Transcript of Episode 567: Fred & Rose West (Part 4)

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You're listening to a Morbid Network podcast.

Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash.

And I'm Elaina.

And this is Morbid.

This is morbid.

Yeah.

Oh, we're almost done, everybody.

I'm like, Goodness, what a terrible case.

This is a terrible case. It really is. But you know what? We're on the last part of it. Okay. And we're going to at least get a little bit of something at the end. We'll get a resolution. I like that. That's all we're looking for in life, is a resolution. Cool. Yeah.

Do you have any shit for the top?

Not really. I'm really excited to see the Ghost movie.

That's exciting. In theaters. That is exciting. In June. I'll be with you. So excited about that. Party. Very psych. There's a big reveal, people are saying.

Everyone's assuming there's going to be a reveal of what's happening to Papa because we're going to get some lore in there, of course.

What is happening to Big Pa.

I'm dying to know what's happening to Papa. It did say in the trailer, this is not a story about death. And I was like, what the fuck does that mean?

Rebirth.

So who knows? Who knows? I'm here to know when I'm supposed to know.

The lore runs so deep.

It's so deep. Yeah. I'm constantly learning new lore.

And you're constantly like, I'm like, wait, what?

I'm constantly sharing new lore with you that I found.

Sometimes I'm like, wait, who is the dad?

It's very creative.

It is really creative. And it's cool that it's a band. Yeah. Like, it's fun. Because it's not a typical band.

No, it's fun as hell. I love it.

I love how much you love it.

I love how much I love it, too.

Your little eyes are so bright right now.

They're twinkling. I was like, your little fucking eyes.

Your little beady fucking eyes are just twinkling.

I was thinking, your little beady fucking eyes.

No. What do you got? You know what? I'm on a sourdough journey, as everyone in my life knows.

She is on a sourdough journey.

It's overtaken my life. Drew went to his mom's yesterday, and he was like, Yeah, Ash is on a bread journey. And she thought that was the funniest thing, the bread journey. A bread journey. But I wanted to shout out all the weirdos for helping me because I had this beautiful loaf that I made, and then I cut into it and I said, Arnaud, what happened here? Because it's so involved. But one weirdo in particular, I don't know if I should say their name or not because they didn't say if I could. You know who you are. Sent me an entire video on how she does her-Oh my God. Sourd. And she's a fellow Massachusetts girly. What a badass bitch. And it was so nice. She was like, Okay, let me tell you what I do. And she explained it so cohesively. Yeah. And then another weirdo who's a head baker at a bakery, walked me through this whole process. Sent me this massive message of in-depth what to do. And it was so helpful. And that was among 50 other messages that I got from people, just trying to help.

See, that's the nice part of social media.

It is. And that's the only part that I pay attention to.

That's the only part I like, to be honest. Pretty much. When things like that happen, you're like, Well, shit. This is what it's for.

Let's come together over bread. Come together over bread. Sourdo with me. But yeah, I'm really excited. So I tried again. I love that. And I have two loaves in the fridge right now, but I proofed them last night on the counter.

Don't worry, guys.

For close to 11 of ours because I keep it pretty cold in my house. So it's okay to bulk ferment for that long. Listen to me, million terms and stuff.

Just being a sourdough girly.

It's really fun. If you want to go on a little journey with yourself and you have the time, it's fucking fun.

And you have the It's very- It takes time.

A lot of time. Yeah. I was like, I don't think I'll be able to do this when I have children, but we'll try.

But you know what? Who knows? Give it a shot.

And then in other news, pretty soon we're going to be releasing our bonus episode. So get ready for that. We have been listening to the Audible original title, Desperate Deadly Widows with four women authors.

Which is so fucking cool. It is cool. It is cool. I love that.

When I saw four different authors, I was like, wow, what was that process? But listening to the title, it's so cohesive.

It is. It feels like it was written by one person. It's like they became a super author together. They became mega author. Mega author. It's like mega desk in the office. Mega author. I love it. And they all just created this cohesive tale. That's really fun.

And each woman in the book just has such a distinct personality. I feel like It's almost like it's not the same subjects at all, but it's almost like sex in the city where you're like, oh, I'm a Miranda. Yeah.

You can pick out who you are in this. Yeah.

So we're going to be discussing that way more at length.

Adnauseum, if you will. Adnauseum. Like book club style.

Yeah. And we're going to have a special guest who you guys know and love.

Yeah, you know them already. You love them.

And it's going to be a lot of fun. They are the perfect guests for this title.

Literally the perfect guests.

And I love them so much.

I'm sorry if you guys hear my What's your stomach, growling? She's been loud.

She has. I said something earlier and your stomach was like, what? You also might be able to hear my chest rumbling. It's like crackling. Yeah.

You're still going through it.

Yeah. I woke up this morning and I thought I was much better. And then, well, I am. Yeah. But my every time I cough, afterwards, it's like a rumbling settles.

It's like a thunder clap.

Yeah. It's like a crackling of my chest.

You know? It's hard out here in these streets in the world. It is. Everybody's getting sick. It's cold and flow safe. And you know what? This story is not going to help anybody from not feeling sick because you're going to feel sick. But it's the end. And there's a resolution at the end, at least some resolution. What is that? It's not like they, I'm going to tell you right now, they don't get away with it and go riding off into the sunset never to be heard from again. So don't worry about that. That's good. They don't somehow get off on a technicality. No one's getting out of jail. Good, good, good. So don't worry about that. They're gone. Bye, bitches.

That's what it is. I was trying to think of the Jack's Mannecan lyrics of the Resolution song. Oh, yeah. I need light in the dark as I search for the resolution. That's how I feel. I love it. I need some light in the dark.

Yeah. I'm not going to give it to you for a little while. I apologize for that. So when we last left you, we were talking about the really horrific murder of Shirley Ann Robinson. Yeah. And I had said that it was over a year before they next killed again. Because again, they would go through these long periods of time where we assume they didn't kill anyone, but nobody's entirely convinced of that.

Yeah, I can't say that I am. Yeah. And also it sounds like police were starting to... They were there more often. So I'm sure it was harder to...

For sure. … Hold people captive. But I wonder if there's other areas that we could find victims. Yeah, I agree. Now, like so many of the other victims of Fred and Rosemary West, 16-year-old Allison Chambers, 16, had come from a troubled upbringing and had actually spent her early years living between her parents who had separated when she was very young, and she ended up going into different facilities where she would be living. That's so sad. Yeah. Now, Allison was described as a vulnerable girl from a disturbed background. That's how all the media described her. When she was 15 and a half years old, she was placed at Jordansbrook. Now, according to Sewns, Allison, frequently, withdraw into a fantasy life, and she composed romantic poetry and liked to draw a structures of an imaginary farm where she dreamed of living. That's so gut-run- That's so gut-run- Which is just devastating.

Just like, retreated into that world.

I want to be clear, again, once again, I'm going to say it before all of these entries into this series. A lot of trigger warning for a lot of sexual sadism and sexual assault, murder with sexual assault. I mean, it's really bad. And in this one in In particular, we're going to get a little bit into their own children. I'm not tapping into a lot of those details for my own stuff. But I mean, honestly, you can read the book that I gave you. We're going to we're going to link it here, Anne-Marie's Book. I encourage you to read that to get it right from her because she's the one who lived it. I'm not going to go into the nitty-gritty of everything, but I am going to let you know something because they end up murdering another one of their children. So that will be in here. Oh my God. That will be in here. Now, so Allison sounds like she was just living this tough life, tough upbringing, and she was just retreating into a fantasy world. Right. And Which, and the fact that she had this very specific farm, like imaginary farm that she had where she just dreamed of it being a reality and she lived there is just gut-wrenching.

It really is. And what's even worse is Fred and Rosemary West specifically pray on that one aspect of her life.

That makes a lot of sense that they did.

But because she would retreat often into her fantasy world and she would write poetry, which honestly is a sign of intelligence and like, beauty and, you know.

Everything right in the world.

A great personality to be around. Kids are usually pretty rough. So she was ruthlessly bullied and mocked at the girls home. The other girls would mock her, which I'm like, Girls, let's be nice to other girls.

You're all going through Yeah, exactly. We'll get through together instead of against each other.

This left her leaving even more isolated and more lonely. So unable to make friends at school, she did have one friend who was a teenager named Anne, and this teenager lived at 25 Cromwell Street. Yeah. Now, since Allison was wicked lonely, prone to fantasy, she was easy prey for Fred and Rose, who had a knack of knowing exactly what to say to manipulate girls just like Allison, who had gone through what she had gone through. On her various visits to the house, Rose would tell Allison that she could relate. She knew exactly how this girl felt. She gave her gifts. At one point, she gave her a gold-colored necklace with her name on it and showed the girl a picture of a farm and told her that she and Fred owned that farm, and Allison could live there once she moved out of Jordanbrook.

What the fuck?

Now, it turned out that that photo was just an from a realtor's brochure, but they knew it was enough to draw Allison even deeper into their world. Of course. And Fred was equally as fucked up and manipulative and his regular self Leaving her, he would lavish her with praise and attention. He would give her a lot of attention, which is what she was in positive attention.

She wasn't getting that anywhere else.

And when she would go back to school, she would tell the other girls she'd met an older man who gave her all kinds of gifts, and they were in love. Oh, no. Now, from the moment they'd met her, Fred and Rose had made all kinds of promises to Allison and the things they would give her and do for her when she turned 17 and could leave Jordansbrook. One day in early August, 1979, just days before her 17th birthday, Allison quietly packed all her belongings and ran away from Jordansbrook, Oh, no. Presumably to 25 Cromwell Street. She wrote a letter to her mother before she left, and she explained that she'd been invited to live with, quote, a very homely Emily. I look after their five children and do some of their housework. They have a child the same age as me who accepts me as a big sister, and we get on great. The family owns flats, and I share with the oldest sister.

Oh, my God. To think that she thought that she was finally going to get this life that she's wanted for almost 17 years.

And that they went out of their way to convince her of that. To promise it to her. And to prey on the little hopes and fantasies that she had. They're so fucked up. It's beyond comprehension. It really Now, when Allison's body was later exhumed from the garden at 25 Cromwell Street, there was a large purple belt wrapped around her head and under her jaw.

Oh, God.

The prosecutor told the jury at Rose's Trial while, The belt found around her head, clamping closed her jaw, can only have been placed in position to stop her screaming. Oh, my God. The purpose of such restraint must have been to permit abuse of the type experienced by the others.

Oh, It's so dark.

Like the others, Fred had kept several of the small bones from Allison's hands and feet. Now, when Allison failed to show up for work the following day at the training school, a missing person's report was filed, and it listed Allison as, quote, an absconder from care. An investigation was opened, but when Allison's mother told them she had gotten a letter from Allison that said she'd gone to work as a living nanny with a lovely family, investigators didn't ask any questions, and they closed the case. Right. Now, while the victims of Fred and Rose West, like the outside victims of Fred and Rosemary West, they've been the focus of every story, rightfully, of this. It's worth keeping in mind at this point that after the murder of Charmaine, they still had four children living at home with them. Sometimes you can forget that just because there's so much other awful shit going on. You can't fathom that there's children here. No, but there are four. As the daughter of Fred and Rina, Anne-Marie, received the brunt of the horrific physical, emotional, and sexual abuse. But the others were completely aware of it and often bore witness to it and also had to deal with it.

And they also had to be witnessed to Rose's sex work or the abuse of other children. Yeah. They saw a lot, and they experienced a lot themselves. They all went through a lot. Hell. Anne-marie's story, I'm warning you right now, is one of the most horrific things I have ever read in my entire life.

I believe that.

Hands down, bar, none. You read her book, read it, but I'm telling you right now, I can't explain to you what... It's horrible. It's horrible, and I can't believe that she was able to even put pen to paper to talk about it. I give her a lot of credit for being able to.

It was like some healing experience.

I hope it was.

I don't know how you can heal from all of that, but you hope that it was some cathartic experience.

I'm sure it was painful, but I hoped some help came out of it for her. I mean, there was a very big inappropriate focus on very deviant and very demonic sexuality in that house. You know what I mean? It's not like they were living a different lifestyle, you know what I mean? Then the mainstream, you know what I mean? This was sadistic shit. It's like, this is not, this is totally inappropriate, totally beyond the That's a good love of imagination.

That's the best thoughts that you could ever think.

And it was incredibly damaging to these children. Incredibly damaging. And these are their parents. No matter what, it's just like they will also, in some ways, think this is just how parents are. Well, yeah. It's very hard for kids to understand that their situation with their parents is not what everybody else is going through.

Yeah, you just assume.

They're Some of it, they're looking at like, okay, I just have to deal with this until I leave. Like, this is just life. And then they manipulated them so hard that some of them were trying to defend them later. But they're their kids. You know what I mean? It's one of those things that's like, that's just such a different situation. I can't even fathom it.

I really can't. No, I really can't. This show is sponsored by Better Help. I feel like this year has already started going by so quickly. And one thing that I am especially proud of in 2024 is that I started going to therapy again. That's a huge accomplishment that I'm proud of going back. But something I want to accomplish this year is just being a little more positive in general. When life goes fast, it's important to take a moment to celebrate your wins and make adjustments for the rest of the year. Therapy Guys can help you take stock of your progress and set achievable goals for the next six months. I absolutely love therapy, and goal setting is one of the main things that I work on in therapy. And I talk about different ways to just achieve those goals along the way. And if you're thinking of starting therapy, give better help a try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. All you have to do is fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist, and you can switch therapists anytime for no additional charge.

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But their daughter, May, wrote later, If dad had any ambition at all for any of his daughters. It was simply that we should breed and have at least as many babies as he and mom had done.

And why? You don't love those.

So he would have more victims. Yeah. I mean, they got to... They They got to make their own victims, essentially.

Wow.

Yeah. Now, once Anne-Marie was old enough, she had moved out of the house, and Fred's eye shifted towards his younger daughters, Heather and May. He would often make comments about their bodies or joke about, and this is awful, quote, it being a father's right to take his daughter's virginity.

Oh, my God. That you want to throw up.

The girls thought this was a joke because he was so crude And he was so crass and so lewd and so disgusting all the time. And he would say these disgusting things, and they would just be like, oh, that's just like, whatever. He just says this disgusting shit. Oh, my God. But eventually they realized he was serious. Oh, yeah. He was sexually abusing. He was a horrible fucking predator monster. When he was saying that, he meant it. When they were in their teen years, Fred began treating his daughter as basically as he would treat any other girl around him or woman or young woman around him, especially when he was a teenager. Because remember, we said any woman that was near him, he would just grab and grope at them. He would do that with his daughters. Oh, my God. Now, May did her best to hide the abuse and the emotional effects from the world. She just tried retreat into herself. But Heather seemed to have a much harder time with it. Yeah. Obviously. I don't even know how any of them were functioning. And by the time she was in her mid-teens, Heather had become very withdrawn and very sullen.

She never smiled or laughed. She just didn't have joy. How could you? And eventually she started acting out at school. And when she turned 16 years old, she had left school because she had found a job working on a cleaning crew at a holiday camp. Okay. Not a glamorous job, not well paying, but the location of the camp meant that she would be able to get the fuck away from Fred and Rose. So it was her ticket out. And it would be for a few months. Right. So she was like, Get me gone. I don't give a shit. What you need me to do, just get me out of this house.

And it was probably some plan where she was thinking, I can save up this much money and go on to the next thing.

I can get the fuck out. Now, unfortunately, the day before she was about to leave for the camp, the job fell through. No. And she was devastated.

Devastated. She must have just been sitting there being like, what the fuck is this life?

And she must have been sitting there before it fell through, fantasizing about this new life she could have away from them. You start picturing. Just like Allison with the farm. When you think something's coming. Exactly. Like Allison with the farm. It's like, and we can all relate to the idea of when you think something's happening and you're like, oh, I'm so excited for this thing. And then it falls through.

It's awful.

And most of us only know that on the most micro of scales.

I'm just so bummed.

Oh, I get to meet this cool, like I get to meet my idol. You know what I mean? And you're like, Oh, I'm so excited. It's going to be so much fun. And then all of a sudden it falls through and you're like, Oh. I had pictured myself meeting this part or doing this thing.

But then you think of all the weight that came with this of like, it's my escape from my- Of the incredibly abusive, toxic household.

Measurable trauma that I've been facing my entire life.

It's her ticket to personal autonomy. Yes.

And it's like, oh. When I read that, I was like, I feel it in my gut. Like the gut punch of that. Oh, I feel so bad. Now, the next day, June 19th, 1987, May said goodbye to Heather and left for school. When she came home, she expected to find her sister still upset, but Heather was gone. Now, May asked her parents where she went, and Fred told her that Heather had received a call from the camp and the job was back on. So Heather packed up a few things and got the fuck out of there. Now, this was supposed to be a positive thing, but May said something didn't hit right for her. She could tell. Immediately, these kids, as much as they're their parents, since they just dealt with this stuff. They know their parents, too. They know what their parents are. All of them had their parents numbers. Every single fucking one of them.

Well, and they've also seen people come on as like, nannies and then just fucking disappear forever.

And they've heard shit. They've heard shit. There's no way they're not hearing. Screaming. Screaming. Crying. Crying. Like, horrible stuff. They know what their parents are capable of. They've experienced it. They've seen it. They've witnessed it. They've heard it. They've experienced it personally.

Right. And they're probably so much more connected than even like A typical sibling duo because they have that shared experience of trauma.

That bond of trauma. And so May knew immediately something's wrong here. She said her father seemed almost cheerful about sharing the news, but she said Rose seemed very upset about Heather leaving.

That's her daughter.

Which Fred explained away as her being just disappointed that Heather, that she thought Heather was going to be staying, but now she's not. So she's sad that she's leaving.

Was Rose involved with the sexual abuse of her kids in way of participating, or was that just Fred?

She definitely... She was involved in, at the very least, a bystander of letting it happen. Because, and again, some of the things that were done to some of these kids, Anne-Marie, in particular, was out in the open for everybody to see.

Okay.

And it was horrific.

I mean, How do you not step in and protect your kid?

Because you're a fucking monster. Rose is a monster. She is an absolute- She's a monster right along with Fred. She gets no, nothing. I'm just like, how do you not have that motherly instinct linked after carrying a baby in your room for nine fucking months? I don't get it.

I really don't. And then just to let a man do that and to stand there and do nothing?

Yeah. I mean- That's your kid. Because I didn't read too far into how she participated. Yeah. But she certainly is not- At the very least, she didn't stop it. And she's certainly not a passive person in any of that. She's very much actively, at least in some way, shape, or form.

That's so heinous.

He's fucking terrible. So the West children had spent, again, their entire lives being manipulated, lied to and abused by their parents, especially their father. So even though they knew he wasn't telling the truth about Heather, they knew this was a lie. It's just like, what can they do? They also knew you don't push him. So we're not going to push him.

Because then you'll be in the same position.

Yeah. And they're like, who knows what's going to happen? Now, in the days and weeks after that, Fred and Rose went out of their way to reinforce their story that Heather had simply gone away and would be coming back. She was going to be coming back.

Yeah, because like you said, it was only a month long gig. Yeah, this isn't forever.

They would receive phone calls in the night, apparently from some drunken woman that they claimed was Heather. And then they would get in an argument on the phone and hang up with her, and the children were like, okay, I guess she's all right and she's going to be home. Like, they couldn't figure out. They were playing this twisted game. But after a few months, they became concerned that Heather was not going to be coming back. And in an attempt to quiet concerns, Fred and Rose continued this charade that simply Heather had decided not to come home now. She went to this camp, and now she wants to stay for longer. And, in fact, she's so mad at us now. She's had enough of this house, apparently. She's like, they decided to shit all over and be like, she's just like, whatever. She's turned on us. And now she doesn't want to have any contact with us at all.

Gee, I wonder why, if that was actually the case.

May knew this was a lie. But what was What are you going to do? And she was like, Honestly, all my parents did was lie to me. Right. Like, they just lied and manipulated. So she's like, What else is new? I can't say anything. I don't know what else to say to anybody. Like, all the kids were handling it differently. So they all had to retreat in themselves. Now, Heather never came home. Obviously. And May never saw her sister again. And in time, May and her siblings would learn that their sister didn't leave for a job in 1987, but was, in fact, killed by their parents. Now, in his interview with police, Fred told investigators that... He's such a fucking asshole. This is their new story. He told investigators that they thought that their daughter was actually a lesbian and was planning to leave with a woman on the night she went missing. So he said, Heather told him, and he quotes, If you don't let me fucking go, I'll give all the kids acid, and they'll all jump off the church roof and kill themselves. Seems legit. Seems legit, right? And Fred claimed that that sent him into a rage, and he grabbed her by the neck and began choking her.

And he told detectives, I can't even remember what happened, but the next minute she's blue. No, incorrect. Yeah. He then said, When she was dead, he dismembered Heather's body and buried her remains in the garden. His daughter. Mm-hmm.

Dismembered his daughter.

Now, May says she never believed that story for a fucking second.

Also, now I'm just trying to tally it. I'm pretty sure he's killed three his kids at this point. Or two. Because he didn't kill Charmaine.

But he's killed... Shirley was pregnant. And Anne. And Anne. Yeah.

So the fact that we can't even tally up how many of his own children that he's killed.

Yeah, because he's killed born. Unborn. Several pregnant women. Unborn. Children. Pregnant with his child.

And we're talking eight months pregnant with- Brutally tortured and murdered. In fact, in both cases, he waited- Very long. Very long.

To the pregnancy. Yeah. Yeah.

That's a whole different pathology.

Yeah. That's something that should be stud. Something's happening there. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Now, May never believed this story either. No. And neither did investigators. No. It doesn't make any sense. Investigators were like, Fuck off. Detectives had two theories as to Heather's death, both easily plausible. In the first, they believe Fred attempted to sexually assault his daughter, and when she resisted, he began choking her. Yeah. This theory was supported by the fact that Heather was buried naked. Like the other victims, she had no clothing. No clothing was found in the grave. Also, like the other victims, there were several bones missing from her hands and feet as well. Really? The second theory is that Heather had become a liability, and they feared that she would, or maybe she threatened to tell someone about the abuse that had been occurring in the home for well over a decade. Right. Now, regardless of what the motive for her murder was, Heather would be the final body buried in West garden, and it would be her disappearance that would actually bring an end to their killing spree. Okay. Now, it's unclear why, and this is really wild, there was an eight-year gap in the murders between Allison Chambers and Heather.

Really? Eight years. And what they think is it's entirely possible that they killed other women and buried them elsewhere. Yeah. Because they also were, frankly, running out of room at their own place. Well, yeah. I mean, they run out of room in the basement. And we're now filling the garden.

And I don't know what the neighbor situation is, like how close they are to other homes.

They're pretty close. So it's like they don't have a ton of space. Right. So I would bet a lot of money that there are other victims around that they will eventually, hopefully find. Now, what is clear, though, is that Heather's murder was definitely different from the other victims as well. Like Anna McFall, it seems that Heather was killed in their eyes to solve a problem that they saw being discovered. They didn't want to be found out. This wasn't entirely one of their sexual sadist, killing for sexual gratification murders. Whenever anyone would ask about Heather in the years after this, Fred and Rose would give some variation of the unexpected employment or the lesbian lover story, which typically satisfied whoever was asking. And then the disappearance was just never truly investigated. It at first.

It really is so awful that that was their way of... Obviously, it's not degrading to be a lesbian. I'm not saying that. But they were treating it like it was. But in their view, they're like, Oh, let's say she's a lesbian because that's a bad thing. You can tell that's why they're doing it. To be like, Oh, she's just a fucking lesbian.

Yeah, they were like, Uh. And he's basically saying she was a lesbian and she was violent. Yeah. And I had to kill her to save us all. Which is ridiculous. Which is this violent lesbian. And it's like, no.

It's like you're degrading her even in death. Yeah.

Like, No. Now, Fred and Rose had gotten away with so many horrific crimes over the years that they probably assumed Heather's murder was just one more girl that no one was going to miss. Their own child. Shaking my head right now. That might have been true had it not been for the courage of one of Fred's sexual assault victims who eventually came forward with her story and began an investigation that would literally unearth the secrets of 25 Cromwell Street. In the spring of 1992, just a few weeks after the death of Fred's father, a 13-year-old girl who lived in the neighborhood divulged to a friend that Fred West had sexually assaulted her, but she didn't want to go to the police.

Thirteen years old.

He's a fucking monster. I hope wherever he is, I hope he is just living in a cyclic loop. Perpetory. Of fucking brutal torture. I really do.

That he doesn't enjoy.

Yeah, exactly. No, he didn't. I don't think he enjoyed it. I think he enjoyed it. Being the love. Yeah. But this girl's friend sat with the information for a few days before eventually going to her mother, who in turn informed a local police officer.

Audible lets you enjoy all your audio entertainment in one app. You'll always find the best of what you love or something new to discover. They offer an incredible selection of audiobooks across every genre, from bestsellers, new releases to celebrity memoirs, mysteries and thrillers, motivation, malness, business, and more. Audible is the destination for thrilling audio entertainment with highly anticipated new releases and next listen recommendations to habituate every type of thriller listener. Keep your heart rate up month after month with this pulse-pound collection you can't hear anywhere else. I am about three quarters of the way through murder Your Employer: The Mick Masters Guide to Homicide, and it is so freaking good. Stop everything you're doing and listen to this title right now. It's literally narrated by Neil Patrick Harris and Simon Vance. And something about Neil Patrick Harris's voice is just so soothing to me. As an Audible member, you can choose one title a month to keep from the entire catalog, including the latest bestsellers and new releases. New members can try Audible free for 30 days. Visit audible. Com/morbid or text morbid to 500-500. That's audible. Com/morbid. Morbid, or text morbid to 500-500 to try Audible free for 30 days.

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A blood bath tonight in the rural town of Chinook. Everyone here is hiding a secret.

Four morbidums found scattered. Some worse than others. I came as fast as I could.

I'm Deputy Ruth Vogtle.

And soon, my quiet life will never be the same.

You can listen to Chinook exclusively on Wondery Plus.

Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify podcasts.

Now, the tip about the West prompted an investigation, which was led by veteran Detective Hazel Savage, which is such a cool name. Love it. This investigator, this detective, had experience working sex crimes and crimes involving children. So perfect person to get involved in this. Wow. At first, the case seemed a little straightforward, a single incident of sexual assault, a horrific crime, but one that they could easily just go forward with. But the more she dug into the family's background, the scarier and stranger that the story became. But it all started with a story told by one of the West's children. Now, when the complaint against Fred and Rose was initially made, the children were immediately removed from the home and placed in foster care, which I was like, my God, that should have happened a long time ago. Yeah, for real. While they were there, one of the children told one of the social workers that their father often threatened them with violence, saying, If you ever talked about what went on in the house, they would be killed and buried under the patio, just like their sister, Heather. So he would literally say that to his children, I'll fucking kill you and bury you under the patio like Heather.

Oh, my God.

These poor kids. I can't.

Your brain can't even put that together. No. Of, you will be buried next to your sister, my daughter, whom I killed.

Who I killed.

Like, my brain is just all over the place right now.

And also to me, that puts a lot more weight on the idea that Heather might have said, I'm leaving, I'm telling, or they had some weird idea that she was going to. That response. That's where she was killed.

Absolutely. I agree with you.

Now, Fred would later claim that was just a joke. A funny dad joke. And he explained that Heather had run off with a female lover. She was a lesbian, everybody. That's what he keeps trying to claim. But by then, the story had changed so many times, and the comments about the patio made everything seem way more suspicious. So in her initial interview, Rose was cagey about Heather's disappearance. And whenever she was asked directly why she hadn't reported her daughter missing, she would answer, I don't know, or, I don't remember. She's a... I can't. Like, fuck off. She's an asshole. After repeated questioning, Rose finally said, I can remember now why I didn't pursue Heather because things pointed to her being a lesbian.

Meanwhile, fucking Rose herself is interested in women, too. So what is your fucking problem here?

That's what it is. It's all this fucked up loop of being... Of hating themselves.

Yeah.

And taking that hate out on other people.

Yeah, it's- That's exactly it.

And it's totally putting it out on other people.

It's just making me so mad that they're putting that on her afterwards and acting like it's a bad thing when Rose very much came on to other women.

Yeah. Aggressively. In such an aggressive manner.

And like, I'm just like, and now you're saying, Oh, I didn't report her missing because she was a lesbian.

Well, and it's literally a mother saying, I didn't report my child missing because she was a lesbian. Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. Do you think that makes you look better? Right. You fucking asshole.

Like, fuck you, Rose. And sitting there- Fuck you. Oh, both of them. Yeah. Sitting there saying not knowing full well what happened to her for her whole life, how she was killed, and where she is. Yeah. She's under your fucking porch.

She's under your fucking porch.

You wake up every single morning over your daughter's dead body. Yes. You fucking pig.

A true pig.

I'm just so mad right now.

True pig. It's like, true fucking hog's pig. Just blah.

It's so filthy.

It is. That's the thing. It just gets worse and worse. Now, throughout the rest of 1992 and most of 1993, investigators continued building their case against Fred, and eventually, he was charged with three counts of rape of a minor, with Rose being charged as an accomplice. Wow. But they remained free on bail pending the trial.

A rapist?

A child rapist.

A child rapist on three fucking counts? Where are they?

Yeah, like what's happening?

What fucking county is this?

Now, in the meantime, the Department of Social Services continued their search for Heather West, interviewing the children as they went for more information. And the process was very slow going. At first, it was yielding very little information. But eventually, they had gathered enough testimony from the children because that's also a delicate process. It's a slow process. You don't want to retraumatize them. Right.

You're asking them to personally give you a testimony and a narrative of what they've gone through.

That's a lot, even for grown-ass adults to do. That's a lot.

And you're doing it while their life has just been like, of ended in so many ways.

Exactly. But they had eventually gathered enough testimony from the children as well as other witnesses, and they strongly suspected that there was vital evidence of murder in the house on Cromwell Street. Yeah. So in late February 1994, Hazel Savage applied for a warrant that would allow investigators to search the West house and garden for evidence of Heather West, and the application was granted.

Hazel Savage forever.

Hazel fucking Savage. Now, with the search warrant secured, it seemed only a matter of digging in the yard. But investigators had no idea where to look. The process was further complicated by all the alterations that Fred had made to the house and the extensive stonework in the backyard. Also, when detectives came to the house to present the warrant, Rose and several of the older children did everything they could to stall the investigators, which would buy them enough time for Fred to come home and stop the search, make a big fuss out of everything. Again, very clearly, you have to note these these older children remember what they've gone through.

They've been abused their whole lives and brainwashed and every horrible thing.

They're doing what they've been taught to do.

Absolutely. They probably did not believe for a second any of these claims. They're fucking terrified.

They're terrified. They've been scared since they came into the world, they've lived nothing but fear and horror and sadness and loneliness and isolation and pain and just any horrible thing you can think of. They've lived it their entire lives from the two people who are supposed to provide the safest place for them. So I put nothing on them to have the average reactions that any of us would have at all. Now, despite their protests, Rosen and Fred's, were did begin on the West's backyard on February 24th.

They're like, We have a fucking warrant, so move you back.

Yeah, they're like, Fuck you. We're digging a bottle away. And they began with a hole dug in the back corner, and they were going to just slowly move forward. The work was very slow, but they were very methodical it. It kept getting stalled and interrupted and fucked up by Fred and Rose because they kept interfering and arguing with investigators whenever they could. They just kept trying to fuck it up. I was like, okay, cool.

Why don't you go sit in jail then and wait your fucking sentencing for your fucking thing that you're on bail for right now?

Because you're interfering with an investigation. Yeah, you should be arrested.

Yeah, you should be arrested. Go sit in a fucking jail cell.

But after a few days, it did seem to have dawned on Fred that he wasn't going to be able to stop this search and that they were going to discover A lot. And he was like, They're also going to move into the house. They have a warrant for the house as well. So they're going into that basement and they're going to find that. So given that, it probably seemed no use in keeping up the charade. So Fred went to Detective Savage and told her they may as well bring him in. And they hadn't found anything yet. And he was like, You know what? You might as well bring him in. I mean, they were going to. As they led Fred from the house. Now, he walked up to Hazel Savage and said, You might as well bring me in because you're going to find shit. And she was like, Awesome. Okay. They led him from the house to the police car, and he made a large public spectacle, protesting, screaming, and being like, I didn't kill her. Like, acting like he didn't just walk up to somebody and say, You might as well bring me in because there's going to be a ton of stuff here.

And acting like it's not going to come out very soon when they're done with this whole excavation process, that there are however many numerous bodies outside. And then when they move inside, however many bodies are inside.

That the basement is literally filled.

The point that you ran out of room. I don't really know what you're doing here because all of this is coming to light within weeks.

Well, also they got him in the car, closed the door, and he shut right up. And he immediately confessed to murdering Heather.

Yeah.

So there you go. So he all the way to the car, I didn't kill her. How dare you? I didn't kill her, gets in the car and he's like, I did. I killed her. Can you imagine being involved in that? And then he literally looked at Savage and he said, Detective Savage, you're digging in the wrong place.

What a pompous asshole.

Like, What a fucking asshole. And also like, What the fuck is wrong with you? Now, it's possible that Fred thought he could prevent the discovery of the other bodies if he confessed to the murder of Heather and pointed detectives away from the other graves. He thought maybe they'll stop after they got Heather.

Yeah, Totally.

But by then, the stories had changed so many times, and there was so much circumstantial evidence that Detective Savage and the others definitely thought that Fred wasn't telling the whole truth, so they were not going to stop at that. And at this point, they have no idea.

What's it anyway?

What is in store for them? They are looking for Heather. So that's why he thought they'll stop after that. How could they ever know that I have twelve other bodies in this house?

Meanwhile, it's like, dude, what if they don't even find Heather first and they find someone else?

Well, he was trying to lead them right to Heather so that they would stop.

Like, how do you even remember?

Now, whatever Fred's motive, his plan didn't work. Investigators continue digging in the backyard, obviously, because if you can kill your own child, you are capable of a lot, you fucking idiot.

Obviously. Also, Can you imagine living next door to this and being like, oh my God.

That was there the entire time?

How many?

Twelve bodies, 13 bodies were in this house?

I wave to all my neighbors constantly. I'm like, Hey, hey, hey. Being like, I just wave to that man every fucking morning.

As he walked out and stood on top of his child?

Literally. In the ground? And countless other bodies.

And dismembered all these people, too. Their neighbors are probably sitting there being in that house at night. Sometimes when a light was on, they were sawing apart a body.

Yeah.

Sometimes their own child. Right. And I was just going to sleep.

It would be so hard to stay.

Having no idea.

It would be so hard to stay. Like, your house isn't even where the horrors happened. I feel like I would have such a hard time staying in my own house after that.

I would have trouble staying in that neighborhood. I would have trouble. And I think there was a lot of people that had a lot of... That was a big source of just really bad vibes and really bad stuff. Oh, yeah. Like, after this, people were horrified that it standing. I mean, looking at that house afterwards, I can't imagine. No. Just knowing the horrors that happened there.

It's so dark. Dark isn't even the word for it.

Because it's not just murder, it's sexual assault, it's rape, it's child abuse, it's child sexual assault. I mean, the things that were found in that house are beyond comprehension.

And just the energy surrounding the entire place must have just been abysmal.

Yeah. But the investigators kept digging up the backyard, and within a week, they discovered not one, but two sets of remains in the West's backyard. And a day later, a third was discovered, and the third set of remains were identified as Heather West.

So they didn't even find Heather first.

They didn't even find her first. Now, on February 27, 1994, Fred and Rose West were arrested for murder. When the discovery in the garden was announced to the press, the Police and Missing Persons Bureau was flooded with calls from around the country, all with people with loved ones who'd gone missing. And they were like, potentially, are they in that backyard?

They got to have to make that call is my loved one in that garden?

Yeah, I can't even think of it.

How do you?

Bureau Director, Christopher Dre, told the press, We have been inundated with calls. We have 19 lines, and during yesterday, they were engaged constantly. As the search kept going, local residents watched in absolute horror, these neighbors, as one body after another was taken from this home. They just watched being like, What the fuck? At the same time, Steven and one of the other siblings, West siblings, began speaking to reporters to try to defend their parents. And in the interview with the Gloster Echo, Steven repeated the story about Heather running off and insisted she was still alive. And he said, We would not live here if we thought they had murdered her. No, of course you wouldn't. That tells you the depth of how they're being abused here. Abused they were. Like, they have been taught to be this way.

And they're probably just desperate to think to themselves.

And they want to believe she's alive.

I would never have been in this house if I knew she was If I knew that they killed my sister.

But as the days went on, it was getting harder to defend Fred and Rose. And by the end of the first week of March, the ninth body had been removed from the West house. And investigator, and this was within only a couple of weeks. My God. And investigators expected to find more in the basement.

So that was just the backyard. That was the yard. Nine bodies in the yard.

By that point, Fred had been formally charged with the murder of Heather and the murder of former loader, Shirley Ann Robinson. But detectives fully expected that there were going to be way more charges to come. The growing number of bodies and the very slow identification process led to a great deal of speculation, especially around the disappearance of Mary Bastolm many years earlier. Mary's brother Peter said, and this is so sad, he said, In some ways, it would be a relief if police identify her as it would stop the wondering and we would be able to hold a funeral for her. Yeah. To have to think like that's, I guess, our best case scenario at this point.

That's so awful.

By mid-March, all the bodies had been removed from the house, but there was still a lot of work to be done to identify all of them. In the meantime, Fred must have realized that things were looking pretty bad because he started speaking to investigators, mistakenly believing that he could explain a way the twelve dead bodies discovered in his house. But Fred's statements would eventually prove pretty useful in the identification process. Luckily, he He didn't mean to. It just happened. But he was really stupid. He was not intelligent, and he was really a bad liar, to be honest. He was able to lie to vulnerable people. But when somebody's trying to detect one and looking for it. And he's a trained investigator. He's pretty bad at it. So his interviews were really vague. They were sometimes confusing, very frustrating interviews.

He's also not dealing with younger people.

Exactly. Younger people who have already been through things and are vulnerable and will believe a lot more because they've been through a lot more. These are seasoned investigative adults. Now, by the end of March, Fred had been charged with nine murders. And by the end of June, when the victims had finally been identified, he was formally charged with 11 counts of first-degree murder. Now, while Fred kept talking to investigators about the women found in the house, Rose had also started talking to detectives. And at that point, interviews with the West's extended family and several of the children revealed that she was not a fucking unfortunate victim.

Yeah, she was trying to make herself wet. Yeah.

The extended family and all the children were like, uh-uh. No, she's been here the whole time. Rose was a very willing participant in the violence.

Sometimes she was the one that initiated it.

Yeah, she was just as bad. Now, sensing that she was soon going to be under investigation herself, Rose turned on Fred, which tells you exactly who she is, and started giving investigators any information that they asked for and hoped that she might be spared.

This really is so akin to Myra.

It really is. Immediately turned. Like, wow. Which you're like, because you're not fucking human. You don't have human emotions. You don't love each other. No, you don't love. You don't love each other. That's not what that is.

You don't know what love is.

You're out for number one. Rose's betrayal created further fractures in the family. As Steven responded, the son Steven responded to her betrayal by going to a reporter from the news of the world and giving an exclusive interview about what he experienced and what he saw.

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On June 30th, Fred and Rose West appeared before a judge in Gloucester Magistrate's Court, the first time they'd seen each other since Fred's arrest in February. They were jointly charged with nine counts of first-degree murder, among other things.

Why only nine if they found more bodies?

I think they were still trying to identify people. Oh, okay. They were jointly charged with nine counts of first-degree murder, among various other things. And Fred was charged with the additional murders of Rina and Charmaine. Oh, okay. Because he did those. On his own? Presumably on his own.

Well, actually, Rose killed Charmaine, right?

That's what we think. But he ended up- I think he ended up.

I mean, not that I'm like, Oh, no, Fred shouldn't have charged him in charge for that.

No, of course not.

I'm just like, Wait a second.

I think it was just going off of evidence. But in Also, remember, he was the one who disposed of Charmaine's body and dismembered her. Yes. So there was that. I don't know what the lead up. And again, we don't know the details of the lead up to that. We presume that Rose was in a Her rage killed that little girl. Now, as the summer turned to fall, it must have occurred to Fred that things were really bad for him at this point. No matter what, he told investigators about supposedly consensual sexual encounters and relationships.

Why are they all dead in your garden, dude?

Accidents. Got it. He kept saying they were all...

You're so unfortunate.

Yeah, it's wild. But no matter what he was saying, he'd left a trail of bodies in three locations and no lies or excuses were going to be enough to spare him the absolute harshest penalties available. He wasn't getting out of it.

What are you even thinking at that point? Yeah.

Now, it hit him. I mean, he knew there's no getting out of it. I'm going to get the worst. Whatever they can give me, I'm going to get it. So on the afternoon of January first, 1995, just before 1:00 PM, a prison officer at Winson Green Jail in Birmingham went to check on Fred and found him hanging from a noose that he'd fashioned from his own shirt.

That makes me so angry. That motherfucker should have been on 24/7 surveillance before he got to do anything.

Well, so medical personnel tried for 30 minutes to revive him, but their efforts were useless. He was dead. But Fred had been on suicide watch since the hearing in July. But in December, those restrictions had been lifted. He was no longer deemed high risk. So he had on suicide watch for months.

And then the second he got off of it.

The second it was lifted. In fact, the asshole seemed to be in high spirits the night before his death. He played pool. He was celebrating the New Year with the other inmates.

He was celebrating his last fucking day on Earth.

One of the guards told reporters he seemed completely normal. It was just like any other day. Wow. Now, this is the only thing that's good, I guess, is that the news of Fred's death was met with resounding cheers from nearly everyone who'd been affected by his murder. So that is good. So as long as they're happy, that's good enough for me. Allison Chambers' mother, Joan Owens, said, This is the best news I've heard for a long time. After all the evil things he did, that's supposed to be the only good thing he ever did. Anyone who can do what he did and then walk around and act as if nothing happened is truly evil. Absolutely. Anne-marie's husband, Chris Davis, was very enthusiastic about the news, calling Fred's suicide a great result and saying he will rot in hell for what he did. He deserves everything that's waiting for him. He sure does. And I say agreed.

Here, here, chin, chin.

Here, here. Now, although Fred's suicide meant that he was not going to be legally held accountable for the crimes he committed, nearly everyone seemed to take the news well, including those who worked in the justice system, to be honest.

Well, and if you think about it, it's like he's able to sit there in fucking jail and play pool and shoot the shit with other in me. It's like he shouldn't have that ability. Now he can rot in the ground. So you know what? Rot in the ground. Rot in jail.

Yeah, rote and heel. Now, the massive investigation had taken a huge financial toll on... I always say this wrong, and I apologize. I'm going to try to say it right. Gloucestershire. Gloucestershire Justice System. I hope I said that right for you guys. It was an immense strain on the municipality's resources. I mean, they were struggling through this. So if nothing else, it saved everyone a lot of time, money, and heartache. Well, that's good. So to which I say... Everyone involved teams.

See you. Yeah, honestly, everybody involved teams fine with it.

So that's all I'll take.

At first I was like, Come on.

Well, and that's honestly, I see why you said that, because there is a part of it that you're like, fuck. He didn't face the music. Well, and also his death presented a big problem for the Crown prosecution service because they were intending to prosecute Rose. With Fred unable to corroborate any of the statements he'd made regarding her participation in the murders, they weren't admissible in court anymore, his statements. And they would to rely on Rose's statements alone. That's not good. So that sucks. Now, despite pressure to drop the charges against Rose, which would save obviously a lot of time and money, Detective Superintendent John Bennett, who was in charge of the case, reassured the families that the case against Rose was going forward.

That's a real one right there.

He said, Whilst financed must always be a consideration with any investigation or inquiry, it is always secondary to the result of any of the inquiries we have undertaken. We are totally committed to the care of the victim's families with this case. That's incredible. Now, Rose's trial began October 3, 1995 at Winchester Crown Court in Hampshire before Justice Charles Mantell. I like Justice Charles Mantell.

You have to wonder where that other justice was that throughout the first sexual case.

I'm like, Where are you? Where are you? Because let's smack him in the face a little bit.

But I'm glad we have a justice now that we like here.

He's good. Now, arguing for the Crown was prosecutor Brian Leveson, while Rose's defense team was led by Richard Ferguson. In the months leading up to the trial, the defense made a lot of attempts to get it thrown out completely. Which I'm like, How do you fucking sleep at night? I'm sorry. I know we've gone through this, and I know I'll get a ton of messages that are like, That's our job. I know that. I realized that. This one, though, you're like... This one, I don't understand. I know it's their job. I get that. Mama's not innocent, though. But I personally don't... I could never.

Mama's not innocent, and I'm sorry, but you all don't believe that she is.

But they were trying to get it thrown out on the logical idea that given the intense and lured press coverage since the arrest, there was no way that Rose was going to get a fair trial. Well, I don't care. But the judge said, disagree. The case was allowed to proceed, which I love that the judge was like, Yeah, that... No, I don't think so. I think it's good.

Maybe don't be involved in murdering that many people and you'll find a fair trial. Oh, you won't actually have to have a trial.

Yeah, because you thought. How about that? Now, in his opening statement to the jury, Justice Mantell reminded them that they were expected to leave behind all preconceptions, prejudice, and sentiment that they had about the defendant and based their decisions entirely on the case as it was presented in court.

So we did his due diligence.

He says, Enter upon your very heavy responsibility in a clear-cut way, unaffected by anything you may have read about this case, which certainly has its sensational aspects.

Can you imagine sitting on this jury?

No. With his statement out of the way, the clerk read the charges against Rose and the most significant of those charges were the 10 counts of first-degree murder for the deaths of... Because she was eventually charged with Charmaine. Charmaine West, Linda Goff, Carol Cooper, Lucy Partington, Therese Siegenthaler, Shirley Hubbard, Juanita Mott, Shirley Ann Robinson, Allison Chambers, and Heather West. When you hear all the names, it's like... Horrifying. It is. And these are all young girls.

Who had their whole lives ahead of them.

In his opening statement, Brian Leveson laid out the facts for the jury in grizzly detail, emphasizing the fact that Rose had been a very enthusiastic and active participant in the brutally violent sexual torture and murder of at least 10 women. He said, The picture which I shall describe, revealed by the evidence and the material, including photographs you will see, is in places horrific and harrowing. I do not do this to shock or provoke sympathy, but so that you have an entire picture against which to decide the case. Now, Leveson began his story with the murder of Heather West, and then he worked backwards. He provided details on all the other nine women Rose was accused of killing. He said, For the rest, their last moments on Earth were as objects of the sexual depravity of this woman and her husband. Yup. Which I think is a perfect way of describing it. It is so bone-chilling and so fucking gut-wrenching, but it's the truth.

It paints the picture of, look at this fucking monster sitting before you.

She treated them as objects.

She very much did. I mean, the fact that they covered their faces the way they did.

She was part of everything. Yeah. One after another, the expert witnesses told the evidence collected in the West home. This included several homemade torture devices. Are you kidding me? And sexual props, and also a variety of pornographic materials that included the abuse of children and animals. Oh, my God. You can't think of something worse than them. No.

And it's like every gross, horrific, nasty thing that exists. They were in it. That was their thing. They were in it.

Also, forensic experts and several pathologists were called to the stand. All of them did their best to explain the evidence discovered on the bodies exhumed from the graves at both the West Homes and the field where Anne McFall and Rena West were buried. Now, arguing in Rose's defense, Richard Ferguson claims Rose was innocent and was as much a victim as Fred as anyone else. Please. He said he abused Abused her as he abused everyone else in his evil life. He said, It is because of him that she is before the court.

No, it's not.

Testifying in her own defense.

Girl, bye.

Rose told the jury about her difficult upbringing and her own experiences with sexual violence that had led her to trust a man like Fred West. She said, He promised me the world. He promised me everything. Because I was so young, I fell for his lies. He promised to love and care for me, and I fell for it. Okay, girl, sure. That's how you entered into this with Fred. Exactly. I'll give you that.

Yeah.

But you became- What the fuck are you doing now? Burying another child and murdering it? Yeah. What the fuck are you doing now? Exactly. What are you doing in a house with child abuse images and animal abuse images, torture devices that you made together. Your daughter in the backyard. Explain that because you had a tough upbringing.

Like, plenty of people have a tough upbringing.

People in the courtroom. Somebody raised their hand. Did you have a tough upbringing? Exactly. Did you do this? Like, shut the fuck up, Rose. No, that's absolutely ridiculous.

Shut the fuck up.

To claim a tough upbringing. She was in tears. She cried.

I bet she was.

If it scored any points with the jury, we don't know, because she then had a very combative attitude under cross-examination by the prosecutor, and that didn't help her at all.

I'm sure that's when they saw the real Rose. Of course.

That's when she came out for real. Rose had portrayed herself as a scapegoat for Fred's crimes, saying, I'm the one now in the spotlight. Fred Russ is dead, and I've got to be made responsible for what he has done. Bitch, please. Levison, though, said, Fuck off, Rose. He didn't hesitate. He fired right back saying, It's not everyone dumping everything on you. It's you dumping everything on Fred. You fully participated in each and every murder, didn't you? Yup. It's possible that a 1995 jury could have been sympathetic to the argument put forth by the defense. Absolutely. But the problem was there was no evidence or testimony to back up any of the claims she had of being an innocent victim. Right. Fred and Rose had developed very few social relationships outside of themselves, at least very few that weren't built on sexual exploitation. So there was almost no one who would testify on her behalf. No one. Anybody who testified was testifying against her. There was no one that was going to sit up there and say she was anything but a fucking monster. Good. Also, in the years since the arrests were first made, the family had fractured apart even more with nearly everyone abandoning Fred and Rose.

Well, because at that point, it's like everything's coming to life.

You can't deny.

They're probably at this point processing their own traumas now that they have time to be away from their parents, the monsters. The Monsters.

The result of her very tearful performance was pretty ineffective. Yeah. So she really wasted her time.

You didn't give a fuck for all those girls crying. In fact, you couldn't even see it. You wrapped their head in plastic tape while they cried underneath that. So fuck you.

So fuck you, Rose. But further complicating matters was the multiple witnesses and living who testified that they had been sexually assaulted and abused by both Fred and Rose at their home on Cromwell Street. So she wasn't going to get... I don't know what she...

Good try. That's the thing. They're still living people that you've affected.

That are going to come out and say, Fuck you. You were part of the whole thing. Exactly. Good. When Leveson confronted Rose with the violent sexual assault on Caroline Owens in 1972, Rose responded by saying, Are you ready for this? No. Her response to this?

No.

It was a one-off. It was the one The one mistake I made in my life. I regret it now.

The one mistake. You killed an eight-year-old.

It was a one-off.

You killed a fucking eight-year-old. You sat by and watched your fucking husband kill your daughter. You sat by and you fucking participated in how many other murders, and you want to sit there and call it a run-off?

It was this woman's violent and brutal and horrific and traumatizing sexual assault. A run-off. And torture. Was a one-off.

It's one mistake I made. A mistake is like, Oh, fuck. I just got in like a fenderbender.

Aipsy. A mistake is, Oops, I put someone on an email I shouldn't have. Yeah. That's a mistake. Oups.

My bad.

This? The fact that her mind works that way, that she's like, it was a one-off. Why are you even bringing that up? A one-off. To call that a one-off. Nobody else's one mistake in their life is violently torturing and sexually assaulting a woman. No, sure is not. Sorry, that's not what anybody can describe as a a one-off. Oops, a mistake. No, no, no, no, no, Rose West. It was never just Fred. No. None of these women were getting up there saying, Oh, yeah. And Rose was just around the house or something. No. Rose actively participated. She was in the room doing the same things. Now, in his closing statement, Richard Ferguson, the defense- Shut up. Reminded the jury that they should find his client not guilty. No, I. That didn't mean the murders. Like they said, If you find my client not guilty, that doesn't mean the murders go unpunished. He said, Frederick West provided his own solution. His death has ensured that the relatives of the victims need not worry that their deaths have gone unpunished. If that woman- So that's a weight that's been lifted from your shoulders.

If that woman didn't sit in fucking prison, those families would have been absolutely outraged.

So this man- Don't even pretend for a second. This man stood up there and said she didn't do anything and then said, Fred Rose took care about everybody. Why are you being such bitches about it? He literally sat there and was like, What? He killed himself. Move on. He got punished.

That's exactly what he's saying. He literally was like, he killed himself. He can't hurt you anymore. Why are we here?

That's literally what he's saying here. It's like, what? You don't have to worry anymore. Oh, I don't have to worry? How about all these women? Half of the problem is sitting up here and you're telling me that she could walk.

How about all these women that are sitting here? Oh, yeah. Telling me their experiences. Also, what if she were to meet somebody as equally depressed? Exactly. You're going to tell me that's not going to happen again.

She'll go find it.

She fucking has a type, clearly.

Well, and as he had done through most of the trial, he used his closing arguments to put all of the responsibility on Fred and reminded the jury that the case was almost entirely circumstantial. Then he warned them not to get caught up in the details about Fred and Rose's, quote, unquote, unconvenient Unconventional sex life.

I was like, you said- Unconventional?

Honestly, my antenna is up on you if that's what you call this. I'd be like, somebody needs to go search his fucking hard drive. What's going on there? Unconventional. Unconventional sex life is what you're calling this? That man practiced- I know you got a job. No, totally. I know you got a job to do. You did it. You use the phrase unconventional. You could have omitted that one.

He practiced in his closing arguments before standing up there in front of everybody.

You could have omitted that.

Somebody probably signed off on that and was like, Yeah, good call.

Yeah, that's fine.

What the actual motherfucking fog.

Blew my mind.

Unconventional.

In the end, the jury was, thankfully, pretty unmoved by Ferguson's argument, thankfully. I mean, you never know how something's going to go, but in this, I mean. You're like, Come on, my guy. Yeah. On November 22nd, 1995, Rose West was found guilty of all 10 murders with the judge passing sentence the very same day. Good. And Judge Mantell said, The sentence is one of life in prison. If any attention is paid to what I think, you will never be released. And I was like, Unce, unce, unce, let's go.

Yeah, honestly.

Judge Mantell imposed the maximum penalty allowed by the law, sentencing her to at least 25 years. But in 1997, Home Secretary Jack straw Citing the brutality of the case because it is quite clearly above and beyond most cases.

100%.

He imposed a whole life tariff, meaning Rose would spend the rest of her life in prison.

I've never even heard of that.

Well, this was only the second time the sentence had been imposed on a woman in UK history. Wow. It's because it's so brutal. They were like, You can never leave. We can never let you out.

That's crazy. I want to look up the first person who got it. I know.

I didn't look it up. I should have. But yeah, if you will look it up. Now, Rose maintains her innocence.

Get so fucking fucked into the sun, Rose.

Truly. Fuck off. But since her failed bid at an appeal in 1996, the year that Ash came into this world, she She's declined to pursue any further appeals because one, she knows she's guilty as fuck, and two, she knows she's not getting out.

Interesting, actually. Myra Hinley ended up getting one.

I wondered if it was Myra.

She's not the only one.

I wondered if it was Myra.

There's Myra, and then there's Joanna Dennehy.

Oh, okay.

I'm not sure.

I wondered if Myra was going to be in there. So, Fred and Rose West are among, clearly, the most prolific and shocking and horrific and brutal and sadistic serial killers in UK history, definitely. Their story and those of their victims honestly remains as horrifying and appalling today as it did when they were first arrested, and that's some 30 years ago. But while Rose been in prison since her sentencing, the story has continued to evolve. In 1996, Anne-Marie Davis, the West's oldest daughter, alleged that her uncle, John West, had sexually assaulted her more than 300 times between 1975 and 1980. Oh, no. That's her uncle. According to Anne-Marie, when she complained to Rose about the abuse, her mother laughed and told her, Don't be stupid.

Don't be stupid about what?

John West was arrested and was facing a trial himself when he hanged himself in his garage in November 1996. What? Yeah. Same fate. Wow. Now, two years later, in the spring of 1998, Fred's cousin, William Hill, was arrested and charged with sexually assaulting four young girls in his home in Much Markel in 1976. He was only 24 years old at the time.

Oh, my God. What happened to this family?

This family just has like disgusting shit running deep. What the fuck? He was questioned at the time and denied any involvement, and he wasn't arrested until 1997 when more victims came forward. Oh, no. The fact that there are going to be more people. So they are like this is a pathology throughout this family. It is. And while there's no question that Fred and Rose killed the 12 victims referenced in the court documents, investigators do believe there's more victims. Oh, absolutely. Including Mary Baston. And efforts to recover their bodies have been ongoing as recently as 2021. Wow. Wow. And recently, investigators in Glouceterre have been digging at several sites around the city where Fred was known to have visited, worked, hung out, anything. But as of now, they have yet to find any additional victims.

You really, I mean, you hope that there aren't any additional victims. Yeah, it's a double-edged sword. But I feel like, logic tells you that he didn't go.

That long.

Like these year periods, and even at one point there was an eight-year period. I just don't buy.

That's the thing.

With how sick and twisted they were that they didn't.

Yeah, that's the thing. You don't want to be additional victims, obviously. No. But you also, if there are missing persons that are victims of them, you want them to be found and identified. Yes, exactly. It really is such a double-edged sword. Yeah, it just doesn't make sense that they're going these long periods of time.

I mean, it happens.

Yeah, it's strange.

I just feel like because of their pathology, it was very frenzied. Frenzied.

Very frenzied and very...

It was almost like instinct to them. Yeah, it was- Like a knee jerk thing.

Yep, absolutely. Yeah. It just seems like they wouldn't have taken that time. But who knows?

I'm glad that we got through the whole thing and that we were able to... I feel like you did a really good job of telling each victim's story. I feel like, like I've said, I've heard this case covered before, but I don't think I heard as much detail about each girl.

No, thank you. And honestly, Dave is a absolute... I'm going to canonize him, I think. He's a saint for helping me with this because he was Dead just as like, elbow deep as I was. I think we're both just like, okay, bye.

Okay, bye.

And he was so good at that. And you guys, if you're looking, if you do want to read Anne-Marie West's book is Out of the Shadows. We'll link it in the show notes. And it's harrowing. Like, truly harrowing.

Sounds like she went through so much more than any of us could ever even imagine.

Yeah, it's truly unbelievable.

All right. Well, you promised to do something spooky-yuki or like...

Oh, yeah. I'm taking a little bit of a turn.

We got something spooky coming from you next. Yeah. And I think we'll have a listener tale in between this and the next episode. So that will be a nice little palate cleanser for everyone.

A little bit of a palate cleanser.

And in the meantime, we hope you keep listening.

And we hope you... Keep... It...

Weird. Keep it weird. I'm not going to tell you not to keep it this weird because that would be so silly of me to say because I know you won't keep it as fair.

No. Bye.

If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining WNDRI+ in the WNDRI app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wndri. Com/survey. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run dark. In this new crime thriller, religion and crime collide when this small Montana community is rocked by a gruesome murder. As the town is whipped into a frenzy, everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager. But local Deputy Ruth Vogal isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent Vee B. Laro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. She and Ruth form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone's watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy Award nominee, Santa Leighton, and Star Wars, Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook plungees listeners into the dark underbelly of a small town where the lines between truth and deception are blurred, and even the most devout are not who they seem.

Chinook is available to listen to now exclusively with your Wondery Plus subscription. You can subscribe to Wondery Plus on the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.