Transcript of Episode 572: Heavenly Creatures: The Parker-Hulme Murder

Wondery subscribers can listen to morbid early and ad free. Join wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash.

And I'm Elena.

And this is morbid.

It sure is. It's Morbad.

It's Memorial Day Monday. Morbad. Yes. Happy Memorial Day. A couple weeks late.

Yep. Happy Memorial Day. Two weeks ago.

I hope that you had a day off. I hope that you got to vibe.

Vibe so hard.

And I hope that you had a good beach day.

Yeah.

Or however you chose to do your day.

Celebrate your day. Yeah.

Okay. We're doing a little half day.

We're doing a half day.

I want to get some wings after this. Let's fucking go. Except everything is closed, so I have to find a place that may. Wings.

Gotta find some wings.

Maybe I'll make my own wangs.

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I don't want to.

No, definitely not you. Yeah, I think. I'm trying to think of any business we have.

You got some bookshit. I know you do.

The only business I really have is there's a giveaway contest. Give it away.

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Pre order. And you can go to the butcher game.com, and it'll lead you to all the links to all the different booksellers and all the different outlets that you can get your book and you can choose which one you would like to support. That's on you, man. I support you.

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Yeah, do it. Yeah, that's fun and exciting. Yippee. I don't have anything fun and exciting, okay? I just have a morbid case, and it's an interesting one. It's very, very folly. Adieu. Emed.

I saw the name of this one, and I know this case, like, very briefly.

Yeah.

But I don't know a lot of the details.

So I had never heard of this case. I had heard of the movie. We're talking about the heavenly creatures case today. It's the Parker Hume murder.

Yeah, I definitely. I know the, like, literally the overview of this, but I know none of the details.

Yeah, I was just looking for. You know, we're in a place of, like, old timey.

I don't know. It's an interesting look into the past. It is for sure, because there's other factors that always come into it that are just not here today.

Yeah, exactly. And it's just like, wow. People have always been fucked up. Yeah, but, yeah. I hadn't heard of this particular case. I had heard of the movie heavenly creatures. I've never seen it. Yeah, but, like, I knew it was a movie, but I didn't know any of the details. And if you're going into this like I was. Wow.

Prepare.

You're in for a wild ride. So let's get into it. Juliet Marion Hume was born October 28, 1938, in Greenwich, London, to Henry and Hilda Hume.

Henry and Hilda.

H. H h Henry and Hilda Hume. Henry was a physicist, and Hilda was a homemaker. They both welcomed the birth of their daughter. But motherhood didn't really come naturally to Hilda. She believed, and this is a quote, babies had to learn their place and not be pandered to and fussed over a wild statement.

I don't even know where to begin with that statement.

Imagine looking at a small baby and.

Being to learn your place. Learn your fucking place, baby.

I don't even know my name.

And not be pandered to and fussed over. They are literally brand new humans that rely on you for literally everything.

That's actually all of it. You do have to pander to them and fuss over them.

That's the whole point.

Yeah, I was just having a baby.

But it was confused by people a lot. I'm seeing.

It was a very different time, though. This was like a time of, like, children are to be seen and not heard kind of thing. Like, it's not the gentle parenting that we know. It's definitely not in practice today.

Definitely not.

But as the look at how well.

We'Re all doing, I know millennials are.

Doing a much better job.

Generations later, we're still dealing with all this shit that started way back when.

Tell me about it.

Yeah.

But as the daughter of a presbyterian minister, Hilda was usually rigid in her beliefs around the world. But she maintained a poised and polished exterior that kind of appeared to be somewhat conflicting with the realities of motherhood. Like, we all know moms were running out here like crazy people. Or you're running out there like crazy. You're out there running around like crazy people.

Yeah, like, we. We're a mess.

But she was, like, very polished, very poised, like, never had a hair out of place, anything like that.

I'm always amazed at moms that can do that.

But it was also like, I'm actually.

I'm, like, impressed. I'm not saying, like, oh, my God.

Yeah. I mean, some moms, like, really can.

Do that, but that's what I mean.

And also attend to their children.

Exactly.

But she was more like a.

More. More focusing on her.

Yes, exactly.

That's not good.

So, years later, friends of the couple would recall Hilda as aloof and not very warm to children. To make matters worse, the year that Juliet was born, there was talk of war breaking out across Europe because Hitler and the Germans ramped up their rhetoric at that point in time. And less than a year later, world War Two had broken out. And as the british government readied themselves for the inevitable attacks, it put the entire country in a state of constant anxiety and vigilance that obviously would last for years. So, from a very early age, Juliet showed herself to be a very imaginative child. She seemed to have a lot of difficulty transitioning back and forth between fantasy play and reality. Ah, years later. Yeah. Years later, Hilda would describe Juliet as a very demanding and sensitive daughter who resisted discipline and resented correction.

So is she just a kid?

Yeah, it sounds like it. And it sounds like perhaps. I mean, there are kids that are tougher than others. It's just the way that life works. And it sounds like she might have just been a little bit of a tougher kid.

Yeah.

And what's her expected?

Kids are sensitive. Kids are demanding.

Super demanding.

Kids don't really love discipline.

Yep.

They don't really, like. I don't know. That just seems like.

And what you think when you think of, like, what discipline was back then. I think most kids would resist discipline because a lot of times, discipline was physical.

I was gonna say exactly like discipline back then, especially, like you said, was scary and fear based. No child was welcoming that discipline.

It's human nature to resist a physical punishment.

Yeah. When you're being. When it's fear based, of course you're gonna resist it.

Yeah. But these behavioral problems worsened when her brother Jonathan was born in 1944, or at least in the eyes of people at the time. By then, used to being the focus of her parents attention, Juliet resented her new sibling, which. That's not good. And obviously, that became a problem for Hilda and Henry. So between the war and her mother's poor health, due in part to a difficult pregnancy, Juliet was often separated from her parents for short periods, which caused her to develop a rich inner fantasy life where she could retreat whenever she was feeling anxious or uneasy. It sounded like it was a coping.

Mechanism that, like, breaks my heart.

It's sad. It really is. While Juliet struggled to develop a healthy relationship with her mother, her relationship with her father was equally tenuous. As a mid century british man, Henry Hume was kind of, like, stereotypical to a degree. He was reserved, buttoned up, and exceedingly proper. I just picture this man pinkies up at all times.

Yeah.

But as a physicist, his skills were essential in the fight against the threat of the german invasion, and by the early 1940s, he was promoted to the position of deputy director of naval operational research.

Wow.

Like, a big deal.

Damn.

Throughout the early forties, he would play an increasingly significant role as a consultant to the scientist on the Manhattan project.

Whoa.

Working with many of those who actually developed the atomic bomb.

Damn.

Yeah. An interesting part of history right there that, like, he was directly connected to and a big part of. But given the importance of the role and the urgency of his work, he was often distracted and didn't have a lot of time for his kids.

That's really sad.

Well, and if you think of dads today.

Yeah.

Like, dads today are not what dads used to be like, obviously there's an exception to every.

Across the board in.

In the forties. Like, dads weren't hands on, weren't millennial dads? You know what I mean?

Millennial dads are different kind of dads.

It was a mom's job, so you really have to, like, think about the social differences.

Oh, absolutely. It's a totally different situation across the board. Moms, dads, everything in general.

Yeah, yeah. So when the war ended in 1945, Henry accepted a job as the scient or as a scientific advisor to the air ministry. The job was really prestigious, but when the war ended in 1945, he didn't really want to raise a family in the same place, so he looked for other options. And luckily, he came across an advertisement seeking applications for academic positions at the Canterbury University College in New Zealand. So he jumped at this, at this chance. And his resume being what it was, he was a very promising candidate for the position. And in January of 1948, he was offered a job with the university, which he gladly accepted.

Look at him.

So big moves here.

Let's go. New Zealand, here we come.

New Zealand. Now, for Juliet, the news that the family would be relocating to New Zealand was really neither here nor there.

Yeah, she's just like, whatever.

Well, she's been shuffled around a lot.

Yeah.

At ten years old, she'd already gone through tons of upheaval. She had been sent away before to stay with relatives. She had spent a lot of time in the hospital, so she'd kind of grown accustomed to being away from her parents. So it kind of seems like she was most likely unsurprised when she was again sent away first.

Yeah.

She was sent to live with family friends in the Bay of Islands, New Zealand, months in advance of her parents arrival.

Jesus.

Which. It's like, okay, I'm not entirely sure why. Like, it's like, why can't you all just move at once?

Yeah. I'm not understanding this family dynamic. But you know what?

Like, yeah, I don't know if it was a school thing.

Like, maybe, maybe.

But if Juliet was unmoved by the disruption, her parents seemed equally unaffected by the separation.

Cool.

Although it was never explicitly stated, author Peter Graham wrote, it seems that Hilda and Henry Hume were happy to forgo for as long as they could the company of their daughter, whose, quote, defects in temperament and personality made her difficult and troublesome to handle.

She ten.

It was like a vacation for them, too, to be rid of her for. There's really no better way to say it. I don't get this, but she had a tough upbringing. 100%. There's no way around that.

And again, I don't know who Juliet is in this story, so I'm not even coming from a place of knowing who she is.

Yeah. She becomes someone that you don't necessarily want to root for.

Yeah. But the child listening to this without knowing who Juliet ends up being is me saying, like, that's a bummer for her.

Yeah, it is. Like, that's just the reality of the situation.

Yeah.

But once all the arrangements were made and hurdles were cleared, the family settled in Christchurch, the second largest city in New Zealand, where ten year old Juliet started at the prestigious St. Margaret's College junior School in November of 1948. I feel like in other parts of the world, their schools have, like, way cooler names than we do in the US.

Yeah, they're more intense.

It feels sound like colleges.

Yeah.

Or like universities.

I'm going to university. I'm going to university. I like that so much better.

I know. But despite its good reputation, former students of the school remembered it as a deeply serious and miserable place.

Oh.

Classrooms would darken for no reason. No one ever wanted to be alone in a locker room, they said, and pupils felt like extras in some kind of horror movie.

Wait a fucking sec. This place had a good reputation, but former students are like, oh, no, it's literally the set of a horror movie. Like, what the fuck?

It had a good reputation. I think because of test scores and that kind of thing. It had a good reputation on paper.

Classrooms would darken for no reason. Is this the omen?

No one wanted to be alone in the locker room. This shit was haunted.

This is the exorcist.

Legit?

What?

So needless to say, juliet was happy to leave St. Margaret's behind when she finished 8th grade. So she was there from the time she was ten until she was in 8th grade.

Damn.

And it was at that point that she transferred to the Christchurch girls high school. And it was there that she would meet one Pauline Parker.

Okay.

Born May 26, 1938, Pauline Parker was what her father later described as an average, normal child until age five when she developed osteomyelitis. It's an inflammation of the bone marrow, and she got it in one of her legs. It's like a ridiculously painful condition. And in a time before antibiotics, it was typically fatal, especially in children.

Holy shit.

As it was, Pauline's condition was still very serious, and she spent almost nine months in a hospital. She underwent numerous surgeries and endured two long years of dressing and caring for what was essentially an open wound on her leg.

Oh, God.

Yeah. In addition to the psychological stress of that experience, the physical pain was intense.

Oh, yeah.

And for years after, she endured episodes of leg pain that actually required codeine and aspirin.

Damn.

Which, like, codeine.

That's a lot crazy.

The surgeries also left her with a limp and precluded any participation in sports or strenuous play. So there was no way she was going to be able to really do any kind of sport ever. According to her older sister Wendy, Pauline developed more sedentary hobbies, including model making, and at one point, and this is a quote, went through a period of religious maniac.

Oh, my.

So a lot of. A lot of turmoil.

A lot of turmoil happening around here.

And just trauma, really. Like, that's traumatic to go through at.

A young age and then to be.

Put on medication like that at a young age, like, yeah, we don't really know what that does to people's brains.

Nope.

But unlike Juliet, Pauline's family was solidly middle class. Her father, Burt, worked as a fisherman, and before she had children, her mother, Nora, was an office assistant. For years, the children assumed that their parents were happily married, but it would be later revealed that they were, in fact, actually not married at all because Burt had never divorced his first wife, Louisa.

Oh.

So they kind of were. Like, they functioned as a married couple, but they couldn't be married.

On paper, at least they were happy.

Yeah, it sounds like they were pretty happy. Burt did his best to provide for his family, but a long period of economic depression had done a lot of damage to New Zealand's middle class, and Burt was one of many who struggled to make any kind of headway leveling up at all.

Yeah. Like, it's.

It was a cycle. Rosemary Davidson, whose family lived next door, recalled the Parkers being a shabby and shambolic house with an air of poverty.

Oh.

Which, like, that's, like, heartbreaking. You're snooty. An air of poverty.

Yeah, that's snooty. You're snooty tooty.

You're a snooty tooty, Judy. Yeah, Rosemary.

Rosemary.

Okay. But it sounds like they were happy enough.

Yeah.

They didn't have money for luxuries. They didn't have, like, much to do extra. But it sounds like the Parker's at least, like, the parents had a small group of friends. They were relatively social. They were well liked amongst their neighbors.

Except Rosemary.

Except Rosemary. Yeah. Rosemary smelled like poverty. But Pauline struggled to make friends. Same old Rosemary Davidson.

Rosemary's got a lot to say.

She really does. She did recall, though, being afraid of Pauline when they were children. She said Pauline had a filthy temper.

A filthy temper.

And would yell and scream if she didn't get her own way.

Okay.

Which, like, sounds like facts.

Wow.

But at home, things were different. Pauline had a close relationship with her parents. She got along well with her siblings. Her father recalled. If she ever did anything wrong, she would always say she was sorry, she knew she was wrong and that she'd try to do better.

I mean, that's all you can ask. That's literally.

Literally. Burt Parker's memory of Pauline's childhood is obviously colored by a father's love for his daughter and maybe the passage of time. Yes, because he remembers Pauline as a happy, well mannered girl. But others had a decidedly different impression of her. According to Peter Graham, when Pauline entered the girls high school in the winter of 1952, she was, quote, angry and rebellious, felt different from the other girls, resisted discipline, and spoke sarcastically to the teachers.

I do wonder, though, and I. I'm not saying anybody's lying here, anybody's being disingenuous. I do always wonder in every case, when somebody talks about somebody, what they were like after finding out something horrible that they did, if it suddenly is like a confirmation bias kind of thing where you're like, well, she acted like that. You know what I mean? Like, if it seems like it's more prevalent than it actually is.

Yeah, I could definitely see it.

And again, I'm not saying that's the case here. It's something I always think of in these cases. And this just happens to be one of those moments where I'm like, huh? You wonder.

Yeah, you do. And I think a lot of times, too, like, even now, when things come out, people just want to be part of the story.

Yeah.

So they'll tell you what you want to hear.

And again, written, not saying it about this one. I'm just. It just happened to make me think of it.

It sounds like Pauline was pretty well adjusted at home, but it does sound like there's, like, multiple accounts.

She was wily outside of school.

She was wily in.

In school or outside of home. I mean, yeah, yeah.

But this would all change, I guess, when she met Juliet Hume a short time after she started at the school. Like Pauline, Juliet was something of an outcast at school. She had an iq of 170.

Whoa.

So she was exceedingly intelligent, she was confident, and she seemed to have little interest in forming relationships with the other girls at school. She felt like their interests were trivial and juvenile. She was kind of above it.

Yeah.

So instead, she spent a lot of her time fantasizing and coming up with ideas for stories that she hoped to write someday.

That's nice.

Yeah. She told herself and the other girls, who were pretty much as uninterested in her as she was in them, that they weren't worth her time. Wow. Yeah. It's entirely likely that Juliet would have ignored Pauline just like the other girls, but they happened to meet because they were the only students exempted from gym class. Pauline, because of her leg, and Juliet, because of some of her pulmonary conditions.

Oh, yeah. Cause she had pneumonia and.

Yeah, bronchitis, like, multiple times.

Yeah.

So as the only two not participating, they naturally got to talking, found that they had a lot in common, and became fast friends. Juliet maybe recognized something of herself in Pauline. She was a loner. She seemed willfully and sometimes even happily defiant of authority. And Pauline probably admired Juliet's intelligence, beauty, and obvious creativity. And while the other girls seemed interested in ordinary culture, Pauline had also developed an interest in poetry, literature, and the other more adult interests that Juliet had developed. So they kind of. It kind of sounds, at least at this point, like, obviously, later on, more things happen, but at this point, it almost sounds like they're like two old souls that don't really relate to people their age.

No, it does sound like that, actually.

But they find that in each other.

Yeah.

And most importantly, they also bonded over their history of childhood illness. Like, not a lot of people know what that's like.

Yeah. And especially at the time, going through it is. I mean, childhood illness is always something, you know, horrifying and traumatic. And it's like, back then, it was. It was a totally different story because there wasn't even the comforts that we have now.

Yeah. So, like, she was going through. I think it was. Pauline was going through what was going on with her leg before they even had antibiotics.

Yeah.

You know, so that's a different story.

Wild.

And like Juliet, Pauline's history of physical trauma and isolation at such an early age was something like we were just saying the other kids just didn't understand. So in Juliet, she finally found somebody who understood the serious effects that such an intense experience can have on a person. Years later, Hilda Hume would recall Juliet returning home from school one afternoon and enthusiastically announcing, mummy, I've met someone at last with a will as strong as my own.

I actually love that.

Yeah. In the beginning, it's cool. You're like, I know.

I'm like, this is nice.

Glad you found each other now.

Oh, no, you won't be soon. Uh oh.

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It's by Patrick Rothfuss. It is read by Nick Podell. And it is. I just got to like, the most heartbreaking part of the story. Nick's narration is beautiful, and I have chills even just thinking about it. You guys really need to listen to this title as an audible member. Also, you can choose one title a month to keep from the entire catalog, including the latest bestsellers and new releases. New members can try audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com morbid or text morbid to 500. 500. That's audible.com morbid. Or text morbid to 500. 500 to try audible free for 30 days. Audible.com morbid. The narrative of Pauline and Juliet's relationship tends to portray their friendship as one of equals. But there was probably some part of Juliet that knew she had the upper hand, if you will. She obviously enjoyed having somebody she could share her world with and pass the time with. But at the same time, she also wasn't desperate for social connection. She was the one who was happy to be on her own.

Yeah.

Didn't really need anybody. Pauline, on the other hand, was frustrated, and she was lonely. And she saw in Juliet everything she wanted in a friend. So, simply put, Pauline needed and wanted Juliet more than Juliet wanted or needed her. And that fact was definitely not lost on Juliet, and neither was the power that such a position gave her over Pauline.

And this is a kid who never had control or power over anything. Over anything.

She was just shuffled around, shuffled around, sent away, moved from home to home.

You know, told. Told that her defiance and her demanding, quote unquote, nature was a negative. We're negative.

Negative quality. Yup.

Which is not good.

Yeah.

It's like, you got to try to spin those qualities into something positive with a kid. You can't tell them they're bad qualities. That's what they're gonna live. They're gonna. They're gonna validate that on their own. And it's like this is her finally seeing a way where she can take control of a situation and have it.

And, boy, did she.

Oh, boy. And again, I don't know the details. I know it's a very brief overview.

Boy, did the both of them. They fed off of each other. Like I said, it's a very folly ado thing.

Seems that way.

Yeah. Before long, Juliet and Pauline were completely immersed in each other's worlds. They spent almost all of their time together coming up with elaborate stories and fantasies. They rode horses. They dressed up to perform plays where Juliet was almost always the star. And as it seemed fine, like, it just seemed like they formed this bond, and they became best friends who did everything together. Like, I think we've all had a relationship, or most of us have, where you meet this best friend and you start devoting all your time to them.

Yeah, absolutely.

But it got to a point where it got to be too much.

Yeah.

As the months went on, they seemed to be completely wrapped up in each other. And as the nights became warmer, Pauline would sneak out of her house at night and ride her bike to Juliet's house, where they would steal wine and food from the kitchen and sneak off to have moonlight picnics or head to the beach, which still very, like, very relatable to a sense, like, oh, like, I'm gonna sneak out and hang out with my best friend.

Yeah. But I feel like everybody's been there.

Everybody's been there. But as one year passed into the next, the girls seemed to shut out the world around them, preferring instead to live in a fantasy of their own making, just barely attending their few real world responsibilities, like schoolwork.

They were.

Everything was falling by the wayside.

There needs to be a balance.

Yes.

It's okay to be, you know, you're creative. You're, you know, and you like fantasy. You like, you know, that kind of stuff. That's fine. There just. There always needs to be a balance.

Yeah. It can't sweep you away.

One thing can't take over everything.

Yeah. And that's what happened here. And the older they got, the more their fantasies came to include adult concepts that they maybe weren't ready to fully process and. Yeah. Dive into.

Yeah.

Their dramas and stories were still those of an adolescent, but as Louise Chun wrote, their characters regularly slaughtered and raped their way across the girl's imagination in increasingly blood soaked adventures.

I wasn't ready for what you just said.

Yeah. I don't think many people would be.

You what? Like, you what? That escalated very quickly.

They started. They. Because they would write these. These, like, stories back and forth, and they damn. Got very dark in nature very quickly, as you can see.

Evidently.

Yeah. And a lot of them had very highly sexual themes, but, like. Like I just said, like, featuring rape.

Yeah.

That kind of thing. Like, it got. It got dark.

Yeah.

And if it was just coming up with stories, that's one thing.

Yeah.

But I think at the age that they were at, it was concerning.

Yeah.

And would be like.

And with the way they were pulled away from reality and the way they were, you know, it was. It sounds like it's becoming an us against the world kind of.

Yes.

Relationship. And whenever it's a you and me baby against the world. That's. That's fucked. And it's gonna crash and burn in some way, and it's not gonna be good.

That always reminds me of Rob zombie. We're in a crash and burn.

That's literally what happens.

And that is what happens.

Oh, boy.

But Juliet and Pauline's stories weren't the only place that they explored romantic or sexual themes. Like a lot of girls their age, they both loved cinema, and they had a particular fondness for popular male stars at the time, like Mario Lanza, James Mason, and Orson Welles after they were both arrested. So we see where this is going to am.

Well, yeah.

And throughout what would become their trial, the press, and particularly the tabloids, made a lot of their sexuality, eventually going as far to imply that they were having a lesbian relationship, which, if they were, whatever.

I was just gonna say, why would that have anything to do with it?

No one really knows. But the time.

Oh, of course.

It was horrible. Chen points out their experimentation was probably no more than what many teenage girls get up to. They sometimes slept in the same bed. They hugged each other when they were excited. One night, they practiced making love the way their idols would. So definitely teetered over, because, like, I was gonna.

That last one, I'm like, okay. Yeah, okay.

I don't know any other teenage girls experiences except the ones that I had with my friends. And we did not practice making love.

I can tell you that. We also did not.

Yeah. Like, we hugged each other when we got excited.

We slept in the same bed, like.

For sure, very platonically, but we did not practice making love.

No.

I don't know if that's somebody else's.

Experience, but you know what? That's. You know, it's none of my business.

Yeah, whatever. But years later, when asked for a comment on Juliet and Pauline's supposed sexual relationship, one classmate acknowledged the intimacy and told a reporter it was considered normal for girls to have crushes on each other. It was part of life at a single sex school.

That makes sense.

Which. It does make sense.

Yeah.

You take the opposite sex out of the equation. You're in the middle of puberty, you're developing these feelings like you're gonna direct them at someone, you know?

Yeah. And I always think, like, you know, especially, like, girls, I feel like, are so much more, like, can appreciate the beauty of another woman, you know? You know what I mean? I feel like that's just such a more fluid situation. So you put them in an all girls school. It's. Of course that's gonna happen.

Bound up. Yeah, I agree. But while they might not have been in a romantic or sexual relationship, by their third year in school, Juliet and Pauline were certainly enmeshed in one another's lives to the exclusion of almost everything and everyone around them.

See, that's. That's where the problem comes. It's the US against the world, baby.

And that's exactly what it is. Pauline wrote in her diary, which her diary becomes a big subject of this case. We have decided how sad it is for other people that they cannot appreciate our genius.

That's pretty hilarious.

Elena and I have that conversation. I was just gonna say that's pretty hilarious.

But in that kind of shit is just like that. If nothing else had happened, that would just be, like, funny to look back on and be like, look at us.

Just being like, fuck everyone with no context whatsoever. You'd be like, oh, wow, what a hot shit.

You'd be like, that's hilarious. And not for you, with your confidence, but like, yeah, yeah.

And I feel like that goes back to what you were saying about, like, when people are interviewed later on.

Yeah.

And they have that kind of bias of something happening. Yes.

It changes how you look at things.

It's context. All of it is context.

Absolutely.

Because now you read that, you're like, oh, not good.

That's. That's leading to something bad. But without the context, like, I don't have all the details. I know something bad happens, though, so I can at least go off of that and say, like, uh, oh, yeah, that's not good. But if you don't know what the hell happens later. And you're just thinking, this is a tale of two, which you're not on morbid to do that, but you're just thinking, this is a tale of two women who, like, you know, go conquer the world together.

Yeah.

You're like, wow, look at you. You like. You badass little confident bitches just sitting there being like, nobody appreciates our genius. How sad for them.

Exactly.

Interesting.

But then we. We keep.

We keep on going, keep on spiraling down the well. We sure do.

So while they saw their own relationship in increasingly romantic and grandiose terms, the girls stories were becoming more, like, negative and violent, especially when it came to their imagined relations with others. Peter Graham wrote as early as March of 1953, Pauline was writing about highway robberies and often more than one violent death a day.

I mean, that's a lot. Yeah, that's a lot. As somebody who writes about murder for a living, that's a lot.

And that's the thing. Like, that's your literal job.

That's my job, and that's my job.

But we don't write about more than one in a day.

No.

And it's true stories that we're writing.

Well, I'm talking about I make them up.

Oh.

Like, I actually make it up for my other job. Like, I have to do them. The fantasizing and the creative writing portion of it. And even that's a lot.

Well, and also your brain is fully developed, so it's not having the impact on you necessarily that it would have on a teenage girl.

And it's having healthy relationships and healthy bonds with other people.

Yes. And healthy outlets and the ability to walk away from that for a couple days if it becomes too much to.

Separate that world, that fantasy world from reality.

Yes.

And that's where the issue is coming in here. It seems like that all she could think about.

Yeah.

And that's where it becomes unhealthy.

And they were living in these fantasies. Like, at points, they would literally meditate into these worlds that they created.

Wow.

Yeah.

That's interesting.

Which is if the world that they were coming up with was less violent.

Yeah. Just lovely. And something that could calm them or make them feel at peace somehow or. Yeah, then that's lovely.

But it wasn't really that.

Yeah, it seems like this was. Seems like there's just a lot of. A lot of darkness around them. A lot of, like, there's not. They're not having any positive relationships or any. Because even their relationship doesn't seem positive. It seems very entrenched in a power dynamic that isn't exactly balanced and isn't healthy at all. And it's like, if they had these, like, you know, I don't know, it just seems like there's a lot of. There's a lot of, like, knives held in the air that I just feel are just gonna all come crashing down.

Yeah. Yeah. So for the first couple years of their relationship, like we were just saying, there was that power dynamic. Juliet always had the upper hand, knowing that Pauline was more dependent on her than she was on Pauline. But over the course of 1953, as Juliet's life became more and more tumultuous, the imbalance of power started to even out a little bit, in addition to a serious hospitalization for what turned out to be tuberculosis.

Wow. She's really struggling with pulmonary stuff.

She is, yeah. Juliet's relationship at the time, also with her parents, got even more strained, so she turned to Pauline and their rich fantasy life as her only source of social or emotional support.

Damn.

And when you're hospitalized, like, they would write letters to each other while she was in the hospital. But that was it. All she had was her parents, and.

Their relationship was not.

They didn't have a good relationship.

Comforting. Which is sad.

Yeah. So the more Juliet pushed her parents away, the closer she drew Pauline. Unaware that while she had been in the hospital, Pauline had started dating a local boy named Nicholas. Oh, of course, with Juliet and Pauline being so close, it was only a matter of time before Juliet found out about Nicholas, which she did in the fall of 1953. It's unclear what transpired exactly between them when Juliet found out of what she viewed as her competition. But in late October, Pauline told Nicholas she was, quote, no longer very much in love with him. And it was, quote, better if they discontinued seeing one another. As Graham put it, it was as if she felt her affair with Nicholas had been an act of disloyalty to Juliet, and by getting rid of him, she had returned their relationship to its rightful place as her primary concern.

We've now ventured into completely and utterly unhealthy. Yeah, not okay.

We were teetering before. Now we're fully in that realm.

We're entrenched in unhealthy shit right here.

Yeah. And Pauline's relationship with Nicholas was the first real test of loyalty that the girl's relationship had faced. And given how quickly and easily she dumped the boy that she had so recently claimed to love, it's clear that neither Juliet nor Pauline was willing to tolerate any threat to their relationship.

Damn.

And I say threat because that's how they viewed it.

Like, quote unquote. Threat.

Quote unquote. Exactly. So while most people really paid little attention, like, at school, to Paul, Pauline and Juliet's relationship, the people who were familiar with them, like, a little more close to their circle or their two person circle, couldn't help but notice that they had an unusual, and, to some, unhealthy attachment to one another. In late 1952, a lot of their classmates had started to notice the intensity of their bond, but most considered it normal because of the dynamics of going to an all girls school. Classmate Jan Sutherland recalled, you were allowed to have a special friend as long as it was kept within bonds, or, I think, bounds. Excuse me.

There's a lot happening that I don't understand.

There's a lot.

There's a lot of dynamics and, like, systems in place here that I have never been a part of. Like, all girls school and, like, in this, in the fifties, you know what I mean, like that, I'm like, wow, it's interesting. I didn't know about any of this.

I feel like it would make a really good, like, obviously heavenly creatures as a movie, but great movie. I feel like the concept of just like all the dynamics at an all girls school. I'm sure. I mean, I'm sure it's, I'm sure like a million times.

Yeah.

But like, you know what I mean?

Yeah, no, it's an interesting and probably kind of heartbreaking at times. I'm sure.

Yeah.

Because we don't know any of the ins and outs of this logistics. Yeah.

But while other girls thought little of Juliet and Pauline's relationship, the school's headmistress, Miss Stewart, had concerns that their friendship might be headed in an unnatural direction.

Oh, I see what you're saying. Fifties headmistress over there, she was like.

I think they might be lesbians. We don't quote unquote exactly. Eventually, she ended up calling a meeting with Juliet's mother, Hilda, to discuss her belief that Juliet and Pauline's friendship, quote, might be going beyond normal, healthy friendship, which.

That saying that. Yeah, like, I can, I can understand that one. Like, their bond is unhealthy and I.

Don'T know, she might have meant unnatural to her. Maybe she did as like, this is simply not healthy.

Yeah. Regardless of what, whether they are in a relationship that is romantic or platonic or somewhere in the middle, doesn't really matter.

Right.

No matter where it sits on the spectrum here, it's unhealthy because of the way they are, like, reacting to the.

World around them and the direction in which it's headed. It's only going to get worse, like. So let's nip this in the blood.

That makes sense.

So she might have meant that.

Yeah.

There were a lot of people at the time who also were like, they were lesbians and that wasn't. Okay, so nobody. Who's to say, you know, but not one to over parent her children. Juliet's mother made it clear to Miss Stewart in no uncertain times that she was neither interested in nor prepared to interfere with her daughter's friendships, particularly since she at that time, saw nothing wrong with Juliet and Pauline's relationship.

Okay, I bet you did.

Hindsight.

Yeah.

So Juliet's mom might not have seen anything wrong with the unusually intense bond between the girls, but Juliet's father was another matter entirely. Remember, he's a physicist, he's a smart fucking.

Yeah.

In December of 1953, doctor Hume consulted with his colleague, Doctor Francis Bennett, a psychiatrist whom he asked to evaluate Pauline. Wait. Yes.

Juliet's dad.

Yes.

Asked, who is it? Is evaluate having his friend evaluate Pauline?

Yes.

His daughter's friend.

Yep.

Okay.

Yep.

Was there consent here?

Like, what the f. It sounds like there was consent.

Call up her parents real quick.

I think.

I think.

I think her parents were like, yeah, sure.

Weird.

But it's strange. I know I did. When I was looking at that, I was like, wait, did I have this wrong?

No, no, it's really Pauline. Wow.

Yeah.

Okay.

When asked about this several years later, Hilda Hume said, I had noticed Miss Parker was concerned about misses. Parker was concerned about that friendship. She sought medical advice, largely at my suggestion and my husband's.

Okay.

So they talked about it, and it seemed like that Pauline's mom had more concerns than Juliet's parents. So I don't know if they assumed that maybe Pauline was the one who was too immersed in this, that they were having.

Okay.

They were like, we're not really seeing any issue with Juliet, but. So maybe Pauline is the problem.

Wow.

Yeah. And her own mom was like, yeah, I think this relationship is a little much like, I think what should have.

Happened is these parents should have got together. I mean, like, what are our concerns here?

Yeah.

And then maybe talk to both the girls. Yeah, but I'm not here. I'm not in the fifties.

That's how I would have done it, I think. But according to Doctor Benedict, it was doctor Hume who was, quote, worried over what he regarded as an unhealthy association and wanted me to see Pauline from a psychiatric point of view.

Oh, so it was Doctor Hume.

Yeah.

Who was the one that was like, go take a peek at Pauline that you're not her father.

That's according to his friend. But then, according to Hilda, she's like, well, misses Parker also thought it was a problem, so all of us came together, and, like, what's wrong with Pauline was the problem. I mean, I'm more inclined to believe the doctor here.

Yeah.

His name is on this. Who knows? So, during Benedict's evaluation, Pauline was overall pretty uncooperative and resistant to questions. But she did say she was mostly unhappy.

Oh.

And when he suggested she should widen her circle of friends, she insisted she didn't really care much for other girls and thought they were quote unquote silly.

And it's like, okay, but sometimes silly's fun.

Yeah.

You know, you need a little fun in your life.

Live in the silly.

Everything doesn't need to be serious.

Yeah, but she said, besides, she had Juliet. She didn't need anybody else?

Uh oh. That's a ding ding ding.

There it is. Despite her providing very limited information and just giving, like, pretty sparse responses, Benedict concluded that Pauline was, quote unquote strange.

I mean.

Okay, my diagnosis is you're fucking strange.

Yeah, same.

And here it is. He told Nora Parker, Pauline's mother, that there was a, quote, homosexual attachment between her daughter and Juliet Hume.

Oh.

Which, of course, at the time, would have been. Put everybody into such a fucking tizzy.

And I like how it was, like, the psychiatric evaluation that was, like, my other diagnosis is.

It's like, homosexual. It's like. Okay, yeah, I don't understand.

But I don't think that's our biggest problem here. I think it's the actual too intense bond that's happening right now. Shutting out of reality. That's the problem. Focus on that.

Exactly. But the surprise evaluation did little to mend the increasingly fractured relationship between Pauline and her mother. Because at this point, even Pauline and her mom are having problems. And I think that's. I just said. I meant I'm inclined to believe the doctor, but it does sound like Nora Parker had her.

Yeah.

Her concerns.

I'm sure she did. I mean, I don't know how any parent couldn't.

And especially because, like I said, Pauline seemed to be more affected even at.

Home at this point.

But despite Burt Parker's insistence that his daughter had been perfectly normal before she'd met Juliet, the fact was, there had never been a really strong bond between Pauline and her mother.

Huh.

Yeah.

That's the same with Juliet.

The relationships between mothers and daughters in this story.

Very interesting.

Is very interesting. Like, huh.

So I'm sure they bonded over that.

They did. Big time.

Yeah.

Most people recognized that Nora Parker meant well, but like Hilda Hume, motherhood did not come naturally to her.

Interesting.

She was a very stern woman who was quick to anger, and Pauline almost constantly irritated her mother without meaning to. In fact, Pauline's fractured relationship with her mother, like we were just saying, was among the things that she and Juliet had bonded over.

Yeah.

When they first met, according to her, and this is really sad, according to Pauline, her mother, quote, didn't understand her and didn't love her.

Oh, that's heartbreaking.

Yeah.

That's awful.

And a lot of times, their arguments ended with physical punishment.

Oh, boy.

Yeah. So Pauline's claims of abuse and pretty much neglect are a testament to how far she and her mother's relationship had already even deteriorated by the time she even reached high school.

That was already a problem.

There was already an issue there. And then her attachment to Juliet made things even worse.

You gotta try to be good parents, everybody. It's an important job.

Of course it is. By 1954, though, Pauline's relationship with her mother wasn't the only familial bond that was in danger of falling apart. In late 1953, while working at the marriage guidance council, Juliet's mother, Hilda, met a canadian immigrant named Bill Perry. Bill had sought services from the council because his marriage was falling apart. And while her initial intentions may have been to help him repair his marriage, the relationship between Bill and Hilda soon became flirtatious.

Shut up.

And in no time at all, their relationship had escalated from a fling to something far more serious. And in early 1954, Bill ended up leaving his wife and moving into an apartment literally adjacent to the Humes family house.

You're okay. Okay? Your child is going through something that's concerning to everybody.

Well, nobody was concerned with Julie. The headmistress was concerned, and, like, some of the classmates were concerned, but his parents seem concerned. Pauline's parents seemed concerned about her. Her.

Yeah.

Not necessarily Juliet, but, like, as a whole. But there's an issue.

Relationship is a problem. Like, there's a problem here.

Yeah.

And even she's retreated into herself.

Even Henry. The father.

Yeah, the father seems to be a little concerned here.

Moderately, at least.

And it's like, what's going on? Like, why are we adding more?

Well, to this. Paul does not really want to fuss over children.

That's true.

Children should learn their fucking place. As far as she's concerned.

Babies should learn their place. Yeah, that's babies should.

Babies. Children. But all the.

Like, why would you add more into this chaos?

It sounds to me like she was a woman who was very concerned with her own needs.

Yeah, it does seem that way and.

Not anyone else's, because, I mean, she doesn't even give a fuck about her husband in this scenario.

Damn. It just seems. I'm like, wow, what a choice. What a time to be alive.

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This next part will just solidify the statement I just made. If she really seemed only concerned with her own shit. According to Hilda's own friend, Nancy Sutherland, Hilda had cheated on her husband many times before Bill, and he was just one of Hilda's lovers.

Oh, okay. Yeah, all right.

So with her husband consumed by his work and rarely at home, Hilda seemed to be less vigilant than she should have been when it came to her affair with Bill. And in no time at all, Juliet and Pauline had picked up on the relationship, probably because he fucking lived adjacent to their house.

Well, and that's gonna fuck you up.

Yeah. But rather than seeing it as the inevitable end to her parents marriage, Juliet instead saw it as a potential financial opportunity.

Stop it.

By mid 1954. I'm just laughing because it's just like, what the fuck?

This is so uncomfortable. Like, this is uncomfortable and bizarre because it's just like. It just keeps getting more chaotic.

The layers.

Yeah.

By mid 1954, the girls fantasies had begun to center around running away together, something that would require money and a good amount of it. So they hatched a scheme where they would catch Bill and Hilda in their affair and blackmail them, thus gaining the funds needed to run away together.

That's such a detachment from reality. From reality and such a detachment from your mother.

As a mother, you're just seeing her as, like, an opportunity to get to where you need to go.

She's fucking up. So let's. There's so much like the bond between.

Mother and daughter in both of these girls. Like Pauline spawned with her mom and Juliette Bond with her mom are not the typical bond between mother and daughter.

Yeah, there's a lot of coldness here.

There's detachment on both sides big time.

Like, between mother and daughter and between daughter and mother. Yes, it's from both sides. Like, one has created the other, and it's just.

Well, and I think a lot of times, and obviously we're not going to get too far into it, but like we said, punishment at this time was physical. That creates trust issues.

Yeah, absolutely.

That's just the fact of the matter.

Yeah. It just is biology. It just is.

And so I think that can lead to the detachment.

Mm hmm.

Of, like, I don't trust you. You're gonna hurt me.

Yeah. Cuz in the fifties, shit was wily. Like, punishments were not normal punishment.

People, like, kids were literally getting hit with belts and stuff, like getting the.

Shit kicked out of them. Like, it was like, this was not. It was just bounds of anything.

Right.

So. Yeah. And physical to, you know, that's just the way it is.

So I think those bonds were just damaged at a really early age. And, I mean, punishment aside, Juliet was sent to live with other family members all the time.

She was separated from her parents in.

Really early developmental years. So I don't really think Juliet ever formed a typical bond with her mom. And then Pauline, I think, is more the result of the. The punishment style.

Yeah. And I think. And they both say that they never really took to motherhood.

Right.

Like, that wasn't something they were comfortable with, and it just wasn't. They weren't really nurturing, which is something a kid needs.

And it's sad ultimately, because at the same time, back then, you didn't really get the option to choose whether or not you wanted to be a mother.

Yeah. So it was just like, that's what, you know, it was the kid who really suffers for it.

Right. Mm hmm. It's just very sad overall.

It's all very sad.

So Juliet and Pauline's plan to blackmail Juliet's mother and run away together was obviously somewhat childish in the whole running away sense, and thinking that they would be able to. And even though Juliet actually did catch the two of them in bed together, she never got a chance to blackmail her mom or bill.

Wow. That's all fucked up.

Yeah. In May of 1954, after their blackmail scheme and Hilda Hume's affair had been exposed, Hilda and Henry called both girls to the kitchen one afternoon for a discussion, because they were also always at each other's houses, of course. Particularly Pauline was always at Juliet's house. It was then they learned that not only were Juliet's parents going to separate, but also that there had been some problems at the university, and Henry had actually resigned from his position. So without employment and unlikely to stay married, there was no reason for the Humes to remain in New Zealand because. Because, remember, they had only moved there because of a job opportunity.

Yeah.

And nothing's really tethering them there. So they tentatively decided to return to England in the coming months.

Oh, wow.

Juliet's family. The news was obviously upsetting for Juliet and Pauline, but it's unclear whether they truly understood what it meant for their friendship. By that point, they had been completely wrapped up in this grandiose fantasy world where they believed, among other things, that they were telepathic and had an unbreakable bond and received an assurance from Juliet's father that they would not be separated. In their minds, he had made a promise to them that he wouldn't separate them, but that never actually happened.

Yeah.

It was delusion.

I was gonna say, there's a lot of Delulu happening.

Yeah. And none of it's gonna come, truly.

No.

Pauline wrote in her diary in early May, doctor Hume really is to be relied upon. So she, like she had a legit, really believed it. What exactly he promised them is unknown, but it seems pretty unlikely Doctor Hume would have made any kind of promise under the circumstances, especially when you think of the fact that he was the one that wanted Pauline evaluated.

Yeah, that's the thing. Yeah. I don't know that happening.

I don't know, if it was, like, a thing where the conversation kind of got, like, heated, and he was like, we'll do our best to keep you guys together. Like.

Like, he said something that could, in their very delusional, very fantastical, very desperate world, look to them. Like, any suggestion of a promise, you know, like, anything they could twist into one.

And it could have been that. That he said something, like, very small, that they twisted, or it could have been that in their minds, they were so detached from reality that they just believed he promised them something that he.

Never promised, he never did.

Like, didn't even say anything even close to a promise.

Yeah, I could see that.

So by early June, Henry Hume had formally resigned from his position, and it was announced that he had accepted a new position in England. So the family had a move coming in their future. It turned out that he actually hadn't accepted a new position. But the second part was true. He was to return to England alongside his soon to be ex wife. However, they decided, under the circumstances, it would be best if Juliet went to live with Henry's sister in South Africa. Oh, like, okay.

Okay.

Given her precarious health and the fact that his sister Ina ran a girls boarding school, sending Juliet there seemed a better alternative than returning to London for her. They didn't think it was, like, a good place for her to be. So the news was obviously a devastating blow to both girls, but they resolved to stay together and decided that Pauline would simply go to South Africa with Juliet. Oh, yeah, obviously. I'll just. Obviously, my family will let me move away and go to your aunt's place with you. Definitely.

Definitely.

But in their mind, the Humes had always welcomed Pauline into their home. They'd even taken her on vacations at this point, so it seemed entirely reasonable that they would allow her to accompany their daughter to her new temporary home.

Yeah.

Of course, overnight stays and vacations were one thing, but this was something entirely different. And Pauline's mom was like, you're not moving to South Africa with your friend Pauline. Like, yeah, you're in high school. No.

What are you doing?

What?

No.

The decision that Juliet would be leaving without Pauline came as a shock, but the girls remained committed to staying together and had already come up with a backup plan that would allow them to stay together forever.

Oh, my.

Pauline wrote in her diary in late June, our main idea for the day was to murder mother. This notion was not a new one, but this time, it is a definite plan, which we intend to carry out. We have worked it out carefully and are both thrilled by the idea. Naturally, we feel a trifle nervous, but the pleasure of anticipation is great. I shall not write this plan down, as I shall write it out when we carry it out. Wow, that escalated.

That went from zero to 100, and.

I stopped in the middle of that sentence because you feel like it escalated so quickly. But there is years and years of just wild attachment styles going on between these two girls and some people trying to get in the mix there and try to, you know, figure this out and rectify this, but, wow, the damage had been done.

That's unbelievable.

And that's the thing. Like, you feel like it goes to zero to 100, but it hit every number along the way.

No, it's true. It did. It's just, I think what's bothering me the most is the callousness with which this is.

Oh, the callousness is being said, and I think it comes from the. I mean, and this is just me, like, theorizing, but I feel like it comes from the fact that they were just so detached from the regular world that she was like, yeah, we'll kill my mom, and then we'll just go to that world.

Yeah.

It almost seemed like that was a real, tangible place for them to go to.

Yeah.

In her mind, I don't know if she thought, like, we can run away.

To that world that I think I could absolutely see, you know, their reality. It's a fake reality.

It's like, you can't.

And I just. I was looking up the. The diary things, and they spelled murder. Moiter.

Moiter? Yeah.

I was like, was. Was that on purpose? Why'd you do that?

I think it's actually british.

Is it?

It's like, a british thing, Moiter.

Oh, really?

I didn't know that, because I googled it really quickly, and I was like, just like, does she mean something else?

Yeah, she doesn't mean it's murder, because I. When I see that, I think, like, Moita.

Moita Henry. I know. So the next day, June 20, Pauline spent the day with her family. Years later, her father, Burt recalled, she seemed much brighter in the house than she had before. She was much nicer to us than she had been for a long time.

Oh, that's awful.

Two days later, Pauline and Juliet would brutally murder Nora, Pauline's mother.

Holy shit.

Yeah. Later, after the arrest and the trials, many people would theorize that they had conspired to kill Nora Parker in the misguided belief that if she were out of the picture, Pauline would then be allowed to join Juliet in South Africa. It's pretty likely that this was the catalyst for the murder. But at the same time, Pauline had hated her mom for a long time and had fantasized for a long time about killing her. Eek. Peter Graham wrote, pauline would never forget the unhappiness of her childhood and seemed to blame most of that unhappiness on her mother.

Oh, boy.

So on the morning of June 22, 1954, Pauline woke up and wrote in her diary, the day of the happy event.

Oh, my God.

And referred to her mood as, and this is a quote, the night before Christmas ish.

Wow.

About murdering her own mom.

Wow.

That afternoon, Juliet left her house to meet Pauline, grabbing a broken brick off the ground from the side of the house and putting it in her bag as she walked. At Pauline's house, they both sat down and enjoyed lunch with Nora. She prepared them a nice little lunch, and they all ate together. After lunch, they went upstairs to Pauline's room, where Juliet slipped the half brick into one of Pauline's old stockings. And then they tied a knot around the ankle to keep the brick in place and then stuffed it into Pauline's bag. After they'd eaten and readied their murder weapon, Juliet, Pauline, and Nora all set off for a walk through the woods. Nora just wanted to go on a walk with them. Pauline took the lead as they walked, with her mother in the middle and Juliet behind her. After some time, the vegetation started getting more dense and muddy and difficult to manage. They weren't going for a hike, so Nora suggested, like, let's turn around. Let's head back. The girls tried to convince her to continue on, but she was like, no, I don't want to go any further. Let's go back to the house.

So this time, it was Pauline who was in the rear as they turned around, walking behind her mother fumbling with the buckle on her bag. At one point, Nora stopped along the trail and bent down to look at something on the ground. And that was when Pauline came up fast behind her and swung the brick as hard as she could, striking her mom in the back of the head with it.

Whoa.

So Nora got knocked to the ground, and she covered her head in pain and confusion, and Pauline just swung the brick over and over again until Juliet appeared and took the makeshift weapon from her and then took her own turns hitting Nora.

Holy shit.

Eventually, the brick broke free from the stocking and fell to the ground near Nora's almost lifeless body. And sensing that the woman was almost dead, Juliet kneeled beside her and grabbed her by the throat to hold her head in place while Pauline took up the brick again and started bashing her mom in the head repeatedly until she ran out of energy.

Oh, my God.

Like, that is frenzied.

I was gonna say the frenzy. Holy shit.

Although still not dead, it was clear to both girls that Nora wouldn't survive without immediate medical attention. So they tried to drag her into the brush, but they had underestimated the. The fact that she was gonna be dead weight. Oh, yeah, obviously. And they were only able to drag her a few inches before she was too heavy. With Nora rasping and choking on blood in the bushes, they ran off in the direction of town to carry out the next phase of their scheme.

The fuck is the next phase?

We'll get there. But later, when the autopsy was completed, the pathologist counted 45 external injuries.

Holy shit.

Including 24 lacerations to the head and face that had penetrated to the bone and extensive fractures of Nora's face. Nearly all of the blunt force injuries to her head were serious.

Wow.

And the pathologist wrote in his report, it would not take many of them, only a few, to produce unconsciousness. Wow. So this was complete overkill.

Yeah.

When they reached town, Juliet and Pauline went into the nearest business, an ice cream parlor.

They had to. Were they, like, covered in blood? I imagine you would think. Like, you would think they would be.

You would absolutely think. And that's where the owners, Agnes Richie and her husband, contacted the police. In the meantime, Agnes's husband and another man ran out to the spot where the girl said they left Nora, hoping that they might be able to help. When they reached the spot where the woman lay in the brush, Kenneth immediately felt that something wasn't right.

Yeah, cuz, what the fuck did they tell them?

They said that Nora had slipped and fallen on the trail and hit her.

Head on a rock 45 times.

45 times. This woman appeared to have been viciously beaten.

Yeah.

And they had left the broken brick beside her body that was covered in her hair and blood.

Holy shit.

It was brutal. And I'm like, you guys really, like, you guys are creative writers.

That's how it was gonna work.

Believe that she had fallen 45 times.

I mean, come on.

The delugloo.

Damn.

Now it was dark by the time investigators made their way down to the wooded area where Nora was still lying, and they had to work by flashlight. But even under those circumstances, it was very clear to everybody what had happened to Nora. It was no accident. No, she hadn't just fallen and hit her head on a rock. She'd been brutally bludgeoned brutally, presumably, with that bloody brick by her side. So she also had multiple defensive wounds that suggested she fought hard. And this is so gnarly. One of them was a broken finger on her left hand that was hanging on by a small piece of flesh.

Oh, my God.

That's how hard that is. Yeah. Oh, yeah. One of the detectives told a journalist the deceased had been attacked with an animal ferocity seldom seen in the most brutal of murders.

Holy shit.

As several officers and pathologists worked to process the scene, detectives were dispatched to the Hume house, where the girls had been taken immediately following the report.

Wow. Just the brutality of that is like, that's some anger.

That's lovely. And for Juliet to have taken part in that and, like, that's not even.

That's a lot of. That's two very angry, very fucked up girls.

And it's like, you are not going to separate us.

No.

Like, you will not come in between this friendship, which. Holy shit, that's on another level. As we know, teenagers make notoriously bad criminals, though.

Yeah, they sure do.

And this was no different. In their fantasy, it's likely that Juliet and Pauline assumed they would just kill Nora, deny any knowledge of what happened, and nobody would ask any follow up questions. Whether it was Agnes, Richie, their parents, or the police asking questions, both of them provided little information and just tried to stick to the explanation that Nora had fallen.

Wow.

But everybody was like, no. Like, there's no way we know you're not telling the truth. Yeah. So while Pauline and Juliet told a nearly identical story to interviewing detectives, the story was thoroughly unbelievable.

Yeah.

And when they were confronted with the more unbelievable elements, both girls started to seem shaken and they gave weak answers. For instance, when Detective Archie Tate asked Pauline why there was an old stocking at the scene, Pauline told him, I usually carry an old one in my bag.

Wow. That's all you got?

Why wouldn't you say, that's not mine.

That's. That's not mine.

I don't know.

I mean, I'm stocking. Yeah, I'm glad that you gave a.

Shitty answer and it worked out, but.

It'S like, that's what you came up with. I carry an old stocking in my bag.

Just one. Not even a pair. Old stocking sold. What?

Yeah.

Detectives were looking for any part of either girl story that they could grab onto that might pull their whole lie apart. And eventually they got it from Juliet. According to both girls earliest accounts, they had been walking together when Nora, who was walking behind them, slipped and fell. But in her statement, to the detectives, Juliet said she had been walking far ahead of the two, and when she turned around, she saw Nora lying on the ground and she was bleeding. When confronted with that inconsistency, Juliet claimed she thought Pauline and her mom had been arguing and she didn't want her friend to get in any trouble. So she said they were together when Nora fell.

Uh oh, she's turning.

There we go.

She's turning.

The change in the narrative obviously put suspicion for the murder squarely on Pauline, who detectives now believed was her mother's killer. Now, when confronted with this new version of events, Pauline immediately knew that Juliet had changed her story and implicated her in the death. But rather than feeling outraged or betrayed, she didn't. Nope. Pauline was entirely willing to accept the blame, believing that she was protecting her friend.

Because remember, shows you right now the power dynamic. Power dynamic there. Juliet had it from the beginning and she kept that shit till the end.

She did.

I thought you were gonna say that she just broke. No, like, that betrayal just destroyed her. But for her just to turn around and be like, yep.

But I think in her mind, she didn't even see it as a betrayal. She just saw it as well. Juliet must have had to do what we have to do and I'll take the fall for it.

Yeah, this is part of her plan, so I'm just gonna go with it.

Yep.

Wow.

Yep. So upstairs in Pauline's bedroom, detectives informed her that she was now being arrested for murder and advised her of her rights. Pauline declined to answer most of the questions being asked by the investigators. But when they asked how many times she hit her mother, she replied, I dont know. A great many times, I should imagine.

Holy shit.

Cold. Thats cold. I dont know. A lot.

Wow.

No longer feeling the need to lie, she dropped the innocent grieving daughter act and stoically listened as detectives read the interview record back to her, essentially asking her to confirm that her confession was accurate. She listened to every detail. She agreed and signed the document saying as much. But before she did, she wanted to make one thing clear on the record. She said, I wish to state that Juliet did not know of my intentions and did not see me strike my mother. I took the chance to strike my mother when Juliet was away.

Holy shit.

Completely.

Damn.

Taking the wrap completely.

Wow. Yeah, that's different level. A different level.

Because I feel like we have covered cases before where there's been two people that have committed a murder together. Like formed this really close bond over time. But they all even married couples.

Oh, most of always married couples nine.

Out of ten times. And these two teenage girls. One of them is like, she had nothing to do with it. And I'll never say she did.

Like look at Rose and Fred west.

Yeah, or my rose tried to be.

Like, I had nothing. I don't know, I wasn't even there. And Fred was like fuck that, she was there.

She was absolutely.

She was part of it. They don't. Wow, that's really unbelievable. That's incredible.

On another level.

In a bad way.

Yeah.

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It didn't take investigators long to realize that while they initially thought the murder to be the act of Pauline alone, Juliet not only knew about it, but also participated in the killing. Because Pauline had refused to give any kind of coherent response to investigators questions, the press started proposing their own theories as to why the girls had murdered Nora Parker. This is just silly. Brisbane Telegraph reported the detectives have been told that Pauline had been pestering her mother to buy her a pony. Pauline had become so obsessed with her desire to join the pony club, police say she threatened her mother that she would kill her if she were not given a pony.

That cannot be real.

It is. Brisbane Telegraph 1954.

Brisbane Telegraph. You're not all right. You're not all right, y'all. You're not alright.

Well let's not. Let's not minimize this to oppose.

Get right with yourself princess, because that's. That's not okay.

Silly gooseba.

That is such silly goose behavior.

Now, it's unclear whether investigators actually believed that Nora had been killed for refusing to buy her daughter a pony. But whatever the case, they soon found Pauline's diary, which brought the case into a completely different despite being written actually mostly in coded language that's been described as a, quote, jolly school girl tone mixed with Hollywood crime lingo. That's terrifying, isn't it? The entries in the diary made the motive clear. And over the course of several years, the girls had developed an intensely strong bond that when threatened by Juliet's potential move to South Africa, they were willing to defend with violence.

Damn.

When the girls appeared in court for their arraignment because they had a trial together.

Oh wow.

Yeah. They appeared in court for their arraignment. Reporters were struck by the bizarre behavior and just indifference to the charges. One reporter wrote the girls looked embarrassed at first. They chattered and made finger signs to each other. They're literally like communicating with one another.

Holy shit.

When photographs of Nora's body were shown in the courtroom, the girls allegedly smiled and grinned at one another.

Holy shit.

Seemingly oblivious to the seriousness of this situation that they had created.

Wow.

However, when Juliet testified in the pre trial hearing, she slipped back into that sympathetic teenager act, telling the court she'd only been trying to help a friend. She said they were quarreling. I saw Pauline hit misses Parker with the brick and a stocking. I took the stocking and hit her too. I was terrified. I thought one of them had to die. I wanted to help Pauline.

Wow.

While the girls seemed to be trying to frame the murder as a situation that got out of control, those diary entries told a completely different story of a murderous plan. Malice aforethought, baby.

So much malice aforethought set into motion.

In order to prevent being separated. So they were jointly charged with murder. On August 23, 1954, Juliet and Pauline's trial began at the Christchurch Supreme Court before Justice Adams and an all male jury.

Huh.

Which is interesting.

Fifties, I know.

At which time both girls pleaded not guilty to the charge of murder. In his opening statements, the prosecutor Aw Brown told the jury that the Crown would present evidence, quote, which will make it terribly clear that the two young girls conspired to kill the mother and carried it into effect. According to Brown, they developed a, quote, intense devotion to each other and their main purpose in life was to share each other's secrets and plans so much that anyone who came between them must be removed.

Yeah, I mean, that's it.

It's literally black and white. It's literally written in the diary.

It literally is in black and white.

I have it right here. Shall we continue?

I can just read it from her own mouth.

Legit. As the prosecution presented the evidence to the jury and read long passages from Pauline's diary. The girls yawned, and this is a quote. Yawned and exchanged smiles, and they appeared to be thoroughly enjoying themselves.

Something's wrong.

Yeah.

Something is wrong.

Yeah.

Because even if they are callous enough to commit that act and cold enough and disturbed enough to commit that act, seeing how they're acting afterwards, when they know that that was wrong and they know they're going to be punished for it, like, they're not going to get out of this.

They don't.

They have to care for them to have no care of that. There's something else wrong.

There's a.

There's a switch off.

Switch off, exactly.

A switch needs to be rewired, because, like, that's the fact that they're just, like, laughing through this. I'm like, and, oh, you don't know, like, some. You are gonna get in trouble for this.

Yeah. And I think. I don't necessarily think that mattered to them because. Because also they had the. The belief that they were telepathic and that they could retreat to this world together.

It's like. But it's also like, you know, you're. You're gonna be separated if you get in trouble, too. Mm hmm.

I don't.

I don't think they're gonna stick in the same cell.

I wonder if they knew that I.

I feel like they have to.

Or if they thought that they would somehow end up in the same prison.

You know what? You might be right. Absolutely. With their young girls, and they're in such a fantasy world that maybe they were like, we're gonna be in the same cell. It's gonna be wonderful. We'll live together forever.

Yeah. Cause jail. We committed this. This crime together. So, like, Bonnie and Clyde, you know, like, let's go. Yeah.

Yeah.

It was either that or I think they thought that they could still, like, they could still communicate and go into.

That world together, but then they would have thought they could do that whether she was in South Africa or not.

But I think. I wonder if they thought, like, the distance would make it harder being South Africa and New Zealand.

Yeah.

You know? I don't know.

I think you were right the first time. I think that either they must have thought they were going to be in the same prison.

Yeah.

Or they just didn't realize it.

Yeah.

Damn.

It's weird. But. Describing them both as precocious and dirty minded girls, brown read passage after passage that detailed their sexual fantasies and experimentation, as well as the growing resentment and eventually hatred that Pauline had for her mother, the sexual implications of the relationship were emphasized by Henry Hume, who testified that he had become concerned about the intensity and the relationship and had tried to, quote, break it up in the months leading to the murder. But because the girls had confessed to the murder, the defense didn't need to argue their innocence, only why they had committed the crime. In his opening statement, defense attorney Ta Grieson told the jury the sanity of the girls was an all important and vital question, which, like. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, you can't question that one.

Fair enough. Ta Grieson. According to him, the evidence clearly showed that the girls were, quote, mentally ill, and their interest in sexual and homosexual matters would show that they were not ordinary but ill. They were suffering from a paranoia of exalted type and folly ado communicated. Insanity.

I love that we're throwing in, like, the gay in there as, like, fucked up. So remember that everybody, like, that's probably why. And it's like, nope, I think I.

Nope, I think you're on to something with the folly ado of it all.

I think the folly ado is absolutely it. And I think it was. These two girls were disturbed well before they met each other.

Exactly.

And they met each other, and the folly ado was ripe for the pickin because they were disturbed.

I don't think their sexual identity had anything to do with it.

Well, and you can also see, like, that the prosecutor is saying these are dirty minded little girls because they're looking at their diary where they are talking about sexual fantasies and stuff. And it's like, no, no, no. They're just. They're just girls, right? They're allowed to have sexual fantasies and they're allowed to put them in their diary.

Right.

That's where they should put them, actually.

And you don't really have to focus on.

That's not dirty.

The dirty mindedness of it all, because it's not dirty. It's a 50.

So even a. Nor even a quote unquote regular sexual fantasy from a girl would be wrong. Dirty.

Right.

And that means something's wrong with them. And it's like, stop focusing on the sexual aspect of this so much and look at the fact that they are now convicted murderers almost, well, I'm assuming, going to, like, they're charged with murder a human being because of the bond that they formed that is so beyond anything that you can even comprehend, conceive.

And this crime is not a sexually motivated crime. There's nothing sexual in nature at the scene whatsoever. So there's just no need to focus on the, the things that they wrote in their dire diary that were sexual in nature.

If they had killed Nicholas.

Mm hmm.

The boyfriend, did you think that's where it was going? I thought for a second if they had killed Nicholas, then. Then take a peek at what's happening here, because that could be a sexual motivated crime.

Definitely.

It could definitely be something around there. Like, at least take a peek at what's happening. Mm hmm. But this has nothing to do with sexual anything.

And even the manner in which Nora Parker was murdered. Exactly.

None of it makes any sense. And it's like, so to focus so heavily on that, it seems very fifties to me. And I think these girls shouldn't have any kind of sexual fantasies, regardless of whether they are gay, straight, whatever, and what have you. I think they're literally, like, they are dirty because they're.

They think about. They think about sex.

Yeah. Even though they're teen girls.

Exactly.

But you're not allowed to.

It's. It's very fifties, like you said.

It really is.

But the defense argued that while. Oh, and by the way, anybody that doesn't know what folly adieu means, we've been saying it like, a ton. It's the madness of two. Yeah, I meant to say that earlier.

It's when two people can form such a bond that their. Their madness kind of intertwines.

Yeah. We covered, um, the Papine sisters.

Yes. Papine sisters.

Yes. That. That was, um, a case that we covered that. And I think we, like, heavily focused on the madness of two Falia do aspect.

You are correct.

So, yeah, just in case anybody was like, what the fuck are you.

What are you talking about?

Why are you speaking French all of a sudden? Now, the defense argued that while the diary entries did confirm that the murder had been enthusiastically planned, they claimed it also demonstrated the girls shared delusional state and evidence of psychosis, which I can see that. I do agree with that.

Yeah.

Testifying in her daughter's defense, Hilda Hume told the jury, quote, so much I read in the 1954 diary was incorrect. Things were described in the diary in a very distorted and untruthful way.

Okay.

And then you think about that promise that was made.

Yeah.

Quote unquote made or wasn't made or wasn't. Like you, you have to wonder how much of the diary was just their own delusion. And I think probably 98% of it was.

I think there was a lot going on with these girls that was not being paid attention to as heavily as it could have been.

And I think a lot of it had to do with where society was at the time.

Absolutely.

Now, in support of their argument, the defense called several psychiatrists to testify, all of whom evaluated Pauline and Juliet following the murder, according to doctor Reginald Medicott, which, like. What a fucking name.

Reginald Medicott.

That's a name.

A doctor.

Yeah, he had to be a doctor.

Yeah.

He evaluated both girls just days after the murder and said both. Both girls are sensitive, selfish, imaginative, and show inability to tolerate criticism. Pauline has ruled her temper by bursts of temper.

Eek.

So he's like, she gets angry and angry and angrier.

Yeah.

The comment about Pauline ruling the friendship was critical to the defense's argument that Juliet had essentially been manipulated into helping murder Nora, which is so interesting to see, that flipped on its head the way it was.

Absolutely.

But I think Juliet actually was much better at flicking that switch on of, like, I was just. I needed to help my friend, and I didn't realize what I was doing.

Yeah, it seems that way.

Whereas Pauline, I don't think that she can turn that switch on and off. I think she just gets fucked.

She's emotional. Yeah. She's ruled by her emotions. And I think Juliet. But Juliet is, like, intensely intelligent in her iq alone. You can tell in just the way she acts. And so it's like, I think her mind, the way it works, she's able to compartmentalize things in a different way that normal people can understand.

And that sometimes worked in her favor.

Yeah, absolutely.

Now, also testifying for the defense was Doctor Francis Bennett, that same doctor who had evaluated Pauline the previous year. At doctor Hume's request, he told the jury Juliet and Pauline, quote, had a wild infatuation for each other and spent as much time together as possible, discussing their gods and books, bathing and bedding together and photographing each other, which was all true. Yeah. They also had come up with, like, their own religion and followed the tenants of that, I guess.

Wow.

Yeah.

Okay. This was deep.

Not only did they have a world, they had, like, a social structure.

I was going to say they had a social structure.

You're right. While Medicott's testimony focused mostly on their shared psychosis, Bennett's conclusion was of a more lurid nature. He told the jury, I agree with Doctor Medicott that they were suffering from paranoia. If separated, they have to revert back to their unhappy conflict with others only in their homosexual aspect. They think they are secure.

So again, what the fuck?

I'm like, I don't think.

Yes. Doesn't have anything to do with it.

In my opinion. It really doesn't. And it's it's not. It's not them being, like, lesbians or homosexuals or what have you. It's the bond that they have with one another.

Whatever that bond is, it doesn't matter.

Think it is like a love or like a.

No, I think it's something. I think it is. I don't think it's. It's a. Anything that we can. It's. I don't think it's anything we can label. I think it's a twisted bond. That doesn't fall within any of the categories of a normal relationship.

Yeah. It goes beyond comprehension.

Yeah. I don't think this is like a love. I don't think it's a friendship. I don't think it's either one of those things. It's something entirely different that doesn't end well.

It's that folly ado.

Yeah.

It's just what it. You can label it as nothing, really, beyond that totally separate scope of.

And it's just. It's strange to me that. I mean, it's not strange, considering the time. How much they fucking obsessed over that.

Like, the prosecution and the defense.

It's so strange. But again, the time.

But both doctors agreed that the girls were suffering a shared mental illness. And both declared them, quote, unquote, certifiable. Which is near now. The murder of Nora Parker shocked all of New Zealand. Mostly because of the brutality of the crime. And the fact that the act had been committed by her own daughter and her friend. To wrap your head around that is wild. Their behavior, like we were just saying it. Defied all social norms. Not just in the violence aspect of it. But in the intimacy and the fantasy.

That led up to it.

People just couldn't wrap their brains around it. And I think people found themselves very interested in the story because of that aspect.

Because, like, what happened here, which, like.

I feel that same way. That's what drew me to the story. But in response, the press and public sought to distance themselves from the crime. By defining Juliet and Pauline as singularly evil. Throughout the trial, reporters repeatedly emphasized their strangeness. Citing everything from their childhood illness. To their foreign born status. As an explanation for the horrible act. And if that was how the press and public had framed the case for themselves. It's fair to assume that some of the jurors had a similar opinion of them.

Yeah, I'm sure.

So on August 28, 1954, the jury retired for deliberation. And the next day returned to deliver a guilty verdict.

Damn.

They rejected the defense's argument of mental illness. Which is very interesting.

Shocked by that.

It's an all male jury.

Yeah, you're right.

And I gotta say it, and it's 1954.

Yeah. That's the only thing that makes sense.

The understanding of mental illness is just not there. I think they were like, throw them in jail.

Yeah.

Regarding their sentence, Justice Adams said, as we were both under the age of 18, the sentence of the court is detention during Her Majesty's pleasure and handed down. I know.

What a weird way to work. What the fuck? Is that how they say I'm sorry? I'm like, what? During Her Majesty's pleasure? The fuck does that mean?

Let's google it.

Google that shit. Like, what the fuck? I'm sorry, that just struck me. I've never heard it said like that.

A phrase colloquially used to describe the period of detention imposed upon a defendant found not guilty by reason of insanity. But in this case, that's not what happened.

Huh.

Someone who was put in prison at his or Her Majesty's pleasure is kept there until it is officially decided that it is safe to release them.

And that's because they're under 18.

Yes.

So, yeah, during Her Majesty's pleasure.

What a way to say it.

What the fuck?

Yeah. I'm glad you also thought that was.

Weird, because I was like, I'll see.

If I can dance over it. Maybe I'm the only one that thinks it's weird.

You cannot.

I'm not.

I could not. I'm gonna stop you in your tracks with that one.

Well, I'm about to stop you in your tracks, because this judge handed down a sentence of five years in prison for the both of them.

Five years?

Five years.

They brutally beat a woman.

With a brick.

With a brick. And then dragged her in the bushes.

And then just said she fell. And clearly were, like, disturbed in many other ways.

And planned this for a long time.

Yep. According to the reports, both girls smiled at one another when the verdict was read.

See? What the fuck?

But spectators in the courtroom were outraged.

Yeah.

After the verdict was read, many among the crowd loudly protested. And nearly 125 people had to be removed from the courtroom because they were fucking pissed.

That's scary.

So both girls served their five year sentence at separate adult prisons. Juliet at Mount Eden prison and Pauline at Christchurch prison. And after their release, they just faded back into society. They changed their names to protect their privacy. Years later, when asked about her time at Mount Eden as the only prisoner under the age of 18, Juliet said, it was cold. There were rats, canvas sheets and calico underwear. I had to wash out my sanitary towels by hand, and they put me on physical labor until I passed out.

Damn.

It was bleak.

Yeah, that's. Wow.

However, while it might have been a difficult experience, she nonetheless calls it, quote, the best thing that could have happened.

Whoa. So I think I didn't see that coming.

It sounds like she may have been rehabilitated. Rehabilitated? Yeah, it does sound that way. I mean, both of them kind of retreated into society and. What, you want offended again?

So you want that to happen? So, yeah.

During her time in prison, Juliet found religion and became a member of the mormon faith, which ultimately led her to express remorse and openly take responsibility for the murder. She said, that's how I survived my time while others cracked up. I seem to be the only one saying, I'm guilty and I'm where I should be.

Wow.

So she accepted it.

Okay.

I mean, still fucking terrifying.

Damn.

In the years following their release from prison, Pauline and Juliet sought to establish new lives for themselves. Under those new identities, Juliet left New Zealand immediately for the UK, where she established herself as Ann Perry and went on to build a successful career as a novelist.

Ann Perry?

Yeah.

Bill Perry was the guy that her mother was having an affair with.

What the. That's. There's a psychology there.

Don't you dare tell me that's not on.

I didn't even catch that. Good call. Good point.

Was the one that she was trying to catch her debt, her mom with so that they could get the money to run away together.

Good fucking call. I didn't even think of that. Well, she was a very successful novelist.

She. Holy shit.

More than a hundred popular thrillers.

What the fuck?

Isn't that insane? I mean, she'd been. She had plenty of fucking practice.

Holy shit.

They created that whole world. That was a thriller. That.

Wow.

I mean, their lives were a thriller.

Yeah.

Pauline, meanwhile, changed her name to Hilary Nathan and attempted to become a nun. But that didn't work. I don't know why. And she went on to study at Auckland University before becoming a librarian in Auckland and then moving to UK when she was no longer on parole.

Wow.

Living in anonymity allowed both women to live normal lives until the mid 1990s, when a new movie titled Heavenly Creatures, which, by the way, is a term pulled directly from Pauline's diary.

I was wondering where that came from.

That she calls her herself and Juliet. Heavenly creatures.

It is a great name for a movie.

Oh, it is.

Heavenly creatures it is. That's a great name.

I want to see it now. Yeah, but they had a life of anonymity. Until that movie was announced, directed by then little known Peter Jackson.

Just little.

Little Peter Jackson, you know, unnamed. The announcement generated a lot of buzz, and reporters started digging in order to find out who these women were and what had inspired the film. Ann Perry. My God. Said in a 2003 interview, it seemed so unfair. Everything I had worked to achieve as a decent member of society was threatened. And once again, my life was being interpreted by someone else. It happened in court when I was a minor. I wasn't allowed to speak, and I heard all these lies being told. And now there was a film, but nobody bothered to talk to me. I knew nothing about it until the day before release. All I could think of was that my life would fall apart and that it might kill my mother.

Whoa.

Which luckily, it didn't. The two women, like we just said, were eventually outed by the press. But by then, so much time had passed that beyond general curiosity, few people were interested in villainizing or demonizing either of them.

Yeah. I mean, if they seem to have made productive members of society out of themselves, like, is. There's really no point.

Yeah, leave it alone, you know? You know. Ann Perry, otherwise known as Juliet Hume, died from a heart attack on April 10, 2023.

Oh, wow.

At her home in Los Angeles. And as of today, Hilary Nathan, who was previously Pauline Parker, is believed to be alive and somewhere in the UK.

Wow.

What a wild story, though, that.

Wow.

And the fact that they both seem to have been rehabilitated after five years in prison as mine.

That's the thing. Like, that's really wild.

And it's. And that makes you question what would have happened had somebody stepped in sooner.

I know.

That's like, where been able to step in sooner was trying to.

And people were more like taking note of these things and trying to think of ways to, you know, that. Yeah, it is. It's one of those things because it's not like they went around killing people.

No.

Or losing their shit on people or assaulting people later. You know? Like, the penchant for violence, outward violence, was. Didn't seem to be something that was innate.

No. Until their relationship was threatened. And I think. I think that was the biggest part of it, because at that point, that dynamic in their relationship was at its highest point, you know?

Yeah. And you know what? If they had been separated.

Yeah.

At one point, like, if they had been separated, I think it would have gone a different way.

I think it's.

Look at when they were. They had a forced separation in prison.

Yeah.

And they thrived.

Exactly.

So it's like, I think they were keeping each other in this shithole place.

Yeah.

Where neither of them could grow because they were just this festering wound together. And if you break them apart, they're able to thrive on their own.

It's really too bad that there wasn't some way to do the move. Like, I feel like it sounds traumatic to figure out the move without telling one of them.

Yeah.

But maybe that would have resulted in.

Yeah, you wish it had happened earlier.

Yeah.

Just happened earlier in that relationship.

Having to die the way that she. Having to die one and having to die the way that she did. Wow.

What a story it is. Yeah, that's. Wow.

Something to sit on.

Yeah. That really is a lot to take in there.

Interesting case, for sure.

Yeah.

So with that being said, we hope you keep listening.

We hope you keep it weird, but.

Not so weird that you form an unbreakable bond with somebody and then murder somebody over it. Because you guys should really just go get coffee by yourselves, away from each other.

Enjoy yourself.

Yeah. Find peace in oneself.

If you like morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey@wondery.com.

Survey scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught. I'm Saty Cole. And I'm Sarah Haggie, and we're the host of Scamfluencers, a weekly podcast from wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims, and what's left once the facade falls away. We've covered stories like a shark tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit filed by Larry King, and no real product to push. He then began to prey on vulnerable women, instead selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs to the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Giudice. What should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives hall of Fame. Follow scamfluencers on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to scamfluencers early and ad free right now on Wondry.