Transcript of What Happens When You Die? (Pastoral Response) | Live Free with Josh Howerton

You and I, one day, our faith is going to be made sight. When we see Jesus, it's going to be the first time you and I see Him physically. It will also be the first time of an infinite eternity to come that we get to see Him forever. For an unbeliever, their unbelief is going to be made sight, and it's going to be the first time they see Christ, and the last.

And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back to church, or just looking for a place to start, church online is a great way to jump in and experience what God is doing here at Lakepoint. We would love to see you in the chat this weekend, and now, enjoy the podcast. Well, hey, welcome back to another episode of the Lift Free Podcast. My name is Carlos Arazo, and today I'm excited because I am here with the one and only, the Epistle Missile Chat GPC reloaded on a bonus episode. What's up, dude?

What's up, my man? You good?

I'm good, man. Happy Sunday.

Happy Sunday, man.

We got services going on right now.

Yes, we do.

But we got a bonus episode to record.

Yes, we do. It's going to be a good, good episode. Common question you ask.

Answer it. Who are you?

Q. Dude, hunting season is in. By the way, it's time for us to go out.

It's been, it's been like a year.

It's been a year since you and I were out there together. We got to get you your first. You haven't ever shot a deer, correct?

I've, I've.

A buck. You haven't gotten a buck.

I don't think I have.

Okay. So I'm saying we're going to go back out. But yeah, I wore this in honor of hunting seasons here. It's upon us. Finally, some cooler weather. We're going to get you out there, get you a hog, get you a buck. It's going to be good.

I've only shot a turkey.

That's awesome. I've never shot a turkey.

Oh, okay.

So you've killed something I haven't.

Amen.

So this is great. But yeah, man, got my Q.U. on. We're ready to go. And yeah, man, this is going to be a good episode. We'll get to it in a few minutes. But first, we have something else we think we need to do, right?

Well, what is it?

I think we need to.

We need to honor a group of people, man.

Oh, yes, yes, yes. That's right. Because yeah, because this episode is coming out on Veterans Day, man.

That's right, man.

And we just wanted to take a moment and just honor and thank anyone who has served in our armed forces here in the United States. Man, we have this nation because people are willing to serve and to often lay down their lives for the sake of our freedoms and for our country. And my grandfather was one. My grandfather served during World War II. And just an amazing man I look up to, and so many amazing men and women who have served. And so we just, we thought this was coming out on Veterans Day. We want to take a moment up at the beginning and say, "Hey, thank you for anyone who is serving, but also who has served."

Yeah. And I'm sure we get a lot of listeners from Lift Free as well.

Yes.

So a shout out. Thank you. Hey, today this is, Chat GPC is a good episode because, one, for people that are joining right now, this is not your normal Monday episode. This is a bonus episode. We're trying to test drive these shorter episodes where we pick one question and we just kind of try to tackle it, go a little deeper. So a couple of things before we start. First of all, I've talked to some people in the lobby. By the way, Paul, we get a lot of people from Lift Free coming to Lakepoint all the time.

Yep.

We love that. So if that's you, come visit. We love to say hi. Every time I talk to somebody, they're like, "Hey, Carlos, great to meet you. But where's Paul? But where's Chat GPC?" And I'm like, "Hey, good to meet you too." And so, man, everybody just wants to meet you.

Hey, man, it's the same thing.

I'm happy to point them in your direction.

If they've met me but haven't met you, well, you know what we start doing? We look for you. And the first thing I do, I tell them is, "Look up. Look up." So like, in other words, like if we're in the lobby of one of our campuses, like if we're trying to find him, I'm like, just tell them to look up because they don't realize how tall of a guy you are in person.

Well, we get a lot of good feedback. And what I've heard from some people, and we'll see, maybe that was just a few, but they're saying that the juice is worth the squeeze.

Yes, when it's hurting.

And so that's encouraging. So we want to, we're still test driving these, so let us know if the test drive becomes a permanent drive. So share, like, and comment. That helps us know this is helpful. Also, if you have a recommendation for a future episode or a question, just go ahead and drop it in the comment section on Spotify or YouTube. And because we love to give stuff away, comment "hat," and we got some free merch to give away as well. Paul, the question for today's episode is, you ready for it?

I'm ready for it. Come on.

I'm excited for this one because it's more important than people realize.

Yeah.

What happens when you die? So here's what we're going to do. We're going to watch a viral video of a church leader at Emanuel Episcopal Church in Kentucky. This video went viral recently, almost a million views. We're going to respond to what this lady is saying. And then we're going to talk about some pastoral tips in terms of how to engage a conversation with somebody like that's asking this question, "What happens when you die?" We're going to talk about some watch-outs when reading the Bible. There is a biblical way of reading the Bible, and there is an unbiblical way of doing that.

Yeah, it's such an important question because this is such a personal question. And I've gotten this one quite often in the past. And some people, when they face this question, it's because they are personally facing death or getting near to death.

Right.

Other times, people ask it because, not because they're facing death in the sense of they looks like they're going to die, but because they're facing the death of someone close to them who has died. And so there might be moments where someone stands at a gravesite or a funeral of a family member or of a friend, and it's natural, in addition to feeling the grief of their loss, to wonder, "Well, hey, what is on the other side? What actually happens when we die?" So this is a very practical question, and it's a very personal question.

That's right.

And the good news that we're going to go ahead and give a little spoiler alert right here is that if you're a believer in Jesus, there is good news.

That's a great news.

Great news. And there is hope. And death does not have to be something that we fear because of what Christ has done for us. So there is a good answer to this, but you kind of gave a hint at it. There is a bad way to answer this question. And do you want to go ahead? Do we want to go ahead and transition to that and show them maybe a bad way to answer this?

We have the video. We're going to watch the video first. But let me just give you a little context of the video so we know what we're watching here. So the video we're about to watch, this right here is Reverend Ryan Ashley Bloyd Weissman. And she is, according to her church's website, she is the, quote, "priest in charge at Emanuel Episcopal Church in Winchester, Kentucky." Shout out, Kentucky. And the church.

Pastor Josh's home state.

That's right, man. Let's kick this pig.

As a Duke fan, you know, Kentuckian, I don't always get along, but it's all good.

This church right here is a small affirming Episcopal congregation that emphasizes welcome for LGBTQ+ people and has hosted or planned events such as drag shows in its facilities. Not great. Not great.

And you're explaining this now because in a few minutes, we want to connect this to another thing and understanding how you need to process sometimes what people say like this.

Giving you a little context.

Yeah, yeah.

And then she will also share a quick story of somebody in her church who asked her the question that we're answering today, "What happens when you die?" So let's go ahead and play it.

Let's watch it.

I don't know what happens when we die. No one really does. Hi, I'm Ryan, an Episcopal priest in Winchester, Kentucky. Last week or two weeks ago, I was sitting with an older congregant, and that congregant asked me what happens when we die. I had to look this person in the face who is obviously struggling and say, "I don't know." Uncertainty is so valued in our society that it doesn't leave room for those types of questions very often.

There's a couple of things here. There's actually just quite a few things here. Let me start by saying this. She said, "I don't know what happens when you die. No one really does." Paul, I know somebody that does.

Really? Who is that?

Jesus knows. There's one guy that I know for sure he does. And this is literally the whole point of Christianity, which is great news. You know why I know he knows? Because Jesus actually died, and he beat death, and he was resurrected, and today he is alive. And because Jesus himself actually says that himself. In Revelation 1:17, he says, "This is great news. Do not be afraid. I am the first and the last. I am the living one. I died, but look, I am alive forever and ever, and I hold the keys of death and the grave."

That's right. That's right. For those who are not watching this via video, you didn't actually see my reaction as she was sharing some of the things. But I got pretty worked up. And honestly, just when I listened to this video, and when I want to say this, this is not, I don't know her personally. It's nothing against her. I don't want to judge her character. But just hearing what she said, internally, I was just thinking, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no." Like, this is pastoral malpractice. Now, I do want to give some grace and give the benefit of the doubt.

Bro, that's really good.

It's just, it's a really important thing to understand. Hey, lead with what the Bible does give clear answers for, because we're going to go here in a bit and we're going to give some answers it does give us. But then by all means, then follow with some nuance and say, "Hey, there are some things that the Bible doesn't give us details about around it, but that shouldn't distract us from what we can know." What we don't know shouldn't distract us from what we can know. Before I, in a second with that in mind, in a minute, I want you to actually, Carlos, like if you were with this guy, because this guy, by the way, this was not a theoretical question.

That's right.

So in a minute, I actually want to model how I think we could answer this, and I'm going to ask you to give us that clarity of what you would say pastorally. But I think there was one other thing that you wanted to touch on before we get there.

Yeah, I just, I want to add to what you're saying here. You know, here's what people need to understand. Like with all due respect to the priest here, anytime somebody claims spiritual authority and then go ahead and they deny or they hide what the Bible clearly and explicitly and completely says on any topic in the Bible, man, that's a major red flag. And so, you know, what you need to understand is there are multiple ways to read the Bible. There is one way to read the Bible and to read it, see what it says, and say, "Man, I will trust it, and I will go under its authority."

Who?

The serpent in Genesis 3 was the first person that said, "Hey, did God really say, is that really the word of God? Did he really mean what you think he meant? Or is that just your interpretation of it?" Man, there's going to be another interpretation of it. Let me share with you what my interpretation is. And honestly, but can we, at the end of the day, can we really have certainty? Can we really know? And that's what's going on here. When somebody says, "Man, we cannot know for certain something that the Bible clearly says," you gotta, that's a major red flag. So this is really important for people to understand.

Yes.

That will determine your theology and what you believe will determine how you behave. And so again, we don't go to scripture because we think this is some sort of speculation from some people that wrote some things back in the day. We go to it because we believe this is revelation from God to us. The reason we believe the word of God is true is because when you open up the book, by the way, when people say, people will ask me, "Carlos, do you believe the word of God is true?" Yes, I do. Here's why. Because when you open the book, the Bible says, "Thus says the Lord," over and over again.

Yes.

Jesus affirms the authority of scripture. For 2,000 years, Christians have believed. Again, this is not human speculation. This is godly revelation. So again, when somebody reads the Bible and they tell you, "Man, I see what it says, but I don't know. I mean, who really knows?" Run. Be careful. That's not it.

And even just to kind of just pause for a second and really just maybe highlight some teachable moments so far. So really what we've been doing so far is just reacting to the video and basically trying to say, "Hey, here are some watchouts, and here are some things that we would do differently." We're going to get back to the question and give people an answer to the question here in just a second. But just to kind of highlight a few things. One thing that you said basically is like, "Hey, actually, the Bible is crystal clear on a lot of things." And watch out for anyone who says, "Well, actually, it's not." Because I get really, I was trying to think as you were talking.

Okay.

And the only thing I can think of is in the Old Testament, there is a place in Deuteronomy that says, "The secret things belong to the Lord, but the revealed things belong to us." Now, and what that's saying is, "Hey, there are some things that we cannot know as human beings that God has not told us." And so even like on this specific topic of what happens when you die, I don't know all the details of what's going to happen in the first 10 minutes after you die. But again, we're going to get back to, "Hey, there are the most important things we do know." But man, like, yeah, so there's some things that we can't know. And we shouldn't, by the way, say clearly what the Bible has not said clearly.

True.

But that being said, what does that verse also say? But the things that are revealed, the things that are written down in scripture belong to us. So there is so much that we can know. So anytime you hear somebody who's saying, "Oh, I don't know," or, "We can't know," when the Bible clearly gives us answers to that topic, or when they focus or they change the interpretation of what is clearly said, it's a watchout.

That's right.

A second thing that we've said so far is basically like, "Hey, when you're ministering to someone, or even just when you're trying to be a good family member or friend and someone asks you a question, where there's a little bit of a mixture of both, where there's some things that we can know and there's some things that we can't know, lead, start with clarity, and then follow with nuance."

That's great.

Follow with nuance. So that being said, I now want to basically get to the question and say, "Okay, if you or I, if we were with this guy and we had a chance to sit with them, what would we say to him?" And I want you to give the kind of the more pastoral answer. And then what I'm going to do then is after you've done that, and maybe I'll make some comments, I then kind of do want to do a little bit of a deep dive with our listeners and watchers and kind of go into some of the theology that is going to underpin, and that does underpin your pastoral response. So what would you say?

Yeah, so let me tell you what I would say. But before I do, I just want to say, man, you mentioned this. Man, this is such a big deal. And I want to make a big deal about it because it is a big deal. She's not dealing with like some abstract theological or philosophical question by herself. This is a real person in her church that's coming to her and asking a real question with real implications in real life. And so let me, super quick, here's why it matters more than people realize. Number one, because the Bible says our hope actually goes beyond this life here on earth.

1 Corinthians says that if it is only for this life.

That's right.

That we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than anyone. So some people will say, "Well, even if it all, even if Christianity had not been true, it's still, I don't have no regrets." Like, what are you talking about? Literally, the Bible says that if there is no hope after this life for us, then we should be pitied above all people. Yeah.

Here's another reason. Number two, when we lose loved ones, we have hope that that's not the end. 1 Thessalonians 4:13 says, "And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know," check that language part. "We want you to know."

Not know, we can't know, but to know.

No, we want you to know what will happen to believers who have died so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died. Listen, if you're a Christian, it's okay to grieve, but it is not okay to grieve without hope. We grieve differently. Jesus is saying, "Listen, you can trust me. I got your loved ones." Those who put their faith in Christ, Jesus says, "I will raise them back to life."

Yes.

The Bible teaches that eternity is a long time, and you will be with Jesus forever and ever, or without Jesus forever and ever. Again, I'm about to explain here. We're going to go deeper here in just a second. Hebrews 9:27 says, "It is appointed unto man once to die, but after this there is judgment." And so either Jesus will pay for your sins or you will, and either Jesus will be your friend or you will stand with him as your foe. That's a big deal. We need to know what happens after you die because I want to know how do you get to the part where you get to be with Jesus forever.

Wow.

And you know, we are praying for healing now, and we have hope that death will not have the last word in her life because she belongs to Jesus.

That's right.

And so you'll say this here in just a second, but if you know Jesus, this is as close as hell as you will get.

Yeah.

And so whatever chronic disease, whatever pain, whatever suffering, whatever tragedy, the Bible calls it a light and momentary affliction compared to the eternal glory that is to come in Christ Jesus. And so it's a big deal. Now, let me just say, okay, so if somebody comes to me, Paul, and says, "Man, what happens after you die?" Here's what I would say. I would say, I would start with what you said. I would probably ask him, if this is like a random conversation, I'd be like, "Hey, tell me why you're asking this. Tell me why you're asking this question."

Yeah.

And so the good news is you don't receive this because you are trying. You receive this because you decide to trust in him. It is a gift of God's grace to be received through faith. So if you trust in Jesus, after you die, you get to be with Jesus. This is why 2 Corinthians 5:8 says, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." And so if I'm talking to this person, this is the great opportunity to say, "Hey, well, have you trusted in Jesus?" If the answer is no, then we can take care of that right now.

Amen. Well, let's put it this way. You can live free of the fear of death.

Amen.

You can live free of the fear of death. I love that. So even just recap on some of what you said is that number one, if you're talking to somebody, you're first going to establish are they a believer in Jesus or not? Because by the way, if they're not a believer in Jesus, they should be afraid. They should be afraid. Because as we said, you said a minute ago that I may say here again in a bit, man, for the believer in Christ, this is as close to hell as we're ever going to get. Because while there is a lot of God's beauty in the world and there's natural grace given to us all and there is some goodness and love here, this is also a broken world that is marred by sin.

Yeah.

Because while this place is filled with some good, it's the last time they'll ever get to experience it forever. So if you're an unbeliever, there is a reason to be afraid. But then, so once you've established that, then if they're a believer, it's like, oh, then there's no fear for you. Because death is an exit door from the closest you ever get to hell. And it's an entry door into heaven. And heaven is where you get to be with Jesus. That's what makes heaven heaven. I love the Apostle Paul, he talks about how in Philippians 1 and later in 2 Corinthians 5 and other places as well, how he longs to depart and to be with Christ.

By the way, if you want ChatGPT to do your wedding, I'm going to get a comment right now.

Oh, don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do that.

He's available. He's got nothing to do.

Oh my goodness, Carlos. Oh, goodness. If you only knew now, all the requests we're going to get.

That'd be kind of cool.

ChatGPT, do a wedding. Well, I wasn't going to say that. I thought you were going somewhere else. Anyways, but man.

That's okay. You can say it's cool that you do your own, that's somebody's wedding.

Back to funerals. I prefer you do a funeral because in my experience, man, people are open to the gospel. Because even if someone's not a believer in Jesus, in that moment, they're faced with death. And they are open in a way to say, hey, this is all like, we are all going to face this. Unless Jesus returns before you die, we are all going to face this. That's a beautiful moment to preach the gospel to those who have a reason to fear, but it's also a great time to give hope to those who don't have a reason to fear. I'll just add this one thing, and then maybe we can kind of do more of a deeper dive of some ways that this question is answered by different kind of systems of theology.

There's going to be a long line too. That's a major fact.

I'm probably not going to tell them that in my detail. But my point is, I'm not leading, yeah, with all the things I don't know. You know what I'm going to say? Oh, dude, it's going to be amazing, man. Once you get to like, whatever, I don't know what it's going to look like, hit your ticket, but hey, you're going to see this and you're going to experience this. So that's how I would often come around with people saying, hey, here's what we do know. And then I say, hey, we don't know some of these things, but you know what? In the same way that if you go to Universal or Disney, those are inconsequential details, it's the same thing. Here's what you do need to know. If you're a believer in Jesus, you're going to get to be with Jesus.

Yeah.

With Jesus. And that's the best thing ever. You want to maybe jump now into maybe some broad views and kind of get some of the theology underpinning this?

So I just gave the normal pastoral response. ChatGPT is going to give you the upgraded theological.

Oh, stop it. That is not what this is about.

Deep dive theological. Paul, you're going to share three different theological views.

Yes.

On what happens when you die. Not all are right.

No.

One is.

Yeah.

Because it's from the Bible.

We've got, if you are, if you're not watching this, we just put a chart up because we love charts and tables here at Live Free.

We do.

We love them. And so we're going to walk through three views. And really, this is the question, hey, what happens when you die? Specifically, I'd say, hey, what happens when a Christian dies? And I want to walk through three potential answers. But again, what we're doing now is we're following with the nuance. You gave us clarity. You gave us the clarity. And so I wanted to highlight that first. Now let's just talk about some of the nuances of how others have answered this. So there's a materialistic way of view, and this is where an atheistic way of, hey, everything is just simply matter. When you die, you return back to matter. We'll address soul sleep here in a bit that some Christians actually believe, but that we believe.

That's the second view.

Yeah, that's the second view. But that we believe is a false view. And then, yeah, we'll kind of basically circle around to what you already said, but kind of give a little bit more detail on what we believe that the Bible simply and clearly teaches. So the first view of if you were to ask a materialist or an atheist, well, hey, what happens when a Christian dies? They would say, you die. You cease to exist. You were matter. You return to matter. But I actually, I could critique this point of view, but I actually think probably the best criticism I've ever heard of this didn't come from a pastor or a theologian. It came from a comedian.

Some people think God created the universe. Some people think nothing created the universe, which is the funniest guess. And the nothing people make fun of the God people. They say God doesn't exist. I'm like, okay, maybe. But you know what definitely doesn't exist? Nothing. That's the defining characteristic of nothing is that it doesn't exist. So what are we talking about? Either you think it's God, something you can't see, touch, taste, photograph, and science can't prove, or you think it's nothing, something you can't see, touch, taste, photograph, and science can't prove.

I love it, man. Again, I think he gave us just some of the most extinct, best critiques of this frame of reference. But I will add this. And he kind of alluded to this. Sometimes if I'm talking with an atheist or I'm coaching people, if they're ever in the conversation with an atheist, you know, they mock our point of view. Like, oh, you really think that someone intelligent created all this? And they make it sound like we're the stupid ones for believing that. And I'm like, okay, let's just imagine this for a second. Let's imagine you and I were walking on the beach and there is, we stumbled upon this really sophisticated, complicated piece of machinery or device or something like that.

That's right.

So I'm not doing this right now to mock atheists. I'm more just doing this to say, like, hey, actually, the simplest explanation is the one that always happens. Atheists would have us believe that everything came from nothing randomly, but that's never happened again. Christians believe.

And by the way, if it did, that was a miracle.

Yeah.

It'd be a miracle.

The biggest miracle of all time.

Pretty big one.

But they would say, hey, but it's never happened again. Happened once, but it never happened again. Christians are people who believe that everything was created from nothing by someone, but that everything was created by someone. And guess what? That's all that's ever happened again. And that's all of our experience. And so for us, we reject obviously the materialistic view because we believe that there is a someone called the Creator God who created everyone and everything. And he created us to live forever somewhere.

That's right.

Which goes back to what you said earlier. That's one point of view. We obviously reject that. And again, the comedian did the best job, I think, ever of basically showing why that's kind of a silly thing to believe.

So not that view.

Not the materialistic view. A second view, and this is actually one that has gained some popularity over the last century or two, but really was very rare throughout Christian history, is the idea called soul sleep. So here the idea is that, hey, in the New Testament, death is often referred to as sleep, that they have fallen asleep or that they are asleep. And so the idea here is that, hey, the body dies. So okay, what happens to a Christian when they die? Someone who believes in soul sleep would say, hey, the body dies and then you are unconscious until the final resurrection.

What are you guys? Six?

Six to seven hours. Six to seven hours is decent. The other day I got eight and I was like, oh my Lord, this is like the greatest thing of all time. Anyways, anyways. So some people say, well, hey, in the same way, when you die, your body dies, but your soul, your spirit, it just becomes unconscious. And then you wake up and Jesus has returned. And then you go into the final full new creation, the new heavens and new earth. Carlos, could you help us explain why this is not the biblical view, not what the Bible clearly teaches?

Yes. So there's actually a decent amount of things we could say about this one. We got some Bible verses. So let me give you some. So number one, Philippians chapter 1, verse 21. Here's what I would say. For me to live as Christ and to die as gain, my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. So Paul is here. He's not saying, hey, I desire to depart and become unconscious until the resurrection. He is saying, I desire to depart and be with Christ. That's number one. Also.

Can I add on to that Philippians 1?

Please do.

He said if in verse 22, he says, if I am to live in the flesh, and just a verse earlier he talked about in the body. So body and flesh here being used interchangeably. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me, yet which I shall not choose, I cannot tell. And basically he's talking about I desire to depart and be with Christ to depart from what? From the body. And then to experience something else. So he doesn't give the choice between, hey, I desire to go to sleep and wake up again. The idea is that, man, if I die, I depart from my body. We'll get to that here in a moment. Momentarily, not forever.

Yeah. And 2 Corinthians 5, verse 6, I believe, says, we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. And so again, to me, that's pretty clear.

That's the crystal clear one.

Let me give you a couple more. So Luke chapter 23, verse 43, Jesus tells the thief on the cross. He says, hey, truly I say to you, today, you will be with me in paradise. He did not say, hey, well, you know, it's early. So in a couple thousand years maybe, perhaps. No, he said today. Number three, in Revelation chapter 6, this is really interesting. Verse 9 through 11, John describes dead believers who are conscious. So John, in this particular section of scripture, he sees souls of martyrs who have died because of their faith.

That's good. I just double click on one thing you said and then even add another text. 2 Corinthians 5 is a huge passage for this because he says, I desire to depart from the body and be with the Lord. The thing you got to realize is we'll get to here in a bit when we're unpacking the biblical view is that the apostle Paul does not view our eternal complete destiny as being apart from a body and being a disembodied spirit. In 1 Corinthians 15, he talks about how there's going to be a future resurrection where our souls/spirits will be reunited with our bodies and we will live forever with glorified physical bodies.

That's right.

And so, but Paul just said, I want to depart from the body and be with the Lord. Well, so the whole idea here is that if he believes that we're going to one day be reunited with our bodies, but he also believes that somehow we can be with the Lord, that must mean there must be an intermediate time. We'll get to this here in a minute. We'll say that it's called the intermediate state where you are with the Lord, but you are apart from your body.

There you go.

And then you are eventually reunited with your body. It's a huge one. It's a huge one. So then people say, well, why does it use the metaphor of sleep? Well, that's the whole idea. We're like, why does it use the word sleep? It's a metaphor. Think about sleep. Like, I go to sleep and then I what? I wake up. It's temporary. What they're trying to say is, hey, the experience of physical death is temporary. It's not going to last forever. Eventually, you will have a physical body again. And also, I think it uses the metaphor of sleep because guess what? Jesus Christ can awake the dead.

Conscious.

Yeah, it's a conscious present state. And it is before the final judgment. Now, some people say, well, hey, well, that was a parable. My response to that is like, yes. And we always do have to be a little careful about stretching parables beyond what they were originally designed to do. But my response is just like, so you're telling me that Jesus would depict something false and get your hopes up about something that's not true about the afterlife to make his point? I just don't think he would do that. So there's just a few more. So we would say, hey, like, soul sleep, it's not the thing.

Chat GPT Plus C version right now. Go ahead.

Yeah, but I'm saying yours was the more pastoral answer that you should give to somebody, by the way. I'm going on the deep dive version. Like, I'm not going to do this if someone asked me this at a funeral. Again, just wanted clarity. Leave with clarity, follow with nuance. We're going with nuance. Hey, the biblical view is that at death, your body dies. And then there is an initial judgment. You said earlier in Hebrews, it says it was appointed once for a person to die and then comes judgment. But here's I just actually want to cut in, even though we're doing more of the theology in the Bible right now, like I want to go back in pastorally and say, if you're a Christian, that is not something you have to fear, that judgment.

No, yeah. And because you are in Christ, God sees Christ's righteousness in you. So now you're justified just as if you've never sinned.

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Okay, so your body dies, but because you've placed your faith in Jesus, your spirit now is with Christ and you're at home with him. That again, death is a place where you are welcomed home. It's something to look forward to. Then, and you kind of hit this when we were kind of, when we were critiquing soul sleep, you are consciously with Christ. Now, we don't have all the details of what that means because people are like, well, wait a second, if you lose your body, does that mean we're just like floating invisible spirits? We don't get a lot of details on this, but here's what I would say is you said in Revelation, you actually get the sense that even though it's their spirits, they're somehow visible.

Yeah, Paul, tell me about this. So people will say, but what about, you know, the transfiguration when Jesus meets Moses and Elijah?

Yeah.

You know, it's like resurrection hasn't happened.

I would say it's an example of where spiritual beings can manifest themselves physically.

There you go.

All throughout the Bible. We see this in the Old Testament, by the way. In the New Testament, it says God is spirit, but in the Old Testament, he could manifest himself through flame and even sometimes by the looking of a person. And so that's even what I would say. So I just don't, I don't want people to think, oh, we're just floating around invisible beings. It's like, no, it's going to be a real experience with Christ in heaven. It's going to be amazing. But hey, that's not where the story ends, actually.

That's right.

Is that in the future, there's going to be a resurrection. I think it was N.T. Wright, I one time heard in an interview. He said, man, you are going to go to heaven after you die. Just don't get too comfortable there.

Yeah.

And what he meant by that is that the biblical picture is that one day when Christ returns, we are going to be raised. 1 Corinthians 15 talks about this moment and also 1 Thessalonians 4. In 1 Corinthians 15, verse 52, it says, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised imperishable and we shall all be changed. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says, for the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of a trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

That's right.

Do you think I've got another picture that gives a more detailed thing? Do you think it's worth it or do you think we've given a pretty good overview?

What's the picture?

Hey, real quick, we can just put this up there in case even like this way, by the way. And I encourage people to do this. I often do this with videos that I watch on YouTube. It's man, if you're watching this on your phone, it might even be helpful. Like just what I do is I'll sometimes take a snapshot of my screen and then there I have it. And so really this just lays out what I just said, kind of in a more detailed timeline is that man, for a Christian, man, we die, we face an initial judgment that we don't have to fear, man. But then we live in what's called the intermediate state where we're with Christ and it's amazing and it's perfect. But we're awaiting the future resurrection where when Jesus returns, our bodies are raised up, number three, and we're united with our spirit.

We don't all get the same thing.

We don't all get the same thing. Now, it's all going to be amazing for everyone. Everyone will have full joy, but there does depend, and we should actually, we should do an episode on this. We should do a Q&A on this and the idea of varying rewards. I think it'd be worth double clicking on. But again, I just for now, I don't want this to be a source of fear. Again, this is a source of hope that one day we are going to receive commendation. And then we have everlasting life with God in the new creation. And it says we're with him forever and ever in a place where there is no sickness, there is no sin, there is no pain, there's only ever increasing joy.

Yeah, bro.

That's what you have to look forward to. So yeah, that's the biblical view.

By the way, that chart is helpful. This is a really good chart, actually. I'm like, you know, oh man.

And by the way, if you're looking on there, we give scripture references for all these. I've referenced some, but there's scripture references for all these. If you want to go look those up.

Once again, man, the word of God is true. Man, we get a lot of responses and a lot of answers. The Bible calls it the bread of life.

Yes.

Man, thank God for his revelation. Let's wrap with some pastoral thoughts, Pastor Paul, here as we land the plane.

Yeah, here's some just final pastoral words I'd have and I'd love to hear what you have to say. Man, one is this, is that, you know, both for the great clarity, by the way, I loved your answer more than mine. Your pastoral answer that you gave earlier and the more nuanced one detailed one I just gave earlier, for Christians, man, this should be a source of comfort.

Yes.

For us, that death is not the final word, that we can have hope for the future, that again, this is the closest to hell that we're ever going to experience. And so for us, death is, by the way, not, it is a natural thing in the sense of it happens to everybody, but death is also in the Bible talked about as an enemy, that one day death will be no more. But I will say, man, for the Christian, death serves from something that we have to dread, but actually it's an exit door from this world and it's an entry door in the world to come and a place that's amazing. So for the Christian, it can be a source of hope, it can also be a source of comfort for those of us who have lost friends or family members who are believers in Jesus.

It's not.

That I'm going to see her again. I will say this. So for believers, it should fill us with hope and comfort. Man, for also for us, when we think of unbelievers, it should fill us with urgency. Because death is coming for us all, including for people who don't know Christ. And again, for them, like this, this just, when I think about this, Carlos, it just overcomes me sometime. You and I, one day our faith is going to be made sight.

Yeah.

But it also needs to be a source of urgency to share the gospel with everyone who is close to us, but far from God. Yeah. What about you? Any pastoral words that you give?

Can I just add a third thing?

Please, please do.

You talked about comfort and urgency.

Comfort and urgency.

Let me give you one more. The third one would be courage.

Yes.

And here's why. Exactly after what you just said, the Bible says you have an enemy and the enemy might not be afraid of you, but he is terrified of your Savior. And if you and I are in Christ, we have received a mission, a commission, an assignment, a calling, a vocation for his glory, for his kingdom. And part of that is to preach the gospel and to tell other people about the good news of hope that we find in Jesus Christ.

That's right.

What was going to happen after he died.

That's right.

He knew exactly what awaited, what awaited for him. And so when you look at the life of the Apostle Paul, again, he carries himself with a fearlessness and a courage because he knows that the enemy might try to send somebody to literally take his life away or make him suffer, but he's like, man, I know what's coming. And so when you look at it, people are like, Paul is like preaching the gospel and then he gets caught and he's like, hey, we're going to torture you. And he's like, Romans 8:18, I consider that our present suffering are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us later.

That's right.

Paul, we're going to kill you. Philippians 1:21, to die is gain. Paul, we're going to let you live. Okay, to live is Christ. Fearless, you cannot touch him because he knows exactly what's coming after. In other words, what Paul is saying, hey, if I live, I live for Jesus. If I die, I get to be with Jesus. Regardless, I win. And that should fill you with courage and hope. Jesus even said, hey, you will face opposition, but hey, do not be afraid of the people that can kill your body. You need to be afraid of the one who can kill your body and send you to hell.

Yeah.

In Christ, we have no condemnation if God is for us, who can be against us. You and I, by the grace of God and empowered by the Holy Spirit, we can live life of courage and boldness as we lovingly proclaim the gospel to the people around us that are going to hell without Christ. And so let me just land this episode with this, Paul. Man, have you heard the story of the two babies in the womb?

I don't believe I have not.

Bro, this is a great story. Okay, this is a story written by this Spanish writer. And I want you to imagine that there's two babies in a womb. And imagine this scenario, two babies are talking to each other inside their mother's womb. And one baby asks the other, he says, hey, do you believe in life after birth? And the other baby's like, you know, of course I do. Man, I believe that there is something beyond this place. Man, there's a whole world awaiting for us. There's a whole world waiting for us.

So good, man.

That's the life of the Christian. That's the hope that we have. Amen. Pastor Paul, would you pray for us?

I would love to. God, again, while even we said at the beginning, there's so much that we can't know in this life and some things that we can't know about the next life, but what we can know is absolutely incredible for us as Christians. And so Lord, even in light of some things that we just said, I pray that you would fill us with hope for the future, that we know that what awaits on us on the other side of death is more amazing than we can possibly imagine. May that fill us with hope here in the present as we wait for that future.

Amen. Amen. Amen.

Live free.

Live free, brother.