Transcript of #2263 - Gad Saad

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You're gorgeous.

You are too, you beautiful bastard. Come on.

Can I read you something?

Oh, okay. You wanna read me something?

This is from my son just before I came on the show. Hi, daddy. I was wondering if the show will be live anywhere and tell Joe that I say hello and I love his show. Oh. You just made his life.

How old is he?

Well, last week was his bar mitzvah.

Oh, so he's 13?

He's 13.

Okay. And it was That's about the age you shouldn't be listening to my show yet. You used to disturb me, when I would meet my youngest daughter's friends when they were, before high school. Yeah. And they would say they love my podcast.

I was like, jeez, this is really not for you. Like, some of these subjects Yeah. Yeah. Not for you. But the kids today, they're not 12 year olds when I was a 12 year old.

Yeah. These kids have a far more advanced understanding of the world for good or for bad.

Yeah. Probably

I mean, I don't know if it's good or bad. Because, I mean, I think our childhood, we were more exposed to things than our parents were. I don't necessarily think that's bad. So why would I think it's bad for kids today?

I think the explosion though is Yeah. You could go on and see porn that you and I don't even know they exist.

Yeah. It is an issue. Yeah. That that most certainly is a problem. But I don't know, if it's worse or better.

Yeah. Do you

know what I'm saying? Like, I would rather have the loss of innocence that I had as a 14 year old than the loss of innocence my parents had. I think they just lived in a more ignorant time And with knowledge, you're also gonna get all the bad stuff. Like, I see a lot of assassination videos.

Yeah. Okay. You know, it's funny you say, the age of innocence because I've always said that the 2 things that protect me in life were my Belgian shepherds, whom whom I love. And I I saw, by the way, that you were talking recently about Belgian Malinois. Yeah.

So my we've my kids have grown up with by by the way, the Belgian Malinois is 1 of 4 types of Belgian shepherds. The only difference across the 4 types is that the Belgian Malinois has short hair, whereas the ones that we had have longer. They even look more wolfish, more intimidating. Scary dogs. And so, anyways, so I always said that the 2 things that protect me when I sort of enter the the sanctity of my home was the love of my family, my Belgian shepherds, and the innocence of my children.

Mhmm. Because, you know, the world out there is ugly, and then you go back home.

True.

And so once that becomes polluted because they just know more, I feel like I'm losing part of them.

That's interesting. I don't think you should think that way. I think they're human beings and you should want them to know things. It's just that we enjoy the position of being the person that has all the deep dark knowledge of the world and dealing with this innocent child that wants to watch Yeah. Dora the Explorer.

You know? Dora. You know, like Peppa Pig. Yeah. Peppa Pig, all those kind of shows.

And there's, you know, there's something beautiful in watching a little person learn stuff about the world and and shocking when they find out about, like, murders and danger and scary things and, you know, and then their their realm of knowledge expands to,

you know What amazes me is seeing my children get a political awakening. So my son, who's really precocious, he's 13, my daughter's 16, She wasn't as into it, but during the last US elections, maybe because of the TikTok stuff and so on, she became she sort of woke up to it, and she would come to me and say, you know, why do we like Trump? Why don't we like and so

Mhmm.

I saw an awakening in her that my son already had. I mean, he literally will sit with me, watch I mean, Tucker is no longer on, but he would watch Tucker with me and have conversations with me when he was 11, 12. My daughter came a bit later into the game, but it's so rewarding to see them wake up to these things and have meaningful conversations with me on these topics. It's beautiful.

God, I didn't know anything about politics blissfully blissfully unaware when I was 13.

Is that right?

Right. But I did worry about, Russia. When I was in high school, everybody was terrified before the fall of Soviet Union. We were terrified that we're gonna go to war with Russia. It was like a thing that was hovering over our head every day.

Yeah.

That was kind of all I knew about politics. Like, Russia bad, United States good, Russia bad wants to kill United States. Like, that's what we're basically told. All the movies like Red Dawn, you know, Russia invades America.

Can I incorporate some professorial elements to what you just said? Do. So 1 of my intellectual heroes is John von Neumann, who was a Hungarian Jewish polymath. He was a mathematician. He was a game theorist.

And 1 of the things that he did, he was 1 of the pioneers of using game theory. Do you do you know what game theory is? Yes. In economics? Yeah.

Okay. Yes. Do you want me to explain it to our viewer? Please. So a a classic example of a of of a game theory context would be the prisoner's dilemma.

Right? You you capture 2 prisoners. You take them apart as the cops do. Each of them can either squeal, confess, or not. And depending on whether so there are 4 possibilities.

Both can confess. 1 confess. The other 1 so there's a 2 by 2 matrix, and there are different payoffs in each of these matrices. And then the question is, what is the optimal behavior? So that's called game theory because you you use game theoretic, you know, framework to model what should be some optimal behavior.

Well, in the context of the Cold War, that's when game theory was first being applied, that the Russians can or the Soviets can nuke us or or not. We can nuke them or not. Mhmm. And so there are all these models that were developed. So, for example, mutually assured destruction Mhmm.

Is a outshoot of understanding game theory. And so for the ones who are watching the show, John von Neumann is the definition of how I think an intellectual should be very broad thinker. He can both discuss mathematics or economics or game theory. He died, I think, too young, but he got his PhD at the age of 23. Check him out, John von Neumann.

Wow. 23? 23 years old from Hungary. Incredible. Yeah.

People like that just make you feel like such a dummy. I mean,

I was impressed, with myself because I got my PhD at my in my late twenties.

That's still pretty good.

Well, he beat me by many, many years, so I'm a little ant compared to him.

It's bizarre when you see, like, young teenagers that are in college already because they've gone through their entire high school course. Yeah. Yeah. By the time they're 14, 15 years old. Yeah.

Now at 16, they're in college. Yeah. So strange.

Now, of course, as you know, the danger of that is that you're not at the right social developmental phase.

Of course.

Yeah. So, yes, you can solve calculus really easily, but you can't speak with people who are 4 years older than you. So you end up being crazy? Yeah. So it's it's so I'm not I'm not sure if I I support this kind of fast tracking because there's Right.

There's an element of just being with the right people at the right age.

That is true. But also when you have an extraordinary mind, you you wanna give that extraordinary mind fuel. You you have someone who caught lightning in a bottle. Yeah. You know, and you you wanna help that.

Yeah. I mean, and maybe there's a way to do it where the parents come with the kid to school or something like that. But isn't it strange though that you and I at our age, the idea of talking to someone 4 years older than us is, like, so what?

Yeah.

Like, what's the big deal? Isn't it weird? Like, accelerated learning that you have as a child is so rapid and so profound that a 4 year age gap is nuts.

Well, speaking of accelerated learning, my biggest regret, I may have discussed this with you before or not, but, my parental regret is that we never taught our children all of the languages that we speak at home. So so I speak my mother tongue is Arabic, and I also learned French because from Lebanon and then moving to Montreal. Then I learned English and I also speak Hebrew. And then my wife, because she's Lebanese Armenian, she speaks Armenian. So between between the 2 of us, we speak 5 languages, but here's the here's the the rub.

If I speak to them in Arabic or Hebrew, my wife won't understand. If she speaks to them in Armenian, I won't understand. So we just settled on French and English. So rather than them now being the super exotic, you know, 5 language speaking kids, they only speak the very vanilla French and English.

Yeah. But it's still 2. It's it's well, 99 percent

of Americans. Americans. I agree. They don't even master 1 language.

Barely no English. Very And they have separate versions of English.

You know, actually, I was

Slangs and dialects.

I was, I I posted on on x that I while I was coming to Texas, I'm also soon going to South Carolina to Georgia to Florida to Mississippi. And so I said, if I'm going to fit in in the South since I'm doing this big, what are some absolute must expressions that I must have? So the ones I came up with, and you'll add to that, I'm fixing to leave. Okay. Bless your heart.

Bless your heart. Y'all. Y'all. All y'all. That's that's all I got.

Yeah. Don't use any of those.

No? No. Why? No. Because Too cliche?

They're gonna know you're faking it. They're gonna know I'm faking

it because I'm not tall enough to be a Texan.

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Seriously, get on this. But the thing is, like, saying it like that, you can't. With if you don't have a southern accent and you're throwing y'alls around, people are like, get out of here with that. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It's just a weird 1. And then not that the accent here is so dense, like, the the Texas accent is probably much stronger in the rural areas

Yeah.

Or in small cities and stuff like that. Austin is pretty mixed with a bunch of people from all over the place. So I think the just the even the general Texas accent here is fairly muted.

Yeah.

Do you agree with that, Jamie? Does that make sense?

I mean, there's

definitely y'alls are Lot of y'alls. Thrown around, but that's about it. Right. But it's not a it's not a Texas accent. Black dude here in other parts of the state.

There's other parts of the state you talk to people, like, that's a little motherfucking Texas accent. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's a very specific way that they talk that's pretty cool. But it's, it's very distinct, you know. It makes you know where you're at.

Like, New Yorkers. Like, if you're in New York and you go to an an Italian deli and you're talking to this fucking guy and he's making you a sandwich, you know, like my friend Giovanni, like, it's this like, it's fun. It's like they're talking the way they talk. It's like it's it's a very specific way of talking. It's cool.

I was gonna say that you're gonna get me in trouble because I think I mentioned to you last time that the biggest trouble I ever faced was 2 shows ago when I was here, and I made a joke about the French Canadian accent.

Yes. You did. So I

get very upset at you. I am hereby stating that in nature, the most beautiful auditory orgasm is to listen to the French Canadian accent.

But now they think you're lying

because now you're No. I've

just learned. You're a flip flopper. Flip flopper is a weird 1 to me because it's like, wait a minute. What do you do when you encounter new information?

That's right.

Don't you change your mind? Yeah. Like, this idea that someone who is running for office, especially. Right? It's always like presidential candidates and senate candidates.

You should never you should always be consistent. Yeah.

Which is so crazy. Like, shouldn't you learn from new information?

So in in in behavioral decision making, in psychology or decision making, there's a whole field that studies what are the types of cognitive traps that people succumb to precisely to not alter their original position.

Mhmm.

And Leon Festinger, I don't know if you know, he's the he's the pioneer who developed the theory of cognitive dissonance. Uh-huh. And so he has an amazing quote, which I use in 1 of my earlier books, in the parasitic mind, where he basically says the types of mental machinations that the average human being will engage in to make sure that there's cognitive consistency in his mind? Because incoming information that contradicts my anchored position

Right.

Makes me feel icky. So what are the kinds of mental gymnastics I'm going to go through to make sure that everything stays consistent in my mind, which as you might imagine is a is a big obstacle for me because I'm in the business of administering mind vaccines to people. Right? Getting them to think properly. But if the reality is that the architecture of the human mind is not built to change their positions, then I'm up Schitt's Creek.

Well, if you pay attention to x, you will see you are up Schitt's Creek. Yes. Especially Yeah. Liberal people on x, like super hyper liberal people that are unwilling to look at any positive aspects of any sort of Republican ideas or policies or Yeah. It's like that's what they're doing.

They're doing that 100%. Albeit, there are

a few people that have come around, let's say, to Trump. You know? Don't you think?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people have. But it's like they had to see, you know, 4 years of an awful administration to go, oh, okay.

Wait a minute. I think I think these people are bullshitting me. I think these people are fully incompetent. I don't think that guy is really the president. I think there's, like, a bunch of financial institutions and deep state operatives that are involved in this whole thing.

Like and that's when did you see that, interview with Mike Johnson when, he was talking about, conversations that he had with Biden about liquid natural gas?

I I don't think so.

And then Biden had signed an executive order, and it limited liquid natural.

And then he said, I didn't do that.

He said, I didn't do that. That's right.

That's right.

And so he couldn't get a meeting with Biden. They wouldn't let him have a meeting. It took a year before he got a meeting, and there was a bunch of people in the room in that meeting. And he wanted to be alone with Biden, but Biden kicked everybody out, so they had to listen. So when Biden kicked everybody out, then he was talking to him, and then he found out that Biden didn't even read these executive orders.

He was gone, man. We knew he was gone. I said he was gone in 2020.

Yeah.

The presidency ages you faster than radiation. Whatever the fuck happens when you're in that when you have all that information, all that pressure, and, like, the whole world's watching you and then there's fucking chaos everywhere and a probably a bunch of terrifying shit that most people don't have information on, but you do. And all of a sudden, you have this crazy position, like, you age like crazy. So he was already gone 4 years ago. So 4 years of getting cooked by being the president, like, that poor guy.

So I'll tell you background story, because we're talking about Trump, and, of course, he came on your show. I was speaking to 1 of his senior advisers prior to him agreeing to come on your show. And I was saying, you know, hey. I would love to have president Trump for a chat and so on. He goes, oh, that's that's fantastic.

What would you like to talk about? What what angle would you like to do, to pursue? I said, well, you know, I think that a lot of people have this wrong impression of president Trump. If if he was given a long format, setting where we can just chat, people would see that he's funny and he's not this ogre. And, of course, he came on your show.

There's no point coming on my show once he's been on your show, and I think you did exactly that with him so that a lot of people several people that I know who hated Trump after they sort of watched showing, they're like, he's kind of cool. And so I that was exactly what I was hoping to do had I had the privilege of having him chat with me, and, of course, you pulled it off.

Yeah. That's the only way to talk to people, and I wanted to do that with Harris too. I I wanted to be able to talk to her as a human. Just have a conversation with the I know there's a human in there. I know this this whole system's fucked, but I I've talked about this before, but there's this 1 interview that she does where she talks about meeting her mother and father-in-law for the first time.

And it's so funny when she talks about her mother-in-law grabbing her face, he goes, oh, look at you. You said she's laughing, but she's laughing genuine. It's not that weird performative laugh that she does sometimes. It's really funny. And I'm like, there's a human in there.

Like, that would be fun to just talk to a person.

Do you I mean, obviously, you've spoken to thousands of people for 3 hour chunks. Do you think had you had the opportunity, you would have been able to pull out 3 hours of worthwhile conversation with her?

I don't know. You don't you don't know until you do it. You know? It's it you don't know also based on people's conversations with other people because people are different. To some people, they go into conversations like it's an interview.

Right? And so they don't they don't they can't establish a flow. Right? Yeah. Conversation like what you and I are having is a dance.

Exactly. We're both moving. We're moving we have to, like I actually call

it a tango, like, literally.

It is a tango. It's a tango. It's it's it's a dance, and you have to know that. And some people literally are having these things and don't know it's a tango. Yeah.

They think that it's an opportunity for them to expose people's flaws or catch people in viral moments Yeah. Or an opportunity to flex your intellect. It's there's a bunch of things. So it fucks with the flow because as a person listening, I wanna I wanna feel a genuine conversation. That's what I want.

Yeah.

Right? And you can get that out of almost anybody if they're willing to do it. But that you have to be skillful in how you negotiate it and how you do it. You have to think about it like it's like a dance.

So I'm gonna maybe be a bit more on let less charitable than you. I I don't think she's capable of doing it because it takes couple of things to be able to do what you just said. Number 1, it takes vulnerability and that you're laying yourself out there. Right now, I'm speaking straight without any script.

Right.

And I might say something stupid that's gonna be caught by millions of people, but I'm willing to take that chance for the joy of sitting and chatting with you. But if you're tight and you can't let yourself go, if you don't have the self assuredness to be able to be vulnerable, then you can't that's why she could only speak in those little chunks.

Perhaps, but it's also perhaps who is she talking to? Do they have the, the ability to or or do they have the personality? Do they have whatever it is that allows people to be comfortable and have a conversation? Yeah. Because all these conversations is just like the way I I talk about, like, these rambling speeches that she does, which she kinda rambles on.

It's because she's I know what it's like. She's trying to dismount. She doesn't know how to dismount. So it's pressure. Right?

But how is she verbally when there's no pressure? I bet she's a lot better. Everybody is. So that's the goal. Yeah.

The goal is to talk to her like a human like, there was a few things they didn't wanna talk about. I said, I don't care. We could talk about fucking groceries. I don't give a shit. We talk about flowers.

I don't or don't give a fuck. I just wanna talk. Like, let's talk. You don't wanna talk anybody who doesn't wanna talk about something, I don't need to talk to them about that.

Right.

You know, if you don't if you've had a UFO experience, you don't wanna talk about it, like, okay, let's talk about ghosts. What do you what do you think about Bigfoot? Like, I'll find out what you're about. We did. You and I talked about Bigfoot last time

when you explained to me how you've got off the Bigfoot train.

Yeah. I wanna believe. That's the problem. Yeah. The problem with Bigfoot is the same problem that I have with no.

I don't believe. But it's the same problem that I have with UFOs. Yeah. The problem is I am very biased. Look, there's a fucking UFO right behind me.

Right. Very, very biased. I there's a UFO on the desk. Look. That's the the sport model from, Bob Lazar, what he found in the area s Ford, Area 51.

Okay. I I am, I'm a romantic in that way. I wanna believe in stupid shit. Right. Right.

I do. I so I have to be careful. I have to be careful in what do I actually believe versus what do I wanna believe. Like, what does the data show me? And the data shows me, especially what I know now from being a hunter for 12 years and spending a lot of time in the woods and knowing how many do we we have, like, real accurate there's only 2 jaguars that we know of that are in North America and they know exactly where they are.

Like, you telling me just tell me this fucking giant ape has wandered around Seattle. Without anybody seeing them. Right. It's just not likely. Also, there's a bunch of us reasonable explanations.

First of all, have you ever been to the Pacific Northwest? You've been No.

I've been I've been to Seattle.

The woods up there are fascinating because it's essentially a rainforest.

Mhmm.

So there's so much rain that the forest is dense like these fingers.

Right.

Like, it's like a box of q tips. That's what I always describe it as. Like, there's no spaces. It's just trees everywhere.

Right.

There it's just there's no like big open spaces where you, you know, if you go to Montana, you go to the woods, you know, there's mountains and there's trees, but there's like space in between the trees.

It's expansive.

There's no fucking space up there. Right. It's a rainforest. It's like this. Right.

You don't see shit. And bears are known commonly to walk on 2 legs. They do it all the time. I've seen bears. Personally, with my own eyes, I've seen bears in the woods walk on 2 legs.

Right. They do it all the time. So if you're looking in between all these trees

and

something a 100 yards away is going in between trees and standing up tall. You just saw Bigfoot.

Right.

Meanwhile, you saw a black bear.

Yeah. Exactly.

Normal everyday average black bear, stand on its back legs. They do it all the time, and they could easily be 7 feet tall.

So, you know, earlier we're talking about how would you change your opinion once you have a position that's anchored. Yeah. So and now you're saying, you know, I'd love to believe in this stuff, but then incoming information comes in, and then I I kinda have to accept the fact that I can't believe this stuff. Well, that in a sense, was the exact topic of my doctoral dissertation. 30 I actually celebrated 30 years in, 2024.

What examples did you use? So I brought in, subjects into the lab. So let me tell you what the Okay. Topic was, and then I'll tell you how I we ran how I ran it. So the idea was to study what are called stopping strategies, which means when is it that a person has acquired enough information to stop and make a choice?

Mhmm. Now why is that important? Because classical economic theory argues that if you're going to maximize your utility when you're making a decision, you should look at all of the available information. You can't choose the car that maximizes your utility if you leave some information unturned. So that's called the normative theory, meaning that's how you ought to behave normatively if you wanna be a perfect decision maker, a rational decision maker.

But objectively speaking, that's not what we do. Right? Like, you and I, every decision that we make every day, we don't sample all of the relevant and available information before we make a choice. We sample until we have sufficiently sufficiently differentiated between the choices that you say, there's no point in sampling more information. I now have enough information to vote for Trump.

I have enough information to marry this girl, to choose this employee. So that's called the stopping strategy. So I was studying the cognitive strategies that people use when they're making the stopping decision. So what I did so to answer your question of how I went about doing it, I brought in people into the lab, and I made them make sequential binary choices. Binary choices means it's a choice between 2 alternatives.

Sequential means that they acquire 1 piece of information at a time on these 2 alternatives. This was not on a computer, and it's called the process tracing algorithm, meaning that it keeps track of every single behavior that the decision maker is making. It does that in the background. Mhmm. And so what I was looking at, they could acquire up to 25 attributes, let's say, choosing between apartments.

And I was tracking the cognitive processes that they were using and deciding when to stop and choose apartment a or choose apartment b. And then later, I applied that to other types of decisions. For example, mate choice. Right? So you could apply for anything.

You could apply choosing between, fitness instructors, choosing between political candidates to to vote for for anything. Right? Mhmm. The reason why it's binary, it's because it only operates once you're down to 2 final alternatives. You might have used another process to go from 10 alternatives.

Like, let's say, the primaries in the US system, we first go through republican primary, then we choose 1 final 1, and then we go through democratic, primary, we choose 1, and then the final 2 go head to head. That's when my model comes in. And so my model really explains how we make decisions across a bewildering number of cases, specifically how we stop and say, I'm marrying her. I'm hiring him. I'm voting for him.

So it was a a big a big deal.

So a a tipping point of information, like, when you have enough information to make a rational quality decision.

Exactly. So what you do actually is you set I mean, if if if I could show it to you on a curve, it would really be cool. It's you set you set a what's called a differentiation a differentiation threshold, which basically says that I have now sufficiently teased the part, the Mazda and the Toyota, that I've hit that threshold, that I'm sufficiently convinced that that decision would never be overturned even if I sample all of the remaining information.

That's a good example. A good example because when people are looking at cars and they're trying to figure it out, like, you and you start going over especially today, start going over all the details and different things they do, and then you get online, like, what's more reliable?

Yeah. You know? Yeah. And some some people use what's called the core attributes heuristic, which basically is there's only there might be 60 attributes that I might look at in a car, but I really care only about 4 attributes. I will sample those 4.

Whichever car is ahead after those 4, I'll buy that car. And so I studied all of those decision rule strategies.

What about emotions, though? Doesn't that play in there?

Great question. So later, once I had gotten my PhD, I started incorporating various types of emotional states to see where people shift those stopping thresholds.

Mhmm.

So 1 thing I did, it never got published, and we can talk about that. So I look I wanted to look at what happens to those stopping thresholds for dysphorics. Do you know what dysphorics mean?

Like, gender dysphoria?

No. Not gender dysphoria. Emotion. So dysphoria is like a mild state of a clinical depression. It's not, I'm gonna kill myself.

Okay.

But my wife left me. My dog died. Life sucks. So that's called dysphoria. It's the opposite of euphoria.

So there is a psychometric scale that you could administer to people to measure their dysphoria scores, and so I wanted to see whether nondysphorics, people who don't suffer from dysphoria, would make their stopping decisions in a different way than dysphorics. And I didn't have any a priori hypotheses. Why? Because the literature was very confused. Some theory said that dysphorics, by virtue of them being helpless and apathetic, life sucks, will actually acquire less information before they commit to a choice.

Then there was another school of thought that thought, no. Dysforex are so helpless that 1 of the ways that they can gain control over their lives is to look at more information. So because I couldn't come up with any a priori hypotheses and being an honest scientist, I said, I'm not gonna posit any hypotheses. I'm just gonna run it and see what I get. So I think I had 18 different measures that were comparing the maybe maybe 17 measures that were comparing the discourse to the nondysphorics on of which on 16 out of the 17, I got no effects.

Right? Now that to me was worthy of publishing, meaning that in this particular task, dysphoria doesn't seem to moderate the behavior. I send it to this top journal, actually called cognition and emotion. You're asking about emotion. The editor writes back to me, got gorgeous study, beautiful design, beautiful.

Unfortunately, given the number of null effects you got, I can't publish it. Now this is literally called in science, the null effects bias, or the drawer, which means what? You only end up publishing findings that give you an effect, and you put into the disappearance bin all of the findings that didn't get any effect. So when you then run a meta analysis do do you know what a meta analysis? When you run a meta analysis, it's not an actual accurate depiction of the totality of findings because all of those null effect studies were never published.

And so I tried to tell the the the psychologist in question, who, by the way, several years later, he was at USC and was hounding me because he's a super wokester. I couldn't believe how much he fell in my esteem. But, anyways, that's a separate separate I won't even mention his name, although he's worthy of being, shamed on the Joe Rogan show. And I wrote to him, I said, but I really think that, you know, you're succumbing to the null effects bias because I really it's worthy to publish this. This was, I think, in 1998.

It's information. It's information that is worthy of the the certainly, the scientific community should know about it. Well, I probably 1 of the first times I've ever discussed it was on this show. So, hopefully, at least it gets that attention, but it's not in the record.

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Go to ziprecruiter.com/rogan. Again, that's ziprecruiter dotcom/rogan. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. It's interesting that 1 of our biggest hurdles is the human ego does not want us to ever be wrong.

Right.

It's a giant hurdle and human beings for whatever reason, I guess it's part of the motivation of acquiring information and of advancing your ideas. We attach ourselves to ideas. And 1 of the things that I always tell young people, like, if you wanna if you wanna do better in life and not get tricked by your own bullshit, Don't be married to your ideas. Ideas are just ideas. You are not your ideas.

Ideas are some things that you fuck around with in your head and you explore and you talk about with friends, but you have to always be honest about them and never be attached to them. Yep. The problem with ideas is that ideas are just like everything else. Human beings grab them and they're stingy and they're like, mine. And I want my idea to win.

And you'll lie, so your idea wins, and it'll advance your career if your idea wins. And if you can even if you can unfairly dismiss or you you can be you could be unethical in how you're ignoring certain aspects of data for your opposing ideas. Like, people do that and succeed because of that, because academia, rewards them, the media rewards them, especially, you know, if they can publish in the New York Times or something like that, like, if they can make a story, like, you get rewarded for lying.

Yeah. So I can tell you a million I mean, this is my 31st year as a professor. I can read a paper and I can, just by looking at how clean their presentation of the data is, tell you that they cheated. Because the the the structure of the reality of data is never as clean as how it is presented in many of these journal. And then, by the way, not not to sort of tap myself on the shoulder, but some of the top people that I'm that I know who ended up getting caught for fabrication of data, I was in private circle saying, I bet you 80% of this guy's research is bullshit, and then it comes up to be the case.

Because I'll give you I'll give you an example. So I did a study and speaking about being wedded to your ideas. So I had a graduate student that worked with me on a really, really cool project, which we ended up publishing in 2009. Gorgeous paper on testosterone and so on. Really beautiful paper.

I noticed that as we were getting ready to run these studies, there was always a delay where he wasn't yet ready to kinda cast the die. And so 1 day we had gone for coffee, and I said, you know what I think? I think that maybe you're afraid that if right now in the rarefied world of us having just posited the hypotheses but not run the study, we live in a world where we it hasn't been falsified yet. So you're we're you're wedded to the idea. But you're I think you're scared that if we run the studies and the data doesn't come out and support, then the but guess what?

It doesn't matter because we're gonna reap some benefit from that. Well, true and he looked at me, and he was like, actually, you're exactly right, professor. I'm afraid to find out whether we're correct or not. I said, just let's do it. It was actually a study on, so there was 2 parts of the study, and I'm not sure if I've ever discussed it with you.

So I wanted to look at what happens to men's testosterone levels when they engage in acts of conspicuous consumption, and what happens to men's testosterone when they see other men engaging in acts of conspicuous consumption. Mhmm. And the general story, as you might imagine, is when I engage in an act of conspicuous consumption, my testosterone goes up because I I I had a social win. And when I see you, who's a competitor to me, getting into your fancy Maserati, then my tail goes between my legs. So You

feel bad?

So my testosterone goes down. So we designed 2 gorgeous studies. We ran them. It was gorgeous. It was beautiful.

By the way, I always joke that for study 1, we actually had people drive a Porsche that we rented and a beaten up old, sedan. And after each driving condition, we took salivary assays so that we can measure the testosterone. And I always joke, try to get from a granting agency research funds so that you could rent a Porsche. Now only when you can do that, you're a good scientist. Anyways and so we ran the studies, and several of the hypotheses that we posited turned out to be vertical, but several were falsified.

But to the credit of the editor, unlike the other guy, he found value in even the the findings that were contrary to what we had expected, because we had an post hoc explanation for why it didn't work out. Mhmm. And so lesson to everybody who is an aspiring scientist, always be honest. Don't fudge the data. Don't go back and pretend that you have hypothesized the stuff after you see what the data results are.

Oh, is that what they do? Oh, tons. Tons. As a matter of fact, I Human ego. Human ego.

Well, that's that's I told this whole story to your point. Exactly.

Yeah. It's awful. It's awful because we rely on experts. Yeah. And a lot of times, experts are just like everybody else.

They're competing with these other experts, and they're trying to get ahead, and they're willing to bullshit. And also there's financial reward and bullshitting. There's people that would like them to bullshit a little bit and make it a lot easier for us to pass this thing that we're trying to do. Do a little bullshitting.

Exactly. Yeah. I I'll I'll add something else. Actually, I'm gonna I'm I'm giving a talk at 1 of the universities here in Austin as part of this trip, and I'm gonna talk about the so I'm old enough at this point, although I'd like to think that I'm still have many years left, but, that I can sort of look back at, you know, what are some of the great things that I've faced as a professor? What are some of the things that I that I'm disappointed in?

Probably the number 1 thing that most disappoints me in my fellow academics, and I I don't mean that as a haughty thing, is how nonintellectual most of them are. Most of them are just playing a game. I mean, obviously, they're intelligent. They're in the sense that they've gotten a PhD. They've gotten a professorship.

They they they are staying your lane professors. They know their little methodology. But you can't sit with them at a party and talk about things that is not within their areas of specialty. They're not these big polymaths. They're not Leonardo da Vinci.

And so that has disappointed me because sort of my fantasy of becoming an academic was Mhmm. That every Friday for Shabbat dinner, I'd be inviting all of these intellectual colleagues of mine, and my children will be growing up hearing the art historian and the mathematician and the Right. And and the and my children and I are immersed in an endless orgy of ideas all day. Whereas most professors are just sort of mundane, publish or perish, get tenure, game the system. And so that left me with a very and that's why I do my thing because I I don't play those games, and so that's been disappointing.

Well, that competition, it creeps into medical science as well. Yes. And the the really scary I was seeing reading about this case where this doctor was treating people for cancer that didn't have cancer. He was giving chemotherapy to all these people that didn't have cancer. And, and when they confronted him, 1 1 of the things that he said is you have to eat what you kill in this business.

Wow. So it was essentially, he was saying in order to thrive as a cancer doctor, he had to diagnose more people with cancer than actually had cancer. And he was in some way just it and if not justifying, explaining Yeah. The thought process that led him to do this, which is so crazy. That's unbelievable.

But that's the reality of being a person. It's like your your ego and your mind and the justifications that you can make for doing certain things. I mean, this is why we have war. Right? It's this is what war is.

The ultimate expression of that justification of the most horrific things Yeah. Because you believe it's the right thing to do.

Exactly.

Or because it benefits you or because if you don't, something's going to happen. Yeah. You know? And Well, I

I I always say and you you might have seen me post it often on x. I always say the most dangerous force in nature are parasitized mines. Yes. Right? It it's I mean, the tsunami is is devastating, but it's a 1 bleep.

Well, what's interesting about you and your work is you predicted essentially the entire COVID reaction and and the freak out and the woke mob, the the whole the whole left freak out way before it was going on. You caught, like, the first sounds of the drums in the far distance. You're like, guys, we gotta get the fuck out of here. And everybody's like, relax. I don't hear any drums.

And you're like, dude, I heard drums. I mean, that Viking drums. That is literally my autobiography. Yeah. Well, that's what you did.

You really did do that. You you you were way ahead of it and you were widely criticized by a bunch of those people who turned out to be these woke dipshits. They eventually fell into the trans

and

they all, you know, put their fucking bios on their gender bios and their Twitter.

Trans, t r a n c e. Yeah. The trans. But they fell into the trans of trans, t a Yeah. T r a n s.

Well, trans was just the ultimate expression of this preposterous idea. Yeah. This inclusion, like, this idea that the more suppressed you are or the more maligned you are, the more social credit we have to give you. Yeah. And this is in the name of equity.

So we bump a biological male who thinks he's a woman ahead of actual biological women to the point where it's like literally victimizing these women and we ignore it. We try to pretend it doesn't happen. That's Whether it's in schools or it's like in the workplace and that's that's the ultimate expression of this ability to completely ignore reality because it doesn't align with your ideology.

Well, so I have some good news, not phenomenal news, but in the same way that there is now this cataclysmic change that's happening because of Trump and so on, you know, DEI is out and so on. Mhmm. I'm definitely seeing a well, certainly a growing number of institutions that are reaching out to me who are suddenly very interested and keen on speaking with me.

Well, that's good.

Yeah. So that's wonderful. And and not in a in a gleeful sense of, hey. I was right, but in the sense that

Well, hey. You were right. That's the first 1. You were right.

No. But we're we're we're redirecting the ship. We people are waking up. Yeah. So it's not just about me.

And, you know, so, like, this year, I'm I'm a visiting professor and global ambassador at, Northwood University. I took a leave from my home university because I couldn't stand the ham Hamas, crazies and so on. And, you know, if you go to that school, you'll be hard pressed to see 1 parasitic idea.

Well, that's great.

There are, you know, University of Austin here in in is trying to do big things. There are several other schools

How's that going?

But it's it's coming along. There are I mean, it it it had hit a bit of a couple of obstacles, but I think things are, moving on track now.

Now is the idea behind the University of Austin I only peripherally know what's going on. I know they brought in a lot of very interesting Barry Weiss is a big part of it.

Yeah. She's on the board of trustees.

But but what are they trying to do? Are they trying to have a real university like every other university where you get accredited?

Completely real university. Actually, they're now I think they just admitted their 1st class of 2028. Oh, wow. Fully accredited. And the idea is to return to broad classical liberal, not in liberal in the political sense, but, like, you you read the ancient Greek stories.

You, you know, you read Right. Homer. You you read, you you read Socrates and Aristotle. Like, real basic education without any of the parasitic stuff. But I don't it's not just an anti woke school.

It's a return to that broad education. I mean, you know, I was reading some of the stuff that the founding fathers write. Mhmm. And not no disrespect to Kamala Harris or Joe Biden. When you read stuff that Thomas Jefferson and George Washington and James Madison wrote, those were men of letters.

Mhmm. Right? They Sure. Right? I mean, they they can they can quote Cicero and, you know, and so on.

Well, I think what University of Austin I I haven't gone to visit yet, but from my understanding is they're they're trying to create students who are really well read, well, you know, have critical thinking abilities. So it's not just a correction to the woke stuff, but let's let's return to meaningful, well grounded, all encompassing education. And if they pull it off, what a great thing.

Yeah. Education is not supposed to

be just indoctrination.

It's supposed to be giving you a broad perspective on a bunch of different ways that people look at the world. And what we know about the world, that's a fact. Yeah. And you're supposed to be able form your own conclusions. The way you're supposed to be able to do that, you're supposed to see people of different ideologies debate and have conversations

about things.

You're not supposed to pull fire alarms and and shut people off because you don't like what they're saying. You're supposed to have someone from your side who can calmly and reasonably and, you know, in in a in a way that's encouraging to other people to think the way they're thinking. Yeah. Like, you you have to be persuasive. There's has to be something about what they're saying that go, wow, that guy's making some really good points, or wow, she just shut all that down.

Now I'm thinking about it differently. Like, you don't that's like a beautiful part of education is that you might have some might like, how many people out there like, wasn't Ronald Reagan at 1 point in time? I think Ronald Reagan was like he was he was so left wing that he was investigated by the government. See if that's true. I think I think I've read this that Ronald Reagan at 1 point in time was like a hardcore lefty.

Well, he certainly was lefty. I don't know how hardcore, but yeah.

I think he was a hardcore lefty. And I think he was I think during the McCarthy era, I think somewhere around then, I think he was even investigated.

Yeah. Okay.

I think I think that's true. I'm not sure if that that it was during the McCarthy era, but he was a really hardcore left wing. He changed his mind. People and how do you change your mind? You change your mind by evidence, by interacting with people that have different opinions that you didn't consider before, and now you do.

And you have to be honest about your ideas and mold them over in your head and figure out why do I think this way now.

So 1 1 thing about, sort of this broad education I was mentioning earlier, John von Neumann, who's this kind of polymath. He he's an expert in so many things. He's a generalist. Yep. Joe, many of the biggest, scientific innovations have happened at the intersection of interdisciplinarity because many of the biggest scientific problems necessitate expertise in many different domains.

So the mapping of the human genome could not come from only 1 discipline. It took biostatisticians and biologists and geneticists and bio all kinds of different expertise to put it all together. Right? And so 1 of the things that I've been trying I mean, certainly in my own research, I, you know, I publish in medicine and in marketing and in psychology and in behavioral science and evolution. I I've lived my life as an interdisciplinary, but we don't train our students to be this way.

Right? You are a accounting major. Mhmm. You are my Stay in your lane. Stay in your lane.

You Yeah. You stay in your silo. As a matter of fact, our universities are architecturally designed so that we never speak to people who are if you were in the psychology department, you never talk to someone from the finance department. But what if we were to speak to each other to study the psychology of personal finance? And now we've just created a synergy that we never thought of before.

Right? Right. So 1 of the things that I'm hoping to do with some of the universities that are now interested in, you know, making me an offer is to build something that I've long dreamt of, which I call the the Consilience Institute. Consilience. Have we ever talked about consilience on the show?

I don't know. Okay.

So even if we have, let me repeat it. Yes. So consilience is a term that was sort of reintroduced into the vernacular by E. O. Wilson, who's a he recently passed away, a Harvard entomologist.

He studied social ants. In the late nineties, Joe, he wrote a book called Consilience, Colon, Unity of Knowledge. So consilience refers to are you able to create links between different disciplines? Can you create an organized tree of knowledge? So he was arguing, as I believe as well, that evolutionary theory is the meta consilient framework that can link many different disciplines.

So for example, you could study literature using evolutionary theory, and this field is called Darwinian literary criticism. And can you guess what that might mean? Or do you want me to just jump Yeah.

Just jump on.

Okay. So Darwinian literary criticism means when you study certain literature narratives that have stood the test of time, the reason why they tickle our fancy is because at their base, they have certain universal themes that map onto key evolutionary, right, paternity uncertainty, sibling rivalry, romantic jealousy. So in other words, there are 6, 7, 8 key evolutionary templates that drive much of the great literature, whether it be Arabic literature, whether it be ancient Greek literature, whether it be Japanese literature. There's always that same template, and that's why they they cater to our scent. That's why I could understand what an ancient Greek poet had wrote 2,500 years ago, and I I get what how he's feeling jealousy.

Mhmm. Because you and I are running on the same softwares that that guy did. And so that would be called Darwinian literary criticism. You could apply evolutionary theory to architecture. Okay?

So I'm trying to give examples that you wouldn't have thought of. So architects usually are trained in how to design buildings to minimize cost and maximize the speed with which you can build a thing. They're not trained to design buildings that are consistent with our biophilic nature. Biophilic means love of nature. So there are certain architectural designs that actually make us be more productive.

Here's a simple example. Just having more windows increases productivity. As a matter of fact, there's a great study that was published in maybe Nature or Science, 1 of those 2 journals of in 1984, I think, where the researcher did only the following experimental experimental manipulation. Half the people who had just done surgery were placed in a room with a window, and the other half were placed in a wind in a room without a window. Everything else is controlled.

It's the same surgery. Everything else was controlled. The 1 that was in a room with a window had many better outcomes, different metrics. Just that 1 manipulation being able to see the light. Right?

So so they are so, by the way, there's a field called biophilic architecture, which tries to incorporate our innate love of nature in the design of architectural, you know, buildings or interior spaces and so on. So that would be another example of using evolutionary theory in a completely different field. You can use evolutionary theory in medicine. You could use evolutionary theory in consumer behavior. And so I argue that we can build an institute called the Consilience Institute, where filmmakers from Hollywood can come to this institute and do a 6 month stage studying about how to develop cool scripts that adhere to evolutionary principles.

And, evolutionary computer scientists can also come in. What's unifying all of us is an understanding of the importance of evolutionary theory in these very disparate disciplines.

That's fascinating.

Pretty cool stuff.

It's very, very cool stuff. Because it's it's always so interesting to think of what what are the motivations of human thinking and how where where where do we trip on ourself? Where do we trip on our own? Just our own programming essentially. When we're essentially operating with a a system that was in place back when we were hunter and gatherers.

We have the same system.

And that's, by the way, called in evolutionary medicine, what you the the exact words you just said, it's called the mismatch hypothesis. The argument is that many of and I know you're very interested in health, so I think you'd like this. This is, this is not my research. This is from other evolutionary medical guys. I think the top 9 killers in health are related to the mismatch hypothesis, which means that something that could have been perfectly adaptive a 100 years ago and the modern world becomes maladaptive.

So for example and hence the mismatch. So whether it be colon cancer or diabetes or heart disease or so on, what ends up happening with each of these diseases is that misalignment between what was evolutionarily adaptive back then and evolutionary maladaptive now creates that health condition. Let me give you a concrete example. We've evolved the taste buds, the gustatory preferences to prefer fatty foods whether because of caloric uncertainty, caloric scarcity. That makes perfect evolutionary sense when as a hunter gatherer, I have to spend 30,000 calories to go out and hunt, and I may not return with game.

But then when I do get the the the game, then I I gorge on that meat because I don't know when I'm gonna eat next. Right? In today's environment of plenitude, I don't face caloric uncertainty and caloric, scarcity. I become fat. I overeat because that mechanism of gorging on fatty foods still is in me.

Mhmm.

So we still have that mechanism, but it becomes maladaptive. Mhmm. And so incorporating an evolutionary lens into medicine often ends up with completely different medical interventions than that which the typical physician who's not trained in evolutionary medicine would have come up with.

That makes sense. Yeah. Well, unfortunately, so many doctors don't even take into account so many factors in health. Yeah. And this thing that you're talking about, this, desire for fatty foods is, that's a great example.

And, you know, 1 of the best ways that people found to sort of mitigate the effects of that is to only eat protein. When you go on 1 of those carnivore diets, 1 of the things that's so interesting about it is you naturally limit the amount you eat.

Yeah.

Your body achieves sort of a homeostasis

with your

food because you're not consuming like I I can sit down and eat a steak, a steak alone, and I'll be fine. But if there's mashed potatoes sitting right there with gravy or there's some pasta or there's a piece of bread with some butter, like, I'll go in. I'll go in. But if I'm only eating steak, I don't feel the need to eat anything else. Yeah.

I'm fully satisfied. I'm not starving. I know, like, oh, my god. I need more food. It's like I've had plenty of food, but, oh, that looks good.

And that is just the trick. That's the trick. But if you can get past that trick and just be disciplined with your diet and eat as much as you want of eggs and fish and meat, and you will lose weight, like, in a shocking way, and you'll feel a lot better. And it's kind of kind of disturbing.

So are you are you on an all protein diet right now?

I'm I'm, like, 90 plus percent only meat. 90 plus percent. Every now and then, I'll eat a cookie. Like, I'm not ridiculous.

Like,

I'll have tacos if they're you know, I love tacos. Good solid Mexican taco.

Right.

But it's like, I know the reality of what food is. Dessert is just fun. It's just mouth fun. It's just mouth pleasure. So I it's like, oh, this is so good.

It's tiramisu is delicious. I love it. But that's just because I enjoy life. I like I like going to a restaurant and a great chef cooks you a great meal. I don't think, oh my god, there's gluten in it.

I'm not doing that for nutrition. I'm doing that for enjoyment.

Right.

This is for passion and love and a glass of wine and, you know, good conversation with friends and, you know, eating delicious food. You just enjoy you're taking part in a pleasurable experience that's essentially art that was created by a chef.

Right.

So that's different to me. But when it comes to food, like, what do what do I use to to fuel my body? It's mostly meat. Mostly wild game meat and and rib eye steaks. Yep.

That's what I eat.

I had a rib eye yesterday at my hotel.

I need fat, I need a lot of protein, and then I'm good. And if I just eat that, my brain operates better, my body feels better, less inflammation. The brain fog is the craziest 1. When I went back to the carnivore diet, I took a lot a lot of time off and then I went back to it. I was telling Jamie, I was like, dude, I feel like I have like a whole another gear, like, intellectually.

Like, I Amazing. I'm not I mean, I don't search for thoughts as much when I'm eating only like that.

It's palpable. You feel that. Yeah.

But but for me, it's it's because I have so many conversations with people, I know when I'm off. I know when I'm like, oh, I'm slow. Like, if I just flew in from fucking Italy or something like that, I'm tired. Yeah. I'm jet lagged.

It's a little harder to get the gears turning. You know, I don't feel like I'm at my best. And I always notice the difference when I'm eating well. Always.

Right. What are your thoughts on, and I know very little about this, so I'm really asking you because I I don't know anything about it. All that Ozempic stuff, are you are you for it? Are you against it? What's I

think if you're morbidly obese, it's probably a good idea to do something that helps you get going.

Because even if the side effects are bad, it's better than you're gonna Bro, you're

dying. Yeah. If you're £500, you're fucking dying. You have all the comorbidities. You probably have diabetes.

You probably have all sorts of shit wrong with you. You can't be that big. And if the if you just don't know what to do and you don't know where to turn and your habits are so deeply ingrained in your psyche that you can't pass up ring dings and you can't stop eating sugary cereal or whatever the fuck it is that's your thing, Ozempic is probably a good way to get going. You know, I wish people would just get going with discipline and they would just get going with food choices. I would I would like that.

Yeah.

But goddamn that's hard, especially if you're so far down the road because it takes a long time. You know, when someone, you know, says, like, how do you stay in shape? I'm, like, because I stay in shape.

Yeah.

So that's the thing. Right? I'm 57 years old, but I worked out like this when I was 17.

Yeah.

So, like, I don't do anything different. I keep this thing going. I keep the party rolling. And I never let it get fat because I mean, I've gotten fat before but never out of shape. I just gotten fat because I ate too much food.

Right.

I've never gotten to the point where I wasn't fit. I wasn't exercising. I don't think you should ever let yourself get there because it's too fucking hard to get back. Now, if you've gone 39 years of your life doing nothing and just eating potato chips and drinking Mountain Dew and now you're £500, you don't know what to do, you're looking at a long journey. You're looking at a long journey to getting healthy again.

Yeah. It's a long road and it's hard to do a long journey because you're not gonna see it every day. You're not gonna see any results. You're gonna look in the mirror. You still still see your all this extra meat and fat.

You're gonna feel disgusted with yourself. You wanna look like the guys at the gym. It's gonna take forever.

Well, I wonder I mean, I guess we can calculate that. But for every amount of weight that you put on or lose Mhmm. What's the ratio of the speed? Meaning, it it only takes me 3 weeks to put on £10 if I eat badly. Let's suppose that that number were 3 weeks.

What's the number, the temporal number, the time number of how long it would take me to lose £10? It's probably 3, 4, 5 times that. So that there's Well,

it depends on what you're doing. Okay. So it depends on how you're losing the weight, and it depends on are you doing are you do you have multiple things going on simultaneously? Like, have you started exercising? Have you stopped, drinking sugary sodas?

Right.

Have you changed your diet completely? Are you getting enough sleep?

Right.

All those things factor in. Getting enough sleep is a giant factor. 1 of the times that people make the worst food choices is when they're tired. Yes. I know that for a fact.

If I come home from the comedy club and it's like 1 o'clock in the morning and I'm hungry, I fucking eat everything that's there. I eat everything. I'll eat cookies. I'll eat whatever the fuck I want. Because I'm like, I wanna eat what I wanna eat right now.

I'm good most of the time. Tonight, we're having spaghetti, you know. I'll cook a pot of spaghetti. But the the tired is 1, but it's like, what are you what are you doing to mitigate this and have you changed your mindset? And if you haven't, if you're kinda dabbling in losing the weight, how long is it gonna take?

It might take a long ass time. You might not ever lose it. You can't you have to, like, get into calorie deficit. Yep. Calorie deficit is hard.

So here's the thing, though. You can't starve yourself because some people do it the wrong way. They go too extreme and they fucking starve themselves, and which is fucking dangerous. It's dangerous. Yep.

It's dangerous for your heart. It's dangerous for your mind. It's dangerous for your body. Your body starts to eat itself. You know, there's a a process.

What is it called? Autosis? What is it called? I forget what the process is called, where your body starts eating its own tissue to stay alive. Yeah.

And, that's what people are doing when they're on Ozempic, unfortunately. And this this is the thing where people that are just a little overweight, they get on it, disturb the shit out of me. Right. Like, you lazy fuck. Just go to the goddamn gym.

Yeah. You lazy fuck. You're £10 overweight and you're gonna get on Ozempic. That's so crazy. Autophagy.

That's what I thought

I thought I thought you

were talking about. Yeah.

Wait. Go go back to that again. Body breaks down its own tissues to survive. It's called I I never heard that word before. Maramus?

Marasmus? Marasmus? Yeah. Or muscle atrophy. It can happen when your body is deprived of nutrients or oxygen or when cells are damaged.

So here, just so remember earlier I was saying how you can incorporate evolutionary thinking into all kinds of

Mhmm.

Areas? So there's this these great studies that were done looking at how the human mind can be tricked because of its desire for variety seeking. And then I, of course, I offer an evolution explanation for it. But let me tell you the 2 studies that I have in mind. I think because when you mentioned spaghetti, it it triggered that in my head.

So in 1 set of studies, they took I think it was m and m's. And, you know, m and m's can you could you could create a bowl with only 1 color, m and m's, or you can create a bowl with many colored m and m's. That colorant, objectively speaking, doesn't alter the taste. It doesn't alter the smell. So it is only perceptually, it affects it in that your eyes see a different color, but it doesn't alter the gustatory experience.

And it turns out that when you offer people the multicolored bowl They eat more. They eat more.

I wonder if, people that are color blind make better food choices.

You just there there's your there's your research project.

It's kinda interesting. Right?

That's kinda cool. That's

But some things that are brightly colored are really good for you, you know, like peppers.

Yeah.

Yeah. Like bell peppers, you know, like pretty bright red and they're pretty. Yeah. You know, apples Sure. Oranges.

Although there are some cases where I I wanna talk about another variety study in a second, but there are some cases where colors in nature are called this was actually my first book in 2007. I talked about aposematic coloring. Do you know what that means?

Sure. Just to warn you from Exactly.

So then you you and then I use it to explain the the hair coloring of all the walksters. I say that that's a form of aposematic hair coloring. So so check this out. So the the Amazonian frog that lives in a very dangerous neighborhood, you'd think that it would evolve camouflaging. Right.

And yet you could see it from a satellite that's so brightly yellow or red because it's saying, hey. It is Listen, bitch. If you could see me Yeah. You wanna sort of stay wide of me. Yeah.

I'm not even trying to hide. That's how dangerous I am.

Here's the beauty of nature. Another species will co opt that coloring scheme, and it will evolve it, but it's completely harmless. But people but the predator doesn't know which is which. Do you get it? Yes.

Right. Right. So I I I use that mechanism when I'm talking about deceptive signaling, and I use it in the context of deceptive branding where people Canal Street in New York City is all about you going and buying a Prada bag that should be $5,000, but, hopefully, if they faked it well, I can buy it for $50. Ah. And so so that's how I take all of these biological examples and try to apply them in economic or consumer decision making.

But let me go back to variety seeking.

I do.

So you mentioned earlier, spaghetti. So they did another study where they took the exact same pasta, and they either gave it to you in a plate of 1 shaped pasta or in a plate of multi shape. But it's the same pasta, so it it doesn't change anything. But I can give it to you, whatever it's called, fussella or Mhmm. And I guess you can guess what they're more.

They ate more when it's the multi form pasta.

Even so interesting. You know what's interesting too? You just brought up brands. Yeah. Like brands are interesting.

It's really fascinating how brands have status attached to them and people are so attached to acquiring these brands that they'll have fake ones.

Of course.

And the fake bag thing to me is the nuttiest 1 because it's just a bag. It's not a fake Ferrari. Like, if you if you buy a fake Ferrari, you're gonna notice the moment you start oh, this thing's a piece of shit.

Right.

It's not gonna handle well. It's gonna sound terrible. It won't be fast. A real Ferrari, it's like the re what you're buying, you're you're paying for the engineering of this magnificent piece of technology.

Well, most most people are buying to show off. So

They're doing that too. Yeah. But the rich people aren't stupid. Alright? The reason why Ferraris are so expensive and they sell so many of us because you buy them, you go, holy shit.

It's worth it. The reason why it developed this brand status is because they win races.

Right.

That's why. Also Lewis Hamilton drives for Ferrari. That's why they that's why they sell Ferraris, because Ferraris are the shit, you know. But also I wouldn't, you know

By the way Well,

you wouldn't recommend a long trip in 1.

Do you, do you know that the upper uppers usually, and you've met many of them, don't drive super ostentatious cars?

Because they downplay it. They get, like, a regular Porsche 911, not even the turbo.

Not even that maybe. And but do you know do you know why? Lexus. Do you know do you know why from an evolutionary because they

have to hide. They're hiding a little bit. They're camo. They're like the frog that pretends

to look like the leaf. Perhaps. But it's because when I'm nouveau riche, I just entered that thing. I want to demonstrate to everybody that I'm the real deal. Right.

And for many other people who are in my circle, they may not be able to afford the ostentatious $350,000 Ferrari.

Right.

But when I am an upper upper in the billionaire class, then me driving a $350,000 car is not a costly signal in a biological sense of my worth because every single member of my billionaire friends group could match that signal. Right. Therefore, the way I can then compete with my billionaire friends is if I can spend my money in a lavish, wasteful way such that I buy an art piece that a monkey could have come up with, and I pay a $180,000,000 of it.

Right. Right.

Right. That makes me big dog because you don't have enough money, Joe, to be able to buy what a monkey. And I paid a $180,000,000. Both of us can buy the Maserati.

Right.

And so that's where I use the principle of costly signaling from biology to explain ostentatious behaviors and consumer behavior.

God, that's the dumbest flex, isn't it? Especially the modern art flex.

I can't stand that

shit. I used to go to LACMA, the LA modern

art museum. Okay. Yeah.

And I would get angry. Yes. Like, angry. Like, I just

I've done the same thing.

Just like like just furious.

Because you're feeling that they're cheating you from the experience of seeing real art.

This is not art. There's 1 of them is literally a plexiglass box that's sitting on the ground. I'm like, you dumb motherfuckers. You dumb motherfuckers. Meanwhile, if you go on Instagram, you'll find amazing art.

There's so many artists out there. Like, legitimate incredible artists. Like, what you're doing is bullshit. Like, 1 of them was a video of people playing catch. That was their art.

Like, fuck you.

That's postmodernism, by the way. Right? Fuck you. There are no objective esthetic standards. Yeah.

So anything goes. So in the parasitic mind, I have a section where I talk about so, like, you it so you mentioned where where was it? It was in LA museum? Okay. So I had gone to visit I think it was in 1996, a couple years after my PhD.

1 of my fellow PhDs from my school had gotten a job as a professor in Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh. So I went to visit him. And so he was busy teaching or something. So I said, oh, you know, I'll go to the Carnegie Museum and hang out and see stuff. So exactly like the experience you had, there was an empty canvas.

Woah. So I went, looked for someone who was working there. I said, can I see the curator, please? Well, how can we help you, sir? I said, well, I'd like to discuss the this this art piece.

So then this other woman comes to me, says, how can I help you, sir? Super, you know, I said, well, you know, what is this bullshit? So she goes Did you say bullshit? Well, maybe not bullshit, but, like, what what is this? Can you explain this to me?

I I paid an entrance fee to see this. Right. And what do you think she said? I don't know. Well, is look.

It's it triggered a a a reaction in you. Isn't that what art art is all about? I'm like, okay.

I went to see Yoko Ono's, exhibit once.

Of course, you did.

She had an exhibit at, in Boston when I was living in Boston. And 1 of the pieces was a block of wood with a box of nails and a hammer, and she encouraged people to take a nail and knock it into the piece of wood. She encouraged people to participate. That

that yeah. That's right. They're creating the art with her. It's a collaborative process.

This was the art was nails on a piece of wood. Do you think

that when she does that, she believes it, or she knows in the deep recesses of her mind that she's a charlatan?

I would have to talk to her. I don't know.

So forget about her. Just in general, when people

The way she separated John Lennon from the Beatles, the way you know, like, everybody like, if if you're in a band and 1 of the band members has a girlfriend, the girlfriend now gets involved in the band and starts talking about, like, you know, you need to treat him better. That's Yoko Ono. Everybody calls her Yoko Ono. Like, that's like, it's standard thing that people do because they think that Yoko Ono was a wedge that drove. So a person who can do that with an intelligent guy like John Lennon like John Lennon was very smart.

Right.

Very smart guy. So a person who could, like, serve and he wanted to spend all of his time with her, that's probably a master persuader. That's probably someone who's, like, really good at playing you, really good at pulling your strings.

How about playing herself? Because remember, the best way to tell a lie is to first believe it yourself.

Did you ever see when, she appeared with John Lennon and they played on television with Chuck Berry? No. And she starts singing into the microphone and Chuck Berry freaks out? Because she sucks. She's screaming.

She just starts screaming into the microphone while they're playing. So there's like They're playing Johnny b Goode.

Oh my god.

You never saw it? No. The best version of it is Bill Burr because Bill Burr talks over it. He, like, explains what's happening, you know, in his, inimitable Bill Burr way. He's he's just getting angry watching Yoko Ono just scream like a banshee, and you see the look on on, yeah, on, their faces when they're looking at, you know, it's just it's 1 of those things where if you see it, you can't believe it's real.

You know that my a friend of mine recently told me he was actually a former student of mine who's a good friend now. He told me that that that famous sit in that they had happened in Montreal. Did you know that?

I did not know. Yeah. I did not know.

Was, like, 1969 at the I think Queen Elizabeth. Maybe Jamie will pull it off. A lot

of crazy things happen in Montreal. Yeah. Sugar Ray Leonard versus, Roberto Duran.

That is true. That's right. How well, I guess, I I would expect you to know that. Yeah. Yeah.

That was, like, 81? Eighties.

Is that Somewhere in the eighties. Right? Because he won a gold medal in the 76 Olympics, and by then That's right. He was a world champion. Yeah.

Somewhere in the eighties.

So yeah. Yeah. So do you have you you've met all these guys?

I have never really met Sugar Ray. I saw him at the UFC. I did meet Roberto Duran, though.

Okay. It was amazing. What did you think I mean, that's what I love about our conversation. It just goes anywhere. What did you think about the Mike Tyson thing that just, that with the Jack Paul and so on?

Jake Paul. I'm happy they made money. I'll leave it at that. That's what I think.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

I think it looked like sparring to me.

Yeah. It

looked like sparring. It didn't look like anybody was trying to hurt anybody, really.

Okay.

Yeah. Which is good. And, you know, whatever. You draw your own conclusions. You have no facts.

You've met you've met Tyson.

I paid for it. Yes. I love Tyson. Yeah. I met Jake Paul too.

He's a cool guy. I'm happy they made money. I've I paid for it. I don't care.

Right.

Yeah. I was hoping it was gonna be a real fight, but I was like, okay. I see what's going on.

Right.

Like, if you and I sparred, we could put on the gloves, we'd go back into the gym, and we could spar, and it would look almost like we're really fighting.

No. Because you'd punch me once and I would do it.

I would do it, like, at your speed.

Oh.

I would do it at your speed and just bring myself to your speed and just move around with you. That's that's kinda what

Can I tell you something? I would actually be interested in doing that.

Okay. We could do it. It's fun. But

I'm gonna suck so bad?

No. I won't suck. The thing about doing that with someone who's gonna be nice to you is that you can actually learn how to do it because you don't worry about getting hit. So, like, the the best sparring that I ever got ever was, when I learned to spar with people who had the same intentions as me, just getting better and not we're not trying to kill each other.

Right.

So my early days of sparring when I was a young man, I I trained at a very hard gym and we in kickboxing, we tried to kill each other. And so there's wars in the gym essentially every day. You're fighting. Whenever you sparred, you were essentially fighting. You weren't pulling punches, you were hitting each other as hard as you could.

It's a really dumb way to do it but that's how you make a tough guy. Right?

Right.

Like, that's the idea back then. Now I think people are much more concerned with, CTE, brain damage, the longevity of a fighter's career, that they would have people fight smart. And so the thing is, like, training partners, especially in jujitsu, you learn to really value your training partners because your training partners help you get better and you have to trust them. Like, if somebody gets me in a heel hook, I have to trust them that they're not just gonna rip my knee apart and they're gonna let me tap. They got me.

Give me a second. Let me tap. When I know I can't get out, let me tap. Don't rip it apart and then let go as soon as the person taps. This is like a if you don't do that in jujitsu, you won't have people to train with you and you get kicked out of schools.

And people have been kicked out of schools because they don't let go of taps. They don't they don't let go of go of submissions. So, like, you develop this understanding that you both could get hurt really easily. I trust you. I know you're gonna go hard and I'm gonna go hard, but I know that we we're gonna be safe with each other.

We're not gonna do anything to each other that we know is gonna hurt each other.

Right.

So this is what you do in kickboxing too, but you have to trust that the person is gonna do this. They're not gonna hit you hard. Like, Ubadi's gonna hit me in the body. He's gonna hit me in the body like this where we're both okay. We know he could've really hurt me, but he just touched me.

Right. So he's so he's getting his timing. He's getting his movement, and we're both moving fast, but we're both really good. So we have the ability to control. So instead of blasting through someone and punching him Right.

You punch him like that. You literally punch them like that. Well, you just You're withholding. Touching. Yeah.

A 100%. Yeah. You're you're not even going 50%.

Right.

You're just touching. You you, you know, you're going fast. You and occasionally, unfortunately, sometimes you hit someone harder than you mean to because they move into something or you both hit each other at the same time. It's occasionally, but you mitigate a whole lot of impact and and then you also develop your timing better because you're not worried about getting hit. Right.

So the best way to learn boxing is, first of all, before you do any kind of sparring, is learn technique. Technique is everything. It's everything. Mechanics are everything. Learning, getting it ingrained in your in your your body's system where you know that if you're gonna throw a punch, you're gonna lean your body into it.

You're gonna keep your hand up. When you throw a right hand, you're gonna do this. When you throw the left hook, you're gonna cover up with your right hand. You're you you could learn these things so they're ingrained in your movement patterns. And then you do them on pads and the the pad holder will, like, throw things at you so that you cover up.

Right.

And you learn distance and you learn how to pull away and counter, and you learn all these things. And then slowly, you start incorporating moving targets. You start incorporating a person and the best way to do that is not get 2 people try to kill each other because that's what we used to do. You don't learn anything. The best way to do it is have someone gently move around with you and they're like hands up hands up and you move around and like you go through a whole round where you're not even allowed to punch.

Just do defense.

And I suspect

I just want you d I just want you covering. I just want you moving good. I want head movement. I want you to be an elusive target. And when punches come at you, I want you to be able to move away.

Because I I was gonna say that when when I was a soccer player, the the type of trainings we do because you have to do a lot of sprints is very different than the type of fitness that I do now, which is usually I just get on the treadmill. And I do a bit of interval training, but I just kind of either run or fast walk uphill Mhmm. Without these kinds of anaerobic

Right.

Right. And so I'm kind of looking at although I'm I just turned 60, by the way, in October. Congratulations. Thank you. So I'm looking to do something that raises my heart level in a way that is akin to what I suppose would happen if you got into a ring, how your heart rate

Mhmm.

Would kind of go up in ways that I'm probably not testing my heart currently because I just get on the treadmill and I just jog.

Yeah. I mean, there's a whole bunch of workouts you could just do online. You could find online on YouTube. There's hundreds of different people that put out free workouts and, you know, you could do them with 2 10 pound dumbbells.

Yeah. That's true.

And, you know, they'll take you through all this different stuff like pistol squats, do this, do that, you know, overhead press, do this, do that, and then they'll work you through the reps. Right. And you all you have to do is follow along.

Have you ever seen the training regimen of Alvin Kamara? No. Who's that? Alvin Kamara is, I mean, recently, he's kind of had a couple of off years, but he he's sort of the feature back running back of the, New Orleans Saints. He's an all purpose back, meaning that he both runs, but he also catches the ball a lot.

Right? So he's really he does he's a generalist. He's a polymath. And I've always loved the way he moves. He moves very, very elegant, like, almost like a so he's both power, but also if you remember how Barry Sanders was in the late nineties, do you remember who that was?

He was

in Detroit Lions running back. And so I thought, this guy runs unique in a unique way that's different from all the other players, and I I oh, I know who I was. I had Dean Cain on my show. Do you know who Dean Cain is?

Sure. Superman.

Superman and who used to be a football player.

Right.

And so we were discussing our favorite football players, and I was telling him, oh, this is about 3, 4 years ago. I said, oh, my favorite player is Alvin Kamara. So then he tells me, go on YouTube and watch the types of trainings he does to, develop those movements. And as as a big fitness guy, just go watch it.

There's a lot of plyometrics? A lot

of plyometrics. A lot of stuff where, you know, they they throw a ball and he and he he's standing on a bounce on a, balancing ball. What is that called? The platform?

Mhmm.

And he's trying to catch balls that he that they're throw I mean, I would have a hard time just staying on that damn thing. There you go.

Oh, yeah. That's crazy.

It what that's exactly his trainer. You have to see what this guy makes him do. It's unbelievable. He's like a ballerina.

Well, that makes sense that that he would be so agile and mobile because he's doing his surgery.

Look at his body.

You can't just, like, do squats. You know, if you wanna be an amazing athlete, you have to do a bunch of different things. Oh, this is cool. Oh, a lot of explosions left in my mind.

Amazing. But look at this.

Wow. That's crazy. Hopping back and forth on ball to ball with balance on 1 leg.

Isn't that unbelievable?

Yeah. It is.

Oh, I'm so glad you brought. Thank you, Jeremy.

It does make sense though that you, you know, you need to develop all this stuff if you wanna look at that. He's got

That that's it. Look at this stuff.

Look at this stuff. Crazy.

He's gotta stick with the right ball standing on 1 foot.

I bet he has insane balance.

Look look at those legs.

That balance is insane. That thing is so hard to stand on anyway. Yeah. Especially with 1 leg.

I'm so I'm it's exciting that I shared something with you who's like this huge fitness expert that you didn't know. Cool.

Yeah. I've seen people do similar types of workouts, but that's very impressive. Yeah. Yeah. That that kind of I mean, it just makes sense that if you wanna separate yourself from everybody else, like, what do you need to do to separate yourself?

Like, elite balance. Elite there's this guy, Arman Sarukian, who was supposed to be fighting, Islam Makhachev for the world lightweight UFC title, but he hurt his back, literally like the day before the the weigh ins. It's probably because of the severe weight cut. They cut he cuts a lot of weight. He's very muscular.

But 1 of the things that this guy does that's really extraordinary, they put out his workout. He does these incredible mobility exercises. Like, he's insanely flexible. He's like jacked, like super muscular, but like ridiculously mobile and pliable. Wow.

And he's doing see if he can find his, workout routine. He does all these, crazy exercises where they're, like, twisting him in weird positions, and it's very unusual for a guy that's that strong to to be that agile and mobile.

Are are you do you have a lot of flexibility?

Yeah. But that's just because I started when I was a really young kid. I started in martial arts and I was stretching from the time I was developing.

I genuinely believe that my muscles are made of glass.

No. That's all horseshit. See if you can find this is yeah. This he does a lot of this stuff. Like, look at these twisting motions.

He does a lot of, like, weird mobility stuff, like hip mobility. Like, look at all this. Wow. It's all very so he's pulling on a cable machine and, like, look how flexible he is.

Wow.

It's nuts. And this is, like, a a core part of his training that is very different than a lot of other people's training. Like, look

Oh my goodness.

His ability to stand on his head like that and move his whole body around in a circle. What the hell? Incredibly agile. So this

is not something that every person No.

That's this is super unusual. I mean, there's some wrestlers that do this kind of stuff is pretty common. I do these, but he's, like, got a it's a core part of his training is his physicality. His physicality is very this is him with Khamzat Chimaev, who's 1 of the top middleweight contenders, 1 of the absolute best fighters in the world, and, you know, he's giving him a run for it. Wow.

They're really good. I mean, watching him roll like Khamzat rolls through everybody, and he's having a hard time controlling this guy. And this guy fights 2 weight classes below him. That's how good he is.

The the blue guy is smaller guy.

The blue guy is much smaller.

Yeah. Okay.

So Khamzat is, he's a 185 pound guy. And at 1 point, he fought at 170, but he was cutting a shitload of weight. But even at 185, he's next in line for the title. And this kid just keeps fighting at 155. Right.

So he's quite a bit smaller and still giving him, you know, it's he's not allowing Khamzat to run him over, which is very impressive.

Wow. So what what what's the trajectory of MMA next? Is it all turn it into an Olympic sport? What what are

they I hope so. I hope the MMA becomes an Olympic sport. It should

Is that on the on the agenda?

I don't I mean, I know they've pushed for it.

Okay.

It should be. You know, I know there's combat sports obviously in the Olympics, boxing and judo in particular, in Taekwondo now as well.

And you've got the Australian breakdancer too.

That 1 was amazing. Do you think that was

a troll of Israel?

I think that was hubris. I think that was a person who didn't think they're gonna get scrutinized

Yeah.

Who, used their position of influence to acquire A

PhD in this stuff she has.

Uh-huh. Yeah. But also, there's, like, legit breakdancers in Australia. If you well, Google Australian breakdancers. There's people that are legit.

I love breakdancing. I love watching it.

Yeah.

It's so impressive.

Like the locking and all that stuff?

No. The physical moves. All the the when they do a flip and land on 1 leg and then flip back the other way. There's a couple of guys, Richie and Gio, Martinez, that are black belts under 10th Planet Jiu Jitsu, and they started out their career as break dancing. And they were so hard to hold on to, and they were so mobile and so agile that Eddie started incorporating, like, break dancing into his training, like learning break dance techniques.

Because it's just basically kind of gymnastics.

Right.

You know? And a lot of these guys, they can stand on 1 arm and spin around in a circle with their feet in like a lotus position. Like, it's But in there, like,

Brazilian self defense or an Israeli self defense. Capoeira? Yeah. Capoeira. It's

Capoeira. But Capoeira was like a dance that the slaves had created that they were disguising a martial art in a dance allegedly. I'm not Okay. I'm not an expert in capoeira, but a lot of the capoeira moves, they they dance, but they're dancing into wheel kicks. They're dancing into, like, tornado kicks, like, it's these are weapons.

Right. Like, they're techniques, but you could pretend that it's just a dance. Right. But it's kind of

Oh, that's so the origin is a slavery thing.

I might be wrong about that. I don't think I am. I think that's 1 of the things that they did was they hid it.

They hid their martial art and dance. What are these left left turns we take through our connections of conversation? I recently had a guest on my show, who's an expert on Frederick Douglass. Do you know who that is? Sure.

Regrettably, not enough Americans, not not enough of anybody knows who he is. And, of course, he was in the era of, you know, when slavery was being abolished. And I have you ever seen his face? Yes. Doesn't he look as though he's like a newbie and king the way how regal he looks?

See a photo of Frederick Douglass. And I told that to the scholar, and he goes, you're exactly right. Look at that. Look at that.

Imagine that guy teaching classes.

Oh, my god. I'm getting warm and I'm a heterosexual male.

And that and I also imagine to be an intellectual and a black man in that day and age.

He didn't know how to read and learned it later. And if you read his stuff, it's unbelievable. Like, the the eloquence that he had it's it's not as though he learned how to read the way an a typical child learns at 3, 4, 5. He that that happened later in his life, and then you see the production of quality. It's unbelievable.

So I really recommend everybody, certainly, Americans as part of your history, read about Frederick Douglass. He's unbelievable.

How old was he when when he learned how to read?

So I don't wanna misspeak. I'm not sure, but let's go probably, Jamie can pull it off, but probably 12, 13.

Connection literacy and freedom, not allowed to 10

Oh, he taught himself

to read and write in the streets of Baltimore. At 12, he bought a

There you go. So that's exactly what I said. So when he's off 13.

Do you know who Rick Ross is? No. Not the rapper, but Freeway Ricky Ross.

No. I don't think so.

Rick Ross was a cocaine dealer in the 19 eighties that didn't know at the time, but he was a part of the whole Oliver North thing where they were selling cocaine in the LA streets, and they were using the money to

fund the conches. The Colonel. Uh-huh. Okay.

The, you know, the the the United States so this is, like, pretty established. They sold cocaine in the LA ghettos to fund the conches versus the Sandinistas in Nicaragua. Right. And this guy was the guy who is funneling all the cocaine through. He was making 1,000,000 of dollars, couldn't read, goes to jail, goes to jail for selling cocaine for the government for the government.

In jail, learns how to read and then becomes a lawyer and then retries his own case and gets out because they they tried him on the 3 strikes rule. This is how they convicted him on 3 strikes, but it's 3 strikes from 1 incident. It's supposed to be 3 strikes.

Separate things.

Exactly.

Yeah. Okay.

And so he got out. So he's out now. Wow. Yeah. So he's been on my podcast a few times.

He's

oh, so I'll check it out.

So Brilliant guy.

He so he learned how to do what in jail.

In jail.

Yeah. Amazing. Could not read. Amazing. Yeah.

So 1 of the biggest stressors I face when I travel, speaking about reading, is I've got a very, very big personal library of books, many of which I've yet to read. And I wake up every day worried that am I am I gonna run out of time in life and not read these books. So whenever I travel and I'm gonna bring a book to read on that trip, I sit there. The guy who studies psychology of decision making, I have complete decision paralysis because I will usually my wife will tell me, you're leaving in 24 hours. Why don't you now go and anguish get in anguish for the next 6 hours as, you know, my hair

is And pick a book.

Yeah. So I'm like, oh, this 1. No. This 1. And I'm literally sitting there.

Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.

You you I think you listen to books. You don't read them. Right?

I do read occasionally, but but, like, 90% of them I listen to.

Yeah. I I I need that tactile thing. I can't do

the listening. Tactile thing is great, but for me, it's a time thing.

Okay.

I can get listening in when I'm in my car and when I'm in the sauna. So those are so I don't

And you feel you you pretty much retain as much or or not as as well? It's hard to

say because it's kind of the only way I'm accessing information these days, but I retain a lot of it.

Okay.

It depends on what it it it it always depends on whether or not I'm excited about the information.

Mhmm.

Always. If I'm very excited about it, I retain most of it. If I'm just, like, forcing myself to pay attention and then my mind drifts off into something else then comes back and, like, that's a a little bit of a problem. Like, if things become like, lately, I have been, listening to a lot of UFO stuff. Okay.

A lot of UFO abduction stories, a lot of UFO I've I'm going going through Jacques Vallee's stuff because he's coming on the podcast again. And so I've been going through all of his books. He's got several books, and he's got a very nuanced perspective on this whole UFO thing that is, I didn't know and I wish I knew the first time I had him on. Because the first time I had him on, I knew that he was the guy who was, ins he inspired the French scientist in the Steven Spielberg movie, Close Encounters of the Third Kind.

Okay.

Did you see that movie?

I did see it.

Do you remember the French scientist?

This is 1977. Right? Yeah.

So there's a French scientist in that film that is, coordinating all these, people that are trying to contact this UFO, and they're they're working this out, like, how to do it. It's based on Jacques Vallee. And Jacques Vallee has been involved in the research of these experiences that people had had or allegedly had with being abducted, with sightings, with crash sites, and all these different things. He's been involved with it for a long time.

Where are you on the 0, I absolutely don't believe any of this, 100, I fully believe in this. What's your score?

I the more time goes on, the more I think it's way weirder than we think. I I don't dismiss the idea that something from another planet can come here and visit us. I have a feeling it's weirder. I have a feeling there may be that and then also other things. I have a feeling it's way more complicated.

I have a feeling it's like life. Like, if you told me that if you go to Earth, you can find life. Okay. Well, what kind of life are you talking about? You're talking about, like, fish?

Are you talking about raptors? Are you talking about dogs? Like, what kind of life? There's so much life. There's so much different life.

I have a feeling that alien contact, intelligent beings from somewhere other than here is like that. I think it's probably more complex than we can imagine, and probably there's an interdimensional aspect to it. There's probably a nonphysical aspect to it that seems physical too. There's probably an area of this phenomenon that plays on human consciousness and dreams and our interactions with the unknown, because I think there's more to life than we can perceive. I think there's more to the existence, this this this conscious existence in this moment in the universe.

There's more to it than we're picking up on. I think we have limited senses, and I think that this is what things like the telepathy tapes and all these different people that are studying paranormal phenomenon. I think that's what this stuff is all about. I think it's part of an emerging aspect of human consciousness that we're developing stronger and stronger senses in regards to things that aren't they're not something that you could just put on a scale. They're not something that you could take a ruler to.

They're not something that you can quantify, but they probably exist. And if you've I don't know if you've listened to the telepathy tapes.

I haven't, but I just started watching, I think, 3 days ago, a Netflix series. So you'll know this, but because I don't know what it's called. It's supposedly a New York case in the late 19 eighties. That's the most famous UFO abduction case. Is this ringing a bell?

I don't know about the 1980. The most famous case is like Betty and Barney Hill, and they were in the 19 fifties. Oh. That's and then the other 1 is Travis Walton. He's this guy right here.

Oh. They made a movie out of it called Fire in the Sky.

But maybe I don't know if Jamie can pull it. It's a it's a Netflix series that just it's a documentary series that just start that I think came out this year or this past year. There is kind of a guy I don't think he's a professor or something, but he's a guy who's, like, the investigator who who collates. What's it called? That's the

1. Alien abduction.

That's the 1. Thank you. Thank you, Jamie. Mhmm.

This is Is that

oh, you don't know this 1?

No. I'm not aware of all.

They sold it as the most famous, most, you know, documented case of UFO abductions. It might be. Okay.

I mean, I don't know what to think of those things. I've read John Mack's book. John Mack was a psychiatrist at Harvard and he or a psychologist. I forgot which 1. Okay.

He, wrote a book called Abduction that was all about hypnotic regression therapy that he did with all these different people that had these abduction experiences.

Mhmm.

And they're all really similar, like, eerily similar.

And there's no way that they could have

to do that? They weren't communicating with each other. They didn't know about it. They were there's they were ashamed of these stories. They didn't wanna tell other people.

They were telling them to their shrink, but they weren't telling to other people. It's a it's a weird thing, man. I and but here's the thing. They all come back. Like, no 1 gets abducted and gets kidnapped.

Like, what's going on? Are you really leaving or is this in your mind? In your mind, did you leave? Like, what happened to your body? Were you if I had a camera in your room, were you in that bed the whole time?

Is this experience all happening inside your mind? And is it still real? Like, just because some things I I think there's dimensions that we don't have access to that exist around us. And these guys that pretend to understand quantum theory and all that stuff, when they start talking to you about it, talking about multiple dimensions, it leaves room for the possibility of these things.

I actually had so I've had a lot of amazing guests on my show, you know, top professors of all kinds. Arguably, the best conversation I've had, which is saying a lot with a guest on my show, is 1 of the pioneers of quantum computing. Mhmm. And and not to serve as his publicist, but I think, you know, he'd be a great guy for you to have.

I'd love to talk to him. What's his name?

His name is David Deutsch. He's a physicist by, training. He wrote 2, best selling books. I think 1 of them is called the Edge of Infinity. And we try to discuss, you know, what is what is quantum physics?

What what is how do you apply that principle to quantum computing? And, remember earlier I said that there are too many professors who are not intellectuals. Yes. Well, he's exactly an intellectual. Mhmm.

Because we could sit down and have a conversation where at the end of it, you were so hedonistically, you know, tickled in your brain that it's as if you just had sex, but would

Right. You get excited.

You get excited. And so we had 2 conversations. I'd urge you to listen to our conversations. It it was not too long ago, maybe 3, 4 months ago. Amazing guy.

Okay. Very nice. Try to have him on.

Yeah. That'd be great.

I'm fascinated by quantum computing. Marc Andreessen was explaining

Oh, yeah.

The ex the experiments that they've done where they did a calculation that if you turn the entire universe into a computer, every molecule, every atom of the universe was a computer. It would take so much time to solve this equation that the universe would die of heat death first.

But you do it in quantum computing and does it in 4 seconds?

Yeah. Quickly.

Is that amazing?

Couple minutes.

Is that amazing?

Yeah. It's bananas. Like, what is happening? And he said it's proof of the multiverse because somehow or another, this computer is contacting other quantum computers in an infinite number of universes using all the computing power and solving it instantaneously.

Forgive me for being eager to jump, on what you're saying. I think if I'm not mistaken, David Deutsch is 1 of the pioneers of the multiverse theory.

Well, it it kind of is the only theory, at least as has been explained to me.

That could work Yeah. With quantum computing. Exactly.

I was like, what? They don't know what's happening. Yeah. Yeah. It's like these guys are making magic.

Do do you do you remember the famous quote? Do you know who Richard Feynman is?

Yes.

Yeah. So there's a quote. I I might get it off. The quantum compute yeah. Yeah.

Where he says, if you think you understand quantum physics, you don't understand quantum physics. Yeah. And that's pretty much how I feel when I try to understand. I'm like, what is this shit? I don't understand any of this.

It's so bizarre. Yeah. Just what's measurable about it is so bizarre. Like, articles in superposition, so they're they're moving and they're still at the same time. What?

They're quantumly entangled Yeah. Photons? What are you talking what?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

What does this even mean? Like, what where is this stuff?

Like,

what is this?

I I first was exposed because you were just saying about the computational power that would be required that you could reduce for quantum computing. When I was first exposed to AI, so I you know, my my undergrad was in mathematics computer science. And so I had taken an AI course before AI was the the shit. Right? This was 1985.

And the professor who taught me was his name is I can't believe I remember his name. Monty Newborn. He was part of the deep blue team that was developed.

Do you

remember that stuff? Sure.

So That's the computer that beat Gary Kasparov at chess.

Exactly. Exactly. And so, actually, for for 1 of our assignments in that course, we had to develop in a on a game. That it didn't have to be chess, but it could be some other game. What what's called alpha beta pruning, which is if you blow out the decision tree of a typical game, let's say, like, chess, you would need 10 to the 100 nodes, if I'm not mistaken, which is more nodes than there are particles in the universe.

I think in the universe, there's 10 to the 80. So there are more nodes in a chess game than there are particles or atoms in the universe. So it would take you so what alpha beta pruning does so right. You're pruning. So what it's basically doing is it starts testing going down the tree.

And if it seems like no good outcome can come here, you you prune that tree. So what you're doing is you're reducing the computational complexity of the tree so that you can arrive to a final solution much quicker.

And

so that was the original time that I was exposed to AI. And I and at the time, I thought, wow. AI is gonna take over the world. And then AI went through a winter where it kinda died out, and it's only in the last 3, 4, 5 years that really it has exploded. But I wanna tell you a few, assignments that I had back then, and I would challenge someone to solve them on your show and post the answers.

I still remember them.

Okay.

I was an a plus student. So here's 1. If you take a string of ones and zeros, right, any string, so it could be 1110001010, or it could be 1,000,000 long. It could be set. Okay.

You and I will play a game. We start. I let's say I start. I have to either take out the end digit from this side or the end digit from that side. Then when it's your turn, you take out the end digit from this side or that side.

We keep going until we get to 1 digit remaining. Whomever is left with that digit, if it's a 1, they win. If it's a 0, they lose. Do do you follow the game so far? Yes.

So what professor Newborn had asked us to do as an assignment, 1985, 40 years ago, is can you tell us this is called the deterministic game. Meaning, that there is a way to know who would win the game before we even play just by looking at some characteristic of any string. So you understand what I'm saying?

Yeah. Yeah.

So then my question to your and don't cheat and go check it on Google or even I have it on my YouTube channel somewhere. So the the thing is, what are the characteristics of any string that would allow us to deterministically know before we begin playing whether Gad or Joe will win? So that's game 1. Okay. And let's see if anybody's gonna post it on you.

I know you don't read the comments, but whatever. Right? What would

be a characteristic that you would take into consideration?

So this is not a correct 1. Okay. But it's too bad that I'm saying it because you can go down that path for 5 hours before you realize it's not correct. So I'm saving a lot of people alphabet. Is it a ratio of how many ones and zeros that any string has?

So, for example, is it if it's 2 to 1 ratio and I start, then I will win. Or is it you understand what I'm like? Good. It could so I could look at a string that's 4,000,000 digits long or 5 digits long, and I will know ahead of time. Jesus.

It's it's unbelievable. So that's I can't

even possibly guess.

Okay. I I could give you the answer or not. No. Okay. Don't give it.

Number 2

Let people simmer in it.

You know what I would love? I would love for professor Newborn, if he's still alive, to watch this show and say, my god. I must have trained the student well that he can pull this out of his butt 40 years later.

Yeah. Right? Yeah.

So, anyway, so game 2 or problem 2, and imagine now you have to go off. It's due next Tuesday, and now try to solve this damn thing. That's why I always tell people just study math and computer science. Whatever you end up becoming, it doesn't matter. You're never gonna get as good a training as being a math and computer science undergrad.

Anyways, second game, you have 12 coins. This 1 I I think is a bit easier. You have 12 coins of which 1 is counterfeit. It's counterfeit in that it's either heavier or lighter. You don't know?

Okay.

What is the minimal sequence of weighings that if I had a scale that I can place these on so that I can unequivocally identify which is the faulty the counterfeit coin and whether it's too heavy or too light.

Is this based on odds? So because if it's you have 12 coins? Yeah. So the I could say 12 because you might fuck it up until the end. Right.

No. But then I asked you for the minimum number of coins.

Well, I could you get lucky on the first 2, and the second 1 could be heavier. And then you do the third 1. The third one's lighter, and you go, okay. So it's the heavier 1.

Okay. But then that depends on what the outcome of the weighing was.

Right.

Is there what is the minimal number of sequence of weighings that will invariably converge to the right counterfeit coin irrespective of what happens in the weighing Okay. And tells me whether it's too heavy or too light. It's mind blowing shit.

Tell me what it is.

I it so I I Okay. So I I don't remember the sequence. Right. But I if I'm not mistaken, I hope I'm not wrong. I'm sure Jamie could pull it off.

I believe that there is a sequence of 3 steps that could invariably identify which coin is counterfeit and if it's too light or too heavy.

So it's not as simple as just weighing them?

There's other things. It is as simple as weighing them. Which ones? Is it you weigh is it you you take any 2 and you so if let's say I take 4 Right. And I put 22 Mhmm.

And the balance weighs, then I know that those 4 could not have been the counterfeit Right. Because it didn't tip 1 way or the other because it's the same weight.

Right.

So in that case, by taking any random 4, putting them on, I've only eliminated those 4.

Right. But you could do that 3 times. You have 12.

Just try it.

Yeah. But if you do that 3 times, you'd be able to figure it out

really quickly. If so if now you got rid of those 4 Right. So I don't remember what the sequence is, so we could try to work it out now, but I don't think it's as simple as just us doing it. It. If I take another 4

Mhmm.

And I put them out and that comes out as even, I get rid of those 4. Mhmm. I've now done 2 weighings. Now I still have 4.

Right.

If I take 22, now if it does do 1 or the other, I'll I won't know which 1 it is yet, and I won't know if it's too light or too heavy. Correct? Right. So that means your strategy of I just take 4, 3 times will not converge me to the optimal solution of 3.

Oh, so you have to do it in 3 steps.

You have to do it in 3 steps. But by the way, he doesn't tell you in at the assignment what is the number of

steps. You just do 6 and 6 then? If you No. Because then you wouldn't have anything to base it on.

No. If you get 6 and 6, you you you're sure you're gonna get a this unbalanced

Right. And

you don't know anything. Right.

You don't know what's going on.

That weighing gave you nothing. It just confirmed that there's a counterfactual

Right.

I mean, a counterfeit 1.

So you do 44. If you got lucky, you could catch it on the second 1. No. But you wouldn't know then because you wouldn't know it was it was heavier than life.

What you just said, that means it's dependent on the outcome of that singular time that you did it. You need 3. What I'm saying is irrespective of what you do, here is the strategy that will always get you What do you do? So I don't remember what the

That damn, are you gonna leave me in suspense?

No. But I didn't tell you the other 1. I didn't tell you the the digit 1. Right.

Well, the digit 1, I don't want you to tell people.

It'll blow your I could give a singular hint Okay. That would almost make everybody get it, but I don't wanna give it because Oh. No. I'll tell you why. Because it is almost a mystical process.

I mean, we're saying that we're all, you know Just give up. Just tell

us what it is. You want me to? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So before I do so, let me give you the hint to see if you'll get it. Okay. And you don't think I'm putting on the spot?

No. Okay. What does this is so cool. What does any string, whether it's a 1000000 strings or 20 strings, always have, architecturally speaking? Do you understand what I'm asking?

Yes. A number? A finite number?

No. It always has a it starts with m.

Jamie?

What are you saying? It has a middle.

A middle. Okay. If you have a

do you see where I'm going with this?

Okay.

So meaning, if both you and I know the deterministic rule Right. It doesn't matter how big the string is.

Right.

If I look at the middle of the string, I mean, I'm getting goosebumps saying it.

Okay.

If you look at the middle of this like, look. If this if the middle is 111, just bear with me.

Okay.

If the middle is 111, this the string is an odd number. Okay. Because whether it's odd number or even Right. It does matter.

Got it.

If it's an odd number and I start and the middle is 111, I know that I'm going to win.

Why? Has to be a 1. Because 1 or 0.

Yeah. Well no. Because if if the middle is 111 Right. So when we're left with 111, I take a 1 from this side. Mhmm.

You take any other 1, and I'll be left with 1, and I win. Therefore, if we both know the deterministic rule of the game, I will always make sure. So when you take out from this side, I will counterbalance by taking out from this side. And then you take out from this side, I'll counterbalance with this side to make sure that we converge to the middle 111, which I know because it's an odd string, and I started the game. I'm always gonna get to it.

Got it. Do you get it? Yeah. And so the entire algorithm is based on, is the string odd or even? That will determine if it's the middle 3 or middle 4.

Mhmm.

And do I start, or do you start? Mhmm. Knowing that information, the string could be 73,000,000,000 digits long, or it could be 6 digits long. It's a deterministic game. I know who will win.

As long as we both know that rule. If we both don't if I know it and you don't, then there's asymmetry, then I could always make sure to win by but if we both know it, we don't have to play the game. I just look at the middle and I go, you're starting or you win. We don't need to play. Isn't that cool?

It is cool. But I wish

we hadn't done it because I would have loved to see people's attempts because you learned from how people are thinking. How

do you understand this quantum computing, this multiverse explanation?

All I mean, not I I don't wanna say nothing, but certainly not enough to offer any insights in this conversation.

It seems so strange, and there's no real applications for it yet, which is even stranger. Is that they have this computing power, but they're not using it to do things.

Well, he but here's where it does. So I guess maybe I was being too humble in when I said I don't I don't know anything about it. When so here's a mind blowing thing.

Mhmm.

So you know what prime numbers are?

Yes.

Okay. It's an incredibly easy property to define. We know how the number line operates, yet you know that 1 of the open problems in pure mathematics pure mathematics is basically number theory. It's the purest, most theoretical form of math, which is saying a lot. Pure mathematicians don't don't have a formula that allows them to generate what is the next prime.

Right? So usually, right now, what you do is you have these incredible supercomputers, and through brute force, someone comes out with, we now found the largest prime number ever, but it was done through algorithmic brutish force. So I can see how a quantum computing approach will allow us to, through brute force, calculate much further prime numbers Right. That today we don't have the computational power to do. So I don't know what the application would be, but that would be an example of using the the raw computational power of quantum computing to solve these problems.

What I was getting at was we don't have an application for it where it's being used and it's eventually going to be. What I was getting at is that we're looking at this astounding computational ability that's baffling and what happens when that gets applied to something? This is what my point was. Like, my my point is always what happens when that gets applied to sentient AI, when it gets applied to some large language model that's, untethered. That's that's where it's really crazy because the the computing power like, the 1 of the big problems with artificial intelligence is the incredible need for power.

Right? This is why these, like, Google's doing this AI thing where they wanna develop 3 nuclear power plants to power their AI.

Yeah. Crazy.

Like, this is nuts. So, like, what what happens when this insane thing that we have developed called artificial intelligence meets this other insane thing that we have developed called quantum computing?

So I I don't know about that, but what what I can say is that any type of problem that requires massive computational power because of the burdensome search you can use that for. Right. Right? So imagine although I don't think you need quantum computing for this, but say in medical diagnostics where you use an AI system, Why isn't it that we don't why do we even go to a physician and provide him or her with our symptoms when it should be so trivially easy to put that into an AI medical diagnostic system, and it can look up rare cases in 18/27 in Zambia that exactly map onto exactly the symptoms, the unique symptoms that I'm facing because I went on a safari in Zambia. No physician, even if he's trained in infectious diseases, has probably seen that case from 18/27, Zambia.

So I would expect that in problems that require huge computational power to search through huge engines was where quantum but I don't know anything else.

Yeah. Well, it's it's gonna have applications is the point. And it's it's it's right now, it's this insane technology that is so above and beyond anything that's even imaginable. If you just said that to someone 20 years ago, you're you're gonna have a computer that if you took the whole universe and turned it into a computer, it would die of heat death before this thing could figure it out, and this thing could do it in a couple of minutes.

It's unbelievable.

You would go, this what what are you even saying? Yeah. You go, what does the world look like when this thing becomes real? The world looks like we're in some sort of Terminator movie. We're we're in some sort of space movie, Star Trek type deal.

Like, it's not gonna be like a normal world, but it is a normal world, and this technology exists.

My wife just before I came on the show, she called me up and she goes, oh, did you did you see this deep AI stuff with the Chinese? I said, sweetie, I'm about to head off to speak to Joe. Why are you having a deep conversation with me now? She goes, oh, because maybe Joe's gonna bring up something about AI, and you might wanna know about deep AI. So anyway so let me give her a clue.

Do do you know anything about this?

I do.

What what what's going on?

There's a lot going on, and what's what's bizarre is that China is dumping insane amounts of money. I think I think the the estimation in the American dollar is a quarter of a $1,000,000,000,000, into their AI program. Their their AI program is, also allegedly involves a little bit of espionage. So it involves a little bit of stealing some of the data from OpenAI and some of these other places. And, 1 of the things that does happen, of course, with these sort of enormous technology breakthroughs is that you're gonna have, certain foreign governments that are trying to infiltrate these research centers.

Yeah.

They're trying to get access to this information, and the speculation is that they have done that and that they are more advanced because of it than we are even aware of and that they're dumping untold amounts of resources sort of unchecked. The response to this is probably what, the government just recently announced, what the Trump administration Oh,

the 500,000,000,000 thing.

Right. Yeah. This is probably in response to that. Okay. That there there's an AI arms race that's going on

right now.

And whoever gets to the front of the line first is gonna be in an insane position of power.

And In a sense, it's similar to the space race, but this 1 is probably more consequential.

Probably more consequential because, essentially, when you're dealing with quantum computing and AI and you put the 2 of those together, which they haven't done yet, but once they do, what are what is that? That sounds like a god. Yeah. It does. It sounds like something that can do things that doesn't even make sense.

It's gonna have the kind of understanding of the universe that we would only dream of right now.

Right.

And it's probably a week away. So a month away or a year away or whatever it is.

So in a in a It's gonna happen quick. In a in a much less sort of grand context. Yesterday, I had, this morning, I was telling you I was having, breakfast with a colleague from UT Austin. I actually also met him yesterday. He came over to the hotel.

We went out. He has a Tesla. And he said that over the past month or so, I don't remember the exact time, the AI abilities of the self driving part of his Tesla. He's noticed a huge improvement, like a really discreet jump. And so we were driving.

We were going to a coffee shop, and he wasn't he wasn't looking at the road, and he wasn't using his hands, and the car was driving.

Oh, yeah. I have 1.

But okay. So for you, it doesn't seem perceptually and I was

looking No. It's bananas. When you do, it's bananas. The auto driving feature is nuts. It stops at red lights.

It turns left and right. It changes lanes.

The whole thing.

Oh, yeah.

And so this was the first time I I was fully immersed in a self driving car. And I was telling him, hey, Richard, are you are you are you sure that this is okay? He's like, oh, yeah. No. It's fine.

I my my children come in, and it was like mind blowing experience.

It's mind blowing. Yeah. Yeah. And what is that compared to what it's going to be?

Yeah. Exactly.

There was, I bought my first 1, I guess, 7 years ago, something like that. And, I made a video of me driving on Sunset Boulevard without my hands.

How's that?

I had my hands over the steering wheel. I led Zeppelin's plan. I was like, this is so crazy. It was driving down the street.

And have you how much have you noticed? It's much better? Okay.

Oh, you're much much much much much much.

500% better? It's way better.

Yeah. It's like like I said, now

What specifically? It it makes better decisions.

It's Now it changes lanes to avoid obstructions. It it it puts its blinker on. It makes turns. It stops at red lights and stop signs. It just does everything.

It drives like a person. I mean, it still feels weird. I don't like to let it drive. I like to drive.

Okay.

I like driving. Right. I like I like it's fun. It's fun. It and that's a fun car to drive because it's so preposterous.

It's like it moves like like a time machine.

Yeah. It

just it just goes places. It doesn't make any noise. It's real weird. So I like driving, but the auto driving feature that exists now is just the beginning. It's gonna it's gonna get to the point where it's gonna be stupid to let people drive.

You know, it's funny because, linking it back to my area of research in psychology decision making, there was a psychologist who has now passed away, a very famous psychologist named Paul Mehl, m e e h l, who in the 19 fifties was already doing studies looking at what's called actuarial versus clinical judgments. What does that mean? Let's suppose I were to tell you that when it comes to making decisions for your admissions to university, using an actuarial model, meaning putting in all of your admissions data and allowing a model to decide yes or no, is a much better, mechanism than to allow humans to make that choice because humans can be hungry at 11:45, and they're pissed off because their blood sugar is low. And if they're depending on whether their blood sugar is low or not, they may make a different decision on the exact same file. So that he tried to argue that actuarial decisions for certain structured decisions will end up having much better, fairer outcomes for university applicants, and people were still reticent to allow the machine to make decisions.

They wanted to be in the hands of humans. And so I think when the reason why I thought of this example is because when you said, I don't like the the machine to be driving, I wanna be in control. What that to me suggests is that no matter how much actuarial evidence you might provide to people telling them, on average, you're much less likely to get into an accident if the self driving car drives. Most people are going to have the bias of saying, no. I can't relinquish control.

Do do you agree with that?

Yeah. I think there's that's definitely a factor. Also, you wonder if the car is paying attention to things that you can see but it can't see. Right? So what I like to look at when I'm driving 1 of the reasons why I like driving my truck, I have a Raptor and it's it's above the rest of the traffic.

So I could see people doing stupid things way up ahead. So I could see someone slamming on their brakes, and I know all these other people are gonna have to slam on their brakes too because somebody just cut in front of that guy and stop dead. I can change lanes.

Right.

The car is not gonna know that. It's not gonna see that. It's not gonna be paying

attention. Just because it's not

high enough. Right. Well, the it's not paying attention to anything other than the car in front of it or the car to the right and to the left. It's not looking at cars, like, way down the road. I'm looking at things, like, hundreds of yards ahead

of me. But couldn't a couple of code lines fix what you just said? You might

not be able to see it.

Okay. It does

it's not gonna see it like I see it. It would have to have, like, sensors up where my eyeballs are.

Okay.

Right? And, especially, like, I'll move to the left lane a little bit to see what's going on over there, and I'll move back. You know, I'll move slightly to the left so that I could see past this line. When you're taking into account other people's stupidity, the thing is once we get to a point where automated cars are ubiquitous, then the argument for self driving or driving yourself rather is gonna be kind of shitty because it's gonna be so much better than driving.

Right.

Like, you're it's so much safer if you're not gonna worry about ever being distracted by your phone. You're not gonna ever worry about, you know, dropping your drink in your lap and changing lanes and colliding with someone. You're not gonna think about all those things because the car is gonna be doing everything. And as good as it is now, it's way better than it used to and it's gonna be way better in a few years from now.

Right.

It's like I do love driving though. I love the pleasure of driving a car. It's not that I wanna be in control and I'm more I enjoy it. It's like a ride. When I was a little kid, I remember thinking, boy, 1 day I wanna be able to drive a car.

That's like going to Disneyland every day. Because Disneyland, you know, you're on a ride, like, you know, there's some of these little race car rides in Disneyland. They're silly in compared to a car. So you're you're on a ride.

Well, I remember, in 1983, I had gone to help my brother move. He had he had moved to Toronto for a year, and then he ended up moving to Southern California. And I was going with him to help him move, and he took a U Haul truck, and I took his then I think it was called an RX 7 Mazda. 1 of those do you remember those? Oh, yeah.

Okay. And it had the cruise control on it Uh-huh. Which was the earliest manifestation. So I did it a bit on the highway because we have to drive from Montreal

to Toronto. Yeah.

You just lay back. But I didn't I I wanted to be in control of I didn't like being constrained by it's on a 110 kilometers. Right.

I

wanna be able to adjust. Right. And so I played with it for about 50 kilometers, and then I turned it off, and I never use it again.

Well, now they have ones that judge the speed based on the distance between the car in front of you, and you can change it. So it's like radar, laser. I think it uses laser. So the laser determines how far ahead of you the car is and slows down so that you have an appropriate amount of stopping distance.

Right.

They're they're pretty incredible now.

Do you do you do you foresee have you heard of those, kind of, flying taxis that there's is is this kind of, Jefferson stuff or is

it real? Think once we get really good at automating cars, why wouldn't you have automated flying vehicles? The real concern with flying vehicles is people getting in accidents in the sky and falling on the people's houses, which would happen. I mean, think about how street takeovers where people drive like assholes in the street. Imagine that happening in the sky.

You're walking your dog and you're dead.

Yeah. You're walking your dog and boom, a car falls on you. That could happen.

So is that an intractable problem that ends the project right there

or No. So automation. Automation changes all that. So with automation, you have, a 3 d perspective of everything around it. Everything around it has a 3 d perspective of everything around it, and they're all moving in sync.

So they all share information that you're gonna know where 1 is at every time, but you're not gonna be in control. You're not you can't just dive bomb onto your ex girlfriend's house. Right. You know? Fuck you, bitch.

You wanna die, dude? Yeah. You you know, it's like, to worry about humans is human error or, you know Yeah. Doing it on purpose with which is an error.

But, you know, as someone who used to code in my computer science days, sometimes you forget the semicolon and the syntax of the programming language.

You do, but it's gonna be coded by AI. It won't be coded by people.

That's true.

There's already like, people that are coding right now will tell you, don't go to school for coding because it's it's a great thing to learn.

So learn to code is now obsolete.

Yeah. Ain't that funny? Like, learn to code. Is what was the learn to code thing would get you in trouble when peep because someone had said it in regards to people losing menial jobs.

It was, like, I think in the coal industry. Not. Yeah.

You don't have to learn to code, which is such a crazy thing to say.

Yeah.

But it became a thing where it'd get you kicked off of Twitter. That's how suppressive people don't understand how suppressive Twitter was. You get in trouble for writing learn to code. Like, you couldn't mock people by saying that ridiculous thing that someone had said about coal miners.

So can I take credit for having, reintroduced the word into the lexicon? Did you? I think you are looking at the 1 who made the use of the word retard cool again.

Let me Listen.

Let me

No. No. I'm not gonna I never

let it go. I never let it go.

Because I got held

on to retard. Twitter.

Yeah. But everybody did. Twitter retards in in quiet circles has always existed. It's like a a smoldering ember that No.

Because now there's a skit that I do whenever I see somebody posting something. There are 2 levels. I retweet it. Mhmm. And then I go, are you retarded?

Or if I'm really pissed, are you fucking retarded? And so now people are creating, like, memes, t shirts with me and are you retarded? Some people have said my next book after my current 1, suicidal empathy, will be Are you retarded? Yeah. So I feel as though give me a bit of credit.

I don't give you any credit. Okay. It's been it's been going around. It's never died in comedian circles. Okay.

We've kept it alive forever. Right. It's just too good of a word.

It really is.

And also, it doesn't have anything to do with Down syndrome. It has to do with a specific way of thinking. Yeah. And just because some peep you know, oh, you're an ableist. That's not what it's about.

Yeah.

I would never use that term if I was talking about someone who had Down syndrome. That's not how you use it. You use it when you're talking about someone who thinks the world's flat. Right.

That

was like someone asked me. Special. Yeah.

Instead of saying extremity. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. There's a time and a place for certain words. That's why they exist. You you don't eliminate words and make the world a better place.

Are there any words that you've never used? And I've got 1. Go.

No. That you've never used?

Like, I've never I mean, obviously, there's a 1,000,000 words in the lexicon that I haven't used just because I mean, words that we know that we find too objectionable to use. Can you guess what mine would be?

What is it?

It's the c word. Really? I've never used it. And I don't like You mean,

honestly, hang out in England more.

I know. That's what I was gonna say.

They throw that over like a beach ball

at a concert. You're it's mate.

And yeah. You might Australia. He's a good cunt.

Exactly. Yeah. I don't like it.

I get it. Do do you do you feel it? Do you

do you So there's

a lot of power in that word, but the the less you use it, the more power it has. It's like the old Lenny Bruce bit. Yeah. Yeah. I think that is going to be a thing of the past too.

I think technology is gonna bring us to a point where we're gonna be able to telepathically exchange ideas, and it's gonna be thought based. It's not gonna be based on language and the the, you know, the problem with language, of course, you have a objectionable words, words that are used out of context, words that you see in print, you're lacking the sarcastic tone that the person said it in. So you read it, you could reinterpret it as being a serious statement. There's a lot of weird stuff with language because what we're really trying to do is communicate.

Yeah.

It's a crude form of communication that only exists because telepathy is not good.

You feel that we're gonna 1 day be able to just our conversation will just be we're looking at each other in the eyes.

Yeah. Yeah. I think so.

What would be the material means by which that gets instantiated? How would we do that?

Well, I think initially, it'd be technology, but what I think is it's an emerging aspect of human consciousness anyway.

Right.

I think we're getting better at it. I think that, ironically, the thing that keeps us from it is technology. Because what is the the worst way to communicate with someone where you're not exactly sure what they're saying is text.

Right.

Like people misinterpret things in text messages all the time where some 1 person is joking and the other person takes them seriously or 1 person doesn't understand that this person doesn't know about something else and they wrote something.

So there is, and I may have mentioned this before on the show. I can't remember. There is something to what you're saying, not quite telepathically. But so you know brain imaging. FMRI.

FMRI. Right? Yeah. So in fMRI, I I put you through the the machine, and I'm able to look at which areas of your brain are getting more activated either through blood flow or oxygenation or whatever. Right?

Right.

So if I'm studying the psychology of fear based appeals or advertising, Well, I expect your amygdala to light up more because that's an emotional center where you expect fear to be processed. Right?

Got

it. So there is some researchers, I think, out of UCLA that took I I can't remember if it's like a a sentence. So let's say 8 different sentences. I'm getting the methodology wrong, but the the general idea is valid. And based on the activation pattern that they see, they're able to tell you which sentence would have been said by looking at the brain image.

Do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah. Because each of those enunciated sentences or things that I thought about will necessitate a different invoking of a particular region in my brain. Right? And therefore so I can't be to the point where I'm able to read your mind in the way that if you and I were having a telepathic conversation would happen.

But at least I'm able to know if you just thought about something fearful or you thought about a house or and so now they're already doing that.

So I think the analogy would be like, this is the first grunts that ancient man Right. Developed to to recognize particular things and to point out things before they developed a written language that was eloquent like Thomas Jefferson.

Right. And yes.

Yeah. Like as as it advances.

Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. So

I I so I've written 2 papers I mean, academic papers on, the brain imaging paradigm, and I used a term that I first learned of from my doctoral professor. I and I did 1 of my minors in my PG was cognitive studies, studies of the brain. And his name is Frank Kyle. He's now a professor at Yale University. He called it the illusion of explanatory profundity.

He was applying it to something else, but I applied it to brain imaging. Let me explain what I mean by that. There are studies that show that if you take the exact same paper and in 1 version, you actually put an image of a brain imaging thing. And then the other version of the paper, you don't do that, and you ask people to judge what it's it's the exact same paper. Right.

But you put the 1 with the image, people go, oh, this 1 is more scientific.

Right? Right. Of course.

The the packaging matters because it just showing the brain, which looks cool and sciency with all kinds of activation powder, is sciency. Right. This other paper, which is exactly the same paper, doesn't have it. It's not a sciency. So hence, illusion of explanatory profundity.

You you're thinking that you're explaining something very profound, but it really is you don't know what the hell you're talking about. So I think brain imaging so far has been very powerful as a diagnostic tool because you could see things in vivo. You could actually see certain things that before you had to do an invasive surgery to see. But to be able to fully like, now there are neuro marketing firms that tell you, that sell you based on the activation patterns of your consumers, we can help you design better marketing campaigns, bullshit.

Right. So they're over exaggerating the capabilities. Yeah. This is, this is a problem when Luddites sort of interpret what science is capable of and then try it based on

that. Exactly.

Do you know the story of, I think it was in India. There was a woman who was convicted of murder because through fMRI, functional magnetic resonance imagery, they, she had a functional met she had a functional memory of the crime somehow or another. And the problem with I talked to neuroscientists about that, and they said the problem is, like, she could've had that memory based on the evidence that was given to her when she was being tried. You would imagine that that would have a profound effect. If someone told you that you're being tried for murder and they showed you photos of the crime scene, you might develop a functional memory of this crime scene.

We're trying to think, like, who the fuck did this? Why am I being blamed? It doesn't and we don't really have the capability of it. Another 1 is there was these Italian scientists that were actually tried and convicted, because they were liable of not telling people about an earthquake that took place. Because the people that were trying them did not understand that the science involved in predicting earthquakes is not exact.

It's not it's not like I know an earthquake is gonna happen Tuesday at noon, or I know an earthquake is definitely even gonna happen.

Right.

You don't know. It just and because the fact that these people who didn't understand the science were trying them, they wanted to pretend that these people were responsible for not alerting all these and they they were try I think they tried them for manslaughter, and they were convicted, and I think they won on appeal. Wow. Yeah. Seemingly find that story.

That's interesting.

It's a crazy story because actual people who are geologists are, like, what the fuck are you doing? Yeah. 7 year legal saga ends as Italian officials cleared of manslaughter and earthquake trial. Verdict files conviction of deputy for advice given ahead of, Laquila earthquake.

Wow.

Yeah. Crazy. Incredible. Crazy. Because you have a bunch of assholes that say you should have known we're gonna take you to court.

And, like, hey, you fucking idiot. You don't even know how this technology works. And they don't have to know.

Well, even on a much more basic level, eyewitness testimony has been shown to be unbelievably unreliable.

Unbelievably unreliable. Yeah.

The pioneer of that research, I I give so many shout outs to people who become famous after hearing about, you know, on the show. Elizabeth Loftus, who's a venerable psychologist at University of California Irvine, where I was for a few years. She is the pioneer of having studied the inaccuracy of eyewitness testimony. And once you see her research, you shutter to think how many people have gone to the gas chamber Oh. You know, because someone said, of course, I I absolutely saw him.

It was him.

Oh, well, yeah. I mean, I've worked with Josh Dubin multiple times on the show to help people get out of jail.

This is Innocence Project?

He was with the Innocence Project, and now he does this thing with Ike Perlmutter, and he's very involved in helping these people that have and there's a lot of them that are in jail either through eyewitness testimony or corrupt prosecutors or, you know, evidence was withheld or, you know, there's there's a ton of those cases.

Are you a consumer of all the crime shows? No. Not not at all? No. I don't.

Why?

Because it's bad vibes.

Oh, okay. I don't

I don't need that in my life. I'm aware of it enough. I mean, I've paid attention to enough of them. I've read enough books. I've I've read enough books on serial killers.

I've I've get I get it.

You know what? I'm as a psychologist, what interests me is and you see it almost in every show. I I like I don't know if you know the show. It's called Interrogation Raw where the the whole hour series is there's a case, and now they bring in the guy, and they're actually filming interrogation that's happening.

Mhmm.

And invariably, in almost every case that I've watched, it's the same dynamic. The guy who eventually is convicted always thinks that he's smarter than these hick hillbilly cops that don't know anything.

Right.

And seeing how the cops play them, how they really are amazing psychologists themselves to know how they they're

Good cop, bad cop.

They're the whole classic. And so I love watching that interaction because the guy comes in and does his whole song and dance and

Mhmm.

He truly because he's gotten away with it for much of his life. And then, you know, I'm just aw shucks, a stupid country boy who doesn't know what I'm talking about. I'm We

talked about this the other day too that I think there's something going on as as well that people that lie all the time, they don't recognize that people can tell that they're lying. Yeah. Because they're not good at reading lying because they lie all the time. So they're not good at reading people because they live in this bullshit world of blinders. Yeah.

Where they're just trying to be charismatic and push forth some fake story. Like, I can't like, I I watched this 1 where this woman, hired, an undercover police officer to kill her husband.

I know this case. Yeah. And she goes into histrionics. Yes.

And they all know that she did it. They're all aware, ma'am, your husband was oh, I can't believe. And she hugs the officer. It's like, wow. This is crazy to watch.

How how,

rewarding must it be to be that cop?

Oh my god. It was probably hilarious. You were like this crazy bitch.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Especially, fortunately, if you're dealing with a murder that didn't actually take place.

So here's an incredible story about serendipity that relates to serial killers. So in 1989, I'm then with a girlfriend. We're going to the region, which is in Northern Quebec. It's about 5, 6 hours north of Montreal by car, where it's very famous because the beluga whales come there to mate. The the white Saint Lawrence whales, I don't know if you know them, but these beautiful very rare whales.

They're all white. Oh, wow. And so we had gone up there, and we're we end up at this inn, in the middle of, you know, Quebec countryside. And I walk in there, there's this tall American greeting me. I'm I'm surprised I go Does he

speak English?

He speak speaking English to me. And I so I put a book That's crazy enough up there. Right? Absolutely. And so I have a book with me that I'm reading.

At the time, I was thinking, you know, maybe I'll go into maybe forensic psychiatry, which would mean I would go to med school or I'd go into forensic psychology, because I was very interested in criminology. But then I decided, I think rightly so, that it's too dark for me also as a career. Yeah. And so I was reading a book titled alone with the devil, which you could probably pull it up pull it up, which is a book that was written by a forensic psychiatrist out of LA County system, where he was the forensic psychiatrist who would interview many of the most famous serial killers that were running through LA County back then. The the Angelo Bueno, the Hillside Stranglers, the the the the, Night Stalker, the all those insane ones in Southern California.

And so, hence, along with the devil, meaning him sitting with Yeah. The the okay. And as I put the book down, as I'm he's this is the the guy who's checking me into this, kind of bed and breakfast place. He looks at it and he goes, oh, I know I know the author. And I'm thinking, how does this American guy who's in Northern Quebec know this author who's a forensic psychiatrist in in southern in LA?

He goes, oh, I used to be a public defender in the LA county system. Then he met a woman who was a Quebecer and then they moved there together. And, I I used to work with this psychiatrist. And as we started talking, he goes, all I could tell you so this is 1989, so I'm like a 23, 24 year old guy with long hair. And he goes, all I and I was telling him that I have a brother who's in Southern California, so I always go see him.

And he goes, all I can tell you is don't ever ever do something that gets you to go to LA county jail for even a night. Because if you piss off the cops, they'll throw you in there, and they just scream fresh fish out of water, and then the guys will have their way with you. And so I made sure it's never a drink and drive in LA County because I don't think I would have lasted 14 seconds. So anyways, that's hold on. Let me finish.

Okay. Fast forward to 2013. I am in Lubbock, Texas. I've been invited to speak at the life sciences and politics conference. I'm the plenary speaker, and the political scientist who invited me there takes me out for a Texan barbecue.

And as we're chatting, he goes, you know, I know you're from Quebec. You know, my my father lives in, in, Quebec. I said, your father, you're you're okay. Can I just take a guess who your father might be and you and I I said was your dad a public defender in the LA county system? He looks at me as though I'm like an oracle.

He goes, yes, that's my dad. So imagine, I meet a guy in 1989 based on this book, and he knows that guy. Fast forward many, many years later, I meet his son who just tells me, oh, my dad lives in Quebec. I take a shot at throwing, and it was that guy that I met in 1989. How is that for the metaphysics of life?

That's nuts.

It's a small world.

That's that's weird. That's weird. Yeah. There's there's certain things that are like, okay. What are we dealing with here?

Yeah. Like, is this is this a simulation? Like, what is this? Right. Have you seen the the thing about the book from 19 53 that talks about Elon wanting to go to Mars?

Like a Warner Von Braun. No. Have you seen this? Where's my phone? I saw Elon tweeting this.

Yeah. Elon tweeted it. You could find it. See, look, there's certain things where you go, come on. The just even the name Elon, and Elon's gonna take us to Mars.

Like Sorry. You mean in in There's a character.

So here it is. This is in a Werner Von Braun book. So Elon is the elected leader of the Martian government, serving a 5 year term. Elon and their cabinet administrator have enacted have laws enacted by 2 houses of parliament. Elon in Project Mars, a technical tale, is the name of the Martian leader, and the connection between the character and Elon Musk led to speculation about Wernher von Braun's influence on Musk's space exploration.

Okay, Don.

This is a book from 9 I think it's 1953.

Okay. You ready? Right?

Is that when he wrote it, Jamie? Hold on. It said 4849. See if you can find the, the the tweet that Elon's tweet. Because Elon's tweet is hilarious.

Because, like, how is this possible? Because he's like like, this doesn't even make sense.

This is so crazy. Have 1 non sexy explanation that could explain this.

Okay.

1 of his parents was a huge fan of that author, read that book, and in honor of that character, actually called Elon Musk Elon.

Sure. That's great. But, what are the odds that guy's gonna develop rockets? That's true. What are the odds that your little baby boy, who you're naming when he was 1 day old,

is gonna develop

Yeah. That back part. 1953 book, Mars Project by Wernher von Braun, says the leader of Mars shall be called Elon. Someone pulled the original German manuscript out of the archives, debunked the Smith, only to confirm that von Braun did indeed predict he'd be called Elon. And Elon writes, how can this be real?

It's it's kind of crazy. It's kinda crazy because you guys literally obsessed with Mars and has created rockets

that you can catch. Rockets that Have you have you seen when Trump explains that?

Yeah. It's hilarious. It's

so amazing.

It's amazing what he could do with these rockets. It's it's nuts, man. We're we're living in a very, very strange time. What is this? This is Elon's dad?

This is Elon's father named I'm gonna have to read in the book. It's common knowledge. Amazing. He

did name him after reading the book. Okay. So amazing. I so I got that part.

Still, what are the odds?

Still still.

What are the odds? There's 8,000,000,000 people on this fucking planet. What are the odds that your kid who you named Elon because you read a book becomes the guy and Elon didn't even know about it? Wow. That thing with Barron Trump.

Have you heard that? Oh, yeah. That's nuts too. That's wild. Find that 1.

That one's nuts too. That one's completely bizarre.

Barron the young kid? Yeah. What is it?

Well, he'll pull it up. I don't wanna fuck it up. But there's there's there's a few of those that make you wonder where, like, is this a simulation? Is this real? I feel like there's aspects of it that are real.

Trying to find the year. There's a series of books from, like, I think it's the late 1800 or something Yeah. About yes. It's 1900 here, but it's like a a person named Barron Trump goes on these adventures, gets a, like, a guy from Manhattan to be his, like, guide. It's it's very strange and very similar to, like, what See if you can find what the synopsis is, like, what what connects it to Barron Trump.

It seems real weird. It's almost like like the telepathy thing. Like, someone Right. In the past says, I think something's gonna happen 1 day. I just get this feeling.

This is Elon motherfuckers.

You know

what I mean? Like, there's some I think there's some weird things about the potential futures and that might be also what we're seeing with this alien stuff. I think this alien stuff might be the future. Have you

how many times have you had Elon on the show?

Oh, a bunch of times. The book was called The Last President on Adblocker. The Last President. That's kinda crazy because if shit hits the fan, the alien's land, he is the last president. 9 in 18/89 novel called Barron Trump's Marvelous Underground Journey.

It was written by Ingallsol Lockwood. He would go on to write another book called The Last President in 1900. Mystery which involves the Trump family, Nikola Tesla, time travel, and dark forces. Wow. Dun dun dun.

On the castle called Castle Trump. So he's a follows the adventures of a young aristocrat aristocrat named Barron Trump living in a castle named Castle Trump, which is fucking crazy. The character is described as intelligent, curious, and somewhat arrogant, guided by his mentor, Don. His mentor, Don. Barron embarks on a fantastical journeys, including 1 to discover a magical portal in Russia.

Uh-oh. Putin connections confirmed.

Jesus Christ. It's like is this bullshit? Is life bullshit? Is life real?

Wow.

I think life's mostly real. But, you you know, this is the problem with the whole idea of simulation theory is that if, if it's true, if there is a simulation and the simulation if we we develop technology where the simulation becomes indiscernible from reality itself

Right.

How will we know? Right. Maybe we'll know from goofy clues like that. Like like silly coding, Easter eggs that God leaves behind.

I would love to know what was the mechanism by which for each of those stories that you came up with, who came up with? Like Right. Is was it just a fan of 1 of those books who said, wait a minute?

Right. Well, the weird 1 is why is Wernher von Braun writing fiction when he's a fucking Nazi? Why what in Nazi running NASA and before that, he was writing fiction? Like, what how does he have time? How does he have time to write fiction when this guy is in the middle of developing rockets for the Germans?

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing story.

So what what how what are some of the things that, you know, you take away when you interact with Elon? Because I've I've gotten I've been fortunate enough to get to know him a bit better now and so on, and I'm just amazed by what what an amazing guy he is. What what are some of your views?

Well, he's just a fascinating human being. Yeah. Like, if we didn't live in a time of Elon Musk and you were studying him in history, you'd be like, Jesus Christ, what was that guy like? That guy must have been insane.

Yeah. Yeah.

These guys are running 5 different companies simultaneously.

Oh, unbelievable.

Trying to develop a department of government efficiency at the same time and, like, he's a very unique human being

Really?

That exists once every who knows how many generations.

And and to If ever. And to think that there are so like, when this Nazi salute thing came out Mhmm. And, of course, you know, I I debunked it, and there's some way to it because I happen to be Jewish and I know him. But do you really need me to come out with my imprimatur to say no. No.

No.

People don't really believe he made a Nazi salute. They want to believe, so they say they believe because you can get him on that, and he's on the defensive. It's an attack vector. Okay.

So you don't you don't you don't think anybody who levies

a fucking Nazi. He literally wears a a thing around his neck that says bring them all home

Yeah.

About the hostages.

Or did you see when he said I think I don't know if it was after Ben Shapiro when he went with him to to I think it was Auschwitz or something, and he said, I am Jewish. Yes. Like, I'll I'll

Yeah. He's, you know, he's a fascinating human being, and all fascinating human beings, especially all people that are in incredible positions of power and wealth, which is what he is. You're gonna get attacked. Yeah. And you get attacked by a lot of bad faith arguments, and this is 1 of them.

Well, the last time I was in, in Austin, you know, we we had we had met up in person and, but it was delayed our meeting because he ended up having to go to all sorts of depositions. And so he would be texting me and saying, oh, I'm in this I'm in this hellish deposition. And then later when we met, he kinda told me a bit about it. I mean, I won't share some of the stuff. But I'm thinking, you know, if at my level, I get people coming after me.

Mhmm.

It's unimaginable to even think at what level. Right?

Yeah.

For for me, it's a troll coming after me or an annoying academic or an Islamist who sends me a death threat. Okay. Fine. But, I mean, he's getting governments attacking him. He's getting so it's but, yeah, he just keeps trucking along.

It's unbelievable.

Well, I mean, it really helps that $400,000,000,000. That does help. That helps a lot. But, you know, if he didn't buy Twitter, I think the world would be a a far more fucked up place right now. I think we would be far more confused, far less free to express ourselves, and the narrative, the cultural narrative shifted because of people's ability to freely express themselves now on social media in front of everybody, where you you just didn't have that before.

Well, I I I mean, literally, within few days of it being maybe even the same day of it being announced that he was buying it, I had put out a clip on my channel where I said of all things that Elon Musk has ever done or will ever do, none will ever count as much as him having bought Twitter.

If it if it didn't happen, you would have a complete cult like takeover of all public discourse. All public discourse would be controlled by this Yeah. Ridiculous ideology, this woke ideology, this what you call a mind virus.

Yeah.

And that mind virus would have been used by corporations, and it has been, and used by government, and it has been used in order to enact more control over its citizens under the guise of protecting marginalized people and protecting ideas. It seems like they're doing the right thing, and it seems like opposing that is doing the wrong thing. But it's just a wolf in sheep's clothing. That's all it is. It's just control.

It's just the the the government was they don't give a fuck about DEI. All they give a fuck about is votes and power and control. Exactly. And if they can use DEI to get their way and if they can use whatever green energy bullshit they're pushing, whatever they're doing. They're not doing it because they're trying to save you.

That's nonsense. If you look at it from the perspective of this is to gain more power, more influence, and make more money, Then you'll see things more clearly.

So I've I've been asked by in on many in many different context, do you think that this is it? This is the end of all the parasitic stuff. And I keep imploring people to not be complacent and that be complacent. Exactly. Because, sure, Donald Trump is a huge doorstop to all the insanity.

But here's the analogy I like to draw. So you know how there's the evolution of the superbug that comes about because of the misapplication of the antibiotic regimen. Yeah. So what happens, basically? I mean, it literally is a natural selection.

Right? So yeah. So because I'm supposed to take the antibiotics for 5 days, but I only take it for 2 days, and I immediately feel a lot better. I stopped taking it. But what that has created is that the weak bacteria have died off, whereas the ones that have survived until that point have only become stronger.

And through the misapplication of the prescription for antibiotics, I then contribute to the evolution of the superbug. So I argue so I'm analogizing now with the woke mind virus. It's if you don't completely do the antibiotic regimen fully, which in this case means eradicating all those parasitic ideas everywhere. Right? Because it took 50 to a 100 years for those bad ideas to originally be spawned and flourished in the university ecosystem.

Right. So you're not gonna get rid of them in a 4 year term with Donald Trump, and we never see them again. Right. So it has to be a continuous cultural war to eradicate those. Now you'd like to think that it won't take 50 to a 100 years to eradicate them, but it's not gonna start and end with Trump.

Right.

I'm thinking you agree with that.

Yes. No. I definitely do agree with that. And I think that it's also you have to take into consideration, although Trump won and Trump is controlling the cabinet, and all these different people are gonna be able to do his agenda, you still have almost half the country that didn't vote for him. So Yeah.

And all and people are always tribal, and so they're gonna be opposed to everything. Even the good things that he's doing, they're gonna find fault in it. Did you see the CBS, interview with JD Vance? Just 1 clip. Fucking amazing.

Oh, so I should watch the whole thing?

Oh my god. It's a master class. He just Yeah.

He is he is impressive. So good. He is really good. He's Have you have you has he been on

your show? Yeah. He's great. That thank God for that guy. He's he's so good at dismantling those dopey people

Yeah.

And just breaking down. Like, she was like, this is a country built on immigrants. He's like, yes. That doesn't mean that 240 years later, we have to have the dumbest immigration policy possible. Well

and so actually in my forthcoming book that I'm trying to wrap up now, suicidal empathy, I have a section where I talk about these kinds of immigration arguments. And I use something from cognitive psychology. It's called categorization theory. How do you categorize something? So when people say you're such a hypocrite, Gad.

You're an immigrant. Why are you railing against immigrants? Your buddy Elon Musk is an immigrant. And so then I usually give them the following, analogy, satirical analogy, but a valid 1. I say, Fido, the house cat, is a feline, so is the male lion in the African jungle.

They're both called feline. Therefore, I'm just as likely to wanna snuggle when I go on a safari in Namibia next to the feline called the house, the the male lion. No. I recognize that even though they're both called feline, there is a distinction between 2. I don't categorize them as an exemplar of the same identity.

Whereas, what these people play is you're an immigrant. Why do you rail against immigrants? Right. So isn't it astonishing that you could have such shoddy thinking that you're unable to recognize what I just said?

It is, but it's again, it goes back to this tribal thing

Yeah.

Is that people don't want to admit that having an open border is gonna let in terrorists. Yeah. Because the previous administration, which was Democratic, had essentially an open border policy.

Yeah.

And it was based on this concept of empathy. Yeah. And you have sanctuary cities like New York. And then as soon as the mayor opposes it, well, guess what? He gets indicted.

Like, it's also transparent. It's so crazy. It's right in front of your face. And so I I don't understand what they're doing. And, you know, there's a lot of arguments.

They're doing it for cheap labor. They're doing it to get votes. They're doing it whatever they're doing, you're making things less safe. And to oppose getting rid of cartel members and gang members and criminals and pedophiles and serial killers, to oppose getting rid of them and deporting them is just nuts. Well, the perfect Doesn't make any sense.

The perfect example of this kind of parasitic idea and suicidal empathy is that bishop that just spoke that kind of election Trump. Right? They're your dishwashers. They're but nobody's questioning that there might be lovely people. That doesn't take away from the fact that you shouldn't have an open border policy.

Yeah. But she's so committed to empathy that she views any position contrary to complete capitulation of your border as non empathetic.

Right. And that is the perspective of the extreme leftists. Yeah. And that's a it's a it's a cult like perspective. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

It doesn't make sense. What? It's not empathetic. Certainly not empathetic to the people that are victim to those people.

Right. Exactly. Well, it's not it's not empathetic to the, I think, 900 biological women who lost medals. Did you see that study? No.

Right? So but what you're doing

And overall, it's just a small amount.

It's a small number? No. It's not. Well, is 900 small? What would be a big number?

Here's the big thing. There was not 9 100 10 years ago.

Right.

Okay? So what happened in 10 years? And what happens 10 years from now? Is are are we willing to have all female sports dominated by men

Right.

Who believe that they're women? That's crazy.

Right.

That doesn't make any sense.

Right.

Well, in Canada, there was a 50 year old man who identified with a 5th as a teenage girl, so he's competing in swimming events. Oh, yeah. I believe he was a professor as well.

I satirize this in the parasitic mind where I said that through trans gravity, I identify as much smaller weight than I really am. And through trans ageism, I am an 8 year old boy, so I'm competing in the under 8 judo competition.

Isn't it nuts? And then that actually turned out to be true where people, that's ridiculous. Yeah. I remember I watched Dennis Prager on Bill Maher show a long time ago, and he was talking about how men can menstruate. Next thing you're gonna be saying men can menstruate, and the whole place goes nuts and screams and cheer like, what are you saying?

Because this was quite a while ago. And now it's commonplace.

It's commonplace.

Commonplace to say men can menstruate. In fact, tampon Tim, Tim Walsh, the guy was trying he was putting man. Tampons in the men's room.

So at Concordia, which is my home university. Right? I'm now at Northwood, but my home university had last May a 1 day symposium on menstrual equity because menstruation is a human right. What the fuck does that mean? Like

What does that mean, menstrual equity? How can you get men to menstruate?

I'll I'll I'll I'll send you privately, like, literally It's a human right. It's a human right. Like, until that symposium, women had been stopped from menstruating in Canada. What what mean? Right.

What does

it mean? It's so crazy. Well,

unfortunately, for us in Canada, unlike you guys have the savior Trump, yes, Trudeau has resigned officially or, you know, won't be running won't be running the country for much longer, but we're much further down the the woke abyss than you guys are.

So It's a cautionary tale.

Yeah. Exactly. So I think, yes, Pierre Pierre Poilievre will be an obvious massive improvement over Is

that how you say it?

I mean, if you say it with a proper French accent. Yeah. It's Poilievre.

Other people say it differently. What's the wrong way to say

it? Every other way that an American or English Canadian would say it. It's not like even

heard people say, like, No. Don't. It's. Yeah. Pierre.

Yeah. He's a very logical guy. He was 1 of the things that was interesting. A reporter questioned him on whether or not he aligns with Donald Trump and that there are 2 genders. And he said, well, if there's other genders, I'd like you to tell me what they are.

That's good.

I'm open to Yeah. Yeah. Tell me what they are.

That 1 was great, but, of course, the classic 1 is the apple.

Yeah. The 1 he was eating an apple.

That was great. That was, like, straight out of a spaghetti western.

Well, it seems like that's what your country needs, and I hope I hope it happens. I I hope he wins.

Yeah.

I I hope there's some sort of a a recognition that if America changes course and course corrects and America starts to thrive and do better, which I think it will Yeah. And gets the violent crime down and a lot of the issues down and prices down. And if all that stuff happens, I hope Canada comes to its senses and and wakes up from this woke trance.

I mean, I think it will, but it'll be a longer autocorrection.

Yeah. Unless you become the 51st date.

Come on. Join up. By the way, do you know that I posted a a post on on Twitter, on x, where I tagged Trump. I said, dear Donald Trump, look. Can you invade Canada?

It won't take more it won't take more than 4 to 6 committed marines or something like that. Like like, really, to show how wimpy we are. And if you saw the tagging of Concordia that I got on x because people were saying you have a Canadian professor who is being treasonous and get how could a human being be so lacking in humor?

The same thing as the Hitler thing with with Elon. It's like you're So

they don't really believe him?

No. It's it's an attack vector. They're just looking at it as, like, I can go after him now. And this is what this is 1 of the major problems with social media. I said it's, like, it's really good for that.

Yeah. It's really good for people to be shitty. And then, you know, when we talked about, it's like it's the least connected form of discourse between human beings. It's so it's so much shittier than verbal communication, and what is eventually going to be telepathic communication is gonna far exceed that to the point where you're not gonna have to wonder what a person thinks.

You're gonna

know what they think.

You you almost I don't think I I've seen you in many years ever engage anyone on x. Right?

No. I mean, occasionally. I I wanted to get Peter Hotez to debate with Bobby Kennedy because and he was calling me a neo fascist. It's a neo fascist leanings, like, I was like, this is so ridiculous, like, I'll I'll give a a bunch of money to the charity of your choosing.

Oh, yes. I remember that.

I said I'll donate a $100,000 Yes. If you pick a charity, debate him here. Explain what's going on. If you're so smart and you're so correct, come debate him. And nobody, you know, he didn't wanna do it.

It's just the whole thing is just, like, I don't like to do that because I don't like it's gonna sound very hippie. I don't like negativity. I don't wanna argue with anybody. I I don't even wanna argue with people that I disagree with. If I disagree with someone, I'd like to have a discussion with them.

I'd I'd like to have a calm civil discussion with the I don't think things should be I think you should avoid personal attacks and and all that stuff whenever possible. I think it's bad for you.

Is this something that you adhere to even in your personal relationship? Okay.

Yeah. I don't argue. I'm not interested. I don't I don't like bad vibes. I can disagree with someone and I that's I will have people on the podcast that disagree with them.

I'm never mean to them. I never call them names. I I don't I don't think it's good for you. I don't think it's good. Even if I'm look, I'm good at it.

Okay? I'm a professional shit talker. I could talk a lot of shit. Right. If I'd want to make fun of someone, I can make fun of someone pretty easily.

I don't want to. I don't want to. Not interested. I mean, I make fun in jokes. I do stand up.

I make fun on podcast. We fuck around. We joke around. But in real life or in in in actual communication with another person, I don't want it. I don't think it's necessary for you to have a full rich life.

I think it's, junk food. I think it's it's essential, like, you don't need to eat chips. Don't eat chips. Chips are killing you, and Mountain Dew is killing you. Don't eat Mountain Dew.

Right.

I think negativity is bad for everyone. I think it's bad for the person who pushes it out. It's bad for the person that receives it. It's reason why people don't like being canceled, all these people are dumping on you and it's all this negativity and, like, oh, and you feel terrible and they know you feel terrible, so they keep piling on. And I think it's bad for them.

I think it's bad for your soul. I think it's bad for your self respect, for how you view yourself as an evolved human being. Like, that you wanna do that to a person and go after them like that. I mean, the only exceptions are if someone's a criminal. Someone's doing something, like, you know, if it you're the head of a pharmaceutical drug company that's pushing stuff on people that's killing people and you know it is and you're hiding it.

If you're a person who's involved in the trafficking of, you know, underage sex workers or what whatever. What whatever it is, it's evil. You wanna go after pure evil in the world? Okay. I get it.

But most of what people do when they're really shitty to each other is like political disagreements or ideological disagreements, and it just it shows your weakness as a person.

Well, so I think it was Henry Kissinger who said this. He so to your point, he said, never are the battles so fierce as when the stakes are so low.

So I

think it speaks to your point. Right? So people get all animated and I think it's also

a lot of people that don't understand real conflict. Right? The the high I think people have a certain amount of, anticipation just being a human being again with this old operating system that we have. Yeah. There's a certain amount of, anticipation of an enemy and of a threat and of a thing that you have to defeat.

Yeah. I think it's just a naturally built it's naturally built into us to the point where people become illogical, especially when they get super tribal. They're on a team. We're on a team, so we have to defeat the people on the other team. So you say horrible things about people on the other team on Twitter and then people retweet it and post to you and you feed off of it.

I think it's a stupid way to communicate.

I think

it's a stupid way for human beings to think and behave, and I think it goes back to what I said before about ideas, that you're not your ideas. Right. You you cannot be your ideas. If you wanna talk about ideas, just talk about what the ideas and what you think things should be and what this is what you think is going on and have and have respectful conversations with people that disagree, and that's that's the best way to communicate. That's just too hard to find.

So I had 1 negative interaction that sat very badly with me after the fact, and I think we've now cleared it. So to to your point about not going after someone Mhmm. I mean, usually, you know, I'm a very affable guy and warm and the whole thing. But sometimes if somebody pisses me off, I just kinda Call him a fucking retard. Call him a fucking retard.

But usually not someone that I know. It's just Right.

But even if it's a person that you don't know, there's a person on the other end of that.

That's true. But usually if I call you a a retard, it's because you've been kind of doing stuff Right. Endlessly after me.

Right.

So you don't punch a guy if he just slaps him 1 time, but if he slaps you 18 times, you're probably gonna No.

You should punch him if he slaps you once.

Oh, there you go.

Because slaps usually lead to something else.

There you go.

Can't let a guy get away with a slap.

So I you know, I were in Austin, so there was a point where Lex Fridman was doing all the love will conquer everything stuff. And it was pissing me off because it was in the context of, let's say, the Middle East, where I come from, where I know that love doesn't conquer all. And so that shtick was getting me angry. And so I kinda went after him, not like in a mean way calling him names, but I said, you know, it's kind of infantile to think that love conquers everywhere or something. And then he he got upset and then had blocked me.

And that never sat well with me. Not because he had blocked me, but because I don't like to have can you know, maintaining a bad vibe with someone.

Right. Right? I kinda maintain it if he you're still blocked.

If I'm still blocked

and when Are you still blocked now?

I don't know if I'm still blocked.

I bet you're still blocked.

I don't maybe. I don't

think he unblocks people. But you can't block people now. Well, you can block people still. You just can still still say yes. Exactly.

Could still yeah. To his credit, and I think mine, we kind of kissed and made up. And he said, oh, you know, if you ever come to Austin, you know, I'd I'm always happy to talk to you, and I'd love to, and I'm a fan of your work. And we haven't been able to connect. Okay.

Thank you.

I'll connect you.

Yeah. But that makes so to your point, that made me feel better because there was, like, this negativity. Even though I'd never met him and I don't know him, I don't like that there's a guy that exists that is in any way upset at something that I said about him. Right. Right.

He's not a Nazi. He's not a Islamist terrorist. I I don't want that. And so I take your point, and I and I'm glad we patched, we cleared up. Haven't cleared it up yet with, our mutual

buddy. Oh, you know that guy?

The the Malibu meditator?

Well, you know, he's on his own journey.

But even I've I've really toyed with just sending him an email, and it doesn't matter. Like, it's not like he's in my close personal circle of friends, but I don't like having so I wanna say, hey hey, buddy. You know, there's no hard feelings between you think I should do it?

Yeah. Why not?

Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. It's not gonna hurt. I had a conversation with him on the phone. I think, you know, life is short.

Life is short.

It goes by very quickly. And like I said, I think that stuff engaging in that stuff is just like eating junk food. I I don't think you should do it. Yeah. Don't think it's smart.

I have But less less enjoyable than junk food.

Of all the wonderful conversations we've had, 1 of the pieces of advice that always rings in my head from Joe Rogan is you read your effing comments. Are you insane? Or something like that you had said to me. Yeah. Because 1 time I was we were chatting and you said And you were upset?

And I was upset. Yeah. And so every time I almost feel like I'm falling into that trap where I'm starting to scroll, I go Joe Rogan and then I title it.

So There's also a thing too where if someone writes something, for some reason, it seems more real than if they just say it to their friend. Yes. You know, people talk shit all the time. They say things, and then they say, I shouldn't have said that. You know?

Yeah. But when it's written down, it's out there forever on the Internet Right. Which is really weird. Yeah. You know, which is a it's another aspect of it that's very strange.

Earlier, you were talking about, can we stand up comedy or something? I I can't remember exactly what you're saying, but I and I thought I'll have to tell him this guy. The funniest bit I've ever seen, of course, you will know it, the bit with Bobby Lee and Brian Callan and another guy. I don't know what his name is, where he's telling them that he was molested by a downstair. Okay?

Yes. Brendan Schaub.

Yeah. So I've probably watched that 10 times and there hasn't been a tedium in my laughter. Like, usually, if you see a joke, the 4th time is less funny. So every time I go back to it and I watch it, I laugh as much as the previous time

I watch. It's very ridiculous. Yeah. But that's the beauty of podcasts. It's like you could never have something that ridiculous on, like, Saturday Night Live or on the Jimmy Kimmel show or any, like, late night talk show.

It's like the only place that's no holds barred like that is podcast.

Oh, he that guy is really funny.

Bobby's very funny. He's very funny.

It's I I kinda got I first learned of him. I saw him, on Curb Your Enthusiasm where he was do you know do you know that he was on that?

I didn't know he was on that.

Yeah. He he's like a Korean bookie to Larry David or something. And whatever. Some fun and he's speaking with a Korean accent. So I thought, oh, who's this guy?

And then I discovered him and so I watched some of his stand ups. I mean, some of it is a bit harsh, but but he is he is funny.

He's he's a good dude too.

And I Very, very good guy. Saw him in, with Bill Maher recently. And I'm sorry. No disrespect for Bill Maher, but I think Bobby Lee is a lot funnier than Bill Maher. But Well what I know, I'm not a professional comedian.

Purely he's purely funny, whereas Bill Maher is very political and opinionated and Right. You know, he he has that sort of, antagonistic personal style of politics. And Yeah. It's never just about ideas. It's complete mockery of everything.

It's like a comedic bent on everything.

Right.

Which everybody likes different things, you know. So you People like that.

You've you've had them on the show?

Yeah. Yeah. I've had them on. Yeah. A couple times.

I like them. It's just like I don't talk to people like that, though. And this is like as I've gotten older and wiser and had more experiences in life and thought about things more and more and more, I've decided to engage in as little of that shit as possible.

So it's interesting because you're interested in a sport that's all about combat and Mhmm. Fighting, and yet you live by the model of the exact opposite of that, which I wonder if many fighters might have that because they A

lot of fighters have that.

Because they realize that their physicality is actually quite ominous. I wanna live exactly the opposite of that in my personal engagements with people.

They also realize, like, all that is extra energy. It's all just energy that you're giving out to conversations online, arguing with people online. Just bad energy. Right. It's not it's not a good use of energy, I should say.

It's it's a improper use of energy. It's a waste.

This is

why I describe to people. I'm sorry if I've heard if you've heard this before. I say, think of your mind as your mind has units of thought. You have a 100 units Right. That you can use, and you're using 30 of them on social media arguing That's a good way to

look at it. Yeah.

Now, you've deprived yourself of your music or your poetry or your art, whatever you do that you really like to do. You deprived yourself of your access to your units of thought that can focus on this positive thing because you're spending time arguing about whatever the fuck it is, whatever it is online.

Yeah.

Whatever it is. Whatever. You just why? Why?

So let's say forgive me for asking an intrusive question. Are you able to stick true to that motto as a fight is brewing with your wife?

Yeah. I don't argue with like that. I don't ever, like, I don't get mean ever. Never. I don't I don't we don't even yell.

We'll talk about stuff. We'll we'll we'll disagree on stuff, but it never gets shitty. I don't think you should talk to people like that that are your friends. I don't think you should talk to your loved ones like that.

Yeah.

I mean, sometimes you have to tell your friend, hey, dude, you're being a fucking idiot, like, you gotta stop doing that. You're gonna ruin your life. You're doing it for their benefit. Right. And sometimes you have to speak in harsh language just to let them know how you actually feel about what's happening.

But for the most part, I don't think it's I don't think it's good in any way, shape, or form. And if you're in 1 of those relationships where you yell at each other and throw things at each other and call each other the worst things possible and then make up, like

Well, December 5th, I just celebrated 25 years.

Congratulations, sir.

Thank you, sir. How long have you well, how how long

15? 15. Yeah. Look, it's it's beautiful to be happy. It's beautiful to be in a good relationship.

But like all things, like online communication, like purse interpersonal communication, it takes work.

Yeah.

And you have to have, you know, a thought like this is what I don't want out of my life. I don't want conflict. I don't want bullshit. And I don't wanna be the cause of conflict. So you have to have your own shit together too.

Some people, they don't want conflict, but they create it all the time by stupid decisions and bad behavior. And you gotta learn that too.

But so how do you are you able to completely do this when people are coming after?

I don't People come after me all the time.

I'm sorry. Troll. I mean, like,

people I know come after me all the time. I ignore it.

You right. And I

don't engage.

Okay.

Good luck. You can have your opinions about me. Good luck. It's okay.

Right.

Have fun. Enjoy your life. I'd I I self assess all the time. I self audit my own behavior. I'm my own worst critic.

Right.

So things that other people that are saying about me, whether especially if they're inaccurate, it doesn't work. It doesn't affect me. I don't care.

Right.

I'm happy.

You are a model to live by, sir.

Well, I try, but it's hard work. It's not like this is an it's an easy thing to, like, to try to stay at peace all the time. Do you ever work at it.

Do you ever foresee deciding, I've spoken to all the interesting people I could you you do?

There could be a point in time I don't wanna do this anymore, but I think it'd be more related to not wanna be public anymore, not not interested in, like, having your thoughts out there in the world. Okay. It might be to come a point in time where I wanna enter a different phase in my life where I don't think about expressing myself publicly anymore.

Okay.

That could be I could see that where I'm just thinking about just living my life and doing the things that I'm interested in because I'm interested in a lot of things, and I don't wanna limit the amount of things that I'm exposed to that I'm interested in.

What are some of the things that, you're taking? You know, the ceramics course that you've always you you you know, whatever. What, you know, what what are some of the things that are

Between, like, the I'm full of stuff. Between martial arts and comedy and archery and playing pool and all the different things that I enjoy doing. I I when people tell me they're bored, I just don't understand. I don't understand how you can be bored. The world is so interesting.

There's so many different things to learn.

But by the way, what you just said is exactly why your podcast has been so successful because you exude in French, you say. Right? A a joy for living. And that curiosity, that, you know, insatiable love of life that makes you open to all these other people who sit in the seat that you say, give it to me. And if you didn't have that quality, you could have had all the other qualities.

If you didn't have that quality, I don't think your show would have been successful. You're probably right. So you're no. But it's true.

Yeah. No. I'm sure.

Because, I mean, a lot of people will tell you know, they'll ask me, oh, you know you know Joe. What you know, what's his secret? I said, there's no secret. He's a cool guy who wants to have cool conversations. I mean, really

I think the secret is numbers too. It's Meaning? Putting in the numbers. Like, I I do a lot more podcasts than most people. So I mean, there are 5

days a week. Right? 4,

mostly 4, sometimes 3, sometimes 5.

Okay.

More threes than fives, but a bunch of fives. But the most important thing is just for 15, 16 years. It's like I just I've I've done it forever. And so in doing it for that long over the course of that immense amount of time talking to people, you just get better at talking to people. It's like everything else.

You get better at it the more you do it, and then you understand what sucks about what you're doing.

What percentage I I'm not asking you to give names or anything. What percentage of guests that come on your show the first time you've come to the realization that they're not good enough conversationalists to ever invite again? Is that what it It happens.

Yeah. It happens. But I mean, it's I don't wanna give a number, but, I mean, it definitely happens. It's like you don't know until you talk to someone. And some people you could tell some people are bullshitting you, and some people are pushing an agenda, and some people just aren't that good at talking, and they're not compelling, and you can't drag anything out of them, you know, well, this would be a 1 time conversation.

Right.

Yeah. It happens. But thankfully, you know what? You and I, what is this? This is our

Number 11. 11.

Wow. I was gonna say 10. Wow.

And I'll just say this. I think my first time was 2014. Wow. We're 2025. So that means we are on 1 1 show a year.

Wow. For bang down there. For many more years. Thank you, sir. Thank

you, sir. It's always a pleasure.

You are such a joy.

Always a pleasure. Appreciate you very much. Alright. Thanks, dude. Alright.

Bye, everybody.