Transcript of The Reckoning | Episode 6 New

10 years ago, I would be talking about this situation very differently than today.

10 years ago, Stacey didn't call it grooming.

I did a really good job of making it as okay as it could be for people. I knew it was weird, and so I think I probably did an over-the-top job of making it feel as comfortable as I could for everybody. Sometimes that meant avoiding

But other times, she actually joked about it.

Oh yeah, I married my teacher, but it wasn't that big of a deal. Like, he wasn't like 60 or something, and my family knew him.

And sometimes people laughed, sometimes people shifted awkwardly, but that's usually where it ended because most of the time people didn't want to get into it. But occasionally you cross paths with someone who knows. Every joke, every glance, has a bit of truth behind it.

One of my good friends and I were going hiking, and we were just getting to know each other. I told her the story, and I was like, oh, I have a crazy story to tell you. And I remember her stopping me and saying, like, I hope you're gonna be able to heal from this. I was like, oh yeah, I'm fine. I'm good. I'm over it.

Stacy was far from over it. In fact, she was just getting started.

It's been a long process of Really sitting in it and acknowledging what actually happened, acknowledging that the grooming really happened starting when I was 15, that slow boil into 18, 19, into 20, I was never able to handle that. I am 44, and I'm just telling people bits of this story that I never felt comfortable telling.

I'm Sydney Gladio, and this is Not Just a Terrible Story. During the course of reporting this story, we reached out to Brett Fischer for an interview and with a detailed list of questions regarding the allegations against him. At the time of publication, he has not responded to our request for comment. Brett and Stacey returned to Oregon in 2006. She remembers Brett was on his best behavior for a while. They settled down in a different suburb. Brett got that job at Inside Track coaching college students. Stacey started teaching design at the Art Institute. The past was starting to feel distant. Their time in Dallas was almost a fever dream. That made it easy for Stacey to compartmentalize.

The reality is I was glad it was over too, 'cause I was married to him.

As time went on, they decided to start a family. Stacey was 28 and Brett was 37 when their son was born. That's when everything started changing.

I started going to therapy after my son was born. I don't know if it was postpartum, but I just felt this, like, disconnect that really threw me. And so I started to go to therapy to figure out where that was coming from, because that's not the mom I wanted to be for this little boy.

Brett didn't think anything of Stacy going to therapy, and neither did she. Life kept getting busier. Their son was a toddler, and they decided to have another baby, a girl. Looking back, Stacy can't tell if that choice fell during one of their good stretches or if it was just another Band-Aid. Stacy's children are the best thing that's ever happened to her. Becoming a mom gave her a whole new fierceness. But now, with 2 young kids at home, and 2 busy working parents, Brett and Stacey found themselves struggling. Their marriage was strung together by long, exhausting arguments.

My experience with arguing with Brett was we are going to argue until 3 o'clock in the morning, 4 o'clock in the morning, until I finally gave in. And I'm a very stubborn person, so I'm not going to just give in if I don't feel like that's right. But I do think that I would get exhausted enough to where I was like, fine, I'm just gonna pick my battle, and this isn't gonna be one of my battles.

One of those battles was about daycare drop-off and pickup. Most days, Stacey did both. Her mother-in-law ran a daycare out of her home and watched the grandkids for free. The only catch was Brett's mom lived 45 minutes from them in the opposite direction of Stacey's work.

I was probably driving 3 hours a day just getting the kids back and forth alone outside of taking care of a home, taking care of kids. I would teach 2 4-hour classes, so I probably got there at like 7:30, taught all day, went and picked up the kids, got dinner ready, and I did the majority of the housework. I did the yard work, I did the house projects. I really was pretty much managing and taking care of most things that were happening at our house.

Brett was around and he was working full-time, but so was Stacey.

It was exhausting. At the same time, I loved being a mom and like seeing the kids so happy, so A lot of it was okay to do, and it was easier to keep Brett from flaring up or doing whatever he was going to do. And so that just kind of kept the peace in the house, and it kept things fun.

Stacey was good at pacifying Brett, but she was running on empty, and it wasn't the kids or the job or the house that never stopped needing her. Stacey was starting to get some perspective on her life in her weekly therapy sessions. It was exhausting to wake up next to a man that she still didn't trust. On one evening, she found a few moments to sit down and be honest.

We had a really beautiful house overlooking this view of Lake Oswego, and we could see the sunset. I was working with my therapist on trust and all of these different things, and I just sat him down and I just said, hey, I don't trust you anymore based on everything that's happened between us, but we've got these 2 amazing kids, and I know that you have to have trust in a relationship. So I'm going to just force myself to trust you. And I held my hand out. I'm putting my heart in your hands. So if you do anything else, I'm going to have to make the decision to end this because it's too hard for me and it doesn't feel safe and it doesn't feel right.

Sitting on the porch swing, Brett was receptive. He assured Stacey he understood and would do right by her. Stacey had asked for what she needed. And it seemed to go well.

It was very much a time of, like, starting to advocate for myself, starting to ask for help with more of the child duties.

Stacey's therapist had been encouraging her to do something just for her, something that would give her a break and help her reconnect to herself. She decided to book a trip to visit her sister-in-law in LA.

I was really excited to go on the trip. I think I was there for, like, 5 days.

Stacey had a great time in LA with her sister-in-law. They went on hikes and got pedicures, explored museums and restaurants, and stayed up late talking.

I remember one of our late night talks, I just said, I have this weird feeling, and I always have this feeling when I travel or when there's, like, distance with Brett, feeling like he was doing something secretive or something wrong or just an icky feeling.

This wasn't a new feeling to Stacey, but her sister-in-law reassured her.

She was like, no, I'm sure it's fine. I think you're just, like, being a little paranoid. And I was like, yeah, I probably am being paranoid. Okay, let's just push it aside.

Stacy got home a few days later and jumped right back into the mix of parenting.

We had put the kids to bed, getting ready to go back to work and stuff on Monday. And I said, hey, by the way, could you help me and make an appointment, a doctor's appointment? And Brett was like, yeah, sure, just go ahead and send me an email. And so I sent an email to his work and his personal just quickly on my phone, like, hey, don't forget about the doctor's appointment. And his work email bounced back out of office. I didn't even think anything of it, honestly. I was just like, oh, that's weird. Your work just bounced back out of office. And he was like, oh, weird. Oh, we're going to your parents' house next week. I must have, like, set it up wrong. That's really strange. And I really didn't think much of it.

But as they got ready for bed, Brett turned to Stacey.

He said, hey, I have to tell you, I just lied to you. I actually took all of last week off, and that's why the out of office came back. I just remember being really shocked, and it was just the moment internally I knew that was going to be the end of our relationship.

This was by no means the worst thing Brett had ever done in their relationship, not even close to the worst lie he'd ever told Stacy, but it was the final straw.

It wasn't about him taking time off because I'm Taking time off to try and restore myself and get some energy back, and he could have done that too. What really upset me was you requested the vacation, you planned the vacation, you put your out of office on, you dropped your kids off at your parents' every day and lied to her, then you picked them up and lied to her about what your day was like, and then we talked on the phone and you lied about it. Just so much deception there.

Suddenly, many things became clear to Stacey. The reality of their relationship, how it had begun, Brett's behavior that she'd explained away all these years, the power imbalance that she pretended didn't exist.

It was just too much for me, and my eyes were just very wide open that that was going to be my life if I didn't make some very serious decisions. The moment he said it, I just knew, and I told him, I just said, I don't know if this is anything I'll ever be able to get over. Me saying that was me saying, this is the end, but I'm not strong enough to tell you that this is the end right now.

It would take her 6 months to tell Brett it was the end.

I stopped sleeping in the bedroom, and I would sleep on the couch because my anxiety was just so high, and I was so panicked, and I didn't know what to do. I was getting barely any sleep at this time. A big thing I was thinking is just like, we have these 2 kids. I don't know what to do. Like, I obviously need to get myself out, but I don't know I was never raised to get divorced. My parents were high school sweethearts. It wasn't something that I knew how to navigate or understood all that much, except for I knew it had to happen.

At this point, Stacey was 32. She and Brett had been married for 11 years. Leaving him went against everything Stacey had been raised to do and be. She was cycling between panic and freezing. She had debilitating stomach pain. She tried to carry on. But suddenly she could barely get through the day. One Sunday morning, after a sleepless night of stomach pain, she slept in while Brett took the kids to church. When Brett got back with the kids, they were all in the kitchen.

We were just kind of in there getting snacks, and there was some argument, and there was always an argument. I mean, we argued a lot.

In the heat of the argument, Stacey felt a tug on her pant leg.

I just remember seeing my daughter, who was 2 at the time, in the kitchen. Her standing there, she's not even as tall as the countertop, you know, just like this little itty-bitty tiny girl. And just thinking like, there's no way I can show this to her as a marriage. I just, I just knew I couldn't. I wanted to show her something real where I was respected and I could have a conversation back and forth with someone and we could be on a level playing field and be growing and supporting each other. I think that's when I got up the nerve to just tell Brett, like, it's just done.

It became clear to Stacey that this was bigger than just her and Brett. It was time to tell him she wanted a divorce.

I knew I had to do it. I didn't know how to do it. I didn't tell anyone, not a soul, that I was going to do it. Not a therapist, not a friend. And I don't remember it being a huge, big conversation, to be honest.

Stacey remembers Brett absorbed the news calmly. He didn't push back or try to convince her to stay. Of all the ways she'd anticipated this moment going, she never expected acceptance.

We would go to mediation together, work through the logistics of finances and kids' schedules and parenting plan and what have you. And he definitely would give me, like, big hugs at the end. And I was like, you've got to just stop. It's just done.

It was eerie how quickly they started figuring out how to separate. Stacey and Brett switched off parenting duties, rotating each week. The on parent stayed upstairs with the kids, and the off parent lived in the finished basement or crashed at a friend's house. Everyone in their circle seemed to understand their relationship was over, including their close mutual friend, who we'll call David. David was Brett's age but had spent countless hours with both of them from the beginning of their relationship. He saw their marriage for what it was, maybe more than anyone else. During their separation, David spent time with Brett and Stacey individually. One day, David and Stacey were hanging out, having a glass of wine, and he told her about a conversation he'd had with Brett.

He was like, I don't get it. Like, did you not love Stacey? And he was like, no, I loved her. I just thought she'd never leave. I think he thought I was going to do what I always did, where I just gave in, eventually broke down, you know, eventually just decided to make peace. And that was never going to happen. Having children is the proudest thing that I've ever done, but divorcing him was a close second.

It took years for Stacy to realize that she didn't have to stay.

I honestly never would have gotten divorced had I not gone to therapy in the first place. That's what kind of gave me the courage to, to do it. I kind of think about therapy like an onion. It's like I'm getting closer and closer into, like, the essence of who I am and shedding those layers.

For Stacey, those layers were laced with dark thoughts that swirled inside of her, echoes that replayed in her head when she found herself in moments of silence.

I thought to myself all these years, you should have known better. And I've really struggled with how hard I fell for it. For a long time, I've been really embarrassed. I have this fear of people judging me. What an idiot. I'm still scared that I'm going to get in trouble for this. I don't want this to be my story. I really don't. I don't want this to be my life.

But in therapy, she started to examine these things she called truths with a critical eye.

I'm definitely still in it. I'm definitely not healed. I'm at a place where I can talk about it. I'm at a place where I'm not going to be hiding it for him anymore. If I even think about 10 years ago, I would be talking about this situation very differently than today. It's been a long process of really sitting in it and acknowledging what actually happened.

Slowly, over time, Stacey started to reframe some of those negative thoughts, and how she saw herself shifted.

I'm saying what happened. I'm telling my truth and my story. The adult in the room is the one who should be putting up the boundaries. All I can do is work on it and Keep working on it and keep working on it. I'm a lot more gentle on myself. When you've gone through something like this, the best way I can handle it is to heal myself as their mom.

Back in December 2024, Katie and I were in Portland to record with Stacy. We spent time in her world. At her home. We wanted to see Stacey's life today. She has a young son and a supportive marriage to her new husband, Aaron. Stacey and Brett's 2 kids are now teenagers and split their time with each parent. As we pulled into the driveway, Stacey waved from her kitchen window and met us at the front door.

Hi! Come on in! Hi! Good morning.

Music was playing in the background, a candle was burning on the kitchen counter, and her youngest son was home from school for the day.

Yeah, can you say hi? Oh, it's a game of like smile, don't look at the tote bag.

Like I said, I met Stacy in the interior design world, and the second you walk into her home, you can tell.

Oh, I love your house.

Oh, thanks. So cool. Yeah, it's very eclectic, very like Maxine. My dog jumps in those chairs, they're so cool. Pretty much everything you see is vintage or like was, you know, either from OfferUp, Craigslist, or like a thrift shop or something like that. Like that sofa, that sectional, that was custom made for one of the Trailblazers way back in the day, and it was at this vintage shop, and so that's why it's like extra big.

Yeah.

She gave us a little tour of the upstairs and a personalized gallery wall that hung in the stairwell down to the family room.

So this, like, these are 2 watercolors that I've done, but this, like, my daughter did a long time ago. I try to include their art too. My son did these watercolors. I did this one. And then we have, like, friends' art up here. That picture is from my parents' house growing up. That little white card is our wedding card that we sent out for, like, the details of what we were gonna do.

The gallery wall isn't just beautiful, it's evidence of how Stacy has spent the last 13 years of her life unraveling and rebuilding.

When you were leaving Brett and moving into this next phase of your life,

yeah,

is this what you imagined your life would look like?

I literally didn't care what it looked like, and I had no Vision. I just wanted to be free from that situation.

Yeah.

Um, I actually couldn't even— and this is, like, not like me at all— but I couldn't even, like, pack up and move out. My parents had to come up and, like, literally pack my stuff up for me and get me to the next place, because it was, like, um, like, all I'd ever known, really. It was very scary. And it was also very freeing. Like, I felt— happier than I ever felt, like, just so free. And like, I don't know how to even describe it to you. It was— I feel bad saying that, you know, but it just was like, oh my God, I'm free.

Stacy's healing has happened in chapters and phases. At first, she had to reckon with all the life she felt like she had missed.

Getting divorced and never having, like, my 20s, I definitely had a wild phase of like, I'm gonna sow my wild oats. Uh, so I was a little bit out there for a little bit. It's pretty fun, but, um, had to come down to, like, reality and get grounded again.

When Stacey first left Brent, she had never lived on her own. She was suddenly a 32-year-old single mom with 2 young kids trying to make it work. At first, Stacey and the kids moved in with a friend, and then later a boyfriend, but things with the boyfriend started to fizzle quickly.

There had been tension built up Since the moment we moved in. I said, I'm going to take some space and take my kids down to my parents' beach house for the weekend, then I'll be back.

On the way down, they stopped at a restaurant to stretch their legs and grab some dinner.

So we're in the booth and I said, what do you guys think? Do you think we should get out of there? Or do you— do you want that to happen? And my son was like, yeah. And I was like, all right, I got this. We're good.

Then, during their visit with her parents, something happened that made Stacey feel like the universe was pointing her in the right direction.

I have this tattoo on my neck that says Je t'aime, and it has 2 M's in it.

The 2 M's are her kids' initials. It's a reminder of her North Stars, her source of courage and strength. She got the tattoo in a shop below an apartment building.

I remembered going to the tattoo parlor and being like, whoa, these apartments are really cool. Like, I would love to move there someday. So then when I went down to my parents' house, It was just one of those life moments where it was like everything was clicking. I started looking on Craigslist and I was like, oh my gosh, those are the apartments. And there was one for rent.

Stacey's parents were nervous about her taking on a lease with much higher rent and encouraged her to stay at the boyfriend's house because it was affordable. Their advice was practical and it came from a good place, but ultimately it served as a wake-up call for Stacey.

The light bulb went off and I was like, This is it. This is where I learned to just abandon yourself. You know, don't take into account your emotional needs. Just double down. You can do it. You can be tough enough. You can withstand. And just being like, this is where I'm gonna make the change.

She and the kids moved into the apartment a few weeks later.

I had never really been on my own or had my own autonomy. The kids and I living there was the first time I felt fully alive as a human.

Stacey said her kids still talk about their fond memories of living in that apartment, like having dance parties and the 3 of them going to farmers markets and knocking around their neighborhood. Stacey started riding her bike again.

When I first lived in the apartment and was having a great time, and it was so freeing and fun and carefree and kind of childlike in a certain sort of way. And then I started dating Aaron, and just like many relationships, as soon as you have a person there with a mirror and they're putting it over to you and you're putting it over to them, that really opened up the door of like, okay, there's a lot more to unpack here, there's a lot more to address here.

Stacy had done a lot of work just to get to the place where she could even consider a long-term relationship. When she met Aaron, she wasn't just learning how to be a single mom. She was learning how to be on her own. After a few years in the apartment, Aaron, Stacy, and the kids all moved into a tiny house together.

The only place I could afford in Portland, literally.

They knew it wasn't their forever home, and they wanted to grow their family.

And then one of my old best friends used to live in that house right there.

Stacy pointed out the kitchen window to the house directly across the street.

And she was like, Stacy, that's gonna be your house someday. And I was like, no, it's not. She's like, it has a pool and a basement and da da da. And then Aaron and I got engaged and we were at our house, the little house, and he was making breakfast.

Stacy was sitting at her old kitchen table casually perusing real estate online, one of her favorite pastimes.

And I was like, oh my gosh, our house is for sale. And Aaron was like, oh, that's too bad. I'm like, what do you mean too bad? He's like, We don't— we're not ready to sell this house. It's not for sale. And he was going snowboarding that day, so I called my real estate agent. I was like, get me in this house. So my friend came over and we went through the house, and I remember opening that door and being like, I just have never had that feeling before. I just knew it was gonna happen. I don't know, I just saw it. And she was like, don't get too excited. And I was like, no, no, this is happening. I've never had this feeling before. And she was just like, I don't want you to be disappointed. And I'm like, I just— I'm telling you, this is gonna happen.

It was meant to be. They got the house. Stacy's husband Aaron is a contractor, so they're kind of a dynamic duo spending their weekends doing home projects.

We refinished all of the floors. All the base is new. He's changed out a bunch of windows. He's done, like, foundational stuff. He did this whole kitchen. Um, the bathroom I can show you is, like, kind of been mid-renovation for 7 years. I don't— I should know what the term is.

Maybe the metaphor is too on the nose here. Stacey, in partnership with her new husband, has literally built the life she wanted. But even in this new life, she can't fully escape Brett.

I would say one of the most difficult things of co-parenting with Brett has been having to be back in school settings with him. There's really never been any peace or resolution in how our relationship started.

Stacy said her parent-teacher conferences were a big pain point. So are her kids' performances and games.

I want to go and I want to support the kids. I also have to work on my own anxiety and my own inner workings too. So like, how do I balance that, especially with The kids in the sporting events starting to be the same age that I was when I met Brett. So now we're looking at 14, 15-year-olds, 16-year-olds. It's triggering for me.

Recently, Stacey had to go back to Centennial High School to watch a sports game. This game was set to be in the same gym where Stacey had PE and attended countless pep rallies.

It also makes me feel incredibly protective of my younger self. that is sitting next to me in those settings. And that's okay for me to say.

So that day when you walked into Centennial, did you feel like— like she was with you? Like little Stacy was there?

Even like pulling into the parking lot, I felt like high school Stacy was there with me going to this game. You know, those lockers opening and closing and People shuffling in and out. And so a lot of those memories kind of flooded back of really, like, fun times.

Stacey said the halls outside the gym were covered with trophy cases, banners, and sports memorabilia from decades of Eagles victories.

We walked in the back, which then leads into the gymnasium. So you're walking by, like, the history of all the sports and trophies and, you know, for both drama, band, It was funny to walk in, and it always felt so big to me there, but it felt so small to

me. As you're getting in there, shuffling in, finding your seat, you didn't know if Brett was going to be there that day or not?

No, I didn't know if he was going to be there or not. And it honestly would have been really hard for me had he been there, especially in that setting. It's where I went to high school. It's where I went to pep rallies with him dressed up in a tutu. And, you know, that innocence of high school years.

So when he— when he wasn't there, can you describe how that felt?

It felt great, actually. It felt really peaceful and fun. And I just felt totally free and like a normal mom, which was really nice and refreshing, to be honest.

At the end of the game, Stacey walked out to the parking lot and got in her car. Something small had shifted.

I almost felt like my old high school self back a little bit, which is a little bit more energetic, a little bit more playful. I think I played, like, some old nostalgic music on the way back, and I don't know what to make of it, but I do remember there was this crazy thing that happened in the sky where The sun was shooting through, and both Aaron and I, when we got back, we were like, oh my gosh, did you see that? And it just kind of was like, it's going to be okay. You're on the right track. It's just— it's hard. But it definitely was a freeing feeling. I don't know that I'll ever be in a healed place from the complex trauma that I've been through. I don't know if that's even possible, but I do know As I go through it, I'm having more days of feeling, like, at peace. And just, I mean, like, at peace.

Accepting what you can't change is only half of looking back. The other half is refusing to stay silent. For Stacey, sharing what happened in high school and the decades that followed is moving on. Just a couple weeks before this show came out, Stacy shared with me that even though she's worked through so much, she still felt like she was carrying some of it. And she decided she was done. She needed to release it. Once again, she put pen to paper.

So many of us have spent years carrying the weight of a school culture that betrayed us. We carried the shame, we carried the embarrassment, we carried the confusion, we carried the silence. We carried the consequences of choices made by adults who were supposed to protect us. But we were never supposed to carry any of it. We were just kids. The responsibility was always yours. So I'm placing all of it— the shame, the secrecy, the confusion, the betrayal, the weight of what happened— into a little boat, and I'm placing sage and candles And I'm sending it back to you. We are keeping our voice. We are keeping our truth. We are keeping the lives that we fought to build. This weight is not ours anymore. It's your turn to carry it. It's your turn to do better.

The first time I spoke to Stacy, I asked her where she wanted this to go. She told me she didn't just want to close the chapter on this part of her life. She wanted to close the fucking book and write a completely different story. So as we reported over the past 2 years, Katie and I took careful note of all the times we learned about anything— a policy, a procedure, a cultural shift— that might have changed Stacy's story. The things that could prevent future instances of educator sexual misconduct. This isn't our exhaustive list, but these are a few of the things you can do today, no matter who you are. Here's Katie.

The first, and maybe the most important, is understanding what grooming is, what it looks like, and how subtle it can be. Being able to recognize red flag behaviors and having language for it prepares you to take action if you ever need to.

Number 2, report anything and everything, even if it's a quote-unquote rumor, even if it's not your kid. If you have a suspicion, you should always report and follow up to make sure There's a proper investigation.

Number 3, vote. Vote in your local elections for school board members. They're the ones who can create district-wide sexual misconduct policies and create a culture of reporting. Also, vote in your state elections. So many laws vary by state, so this is where we can do things like increase the age of consent and expand the definition of a student.

4, be in community with adults in your school district. This is how you hear the unofficial news of what's going on at school. Chat with other parents at school pickup and drop-off, at soccer games, theater rehearsal, and choir practice. Encourage people to report anything that doesn't sit right. If you want to seek more resources or get involved, there are some really great organizations working on these issues. We've dropped links to some of them in the show notes. I'm Sydney Gladue.

And I'm Katie Cline.

Thank you so much for listening to Not Just a Terrible Story. We are an independent production. You can support us by sharing this podcast with a friend and leaving a 5-star review wherever you are listening right now. Or hop over to our Substack, terriblestory.substack.com. There's a lot of great free stuff over there— archival photos, resources, and stories that didn't make it into the show. And you can also get early and ad-free episodes as a paid subscriber. To get in touch, send us an email at terriblestorypodcast@gmail.com. This podcast was created and produced by Katie Klein and me, me, your host, Sydney Gladue. Story editing by Lacey Roberts. Show art by Casey Brunell. Original music and mixing by Sean Simmons. Additional music from Blue Dot Sessions. Maria Pagliologos is our strategic growth advisor. Support provided by Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press. And a very special thank you to Stacy Love, whose bravery, honesty, and determination made this series possible. May her truth-telling give others permission to trust their own stories, use their voices, and know that they are not alone. If you or anyone you know is experiencing sexual violence and needs help, please visit rainn.org. That's R-A-I-N-N dot O-R-G.

Or call the National Hotline at 1-800-656-HOPE or text HOPE to 64673. If you'd like to learn more about educator sexual misconduct, Check out the show notes for additional resources.