Transcript of Why a Weird NBA Season Finally Went Full Weirdo On Us, With Tim Legler

The Bill Simmons podcast is presented by FanDuel Sportsbook. We are also brought to you by the Ringer podcast Network, where I have a podcast called The Rewatchables that was on Spotify and all these other platforms, and you could watch the video on Spotify. And now you can watch it on Netflix as well. We put up a bunch of old episodes, and then the newest episode we did on Monday, Zodiac. And we went longer than the actual movie Zodiac. I think we were 13 minutes longer. You can watch it on Spotify and listen to it on Spotify. You can also watch it on Netflix, and you can watch the movie on Netflix. So next week, we are going to do Wild Things, another movie that's on Netflix, a movie that's been on the list for a long, long time. So you have five days to watch Wild Things. And by the way, if you want to get this podcast or the rewatchables or any of the other Ringer podcast on Netflix, click on the My List thing. If you click on it, every time we have a new episode, it'll just pop up on your My List thing, and it makes it way easier to see if we have a new one up.

But it's been fun to be on there. I hope you're continuing to consume the podcast on Spotify as well because we love Spotify. Anyway, coming up on this podcast, the one, the only, Tim Legler. I had a bunch of stuff to throw at him, and I made him go through a power poll of all the teams, 30 to 1. I ranked them. He played off my rankings. We've done this before as a Bill Simmons podcast, but this was fun. We had a lot to cover. We got to talk about Charlotte again, which is really all I want. All I want to do is talk about Charlotte and the Celtics on my podcast at this point. The other 28 teams, whatever. Anyway, that's all coming up next. We're going to take a break. We're going to bring him Pearl Jam, and then Tim Legland. The Bill Simmons podcast is presented by FanDuel. Playoff mode is on. Fanduel has got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live. Offers to boost your winnings every game day. You do not want to miss out on the playoff action, the remaining playoff action we have on FanDuel.

Download the FanDuel app or head to fanDuel. Com/bs to get started. 21 plus in President Select States or 18 plus in President DC, Kentucky, Wyoming. Game problem call 1-800-Gambler, or visit rg-help. Com. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg. Org/chat in Connecticut. All right, our friend Tim Legler is here. We're taping this Tuesday afternoon Pacific Time because he had to fly July. Congrats on actually getting a flight that successfully landed in another part of the United States. He's in Cleveland getting ready to do a Cavs game tomorrow. We're going to go through the week. I sent you my power poll that I did 30 to 1. We're going to go down in order. We've never done this before. You're going to enjoy it. I had a thing at the top that I didn't prep you on. I looked this up. Last 25 games, the best record in the league is 17 and 8, and the worst record in the league is seven and 18. All 30 teams in the last 25 games are separated by 10 games, which raises the larger question of, what's going on this season? Why does it feel like everybody is near each other, game to game?

Anyone could beat anybody on a given night. Nobody is elevating above anybody else. What the hell is happening?

So I agree with everything you just said. It's been the weirdest year that I've covered. Absolutely no idea on a given night to expect. You look at matchups and you think you got a pretty good feel for who should win the game, and you have no idea. And the reason is because I think it's because I'm seeing a greater fluctuation than I've seen in the guys being available, that's been going on for a while, but the availability of players being as tumultuous as it is. That lends the sum of this. But I've also seen a tremendous fluctuation The number of nights that I've seen teams either been in person when I've sat courtside calling a game, sitting at home on League Pass watching the game, the fluctuation in effort. There are nights when you watch teams and you can't believe how flat they are. I've seen more of that this year than any other time, which means on any given night, anybody is capable of beating anybody. It may sound like you think that's a cliché because it's the NBA, but normally that's not the case. If you have teams that are contenders, that are teams that are really playing for something later in the year, we all know that.

You get a team that is not or a team that's got a bunch of young dudes or a team that's clearly not really that concerned about winning games because they're trying to think about the future. You get that team on your home floor midseason in the dog days. You're supposed to beat that team down. I've seen more nights now where those teams have been flat or one team, even in a matchup where two really good teams are about to play, and you're super excited about the game. For whatever reason, one of them just comes out and they're so flat, it's almost borderline disinterested. It leads to these crazy scores, these really weird results. Some of the blowouts we've seen from bad teams beating down good teams, not just winning like buzzer beaters. Like, oh, wow, they played hard. They thought they were in the game and they eventually went. No, they beaten teams by 25 and 30 points on their home floor. I agree with you. It's been a crazy year. Now, I think it's going to stabilize. I think when you get to after the All-Star break, you get into early March, you're going to see some of this start to stabilize, and you're going to start to really hone in on that, whatever it may be, 6, 8, 10 teams, however many you are really interested in at the top.

Those are the teams you're going to focus on. You're going to see more consistent effort and more consistent availability of their guys at that point. I think both of those things have led to it.

I think that's a good answer. I would throw in a couple ideas I had as well. The three-point shooting, because there's more threes than ever. Every year, there's been more threes than the last year since, I don't know, seven straight years. You just have these nights. I might be able to beat OKC if they shoot seven for 30 from three, which they'll do from time to time. When you look at some of the losses they've had. They just didn't make threes. Conversely, I might be able to beat anybody if I go 20 for 42 from three. That just might be what I shoot today, and you're probably not going to beat me because I'm getting 10 extra points. So I think the shooting is better. The depth better. I think there's teams with benches this year where you look back to 2006 or you go to 2013. Nobody had benches. Remember that one year, the Nuggets were good when they had Ty Lawson and all those guys? I was like, The Nuggets, they're so deep. There's like 20 teams like that now. I think that's one of the reasons the Raptors have been good. They can be down 10 in the first quarter, and then you watch their bench just bring them back.

So there's depth. Then the third thing, which I did prep you on, I do I do feel like there's a before and after moment happening with the coaching. I feel like we're moving into this new era of coaches. I'm looking at guys like, for instance, Jordy, Darko, Charles Lee, Missoula, Adleman, Tiago Splitter. There's one more that I'm leaving out because- Jordan. I put Mitch Johnson in there, too. Mitch Johnson. I was thinking about in football when we watched this happen, at some point with these younger guys, like the McVeigh type guys, and they came in and they were young, they were hungry, they were workaholics. It just became harder for these old-school coaches to beat these young type guys. And this was a thing that happened in the NFL for a while. I wonder in basketball if this is starting to happen. These guys are raised on analytics. They're raised on... They have more pieces to work with. They're like chefs in the kitchen that have 10 different ingredients instead instead of four. They can shape their team to a style. They can be like, you know what? Like Phoenix, we're just going to try harder than everyone else.

That's going to be our style. We have one great player. We're going to be really intense. We're going to pressure everybody, and we're going to come at waves, and this is just how we're going to play, and then we're actually going to do it. There's just more of that than ever. I think day to day, I think it's just harder to get through the schedule. I'm impressed now when teams win seven in a row. I think that's shit. Toronto just went four and two on the West Coast trip. I'm like, That's pretty good. Charlotte, I think, what did they go? Four and two, four and three? It's like, That's impressive. You shouldn't be able to do that. But do you see, I know you care about this probably as much as anyone. Do you see something shifting with the coaching here?

I think this is the best collection of young coaches as far as an infusion of young coaching talent that this league has ever seen. I didn't know a lot of these guys very well. I got to spend time with them in September when I did some of those coaches things I was doing. And so what you see is three minutes of film breakdown, but we had longer conversations than that that wasn't air unless the longer version was on NBA TV or something. You might have seen it there. But for some of these guys, last year, I interviewed Adam a couple of times because I had playoff games, and he took over, obviously, right before the playoff. So you get an opportunity to meet him, but that's different in a pregame interview than really spending time and just shooting the shit with him. And I was so impressed walking out the room with all of these different guys you just mentioned for a lot of different reasons. One is they clearly have minds for the game that they're processing stuff and constantly trying to find ways to make offense better, make defense better. Their minds are so analytical in the way they think.

But they have found a way to command the room at a time when I think new coaches come in, there's just natural skepticism on the part of the players. That's always there, particularly when... In some cases, guys hired from within. These guys stayed within the organization. It's a little bit easier. The players have been working with those guys already, so that transition is a little bit easier, but it's still a totally different power structure when now they're the head coach. It's a different relationship. But the guys that have come in and they come from other places, and you know that these players are not that familiar with them, to be able to come in when you're young, particularly when because they made it higher And obviously, why? Because the team has not done well the last few years, there's a natural pessimism and a cynicism that exists already in the room. So you've got to come in, not only convince them, you know what the hell you're talking about, which players are constantly seeking out fraudulent things that come out of your mouth when there's a coaching change to not buy in. Not only do you have to do that, convince them like, okay, this guy's pretty smart.

It's a pretty good idea. You then have to be able to have the presence to to command the situation. Handling both is not very easy for guys to have this many young coaches doing it at the same time. At a really high level, look, and some of them haven't had as many wins as other guys for different reasons. You hope they get a long enough run to turn it around where they are. But that's a long list you just gave. I mean, it's basically you almost named almost a third of the lead.

I literally named 25. Well, you threw in the San Antonio coach, that's eight of the 30. Yeah. And there are all these younger guys. I look at a team like Brooklyn. That team's overachieving. I watched the entire Celtic Nets game Friday night, and we just couldn't put that team away.

Wait a second, though. I love Jordy. I love Jordy. But I will say this, the defense at the end of overtime.

Oh, that was bad.

To allow that three-point shot. That's way beyond a miscommunication. I have no idea. I watched it four times in a row. How did that happen? I just kept replaying it because I'm thinking, with two to go and you're up three, how in the world could González get that open in the corner? Off an inbound pass, where there's nobody within 20 feet of him. I'm just watching. I'm like, What was Michael Porter Jr. Doing? He's running with them and then just stops changes direction and starts running to the opposite side of the court with Sam Hous. But there's no screen that took place. It was so bizarre. But I'm not going to beat up Jordy for that. But that's a brutal way to lose a game. When you basically stole one, it didn't look like you had a chance. It's with three minutes ago in regulation. And now it looks like you can't possibly lose at the end of overtime, and somehow you find a way to let them tie it. So it's a bad loss, but I agree with you. I do think that the team is overachieving. Look at their roster. I mean, there's no question about it.

But then guys like Mitch Johnson and Ott and Darko, who I've always thought was really sharp, he's finally getting some wins now. The people are starting to buy into that a little bit. Adleman is unbelievably bright, and he's just really cool. He's funny when you get to hang around. I mean, Adleman going nine and five without Without Joguj.

And then Murray leaves halfway through that and they're still succeeding and he's getting stuff out of the end.

And look, all the other guys that have been out already. Christian Brown has been out. Aaron Gordon has been out. So you look at the totality of what they are and knowing their best punch by far is going to come over the last six weeks of the regular season. And we're going to get into that. What does that mean overall for how we view what this could look like at the end of the year? Because I I think it looks a lot different than any of us thought two months into the season for a variety of reasons. And we'll get into those top teams as well.

I was thinking with basketball analysis. There was a specific moment, and I was in the middle of it because I was writing for ESPN and we had Grantland, where you could feel the discourse about basketball changing in real-time. And it was the old-school way of like, Oh, he's really good in the clutch. And you would just say that. And then all of a sudden, we started to get numbers. And we started looking at five-man lineups And I remember I've talked about this before, but when I was on content that first year and Rudy Gay got traded and we had this whole argument about, well, what are they going to do without Rudy Gay? That's their guy at the end of games. And we had enough data at that point. But it's like, he's actually not that good at the end of games. They might be fine. And then they went on a run and it felt like this before and after moment for analytics. And I'm starting to wonder with coaches, it's not like coaches weren't using all this stuff for the last 10 to 12 years because they were. I think what's changed is These first-time coaches, younger guys are coming in.

They know how to explain it to their teams and craft different lineups that the players are buying into. It's not like, Hey, I have this wacky idea, and you have your fingers crossed, they're going to do it. The teams are buying in. I see a team like Phoenix. The team should not be 10 games over 500. I'm sorry. But when you watch them, it makes sense because the eye test is telling you, Yeah, these guys, they play really well together. They're all in the right spots. They knew who best guy in the team is. They game the threes correctly. They have enough rim protection size. They can guard the other team's best player. This makes sense as I watch it. But if you look at their roster on basketball reference, you're like, this doesn't make sense. I don't get it. And that's what shifted.

You make a great point for this. And this is why. Think about now the difference in mentality. If you've got a guy that's been around a while, he knew the other way. There was another standard way of analyzing lineups, and it was mostly the A eyeball test and your gut feeling. And the numbers weren't a big part of what they were doing on a daily basis to process what their team was about. These guys are so young. That's all they've known. So from the time they really first started getting to a place where they're starting to ascend a little bit on an NBA bench, that's all they've known. This has been around long enough that it has completely influenced the way that these particular group of guys analyze their teams. So you didn't have to sell any these guys on it. They already utilized it prior to becoming head coaches. And in a lot of ways, that's all they know. So I think that they are more willing to look at that stuff. I think sometimes it can be overused, but there's no question. It has a major bearing. And JJ Redick will be another guy you can throw into the mix.

Also, by the way, really young coach, recently retired coach. You talk about a guy that's diving into the analytics. I mean, it's like such a big part of what he was doing when he was in media and what he's as a player So he just rolled that right into now the way that he views his team as well. There's so many coaches in the league now that that's just par for the course. That's the way they've always done it because they're so young and it's influenced the way they coach. And I think there is some really good stuff that comes out of that as a result. Different combinations that you didn't know were that good because in the past, there wasn't enough data to back that up. But now, even a smaller sample size, you go, wow, that's interesting. Maybe I'll give that group a little bit more run. If there's something to that, you're going to find out.

Yeah, the Celtic said that Walsh, eye test-wise, looked like he was playing really well. But there were lineups that were just better when he wasn't in them, right? And they started gravitating toward this Hauser lineup. And if you look at their best five-man lineups, Hauser is usually in the best one. I don't know. There might be the spacing he does offensively. He's an underrated defender, too. But for whatever reason, he's the one that fits. You mentioned JJ, because I think JJ probably has the most frustrating team to coach out of all these teams because you have these It's offense-only stars. You don't know when they're going to guard anybody. They don't really fit together. But he figured out, I just got to play Rui as much as possible, and I got to start moving away from Aiton. That's what's happened with them in the last week. They're moving Aiton You can see it happening in real-time. He's getting shoved out. They're going with Rui, with Luca, with LeBron, and that shit. And Mark is smart, and they'll try to figure out who that fifth spot is. I'm sure there's a bunch of advanced stuff they're looking at.

This is actually when we have these four together, this is probably our best chance. And Rui has been the secret sauce for them. One thing I had before we get to the power pole, and we say this every year, but I feel like it matters more than ever. I'm thinking about a lot this year, the difference between being a good regular season team and being a good playoff team. Because when we go into this power pole, there's some teams I don't know where to put because obviously in April and May, I'm going to trust them more than some of the teams that are in the power pole. And there's some regular season teams, like a team like Toronto. If you have during the regular season, that's great. In a playoff series, I'd probably feel pretty good about going against them. But game to game, week to week, road trips, you want a deeper team. Maybe the Celtics could be like that because their bench has been good. I don't know. But do you feel like this is a more pronounced chasm than ever between what do I trust when I'm watching here in the regular season versus in the playoff, am I just going to feel differently about this team?

Completely, because I think some of the teams that have been great stories and they've surprised us, and it's been great. It's been refreshing because it gives you more teams to talk about, which is great for us. Give me more to dive into. Toronto, Phoenix, teams like that, being where they're at, that's great. They surprised us. But individually, when you start looking at some of these teams, and it's going to be interesting because I think we're going to talk about the power pole. Some of these teams, obviously, we know there's several of these teams at the very top. We know that, okay, these teams legitimately can make a deep run, go all the way. Who Then there's going to be that next group where you're trying to analyze, picturing them having to win multiple playoff series or even win one playoff series. And you start thinking about matchups. And now all of a sudden, some of these teams, you realize, I don't know if they're going to be able to win four times against some of those teams because there's no track record there. So there's an uncertainty about how some of these teams are going to handle that situation.

I mean, even a team like Detroit, as great as they've been, truth is, they haven't won a playoff series. And to win a playoff series is a lot different than battling the Knicks, giving them all they could handle last year. That's a lot different than finishing off those games winning four times against a really good team. It's different. Now, look, they're not going to have to play a top-tier team in the first round. So you would think home court advantage, Detroit should be okay. Now, they'll say, Whoa, there you go. Now, they've got a playoff series went under their belt. That make things a lot different. I'm talking about beating teams that can come close to looking you in the eye. That's different. Winning four times against them when you've got no experience in doing that collectively and you've got a bunch of young guys, you don't know how certain guys are going to react when they get into that situation. And guys that are giving you that little burst and punch now and give a nice to help you, well, it's a fine line between those same players having a 30 % shooting series.

And now it's really tough, man. Those minutes that were so great in regular season, it's harder now with particular groups because certain guys are really struggling in the playoffs for a variety of reasons. So that's why I think there is a lot of uncertainty with that second tier of teams that are trying to crack through and make us believe they could be a conference finalist or a finalist. That next group beyond the top two or three, that's when it gets a lot more interesting in this conversation.

Well, there's even a couple of teams in that 1B group where I watched... The Celtics had a really interesting game against the Pistons last week. One of the things that was happening was they were just like, We're just not going to guard Thompson. Good luck. Ironically, that's also happening in some of the Houston games where teams are going, Yeah, we're just like, No, good luck. We're going to let him go. And in a playoff series, when you're playing the same team seven games, that's the stuff that starts pulsating. Detroit in the Celtic game found something against Garza. They just started attacking him. Not so coincidentally, all of a sudden, Mario Williams is in the Celtic rotation. Garza didn't play last night. Maybe he was hurt. I don't know. But it was one of those moments where it was like, Shit, I don't know if we can play Garza in the playoff here because Detroit's just feasting on him in these five minutes. And that's stuff you tuck away for later. The other thing is When I think about teams like the Knicks, Minnesota, whoever, if you have a top eight player, you're on my I'm taking you seriously list, no matter how you're looking over this stretch.

I do want to see you put together one nice 15 to 20 game stretch, though, during the season, which I think we'll talk about the Clippers in a second. But the Clippers going 15 and 3 in 18 games is meaningful.

No kidding.

They reclaimed their corners.

Still amazed at the number of conversations that I'm having here over the last couple of weeks, whether in the industry or outside the industry, just like basketball fans that are friends of ours. They're just not remotely convinced that you better take notice. Because they're not just winning. When you go, whatever they were, 6: 21 at the start, I guess maybe people just completely think, I don't have to watch the Clippers anymore the rest of the year. We do. It's our job. So you're still paying attention. They start winning some games. You're like, Okay, that's interesting. 15 and 3, 18 games in basically a 5 to 6 week period of time when their defensive numbers have shifted to this extent is something you have to pay attention to. They have held teams in In that 18-game stretch, 11 times to 105 points or less. 105 in today's NBA is like 90 when I played. That's what it feels like. If you hold a team under 110 points, it's like, wow, they really got after it tonight. They just did it 11 times in the last 18 games. It reminds me of what they were doing last year defensively when I called a few of their games, and I was so impressed with their ability to pressure the ball all over the floor and their length and their quickness to recover for each other.

Of course, and Kawhi was healthy most of that time. They're back to playing that level defense, and they're getting incredible offensive years out of their two best players. How can you not notice? It's also like a string of wins that they're getting. These are some good teams that they've knocked off. Listen, I've got one eye on them at all times now. This Ascension, and you think about what I'm talking about, they've only gotten to 10th. I mean, that's how far they were buried You went 15 out of 18 and you're still 10th.

That's where they were. They're still 13 to 1 to win the division. Yeah, their last 18, they're plus 8. 9 per 100. They're fourth in the week. But you mentioned Kawhi. The Last 18, he missed two. He played 16. He's averaging 32 in the games that he played, and he's 51, 43, 92. It looks like Kawhi. I mean, eye test-wise, this is 2017 Kauai, it looks like. Anyway, we'll take a break, then we're going to go through the power pole because we got a lot of stuff to cover. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. It's the last call for football on FanDuel. It makes me so sad. One final Sunday, one last kickoff, the final chance to place your bets before the NFL season closes its tab. I'm sad. If you're a new customer, bet $5, get $200 in bonus bets. If you win, make it count because after the Super Bowl, the season's over and football is officially done. I'm still Last call for football and Fandil, an official sportsbook partner of Super Bowl 60. Visit fandil. Com/bs to get started. Must be 21 plus in President Select States or 18 plus in President DC, Kentucky or Wyoming.

First online No money wage or only $5 for a deposit required. Bonus issued as non-retrieable bonus bet rates expire seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook. Fandil. Com. Game problem? Call 1-800. Gamble or visit rg-help. Com. Call 1-888-789-777. Com. 7 or visit ccpg. Org/chat in Connecticut. All right, so I separate it in groups. We'll just rip through this group. I want to talk about one team, and if there's a team in this group you're excited about, flag it after. All right. Number 30 is Washington. They have the worst net rate. They're minus 11, one and nine in their last 10. I think they've settled into, We want to stink. We want to get top four pick. Number 29, I have Milwaukee. This is no Giannis Milwaukee. He's not playing for another six weeks. I actually think their 2 through 12 is the worst 2 through 12 in the league? I want to get your take on that. I don't think any other team in the league would trade their 2 through 12 for Milwaukee's 2 through 12.

I think for that particular question, if I really wanted to just give you definitive answer, I would probably need to right now pull up 2-12 on four or five different things. But my point is this, you're not crazy for throwing that into the conversation. Look at the roster. It's It's brutal. You look at what's happening to them now. When you combine the roster with now the level, what they're dealing with psychologically not having him, and the one differentiating factor for your team every night is having that force and not having that combined with that roster, I think you probably have put them appropriately where they belong as long as he's out.

The biggest wrinkle with them is they get the worst of the first pick between them in New Orleans. So in a weird way, if the season goes south and they end up being one of the eight worst teams, it's not the worst thing in the world. What's killed them is I don't think they could trade Giannis. Zack did a thing on his podcast yesterday with Mo about, is this actually still okay that they could trade Giannis or did this make this impossible and not really landing either way? I'm more in the, I don't know who's trading for him with all this stuff you'd have to give up not knowing if he's going to even be back in April. Plus, he's had this injury multiple times. To me, it's a complete stay away, I'll revisit in the summer, show me you're healthy. I can't see anyone doing that. Do you agree with that?

First of all, that would be the approach I would take. I'm not saying I wouldn't want to try to acquire Yannis Atakoumbo, but with the number of times now that he's been dealing with this injury and me needing to see this motivated Yannis in the summer, healthy Yannis in the summer. Yes, I think there are teams that you do what you have to to make a run in him. I agree with the uncertainty right now of when you're going to see him again at full strength and the possibility because it's going to be tight then with the playoffs. Is he going to be coming back, forcing himself onto the court because he wants to make a run with some team? And does that mean he ends up reinjuring himself in the playoffs anyway, and you've given up a ton. Now, if you got more of a longer term view and it's not just about trying to get it done this year, I don't know, maybe you do it anyway because he's just so intriguing because of how dominant he is and I think how highly motivated he would be with a change of scenery and what that could do to reinvigorate him.

I would still think about it.

I'm going to thought bubble this for you. Would you trade for anybody about to hit their mid-30s who is a big guy with a lot of miles in them with all the evidence that we've seen at this point? Would you give up the farm? What are the success stories here? Even KG, when the Celtics got him in '08, he's probably 31, he broke down a year later. Chris Webber, Dwight Howard broke down a bunch of times. Shaq, he started to have the injuries in the mid 2000s. I would just get really nervous about trading for big guys with Miles. And there's been a couple of outliers. And then when you go smaller and you get to the LeBron size, there's probably more success. But the taller guys, I don't know. I'd be really nervous to do it. To me, the Yannis, if they were like, Hey, no, he's going to be back in late March. You should trade for him. It's like somebody offering you the nicest car ever. And it's like, it was in the shop for the seventh time, but it's going to be great. The mechanic said he fixed this one thing we have.

You should get it. It'll be awesome.

I'm staying in that garage. I'm looking at that car for a long time.

Man, this is a nice car. How fast does it go?

The only thing they're not going to let you do is test drive it, though. That's the problem. You got to buy as is. It's an as is contract.

They're showing you clips of the 2021 race that it won. It was going 220 miles an hour. It beat all these guys.

Meanwhile, you're on the side googling Carfax, trying to get that report. Make sure there wasn't an accident. The commercial with the cute fox that we see all the time. I'm going to go into that website. That's a good point, but I'm telling you, I'd be looking at that car for a while, trying to I'm going to go by by Atlanta. I'm going to sleep on that decision.

Yeah, if you're Atlanta, you've never been in a race.

That's the thing.

You're like, All right, maybe this is our one chance to get them. Okay. Number 28, Brooklyn. Number 27, Sacramento. They both basically 12 wins. Number 26, Indiana, who I think is a noble 11-36 team. Man. I actually think they play hard and give a shit, and they just don't have enough talent, sadly.

Has any player, I don't know, earned more respect on an 11-win team than Pascal Siakam?

Right.

Every night, and I watch the Pacers a lot just because... I don't know, the guys on that team I'm interested in, so I watch the Pacers a good amount.

I like them, too.

I enjoy them. I love watching Siakam play. I'm watching this guy, and if you had no idea when you turn on to watch the game, you had no idea what the record was, what's going on. You're just watching this guy that looks exactly like he did when he was playing for the Toronto when they won a championship, exactly like he did last year, in the last two years with Indiana, last year, going to the finals. You don't know there's any difference in his demeanor, approach, effort, intensity, leadership, all of that stuff. It's led to 11 wins. That's how decimated they've been. But I've got a lot of respect for the way he's carried himself this season.

Mcdonald's another one, Nemhardt. There's guys on that team that are still carrying themselves like they did last spring. At some point, they're going to have to take Pascal for a nice steak and explain to him that his calf needs some maintenance, and he might need to take 4-5 weeks off. That the trainer was mildly concerned. It's just for the safety of everybody, we're just going to have to sit you for a little bit and get you ready for next year. We're almost there with the Pacers because this This will be a miracle. You throw away one year, you get Halliburton back next year, and you could potentially get a top five pick. Here's the thing.

Here's the one thing I'll say about them. You think about how quickly they immediately reemerge on the scene of relevant teams as soon as they get Halliburton back, okay? They desperately need a five. And there's a list of them. There's eight or nine of them that are out there. Some are more interesting than others. I don't think you can get, but there's a list out there, and you can pull it up just about anywhere, the number of centers that are at least their names come up. Some I think it's absolutely pipe dream. You're never going to get them. Some I wouldn't want. And then there's a few and you go, man, if you can add that with giving up what they would have to give up to get it. And now next year, you go in with see Yakum and Halliburton and a five that fits your style. Man, that's something I think that they're going to look hard at. And I'll be very surprised, actually, if they don't make a move before the trading deadline to try to acquire one of those centers.

So you think they would put their number one pick on the table?

I don't know if they'd put their number one pick. I think there's internal conversations that are probably taking place because that's beauty in the eye of the beholder. If you think that, for instance, those top three picks, which a lot of people are talking about, are Absolute, Can't, Misses, the Bonsa, Peterson, Booser. If you think all three of those guys are, Man, these are franchise guys, and we're going to be in that mix, you probably don't that. If you think, Hey, man, there's a chance we don't even get into top three, and we don't know that we love it after that, even though I think it's a good draft class, and I think there's going to be even diamonds in the rough found, probably 15 through 25. It always is. Does that young player, does that serve them well? If that's going to take a few years for him to hit his stride when they were so close a year ago, as opposed to... I'm not talking about picking up a 34-year-old center.

If you can get a guy that's- We're talking about Jaron Jackson. In Memphis, it's like, We'll discuss Jaron Jackson, but we your unprotective first.

Even a guy like a lower-level, maybe a lower-caliber player than that, like a nick Claxton, like someone like that, that's young, that runs, that you don't have to run plays for, that can defend, that will fit your style and pace because he's got stamina. A guy like that, if you're talking about giving up, not the number one pick, if you're talking about giving up something else on your roster that it would be intriguing to them either because it could be a salary dump or it's a Or you do a top five protected.

We'll trade whatever, but we need top five protection or you get our next year's thing. Yeah, we'll see because what I like about them and the Celtics losing their best guys, but somehow keeping some infrastructure, what they had last year, the Celtics did it more successfully. But when you watch Indiana, they don't stink. They might be overmatched some nights, but they do play like they did last year. So I have them 26. New Orleans, I have 25. They're 12 and 36. All these teams have 12 or 11 wins that we just rattled off. I want to flag New Orleans really quickly, though, because I think they're a sneaky important Trade Machine team. Not just because Zion, I think every team in the week probably has had a Zion meeting at this point. Let's just do a one hour. Bob is going to do a Zion presentation for us. We're going to go through the pros and cons. They're all doing it. Murphy, they've tried to make it seem like they wouldn't trade him. I refuse to believe that. I think they're playing it smartly. But if somebody's going to give them the Bayes & Bridges offer, it would be irresponsible not to do it.

But then they have Missy at 3. 3. They have Sadiq Bay at 6'1 and 6'4 the next two years. They have Alvarado at 4-5. They have Looney at 8 expiring. They have some fun little levers to push for contenders. I look like Alvarado. There's five teams that he would just be fun on in the But you put him on the pistons and he would just be like, I am rolling up my sleeves. Who are we fighting? I don't know what they're going to do, but I feel like we'll be hearing from them.

And Misi is also one of those guys on that shortlist of centers that would be intriguing for Indiana. I think it would help. Especially with Derek Queen there, he obviously becomes completely expendable in that situation. Here's the thing. I agree with you what you said about Trey Murphy. I mean, look, I love him, but I don't know. They want to make it seem like there's nothing that you can offer me that would get him. I don't know if I believe that. I know this. When it comes to Zion, it seemed like the stuff they put out there is like, No, we're committed to Zion. I don't know that I would be willing to give up anything to get him. I'd be far too concerned to give up a lot of stuff of value for Zion Williamson with his track record. The part of his game that drives me nuts because he's such a unique force and talent, entertaining as well, how does a guy get six rebounds a game?

I mean, explain. This. This is one of my corners. How do you get two rebounds a quarter?

How do you consist in getting three rebounds a game when you're built like that with that athleticism? There's one reason and one reason only. You don't go often enough. It's that simple. It's that simple. For Zion Williamson, particularly, look at his career. He had 2. 7 offensive rebounds his first two seasons in the league. Obviously, not a ton of games, but he's never been since then, like over 2. 5. To me, that's a guy that should three and a half to four offensive rebounds a game. If you watch him play, the reason it doesn't happen, Zion's that guy that if there's a shot by somebody else and he happens to be anywhere from the third hash up the lane to the foul line, you're 12 to 15 feet from the rim. Very rarely does Zion Williamson go. He starts immediately backpedaling. It just tell you it's a mentality. Because the mentality is, if I go and don't get it, damn, that's a long run to the other end of the floor. And that's the impression I get. As talented as he is and as just unique in what he can do and how difficult he is to deal with when he's healthy and playing right, that has always bothered me.

I've never understood. I think he is one of the most underachieving rebounders in the NBA. And it doesn't make sense to me because there's no way that guy should not be getting a ton of double-digit rebounds games. You made double-digit rebounds games? Think about this. Double-digit rebounds game. Now, last two, he's had them, 10 and 11 against San Antonio on Memphis. You have to go back to October 24th to find his last 10 Rebound game. That's incredible to me. When you look at a guy like Josh Hart, right? It's like that doesn't make any sense. And so it's just like that combined with the injury history, I'm just like, I don't know if I want any part of it.

You also made the case why you would want a part of it if you felt like you had a good team with a good coach and a good infrastructure, and you could shove him in the correct directions. That's how you talk yourself into this.

I got news for you. You could put him on any team in history with whatever direction you want. And if that guy doesn't want to run to the rim from 12 feet when someone takes a corner three, he ain't never going to. That's not about infrastructure and leadership in a locker room and accountability. That guy either wants to or he doesn't. And he has now played 240, I don't believe it, actually, 246 games in six years. It's incredible. He's got 246 games under his belt. And I don't recall really- So you're going with that.

He is who he is. Interesting. Well, if you cut them on mixtape of V. J. Edgecom and Hugo González being in the corner, seeing somebody about to shoot and veering toward the rim at full speed to just see if they can get a hand on anything, maybe the light bulb would click for them. Hey, you could also do this. Watch how these guys just move because somebody else was shooting. They might be able to dunk it or get a rebut and tip it. Listen, I would- The ship has sailed, do you think?

I pray for that day because of how much I've enjoyed watching Zion Williamson play when he's healthy. It's just a long track record of that one particular thing. You can be a real difference maker on the glass. It's a majorly important quality to bring, to finish finishing off defensive possessions, to giving your team extra possessions on a given night. They're so critical to do those things on nights when maybe you don't shoot well. For him, I'm also thinking, you get another two, three offensive rebound some nights. That's a guaranteed, probably with his quickness off his feet. That's another four to six points. Plus, some of those might be and ones. Just from your own production, you could take your scoring average up five points if you just wanted to go more. That's my big I'm concerned with Zion. His name's always going to come up because he's so intriguing. I just think we're six years in. I think when you're on a team that's got the worst record in the NBA and you've been out a lot again this year and the rebounding numbers are what they are, I think we add all that up.

I don't No, I don't know. I don't know if I did.

The case you just made is my case for why I'm not crazy about Jaron Jackson. He's 5. 7 rebounding game.

You're 100% right. You can't get to a quarter? I've said that on the air when I called Memphis Games. Now, I haven't called a New Orleans game this year for obvious reasons. But we did call a Memphis game, and it's the same thing. I think the same way. Why are his rebounding numbers not better? Now, the one thing, though, I will say this. He does do this, and this could cost him maybe some defensive rebounds.

Challenging.

Exactly right. When you're last line of defense and you're trying to get most things at the rim, you are bypassing opportunities to rebound by doing that.

Yeah, that's fair.

But here's the thing. A guy like Jaron Jackson and Zion, and I'm not sure if I watch the New Orleans game tomorrow night, does Zion on the inside slot every opponent's free throw? Is Jaron Jackson. How does that not free a game?

Westbrook figured that out 12 years ago.

Right there, you're halfway to their current total. You know what I mean? It's like, how does that not translate to... So I agree. Jaron Jackson has always scratch my head. But the all-around game, the all-around amount of energy he's expending defensively, I think I'll give him a little bit more of a pass than Zion.

You know what I would say, Tim Legler? Some guys are just good at rebounding. Even when you play pickup or when you played in high school or in your case, college in the pros, some guys just have a knack for it. Josh Hart, he's 6'3. He just goes and gets rebounds. He knows where they're going to go. Derek White's really good at it. Weirdly, as a guard, just can study the patterns. He has good instincts for it. Some guys just suck at it. Finishing the Dregs, Utah, 24, and Memphis, 23 at 18 and I just don't think it's going to happen for them. And we can move to the next group. This group is a one-team group. It's called Panic Time. And I put Orlando in here at 22. Even though they have a winning record, Their net rating is minus 0. 6. Their last 25 games, legs, they're 11 and 14. They're 25th in net rating. And I test-wise, I have a real problem with this team. We talked about, I don't want to throw Jamal Moseley under the bus, but we talked about some of the great coaches we've added. This is a team that, to me, does not look well coached.

I don't know what they're doing. I don't understand it. I think the effort comes and goes. They just seem like the ball finds the wrong person at the wrong times in the wrong spots of the game. I think they're incredibly frustrating to watch.

Here's why I don't know if I can go with the coaching thing for this reason. Last This year, and again, I called an Orlando game this year, to see if a person is definitely different for me as an analyst. I pick up on a lot of stuff that I can't see when I'm watching on TV at home. But look, they just lost four straight games by a total of 75 points, I believe. Wagner's out again. Him and Cahro barely have had any chance to establish rhythm. But here's why the coaching thing would be bothersome to me if that were true, because last year, I had as much respect for The way that that team competed and defended is anybody in the lead. When I watched the Magic play, and I watched them, and I called games where they only had one of their stars, and they're going up against teams that were top five teams in the NBA, and they're in position to win these games, and in some cases did. One particular stands out when they broke, Cleveland had that long winning streak midseason, like 15 games, and they beat them in Cleveland on a Sunday ABC game.

That was a good game. I remember that one.

Oh, it It was an incredible game. Their want to was so impressive. When I see that in a team, I'm going to go ahead in most times and I'm going to give the coach credit in that situation. Now, Some of it, maybe just internally, certain guys just play hard. They just show up, play out great. You got the right guys in your building. But we can't just dismiss that if a team is playing hard. If we're going to beat up a coach when the team doesn't look like they're playing hard, if they are playing hard, I'm always going to give credit to the coach. He's He's establishing some culture in there. His message is resonating with these guys. To a certain extent, they're buying in for them to play that hard a year ago.

But can that fade away, though?

I mean, it can, but it would be surprising to do that from one year to the next when they've had their top guys have missed as much time as they have. It's almost like a built-in reason why it's a struggle some nights. But look, when you lose four games the way they just did, and look, to Memphis, Charlotte right now who could put up numbers on you, and Cleveland could put up numbers. That's not...

Those aren't hard- Clemen's coming around.

But it's a tough stretch, man. Three of those four were at home, and you're not really in the game in the last six minutes.

It's alarming. That's why I brought it up and put them in 22.

I hear you. You're right.

The only thing I could say for- I think credit time is a good place to put them.

I think that's a good way to sum it up. They put it this way. It's go time. If you're going to hit another gear, it's going to have to start now.

But what's funny is I thought that was going to be a week and a half ago. I was looking at their schedule. They were, I don't know, 23 and 18 or something. It was like, okay, if we're going to hear from this team, it's going to start right around now. And it went the other way. Their best five is still plus 18 per 100, I guess, is the one good thing about them, but they're almost like a take off the league past team for me. I don't want them on a TV anymore. I don't like watching them. It make me mad. All right, next category, four teams, the play in dreamers, starting Dallas, 19 and 27. I feel like they're better than 19 and 27, especially with the injury like they've had. But on the right night, if you catch them, I feel like they can hang with just about anybody. I wanted to mention Max Christie. I think has officially reached... You're insulting him if you don't mention him when you recap the Luka trade and you just say Luka for AD. I think Christie has become a legitimate asset. He's 22. He's put together two months now where he's 16 a game and like 45% from He can handle the ball.

I thought he was coming on a little for the Lakers last year, but ironically, has become a bigger asset for them than Anthony Davis. So just wanted to mention that.

That's the perfect context and perspective to put him in because you're 100% right. He was not even mentioned when that trade went down.

It was like a set of steak knives.

No doubt. I knew how much JJ valued him because we had had conversations about him. That was tough for him to part with him. But there was just so much focus on, arguably, is this the worst trade in the history of team sports? Yeah. He's going to get lost in all of that conversation, particularly AD went down right away. And look, it takes, at the time, like a role player, a little bit longer even to get comfortable when a trade like that happens because your touches are infrequent, your shots, you're a little bit feeling things out. And now you look at the way this guy is playing now, and every night now you're expecting His floor now is a double-digit scoring night. And then his average game is 16, and then his ceiling is now in the 20s.

And he fits with Flag, which is the only thing that really, really matters here. He actually makes sense on a basketball court with Cooper Flag, which is all you're trying to find out, Christie. Very, very true.

And you're right, by the way, they're better than their record, I think, a lot of it being this. If Christie's playing this well from the very beginning, if Cooper Flag didn't have to take some time at They're 15 years old to try to figure out the league a little bit, they would be closer to 500 than they are right now. It's been a great story, and they play hard as hell every night.

Yeah, they're annoying to play. You can just see it. You could see the other teams. The thing with Flag, he's not shooting the three well at all. I think he's 28%. But everything else, when you consider how young he is and he's at the same age Kobe was when Kobe came in, or maybe he's six months older than Kobe, KG when KG came in, LeBron when LeBron came in, you know this is the floor, and it's a really good floor. This is the worst he's ever going to be right now.

That's a great point. And that's why I look. I use the expression can't miss with him coming out, and I felt this way before he got to Duke, I'm like, no, no, this guy, because he's got a nasty competitive edge to him, even though he's got that little boy smile on his face, he has a meanness to him and a toughness for being challenged for the last five years on the high profile youth circuit into Duke. He was challenged, and every night he took to court, people were coming for him, and he just wanted all of it. So you knew, but man, is he better with the mid-range pull-ups and push shots in that 10-foot area, these really difficult shots, and they go to him to decide games. It's incredible, really, what he's been able to do in the fourth quarter of close games. So, man, how much better will this guy be even in two months? It's incredible.

Quick question. So they're 19 and 27. If they had Kyrie this whole year from game one, what's their record? How many wins is he worth, you think?

They're definitely over 500.

Honestly, I think they're like 30 and 16. I think he would have swung like 12 games.

Yeah. I mean, look, so you're talking about 11 more wins than they have right now? Yeah. I mean, look, Kyrie is that great. But again, you're saying if he ever got hurt, he breaks in?

The end of the game stuff, he would have brings in. Yeah, I'm just saying healthy Kyrie from game one with this exact roster. I just think he's exactly what they need. That's why I'm hoping he comes back, because if you put him in with everything I'm watching, I'm interested in this thing.

I'd probably take it as far as flipping the numbers, 19 to 27.

27, 19. 27 to 19.

That's probably where I would go.

Dallas, 21. I have Atlanta at 20. I don't want to talk about them. I can't quit them. Every time I'm out, they have some fun game. Forget it. 19, Portland. This is interesting. So they're 23 and 24. Their last 15, they're 10 and 5, where they beat Houston twice, San Antonio, the Lakers, and Atlanta. They had this crazy buildup situation to start the year. Plus, Scoot-Henerson got hurt. Holladay got hurt like three weeks in. I have no idea how they're 500. And I don't really know what I would do if I was their GM, because you could argue they should be a seller. You could also argue they say... I got an email from a reader, a listener named Dylan, who said, Ja to Portland, why not? Why not Scoot and expirings? Which they have the expirings. Scoot, Thibault and Rob Williams for jaw. Why Why not? And I was reading the email going, Yeah, why not? Why not roll the dice? See what you have. Maybe you're a buyer. You could also go the other way and start selling off some players and trying to take. What would you do?

I mean, that sounds a little bit low for John Moran, but at the At the same time, his market value has taken- Nobody wants them. Plunge. And that's just like everything you're hearing is like it's really becoming absolutely buyer's market. Because here's the thing, even if you think, Man, it might be might not have to give up that much to get him. And you come to terms of, We're not giving up anything we really want to get Ja Morant. You then have to think about incorporating him into what you have going on with the players you do like. And what does that look like? That's a whole other conversation, where with some of these guys, maybe it's injuries, but it's not like that. How's he going to fit with these guys? How hard is he to coach? All of that stuff. Some guys are just like, Injuries. Do we roll the dice on him?

Is he going to like that? It's obvious team and not his and things like that.

Exactly. And look, if you're Portland now, some part of me would think, what have you got to lose?

That's how I felt. On the one hand, there's a lot of red flags, and it's, as you said, a buyer's market for Ja. On the other hand, he's 26. You have a chance to get a guy who three years ago would have been number seven in my trade value column. You're just stealing him. And he hasn't... It seems like relatively healthy. He keeps having these small injuries. Why not? I don't know. I'd think about it.

There's probably two or three teams in the league that I would put in a category of... I mean, come on, what the hell have you got to lose? When you really look at who they have and what ultimately their ceiling is, you look at their roster, Portland's, and it has been incredible. But this is... I mean, obvious is not going to average 32 next year. You know what I mean? He's playing great. And I actually think the guy's got a great case to be an All-Star with what he's done in there and how well they've played for the last month.

He's definitely an All-Star for me. He's got to be.

But it's funny. I'm always constantly looking at how people view it. And I've put mine out there on the All City podcast. I put my reserves out there, and I gave him a spot But if you look around at where people are speculating, it's not like it has a guarantee. I think he's pretty close. 26 and seven- Because nobody watches Portland.

The other job team is number 18 on my list, the Chicago Bulls, who are 23 and 23 three. The only reason I mentioned them is they have expirings they could put together. Maybe they could put Kobe White in it. But their style of play, I actually would think would be pretty fun for him. It's basically balls to the wall. They're going up and The ball is constantly moving. People are just attack, attack, attack. Billy Donovan. I like that one a lot, too. I don't mind that one.

No, I really like that one because, again, there are limitations on their roster that are not going to change. You know what I mean? It's not like they've got that young guy that was a top five pick in the last couple of years that isn't ready now. But you're like, Man, this is what we're going to be building around, this franchise player. Now you're adding Ja to that? No, I wouldn't do that. That they don't have that. So that team has a finite ceiling. And so Ja Morant? Yeah. Now, would Billy Donovan want that? I don't know. We don't know if he'd want to sign up for that.

Does he want to go 40 and 42 for the next nine years? Or at some point, I just want to take a swing somewhere.

Hey, listen, at least, and I was there the other night, I was in the building for the Derrick Rose game when they were tired as yours. I'm thinking to myself, if somebody's going to replicate some of those highlights. That's the guy. That's the guy.

All right, one more break, and then we're going to do the rest of the list. Now it's time for today's With The Assist segment presented by State Farm. In basketball, the best players don't just go it alone. They lean on teammates, coaches, even fans, to push them to be better. We've seen some pretty iconic assists over the years. As a Celtics fan, probably the assist team I was the most afraid of was Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul Jabbar in the '80s, especially Magic got better and better. Kareem got older and older. They had a little flip. When Magic came in the league, Kareem was probably the best player in the league or one of the best two or three. Then by the time we got to the mid '80s, Kareem was older. Magic was becoming one of the two or three best players in the league, but they still figured out how to work together. 1985 Finals, famously, Kareem just took over the Finals, killed the Celtics, wins the finals MVP 14 years after the first time he won. Two years later, they win again. Guess who wins? Magic Johnson. Like basketball, life is easier with great assists, like the way those two guys helped each other.

State Farm is here to dish one your way. They're not just an insurance company. They're a teammate who's on your bench ready to listen, assist, and help you get the right coverage when it matters most. State Farm with the I missed. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. The Fork and the Roters, number 17, Golden State, number 16, Miami. I would love to punt on talking about either of those teams, if that's okay.

I'm totally fine with that. I talk- Okay, great. I don't know.

Not to say about that.

Yeah, I'm good with that.

Number 15, I have not had enough to say. This group is called the Wild Card. The Charlotte Hornets. Now, 19 and 28. In their last 25, they're 13 and 12. They're best four guys with Diabate, plus 26 2. 5 per 100. It's been exciting to watch. Zack Lo and I have been fighting about them since December. I had him on my podcast. We did League Pass rankings. I had them sixth. He mocked me. He made fun of me. He said, What are you thinking? I'm I'm buying whatever's going on there. I like that team. Lamelo came back and started to look like LaMelo. Then this Diabate piece. Now this team, they have some real wins. They went on the West Coast, and they had one of those West Coast trips where it was like, wow, they could go 07. This could be a disaster. Fought through it, put a couple of wins up. Their only stinker was a game you did last week. You probably saw their worst game of the last couple of weeks, unfortunately. But give me your Charlotte Well, that's obviously where I was going to go first.

I'm the same. They're my guilty pleasure, bad team. That's the way I describe them. And they started to become a little bit more than bad team. But I like watching them. They were fun. So here you go. They're on our national TV schedule.

This is it. Charlotte party.

Somebody asked me when... Somebody asked me walking in the building, Were you here last year to call a game? I said, The last time I was in this building, I think I was guarding Del Curry. I said, So I I don't know. We haven't been here. Actually, ironically, they announced that night at the game that Del Curry is going to have his Jersey retired, which is a very, very cool thing. So here we go. I'm excited. We all were, Green, myself, Richard. We sit down, ready to do the game. We did a feature with Con Knippel before the game. We broke down some of his off-ball movements and stuff. It was really exciting. And then they scored 32 points in the first half. And I think LaMelo was one for 15 in the game, 0 for 10 from the three.

They just stunk.

Now look, they had a horrible night, but at the same time, it's like, Okay, you didn't really show me anything. I don't think it had anything to do with national TV being in the building. I just don't think that's going to affect guys that much or anything like that.

I don't know. I think that was a little bit. That was like their biggest game of the year, and they stunk. Maybe a little. They haven't looked like that for two months. That was easily the worst game they played.

During the coaches interview, Charles Lee walks out of the room, and the last thing he said as he was walking out of the room because we were like... He basically turned us and was Man, I hope these guys are ready for it. It was a big night. It turns out they weren't. So I've obviously been watching the last three since, and they're averaging like 125 a game in the last three games, which is what they were doing to everybody prior to that. Their wins. They have this most... The strangest list of strong resume wins over the last month, right? Smoked Oklahoma City in Oklahoma City. Killed them. Beat the Lakers pretty easily. And all of a sudden, you're looking at this team, you're like, Man, this team is like, You better be ready to guard them. Yeah. Look, I'm with you. I'm with you. I'll give them credit. They had that game, and they turned right around and played three great games and put up numbers. That told me more about them than the one bad game that we called.

There's an eye-test thing with them. The guys make sense together when you're watching it. I mean, a knipple makes sense with anybody. I just think he would fit in with any lineup. But I also like Miller. I think Bridges has been good this year. Lamelo is the one I could never get there with. I talked to Ed Kahn on the podcast a couple of weeks ago and was just saying, this is the most fun I've had watching him. There's an arrogance in a good way about him sometimes, especially at the end of games. I used to say this long time ago about Carmelo, where he wasn't the best player in the league or one of the best players, but when he played LeBron and Wade, he thought he was on their level. Sometimes you need that. Paul pierce was like that for Boston. He was like, he thought he was as good those guys, and that's all that matters. I think when LaMelo goes against these teams, he's like, Finally, my peers, Shay Gilgish Alexander. Meanwhile, LaMelo has never been even in round one of the playoffs, but he thinks that. I think there's an energy and a confidence with them offensively.

Well, yeah. The thing is, even that night, by the way, if I'm given full disclosure, that was the best individual big man defensive game I've seen all year that Mowbley played in that game. They still ended up getting it within six in the fourth quarter.

Yeah, I thought they were going to come back.

Yeah, despite how poorly they played, give them some credit, they were in the game. It was just one of the lowest scoring games you're going to see all year. Mowbley was unbelievable in the game, contributed to their offensive woes. But like I said, I care more about what they've done since then than just one night where they didn't play well.

Would you do anything if you were them? We got The Trade Dead line coming up, and they have a slew of picks and some good ones. They Golden State's pick this year, I think. They have a top two from Dallas, top two protected in 27 from Dallas. They have things to trade. I mean, the smart world would be like, Let's just have a good time. Enjoy this. Maybe we'll make the play in. But then I look around the east and you think like, maybe they could just move around the edges there and grab somebody on a cheap price, some veteran shooter, like some stretch four that can guard some people. There's things they They do.

Yeah, they do. Even as well as they played as fun as they are, they're still, obviously, because they've got 11 players, 23 and under. There's a maturity thing with them sometimes. So you go, Okay, well, that'll just come with time, maybe. But maybe we can expedite that by bringing in the right piece, a guy that's got a little bit more seasonal on them that's maybe in his upper 20s that can bring that to this group. I would be looking if I were them. Yeah, I would be.

I'm glad we agree. Next group is the Enigma. This is one team, the Philadelphia 76ers who are 24 and 21. And on Thursday night, they beat Houston in overtime. And it was the most impressive Eastern team performance I saw all season. The Embiid was great. I thought Houston played well, and the size and speed of Philadelphia was alarming. On my thread with Sal and house and Hinch, where we always talk about NBA Futures, I was like, Do we have to start thinking about Sixers East Futures? Because it was still pretty good price. Then all of them were like, Come on, Embiid is going to get hurt. That's where we landed, where it's like, We can't trust this because we don't trust Embiid. Meanwhile, Embiid in his last 14 is 29 and 8. But then you watched them on the Knicks on Saturday. Did you do that game or did you do the other game?

I didn't do the.

You didn't do it? Okay. So Embiid, in that game, and you saw the weakness they have as those energy. The Knicks are like a pain in the ass. They rebound, they crash the boards. And that's, I think, what could sink the Sixers in the series. I don't really understand the Embiid thing right now because when you watch him, it only seems like one of his legs work. He only occasionally has explosiveness, but he's getting all the shots that he wants, and he seems rather... He'll fall down once a game and you think the season's over and then he gets up. I don't really understand it, but it's way better than I thought where we were in October when we were thinking this was like, Andrew Find them. So at least that's the win. What do you see from Philly? How high is your ceiling for them in the building?

You cannot dismiss their chances to make a legitimate run at the Eastern Conference.

You can't. That's how I feel. I hate it, but I feel that way.

The week before that, I called back to back games, Philly, Cleveland. It was weird. I was there for Wednesday, Friday. It was the same matchup. And it's funny. We're talking about his jumping, his lack of explosiveness, and I've been talking about that. But to see it in person. He had an offensive rebound in that game. He got it. He was right under the rim. He got it. And go back a few years healthy and beat MVP and beat, he's probably going to gather, swing his shoulders a little bit, go off and just dunk on whoever's in front of him. He bent his knees and he went to jump. And I called it a toddler jump because I have a four-year-old, and when he was learning how to jump, when he was two, he bent his knees and he'd go to jump, but he wouldn't leave the ground at all. He was just nailed to the floor. It was the weirdest thing. He He literally tried to jump, and he only got as high as his tiptoes. And it globally blocked it, and they went the other way. And I was like, Man, man. And even on the defensive end, those incredible plays where he covers block to block to get a shot at the rim or trail a guard all the way to the rim that turned a corner on him and smacked it off the glass.

Those are rare to nonexistent now. And yet he's putting up the numbers you're talking about because his shooting touch defies everything I know about biomechanics. There's no way a dude that big should have that shooting touch. He's that talented of a shot maker. He's always going to put up numbers if he gets touches and plays minutes. So he's giving them that. Now, that other part- Can I stop you on that for one second? Yeah.

I'm trying to think of somebody else who came into the league as one thing, and 10 years later, it's a completely different thing. He comes into the league and he's just like, Oh, my God, this is one of great big man athletes we've ever seen. This looks like young Shaq almost. Like, holy shit, where's this going? And then 12 years later, he's on one leg and makes every shot he takes, it seems like, and all of them don't even hit the rim. It's like, how did this guy emerge from what I remember from the Kansas season and all that? It's just, I think, a bizarre evolution. I don't remember anything like it.

No, it's incredible. Look, I'll put it this way. It's nuts because on one hand, we're always constantly scrutinizing his injuries and all that stuff over the last few years. At the same time, I am marveling at his ability to put up those numbers when he's got that level of physical limitation and he's that far from what he was. Because some guys, Daryl That was a great example of this. I just was talking about the other night because I'm like, Derrick Rose, think about all he lost, athlet. He came back and he was actually pretty productive. He had some decent years as a totally different shooter, but he wasn't putting up those numbers. And Bede is putting up He's close to the same scoring numbers he did when he was an MVP, and he's playing 27 minutes a game. And he's doing that because he's that good. When you pair it out with the backcourt, Paul George, they've got other pieces. They just got Ubre back. They've got McCain. I don't know what's going to happen for him this year, but that's maybe for next year.

Or he's a. He's a trade piece. That McCain-Grinds combo, if they wanted to train something.

He grinds played so hard defensively. I was so impressed with him when I was in Philly. You cannot dismiss this team's chances to make a real run at the whole conference. They're going to be middling until then. They're going to be up and down. It's funny because you look up, I'm looking at their schedule. They were 24 and 21. I'm sorry, they were 16 and 11. You're like, Okay, that's pretty good. They're only gone 8 and 10 since. But they're capable in any given night of looking like, Oh, my God, how can we forget about this team? So that's where they're at.

I texted my buddy house, Size and speed. That's what they have, which I don't I don't think anyone else in the East has that combo. I don't know if it's sustainable and Embiid might get hurt tomorrow. You mentioned the limitations. I remember Duncan in probably around 2011, 12 range. One of his legs just stopped working, basically. You could see it when you went to the games. He was basically on one leg, but he was so good and his footwork was so good and he was so smart. It just didn't really matter. He just picked his spots, but one of his legs didn't work. When I watch him beat it, I'm like, One of his legs doesn't work. He can't push off it. I don't understand how he's getting to his spots. I don't understand how teams aren't using this against him, but he's making it work. I'm taking them seriously, especially because of the maxi edge comb. I think at home in a playoff series, that team is going to be a nightmare because that crowd loves those guys and there's an energy in the building. If they get anything from the beat, who knows?

All right, lingering. Lakers, Toronto, Phoenix. We've talked about all these teams. Just quickly on the Lakers, and I'm sorry for the Toronto and Phoenix fans who are probably like, Oh, you skipped over our teams. We've talked about them in the past. I don't see any scenario where the Lakers get out around one of the playoffs, and yet they're 28 and 17, and they have Luka, who's one of the best five guys in the league. And they have LeBron, who's looked pretty good lately, and they have a lineup that seems to make more sense than it did, and they might even be able to make a trade or two because they have some expirings. I don't take seriously at all because I don't think they're going to be able to get stops. But they have a way of just stealing six minutes stretches of these games where they just all of a sudden they were down eight and then they're up 10. You don't even know what happened. There's no team in the league like this. I also hate the Lakers. I'm just a free lead minute. It's my least favorite team. So I'm really against them and I'm probably not the best objective observer.

What do you see when you watch this team?

Well, I just see Their defense is so bad at times, it's hard for me to wrap my head around taking them really seriously to potentially win the West, which you would think a team with Luka and LeBron and even a healthy Austin Rees, you think they should be in that mix. Just based on those names alone, it's hard for me to get to that point because of how their defense looks for stretches of games. Having said that, the only two teams in the Western Conference that I would say, definitively now and going forward, not beating these two teams in a seven-game series are Oklahoma City and Denver. Now, would I put money on them beating San Antonio or Houston or Minnesota? I probably wouldn't want to risk. I'm not a gambler anyway, but I probably wouldn't want to risk my money on that. But would I dismiss their chances of being able to do that with Luka on your team and how good he can be in playoff series and what we've seen him do historically on nights when He's damn near one games by himself. I can't just... And look, because it's not like San Antonio is really young.

They haven't gone through any of this. Houston, I like a lot, but they haven't had as good a year as I thought they would, as consistently dominant as I thought they could be. And then Minnesota, you say the same thing about, especially the stretch they're in right now. So I'm just saying, you said there's no way you can division a scenario where they get out of the first round. I wouldn't go that far, depending on what that 4, 5, or 6, 3 matchup looked like if they get into that. But I don't think they could be Denver or Oklahoma City if they played them right out of the gate. I don't think that's going to happen. I guess conceivably, they could end up with Denver in the first round. I guess that's possible. But more likely, they get a team like Houston or they get a team like Minnesota.

Yeah, the thing that scares me about them, when they want to get eight minutes of pretty good shots, they seem to be able to do that. Lebron, who I I don't think LeBron has a first step anymore in the same way in the half-court. But coming off a rebound or coming off pace, he still can do the old LeBron, go 60 feet and you can't stay in front of him, and he's going to get a layup. Then he's obviously great in the half-court, even though I don't think he's the same player anymore. Smart, they're relying on a lot, which would make me nervous. I think they're losing Aiton once and for all. I just think the confidence in him is fading to the point that you're going to lose him as an asset pretty soon. They probably already have. So whether they can put him in a trade or whatever, I just think the ship has sailed for him with them. But to get the athleticism they're getting from LeBron at this age, It's pretty good. I don't think they'll be able to get stops, and I think they're going to lose in round one to whoever they play, but maybe I'll be wrong.

I think my strongest argument for them potentially being able to beat one of the teams I mentioned, that's why I wouldn't rule it out. Look at the night against Chicago So that was Luka to me at his absolute peak in Dallas, where he was less, and it's never going to be nonexistent, but less of the distracting stuff with the officials, less of the constant Body language that just to me doesn't demonstrate enough leadership. He wasn't doing it as much the other night. And there's some of the passes he threw in that game. By the way, chips in 46 points as well. But some of the passes he threw in that game and the way that the The Bulls had absolutely no chance to stop this guy in the half-court. That reminded me a lot of him at his absolute best in Dallas. And that's why I'm saying he's capable of doing stuff like that. If that's one or two games in a seven-game series, that's enough to potentially shift the series.

Well, that's why, as I said, I don't see any scenario where they get out of round one. I also wouldn't bet against them. I'm just like the look at that game he had the other night, it's just like the ceiling's off in Alder. The ceiling and floor is off. I don't know what to expect from them. If he just decides to do that for two months, what are we going to do? Clipper is number 10. They're officially the sleeper, even though they are still under 500. We talked about them already. The only thing I wanted to mention was five weeks ago, we were terrified that OKC was going to go 75 and seven and that the Clippers were going to give them a top three pick. And now, times have changed. Anyway, Zack did a good job of breaking them down with Mo in his podcast, but But the five-out thing that they can do now, I think, is the biggest thing I've noticed, that they have looks now. I don't think they knew what the hell they were those first four weeks, and Kawhi wasn't really back and fully Kawhi. And it was just the James Hardish.

It was awful. Now they have different things they can do. They got some young guys off the bench now, and they have a little bit more of a defensive by the end of the day. They figured out to use Collins. I think they're good. I'm taking them seriously. You have to. I'm taking them more seriously than the Lakers.

What's crazy is, It's crazy as this is how buried they were. They've won 15 out of 18, and they're still six games away from getting out to play to catch the 60. Can they make up six additional games on a team like Minnesota or a team like the Lakers? Can you make up six, seven games on those teams with 30 something to go? Probably not. So you're talking about most likely going to be a high-seated play-in team, a seven or something. That's the route they're going to have to take, even if they continue play out of their minds, because that's just a lot of ground to make up on other teams that are pretty good teams. I don't know they could do that.

That's a horror show matchup for the one seed. You'd be like, Oh, cool. We're the one seed. We get to play. We don't know if Kuaiz can be healthy in two months, but who knows? Next group is lurking, and this is just Cleveland and New York. Cleveland is 28 and 20. New York is 27 and 18. Cleveland last 15 games, 11 and 4. You saw them in person. You saw an awesome mobile game. In general, I never really gave up on this team because it wasn't like they could make a trade. They were so hampered by the apron. It wasn't like, it's like this is your team. So you have 82 games to figure this out. You have a lot of talent. Are you going to figure it out? They look better than it did. I want to mention They have a five-game West trip coming, and I think this is... We'll know when they go on this trip. If they're going to start to look like the 16-game win-street team from last year, going on the West Coast and being on the road and being together, this is usually when it comes together. So I'm monitoring that trip.

They absolutely are starting to come together. I've been scratching my head all year about this team that last year was unstable most nights offensively and also really good defensively. A lot of nights. But their offense was literally... They'd hit you with an onslaught of offense that you couldn't recover from last year. And it wasn't a lot of that this year. Garland has been hurt and took him some time to come back. And DeAndre Hunter just hasn't shot the ball well all year. And Merrill now out. They haven't had Struce. There's a lot of reasons, a lot of different lineups. All these teams deal with it. They've had a lot of it. They're starting to convince me more here. They're getting it together, not fully like, Okay, there you go. Now we're good to go the rest of the year, but definitely a better product than you were seeing over the first couple of months.

I'm monitoring them. The Knicks, this goes back to our regular season versus playoff discussion. They're six and nine in their last 15. Catch them on the wrong night. They look awful. I still think when we get to the playoff, it'll be a different story. The Towns piece is worth monitoring because it's weird that his offense went backwards, and he seems to be a little bit of a lightning rod these days, but we've already talked about the next in this pod. All right. Second and last group is the contenders. I still have Houston as a legitimate contender. So I have seven teams left: Houston, Boston, San Antonio, Minnesota, Detroit, Denver, and OKC. Are you good with that as a final seven here, or is there a team that would you put Cleveland or New York in that final seven?

Give me that seven again.

Houston, Boston, San Antonio, Minnesota, Detroit, Denver, and OKC. Would you have jumped Cleveland or New York over any of those teams?

Man, it's tough right now because it's- Sounds like you're down on Houston a little bit. Well, I was. I actually punished them severely when they lost it at I punished them. I banished them to 10th on my rankings in the West alone. I didn't obviously fully buy into that, but I was like, this was at a time when the Kings were losing by 30 to everybody. And then they get them. Losing that game, I was like, Are you kidding? Everybody played. Everybody played. It wasn't like they sat guys. Everyone was there. They were trying to win the game, and they got beat by the Kings. I punished them. That was just a temporary thing, obviously.

They're out of solitary confinement.

They're out of solitary. They're back out. Yes, they're back out in the yard. They're back out. I'm letting them out. But obviously, they've got the talent, and they've got the talent on both ends of the floor. Yes, they have to be still considered in the mix. Some of the... Minnesota is just like, Man, you're asking me the time when they're playing the way they're playing now? I'm going, Yeah, I guess you'd have to put almost New York and Cleveland in that boat.

Yeah, it might be a nine-person contender group.

I'm not ready. I think of the two, between the Knicks and the Cavs, I'd probably be more likely to go with the Knicks. But it's six, one-a-half dozen the other, honestly.

So Houston, number seven, they're still plus 6. 2 per 100, which is fourth in the league. There's still 12 games over 500. The thing that's weird with this team, so you would think KD and Schengen and Jibari and Reid Sheppard and Ahmed Thompson. You'd think that's my five. If I'm going to do anything in the playoffs, KD, Schengen, Jibari, Reid, Ahmed Thompson, those are going to be my five. That gives him the most flexibility. I could put Reid in the corner. He can run fast breaks. I have scoring, I have size. I can hide Reid on their worst player in the other team. Thompson can guard everybody. That's minus 2. 2 this season, those five guys together. And it matches watching their games and wondering why when those guys play together, why it's not better. And I don't know what is missing with those five. So what do you think? Kd, Schengen, Jabbari, Reid, Ahmed, Thompson. Why isn't that a kick-ass five? What am I missing?

Yeah. Well, I think it's more of even more so than I think than that five. There's two things I think that they have shown me that is why I'm not fully bought in. I do think their offense can be stagnant and stale sometimes. No question. They're not making teams guard them. They're making it easy to be guarded. I think there's more there that they could do with just motions and movements and cuts and weak side action taking place, multiple actions at the same time on different sides of the floor. They're very predicated on get the ball in the hands of KD or Shin-Gun, and they're just going to play out of that and see what happens. I think they make themselves easier to guard than they have to. The other thing, and I said this last week, I think one of the most untapped weapons in this lead is Ahman Thompson in the post. I don't know why they haven't really examined it. He never goes down there.

I would throw in him on the post, but then also when they spread out their team and he just tries to beat people one-on-one, I always feel like he's getting a layup. I'm with you. He's some force, and I don't know what. Maybe they don't know how to harness it.

I agree with you, the one-on-one stuff. But even then, you can at least you can back up, dare him to take a pull of 15 foot with a hand in his face.

Yeah, good point.

When he posts up, the rare times that he does, but I'm thinking of potentially viewing this, he's so quick off his feet.

He's incredible athlete down there, and he's a good passer.

So if you put him in a one-on-one situation, do you want to leave Reid Sheppard? Do you want to leave Kevin Durant? Do you want to rotate off those guys, even Schengen? Do you want to leave those guys to go double Ahmed Thompson in post? That's a tough call. I just think he could just learn how to go two, three dribbles with a guy on his back and the different spins he could get into because he's so lightning quick off his feet, it would put a lot of pressure on defense to try to figure out. I'm not running your offense that way, but why you can't do that five, six possessions a game, four, four possessions a game, one a quarter even? They don't ever do it. I think that would be something I would look at the team and go, wow, that's a nice other option to go to for a stretch of the game if Durant's getting a blow. Let's see how teams guard that. That's a tough matchup for guys that at that spot. They have to guard them. They're smaller and they're not nearly as quick as him. I just think it's something- I love that.

That's really smart. It doesn't feel like they've fully understood how to use him. But what's funny is nobody posts up anymore. That's very True. But I always feel like- Except for wings.

Wings and point guards do, but big guys don't.

True. Like, Peyton Pritchard is supposed to go. I'm always for anything that makes the defense panic. And I think if you spread things around with him, that would actually work. But I haven't given up on Houston. I think we'll be hearing from them. Adams seems like he's going to be out for a while. Adams is one of those guys that seems like he gets hurt every year, though. So I'm not sure. I'm sure that's why they got Capella.

He's such a difference maker, too. My goodness.

Number 6, Boston. We're not going to have to talk about them. Number 5, San Antonio. I feel like we've talked about them a bunch. Number 4, Minnesota. 28, 19. 8 and 7 in their last 15. Also some terrible stuff going on in the city, which I'm sure isn't... When you're trying to play basketball and stay focused on stuff, having your city falling apart around you probably isn't awesome. I'm not giving up on this team either. I do worry about them in the playoffs when they're up five with a minute left. And these teams that they're playing are just like, Let's go get the ball. They don't have a point guard. And they just get attacked. And it's like watching a football team under attack in a two-minute drill. And all of a sudden, it seems like they can't dribble the ball over half court. And I don't know how they fix that. How do they fix it?

That's personnel dictates they really can't unless they make a change in personnel. They can't. And that's one of the reasons that they're so difficult to come to a full evaluation of because they can be so good defensively some nights. And obviously, Anthony Edwards can just be too good for some defense for some nights, but that's just so much to put on his plate all the time, every night. Because he's such an explosive talented scorer, and he's gotten better at reading defenses and getting the ball out of traffic and all of that. But that's just so much to put on a guy's plate that should just be raw go attack all the time without having to think that way. But I think he has to because they don't have the personnel to really do that around him. I think it is a hole with their team that hasn't really been filled.

I think you and I both value the point guard position. You know what's nice sometimes? A point guard, a guy who can dribble, who's looking around and be like, Hey, he hasn't had a shot in a while. Hey, we have a fast break, rebound. I'll run the fast break and get somebody a layup. It's nice to have one everyone's mind. That's why I value Reid Sheepard.

He's buying a cruise by a pickup I just take a look and I see a guy running the show that way.

Yeah, it gives you a little hop on yourself.

45-year-old weekend warrior guy that knows how to run a team. There you go. Just give him a shout out through the window.

Well, that's why when I watch Reid Sheppard, I'm like, I feel like it's in there with him. I could see him running a team. We talked in a past podcast about- He reminds me of a more athletic Mark Price. Yeah, there's some Mark Price stuff.

More athletic Mark Price. That's what he reminds me of. I'm so glad he's had the year that he's had because Because it was a lot of scrutiny on him. And early on, you weren't sure like, oh, man, which way is this going to go? He has really stepped up. And he's on the court, as you already mentioned.

He's on the court for a lot of their important runs in games. He reminds me of my guy, Drake May, a little bit. Like, silent assassin. It doesn't really talk that much. Sneaky, competitive, just ready to fight. I just wanted to bring Drake May in the podcast. Number three, Minnesota, we'll see. I don't know how they can make a trade with how handicapped they are by the roster, but I think that point guard is just it. Even though I have them fourth, because I'm almost projecting some move, if this is the roster in May, they're dropping out of the top seven. Detroit, number three, we talked about them a little bit already. My only thing with him, one shooter short, 27th and three-point attempt, 17th and three-point percentage. I feel like so much is on Kate at the end of these games. The Levert thing, which I didn't like when they did it, and it doesn't seem like it's worked. And he's 14 million this year and 14 million next year. They have all their picks. It feels like that's the move, something with Levert and a pick and just try to get somebody who's more reliable.

They could go nuts and try to do Troy Murphy. I don't know if I'm New Orleans, I'm not trading for all Detroit's picks because they're going to be good for the next five years. But there's a move, right? There's something. Could it be Clay Thompson for Levert? I don't know. There's some shooter that I want to trust in the last five minutes of the game that will give them space. I like that.

I think that's the only thing I see. One thing that is their three-point shooting. That's a legitimate thing. To think that there's going to be nights In playoff series when they make eight threes and the other team makes 15, that's tough to overcome that. I don't care how good your mid-range is and you get to the line, you can score in the paint. At But some nights, it's going to require you to make 12, 15, maybe 18 threes in a game. And that's the one thing about the team. But when I start to think about that, what I counter that with is their ability to show up with this absolute focused business-like approach. And the fact that they've lost, I think, two games in a row, three times all year, never more than that. They always come back with me.

It's a great time.

When you think that they're like, Okay, look at Detroit. They've run off five in a row again. They've been doing it all year. I just love how serious they are. They're tough. They're going to come at you. They want to fight in an alley when the game starts, that they're ready for that, and they've got a star that you can't speed up. He plays how he wants to play under the most pressurized moments. But the shooting is a thing, and we'll see if that ends up costing them at some point down the road.

Friday night, I watched a bunch of basketball, including Denver. I'm sorry, Detroit versus Houston. Those are probably the top two seeds in these guys might fight tournament, and they were together and it was like, there's actually might be a fight in this game. And there was a couple of times it was brewing. Even in the fourth quarter, there was a couple of guys had to get separated. But Detroit is ready to roll. That's why I want them to get a shooter. But I would also love to see them get one more chest out guy because I think that's a real asset for them. And they're a real hard team for the Celtics because they're so physical and they're so tough. And the Celtics, it's a younger team. They don't have a ton of size. And you put somebody like Stuart out there and he's moving bodies. He's intimidating. And Durant, too, I think he's my most improved guy this year. I'm voting for him. I'm just telling you now.

That's a great call. He has to be an All-Star. And I love the point you're making about the toughest because you don't really see teams this young that are this Typically, those are teams that got a bunch of veterans sprinkled in there. It's a group of young guys that all have the same look on their face. I don't know. I'm just so impressed. Give JB all the credit in the world, man. He did a great job in Cleveland, too. I'm glad that he ended up in a place where he could go win right away. Because some of those guys, they win, then they get fired, and then they got to go... Their next job is a 20-win team, and you don't know if it's ever going to turn out. For him to go to a place that was a bad team but had a lot of time to turn it around, where both he and Kenny Atkinson end up in good places. I'm two of my favorite guys, so I'm happy for both of them.

You know what's funny about that team? Because this happened in the Houston game. Jabbari Smith almost got into it. The Pistons have a couple guys on their team that are, We have to get this guy out of this situation, guys, where you can see the other team, the other teammates are like, Oh, shit. We got to get Ron Holland out of here now. Something's going to happen. They have like, Isaiah Stewart, they have like that. They I think they got three of those guys. There was like, Oh, shit.

They hired extra coaches on staff, and that's all they're there for. They're not even a basketball guy. They got them from some nightclub, and they know how to get out there quickly and separate people.

You got to do it. All right, the favorites. I think Detroit, if that's my gun to the head team in the East, I would pick them because I think they have a trade to make right now who's going to win the East. I'm projecting whatever trade it is, but I really like that team. They're going to have home court, and I just think that I think it's all lined up for them. They have a top seven guy. Now, if they don't add another piece, I get more worried because I think there's the sameness to how they play that I think you get used to in a series. I'm just assuming they're going to get somebody.

There's also this massive X-Factor hanging over the Eastern Conference with Jason Tatum, possibly being injected into a playoff run by the Celtics.

I don't even want to talk about that.

Okay, so there's that hanging out there. So as good as it looks for Detroit now, we know things Listen, if he doesn't say he didn't even play, and Boston somehow makes it to the conference finals, that's one of the great coaching jobs and stories we've seen in a long, long time in this league. But if he comes back and none of these other teams- He's coming back.

The question is, how good is he going to be? We will see him again.

Yeah, he's going to play. I agree.

I'm going to write down every week who I think is going to come out of the East, and I bet it changes every week. This week, I'm picking Detroit. Next week, it'll be another pick. All right, the favorites. We'll go through these quickly. Denver, number 2. I used to have OKC as the sole favorite. I have now moved Denver into that group together, partly because this No Joker run was so important for their young guys. I mean, Watson in January is averaging 23 and 6 a game, 50 %, 49 from three. This is whatever happens when Joker comes back, the fact that they know that they have what they got from Watson and Picket, even a little nodgy. I just think you can't put a price on that. This is the most important thing that could have happened, them surviving without the best guy in the league. It's crazy. I never, ever in a million years would have predicted it. The other thing would be Gordon's hammies. We'll see what happens with them.

Real quick on Watson, because this has been a big conversation, obviously, for a month, how well it's played. But I'm being realistic about all of it, saying, Okay, get everybody back out there. Aaron Gordon, Christian Brown, Jokić. He doesn't go back to what he was. So he's more than that now. But at the same time, there's only so many opportunities in a given night when you add all those guys to the mix. So his numbers are going to obviously take a big hit. But here's what they did find. They found this because they're going to need this. There's going to be nights in big games where now maybe somebody's hurt or found trouble, or he just gets it going. He's now capable of giving you a 20 point playoff game. And this was a guy that was like... He almost became robotic to me in his decision making. He was all about, I'm just going to guard because I don't even factor offensively for this team. I didn't know what he was offensively.

I'm like, pretty good defender.

He's gone from that to a guy now that I think is going to be a turning point in games for the Nuggets. I agree. In the playoffs. It's crazy.

Well, you know it's funny. They also have Tim Hardaway, who I think once around will probably have a good half. Where Tim Hardaway said four threes in the first half. That's all it takes. Yeah. That's all it takes. They have wild cards that last year, you'd think like DeAndre Jordan was playing in playoff games for them, and they had their fingers crossed every minute, joke or what. I personally They would be my gun to the head pick right now. And I don't think that's going to change over the course of the next couple of weeks because I can't imagine Jokuj is only going to win one title. I keep coming back to that. So They have this, the best supporting cast he's ever had. This is the best Murray's ever looked. Is Kim Johnson going to be healthy ever? I don't know. That's the next factor, too. It'd be nice if he could just play basketball. But for the most part, if They can get everybody back in April. This team's a monster. And then OKC is the other one. They're 30 and 7 and 10 now. They're 12 and 8 in their last 20.

And J Dub and Hardenstein have only played half this season. I don't I don't really know how worried you should be here. I guess the only things that would worry me are the three-point shooting, which has been bad, and the fact that they don't get offensive rebounds at all. So when the three-point shooting goes away and the league's better, and it feels like you can get them late now. They're losing a couple of two-point games that I just don't feel like they were losing the same way last year. What else are you seeing?

Yeah, they've had three of those type of losses in the last three weeks, and that wasn't the case a year ago. Here's what's happened with Oklahoma City, and it's the best thing that could have happened really to the league, is they went from an inevitability of repeating, which is what it looked like to me. I was just like, We're going to go ahead and play this out. But what's the point? I know they got taken to seven games twice last year, but the fact that they had this strange offseason because they were champions, a bunch of young guys that come in, everybody gets paid. And And there wasn't even a blip on the radar for them. They roll out to 24 and one to start the year. I'm like, Forget it, man. How are you supposed to deal with this team? And again, defensive numbers off the charts. Here's what this happened in the last month and a half?

Plus four weeks. Yeah, four or five weeks.

Basically, that's the day of the month, really. Yeah. Is they looked like they can be had. They can be had if certain things happen. Now, you said gun to head Denver. Gun to head for me right now would probably be okay. See, I'm not ready to just act like them at their best isn't still something I'd look at as the standard. But they've now opened the door to the conversation. That's what they've done. Even the struggles they had with San Antonio, three times in 10 days, that's not a fluke. There's something there. Denver at full strength, you're going, My goodness. With Jokić getting another shot at that team again with a better supporting cast around them. Yeah, you might want to bet on yoga. But here's the thing. We haven't seen Denver like that yet because everybody's been out. So we're going to see this and we're going to revisit this a couple of times. I'm sure at least several times before we're done the season, going into the playoffs, it could change. But right now, I'm still hanging with them. But the fact that we're even having the conversation that there's doubt has made everything more interesting in the NBA.

Well, can I give you a scenario here?

Yeah.

It would require... Santana is 31 and 50, Houston is 20 and So it would require Houston somehow jumping San Antonio, and it would require Denver doing a little better. There is an OKC San Antonio 1/4 scenario in round 2.

Oh, yeah.

And then there's a Denver-Houston three-two round. Basically, there's a way for this to happen where San Antonio-OKC would be the round two matchup. I think that would suck for OKC. Not saying they would lose, but that would have to be their worst-case scenario to then have to play San Antonio and Denver the next round So I would just watch those top four spots. The Lakers are lurking, but I just think it's going to be those four in some order after OKC. And where they end up, can Denver get to the two seed when Jokuj comes back so they could at least have home court in the first two rounds. There's been some good jockeying.

Denver will be a two-seed when it's all said and done, which is actually amazing that we're not even talking about beyond that because as much as we've acted like Oklahoma City is so vulnerable, they're five and half games up.

Right.

You know what I mean? That could end up being eight when it's all said and done. Who knows? But I think Denver will get the two-seed and prolong seeing Oklahoma City as long as they can.

What's your Super Bowl pick?

I'm going with Seattle. I'm going with Seattle.

Because you work for ESPN and that's just what everybody did? No. They poured the Kool-Aid down your throat?

It's as simple as this. I'm an NFC guy. I'm an NFC guy.

Okay.

That's been my conference my entire life. I'm an NFC guy. Look, this would be incredible if the New England pulls this off, man. It's not even fair that you people that root for these teams up in that part.

People hate us. It's great. We're so back.

You just had Tom braided for 20 years. You're back in the Super Bowl?

We made it.

For the 22-year-old quarterback? Come on, man.

Listen, we suffered for five full years. That's terrible.

It was terrible. We were just completely irrelevant. I'm going to wonder for a long time what the hell Sean Payton was doing not kicking that field. But that's for another day.

I was on multiple Pats fan text threads, praying for them to go for it.

Yeah, that situation- I didn't want to go down to nothing. I didn't want to go down to the same way. Please go for it because you're just looking at the conditions and the way this game is going. You're like, that 10-point lead, it looks insurmountable.

Plus, even if they got it, it didn't guarantee they were going to score They just would have been first and goal on the nine.

The risk reward was not there.

There's no basketball version of this where people have just decided you should just go for it blindly on all these fourth downs because I always feel like you got to bring in the situation. That Denver, New England thing, and Seth Wickersham wrote a great piece about it, the perfect example of throw away the analytics and think about the actual situation and what's going on and the fact that the Patriots offense couldn't do anything and you could go up 10-0 at home with a blizzard coming. Take the points. Forget about the analytics. Forget about, Oh, we could go up 14-0. Cool. You could also just go up 10-0 and make us try to get two scores on you, and you didn't do it.

You know what's funny, though? I'll say this. What's going on currently changes your thinking. I'll give you an example. Two years ago, I'm a Commander fan. We go to the NFC Championship game that year. We went forward on every fourth down all season. You got to be one of them because Jaden Daniels- 20 for 23. It was impossible to stop. Now, Going into that year, I wasn't that aggressive with it. Now, by midseason that year, every single time, why do we even have a punter? Just cut the punter. We don't need a punter. We're going to go for it every fourth down all season. That's where I got to. It is amazing how you can change your thinking based on current success with something.

Tasting anything. Last thing I had for you. I talked about an NBA mailbag. A rule in the last minute of a game, if a team's up four and When there's a foul, the team that's up only takes one free throw. If they make it, it counts for two points, and we keep the game going. Or we can say last 30 seconds, whatever it is. Last 30, you're up. You foul me, I'm up four because you want to stop the clock. One free throw, I get two. If I miss it, I still get to take the other free throw. But if I make it, I get two points for the one free throw, and we keep going.

To penalize the team for trying to foul and get back in the game? Why?

Because I don't like the fouling. The fouling is out of control. We're seeing teams now proactively fouling to try to game it with 37 seconds left. I agree with that.

I'm tired of it. I'm tired of it. Even the whole thing up three, protecting a three-point lead and how early some of these teams are found. I think it's a massive mistake, by the way, strategically. To me, if you're up there, I've seen teams do it 15, 16 seconds left in the game.

Right. I hate it.

You have any idea how much longer you're extending the game? Because you're also going to put pressure on yourself to make free throws. You're going to miss one eventually. I just think it's silly. You get down to that seven, six-second range. Yeah, I see it. I get the point then. What some of these teams are doing, 15, 20 seconds left in the game of three. They're already taking fouls. I don't get it.

All right. Tim Legler, Cleveland and who tomorrow?

Lakers, man.

Oh, there you go.

We got a good one. Yeah, we got a good one.

That's a good one.

Both of them pretty well. Yeah. So I'm looking forward to it, man.

Great to see you. A pleasure as always. I'll see you in February.

You got to, Bill.

Thanks. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Legs. Thanks to Eduardo and Gehow as well. Don't forget, new rewatchables went up. Zodiac, which You can also watch on Netflix, and you can get that podcast wherever you want, including on Netflix. Wild Things coming next week on the rewatchables. I have one more podcast coming on Thursday as we start to get ready. Notice how I didn't talk about the Patriots really at all during this podcast. I was really proud of myself. I'm saving my thoughts. I'm listening. I'm listening. There's already been some disparaging comments made in the media circles. I'm hearing everything. We'll be talking about the Super Bowl over the next week and a half. Anyway, I will see you in this feed on Thursday. Must be 21 plus on President Select States for a Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus on President DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1-800 Gamble or visit rg-help. Com. Call 888-79-7777 or visit ccpg. Org/chat-n-connect, or mdgamblinghelp. Org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelp-line-ma. Org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8 Hope, N-Y or text Hope, N-Y in New York.