Transcript of Kash Patel Sues, Trump's Psychedelics Push, and Netflix’s Podcast Bet New

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You're an influencer. We gotta take you to Coachella and just have you take pictures and not enjoy the music.

Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

And I'm Scott Galloway.

Hey Scott, I just flew in from San Francisco and boy are my arms tired. Ha ha ha ha.

Yeah, I've heard that joke before.

I see you—

I know. Why did you come back or what's going on?

Why did I come back? That's a very good question. 'Cause I love San Francisco. I spent the weekend with my beautiful son. I helped him on his job. He's campaigning for a city council guy.

I saw that. Those were cute pictures.

Yeah, we had a great time and we cooked and we went hiking.

Let me guess, hardcore Republican?

No, but I was there 'cause I was on Bill Maher and I went to Gwyneth Paltrow's house.

Oh yeah. To do a podcast. I saw you, I tuned in. I almost never watch live TV and I, tuned in live. I thought your interview was good, not great. I thought you were great on overtime.

Oh, well, thank you. Why was my interview good, not great? Thank you, sir.

I just felt like it never really got going. And I like, I wanted to hear more. I should have just started with, I thought you were great and I thought you were especially strong on overtime.

That's how I should have started. Thank you. That's okay. Don't worry about it. Anyway, it was good. It was actually, I had an enjoyable time. It was, Rahm Emanuel and Jake Sullivan, which was interesting.

Yeah, yeah. I love the producers. They're the total Friday Night Lights, like, parents everybody wants.

Yes, they're great. They're really wonderful. And everyone was great. It was really nice to be there. And Ari Emanuel made an appearance 'cause Rahm was there for a second. Yelled at me when I was in the makeup room and then ran. So, he's turning 65, by the way. Good job getting to Medicare, Ari.

That guy looks good. Ari Emanuel looks very good for 65.

He looks good. They all— the Emanuels are in good shape, I have to say. I was doing a bunch. I went on John Lovett. I did a lot of press for this CNN thing. Let me hear your gripe. Go ahead. Gripe away.

I just like members clubs and streaming platforms. I join everything. I— anything. I'm like, whatever, Paramount Plus, plus, plus, plus, plus until I unsubscribe. But I generally join everything. I could not for the life of me find where to watch your goddamn show.

Right. Which you're on.

And I went on CNN.com and typed in I typed in Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever. I got your trailer, but I couldn't find where to sign up to download the program. I'm like, okay folks, what's the point of producing this content if no one can find it? So I like Mark Thompson, I like the people at CNN, but as I always say in business and in relationships, get the easy stuff right. If somebody wants to watch the first search result, the first thing in AI, the first thing on your fucking website, when someone types in Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever, forever should be, "How to watch." I spent half an hour and I couldn't find the show, Kara.

KARA] They showed it several times on Saturday night. It was right— came in after Bill Maher also. They rebroadcast it on CNN, and then they showed it 4 times, and then they showed the first one on the network, and then it goes to the app. It just goes to the app until it goes to streaming, and then it'll go to streaming later. 30 days, I think.

But I have the app. And not only that, I'm not 140 fucking years old. I don't watch linear TV. Saying it's on 4 times on linear TV—

I know, I'm just telling you what they did. I'm not—

It's like saying your CPAP is working, you just can't find it. I mean, okay. Anyways, I'm sure I'm gonna hear from them and they're gonna tell me I'm the idiot here, which is probably true.

All right, I will speak to them right now and I'm gonna send you a link. I know they're trying to really encourage that business, so go digital. So I get it.

And people will pay. I think they do on balance, have the best, most balanced newsroom in the world, maybe with the exception of the Wall Street Journal, people would pay. I'd pay. CNN, call me, I'll pay. I'll sign up. Take my money.

He wants some consensual digital action is what he wants, especially 'cause he's in it. Anyway, I had a beautiful time with Louis Swisher and we had a really good time. And by the way, I think it helped 'cause people did recognize me when I was sitting at the table there and said, "How's Scott?" Everybody did. So Scott, you helped my son do his job too. He said—

Oh, good.

Next time, bring a celebrity every time you're doing canvassing. So I guess we are what passes for a celebrity in San Francisco.

Your son was making fun— Anything from Tears for Fears I post on Threads, and your son wrote, "How boomer." Okay, boomer. Everybody wants to rule the world. Finally, one of the greatest bands of the '80s is getting the recognition it deserves. I'd like to roll with Tears for Fears, Cash Patel, and Emily Ratajkowski, 'cause those guys would be too old, Cash will make me seem sexy, and boom, Emily and I will announce our love.

Okay. We were getting our feet massaged after doing the canvassing. Giving as a little gift to him and his girlfriend. And he saw that and he goes, "Oh my God, boomer." It was really funny. But he said, "In admiration." Then he said, "In admiration." Anyway, let's get up to Kash Patel. I mean, he just filed a $250 million defamation suit against The Atlantic over an article he called a, quote, "hit piece." It was not a hit piece. The Atlantic is calling the suit meritless. The story is based on interviews with more than two dozen current and former officials about Patel's time at the FBI, It alleges excessive drinking, frequent absences, and erratic freakouts, including over computer sign-in. There were reportedly multiple times over the past year where Patel's security detail had trouble waking him because he appeared to be intoxicated. One incident involved a request for breaching equipment, the kind a SWAT team used, after Patel was unreachable behind locked doors. I mean, this story was like, you know, anyone who saw him You know, his antics, his drunken antics at the Olympics, it was disturbing enough. And, you know, throwing, drinking, screaming. He was clearly drunk.

He always looks drunk when he's on Fox News. It looked like it to me. I'm not— he just looked crazy, actually. Who knows if he's just that way. So what do you think's happening here? What's going on?

And as to the lawsuit, look, I think The Atlantic, my sense is this is thoughtful reporting and his It seems like his drinking is sort of an open secret. It's not about alcoholism in my view, it's incompetence. I don't doubt that the alcohol hurts him, but generally speaking, this is an incompetent person who has lacked judgment, doesn't show up for work on time, panics. You know, he's so skittish. He thinks that he's not, that he's being fired. I don't mind you drinking during the weeknight if you work for me, but be at work the next morning. And if you're not drinking and you don't show up at work, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter why you aren't showing up for work. This guy doesn't appear to be showing up.

Right, right. This was alleging that drinking had a lot to do with it, as he drinks so much, he drinks to excess, that he doesn't— he's also— it creates a national security risk, which is, I think, why all these people are leaking, right? It's not because they dislike him, but he also is a huge national security risk. He's also abusing his privileges. Very Kristi Noem here, right? This is the version of Kristi Noem. And obviously, it's sort of a, who's gonna, Christy, who's gonna take 'em down, right?

Well, I like the idea, him and AgSeth are now referred to as the liquor cabinet.

I think that's a good one.

Yeah.

Yeah. There was a good one. They said, uh, defense secretary, uh, FBI head, and a lead prosecutor go into a bar. Oh wait, that happens every day. It was for Jeanine Pirro is the other one they were talking about.

Yeah.

This group is really kind of just like so not in control of themselves. Let me just say the la— the one thing that really was the most most disturbing in that entire story was that he then will try to do something to please Trump, like try to prosecute people who prosecuted January 6th people, or do election denial. He's going to try to serve up like a little, a little mouse to Trump in order to save his job. And the only thing that Trump hates is drinking, because his brother was an alcoholic and died. But it'll be interesting if Trump will not fire him because of this piece, if that makes sense.

Yeah, my first girlfriend was Mexican and an alcoholic. And she used to order drinks called— and I asked her what her favorite book was and she said Tequila Mockingbird.

Oh my God. Okay. Well, anyway, do you think Trump will fire him?

I think so. That's not very good, is it?

I think Trump's gonna fire him. He's gonna fire a couple of these people.

3 guys walk into a bar, an alcoholic, a priest, and a child molester. And that's just the first guy.

All right, all right. I need your thoughts on whether Trump's gonna fire him. All right, we're done with the drunk jokes.

Go ahead. So get this, according to, according to Kelsey, there's now a something like a 70 or 80% chance that Patel is fired by June 1st. And the other one that just blew my mind, which I would take the over-under on or whatever you call it, that there's about a 70% chance that Trump is impeached by January 1st. So these markets are saying these markets are predicting that the wheels are coming off the bus here, which, you know, I find really unlikely here.

What does Scott Galloway think? Not Kaushik.

Oh, Patel's out. But I've thought that for a while. I think he reflects poorly. I think Hagseth, the president likes because when Hagseth gets up on stage, he is so strident. He's very handsome. I think that Trump really values esthetics. He's indignant. He's back in their face. I think Trump really likes that. And he's very resolute. Trump doesn't like thoughtfulness. He likes someone who's resolute. And I think he kind of likes that sort of brazen, arrogant approach. I think Patel is all of the incompetence with none of the stature or bravado. I just think he looks stupid. And he's making the Trump administration look stupid. And also it feels like, and I mean, you know this better than me, but it feels like everyone at the FBI is dying to get on the phone with a reporter and shitpost Patel.

Yeah.

It just seems like the whole, I mean, there's been such an, I think the two biggest brand erosions over the last 12 months have been number one, the brand US, number two, the brand AI. If you think about what's happened to that brand in the last 12 months, it's gone from 70, 80% people being optimistic to like, Now it's 1 in 10 are optimistic. But the brand of the FBI, I would argue the G-Men, you know, the X-Files, these were people that put on suits but knew how to handle a firearm. We're very measured. We're all about serving in the agency of others. We're optimized for security, not for performance or not for attention. This was a great job with a ton of prestige. And I think Kash Patel has literally trashed this brand.

Yeah, he's bad.

He's turned it into a Joey Bagadona It's, you know, two-for-one Coyote Ugly, MMA meets— You know, it's like a bar fight minus the charm.

Yep. All right.

All right.

Well, he's out. I agree with you.

What are your thoughts?

I think he's gone. I think this was a beautiful piece of reporting, and I think they're gonna go through the cabinet with— Next is Lutnick and his corruption, right? That's gonna— And his, like, thirsty attention-seeking. Anyway, we'll see. I think there's— It's a moment now, especially after Swalwell. It's a moment for all of them.

Let me ask you this. How does— How does the head of the FBI have their email hacked by an Iranian group?

Right.

How does that happen?

He's drunk.

How does that happen?

Because he's drunk. Because he's drinking too much. Because he's an idiot. But idiot and drunk. He's stupid. You remember the line from Animal House? How can you— well, though that was done by Dean Wormer, but going through life stupid and drunk is not— is no way to live, or something like that. Anyway, that's what he's doing.

When someone asks me if I ever drink in the morning, I'm like, no, because I don't wake up till noon. Oh my God.

Okay, enough with the drinking jokes. I'm not I'm on a roll today, Kara.

I'm not on a roll.

Iran is threatening to retaliate after the US military seized an Iranian-flagged cargo ship trying to bypass the blockade in the Strait of Hormuz. Iran is calling it an act of piracy. Meanwhile, JD Vance, Steve Whitkopf, and Jared Kushner are headed back to Pakistan for more peace talks, though it's unclear if Iran will even show up. First, JD wasn't going, then he was going, and Trump was saying all manner of things. Trump, of course, is once again threatening to take out Iran's power plants and bridges, which I know it feels like Groundhog Day, But he's doing it again. The ceasefire is due to end this week. I'll also note Energy Secretary Chris Wright thinks gas prices might stay above $3 until 2027, though Trump is saying that's totally wrong. California was $6. It was crazy. It was $6 or in the mid-$6s, which is because they have more taxes there, obviously. But any thoughts what's happening here? Because it seems like, again, still, they still haven't gotten their act together, this gang. They can't shoot straight.

There's so many things that are bubbling up in terms of incompetence in institutions and a general approach to government that took immense resources that Americans have taken for granted. And one of those things is our incredible diplomatic corps. We gutted the diplomats, we gutted the anti-terrorist group. So when you have these summits or peace talks, 95 to 98% of the work is done before the person lands on the ground. And that's the problem is 0% has been done here. He might as well, this is the most, it is so easy to predict nothing is going to come out of this. And I was, you know, I've been saying that masculinity, a decent proxy for masculinity is are you optimizing for attention versus service? If so, that's the opposite of masculinity. That defines this ridiculous trip to Pakistan. There's been no diplomatic work done. He's going to land, he's going to make an indignant speech. He's going to look for a TikTok moment that he attempts to make himself look presidential. He'll make further irresponsible, incendiary, unnecessary comments. He'll leave and nothing will have happened.

Right.

And, you know, the, the only other, what I've been thinking a lot about lately is kind of the winners and losers here. Initially, China is a loser because of the, the security threat around not having the free flow of energy. They are such a big winner long-term because I was thinking about how does the world structurally change on the demand side. You got to think that in addition to the economic costs of the Straits of Hormuz being sequestered or blocked. Every nation in the world must be thinking, you know, we don't want to be dependent upon fucking straits that can be controlled by the IRGC or by Trump. So we're going to move to renewables.

By the way, there's— can I just interject? There's a couple— there's a really good online thing that was about— there's not just the Straits of Hormuz. There's an area near China that 40% of the shipping goes through. There's a number of places around the world where this happens.

The Strait of Malacca or Singapore, the Suez Canal.

Right, exactly.

Freedom of navigation, again, see above, things we've taken for granted. Freedom of navigation was something that had been embraced by the entire world that said, "Everyone's gonna pay more, everyone's gonna have insecure energy policy if we don't enforce freedom of navigation around the world." But you gotta think that every nation is thinking not only economically, but from a defense standpoint, we need to have energy security. What is, all roads in energy security lead to one place. Renewables. And let's talk about renewables. The advanced manufacturing and long-term thinking of China. Get this. What is the global share that China controls of windmill production? Any guesses?

No, probably a lot.

A lot, correct. 60%. The percentage of EVs sold globally?

China.

70%. China. The percentage of solar panels produced in the world? 80% in China. So while we're sending Diplomatic missions and Canada's announcing they're divorcing from us 'cause we're an absentee irresponsible player in the marriage. China's using advanced manufacturing to say, "Okay, long-term." They are. "Everyone's gonna start investing in renewables and we're gonna be the place they come to buy it all." And they're not only offering the manufacturing and the products, they're offering safe distribution, they're offering financing for these things and they're saying, "You can count on us." So if you don't wanna be subject to the IRGC, or President Trump's whims that day, enter into an economic relationship with China.

Yeah, I agree. I agree. Anyway, it's a real— it's just, this is not good from a political point of view, from a world point of view. And a lot of— there's a lot of very high-level people predicting a real collapse of lots of countries in terms of because of the slowdowns and the problems that they're just on the edge. I mean, the UAE was asking for some money. This is— they have to solve this yesterday. They shouldn't have done it in the first place. But now they have to solve it yesterday because there's a lot of other— all these countries are interconnected, whether you like it or not, MAGA folks. This is how it works. And you're gonna, you're gonna see collapses all around. If the UAE is asking for— what did they want? They needed money, is really because of the situation. All these luxury brands throughout the Mideast, and that's just small, small ball. It's like all these countries are dependent on this. And so he is reordering the world for sure, but not in the way that favors the United States. And of course there's funding this team of Whitcoff, Steve Whitcoff.

Honestly, this is not our best and brightest with Jared Kushner, Steve Whitcoff, and JD Vance.

Well, just a couple things. If you want to know, if you want to understand what's going to happen in a negotiation with Whitcoff, just ask how is he going to get his kids rich. Like, what— that's essentially what is driving these negotiations. But you brought up something, you brought up something really important, and that is the UAE. And something that really shocked me, I was looking at analysis of projectiles that have come out of Iran. Do you realize that Iran has shot more projectiles at the UAE than Israel. And, you know, the UAE really is a model of what it means to not be the IRGC. It's, they have built an unbelievable modern economy. They respect alliances. They in many ways are trying to be more progressive around civil rights. They have made real progress around women's rights. They are everything that the IRGC is not. And it's interesting that of all the nations, the IRGC has decided to go after the UAE most aggressively. That really surprised me. More projectiles into the UAE than Israel.

But they're asking, they said they're going to be forced to use Chinese money or other currencies if they don't get a financial lifeline. This is just, and that's just one country. There's so many that are just going to be affected. And then let me just say, lots and lots of people live day to day in this country and cannot afford these prices. These gas prices. And so with Chris Wright just haphazardly saying, oh, stay above 3, and it's even above 3, it's above 4 in DC, it's above— like, give me a fucking break. It was 6 in— in— this is just these cavalier fuckers. And then that, that smiling idiot Kevin Hassett gets on and acts like it's no big deal. There's something really broken about these people that just doesn't understand the implications of anything they do. Anyway, uh, we have to go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about Joe Rogan's influence on executive orders. Support for this show comes from Framer. Running a business is pretty tough, especially if you're a perfectionist and any and every little mistake on your website just drives you insane. Framer is your shortcut to fixing those problems.

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The order directs the FDA to do an expedite review of the breakthrough therapy and encourage data sharing between the Health and Veterans Affairs Department. Um, you know, honestly, this— look, Rogan's been turning on Trump, and this was a gimme to Joe Rogan. I, I, as you know, I talk about use of psychedelics in this series. It's very promising, but certainly shouldn't be expedited because some, some podcaster who has very not the best information— because they need to do the safety checks if these things are going to be good for people, And but if you— I mean, what would you text Trump for? What would you like if you could? But this is how it's done in this country. He texts him, he wants him back. It's the most thirsty and thirsty way to get Rogan's approval. And Rogan is dumb enough to take it and then shift on these things that he cared about, allegedly war and the Epstein thing. So the whole thing is just demented. I thought this was the most demented thing given how important this psychedelic research should be taken throughout this country. Your thoughts?

Well, ibogaine is— there's real potential here. A Stanford study found a single ibogaine dose reduced veterans' disability ratings from 30.2 to 5.1, with effects sustained at least a month out. Almost 9 in 10 participants experienced a reduction in PTSD symptoms, 9 in 10 decrease in depression, 8 in 10 reduce in anxiety. So this has real potential. This is a great move, but here's the problem. This isn't how you do things.

They've been running this for a year. They could have done this a year ago, but go ahead.

Well, okay. So I'm a big believer in prison reform. I think we're the most incarcerated nation in the world. And I think that a hugely accretive move would be early prison release and a review of people who are currently incarcerated. And when the Trump administration decides that it would be great to have the Kardashian on board and she, She takes this on as an issue. They then get a pardon. He does these things, but he does them for political reasons, and they're not systemic in nature. And when it comes to the— when it comes to taking something from a Class 2 or a Class 1 drug, I want someone who has domain expertise. I want double-blind tests. I think, again, another thing we have taken for granted here is the good people at the CDC, our FDA, double-blind studies, doctors with actual credentials. I mean, they do a really good job. It's been a huge benefit to us economically. The drugs you take are, you know, they do mistakes, but you can feel fairly certain that if you take something that's FDA approved, it's approved for a good reason. So—

It's also too slow. It's absolutely too slow on these therapies. But they're still early. And the fact that this very not smart podcaster, who's very lovely in some ways and nutty in some ways, but doesn't operate in a factual environment all the time, is getting to get this because he was mean to Trump and was turning on him. And then for the next couple of months, he'll be nice to Trump, right? The whole thing is just grotesque. In the— this is not how we need to—

this isn't how you run health policy.

This is not health policy. That's correct. It's not legal policy. It's purely political. And for Rogan to get used like this on an important issue— maybe if it's important to him, he should demand that Trump, not, not just because he can go to the Oval Office and hug Trump, but it's just, just— oh God, it could hurt veterans if it's not done correctly. The whole— oh yeah, yeah, just— it's, by the way, it's also going to take forever.

So let's do this, let's play the game, let's be increasingly mean and grow our platform 10x. And then what is the one thing you want from Trump? What is the one policy you would want from Trump?

$25 minimum wage. Oh, I love Universal healthcare. I love that. Childcare, universal childcare, all those things. Any of those.

Check, check, check.

Mm-hmm. Love it.

What about you?

Love it. Besides, this sounds like a missile.

I would want mandatory national service.

Oh, I like that.

Distribution of GLP-1 to any household with less than $50,000 in household income.

With good medical stuff attached to it.

Nutrition.

That's right.

That's right. And incremental, like you said, single-payer health coverage. And oh gosh, I could, I could, I mean, I could go on and lower the estate tax exemption to $1 million. There's going to be $72 trillion in wealth passed on. We're not a dynastic population. We're a meritocratic population and we need to tax inherited wealth. Anyways, I got about another 15.

Okay, well, there we go. We're done. We don't have his— I know, actually, I can probably get Trump's cell phone.

Let's get on it. Let's be a pain in his side. Why don't we do an experiment?

Say, this is Scott Galloway, I would like you to do an executive order on young men, or whatever the fuck you want. I'm gonna get his cell phone, you're gonna text him, okay? You're doing it.

I think it's getting the wiring information of someone in his family and sending a few million dollars. I'm serious. I think there's a direct pipeline. I've I've heard from credible resources around specific things around pardons and trying to get funding for certain things, that there's an entire infrastructure, consultants who launder the money, get it to the Trump administration, and you get shit passed. This is— And to be clear, what they would say is, "This has always been going on. We're just more— We're less— We're more transparent about it." No, not like this.

I'm gonna get his number. You're gonna text him. Okay? That's what we're doing this week.

Well, I was invited to the UFC fight at the White House, but— You need to go.

You need to go. You need to say yes.

I can't go. I just can't do that.

You need to sidle up to him and, like, pat him.

I don't like watching young men beat each other up at presidential debates.

I don't look at that part. Just go pet Trump. That's what you need to do. And get universal healthcare for everybody. You need to do it. You need to go in there. They're not inviting me. Even though, did you hear about this study? The influencers?

Say more.

Oh, it's really interesting. So there's a poll that Ipsos did about influencers, essentially. And, um, I am the most purple. First of all, I'm in the top influencers, which is weird. I'm up there with Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson and all manner of people. But I'm the most purple.

You're the most centrist?

Yes.

Purple means centrist?

Well, I don't think the word is— I think it's independent. Like, I don't know, because they don't all agree, right? But in terms of impact, I'm shocked that I was even in these lists. But independents love Paris Swisher. It's weird. It's so weird. But it's good.

That's very exciting.

Which means that I should be at the UFC fight because I'd actually enjoy it. But you need to go.

You're an influencer. We got to take you to Coachella and just have you take pictures, not enjoy the music.

I'm surprised you didn't go to Coachella. But listen, this is what you have to do. You have to take one for the team or you're going to— you also have to text Trump because he's not taking my texts, even though I am the person who's the most— who represents the independents, apparently, which is ridiculous because I'm really liberal. Yeah, but I'm really liberal, which is kind of funny. Um, all right, the NSA is using Anthropic's, uh, mythos even after the Department of Defense called the company a supply chain risk. Um, Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei met with the White House officials on Friday to work towards a compromise to bring the company's technology back to government use. Both sides described the meeting as productive. However, when President Trump was asked about Amodei's visit, he said he had no idea about the meeting. He was meeting with Suzy Wiles. If a compromise is reached, would likely exclude the Pentagon because Hegseth is a moron, and so was Emil Michael, who works for him. So it's, again, it's like everyone I have talked to in the other departments think the Hegseth thing is insane and that they want to use it 'cause it's a better model.

So the NSA wants to use it and everything else. And it's just, it's kind of ridiculous that Modi has to go hat in hand to deal with these children. And by the way, over at OpenAI, more kind of problems. The company lost 3 executives on Friday, the leader of the defunct Sora, the VP of OpenAI, Science who used to work for Twitter, Kevin Weil, and the company's CTO for B2B applications. So they're losing— there's a lot of— it's more dramatic than Google back in the day or Twitter. It just, it's really quite a dramatic little company. So any thoughts on Anthropic or OpenAI?

Well, you know, history or the world hates a vacuum. And one of the biggest vacuums or voids right now that's creating chaos is the vacuum around regulation and guardrails around AI. And when Dario Amodei, who is supposed to be head of a private company charged with just using every tool in his toolkit possible to create leverage and margin for shareholders, gets so worried about something that he pulls it back and I'm not, you know, and says he's only gonna give it to JP Morgan and Apple, you know, the good guys. And you'd like to think he's sincere about it and he's generally concerned, But he shouldn't be making those calls. If we're trusting or hoping that the US and existential threats are gonna be dependent upon the kindness and wisdom of CEOs, we are fucked because these people have so many incentives and pressure to just deliver against shareholder value.

I agree. It's a low bar. I was with some people and they're like, "Amody's good." I'm like, "It's a low fucking bar." And I still don't want him to decide.

But in one of millions of text chains that got copied on between you and Rahm, I was gonna suggest to Rahm and any other Democratic presidential candidate candidate. I was actually going to, for some reason, I think Jon Ossoff is, and you wrote about this, is giving off real presidential energy right now. But I think the opportunity among a Democratic candidate right now, quite frankly, is to have a very thoughtful, get some academics together and have a very thoughtful 10-page or less summarized in a 1 or 2-page cover summary is regulation for AI. Do you realize no one's even proposing what it would mean? What does it look like? How do you regulate it? Is it about security? Is it about privacy? Is it about how do you thread the needle between regulation and also letting our thoroughbreds run such that China does not get out ahead of us, which is a legitimate concern? Who running for president, i.e., everyone, has put out anything thoughtful that has said, I mean, Senator Warner has put out something with Senator Hawley about retraining and trying to support job destruction, but no one has really put out a thoughtful 3, 5, 12-page plan a 12-point plan on this is what we should implement immediately and by executive order that lets the economic growth run mostly.

It'll cost some economic growth, but gives people some level of certainty that the government has some feel around the risks here and outlines them. But there's nothing right now. It's just the wild west. And that vacuum is being filled by a bunch of arguments, virtue signaling, false signals, comms releases, press releases. So the vacuum is being filled by chaos around something that people aren't sure, is it a big threat? Is it not? And it really hurts the industry because see above, it's gone from 9 in 10 people being optimistic about this to 1 in 10.

Yeah, they've really fucked it up. And it's not the fault of, like, me complaining. I got that from one of them. It's like, it's because you're so negative. I'm like, get the fuck out of here. Like, it's not our fault. I said that. That's what I actually said.

I'm an influencer.

I'm a big— The indies agree with you. You're right. It's worked, by the way. Anyway, it's just, they have done it to themselves. They've done it to themselves because they're so— And you know what drove me crazy? Then you get— This isn't an AI company, but it's all stuck in there. Palantir posting its manifesto on X over the weekend, which one outlet— It was points from Alex Karpf, the CEO's book, The Technological Republic. One outlet likened it to the ramblings of a comic book villain. And the points include: post-war neutering of Germany and Japan must be undone. I mean, it's already been undone, you dumbass. We should applaud those who attempt to build where the market failed to act. And we must resist shallow temptation of vacant and hollow pluralism. The whole thing is just so— I need them to shut up. I need all the AI people to shut up, even the good ones, and just like, like, put in good things in place, because they literally have— they keep shooting themselves in the foot about technology that's possibly dangerous, possibly amazing, and everybody hates it, right? Everyone who's normal hates it, not them.

And then they blame us for that.

Yeah, I don't get it. I know I, I consider myself an influencer, but I suffer from paranoia. I believe that nobody is following me.

Can I ask you, if you went in there to them, they said, Scott Galloway, we need, we need you to fix this, what would be your first 3 moves? Mr. Brand, we're having you in, we're paying you a badillion dollars because they have But yeah, the AI companies are like, look, people fucking hate us.

Yeah, I'd wanna assemble a list of technologists, ethicists, and economic advisors. And I would demand a 30-day period where no model, no updated model is ever released without thorough review that A/B tests the shit out of this thing in terms of existential risks. And it has to, if it takes fucking a decade to get a drug through the FDA.

Right, exactly.

Why wouldn't we mandate that the government gets to play any new model for 30 days. And then says, we have found that this could absolutely hack the NSA or even our nuclear launch codes.

Right, yeah.

So you need to tweak the following things. And we're gonna assemble a blue ribbon panel. Anyone on this panel will be paid a lot of money, have tremendous prestige. And by the way, for 3 years, there's a sunshine period and you cannot go on the board of any of these companies 'cause we don't want you trading off speaking engagements and stock options for security. But at a minimum, we should have a 30-day screening blue ribbon panel that includes Europeans, that includes G6 nations.

I love this.

That includes stock market analysts and say, okay, there has to be a balance between safety and economic growth. Instead, it's just like, put it out there and see what happens.

I know. From a marketing, if you were doing an ad, what would it be? We know we suck or what? What's the message?

For?

For the AI companies.

Oh, but here's the bottom line, Kara, is that our, are— the markets love a winner. The, the worst thing that's happening to Sam Altman right now is he's proving himself to be a, uh, not a great CEO and he's let Anthropic literally leapfrog him. The markets are amoral. Anthropic's gonna get out at a trillion-dollar-plus valuation because it is executing like no one's business. And Cowork is on fire. They are doing such a great job. I think Dario is managing his brand fairly well. I I think if I were Dario, and I think he's gonna do this given that he, God, I can't imagine has much on his own plate, I would almost, I don't wanna say circumvent the government, but I would be putting together an industry consortium across all of them and saying, "These are our recommendations." Yeah.

Even critics of them.

And trying to be as thoughtful. I would also offer a bunch of LLMs for free to researchers and academics and say, "Have at it. We think this could cure cancer. Have at it." Yeah.

I have to say, I do like, I think he's messaging well, but he never comes up with solutions. Like, he just tells us it's all falling apart. So, you know, David Sachs went after him this week for being too negative, and I don't think he is. I just think while he's offering these scary scenarios, he needs to say, okay, here's what we can do. Like, he doesn't do that enough. That's what I would say about him.

But why wouldn't they, why wouldn't they court, I mean, they have a lot of money. Why wouldn't they take, I don't know, a billion dollars and start a center at Berkeley and said, this center is going to be focused on incurable diseases and we're going to give them all the models for free. We're going to give them compute inference. And a lot of people would say, no, it's the profit motive. But just from a, I don't want to sound a perception standpoint, but why wouldn't you say we're starting a center for diplomatic prevention of conflict using AI? They could just do so many interesting things that show they're concerned about the—

They're doing little bits of that, but yeah, their brand is really bad. And listen, Dara is gonna be dragged down with the rest of them if they don't do something about it.

Every journey is the same from Anakin Skywalker to Darth Vader. We think they're the ones that are gonna save us, that they should be president. And then we find out like the rest of them, their job is to do and say whatever will get their share price up.

Feet of clay. Feet of clay.

There you go. It's the villain's journey. They always end up a Bond villain. I like Dario. I don't know him personally, but I think he's made a series of really good moves. He's clearly an outstanding CEO. But here's an easy prediction. In 24 months, we'll hate him too because we will fall into the trap of believing that these people are responsible for our wellbeing. They're not. They're responsible for shareholder value, and that comes at a cost. And when no one's home, see above that void, who is proposing anything resembling AI regulation right now?

Well, they say it and then And they— it's a one-off.

What would you do? What would you want to see?

I would put to— I think that's— I actually hadn't thought about it, but I would— not ads saying how good we are. I would have an— Well, you know, I had a back and forth with Dario's people. I'm going to see him this week. But one of the things I said is, "You're doing all these soft interviews. Do some fucking hard ones." Like, and I was, of course, pitching for me, but, you know, like, get out there and do some, like, do a lot. And it doesn't have to just be him. It has to be a lot of people. Like, instead we're doing— You know, Sam Altman's sort of had a series of bad interviews, but it's gotta be a broader discussion among a lot more people, right? And demand that your critics are right in front of you and don't wilt when a critic says something. Instead of like, they just don't want bad news. And it doesn't matter. People hate them. They really hate them. And so look at the polls, look at young people. I mean, it's just the brand destruction is gonna take them all down. And there's so many promising things with AI.

I mean, look what happened to Reese Witherspoon this week. I got slammed because I said, what was she saying? That was because they thought she was being paid by ChatGPT or Charles Porch or whatever it happened to be. But did you see all that? Like, because she was saying women need to—

I didn't understand why she got so much hate for that, because they thought it was an ad.

I think that they— and maybe it was. I don't really care. What she was saying was accurate. It doesn't— I mean, they said she's bought and paid for, and she must be getting money because she has Blackstone money through the whatever. Honestly, it was so innocuous. And people, because she does books, and so all the people, it just was, it was innocuous what she said. Seriously innocuous. And I got slammed for, I wasn't really defending her. I'm like, what is she saying that's so weird? Even again, even if she was paid, I don't think it was, the message was a bad one. But I guess, and then it was like, well, I'm not going to use AI, so there. And I'm like, well, don't then. What do you want? But if you, if you will care about where it's going, you need, it's like in the early internet, there were all these people who who said, "I'm not using the web." I'm like, knock yourself out, but it's happening, my friends. Don't turn on that flash, that electric light. I don't care. It's just, anyway, it's a bad, there's a lot of rage. There's, the rage at her was insane, I thought.

Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, why Netflix stock plummeted after its latest earnings. I'm eager to hear what you have to say, Scott. Support for the show comes from DeleteMe. DeleteMe makes it easy, quick, and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. You don't have to be a public figure to be at risk of having your personal information stolen by bad actors. The terrifying reality is that we're all susceptible, and the impact of identity theft can be devastating. DeleteMe can help you protect your personal protect your privacy or the privacy of your business from doxxing attacks before sensitive information can be exploited. I have used DeleteMe for a while. I think it's really important to be aware of what's out there about you. It's really surprising, even someone like me who spends a lot of time protecting their privacy, how much information is out there, how much of it is bad, and how much is being compiled together. You really have to fight hard to keep your privacy, and DeleteMe is an excellent tool. Last year, the New York Times Wirecutter named DeleteMe their top pick for data removal services.

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It's so soft, it's breathable, it's just wonderful. And especially as we go into summer, it's really nice to have a breathable yet warm yet not too warm blanket. Upgrade your sleep with Boll Branch. Get 15% off off your first order plus free shipping at bollandbranch.com/pivot with code PIVOT. That's Bolland Branch, B-O-L-L-A-N-D-B-R-A-N-C-H.com/pivot, code PIVOT to unlock 15% off. It's completely worth it. Exclusions apply. I'm Midge Purce, 2-time individual champion, championship MVP, and forward for the US Women's National Team. Before I went pro, I graduated from Harvard with a degree in psychology. Psychology, which comes in handy more than you think. Any athlete pursuing greatness knows there's a certain mentality you have to have. What people don't know is what that costs. In my podcast, Confessions of an Elite Athlete, I sit down with the best athletes in the world and explore the psychology, mindset, and unseen battles on the path to greatness. So take a seat and learn from the confessions of an elite athlete on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Scott, we're back with more news. Netflix is out with its first earnings report since walking away from the Warner Brothers deal back in February.

The company beat expectations on revenue and earnings, driven by membership growth, ad sales, and higher subscription prices, plus that $2.8 billion breakup fee Thanks, Ellison. Thanks, Paramount. But the Q2 forecast was below analyst expectations. It sent shares down 10%. The earnings also came with a few announcements, a deeper push into AI and the launch of a TikTok-like vertical video feed within the app. They're trying to do a lot more. AI makes total sense in that regard. And notably, Netflix co-founder and chairman of the board Reed Hastings is leaving the company when his term expires in June. He wants to do a lot of other things. Talk first about the earnings, 'cause we're gonna get into the Netflix's podcast cast plans in just a second. I can go over what they're doing, but why don't you talk about the earnings themselves? And by the way, can I just take a moment? I met Reed Hastings right at the beginning of this company, and I have known him for a long time. I gotta say, an amazing entrepreneur. What he did and shifted deserves enormous credit. And he was the real engine. And Ted is doing a great job.

So is Bella Bajaria. So are the new people there. But Reed Hastings is a one— is a generational entrepreneur. And congratulations on your 10th year. 10-year. So go ahead.

Yeah, agreed. Uh, look, the earnings were, uh, fantastic. Their revenue was up 16% year over year, beating expectations. Their earnings, uh, was nearly double what analysts expected. There was a bit of a sugar high though because of the $3 billion termination fee from the collapsed Warner Brothers deal. What shocked me was the ad tier now drives over 60% of new signups in ad-supported markets.

Interesting.

And they're on track to hit $3 billion in ad revenue this year. So now they're becoming a big media player, ad-supported media player with a business that barely even existed 2 years ago. And the full-year guidance held at about $51 to $52 billion, but Q2 guidance of 13% growth came in below what the bulls wanted to see. So I think that, I guess I looked at these earnings, I mean, this is the weird and the beautiful thing about the market. If I'd seen these earnings before the market's reaction, I would've guessed the market would be flat to up. Up. So I don't know if they're taking Reed's departure as a signal this is no longer a growth company or that just some air was coming out of the stock. I don't get it. I don't, you know, there was some speculation that Reed was leaving because of the botched Warner Brothers deal. I think that's bullshit. I think like you said, he just wants to do different things.

He is awesome.

The stock was up 18% year to date heading into the print. Now it's just up 7%, but that's not bad. The, I did meet with Ted Sarandos 2 years ago and I told him I thought they should launch a TikTok competitor because the long tail of Netflix content doesn't get viewed very much. And I thought, have an open source opportunity for artists and creators to slice it up and it would be incredible marketing. And I think they could have a viable competitor to TikTok. And at that point he said, we use TikTok as a marketing.

I would trust them with, I'd like, I like their stuff. So I would trust them.

It looks like they're getting into the business.

Mm-hmm. Yes.

They're launching a TikTok-style vertical video feed this month. And YouTube has 13% of all US TV viewing versus Netflix at 9%. But YouTube Shorts has grown 186% in 15 months with Shorts on connected TV accounting for part of their growth. And then Meta recently announced that Reels for TV They're doing Reels for TV where users can watch short-form content on television. And Reels already has a $50 billion annual run rate in ad revenue. That's more revenue than WBD and NBCUniversal combined. And basically everyone now, 95% of consumers now watch some form of short-form video.

Kara Swisher.

And since pre-pandemic, time spent—

Don't you?

Time spent watching, oh, I hate to admit it. Most of, people ask me what my media sources were and I used to say the FT and The Economist to sound smart. The bottom line is I'm getting most of my content from short-form video right now.

Me too.

And time spent watching video content on social media has more than doubled since the pandemic. And Meta's revenues have nearly tripled and TikTok's have grown tenfold. So I think that what, what Netflix has is they have proprietary content. So proprietary content that's not user-generated, but user-edited. What could you do? There's been some amazing Netflix content that never bubbles up and never gets seen. Put it out and say, "Guys, have at it. Slice it into 2-minute things. Create new stories. Add in different effects. Add in different humor, different subtitles. Have at it." What I pitched Ted, I'm like, "Start something called NetVibes and basically say it's a TikTok competitor with all the proprietary content of the long-tail stuff." I love that stuff. The 90% that gets 2% of your viewership time.

Why did you just give away that great name? That was really good. You're talented. That was good. You said two very smart things today.

It's 'cause I was under the influence. Anyways, but Ted just sort of rolled his eyes and said, "Why would we do that when TikTok is such a great marketing engine for us right now?" But it looks like they're saying, "Okay, we no longer, we need a growth story." I think this is a great idea. I think they're doing it. And with the case of Netflix, the second mouse may get the cheese here. I think it's a great idea for them.

Oh, interesting. All right, so I'm gonna add, let me just tell you, the second thing is they're going they're all in on podcasts, which is interesting. And I have a lot of information about this 'cause I immediately started looking into it. Netflix has announced 5 more shows coming to its platforms. These are exclusive shows, including a new weekly interview show with Brian Williams. Hulu has also announced 4 more podcasts, including Handsome and 3 others based on TV shows. Hulu's, um, is not as strict, um, as Netflix. Netflix requires the shows to forego YouTube entirely, and Hulu does not, it looks like. Um, so this is really interesting. So I asked what the deals were, and someone said deals The deal structure looks like this. Episodic fee, low end of $25K an episode, average range $50K to $75K an episode, higher for celeb talent. Production budget on top. 6 to 12-month initial terms with 26 to 52 episodes depending on term length, ownership, Netflix, but sometimes they are given reversion rights. IP maybe, if they're making them. I wasn't tremendously impressed with the choices they made. I like Brian Williams, but it seems like they should really go for a much more younger demo, I guess, or more online demo, influencer demo.

But that was just me. What are your thoughts here? What do you think? That's a lot of money. 50, you know, if you got $50,000 an episode, that's a buttload of money. $2.5 million a year.

Well, we've been talking our own book, but it doesn't mean I don't believe it. Believe it, every political cycle there's a technology. Obama weaponized search. Trump, Facebook. I would say the second one was about social. A lot of people would say this is now, these midterms are gonna be AI midterms with a ton of misinformation. But I think in general, this election or the last election was really the podcast election. And do you remember that graph that showed that newspapers were getting 30% of all ad revenue, but they only had 8% readership and the internet was getting 10% of revenue but had 50% of all time? Those two tend to calibrate. And the fastest-growing ad-supported medium in the nation is not Meta or Alphabet, it's podcasting.

Mm-hmm. Which is videocasting, really. But go ahead.

It's television with a lower cost of means of production. Mm-hmm. It's 80% of TV.

And a closer relationship with fans that you have. You can't leave that out. It's not just 'cause it's cheap.

And it's not starched. It's not a handsome guy saying, "Save content," for 22 minutes and then showing a video about a butterfly garden. It's just— It's people who are willing, and some people like the conspiracy shit, and some people want people calling Hagseth a drunk. And sometimes people are just so fucking talented that they bubble up past the means of production that have sequestered some of this talent. Anyways, podcasting, you know, the Golden Globes now has it as a category. We're up, Pivot is up 25 or 30% this year. Property media is up 46% this year. Podcasts are growing like crazy. And what's, what's even more interesting is the, the chaser effects are the following. The average age of a Fox viewer is 69, CNN 67, CNBC 64. The average podcast listener is 34. And when you're 34, it means you're, you're buying houses, cars, getting kids, which are very expensive, and dogs. So this is quote unquote the core demographic. So in addition, as evidenced by the fact that the easiest guest for Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway to get on their show is someone running for president.

Yeah, they're calling me all the time.

Anyone who's thinking quote unquote not gonna make the decision in a year or two year with their family, yeah, they're calling us and they wanna come on because they're running for president.

I have so many messages right now.

What's interesting is that, you know, I don't know if you found this, but on Prop 8, they don't perform that well. I find that really interesting. A more interesting—

Some of them do. Buttigieg did great, I'll tell you that.

He's exceptional. He's exceptional.

Mnuchin did really well. That's not true. It's not true. Some of them do well. I'm gonna pay attention to what does well.

I find on average politicians don't score nearly as well as some of the other guests we have. But anyways, in terms of downloads or viewership, membership. But my point is the new people actually listen to the ads. The other innovation that no traditional media company wanted to do 'cause they decided their talent was too precious is host readovers. That gets, if you do a, if you just do an insert ad on YouTube or just an insert ad, you get between $3 and $10 CPMs. You reading over an ad, you talking about your Chevy Bolt and how much you like it, which you really do. That gets a CPM of $45 or $50. Chevy, The media company at General Motors is like, they're allocating more and more money. And now these things finally have the scale. So Netflix is, could be the new, Netflix is late on short-form video. They're late on podcasts. But when you have direct relationship with 80% of households, you can play catch-up pretty fast.

One of the things that drives me crazy with the media reporters when they were talking about the Vox thing, And I was like, "You all don't get where the money is now, where the voices are, where the—" Like, it just drives me crazy because they're living in a different world. Like, when I— not all of them, by the way, but when I— I've been doing a lot of press for this CNN thing, and I'm like, they're like, "Oh, is Vox trying to, you know, just save itself?" I'm like, "No, it has valuable— a thing that's valuable, you idiots." And so, you know, and the same thing with these deals. They were sort of poo-pooing them. I'm like, "You don't understand what's happening here." And I can't say it enough. Just sitting at a table on a street in San Francisco with my son, the kind of people that stopped, people that stop me on the street now, it's really astonishing. Like nothing I've ever done. And it's— And most of the people, Scott, tell me, "Thank you for doing what you and Scott are doing," or, "Thank you for doing that interview." They thank you for your content.

That never happened to me before in my life. So, I don't know how you feel about that, but—

00:59:50

The most rewarding thing The most rewarding thing about it, I mean, look, the money's great, but the most rewarding thing about it is that when people come up to you, they start speaking to you as if they're your friend. And it's really nice. People feel a parasocial, they have a parasocial relationship with you and they feel good about you. I think it's because you're physically in their ears oftentimes, so it creates intimacy. And also you're talking to them as they're doing something quite personal. They're walking the dog, they're doing the dishes, because it's their morning routine. But I think the most rewarding thing about being a podcaster, like if you get to a certain point, it's a little bit like the NBA. The analogy I use is that when I rode crew at UCLA, there's been 2,000 people who have rode crew, 10 went to the Olympics. So what is that? Like a 0.5%, not even 0.5% went to the Olympics. It's 0.1% of podcasters are self-sustaining economically. So you are 5 times more likely to go Olympics if you wrote at UCLA, then have a successful podcast. This is a difficult business, but once you get, once you get to break even, the economics here are incredible because there's— what do we have?

We have, we have 3 producers. We have, we outsource our ad sales to, to Vox, and this is a $15 million business growing to $25 probably in the next 24 months. Like, just do the math. This is an incredible Probably this creates as much EBITDA. Pivot will probably create as much EBITDA as one of the most successful shows on MSNOW or Fox or anywhere else. It won't be as big top line, but the EBITDA margins are just incredibly dramatic. But hands down, the most rewarding thing from a hosting point—

It's the relationship. It's the relationship with fans.

These really lovely people come up to you and they start talking to you about their kids. I mean, maybe they do that.

No, I never had it happen. Never had it happen. My whole career. I have had a long and pretty, like, well-known career. But I'll tell you, a very famous author was on my plane today and he texted. He had my number. He texted me, just thank you for what you're doing. And I, he didn't want to say hi because he felt like he was bothering me, which he wasn't.

But what I'll say is we have, we have a responsibility. And I think our responsibility, I'm trying to live up to this, is the medium is creating good vibes. I think mostly because, and I do think this is true of most podcasts, when you go on cable TV, and this happened to me when I went on Piers Morgan or a couple times when I've gone on Fox, they're trying to engage a little bit in call-out culture and create antagonism. I have found the vast majority of podcasters when I go on their podcast, even if they disagree with me, even if they're conservative, they're trying to present you in a fair and positive light. And I think as podcasters, we have an obligation to maintain that cultural zeitgeist. To be, to show some grace, to even if you disagree with people, we're not in the business of calling them out. You want a thoughtful, nuanced conversation. Let them run with their views.

Yes, that's, I wouldn't say, it's okay to disagree and it's okay to push back. I do think you have to informational and like, let's hear this person is what I'm trying to do. And I like with the Tillis one.

Your goal isn't to make them look stupid. Right, sometimes you do. Your goal is to have a thoughtful discourse such that your listener your listeners learn, but also to demonstrate that people from different sides of the political spectrum can demonstrate some grace towards each other.

I agree. I agree with you. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth has been talking about the war in Iran in distinctly biblical terms, citing Psalms, the resurrection, Resurrection of Jesus and the Book of Quentin.

And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to capture and destroy my brother.

President Trump is comparing himself to Christ. Vice President Pence is fighting with the Pope. Watching all of this is the increasingly influential Pastor Doug Wilson. He co-founded the church that Hegseth attends. Wilson's a Christian nationalist who would like the USA to be a theocracy. He'd would also like to help us get there, though he doesn't think it's going to happen anytime soon.

I believe that it is accelerating. I believe that we're making significant gains. I see us assembling resources, and I'm encouraged in that labor. But I don't expect to see what we're praying for in my lifetime.

Pastor Doug Wilson and how much you should worry about his plans on Today Explained from Vox. Weekdays, afternoons, wherever.

Immigration may be Donald Trump's signature issue.

President Trump is now targeting predominantly Democratic cities for ICE raids and deportation. Protesters clashing with Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents in Minneapolis.

We will begin the process of returning millions and millions of criminal aliens back to the places from which they came. But what we want to do in this space is talk about America and politics beyond the current president. So what do most Americans think about deportation and border security, period?

I think that Americans are definitely against the kind of violent displays that we've seen in the street from ICE. When it comes to the question of deportation, the answer is more complicated. My sense— Yep. —is that people want order at the border. They don't like the idea of having no idea who's coming into the United States at any given time.

The view on immigration from the bottom up instead of the top down. That's this week on America Actually, every Saturday in your audio and video feeds.

From Iran to Venezuela to China, what is driving President Trump's foreign policy?

Both Russia and China are big losers if there's a transition in the nature of the, of the Iranian government, which again is why I think we have to see this campaign through. I'm Jake Sullivan. And I'm John Feiner, and we're the hosts of The Long Game, a weekly national security podcast. This week, Trump's former National Security Advisor H.R. McMaster and Deputy National Security Advisor Matt Pottinger join us. The episode's out now. Search for and follow The Long Game wherever you get your podcasts.

Okay, Scott, we're gonna do some wins and fails. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go first if you don't I already talked about Palantir's stupid manifesto, but two people, Ron Conway, a really well-known figure in Silicon Valley who I like very much. He was the one that was pushing back on— He's been— I just really like him. He and I have had lots of beefs over the years, but he's a really legendary venture capitalist. He announced he had a cancer. He's not giving specifics about it, and he's fighting it. He's given so much money to medical stuff in San Francisco. Incredibly generous and unusual for a lot of these VCs who just only think about themselves. But Ron's a very civic-minded guy. Minded person in San Francisco. And people have different views with him, but I really adore him. And he's struggling with some cancer. And he wrote me a series of very joyful texts over the weekend. "I love you. Thank you so much." Because I wrote him a note. And I just hope he has all the money to do, and all the connections in science, because he's done so much fundraising. I hope for the best for him.

And the second one is So that's a fail for mine. And same thing is Senator Warner's daughter died. She had juvenile diabetes and a series of health issues. And I, both Scott and I love talking to him. We find him very thoughtful. And so I just, we are, my condolences go to him. She's 36 years old and again, struggled with juvenile diabetes and ensuing bunches of issues. And my win is this Atlantic piece. It's a little bit of a dunker, but everyone is getting on board with this idea. That maybe the tech billionaires aren't here to help us, which I think is a narrative I've tried to get through a little bit. But I thought that this guy Noah Hawley, who was responsible for Fargo and a bunch of other things I love online, he's been writing for The Atlantic, and I just really, really enjoy his work. But I really— let me just read two quotes from this piece in The Atlantic. It's called "What I Learned About Billionaires at Jeff Bezos's Private Retreat." These guys are having their own retreats. Bezos's is called Campfire. And it's a devastating piece, actually, and I think very true and fair.

"This is the hubris of accomplishment. To be declared a genius at one thing is to begin to believe you are a genius at everything. It's not that the wealthy become evil, it's that their environment stops teaching them the things that non-wealthy people are forced to learn simply by living in a world that pushes back. When you can buy your way out of any mistake, when you can fire anyone who disagrees with you, when your social circle consists entirely of people who need something from you, the basic The Basic Mechanism by Which Humans Learn That Other People Are Real Goes Dark. Fantastic piece. Noah Hawley. I recommend it. It's beautifully written and incredibly fair.

And so anyway, yours? I'm just gonna, I'm just parroting your comments. I did not know that about Ron Conway, and I'm sorry to hear that. Ron invested in two of my companies back in the '90s when I was playing in traffic and starting e-commerce companies. He invested, he was one of my first investors in Red Envelope. And one of my first investors in my e-commerce incubator, Brand Farm. I didn't know that. Wow. Yeah. And I'll say this about Ron, you know, you have good investors and you have bad investors. And Ron, I would just describe as incredibly supportive. No matter what was going on, was emotionally and financially just like really on the side of entrepreneurs. And I'm sorry to hear that. I share your warm wishes. Also share your condolences and sympathies with Senator Warner. Obviously every parent's worst nightmare. I know Senator Warner, I would consider myself friendly, but I'm not close friends with him. But I have a close friend who's very close to Senator Warner. And the senator has been approached by any number of people on a regular basis about running for president. And a lot of people felt that he brought the gravitas, the credentials, and quite frankly, the kind of moderate positioning that they thought would be a great candidate for president.

And what I have heard is that he never ever seriously considered it because he was always very focused on his family. So he is that guy, not the one who was performative, "Oh, I'm gonna check with my family." He was oftentimes, people wanted to draft him, but he was always kind of family first. Anyways, share your condolences. My win is much more boring. I just wanted to talk a little bit about Reed Hastings, and just the incredible tenure, '99 to 2023, founded in 1997. So he's there 30 years. So you wanna talk about from a startup to global giant. In 2000, they had 300,000 subscribers. This year they'll have 300 million. The revenue went from— the revenue went from $3 billion in 2011. This year it will do $45 billion. In terms of market value, they rejected a $50 million acquisition offer in 2000. This year, they're now worth about $400 billion, one of the largest value creations in tech history. In terms of business transformation, talk about the mother of all, you know, big ball pivots from DVD rentals to streaming in 2007, from streaming to original content with House of Cards. And then he's gone from the US to 190+ countries globally.

Their profitability, tons of losses in the 2000s, multi-billions in annual profits. And then the cultural impact that people don't talk enough about was that Netflix deck they put out on their culture. They talk about freedom and responsibility, no vacation limits, high-performance culture. And the thing I did actually take something from them, they stated out loud that they wanted to be a company known for exceptional compensation. I've tried to adopt the same thing. I've always tried to pay my people more than market, or I shouldn't say always, the last 10 years. But this company, they took a DVD-by-mail startup, they pivoted into streaming, they scaled it globally, and they turned it into a half a trillion-dollar media platform. 30 years, 1,000x user growth, 15x revenue growth, and, you know, redefined or defined the category I would argue one of the top 5 to 10 tech CEO careers of the last 30 years. And you know what? He did it with a lot of grace. He was never— Grace. Absolutely. He was never a scandal, never shitposting other people, never found drunk driving, never shitty tweets he had to erase or delete.

Never attention on himself. You know, just— Yeah. Can I just add that? I've had him on stage many times, but I have to say, of all the people, I would rather spend time with Reed Hastings. And I know Hollywood all hates their missed system, but it's not their fault that they found a way to do a different system. It's Hollywood's fault for having a bad economic system that was no longer sustainable. They like to sort of blame Netflix. I think that's unfair. They do what they do. That's what they make. And I don't think they're diminishing it. You just— you don't have to watch it if you don't like it in that regard. And I think they put out a lot of great content, actually. They put in a lot of silly content too. But I gotta tell you, what a— he's a fucking class act. Act. He's— so is Ron. They're class acts, all these guys you're talking about.

And he clearly imprinted really solid DNA. The co-CEOs now, Greg Peters and Ted Sarandos— I don't know Greg, but I know Ted. But they both have a reputation for being not only very intelligent but very decent men. So Netflix, a great company, great leadership, and this guy's historic run is, is historic. So my win is the tenure of, of Reed Hastings.

By the way, one of the things I was thinking about, Scott, was you talked about that is the decency, and we started with the incompetence, like a Kash Patel. People are fucking sick of these incompetents and these, like, look-at-me performative bullshit liars. Like, I don't know what else to say, but I was watching Obama and Mondame sing— they were promoting universal free childcare and singing Wheels on the Bus.

Did you see that video? It was very likable, humane. It was very nice. It was really nice.

Yes, it was so nice. I was like, "Enough of that, the other shit, the Kash Patels, and more of that. More wheels on the bus." That's all I have to say. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to ny mag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Elsewhere in the Karen Scott universe, this week on On with Kara Swisher, I spoke with comedian Nikki Glaser, who is a new member standup special called Good Girl coming out Friday on Hulu. She talked about, uh, how overcoming fear pushes her to be the best. Let's listen to a clip. I love fear. I run into fear. Picture fear as like a wall that you have to run into. And so I was— I kind of go into that of like, I know that my self-esteem is built upon doing things that are hard and conquering them. So I know that on the other side of doing this horribly uncomfortable thing is is me feeling better about myself. It's a great interview. Scott, she reminded me of you a little bit. It was interesting.

I was talking to her. It was interesting. I think you'll like it.

I like her 'cause she's dirty. She's also dirty.

She talked about that. Anyway, the show is called Good Girl, and she's not always good in the show, but actually, she is. She's a really talented comic. I like her a lot, and very thoughtful, and very funny. That's the most important part. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot, and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday.

Today's show was produced by Lara Namensway, Marcus Taylor-Griffin, and Todd Weissman. Ernie Entretat engineered the episode. Rich Chivley edited the video. Thanks also to Drew Brose, Missy Viera, and Dan Shulman, the show at Coraz Vox Media's executive producer podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine, ny mag.com/pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Care— have a great rest of the week.