Transcript of Tucker Carlson's Rebrand, Apple’s New Era, and SpaceX’s AI Deal New

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Listen to The Build with Mike O'Sullivan wherever you get your podcasts. When will I be enough, Kara?

Never. Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

So I'm in this job interview.

Oh no.

And the interviewer says, "Notchuk says, 'What's this 4-year gap in your resume?'" And I said, "Well, I went to Yale." And she said, "Wow, that's really impressive. You're hard." And I said, "Oh, thank God. I really need this job." Wait.

Oh, okay, that's good, that's good. All right, that's good. It takes a minute, but it's good.

You have— yeah, I don't know, I think you need to laugh out. Do I need to go lesbian? Is that what we're doing here? Lesbian jokes?

Please don't, please don't, please don't.

Uh, Kara, what do you call a lesbian mechanic?

What?

By her name, you homophobe.

Oh my God, okay, that was good. All right, I'm gonna let you have those. How was your weekend? I, I, I Weekend. Whatever.

Last weekend. Where are you? You work so much, you know, you've lost all sense of time and space. I know, it's true.

I went to the Devil Wears Prada 2 premiere.

Oh, that looked fabulous. That was fabulous. I was really bummed to miss that.

Yeah, it was amazing. I actually get a line in it.

Oh, do you? That's right. I want to see it. That's exciting.

And then I have to tell you, the whole movie is actually quite, you know, it's as good as the last one, but it's also a little deeper and really interesting take on media. It's both funny and also like, somewhat profound and also beautiful. I happen— the music is off the friggin' charts.

Is it?

They're all at their peak, but one person— like, they're all great. Let me just say, every— and Anne Hathaway's at the heart of the movie, but every character is great. Stanley Tucci, obviously Meryl Streep. The side characters are amazing. Emily Blunt is great. But Justin Theroux playing a billionaire. He's playing like a Jeff Bezos.

I heard he steals the show. Seriously, I've heard he— I mean, I'm biased, but I've heard he steals the show.

It's close, only 'cause everybody is so high level in this thing, and everyone looks amazing. Oh my God. I don't know. He's doing a Jeff Bezos, Elon kind of thing, teal thing. And he doesn't look good. He's like a little bit puffy. Like he's— but he looks good. He doesn't, you know, he's such a handsome man. But I have to tell you, he's so fantastic.

If you're a Justin fan, one weekend when you wanna binge, watch The Leftovers. Different. Oh, much different. Much different. And by the way, I haven't seen The Devil Wears Prada, but we absolutely need more sequels in the world. But anyways, I will see it because I'm a huge fan of Justin, and I think Emily Blunt and Anne Hathaway are scorching hot.

Yeah. Well, you'll love this movie then.

But I was so bummed. It looked fabulous.

I saw it. Some sequels don't work. This one is better, but not. I love the first one because I thought it was such a great movie.

The best thing that could happen for the creative community is if there was a 36-month ban on production for any sequel because they have a total dearth of original material to make sequels on.

I get it, but this has been 20 years, so I'm gonna give it to you.

I'm not gonna shitpost Devil Wears Prada 2. I'm glad you liked it. I wish I was genuinely jealous. I saw the TikToks of all the people there, and it looked really cool.

Let me give credit to David Frankel, who's the director. It's just, it's what, when Hollywood does a great job, they really do a great job. Like, they really do. And so I have to say, uh, kudos to them. And Justin, we love you. You're gonna just die laughing your ass off.

Yeah, I can't wait to see it.

Yeah, he's really good.

Yeah, he just had a baby boy.

Yeah, he did. Congratulations, Justin, he and his wife. Anyway, let's get to the news. Uh, first, Tucker Carlson, one of Trump's biggest supporters over the last few years, now says he regrets helping, uh, get Trump elected. He offered an apology on the latest episode of The Tucker Carlson Show while speaking with his, uh, brother Buckley, a former Trump speechwriter. Tucker and Buckley, oh my goodness. Let's listen.

I and everyone else who supported him, you wrote speeches for him, I campaigned for him. We're implicated in this for sure. Yes. It's not enough to say, well, I changed my mind, or like, oh, this is bad, I'm out. It's like, in very small ways, but in real ways, you and me and millions of people like us are the reason this is happening right now. Yes. So I do think it's like a moment to wrestle with our own consciences, uh, you know, we'll be tormented by it for a long time. I will be. And, and I want to say I'm sorry for misleading people. It was not intentional. That's all I'll say.

So Tucker might be tormented. Is he trying to pull a Joe Rogan? Is he going back to Trump to, to when he needs something? I mean, he's done this before in those emails during that, the trial that Fox had and lost. He would call them demonic. He was— he's been here. And I don't think Trump has been anything but explicit about what he is for a very long time. So I'd love to talk about this and the idea of redemption, like that Rogan was trying to do it. And of course, the minute he gave him his psychedelics, he shows right up. And how— and Greene is one. The thing I was talking about was the, you know, you got a lot of pushback for, for your Ben Shapiro comments this week. This week I've got— you know, my comments, my interview, your interview, excuse me, but also what you said about him and stuff. So these people seem to be moving this way in a way that's— is it real? Is it not real? How much should we hold people responsible for the things they've said previously? Greene has been terrible. Ben has been many things, or not— this stuff, especially around trans and people of color, has been repugnant to me, at least.

Gay people.

But you would put Ben and Tucker in the same category?

I put them all in a different way because I think a lot of what Ben has said previously is Really, if I read it, I mean, I can read it to you if you'd like, but I wanna talk about the bigger idea of giving people space. They are obviously, Tucker is and Rogan is and Theo Vaughn is and Marjorie Taylor Greene are trying, even Megyn Kelly on this sort of redemption tour in a weird way. And I don't, I not necessarily believe it, but I wanna talk about this issue of when you let people say, I made a mistake a couple years ago when I said this heinous thing, forgive me, that which is what Tucker's asking for here.

Look, this is sort of do as I say, not as I do, because I think the right thing is be careful shaming people for saying they were wrong and coming back into the fold, you know, because that's how we, that's how we maintain our virtue and indignance and elected, elect J.D. Vance. I think we just need to be a little bit more— when people say I fucked up and this guy is bad, fine, welcome them. I, I, that's the smart thing to do. I have a difficult time resisting calling you know, telling Marjorie Taylor Greene, or a difficult time not telling her to sit down when all of a sudden, you know, when it no longer matters and she doesn't get his support or endorsement to run for Senate, she's all of a sudden decided that he's bad. For me, when I saw those comments from Tucker, it seemed to me, to me, I thought, I think I absolutely know what's going on here. He's running for president, Kara.

Yeah. Yeah.

And do you realize what an enormous lane there is for somebody who has very conservative values, an enormous media platform, an enormous army of acolytes that he could weaponize right away, and by the way, is anti-Trump and anti-the war in Iran, which a huge swath of Republicans are now. Who occupies that lane right now? And I disagree with Kausche on this. I think here and now, Tucker Carlson is the most likely GOP nominee for president in 2028. Put him on stage with Rubio and Vance, he's gonna slice and dice them. So we do, I believe as Democrats, and I realize that brings some bias to the table, I think you could go 6, 7 people deep. I think, you know, the, the 8th most likely person to get the nomination, like a Senator Klobuchar or, an Ossoff, they are 10 times better than the person leading in the prediction platforms for the Republican Party, JD Vance. We are, we have a deep bench. As deep as our bench is, theirs is that shallow. JD Vance, I mean, he makes, Jesus Christ, he makes Goebbels likable. I mean, the guy, the guy is unattractive. They're gonna have a field day taking all of his statements and his gymnastics and his hypocrisy in his weirdness, whether it's saying that the Pope should be more careful speaking to notions of religion.

I mean, he said so many ridiculous things that they're gonna have a field day with it.

Yes, he shifted rather a lot.

And then they'll connect him, and they haven't even started connecting him to Thiel and that fucking weirdness.

Well, do you— but the shiftingness of this Tucker thing, for example, I mean, didn't he know? Or why did he suddenly know? Or was it just because it's Israel and this on war? What is it? It's like, how do you—

It's calculated. It's strategy.

In this case, it's calculated. 'Cause I think he's already said this privately and it got out in those legal filings.

He's always hated Trump. I think anyone, I think Tucker's a smart guy. I think anyone who's intelligent and whatever you say about Tucker, I don't know. He's an intelligent, impressive media figure. He is very good at what he does. And he could not stand Trump and then saw that his audience was going there and that's the way he was going to make money was to be just blindly supportive of Trump. Now he sees an opening. He's the leading candidate for president.

I just hate the heinous things he said. Like, a lot of— look, Greenhouse.

He's trying to recast himself. He's apologized and now he has 2 years to take on an anti-Trump Republican. He has 2 years to basically carve out and cement a lane of, "I am anti-Trump. I'm an anti-Trump conservative that was anti-war," that neither Vance nor Rubio can carve out. He's very well positioned.

Right. But then how do you— I wanna talk about the bigger picture of escaping this, like the Marjorie Taylor Greene's, and Shapiro was doing that. And you know, we've gotten some, a lot of flak. I get your flak too.

Bring it on.

On. Okay, explain, because you said— let me just push back at you if you don't mind.

Sure.

Um, you said you appreciate his moral clarity and reasoning. I'm gonna take issue. I think he's very smart, there's no question. I'm going to take some issue, and I sometimes agree with some of the things he says. Not a lot of them, but some of them. Um, he also took a shot at me that was inaccurate and put it on my podcast. No, you said on your podcast he took a shot at you. No, no, no, before, previously. He, he did call to apologized to me about it, which I appreciated. But that said, the moral clarity thing, I mean, I, I, I would have trouble— how do you escape things like— let me just tell you a couple of things he said, which sort of is why I found it a little bit disturbing. Um, he called transgenderism a mental disorder. He argues that homosexuality should remain in the DSM as a mental illness. He's called women who have abortions baby killers. He's, um, he said a man and a woman do a better job of raising a child than two men or women. That's not even getting into some of the comments he makes about Arabs.

He said this was a long time ago, and he walked back those comments as being dumb when he said Israelis like to build, Arabs like to bomb and live in open sewage, which I didn't think was something one should say. And any number of men and women things. But, and then Greene herself, let me move on to Greene, you know, is saying a lot of incredible things. That said, she, another person who attacks trans and gay people, uh, says every now and then drops what I consider to be very antisemitic tropes very quickly. Once she gets past, I don't like war, she shifts. She, she says Jewish when she means Israel quite a bit. And so you kind of see the play there. I do want to like, how do you— I couldn't, I don't think I could talk to Ben Shapiro because of a lot of the things unless in some way. Talk about this whether our country— and I just talked to Estelle Herndon about this— is that most regular people do forgive people, or they say, oh, he didn't mean it. And Tucker's trying to do the same thing. Joe Rogan's trying to do the same thing.

Gavin Newsom's trying to do this.

Gavin Newsom's trying to do— yes, he's shifting the other way, which I, I also have written him and said, I find this like, what are you doing here? Um, and, and I, we can disagree with each other, but how, how easy it is it to let people back in? And what should be the— I guess what should be the criteria? I guess there'll be different criteria for each person.

At a very spiritual level, the question around letting people back in is forgiveness is divine and, you know, you want to err on the side of forgiveness. Having said that, I think the more salient question is who do you decide to platform or not? So I've had a lot of people from quote unquote the manosphere contact me directly and say, you have misrepresented me. You are part of the manosphere, but you're manosphere light. We could have a productive conversation. I'm coming on. And I'm like, to be blunt, I think what you have said is so unproductive. And so damaging for young men that I don't want to give you any oxygen. I don't even want to get in your face. I don't want to have an argument. I don't use the most famous misogynist. I don't use his name because I don't want to give them oxygen. So the question is, do you give a guy like Ben Shapiro—

Which one is it?

Go ahead. Well, you can probably guess.

Tate. Anyways. Andrew Tate.

Well, someone who's been jailed for accusations of trafficking women.

Andrew Tate. I will use his name.

I mean, okay. So, but I don't— He likes it. Every time his name is used, the algorithms elevate his content and other platforms.

He's number one on Substack.

And the reality is, if you talk to young men, most young men have written him off a long time ago. But I think that is because we— he's such an easy punching bag. We mention his name and the algorithms pick it up and elevate his content anyways. And a lot of young people will be drawn, especially young men, to people who are controversial figures. So my feeling is There's certain people you just choke off their oxygen supply. So the question is, with someone like Ben, he has said, in my opinion, wrong, even maybe vile things. I said to him, I said in my post comments after my interview with him, the thing that really bothers me about Ben is that he has courageously called out these far-right people and said, we can't engage in this conspiracy theory, this hate mongering. He said that to that group. I thought that was fairly courageous of him to call out those people. What I— my issue, or one of my issues with Ben, is that when they were— these people were conspiracy theorists accusing world leaders' first ladies of having penises, or accusing people of, you know, just very heinous things, some of the transgender stuff— he sort of was a bit of an apologist.

But then when they went against Israel, that was the, the red line for him. And so I'm like, okay, basically Ben has decided to excommunicate and call out people on the far right, not when they're homophobes or bigots, but when they become antisemitic. And I said that, I think I disagree with a lot of what Ben says. This is Ben Shapiro. He grew up in a lower middle class home. He's so fucking smart, he got to Harvard. He's built a great company. He is willing to acknowledge points. I love just watching him debate to just take notes on how I make my progressive viewpoints, how I articulate my progressive viewpoints in a more compelling way. And also, I am done with this notion of this apostate culture on the left, where if I don't choose the right words or have the right people on my podcast, people act as if I've betrayed them. There is a line. I will never have Candace Owens on my podcast. I will never have Nick Fuentes on my podcast. But I think Ben brings a really intellectual, adept, clever arguments and viewpoints to issues I don't agree with him on.

And I think it's a healthy dialog.

I'm not sure they're saying you shouldn't have him on. I think it was the moral clarity thing, I think, was what—

Okay, I chose the wrong words. I get it.

I get it.

He doesn't back down. He has a view and then he doesn't back down. He's not trying to go where the wind goes or what gets him most— the most likes on Instagram. I respect that. I think he genuinely believes what he believes. He tries to provide evidence and argument. I'm, I said I'm a fan of Ben Shapiro. I'm a fan. You have to separate the person from the politics. I think he is an impressive young man who has demonstrated incredible intellect and really made an incredibly successful media company. And this notion that I believe when we all start barking up the same tree, we get really fucking stupid. And I think that people on the left and the right have a tendency to all want to find the right words, especially people on the left, and get angry at anybody that wants to have a discourse.

Oh, come on, Scott. The right has gotten so censorious. Like, they're the ones who are actually doing the censoring. There is a purity test on the right right now around Trump, around everything else. And pushing these people, pushing back is hard, I have to say.

I find that the far right, or the right, not the far right, I find the right just writes me and you off. They just say we're libtards. The most hate I get is from progressives who are like, we thought you could try. When you said Biden was too You don't understand the assignment. We thought we could trust you.

Right.

Or, oh wait, do you remember the hate I got on that podcast when I said that transgender women should not be allowed to compete in women's sports?

Yes.

Do you remember that one?

Mm-hmm.

I mean, it's okay. You are with us 100% or you're against us.

Well, that's different than having a debate over a very complex issue and saying transgenderism is a mental disorder or that homosexuality is—

I didn't say that.

No, he did. Ben Shapiro did.

Okay, so should we not not ever talk to Ben because he said that?

I think—

should we not ask him to defend his comments?

I, I think that's what I'm asking you, is a really difficult thing. I've thought about having Marjorie Taylor Greene on, and then I read a lot, I'm like, oh, I'm gonna— like, just because I like what she's saying, I, I don't trust any of these people, I'll be honest. I just don't. And I just think they see the wind, and I think they have legitimate problems with Trump. I do think Greene, for example, is an America Firster, and she's always been. I think she's very committed to the Epstein issues, and I think she is. I don't I don't, I think she's sincere in this, in that, and you can hear it goes way back and I go way back to read her. But then when it's accompanied by this other stuff, how do you set, I think it's gonna be a very hard road back for everybody.

But let me just create it. Let me just call out a distinction. I struggle with the same thing you're struggling with. You have more license, I think, 'cause you're a journalist. And so getting Marjorie Taylor Greene on On with Kara Swisher and talking to her and putting, and you're a great interviewer, you're a much better interviewer than me, knowing how to forcefully push back Jack, you are, you are, you are great at that. But I'll give you an example. I don't think Ben would ever stalk people who came to testify in front of Congress who were Parkland shooter survivors and follow them for 4 blocks accusing them of lying and being crisis actors. I don't see Ben Shapiro ever doing something like that. At the end of the day, this is your call and people can decide that, all right, if you're platforming—

That's not what I'm saying. I'm talking about more as our country, like when do we let it go? Like that's gonna be, the reason I'm asking is I just, I just did this incredible interview with this stat. It's like, when does it—

What's the statute of limitations?

And when do people have to— When do all of us have to just leave Trump behind us and all the bad— And I'm not— I blame him, but I blame ourselves because it's really hard. And it's— And the jumping, like, listen, I got like attacked for saying Reese Witherspoon was just saying try AI. That was just weird.

That was just stupid.

It was weird, but it was also— But I also get it. Like the rage about it's—

That's the machine looking soft tissue to pretend they're virtuous. That's stupid. So what?

Yeah, but you know, the right virtue signal, you virtue signal, we all virtue signal.

No, that's everybody. Everybody who's angry about AI. Yes. There's different, this is complex, right?

I get it. That's all I'm saying is I get where it's coming from. I get where it's coming from. And so I discount it. And sometimes, you know, I was talking to Clara this morning about something. Skål was being mad about his socks or something like that. And I said to her, it was, we were driving to school and she goes, oh yeah, he was really mad about the socks. I said, you know, he wasn't mad about the socks. He was mad because I'd been away for a few days and he wanted me to drive him to school. I'm driving you. And I said, sometimes people are mad about things that have nothing to do with it.

Did you talk to a 6-year-old? I couldn't have that conversation with my 18-year-old.

And it was an interesting conversation.

Did you bring up Freud or Jungian resentment?

No, it's just, Claire is so smart. It's crazy.

Let's watch Frozen.

Let's watch Frozen 2. But it's just, I think we should be talking as much like what is is what do we have to do to get back to some level of disagreement? And I do think, there's no question that the Greens, the Shapiros, the Owens, the Megyn Kelly, and definitely people on the left too, who I don't listen to as much, which is interesting, have tried to like poke at us and make us really dislike each other in a way that I think has been very dangerous. And at some point there has some level of reckoning over that.

That's the right word.

You know, it's a reckoning. And what is that reckoning is really important.

Well, 3 points. There's some nuance here. I would not group all of those people into the same group. I think there's different levels of mendaciousness and disingenuous and saying hateful things for money. The right word— So the first is what I'll call camera culture or forgiveness. I think in a culture where everyone's following each other around, where everyone's tweets live forever, If we don't expand the aperture of forgiveness, we're just all gonna fucking hate each other. I say stupid shit all the time. I'm putting out 14 fucking hours a week of content. I'm shooting from the hip. If an 18-year-old shows up to a protest on campus and says, "From the river to the sea," not understanding how some people perceive that, you know, I don't want to kick him outta school. I don't want to ruin his career. I don't want to contact JP Morgan, which some people want to do and make sure his summer internship is rescinded. We have to, to get to a level of more forgiveness in a culture where there's incentive to find— make a cartoon of people's comments and press on the soft tissue and be outraged behind our computers.

And we have gone so far from that. We need— I'm trying to do that. I'm trying not to call out people for clicks when I see an opportunity. I'm trying to take the temperature down. The word you bring up though, and it's different, is reckoning. And that is, I do not think I don't think this nation heals until there is some form of reckoning. Marjorie Taylor Greene and Nancy Pelosi should disgorge their profits from insider trading. The people who were in charge or supervisors of ICE in Minneapolis, where an ICU nurse somehow ended up with 10 bullets in his person, those people should be hauled in front of committees and punished. I'm not saying maybe they go to jail. When there are people, when the children of our Commerce Secretary are taking $500 million from Gulf nations in exchange for favors and geopolitical advantage, they should disgorge those profits and be put on trial. There needs to be a reckoning here. At the same time, with respect to what people say or their views or being incendiary or playing into a far left or a far right media ecosystem that then elevates it online We need to massively increase the aperture around forgiveness.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think, well, that's well said. See, we've had a good discussion about this. We're still getting dragged online and I get dragged with you. Thanks, Scott.

I think you should do the interview with— I would tune in for the interview with Marjorie Taylor Greene. I would love to see what you said and how you approach it. I think that would be—

It's so tough.

One of the reasons I would not interview MTG is I don't feel like I have the skills to handle that interview.

Well, yeah, it's hard because it's part of me, I'm like, go girl. And part of me is like, really? Some of the heinous things you've done, shall I? There's a point, it's a difficult thing because, you know, I just, I'm like, you very clearly have issues with Jewish people. Like it's, you know, you'd have to have an honest conversation. She'd have to be open to an honest conversation instead of just clap, clap, clap, we forgive you.

Can I give you a couple real world examples? I was supposed to go on Bill Maher and I found out that Steve Bannon was one of the panelists.

You did, you removed yourself.

And I said, this guy made what looked like to me a Nazi salute.

Yeah.

And a lot of people say, no, he didn't. If I had more skills, I could handle that conversation. I don't have that skills, those skills. I, as a nod to my mother, I feel like I would have to fucking say something to him on live TV. I do not want to hijack Bill Maher's show, and I don't know how to thread that needle, so I backed out. I was invited to go on Steve Bartlett's podcast tomorrow. I was supposed to be on with Eric Schmidt on a discussion on AI. I have a lot of respect for the brain of Eric Schmidt. I would learn a lot. I'm like, "I'm in." And they're like, "Eric can't do it. Can you come on in this panel with Cenk or Cenk?" I'm like, "Every time I see that guy, he's yelling. I don't want to get into a yelling match with anybody." You went on that Piers when I told you not to. Well, I didn't know he was going to ambush me with some far-right weirdo.

Yeah.

So, and by the way, I like Piers. And he's been very generous to me. And I called the producer and I said, never again, don't call me. You didn't warn me that you were going to bring on some right-wing weirdo to try and say, to call me desperate and un-American. I don't need that shit. And it wasn't a civil conversation. It was you just trying to get the YouTube algorithm to have a call-out moment such that you'd get another fucking $40 from AdSense. I'm not going to engage in that. At the same time, I'm not going to get on with, I think, I think that guy is far left, who every time I see him is yelling. I'm like, what good does that do me? What good does that do the ecosystem or any sense of civil discourse that this nation needs to move toward?

Yeah, yeah. Well, we'll see how it goes. It'll be interesting.

I'm so indignant right now.

What?

I'm so indignant right now. What do you call a Black man on the moon?

Oh no, don't, please don't. I'm gonna have to cut that. To fire you soon.

What an astronaut, you fucking racist.

Oh, I love it. That guy is amazing.

That guy's amazing.

He's amazing. Like, oh, all right.

$150,000 a year.

He said I wouldn't fly with a Black pilot. One of— was it Tucker? One of them?

No, no, it was Charlie Kirk. He was making a point around DEI that he thinks there's— God.

And by the way, Elon's done it too.

Just so you know how airlines—

I'm not forgiving—

how airlines handle DEI, they do widen the aperture in terms of who makes it into the applicant pool. But any pilot, female, male, Black, white, Latino, has to pass the exact same test at the same level.

I know. It's ridiculous. It's fucking ridiculous. Those things, I'm sorry, I'm not gonna be forgiving. Anyway, that pilot is amazing. All right, we're moving on.

I didn't mean to sound defensive. Fair point. I'm getting attacked a lot in the last 24 hours.

I know, but you know what? It's good to talk about 'cause everyone wants me to dump you.

Everyone wants you to dump me.

I'm not doing it.

Everyone wants you to dump me.

I'm just telling you today, today, Today. Scott, did I have an effective and substantive conversation about the issue?

Every one wants you.

Just telling you. All right, I'm moving on. Speaking of people we may have to forgive, Apple will have a new CEO for the first time in 15 years come September. Tim Cook is stepping down as CEO and will move into a new role as Apple's executive chairman. Trump praised Cook in a post on Truth Social, also saying, quote, "I was very impressed with myself to have the head of Apple calling to kiss my ass," unquote. Unfortunately, this was accurate. John Ternus, the head of Apple's Apple's hardware engineering will succeed Cook, first product person running the company in a while. He's been with the company for 25 years overseeing the engineering of the iPhone, iPad, and Mac. Talk about the legacy, and you will have to include sort of being tainted by this relationship with Trump, including recently the statue and the Melania thing. Ternus is joining Apple as the company is fighting for a space in the AI race and product innovation. Talk a little bit about predictions for the Ternus era and looking back at the Cook era. May I start? Of course. I have to say he's 10x the amount, the value of the company when, when Steve gave him the reins and then died, everyone thought it was curtains for the company.

And that has not been the case. He has been innovative with AirPods and Watch and not just, not as sexy as, as Steve Jobs has been or as visionary. So I think he's been a great, a great leader for them. That said, he was tarnished by some China, all the China manufacturing stuff for sure. Because he's a logistics guy, he was maybe too much of an automaton on those human rights issues. And then the President Trump stuff is not a great look, but I think he was taking one for the team would be my guess in that regard. As a person, I really like him. He's been, he's a really calm person. I think he could have been slightly more outspoken about gay issues, but that's his choice. Again, I don't force gay people to have to talk about it, but he's a He's a good role model. Probably could have talked a little bit more about it. That's my only— but that's again his choice. And I get why people don't want to. So your thoughts?

I think people's careers are, you know, the second in the blink of the corporate world in the universe, that second 35mm, right? No one gets all 35mm perfect. And Tim Cook's running at 34 and a half. So to not— this is his legacy. Tim Cook is the most successful successor in corporate history. He— talk about a guy that was set up to fail by virtue of the idolatry of the person who was taking over for it. They were immediately second-guessing Tim Cook.

And the record. His record was pretty amazing. The record itself, not just idolatry.

Yeah, it's like, okay, who inherits Jesus's mantle? Steve Jobs was the new Jesus because we had shifted from idolizing our athletes and our government officials to the idolatry of innovators as identified and marked by Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs, and then who was taken from us early like Jesus. I mean, it was just, he has become a mythical godlike figure.

00:33:01

He certainly has.

00:33:02

So any guy taking, you wanna talk about the biggest shoes to fill in history, and what did Tim Cook do? He took the stock up tenfold. Operationally, he built the most, probably the most robust, impressive supply chain in history. He figured out a way in a foreign nation to take advantage of the collision between advanced manufacturing and low wages and somehow get 2,000 parts to one place or different places for assembly and build a supercomputer for $400 that if you tried to build it anywhere else would cost $4,000. He figured it out. He also created, people say he wasn't a new product guy. My favorite technology in history in history, these things.

AirPods, you love your AirPods.

And AirPods, if they were their own business, would be a Fortune 50 company. And it's, I think of it's the most successful piece of jewelry in history and the highest margin. In addition, what he decided to do was to say, okay, I'm not gonna launch new products. I'm gonna take existing products and applications and take a phone and evolve it to a supercomputer where you have payments, where you have music.

So an ecosystem is what you're talking about, creating an ecosystem.

But he took the iPhone from a phone to a supercomputer in your pocket that was media, transactions.

Yeah, ecosystem.

And it became— the iPhone pulled off the impossible. And that is, if you want really high margins like Ferrari, it's a niche with limited volumes. If you want super high volumes like a Toyota, you have to price it to get low margins. The iPhone is the only product in history that's managed to get the production volume production volume of a Toyota with the margins of a Ferrari. The iPhone has created more gross margin dollars than any product in history. Arguably speaking, the iPhone is the most successful product in history. There's been nothing like it.

Nothing.

He did it with a lot of grace. There wasn't anyone shitposting or leaving or filing lawsuits. And if you want to talk about Apple's ascent past, say Samsung or Android, Android, go buy a phone, an Android phone. You're talking to a guy with a name tag named Roy who's living with his parents in a bad place with bad carpeting. And then you walk—

It's still not great, I'll tell you that. There's some beautiful form factors that I like. I wish there was more.

No, I mean the retail, the distribution for Android.

Got it, yeah.

You go into an Apple Store, if they opened a coffee store, it'd probably be, if they opened a coffee counter in the Apple Store, it'd probably be the highest grossing retail in the world. And by the way, it became the highest grossing per square foot retail, besting Tiffany in the early aughts.

Let me ask you his negatives. What would you say? I would definitely think the controversies around China, certainly, but that they seem in the rearview mirror. What about the Trump relationship?

The China one, look, he had to take a huge risk on a company that we had geopolitical tensions with. He couldn't look into a crystal ball. And quite frankly, it looks as if we've survived it. And I would argue, I would argue that China and the US have a vested interest in figuring out a way to get along because Apple is so important to China and China is so important to this US company called Apple. I think cross-commerce, I forget the German word for it, is firms that trade with each other are just less likely to go to war with each other. So I'm a huge fan of what he has pulled off in China. The Trump stuff, we were very vocal about it. It pissed me off. I think Tim Cook, Tim Cook, there are few people who have benefited more from the American system and civil rights and gay rights and rule of law and systemic laws around business and a lack of favoritism and a lack of tariffs than Tim Cook. And yet he— you're right, he played the game. His priority was shareholders, so he was strategic and kissed the guy's ass.

I get it. It would have been nice if he had been a little bit more forceful and pushed back, but the reality is neither did the other 499 S&P 500 CEOs. So quite Frankly, I think he gets a hall pass.

Oh, you don't see Nadella there. You don't see like—

Nadella went to the meeting.

He went to the meeting.

All the CEOs.

But I'm talking about the like—

He didn't go to the Melania premiere.

He didn't. And he didn't do the bring him a present. And just, it was, I thought it was tainting of his long, very decent tenure. And I don't think it, I think I know, I have a feeling I know why he did it. He's like, it had to be done essentially. I have to kiss up to him. And then of course Trump returned the favor by saying he kissed my ass, which is just like typical.

This is the question I would ask. Of all the CEOs on a balanced scorecard of having a good team, fostering leadership, of showing grace, not posting other people, who scores higher than Tim Cook in the history of business?

Cook or Nadella, I would say Cook or Nadella. I think Nadella really pulled that company together.

So he got a 99 point, he got 1590 on the SAT. He did, he got one question wrong. I mean.

Okay, I got it. I'm just asking the question. I would agree with you.

This guy. This guy is a first ballot Hall of Fame corporate and American citizen.

100%.

And when people leave the stage, everyone should just be—

He's also leaving at the right time, by the way.

Yeah, he's stepping down. He's not clinging to power like an African dictator.

Right, no. So Turnus, very quickly, predictions for the Turnus era?

Again, talk about big shoes to fall. The only, you know him better than I do. I do know him. The only thing I find fascinating about this guy is that he tinkers with like go-karts and he's a hardware guy. Says more about the board. They said, "We're about hardware, we're not about services, and this is about trying to innovate about products." You know him better than I do.

I don't know him. I've met him a couple. He didn't stick out compared to some of the others there that were in the contention. But I do think he's— having a product person is really important 'cause they've gotta really evolve the iPhone in ways. And they still have to get some glasses thing going. I know you're against it, but there's some lighter glasses thing that has to get going. I think they haven't been great in the home.

Home.

They've been okay. And so there's a lot of— and, and then of course how, how AI is integrated into all these products is going to be within— with privacy and safety, especially given the rage about AI. I know you all think it's not going to happen, but it's going to happen. So I think that's— I think we'll see. I think it, you know, again, this is a group of people that have been there forever, and I would have liked to see maybe a little bit more shakeup, but I see why they don't. Why would they? And because it's working. And so he's, you know, he's younger, he's more vibrant, and we'll see how he does. Anyway, uh, let's go on a quick break. We come back, new details about SpaceX IPO.

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Elon increased his stake in SpaceX last year, buying $1.4 billion worth of stock from current and former employees. He stands to get $60 million more in shares if SpaceX market cap reaches $6.6 trillion and the company completes a plan to build data centers in space. Slight hitch: the IPO prospectus warns that data centers and plans for the moon and Mars rely on unproven tech and might not be commercially viable. Um, let me just add, um, Talk about these plans. In other news, Tesla's out with its latest earnings reporting better than expected numbers, but still way below levels from a few years ago. One bright spot, the company said demand around the world is growing, obviously because of rising fuel prices, increased demand for EVs, and they're the front runner in that. Shares initially rose in extended trading, but gave up those gains since Elon warned that significant increase in capital, CapEx, which he noted was gonna start at $25 billion for robots and all sorts of large ambitious projects. I don't really care the deals, those cool if it work great, They don't, too bad, you know, shareholders. You know, again, it's the Tesla, the car business is not the business anymore.

So he's gotta reach for something else. I don't fault them for that. Any thoughts about the IPO and then Tesla?

Well, the news is their acquisition or announced acquisition of Cursor. And my sense is that xAI has not figured out a way to develop a revenue model or a product that garners revenue.

Well, all the, all the founders have left except for Elon. I think there's nobody left.

Cursor is their attempt, I think, to bolt on a front end that has a commercially viable product.

Yeah, you're right.

The other observation I would make is that, you know, liars use— statisticians lie and liars use statistics. Some of these numbers are just such bullshit. So when OpenAI said they were raising money at $850 billion, okay, call it a trillion if you guarantee me a 17% preferred return and I have a liquidity preference. I don't care what number you put on. The, the press release. And then, you know, I mean, Anthropic here and now is worth more than, um, than OpenAI. But according to OpenAI's press release, they're worth 2.5 times. The number that's a lie here that I'd want to know more information about is a $60 billion acquisition price. And I would bet it's structured something along the lines of the following: that if we go public and get a $1.5 or $2 trillion, um, market cap, we're going to give you options for 3% of the company, which da da da is $60 billion. They don't have $60 billion cash anywhere.

They don't. Yeah. So, and also Andreessen's all mobbed up with that one, I think, and the whole bunch. They're all the same people.

But they want to put out a headline number of $60 billion to connote more value in this thing than is probably there. Let me be clear, no one, no one is cashing a check for $60 billion right now. So look, I think that, like, Musk, with respect to business and what I'll call perception and pulling at a narrative around getting access to cheap capital to pull the future forward, he's likely the best in history. Absolutely. Maybe with the exception of, I don't know, Netflix and Amazon played that game really, really deftly as well. But his ability to kind of continue to say, no, look over here as I stuff the rabbit into the hat. Oh wait, you figured out Tesla is like just a mediocre auto company with low mark— wait, look over here. Oh, SpaceX.

Robots.

It's only got $12 billion in revenues and a 1.5— oh wait, look over here. I mean, it's just— and integrating space connectivity, broadband, satellites, AI, autonomous—

Data centers in space.

It's all—

Not a bad idea.

It is like every 8-year-old boy's dream. I mean, it's like a company envisioned for an 8-year-old, but he is very good at this. He's very good at creating 1 1 a little bit of jazz hands equals $1.5 trillion. And I look at this acquisition, makes no fucking sense. It's bullshit, the $60 billion number. It's probably a good idea 'cause XAI needs more human capital and it needs something. It, quite frankly, it just needs more product management.

He has to hide things in things. That's why Twitter went into Grok, right? Into XAI because he had to hide it in there. Like the losses and the declines and whatever. It's still hugely influential for him. Same thing with this is his Grok thing. Like all the people who he started it and touted it with have left. So he's gotta make, You know, he makes shit into a very tasty shit sandwich sometimes. And spending, you know, you're just going to get what you get with this guy. He's going to always advantage himself. He wants to do cool things. He's going to take your money to pay for it. And these numbers are insane, but they'll probably go up. So we can't say don't invest. But the fact of the matter is, they're, you know, are there going to be a million robots in their homes? You can, and you can, by the way, there's a million movies of him talking about full Full self-driving. And I didn't even get into this here, but it didn't happen. Like, everything he said was gonna happen didn't happen. But he's really good at raising money. He's really good at innovating certain things, but then he moves on.

And so I think you just have to go with— And then he has the Starlink in the middle of it. And so that's what you get with this guy. The question is, is it rabbits and silliness, or is it the real thing? And does it hardly matter given the seriousness shares go up, right?

Don't they? See, this is a problem. When you control a board and you have made all the board members a lot of money, you end up doing deals that have no fiduciary oversight. So in this instance— and this shit is boring, but no one pays attention to this stuff— it was a share-for-share deal when, when SpaceX acquired XAI, and they valued XAI at $76 and SpaceX at $520 If SpaceX had a board that could push back, they would say, "No, XAI is not worth in any way $270 billion," which is the value they're putting on Twitter with an AI veneer. "No, it's not worth that, so we're not taking that dilution." But because Elon owns equally large amounts in each, he doesn't care.

He doesn't care. That's why he's gonna have control, right?

But meanwhile, SpaceX shareholders, in my view, are getting fucked to try and bail out XAI.

And Twitter before that.

And Twitter, and bailed out.

And Tesla at some point.

And is bailing out Twitter shareholders who he promised, "Back me in this ridiculous overpay of $44 billion and I will figure out a way to get you your money back." But the problem is there's no one who has, who can be a real fiduciary here and stand up for the shareholders they're supposed to represent because Musk is in charge. See above, two-class shareholder company.

Agree. No, I think you've got it just right. And you know what? I hope he gets a million robots. I've heard his robotic stuff is revolutionary. But like just land it, land the fucking plane, so as they say. But you know, it doesn't matter. These shares are gonna jump. They're just, he has this incredible ability to do so. He's the, Steve Jobs used to supposedly have this reality distortion field except he actually delivered real company products. I think he's got a reality distortion field. Sometimes things happen, sometimes they don't. All right, we're gonna go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll do a quick roundup of the rest of this week's news. There's so much news.

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made quite an impression as usual this week testifying for Congress. Besides heavy breathing on the microphone, which was disturbing, let's hear a clip of him defending Trump math while Senator Elizabeth Warren tries to ask a question.

There's two ways of calculating percentage. If you have a $600 drug and you reduce it to $10, that's a 600% reduction.

He just kept going on the math. Elizabeth Warren wasn't having any of it. Um, meanwhile, a report showing the efficacy of COVID-19 vaccines has been blocked from being published in the CDC and Prevention's scientific journal. It's the second time they're doing trying to pretend these vaccines didn't work. Thoughts very quickly.

I think Hagsath is doing more damage to people outside of the US than any person in recent history. And I think RFK Jr. is going to do more, cause more death, disease, and disability amongst Americans than any person in recent history. And President Trump has to take credit for that. But when you listen to the guy talk, he just, he absolutely has no qual— if there's one, I mean, you just did, you're doing a show on this. If there's one place you need to defer to the experts, and folks, expertise is an actual thing. It's around health. And they have clearly decided, "All right, this guy is a fucking loose cannon talking about raccoons' genitalia." And they have basically said, "Keep this guy out of the news." What's interesting is that if he had ovaries, they would've fired him by now. I mean, they seem to be quick to fire women.

Women. So the dirty-mouth lady left the Labor Department.

Yeah. I mean, the 3 people now that have been let go, all women.

Anyway— There was one guy. Phelan, who's fighting with Hegseth, but go ahead.

The Navy Secretary.

Yeah.

Yeah. So look, I think RFK Jr. is, and this word's overused, RFK Jr. is dangerous.

Murderous.

And no one loves, you know, no one loves RFK Jr. more than measles. And we're about to see, in my opinion, and we've already seen it, a potential comeback of some of the most devastating diseases which we had eradicated because of just junk science, head up your ass, grass beliefs and conspiracy theories. The fact that this guy has been charged with the health of America and oversees the CDC is going to set us back years, if not decades.

Decades. Decades. And also, he's just such a suck-up to Trump. Except let me just tell you, he's running for president too, by the way.

They're all running for president. They all wake up in the morning, look in the mirror, and say, hello, Madame or Mr. President.

All of these cannot be our president. Like, oh God, if I had to pick, I don't know what I would do. And I'm not gonna have to pick. I won't pick any of them. Um, very quickly, crypto billionaire Justin Sun has sued the Trump family's crypto venture, accusing criminal extortion for freezing digital tokens over his refusal to invest more money with the company. Over at Truth Social, Devin Nunes has departed as the company CEO after 4 years in the role where they made, I don't know, $5 million a year, and one year he was paid $46 million. $1 million. He's an incompetent moron. Thoughts on that? Just what a surprise, Justin's son. You tried to pay to get out of an SEC thing and they fucked you. What a surprise. Mobsters, mobsters are gonna mob. I don't know what else to say. And the Wyckoffs are involved somewhere in here. It's one of the children.

It goes to the notion of reckoning. I think it should be done to the letter of the law. But I, I think right now, uh, with the, uh, many of the people running for president or just many of our, our fine people serving in government, And the Congress should be outlining and putting out plans to work with, to coordinate with states' AGs. And Wyckoff's kids should not be getting $500 million investments from the Gulf, from who is meeting with a cabinet secretary.

I think they're getting rid of him.

That somewhere has to be a crime. And I think we have to start signaling we are going to pursue these crimes. And the statute of limitations, I believe, believe on the emoluments, whatever it is. This is probably— this is probably— I bet there's some very serious crimes this could potentially— under defense threats. So, but the fact that I went to an event where Stephen Witkoff— I spoke right after him— I just can't get over— and the vice president, Vice President Gore was there. I mean, this guy is engaging in naked Rationality. And by the way, I don't think it should be political retribution. I think we also should go after some Democrats specifically around insider trading.

Well, let me get to that. For the prediction market news, Cauchy has fined and suspended 3 congressional candidates, both Democrats and Republicans, for betting on their own races. That's not allowed over there at Cauchy. Thoughts? All these rules have to go in place. A lot of companies are doing them now. Do not be betting on stuff like this. It is insider trading. I'm glad Cauchy called it out. That. Thoughts?

It was a brilliant move on Kalshi's part. I mean, okay, so there's good and really bad here. The good is that Kalshi has said, and this will cost them, that politicians will come out against them. They said, you're not allowed to do this, we're fining you. That's the good part. Good for them. Smart move politically, strategically for Tarek, the CEO of Kalshi. This is what's wrong with it. We shouldn't need companies to regulate themselves. We, the fact that, you know, the marketplace hates a void, it hates a vacuum. There's so little regulation that the company itself is fining people. It's like, if, what if, what if all of a sudden Chevron said, okay, you are manufacturing our oil and putting too much carbon into the air because we are so fucking freaked out about the lack of an EPA. That's where we are right now. The only regulation that's come down the pike in this stuff has usually been regulation to stop regulation. And so when companies feel— everybody hopes that a company's gonna weigh in and regulate themselves. That is not the way to run industry or a country. Not at all.

And they are, they are in some cases. Several companies have put in rules about this, but it's insider trading is all we have to— it's insider trading.

But the fact that just gives you a sense for the fact there's no sheriff here. It's basically basically this is, to a certain extent, it's kind of like vigilantism. That because there's no sheriff around, we have to enforce the law. So good on Koushi, but it's a terrible indictment on our lack of regulatory infrastructure.

Agreed. One of them said he was doing it for a reason to show how bad it was. Give me a break. Anyway, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. Honest to God, like, fuck skinny. I want to be jacked. Without context, tone and sculpt are rooted in diet culture. We're inheriting a lot of nonsense that makes specifically women feel like they have to shrink in order to expand. And I'm just saying, no, let's just like lift heavy shit and like take up space. That's the expansion. I'm Raben Artzoun, and this week on Project Swagger, I break down the strategies that helped me build confidence and feel at home in my body, especially after two babies. Listen now at Project Swagger wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Midge First, two-time Indy Brazil champion, championship MVP, and forward for the US Women's National Team. Before I went pro, I graduated from Harvard with a degree in psychology, which comes in handy more than you think. Any Any athlete pursuing greatness knows there's a certain mentality you have to have. What people don't know is what that costs. In my podcast, Confessions of an Elite Athlete, I sit down with the best athletes in the world and explore the psychology, mindset, and unseen battles on the path to greatness.

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Immigration may be Donald Trump's signature issue.

President Trump is now targeting predominantly Democratic cities for ICE raids and deportations. Dozens of protesters clashing with Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents in Minneapolis.

We will begin the process of returning millions Millions and millions of criminal aliens back to the places from which they came. But what we want to do in this space is talk about America and politics beyond the current president. So what do most Americans think about deportation and border security, period?

I think that Americans are definitely against the kind of violent displays that we've seen in the street from ICE. When it comes to the question of deportation, the answer is more complicated. My sense is that people want order at the border. They don't like the idea of having no idea who's coming into the United States at any given time.

The view on immigration from the bottom up instead of the top down. That's this week on America Actually, every Saturday in your audio and video feeds.

Okay, Scott, we're gonna do some predictions very quickly so people know Warner Brothers shareholders just approved the deal with Paramount. Although it's facing a lot of regulatory scrutiny, I suspect it'll get through, but it's going to be a lot bumpier. And so that's going to be an interesting thing. There's a lot of pushback from Hollywood, all kinds of regulators. So even if it's just reached this step, I got my thing in the mail. I own some Warner shares. Thanks for the money, David. It's— we'll see where it goes. I don't know. There might be a little rockier than people think, but they'll probably shove it through because they've only got a few months before Trump loses a lot of a lot of power. Your prediction?

By the way, it's right now on the prediction markets, it's saying that the likelihood it closes around 72%, which is less than I thought.

Yeah.

They're saying there's a real, there's like a 1 in 3 chance it doesn't close.

Yeah, there's some rockiness there. Anyway, go ahead.

Yeah, I think so. My prediction is that when the SpaceX value, when the SpaceX IPO goes out, you will see an almost, not an equivalent, but a proportionate decline in the value of Tesla, because right now investors are paying for that Elon premium, and that is an inflated multiple in exchange for Musk's charisma and vision. And right now Tesla's forward P/E is 185. That's 12 times higher than the auto industry. And basically they're, they're paying 12 times what anyone else is garnering in the auto industry for a car company that has posted sales declines for 2 years in a row. And abroad, BYD has surpassed Tesla as the largest seller of EVs and eating away its European share. In addition—

The new battery technology they're doing in China right now that looks really promising. Go ahead.

In addition, Robotaxi and Optimus are long shot bets that may not pay off for 5 years if at all. So essentially all of a sudden retail investors are gonna have an opportunity to buy into some of that Elon vision and magic, but with SpaceX. And so I think that magic acolyte worship of that creates that 185 times earnings of Tesla is gonna massively deflate 'cause I think all of that idolatry revenue is gonna go into SpaceX. SpaceX.

Oh, that's interesting. So boom. What if he merges it in? They need robots at their data centers in space.

You've predicted that for a while.

I, I was right about the last one.

Yeah, you put it— well, okay, that's a whole different ball game. But if there's— assuming they maintain distinct capital structures, you're going to basically see just a massive transfer of market cap from Tesla to SpaceX.

The stuffing gets knocked out of Tesla. They're not going to make the robots that are gonna run the data centers in space.

I look, I think industrial, industrialized robots are incredibly exciting. I, I think the notion that you're gonna have a robot in your house bringing you your soup or whatever, I just don't, I don't, I don't see that.

I'm gonna have that for you when you're old in case you're—

I've already got a Filipino man named Manny with well-moisturized hands lined up.

No, he's getting a robot named Barbara.

You're gonna push me around. You're gonna have trouble seeing over the back of my wheelchair. And I'll tell you, Dirty jokes, and you'll tell me to stop.

I keep hitting you on the head. Like, I can't believe you said that back in 2014.

We're late for our podcast.

I know.

They won a Webby 40 years ago.

Yeah, that's true.

We didn't talk about the Webbys.

Oh my God, we won a Webby. We won both Webbys, all of us. And also Lost Boys got one, right? Is that correct?

So you won for On with Kara Swisher.

Interview.

And Pivot won its third year in a row for best business podcast. And my newsletter, No Mercy, No Malice, won for best business newsletter. And—

It's a great business newsletter.

Thank you. And Lost Boys won for best special series co-hosted with the Mooch. 5 Webby wins between the two of us, Kara.

Anyway, we appreciate that. We like the Webbys. We have fun with them. Anyway, that's a fun show. We wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to ny mag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, that's the show. Very good show, Scott. That was a very good discussion. I appreciate it.

I think where I came across as defensive.

No, you didn't. No, you didn't. You didn't.

No, I think I did.

No, you didn't. No, it was called a discussion. Anyway.

When will I be enough, Kara?

Never. Thanks for listening to Pivot, and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back next week.

Today's show was produced by Lara Namensway, Marcus Taylor-Griffin, and Todd Weissman. Ernie Urtad engineered this episode. Manolo Moreno edited the video. Video. Thanks also to Dubrow, Mia Severo, and Dan Shalon. Yashar Khorra is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at ny mag.com/pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.