Transcript of Dan Gets COMBATIVE With Mike Schur And Joe Posnanski | Hour 2 New

Meditieren, Yoga, Joggen— nichts entspannt mich. Echt? Mich entspannt meine Steuer total. Steuer? Wie Finanzamt? Die Steuererklärung? Ja, ich hab ganz locker über 1000 Euro zurückbekommen. Hast du geheime Connections? Nö, nur die WISO Steuer App.

Wow!

Und das ist einfach? Klar, die macht fast alles automatisch. Plötzlich fühle ich mich so entspannt. Hol dir dein Geld zurück.

Tiefenentspannt mit WISO Steuer.

This is the Dan Levator Show with the Stugatz Podcast. I just saw all over the televisions they were talking about the idea of Jaylen Brown and Milwaukee, Jaylen Brown and the Celtics trading for Giannis. But Windhorst has said on Get Up, quote, the team to watch here is Miami. Miami would say we got Tyler Herro, who's a young player and been an all-star. We got draft picks, including the 13th pick in this draft. And Giannis, I think, wants to be in Miami. There's more checkmarks on Miami. I'm not sure Boston is ready to trade Jaylen Brown. And he also says of the Celtics this weekend, I have not heard that Boston is on Giannis' list. I have not heard that Giannis is prepared to sign the extension with Boston. Just because I haven't heard it doesn't mean it's not true. But until those two things are true, I don't think it's really something that's in the world of reality. We will get back to that in a second. But Mike Schur and Joe Posnanski have written a great book and they're going to be joining us here momentarily. Joe Posnanski, one of the world's best sportswriters, a New York Times bestselling author of 9 books, co-host of the podcast, and also Mike Schur is here with him.

So Posnanski, thank you for joining us. I appreciate the time. I appreciate that you continue to carry around Mike Schur and lift him to levels that he couldn't get to by himself. Why did you guys decide to write this book? It's called Big Fan, Two Friends, 82,490 Miles and the Wild, Wonderful Sports We love. I feel like Mike Schur doesn't have time to be doing this nonsense. So what happened? How did this come together, Joe? What was the idea for it and how did it happen?

Uh, well, honestly, it is, it is completely Mike's idea, uh, which is weird because he doesn't have time to do this and, and it's a complete waste of his time. Um, but he's better telling how it happened, but he got a video from a friend of his from the World Darts Championship that he found himself entirely just blown away by this ridiculous, wonderful event that they've got in London. And he found himself watching the fans, and these fans are dressed up like Minions and bananas and Harry Potter characters, and they're pouring beer on each other just every time somebody makes another throw.

And it was just such a weird thing.

And yet Mike's sort of like takeaway from it was, I think these people are just like us. I think we're exactly like that when we watch our games, we're the same people. And he said we should travel around the world and go to events and write about the fans, write about what it means to be a fan. And it was, I was like, yeah, that's a great idea. And we did it. And we traveled whatever, 82,490 miles chasing fandom.

Metal Ark Media did a 3-part documentary for the BBC on DARTS because that whole scene is just sheer lunacy. Sure. How many places did you end up where you thought that you found things even more colorful or stranger than what it is you were experiencing around DARTS?

Well, first of all, hi, Dan. How are you?

I'm mad at you. Like, you know that, you know what's happened here. You've gone from being on our show to going on Pablo Torre's show because it's a trendier show.

It's run by the same people. It's all the Menilark family. What do you do? Why are you complaining about this?

You have stopped coming on our show to go on that show. Which part of that are you not understanding?

You're right. You know what? Fair. I'm very sorry. I will come on your show anytime you want me to come on your show. But can we just lower the hostility a little bit? I feel like I woke up early, as I always do. To come on your show and see my old friend Dan. And what do I get? I get like, I'm being grilled. It's like you're grilling me. This isn't a friendly interview so far. You're being very hostile.

He's also been on the Pitch Clock multiple times, Dan.

That's the segregated part of the show. That is not a part of the show. That's a part of the show that's adjacent to the show. That's sort of part of the show that I've not been on.

You've never been on the Pitch Clock?

Never. Never invited either.

Well, that is just a blatant lie.

What's this guy doing?

Knicks fan over here.

Ridiculous.

I have never been invited to be on Pitch Clock. I would turn down all of the invitations, but I've never been invited.

There you go.

Open invite for this week, Dan.

You want to join? What other strange things did you find? Sure. What other unusual places did you find that are stranger than the darts community?

Stranger than the darts community? I don't know. That was pretty strange in a wonderful way. We went to— Joe went to the Indigenous Stickball Championships in Mississippi, which is how Native tribes have solved disputes for an extremely long time. It's sort of like a proto lacrosse slash field hockey slash just people beating each other up kind of a competition. We went to Fairbanks, Alaska, because there is a Every year on the summer solstice, the sun never fully goes down, and they play a baseball, a semi-pro baseball game there at midnight with no lights. And we were like, let's see what that's about. Um, that was the mission of the book. It was— it— the events were weird, some of them, and odd, but the point was more about the fans. We wanted to go to places where that drew like rabid, intense fans and to write about and experience what it was like to be them at those events. So we You know, it wasn't like we didn't make our choices based on what's the farthest place we can travel or what's the weirdest thing we've heard of, because we got a lot of suggestions from people, you know, go to the wife carrying championships in Kazakhstan or whatever.

But we decided that we were going to choose the events based on the fervor of the fans. And that was a— it was a good call because everywhere we went, we found the same kind of intensity.

But, Joe, there's some bullshit in here. I mean, 8 hours in a Buffalo Wild Wings watching football, that shouldn't be a chapter in the book. That's— you guys just wanting to expense wings, right?

Why is—

why is—

what's the hostility? The hostility's back now.

That was a question for Joe.

That was a hostile question.

That was a— but it was a question for Joe. It was a hostile question for Joe, not for you.

Yeah, it was—

it was more specifically hostile to me. Uh, yeah, listen, Mike's a vegetarian, so we didn't even eat any wings while we were there. Um, that was— that was one of the— well, I mean, that really is what this book was. I mean, because like, like, our initial idea was we had all of these different weird places to go, and, and we were going to travel all around the We were gonna go to New Zealand, uh, for rugby. We were gonna go to Japan for, for sumo. We were going to India for cricket. We were gonna do all these sorts of things. And, and then it, it sort of started to morph into this idea what it really is about fandom. It really is about what it means to be a fan. And we were like, well, we've gotta do something on the NFL. And we had this idea that we were gonna go to a bar, and then we have this other idea. And then on the way to the bar, we kind of decided like, you know, where do, where do people watch football? They, they go to the Buffalo Wild Wings. So we went to the Buffalo Wild Wings that was closest to us, which was like, what would you say, like 0.8 miles closer than another Buffalo Wild Wings?

Yeah, we put Buffalo Wild Wings into the GPS and like 7, we were in Dallas and like 7 of them came up and it was like, well, there's one, uh, 1 mile away and one 1.3 miles away. So we'll go to the one that's 1 mile away.

At the risk of making this yet more hostile, you say it's a book for the fans, and yet you're sitting here writing about the Hollywood Star of Fame unveiling for Mike Shore. Like, what is that?

Yeah, Mike really, really, really, really didn't want that. That was entirely me insisting that I go and do that. Mike was— I cannot begin to describe how hostile he was when I said that I was gonna come and write about my friend getting a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. Um, but I kind of thought it was important because I, I don't think that we can ignore that, that television has fans too. And, and, and, you know, a lot of those people really love Mike, and, and we wanted to write about what, what the other side of this thing is, you know, from fandom. And, and this was Mike in the middle of what I think is the most embarrassing day of his entire life, where he just had a whole bunch of people praising him and talking about how great he is. And of course, I had to be there for that because that was just— he was utterly humiliated as, you know, all of these incredible people talked about how great he is.

Mike, was there a place along the journey where you were like, what the hell are we doing here? More than all the others. What are we doing?

I mean, we did go to Miami. I'm just going to say it.

To find sports fans?

To go to Unrivaled. And it was very fun. Although we have a real— there's a footnote in the book about the Miami airport. And at some point, maybe offline, I'd like to have a conversation with you folks about the Miami airport.

I mean, it's terrible. It's a third world airport. It doesn't—

what are we doing?

I don't know what we're doing.

What's happening?

What's happening?

We had to return a rental car and it was like we were inside an M.C. Escher painting for like 35 minutes and couldn't get ourselves out.

Oh, wait a minute, though. You're not allowed to do rental car flex when LA is your airport and the rental cars are 20 minutes from the airport.

I'm not saying it's better out here. I'm saying that it's weirder. It's weird in a different way in Miami than I was used to. It was like there was a— we were being experimented on by scientists. That's how it felt, to see if we could get— just like the rats were in the maze and it was weird. Can you find the Hertz cheese at the end of it? What was the question? I forget now, 'cause of the hostility.

You just wanted to make a Miami joke. It's not because of the hostility, it's because of your self-involvement. You wanted to make a Miami joke and you didn't even remember the question.

I think you answered it.

You were so armed with your joke that you wanted to just insult Miami.

What you said is, was there a place we went that was what?

Weirder. What the hell are we doing here? How did we get here? Why are we here?

Oh God, Mike was at WrestleMania.

Yeah, thank you. And Mike Ryan is in the book as one of my Sherpas, 'cause we had a challenge in the book where I made Joe do something he didn't want to do, and Joe made me do something I didn't want to do. And the thing that I had to do was go to WrestleMania in Las Vegas, and I needed help. And so I called upon the expertise of Mike Ryan Ruiz, who, who like came and sat with me in the sportsbook of a hotel as I asked him like the most basic questions about wrestling, because I know nothing about wrestling. And at one point I was like, okay, so tonight John Cena is trying to become the heavyweight champion. And he was like, that's correct. And I was like, has he ever been the heavyweight champion before? And Mike was like, he has been the heavyweight champion 16 times. He was so patient. He was very, very patient with me. Mike, thank you for your patience. And he very calmly walked me through a bunch of dumb questions. And then at the end, he gave me incredible advice, which was he— I was like, what do I need to know about the storylines?

What do I— what am I walking into here? And he said, you don't need to know anything. Just enjoy it. And it ended up being like the— my approach to the whole event was like, okay, I'm just going to enjoy this. And lo and behold, I actually kind of really did. I really enjoyed it. And it was, uh, it was— I was very grateful for your help, Mike.

Summer always hits different once the big game starts stacking up. Now you've got finals games on every other night, baseball's rolling all week, racing on the weekends, and suddenly everybody's looking for an excuse to get together. The other night, a buddy texted me, we've got the game on, come through. I figured I'd stop by for maybe an hour. That was optimistic. Next thing you know, everybody's locked into the game and we're all part of the coaching staff. Somebody's yelling at the ref, somebody else is suddenly an expert on pitch strategy, and nobody's even pretending they're leaving early anymore. It's one of those nights where you take a sip of Miller Lite, look around, and realize, yeah, this is exactly what summer is supposed to be. That's why Miller Lite is always part of these nights for me. It's clean, refreshing, Easy to drink when it's hot outside and perfect for long nights hanging with friends, watching games. An all-American summer starts with an all-American beer. Miller Lite. Go to MillerLite.com/Dan to find delivery options near you. Or you can pick up some Miller Lite pretty much anywhere they sell beer. It's Miller time. Celebrate responsibly.

Miller Brewing Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. 96 calories and 3.2 carbs per 12 ounces.

Hello, listeners.

I know you know this, but the cup. Yeah, it's taken over the US and only DraftKings Sports has you fully covered. The DraftKings Sports app is now available in all 50 states, giving you access to every market and keeping you in on the excitement at the speed of sports. Sweat all the matches you love, all in one place with one app. New DraftKings customers sign up with code DAN, spend $5, and get $200 in rewards within 21 days. That's code DAN. In partnership with DraftKings, the crown is yours.

Bet with DK Sportsbook. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER, 1-800-MY-RESET. New York, call 877-8-HOPEN-Y or text HOPEN-Y. Connecticut, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org. On behalf of Boot Hill Casino in Kansas, that text pass-through may apply in Illinois. 21 and over. Void in Ontario. Event contract trading with DraftKings predictions involves risk of loss. Sportsbook bonus bets expire in 7 days. $50 in predictions dollars issued weekly for 3 weeks expire in 1 year. Redeem 1 non-withdrawable reward.

Availability varies. Predictions offer void New York.

Ends June 28th. Terms at dkng.co/audio.

Dan Lebatard.

World Rawr 3.

Stugatz.

We're going to get that off the ground.

World Rawr 3: Our group chat has a pretty good feeling about this one.

This is the Dan Lebatard Show with Stugatz. Joe, what was the thing you had to do that you didn't want to do?

Yeah, Mike sent me to a pickleball tournament. Uh, I hate I hate pickleball, uh, a lot. Like, like really a lot. And, and I don't hate many things, but I, I truly, truly hate pickleball. I hate, I hate the sound, um, I hate the game.

I hate pickleball.

And, and so Mike thought it would be very fun to send me to not only watch a pickleball tournament, professional pickleball tournament, but also play in it because they've got like a pro-am section of, of the pickleball tournament. Uh, so I went to Kansas City to play and watch a pickleball tournament and truly, truly loathed it as I thought I would. Although sort of the whole point of this thing was to kind of find the humanity in these things that we didn't know anything about. And I ended up finding this incredible story and it ended up being very, very sweet. And I did find myself really understanding and appreciating what it is that people love about that sport. But it's not for me.

I don't like the idea that both of you guys went to something you hated and you actually learned something. I wanted you guys to be tortured. Like, oh, it's so dumb. What was the dumbest part of the experience for both of you guys?

Dumbest? I mean, honestly, it sounds Pollyanna-ish. I don't think any of it was dumb. I mean, Joe still hates pickleball, if that matters to you. Also, hi, Amin. Don't get a hi from you either. It's been a long time. How you been?

What's with all the hostility?

He's a Pulitzer winner since you last saw him.

That's right. I know, I know. A lot's happened.

I haven't seen you guys in a long time, and there's no pleasantries.

We've completely dispensed with the pleasantries.

Hey, Mike, how are you? Are you planning a sequel to the book? And if so, can I take you to Talladega?

Well, okay, that was on the list of things that Joe was going to make me do that I hated was actually the first one was motorbike racing, right?

Motorbike racing.

Yeah, yeah. Because the— anything that's that loud and, and, uh, violent and aggressive is something that I don't have any affinity for.

So that's me. You just described me— loud, violent, and aggressive.

So I haven't been on the show in a while, but I, I think that that would be— that is actually my nightmare. WrestleMania was like— was— I could imagine that being fun before it happened, and then I did actually have fun. Talladega or a, a NASCAR race, or even an F1 race, it's very difficult for me to imagine how I would enjoy that at all or see the positive side of that. So yes, if we do a second book, Mike, this is my personal guarantee, you can take me to Talladega.

That's great.

I got—

there we go.

I got a camper, you can stay with me. College Mike, Nicoletti, 10 Day Tony, and the Watermelon Man.

They're the co-authors of Big Fan, Two Friends, 82,490 Miles in the Wild Wonderful Sports We of. Before we let you go, Mike, any thoughts on the NBA Finals?

I have one very big thought, which is I, for the first time, I'm 50 years old and for the first time in my life, I'm kind of rooting for a sports team from New York. I can't believe it. I cannot believe we've gotten here. I don't know how it happened. I try so hard to hate the Knicks and I can't hate them. And it's, it's very disturbing. Like, I don't like this feeling. At all of rooting for New York. I mean, I love Wembley, and if the Spurs won, I'd be very happy. But really what this is about for me personally is trying to summon the rage and anger and disdain that I always have ready to go for all New York sports teams. And I can't do it. And it's, it's really screwed me up.

Here's a way you can hate them. Jim Dolan invited Donald Trump to the game.

That's good. That's good. He helped me out. He helped me out there for sure. I mean, Dolan, easy to hate. Don't like the fact that he's getting any benefit from this at all. But the team, the players, the coach, you know, Mike Brown, my beloved Sacramento Kings, is like a side story here. And I'm happy for him. I kind of like Brunson. I'm happy for the Cat resurgence. Like, I'm kind of happy for all of them. And I don't like it. It's not a good feeling.

Mike, was losing in the first round and blowing a 3-1 series lead your favorite season, just like Jaylen Brown?

That's hostile.

Hi, Zaslo. We've never actually met before, but it's nice to meet you.

Hey, nice to meet you.

How you doing? I'm a big fan.

I'm a fan of you.

What was the question again?

Sorry. Was this your favorite Celtics season, just like it was Jaylen Brown blowing a 3-1 lead?

It was. I'm going to answer this question as if you meant it sincerely and not as a troll. It was actually one of my favorite Celtics regular seasons. Yes, I can honestly say that. And I went into the playoffs thinking like, this is all gravy. I don't care what happens now. They're not winning the title. So I'll just watch this unfold however it unfolds. The pain I felt was minimal. And then I pretty effortlessly switched over to just being an NBA fan. So take that. Also, good luck with Giannis. I sincerely hope he comes to the Heat. 6 years and 4 attempts to get him.

Too late. Do you want Giannis? Would you want Boston to be interested in Giannis or no?

I, I personally do not. No, I think, uh, the, the, the aging curve and injury curve of a player of his profile, it does not suggest that he is going to be worth not only the assets you give up for him but also the extension that you have to sign him to. And I would prefer that the Celtics roll with the guys they got.

Yeah, I'll take him.

Do you guys want him?

Do you guys want him?

Yes, I'll take Giannis. Top 5 player when Yeah, we missed the playoffs this year.

I'll take them.

Yeah. Well, you guys don't have anything, so when you don't, when you don't have anything, getting something sounds like a good idea.

You're going to make me hostile.

The name of the book, Big Fan, Two Friends: 82,490 Miles in the Wild Wonderful Sports We Love. Gentlemen, a pleasure talking to you as always.

Joe, thank you.

See you later. Thank you for being on with us. That's it. Go get the book, support the people who support us. We love both of those guys. Both of those guys are at the top of the food chain on making excellent things in their respective crafts. Uh, I wanted to ask you guys, uh, about some sound that really surprised me because, uh, this is going to be an emotional night in New York. I don't know how bitter Charles Oakley is about the fact that he's not allowed to be around the proceedings because James Dolan has banned him. The last time we heard of Charles Oakley at the Garden, he was being escorted out by security in a way that was super embarrassing.

I mean, escorted out. He was like, he was like rushed out. They were, they threw him out.

Yeah, physically threw out Charles Oakley with a phalanx of people in security. Can you get for me both Roy and Ameen, heard phalanx and just thought penis, both of them. I saw it on there.

It stopped everybody in their tracks here. I had never heard that word before.

Was that mean a group of people?

Can you spell it?

Like a bit of an army. It's P-H-A-L-A-N-X.

That sounds like penis.

Is what I'm gonna guess. Yeah, I know that I saw that on both of your things.

You couldn't say a lot of people?

I could have, but a phalanx is more impressive. It sure is. It's a bit of an army. You're a writer.

He's right.

You're a man of the people, Dan. Just like Joe Posnanski and Mike Schur rubbernecking at a Buffalo Wild Wings. That was crazy.

It was a lot of people that escorted Charles Oakley out. Did you know that Charles Oakley had this kind of hostility toward Patrick Ewing? Because Mike Schur accused me of being hostile, but what you're about proud to hear here. And I don't know, I mean, you're in basketball circles. Did you know that the disdain ran quite this deep? Because listen to what Charles Oakley had to say about one of New York's favorite sons, Patrick Ewing.

But Patrick is not to be man enough to come and talk to me after I had his back for 10 years. He's a coward.

Could, could that relationship between you and Patrick be salvaged in any way, Charles, or is it over?

No, no. The last straw was when he was in Cleveland. And he knew I'm from Cleveland, he knew I was at the game, and didn't speak to me. Many times he's been in my mother house, you can't speak to me? No, I'm drawing lines. That's the line. I mean, I played him for 10 years. He's just not a good person. I mean, he might make money, did All-Star, Dream Team, that don't make you a good person. And everybody's just saying, well, he's my man because you say he was the leader. He's not a leader. Everybody— I could— if you ask 100 players, maybe one guy said he was a leader. Two people, maybe Mark Jackson and Trent That's some poison.

I mean, shocking. Oak is hurt. He's hurt that he feels like he got done dirty by Jim Dolan, which he did, and that his guys that, you know, he bled for and fought for and all that stuff are kind of like, yeah, no, we're just going to go to the game and hang out and be Dolan's basically, you know, set dressing to show that everything's cool. Remember the whole like Knick alums coming to the games and stuff that really started taking off after the Oakley thing, because they wanted to show, oh no, look, everyone else is cool, it's just Charles Oakley.

Right, Oakley was always there.

Yeah.

Even when they were, they were like a nothing.

Yes.

And you're right, this has been more of a recent thing.

This is, it's sportswashing, it's Knickswashing, I guess you could call it. And so Oak is hurt, very deeply hurt, that, you know, Patrick didn't have his back.

Is he saying he's not a leader because Ewing hasn't gone to Dolan and fought for him? Is that what it is?

I think at that point it's just like, I'm gonna just throw all the knives at him, right? And say, oh, he he was never our leader and stuff like that. I don't know if he was or wasn't, but I think the big thing to me is that he said at that game in Cleveland that he didn't come and say what's up to me. And you know, like, I don't blame Patrick because guess what? Big brother is watching. And anytime these guys are anywhere on Knicks time, they are being surveilled like everyone else. And so that there's a part of this where like, I, I'm sure Patrick would have loved to come up to him and say, man, it's terrible what's happening. But it's like, I don't want to be seen co-boarding with quote-unquote the enemy. And that's a look. And I know exactly how Charles Oakley feels because there were people that I worked with at ESPN who were friends, and then as soon as, you know, Adrian was around, they acted like they couldn't stand next to me. They literally were like, I can't be here too long, I can't be seen next to you.

And so, you know, like, you're like, wait a second, I fought for you. I was one of the people who was fighting for your content to be on air and stuff. And, and talking about it, and then this is how you repay me. It sucks. It really does sting. But I think we're all taken aback because he calls him not a good man. A coward. A coward. You could call him a coward, but say he's not a good person, I think that's taking it a little too far.

I mean, can you imagine you watch all those battles in the '90s, the Knicks and the Bulls and the Pacers and the Heat, and like Charles Oakley is going to call Patrick Ewing a coward and a bad person?

I think he's, he's, he's calling him a coward with regards to this situation. I understand. So like, I can— again, I can see it because I know that— I know the feeling. I know the people who literally did not want to be seen around me because they felt like that would make their standing in the company a little shakier. But to call him a bad person— I wouldn't call any of those people bad people, you know. So to call him a bad person, that's just a hurt Charles Oakley trying to go over the top with his criticism.

I understand why he's hurt though. Oakley can't get into the arena, never mind getting bad seats. These tickets are really hard to get. I have a handful of celebrity friends who don't know if they're going to be able to get into the game.

They're able to go, they have to pay.

Handful, huh? No, but it's not just, it's not just having to pay, it's having to pay and wanting to get something that resembles decent seats. You don't want to be somebody who is a celebrity and is sitting 70 rows into the upper deck because you can't get into good seats because they're so hard to get.

So Sam Morrell and who else?

No, Hank is looking for tickets, Method Man is looking for tickets, there are an assortment of people who are looking for tickets.

Uh, Mayor Mumdani is going to be upstairs. He's a man of the people.

The thing that I wanted to ask you about Oakley though, if you have not followed Pablo Torre Finds Out, uh, the Pulitzer Prize-winning podcast that is part of Metal Ark Media, there are a number of different stories that he has done that are evergreen, and one of them was the surveillance story involving James Dolan and how it is that they are monitoring Knicks fans in a way that feels deeply un-American, like feels privacy invasive. And, uh, Charles Oakley at the center of that, was escorted out of the arena as one of the most popular Knicks there have been. Because I think I can say that about Charles Oakley. New York really loved his rugged playing style that wasn't, you know, doing much scoring, but he was an enforcer for that team. To see him escorted out of the stadium and no longer welcome back—

it was a scene. Like, Oakley was shoving and pushing security off of him, and then it's like they bum-rushed him and essentially carried him through the crowd.

A phalanx of security people escorted Charles Oakley out. Don Lebatard.

Doesn't matter anywhere. We could do it in Buffalo or Baltimore. Either. You say you could do it where? Anywhere. Oh, whoa.

Oh, that's crazy.

That's crazy.

That's crazy.

He said he could do it anywhere. That's crazy. Murda, Murda, tell him.

Stugatz.

I had no idea Mean had that in his locker. That might be his best.

I'm not kidding.

That's crazy, Killer. It's two Americas, Dad.

You don't get it. This is the Don Levitar Show with the Stugatz. When mentioning the Pablo Torre Finds Out podcast though, I don't know if you guys saw here that Adam Silver said that he wants to get this wrapped stop soon. And he kept saying the words— and God, this was funny to see because Pablo has got all of them boxed in, just journalistically fact-checked. There is no place to move. And all Silver's moves are independent. We've got an independent law firm. Independent. The law firm is independent. Well, I think what's going to end up happening here is they're going to penalize the Clippers, but Ballmer is going to skate because people don't realize that Silver works for Ballmer, not the other way around.

Dan, I don't know. I think that the noose is tightening getting smaller and smaller around this where you can't wriggle out of this if you're Steve Ballmer. Remember when we dropped our episode during the Sloan Sports Analytics Conference, at that point in the investigation, not only had they not interviewed Steve Ballmer, they didn't ask anyone, not a single person they talked to, they didn't— not once did they say the name Steve Ballmer. They asked about Uncle Dennis, they asked about Kwai, they asked about everything else. They didn't ask about Steve Ballmer. And I don't think that they knew that that would get out. And what's making this different— this is the part that I don't know if Wachtell Lipton fully grasps it, I don't know if the league fully grasps it, I don't know if other media entities fully grasp it— it's this: usually when we have a scandal, the Wachtell Lipton goes in to investigate, like they did with the Suns, like they did with the Mavericks, and all these other— like they did with the Clippers the first time around with Donald Sterling. The people they're interviewing are people who are in and around basketball.

People. So not only are they talking to them, but they might be talking to other media people. And at the end of the day, the people who have the most information are Wachtell Lipton, the law firm, because they've done all the interviews and they've got all the things. And this is what happened. We have a definitive piece of paper that tells everyone else, hey, this is what happened. In this case, the people they're interviewing, a lot of them are not in the basketball world. So there's no part of this where it's like, I have to worry about will I ever work again if I say this on the record or not. That doesn't exist, number one. Number 2, if I am gonna talk to someone, none of these media people. I don't know these basketball media people. I talked to one person, and that's Pablo, 'cause Pablo spent 6 months building trust with these people in a way that no one else could just parachute in. And number 3, Dan, and this is the big one, when Waqht al-Lipton puts out the report and said this is what happens, they are not the most informed people.

Pablo Torre finds out is the most informed source, and we can sit there and say, "No, you guys didn't ask about this. No, you didn't know about this." Every turn we are revealing and unleashing new information that hasn't come out yet, and that's why they can't wrap this thing up, because they always have to kind of tie those loose ends and they can't.

What's the distinction you're making between revealing and unleashing? Because I feel that Pablo is just revealing it. I don't think that he's unleashing it. I thought he was just revealing it.

Did you watch that last episode? That was an unleashing where Steve Ballmer and his lawyer of their own volition admit to having a side deal? That's insane. Why would they do that on the record in their victim impact testimony? It is so nuts. I was watching, I couldn't believe it. But we got that document, and now the chess game begins. Is Steve Ballmer and his lawyer— are they sloppy, or is this their way of saying, oh no, no, we got ahead of it, we admitted to it, we caught the balls off of us?

This— I want to talk about this for a second because of how rare it is in my experience, not just in sports journalism but in any kind kind of journalism. I want to get to what happened to Scott Pelley in 60 Minutes in a second, because your most trusted institutions for news are falling apart in front of you, and it's going to be super damaging. But the thing that I haven't seen happen a whole lot is the world's richest sports owner and the NBA are trailing a journalist on being informed on something. What Pablo keeps doing— it's now 11 episodes, the last one is pretty damning, and I think some people have some weariness here. But in terms of being able to hit the powerful with facts that they can't evade, Zaslav, I have had in front of me while I'm watching this happen, I feel like I'm watching Silver and Ballmer get undressed because Pablo has information that's so far out in front of information that they have that I can just imagine Ballmer, his lawyers, and Silver getting to each episode from Pablo and being like, mother bleep, I don't mean to speak like Stone Cold Steve Austin when he's chasing his cat around the ranch, but mother bleep, this guy, every time we think we're out ahead of something, we fall behind again because the journalist has his facts in such order that there's no way to move around what he's presenting.

This is setting up so that what the league, the law firm, and Bomber all do can still look like a lie. If they put the wrong information in front of Pablo, because he seems to have more information than not just the people investigating, but also the investigators. Like, not just the people being investigated, but the investigators. You tell me, Amin, what you made of the last episode, because each episode seems more damning than the last.

And that's my point, Dan, is at every point where they can pretend, hey, we asked all the questions Turns out there might be a couple more questions that you didn't ask that Pablo's asking, and he's backing it up with documentation. I think it's also wild that the Clippers continue to characterize Pablo— they did this, they revealed this also in the episode— where in their legal filings they characterize Pablo as like this clickbait talking head. Guys, he won a Pulitzer. Now you're done. You're done. Joe Vardon of The Athletic, are they No, they're done as far as using that as a defense, that Pablo's just some muckraker, like we're just TMZ or something. That's done. You can't do that anymore. Joe Varno of The Athletic asked Adam Silver in the State of the Union press conference he had before Game 1, he said, since all this has happened, there's been a Pulitzer Award awarded, how does that impact how you guys do? And you know, Adam did his thing where he wriggles out, so well, we're letting them do their independent, independent, independent, independent.

Independent.

But the reality is it's not really independent, is it? Because you know who pays the bills for that independent, uh, you know, research or whatever? The NBA specifically. The team that's being investigated, the Clippers, are paying the bills. So Steve Ballmer is paying these lawyers to investigate, and they can say independent all they want, but guess what? If I'm the law firm that the NBA turns to every single time we have a scandal and I'm doing these investigations, do I want to make the NBA look bad? Do I want that? Do you do— do I think that making the NBA look bad—

you're right—

will have me then them, hire me again.

So how can anyone look at this with, you know, at face value and think that there's any kind of integrity here?

The only way is by literally public shame, and that's what Pablo's been doing. He's putting them in a position where if you guys try funny business on this, and we're gonna slap Kawhi on the wrist, and we're gonna slap— and Lawrence Frank has to go away somewhere, but Steve Ballmer gets to live his life like nothing happened, like he didn't do anything— if they do that, it will be so ridiculous, so outlandish, and it will be so loud loud, not only from Pablo but from millions of basketball fans. Millions of basketball fans were like, why does that guy get to—

wait, though, you have to wait before making that determination. You have to wait to see what the penalty is. It seems like you can be skeptical. It seems like you can be skeptical specifically because they're not, or they weren't as of recently, asking questions about Ballmer. But until the ruling comes down, you can't simply jump to the conclusion that they're not going to do anything.

And it just so that it's going to wrap up like right when the season ends? I mean, come on.

So Adam said, yeah, it can't go on forever. He wants it to wrap up soon. My guess is that they're obviously not going to make any announcements during the Finals. That's out of the question. That's fine. They're probably not going to want to do anything with the draft, so probably would be after—

right, God forbid the Clippers lose picks in the draft.

No, he said he wanted to get it wrapped up before the draft because everybody needs to know what their standing is before the draft. Like, you need to have an understanding of who and what you're trading for because you know who's been penalized for what? Like, Silver said specifically that you can investigate something forever. They have to wrap the investigation up, and I assume they're going to wrap it up in the next 3 weeks, don't you?

Maybe. I don't know. Again, if they think they've got it wrapped up and Pablo drops another episode, oh, look at this document that we found, then can you really—

But he just said you can't investigate— you can investigate forever, but you can't investigate forever.

But you have— you can't come to a conclusion Again, this all goes back to what's the intention here? Is our intention to actually find the truth, or is our intention to say, OK, how can we mete out an adjudication that keeps this guy protected and segregated from all the punishments that are going to happen to everybody else?

Have they been investigating this now longer than Pablo worked on it before he broke the original story?

So we broke the story in September. The investigation started shortly thereafter, maybe a few weeks later. Later. And so now that would be like 8 or 9 months they've been investigating.

And Pablo's original reporting was about 6 months.

Pablo started in February. He started February 2025, and our first episode dropped September of 2025. So however many months that is, 7 months, right? Like, it's like 9 months from February to September.

Oh no, no, I'm talking about from, from October.

Really don't want to be caught in this quicksand. It doesn't really matter. Doesn't matter. Uh, let's— uh, a judge in district court in Lubbock County, Texas, has granted the injunction requested by Texas Tech QB Brendan Sorsby, and he is now set to be eligible for the 2026 season, per Pete Tammel. Uh, I'm curious what you guys think. Kevin Clark has tweeted about this: as disastrous a ruling as there has ever been in modern sports. The pathway is now clear: gamble as much as you like, including on your own team, and hope you are or get good enough that you can lawyer up down the line, a much bigger disaster than anything with NIL or the portal.

I agree. This was one that I was actually rooting for some, some clear rules and finally for the players to not win one of these. But the NCAA is the Washington Generals when it comes to court battles, which is why they're trying to go behind everybody's back and have the government just rule in their favor because they simply do win cases on merit.

You have somebody who has gone, whether it's a public relations maneuver or because he realizes that he has a problem, who has gone to rehab because he's got a gambling problem that bets all over the place, and he's going to be a starting quarterback for one of the playoff teams last year as Texas Tech continues to get more and more in the game in major sports in all the ways, including blatant, flagrant injustice and corruption. You little motherfucker.