Transcript of "Cillian Murphy"

Hi everybody, welcome to the cold open of this episode of Smartless. I am freezing. You know, it'd be great if Arnett was here to warm this cold open up a little bit.

I don't think he's available.

No, he's not available.

We should just start.

Let's just start.

Oh God, look at all these goozies on my arm. Welcome to Smartless.

Smart.

Guess what I just finished watching moments ago?

Um, a pizza pocket heat up in the microwave.

Oh wait, now let me try. Um, yeah, uh, it's something with Scotty. I don't have it yet.

Um, your zipper on your pants not be able to close.

Oh wait, I know what it is. It's the top button button on your trousers flying across the room and breaking a light bulb?

No, I just watched the first— literally 10 minutes ago, finished watching DTF St. Louis, the first episode. Oh, let me tell you, it is so good. It is right up my alley. And Jay, another incredible character by you. Oh, like, really, like, so different.

Really quick question, did you, did you say it's a ride up your alley?

To ride up your alley?

It's right up my alley. You've been saying it wrong for years, Will. Don't stop him now.

No, Right up my alley. The way it's shot and, of course, performed. You're brilliant. It's so good, Jason. I can't wait to see it. You're so good in it.

Writer-director.

I mean, that swing, just the shot of the swing. That's all I'll say. I mean, that's so smart. It's so cool.

And it gets real, real, real, real, real crazy.

Yeah, and the ending of the first episode, wow.

It's really good. Thank you for watching that, you sweet man.

It's so good.

You're so good.

Do you— I don't know if I've ever admitted this on this show before, but speaking of saying things wrong for years, Oh, shit. And I'll attribute this to not reading a lot. You know, I'm allergic to books, and I'm not proud of that because I feel if I had seen this written, I wouldn't have made the mistake all these years. But I've always thought that when you say the phrase, I'm just trying to make ends meet, I thought that was a phrase that one would say when they're saying, listen, I'm just trying to get by with just the bare minimum. I'm not being greedy. I'm not entitled. I'm just trying to make ends meet. Meaning I'm just looking for the part of the cow that doesn't cost a lot. I just need sustenance. I need some food. I'm looking for ends meat, like M-E-A-T, the end of the cow, the ass, which is not going to cost you a lot. This is what my stupid head—

This is what you're looking at right now.

I'm 57, and this was This was probably a couple years ago. I was 55 until I realized that it is ends of strings or whatever, creating a circle. You want these ends to meet and create a whole thing, which can mean something similar to, I'm just trying to make it all come together for myself.

You're trying to make, well, you're trying to be able to afford stuff. You're trying to make ends meet. You're trying to do stuff within your budget to make it work.

Yeah, it wasn't a proud moment for me, but I'm not— beyond admitting my flaws.

I'm just trying to think of, like, the gotcha headlines and the various social media stuff about this.

Oh, no, this will be cut. No, this is just for you, me, and your guest.

Well, we can't cut this. Speaking of, what kind of cut is that at the end of the cow that you're talking about? You're talking about flank steak.

Well, the flank is— it's often called the flank, where the end—

that's not the end.

But do you know that, like, I love— you know that. Remember, I love, like, sayings and their origin. Origination. What are you, stupid ass? Yeah, this is where they originated from.

Tough day for me. Go ahead.

Where they originated from, you know what I mean? And so remember I did the Saved by the Bell? I told you guys about Saved by the Bell.

You did an episode or like an arc?

No, no, where that saying comes from. Oh, remember the guy? People used to get buried. Remember I told you? Or they used to get buried alive and they didn't know it at the time because people were unconscious. They just thought they were dead, so they'd bury them. In these coffins. Then they dig them back up to reuse the coffins, and they saw these scratch marks. So they, so they're like, oh my God, we've been burying people alive. So they bury people alive, they tie a string to their toe, they, they, uh, put it through the ground and tie it to a bell, and you're saved by the bell if the bell goes off. And the person who had to sit there and wait to see if the bell went off worked the graveyard shift.

Wow.

Okay, and this, so this is what you thought Saved by the Bell was for years?

No, that is what it is.

It's not. It's a boxing thing.

Evidently it originated with this, JB.

That's right.

Really?

Yes, that's what I'm telling you.

Wait, so hang on. So, Will, you're taking— that's news to you and you're going with Sean?

That's news to me. I do vaguely remember Sean mentioning this before.

Yeah, well, that doesn't make it true. He's just repeating insanity.

I mean, I'm sure people could just look it up as they're listening to this right now. I don't know why we would.

That's where it comes from. Comes from—

we're gonna, we're gonna have our fact-checkers get on that while we're, while we're at it.

Fact-checkers now?

Yeah, yeah. So let's have them do that. Will, go ahead, introduce your guest, um, and let's get on with it. Shoot, Jason, this is a little runner that I've been having, trying to get Will panicked.

Did I ever get panicked about it?

No, I don't think it worked. It's my guest, and I'm so excited. And Willie, I think you're going to be excited too. I think I remember, I think it was you telling me that you're just a kooky fan for this fella, and I don't I'm not gonna blame you because I am too.

Gentlemen, I'm not gonna care.

No, no.

Great, let's start. Let's start.

It's gonna be a great hour for you, Sean.

No, you will. Everybody, everybody freaks on this guy for very good reason. Um, have you searched for the answer to the age-old question, what should I do after pursuing rock stardom and being a lawyer? Well, our guest this week has the answer. You become one of the finest actors on the planet. You go out there, you work with the best directors in the world, you turn in some of the most powerful and moving performances ever, and then you grab yourself an armful of awards, including the little gold guy named Oscar. He's done 3 careers worth of work already in his 30 years of performing, and it's been theater and film and television. But one of those television projects is now a film, and he's here to talk to us about that. Gentlemen, please welcome Tommy Shelby himself, Mr. Cillian Murphy. Oh my God, yeah, here with us today.

How's it going?

How Cool. So nice to meet you.

Hey, man.

Nice to meet you. That was a lovely introduction. Thank you.

Right? I worked on it for minutes. Where— what time is it for you today now?

It's like nearly 6 PM in London.

Oh, all right. Now, does that— if you're like me, you're about an hour away from sleep. Are you in comfy socks? Are you getting ready to get horizontal? Or are you about to start your night?

I do start thinking about bed from, yeah, about half past 5. Yeah, that is, that is true.

So we're keeping you up right now.

Yeah, well, no, I mean, I'm just thinking about it. Yeah, yeah, you know, but I will be approaching— I get— I'll be in bed by like half 9, right?

You're good, you're good.

We're all in the same.

So yeah, I think the 4 of us are very good at relaxing and taking it easy. Now, is that because we're of a certain age, or is it because we've all really been good at, uh, getting after it and we're kind of, we're kind of done with that? Yeah, right. I did it, and now I want to enjoy, uh, the relaxation of wisdom and age.

I, I mean, what do you guys think? What's, what's, what's your—

well, I, I'm 100% agree with Jason, although I'm just going to ask you, Killian, is like the having— I'm doing theater right now, and I know you've done a lot of theater, and it's like all of a sudden you have to retrain your brain to have the most energy at 8 PM.

Yeah.

You know, and it's like of the whole day, you have to have most of your energy at 8 PM. And boy, it's rough.

Are you going on stage tonight?

Tomorrow. My quote unquote week starts Wednesdays.

And he's doing a one-man show, Killian. I think you've done one of those, haven't you?

I certainly have, yeah. Wow. Good man.

It's a lot.

It's like the fucking Everest of acting. That's what I call it. It's pretty rough.

Did you ever have— well, Shauny, I haven't asked you. I'll ask you both at the same time. Has there been a wipeout yet? Like a total— 'cause that's my fear. Like there's no net. There's no actor you can find the eyes of and sort of communicate silently. I have no idea what I'm supposed to say next. Throw me a line.

Yeah, my line the other night was, um, uh, he tells me— the line is he tells me two kids came forward to confess to it, it was an accident. That's the line. And three shows— three or four shows ago, literally on stage, he tells—

uh, uh, oh no, he, uh, a four-wheel slide.

It's just unbelievable. I mean, you feel like it's 20 minutes long and I'd go, teenagers ran their car into him, killed him. And then I just started—

By the way, I'm sure the audience probably did not know this.

No, I know, but—

And for you it seemed like interminable, like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But isn't the line you have forgotten linked to the line that follows it?

Yes, of course.

So you can't just improvise the line you can't remember because that doesn't shine any light on the next thing you're supposed to say.

But you do know the kind of the context. You just kind of forget the word order. So then you paraphrase until you get back on the train.

Yeah, you get back on.

So you got right back on and it was all right.

Yeah, yeah, it was fine.

Billions, any nightmare like that?

Yeah.

You know what, you know the way when you're doing theater, it's like you got like the left-hand side and the right-hand side. You got the sort of stage manager side of your brain and you got the acting side of your brain, right? So you got the stage manager side going, "Right, you dropped the prop back there, so you gotta go back and pick up the prop," while you're saying the lines.

That's right.

And they're acting similar, they're running parallel. So you got this kind of management in your head going, "Well, we gotta fix this," and then the other side is talking. I did probably, but I was— it was like I quite liked not having to rely on the terrified eyes across the stage to some other actor saying, "Can you pick up the fucking knife that was not supposed to—" So I quite enjoyed it. But what I did find, and I don't know about you, Sean, I could not sleep after it. I could not go to sleep. Oh, yeah. It's been rough.

Really. Just wired. Yeah.

Absolutely. It was like being thrown out of a helicopter. I could not sleep.

How are you about the folks coming backstage and wanting to say, to congratulate you and talk a little bit? Like, are you— I would imagine that I'm obsessed with this. I know, because I don't want to be fucking bothered for the most part at any point in the day.

This will keep you from doing Broadway. This very thing will keep you from doing Broadway.

I'm with you though, Jay.

But I just feel like I would feel burdened to make the person feel comfortable. Right. Backstage, and I would just feel their awkwardness, and I would feel like I need to host them now, and I need to— just because I don't want people to feel uncomfortable. So I'm still working, I'm still on. And do you feel that, either one of you guys, with that moment? Cillian?

Yeah, I would be— I think when I was younger, I would always be up for the, like, "Come back to the dressing room and we'll have a drink and we'll go out." Then as I got older, I just couldn't fake it, I think, any longer. Yeah. And then— but equally, I couldn't sleep. So I didn't know what to do. Like, I didn't go for a long walk, have a bath.

Because of the adrenaline, you mean, still?

Yeah. And then go to the pub. I didn't want to go to the pub. Sit alone drinking, not a good idea. So what do you— like, what do you do? I don't know what to do. Especially in the town. I didn't know what to do.

Yeah. Well, can I ask you this? This is another thing I'm fascinated with, and you guys plug yours. You've heard me twat on about this before, but is it the same practice overseas there that it is apparently in New York where if you are famous, even pseudo-famous, you are obligated to go backstage and pay your respects and say hi, even if the actor— even if you don't know the actor any of the actors and they don't know that you're there. Yeah, like, is that apparent? What I've heard is that it's very rude to just watch the show and leave if you're of any sort of, uh, notoriety. Is that, is that the same thing in over there?

Do you guys go back?

Do you guys go back? Sometimes. I'm— I—

my other half makes me go back.

So you'd prefer not to, but you recognize there is a, there is a practice, there is a tradition, there's an obligation.

There is.

Yeah, yeah, there's like a little pressure. Like, if they know that you're in the audience because the stage manager comes up and says, I would love to say hi, or—

Yeah, they do that, of course, then you do that. That's just, that's just courteous. But if you don't know the person and they haven't made that connection, I think you're well within your right to just sort of—

Yeah, I mean, I've had people come that don't, that don't come back. I don't pick—

I don't think anything about it, even if they've— they, they're not in house seats or anything like that. So there's no way for them to assume that you know that they're there. I went to see Sean in previews.

I went to see Sean in previews. I didn't tell him, and I just left. I didn't even go and say hi to him. Oh, it wasn't until we all went together that that I went backstage. Not true, Sean.

Not true. So, Killian, it's the same thing overseas as far as the practice? Yeah, I mean, I can't— people do.

I remember once I was doing a show in New York and I had a night off like you have, Sean. And at the time, John Hurt was doing Crap's Last Tape, and I went to see the play and it was unbelievable. And it was, you know, it was John Hurt. And the stage manager came up and said, said, would you like to go back and meet Mr. Hurt? And I went— I was doing a show at the same time, and I thought, would I like— right, John Hurt came back to see me. No, I wasn't comparing myself to John Hurt, but I went, you know what, I think he's probably a bit tired, I'm gonna just leave. So I just left. And then afterwards I went, you fucking idiot, why did you not go back and meet John Hurt? He's like one of my acting heroes, right? But I didn't because I felt he might be a little tired.

And it's like, you're famous, I'm famous, so I thought I'd come back and say hi. That's, that's the thing that sort cringes me out about it, but I hear that it's actually the opposite, that it's— You should bring it up more often, Jay.

Yeah, you should. I don't know.

Wait, I want to hear about Cillian's musical career. I didn't know this about you. Can you expand on that a little bit? Yeah.

Well, it seems to be— Excuse me. It seems to be quite common, doesn't it, that there's a lot of frustrated musicians in acting? I've encountered lots of them. Yeah, it's initially what— I'm sure there's probably some of you guys are among them, but I— that's all I wanted to do from the very beginning was play music. And when I saw you, Jason, was that the Radiohead show? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, and then obviously it didn't work out. And so I kind of moved into theater, I think, for to try and get that live experience, you know, that connection with an audience that you get when you play music. And then I just— that just became the main thing. But it was always music, and I'm still obsessed with it. Are you?

My first love. I didn't know that. Are you in a band? I'm sorry. Forgive me.

No, I mean, why would you expect me to? He was with his brother. And is it true? Is the story— this is Wikipedia facts, so forgive our rigorous journalism skills. But you guys had a band together, and then there was a record label that wanted you to sign, but you were like, "This smells like maybe an overreach, and so let's not sign." And then things kind of transitioned into theater, and that became your passion. Was that kind of the way it went?

More or less, yeah. More or less. Like, it was— my brother was still in— he was playing keys in the band, and he was only 16 or something when we were offered the record deal. So my parents said, "Absolutely." verboten. You're not, like, ruining your life. You— they said to me, I can ruin my life. But then we just didn't— but Paddy, we're gonna protect. Yeah. So we— it just all kind of fell apart. Yeah. But, um, and then I'd never been to the theater before that, and then after that I saw a play in Cork City where I'm from, which was like Orange. Exactly. Yeah. And it was a Promenade version of that play, and absolutely absolutely, like, I just— it was the greatest thing I'd ever seen.

Had you seen the film before that?

Not at that— it was banned in Ireland. Oh, that was banned in Ireland for the first time. I saw it was— I bought a VHS copy of it in Canada. Wow. Wow.

Yeah, yeah, that's about my grandpa. We love it in Canada. We love it. My grandfather's from Dingle. My grandmother is really from County Kerry.

Yeah. Oh man, I mean, uh, I spent a lot of time in, in Dingle and around. It's beautiful, right? It's like my favorite place in the world.

Oh yeah, it's beautiful. Johnny, have you been over there? Yeah, just once. Um, I, I, it's just abs— to Dingle, I mean, to Ireland a couple times, but to Dingle just once. I still have a— I still— we still have cousins, like distant cousins, I think, that still live there.

Oh man.

But yeah, it's really—

I thought you were going to say I still have a sweatshirt that says, uh, I got this Dingle Barry. Uh, So the first time you really experienced the theater is when you saw "Clockwork Orange" on stage, yeah? Is that what your testimony is, Julia?

Do we have your answer right? Yeah. Well, how did that moment go? Because your parents are both educators, yes? Correct, yeah. And so this conversation of, "Hey, I've got good news and bad news." and even better news, I'm stopping my pursuit of rock and roll and I'm going into theater. Were they buoyed by that or were they like, no, Cillian, were they all right with it?

You mentioned I had a very short flirtation with law. I did like a year of a law degree. Failed, like, abysmally. And then I tried to get the repeats, and then I got the repeats, and then I got a part in a play. So I think by that stage, Aidan kind of gone, like, "Whatever. He's gonna do his thing." You know, I was 20 then, so that's when you're meant to make mistakes, isn't it?

Yeah, and sort of declare, "I'm not really sure, but I'm following some instincts, and those are gonna change." Listen, Cillian, I'm continuing making mistakes, and I'm 55.

Yes, the old time. Right? I am, as I said the other day, I'm firmly in the student section in life. I've finally come to that realization that I'm like, it's okay.

Well, your tan and the ceiling fan looks like you're doing all right right now.

Yeah, it is. I know it's really going. I'm sorry about that. I had to walk around and find the best place to get internet. I'm not kidding. Checking out what had the best. It's right here.

We've got a monkey on a wheel, you know, keeping the—

the Wi-Fi going. But I'm curious about— I'm curious about you getting your— deciding to, to try to get a law degree, like that, that decision. And then while you're doing that, thinking the whole time, wait a second, I'd rather be doing theater, like I've been affected by this, I've got this thought. Is that kind of— how did that all kind of transpire?

Uh, I think I just had that natural inclination to perform, which I'm sure you guys are familiar with, you know, just from the very early age. I just I'm quite a shy person, but I really enjoy getting up on a stage. I hate getting up on stage as myself, but I love getting up on stage as someone else or playing music.

Isn't that a weird thing where, you know, I think all 4 of us are, you know, proudly private people. We don't— we're not shy per se because of what we do. But like, isn't it an interesting thing where we'll sit there in front of a camera and be exposed to millions and millions of people, you know, wanting to hoping in a perfect world millions of people are going to watch what I am doing. Yet we sort of shy away from being, you know, the center of attention often when we go out or even when we go out to promote that thing that we want people to see. We're sort of like, I mean, I'll speak for myself, it's like, oh, I got to go out and talk about it over here and over there and kind of light my hair on fire. It is sort of the two things are kind of at odds with one another.

Well, one's controlled and one isn't.

Yeah, that's a very good point. That's true.

That's true. What's your favorite way, Killian, to interact with fans? Like, when is it comfortable for you? I think I know what my answer would be.

Well, tell me yours, because— tell me yours.

I feel if it's one-on-one and them us talking is not going to cause a larger sort of spectacle and cause a scene. Like, I don't want to embarrass myself, my kids, them, you know, create a— so like in an elevator, if it's just me and one person and, you know, and we can have a little conversation as opposed to, oh, take a picture here, and then people walking by look at what's going on here. Oh, maybe I should get a picture too. Oh yeah, I recognize that person. Like, and then it becomes a thing. And then, yeah, I don't know. I like sort of I prefer the one-on-one stuff.

What about you? I'm the same, yeah. I love a chat. I love when we have a real chat and someone has really enjoyed something you've done. Particularly, like, you know, we've all been in shows that have run a long time and people love— the people are very invested in characters, right? And so you have to acknowledge that investment and that they've spent that much time with your characters. And I love those conversations, you know? I don't like when stuff gets, like, fetishized. He's going to the shop to buy milk. Oh my God. Yeah, he's just like us. Right, right, right. But I love it. I love a conversation. Right. And we will be right back.

And now back to the show.

Are you able at times to have the same kind of experience with your characters that some of your fans might? In other words, are you able to watch what you do and enjoy it from an audience point of view, or can you not get the separation from your experience inside the character?

That's a great question, and I'd love to hear what you guys think about it.

Well, start with, like, do you watch your own stuff, or are you an actor that— —because I know both. Both very, very good actors that watch themselves and learn from that, and then others that they can't and they won't.

Well, it's different jobs sometimes. Like this Peaky Blinders film, we had the premiere last night in Birmingham.

I just watched it two nights ago. It's incredible.

Incredible.

I can't wait to see it. It was very cool, and— But I was producer on that, so I've seen the thing like 500 times. You know, I like— it was a very different kind of experience watching it too, you know, when you just turn up as an actor for hire and you do your work and then you see it. And some stuff I've never seen at all, and some stuff I'm immensely proud of. But again, I mean, I feel like I try to move forward with everything, then it's like about the next thing rather than going backwards. What about you guys? What's your take on it? Do any of you sit around watching your work endlessly? No.

No, that's how I wake up every morning.

I can't get out of bed without it. That's your alarm. What about, like, on set? Will you ever watch a little bit of playback? I'll definitely do that. Even if it's the beginning of the production, just to get a sense of how you're coming across, how they're lighting you, the lenses, or just to get a feel of the tone of it?

Occasionally, particularly for technical stuff, like, you know, stuff that's technical or stunts or whatever. But no, I would never go back and look at, like, like big emotional stuff. But the producing thing has been interesting because it takes the curse off it a little bit. Like, you know, you, you look at it and you just go, oh my God, that's how you look. And then you just go, right, but it's important for this character to do this, and this guy's got to enter here, and she's got to say this, and we've got to cut here. And then, and then it takes the curse off it.

Sure. Well, you look at you and you look at it through a different lens, obviously, right? So you just like this thing That I did last year, I spent a lot of time having to watch different cuts and stuff, and eventually got to a place where I got over watching myself and was actually able to watch it really objectively about, "Wait, are we telling the best version of the story? We should go back. Are we telling the best version? Is this the best take?" All these kinds of things, you know? And it did, as you say, sort of break the curse a little bit. I was no longer watching my performance. I was watching a bigger— That's a bigger thing.

No vanity, just sort of being an audience member.

Zero. Zero.

I always think I'm slightly better looking than I actually am. And then I'll watch it, I'll go, "Nope, Ben. No, you're not. You're not at all, actually." Turn it off. Not even close to being what you thought you looked like.

I know. Well, Cillian, was there— Speaking of music and then law and all this stuff, was there ever a moment Where— and thank God you didn't— but was there ever a moment where you thought, "Yeah, maybe this acting thing, that— let's put that in the bin as well. Let's try career path number 4 and go into industry X or occupation Y." Did you ever think about giving up on doing this?

No, really, after a period, you kind of like, you burnt your bridges, I think. There was nothing else available, really. And during the fallow periods, obviously you get really cranky and, "What the fuck is that?" But, and I don't, like, I'm not a writer. I'm definitely not a writer. And so I didn't have that, but I would go and play music in the kind of fallow bits or just, you know, just go and just watch movies and read books. But it, I didn't know, I never got to the stage where I thought, I thought, "Ah, fuck this." But I did— whenever stuff started to kind of dry up in film or television, I was very lucky to have a friend of mine called Enda Walsh, who I made an awful lot of theater with. And we did some really great plays. He gave me my first ever play— part in a play after I saw A Clockwork Orange when I was, like, 19 or 20. And so I continued to work with him, making, like, new plays. Throughout my 30s and 40s, and that kind of kept me sane, I think. You know, when this stuff kind of just— people aren't calling, you know?

Wow, that's great. That's great. So you established, like, so long ago, this collaboration, and you've managed to sort of keep it going for all these years.

Yeah, I haven't done a play in a while now because it's kind of become a little terrifying to me. Honestly, I'm a little scared.

Is it because you're worried about Jason Bateman coming backstage and saying hi after the show? Is that why? That's not what's keeping you away.

Kellyanne, it's me again. I just— I've come back for one more night.

I want every theater to put up Jason's picture backstage and do not let this guy back here.

Super eager, will not leave.

So you start going to try to do it and they're like, no, no, we're good.

It's the main reason I did this podcast, so that we could talk about it, actually send up the warning.

Um, is there— is there something that you have Is there some sort of advice that you have— you've gained with your experience now that you wish you could go back and tell that dude back then that, "Don't worry about the fallow periods. It's gonna be—" Is there something that you wish you would have known then that would have made those ups and those downs a bit more tolerable? Yeah.

This is a great question.

I mean, aside from, "Don't worry, you're gonna win an Oscar one day. Hang in there." Yeah. You know?

Yeah, that would definitely lighten the mood.

Yeah. I don't know. I think it's that thing about overthinking stuff, you know, overthinking it, over-intellectualizing everything and not sticking to your instinct, I think, is the key thing for artists. Key. What is that?

I know, but what is that healthy balance? Because I've always heard that with everything in life, with all of us. I think we've all heard somebody say, ah, you're overthinking it. But like, isn't— how do you know what the difference is between overthinking and just—

An appropriate amount of thinking.

And just using the intelligence that you've been working on, you know? It's like, we work hard to be smart, or at least we think that we're smart. And so how do you know when to pull back on that?

I just don't know. Well, what's your guys' approach to like prep then, for example? Because sometimes I would get so— over— it would just take up everything and everything. We're all consuming. But then the whole point when you get into a scene is that you have to be completely free of all that. So it's kind of counterintuitive or counterproductive to have all of that prep sometimes. But yet you think your duty is to do all of that.

So what have you arrived at? It's shifted for me.

I was different from Jason because I was blown away that— and maybe you do this too, Will— do this too, Will, is like, I make sure I'm off book completely from the first time I step on set or walk on in the rehearsal room or whatever it is. Because if I have my book in my hand or whatever, I just can't be free, like you're saying, Killian, to explore and be— Where Jason has said in the past— It's total opposite. Where you don't make choices, you just literally memorize the words, and then you work on it in rehearsal.

But I don't even memorize the words because I— my, pardon the term, process, when I memorize, has a lot to do to do with my imagination of kind of how that's going to kind of go. And I don't like to decide or start to approach a decision of how I'm gonna do something until I see and understand what the other actors are gonna be doing and what the director's looking for and how the scene is blocked and where camera's gonna be and all that stuff. Because if I predetermine how I'm gonna do something and what my faces are gonna look like, you know, it might not work with what the other people are doing.

You've got that book of faces. I know you've got that book of Polaroids.

Oh, yeah, I've got those memorized.

I started doing— I started memorizing in really monotone ways. Truly, I started memorizing monotone way and recording myself. This is true. And with a very monotone voice so that I had zero inflection and crossing out all stage direction and just taking all of that away. And I did get into a situation, I was working on this thing and I got there and they're like, "Now you've got to go and get the thing on the other side of the room." I'm like, "Oh, do I? I didn't even know that." You know, but because I— But actually, it was very helpful because it just happened very organically. I hadn't thought about that. And so, it's really shifted as I've gotten older how I look at it, and my preparation is so much different now than it was. And also, JB, I think about when we used to do Arrested Development, for instance, it was much more— Sean, it's a TV show.

Yeah, it's a TV show. It used to be a band. Sean's never seen it. We got sued by them.

I think for when you're— I used to think about prepping to do comedy, especially because it was so quick and it would happen so— that it didn't serve me, certainly, and I know that you were similar in this way, J.B., 'cause we did a lot of scenes together, that it was— you just kept it— it was all kind of just at the surface until you got there.

Right, because that puts— that increases my odds of reacting to you like the audience is experiencing it.

Yeah, it's so much about rhythm in comedy in that way.

Rhythm is the big thing, I think. I think the meaning can come after the rhythm, or I guess for you guys, like, if the comedy or the gag or the bit, that comes after. But, like, if you get into a rhythm in a scene, and I guess if you have a predetermined rhythm, then how are you gonna lock in with anyone else? You can't. You can't. And you can't—

You need to stay nimble to allow for shit to happen.

But I do think it's different for theater because I would be the same as you, Sean. Like, with a theater piece, I would be completely off book when I get to— Yeah. Rehearsal.

But you also have— and here's the difference. You also have in theater, by the time you get there and you're in rehearsal, I mean, Sean, I know you, for instance, in this and also for Good Night, Oscar— what a show!— that you were completely off book. Yeah, I do. But then you get into previews, and now you've got a couple of weeks of previews. And changes. And it changes, and that starts to eat away at all your predetermined stuff that you have. So you don't have that luxury when you're making a film. Or making a show. It's— the performance is the one— is that day.

And that's it. Yeah, it's funny. You know, it's funny. There is this one line where I reference a very famous musical in this current show. And one of the producers of this famous musical came to the show and didn't like that we mentioned his musical that he produced. So, it's a 75-minute monolog I did. It's just me. And so, we had to change the one word to another musical. And so, "From the time you started," all I thought about from the time the curtain opened was that one word I had to say.

And make sure to get it right.

And I was like, "Oh, shit!" "From the time you started." Yeah, I was like, "Thanks a lot, dude." Yeah.

All right, um, uh, Cillian, 28 Days Later. Um, that was, uh, first film? No.

No, I'd done a few films in Ireland, kind of small independent films in Ireland.

This is the one that— What a film. Yeah. Put you on a lot of radars. I guess so, yeah. Yeah. And did it feel like, "Okay, I've got a little bit of wind at my back now, and this might work out." Yes? Or—

Yeah, yeah, I think so at that stage. The film, like, we never expected the film to do well, and it did well.

But you did have Danny Boyle. I mean, you knew your odds were good, right?

They were good. They were, 'cause he's a master. And I had, like, posters of his films on my wall in my bedroom growing up, you know, before I ever became an actor, 'cause they were just so cool, like Trainspotting and Shallow Grave. I love Trainspotting and Shallow Grave. I mean, it's a masterpiece. Piece. And, um, but the thing about it was that zombie genre was— wasn't very cool at the time, or wasn't really like— there hadn't been a kind of a zombie thing, right? And even though this is technically like an infection, they're not undead. But anyway, at that time that we shot it, like, it was the summer of 2001, and then, then obviously like 9/11 happened, and then I— but before that, SARS had happened, and then And then obviously, all those years later, COVID happened, and it became this kind of meme. It's very prescient writing, very good writing. And people went nuts for it, the original movie. So, yeah, it was a great start. But I went through the wringer for that movie. Danny, I had like 5 or 6 auditions for that to get the part, 'cause I'd done very little at the time.

I kind of knew it was a real substantial script. Alex Garland wrote the script. And Danny directing it.

Great writer.

He's such a great writer and an amazing director.

Amazing director. What was the moment from your last audition? When did you find out that you got it after going through all the auditions and being like, "Jesus Christ"? You remember that moment?

You remember where you were?

I do, actually. I was in Stansted Airport in the queue to get a Ryanair flight back to Dublin. And Danny called me, and I had to do one of those unbelievably contained celebrations where you drop my bag and sit down and kind of— But, um, yeah, it was massive for me, that movie. It's fucking 23 years ago or something.

Wow. Now, he talks often, doesn't he, about energy over perfection? Do I have that right? His sort of— his MO on set? Can you explain what he might mean by that? What his direction, his environment is like, what that set is like, what his style is like?

Sounds about right, yeah. He's incredible energy and passion for it. Like, he never stops moving. He never stops— Like, he's on every single element of the set. And it's constant ideas, constant— He's constantly pushing, you know, and really pushing the actors and pushing every department. And I absolutely loved that at that age. I don't think I'd been in, you know, working with someone who was so coherent in their vision for the film, if you know what I mean.

Yeah, sure. Just full enthusiasm and just knows all four corners of what this scene's supposed to do and how it's supposed to be done.

Yeah. And it's infectious, and every time you think, "Oh, that was pretty good," like, you know, you're off again. And we shot that on domestic cameras, like these little— Do you remember in the early 2000s everyone had these little cameras with, like, cards in them and stuff? So they were all, like, stuff you could buy.

Like camcorders almost.

Yeah. Yeah, they were slightly more advanced. I can't remember what the format is, but— Anyway, it was just one of those movies that kind of clicked, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. A style that I would imagine is— is it wildly different than, you know— what an incredible collaboration you've had with Christopher Nolan. Yeah, I was gonna get to that. Incredible. That, from what I understand, what I've heard, is a more exacting and contained and deliberate approach. To the execution? Yes or no? And, you know, to the extent you're comfortable talking about it, 'cause I would assume that, you know, environments on sets— Well, not assume, I know. They're often private, you know, individual environments that are weird to re-describe. But it just strikes me, having— Not many actors get to work with the same director 6 different projects. I'd imagine you guys have a bit of a shorthand and a— a real comfort in each other's style. Oh, yeah.

I mean, I've learned so much from Chris. He's completely kind of shaped my whole career. I mean, it's very clear, like, working over 20 years. But he's absolutely remarkable. He is incredibly rigorous, incredibly precise, but within that, there's fantastic freedom. You know, there's only ever one camera, and there's Chris, and he's got this tiny little monitor that he has, like, puts back— Never two cameras. Rarely, unless there's a big set piece, you know? But he has this tiny little thing, again, from like the '90s, that he watches, this shitty little playback from the thing. But he rarely is watching it because he's right beside the camera watching you. And you'll never leave it. He'll never leave a scene unless he feels like, you know, you're happy and he's happy. And it's— I can't really explain how wonderful it is, how focused he is, how fast it is, but yet it never feels fast. Like, we shot Oppenheimer in 59 days or something like that. Wow. With all that scope.

I know. Amazing.

So do you think that that speed or that efficiency just comes as a result of him really being precise about knowing what he wants, what he needs? He's properly prepared, and he doesn't hang around longer than he's gotten what he wants for that particular shot. Shot, and off we go.

Exactly. I mean, he's written the— he's written the thing, and he knows every single frame. He storyboarded it all in his head. So it's— and the thing about Nolan movies is, if— when there used to be DVDs, there was never any extras because he shoots the script. The script is the script. There's no deleted scenes, there's no extra— it's the script. And he finishes every movie like ahead of schedule, under budget.

Yeah. Did you— do you feel having him— yeah, it's pretty remarkable. Having him right next to camera, and obviously you guys, because you've worked so much together, there is a comfort there. Do you get a comfort of having— Do you feel that comfort of having him right there next to camera, close to you?

Yeah. There's no such thing as video village or, like, monitors. It's like when I stand next to you, Will.

Yeah. You just comfort.

You can see Will's shoulders just drop.

No, we're talking about comfort. But I mean, so then I'm like, I'm gonna ask you, so you feel that, and you must, that's, yeah, it's evident in your work that you do with him, and so I wonder if when you go and you do work with other directors, do you ever feel that, like, sort of sense of, not detachment, but sometimes if it is further, they are further away, or they are at video village, or you're not, and you don't have that sort of that proximity, that relationship that's so close, do you feel the difference sometimes? And I don't mean this to disparage other directors, clearly.

Sure, no, I understand. No, I think it's like what we were discussing earlier, you know, you over time, you— I think it's our duty to be really, really flexible, isn't it? Because if you come on one set with us and like, this is the only way I will work, some directors love to rehearse, some directors don't love to rehearse, some directors love have everybody look at the monitor and chat, and others, you know, don't do that. So you have to kind of bend to their approach, I find, and And I love doing that. I don't particularly love rehearsal on film, but if there's a director that insists on it, I'll go for it, you know? Because it's their vision, and I'm just there to serve the vision. So, I kind of like that, the adventure of it. And I'm sure you guys are all the same. You know, it's like— It's always like a new circus, isn't it? Every time you get a new job, it's like this new circus, and what's it going to involve? So I like that. For sure.

We'll be right back.

And back to the show.

How do you like affecting the health of that circus, the harmony of that environment, depending on your level of influence on that set? Like,— you know, just even the Nolan films, for example, that there are some where you're a part of an ensemble, and then like Oppenheimer, you're the lead and you're— you can affect the environment. Peaky Blinders, you know, again, sort of the captain and also in a producerial position as well. Do you enjoy that sort of leadership position, or do you like to disappear into just or just be sort of part of the team and be like a soldier?

I think it's a bit of both, really, isn't it? I feel like— because it's funny you say soldier, because the whole film set is based off the old military kind of setup, isn't it? Like, with your director and your first AD and your second AD and your third AD. You know, everyone's got number one on the call sheet, number two on the call sheet, you know? And it has to work like that. And, you know, everything comes from the top, I think, you know? The atmosphere and the ambiance and the vibe And the energy always percolates down from the leaders, like the producers and the director and the lead actors, down to how everyone— So I think it's always nice to— I love to have a set where people are having a bit of fun and a bit of crack, and crack in the Irish vernacular.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. We were with you.

We were with you. Okay, good.

Oh, boy.

Cillian Murphy loves crack.

We've got our— yep. Killian, how do you— speaking about healthy, how do you stay so fit? You're always like— you're— I know you're younger than us, but I think it's crack, is it not? He just told us. Because you have kids too, right? You're constantly working, you're constantly on the go, and— but you're in like incredible shape.

Will looks pretty good there. He does.

Oh, thanks, man. That's bronzer.

A lot of that's bronzer. Yeah, it is.

I just sprayed it on. No, I think I think all of you guys are very well maintained. I think it's kind of part of the job, isn't it?

Unfortunately or fortunately, I don't know. Well, there's another part of that Wikipedia incredible hints I got. There was, is it true that you, to avoid mad cow disease, you went vegetarian? Then you started eating meat to bulk up for Peaky Blinders. And then you stopped eating meat and you're back to vegetarian for— it didn't give me the reason for the return. But do they have it right so far?

That's more or less accurate. I met my wife when I was 20, and she's been a vegetarian all her life. So I was kind of— became a vegetarian then. And then I did kind of— so it was more out of convenience than of any real sort of of, you know, um, uh, opposition to it. But now I, I do do it because I, I, I, I don't really want to eat animals, or, you know, um, but, and if you were to, you would make ends meet.

Thank you, Will.

And that's our episode, everybody. Thank you for joining us. Wonderful book. We have made the two pieces of string connect at the bottom. Um, uh, no, but you know, that whole, that whole bulking up thing, uh, and I'm all over the place, but, um, I saw this documentary once because I, I went I went vegetarian for a year to try to lower my cholesterol, and it only dropped 1 point after 12 months of eating nothing but— Oh, I remember that. Sticks and berries, yeah. Wasn't that long ago. But I watched this documentary while I was doing it, and they made a point that you don't need meat to bulk up because they made a point that, like, gorillas are vegetarians, rhinoceros, giraffe, like, these huge animals, all they eat are leaves.

And, uh, you're absolutely right there. And I should just— the update is that I am now like— I've always been pescatarian and I don't eat any meat. So that's the Wikipedia update.

So the fish—

we'll add that in there today.

Thanks. You say you do do the fish?

I do do the fish. Right, right. And you're entirely right, it's, it's very possible to, if you need to do that, to do it through plant protein. Of course. I don't know. I was just being an idiot back then.

I'm still an idiot. All right, let's talk to me about Peaky Blinders.

Now, how long had you been doing— how long— sorry, J— how long did you do Peaky Blinders before— how long have you been living in the world of Peaky Blinders?

So we did the show on and off for— since we shot the first season in the end of 2012. So on and off.

Wow. So, wow, 14 years.

So, which I worked at was like a quarter of my life.

Yeah. And how have you— I'm sure you have enjoyed, 'cause you could have left it earlier, but you have undoubtedly enjoyed the progression of Tommy and shaping his growth along with Stephen Knight, yes?

Yes. But I'm curious to know about you guys as well, 'cause people ask me this stuff, and you know that old showbiz adage, like, you know, "Don't quit a hit." Like, so when— Yeah, amen. Like, if something is working and people, you know, a lot of journalists will say, "Oh, it must be hard going back and playing the same." It's amazing writing.

Well, if it's incredibly high quality, like what you guys have there, and the film, my God, took it to even a higher level of production value and cinematic pleasures. It's just unbelievably well directed and shot and scored and performed and lit. I mean, what a film. But yes, amen. If you've got a gig in this business, stick with it. These people that quit their series job because they want to be open for all the feature opportunities that they feel might be just around the corner, it's like, no, ding dong. You got time for those too.

I love that character of yours, the guy who talks like this, who does the thing that—

I want to be freed up for features.

Yeah, exactly. But also, I think the thing that those people forget is that the features people are all watching the show. Right. Yeah. And thinking, of course, you know, wouldn't they be great in my film? Yeah, right, right.

Cillian, do you spend a lot of time in the States, or are you happy where you are?

I do come over for work, yeah. I've never lived other than, you know, for jobs.

For jobs. So you love Ireland?

Well, I lived in London for a long time. For like, we lived here for 14 years.

And, oh, you live in London now?

I'm sorry. No, I'm sorry, sorry. We're back in Ireland now for about 10 years, but we did live in London for 14. And then, um, before that, we were kind of like, you know, wherever work would take me, I guess.

Why do you ask, Sean? Do you ever be, uh, be Airbnb? One of them?

You got a rental that you were just paying off the mortgage just to cover cost, right? And what can you offer them?

Housekeeper come twice a week? Yeah, just take off.

I just think first and last and, uh, and a deposit, we're good. Um, no, I— because, uh, no, I don't know. I'm always curious because I, I love it where you are, and I get, I get the, the draw to both. I mean, America is obviously incredible.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we're kind of like itinerant, aren't we? We just have to follow the work, and that's the nature of it.

And yeah, we're in the circus, as you say.

Yeah, and you kind of— my friend once called it the circus of the unemployable. Very good phrase.

That is. The thing I was going to ask you about, about doing multiple seasons, years of the same character, is, you know, how much have you enjoyed having that character grow with you, because of you? Has Killian grown through what you've been experimenting with, with Tommy? I mean, I'm sure there's a yes to all of this. So I'm not positive what the question is, which is a habit of mine.

I know what you mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think it's a good question. And honestly, I don't really have a really good answer though, because we just finished— we've just finished it and it's just coming out, and I think I need a little bit of distance to reflect. I think it's what my initial kind of response to it is, that it was a massive gift to be able to tap that vein of writing and for it to stay that good. And for it to— because it was this little show on BBC Two on a Sunday night that, you know, no one had any expectations for. It had no promotion or anything like that, and it was genuinely made by fans on the internet telling each other to watch it. And then it just grew and grew. One of those kind of beautiful kind of freaks that happen sometimes in our business where people just love it, and then the show gets confidence, you know.

Yeah, it's because— I mean, I would think it was because it took such a distinct point of view. You weren't sort of pandering to a huge audience, you know. You were sort of like, we're going to make the show that we really like. We're going to put the— We're gonna shoot it the way we wanna shoot it. We're gonna put this music in there that we really love. And hopefully enough people like it to just keep us on the air, but we're not looking to be some massive hit. And that type of specificity and commitment actually yielded a real fervent fan base.

As opposed to sort of trying to retrofit, trying to go like, "We wanna make a show that hits all this audience, and so how can we—" And that's a recipe for disaster. I wonder, Cillian, were there moments during various seasons of the show, and certainly before the film, like, were there moments where you're like, "This is it. This is the last one," and then it happened again? Like, did you ever have those, like, where you felt like— or was it always open-ended, like, "We're gonna do more"? Well, they wouldn't—

they were never— Like, we only got one series, and then we were hoping we'd get recommissioned, you know? I think we did maybe 4 and 5, one after the other. I can't really recall, but— He, like, Steve always had it in his head. So the series begins at the end of World War I, and he always had it in his head that it would end at the opening or sort of the beginning of World War II. And he's achieved that. Yeah. So that was such a— like, no one had— like, there's lots and lots of, you know, films about the First World War and many, many, many films about the Second World War, but not so many films or TV shows that deal with Britain between the WARS, which is— so that's where he set it. And in Birmingham, which is like the second city in the UK and has its very own specific and unique history. And so, I think because, like you say, it didn't have these ambitions to be this huge show, but yet, because it was so unique that people came to it, I don't know. I just don't know why.

Yeah, well, if we all knew what made a hit, everything would be a hit.

You are such a classy fella. I'm sure you'd be very hesitant to take any credit, but I would guess that you can take some credit, perhaps, for the incredibly beautifully bold move of the music. Haircuts? The music throughout the show. Is that something that— I mean, given your music background, your current musical tastes, paste? I mean, it's just such a— it's such an exciting sort of juxtaposition. And, uh, you know, this modern fucking punk rock throughout something that is set in, you know, World War I. Uh, yeah, it's just great.

It was a— it was a— that was a bit of a kind of a— I guess like a big swing at the time. And Otto Bathurst directed the first 3 series, and he put that Nick Cave tune, that Red Right Hand, right at the beginning and it was incredibly anachronistic and it shouldn't have worked, but for some reason it did, and then we were kind of off. And then all these artists throughout it, like PJ Harvey and like David Bowie, Radiohead, and everybody started, you know, wanting to have their music on the show and giving us original music, and it was— it's been kind of remarkable. Just an absolute privilege for a music nerd like me, you know.

Yeah, what a treat. Um, all right, well, um, I'm assuming you've answered this question a million times, but putting Peaky Blinders to bed, I will ask you, uh, uh, are you— I'm sure you're gonna take a big part of him with you. Um, do you— do you— you're gonna miss him? Are you gonna miss playing that, that character? Um, it's just been— you've just done so much work. Work in that skin.

I guess, I suppose, I, I probably will. Yeah, I don't think about it. What, what do you guys feel about those long-running shows and those characters? I'm curious to know.

Turn the page, right? Yeah, yeah.

But do you actually feel— I mean, are you extremely unsentimental, or do you have a great affection for them?

My, my personal either limits or, or, or strategy or style or whatever is, is to find that character inside of me. You know, it's usually way over on one side or the other of what my goalposts are, you know, the limits of who I am. So that person's always inside of me, so I'll always carry that character with me a bit. I feel like if it's outside my goalposts, then I get into acting. So I gotta find, you know, there would be a version of him inside me somewhere.

What about you two fellows? Yeah, I'm proud and excited that the fans love the character I played for so many years. But for me personally, I'm, yeah, like Jace just said, ready to move on. Turn after that.

I'm not sentimental in that way.

Yeah, neither am I. You're happy to say kind of goodbye, nice knowing you, next.

I think so, yeah. And very proud of it. And like you said, really proud that it had such a— had such an impact and that people invested so much. But, yeah, you have to have a forward momentum.

It's more for me, usually it's the people I've worked with doing it that it's really tragic that we have to get used to saying goodbye to. That's an odd muscle that we all unfortunately have to strengthen is saying goodbye to these families that we're constantly creating on sets. That's the strange thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, when you run into someone— I was just thinking about you run into people that you worked with on something really intensely and you see them like at a restaurant or out on the street or at something else, you know, and it's— I don't even just mean actors, like anybody who's part of the filmmaking process, production designer or whomever, and you see them and you're like, and you go, "How the hell are you doing?" And you've got this, like, really intense part of your life where you had this real connection where you were both doing this creative endeavor and you're like, Hey!

But you've always got that, you know what I mean? And your family has no idea who these people are. And you've spent more time with them in the last few years than you have your actual family. And they've never met them.

And they bring you such joy in that moment when you see them.

Yes, and then it's instant. There's no, like, getting to know you again. It's just you're straight back into it because you've been through the trenches.

Strange. Well, we are 2 minutes over. Yeah, parting shot, Sean?

No, I was just gonna say, now when I run into you, Killian, we worked on this together. We did. So we have this moment and this experience together. So when we run into each other—

Peaky Blinders: The Immortal Man, in select theaters already, March 6th it was, and on Netflix March 20th. I highly recommend this thing. And you can't fold laundry watching it either. Put the laundry down, tuck in. In and enjoy every frame of this thing. Uh, incredible work done by, uh, in front of and behind the cameras. Just, it's a stunning film, really.

You're very kind. It's lovely to chat to you guys. I want— I had loads of questions to ask you guys, but I always— oh, let's start.

Get yourself a podcast, invite us on. They're handing them out. We haven't had a gossip.

Yeah, no, we got gossip all day long.

Yeah, well, you can gossip after I leave.

Yeah, yeah, such a pleasure to meet you. I'm— what a pleasure. I've been a big fan for a long time.

Such a big fan.

Yeah, same, such a big fan. Likewise, guys. You're the man, Cillian. Lovely to— lovely to chat to you all, and yeah, we'll do it again.

Enjoy your evening. Get your slippers on.

Thanks. All right, see you guys. Yeah, it's nearly bedtime now.

All right, bye, buddy. Nice. Bye-bye. Well, there he is. And you know, you know, the most remarkable thing about his Talent, that accent, completely fake. He is actually from— yeah, yeah, yeah. No kidding. Yeah, Canton, Ohio. Why would he— Canton, Ohio? Yeah. His dad actually was one of the people that helped build the NFL Hall of Fame. Amazing. Yeah. No, this is a character he hasn't dropped, uh, for years. Incredible. I mean, that's deep.

That is amazing. Deep, deep.

So, wow. That's like a fella. Um, you know what? Yeah, he's so good. Christopher Nolan and him, like, you kind of think of those two together, and I I'm trying to think of who else is there. There's a lot of them, like Tim Burton and Johnny Depp.

Yeah, Leonardo DiCaprio and Martin Scorsese now. Sure.

I mean, did he do a lot of Scorsese?

Yeah, and Tom Hanks and Spielberg did a bunch, didn't they?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's one of them. Here comes a joke, right? Let's see.

Sean, I thought that was leading to a buy, but no, that was a real observation.

It was. He was being sincere while he searches for a buy. Where do you go? Is there a bi website? There's—

I do have a bunch of bi things, but—

Boy, Will, you're showing a lot of restraint not doing any of the bi jokes at all. Shoot.

Oh, that's a good one. Sean, did you key in on one? Did you?

I did. This just came to me. I hope, you know, I hope the movie— I can't wait to see the movie. Our guest today. That's great. It's called Peaky Binder. Beautiful shot.

Smartless. Smartless. Smartless is 100% organic and artisanally handcrafted by Bennett Barbacoa. Michael Grant Terry, and Rob Armjarff.

Smart. Less.