Transcript of Tariff Turmoil, Trump's Netflix Threat, and SOTU Predictions

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It's like that little monkey who is rejected by his family and found a plushy. I saw that, and granted, I think I was on an edible, and I'm like, That's my purpose in life is to be other people's plushy.

Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York magazine in the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swischer.

And I'm Scott Galloway.

Scott, you're missing the blizzard. As we tape, over 40 million people in the US are under a blizzard warning, by the way, and snow dropping three inches an hour in some locations. It really is still going on here in New York, and it's crazy. There's a lot of snow happening. We all thought the snow was over. Maybe I'll go take a walk in New York and walk in the Central Park and contemplate my life.

See what I would do? Go to chez Margot and get fucked up and establish eye contact with a nice young Russian lady I'm getting an award tonight in Brooklyn.

I've got to go out to Brooklyn. Of course you are. I am. I'm getting the Governor's award.

I'm getting an award tonight in Brooklyn. That is the most Kara Swisher thing ever said. I'm getting an award in Brooklyn.

Yes, I have to go there. Yeah, it's the Ambies.

Okay, all right, fine. I'll play along. I don't know.

It's the new... It's the Oscars of Podcasting.

What are you getting an award for?

For being old, for the Governor's Award.

The Oscars of Podcasting. I thought that was the vibe. What is it called?

No, not those. No, that's the...

The Signal Awards?

No, I don't know. Whatever. They're trying to make Fetch happen with awards.

Two white guys with a mic. That's a podcast.

This is not the BAFTAs or the Oscars. This is the podcast version. I'm getting the great contributions to podcasting award. Really? I guess. I don't know, Scott. Anyway, here's something crazy going on. Mexican security forces killed the leader of the Jalisco New Generation Cartel and eight other cartel members in a Mexican military operation aided by US intelligence support. Then they went crazy, these cartels. They're in Puerto Vallarta, like Captain Steoping. That's how I know Puerto Vallarta from Loveboat. They're bombing the whole place. All these Americans have been either diverted from going there or cannot leave there. Not just Americans, but lots of people. They're attacking neighborhoods. This footage is really something, all these burnt cars. It's really something. I don't know what you think about it.

The issue is it's not... I mean, it's violence, but it feels like it's more structural governance in an economic issue that's been evolving for nearly two decades. That is, these cartels are so inextricably integrated into the economy and even the government.

That's a really good point.

It's not a traditional traditional drug war in the old sense. It's fragmentation and power vacuums. After the breakup of more powerful consolidated cartels, dozens of regional groups now compete for territory in trafficking routes and increasingly diversified revenue streams. Things like fuel theft, extortion, human smuggling. I mean, all kinds of... Supposedly, they've interrupted the avocado supply chain. It Oftentimes, the violence is about local market control because Mexico is a big economy rather than just narcotics exports.

No, I get that. It's just that this is the reaction to just show what they can do to upset economics, right? I guess that's what they're doing.

I mean, the thing that does so much damage to this, hands down, my favorite place to travel in the world, and I'm very fortunate, I get to go to a lot of- You love Mexico. Every year, I go with a group of guys to Tulum. I love Cabo. I think San Miguel de Allia. I just think Mexico, I also think it's the best bargain in the world. It's six-star service and food and culture and vistas for four-star prices, whereas in Europe, you get a lot of five-star service for six our prices. I absolutely love the food, the culture, the people. What happens is Americans immediately are like, Oh, no, I'm not going to travel there. The reality is most of this violence is confined to what I'll call Mexican on Mexican violence. But it makes you think, should I- Still, these photos of tourists, they're all in their hotels near beaches, and they're just showing enormous amounts of fires.

I guess there was one guy who was in his hotel room, and these two cartel members, they're on a motorcycle set fire to a version of a 711 there, just in front of him. It's really interesting to experience it this way, online. Hey, I was down here having a margarita, and, oh, yeah, the drug cartels just bombed a car in my neighborhood.

But this does signal a shift because in recent years, Mexico's federal strategy, and some people call it appeasement, has been more about containment over confrontation. This is confrontation. Also, we don't want to have an honest conversation. The US plays a role here. There's a dimension here, and that is a lot of our firearms flow south. You know what drives a lot of the profits here is US drug demand. Fentanyl production and trafficking have reshaped the supply chain and the economics of the trade. Lower input costs, much higher potency, smaller shipping volumes. The power or economic potency of synthetics have changed the incentive structure. You don't need large cocoa fields or massive drug smuggling convoys. You need chemical precursors in distribution networks and enforcement muscle. But let me be clear, I'm still going to Mexico. I love Mexico.

Anyway, it's a black eye for Claudia Scheinbaum, I have to say, even if the US helped her and stuff like that.

Is it a black eye or does she show some muscle here? I don't know.

By doing something about it. I don't know. I don't know. We're going to keep watching it, and I hope people there are safe. How is Resistant Unsubscribed going? Some of you have been writing in asking for alternatives to big tech that they're unsubscribing from. We asked David Pears, Editor at Large at The Verge, and co-host of The Verge cast, to give us some recommendations. Let's listen to what he to say.

If I was trying to get rid of big tech apps in my life, my top three or four recommendations would definitely start with Proton. Proton is this company started by a bunch of CERN scientists in Switzerland that is very privacy-focused. And over the years, they've actually built a series of apps that are basically as good as everything you get from Google. They have a drive, they have an email, they have calendar, they have all this stuff. The next one is probably Signal, which is the messaging app I think everyone should switch to. There are things that are good about WhatsApp, even though it's owned by Meta. But Signal is a organization run by the right people who believe in the right things. And then the third one is slightly more a field. But I would say anyone who wants to do smart home stuff in their life right now should use Home Assistant. You can use Alexa, you can use Home Kit, you can use Google. But Home Assistant is this very specific, hackable, open system that you control much more completely than you control any of those other systems. Everything from the stuff on your doorbell that's looking out at the world and seeing people come up to your door to the baby monitors inside of your house.

Who runs that stuff matters.

That was great. That was great. Those are all three terrific recommendations.

So what's going on, Scott? Well, first off, it bears repeating, you have been the biggest supporter of this, and I very much appreciate it. No problem. But as we wind down February, so the two objectives were what I call signal and incentives. Wanted to send a signal to the American that they have this weapon hiding in plain sight and that their economic decisions can have an impact. I think we've hit that on all levels. We've gotten just a ton of media exposure, a ton of unsubscribes, people, I I do think there's a large percentage of the populace who now realizes that economic strength is strength. The second objective was incentives, and that is to reconfigure the incentives among big tech executives to think twice before they enable or facilitate. I'm not sure we've accomplished that, quite frankly. Not yet. My My friends have said it's a conversation on product management teams, but it's not a board-level conversation yet. The question is, as we wind down February, what do we do? I was contacted by the Dutch historian, Rutger Bregman, who's been instrumental in this. He's great. Yeah, I'm a huge fan. By the way, he's only 37.

He's a lovely guy.

Yeah, and they're super smart. He reached out and said- Just FYI, for people who don't know, he confronted the issue of billionaires at Davos and got a lot of attention from it. He called him a bunch of tax avoiders. He basically said, None of you want to talk about the real issue on the table, which is tax avoidance. He's unafraid. I love the guy. Anyways, I love authors and academics who are just unafraid. He contacted me and said, You've got the brand, the visibility, and the momentum. We have this group of really talented young people and some traction in something called QuitGPT. His view is you need to consolidate and focus on one and try and bring them down. We're trying to figure out. We've decided we're going to continue with something in March, but we're trying We're trying to figure out what are the learnings, how do we be more impactful, and how do we keep our momentum going. I'm going to speak to you about it and some other people. But I've had a bunch of organizations, a bunch of congresspeople, elected representatives all say, How do we continue this and how do we make it more effective?

I did an analysis. For us to get the number of unique visitors to our site, if we paid for it, and we haven't paid a dime, would cost us somewhere between $5 and $9 million. It just shows the power of social media in terms of the platforms we've built and the content stream we have and how powerful podcasts are driving. But I need to, in the next several days, figure out what we do in March. Is it focusing? Is it different media outlets? What is it that helps maintain this momentum? Is it consolidating? There are three or four similar movements around the world. Do we all consolidate? I was on a call with Recorded Ed, and I was like, If the British, the Russians, and the Americans can come together to defeat Germany, maybe we should figure out a way to all consolidate and come together. But the two points are to still down to a smaller number of targets, if you will, and also do what you said, structure some full-time resources.

Yeah, I think so. That they just tell you what to do, essentially. There's a lot of people who do that. One of the things that's... Someone who I'm really impressed with, Amanda Lippmann, who runs Run For Something. I had her on the podcast. She's incredibly strategic in terms of figuring out what people need to do, especially young people. It seems like this is something you need to get people who are actually a little more that really can focus it energetically. I don't mean professionally, because there's a lot of professional organizers that don't really get stuff done. I think you've really caught lightning in a bottle here, and you've got to keep doing it. Anyway, we're still working on an event, Scott and I are, and so we're going to do that, hopefully, and we'll see where it goes from there. But let's move on to the stuff we have to cover today. Donald Trump is increasing his global terrorist to 15% from 10%, effective immediately just days after the Supreme Court struck down most of his global tariffs. In a 6: 00 to 3: 00 decision, the court ruled that Trump exceeded his authority when he invoked the Emergency Power Act.

Trump called the decision ridiculous and anti-American. He also insulted the justices personally quite a bit. It was worse than that. He's just being a giant fucking baby. His latest workaround uses a 1974 trade law that allows him to impose temporary terrorist for in 50 days. He just posted on True Social a little while ago about the court empowering him to use the terrorist in a more powerful and obnoxious way. The court, let me be clear, was very clear about what he was doing was illegal, essentially. And that the Congress and Gorsuch, the Judge Gorsuch, had a really eviscerating take on how Congress has abrogated its responsibility. One of the other justices who was against it questions if the refunds could happen. Scott Besson is trying to hedge that bet because they've got to give billions, many billions, I think 175 billion, something like that in returns to US businesses, et cetera. The repercussions of this tariff decision, the EU just hit pause on its US Trade deal until it gets more clarity on what Trump is doing. Thousands of companies around the world have already filed lawsuits challenging the terrorists even before the Supreme Court's ruling.

So there's a market in that. Estimates suggest the government could owe, again, more than $175 billion in refunds. The Supreme Court is leaving the refund question. Lower courts, this is just Kavanaugh who were in the process. It's going to be a mess, and it is. Let's listen to Secretary Besson, what he said about these payouts. He spoke to Fox News after the decision.

This could take months.

This could take years to litigate and to get to the payouts. If there is a payout, it looks like it's just going to be the ultimate corporate welfare.

Oh, please, Scott, you took the money from them. Give it back. Talk about what the next move is for everybody and the reaction that Trump had, which I honestly thought it was dangerous given the political heat right now, especially for the Supreme Court justices.

It's weird. Everyone says he's a loser. There's no doubt it's a check on his authority and a rejection or a gag reflex. The primary purpose or power of Congress is the power of the purse. They're the ones that are supposed to... I mean, what you've had on a meta level, and Barry Goldwater back in the '70s, warned of this, there's been a slow abrogation of power to the executive branch. A lot of the power was checked by norms, not by laws. Then someone showed up and said, Fuck norms. I'm declaring wars and tariffs on my own. One of the reasons you've seen so many Republican congresspeople decide to retire is they're like, it's one thing to be in the minority and know that you've been defenestrated or neutered. It's another thing to be in the majority. The speaker of the House is not the speaker of the House. He's the speaker of the White House. He's there just to run roughshot over us and pretend he represents Congress. He doesn't. He represents the President. Republicans are like, wait, I thought we were in charge and had some say here, and we don't. And these tariffs would not have gone through.

There are enough Republicans against the tariffs. They're supposed to be the free marketers. So this is a victory for co-equal branches of government and Congress controlling the purse. I I think it's a huge victory for the Supreme Court, who was looking increasingly like Trump's acolytes. This does look like the independence of the court. 6: 00 to 3: 00 is pretty resounding. In a weird way, I thought this gave Trump an off-ramp from what was clearly a failed economic policy. That I thought the economy in the stock market would actually probably go up. What was interesting is the reaction The market was slightly up, but now it's looking like he's going to use another provision, 122, which only lasts 150 days. But it's more inconsistency, and we've said this for a long time, more than the terrorists themselves, the most damaging thing to American trade policy is inconsistency. No small business knows how to plan their business against what will be tariffs or not tariffs. What I've been tracking, I was working with a hedge fund trying to find tariff claims. If you're Mercedes of the United States and you paid 20 million tariffs, you could at one point potentially buy those claims for $0.

10 on the dollar. Now, those have accelerated to 20 to 40 cents on the dollar. But the reason they're not trading at $0. 60 or 80 cents on the dollar is the administration and complexity of potentially getting the money back. I think that's a red herring. I just don't. I think if they collected this money easily, I don't see why they can't reimburse it easily. It was all done digitally, so I don't buy that argument. But it's more indecision. It's more sclerotic decision making where people can't plan their business against. What you see is just a continued reconfiguration of the global supply chain around the US, where we have massively benefited over... Someone brought up the notion, the very simple notion Actually, I think it was Justin Wolfs had said, We have a trade deficit in the form of dollars, but we have a trade surplus in the form of stuff. The example is, I have a trade deficit with my barber, but my barber makes me look just fucking dreamy for very little money. It's a good trade. Us trade policy, while we give more paper money to them, we get so much shit because of the strength of the dollar.

I mean, stuff.

Trump is an economic imbecile. He's seeing things like he learned economics in fourth grade, and that's where he stuck.

If you export $100 with NVIDIA chips to Germany in exchange for $100 of a Mercedes G-Wagon, they operate a 10 points operating margin and get seven times EBITDA, so they get $70. We operate, NVIDIA operates at like 60 points operating margin and trades at 40, we get $2,400. I mean, if there's any asymmetry here of who has disproportionately benefited from global trade, it's been the US. We've been the big winner.

This is stuck in Trump's brain forever because he's just not... Honestly, he's not that smart, right? Just in a very basic way, he has this head in his brain, and then he has facilitators. And by the way, Scott Besset knows better, of course. He knows exactly what you know. I don't know what his game is. I mean, he's talking about tarnishing a reputation that he had that was pretty decent. But one of the things that's problematic is that he's operating economics for dummies or something. Because he sticks in his brain that this is the way things go. I think most people don't think about it in a complex way. I think the two things that I think about, were that the Serum Corps did him a favor here. He got to try out his stupid ideas.

He seems to be doubling down.

He's doubling down in a really demented way. The personal stuff that he was attacking them with. Their family We should be ashamed. Families and Barrett, Coney Barrett and Gorsuch, I think. Just really strange, just really, really strange. All they were saying was pointing out the obvious, which was this is something Congress should do. It's something Congress's job is to do. He just doesn't feel any restraints on himself. That's what it is. It's like old man combined with someone who's already an ego maniac and a narcist, combined with more old man, combined with he gets to do what he wants this term, and the victimization that he has is so massive that he's always being victimized. Someone's always fucking him. That's his whole worldview, that it's just we're being governed by a guy who just un Again, didn't. He's a victim. He thinks he's a victim. Anyway, we'll see. Where does it go from here, very briefly?

Well, on Cousy, they're saying it's a 76% chance the court orders a tariff refund before 2027. It does feel like he's running out of options. This Section 122 has a maximum of 150 days. Yeah, 50 days, right. The Supreme Court does seem pretty resolute on this, 6-3. I don't think it's going to get a lot of support from even Republicans or a congress. Like, Oh, wait, we have meaning again? You mean we get to actually have input? You actually have to this to us. If he thinks these tariffs have merit and they're good for the economy, then take it to Congress and work out a deal with them. That's what they're there for. That's right.

But he doesn't want to do that because he can't get it passed. Because he can't get it passed. He wants to do what he wants to do.

Because he can't justify it intellectually or economically. The amount of money, the prosperity we have recognized from global trade... Now, granted, some of his instincts are correct. We had an asymmetric relationship. We were getting taken advantage of, in my view, in terms of our relationship with China. They steal our IP and then sell us stuff at 60 cents on the dollar. We are not good at looking after people who are on the wrong end of global trade.

But he's never doing that. He just tells them he's here for them, but then he doesn't actually do anything for them.

Then if you want to look at the manufacturing sector that was supposed to be rejuvenated, that has not happened. What has happened is that the tourist industry, which employs 12 million people versus the manufacturing industry, which employs 11 million, is taking a real hit because Canadians are thinking, No, I'm not going to Disneyland or Las Vegas this year.

Look at that. Did you see that story about that British woman who was put into ICE for six weeks?

Well, checking There are people who have to turn over their phone and they're being asked for their password. It's like, Fuck that. I'll go to Capri or I'll go to Buenos Aires. I'll do something else. I would think every tourism board in the world is like, Come here, we'll take your money.

Yeah, Anyway. Okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, get ready for Trump's State of the Union. Support for this show comes from Delete Me. Whether you're a public figure or a private citizen, it's easier than ever for bad actors to get your personal information. I've tried delete me a lot, and I really have had a great time figuring out how much information data brokers have about me. It's scary and it's surprising, and I am always disturbed by how much they bring together and how sometimes wrong it is. It's really important to get your data in line with things. A dashboard on delete me is very easy to use, and you can tell them what you want deleted and what you want to keep an eye on. Delete me makes it easy, quick, and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. With DeleteMe, you can protect your personal privacy or the privacy your business from doxing attacks before sensitive information can be exploited. The New York Times Wirecutter has named DeleteMe their top pick for data removal services compared to others out there.

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Scott, we're back. As we record, we're one day away from Trump's State of the Union speech. This will appear on the day of it. He's walking in with a 60% disapproval rating, according to a New Washington Post, ABC Ipso's poll. House Minority Leader, Hakeem Jeffrey is urging Democrats to either attend in silent defiance or skip the speech. A growing number of Democrats plan to attend a counter rally on the National Mall called the People's State of the Union. Virginia Governor Abogal's bandwidth is delivering the official Democratic response. It's a good choice. What do you think of this?

I'm wondering if and when we bomb Iran. I don't think he has a lot to... I don't know. I think his speechwriters are scratching their head.

Apparently, Vance previewed it. Apparently, he's going to talk about how manufacturing is coming back to the US tomorrow. It's like an Elon promise of a ton of us.

I think the screenshots here are going to be really hilarious. The audience reaction, I think there's even going to be some Republicans who are like, Oh, yeah, flight clap. Yeah, that's not working here. I think it's going to be very interesting, but I feel as if they're like, Okay, how do we turn chicken shit into chicken salad here?

Yeah, they're going to took... Vance, apparently, gave an interview where he's talking about how we're going to suddenly have factories everywhere. It's all made up, literally. It feels like there was a really interesting meme online of Elon promising autonomy for 10 years, tomorrow, next week. They're going to try to say everything's great with the economy, which to me, when Biden did that, was so ineffective when people know that's not the case. I think these numbers are just astonishing that he keeps doubling down on these 60% disapproval is so high. I think it was this number right after the January sixth attack on the Capitol. I think that's where we are right now. It'll be interesting. I think there's a high chance of crazy, that he does something nuts.

Just goes unschained.

Unchained. He says something cookey or he loses his words. I wouldn't get up there if I were him. Of course, he's going to have pancake makeup caked on his hand. By the way, whoever is doing that, I can tell you there are Hollywood people that can make that hand look better. I keep looking at it. I'm like, What is his secretary doing it? Or with a bunch of sheep makeup? It's really weird. I feel like they could do a better job.

I think it's the same person that came up with a tariff strategy.

Right, exactly. It's Peter Navarro, slabbering Mac makeup.

Hold your hand out. It's not even Mac makeup. My niece works at Sephora. This is how you do it.

But seriously, I think it is a good chance of crazy. A high chance of crazy, like something. I wouldn't do it if I were him. I'd find some dumb excuse not to do it. But he's now a heat-seeking missile. Have you noticed how much he's been appearing? He keeps appearing everywhere. I don't know. I just feel like it's bad. We'll see what happens. But at the very least, if he doesn't say something crazy, poop his pants or lose his words, and it'll be fine, I guess, and doesn't just lie too much. I don't know. What should the Democrats do? Just show up and say nothing, stare angrily?

I think you just sit there and look like, okay- Are you fucking kidding me? This dude has lost his shit. I don't know what they should do. I don't think they acquit yourself like the elected leaders you are and just be polite.

Should they not go? The Supreme Court has to go, all of them, right? Don't you think?

Yeah, as do our elected representatives. I just hate the idea of whoever's President, half the house doesn't show up. I think there's a certain decorum. It's the State of the Union. Show up. You don't have to smile. You don't have to applaud. But yeah, I think you show up. And of course, the Supreme Court should show up.

Yeah. Maybe he'll tell us they're aliens. Maybe that's what he's going to do. I don't know. Something. He's going to have to have a jazz hands. It He shouldn't use his hands too much, let's just say.

I'm just praying that the teleprompter goes down and he goes full apeshit crazy. Yeah, I know, apeshit crazy. I hope it's two gin and tonics for drunk uncle.

No, but he doesn't drink. Remember, he doesn't drink. Remember his brother with a diet of alcoholism? He's like, anti-drinking.

But other than that, Cara, how is his brother doing?

It's dead. All right.

Do you ever run into a friend and you ask how their dad is and you didn't notice? Like, Oh, my dad passed a year ago. Oh, but wait, other than that, how's he doing? You don't do that. That's how it's my response.

You never do that.

I totally do that. What are you supposed to say? What I find is people don't go, Oh, I'm sorry. It's like, Well, dude, he died a year ago. I'm fine. I didn't think you'd make a joke out of it. Okay. All right.

Well, my mom's still living, just to remember that. All right. Lucky. Lucky. She's good. I got her a Lazy Boy.

That's the greatest innovation in Hollywood. It's not AI. It's Lazy Boys in Theater.

Can I just say it stands up now. It's so good. I took her to lunch. I lift her right out of that chair, stuck her. Anyway, she She loves her Lazy Boy.

She loves her Lazy.

I'm just saying I'm getting you one.

I want one with wheels where I can just fly down the avenue.

No, we're going to keep you in a room, and that's going to be the end of it. This is one I've been really excited to talk to you about. President Trump has called on Netflix to fire board member Susan Rice or, Pay the Consequences after Rice said Democrats would push for corporate accountability. The DOJ is investigating Netflix's proposed takeover of Warner Brothers and whether the deal may, substantially lessen competition. Paramount saying there's no statutory impediment to closing its deal for Warner Brothers after clearing a US antitrust waiting period. This is not true. Regulars could still stop to sue. But of course, there's the EU and other ways. This was a press release. Meanwhile, a group of Democratic senators is threatening to investigate Paramount seeking information on the company's contacts with the Trump administration. As we tape, the seven-day window for Warner Brothers to talk with Paramount is nearing an end at 11: 59 PM on on Monday. So talk about this, this Trump thing. Susan Rice? Maybe it'll have an implication. I don't know. It's just weird. You can't make... He had tried to get Lisa Monaco from stopping working at Microsoft. Microsoft just ignored him, essentially.

And she's still working there. Do you think it's important? What do you think here?

Yeah, it's incredibly socialist. Capital markets function on the assumption that boards are accountable to shareholders, that regulatory authority is exercised through formal channels, and that political powers and uses leverage in private corporate disputes. When those lines erode, you introduce political risk and into ordinary governance decisions. Capitalism is supposed to be regulated, competition. A guy who just has a history of bankrupting casinos and leaving a stream of unpaid subcontractors who got rich through a grift monetizing the White House is not the person to be telling companies. It's totally anathema to the way America has built its economy. When political actors treat corporate boards as cultural battlegrounds, you shift from rules-based capitalism to personality-driven capitalism. Investors can price regulation, but they struggle to price discretionary political targeting. So does this mean every time the administration changes, we invest in companies that have Democratic board members versus Republican board members? Yeah, exactly. Practically, if presidents start leaning on boards, it invites Congress regulators and state officials to do the same. That's not market discipline.

We won't give I can't view this unless you get rid of this person. I mean, so far, again, it didn't work with Lisa Monaco at Microsoft. They just basically ignored the request.

I was with some Netflix people. I went to the BAFTA Awards last night. Oh, you did?

Wait, you went to BAFTA? Hello.

Where are the lead? What did you wear? I didn't know BAFTA was a big deal, and I showed up just with a blazer. Then Ted Serandos came up to me in a tux. I'm like, Oh, God, I fucked up. Yeah, he was there. Yeah, but everyone Yeah, it was really fancy. A friend of mine took me to dinner and said, Do you want to go to the BAFTA Awards? I was like, Yeah. Anyways, I have no inside information here, but I know what Smart Class Act Netflix management is. I'm sure if they haven't already, they'll put out a statement of support for Susan Rice. This has become so obviously he's now supporting Paramount, but I talked to some Netflix. I think that at this point, so much testosterone has gotten involved in this. If you had asked either the Ellison's or Ted Serrando six months ago, Are you willing? Would you ever pay $82 billion for Warner? They'd say, No fucking way. It's not worth that in any world. But because Zaslop, to his credit, is not a great operator, but he's an outstanding investment banker, he has played them off each other and convinced both of them to overpay.

If the Ellison's end up getting this and Netflix doesn't, my prediction is that Netflix stock is up 10 to 20 %. Because with $80 billion, Netflix can create just a shit ton of content, new verticals, new markets, new subscription plans. They'll be able to... At this point, I think it would almost be better for them if they lost and they just sue the shit out of Paramount and the government and basically keep Hollywood in a state of flux. Stasis, yeah. And they're the winner. They'll keep on humming. I mean, that company is firing on all 12,000 cylinders with content production all over the world. They're the default, right? You have to, even in the resist and unsubscribed, people would say, I'm going down to one streaming media platform. And if you go down to one, who do you choose? Netflix, absolutely. You choose Netflix. It's the... Everyone else is heated seats and carsterios, they're the engine in the car itself. They're the chassis, so to speak.

It would be Netflix or Disney, right?

Because it's- If you have young kids and you don't watch TV, maybe. Well, I guess we do.

I watch a lot of TV, you're to watch it at night.

But yeah, what you're going to see here, I think, is that even if the Ellison's get it, if Netflix could block the closing of the acquisition until the next administration, they We might be able to overturn it because- That's right. The whole point of capitalism is it's pretty basic in M&A. Whoever shows up with more money gets approved by shareholders, and then it has to survive regulatory review. The President has no role in any of that. That's not what he's there for. The whole point of government is we let our thoroughbreds run. We have antitrust, we have regulatory concerns, we have CIFIAS, security concerns. But you're supposed... Guess what? The American Corporation is the second best performing organizations in history, only behind the US military. We create these out of control, full body contact, violence, not a ton of regulation, low regulation rules, regulated competition, produces unprecedented profits, prosperity, and innovation. All of a sudden, you have a failed rich kid deciding who should own what.

Yeah, exactly. One of the things that has really struck me, look, Netflix will be fine without this. I think they really want it now. You know what I mean? I think they are willing- Ego is involved now, Cara. Not just ego, but it actually could be good for them, too.

I don't agree. I think with that money, they could build a bigger business on their own.

Possibly. You're right. You're absolutely right. They We'll be fine, whatever. In slowing everything down, they've created a slowdown for everybody, which is always good for them because they're faster. They were lapping Hollywood for years. I sat there, I was like, Why are you letting Netflix lap you all for years and years and years? They have that ability to do that, and they've always stayed fresh. They're a very fresh company, even as old as they are comparatively. They remain fresh and relevant. People are learning how to do what they do, but it's taken forever for Hollywood to do so. One of the things that just gets me is, one, the efforts of Paramount are, one, to run a shitty business and show that you cannot do content, whether it's over at CBS News or losing Taylor Sheridan.

Come on, landman. The world I love before HR. I love Landman. Okay, I know you do. A bunch of men drilling where they're not supposed to drill. People die, and then they pay them off and everything's better.

How could you ruin 60 Minutes? What a bunch of fucking idiots. I'm sorry. How could you get Anderson Cooper to walk out? He's such a polite young man. It's just like you're a bunch of dummies. I'm sorry, I like some of you, but seriously, this is ridiculous. It comes from the top. I'm sorry. Getting Daddy to pay for it is really depressing on so many levels. It's so sad. It's like sad rich kid. Let me just tell you, guess who's coming for you? You think the Democrats won't do anything? You are wrong, Paramount. They are coming at you. If they win these elections, it's going to be a long time before you get your hands on CNN. It's going to be a long time before you get your hands on any of this. Then let's stop at European regulators. By the way, now people in Hollywood don't all love Netflix. That is 100% clear. But now suddenly a lot of Hollywood people like Mark Ruffalo, very liberal, is pushing back against a James Cameron because he loves theaters, whatever. There's now a growing like, Hey, leave Netflix alone, which is incredible because they're so bossy to most of Hollywood.

Paramount, you have managed to shoot yourself in every foot possible, every toe in the way you've conducted this. Just throw the money at it as you should have done in the first place and just take Daddy's money and buy it. But you're still not going to get it easily, especially because you're stressing all this closeness with the Trump administration. It's not going to end well for you in three or four months.

In the first Star Wars, Jedi, obi-1 Kenobi is on the Millennium Falcon, and he fills a disturbance in the forest, and he has to sit down, and he goes, It's as if millions of people just screamed and then nothing. He's referring to the Death Star, which builds a capability to destroy planets, and Northvader orders the destruction of all on. You are going to see if the Ellison's close, if Paramount closes on Warner Brothers, you are going to hear a scream from the creative community of which they're not even aware of. A Great. You have a melting ice cube in Paramount, and then you'll get this scale. They'll overpay. At this point, they're both overpaying. Whoever gets it is overpaying. Then Father Ellison is going to go, Okay, the only way we can get anything resembling a return is to reduce cost by 40%. The fact that SAG Aftra and the Writers Guild are not hair on fire about AI. You want to see AI come to an industry and destroy the labor? Oh, my God. Because Ted, whatever you think about Netflix, they like Hollywood. They still hire makeup artists. They still do things, I don't want to call it the old way.

But if If you want to talk about a destruction in human capital, wait till you see what happens here with the Ellison's. I think with CBS, they're like, All right, we have to make some bold, take some risk because this thing is just going away slowly. Not in this rinky-dink way.

I get it. I have a list of people that could have done that.

I think it's hard to defend the execution to date. They had to take some risks here. Definitely. I wouldn't have taken a lot of risks with 60 minutes. Not in the middle of this.

I would have waited until this deal was over and maybe hired a competent person, but that's a different story. Anyway, let's go on a quick break, and we come back, Investors Want Protection from AI. This is advertiser content brought to you by Stonyfield Organic.

Our cows, them going out to pasture, they love it. They're so excited to go out. Every day, they wait right at the door. In fact, we milk them and we just open up the laneway and let them just go right out to pasture. I'm Rhonda Miller-Goodrich, and I'm a dairy farmer in Cabot, Vermont. Our farm is Mollebrook Farm. We're an organic dairy farm, and we are a supplier to Stonyfield. Mollebrooke Farm has been in my husband's family since 1835. We started our organic transition in 2015. We had 53 acres of corn ground, and of course, we had to use herbicides and pesticides, and the soil was dead, really, for all intents purposes. We stopped growing corn and stopped using herbicides and pesticides, and we seeded that down to perennial grasses. After that, we began to see biodiversity in that soil again. To be organic certified, our cows need to be in pasture at least 120 days. I think the organic practices really benefit our animals. Having good feed, good water, a nice light area, that's what's important to us, and that's what's important to Stonyfield. Visit stonyfield. Com to find Stonyfield Organic Yogurt near you.

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Hey, Kara Swischer here. I want to let you know that Vox Media is returning to South by Southwest in Austin for live tapings of your favorite podcast. Join us from March 13th through the 15th for live tapings of Today Explained, Teffy Talks, Prof. G. Markets, and of course, your two favorite podcasts, Pivot and On with Kara Swischer. The stage will also feature sessions from Brené Brown and Adam Grant, Marques Brownly, Keith Lee, Vivian Two, and Robin Arzon. It's all part of the Vox Media podcast stage at South by Southwest, presented by Odoo. Visit voxmedia. Com/sxsw to preregister and get your special discount on your innovation badge. That's voxmedia. Com/sxsw to register. Really, you should register. We sell out and we hope to see you there. Scott, we're back. This is really interesting because you've talked about the problems that companies not AI are having, but Wall Street is taking interest in a new category called halo companies, heavy assets, low obsolescence. Business is seen as largely immune to disruption from AI. Really interesting. S&p, 500 sectors for industrials, materials, utilities, and consumer staples have marched ahead in the last month. Companies like McDonald's and ExxonMobil are taking a win as investors try to take cover from potential AI disruption.

Now, you said a lot of these companies have suffered because AI has taken most of the gains in the stock market. Talk about this. This is a story in the Wall Street Journal, but it's something we've discussed before. It was the other 400 companies, not the top seven or whatever.

There's been a rotation out of AI companies into what are traditionally thought of as defense stocks, like Procter & Gamble or Caterpillar, but they have been run up. What you've had is you've had this weird phenomena where there's been a pretty serious multi-trillion dollar destruction in the private and public market valuations of the company's most tightly associated with AI, whether it's NVIDIA or Microsoft. They have all gotten hit pretty hard. What's also interesting, though, and then there's been a rotation into the defense of guys that are considered AI immune. Goldman Sachs put together an AI immune index. The opportunity in all of this, and where I'm actually thinking of investing, is that while AI stocks have come down, there's still a massive fear that they're going to destroy entire sectors. The sectors that are ground zero for this fear right now are traditional SaaS companies, Salesforce, ServiceNow, Adobe. The view is since this new innovation from Claude, that those businesses that someone will just automatically put in a prompt and all of a sudden overnight no longer need Salesforce for their CRM for their salespeople, and that overnight Salesforce is going to go away. I mean, Salesforce and Adobe and Service Now, these companies are off somewhere between 40 and 70%.

These companies, and by the way, there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever.

As you noted last week, yeah.

So these companies are growing at double digits and trading at free cash flows of multiples on free cash flow of 10 or 12. Meanwhile, some of these old economy companies that are growing at single digits are trading at much higher multiples. I would argue that one of the biggest opportunities in the market right now is the traditional SaaS companies as a multiple on their free cash flow.

This is beyond these halo companies, beyond the McDonald's.

No, I think the halo guys, quite frankly, are overpriced right now. Oh, interesting. They're low-growth companies trading at exceptional PEs. Meanwhile, I mean, keep in mind, if you think... So at all my companies, we've had Salesforce. I don't care if some kid came to me and said, Okay, we can replicate Salesforce with a thoughtful prompt into Anthropic. I'd be like, Okay, we're going to have to retrain everybody on a new UI. These companies get so... They have client service, they have events, they have worked out millions of bugs over a couple of years. I get invited to Dreamforce if I spend enough money. The thought that all of a sudden people are just going to strip out Adobe or Figma or ServiceNow is just these companies are so deeply embedded. You can call it technical debt, you can call it switching costs, whatever it is. In addition, if AI can actually take the coding down to something meaningless, then what will happen, I think, is that these SaaS companies will reduce their cost by or 20%, which gives you... Their actual coding and technical costs are only 10 or 20% of their revenue. The other 80% is marketing, branding, client service, design, events.

That shows you where the value is. They'll do the same thing and then pass on those savings. You might see some mild margin compression, but I think the flight into defensive stocks, I think that trade has been overdone. I think there's one of the biggest... I haven't been able to find value anywhere. I've been selling, not not buying. For the first time in a long time, I look at these SaaS companies, there is absolutely no evidence anywhere that a large corporation is giving up Adobe or Salesforce and putting in new prompts into AI. I think that threat has been massively overdone. Also, I think the rotation into these more traditional low-growth companies, quite frankly, I think those guys are really overvalued right now. These are low-growth companies trading at a tech growth multiples.

Yeah, I would agree. I think you're absolutely right. I think that's a really interesting take on that. It is interesting that people are looking beyond AI, right? Where are the opportunities? I think your argument is excellent. What are you buying?

I'm going to put together probably a basket of Figma, Adobe, Salesforce, maybe ServiceNow. But I look at those companies, and unless there's a collapse in their business model, do you know how hard it is to get rid of... I remember these companies are so deeply embedded. I remember we were paying $25,000 a year for my terminal for Bloomberg, and we thought, Okay, let's go to Thompson Reuters. It's cheaper. Bloomberg is so tightly integrated into your life if you're managing a hedge fund. Even messaging, the way we messaged other people in the hedge fund business.

Things do get replaced, though, over time, Scott.

I think what's going to happen here is margin compression- You used to buy in a box, if you remember, a lot of this stuff. But I think they'll cut costs. I mean, I still think, for example, Salesforce, I actually think it's really brilliant branding. They have built some of the tallest buildings in every one of their markets in the world. There's probably, if they needed to, quite a bit of costs they could cut and pass on to their consumers. There is.

That's because Mark Benioff has a penis building problem.

These are smart people. What they might say is if they see a threat, they might say, Oh, Salesforce is now 0. 6 X per seat versus X per seat. These are smart, well-run management teams. And by the way, no evidence whatsoever that any of this is impacting any of those companies.

Yes, that is the bigger point. All right, Scott's going different than halo. He's going, What are we going to call them? Not Dead S software as a service.

Abandoned. It's like that little monkey who who was rejected by his family and found a plushy. It's the plushy strategy.

I knew you watched that.

I can't stop watching that little monkey. I know. I can't stop watching.

Did you see the one where- His mom rejected him and they gave him a plushy. I know, but did you see the one where they... Speaking of AI use, where the monkey with the plushy attacks all the other monkeys.

That starts doing kung fu on them?

Yeah, starts doing kung fu on them. He's had enough. He's going to punch. Anyway.

I just thought... I saw that, and granted, I think I was on an edible, and I'm like, That's my purpose in life is to be other people's plushy.

That's my purpose. You are my plushy. Anyway, this could go somewhere weird really quickly, so I'm going to move on. One more quick break. We'll We're back for Wins and Fails.

This week on Networth and Chill, I'm joined by her first 100K, a. K. A. Tori Dunlop, a fellow personal finance creator who's changing how an entire generation thinks about money. Tori's journey is a masterclass in turning personal finance wins into a platform that empowers millions. She opens up about the real strategy behind hitting that six-figure milestone without the typical privileged blind advice and how she's redefining what it means to be a wealthy woman in We're diving deep into investment strategies for real people with real budgets and why financial feminism isn't just a buzzword, it's a movement. Get ready for an unfiltered conversation about money, entrepreneurship, and what it really takes to build both personal wealth and a business empire. Listen, wherever you get your podcast or watch on youtube. Com/yourrichbff.

All right, wins and fails. I shall go first because I have declared myself first. So win. The Olympics just ended. They were quite good. Us women, and women in general, dominated. America's female Olympians won six gold medals and 17 medals. Overall, American men won four gold medals and 12 medals over. It's not a competition, but they did really well. And in any case, One of the things I was really struck by was not an American, but someone who is American, Eileen Gu, who won the gold medal in the women's free ski half pipe event for China. She's been meddling for China, just won a couple of silvers. She's been really plagued by stupid questions, largely from male reporters. But she got asked a question when asked by a woman, Do you think about your words before you speak? It actually was a very complementary question, saying, You're so well-spoken and how do you do it? And so let's listen to her answer, which I thought was so superb. She's gorgeous, she's a model. She's a skier. She's an athlete, et cetera. Let's listen.

Do I think... I think overall, I'm just a pensive person. I'm a very introspective... I'm an introspective young woman. I spend a lot of time in my head, and it's not a bad place to be. I journal a lot. I break down all of my thought processes. I think I apply a very analytical lens to my own thinking, and I modify it because it's so interesting. You can control what you think. You can control how you think, and therefore you can control who you are. And especially as a young person, I'm 22, so with neuroplasticity on my side, I can literally become exactly who I want to be. How cool is that? How empowering that, right?

I think she was quite lively in a way that I really enjoyed listening to her push back against people. A lot of these athletes, whether they were some of the skaters, the women skaters were astonishing and they're their own people. I really enjoyed this for that, for all these athletes, especially women showing off. They don't have to be adorable little dolls. They were just their own people. I really like that. My fail is related. It's when Trump called the US Men's Hockey team in the locker room after their victory, where Cash Patel was making a fucking idiot himself, chugging beers and acting like he was 21 when he's old and spending taxpayer money. But let's not get into that imbecile. But anyways, Trump then tried to, said, Hold my beer to Cash Patel, and he invited them to the State of the Union and the White House. But let's listen to how he said it.

We'll do the White House the next day. We'll just have some fun. We have medals for you guys. We have to, I must tell you, we're going to have to bring the woman's If you do know that?

Absolutely.

I do believe I probably would be impeached, okay?

It's so great to have a really old man make a stupid old man joke, and that is fine. He is what he is. It was just gross to insult the women who had just won the gold medal. Instead, the guys laughed, and I get it. I get it. I get it. You're in a locker room, you just won. You're all excited, and you have the President calling you. But you don't have to laugh at his jerky joke. I think his time is over for talking about women like their battle axes or there's such a pain to be here. No, the ladies. It's tiresome in the extreme. I'm not someone who doesn't like a good joke. I put up with Scott all the time, but this is just not funny. It isn't funny to the women's team. Now, a day later, after Trump did invite the US women's hockey team, it turns out they simply can't make it. They don't want to hang with you. A spokesman for the team said, We are sincerely grateful for the invitation extended to our gold medal-winning US women's hockey team, and added that they would not be able to attend due to the timing and previously scheduled academic and professional commitments.

I love that. I'm going to just relate very quickly. When my son, Louis, was on a men's soccer cross team, there was an audio of something where it really insulted the girls in the class really badly. It was a dumb, stupid, sexually charged song they played. I don't remember it exactly, but they got a video of it, of course, because everything's videotaped. It was gross what they were doing. They were assaulting their classmates in a really sexist way. Louis wasn't singing the song. He wasn't in the video. He wasn't singing the song. But I remember when I saw it, I was so disappointed in him because he didn't say anything. I know he couldn't. He was in the locker room. We had a great talk at the time. I remember spending a lot of time talking talking to both my boys about their role in, like you say, protecting women, not just protecting, but don't laugh at stupid shit like that. You don't have to go along just to get along. It was really, it reminded me of that moment when Louis said to me at the time, I didn't do anything. I said, You didn't do anything.

That's exactly my problem with you at this moment. I get it. I get what it's like being a boy. I get the pressures of it. But honestly, US men's soccer hockey team, just be better. Let's just say. Let's say be better. That was what I would say to you. If I was your parent, I'd slap you back to last Sunday. Anyway, that's my... Go ahead. Congratulations, by the way, US men's hockey team and the women's hockey team.

I thought the highlight of the Winter Olympics was Megan Keller, who scored the overtime. I grew up going to hockey games. It was the only one of the few ways my father and I bonded. We used to go to LA Kings games and watch Marcel Dion and Whitey Whiting and, and so I knew something about hockey, and I used to go to Mapleleaves games with my father. The overtime goal from Megan Keller, hands down for me, was the ultimate demonstration of athleticism, grace under pressure. Keep in mind, these women are really doing it for the love of the sport. Their league does not pay a lot.

Can I point out, Alyssa Lou and the three other women from the US were all supportive of each other.

They weren't at each other's fucking- There's this level of camaraderie. Alyssa Lou, amazing. I do not fault the men for laughing. They're in a locker room. They're talking to the President. I know. I get it. They're talking to the President. Most of them are 23-year-olds from Wisconsin. I get it. Not that there's anything wrong. I don't fault them. I fault the President for not setting a good example for young men. That's just not... But the women... Did you see the final of the women's hockey?

Yeah, it was amazing.

The goal she pulled off was It's so extreme. I kept watching it over and I spent 20 minutes watching it 40 times. I know. It's amazing. Anyways, Megan Keller was- You're right.

They don't get to be star in Heated Rivalry, et cetera. It really is. They're in a star- Oh, my God.

It's The women's soccer team. Heated rivalry with women's hockey.

That's already happening.

You got one viewer.

I'm sorry. That's already happening, but we'll go into it in great detail. Go ahead. Yours win and fail.

Well, it's one thing, and that is... Okay, so We let our thoroughbreds US corporations run, and we have structural systemic laws that tell them, Okay, you can't pour mercury into the river. If an industry becomes so consolidated, it starts extracting unfair rents from labor or consumers, the government moves in. Other than that, one of the reasons for our economic growth is we err on a lack of regulation or government intervention. When the President starts weighing in and saying the most ridiculous shit about a board member, he called her racist. Oh, yeah, Susan Rice, famous racist. That's not even my fail, though. We've expected that weak and weird socialist/communist/autocratic behavior that hurts our economy. What I can't stand is that Democrats do not lack all creativity around how we're going to strike back. Let me just give you one idea because I love the idea of economic activism. That is, all right, a Beltway on-ramp into greater wealth is the following. You serve in Congress or in the cabinet, and you go on because you're an impressive person with strong connections and an understanding of the world. You on to serve on corporate boards and make some money.

I bet Susan Rice has made millions of dollars on the board of Netflix. And by the way, I think it's great. She worked her ass off. I don't mind. There should be a cooling off period going to work for lobbyists. But I have been on boards with the New York Times. We had Bill Knaard, the former head of the SEC, went on to be the American ambassador to the EU. I was on a board with Rick Snyder, who went on to be the governor of Michigan. I think it's great that they serve on boards. They're talented, thoughtful people. They deserve to make money. I have no problem with it. But if the President starts fucking with Democrats on boards, Leader Jeffrey's and Senator Schumer, why the fuck are you not fucking back? And this is the following. For example, Mike Pompeo, former head of the CIA and Secretary of State. He is on a board, and I did this in about 10 minutes of research. He is on a board called Vian, which is a single class share company. When I used to do activism, I had to spend 150,000 to 250,000 to file a 13D and nominate directors and get lawyers involved.

I have now written up the filings for nominating governors at this single class share company, and I did it in about seven minutes using AI. I'm going to buy one share in this company, and I'm going to start targeting Republicans on boards and not renominating them, and then maybe go after another board member. Anyone in Congress who's a Republican who decides they, too, would like to make some money on boards, well, why aren't Schumer and Jeffrey saying, We're going to be back in power, folks. If you want to go serve on boards, as Susan Rice did, we're going to start fucking with you.

Now look, Scott, the thing is, what he's doing is totally wrong, so you should do the wrong thing in order to meet him. That is a hard decision.

You fire a gun at me. I am pulling out my gun, and I am shooting you in the fucking face.

All right. I'm good.

This is about incentives. This notion that Democrats that were higher and mightier and that will restore the... Fuck that.

Fuck that.

You want to deny the Constitution and engage in depraved criminal behavior against us? Well, fine, folks. If you think we're going to restore, just go back to being the nice guys who are genteel and restore the norms, no, that is the wrong incentive. There needs to be a loud and clear message to the Republicans who are grabbing their ankles as America gets fucked here. Be clear. You want an autocracy? Fine. We'll show you an autocracy when we're back in charge. No, Scott. Sorry for the lecture.

Okay. All right. I think they're not going to be invited to the next Democratic getaway. There's other ways to fight back that are just as devastating to them that you don't have to do with They did. Someone called me from one of these companies and it's like, Oh, I don't think the Democrats are going to hurt us. I said, Oh, they're going to hurt you. You're just not the same way.

They're not afraid. They think we're going to go back to strongly worded letters.

No, they're not going to. I think there's going to be I do. I just don't think we have to do it the way Trump is doing, which is essentially acting like Putin. Anyway, just for people who don't know, Trump's favorite judge, speaking of fails, Eileen Cannon, just blocked the public release of Special Counsel Jack Smith's report on the classified documents case against Trump, trying her best to get into the Supreme Court, Eileen, or Aaleen, whatever your fucking name is, you suck, and you're going to be overturned on appeal. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. We don't want to hear from Judge Canon at all anymore, hopefully. Go to nymag. Com/pivot to submit a question for the show. Or call 8555. 1. Pivot. Elsewhere in the Cara and Scott universe. This week on On with Cara Swischer, I spoke with Chris Applehands and Maggie Kang, directors of the K-Pop Demon There's Maggie, who's also the creator. And Scott, you got a mention. Let's listen.

How do we get Scott to watch it?

Do we just tell him everyone's hot? That'll work, right?

Because everyone's hot.

So watch it, by the way. Do it. I just got him to watch Heated Rivalry. I know. It took a bit, but I finally got him. When I'm with him at South by Southwest, I'm going to go to his room and we're going to watch it. He and I will have to cuddle with him. But if it takes, that's what it takes. I'm going to do that. I promise I will get him to watch it, and I will give him an edible, and I'll put him right in front of it, and that's how it's going to go. Just so you know, Scott.

What's the show?

K-pop Demon Hunters. You have not watched it.

I have not. But I don't have young kids. Isn't it for little kids?

No, it's an adult movie. Just watch it. You're going to watch it with me. You and I are going to watch it, okay?

We're going to call. Yeah, that's definitely got involved. Some THC.

Edibles. They're sexy cartoons. You'll love it.

Aren't those folks billionaires now? No. It's not the most watched thing ever on Netflix.

It is, but I think they didn't get... Again, like he did Rivally, they got it for a song. But I think they did fine. I mean, they're amazing. It's an amazing podcast. I love K-Pop Deepenhunders. It's not for kids, actually. It's a very complex show. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening listening to Pivot, be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday.

Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Euneer Tata engineered this episode. Rich Shibly edited the video. Thanks also to Jibril Ros, Ms. Saverian dance, Shalanda Shah, Cros, Vox Media's executive producer of podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine, nymag. Com/pod. We'll be back later in next week for a breakdown of all things tech and business. Cara, have a great rest of the week.

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