all the time. So the lions just give up and they go kill another one.

Right.

They can kill way easier than the deer can. They're way more effective killers.

So think about. So 50, say 50 lion or 50 deer a year for each lion. How many lions are in Colorado? A lot. A lot. You know, a lot. That's a lot of deer or, or elk calves or something's being killed.

Yeah. Australia's got a real bad problem with shark population now. And it's like. And I'm taking it there because what's happening is for like a really good eating fish, like a Red Emperor, you'll only get like five Red Emperor. That should. That's your quota for the day. You can only catch five. And what the sharks are doing now is you'll hook a Red Emperor and the sharks will just take it off the line. So you don't have a Red Emperor in the boat anymore, but one's dead because the shark's got it. So you keep fishing. And then. So now the Red Emperor numbers are declining because sharks, that's if like their favorite fish to jump up to, grab off a line, you can catch a cod. You'll get it to the boat because the sharks aren't going for it. But if it's a red fish, the sharks are taking it constantly. And then. So what's happened is because there's been a ban on shark fishing, shark numbers have gotten out of control. So now Red Emperor numbers have plummeted because the sharks are just eating them constantly.

How many people in Australia get killed by sharks every Year.

There's been a few this year already. Yeah, I actually just had. I had my girlfriend out a couple of maybe a month or two ago, and I took her to this beautiful beach and it was. It was awesome. As soon as we got there, there's dolphins jumping out of the water and whatnot. Anyway, we never went for a swim just because of how the conditions were. And a week later, a lady was taken from that beach and her partner may have died as well. I didn't follow up on the story, but a partner got attacked as well, but got out of the water. And it's great whites mostly on the east Coast. They seem to be running pretty rampant at the moment.

Kill them.

It's the bleeding hearts that are making the votes.

Four confirmed fatal shark attacks in 2025 so far, with some trackers listing four or five deaths depending on how many incidents are class or how incidents are classified. But think about how much less people are out there in the water than on the ground. Oh, yeah, that's the thing. It's like people go, there's only four Shar Arkatacs a year. Right. But how many people are in the water?

Yeah. Out of 500 people, it's not a.

Lot of people in the water swimming.

Out the way to go.

Oh, yeah. Good Lord.

Absolute monster of the ocean.

Oh, yeah. Is. Isn't it weird to think that. I mean, most society doesn't know anything about the wild these days, you know.

I mean, yeah, we're domesticated.

Yeah. So it's. But even like. I don't know, I. I always say that. I mean, we talked about this. I'm pretty sure because I talk about it all the time, but like, I always think that society like this regular life here is fake. It's like it's not even. Not even real. It's not even how humans were designed to. To live and survive. Where the wild is actually where. That's how. That's what we're designed to do. Live in the mountains or. Or hunt and survive. Things like that. And so the fake life, I don't know, it's just crazy to me to think about that.

The fake life is what we think.

Of as the real life is a real life.

Yeah.

And it's not. It's not real. It's like what we're doing. Yeah.

It's just real life. Yeah. We're. We're made to live in a society that's not by mine or your design.

Right.

You know, and it's sort of like. And that's. I Always feel out of it in society because I just feel like it's not for me, but it is, it's here and we've got to live in it. I do like going the ways to wells and getting a good injection, so. But I just want to go when I want to go.

That's the way to do it. Attack it from the outside. Yeah. Go in, go to a nice restaurant and get back out to the country and just relax. It's better for people. You ever see that? The old days of vice, when vice used to do really cool stuff, they had Vice guide to travel. And there's this one guy who lives in the Arctic Circle and this dude is. He's been there since the 1970s. He got a job up there and got permitted where he's like grandfathered in to allowed to live in a small cabin up there. Like the last guy there, he has like a permit on his door. And this guy has been living up there ever since he saw 911 in a photograph like a year after it happened. Had no idea what was going on. Very smart guy, like intelligent, interesting guy and lives up there with his wife and all he does is hunt caribou and fish. And he talks about it and he's like, this is how people are supposed to live. Like when you. He's not like, he's a very intelligent guy. So like when he's talking about. He's talking it from like an internal programming.

Like this is like this feeling that you get living. Like this is how people are supposed to live. And when you live like this, you're very fulfilled and it feels normal, whereas most people don't feel normal. Most people are depressed, they have anxiety, they're worried about their career, they're worried about all this stuff that is like human created. They're worried about our. Their social status, whether they're ostracized for the neighborhood or people like them anymore because their political beliefs or whatever the it is. There's none of that out there. There's none of that because it's what's the way we were designed. But if we want all the things that we enjoy, like Starlink and cell phones, like, like you have to have this weird fake world that we've created, the human created world. But it's not conducive to like a healthy mindset for most people. It's not normal. And so all the. I have this thought about why exercise is so important for people's mental health, because I think at the very least what it does is it Gives you, like. Like the physical exertion that your body requires. But I think your body requires a connection as well.

And that's what we're missing. We're missing the natural world connection. And you can get some of that out of the physical exercise. You can get some of that out of, like, doing. But your body's literally designed to have to move and to complete tasks in order to survive. And that task could be like that guy out there hunting caribou, building a house, surviving. Like making a homestead, growing a garden. Like, this is a normal way. We are, but we're moving into this abnormal way. You know, along the way, people are losing their marbles. Everyone's crazy. No one knows what a woman is anymore. Like, everyone, like, literally out of their mind. Out of their mind. But if the left win, the democracy, if the right win, we're all going to be Nazis, and it's just chaos.

Yeah.

And none of it is normal. None of it is natural. And the reason why it's so incompatible with most people is because we're not designed for it.

I feel it. I know Cam's the same, but, like, it's just like, time doing those things that are usually in a quieter environment, in a more natural environment. Like, I mentally feel better every time. And then I. I almost feel myself slipping when I come back to the city, you know, and it's just like. Like you sort of start letting your guard down. You just slip back into it, and you're like, this is. I'm not enjoying this. And then you go back out hunting for us or camping or whatever it is. And then I do. I feel revitalized. I feel healthier. Mentally and physically, I feel healthier. And then. But adding all the other things to it, you know, like, you talk about, like, you know, exercise and. Yeah, it does touch on it. And I. And I think all those little things help, but to really get out in fresh air is the big one for me, where it's just. I do. I feel more flow state.

I wonder if, like, I'm sure Nate, like primitive man felt emotions for sure. But do you think they felt depressed?

No. I mean, I think.

You know what I mean.

I feel like they were too busy. I think that survive.

I think people. I think this is part of this fake society is like, are you happy? Are you happy? It's like happy. What the is happy? I want to be useful out there. I want to do. Do something. I'm not happy. Sad. I'm nothing.

Right.

What is happy? I'm content.

Just being right.

I feel content just being. Yeah.

When you're in the, in the mountains, carrying your bow, glassing, looking, drinking, eating, looking for a place to sleep. What is that? That's what I want. I don't know what is happening. I don't know what it is, but that's like purpose. Like I have a purpose. I'm. I'm trying to kill something that is that happy.

Yeah, you're trying to find food.

To me, that feels. Because I don't know what happy is. I see people, they laugh and they're fucking around. Sometimes it's, it's alcohol induced or drug induced or it's like, is that supposed to be happy? What is ha. I don't know. I don't know. What, what do we. What are we calling happy? Because that's not like a little kid laughing at a birthday party. But are those both? Are they both happy?

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You pretend you're shooting zombies with VR. That's happy. It's fun. It's silly. You get it out of it. Everyone has a smile. You had a good time. That was wild. That's happy, too. There's a bunch of different kinds of happy. Some of it we've created. But there's content. Like, are you content? Like, are you enjoying your existence?

Yeah.

And I think that's a real struggle for a lot of people.

Right.

Because there's a giant percentage of the people that are listening to this right now that are forced to do something they don't enjoy doing most of the time. Most of the time, most of their day, they're doing something they don't enjoy doing because they have to do it in order to do the things that they do enjoy. So if you want to go on vacation, you got to make enough money to afford the trip to Hawaii. If you want to do this, you got to do that. If you want to do this, you got to do that. And so you're just fucking in some stupid cubicle, punching keys, just planning all the fun stuff you're going to do with the money that you make doing this thing you hate doing, doing.

It's pretty nice.

It's pretty nuts.

I've never. I've never felt happy in that.

That's what I'm saying about having to.

Do something to get to somewhere.

Right.

Sometimes you have to be unhappy.

That's true, too.

And you're the wrong person to be commenting on this because you're extreme. You're never going to be happy because you're going to continue to chase bigger and better.

Yeah, that's why.

That's awesome.

I don't know. I mean, and I mentioned this before, or I'm happiest when I'm suffering.

Yeah, that's ridiculous.

No, but, like, doesn't it feel like.

Adam and I, we just looked at each other.

He's crazy.

Because when I'm suffering, it's because I'm doing something that matters to me. Right.

Yeah. You like that. And you know what's on the other side, that's what makes us.

Yeah, you've sort of programmed yourself to be like that, too. You know, this is like similar to Goggins. Right. Conkins always wants people to know that he wasn't always like this, that he used to be fat and lazy. And he shows pictures of himself at £300. He always talks about it. You know, it's like. It's like, this isn't. I wasn't born like this. Like, I turned myself into this. And I think one of the reasons why you've been able to struggle so much as you figured out a way to enjoy struggle, and a lot of people avoid struggle at all costs. They want the couch. Oh, I Want to relax? It's cold out. I don't want to get in that cold plunge. Are you crazy? What's wrong with you?

You know, I love struggle. Because you know what's on the other side? Yeah. The growth. So it's like, once you've done that, and I think that's where a lot of people struggle. If they quit or they don't get to the other side, then you don't know the reward on it.

What you just said is perfect. That's why they struggle, because they don't struggle. It's like the thing you're avoiding is causing you to have the exact same thing. It's just you're getting a slow dose of that poison and you never get out of it. Whereas if you voluntarily struggle, then you get this beautiful feeling when it's over, but you're not doing that. So you're just getting the same amount of struggle in these weird little slow doses all day long. So you're never getting like, oh, my God, I'm in agony. I can't breathe. But if you did, then the rest of the day would be easy.

Yeah.

Instead you're getting, oh, my God. The world is closing in on me, and I don't know why I'm so freaked out, and I'm riddled with anxiety all day long for no fucking reason. I'm having a panic and attack, and there's nothing wrong. That's what's going on. Like, you're. You're getting your suffering in, like, little doses all day long, and it's driving crazy.

Yeah.

And that's why you get on SSRIs, and that's why you do this and that's why you do that. And you join a cult. And everyone's just trying to figure out a way to feel better. Everyone's just trying to figure out a way to feel better. And one of the ways to feel better is voluntary struggling.

Yeah.

You gotta volunteer to put yourself in stressful situations, difficult situations. Do it on purpose. If you do that, then the regular world is easier.

Yeah, It's. I think, like, I'm always, of course, biased towards hunting in the mountains, but I also think that men. Men specifically. You know, where I grew up and in the environment I grew up, hunters were respected. And if you killed a big buck, you're like, that meant something in the small town. I was.

Because it's very difficult to do right.

And it's like, for men, respect is such an important thing. It's like we always say, women need love. Men need if you have to choose men. Love doesn't mean shit, really. But respect does. And hunting was a way to earn respect from the community. And that's why, for men as hunters, I think that's appealing for people who don't hunt because they see that image and they're like, I'm missing that. Because they see that there's. There's respect earned there. And that's what men, whether they want to admit it or not, that's a big driving force. Like you. Even at work and whatever job you have, you want to be respected.

Here's a perfect example. That story you were telling me about shooting that bull in the Oregon backcountry. And you. It's terrible place to kill a bull. And you called up that dude.

Yeah, that guy, Cal Holiday, which sounds.

Like a fake name.

We're talking about that like a gunslinger.

Sounds like such a fake name. It's a perfect badass name. You call this dude and ask him to help you. Dude drove through. You told him, okay. He said, I'll see you there at 8am yeah, these guys drives through the night. He shows up, like, how many hours did it take him to get there?

He had a hike, four guys, so he had to round up three other guys. So he brought four of like him and three guys. And they live. God, how far away? I mean, at least a couple hours, I think. And so they had to get together, drive a couple hours, get up on this old, like, logging road essentially into the. To the access point of the wilderness, to the trailhead, pack in miles. Right. So this is like 9 or 10 at night. They said they'd be there at 8 in the morning. So that's what it took, like, to get there and then miles back to this remote middle of the wilderness, hellhole area by 8:00am so, yeah, it was. It was hours and hours and hours just to get there.

And you can't time that the way. You can't time that. But he did talk about it.

Yeah, but the way you talked about him, that's what every man wants. Yeah, like that was a man.

Yes, but he earned it too. You know, that's. And you're talking about, you know, respect so important, but you do have to earn respect.

Right, Right. And that when. So in that moment. So there was me, Wayne Tanner, my son James, my camera guy, Gideon, and then he brought four guys. So we had eight guys in that moment. There's not eight other men I'd rather have or seven other men besides me that I'd rather have. There because those. To do that, that's special. That's. Not everybody can do that shit. But those guys, that was their purpose. They could probably never be, quote, happier than in that moment. Elk meat on our back. Miles to get to the trailhead.

Out hundreds of pounds of meat.

Yeah. 300 pounds of meat. So we waited at the butcher. When I took the. To get processed. 300 pounds of boned out meat. That's not a bone on there.

So not including your camp, not including everything. So your back, your body and the head.

I took the head out. So 300 pounds of meat plus everything else that we had. But eight of us packed it out and it was a great. The greatest day I can remember probably this season, you know, I mean, it was. That. That was. That was real. That's what I say, that. That's real.

Yeah.

All this other shit. I don't know what this is, but that was fucking real. I killed a bull. We have to get it out to take care of this meat. Here's some badass mountain men who can help me. Does it get any better?

No. Yeah. I think I've known you for 13 or 14 years now, and you've always been like that. I've never changed in that sense. Like those things are important to you. Those things are meaningful to you. It's incredible.

No, it's. Thank you. But yeah, it's. It's. Yeah. I mean, that's all that matters.

It's. Most people never experience that. That's what's wrong. What's wrong is most people never experienced that insane, challenging experience where your character's tested, your will is tested, your commitment is tested.

Just think. So the video on this hunt came out last night and it's called the Bowhunter. But there's a moment there after we had called, after we'd got my bullet process. So at that time, it was just me, Wayne, Tanner and James. And we're just sitting there. We had our tent set up. The meat's all hanging up. Middle of the night, sitting there talking. We're eating peak meals.

I'm like, why are we eating peak meals? Why didn't you eat the elk?

We didn't have a fire, but the meat was processed. It wasn't time to eat or like to break down the bowl. But that would have been great. Tenderloins over fire would have been amazing. We just didn't do it. But the point is, in that moment, there's no other place on earth, no other time in my life that I would rather be. That is that was the pinnacle of life for me.

That's a normal, natural experience for primitive man. Yes, that's what it is. And it's how we stayed alive. And the way I describe it to people, there's a feeling, most people have caught a fish. There's a feeling when someone catches a fish, like, even a child. When I took my daughter bass fishing, she was like six, I think she caught a bunch of bass. And the feeling that she got when she hooked it, like, oh, her eyes light up. It is built in us, it's inside of us. But catching a fish bow, hunting in the mountains, killing an animal, cooking it over a fire with your boys, is that times a thousand. It's a crazy built in. We did what we have to do, and we're looking forward to doing it again. So that, that the intense experience, the difficulty, all of it. You're sitting there, relax, you're eating, and you have no doubt. You can't wait to do that again. You're not like, man, I don't want to do this again. This is nuts. You're like, yeah, I'm fucking tired. But that was awesome.

Yeah.

Yeah, that was awesome. You take the pack off, like, dude, he's sitting there by the fire, like, holy. You're drenched in sweat, your legs are gone. Everybody's around smiling like, we fucking did it. We did it.

I just don't know how. I mean, you hope the films can show that and. But gives you a peek to feel it.

Oh, yeah, it's.

I would. I wish everybody could feel it, just so they'd know. Yeah, it'll never happen. But it's. It's so power. It's life changing.

Do you remember Israel Adesanya's speech after he knocked out Pereira?

Yes.

What'd he say?

He. He goes. I wish he goes, people of the world, I would play it. Let's play it, because it's fucking amazing. So this is Alex Pereira. This is a guy that had beaten him three times.

Three times? Yeah.

Knocked him out in kickboxing, knocked him out in mma, and then finally he knocked him out.

Yeah.

And this is like. Everybody was like, terrified of him taking this rematch. Pereira can't be stopped. Pereira is a destroyer. He's the scariest guy ever. But he asked me to. To give him the microphone. Look at that.

What a human.

Yeah, I love style Bender.

Oh, he's the best. Holy.

He's the best. Yes. One second. Let me just hold the mic real quick. Yes, sir.

Hey, sure, sure.

Listen up. I want to say something, people. Earth I need to say something. Listen to me. I hope every one of you behind your screens on this arena can feel this level of happiness just one time in your life. I hope all of you can feel how happy I am just one time in your life. But guess what? What? You never feel this level of happiness if you don't go for something in your own life. When they knock you down, when they try on you, when they talk about you and they try and put their foot on your neck. If you stay down, you will never, ever get that resolve. Fortify your mind and feel this level of happiness as you rise one time in your life. But I'm blessed to be able to feel this again and again and again and again and again. Greatest post fight speech of all time.

You know what I love too is like, even in that moment, like, there's a little bit of blood starting to trickle out of his nose, you know, I mean, because he looks. He looks really good. It does for just fighting, but it's like there's little, you know, the sweat, the blood trip trickling.

Oh, man, he's getting hit, man. He's getting hit. And his left leg was already destroyed.

He didn't take many of those.

No, he was talking to me about it afterwards. He's like, that got me again. I was thinking that before that he got my fucking leg again. Because that was a part of the problem with the first fight. Yeah, first MMA fight, his left leg was destroyed. He couldn't move his left leg. So even though he's like bobbing me, he's like, I was okay. He goes. But I couldn't get out of there because I couldn't move my fucking leg, man. He goes, I was getting hit, but I was still there. I was moving like, he was still moving around, but he couldn't go away. Like, his leg was destroyed. And that's what people don't think about when you like goddamn calf kicks.

Yeah. He probably knew after the first one, he was like, he got me again.

He destroys people's legs and then you're a sitting duck in front of the scariest puncher in the history of the division.

Hands of stone.

Oh, my God, he's terrifying. And for him to catch him with that perfect right hand off the cage like that, oh, my. And then shoot the arrows into him. Greatest fight celebration. Greatest post fight speech of all time. Of all time. There's not even a second place that, that really. Except Rosenoma unistributed that one time when she was saying, I'm the best that was pretty powerful. That was pretty powerful too.

Can you find that tent scene at the end of that video? So, but here's what. Here's what I was curious about is, oh, he did find it. Yeah, like right here. So the difference between Israel's happiness and this happiness.

But you know, you go until you're just sick of the wait and you get it under the tree in the shade.

Yeah.

And you get all kind of energized.

Come back, drink some water, grab another.

And then mentally, you're not coming back to here.

Right.

I mean, you get it all across the creek in that flat. I mean, it doesn't get any more in the bottom.

That was a pack out. But I wouldn't want it any other way. Wayne, he had a horse packer set up. And then I. I had also talked to Cal Halliday, and when I was in there by my. Myself on an opening weekend, he said, hey, if you kill a bull in here by yourself, he goes, let me know. Send me a text or something. I'll have, you know, four or five guys here within five hours to help pack. So, no, it wasn't opening weekend. But I'm like, I told Wayne that and I said, he goes, well, who do you want to. Who do you want to get a hold of? You want to get a hold of cow or do you want to get hold of the horse packer? And I'm like, I think I'd rather have cow with some other badass, you know, mountain guys and just share this pack out with them.

Yeah. But so if we go. Less of a jungle too.

So these guys right here, bro, you don't want any other people. And Tanner's got so much weight on true form. Cal, they got up, I don't know what time, three in the morning, made it all the way there. They said they'd be there at 8:00am they were down at my bowl at 801. And I don't. I mean, this is miles and miles and miles just, you know, just studs.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, it's like, I'll never forget that. I'll never forget the whole. Obviously the whole hunt. But that morning was a special one. Cal, Eric, Keith and Ryan, massive.

Yeah.

So thankful for them.

They.

That bull is massive.

So it's like, here's it. But that's a juxtaposition is to me, that was my Israel Adesanya moment about. I will never be happier. But look how. Look how different those moments are. One's in front of a huge crowd, millions of People watching, being, you know, getting all that attention from all those people, and then I'm. I guarantee just as happy or happier right there. Isn't that crazy?

It is crazy.

Yeah. That's your thing. And you'll find your thing.

Yeah, Yeah.

I always talk about that. Like, people just trying to find what's your thing. Yeah, my thing's outdoors in bowing.

So Israel's thing is fighting. So for. For him, that's the pinnacle. For us, whatever your thing is, get to the pinnacle. Right. That's a lesson.

Find. Find happiness in that. Do you think whatever it is, whatever.

It is for you, that you talking about your daughter catching that fish, and it's like this primal instinct inside of her that just flares up that fighters have that same feeling? Like it's a primal feeling.

Oh, 100. Yeah. It's a little more conflicted, Doug, depending upon how bad you hurt your opponent, when you hurt him really bad, it's very. It's a very conflicting moment because, you know, that could have been you. Some guys don't get that feeling. Some guys, they're like, good him. But a lot of guys, it's like, woof. There's some guys that knock a guy out real bad, and then they almost want to retire afterwards. They're just like, I don't want to do that to anybody anymore. You know, Especially guys that have killed. Guys like Ray Mancini when he killed Duck Coo Kim. I don't think he was ever the same again. There's a few guys like that in history that have had boxing matches where they killed a guy and then they were kind of never, never the same after that.

Yeah, that's some scary.

Yeah. Because you realize, like, this is what. This is what you're doing.

Yeah.

This. This could lead to that happening to you. And you think about your kids watching on TV and crying or even worse there while you're getting beat up. I always freak out when guys bring their kids. I'm like, oh, man. Bringing a kid to a fight, you know?

Yeah.

I've seen guys get knocked out in front of their kids, and it's particularly devastating. Particularly devastating. Especially when you really like the guy. It's rough. It's a rough way to make a living. But those guys, when they get that belt strapped around them, when their hands get raised and the whole audience screams and cheers, it's like, that's a special moment. That's a special moment that very few people ever get to experience unless they.

Kill a bull in the wilderness.

I don't even know if it's the same, they're all, they're all. It's a different kind of happiness, I think yours is more sustained, yours lasts longer.

That's what I say. It's like, I don't know, like Israel said he was happy. Is that. I guess that's what it is.

But you know what the reality is? After the happiness dies off for a couple of days, then you start thinking about your next fight and you immediately start getting that anxiety.

I think that's a good drive in life though, right? Because you don't just do that elk hunt and be like, I'm done now.

Right.

You know, it's like, not, what's the next one? You know, and it's like that constant pursuit.

And it's also like constantly recognizing that you're always going to be at least trying to get better. You're always trying to get better. Anything that is going to give you real happiness is going to be very difficult because you're not really going to ever be able to master it. Whatever it is, it's like that's where it is. It's in the pursuit of it. And along the way recognizing that, you consistently keep getting better. But it's like a, a, there's a dream that you're chasing that you're never going to get to. You're never going to get to. Bow hunting perfection. It doesn't exist.

Right.

You can get really close. You've gotten really, really close. But we're human and it's the wild and there's all sorts of weird variables that happen. There's branches and sticks and wind and this and that, and it's impossible to be perfect.

Yeah.

And that's part of the magic of it. Yeah. Part of the magic of it is that when you're in the moment and it's all happening, it's all so open ended, like any result can take place. You really do not know how this is all going to go down. You haven't seen it all play out. And you might have imagined how it's going to play out, but it's going to play out in unique situations. Some of them will be similar, some of them will be completely different.

Yeah.

And you've got to figure it out. Like you were telling me that crazy story that I was talking to you about, the podcast where you're shooting down at this bull, like from like a cliff, like straight down.

Yeah. San Carlos this year. It was. So I arranged the bull, it was a huge cliff. And what I thought is, I'd get up there, and I'd be able to see the flat. And there was some bulls down there. It's a tough year in. In Arizona, the drought. But from that cliff, I thought that'd be a great vantage point to see where these bulls were in. Plant a stock. So get way up there. Actually, there's sheep right above us, too. It's like crazy rugged country. But get up there on that cliff, and I'm look kind of looking out over the expanse there. And then I look straight down. Below me, there's this big bull and, like, straight down, and I'm like. It's like if you're hunting mule deer, you know, they always bed up against the cliffs because so their back's protected, the wind's coming up. They can monitor the down below them with their nose. They know nothing's coming from the back. That's how mule deer bed to survive. Well, this bull had done that same thing. And it was. It had just stood up from the base of the cliff, and I looked down.

I range at 42 yards, which people who know if it's the range finder is telling you to shoot for 42. That means straight down. That means it's probably close to 60 yards, you know, because the range. The rangefinder does a calculation. If you shoot flat, that's the gravity affects one thing. If you shoot straight down, gravity has less effect. So it's saying even though it's further, you would shoot for less distance is how that works. So it told me to shoot for 42. That means it's at probably 60, straight down. And that's a long shot with it with a bow. And then I had to shooting straight down. I had to. I thought that I was like going to go straight through his spine because I was straight above him. I'm like, well, I'm going to come right behind the shoulders, straight through his spine into his vitals. I thought that should do it. So shoot. I hit that bull like about, I would say an inch off the spine. I show it. There's a video of it on that, the video we just watched for people who are interested. But about an inch off that spine into his chest, and the bull went about 100 yards.

But yeah, it was. I've never. I've never done a shot like that before in my life. You know, you think about different scenarios. I had never even thought about one like that on a boa l at that distance, at that angle.

So that is even. So where.

Yeah, it's. It's back. This is The. That's the Winaha bull. But it's back. Jamie, About. I was talking about getting ready for this hunt, and it shows, like, a few clips of the bull I killed in Colorado, then the Arizona bull. Then I did another hunt in Utah, and I killed a bull there to get prepared for. For the Oregon hunt. But, yeah, it was just. I'd never even really thought that that shot would be a potential one.

The Oregon hunt is crazy because of the wilderness is so. So dense.

Yes.

Oregon is nuts.

Forest hunt.

It's a. It's like a rainforest.

It's like Jurassic Park. And that's in eastern Oregon. That's the dry part of the state.

That's crazy.

But it's such. Such a hole there. So much moisture down there that it turned into, like, Jurassic park with that bull coming in, bugling. It was like a dinosaur.

There's nothing that matches that. That aspect of elk hunting makes it so much cooler.

Yeah.

Is the sound they make when they're coming in. Because it's just like all of your. Your pores pop up.

Yeah.

It's like you get goosebumps all over your body. Your back, your neck. The hair stands up. It's like the scream is like, whoa.

Right?

It's so. It is my favorite sound. It's amazing.

They're incredible.

When you hear. When you're close and there's an elk screaming through the woods and he's coming close towards you, that. That. The thrill of that is like nothing else. Like nothing else.

No. And people who haven't heard it, they hear that, and they're like, what the is that?

Right.

It's. It's weird that there's an animal on this planet that makes that noise. If. If we hadn't done this our whole lives and we heard, that would be like, what is going on?

Yeah. If you had done what Adam did in Japan and not research, like, what. What kind of animals are in the area and you were camping out and you heard that scream, you'd be like, oh, my God, we're surrounded by demons now.

I've had people tell me stories like, there's something really weird in the woods there.

Yeah.

And then. But you find out it's like fallow deer or red deer living in there. And it's like just their breathing period, and they're just roaring and just people like, what the is that? Oh, it's like. Actually, it's just a deer stag.

Have the craziest roar. It's such a weird.

Actually make a real sound compared to.

A yeah, yeah, well, like an African lion. Because I heard those when I was hunting over there. Like they're by the river and so we're like an African lion in the middle of the night. They're. Oh yeah, like, oh my God. It just like reverberates through the whatever. We were jungles.

If there's anything that lights up your DNA. Oh God, the sound of lion must just chill yourself.

Nothing like that either. Nothing like that either. But you know, here's one. Here's an exciting thing so for people listening that maybe didn't grow up hunting. What? We were talking about this in the green, green room last night when we were getting high off all the smoke.

But we weren't smoking, but, but we got high.

It's. What's crazy is nowadays, you know, we're 58, you're 45. Right. But we're just getting even better physically, so. So you say you can't master bow hunting, right? Because you only had a certain window. Like normally how hunting works is you're young and strong, all the endurance in the world, but you don't know shit, right? You don't have the experience. So by the time you get the experience and you're old and broke down, you can't take advantage of the experience. So you have to have a wisdom, the wisdom you gained when you're young, you utilize when you're old to kill. Well, now we can gain all that experience and wisdom. Like I've been, I've been, you know, hunting for 40 some years and I'm also at the best I've ever been physically. You marry those two up, look out.

That's what's nuts is that didn't exist before, right?

So like we go to ways to wealth today and get stem cell and get, you know, the IV treatments and get everything else to be able to operate at our absolute prime at 58 years old with 40 years of experience. Yeah, that's, that's tough. That's. You're going to have success if you do it right. So yeah, not everybody's going to be in that situation where they grew up hunting like me. But you even think about jelly roll at 41 years old. So he just started bow hunting. You started bow hunting in your 40s and now, now you've been doing it for, you know, 15 years and you're getting better. So there's, there's hope. Hope for even people 40, 50 or whatever. With this new science and treatment and supplements and things like that, you can still be very active and still Take on new, intense endeavors like bow hunting or hunting. Just hunting in general, and have success, and it might change your entire life. Like, Jelly Roll is a different person.

Yeah.

Yeah.

In two years, he's a different person, a different human. That should be exciting for people listening.

Yeah. They should learn that you could do it, too. And it's that and having more energy. Like, say if you're not into bow hunting, you say if you're not, you know, like, I don't want to be a marathon runner. Whatever. Whatever it is. If your body is healthier, whatever the thing you do, you're going to be better. You're going to have more energy.

Well, you could be better at it.

You're going to be better at it. You're going to have, like. Why do people, like, cognitively decline when they get older? Well, a big part of it is you're declining overall. Everything's declining. Everything about you is declining. Of course, your brain is declining as well. Like, your. Your entire exist is fading. But the more you can have energy, the more you have vitality. The more you can do what I don't care if you play chess, whatever the fuck it is that you like to do, paint, whatever it is you like to do, the more energy you have, the more energy you'll be able to apply to that thing you do.

The more enjoyable it is, the better quality of life, the happier you are.

Including all the other stuff. You know, just being with your family, you'll have more energy to do stuff. Stuff you'll be more. You'll have more life. You'll have more life energy.

Here's one mindset I've tried to take on, especially with hunting, because that's all I really care about, is improving and learning on every time. And I could even think about, like, I was telling somebody, I don't know who, but on every. I try to learn something on every stock. And when I think about when you killed the sable the other day. So we're there, and you have to weigh out so many things on a stock when you're getting ready to kill an animal or potentially kill an animal. But we're thinking about, okay, we have the wind. The wind is. That's the biggest thing with bow hunting. So I knew where the wind was. But then also it's like, well, do we go stay in the shade so the sun wouldn't blind you as it was going down? But if we stay in the shade, we're not perfectly downwind. So I'm like, well, the sun's going to Set the winds change because thermals change. If we're to the side in the shade, so you don't have to deal with the sun, then when that wind becomes unstable, it's more likely to smell us. So we should be all the way downwind.

But that means we're going to have to shoot before the sun gets too low to where it's not blinding you. To get to the side, then you have to figure out what's the path to get there to where we're not making noise for the animal to hear. Well, it's straight to the. I don't know if you remember that tree. And I said, head straight to that tree. And from that tree, then I was thinking, you should have a lane because there was brush all around. But it looked to me like from that tree, you would have a lane to shoot at 28 yards. But you're still factoring all these. The wind, the sun, everything else. What's the animal going to do? It's just so fascinating to think about. But I know some people hunt, and I don't think they think about it in those details. You know what I mean? They're just kind of like, oh, there's an animal. What do I do? But, like, that's not how you master the moment. You master the moment by. And I said this a lot of times, too. On many of these hunts, I was telling Jelly Roll this.

I was like, everything matters. Everything. The little thing matters. The big things obviously matter, but everything matters. And that's what hunting teaches us. And in life, you can make it through regular life on this fake world that I keep talking about by ignoring a lot of things. Not on a hunt.

Yeah, we had to think about a lot of things on that stock.

On a hunt, everything matters.

And one of the big ones that we had to think about was as the husband, that sun was dropping. So we were standing there waiting for this sable to get up. It had bedded, and it didn't know we were there. And we creeped into the spot. We were slowly.

Do you remember that? And do. So do you remember that tactic?

Yeah.

Remember what I said?

Yeah.

If you move slow enough, they won't pick it up.

Right.

Because they look for movement. So we were loop. We were moving like, you know, like an inch every 30 seconds. We were, like, barely moving.

Because what I found is animals. I've been in the wide open on a caribou. Went right at it, but so slow. It was just like, that can't be anything. Nothing does that.

No sideways movement. Reist zuseiner omer driftspannen wie maltesetno linder zehr wakes und ecklert alles undeveloped. Podcast.

No. And just. But steady and slow, and they just won't spook.

Yeah. And we had to figure out where to stand. And then when we got where we were, as we were standing there, we were standing there for quite a while. I realized, oh, this sun is going to be impossible because it's slowly lowering in the sky, and it's literally above this sable's head now. And I'm like, okay, we don't get this thing to stand up, I'm not gonna be able to see it because I. I had my hat on, right? So I blocked myself from the hat. And then I was trying to train my eyes to just look at it through, you know, just, like, the haze of the sun. I was like, this is gonna be a real problem. So we decided, let's get him to stand up. So Cam took his arrow out of his quiver and started tapping on this branch and then started, like, moving towards it. And sable are beasts, bro.

Yeah.

First of all, those motherfuckers, they. They kill lions occasionally. Like, they get attacked, and they're. They're fierce. Like, they're not. So it wasn't exactly easy to spook.

Right.

So you had to kind of, like, move towards a little bit. And then it started grunting at you, like, fuck off. Fuck off, bitch. And then finally it stood up. And when it stood up, up, we got them.

Yeah.

But it was, you know, it was a shot where I was like, I gotta do this real soon, because otherwise I'm not gonna be able to see.

Yeah.

Fortunately, I could. And I can get the pin right where it needed to be. But it was like I was. And I. I was telling you afterwards, I was like, I avoid shooting into the sun.

Yeah.

When I have my targets, I always put a target in the other way, so. And I'm like, I can't do that anymore. Now I have to start shooting into the sun sometimes.

Practice it all.

You got to get that feeling because. Because that had happened also. On a hunt with Tom Land. We were up in Utah, and this bull was a nice bull. It was about 60 yards, and it was coming across this ridge. The sun was right in my eyes, and he's like, why didn't you shoot? I was like, I. I just couldn't. It was too. Too blurry. It was too. The sun was right fucking there. And I remember thinking that at that time. This was years ago, thinking at that Time I need to shoot into the sun, and I. Yeah, it won't come up. I just won't take the shot. I'll do what I did, then I won't take the shot.

And if you're not comfortable, you don't.

Have to take the shot in this situation. I was like, I know it's not a long shot. It's only 28 yards, and it's a big animal, and I'm. I'm pretty confident I got this. I was like, I gotta factor all these things in and then not let doubt creep into my head. You know, stay totally calm. So there's all these things going on simultaneously.

That's a lot. Lot. It's a lot to manage.

It's a lot.

But it. But also a lot to. A lot of factors to consider and then learn from.

Yeah.

Oh, I learned a lot from that hunt. I learned a lot. First of all, I learned how tough sable are. That's the same experience, like I told you I had with Neil guy that I shot that Neil guy in South Texas. And it ran like. I didn't even hit it. I hit it perfect. The arrow went right through him. It was the arrow. We found the arrow 30 yards past where I hit. It was covered in blood, so we knew he was dead. But he ran like he never even got hit. He ran full speed like a cheetah. It was crazy. And the. The guide I was with is like, yeah, man. They grew up around tigers. Like, these things evolved around tigers. Like, they don't just take getting hit and go, oh, no, I'm in trouble. They fucking run. They're so tough and they barely bleed. That's the other thing about these. These animals that grow up around big predators, boy, they clog up their holes really quick. They don't leave much of a blood trail. It's not like an elk or a deer. It's different.

Yeah. I think Adam Addict explains this. Well, sometimes you talk about when you hit them, if they're stretched out, then when they're not stretched out, you know, it's like it just changes that. That the entrance wound and the exit wound, if there is one, it just changes. There's different layers of muscle and hide over it where it just blocks up that blood.

It seems like they clog up quicker, too. Just period. Like, whatever their anatomy is, the difference is when you hit them, they don't. They just don't bleed much.

Yeah. I got a buddy that always, you know, someone's like, it was the perfect shot. And it's like well, actually, it wasn't, because it'd be dead already, you know, so it's like. And I know what you're saying, but the truth is double lungs is double lungs. And there's so many variations, like that reaction. They close up the gap or what broader do you use? And if the animal's breathing out when the arrow shoots it through the lungs, or whether it's just taking a bunch of oxygen in, you know, there's a larger target. Yeah. And there's all those different. Plus just. Just more energy to run on. Right. And then, you know, you'll see certain hunters that shoot something, it's not even dead yet, and they're like, yeah.

And start.

Yahoo. And it's like, what? Shut the up. Because that brings on an adrenaline rush. Animals can run further, whereas you just want a nice, relaxed setup. You know, it's just a hit. They don't know what's going on. The beauty of the bow because it's so quiet. There's not a loud gunshot behind it or anything. And then, you know, just so they're relaxed, they don't want to run as fast. Just they want to give up earlier because they've got nothing to spook from or fight from. So, you know.

And they don't know what happened. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes they think they got jabbed by another bull or something. Like, what happened? Yeah, because everything's crazy. They're all rutting and screaming at each other and clashing antlers and all of a sudden, whack. Like, what the.

Is that right?

Utah? This year, the bull that I shot, he'd just been in the fight with another bull, so he was all revved up from that other bull. So I literally hit him, and he just. He thought he got poked by an antler from another bull, you know, and he went 20 yards, was standing for 14 seconds. Drop dead. Nice, beautiful, peaceful. Right in front of me. They don't all happen like that, but that's what we're after.

That's what you're after. That's why you practice. That's why you shoot so many arrows. To have it drop right in front of you is the greatest thing ever.

And I think that does impact the taste of the meat, too. If you don't have them shoot that adrenaline back through their body where it's a peaceful death, I think it does impact the taste.

That's what they say.

Yeah.

Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, don't they do that with. When they want to call animals, like. Like. Or if they want to Shoot animals. Rather not call them, shoot them for commercial purposes. They shoot them in the head, right?

Yeah, they put a bolt in their head, but yeah, I mean, no, I.

Mean, like, like in lanai, like Axis deer. Yeah, they shoot them in the head, definitely.

No, but like, even like when they kill cattle, they're not getting those things.

Wow.

Right. Of course, of course. You want them to be as calm as possible. The opposite of what that mountain lion did to that cow. Imagine eating that. Yeah, imagine you ate that cow. That would be like. Yeah, I got anxiety probably. It's probably in the meat itself.

I got issues. Taking it back to the health journey, how you were saying, like, you know, where we are now with, you know, modern treatments and wellness is. Is incredible. Like, I feel like. Like my. I feel like my body's the best it's ever been, you know, and I'm obviously the oldest I've ever been, which is crazy to think of. Like, how can. How can I feel better than I do? How can I feel better now than I did in my early 20s? You know, we're probably out any injuries and stuff like that. So it's quite. And I've got you to thank for that by introducing me to Brigham and Waste the World, so.

Oh, my pleasure. I want more people to know about it. I want everybody to be healthy. It's possible.

Yeah.

You can get healthier. Like, look at Jelly Roll. The guy was 500 plus pounds and now he's running. Now that's incredible. 10K. The day before he came to the studio and then when we went to the gym together and he ran 2.6 miles on the treadmill while he was talking. We're laughing, he's joking around. They don't know me, son. He's having a good old time. And, you know, he just seemed so happy. We got in the sauna together. We were live laughing. It's like he's just a different guy. He's got so much and he's so excited about this journey that he's on this journey of self improvement, his journey of health. He's going to be there for his kids, he's going to be there for his wife. Now he's worried about dying. Before he told a story about laying on his arm and he couldn't get up. He was trapped and he didn't have. In bed, in bed, he couldn't get up and he thought he was going to die. He's like, I'm so big that I'm laid on my arm and I don't have the strength to get out of this position because I'm so big.

What a change.

And now he's running and bow hunting.

Yeah, he's substance now. Like, that's. Like that substance will just keep him going, you know, to find those things and what makes him happy.

And, you know, the problem is a lot of people oftentimes compare themselves to other people that are already on that path. This is another thing that we talked about. You just get on the path. Don't worry about how people are ahead of you. Just, you be ahead of yourself next week, you're ahead of where you were this week, the week after that, you'll be ahead of you. It's just a path. Just get so. So what if other people have been on the path further than you? Like, that's how you get better at stuff. And that. That is what's exciting about life, is this path of improvement. And whatever you do and actually being a human being, be a better human. You can do that. Everybody can get on that path.

Yeah. Yeah. It's just. That's what I told Jelly is, you know, you can wander around off the path for your whole life and never really have, like, fuck, I never. Never really figured it out. But once you make it, like. Like where he's on, you know, being healthy, eating better, exercising, he. You know, the mountains have given him. I always say the mountains heal or nature heals. So he's there now. It's like, yeah, of course there's people who are way ahead because they've been on it longer. There's people who are not quite on it. Maybe they're going to be faster than him and they pass him, but all on the right path, head in the right direction. That's a beautiful place to be. And that's where he's at.

It is. And one of the things that I said to Jelly when we're on the podcast, I was like, what you're doing is inspiring millions of people to live a better life, 100%. What you're doing is so beneficial to human beings all over the world, because now millions of people have seen that podcast. Millions of people have heard that story. Millions of people have seen those clips that have been shared all throughout social media. And how many people got excited by that? And it gave them fuel and energy to want to go do something. It gave them that inspiration that we all desperately crave to want to go out and take those first fucking steps. And then once you do that, then you're operating on momentum. And it's so Much easier. This is another thing that people have to understand. The first steps are the hardest. It's so hard to move. It's so hard to get going. But once you get going, then you operate on momentum. Once you have a good day, then you go, I did it. I had a good day. Let's do it again tomorrow. And then you get excited about it and you look forward to waking up.

And then you get through it that day like, we fucking did it again. And now I'm looking forward to. Now I'm eating healthier. Now I cut off the sugar. Now I'm drinking water with electrolytes. And now I'm, I'm feeling better. I have more energy and just keep going. Yeah, just keep going. Momentum is so much easier than that. First step. The first step of changing your life is so hard because we're just so afraid of pain. We're so afraid of suffering. We're so afraid of like just the discomfort. We've been programmed to think that discomfort is a bad thing.

It's not.

Yeah, it's not. It's necessary.

I think that, that Joey Roll might. I mean I think we've talked about this, but could he impact more people than anyone ever has in that regard?

100 we were talking about that today.

100 because it's like, it's not like, you know, even Israel or your favorite NFL guy or NBA, they're, they're elite, Right. So when they succeed, you're like, ah, fuck. Of course, you know, he's six eight, two, 60. Of course he's going to be great. But when you see somebody like Jelly Roll who came from £540, that's like he's already at the furthest end of like, you know, like what you'd have to overcome.

Yes.

And for him to do that, anybody else is closer to the, to the goal than he's. He was at that time. So it's like nobody's in worse shape really.

Right.

You know, literally morbidly obese.

You can't be in worse shape on. You know, and if he's doing it, everyone can do it. Everyone who has, who has that. Some. Something inside him. And maybe he's going to give them that something 100%.

And he's way more famous than anybody who's ever done this before.

Right.

That's the most important aspect of it. He's loved by so many people. So how many Jelly Roll fans loved him because he was like them. He was big like them. Super talented, amazing guy who was also big like, oh my God, I thought I was a big slob. And no one's going to love. Meanwhile, everybody loves jelly roll. So they love jelly. And then also jelly rolls changes life. Like, how many people are sitting there watching him and listening to him going, I think I could do it. He did it. I think I can do it.

Yeah.

And you just do it the way he, you know, like, he didn't start out running marathons. He tried to go for a walk.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, he would call.

His walk his run because he couldn't run.

Right.

But he'd say, tell his family, his wife and that he's going to go out on his run. There's not one step of running. But the, the mindset, the story he told himself was he was running. So it's that self talk, you know, how we talk to ourselves is important. So he would tell himself, I'm gonna go run. Even though there's no not a step of running involved. But that led to running. That mindset, that, that approach of like, I'm winning today, I'm winning. It's not a run, it's a walk, but it's going to be a run. Done.

You know, that's got to be a massive mental achievement for him too, because I'm sure that he had a lot of mind weight to lose as well. Because jail. He was in jail. Right. Substance abuse, no doubt. Probably a lot of, like, that's a lot of negative stuff in someone's head. So to lose that as well. And you told me that he's such a positive person, so to like, you know, he lost a bunch of weight, which is incredible. But what he's done to his mind, which we may never know, is really incredible too. Like, like, that's why I was saying to you this morning, this might be one of the best modern day stories of a person changing their life. When you look at Jelly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And couldn't be a better representative of someone who has gone through the struggle and then come out this amazing person. Like, he's an amazing guy like this. There's very few humans that are so kind and friendly and warm. And when he hugs you, he hugs you with his soul. Like he hugs you with his whole body and his soul. He's like a perfect person to be the inspiration for people to improve their life.

Well, and that was so touching. Like when you shared the Grand Ole Opry.

Yeah.

Inclusion for Jelly Roll from Craig Morgan. And he said, joe, can I get a hug? I mean, two men. And to me that was like so endearing, but also so important to show that it's okay for men to say, yeah, can I get a hug?

I mean, it was a man crying. It was one of the most inspirational things you could ever watch.

I mean, but it takes a certain type or it's one of. One who does stuff like that. Like him. His heart. That's what I say. He's a big man, but he's got the biggest heart of anybody I've ever met. And that was an example of it. Like he just wanted love.

Yeah, he's a. He's a very important figure in our culture. He really is. He really is. You know, especially now. He always was. His music just alone is important because it's beautiful music, but the beautiful music is the expression of a beautiful soul, you know. And now he's also on this path of self improvement. And it's amazing.

Yeah, that title of his album, beautifully broken. I mean, it's so perfect.

Yeah, it is.

And he's. He's. He was broken. Probably will always be broken. In some ways we all are. But he's putting himself back together and man, he's.

Are we all broken or do we all have negative thoughts from the past?

Are we telling ourselves we're broken? Yeah, maybe that's it. Maybe that's our self talk.

Obviously we're functional, so we're not broken. You know, it's not that we're broken.

It's just a doubt. The self doubt.

Well, everyone's gonna. You're gonna. You're. It's like you're a human being. The only way you figure out how to get good at something is you have to. It has to be a puzzle. Puzzles include doubt. Yeah, it's always going to be there. There's no getting around it.

No, it's not.

It's.

But it's part. It ends up being the beauty of it, right? Yes, that's it.

That's the beauty of it. And then whatever you do doesn't. You don't have to bow hunt. It's like you probably should, but you don't have to. Yeah, it could be anything else, but.

Yeah, just any struggle in life, you know, that's how I look at anything like that. That's testing or trialing or.

And it should be. It should be interesting for you too. Should be an interesting thing. That's. The people also have this weird habit of looking at the mind in terms of only being valuable in human created endeavors, like the mind only being valuable in mathematics, the mind only being Valuable in your ability to recite literature and your, your, your knowledge that you've gained through schooling. Like. No, no, the mind, the, the mind manages stressful situations too. That's an important aspect of intelligence, is your intelligence in being able to navigate difficult things. That is all your mind. You're using your mind like bow hunting has so much, so many elements of intelligence that are woven into it. And the difference between a successful person who bow hunts and an unsuccessful person is experience and practice, but also the mind being able to learn from each individual situation and experience and get better and accumulate all this knowledge over time. You know, it's got a deep, deep learning curve. It's very deep. And the people that don't experience it and then have this classification in their head of what intelligence is. Intelligence means. You got a PhD.

I know a lot of people with PhD that are fools. They're fools. They're emotional children. They're filled with ego and resentment and they're shitty and nasty to people. They're fools. So they're not smart. They're just. They have a functional mind. They've applied to human endeavors only.

Right.

And they've never, Never done the big thing. Never done the whole package. Never put it all together.

Yeah. And I think, I think another key to being intelligent, I don't know if it's the key, but having kids, I think is a big part of growth. And to me, it's like I, I lump like intelligence, just, just life experience into the, the package we'd call intelligence. But like, hunting teaches us that, of course. But also raising kids and, and being responsible for a family. Oh, yeah, I think that's another. It's like, yeah, school doesn't teach you that. And like, the, the, the degree you got doesn't. Doesn't signify that. But I don't know. I think that's a big part of it too.

It's a giant learning experience, that's for damn sure. And it also teaches you way more compassion. It just teaches you to be way more loving and kind and, and you also just you. You understand from watching a baby become an amazing adult human being, you get to understand all the elements that are involved in this child's development and all the trials and tribulations. How you gotta, like, let them fall sometimes.

Yeah.

And then help them pick themselves back up and talk to them through it. And when they're down, explain like, I've been down too. I'm always down. I fucked up everything. I was. Whenever my kids would do anything wrong, one of the things I'd always say to them if I was upset at them. I said, listen, I did everything that you did. I've done all this stuff. It's okay. But you can't do it. And this is why, like, I've screwed up everything. I've done things I shouldn't have done. I'm doing exactly what you're doing right now. I've done it even worse. You're a better kid than I was. Was. Yeah, I always say that. So they don't think that, like, I'm without fault. I always say I've done it all, but I got through it on the other side. Now, I'm your dad. And the reason why I'm telling you this is because I love you. And I'm not telling. I'm not. I'm not trying to, like, be upset at you because I'm mean. Like, I'm trying to help you live a better life. And that's how I try to communicate with him about it.

So in. In my head, that perspective opens up other lanes of intelligence. That's. That's what I'm saying. It's like, you ha. You can't be the. Your highest form without that.

Right. You're challenged. You're challenged.

Yeah.

And you're also challenged by the discipline of it. And you, you know, you. You have people that rely on you. And that is, you can't that off. You can't just like, not show up for work. You can't just, you know, I just feel like sleeping in today and I'm taking a month off. Like, you can't do that. You have people that rely on you. And also you're setting an example for them that they're going to learn from the people that. And your kids are a great example of that. The children of people that are very disciplined almost always have a higher threshold of discipline. I notice it. I see it in your kids, for sure. I see it in my kids. They have more of an understanding of what's necessary in order to get things done and to be successful. Now, if you're a person who's a parent and you shirk every responsibility, you lie, you. You steal, you. You do things you're not supposed. You take shortcuts, you. You're not truthful, you're. Whatever you're doing, where your kids get to see like, oh, my parent is a kind of a fuckhead. You know, my parent is kind of one of two things happens.

Either you emulate your parents and you be kind of a fuckhead. Or you go, I don't like that. And I'm never gonna be like that. Some of my friends that grew up with alcoholic parents, they've never had a drink in their fucking life and they never will. They're like, I am never touching that shit. I see what that's like because I saw my dad lose his fucking job, lose his house, lose this, lose that, get arrested for dwi, get in a bar fight. My dad's a fucking loser and I'm not gonna be that guy. So. But it's, it's a toss up.

Or some might emulate that.

Some might emulate. Yeah, yeah. I mean, some. You see your dad's a drug addict. Like, let me try, right?

I grew up like that with a couple of closer friends. And these closer friends were like, I'm never going to be like my dad. Like, we'll, we'll. To the core, we'll like that. We're never going to be like our fathers. And, and that's one of the reasons I don't drink, because my father was a horrible alcoholic. And even though when I drink I'm happy, I. I'm just turned off it. So I don't want to do it. And I guess I've gone long enough now. That doesn't interest me. And then I had another friend that I cut off because he turned out to be exactly like his dad. And even though he, the whole time he was like me, I'm never going to be like my father. I'm going to be the opposite. For some reason, some people just go down the same path.

I think it's also the stress of life. It's. Sometimes it's overwhelming. You know, this, this thing that we look forward to in bow hunting, this like not knowing what's going to happen. Like, you get out there, it's early in the morning, you put your pack on, you don't know what, what's gonna happen today. Who knows? Some people hate that feeling. They hate that feeling of not knowing what's gonna happen. And the uncertainty about your career and job is a weird uncertainty. It depends on so many factors that are sometimes out of your control. And people just, they get overwhelmed and they just wanna escape. They just wanna escape. And maybe they're doing a job they don't enjoy doing, and then the only time they feel good is when they're drunk. So they just get. Get off work and they can't wait to meet their boys and have a laugh. And next thing you know, you're drinking and one day turns into A month. And that's your.

It's just. That's distraction. They want to be distracted off their life or whatever in this world will.

Give you a lot of distractions. You could play video games and get hammered and do heroin. Yeah. Whatever it is. Fill in the blank, man. You could find a lot of stuff that's not going to be beneficial for you.

Yeah. It's one thing that I think the. Well, drinking and whatever. But I think the biggest negative thing a parent can offer their kids is blaming other. Like all. It's always somebody else's fault.

Right.

So it's like this discussion at the house, you know, because kids hear everything. Right. So when the dad's coming home and he's bitching about his boss or the guy at work or he's getting over for this. Or I could do that too. But. But that guy kissed ass. That's why he got that. Or the must be nice. Whatever. Like these excuse makers. You're just fucking sabotaging your kids. It's just that you never get anywhere by blaming other people for where you're at. And so many people do that because they won't accept personal responsibility for their actions or for their place in life.

And I don't even think it necessarily. It's their fault. I think they've. A lot of them have never seen an example of an extraordinary person who doesn't do that. They're not. There's. It's rare to find a person, unfortunately in this world, especially in society, it's rare to find a person of great character, A person who's just got impeccable character and is always truthful and is work, works really hard and is loved by a lot of people. It's rare. It's rare. And so they've never experienced it. They never been around it.

Yeah.

And so they don't even know what it is.

Right. They don't know that they're sabotaging.

Yeah. And sometimes that's one of the real places where a guy like Jelly Roll can. Can change people's lives is because he does talk about all of the negative shit that he's experienced and all the negative influences and all the bad people that he was around and how he was living that life. He was trapped in that way.

Yeah.

And now he's not anymore.

And, and, and he. So the big things, substance, criminal, lie, overweight, all those. Those are usually the big things. And he overcame all of them.

All of them.

So it's like that's where that power comes from. Where to Influence so many people. It's because. So what was your issue again? Yeah, well, Jelly rolled. Yeah, he overcame that. Wait, was there something else? Oh, that too. I mean, yeah, it's everything. All the big things he's overcome. So what, what, what else is there? What else are you going to blame?

You just gotta find a thing. Find a thing. Get on a path.

Yeah, get moving on the path.

Get moving.

I'm gonna go to the bathroom.

Sorry, lads. All right.

What? See, I told you.

It's got that Australian bladder. It's upside down.

No, it's the iv. I told him, I said, I said, hey, put all that in like this much whatever fluid because I don't want to have to take a piss.

I wonder if it works as good that way.

They made it super concentrated.

Did, did they really?

Yeah, they did.

That's hilarious. Why don't you just like, wait and pee? I don't mind peeing, but every time I've done that when I come here after an iv, I do the same thing after pee.

Yeah, I know.

Or after the sauna. Because after the sauna I always drink this giant 64 ounce thing of water and electrolytes. And then like an hour and a half in the podcast, I'm like, oh.

No, that hits Jelly roll. Had he learned that lesson in the blind? Because we were sitting for hours and like, if you haven't ever been in a position where, you know, you, you can't just get out and go pee or whatever, then you're like, ooh, I didn't know what this holding, you know. He said he was gonna piss his pants. It's like, he's like, had to make a hole in the blind and pee into covered up with. Because I was like, okay, just make a little hole covered up with dirt, whatever. And that's what he did. But yeah, that's pretty. When you got a piss, it could be miserable.

Well, there's a mental challenge of sitting still for long periods of time. Like, I've only tree stand hunted once. I did it at Dudley's place in Iowa. Yeah, and the thing about Iowa is, first of all, it's in November that you're hunting and it's so fucking cold. It's so cold and you have to sit still, right? You can't fucking move a muscle. And you're out there for hours and hours and hours just hoping a deer gets it within bow range. And the only reason why they do is just. They just happen to be wandering, right? And it's total luck. It's Complete luck. I mean, that's why those guys, like a lot of those like real psycho Lee Lakoski guys, they. They'll out there, out there for months at a time.

Yeah.

They'll hunt a single buck for like 38 days or however long the season is. And they're in that damn blind every day or they're in that tree every day, just dark to dark, easing their dick off, just huddling up with mittens and shit. And. And then when the, and sometimes when, if you have a, like a powerful ball, like you pull back, like when it's zero degrees outside and you go to pull that thing back, you're like tough.

You might not get it back.

No.

Yeah.

Oh no.

And that's a helpless feeling.

Oh no.

Nowadays. So back in the day, back when I used to, you know, I still tree stand hunt, you know, for blacktail sometimes. But phones have changed, like how long you can stay because you can just fuck around on your phone now.

Oh, that's true.

And then also there's heated vests, heated socks.

Yeah.

So you can have like it's still just standing in a tree or sitting in a tree for 14 hours. Terrible.

Still terrible, terrible. Even when all that stuff, it's a.

Little easier, but pretty terrible.

Well, thankfully gear's a lot better too. Like layering systems. And you could stay like, you could stay alive. Let me put it that way. You're not going to be comfortable, but you could stay alive out there. Degrees sitting still.

Dude, I didn't. So I, you know, signed on to Sitka now. But I hadn't other things. I was, you know, under armor, different whatever. And I guess I had never had good gear my entire life because I didn't know I didn't have to be miserable in a tree stand. And so the Sid Kissimmee, I don't know what it is, it's like some side res sideways zip jacket or. Yeah, it's a jacket. It's a. I can't remember what it's called, but it's polar fleece. And I was like up there going, this is awesome. I feel good, I'm not freezing. And I had never. So like I said, I've bow hunted my whole life, I guess always just had like that wasn't the best and just thought, ah, it's part of the deal.

Not just that, it doesn't restrict any of your movement.

No. I used to have to wear like seven hoodies. Right. Trying to pull a bow with seven hoodies on. But that's how I had to stay warm. So with the Sitka stuff with John, John Barclays and he's kind of in design and he's a bow hunter himself, but I can have this on and it's not restrictive. I can pull my bow and you know, it's not. This isn't like a ad for Sitka. There's. If there's other stuff out there that does that too, great. I just don't know about it because I'd never had it.

But.

But man, that, that works good.

There's a bunch of high level gear that's out there, but it's like whatever they've done with Sitka, they've made it so that everything works perfectly. They've dialed it in perfectly. The pants, they have the built in knee. Knee pads, which is huge. I love those pants. So when you're crawling on like they're the perfect knee pads. They're super lightweight, but you could sneak around on stuff on your knees and not be in agony.

Right.

And it doesn't restrict your movement at all.

The level of detail they have now on these clothes. Yeah, is, is.

And it's more fitted. You know, I remember like stuff that we used to use. We used to complain about it together, but it's like, who are they making these pants for when the legs are that wide at the bottom still? So you're walking along hunting and it's.

Just like bell bottoms and they get wet, they're flopping around and it makes me so pissed. I would take pictures and send a kip when he was at Under Armor or like at the Pocket or something. I'm like, what the is going on? But yeah, this, this stuff fits good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, it's just, I mean, that's one of the reasons to give them props, so that they stay open, stay alive. Because it's like that, that kind of gear is so important, you know, to have gear that doesn't restrict your movement. Totally keeps you comfortable and warm. Makes you like, so you can move around very quietly. The, the whatever fabrics they're using, they got it dialed in. Yeah, yeah. When you're walking, if your fabric rubs together, you don't hear a fucking thing.

Yeah. And again, time's precious. And when we're doing stuff in this time, we want to enjoy it. So we're in gear that makes us enjoy it. It's great.

But it's just the, the market for this. This is like one of the things that really is, I think, important, like the market for these things that are so impactful and Important to us is not a whole. Did I just touch the microphone? That I fucked something up? Sounded weird on my end. That. It's not a big market. There's not a lot of us out there, you know, so it's like, God, I'm so thankful that someone put so much research and development into these products. Whether it's Hoyt bows or whatever you're using that you like. You got to think, like, how many people had to work tirelessly to figure out how to make this thing that is so critical to your success? You know, Fill in the blank binos, like, whatever it is, whatever you're using. Who fucking figured out how to make binoculars? How about the Sig ones that have image stabilizing now?

Yeah.

Who figured that out? Who's. What wizard? What wizard scientists. I got a pair of those 16 power SIGs, the Zulus.

Yeah.

You hit that switch and turn on the image stabilization. And normally, if you're holding. For people who don't know, if you're holding 16 power binos in your hand, your image that you're getting on the other end is all wiggly. It's 16 times larger than what you actually see. So every micro movement is a giant jiggle in your eyesight, in your eye picture. But with those things, it's like you're watching a movie. It's, like fully locked in, like it's on a tripod. It's crazy. Yeah.

I was looking for friends, and I'm like. And I was like, look, the glass isn't as good enough. And I'm saying that to him, you know? And then, because I'm looking through Maya, Maya, crystal clear. And maybe the glass isn't as good in them, but because the image is dead still. So I'm doing this. I'm putting mine up, and I'm like, it's really clear. And then I put that up, and I'm like, they're not as clear. No, you have to turn the button on. And then I press the button on. I was like, oh, they're better. Yeah, because the image is still. So you're really getting a look at it.

It's. It's gonna be the. It's the future. Swarovski is now doing it with spotting scopes. So they have a handheld spotting scope that completely stabilizes the image.

And it's now no trouble.

I mean, you hold like a 65 power spotting scope and you can look around like this. Which is crazy. Well, crazy.

And the reason why that's so critical to a hunter is we look for movement just like an animal looks for us moving too quickly, but we look for movement like an ear flick or a ch or a tail wag or something like. Or they'll. Sometimes they're high just if they got a fly lands on them. So you're looking for like a small little bit of movement. You can't do that if you're. But not if you've got movement in your optics. But with that stabilization, it's dead solid. So you can see when that ear flicks where you. Where it'd be flicking before, you just didn't notice it. So that's where it's like so critical. But if you think about all this stuff, this top of the line stuff that we talked about with the Bose, the camo, the Binos, bow hunting still was so hard.

Yeah.

So nuts. That's what's so beautiful about it, is it's so challenging. I don't care about. All this stuff is great.

No matter what you do, you're gonna stink.

Yeah.

And if the wind catches the back of your neck and you see that animal's head pop up, it's a wrap. Yeah. They're designed to get the. Away from any funky smells of things that eat meat.

Yeah.

Not interested. I'm out of here. They smell us. Bribe. We might. Must stink.

Yeah.

We must smell like hot death to them.

Oh, yeah.

Because when you see an elk or a deer catches a whiff of you and their, their head is like, oh no, what is this?

They don't even have to think that long about it.

And you know, they keep making these rules to try to make bow hunting harder. Like eliminating certain things. Like that Garmin site. I used to love using that Garmin range finding site. And then they made it outlawed in Utah. I'm like, oh, guys, come on. Like, this doesn't make it any easier. It just makes it so that you're gonna wound less things and have more effective shots. But you know, when you get to that, like it used to be there was no rangefinders. Right. When you started out, was there any rangefinders at all? Nothing.

No sights when I started out. No peep site. No fixed site.

Well, it's crazy. We shot fingers with compound.

That's crazy.

So you. I'd have a little glove, glove, three tab glove thing. And you shoot that.

What year did they invent the archery release?

Well, I got 1 in 89 finally.

When did they first come out? Like, who, who's the first guy that invent? Who's the first guy that goes. You know what? This is the first thing that I can.

I like how Cam's like, I got one in 89. I was nine years old.

Well, at least you were born.

I didn't know the word elk.

But you knew the word cunt, because they say it all the time down.

There when you're a baby.

What a cute little cunt.

Like, who was the guy that figured out the Archer release? That guy's a wizard.

Jim Fletcher was. The Fletcher release was the first one I had. And it had a little rope in it. I remember you'd have to put the rope around and it hook on the trigger on the clasp, and then you'd hit the trigger and release it. And I didn't get. I had to replace that rope because it start to wear off. So you'd have to have the right knot, and then you kind of burn it to get it to hold in there. I didn't have a good enough. So I didn't do that knot right. I go to pull the bow back, the release comes off, hit myself in the face. And so when I first started buying.

Releases, they would come with a little string.

Did they?

Yeah, the first some releases would come with a little rope. And I was like, what the fuck is this for? And it must. Must be for guys who had kind of always done it that way and didn't want to not do it that way anymore, because that was like a part of their thing maybe.

Did you find a Fletcher release?

Wow.

71.

Oh, yeah. Look at that.

Stanislavski.

Yeah.

Still, they make awesome releases today. Look at that.

That is awesome.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

Oh, so that was just like a thing that went around your finger.

Yeah. And it just turns to let it go.

Like a hinge.

Yeah.

Wow. May revolutionize. Look at that image. May revolutionize archery. Look at that. Go back to that. Look at that. May revolutionize Archie by contributing to unprecedented accuracy. I mean, that's essentially like a hinge.

Yeah, it is.

Was there a fight back on it at the time?

66.

66. Wow.

Touched a bubble for 64. It was like, I got some.

I got an idea for you guys.

Wow. Using the six gold bow string release to improve their speed and accuracy. Wow. Oh, his two sons, Glenn and his two sons use this release.

I never even heard of this guy's name.

Clarence. Wow. Look how it works, too. Like, you hook it with your index finger, and then you pull your index finger through and it pops off. That's crazy. So when you draw it, you have it like that. And then you release it. You let it go.

You just let up on your. With your index finger.

Yeah.

Like a hand and it turns.

Turns.

Yeah.

A lot of guys shoot a hinge that way. You know, Some guys shoot a hinge by pulling down with their pinky finger.

See that? See that piece of rope? Yeah.

Hand released from 1950.

Whoa.

So there's certain release. Crazy. Look at that thing.

Wow, look at that thing.

It looks like a gun handle.

Yeah.

That's so weird.

Yeah, it's. Huh. 5.95.

$5 and 90 cash.

Some things have changed.

They pay for post.

That's shipping right now. I mean, you can't even ship for that.

What a cool looking release. Imagine what a gangster you'd have to be to use that today.

Yeah.

I wonder if they could.

I love all this stuff though.

Look at that one up there. 1977, a sear type release go up.

I was like the guy with all the girls.

Yeah. That's what you get.

See, that's bow.

Honey, look at this. This is the first hinge style release.

Yeah.

So this is in the 70s, huh? Look how weird that thing looks.

Yeah, yeah.

It was always hard to get a consistent release with fingers.

Right?

Of course. Three fingers.

No, Your fingers get cold and shit's wet.

Totally makes sense.

Yeah. W. Let's look at the other ones real quick.

There was always a big fight in Australia. Whenever something new come in, like sights.

On a boat, go to that image of that guy, Terry Ra.

Yeah, he was. He shot pse. Yeah, he was a legend.

Psc, baby.

Look at the girls are on their knees. Oh my God. You shoot that. That stick so good.

See, and that's still how it is pretty much.

That happens all the time. As soon as you pull a release.

I can't wait. They hop out of the trees. There he was.

He was a stud. I remember Terry and Michelle Ragsdale.

Look at that.

D Wild. Yeah. He was the wild thing when I first started. He was the man.

Oh, that one has a trigger. That might be one of the first ones with a trigger. Wow. See that one's with the strings like.

Yeah.

If you would buy old Carter releases, they would come. Some of the releases would come with like a little string. Yeah, it was we. I was like, what is this stupid string for? I never get it. I never even asked anybody.

Oh, really?

No, it's just like. It didn't make sense.

See that? I remember that. That was 2000. So that's getting newer.

Look at the wind release. That's nuts.

Yeah, there's an overdraw up there.

Yeah.

That's cool.

Overdraw, right?

Wow.

Yeah. So that's 1990. Look at that funky looking one with wood. Einstein. Auf drein los van mittim neuen Volkswagen T Roc bistub reit ver den grossen auftred Selbstu wurst und fall. Then sound, then drive then T Rock rocked then neue T Rock. That's kind of cool looking. That does. So I guess it's the thumb button. It must be.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Wow.

Wow.

And see, some of them have strings.

Yep.

So in case people were like, old school.

Yeah. Pretty cool.

Wow.

Archery.

So how would you. When you first started, how would you measure distance? Would you. Was it all just in your mind?

Instinct.

Instinct. So just like throwing a ball.

Yeah. So you just have to, you know, it's just like now they have unmarked 3D tournaments where they don't have it. You just have to get out there and kind of judge. It was definitely harder back then because the bows weren't as fast. So you're. You could only be off by like a yard or two or you'd miss. Now, with a faster, flatter shooting bow, you can be off. You can't be off by five yards.

Right. For people who don't know what we're talking about, the slower the bow is, the more it's going to drop. By the time it gets to the target, the faster the bow is, the flatter it's going to shoot.

You learn your cast on the bow, too. So he never wanted to get rid of that bow because you would literally learn the cast of an arrow.

That's what. What Adam's talking about is the trajectory. So we used to practice this all the time. Like, you'd have a target out there at 60 yards, but halfway in between you and the target, you couldn't even see the target. So you'd put like you could put a car. And so you're looking through the car window because you can see through the glass and line of sight, you're going to go right through, break the windows and everything else. But you just know that at 60 yards, that arrow is going to be 10 yards above that car halfway there. So at 30 yards, arrow has to go up to come down at 60, so you could just aim right at the car, arrows going right over it. So we do stuff like that just.

For fun to figure out the arc of the arrow.

Right. But not even. That was like it just an elementary example just so people could get what I'm saying. But when we'd get in the woods, then there'd be a branch. Like I said, I shot with Levi Morgan. He came out and did lift, run, shoot. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna beat this. He's 16, 17 time world champion. So I had all these shots where it's like, okay, this branch, is he gonna know? This one shot was like. I think it was 90 some yards at a deer up on the hill, but there's this big branch halfway in between it. And I knew it was kind of hard to tell is your arrow gonna go over it or under it? It. Right.

It was.

Because you didn't know that. I think it was about 25 yards away. I knew what my arrow was going to do because I practice over and over and over and I'm going to be like, oh, Levi's going to this one up for sure. I'll. I'll beat him on this target. Sure as he knew exactly what his arrow was going to do. But that's. He practices that all the time and done it his whole life and. And this and that. But just fun games like that, that. And it was only just to make us. Because when you're hunting, that happens all the time. But where I would kind of screw myself up is I loved the challenge of shots so much. Like, and I shot between trees so often because that was like my thing. I could just like. Even it was just like. Like four inches. I'd be like, oh, I can. So when I was hunting, if I'd see a challenging shot on an animal, I'd be like. Like where I could have maybe taken a step to the right and got wide open, I'd be like, I can make this shot. And like, like making my hunting shot more challenging because I was just young and an idiot.

Now I'd be like, I'd be stupid. I can just go right here and shoot. But I would do that. But we'd practice that all the time because it was fun. And then you'd like, have. You'd want your. I mean, I had so much confidence in shooting. I would shoot hours and hours and hours every day. I remember one time we were at this Henson's. These guys who used to bow hunt with us. Me and Roy were there, and there's a bale out there at 70 some yards. And then a piece of foam that was like a broadhead target. Used to be just a square piece of foam, like 2 inches, maybe 3 inches wide, but like by 2 foot. By 2 foot. And that was your broadhead target. And that would stop an arrow with a broadhead orange. It just that two or three inches of foam. Well, the foam target, the broadhead target was laying flat on the bale at 70 yards. So it was only like 2 inches. You know, we would like have these competition all the time. I'm like, I said, see that broadhead target on the cedar bale? Yeah. I'm going to hit that broadhead target.

And I would hit it and that. So we were the best shots ever with no rangefinders. So then Bushnell finally came up with the rangefinder and it was like a kind of like a. I remember like a. Like a. Yeah. Kind of longer, like an eight track tape. Almost like sort of size. And then it had a dial on it. And the images, it'd be off. And then if you lined up the image like this, that would be. You look at the. Then you'd look at it. Wherever that image lined up, that'd be the yardage. So then you'd be like, okay, that's close to 50 yards. Then you know, to shoot for 50. But it wasn't very accurate. It was close.

And did you have a sight tape?

You had pins.

You had pins.

Yeah. The sights didn't move at that.

So your pins would be set up at like 20, 30, 40, 50, something like that.

Yeah. And they just had like, we called them T dot. So it was like a little plastic sort of like fiber, but it's like red plastic that would sort of like have light on it. Like a little.

Just a little fiber optics or anything.

That was a fiber, but it light up a little because it's red plastic.

Yeah, I heard people talking about this the other day. They were talking about Josh Jones and that. Josh and Tim's Fireside Chat. Yeah, it's a great podcast.

Yeah.

They were talking about how a site that you buy today for like 25 bucks is so superior to anything that existed in like 1990.

Yeah, like, it still made it.

Fiber optics.

Enjoyable. It still made it a lot more successful. You know, it's like it was still a big advance at that time.

Yeah, yeah.

But to think about where it is now.

Well, the garment site, like I was telling you about, that, that I. It had a few flaws. One I had one that worked perfectly and then I had a second one. You know, when you get you. One of the things you said, when you get a new bow, you don't want to put old shit on the new bow. You want to put new shit.

I like new stuff.

I did that too. But unfortunately My first garment site worked perfectly. My second one didn't work so good. Like, there would be times where it worked perfectly and then times where I couldn't get a range. I'd press it, it wouldn't go. I'm a full drop press. It won't go. Press it won't go. Press it. Finally. But when it does work, you get this, like a red dot. You get a clear screen, and on that screen is a red dot. No pins, no wires, no nothing. And, oh, I love it when it worked perfect, because then, say if you hit an elk at 50 yards and then he. He's stands out at 80 and he's still standing broadside. You don't have to rearrange. You just press a button on your. On your grip, and it instantly gives you a new range.

Yeah, I think I. We talked about this before, and I think I mentioned that the goal is to try to protect the integrity of archery, like keeping it primitive. So it's like, where's that line?

Right.

In Utah, they decided that, that that garment site was past the line of primitive, you know, so we want to. We want to honor archery and the history of archery. And yes, there's been advancements, but it's always. It's a. It's a moving target on where the line is to keep it primitive.

I get it. But if you've ever. I don't think. I think it's ignorant because I think if you use one of those things, you realize, like, all it's doing is taking a step away. It's still the same exact thing. You're range finding either way, and then you're dialing to 50 yards. And whatever, you know, you have to do to execute the shot then. But this way you're a full draw. And the range finding is a part of that. It's just smarter. If it worked perfectly, it's smarter. And I think they're gonna get better. And I'm sure the software is better. I haven't used it in two years, but when it worked, it was amazing. It's like, this is really what you want. What you want is to absolutely know the exact distance so you can make an ethical shot. So if you range at 50 and then he takes a few steps and then you're guessing because you can't re range. Look, we already have a less than 10% success rate anyway. It's not like everyone who gets a tag is going to get an elk. It's a small number of people that are really successful all the time.

But that would keep you from wounding. And that should be our goal always. I don't think it's, I don't think it's any easier. It's just more effective.

I think there's more room for error in it though, isn't there? Because like my binoculars are the range finder so I can definitely get the dot. Not a hundred percent on the animal. Right. Whereas I think with those sites it's a little bit more difficult to definitely be ranging that animal and not a branch five yards behind it or five.

Not when you're at full draw. No, they're really good. So when you're at full draw, when, when it worked at full draw, you're steady like your pin. Right. So you, you have a target and the target is like this little red thing and when you put it on there and then you press the button, then it gives you your pin.

Yeah, but what if you're not on it? What if you're like. Because you said it would eliminate wounding, which it would.

No, no, I didn't say to eliminate wounding. If I did, I misspoke. What I meant was you're going to get less of that because you're going to have more effective exact ranges.

Right. But you said like if you needed a follow up shot, that's where people we know adrenaline goes crazy for sure after the first shot. So if they're wound up and they're shooting too quickly because that site allows it, would that, could that be a.

Negative but it's a follow up shot.

Yeah.

Why are you shooting too quickly? That's a mind management thing. You know, you should figure out how to manage your mind and calm yourself down and make that shot. You wouldn't freak out on a second shot if you had that. Right? That's what I'm saying. And if you had that and you 100% could count on it the same way you count on your rangefinder, that would be the best thing for everybody. Best thing for the animal, best thing for you. Best thing for everybody. This is a more. And it's a way better sight picture. The sight picture is amazing. It's a red dot. It's just like a red dot on a pistol, you know, like a red dot on a pistol. That's what it looks like. That dot is just sitting there and you're not, you just can put it right on the vitals and it's a beautiful feeling when you watch through that range, through that range finding site and you, you put that pin on and then the arrow releases and then you watch that arrow soar and boink right in there.

Oh. Oh, hunting.

Oh, it's nice.

I don't doubt that. You know, it's like, I'm just devil's advocate, but I get it.

Look, I'm a fan of, like, a company that does something like that. I'm a fan of Gar. I mean, I got a Garmin watch on right now. Yeah, I'm a fan of Garmin, period. They make awesome. They make awesome range finding. I mean, awesome GPS equipment. They make awesome watches. They make great. They make great the. The chest straps, the. The workout things. Yeah, they make awesome stuff. Stuff. So I'm just happy that someone put the research and development and the money that must have taken to put together a range finding binocular. Range finding site, rather. That actually works.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, I just want a better one. I would want it perfect.

I'll get there.

I want it like my. Like I have that. One of the things that I love, I have a loopholed full draw five. That's my favorite range finder of all time because it gives you the arc of the arrow at its peak. That is so huge. And I used it to kill a bull once because. And when I had that garment site, in fact, because I had the Garmin sight and I ranged this elk and it was at 50 yards, but there was a hole only like this where I could shoot through. And I was like, oh, I don't know. So then I pull out the. The loopholed and I hit the button, and I see the exact arc of the arrow where it's going to be at its height, and Its height was 6 inches below those branches. I'm like, we're good.

Good.

Yeah, we're good.

So just keep the pin on them and was perfect. See that thing? Ah, love that thing. Yeah, that thing's so huge. So you know. Exactly. Right. There is a little sketch.

Right.

Because that could hit it on the way in.

Right.

So that's the height of your arrow, but that doesn't mean. Where. Where's that tree?

Yeah.

Like that tree might be 20 yards ahead of you. You might smack right into that thing. So you have to take that into consideration. But having that extra indication of the height, the high point of the arrow.

Huge. On this.

Huge.

You just take a step to the left.

Exactly.

Then you. Or if you're me when I was younger, you just shoot right there.

Shoot straight.

Or would you get on your knees?

Yeah, get on your knees.

Get on your knees and execute the shot. But it's like having that knowledge, what it's going to keep is that arrow whacking that branch and then sticking in his ass and wounding him, you know, whereas you might have made a perfect release. But because of that high, high point of the arrow indication, now you know, and you can make a more educated decision. It's all about making the ethical shot. And so for me, anything that allows you. It's still going to be really hard to do. It's always hard.

Here's here. Okay, so I'll just do a list real quick. The biggest help in bow hunting has been the laser rangefinder. That, that changed the game definitely. Now that was back in the day. Now tapes now. Well, some people, yeah, some. Some people don't do well with sight tapes in the heat of the moment as far as dialing the site.

Right.

But it can make, it's made me more accurate at longer range for sure to be able to dial the sight and hold. Right on.

Yeah.

Right now the. So the. A positive has been on X or the mapping system as far as for hunting the mounds. That has helped so many people and so much confidence.

Huge.

That's a giant one. It's like, like that's one reason why the back country definitely has more people in it because more people are confident. Used to be like, used to have to read a 7.5 minute per angle topo map. You don't have to do that anymore. So now and you don't have to figure out where your car is anymore. You put the, you mark your car, you're good to go. That's been huge. There's a huge negative. Not too many people are talking about. And it's, it's using optics with. They pick up heat signature.

Yeah.

What are those called?

Thermals.

Thermals. Yeah, those. Dude. It's not good for hunting. You don't. So glassing is an art. We've talked about glass and having good glass movement. Glassing is an art. These thermal optics, you don't have to be good at anything.

You're like predator.

You put them up and it tells you where the animal is. So. So I've never even used one, but I've talked to guys who have used them and I know that it's not great because what would take hours to glass it and you probably would miss, you know, a bedded mule deer, buck, five minutes. You know where every animal is on that hill.

That's a good argument. There's a good argument that that's too far.

That is, that is way too Far.

And is that legal in most states?

It hasn't even hardly been covered, really. It's kind of a new technology that they don't even address, really.

But I'm saying California's outlawed it.

I hope so, because it needs to be outlawed everywhere.

That's a good point.

So many big animals are getting killed that shouldn't be getting killed right now by guys using thermals. And is it a loophole? Are they doing it when they shouldn't be doing it in some states? Or is it because to catch people is tough? You know, hunting is about honor. Honor and respect is what we talk about. We police ourselves. We do it right. You know, I mean, yeah, there's people who get busted for doing shit, but most people are just out there policing ourselves.

Well, it's because they want that same respect. Yeah, you talked about it. What's Holiday's first name again?

Cal Holiday.

Cal Holiday.

Yeah.

When you talk about that guy, they want you to talk about. Every man wants you to talk about that. Him like that. He's not around like that. And they're not going to. If you're cutting corners and you're using some. You're not supposed to or what is that. What is the law on that, though? Because like, every state has different laws, right? Like Nevada, you're allowed to use walkie talkies. And at least you used to be able to where you can tell people, hey, he's right above you.

It's a little bit probably like the E bike thing where it's so fresh that they haven't come up with, you can or you can't. Right now it's a bicycle. No, it's not. It's a motorcycle. It's optics. No, it's not. It's thermals.

Right? Yeah.

Let's see what the laws are. Put. Put that into perplexity. What are the laws? What states allow thermal binoculars for hunting? Thermal scopes are not universally allowed for hunting. Yeah, but not thermal scopes. Thermal binoculars.

Yeah. Does it say thermal thermal optics down below right there? In Europe, owning thermal optics is often.

Yeah, but what about America? What In America, what states allow thermal binoculars for hunting? Put that in there. Not scopes. That's the problem. It's the word scope is for a rifle scope. Binoculars. Let's see. How crazy is this AI where it just does this and immediately gives you the answer. Thermal imaging devices, including binoculars and monoculars, are legal to own in the United States. And many states allow them in some hunting contexts, especially predators or nuisance species like Hogs or coyotes. However, several states either completely ban thermal for any hunting or ban profession and possession, rather, use of thermal devices while taking or locating wildlife. So examples of state rules. Some states explicitly allow thermal optics for night hunting. For example, Texas, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Missouri authorized thermal devices for specific predator or invasive species hunts in their 2025 regulations. Other states, such as Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Tennessee, prohibit thermal optics for hunting wildlife altogether or for most game species. Yeah, so a lot of states. So it seems like a few states are on the ball with this.

Yeah, I mean, it's a big deal because those animals, to get to trophy status for these animals, they're old, they've survived, they know what it takes. They've done it. They've outwitted hunters for years. And now in their best bed, where a man would never be able to find them by glassing those.

Yeah, they're behind a tree, but a knee is showing up.

It's not. It's not hunting. It's not right. It's not use. It's not the art of glassing, which is what, you know, how we've developed these skills. It's using technology that makes sense.

It makes sense because it's like you're saying there is a line.

Yeah.

You know, and that you, you are actively campaigning for something that's going to make your job easier to go away.

Yeah, I want it to. I wanted to. To keep. Keep the challenge there.

Well, it's also what he said when you, like you said in the town you grew up, if you killed a big buck, like, people respected you. Why? Because that's really hard to do.

Yeah.

Those big old bucks are smart and they are tuned in, man. They hear branch snap and it's like this boing.

They're that big for a reason.

They're that big for a reason. Yeah.

Yeah, it's. And I, I know in, in Utah was going down this creek this year, and I saw like, there's some. There's some cedar trees, like a kind of a patch of them there, but basically there's a tunnel in there and then a deer bed. And like, you couldn't see it from anywhere. And I was thinking, man, if a buck was bedded there, you'd have no idea. Right. And. But you would now if you had the thermo optics. And that's like, that was a perfect example of a buck that found that bed. That story is safe, and that's how we survived. Now that, that.

Taking that away, taking that away. That's there's probably trad guys listening to this podcast, though.

I'm being like, off you for people that don't know what that means. Trad guys are guys who hunt with a regular old school bow and arrow, like a recurve bow, which is good.

It's a good challenge.

They're just guessing where that arrow is going to go, you know?

Well, hopefully practice.

Oh, yeah, they practice. But there is a lot of guessing. You're guessing the yardage, you're guessing where your arrow is going to hit. You know, I mean, some of those guys that trad boat hunt, do they use rangefinders?

No.

No. So all of them are just guessing.

Instinct.

I try and do a couple of tread by instinct.

Is it?

And it's like when you throw a.

Rock, is that guessing? No, it's instinct, Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's just like to get good at pitching a baseball.

Right.

You know, I mean, it's the same. Some people are really good, except the.

Pitcher'S mound and the batter's box the same distance every time.

That's true.

Yeah. That's the difference.

Well, if you discipline, you would know that it's under 20 yards every time and that's all you'd take.

Yeah, but there's a lot of guys that can take a poke with a recurve bow.

Yeah.

You know, pretty accurate with it. Like, they have some different ways of measuring, like where the tip of it is.

Yeah.

40 yards. They know that that's when it's gonna hit dead on.

Yep.

They look down the arrow instead of like we do through a peephole. They're looking down the shaft of the arrow. They look all squirrely and like this.

Some people look so squirrely, they put it on their eye or put it here and they use it, the point of the arrow, as you said. But yeah, it's like most people, though. Like you talk about discipline. Like, I'm gonna shoot if it's 20 yards or less. That's the only time I'm gonna shoot. Unless it's huge.

I had once in a life, it.

Was the biggest thing a bull I've ever seen. I had to shoot.

Sometimes you think you see things and you'll like, how do I get to that? How do I find him? Even if it's far away.

Yeah, yeah. Normally, like you see stuff. Here's would be the technology that would really hurt because you see something a mile away and you know that animal's there. If I could just get to that tree line. If you could just be There.

Yeah.

Well, that's where those long range rifle guys. That's a whole different argument. Right. Some of those guys, they'll take a poke. Seven, 900 yards cards, you know, and they're real accurate with it.

These guys are so good. Like, they're shooting. Yeah. And that's. That's a whole nother.

They're taking into account the wind across the canyon.

And I saw this guy. I'm pretty sure the other Tanner was showing me this because, you know, so much waste of time on Instagram, but this was kind of cool. He was shooting so far and he's so good. So he's prone down, had his long range. All this, all. Everything they do, it's. That's a whole art. But anyway, he shot and I think he was. If I remember right, he shot and it was so far. He put another shell in. Got another bullet on the way. They both hit steel.

That's crazy.

They both hit steel.

At least it was steel and not like some.

He racked another round in. In the time it took for the bullet to get there.

Yes. And sent the other one on the way. And so it was like a. A dong. Dong.

That's crazy.

Yeah, that's. This guy's a machine, though. I wish I could remember the page, but. Guy's a machine because you can see he's down in his gun, just like in and still on. That scope didn't even move.

Boom. That's a whole nother art form, you know, That's a whole nother. Keeping your together. Crazy long range shooting. I know a lot of guys that get into. My friend Justin got really into that. Once you get into long range shooting, you start just fucking craving it. They just want to, like, hit that steel at 1500 yards. It's nuts. Some of these guys, they shoot insane. Like, what is the record for the longest shot ever taken in a competition? Like those long range competitions. What do you think it is?

I mean, it's 2,000 yards for sure.

Really?

Yeah.

That's so crazy.

I would think that people are shooting at 2,000.

I'll have a crack.

Yeah.

2.4 miles. Wow. Wait, really?

Did I say yard? What did I mean? Did I mean yards? Yeah, I meant yards.

He almost nailed it.

What is it actually?

Yeah.

2.4 miles.

Yeah.

Wow.

Look. How'd you guess?

You.

You looked that up somehow?

How could. He lives in Australia. They're not allowed to know this information.

I don't even know who Miles is.

If you even search this online, please show up at your door.

Holy smokes.

4224 yard shot at the Clark. This guy was Robert Brantley at the Clark's Knob ELR match in Kansas. Described as a new world record in long range shooting achieved under match conditions. That's incredible. That is so crazy.

On competition. Almost double.

Look at that.

Oh my God. In 2022 in Wyoming, a team recorded a 4.4 mile 7744 yard hit on steel after dozens of tries.

Whoa.

Wow. But not a standard scored competition stage. Wow.

The problem is guys see that like 4.4 miles, they're like, oh, I could shoot at a thousand yards then.

Right? Look at that thing.

They never practiced.

Good lord.

Yeah. These guys, I mean the amount of no moving you have to have.

Oh my God. Dude.

It's crazy.

But yeah, the guy out there with their BuyMart 30 06. Do they. You got. You guys have Buy Marts here? Ever heard of By Mart?

What's a buymart?

It's a store. Oh no, like a sporting good store by. Or not a sporting goods. But anyway, like they got their, you know, 250 rifle from BuyMart 3006 and they're like, they see that and they're like, like, oh, then I could shoot it 600 yards. They shoot at 4.4 miles. That's the problem.

That is part of the problem.

But people say that about me too is like, oh, people will say I always talk about shooting animals at 100 yards, which I have never. One time. But yeah. I practice a long range, but they try to lump me in. Like I'm, I'm ruining and promoting long range shooting.

No, you're just amplifying if you're off at all or you know, or. It's good practice this.

Yeah, no, it's great. What I always said is her rifle.

For the 4.4 miles.

Those are heavy too.

Oh yeah, look at it. I mean it looks like a.

It's a longbow. It just needs a string on it like a barbell.

It's probably. I mean, I bet it's 30, 40 pounds. I don't know. Does it say the weight on those things?

Look at the size of that gun. Look at the barrel. Yeah, that's nuts.

Yeah.

First confirmed and verified world record. Yeah, this isn't the actual one. This is 2018. That shot was taken in 2022. Oh, so is it. This is a world record before the world record. Wow.

Yeah.

If I touched a gun, I know.

Those guns are heavy.

That's what the government tells you. You don't want to touch a gun, you might get aids.

That's exactly what we said.

It's only if you stick it up your ass, I guess.

No, you got to stick it up your ass after somebody stuck it up your. Their ass.

Oh, right. Yeah.

You gotta get a second. It's like dirty needles.

I hate when that happens. Yeah, it's.

But that's another thing. It's like, you know, like the bow hunters look at rifle hunters, like, oh, that's kind of easy. Traditional hunters look at compound hunters, like, oh, that's easy. And then there's guys out there. I use a spear, you know, Each.

Of their own, too.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

As long as you're ethical. As long as you could do it. I mean, I'm sure there's probably some guy out there that knows how to hit a target with an adolescent, you know, Probably.

I mean, I. If I'm using a spear, I don't do anything past three yards. That's like just.

A minute speed of buffalo. We try to figure out years ago who's pretty cool.

And did you really. Oh, God, probably edit that out? We were trying to figure out. We were trying to figure out the other day, like, when the actual bow and arrow was invented. And it's kind of difficult to track down, but it seems. The weird thing is it seems to have been invented or at least seems to exist simultaneously at many spots all over the world at the same time, which is really interesting.

Yeah.

It makes you think, like, I wonder. We really don't know how much people were traveling back then. We really don't. So there's a lot of guessing. And they keep pushing back maritime travel. They keep pushing back, like the age of will it when the first, maybe even primitive humans were using some sort of a raft to get across lakes and rivers and. And maybe even oceans. But, you know, sharing that information, like, who is the wizard that looked at a stick and goes, if I could just put one of these things on the end of that stick.

Oh, cool.

And pull it. That's a good one.

Why do you have that?

Huh?

I always have that. It's always sitting right here.

Oh, that you had in your pocket.

I did, because I put it in my pocket sometimes when I'm fiddling with it. Yeah, I play with that thing. That's a real one. That's from here.

Whoa, That's a good one.

Yeah, I found one in New Mexico.

Yeah, that's a good one. Right. Remy said that one was probably used for fish. He said, because it's so big.

Okay.

That was his guess, but maybe it might have been used for bison sort of.

Bob, It's. I mean, it's not. I mean, it would cut. I mean, it's sort of sharp.

Yeah. I mean, as sharp as you can get it.

That's cool, though.

It's not like modern broadheads. Modern broadheads you could shave your arm with.

You know, they cut your eyes when you look at them too hard, bro.

Yeah, that's what you want. You know, that's the other thing. Like, is that too. Is that too good? Is that too easy to go back to flint?

Go back?

Maybe you should make your own arrowheads.

No, I like eating. There's a guy that I. Oh, he went to high school with, but he's. He would say his dad would, like, shoot his arrows down the road to make him. He would, like, want to make the broadhead door so it'd go in and rip a bigger hole.

What?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Anyway, people come up with some crazy shit.

Well, if they don't know, that's the. One of the things that's cool about. When I got into bow hunting and especially learning it from you, I already knew so much just from talking to you. You had so much information. I didn't have to, like, figure it out. Out nearly as much. Yeah, I said to listen, you know? Like, so many people have already figured out metal broadhead. So, like, we were having a conversation about lighted knocks this weekend, and I'm like, damn it. I think I'm gonna stop using lighted knocks.

Yeah, sorry.

The weight and. No, I think you got a really good point. Like, that additional 10 grains at the end can't be good for accuracy. It just can't be.

I think you've got to pick the situation, though, and it's a little bit. You know, like, if I'm going to the Arctic and there's no sunlight and I want to see where the arrow hits. Okay. A lighted knock's gonna override the little bit of inconsistency because it's a dull environment.

It's hard to see. It's almost like you're dusk all day long.

Yeah, right. And I think, like, hunting pigs in their beds. You know, you're under the trees, it's dark. It might come into play a little bit more there. But if it's not required, then. Yeah. Why. Why interrupt even a little bit of accuracy? Because you get to a certain point in bow hunting where we're talking about the arrow shafts, the. The better the match grade of arrow shoves. You can use. You don't notice that to start with because you're just shooting, you know, and you're not super consistent. You're not super accurate. And then all those little things end up bringing a group from that to that, and there's the difference. And you'll notice that at this point in your archery.

Yeah, it makes sense. It totally makes sense. But it's just, again, thank God somebody figured all this stuff out. If you had to come along and do it all by yourself, like, oh.

It was a hard learning curve like in Australia that, like, we didn't have the. The sort of figures and probably knowledge that you guys did because it's like, it's part of your pastime. Right. I was talking to Evan about this. It's like part of the American pastime, a bow hunter. Whereas in Australia, it's not, you know, and it's not. There's not all the information out there. And it seemed like Australia was probably about 10 years behind the US on sites, release aids, the knowledge behind it. And yeah, I. I think the fact that you guys have, like, we were talking about Fred Bear, you know, like, paving the way for bow hunting in America. And, you know, Australia's had its. Its idols as well, and people that have paved the way, but a lot slower than here. To have all the knowledge for you, to have someone like Cam is absolutely brilliant, because you are. You've probably made those mistakes yourself or learn them yourself. And then so you go straight to Joe and be like, this is a good setup. This works, this doesn't. And then in Australia, the first things I was sold were target sites for bow hunting, you know, and it's just like.

And we didn't know any better. So as well as wasting time, you wasted a lot of money, you wasted a lot of effort, you wasted a lot of heartache, you know, on. On finding your way in bow hunting.

Yeah. And there's still guys right now that shoot instinctual with a compound.

Yeah, it's. It's. The Internet has definitely helped, like, educate people. You know, we start to learn it all on our own, which is like, I think to Adam's point, where it's nice when you have a resource or a mentor. A lot of the times we didn't have that. We had magazines, we didn't have Internet, so we just have to figure it out. But. But when we talk about, like, the lighted nocks specifically, you mentioned the weight. The weight is one part, but it's also the inconsistency of having those electronics back there on the back of the arrow, and you just can't get as good as a knock or so that's the connection point from the arrow to the string. It's just not going to be as good with electronics in there with. It's trying to serve a different purpose of lighting up that knock. Where in my opinion, that's going to help me maybe decide on when to go after the animal, Knowing where I hit it, but it's not going to make me any more lethal. It's going to make me less lethal. I want the most accurate arrow possible. And where that goes, whether I see it or not doesn't really matter.

I'm going to have to get on that blood trail and recover that animal regardless. So just knowing where the arrow hit isn't making it any more deadly or not shot. You know, it's just how that might impact how I react to that shot. But I want the most accurate. That's why I shoot those, you know, the X10s, $50 an arrow. Because it's the straightest, most accurate arrow. It's what they've used in the Olympics since 1996. So you can use other arrows. They're not as straight, not as good. You can put lighted knocks on. You're giving up accuracy. You can do it if you want, and you can say it's going to help help in these other arenas. It's not going to help with accuracy. So all I care about is that arrow going where I want it to go. That's how I look at things.

It's the most important. Yeah, yeah. It makes sense. It makes sense. And the amount of times where the lighted knock would help you is dwarfed in comparison to the amount of times where accuracy is critical.

Right, right.

Accuracy is always critical.

Right.

And there's only a small amount of times where that lighted knock is really going to come into play where it really helps you.

You. That's what I. I mean, it's cool and it's nice and it looks. I've never used one, so. I mean, maybe I. I have. You. I guess I have a few times, But I just was like, just thinking about it, like, no, I. It's not helping me.

I always think about it when I take the. The regular knocks off and put the lighted ones on. Like, the regular knocks are solid.

Yeah, yeah.

The. And the lighted ones. There's a hole in the center of it where you've got electronics and a light bulb and a battery.

I know.

Like, there's a bunch of shit in there. Yeah, that. That Scott of It has to have some sort of an effect, right?

Yeah.

Didn't Tom Miranda used to have something. We had a weight on the back of his arrow. Didn't he have something crazy, some weird setup or you had a.

Not the breadcrumb, like the tracker.

I don't remember what he had. No, it wasn't that. No, it was like a thing that he did to the back of his arrow. I was like, that seems counterintuitive. We had additional weight on the back. I don't know what I'm talking about. I can't remember.

I don't know. But Tom Miranda, that's old school. So you're looking at. I mean, he's still out there getting it done, but that's. I mean, that's history.

Exactly. We were talking about the other day with the. The Tom Miranda.

Oh, he's had those TV shows on forever.

Yeah.

Adventure bow hunting with Tom Miranda. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I went all over the world, okay.

Yeah. Getting around the world, bro.

That guy went all over the world. Hunting all over the world. He was one of the first guys that ever heard about using a sauna to. To help his hunting.

Really?

Yeah, yeah. He felt like, because he was living in Florida, and the guy was like, why do you want a sauna in your house here in Florida? And he's like, because it makes you have more endurance. Yeah, it's better for hunting. I didn't know. That's cool. Yeah, it's pretty cool. Like Tom Miranda.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Old school. Okay.

It's cool to introduce all that stuff in the hunting. Like, if you're that passionate, you know, I did this.

I need an edge.

I got the ice bath at home. I did the hypoxic wolf, which is. I think I was telling Joe about this, where I decked the home gym out. So it's basically a gym at altitude now. And that's what I was using before I got to Utah. And it actually made me be able to go from the bottom of the mountain to the top without stopping to take a breath, which is incredible. So.

So it's altitude training. It's altitude tent or.

No, it's the whole room. So. But this a company called Leonics now. Now they make say it could be the size of this and it would have red light therapy in here, it would have a sauna in here, it would have the hypoxic conditioning in here. So basically pumping nitrogen into the room to drop the oxygen levels. And so you could have gym equipment in here. You could sit near and read a Book. But the way that I've got it set out, I'm doing a workout in it now and I've got a target in the corner. I literally shoot my bow in there at like 14,500ft.

Feet.

And then to step out of that. And like, I live at sea level back in Australia. To step out of that at sea level, like, you feel. Oh, absolutely incredible.

Yeah.

So. And then that's. So what was Utah? 8,000.

Sometimes eight, seven something.

Seven or 8,000ft.

And I'd probably nine at the highest.

Okay. And I'd be training at 14, 500. So I felt amazing when I went there.

Yeah, it was awesome.

Technology.

Technology that is. That is useful because, I mean, that's what athletes do. They go to high altitude training in the mountains and then they come down to lower elevation where there's more. More oxygen and there's more oxygen available to push themselves harder. So their body's used to that. It created more red blood cells, essentially. I think it's like a natural. I think that's what EPO they say does. So it's a natural way to do that. And. Yeah, I mean, so it just doesn't stay very long. Is that right?

Yeah. It only stays in your system. Like your system eventually acclimates to whatever the altitude is. But before it does that, you have a nice advantage. Like there's. That's why the time is. I think it's like a couple of weeks.

Okay.

I think that's why they probably put the Olympic training center in Colorado Springs. You know, they want these people to train it. It totally makes sense. Yeah, totally makes sense. Train an altitude.

I found mentally I felt a lot better too. And then. So I've now done a bit of reading up on it. And it's like the plasticity of the brain improves under those conditions as well. And then.

Makes sense. Adaptors or die.

Yeah. I just feel so happy afterwards. I was sleeping in there in the end because I was trying to fit in as much, which can be detrimental as well. Like, you don't want to overdo it. Oh. But I was sleeping in there in the end and I'd wake up in the morning and I was just like on a high for like four or five hours.

Why? Why would they say not to overdo it? Because when they go train at altitude, they're up there the whole time just.

To get acclimated, I bet. Initially.

Yeah.

Don't overdo it initially.

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah.

And I also think that a part of the, you know, it'd Be like overdoing your muscles if you just kept doing arms every single day, you know?

Wait a minute. That's what he does.

You can't help it, can you?

No bloody contact.

That's bike that you sent me is awesome, by the way, the Step Up. Because I. I love the. You know, the Air Dyne bikes. I love those things. It's like my favorite conditioning thing. And I love the Echo bike from Rogue, but I think that one's even.

Superior to the E Bike bike. How consistent the. The drag is on it as you.

But even more importantly, it's harder. Yeah, it's harder to pull back. Like, the Echo bike is easier to pull back. That one has more resistance.

Yeah.

And when I. When I first started using that one, I was like. Like, whoa, this one's tough. Like, whatever you're getting out of the Echo bike or the Air Dyne bike, That's that times two.

Really? Yeah.

What is it called again?

Stepper Step.

It's stpr, right?

Yep.

Yeah. Yeah, that thing rules. That thing rules.

I'll get them the deck. Yeah. Because all their equipment's like that.

Well, that. That bike is the. Because. And it's also got different grips, different hand grips, and different.

Yeah, I'm changing that up.

Yeah, you can. You can mix it up. You can mix up where the resistance is coming from.

I actually lift the seat right up, so it's nearly like I'm in the standing position.

Like this nice.

With the seat up and the legs are right down. And it burns me. Yeah. Absolutely burns me. I love it.

Yeah, it's a. It's a great low impact cardio, too. I mean, really conditions the shit out of your legs and your lungs, and it's. You know, you're not taking any pounding while you're doing it. I think it's hard.

I'm stoked. You like it?

Oh, I love it. Yeah. Because when it was in there, I didn't know when it had gotten delivered, and I was like, oh, what the fuck is it this? And then when it was in the gym, I started trying. The moment I got on, I was.

Like, oh, and it's easy to crank up, too. Like, it's right there. There's no reaching down the handles right there.

Just. It's good. There's so many different things you could use now. But what you. What were you saying about earlier? It's like you. You have the opportunity now to be better than you've ever been before.

Yeah.

Because of all this, you know, hormone optimization. The ways to. Well, Stuff peptides, nutrition, understanding exercise science and then equipment is. You could condition your body and you could be in amazing shape at 58, which is crazy.

The knowledge of no one that's actually out there is. I'm grateful for.

Oh yeah.

Just the knowledge and knowing that we can be better every day, we can be healthier physically and mentally, it's great.

And I see, I do see a lot of doctors who kind of on BPC or on stem cells and I'm.

Like.

Whatever you're saying, cool, but I've never felt better.

So there's a lot of doctors.

You could say it doesn't work.

Yeah, there's a lot of doctors. I've talked to doctors that on it. And I had this one conversation with a doctor that I like, he's a nice guy and he's like, I think it's a lot of placebo. And I go, there's peer reviewed studies on BBC 157. Like, you're saying this and you haven't done the research. Like, this is not, not debatable. Like BPC157, there's a very clear pathway. They show why it works. It naturally exists in the human body and you can enhance your body's ability to recover from soft tissue injuries. It's important, it's good, it's good for you. Like the idea that somehow or another this is horseshit. Like, no, you're horseshit. You're spitting out some nonsense. And the problem is a lot of doctors, in particular, a lot of very educated people that are specialists in whatever they're in. Like, you got a doctor, you went to school. School, you got a rather. You got a medical degree, you went to school, you did your residency. You want to be the one who has all the information when someone comes along and says, actually a better way to do it is through stem cells.

Like, stem cells? Yeah, like, what do you, what do you mean? Oh, stem cells. How much do you know? There's. Neil Reardon has written many papers on stem cells. Like, there's a documented efficacy on neurological conditions, soft tissue injuries, joint rehabilitation. It's not guessing for a doctor to say, I wouldn't mess with stem cells. So you go, it's unproven. The FDA hasn't approved it. It's because the FDA sucks. It doesn't mean that it doesn't work. Like, there's scientists that are studying this stuff and there's people that are using it. You got shit, tons of anecdotal evidence from world class athletes that'll tell you the benefits of it. There's a reason why the UFC has partnered up with CPI down in Mexico. But they have to go to fucking Mexico, Mexico to do this stuff, you know, which is crazy.

Where it's brought here and available. Yeah.

But ways to Wells, Brigham in particular, is really working hard to make all that stuff available in the United States. And it's only good. It's good for everybody. It's not bad for medicine. People are always going to need doctors. It's crazy. It's just more advancement. And the problem is it's going to for sure it's going to interfere with people want to sell you pain pills. It's going to interfere with people that want to do unnecessary surgeries.

Yeah.

And they're. Unfortunately, that's a real thing.

It's where they make their, their money. And people like to say that, well, it's not FDA approved. And I'm like, have you seen the shit that is FDA approved? It's like that, that doesn't mean anything to me. I might not want to take it.

If it is something like 30% of all medications to get approved by the FDA get pulled. Yeah.

It's just like that doesn't mean shit to me.

What is the percentage put that in there.

You look at all the fucking poisonous food they sell us, which is FDA approved. Like so that's your argument and not.

Approved in other countries? Yeah, like other countries have banned it. Outlawed it. And we're like, fine, that's fine. It makes your Cheerios.

Seeing the difference in ingredients between countries. And it's like crazy.

America has.

So Cheerios is a bad example. Froot Loops is the best example. Like the fact that like they were like, oh, we can't do that. Well, you do it in Canada. You sell the. The same stuff with different dye, with natural dyes.

Yeah.

It's not as bright, but it also doesn't kill you. It's not poison. It's just so gross. They just, they're so bought and paid for. And here's the real problem. A lot of these motherfuckers, they go from being working at the FDA to cushy jobs in these major corporations.

Right.

It's like they have this golden parachute. 100%, 2.9% of FDA approved new drugs from 1980 to 2021 were withdrawn specifically for safety reasons. Out of 1310 total approvals were 210, 16% were discontinued for of all various reasons, including marketing factors. It's that low. I thought it was higher than that.

But look at down Below where it says, antibiotics face higher rates at 41%.

Whoa.

Okay. So all told, I wonder what the pharmaceutical drugs that get pulled are.

Yeah.

And antibiotics 41 is nuts.

Yeah. Well. And 23% of oncology.

I mean, indications withdrawn. Wow.

It's like, what the fuck? I mean, we're just like guessing on this shit.

Well, it's not guessing. It's like one of the problems with some of these studies is they're getting information from the pharmaceutical drug companies themselves. Like, I had this lawyer on that was explaining to me how he litigated a case against pharmaceutical drug companies and that one of the issues that they found was that these guys would run 10 tests and they would find no efficacy. But so they would rig a test in a very biased way to show the smallest amount of statistical significance, and then they would say it's statistically significant and they would push that. And their only motivation was profit. They weren't saying, this is going to cure cancer. This is going to stop blindness. No, it's like, we can make money on this. And there's even one of the cases with Vioxx where there was emails exchanged with the pharmaceutical drug companies talking about all the problems that it was going to cause. But we think we will do well with this.

Yeah.

Which is crazy.

I remember we looked that one up before. It's like, it's. Yeah. I mean, it's nuts how this. This medicine stuff works. But it's like there's still like with COVID vaccine, still things coming out. I saw last night on TV about. In this. In a small number of cases, it can cause heart. Some or whatever the. But we've seen a number of these announcements. Like all these. Finally this negative stuff about the vaccine, did it do any positive? Probably not, but all this fucking negative. And that was just coming out years later.

And we were bombarded with propaganda that it was necessary to stay alive. Like there was one, I think it was the Atlantic that had one headline that said, if you're unvaccinated, it might be time to make your end of life will. And then the same, same magazine, years later, Covid Vaccines may cause heart damage. Same exact magazine. Fuck you.

Yeah.

Cause you guys only said that because you were being pressured by your advertisers or you were being pressured by culture or society. You didn't look at the history of pharmaceutical medication and how much. They're full of shit. They've paid some of the biggest criminal fines in U.S. history because they fucking lied. And the same companies are still selling you shit. You think they came to Jesus? Do you think they're different now and they don't just try to make money?

Yeah.

And if you question that, you're a conspiracy theorist and a kook and you're taking horse medication. Like, it's fucking. It's so infuriating how many people buy into stuff, right? And how they don't even get in trouble for lying to everybody for so long, for years. Just lies and propaganda. Face no recourse. Not. Not. Not financial, not social.

Nobody's responsible.

Not reputational. No recourse.

That's disgusting.

I'm still waiting for Fauci to be strung up.

It can't be. He got a giant pardon by the auto pen.

Well, but what's. What's so frustrating too, is that. So they basically said, hey, you have to take this poison or you're going to lose your job.

Yeah.

Or you won't be able to do this or you won't be able to do that. So take this poison. Reason. But then something that we've shown works. Stem cell bpc. That's what they'll shit on. It's just like, why?

They're just worried about losing control and they're worried about losing profits and they're worried about compounding pharmacies, making this stuff. And they want peptides. They want all this stuff, but they want to be able to market it only under their brand. They want to own it. You know, they want to have patents for all this stuff. And that's where the real problem comes. A lot of these really affect effective things they. They can't patent.

Right. It's a. Yeah. All tied to the money. I have a code for peptides that weighs 12. I wish I could remember. Somebody could. Somebody could use it.

It's probably Cam. Is it Cam?

It's probably.

You don't know what your code is.

No.

Really? Should I call Brigham? Let's end this podcast. Well, you might. I don't want to bother him. We'll figure it out. Figure it out.

I'll put it on Camel.

Put it on his Instagram.

On my Instagram. Instagram story. I won't put it on an actual post. It's not that important.

Okay, well, put it on whatever. Do whatever the you want to do. I don't care.

Well, okay, so here's what I wanted to end the podcast with. What's one thing you learned this season? Bow hunting. Or wait, is this my call to how we end it?

Yeah, you can do it. You can do it.

You run the show.

What I learned this season. Oh, I always learn one thing every year. How important. Leg conditioning is so fucking important. God, maybe the M.O. especially elk hunting, it is the most important thing. Leg conditioning is fucking everything. If you can't get up those mountains and be fit and be able to do it over and over and over again over like five days of miles and miles and miles, like no matter what I did, I need to do more. That's what I learned that for sure. That's a big one.

You can never be in too good.

A shape, Never be in too good a shape, never be in too. Never have your legs conditioned enough. And you can over practice archery. I learned that too because I started developing this low back problem that I've been going to this trigger point massage. I told you I went today. Oh my God.

Helps.

I get so scared every time I go into this guy's office. He fucking tortures me. It's horrible. Especially when he does the it band with his fucking knuckles and his elbow. It's horrible. But it's super effective. I just, I got, essentially I got tendonitis in my lower back.

Overuse injury.

Just overuse use because I'm pulling back an 80 pound bow a hundred times over and over and over again, days after, days after. And every time it would hurt, I would be an idiot and I would go, ah, work through it. And you're obsessed. Yeah, I'm a little obsessive. It got bad.

But that's why you're great at things too.

Yeah, there's a, it's a double edged sword, but you got to learn like you were talking about not overdoing it in the, the hypoxic thing. You got to learn and I don't learn always, but I try to try to. I learned those things. Yeah, those, those are huge.

So. So okay, what are you gonna do for your legs then?

Continue not stopping with leg conditioning ever until September.

Okay.

Like the, like there was a lot of times. One thing is waist wells helped me. I got a weird left knee. But the latest round of stem cells that I had did real, they did a real improvement. Like I really notice it, it and I'm protecting it. I'm not doing anything stupid in the meantime, you know, like no jiu jitsu, like no getting heel hooked. Nothing, nothing that's going to aggravate it, right. And just build up my conditioning and maintain it over the year. That's, that's a big one.

Yeah, that's a good.

What did you learn, Cam Haynes?

Me? No, it's Adam's turn.

You go last. I think I learned a lot this season, but just like more about life than just in a bow hunting scenario. But I think the biggest thing that I took away from it is health, as in mental and physical and that you can always like step it up and you can always be better. And I think like, I just, you know, like family life, whatever excuses I can come up with, you know, business and not having the time to put in the extra. But finding the extra time because of how valuable it is and what the payoff in that is, you know, being physically healthy makes it a lot easier to be mentally healthy. Yeah.

Because you went for a while where you really didn't work out much.

I didn't, I just, I. I bow hunted a lot, you know, and I was on the tools a lot like being in, you know, the building game. But it's not. That's different. It's a different sort of health, you know, whereas in actually targeting, you know, losing weight, eating clean, you know, because it's not just about the gym. It's like everything that else. Else that goes with it. So I learned to eat a lot more cleaner. I started doing the hypoxic wellness studio. And I think a combination of those things and seeing the payoff in two weeks, you know, not talking months, it was like in two weeks I could see a massive difference. When you lined everything up. Eating healthy, that made the mountains a lot more easier and a lot more enjoyable. I'm not saying I did more of the mountains. I think I only covered the same sort of miles, but it was just a lot more enjoyable. And that example that I kept saying to you, like going from the bottom of the mountain to the top without having four or five breaks in between, when you're like. And hurting, it was just a lot more enjoyable.

I'd stop, you know, and it's just like I wasn't even taking deep breaths. I was already scanning the mountains for a bull, you know, And I think it just become a lot more enjoyable. And then getting the headspace from that too. Whether it's from me feeling better, whether it's from better plasticity of the mind. I just. Overall I just felt a lot better, A lot more connected, a lot more grateful as well. As in. Because you feel good.

Yeah.

So it's easier to think of things more and be more grateful.

I like that. That's. Well, what I took from that is you said climbing the mountain is more enjoyable to me. That means you're going to make better decisions.

Yes.

You're going to be when you're hunting, you know, because when we're fatigued, there's this famous saying, fatigue makes cowards of us all. But it also. We make poor decisions when we're fatigued. So you being at a higher level just physically allows you to hunt better is what I always think. Because we're not taking shortcuts, we're making better decisions. We're reading the animal better. We're instead of like, looking for a. Because we're gas, so we don't want to kick things, so we're looking at the ground more instead, our heads up and we're reading the situation better. So it's just results in just better hunting. And you enjoy it more.

Yeah, definitely.

I love that. What I learned is that I think I. I enjoy the success of others, and this has been reinforced over the years. But this year specifically, I enjoy being part of the success of others and taking others like new hunters and just sharing our lifestyle with them and just what's important to me. And it gives me a chance to share. When you talk to somebody on the phone, you're not getting deep. But when you're on a hunt, you get that opportunity and they're more. I don't know if they have to listen because they can't go anywhere or it's just they're more interested in listening. But it allows me to really, like, share why nature in the mountains and what I do is important. And it seems like it really resonates with people. And it's just that has given me so much strength and. I don't know, and purpose. It's just sharing our lifestyle with others. That's what I've learned, that. That drives me.

You've been like that for a long time, too. Like that first buffalo hunt that we went on back in Australia, and you killed a bull. And it was like, I was as happy for you as if I killed it. And then when I killed my bull, it might have been the last day. Like, it was the same. It was all like, hugs. And that was awesome. And I could see it glowing in your face. You know, that you want you. You relish in other people's success as well.

Gentlemen, this was our awesome. Thank you. Always great to hang out with you guys. Love you, too. All right, bye, everybody.