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Welcome back to Morally Abhorrent. And when we created this, this little sideshow attraction for the Le Batard Show alongside Chris Whittingham, it was to discuss a World Cup that everybody had mixed feelings about in Qatar. And never in my wildest dreams did I think that the title would still play 4 years later when the United States, Mexico, and Canada would jointly host the next World Cup. This is a World Cup that has left me feeling super conflicted and many in our audience super conflicted because we all thought that this would be going better. And I'm not just talking about the nation at large. I'm talking about the soccer and our global positioning inside of FIFA. And we're going to explore that a little bit here. And in this first episode, as we reintroduce this concept to you and the greater DLS universe, we're going to have a central focus. I'm going to have a lot of friends, a lot of familiar faces come through the show. Chris Whittingham will indeed be back. In fact, he will be in our next episode. But I wanted to start with the USA. We are hosting, after all. This is a pivotal moment in U.S. soccer history, not just for the nation as it develops into a, a soccer nation, but also as a program.

2026 was supposed to represent huge progress and a legit opportunity to do something outstanding on the men's side. And right now there is very little reason for hope. So we're going to bring in Tom Bogert of The Athletic, Galazzo, and Soccerwise, the premier soccer insider, to help give us a lay of the land and catch you up On Some History. Tom, thank you for doing this.

Thanks for having me.

I know we talk ad nauseam in private about all the drama surrounding the U.S. soccer team. You're probably a little bit bored by it, so I just want to give people kind of like the, the top news items here. What happened from the last World Cup to where we are, and why is the U.S. so damn dramatic?

So at the last World Cup, the United States were the youngest squad at that tournament. They did not exceed expectations, but they did not fall below it. The round of 16 and the performances therein was just about what we'd expect. The fan base may have disagreed, and that led to a lot of discontent under head coach Gregg Berhalter. But the top line here, since 2022 to now, not enough of the players have developed to quite the level we thought that they might. The poster boy for that, of course, is Gio Reyna. Gio Reyna coming into the 2022 World Cup, was viewed as not just like an American wonderkid, like a wonderkid across the world. Like, he was one of the best in his age group in Europe as a teenager. Injuries have slowed him down and he stagnated completely to the point where he played 500 club minutes at Borussia Mönchengladbach this year after being a peripheral figure for Borussia Dortmund the last few years. Christian Pulisic was— is still the best player in this team. He had a fantastic first half of the season for AC Milan this year. And then he did not score for club or country in the calendar year of 2026 until the last friendly.

So, Mike, I don't know about you. Maybe there's a little bit more optimism after the United States beat Senegal 3-2.

Well, there is a little bit more optimism. And before we get into reason for that optimism, there is a little tea that was spilled over the last few years. A lot of infighting. A lot of people— you mentioned Gio Reyna— might be surprised to see him on this roster. There was a lot of infighting, a lot of drama. And for a golden generation that hadn't really, really accomplished anything, it all got a little excessive and way too dramatic for U.S. soccer fans' hopes. And I kind of feared that there was no coming back from it. Are these guys ever going to like one another? Because that's always been a big part of the great underdog U.S. men's national teams is they were tight. And you can cite examples like 1998 when they weren't so tight. It could be disastrous. So what's happening here with this team chemistry? Can they survive the drama? If you could give a little bit of background on that drama and help us learn how they pivoted and improved and came together.

Let me try to tell the story without taking up 9 minutes of just monologuing. But so at the last World Cup in 2022, Gio Reyna, as I said, he was one of the most talented young players in the world, in Europe in particular. He wasn't coming into camp like, with like perfect health. And he had been in and out in World Cup qualifying because of that. But when he played, he showed some special, special moments. Before the World Cup, or in the lead-up to the World Cup, while they were in Qatar preparing, the head coach, Gregg Berhalter, told Gio Reyna, like, you're probably not going to be a starter. Like, I don't view you as that in this tournament. He did not react well. It got to the point where there was a vote of whether or not Gio Reyna was going to get kicked off of the World Cup team just before the World Cup while they were in Qatar. They ultimately landed with him staying with the team, and he became like not a sideshow. It was part of the experience. Like, that is one of the biggest takeaways. He did not play much, and when he did, he was not effective.

They ended up— I think he played a good chunk in that game against the Netherlands, and he didn't really change the game when they got eliminated. The— what makes this even more thorny is Greg Berhalter, the former coach and the coach during that time, and Gio Reyna's father Claudio, not only were US national team teammates, they are both from New Jersey and they are just about lifelong friends. Their wives played college soccer together. Those two families were as close as just about humanly possible. And then during this Gio Reyna saga, Gio's father, Claudio Reyna, again a US great, former teammate of Greg Berhalter, was like blackmailing the Federation, saying, you know, I know things about Greg, play my son. Like it was legitimate, like blackmail. And again, as a fellow New Jersey native, I'm trying to be careful with the blackmail in New Jersey. And it all, it all doesn't look so good. And it ends up coming out. That there was an altercation between Gregg Berhalter and his wife when they were in college that was physical, like it was, it was a kick or something to that effect, something that Gregg Berhalter's wife and family, they had moved on from.

And in the eyes of the public, if she wanted to tell this story publicly, it was her story to tell. But Claudio Reyna was going around to US Soccer saying, I know these things about Gregg, like using it as blackmail. Gregg Berhalter remained the coach. And that got really, really weird because there was this period where his contract expired, but they hadn't named a new coach. They're still doing a coaching search. Gregg Berhalter gets brought back and he does name Gio Reyna in some of his squads before he ends up getting fired a couple of years ago, two summers ago, to be exact, after a disastrous Copa America run. Since then, you know who's gotten into this United States national team? Gregg Berhalter's son, Sebastian. Sebastian Berhalter and Gio Reyna. Are— have been close because their families have been close forever. They all say this is all behind us. Gio Reyna goes as far to say, this isn't redemption for me because I don't have anything to be redeemed from, which I thought that he was going to get some different media training and maybe be able to answer that question a little bit better.

But I respect his honesty, so we'll leave it at that. But Sebastian Brawner and Gio Reyna are like doing things together off of the field. And from what I've been told around the camp, and if you ask any player on the record, they go out of their way to talk about how tight this group is. This is a brotherhood. There was a documentary on HBO that I think is still airing right now that has been being filmed since before the '22 World Cup. And Tim Weah, Tyler Adams, all of these guys are like, this is a brotherhood. What I'm most excited for the people to see is how close we are and how much we love each other. So, Mike, it is a fair question from the outside to ask this. But if you look inside the locker room, that's what the guys are saying, that this is a brotherhood. And honestly, that started under Gregg Berhalter. There were criticisms about either favoritism or it wasn't a competitive enough environment. But what he did was built a locker room, built a team culture, and then he got fired because that got stale. And Mauricio Pochettino has taken over, a star head coach, somebody who has not managed at an international level.

He's had some slip-ups along the way to get here, but his whole thing was, okay, yeah, you guys are all brothers now. I don't care. Everybody needs to fight and compete for their spot every single day in training, because even if you win it today, you got to go ahead and win it tomorrow. So It's a lot of different versions of this team and a lot of things that are coming together. But in terms of the locker room, the players themselves would say this is a brotherhood and we are as close as ever.

Well, let's talk about Pochettino, because this was a big splashy hire. Pochettino has managed for some huge club teams over in Europe, and a lot of U.S. soccer fans with 2026 in mind wanted a huge name. Now, I am a Chelsea supporter. I historically haven't been the biggest fan of Pochettino, but I did admire the ambition. Because U.S. Soccer seemed to be taking the role more seriously, whereas before it was always such an incestuous job that it would be the pool of the same 4 familiar names. You'd go back— I honestly feared Bruce Arena might be back in the mix. And so they did something big and they swung for the fences. How did this start with Pochettino? And it hasn't always been smooth. In fact, there have been some peaks, there have been some valleys. And where do things stand now?

So if we're going to do real recency bias, it does feel better after they beat Senegal 3-2 in a friendly. There was a lot of really good attacking patterns. And for me, that was the biggest thing under Pochettino in the calendar year of 2025. They called up 71 players. 71. I don't, I don't understand. I think that's too many. I get that you're trying to get the lay of the land and understand the pool and give a lot of people chances. And again, it's designed insecurity by this coaching staff that you can never feel comfortable that you have your spot. Well, 71 players, I think, is too much. Even so, they've had some valleys, man. They've— they got smoked by Turkey and Switzerland last summer, right before the Gold Cup. This is when Christian Pulisic, the team's best player, asked the coach, hey, do you know the Gold Cup that's happening later this summer? Can I skip that so I could rest and be ready to go for Club Forum and be able to last the year? Pochettino said, hey, if you don't want to be here for the Gold Cup, you can't come for those friendlies.

Like, screw— like, that became a public thing. And then in the fall, there was legitimate questions. Is he going to get— can they even fire him? Do they have enough money to fire him? Like, how could this happen so fast? They were getting killed at home against South Korea in New Jersey at Red Bull Arena, and it was like 80% South Korea fans, which is not abnormal for the national team because South Korea had never been here. That's what it's difficult to always have a home environment in this country because it's so unique. All that being said, it was like, oh my gosh, is he going to get fired? Can they make a change? Like, his job security was like really being questioned. In the fall, they performed much, much better. They switched to 3 at the back during that South Korea game and things were looking really good to end the year. And then in the March window to start 2026, they changed the system and they changed positions and they look awful again and they get just absolutely played off the pitch by Belgium and Portugal. Portugal is a team that, that is better.

But Belgium, while they are better, it shouldn't have been like that stark. So even when things were like getting better, he just changes the team, changes the lineup. And there were so many different lineups, so many different setups. And even in this game against Senegal, for all the good, the starting goalkeeper didn't play at all. Like, that's fine, right? But it's just indicative of all the different changes. When he named the World Cup roster, there was two central midfielders, one in particular, name of Tanner Tesman. The question was, is he going to start? Not is he going to be on the roster? Well, he's left off the roster. Same thing with Diego Luna, who played 17 of 18 games in 2025. And Pochettino, like, he was on all the marketing stuff. Pochettino talked about how much he loves this player and all this. And all of a sudden he's not called in the team. I talk to like sources around players, around the locker room who are like, this, this guy is so unpredictable. I don't think we have to be careful. We have to be kind of on edge, on our toes to not either do the wrong thing, say the wrong thing, and just end up in the doghouse.

And we don't even know why.

Yeah, I thought Luna was actually one of the best things that Pochettino did, and I wanted that reward for him. But is there a method to the madness? Remember, the United States as a host nation didn't have to go through a qualification process. So this was an opportunity with low-stakes matches here to figure a lot of stuff out, find out your personnel. But in watching Senegal, this was a very fluid team. The formations were all over the place. I'm not necessarily saying that that's a bad thing, but we're right there on the precipice of a World Cup, and I'm still struggling to find out what this team's identity is. And if I don't know what their identity is, it's hard for me to project a starting 11 that's our best starting 11. So what do you make of that?

My God, I'll save you the trouble. Don't try to figure out his best 11 because it changes by every day and probably a few times a day. Right. Like, I have no idea either. But I guess that's part of the beauty. And will this be successful? Do they get to the round of 16, which in 2022 I would have said quarterfinals or bust? Like, now it's like the expectations have slid backwards because of like they've just been uninspiring over the last 4 years. The talent, the pool of talent isn't as great as we thought it was, or it hasn't. Developed to a point that we thought it would. That being said, if they top the group and get through to the— if they get to the quarterfinals, man, like that ends up being successful. If it's the round of 16, we can have debates, we can have arguments. I don't think so, because they did all of this to be at a home World Cup, to just finish exactly what you did at the last World Cup. It'll feel longer because this is an expanded World Cup, by the way. There is a round of 32 now.

There wasn't a round of 32. That was a group stage last time. And part of being the host country is that like the draw is weighted. The best teams are in Pot A is what they call it. So if you're Spain and England, you can't draw each other in the group stage of the World Cup because it's weighted that way. Well, the host nations also get to be in Pot A. So the United States was always going to have a favorable draw, but particularly so. It's Paraguay, it's Australia, and it's Turkey. Turkey is, I think, the best team in this group. They have some of the best players, but they've had some of the issues that the United States have where they haven't lived up to the sum of their parts for a bit. I'd still very much respect them and be, and be scared. And by the way, while I'm saying this about Paraguay and Australia, do you know who also thinks that they got a really lucky draw?

Paraguay and Australia.

You know what I mean? Like, I don't, I don't even mean it disrespectfully to them, though Australians have taken it very much as disrespect anytime any pundit comes on TV in America and says something to that effect. But like, there, there are no easy games at a World Cup, but there could have been harder games. And now because it's 48 teams, 8 of the 12 third place teams will get through. If somehow they don't get out of the group stage, like you burn the entire federation, it'd be an abject failure, unmitigated, right? But still, they should be winning this group. They should be winning this group. And we'll find out a lot after that opening game against Paraguay, because if they win, that's kind of smooth sailing. There will be less questions and everything will be, you know, hey, look at the process. You question me, but here we are. They drop points against Paraguay in that opening game. Things are going to get really tense between that week until the Australia game.

Yeah, I don't want to be going into Australia needing a result because some really great teams teams have run into that nation in the past. Italy famously had a classic match against Australia in '06 when they won the World Cup. They can be tough. There's not a lot of difference between these teams on the international level. You have these players less in camp, and if you run into a team that's really organized, that has a break go their way, your hopes are dashed. Tom Bogert may be burning down an entire soccer federation. Tom, one of the criticisms over our lifetimes as U.S. soccer fans is U.S. soccer fans are borderline delusional with their optimism and their standing in the world. Now, I don't know if this says more about us and the way that the world has gone over the last 10 years, but it feels like we've done a total 180. You do a vibe check on the U.S. soccer fan right now. Vibes are certainly not overly enthusiastic, bordering on delusion about their global standing outside of maybe Tim Howard and Landon Donovan talking about Deuce Dempsey's, you know, bonafides against the world's elite.

We're not going to get into that this episode. I respect it. Yeah, so what is close to the truth? Am I personalizing my view and how I'm down on, on the program and maybe everything that's going on in my life? Or is there actual real cause for concern here? Because I always think the US is at its best when it is a galvanized underdog team that turns to its athleticism and its passion for the country and its passion for each other in that locker room. And with that attitude they can accomplish some pretty terrific things even when they're mismatched.

I completely agree on that last part. And those were my favorite teams growing up, like particularly like that 2008 to 2012 era, like particularly at the 2010 World Cup as well as at the 2014 World Cup, where we had a few piano players in Landon Donovan and Clint Dempsey in particular, and a whole bunch of piano carriers that were all going in the same direction. And that's not even being disrespectful to Michael Bradley, who's one of my favorite U.S. national team players of all time. He was a dog. When this team has dogs and a couple special players or a couple players who can decide games and moments, that is the peak for the United States. So, Mike, when you talk about your view, like, are you personalizing it? For me, I think there's a lot of, a lot of fans were like creating expectations that were not aligned with reality. We talked about that 2022 team. Potential does not equal current talent. And we were projecting so much from this group. A lot of it was Gio Reyna, but a lot of it was Christian Pulisic. And again, the first half of this year he was in like player of the year conversation in Italy, or maybe the first couple of months of Serie A.

He's done it at a high, high level. He won the Champions League with Chelsea, but, and like he's been the best form of his career in total at AC Milan. But again, the last half of the year he did nothing. I don't think that's on him. That's partly on AC Milan. But it just goes to show with some of these guys like Chris Richards has developed. Weston McKinney is coming off the best year of his career, but for the most part, there was a lot of hope for a lot of different guys that like haven't quite really panned out or at least have not panned out to the way we thought it would. So there was a lot of projecting that I don't think was aligned with reality. So it looks like we've like fallen below expectations. Going to go back to 2022, there was a ton of complaints about Greg Berhalter. I don't, I don't really know in what world you expected that group to get to the quarterfinal. Like they could have. Sure. And again, I don't think that they played beyond themselves. But I certainly don't think that they fell short of expectations because that was a bunch of young players and a bunch of, again, talented players with potential or things that we would hope.

But for me, it was an overrating of the pool that has led people to be soured. And listen, we're not as bad as some of those games against Switzerland, Turkey, South Korea, and again in the last window against Belgium and Portugal. We're not better than Belgium and Portugal. Like, look at that group. Like, just one player like De Bruyne and Doku. We don't have anybody near that level. Like, Pulisic is the closest one. And there's a handful in Belgium. You think, look at their center backs and everything. Thibaut Courtois, their goalie, the best in the world. We don't have that level of talent. So I don't like— I think the expectations are just out of whack to begin with.

Well, does this team have the ability to win over a nation through their style, through their tenacity? Because we have seen some magical runs in World Cups by host nations, some improbable upsets. Russia, granted, they were juiced to the gills, but they found a way to pull off improbable upsets. Germany, when no one expected them to make the deep run that they did because they were just starting a whole new generation, made it just short of a World Cup final. So can this team come together, use what is a pretty massive advantage in these World Cup competitions, being a host nation? Can that emotion be enough to carry a team that has a talent disparity from some of the global elites? No doubt. But when Pulisic is in form, he is a dog. He can be great. He has shown at the very top levels in Europe for prolonged stretches when he is fit that he can be arguably the best player on the pitch consistently. The match against Senegal was very promising. He had Pulisic's— he had his goal and it looks like Pochettino is going to get him in the best possible spot, which is have him in space.

And let him eat. So what do you expect from Christian Pulisic?

So that, that is the key. And I do genuinely believe that if the circumstances are right and Pulisic is good, like, is on, he can be the best player on a team that gets to the quarterfinals. And when you're there, it's— things are so small. You think of even in 2014 when, when the United States played Belgium, like, Tim Howard had a superhero performance and Julian Green scored a knockout round goal in stoppage time and in extra time. Sorry. And Chris Wandelowski had a chance to equalize. And then you go to penalties with a goal goalkeeper who made more saves than anybody ever at a game at a World Cup.

Chill just went down my spine when you said Wando.

So that's the thing. Like, like I felt that way about Landon Donovan and Clint Dempsey. That's how I feel about Pulisic and Balogun in particular. But there's others like really, really good players in this team. It's more about the structure of the team. And I hope that Pochettino keeps it the same. But there's no guarantee because they change all the time. Like I said, they figured out the system that worked really well for them, that kind of covered some deficiencies and played to the strengths. It's when you're in possession, you play with 3 center backs, um, and then 5 that are in the attacking channels. And, and they're, they're in different areas, but you basically like possess out of 3 in the back, 2 in the midfield, and then 5 covering all of, of the channels in the attack. And that lets Pulisic play in that little half channel, not quite on the wing but not quite through the center. And same thing, you let, uh, Serginho Dest get forward, you let Anthony Robinson on the other side get forward, but you defend out of a 4-4-2. And you need the right players to do that, which is The person who's playing that right-sided center back has to be able to defend in space.

That all made sense. It was perfect. And then in March, they changed that when they played better teams. So I, Mike, I think that can actually absolutely work. And if they play to the like peak of that power, they'll win this group. But there's so many ifs and there's so many question marks. And of course, like the small sample size of a World Cup, things go weird. Arda Güler gets a free kick in the 7th minute and puts it in the top corner. That changes everything, right? Yeah. It's a long-winded way of saying like they can absolutely, but there's just so many ifs. And while I think it's there, we haven't seen it enough for me to confidently be like, absolutely, yes.

Yeah, there's a chance that Pochettino decides, no, we're just going to pack it in and be super defensive. It's, it's really hard to project. But right now, best I can tell, these backs are getting involved in the attack way more than I'm used to seeing historically from the U.S. national team. And that's going to require a lot from these central defenders and tracking back. And the team captain is 38 years old. I don't, I don't know how much he plays. I do have some thoughts on, on Tim Ream actually being named captain, but typically when that is the case, when you have these backs getting as involved in the attack and Dest just scored, so he's certainly getting frisky near the box. You need a goalkeeper to kind of be that Tim Howard type of guy that can save you a game. And historically, the US has always had a very solid goalkeeper. This is the most unstable, uncertain goalkeeper situation that the US has had. In my lifetime. Why is that? We could always put out good goalkeepers that you can depend on.

And we'd have a backup who would start for a lot of other countries. And it was— it's funny how that kind of worked out. Like, that's always been a point of strength. I don't necessarily think it's like a weakness or anything. It's just definitely not a strength at this moment. So Matt Turner was the starter in 2022. He is statistically one of the best shot stoppers in Major League Soccer history. He went from walking on at FDU in college to being like a 4th round draft pick in MLS. And by the way, there are more teams that don't make a selection at that point of the MLS Super Draft than teams that do. Like the most common pick at that time is pass. Matt Turner was selected, then he wasn't signed at first. He goes to training camp. So this is just a remarkable story. And then he's lost his starting spot over the last 4 years because he went to Arsenal. They broke his brain. They tried to make him play out of the back more. And same thing that happened with Zack Steffen when he went to Manchester City. All of a sudden he went from an elite shot stopper to just okay, and probably a little bit less than that in Premier League.

He's back in MLS now and he's back to that like incredible shot stopping form, which with the United States now, yes, in modern soccer all the goalkeepers have to play out of the back, but like it's not like Arsenal, it's not like Manchester City or Spain or England or whatever, right? Like I call me old fashioned. What I care most about is my goalkeeper that can then— that's a shot stopper. So if he ends up playing and he started this last friendly, I'd be fine with that. That being said, Matt Freese has earned this job and if he is the starter, as he should be, as I believe he's going to be, he's maybe not quite the elite levels of shot stopping that Matt Turner can get to, but he won't be, he won't be a weakness. And no, it won't be like a match winner necessarily, but I'm not entirely worried about goalkeeper. But like it is in the absence of having a Tim Howard or having a Tony Mühle or having whoever you want to insert in between those two guys, like it's not quite that. And And that is, that is at least a little bit of a concern.

But Mike, I wouldn't call it like a weakness.

All right. So historically, your captain plays all the time and is in the starting 11. I'm not so sure that's what's actually going to happen here with the U.S. and Tim Ream. Tim Ream, probably, you know, it's up for debate, but I can see what he brings to the table. And with the roster at the number that it is, you can certainly argue on merit why Tim Ream should be a part of this team, especially for a team that has been hit with valid accusations that they are immature. Is that why Tim Ream is the captain? Because in other examples of guys like Pulisic wearing the armband, or a guy that was vice captain and wore the captain's armband when Ream was not on the pitch, and Weston McKinney, a guy that has broken, you know, curfew violations in the past and hasn't been the most mature. Is this a decision by Pochettino that is actually more about keeping that pressure from guys that might have, you could argue, have failed as captains before from a leadership standpoint and letting them be free of that responsibility?

I think it's kind of the case with Pulisic there and McKinney. Like, I think he's a leader in this group. But for me, Tyler Adams would be my captain. He was the captain at the 2022 World Cup when he was 23 years old, and he was one of the youngest captains ever, really. And he's, he's been like a veteran leader since he was like 16, like when he broke through with the Red Bulls. I've never seen a kid so mature and such like a natural born leader. And he's everything that I'd want in a captain.

Right.

And he just hasn't worn the armband under Pochettino. I don't, I don't particularly know why, but Pochettino has gravitated towards Tim Ream. I think he's worn the captain's armband in, what, 17 of, of Pochettino's 24 games. Pulisic did it a handful of times. The last major tournament the US played in was the Copa America that ultimately led to Gregg Berhalter being sacked. Pulisic was the captain that tournament. Tyler Adams was available. So it's just been a bit of an odd, like, rotating cast of captains for a group that's like at the top end, like really ensconced in these are our guys. And that's not abnormal for the United States. You think of it, but the best players are all entering their prime now or in their prime. Like Tyler Adams, when he captained in '22, I was like, okay, he's just going to be the captain for a dozen years or however long he plays for the national team. And he hasn't worn the armband since Qatar. So for me, I'd be following Tyler Adams and I think he's— he'll still be a natural born leader. Even said that before Ream was named. He goes like, yeah, like whether I have an armband or not.

We just view that as somebody who could talk to the ref. I'm going to lead like I'm going to lead. Tim's going to lead like Tim is going to. Christian Weston, Chris Richards, all these guys. So Mauricio Pochettino took a moment of levity when he was surprising Tim Ream at a press conference, which naming him as captain. And as Ream's kind of like overcome with emotion because he thought his international career is going to be over after the '22 World Cup. He was 34 years old and he was kind of like, yeah, like like he was more or less going camp by camp, like, well, might as well keep going if I have a chance. And now he's here, and that's full credit to him. But as he's like overcome with emotions, Pochettino laughs, puts his hand on his shoulder and goes, no, this does not mean that, that because I name him captain, he starts every game. No, no, no, it doesn't work like that. Sorry, Tim. Sorry, Tim. Like, so I think he's going to be the starter. But it was just funny that Pochettino was like, hey, by the way, I know you're my captain, but don't think that that guarantees any playing time because it doesn't.

Is this team's identity just that Pochettino wants all the options available to him? At all times, even when it comes to captain. Because if you look at the roster selection, very versatile players, and it's hard to project an 11 without knowing exactly how we're going to play. And Pochettino appears to like it that way. That's not typically the way international football works. You have a system that is drilled into you. You are organized because we don't have these guys in camp for a very long time. This is a fascinating case study for Pochettino and the US. Will it be successful?

I don't know. Let's look at the group matches.

And try to make some predictions here. We said that it's a favorable group, but as you highlighted, everyone else in the group is saying that too, because the US is atop it. So Paraguay, let's talk about that match. I think 3 points are pretty much a must here. If you want to, if you want to get this nation galvanized, if you want that team to come together and meet the moment, 3 points feels like a must-have here. Will that happen in your mind?

I think it will. But this Paraguay team, though the United States beat them in the fall, they're going to be a difficult opponent. They are. There will be similarities when I talk about Paraguay and Australia insofar that neither one of these teams want to possess the ball. They want to— they want to defend really well, defend really hard. Paraguay is much more dangerous in transition than Australia is. So like, it's Australia is more about defend and bunker and try to control the game, make it really difficult, hit you, be really difficult to play against and set piece or other opportunities. Paraguay has more players that can really hurt you in transition. Julio Enciso, Diego Gomez, Miguel Almorón are just a few that when they're in the open space, they can be really, really difficult to play against. They can defend really well, really hard, and they made it a bit of a nightmare to the point where like tensions were boiling in that, in that last game against Paraguay in the fall. And there was a bit of a fight at the end of the game, like right by the bench. Like there was, I think Miles Robinson was put in a headlock or Alex Freeman was in recent Jorginho was trying to break it up and fell to the floor.

And I was talking to Miles Robinson about this a couple weeks ago and he was just like, yeah man, like that was kind of a galvanizing spark for us. Like we're a bunch of dogs, you gotta let us out of the cage. So that's the kind of game that we're gonna get against Paraguay. And I don't think that they're gonna be too small for the moment or play like within themselves or play scared because they're gonna get kicked and run. If they play like they did against Senegal, like they are, they're gonna win that game. And because they created a lot of chances and they've got the players to finish the chances. This team has just been so Jekyll and Hyde that I, I'm assuming they're going to win. But Paraguay absolutely can, can put them to the sword. And like, if we get the bad version of the USMNT, like, they're not going to win. And you get even a draw, like, but, but a loss would be pretty disastrous. But even a draw is like, things are going to get really, really tense. Like, Mike, at 2022, I almost forgot that, like, they drew the first game against Wales and they ended up going into the final game of the group stage needing a win against Iran.

And this was after getting a draw against England. Like, I forgot how tense the middle part of that group stage was, and they don't want to have that again this year.

Yeah, every U.S. soccer opener seems to be like a culture war between me and the system over, over these last couple of managers where I'm just kind of married to what's always worked with the United States— counterattacking, lean into your athletic advantages. Here, the team that would do that and exploit an attacking team with a counterattack is Paraguay, and we are uniquely susceptible to that, more so than I think we've ever been. Styles make fights. I want to believe I'm ready to get hurt again. I will readily admit and be happy to admit that I am wrong about my perspective. The game has changed. But if they lose, oh, oh, we are burning things to the ground. If they lose, if they lose, the odds got to say they're not getting out of this group at that point.

So I'm curious to see. And listen, I don't, I don't want to have more instances of bringing math into the game. But there are people smarter than me that can game out, okay, 3 points in the group stage equals X amount of percentage points to get through. I'm pretty sure 4 points gets you through because of so many third place teams getting, getting through. 3 points, you might have a chance, but I think 4, you'd feel pretty good. So that comes down to if you draw Paraguay and beat Australia, because Australia, again, all due respect to them, is the game that you got to circle for 3 points.

Both of these games being very careful around the Australians. They must be in your mentions plenty.

But so if they get a result against Paraguay, even if it's a draw, it would be very disappointing. I don't want to let them off the hook for that because finishing first gives them the best chance at going far in this tournament. Finishing third, you're really looking at a round of 32 exit because you're going to play a much stronger team at that stage of the tournament. So like 4 points should do it, but it'd feel a whole lot better if you get 3 off the bat.

All right, Tom, I think I'll circle back with you after that Pottawatomie match and get a lay of the land. My fire alarm's going off in here because of all the open threats that we have both made about burning down the U.S. Soccer Federation if this doesn't go our way. Thank you so much for taking the time out, Tom. Again, you can follow him at The Athletic. He is breaking all sorts of MLS news, international soccer news. Truly one of the best insiders in the business. Check him out on Soccerwise.. And we have plenty of friends of the Lebatard Show on Golazo, and they do a tremendous job every morning with their network. Great coverage, great personalities. Tom is a part of that team too. Thank you so much, Tom. We'll talk to you soon.

Cheers, Mike. Oh, well, cheers to the both of you guys. Guys, the final round of the basketball season is here, and only DraftKings has you fully covered. The DraftKings Sports App is now available in all 50 states. And that includes every market. So you're in on the action at the speed of sports. New DraftKings customers sign up with code Dan, spend $5 and get $200 in bonus rewards within 21 days. That's code Dan in partnership with DraftKings. The crown is yours. Bet with DK Sportsbook. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER, 1-800-MY-RESET. New York, call 877-8-HOPEN-Y or text HOPEN-Y. Connecticut, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org. On behalf of Boot Hill Casino in Kansas, bet, text, pass through, mail, play in Illinois, 21 and over. Void in Ontario. Event contract trading with DraftKings predictions involves risk of loss. Sportsbook bonus bets expire in 7 days. $50 in predictions dollars issued weekly for 3 weeks expire in 1 year. Redeem 1 non-withdrawable reward. Availability varies. Predictions offer void in New York. Ends June 28th. Terms at dkng.co/audio.