Transcript of Charles Barkley on Skinny Luka, the Eagles, LeBron, Jokic, Josh Allen, and His Uneasy ESPN Partnership

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Then so I think, moved into maybe second place for most rewatchable appearances, 12 or 13 for him. This is a really fun episode you can find on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. We're doing a bunch of football stuff this week. Ringer fantasy football shows in high gear. You have the Ringer gambling show, which got going. The Ringer tailgate our college football, which did really, really well. Ringer NFL with Sheil. So we're humming heading toward Thursday night. It's going to be me in house on Thursday and maybe some other stuff. I might do a fourth podcast this week. I would keep an eye on that. There's so much content. I thought the guests we're about to have, Charles Barkley, was just going to be the first part of the show. But man, once we got going, it was almost an hour and a half. We covered a lot. We covered a lot of basketball, his football. He comes on every year to do football stuff, make his picks. He picked the equals correctly last year. But we ended up diving into what happened at TNT and what's going to happen with him at ESPN and inside the NBA.

So always great to have him. He's honestly one of my favorite, favorite people. I was talking to Jimmy Kimmel once about this. I think he might be the best guest. If he's not the best guest, he's a one-seed in whatever the tournament is. Just can go on any talk show, can come on any podcast. He's just the best. Anyway, he's the podcast today, the one and only Charles Barkley. It's next. We're going to take a break. We're doing a Pearl Jam, and then Sir Charles. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by Fandil, and the NFL is back, and thank God, Fandil has everything. They got an awesome app. They have SGPs. They have great futures. They have good prop bets, live betting, your way bets, clean app. It's great to use. Been using it for a few years. Every time I go back to Boston or any place that has Fandil, and I get to use it, I'm always excited. I'm on an airplane runway. You done the airplane runway?

Yeah, oh, everybody.

Or airplane runway.

There should be a button, the runway button.

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All right, grandpa Charles Barkley is here.

He's visiting the grandkids. He's getting ready for football season. He comes on every year to make picks, and I think you picked the Eagles last year. And even if you didn't, I'm going to say that you did.

I did pick the Eagles, and I'm going to pick them again this year, brother.

Come back. Give me the back-to-back. Give me the explanation.

Well, they got the same offense. I'm not related to this guy, but his name is Saquon Barkley. I'm going to claim him because he's a Barkley. He is phenomenal. We still got the great wide receiver tandem, got a great tight-in. Jalen's phenomenal. Now, defense is pretty young. We're going through that transition. A lot of the older guys have moved on. But I think Big Fangio, by the end of the season, Here are my guy's rolling, man. I can't wait.

What about the hunger issue after you've won the title? It seemed like it hurt the Chiefs last year. The Chiefs were even complaining during Super Bowl week about, Oh, man, it's starting to feel like a gold hat for us. Do you believe with football, when you haven't won yet, getting back?

No. Well, they won three now. There's a little bit difference. When you won three. When we get to three, we might I get a little bored, but we only have one. But no, first of all, I don't believe that because it takes so much to get to the NBA Finals And to get to the Super Bowl, you don't take that for granted. The great Dan Moreno said one time, he says, I got there my first year, and then 10, 12, 13 years later, I never I had back again. I remember having the same conversation with Allen Iverson. He's like, Man, I thought I was going to be in the finals three or four times. I got there one time. I got there one time. I said, So this notion that you're going to get back there, man, when you get a chance to win the Super Bowl... Because, Bill, let me tell you something. You have to be honest with yourself as a player, and it's hard to do. There's very few times you actually have a chance to win the Championship. I played in the NBA for 16 years. I think I had a to win the title four times.

That's it. Shaquille, who's one of the greatest ever, he played in the league for over 20 years. He won four championships. So this notion that you're going to win all the time, no, man, when you got a chance to win, you better win.

Also, it's a percentage thing. If you're in a 30-team league, only one team could win the championship every year. Somehow we've underrated how hard it is to win a championship and all the different things that can go wrong. We just saw last year with the Celtics. You win the title and then your best guy gets hurt.

Yeah, but it takes a perfect storm to win the champion. If you got to have a couple of great players, obviously, but all your guys got to be in their prime, your role player, like the Diva Nuggets. When they got the best player in the world, then they got rid of all their guys on the bench. They're thinking like, We got Joker, we got Aaron, We got Michael Porter Jr. We got Jamal. They got no bench. They got rid of KCP and Bruce Brown. Everything has to go well. I mean, think about this, though. If the Eagles don't go out against Saquon Barkley, they don't win the Championship. They do not. So, man, everything has to go well. Listen, I love the Eagles no matter what, but if they don't go out and get Saquon, they don't win. I mean, same thing. Hey, how about But look at this. You're Celtics. If they don't go out and get Porzingas, they don't win. Also, I don't want to leave out Drew holiday. But if they don't go out and get Porzingas two years ago, they don't win the Championship.

Yeah, I said a couple of podcasts ago that the Eagles reminded me of the 2000s patriots with how they're putting the team together. Getting Jalen Carter with the ninth pick, right? You go back and do that draft again. He should have gone in the top three. He falls to nine for a variety of reasons, trading for A. J. Brown, trading a pick for him. They've just consistently outthought teams, which I think you have to do in the NBA now with all these new dumb rules they have. The second footprint thing is- No, they don't have dumb rules.

Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, That's the question. Is this a second apron defense? No. Yes. Why did they have to come up with bullshit rules, Bill? Because all these guys want to play together and not compete. How many great players do you need on one team? See, this is what bothers me in my generation. They made up these rules, these young people, well, if I had a dollar for every time I heard the second apron, why did Adam Silver had to put the second apron in? Because LeBron got all his guys together. Kd want to go play with the Warriors. Wait, you all don't want to win the Championship and just compete against each other? Don't get mad at Adam Silver because you all want to play together and dominate the lead because you all don't want to compete. I hate when I hear, Man, the second apron is not fair. What do you mean it's not fair? If you all stop all wanting to play together, we wouldn't have to make up bogus ass rules to stop you all from playing together.

This is interesting because I completely disagree with you.

Okay.

I think they came up with it because the Players Association, I don't think, realized that putting these rules in is is going to make all these teams blow up, and you're basically going to be able to afford two or three guys max, and then you're going to have to cut corners everywhere else. The Celtics, they had no chance of keeping Drew Halladay and Porzingis on this team with this nucleus.

But everybody on that team was getting paid Right.

But I'm saying now, but they did a really smart thing with the way they stacked their roster. Like, okay, see now, they made all these really smart moves to put the roster they have together, and they're not going to be able to keep it together even though they were smart.

I don't like penalizing people for smart. They're paying three guys. They're paying their top three players, Bill. Listen, as much as I love LeBron, when he started doing this thing with Bosh and Wade, that was the first Wade. The second Wade was KD going to the Warriors. Adam Silver had to do something. We can't let one team hoard all the good players. I mean, they had Clay Steph and Draymond. They didn't need KD.

Well, that's true. But that was a unique situation. To me, it's like in the mid '80s.

What do you mean a unique situation?

Well, because the cap spiked. That was the year Joe came, Noah, and Al Crab, all those dudes.

They went there to dominate the league. The regents of LeBron went to Miami so he can get him and to wait and Bosh together. If all these guys didn't want to play together, Bill, Adam Silver wouldn't have to come up with this second apron thing. That's the only reason. My sons, they were paying Katie, Bill, and Booker each $60 million. How many good players do you need?

You think I don't want to play?

You don't think in my heyday, I want to play with Katie and Bradley Bill? They're like, We can't pay everybody. They had to come up. This is a bogus rule. I agree with you. But if all these guys don't want to play together, Adam Silver wouldn't have to make up rules.

I was thinking it would be in the mid '80s if Philly had you and Andrew, Tony, and Mocheeks, and Moses Malone and Dr. Jay.

No, it'd be more like if Michael Jordan went to the Celtics to play with either... If Michael Jordan, who was the best player in the league three or four years before he won the Championship, If he had to went to Boston or went to LA, that's what it would be like.

Yeah, but you stepped on my joke that I was going to make. What's that? I was going to say it would be like if Philly, because they couldn't afford anyone, had to trade Moses Malone for Jeff Ruin and Cliff Robinson. And then you were going to say, Oh, no, that's actually what they did, and it was really stupid. I was just...

That was going to be the joke I made. Bill, let me tell you something right now. Bill, let me tell you something right now. You know I got a lot of love and respect for you. It's too soon for that bullshit.

It's for 39 years.

Let me tell you something. I'm being serious for one second now. I have been bitter and angry because that caused me at least one championship, probably two, because I was We're just becoming a star. We had the number one pick in the draft, and me and the guys went out to celebrate that night. This is the night before the draft. We got drunk as hell. I'm like, God, I'm like my third year in the league. I think that was the first time I had became an all-star. I'm excited for the future.

Was Andrew Tony healthy at this point?

No, he's out the league. But we still got a good team. I got Mercy Hawkins, Johnny Dawkins. And the only thing we were missing was a big guy. I got Brad Dorey coming in for the next 10, 15 years. I like my chances against anybody, anybody. And we go out and celebrate. I get home around 2: 30 in the morning. My phone rings around five o'clock in the morning. It's a great reporter in Philly, a guy named Phil Jasner. He said, Charles, I need to talk to you. I said, Phil, we've been out celebrating. I'm getting Brad Dirty tomorrow. He's like, Well, you better hold off on that. The Sixers made a trade. And I said, Phil, there's no way the Sixers are that stupid. You trade the number one pick in the draft. He says, And it get worse. I said, Well, it can't get any worse than that. I said, Phil, let me do it. So I said, This is a true story, Bill. I said, Phil, let me take a shower. So I want to make sure I got my head together. So I get in the shower, take a long, hot shower.

I call Phil back. It's about 5: 30 in the morning. I said, Phil, explain to me what's going on. He says, Well, you guys have just traded the number one pick in the draft to Cleveland. I said, You trade the number one pick in the draft Number one, you trade the number one pick. That's stupid. Then you trade him to the competition. If I remember correctly, I can't remember. I think we had just played. We had just beaten the Cavs in the playoffs. I I think we lost to the Bulls that year, if I remember correctly. But we had just played the Cavs and beat them in a five-game series. So not only you trade the number one pick, you trade them to the competition. Then they traded for Roy Hanson, who's a good friend of mine who was a decent player, but clearly wasn't going to be Brad Dardy. I thought Brad Dardy was going to be an all-star for the next 10 years, which he was, basically. Then Phil says, Oh, it gets worse. I said, What's worse He says, You guys traded Moses Malone to the Washington Wizards, to the Bullets at the time for Jeff Ruland.

I said, Jeff Ruland hadn't played basketball in two years.

Great or bad back.

I said- And didn't they try to trade Dr..

Jay to Utah, too? That was the other thing that was floating around. I remember that.

I think that might have been the year before. It was just for this one draft. I said, So you're telling me... See, because I thought Moses, who was my mentor, who helped me lose 50 pounds to become an All-Star, I thought he'd been great for me and Brad Dauri for the next two or three years. Then he could walk away, retire.

Plus the league was big back then because you had Samson Olajuwon, you had McKeel and Parrish.

I had to beat Bird McKeel and Parrish. And I was like, Jeff Ruland hadn't played in two years. And I think me and Jeff Ruland played two games together, Bill. So not only we trade the number one pick in the draft for Roy Hinson, we Moses to DC for Jeff Ruland and Cliff Robertson. And from that point on, we went in a spiral, obviously, downhill, because the Celtics were on their last legs.

It was between the- The pistons and bulls come in.

Yeah. But if they gave me Brad Dirty, I would have felt pretty good about myself because the Bullets didn't have anybody who can handle Brad Dirty. I don't know. They had Bill Cartwright. Right. I was like, No, I'm good. I'm good. And man, from that point on, I was so angry. Then I had to spend another four years just sucking in Philly. And it was brutal. It was brutal. But I blame the Sixer for making arguably one of the worst trades in NBA history.

Well, so then you leave in '92. And I was going to ask you about this later, but let's do now. So you're watching the Luka Donchik. He's now Skinny Luka. He's got the eye of the Tiger. He wants to prove Dallas wrong. You You were in this exact same spot when you were headed to Phoenix. You're in the dream team that year. You're in the best shape of your life. You're motivated. You want to stick it to Philly. Do you see parallels when you're watching and reading the stuff about him right now?

I think Luka is a great player. I think he's a lot younger than I was, to be honest with you. And listen, as long as I got some help, because it was interesting, I had zero idea where I was going to go. I remember the last couple of years, he had me on the cover of the news. It was like eight different teams trying to get me, and I didn't care. I just wanted to get the hell out of there. And it was really interesting about the story, Bill. So that summer, I got arrested in Milwaukee for fighting. I beat the... Just America, I beat that rap. I've been arrested a few times in the fight, but I've never been found guilty. Let's get that out of the way.

Let me write that down. Yeah.

We're in Milwaukee. I'm on trial for that week. I spent the whole week writing a letter to the 76ers. There was no way I was going to get convicted because I didn't do anything. So me and my attorney, we spent the whole week because I didn't want to piss people in Philadelphia off because Philly was great to me. We spent the whole week writing a letter to the 76ers. I basically said, Hey, guys, I don't want to come out publicly because Philadelphia has been great to me. I love the fans. They've always been great to me. But you all I suck as an organization. I will never play for you all again, ever. I get acquitted Friday morning, catch a flight back to Philly. I bought a whole plane drinks, Bill. I said, You all drink up. Nobody knows what's going on. I just got to quit it. So I bought the whole plane drinks. I don't give a damn.

I didn't know you could do that.

Yeah, that's when you had to pay for drinks back in the day, remember? Dude, we flew commercial my first four years in the league. At that time, remember? Well, first class got free drinks. You had to pay for them and coach. See, Bill, you've been famous and rich for so long. You forget about the old days.

I just had never heard about anyone buying a plate of drinks.

Well, you had to pay for drinks and colds back then.

Yeah. Well, that was good.

That's a good- That's nice that you did that. We get the letter. It was really ironic, which is really crazy. I get home that Friday night. I'd ordered a set of... Because every time you went to Phoenix, you got fitted at paying for a set of golf clubs. So I had forgot because I think we went out. Well, we always went out West for Christmas. Got the Circus was in town in Philly. We always did a two-week trip during Christmas, got the circus in town.

They had that in Boston, too. The two of you just disappear. Yeah, for Two and a half weeks.

Yeah. So I get back home on a Friday night. Me and the boys, there's a set of paying golf clubs on my front porch. I live in a gated community. I put a big box. I ordered these golf courses, these clubs, back in December. I totally forgot I ordered the golf club. We go out and celebrate, have a great weekend. Sunday night, I get a call from my agent. It's Sunday We're going to release the letter Monday morning. I get a call from my agent, Sunday night, you've been traded to the Phoenix Suns. You got like an eight o'clock flight to Phoenix the next day. So It was really crazy. I got the golf club from Phoenix at my house that Friday, and we're going to release the letter Monday morning. I get traded that Sunday night. I'm on an eight o'clock fight to Phoenix that morning. It was I think it was in August sometime, if I remember correctly.

So you weren't angry about it. You were relieved.

I was relieved that it was over because I had to hear the rumors for three years.

Yeah, and you knew it was coming, whereas Luca had no idea it was coming. It seemed like he got blindsided for a month.

That's one of the weirdest things. I don't even know how you keep that a secret.

Well, you keep it a secret when it's the two GMs, basically, who know each other, and that's it.

That's 100 % the two GMs. But it's going to be interesting because I think the Rockets... The NBA is going to be interesting next year because I think the Rockets and the Nuggets probably had the best summer. Obviously, getting KD is going to really improve the Rockets, but they finally got Lucas some help. I love what the Nuggets did this summer.

Me, too.

But obviously, if you got Luka and LeBron, you're going to be competitive. But I don't think it's earth-shattering like the Lakers are going to win the West. Like I said, OKC ain't going anywhere. I think if you had to rank them in order, I'd go OKC, Rockets, Denver.

And then probably the- Interesting. Rockets over Denver.

Well, because, man, I'm telling you, they are so deep. They didn't give up anything to really get KD.

Yeah. I would have Denver, too, and the Rockets, three. I would have Minnesota over the Lakers, though. I just think the LeBron, the age that he's at and the defensive stuff with them- Yeah, but the Luka is in shape.

That has another element. Like I said, we're not going to say... This ain't like March Madness, where when people be arguing over who's '69' and '70, Bill. I I always love every year there, March Madness. Somebody's pissed off. I'm like, Yo, man, nobody goes around saying I'm number 69 and 70. If you're not one of the top 60, 18, shut the hell up. Don't be saying we should have got in.

You played with a couple of DeAndre Ayton types in your career. I'm a little dubious of that one, too. It's the super talented guy who's been disappointing everywhere he's been. But maybe this time it'll be different, especially when it's a center. Those guys usually don't work out. No.

You know what's going to be different? He's going to be a free agent. Those are the most dangerous guys.

One year. The guys who should be paid year by year?

Well, there used to be a thing back in my day. One of the reason why NBA start cutting salaries and short term deals, there were guys, and I can name some guys who played like crap for two or three years, and then all of a sudden became Bill Russell, their last year. And then as soon as they signed that big deal, went back to being a regular dude. So I think the piggyback on your point, I think that's one of the things that's going to make the Lakers interesting, Because Aiden got a ball out this year because if he does not play well, he's not going to get no big deal. Let me tell you something. If he don't ball out playing with LeBron and Luka, he ain't never going to ball out. You talk about the perfect scenario, but he's going to be so dangerous this year because he's going to be a free agent.

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I wonder if OKC is going to be better I never thought OKC was going to lose.

The only time I thought they were going to lose when the old boys switched up the starting lineup, and I was like, what the hell are you doing?

When he got rid of the... Yeah.

I was like, what are you doing? The only other person I saw do something that stupid was Avery Johnson.

If you go back- In '07, yeah.

Yeah. We were sitting there in the studio that night when we was like, what just happened right here? And we were sitting in the studio like, Avery Johnson changed up his starting lineup to go against Don Nelson's small ball. Why would you do that?

You got to- He went to 167 games.

You were the number one seed, and you change up. And when boy did that this year, I was like, What the hell? Then they had losing up losing game one. And then they blew them out in game two, but it didn't matter because they got to split. Then they won game three. And he finally went back to his enormous lineup I was like, Yo, man, you don't change up thing when you got the best team. You've been the best team in NBA all season. And I thought that was the only time I felt like, Yo, man, don't do that again. You almost caused your team the championship. But I said, Midway, past an All-Star game, I started making predictions. I said, Nobody can beat this Oklahoma City team four times in a row. They're too good, man. They're one of the deepest teams we've ever had in the NBA. They remind me a lot of the old Pistons back in the Isaiah of Thomas days. Everybody talked about Isaiah and Joe Dumars, who were great. But Hardenstein is Lambert. And then coming off the bench They had Sally, James Edwards, Benny Johnson, Mark Aguirre. They had 10 players, and you can just plug them in.

And it was amazing to watch them play. And they're going to It's going to be tough. The only thing you got to worry about with them is they're going to get everybody's best slap next year, and it's going to be a shock to their system. They've been the cool little kids for the last couple of years. They finally reached their potential. But now When you hunt it, man, it's a different animal. It's a different animal.

Sometimes the teams will go up a level defending. I remember the 92 Bulls were like that after they got the first one. They were like, ripping through the next year.

They had Michael Jordan. Listen, all this stuff, I love talking about players. People always ask me the difference between Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and LeBron, because those are three best players I've seen in my generation. The two most important players ever are Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, because they made the NBA what it is today. But the three best players I've ever seen were Michael, Kobe and LeBron. And I'll tell you the difference in the three. Michael and Kobe are dangerous. They'll kill your ass. Lebron is a nice guy. And I said, And that's not a knock. He's still great, great, great, but he's a nice guy. Michael and Kobe aren't nice guys. They're different. And the one thing about OKC, even though I think Shay is a great, great player, he, to me, is more like LeBron. He's a really nice guy. He's not out there trying to kill you. I think that's the difference. Jalen, they got a bunch of really good players, and that's fine. But I always tell people, the difference between Michael and Kobe, man, they are dangerous. I mean, they really wanted to kill you and humiliate you. I think Tom braided is like that.

Yeah, he is. Yeah. I think there's very few players. Out of all the great players I've ever met in my life, I think Michael and Kobe, Tom braided, Roger Clemens, I think they want... Who?

Roger Clemens? Yeah, Roger Clemens. Where did that come from?

He'll throw it your head in a minute.

You're talking about mean-spared and great athletes. Yes.

They're going to do whatever it takes to win. They ain't worried about who liked them, and they ain't worried about your feelings. And there's nothing wrong with that. Everybody's not built like that. I'm not even built like that. I think I'm a pseudo tough guy. I want to win, But I'm just not like those guys.

You're still the guy buying drinks for everybody on the plane. 100% probably. Mj would have been playing cards.

Yeah. And MJ wouldn't pay for other people's drinks. Just probably his and whoever he was playing cars with.

What you just laid out, I think about a lot, because the all-time guy that everybody says was like that was Bill Russell. He just wanted to destroy people. Yes. Everything he did was about trying to get in somebody's head, intimidate people. Like with Wilt, he made friends with Wilt to try to get closer to him, to make Wilt go less hard at them when they played. All he wanted to do is win and take care of business in the games. The MJ stat that I love, I think it was eight straight years. He never lost three straight games. Ever. He just wouldn't accept it. There's nobody who's been wired like that. That's why he can sustain it.

The closest I've seen is Kobe. I saw a picture today, as a matter of fact. I was scrolling, and he got a picture of Magic Johnson. He was talking about Magic. He's talking about Michael's the best he's ever seen as far as talent, work ethic, and mental toughness. Michael has this look in his eyes, Bill. And I said, That's Michael Jordan right there. They had Nobody else notices this because Magic is dribbling the ball. Michael's guard him, but they got Magic's quote. And the look in Michael's eyes, I was saying to myself, That's the guy. That's the guy right there.

I remember the picture. He's looking up and he looks like a serial killer.

Like a serial killer. Like a serial killer. That's 100%. Let me tell you this quick Olympic story. So John Thompson, who's one of the greatest men I've ever met in my life. So I get cut from the Olympic trials. And my coach, Sonny Smith, says, Hey, I got a call from John Thompson. He wants to talk to you. And he says, Come to my office at this certain time. So he puts him on a speakerphone. He said, Sonny, I just want you to know. Bobby was an asshole. Charles deserved to make the Olympic team. He was the second best player there. Bobby didn't I like Charles. He never told us why. Charles got down to the final 20, but he was a second best player. He should have made the team, but Bobby just didn't like him. He was the second best player there. And I said, Coach, I really appreciate the call. And I want to thank you for the kind words. And I said, Why do you not like me? He said, He never told us why, but he just didn't like you. And I said, Fine. So he hangs up. And Sonny says to me, Wow, I'm a little surprised.

He says, What do you mean? He says, I thought you were the best player in the country. I said, Well, I'm fucking not. I said, Coach, I saw the greatest player I've ever seen in my life. We became friends. It was the most amazing thing I've ever seen in my life. He's a little taller than me. He's about 6'6. He's jet black. He cannot run everybody. He cannot jump everybody. And he is out here trying to go And I said, what's his name? I said, his name is Michael Jordan. And I think Michael is either a freshman or a sophomore. He wasn't as a coach. And I'm used to playing against Melvin Turpin, Sam Bowie, Kenny Scott Walker, Dominic Wilkins, and those flowers at Georgia. I played against Hakeem in college. So I'm not playing against... I played against Faust Slamma Jamma.

Yeah.

As a freshman or a sophomore, I can't remember which one it was. So I'm used to Playing against real deal dudes. I mean, Florida had a guy named Ronny Williams and Bernard DeLand said they were awesome. And I'm like, this dude is some scary. I've never seen Coach. Like I said, he a little taller than me. He cannot run. And he got an attitude, he's out here. And, man, that was the first time I played against Michael, and it was scary, Bill. Like I said, he was going... I see Roy Williams talk about... I had to tell Michael to stop going so hard every day, even in practice. I mean, he's wired. I'll give you another story. So we're playing in a Terminal Americas in Portland, Oregon. We're playing Puerto Rico No. So me, David Robinson, Chuck Daley. And David Robinson, go play 18 holes that morning. So we're done. We said, Chuck, let's go get some rest. We got a game tonight. Mike said, I'm going to play 18 more. Chuck says, We got a game tonight. He says, I'm going to play 18 more. So we leave. He goes play 18. We went back and got some rest.

We get to the game, and Michael, we all getting dressed. And he's like, David, you got this dude. Charles, you got this dude. Irving, you got this dude. Michael looks up and says, I got him. And Chuck says, he's the point guard. Michael says, I got him. Chuck says, Okay, Bill, We started the game. Michael's screaming this little kid from Puerto Rico. Don't you ever fucking say anything about me in the newspaper. He's guard this dude like it's game seven. This is after 36 holes, Bill. He's screaming this little kid, and we're looking around like, Yo, man, there's something wrong with this dude. He's screaming at this kid from Puerto Rico. Don't you ever say anything about me. I read what you said in the newspaper. He's doing that little drill, that little drill where you turn people, which most people. They're fast enough you can't turn them. He's scarring this dude like it's game seven, and he's screaming at this kid. That was the first time I realized he didn't have a full deck. So then we're in the Olympics and we're playing Croatia. They got Tony Kukos, who's having like 40 points a game.

Scottie and Michael says, Chuck, we're going to take turns Martin Scott, Tony Cukos. We're not going to let him score. Guys are having 40 points a game. You know one thing about those international teams, they run the same play for the same guy. It was the best defensive performance I've ever seen. These dudes are talking in timeouts. They're screaming at us, Let us get over the pick. Just head for a second. We're going on there on this one. They're the gardeners dude. They're like, We're not going to let him score. I think he finished like some 7 for 30, something like that. It was some of the best. That's why I said, Michael is wired different. It was beautiful and amazing. Those are the two most interesting things that I've ever seen him do, man. He just wired differently.

Yeah, that's why the Pippin stuff was sad after the last dance, that that relationship went sideways because as great as Jordan was, I always felt like those guys together were its own awesome thing. And I don't know. I always felt like Jordan appreciated, and then Pippin feels like he seems like he's underappreciated with that whole aspect.

It's really sad. First of all, I have never won a championship, But if you won six championship, that's pretty damn special.

Yeah, you should be bonded by that.

But jealousy is a dangerous thing, man. Jealousy is a dangerous thing, and it's really unfortunate. Michael Jordan made us all a lot of money. He made us all a lot of money, NBA-wise, shoe apparel-wise, clothing deals, commercials. See, that's the thing a lot of people don't understand. Athletes were not making commercials until Michael Jordan. Nobody had a shoe deal. You saw that movie air. Nobody was getting a percentage of shoes until Michael Jordan.

He's made- He run a converse. Yeah.

They weren't making no percentage of shoes back then. They were getting a little money, him and Magic, but they weren't making any money. Michael's mom said, Hey, we're going to get a percentage of shoes. Michael said, No, we don't do that. He said, Oh, well, we're going to do it now. I started getting paid because of Michael Jordan. But like I said, nobody was making money for shoes. Nobody was shooting. Now seeing jocks in commercials is saying hello. So shout out to Michael Jordan for making us all a lot of money, brother.

Speaking of commercials, LeBron did that Forever King commercial. Did you see it? That Nike thing? I did.

I probably saw it, but it didn't pay it that much attention.

Yeah, it was this, I don't know, 45-second commercial about all the people he's vanquished, and it's just close-up shots of him with a crown on. I don't really understand what his MO is. If you talk about it, it's like, Well, you're being critical. It was like, This guy's one of the best players of of all time.

That's the only thing I hate about LeBron. First of all, he's a great, great player. He's an amazing person, really nice guy. But for him and his guys, if you don't say he's the greatest ever, it's like you could commit treason.

Right. You're either for them or against them. Can I just say you're one of the greatest players of all time?

No, you cannot. If you do not say he's the greatest of all time, you'll commit treason. You can't even mention Michael, Kobe, Bill Russell. That's a faction of Kareem people. I actually feel like Kareem is the one guy who get left out.

100% agree. Yeah.

Because nobody has a better career, high school, college and pros, than Kareem Abdul Jibr.

He got four years at UCLA that he could have been in the NBA just putting up stats and he would have been one of the best guys.

But that's the only thing I don't like about LeBron and his guys. They're like, If you don't say he's the greatest thing since Slice Bread, they hate you. And it's really sad. And it pisses me off when it happens, too. But, Yo, man, it's just people's opinion. Because first of all, most of these young punks today in the public, they never saw Michael Jordan play. Most of them never saw Kobe play. They definitely didn't see Kareem or Bill Russell play. But for some reason, this generation, Oh, you're being a blasom of saying LeBron. I'm just Listen, I got a number of love and respect for LeBron because I said this before. He's probably had the best career ever for a high school- Him and Kareem. No, I'm talking this for his high school players. Because if you remember some, Bill, Kobe struggled in the beginning. Kevin Garnett struggled in the beginning. All those high school players struggled a lot. Remember, he booed Kobe early in his career. But I can say this, LeBron James James is the only player in my 40 years in the NBA who came right out of high school and played well.

I had his first game. I had his first game. Lebron James in my 40 years, Kobe became great, Kevin Garnett became great, McGrady, all these guys. But I can honestly say LeBron James is the only one who came out of high school who played well right away.

I think he's in a weird spot with this Lucas situation because from the moment- No, he's not.

It's time to move on, brother.

Well, but I don't think he feels like it's time to move on. When they did the press conference- Well, wait.

Kareem... Bill, see, this is the problem. Kareem did it with Magic. Tim Duncan did it with Tony Parker, Janobly, and Kauai Lent.

He doesn't want to do it, though.

You have to, Bill.

Listen, I agree with you. I'm just telling you what I'm watching. When they put this statement out and they said, We got to be more committed to winning a title, it's like, You've Luke on your team. You're committed.

They're not They're not trying. They went out a guy, Luka Duncik. They're not trying. Hey, man, I don't like when guys... The baton has to be passed from everybody. It's passed from everybody. The Lakers haven't been irrelevant. The bubble was the last time they've been relevant. I hear people talk about LeBron's putting up good stats, but the Lakers have not been relevant since the bubble. Now, are they relevant? Bringing in Luca helps, but I'm not going to pick them. They lost two of the Timberwolves last year. They're not relevant with OKC, the Nuggets, or the Rockets, in my opinion. I'm not going to pick the T-Wilts or the Lakers over those top three teams.

Well, you saw it from the course of your career. The league is about young guys and then guys in their prime and then older guys trying to hang on. Once you're in that last group, it's so much tougher to go 100 games.

Yeah, but it's easier. It shouldn't make it easier. Kareem, okay. I bet Kareem won.

You can't count Kareem, though. Kareem had the most unstoppable shot in the loop. I know that.

But would you say, Magic were responsible for the last... Him and James were the part of responsible for the last two championship. And for Tim Duncan, who's the greatest power for it ever, I think Duncan, Parker, Janobili, Not Duncan. Duncan, excuse me, Parker, Janobili, and Kawhi Leonard are part of the response for the last two championship. There's nothing wrong. He still get the championship ring. If the Lakers win the championship and Luka wins the MVP, don't LeBron get a Championship ring? Come on, man. Stop it, Bill.

I'm on your side. I agree with you. I don't know what he sees because the move would be, I've got to... I've lucked out. I have one of the best four guys in the league on my team again. How do I fit in at the age I'm at to add him? He hit the lottery. I know. But I don't know if he wants it because it seems like if he could have forced a trade over the summer, he probably would have. I would look at it as like, this is an amazing situation. You can pick your spots. You can probably play 55 games during the season. Luka will do all the work and then turn it on in the playoffs for 10 weeks. You win. You win if you make the finals. You win if the team succeeds. It's like Ernie Johnson. Ernie wins when your show is good. Ernie's not like, I got to get my takes off today. Ernie's like, I have these three guys. I have to make them better. I win if the show is good. That's how LeBron has to think.

You know what's interesting about you saying that? I hate these guys so much who whine about that, Bill. As a guy who was dying for better players around me, when you see these things where guys can't play together, You're saying to yourself, Kyrie didn't want to play with LeBron. I'm like, Why not? Kobe didn't want to play with Kobe and Shaq. I'm like, What do you mean you all don't want to play together?

That got personal, though. I know. That went to another level.

But that's my point. These guys drive me crazy. I'm down to play with other great players. Who want to come to Philly and play with me? Who want to come to Phoenix and play with me? When I hear these guys, I want to be the guy. I want to be the guy, too, on a winning team. I don't have to be the guy, especially when I'm not the same player. When I hear this stupidity, Kobe and Shaq probably should have won three more championships. If Shaq had to say, Hey, you know what, Kobe? You're responsible for the last Championship, probably. I probably can win a couple more if I just shut the hell up and play.

Now it's time for a special part of today's episode brought to you by YouTube. One of my favorite places. Mark your calendars, NFL fans, Kansas City, the Los Angeles Chargers. They're facing off in San Paolo on Friday, September fifth, for the first time ever, YouTube streaming it free for absolutely everyone. It's 100% free. Carol G will be the halftime performer. Can't miss the game, obviously. It's my home. It's AFC West. It's a classic. Coverage starts at 07: 00 PM ET on September fifth for the 08: 00 PM ET kickoff. Is there a better way to spend your Friday night? I can't think of one. I like the Chiefs. As you've heard from my podcast, I'm just feeling like an off year for the Chargers and the Chiefs laying the smack down, trying to remind everybody that they're here, the neutral field thing. We'll talk about it on Thursday's podcast, but I am in on the Chiefs in this game. And you could be in. You could be one of the 100% of the people watching this game live for free on YouTube on September fifth. Carol G performing at halftime. Watch it live only on YouTube.

Certain local broadcast available. Head to youtube. Com/nfl on Friday, September fifth at 7: 00 PM ET. 8: 00 PM ET kickoff. Chiefs, Chargers. You might have heard of both of those teams. Game available via YouTube globally, except in Canada and certain other countries. Game will also be on free over there, broadcast, television, local markets of the participating clubs. And this is why I defend Duncan so much. And Duncan now, as the years pass and people could just look up his stats and I'm like, Oh, this guy's better than this guy. Duncan could have averaged, I don't know, five, six more points a game. He could have had better everything if he wanted to. But he was all about like, We're winning 70% of our games. I'll come in and out when they need me. And when they really need me, guess what? I'm the best power forward of all time, and I'll be there. But he was very generous with... All he cared about was how the team was doing, and he was inclusive, and how to raise guys' levels. I don't know why we don't treasure that as a basketball fan community. Because you guys- I'm not a you guys in this.

I'm on your side on this.

No, but you guys in the media, not you, particular Jackaz is on television. It's like, whose team is it? And things like that. I'm sitting back watching. I'm like, Yo, man. Let's say, hypothetically, is it Dr. Jay's Championship or Moses' Championship?

It doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter. That's why that goes back to my original point. Man, I would have loved to have won a Championship with another guy beside me. That's what drives me crazy about these foods on television. They go on TV every day. This weekend, I was saying to myself, Oh, shit. I would I hate to be Arch Manning and Bill Belichick this week because I know how the losers on television are going to react. I know how stupid the public is. They don't even understand. But I was saying to myself, Man, I'd hate to be Arch Manning Monday, and I'd hate to be Bill Belichick Tuesday, because I know how these foos on television are. I knew they were going to crush Arch Manning, and I knew they were going to crush Bill Belichick. And I sent Bill a text Monday. I said, Hey, man, because me and Bill are close. I said, I just want you to know I know it's a lot of people hoping you fail, but I always want you to know you're my guy, and I'm waiting for you. Have a great season. But as I knew this morning, they were going to crush him.

That's the way this business is now. It's unfortunate. And like I said, I knew Arch Mannings played one football game of significance. He's an 18, 19-year-old kid. He goes against a hell of a team against Ohio State.

He's on the road. It's his first Big start, huge spotlight.

I said, Man, these guys, these foods on TV, going to kill him Tuesday. Excuse me, kill him Sunday and Monday. But that's the environment we're in now, Bill. And it's really unfortunate. I mean, it's really unfortunate because that's the way you get recognized and make money now. And that's sad.

I thought it really hurt the NBA the last couple of years. And you guys took some bullets on it, too, from talking about old generation versus new generation. You guys were too negative about the current game. But I actually was more on your side with some of that stuff. The stuff I don't like is when we're... And there's people that do it that I actually like. You and I both like Steven A. But when he was on the NBA Countdown show and every halftime is about this guy's got to step up because they're losing because of him. Where is he? I don't know. It's just Not for me.

I think what we're losing, number one, you have a great point. But we got so many great players in the NBA, but these foods spend all their time comparing... Michael Jordan is dead, okay? Michael Jordan is dead. He's been retired forever.

Yeah, over 20 years.

These foods spend all their time comparing him to LeBron. I'm like, Why? Michael Jordan has been dead for 20-some years. Let's let LeBron be LeBron. We're starting to do this stupid shit in golf now. Man, Scott is just as good as Tiger. I'm like, damn, you all just see him ruin the NBA, we can't appreciate LeBron's greatness or Steph Curry's greatness. We got to compare him to a guy who's been dead for 20 years. I'm like, Michael Jordan is great, but so is LeBron, so is Kobe, so is Steph, so is Joker. Why do you all have to get on TV? First, because they got no talent. They got no talent, Bill, because they know people are going to go on the internet and argue with them or go on the the Internet on these radio shows and argue with them. That's why they do it. Now I see these foods doing it in golf. Scottie Scheffler, he's great. I love Scottie Scheffler. He's good as Tiger. I'm like, Well, I'm sitting here like, Scott is Scheffler is 29, and he's won four majors. Tiger won four majors at 24.

After winning three amateurs in a row before he even turned pro.

I'm not sure. Tiger has won 30 times by then. Scott has won 17 times. He's 29. Why can't we just appreciate his greatness? Why you all have to be lazy and just bring that up? Tiger is a once-in-a-generation type player. Scottie, if he keeps rolling, he's the best in this generation. But these guys, they need hot takes on television and radio because they need foods to click on them on the internet or call them into their radio shows. It drives me crazy. I said, Michael is the best I've ever seen. I love him. I respect him. The next I've seen is Kobe. Now, the last 20 years has been Steph and LeBron. I don't have to compare them. I can appreciate their greatness. Scottie is the best we got going today. I don't have to compare him to Tiger or Jack or Arnie or Gary player. But These guys have become lazy because they know people are going to get on their computer and come after them. Or a lot of them have radio shows. I have friends in Philadelphia where I live during the summer. I play golf with them in the morning. I said, What are you going to talk about today?

They're like, We're going to talk about Michael, Kobe LeBron, guys like that. I'm like, Why are you doing that?

Is Jalen Hertz good enough, even though he already won a Super Bowl? Yes. Can you win two Super Bowl with Jalen Hertz? That's our topic today.

Yeah. And they tell me the truth. They're like, Charles, you don't understand how the media works. I said, This is in the '80s and '90s, Bill. And they said, This is how the media works. We got to get foos to call in and argue with us for four hours. We don't believe half the shit that we say. I said, What? He says, I'm on radio for four hours. If I say Michael's the best, half the people going to call in and say he was. The other half going to call in and talk about LeBron, he's the greatest. But then some sprinklers going to come in, talk about Bill and Wilt. He says, That's what our job is in the media. We're on radio for four hours. And then I was like, Wow, that's interesting. And these are some of my great friends to have some of the most popular shows in Philadelphia in the '80s and '90s. They're like, Our job is just to get people and call in and argue for four hours. It taught me a lot about the media. Now, the difference is, now is, they're all on TV making millions of dollars.

That was one of the reasons I was hesitant to do the ESPN deal, to be honest with you.

I was going to ask you about that.

Because I don't want to do that. I want to go on TV. One of the reasons I love doing your podcast, and I'm not saying it's going to be a podcast. I don't do many podcasts. I like you, and I know you're going to be honest on a straight shooter, even if I disagree. I know one The reason I hated Skip Bayliss, like, Yo, man, people, you can disagree with people, but television is so powerful. People believe what we say. They do. And I don't mind agreeing or disagreeing with people, but I ain't going to say shit just to get people to call in and argue with me. That's the one reason I like you. I know you're like, I'm going to I got to do my job to the best of my abilities. I don't care who clicks on to me. I ain't trying to get people to like me or dislike me. That's the reason I first developed a hatred for Skip Bayliss. Like, You, man, you can't People believe what we say.

Right. I had one of these a couple of weeks ago because I genuinely think Josh Allen was the best QB in the league last year, even though the results didn't happen. He was. I was saying, so trying to figure who's the quarterback hierarchy heading into this year? And I'm like, I just think Josh is the best QB. I know Mahomes has the resume. I don't think he was that good last year by his standards. And I can't put him first based on what he did three years ago.

So I got friends who work at ESPN.

Yeah.

And there was a racial component of it, too.

Right. Well, the Jokaj and B thing was brutal. That was the worst.

They asked me my opinion. I said, I think Josh Allen is MVP.

Right.

They're I was like, What about Lamar? Lamar had a great year. He's amazing. I love Lamar. I said, But your question is, who had the best year? I said, Who is Josh Allen got in the backfield? Now, the Cooke kid is a good player. He's not Derek Henry.

He's not Derek Henry. Which coaching staff would you rather have? Which infrastructure?

Who are Josh Allen wide receivers? I think the best one was- Was Shaquille.

Shaqir.

Shaqir.

Yeah.

And then the kid, the Coleman kid, who's a rookie. Then you got the kid who comes to games who's naked. And I said, Josh do not have... And they had a better records, and they beat him head to head. I said, So if he's got Derrick Henry, the best running back in the league, he's got better wide receivers, but Josh Allen, they thought the bills were going to take a step back Because they cut everybody after last year.

I picked them to miss the playoffs last year. They lost so many guys. They've even been inconceivable.

They had a better record than the Ravens. Why was he not the MVP?

If this was the NBA, we'd be going, Josh Allen needs more help. And Josh Allen's agents would be leaking stuff. They got to make a move. They need a star receiver.

And that's another thing I hate about the move, to be honest with you.

The ESPN move.

Yes. These guys get on TV every day and says, Are they wasting Yannis' career?

Yannis won a title already.

I know, but I'm saying they're wasting the Joker's career. And I'm saying- He won a title, too. They got to get LeBron some help. And I'm saying, Well, wait a minute. I don't remember you all saying that shit about me and Patrick Ewing. You all never got on TV and said, We're wasting Charles' birthday career in Philadelphia.

I was I'm saying it, but I was in a bar in Boston. I didn't have a microphone.

It drives me crazy because that's this thing now. If you don't win every year, they want you to move. They're like, Yana has got to move. They're wasting him. I'm like, Wait a minute. I was in Philly. I had no help. Patrick was in New York. He had no help. I remember you all getting on TV saying, help Patrick, help Charles. But on TV now, should Yannis want to lead Milwaukee? Should the Joker want to lead Denver? I'm like, damn, what happened? Well, you all have this new dynamic. I'm like, damn, I want to help in Philly. You all didn't never say Charles needed help. But now, every star, he's got to get out of there.

I know, but think about Dirk Nowitzky in 2011 as the best example this, where we could have done this whole cycle with him for four years after they lose that Warriors, and he stays, and he ends up winning there. And that's the best title anyone won in the last 50 years.

That's like two titles. Yeah. But there's this new thing now, Bill. When they see a great player, especially if he's in a small market, they're like, he's got to get out of there. He needs to move. I'm like, damn, where were you all when I was in Philly?

When I was going out there with Jeff and Jones, no disrespect.

When I was going out there, my new BOLD and Sheldon Jones. I remember you all saying, Hey, we got to get Charles from helping Philly.

Some of it's the people around the players, too. It's the agents, it's the handlers. They have a trainer now, and they're just constantly, You should be bigger.

You'd be a bigger star in a bigger market.

You got to get more money. You're better than this guy. You're better than your teammate. And then you start planting the seeds and you go. You mentioned the ESPN thing. I talked on a pot a couple of months ago, and I feel like I have a pretty unique perspective because I did the NBA show there and I saw how they do shows and how they prioritize the pregame, the halftime, the commercial breaks, giving people time to speak. And the reason you guys had the best studio show of all time, other than the talent, was that you had these producers that actually let it breathe, that gave you like eight, nine minutes at halftime in a row to have a conversation. Do you feel like you're going to be able to do that at ESPN? And what happens if you can't?

Well, number one, thank you for the compliment. We I don't know. This has been one of the worst. Tnt just sucks, to be honest with you, Bill. They made this deal. They haven't told us when we're going to work. They haven't told us how it's going to work because we've been talking behind the scenes. After the game, are we going to get any time or they're going to say, Hey, you guys got to go to SportsCenter?

Well, listen, they've always gone right to SportsCenter.

That's always how it's I've asked that question. You're right. That's the best part of our show. After the game, we can have conversation and have fun. Are they going to say, You guys got three minutes, five minutes, 15, 20, 30, 45, or are we going to go straight to SportsCenter? They haven't given us an answer whatsoever. Tnt, I think they sold the show and they haven't been non-communicable at all.

What do they care? They got paid. They Because the thing is with these shows, you can do the pregame show forever and it's fun, but it's basically like a podcast. You're guessing what's going to happen. The postgame is the secret sauce because you just watch the game, you're reacting to it. And that was when I did it, I would get mad because They didn't give a shit about hearing from us after the game. And it's like, well, we shouldn't be here then. Why are we on location? You're doing a four-minute segment with us.

Just setting up the game is the easy part. Now you can tell why a team won and a team lost, who played good, who played bad. That is the secret sauce. They have not said anything to us about, Hey, are we going to be able to do that after the game? And like I said, TNT didn't care. They just took... They think we're morons. If they think we don't think they got paid something, I mean, come on, we're not for it. Oh, yeah.

Also, they have a rule with the finals about on ABC, you have to get the fuck out of there and throw it to local news. So you're going to have to switch channels to watch you guys, which ain't nothing either.

I want to tell you something. What you just said, to me, it's going to be one of the biggest issues. I've been telling my friends, they're like, What do you think? I said, Well, number one, we're concerned about the whole ESPN thing as far as we have to go to the sports. I said, But I think the NBA got a big problem. I said, How are they going to tell people what night the games are on? I said, The games have been on 40 years, they've been on ESPN on Tuesdays, excuse me, on TNT on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

Right. And ESPN Wednesday, Friday, then Saturday night, then some Sunday.

But Saturday is gone because of Amazon. So when I met with NBC, they said, We're going to do games on Monday and Tuesday. And then when the NFL ends, we're going to do Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday. I think ESPN is going to do Wednesday and Friday. And I think Amazon is going to do Thursday and Saturday. But my thing is, how are regular fans going to like, Okay, it's Tuesday, especially when they start putting games- Where do I go? Well, because sometimes the game is going to be on Peacock, and it's not going to be on MBC. I think that's a huge dilemma for the NBA.

Guess what? They don't care. I agree. They got so much money, they're going to wipe their tears with cash.

Bill, I'm so glad you said that. I think it's a big deal because they just took all the money from all three networks. I don't think they give a shit about the fans. And I think this is going to come back to bite them, to be honest with you.

Well, if you talk to anybody from the NBA, as I know you have, how many years have they been complaining about how ESPN covers the league? I mean, at least 10, right? 10, 12, 15. We hate the discourse. We hate that they do that. And it's like, you just took their money again. You can't say anything. You took their money one more time. So now that's a new point.

Yeah, but they took the money, but also to take the money from NBC and Amazon. It's like, yeah, we're just going to take the money. And then the thing that's scary, this deal is for 11 years. So now people They're playing all they want to. For the next 11 years, they don't give a shit about the fans. They're like, If you all find the game, it's fine. Just make sure the check clears.

Well, I think Amazon is going to do a really good job because I think they've done a good job with football, and I think their attitude toward how they're going to cover it and how much attention. They're going to be fine. Mbc is going to do it like they did NFL.

I think they can all be fine. They just got to figure out how the regular fan are going to find it.

Right. Because that's a frustrating thing with NFL where you're like, oh, wait a second. It's Black Friday on Amazon. You're floating around.

We know the ESPN got the games on Wednesday, Friday. That's pretty stable. But okay, are the games on NBC or they're on Peacock? And again, what two nights is Amazon? They took TNT's nights Do they get TNT Tuesday?

But I lead past, too.

Well, wait a minute. So TNT, Amazon, you get TNT Thursday, but you don't get their Tuesday. That goes to MBC.

Yeah.

I know people think that's simple, but you should always try to make it simple for the fans.

Well, and then for you, it's going to be like, Where do you get you guys? Because that's the other piece people are going to care about. And then on top of it, you're going to be at ESPN. I'm sure there's going to be some back and forth with different people on the shows. You're not going to put up with it because you're old, you don't care. You're just going to go right back at everybody.

I think, listen, it's going to be an honor and a privilege to work for ESPN because they're the greatest sports network ever. I just hope that we get to do what we do, man.

Me too.

See, you're one of the few people who understand the points that I'm asking. Wait, we got to go to local news, or we got to go to sports center, or we got to do both?

The game just ended. How do I find you guys? Oh, I have to flip channels? Yeah. Wait, they're in commercial. Am I on the right channel? What's that?

You're one of the few people who actually understand that. They're like, Okay, we got to go to local news. We've never fucking had to go to local news before. We've never had to go to sports center.

But most of the people that produce these shows have never been on the shows. And when you've been on it, you understand the rhythm a bit differently. For whatever reason, Tim Kyla, your guy forever, he fundamentally understood how to make you guys succeed and that you guys needed time and you needed to breathe, and that was what made it special. Most people They don't see it that way. They don't understand it.

Now, I'm hoping that we get to breathe.

Yeah, you're going to have... Trust me, I did them a couple of years. You're going to have a two and a half minute halftime show on location at the finals. They were like, Wait, I just started I made my point. We're going to commercial again? What happened?

I've been able to scream at TNT people. I've done it live on air. I'm not done with my point. Hold that damn commercial, and I want to make my point because it was an important point. But like I said, man, I don't know. But I'm concerned. I ain't never going to get on your show or any show in live. I am concerned about going forward.

Well, I will say we've said goodbye to Inside the NBA, it feels like, for three straight years, and you guys are still on. You guys are like boxers that keep retiring. It's like when Ali retired over and over again in the '70s, and then he would fight again.

I really grew to hate the people I work for, to be honest with you, Bill.

I could tell.

No, because there's a way you treat people. We should not learn that we got fired or whatever from the Internet. Ernie Johnson Nothing deserves better. Literally, this is a true story. We were playing golf in the playoff. I was playing with my boy Alex and Underdog and Mike. We were literally in between shots, looking at the internet. One article comes out, TNT lost the package. But I got us, we lost the package. Another article come out, we kept the package. Another article come out, we lost the package. We're literally playing golf, and in between shots, we're reading the Internet. And then nothing happens. Nobody says anything. And I'm literally sitting at a house on a Friday night. I get a text from Van Pelt, Bob Myers, El Duncan, and Brian Wendhors. Welcome me to the family. This was a Friday night. Nobody's told us anything. I get this text from four ESPN people, Welcome me to the family. About two hours later, I get a call from TNT. Hey, this story broke. No shit. The show's going to ESPN. And I'm like, Well, you all had to negotiate something before It broke. How about a heads up?

I also don't understand how they negotiated without knowing if you were going to be on the show.

That's my point. That's my point, Bill. I'm sitting here like, Oh, welcome to the family. It was a Friday night. I was like, Wait, welcome to what family? Then I said, I got the call from TNT like two hours later saying, Hey, unfortunately, the story broke. Like, The story broke because you all got a damn deal. How about if you all sign the deal, call us for immediately and say, Hey, guy, we got a deal to trade you all. Show the ESPN. And that's one of the reasons I developed animosity toward them Like, Yo, just tell us. Because if he had to call us and said, You know what, guys, this is a bad deal. They want us to go from 1. 2 to 2. 5 bear in a year for 11 years. We can't afford that. That's all TNT had to say, Bill. And we would have said, We understand. That's not a great deal. But for us to hear from the Internet and ESPN people that we lost the package, that's just unprofessional. And I get mad for Ernie because Ernie is the godfather. Ernie Johnson should never have to hear from other people that he lost his gig.

Right. Well, he was also telling everybody, I don't want another job. This is where I want to end my career. I have these crazy ties with TNT and TBS in Atlanta, and I don't want to do anything else.

Well, so I'm with him on that. And I'll tell you the truth, Bill, the only reason me and Ernie decided to stay was the people TNT got to kept their jobs. So I met with Amazon, and I met with NBC, got a offer for more money from NBC.

I thought that's where you were going to go.

Well, I probably would have went there. They had a bunch of bullshit. They were talking about, not going to lie, they offered me more money. But when they sent the contract to me, it had Kentucky Derby, it had the US Open, Oh, see, I would have liked you on both of those. Yeah, okay. It had five appearances on Today.

I'm still intrigued.

Five appearances on Jimmy Fallon, the Olympics in '28 and '30. And I said, I guess you all didn't hear the part where I wanted to... Because I would tell you what's funny.

I liked all those things. I thought they made a good case.

I didn't like I'm not going to work more as I get older. I'm working less.

I would like to see.

Because what was really ironic about the contract, when we first started talking, they said, I was going to work two days a week, which I hadn't worked two days a week in 25 years. I said, You know what? Because I like the guys. Because the boss at NBC hired me at Turner. I got a lot of love for Mark Lazzari. I said, You know what? I can work Monday and Tuesday. I'm good with that. So I'm like, Okay, send me a contract. Let me take a look at it. But then by the time I got the contract, they're like, Well, once football over, you're going to work three days a week. That was my first red flag. And then when they put Kentucky Derby, US Open, Olympics 28 and 30, I said, Hell no. So then, The thing with Turner comes back and they're like, Guys, we can keep this show going and we get to keep everybody at Turner. Me and Ernie were like, Okay, that's best scenario. Because one of the things that intrigued me and Ernie about NBC, they told us we could bring all the people with us.

Yeah.

Which was me and Ernie's only concern. Because when me and Ernie met with NBC, they're like, You guys can bring anybody you want to. And I was like, We can bring everybody behind the scene. They said, We'll film this show in Atlanta, and you can bring anybody you want to. So that got me and Ernie's attention. But then the thing with ESPN came up, and we're Well, if we can stay the same and bring everybody with us, let's take that deal.

All right. Well, it sounds like you're still conflicted about it.

I'm not conflicted because 200 people are going to keep their job. They're like my family members. And that's all I really cared about. Because, Bill, I will tell you something. This was a very difficult couple of years for me mentally because I'm in the sports world my whole life. I ain't never been around a lot of real people. All my NBA friends and TB friends, they got a lot of money. And I'm blessed. I'm not being an ungrateful person I'm very blessed and thankful. But to be around my coworkers, TV people, who are going to lose their job, and to hear them talking about mortgage, taking their kids out of private school that they never had to worry about because we never, under any circumstance, thought that TNT was going to lose the NBA. But it was becoming increasingly clear. Man, we just fired a gazillion people from NBA TV, which was painful because I knew all those guys and people behind the scenes. But for the last, especially last year, but really the last couple of years, it was like, we might lose the NBA to be to look around people who I genuinely care about, to hear them talk about mortgage, to hear them talk about taking their kids out of private school and things like that, downgrading where they live, man, it was really painful for me because I'm in the NBA.

I ain't ever had one of my friends talk about mortgage and say, I got to downgrade my kids schooling. It was really painful for me as a person.

Yeah. Well, I think about the late night shows, right? As the late night air is ending like Colbert shows. 200 people work for that show. I mean, it's really He's just deciding how long he wants to go. 200 people are hinging on the decision.

And they act like these people can just go get another job. I said, It doesn't work like that. I said, Man, jobs. Job just on growing trees, especially in our community. Because if we fire those 200 people in Atlanta, number one, 200 people are going to have a job. They were talking about, well, if you go to Amazon, you got to move to California. That's a whole different animal. And I'm not even sure what an MBC decides to do their show at. So people act like, well, we can just go get another job. I'm like, It's not that It's simple. Even if Amazon want to hire you, how many people can just pick up and move to California? That's a different animal from an economic standpoint. Or the same thing, if MBC moves everything to New York, that's a whole another animal.

You in California could have been a reality show that could have potentially funded some of this, too. You living here, I think, would have been absolutely fascinating.

I would have never lived there.

I think that should have been part of the deal. It's like Amazon, but you have to live here? To pick a neighborhood, and you have to be an LA person.

They would have to really give me a really good condo, a house or something.

Bel Air? You could play Bel Air with Doc.

No, somewhere right by the studio. A nice condo, three bedroom. You can't have- I think they have those here. I'm a big believer. You can never have more than two people visiting at the same time. Any more than two people, you're crowded.

Oh, that's interesting. No matter how big your house is?

No, I'm not big on guests.

Yeah, that does get tough when you have kids. Well, aren't you staying at your kid's house right now?

I am. My daughter is a husband. So you're the guest? My two grandkids, yes.

All right. How old are the grandkids?

Three and two. Little Henry, he's three, and little Charlie, she's two.

So at some point, you got to break out the YouTube clips of you going Coast to Coast. There's some good YouTube mixes with you.

Right now, my life revolves around Ms. Rachel and Daniel Tiger. That's pretty much it right now.

Those are the kid shows, yeah.

Ms. Rachel and Daniel Tiger. That's pretty much it. And the rest of these are watching guard over the swimming pool. That's it.

That's an important job, though.

It's a very important job because, man, they were so cute in the beginning. Now, they won't sit still. They were so cute in the beginning. Just sit on your lap and you just kiss them a million times.

Once they can run, it's over. Oh, my God.

Once they start walking and running, all hair breaks. I need a nap every time I see them. Right after that. I do. You need a nap. It is amazing how they go from, Oh, you're so cute. But then once they learn to walk and run, they never sit still. It's crazy.

To wrap up, you have Philadelphia beating who in the Super Bowl?

I'm hoping it's the Buffalo Bills. I would like to see either Josh Allen or... I like Josh Allen a lot as a person. The Ravens. When you're a great player like Lamar and Josh are, you're on the shit list like me until you win the Championship. And it sucks because it's a team game, but when you're a great player, you get all the credit and you get all the blame. So I would like to see Josh or Lamar win the Super Bowl. I think Baltimore has a better team because their defense is better.

Slightly better coaching staff. Buffalo has a better offensive line.

Yeah, but they revamped their defense last year. But my eagles, man, they're loaded. Their defense got to grow up. But Joshua Lamar- So I had Buffalo over Green Bay before the Parsons trade. One day before that was my thing. Now you feel better about that, don't you?

It almost seems too easy now. Now it's like that Parsons trade.

The love kid got to play better.

True. He was hurt last year.

He was hurt. See, that's the thing that sucks about sports. He got hurt in the first game.

And then had two more injuries.

But once you get hurt, and people think when you come back, you're healthy. When you come back, you're not healthy. It takes a while to get back. And then he gets hurt again. But you know what? I give them credit. Hey, man, we did it in Philadelphia the last couple of years. That's why Howie is the best general, mind you. That goes back to what we're talking about earlier. Man, very Very seldom do you have a chance to win. Howie is like, I need a wide receiver. He went and got AJ. Then he like, We're not good enough. I need a running back. He goes out and gets Saquon. The packers like, Man, when you have a chance to win, you got to go for it.

But that was the frustration with Denver for me, with what they did with Jokuj the last two years, where they won the title, and they're like, Okay, we won a title. It's like, you have the best guy of this decade. Every year that this guy is on your team, you have to spend the most money you possibly can because this is fucking generational. This is a unicorn. And they didn't do it last year. They chipped out, I thought.

They did. But see, the problem they got now, they're trying to play catch-up. And I tell people this, You never catch-up. It might be too late because now they're not head and shoulders the best starting five. But they got rid of their two best players off the bench when they won the Championship.

Yeah, and some of that was financial.

I understand that. Dude, man, guys will give their right arm and leg to win the Championship. Your team going to be worth billions of freaking dollars. You're going to haggle over 10, 20, 30 million Think about that, Bill. Every NBA team is worth at least $2 billion.

Oh, my. Four now. At least four. The ceiling is four. Portland got 4. 25.

So think about this. You had a chance to keep KCP and Bruce Brown. Probably cost you another 30, maybe 40 million. Team going to appreciate 300, $400 million, especially if you win. You're probably going to make that money up if you go deep the playoffs. Man, if you got a chance to win, you better go for it. And they really wasted the Joker the last couple of years. But like I said, the problem they got now is they're not better than Oklahoma City. And I'm not sure they're better than the Rockets.

Yeah. If Thompson goes up a level, Houston could be in the two-spot. It's a bummer because I don't know. I was there for Bird of Magic. You were, too, in a different way. You played against them.

Magic, think about this. Hold on. Perfect example. Go back and look. This is what... When those guys had Bird, they bought in somebody every year. What about the Lakers? They bought in somebody every year. You can never stand pat when you win. The Celtics, they bought in one year.

And then the Lakers bring in Michael Thompson the next year to respond. They bought in Michael Thompson.

They bought in Bob McAdoo.

Sam Perkins. Sam Perkins.

That's what made the Lakers and the Celtics, the two greatest NBA franchises ever. Hey, we're not trying to win one championship. We're not trying to win two championships. We're not trying to win three. That's what made the Celtics and the Lakers the best franchises in NBA history. I think OKC might be wired that way.

They think of this long term, short term at the same time about how to build something that's seven, eight years and not two.

They're going to be the favorite Well, actually, your Celtics would have been the favorite the next five years if they didn't get hurt.

Yeah, but at least in the East.

Yes, in the East. But OKC, because they only got to pay those top three guys. And I'm going to tell you something, Hardenstein and Caruso, they'll give a hometown discount. And then they got more young players and damn draft Because I tell these guys, if I'm Hardenstein and Caruso, I'm not taking the extra $5 million to suck.

Well, that was the famous Julian Edelman story. When Jack Sabo was trying to sign him, and he basically took four million less to stay with... He's like, I'm playing with Tom braided. I'm going to factor that in.

If I'm going to play with those top three guys in Oklahoma City, if I can get five million from a shit team, or I can get three and a half. If I get three and a half, I'm going to make another million in endorsements because I'm on the best team in the NBA.

And playoff money, too, right? You get some of that, too.

I don't know Hardenstein and Caruso that well. They are really important to OKC. I guarantee you they'll take a hometown discount to stay because like I say, they're going to be favorite easily. Even if they don't win the Championship, they're going to be first or second the next five years easily.

Yeah. Well, that's the thing I never understood with Jokuj. In the old days, people were like, I get to play with Magic. I'm going to... Let me get to the Lakers to play with that guy. I don't understand why people didn't see Jokuj like that. I could play with that guy. It's the most fun guy in the league to play with. People felt that way about Duncan in the 2000s, right?

I think once they started trading players, they weren't trying to bring guys on.

They got the stink on them. All right. This was a good catch up, Chuck. Hey, brother. I'm glad you're well. It's always great to see you. I'm rooting for you at this next stop. We'll see how it goes. I'm going to bet on Barkley all the time.

I got a lot of love and respect for it, brother. Thanks for having me on. It's mutual.

All right. Great to see you. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to the one and only Charles Barkley. Don't forget about a new Rewatchables, our 400th movie that we've done. We did American Gangster. And then what else do I have? Oh, yeah. More podcast coming this week. At least one more, probably two, as we head toward week one of the NFL season. So stay tuned. We're going to keep the content coming. Don't forget about all the other Ringer football stuff we have in the works as well. I'll see you a little later in the week. Must be 21 plus in President's select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in President DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem? Call 100 Gambler or visit rg-help. Com. Call 188-789-7777 or visit ccpg. Org/chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp. Org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline ma. Org, or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support, Massachusetts, or call 1877-8 Hope, NY, or text Hope, NY in New.