Transcript of Episode 577: Jon Gordon: The Psychology of Optimism, Better Habits, and Stronger Leadership

Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it.

Welcome to Habits and Hustle, where I sit down with the world's biggest thinkers, entrepreneurs, athletes, and experts to uncover the habits and strategies that actually move the needle in your health, happiness, and success. And today I'm sitting down with John Gordon, one of the most influential leadership authors and speakers in the world. He has worked with everyone, CEOs, professional athletes, championship teams, and some of the biggest organizations in business and sports. He is the author of 32 books, including The Energy Bus, which was rejected by 30 publishers before selling more than 3 million copies. And his latest book now is called The Power of Positive Habits. In this episode, we get into what positivity actually means, why negative thoughts do not deserve your automatic trust, and how leaders create strong cultures, the habit you need to build before you build any other habit, and why one destructive pattern can cancel out all the good habits you're trying to create. We also talk about why optimism may matter more than discipline and how likability gives you the ability to challenge people without losing them. This conversation will make you rethink positivity, leadership, confidence, discipline, and the way you speak to yourself when things get hard.

What Jon shares in this episode will give you practical tools to stop letting your thoughts run your life, lead people more effectively, and build habits that actually stick. So let's dive in. All right, you guys, welcome to Habits and Hustle. Do we have a treat for you? We have John Gordon on the podcast. Let me just quickly read his bio here. Okay. John Gordon is one of the most influential and sought-after leadership authors and speakers today. He's a consultant to numerous leaders, CEOs, NFL, NBA, and MLB coaches, championship teams, and high performers, and an inspirational teacher who has helped millions of people have a more positive mindset. He's the author of 32 books, including 19 bestsellers and 5 children's books. His books include the timeless classic The Energy Bus, which has sold over 3 million copies, The Carpenter, which was a top 5 business book of the year, Training Camp: The Power of Positive Leadership, The Power of a Positive Team, The One Truth, and his latest release, The Power of Positive Habits. This is going to be a podcast you definitely want to listen to if you want to basically uptick your life in any way possible., and these are proven strategies that will help you grow exponentially.

So stay tuned for this one. And thank you, John.

Thank you.

Because I'm telling you, I've never seen anyone write this many books and be that busy. I, I don't know how you do it. Like, I, I, is, is ChatGPT like writing your books at this point?

No, no. I was writing before ChatGPT was even around. My wife will often ask me advice for her post and she calls me John GPT.

Really?

Yeah. So I've been writing for a long time. When I started writing in 2006, this book, The Energy Bus, came to me on a walk and I didn't even know I could write a story, but I got a vision for this story and I sat down and I just started writing this book. And in 3.5 weeks I was done. And again, I didn't know I could write a story, but I did. It was rejected by 30 publishers.

Yeah, I saw that.

But eventually a publisher took it on, John Wiley and Sons. It came out and after 5 years it became a bestseller. And after 5 years, took 5 years to become a bestseller. A lot of habits and hustle.

I love that. Okay, wait, Before we even go into the— because I want to talk about the energy bus because that's like a massive hit. We got to do these shots for Magic Mind. Okay. This will keep you, Jon, super focused and very alert. Okay. These are very—

it says Magic Mind. Is this something I should be concerned about?

No, no, no.

Like magic mushrooms?

No, it's not magic. It's basically ashwagandha, lion's mane. It's just going to be keeping you— it basically helps people stay focused and it's basically performance-based. And this is why I want to do it with you, because you are like the, the king of all high performance. So how do I not do this shot with you?

All right, let's do it.

Okay, let's do it. Ready? Cheers. Mm. This one's also caffeine free. It's good, right?

It's very good.

Mm. Okay.

Love it.

That's good, right? So now you're gonna be super locked in and I wanna hear all about this energy bust because that was your, is that kind of what put you on the map?

It did.

Okay.

When that book came out, people started reading it and not a lot initially.

Right.

But those that did started to bring me in to speak. And then after that, I got more and more speaking engagements from that sports teams, corporations.

All from that one book.

That one book.

What were you doing before that? Like, let's go back to the beginning. 'Cause, because to become now, like, you are like a very, you're like the one of the OGs in speaking, like I think in leadership. In leadership.

Yeah.

Like I, you know, people know Tony Robbins obviously.

Right.

And you have other ones that kind of, kind of sprout up here and there. But I'd like to know, out how your, like, what your background is to even become, to get to that place. Yeah.

I only think one guy, probably John Maxwell, has worked with more organizations, more teams.

That was the guy I was thinking of.

More companies.

Yeah.

More school districts. But I don't even think John has worked with as many school districts and sports teams as I have. So really I've reached a lot of leaders over the years in terms of just going to work with their leaders, their organizations, their teams. And so It started with, with me actually struggling and figuring out what, what I need to do with my life. 'Cause I lost my job during the dot-com crash. In my twenties, I was an entrepreneur.

Mm-hmm.

And I opened up a, a Moe's Southwest Grill franchise in my early thirties. 'Cause I literally lost my job during the dot-com crash. I put these investors together.

Right.

Had 100,000 shares, thought I was gonna make my fortune. And the company went south, went bankrupt.

So then you just thought, so one day you're like, I'm just gonna write this book. Energy bus.

Well, what happened was I lost, lost a job and I'm like, what am I gonna do with my life? How am I gonna support my family?

Right. Okay.

And I was, I was really struggling and I was being really negative to my wife and she had enough of my negativity. She said, if you don't change, we're over. 'Cause she was gonna leave. I had to change. I wanted to stay married. And so I began researching ways I could be more positive during that time. 'Cause I was naturally negative, miserable, negative, mad, sad. I'm 100% Ashkenazi Jew. So I was born with anxiety.

Yeah. You said that earlier. Yeah. That's true. Exactly. And like, basically you're probably like nervous a lot. Yeah. And like uncomfortable, anxious.

Anxious. Yeah. And so I lose my job.

Pessimistic.

Yeah. Oh, oh, now I'm, I call myself a pessimistic optimist.

That's right. Right. Okay.

So I don't know how I'm gonna pay the bills and I don't know what I'm gonna do next, but I know I wanna be more positive. So I began researching ways I could be more positive. I began writing about what I was doing. I began a weekly positive tip. And I had 5 subscribers at the time, my mother, my brother, and this was before there was social media.

Right.

I had one of the first e-newsletters out there using Constant Contact. Oh, to send my newsletter out. And again, people were reading it and then started to share it. And that's what got me doing this work. Next thing you know, I started writing books and I wrote The Energy Bus in 2006. But I gotta say, you know, in my twenties, I was a mover and shaker. I opened up a bar at 24 in Buckhead, Atlanta. When I was, when I was young, 24, I was very involved in the community, a nonprofit organization I started called the Phoenix Organization. We raised money for youth-focused charities. So I always had the mind of an entrepreneur. So when I became a writer and speaker, for me it was like, okay, I have this mind of an entrepreneur, a former athlete. So I naturally fit in terms of speaking and writing to business people.

But how do you become a speaker like that? Because again, like if you haven't done it before, You write a book. Okay. A lot of people can write a, like, a lot of people write books. Does it make them a naturally gifted speaker?

Right.

Did you practice it? Like, 'cause, right. Your big thing, like I, when I was doing a lot of research on you is like, they're actually comparing you with me a little bit in terms of like, are, well, be, yeah. Because, well, not, not to the, not because I'm like you, but what I, it was more about messaging. Like I talk a lot about action and grit. Right. And they're like, they're like, you talk. And then they're like, Jon talks a lot about the power of positivity, positive positivity and like what it takes in a, in a, in a, you know, how culture is so important. It, it trumps talent. It trump— so like, you know how that happens when you start like going down the AI tracks. And I always found, I found it interesting and I wanted to ask you because where did this mess— is it because you were a naturally more negative or pessimistic person that you kind of, you know, kind of really kind of doubled down on the positivity train in a way, you know? Not, you know, kind of to, to be one of the success skills that made you who you are?

Like, how did you kind of go from—

I think it's so ironic that this is my life's work, right? Because I am naturally negative. Right. So I had to work at being positive. And as I began doing it myself, that quest to get better myself led to a mission to help others get better.

Mm-hmm.

And as I began writing about it and then speaking on it, I began seeing the impact it was having. Like, I was born to share this message on positivity, but not Pollyanna positive.

Wait, tell Tell me what your message is.

It's not Pollyanna positive.

Okay.

It's not about seeing the world through rose-colored glasses.

Okay.

It's knowing that you have the power to overcome the thorns, and it's not about ignoring reality. It's about maintaining optimism, belief, and faith in order to create a better reality. It's knowing that there's gonna be a lot of adversity. There'll be challenges, there'll be obstacles, but you have the resilience, the belief, the mindset to overcome. So for me, when I talk about positivity, it's a positive mindset that we have to have. And then that positive mindset helps you become a more positive leader. A more positive leader is better able to lead their team. And what happened was I initially was speaking a lot on positivity initially, and as I began working with all these different companies and organizations, I began to see leadership needed this more than anyone. And a leader needed to be able to transfer their belief, their optimism. A leader needed to develop the relationships of their, of their team to be able to be strong and united and connected. They needed to commit more to their team. So I began to see how these leaders needed to become a positive leader to make a greater impact. And I often say positive leadership is the competitive advantage.

Like Alan Mulally, when he, when he turned around Ford, they were losing $13, $14 billion. He defined his leadership style as positive leadership. He was able to turn around the company because of his optimism, his resilience, his mindset, but also the way he led his team and built a great team. A negative leader will not build a great team.

Right.

And a pessimist will not change the world. It's the optimists that change the world. When you're investing in companies and leaders, you want someone who believes they can actually change the world, but also will take the action in order to do it.

Right.

So, so for me out there, it's this positivity mindset, leadership, then teamwork, a positive team, a positive culture. And of course, positive habits and action. It, it all goes hand in hand. And I become an expert in culture working with so many organizations and teams. I actually have a whole culture building process. I sit down with a leader and I help them create their culture literally from scratch. If they don't have a culture, I'll help them create it from scratch. If they have one, I'll help them make sure that it's actually strong and the core values are what they really should be. 'Cause a lot of times they have these core values that are buzzwords.

Yeah.

And a bunch of jargon, but they don't mean anything to anyone. So I can literally help someone create their core values, their culture from scratch. I'll do that on the mindset side. I can help every leader, every team, every athlete perform at a higher level because I've been a— become an expert in, in the mindset. 'Cause it— there's a lot of books on mindset, but a lot of people don't understand how thoughts really work. So I also go into that from a mindset perspective.

So how do, how do you know? So this is what I wanted to know. So like, how do I know these things? How do you know these things? You're not a psychologist.

I don't know.

I just know. Right? You're not, right? What's your degree in?

My degree is in government and economics and human ecology, and I have a master's in teaching. And the funny thing is, you know, it's so funny.

You do have a master's in teaching? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. From Cornell?

No, I have a degree from Cornell and then a master's from Emory.

Oh.

In teaching.

So you do. Okay.

Yeah. I taught school for a year. I often joke when I speak to educators.

Really?

And then I opened up a bar after that. Yeah. So teaching drove me to open up a bar. Exactly. But I could still, I still consider myself a teacher. 'Cause at heart, that's who I am. People say that I take complex subjects and topics and then make them simple and practical. Yeah. They can act on. And that's what I, what I love to do. But no, I'm not a psychologist. And people say to me all the time, are you a psychologist? No. But it's amazing how many psychologists actually read my books.

Well, well, right.

'Cause I think so many do and use them in their practice.

I was gonna say, you know, like sometimes it's also people just have a knack, a talent, and then you've honed it and craft, you've obviously honed it over all these years. When you first started doing this 30 years ago, yeah. What, and what were you speaking about different things than you're speaking about now? How has it evolved over the last—

Yeah, that's such a great question. Well, talk about NAC. My biological father is a psychotherapist and social worker, and he didn't raise me, but he's my biological father. And I coach and help a lot of people.

Right.

And it's not therapy, but I take them from wound to healing. I really helped them move from wound to healing. My brother is a chief marketing officer of a company and he also—

Which one? Do I know the company?

Gallagher Bassett.

I don't know what that is.

It's a subsidiary of Gallagher, the very large insurance company.

Okay.

You would know Gallagher, massive company. But he's a chief marketing officer for Gallagher Bassett and they do a lot of great work. But he also is a coach. Like he coaches leaders all the time in his work that he does. So it's funny, we both have that knack. To, to do that. And so in many ways, um, I think life prepares you for the work that you're meant to do, but also spending time with leaders. Also, I have done a lot of research, and as I'm working and writing books, I'll get new ideas and I'll get new thoughts. And then sometimes I'll be walking and an idea will come to me. I was walking in Santa Monica a few years ago when the idea for The One Truth came to me. And that book is revolutionary in terms of mindset. It, it teaches that everything comes down to connection and disconnection, connection and disconnection. And when you're connected, you'll be in a high state of mind. When you're disconnected, you're gonna be in a lower state of mind. The root for the Greek word of anxious means to separate and divide. So when you're anxious, you actually feel separate and divided.

All mental health disorders report feelings of isolation, disconnection, and separation. When someone has trauma in their life, a neurological separation happens. In their brain. There's a disconnection. Schizophrenia means split mind. Bipolar, two poles. Everything comes down to disconnection. Now, connection, there's a, a feeling of oneness, of, of wholeness. And when you're connected, joy and peace and love. And what we saw during the pandemic, we saw people feeling very disconnected and isolated, and it's why they struggle with their mental health. Those who are able to feel connected spiritually, what, whatever your faith tradition is, but when you feel connected to the creator, spiritually connected to other people, connected to yourself. That's when you feel more whole. That's when you're happier. That's when you feel more joy and more powerful. So everything comes down to connection and disconnection. So it's a framework, and I've had people to try to refute it. You can't. It came to me on a walk. I had the ideas. I was getting literally downloads. Two circles. One circle has 1,000 dots. The other circle has 3 dots. Which mind will perform at a higher level? The 3 dots. We know this, right?

Not the 1,000. 1,000 is a cluttered mind. Well, when you're disconnected, anxiety, it's a lot of clutter in your mind. When you have the three dots, that's a lot of clarity, a lot of focus, a lot of positivity. So anyway, that's, that's how it comes about. Like, I'll get ideas, I'll get thoughts, I start to write 'em down, I start to test them. I get on a call talking to Sean McVay, the coach of the Rams. Sean, I got this idea that just came to me. I wanna talk to you about it. And I share it with him. He's like, oh, I love that. Met with Doc Rivers, the former coach of the Clippers. Sat down with Doc over there at Shutters. We're sitting there, told him about the whole one truth and explained it to him. He goes, I see it in my players as you're talking about, I literally can see who has a high state of mind, who has a low state of mind. Yep. Shared it with him. So I'll start sharing it with the different coaches and leaders I know. And that's how things evolve. And again, I, I'll write a leadership book.

It's based on my work over the years with all these leaders. And I see a pattern of how great leaders lead.

Mm-hmm.

And that becomes the book.

That becomes the book. Yeah. So basically, how did you get into all the sports? Not just teams, but like organizations. You do multiple teams with the NFL, multiple teams with the MLB, multiple teams. Like, so like, what was your first, like, and like, and I wanna know what you talked about then and what your big thing, when people call you now to talk versus what they call you then about to talk.

Oh, you asked me earlier how things evolved for me.

Yeah. And you kind of like, and you didn't answer the question.

Yeah, I'm gonna answer it right now.

I'm, I'm going back to that.

And I'm gonna, okay, I'm gonna answer it right now. How did things evolve? Well, when I first started, you would love this. I started speaking about health and wellness and energy, mental energy, physical energy, emotional energy, and spiritual energy.

Okay. I like it so far.

So I was, I was beginning on that. And every time I talked about like health tips, I felt like I was someone's mother telling them what to do.

Yes.

And I felt drained when I did it. But every time I talked about positivity, and positive energy. I felt alive when I talked about a positive mindset. Like it just lit me up.

Okay.

And that's when I knew I'm gonna spend more time on the mental side of positivity and less time on physical tips, health and wellness. Even in the new book, The Power of Positive Habits, many of the tips and most of the tips are actual mental habits because thinking is a habit.

But yeah. And by the way, I will say this, that The physical is just like, kind of like the byproduct. It's all mental.

Yeah.

Like I just did a, a TED Talk. It's not even out yet, but it will be about how I learned more in the gym than I did in my, in my, in my MBA program.

Love that.

Because it teaches you like fundamentals about mental strength and discipline and patience and all these things. So to me, the physical is just a manifestation of what's going on in the mental.

Love that.

You, and you have to do the mental first before it kind of You know, until it trickles down physically or vi— by, they both interplay. Yeah. The reason why people do physical is to get to the mental strength and the mental strength feeds into the ability to believe in yourself to do the physical.

Like if you walk every day and you exercise, that exercise is gonna make you feel so much better mentally.

100%. It helps you not only with focus cognitively, but it also, like you said, it just, it makes you feel your mood enhancement. It's funny because in your new book, I'm reading through it and it's all these mental habits and then it's like lift weights. And I'm like, huh? I'm like, whose book is this anyway? Because you see it makes a, that is a habit.

Yes.

That is a, it helps in all these other areas.

Well, in writing this book, it was great cuz I, I did a lot of research on physical habits.

Yeah.

That we should be doing that we're not doing, like squatting like a child.

Mm-hmm.

When I first started this, after writing the book, it's coming out, I'm like, oh, I better do some of these habits. I start squatting. And I couldn't get past the chair, right? Like I couldn't go lower than the chair. Now I can go almost all the way to the ground. It's an amazing habit doing that every day, right? Everything you do, or the, or the dead hang. The dead hang is unbelievable for, for your back, for decompression, for your health. What a great habit. So a lot of the physical habits I put in there, I had to research, but I've been doing those habits now. Game changer in your life and they make you feel better. I feel younger now. At 55 than when I was at, in my 40s.

Right. Because you take your, now you're like taking care of yourself.

Physical. Yeah.

So strong.

And it goes hand in hand. Lifting weights. I started lifting weights during the pandemic again, 'cause I used to lift weights and I stopped for a while. I'm at a party, Ed Mylett's there.

Yeah. I used, I heard, I saw this in the book. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, I read, I wrote about in the book. Yeah. That's right. And, and I saw Ed and he was jacked and I'm like, I'm not jacked. I used to look like that. I'm like, I gotta get back to that.

So he's probably on something.

I, I'm not gonna say one way or the other if, 'cause I really don't know, but I don't know. Ed, Ed works out a lot, so he, he really does take care of his body. But just seeing him jacked, I'm like, you know what? I need to get back to that. And I started lifting and I've been lifting ever since. And I feel ever since, yeah. I feel so much better. Yeah. So much stronger. Yeah.

100%.

So my initial start in this world was on physical health, wellness, mental health and wellness, emotional energy, spiritual energy.. So this is almost like full circle, writing The Power of Positive Habits. It brought me back to my beginning and what I've been doing over the last 25, 30 years, and then putting them in one book that people could then use. So that's how I started and that's where I am now. Right now I'm gonna do other books going back towards, I can't even imagine business. I have fables I wanna write, but, but I knew I needed to write this book to share the collection of those habits. But that's how I got started. And then when I was working with all these different companies going there to speak on positivity, positive energy initially, I'm looking around and I'm like, wow, they're all jacked and excited. Like they're cheer— they're fired up. But leadership is not, leadership is not looking very positive at all. They look lame. And one of the employees at one of the companies, I'm not gonna say who, came up to me and said, you know what, John, this is great, but our leaders are not here and they're not doing this and they need to.

And right then and there I made a decision. I'm gonna impact the leaders. 'cause leaders impact people, companies, organizations, families, communities, countries. I'm gonna impact leaders. And that was a decision I made intentionally. I said, I'm gonna start writing about that. And that's what led me to write The Power of Positive Leadership.

I like that book.

The Carpenter. Carpenter's a great leadership book. And all these different books on leadership, The Carpenter, you gotta read that. You'll love The Carpenter.

Tell me the main theme of that one.

It's the greatest success principles of all. And the greatest success strategies of all. There's 3.

Okay, tell me.

Love, serve, and care. You love people. You love what you do. You serve to make a difference. You serve others. It's not about you. It's about serving to make an impact. And it's about caring more. And I always tell people, don't focus on building your business. Focus on loving, serving, and caring. And if you do that, your business will exponentially grow. And that's how I've grown my business. I love my clients. I love people. I go and serve them. It's not about me, it's about them. And it's about caring more. When you care more, you stand out in a world that doesn't seem to care. But when you care, that is a success strategy.

That's true. Caring is, I mean, you know, a lot of this is so, it resonates so much because especially in the world we live in now when everything is based on, you know, we, AI can write an email. Yeah. A, a PowerPoint, it can do a marketing plan, but there's zero connectivity and connection, right? AI's not gonna make you laugh until you, until you cry, right? Like AI's not gonna make you feel something. And I think now more than ever, it's more about connection and connectivity than ever before. And so when you talk so much and like your message is similar about, about, about that, right? Like people are craving connection versus disconnection. The, you know, you were saying, which you said something a couple times about words and serving and all these things. And you gave a really good in like way to kind of do it. And I think it's, I think it's one of your, uh, habits actually is that pick a word. Yes. Right. And focus on that word for the year. Can you talk a little bit about that?

This is one of the best exercises that, that we teach and share. Okay. You pick a word for the year, one word that gives you meaning and mission.

Yeah.

Passion and purpose. One word that will drive you to be your best. And everyone usually has a different word. And I tell people, just ask for your word. Word is be open to it. Your word will come to you. There's a word that is meant for you. And when you find that word or it finds you, you then decide to live that word for the year. Like my word is build. This year we're building a house, we're building our business, building this whole focus on leadership development that we're doing. So it's build. And every day I wake up, okay, we gotta build this. In years past, it's been purpose. Another year it was whole. I want to become more whole. Another year was still, just to spend more time in, in stillness and be still. Each year it's been a different word. But you do this with your team, you do this with your family, where each person picks a word and then they share it with each other. And why they chose the word. Here's the power.

Why?

Because the why behind it is what gives it meaning and power. So what is your word for the year? And tell us why. And now we know you better. We know what's driving you. We know what your word is. And now we can help you live your word for the year. There's a company I work with, Hendrick Auto, and their headquarters, they had a one-word car with all of the words of all the employees on the car as a reminder. Every day they're walking into work. To live their word for that day.

And so, like you said, you said that when you pick your word, you should just look up and it will come to you. Yeah. What if it doesn't?

It does.

Yesterday I was trying to figure out my word and I—

You need a couple more days.

Having more— how, like, how long should it take? I want to know how long it takes to get the word. Because I mean, my— there were a few different words that came to mind and then I kind of was like, I don't know about that word. Maybe that word. I don't know.

So as a word comes to you, write it down. And then another word comes to you.

Okay.

Maybe it's this word. Write it down.

Okay.

Another word. Okay, I'll write this down. And then you go, okay, what word is more important than the other words?

Mm-hmm.

Which word trumps the other word?

And like your message is that by picking a word, not a fill in the blank, it does what? Like if you have just one word, not a—

Yeah. Well, the one word is sticky. The one word allows you to focus. Every New Year's people pick resolutions. But resolutions do not last.

No.

9 outta 10 people fail with their resolutions and most people fail by the end of the first month.

Mm-hmm.

They don't even make it to February.

Right.

But one word sticks and you'll live your word. You'll focus on your word. You can do your word. And it's like a word that is something that, I don't know, it comes to life as you live it. Like the year I picked serve, I had serve as my word. I said, okay, how can I put this into practice? And this is good for people listening. You pick your word, then decide how you're actually gonna put it into practice in your life.

Right.

For me, serve more at home. So I began doing laundry at home.

Mm-hmm.

That was one way I knew I could serve.

Right.

Did that. And then on planes when I was traveling, I would help people with their luggage. And so I would take their carry-on and put it up in the overhead bin for them. I did that all the time. I still do it to this day when I'm, when I'm flying commercial, I will help people with their luggage.

Commercial.

Yes.

How often do you fly private versus commercial?

Mixture, mixture of both. Depends on the client.

Okay.

Depends on the client. So my, you know, if I'm doing a school district, You can't expect the school district to pay for, for private travel, nor would you want them to. But if it's a big old company, yeah, they'll, they'll fly your private. So it just depends.

So, okay, so what do you, when, when you get hired by a sports team, what's typically the topic that they're hiring you for versus a corporation? Yeah. Like what are the top 3 things that people hire you to talk about?

It's either Power Positive Leadership. Mm-hmm. Talking about leadership to be a better leader. Lately it's been The 7 Commitments of a Great Team, which is one of my more recent books. I love that book, The 7 Commitments of a great team, 'cause every team must make these commitments if they wanna be great. So everyone on the team makes the commitment. And when they make the commitment to the vision and mission, the commitment to giving their best, the commitment to getting better, the commitment to each other, the commitment to connecting. When they, when they really live those commitments, man, you see this team come alive. We did it with UCLA women's basketball and Corey Close. I, I did the 7 commitments. With them before the season, and it was so cool to watch them and win a national championship. And Corey said, our team decided what our vision and mission was, and we committed to it as a team. So I love commitments 'cause they're so tangible. So a lot of times I've been speaking on that more recently in the last couple years. Before that, it was the power of positive team. What are the principles and practices that makes a great team great?

So I'll talk about that. I'll talk about a culture of greatness, how to build a culture of greatness. I'll talk about the one truth, how to play with a high state of mind instead of a low state of mind. As I go to speak to more teams for this training camp coming up, I'm gonna talk on the power of positive habits. I'm gonna talk about habits that will elevate you, your career, and your performance. So I'll talk about that. So over the years it's been different topics, but I love doing it and I, I love speaking to sports teams cuz when you go in there, you're talking to the best of the best and they still want to get better. And if you can say one thing that will help you help them get better, they're gonna listen, they're gonna follow. If you can't help them get better, you're wasting their time. So you gotta go in there knowing, okay, I'm here to help them get better and I'm gonna say something that's gonna help them get better. It's not about you, it's about making them better. And when you do that and you watch them like tune in and listen and you know you made a difference, you said something that truly is gonna impact them, no better feeling.

And then you see it on the field and you see that team rise to a higher level. I worked with the Jaguars last year to watch that team come alive to, to, to make it to the playoffs, to transform the city. They were like a different team, a different organization, a different culture. That coach William Cohen did such an amazing job. That organization did an incredible job. So working with them and then seeing the fruit of that is an incredible feeling.

Do you do one-offs or are you kind of like a huge, like, are you like a high performance coach?

Yeah. No, it's, It's more, it's more coaching.

And what else? Do you go in multiple times? Like, do they hire you?

Yeah, it all depends. So sometimes it's, it's one talk to a team during training camp, right? Other times it's a series of talks and coming back and working with the team. Other times it's I'm coaching the actual coach and I'm working with the coach. And I can't say who I've coached, but I've coached a number of of championship-winning coaches, which has been, which has been awesome. When Dave Roberts got the job with the Dodgers, mm-hmm, I met with Dave and worked with Dave to help him build his culture and his leadership. Again, I'm not working with him now, but early on, those first 3, 4 years, we worked a lot. And to watch him do what he's done has been incredible. I love Dave Roberts. So that was multiple visits.

Mm-hmm.

Other times it's a speaking engagement, other times it's coming, working with the team, working with the coaching staff, working with the leaders of the organization. I can have the greatest impact when I work with everyone in the organization from the top down.

Right.

And sometimes I'll work with a president, a GM, and the coach to make sure they're aligned.

So just the 3 people?

Yeah.

So then it's not really, so it's not really a speaking gig.

It's more— No, that's more consulting, coaching, one-on-one, and helping them become more united. Again, what happened was I started out as a speaker. I really started out just speaking. Then you're in, you're seeing what the issues are. And I have a consultant mind, right? I'm here to solve problems. So then I start to see what the challenges are. I start to come up with solutions. I wrote the No Complaining Rule. I wrote Difficult Conversations Don't Have to Be Difficult. How do we deal with negativity on our teams and our organizations? How do we build a great culture?

Right.

How do we deal with a toxic employee? How do, how do we deal with people who are focused on their own agendas instead of the agenda of the team? So you start to see all the issues. Those are all questions I have for you today. Okay.

Okay. And like you just get basically just like did the podcast. I wanna know all of those 'cause I think it's very important in terms of people who are, how does a leader become a better leader? What is the number one skillset that they need to improve?

Such a great question. The number one skillset on how to be a better leader. I believe it starts with, with you becoming more whole for yourself and within yourself because when you're more whole, when you've dealt with your issues, when you've healed your wound, you become a leader who can heal others and help others. And you have greater moral authority when you are someone who's actually dealt with your issues and your challenges and your past, and you've healed your past. That's why forgive fast.

Yeah.

Is one of my favorite habits. 'Cause you can't lead someone if you haven't forgiven them.

Right. But if someone could, I, I agree with you. But let me say this, so like if I'm a leader and I need a lot of help, cuz I'm just not connecting to my, you know, I, I, in my, in my opinion, everything comes from the bo— from the top down, right? Yeah. So if you have a shitty leader, you're gonna have a shitty culture and all the things, right?

It all starts, it all starts with your leadership, with your leadership, right?

Yep. So if someone is having that, like what if they just don't have, uh, if they're not good at connecting, what's the first thing that you do when you go in? Like what do you try to get that leader to be better at?

Okay. So. The Power of Positive Leadership really explains what you're asking in terms of how do you become a better leader?

Mm-hmm.

First and foremost, you focus on your own positive mindset. Oh, yep. So are you negative or positive? And how can you start feeding yourself every day?

Yeah.

In order to feed others.

Yeah.

So you're doing that, you're working on your positive mindset and we have practical strategies for that. One of the habits in the book is become your own greatest encourager.

Mm-hmm.

Encourage yourself through the challenges. Don't beat yourself up. Don't get down, don't get negative. You stay positive. It sounds, it sounds cliché and Pollyanna. No, you stay positive, you stay resilient. So that's one thing you need to do as a leader. Then you have to have a vision and mission. Where are you going and why are you going there? And you really have to be walking, right? And living that vision and mission.

Mm-hmm.

Then you can rally your team towards it. But if you don't have one, they will not follow you. And if you're not someone they want to follow, they won't follow you. So that goes to being a person of integrity as well. You have to make sure you are living with integrity and being a person of integrity, which means what, what you say and what you do are in alignment. There's no gap in your character and there's no gap between what you say and then what you do. Okay. The next step in this leadership framework is I gotta build great relationships, which you just asked, how do you build great relationships? How do you get your team to wanna follow you? 4 C's. 4 C's: communication, connection, commitment, and caring. So first it starts with great communication. Are you communicating with your team? And this is where a lot of leaders struggle.

Mm-hmm.

'Cause they don't, and sometimes I don't, I gotta take the blame here as well. We don't communicate well.

Why?

We're so busy.

Right.

And we're so stressed. We're so focused on just trying to get through the day. That we don't take the time to communicate the things that matter most with the people that matter most. Where there's a void in communication, negativity will fill it. So we have to make sure we are filling the void with great and clear communication, with clarity. Clarity leads to focused action. So are you providing clarity? Are you communicating? And by the way, communication, the word shares the same etymology as commune, community.

Mm-hmm.

Or communion, which means to join with. So leadership is about joining with, becoming one. So we should communicate to connect.

You know, I keep on going back to this whole culture beats strategy.

Love it.

Idea, because it's such an important thing. And if you look at companies that are really thriving, they all have a very specific corporate culture, right? And so if you have someone who joins the company and they don't fit that culture, Yeah, chances are they're not gonna stay very long.

Yep.

Right. Is there a strategy to build culture?

Yes. Yes, there is. And that's what I've been doing actually, and create a culture building process.

That's hard. How do you build culture?

You have to first identify what your core values are.

Yeah. So you first develop what the core values are.

And your vision and mission. So where are we going? Why are we going there? And what are our core values? What do we stand for? Now, here's a really cool culture hack that I haven't shared with a lot of people. I'm gonna share with you, and this would be great for your listeners to hear. This is how you actually create a great culture with great core values. You ask yourself, what are the characteristics that we're looking for in the people that we wanna hire to bring onto and into our company and our organization? What are their characteristics? As you think about those characteristics, those are actually your core values.

Mm-hmm.

Because you want people who represent your core values, right? And live and believe and breathe your core values. Well, when you bring on people who have those core values, that's your core value. So you might as well create those as your core values. So I'll ask a leader, tell me what your core values are. And they'll tell me them. And then I ask 'em the question, tell me about the characteristics you want and the people you're bringing into your organization. Right. And I'll see if they're aligned. If they're not aligned, I'll show them and explain this to 'em. And then they go, ah, I got it. And then they realize, okay, I gotta, I gotta actually probably recreate and relook at my core values. And then also, this is the big one. What's your core values? What's the essence of you? When I work with a leader, it's like, what's the essence of you? What do you stand for? What matters most to you? Because when you can live your authentic self and your core values every day, that culture's gonna come alive.

Yeah.

If you're picking words that actually have nothing to do with you, that you don't care about, that you're not gonna live as the leader, that culture will not be created well cuz it's actually not authentic and it's not a part of you. It doesn't represent your essence. Culture's the living, breathing essence of what an organization values, believes, thinks, says, and does. So it starts with what you value, what you believe, what you think, what you say, what you do. You're the leader, then leadership team, Do we value this? Do we believe this? Do we think this? Do we say this? Do we do this? And then your organization, you bring people on who value that, believe that, think that, say that, and do that. That's how you create a culture. You want diversity of people, but you don't want diversity of values. Remember that.

Mm. That's a really good point. I like that. Also, you said that leaders need a microscope and a telescope.

Yes. That goes to the vision and mission. So once you create your vision and mission, Pull your telescope. What's the big picture vision and mission of where we're going? And then zoom focus. What do we need to do each day to bring that vision and mission to life? 'Cause a lot of times we have the big picture vision and mission, but we're not executing on a daily basis. And there's a lot of leaders with great visions and great missions, but they're not great in operations.

Right.

And they don't have a team to actually execute in the zoom focus way. You gotta do both. I gotta tell you, be honest, that's my biggest struggle. I'm a visionary. I got a big vision. I have a team and I find myself going, okay guys, we gotta make sure we're Zoom focusing. And what I realize is I need people around me who are great on the Zoom focus side, cuz that's not my greatest strength.

Yeah.

It is for myself.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But you know, we're visionaries and then we're moving on. So we need strong operation teams to do great work.

That's 100% true. So that's hard, right? Because a CEO, like if you're a founder of a company, typically they are visionaries and they're not necessarily operators. So what is someone supposed to do? They're supposed to hire an operator?

Yes. Yeah. The visionary must hire an integrator who is going to be able to run and operate the company. You need a second in command that can run things for you.

Is there a difference in the talk you would give to a sports team versus a leadership team?

Oh yeah.

A C-level team at a business?

They might include some of the same principles.

Okay.

They might include the same commitments. Like I've done 7 commitments for corporate, very successful companies, and I've done 7 commitments to a professional football team. Same 7 commitments talk, right? But principle, story, application. This is how people should give talks, by the way. This is a great way to give a talk. Principle, story, application. You share the principle, then you tell a story that brings the principle to life and makes them feel. So my sports story is gonna be different than my business story.

Right. And then that's the hardest part.

And then how does it apply to you and how do you apply it? PSA, I call it, by the way, PSA, principle, story, application. I have a framework. We actually give this framework away to people who want it.

I love that. 'Cause that's like, it's hard. Like I always find it difficult, the story part, right? 'Cause are you pulling stories from yourself or are you pulling stories from something else?

Like it's a, it's a mixture. And, and I, you know, you're a great speaker. And by the way, yeah, when I, when my name comes up, your name comes up a lot as well. Isn't that cool? When, when you really, yeah, you, yeah, it, it, it comes up. You collect stories. I think it's one of the most important things you can do as a speaker and as a leader is to collect stories and have different stories that bring different principles to life. And I'm always looking for different stories. And a lot of times life will give you new stories to tell. Yeah. Like a lot of those are in this book. Like as I wrote this book, I was thinking of the habits and I'm like, all right, what story is gonna make this habit compelling? And bring it to life. And people have told me like, this book is really engaging and very compelling and it's a quick read.

It's, can it's easily, could exac— for that reason it's easy cuz you, it's that you can follow it fast, like squat like a child.

Yes. Or it's a quick habit, but it's also a quick story that like tells you why this is important and also makes you wanna read more of it.

The one, okay. There's a, cuz there's a bunch of habits in it that I was like, I, I talk about this all the time. Like have a hab— like you talk about this about having a habit before the habit. Yes. Right? Because this is where people get so stuck. Like, and you, and I love, of course, I resonated with me because you're talking about a fitness kind of situation story, right? Like if you wanna work out, you gotta have your clothes out the night before and all these things, you know?

Right. So you, so you would, if you were teaching this habit, yes. To go back to what we were talking about.

Yeah.

You were teaching this habit, you would then tell the habit and then you'd say, oh, there was one time where I didn't put my stuff out and here's what happened.

Right.

And it's a funny story about searching for the thing and it's dark and you hit your head on the counter or whatever. Right. That would be a funny story at that event to tell about that habit and then to apply to them if I'm talking to a football team. So make sure when you're in your locker, you put your stuff out ready before you go out to the game and you have all your stuff aligned, or you put your cleats on and make sure they're tied well. Just like John Wooden say to make sure that you're tying your shoes cuz you don't wanna get blisters.

And then did you ever talk, did you ever speak with him?

Never got chance to talk to, to John Wooden, but, uh, But Corey Close was very close with him. I know people that were, heard amazing stories. But yeah, I've learned a lot from John Wooden. But I would tell that story, or you would tell the story to a, a business audience. You would say, hey, the habit before the habit. If you wanna send a video to your clients, like 3 clients a day, just to encourage them, to say hello to them, to connect to them, write down the name of the 3 people that you're gonna do the next day. And when you wake up, you already have the list of the 3. It's gonna be easier to do those videos.

Right.

So I just shared an application. For that audience.

Right, exactly. But I, I think, well, I, I think it's a very important thing because otherwise people get very— that's when people fail, right? The start is always in, like, the failing is always before the, the actual thing, right? Because you, things will happen, you'll get like sidetracked. Like I always say, like, I don't, I'm, I would do not allow myself to do anything before I do this particular thing. Like before I do anything, I have to drink my water with lemon before I do anything else. Like my everything has to have like a non-negotiable.

Yeah.

Before to get the other thing done.

It removes friction.

It removes friction.

Remove the friction and you're more likely to do that.

Yes.

That's why it's actually, is it the first habit in the book? Yes. The first habit in the book is to the habit before the habit.

That's why I liked it.

Yeah. Cause it's like, I love it.

It's a great way to start. What habit did you forget or you wish you would've put in the book that you didn't?

You know, I've been thinking about this a lot lately cuz there's a habit I I keep kicking myself like, why did you not put this in the book? And it's the habit to actually get rid of your worst habit. 'Cause that worst habit is what will ruin your life. These are habits that will elevate your life, but that worst habit will ruin your life. And if you have this worst habit and you're still doing it, it's really hard to replace it with positive habits if you still have the worst habit. So I should have said, get rid of your worst habit, whatever it is. We all have one. Do you have yours?

Yes, we all have it. I have one.

We gotta get rid of our worst habit. What's your worst habit? I knew you were going to ask me that. I've been trying to think of what my worst habit is because I don't—

And don't lie. Don't give me your, like, you know, you know, the kind of like PC one. Oh, you know, I work too hard. Baloney. I want to know your worst habit.

I just— I've just— my worst habit is I care about people too much.

Oh, don't—

I'm kidding.

I'm totally kidding. Okay, good.

I'm totally kidding.

What's your worst habit?

You know, I was thinking about it because I don't gamble. I'm not a big drinker at all.

Okay.

I don't eat like poorly. I don't watch porn. I'm not a porn guy. I don't watch TV a lot.

Okay.

I mean, I would say one of my worst habits is I probably watch too much sports and—

Oh, because it's fast nonsense.

No, no, no, no, no. Because no, if you watch too much sports, it can keep you from being your best.

Okay.

And I probably, probably eat too much, too many potato chips because I love potato chips.

But I haven't—

Those are your words, I don't believe you.

I don't believe you. Those are your worst habits. You eat too many potato chips.

My daughter, my daughter gives me a hard time. My daughter says like, my dad is so disciplined. Greek yogurt is his dessert right now.

Oh really?

Yeah.

Like, okay.

So I'm thinking about my worst, like if I had to pick a worst habit, it would be more on the spiritual side. Like my worst habit, I think at times, you know, there's too much pride. If I have a worst habit, I, you know, will focus sometimes more on,, you know, numbers than, than impact. You know, even though I'm really big on impact, I'll sometimes let the numbers get the best of me. Like my worst habit is probably scrolling on social media and looking at social media and going, you know, like, you know, like, like, like, oh, I need to be doing this. I should be doing this. I should be doing that. I was gonna ask you that. Like that, that, that might be like one of my worst habits. And, and, and lately what I've been saying with that though is, you know, I know it's a bad habit 'cause I'm scrolling and getting frustrated 'cause the algorithm, like trying to figure out the algorithm is just driving me nuts.

What's on your algorithm?

Like, no, like the algorithm in terms of like—

And what's on it though? Like when you're, when you're on your social—

What keeps on showing up for me?

Yeah.

A lot of pizza. Pizza.

Really?

Yeah. Pizza and chocolate chip cookies. 'Cause I do love chocolate chip. Although I can't eat 'em.

Okay.

'Cause I'm allergic, I'm allergic to eggs, so I can't eat chocolate chip cookies.

Chocolate chip cookies. Okay.

So, so, but I've been seeing a lot of, and a lot, a lot of leadership stuff will, I guess, will come up. A lot of spiritual stuff will come up for me. I'm a faith-driven guy, so a lot of sermons will come up. So I'll see a lot of those.

Who are the other people in your field that you look up to or think that do a really good job?

Yeah, there's, um, you know, I, I have, I have colleagues that I really, really have befriended in this space and there's others that, you know, I, I'm not a fan of and there's others that I think are doing a great job. Like Ed Mylett is a good friend of mine and I think Ed is, is really a powerful speaker and Ed just, just shares his heart. I've been with him and just watching, he's a good speaker. Watching him move the audience, you know, really inspires me. I think Dan Martell is doing a great job on social media, especially just sharing the concepts he's sharing and teaching what he's teaching. I said I'm a person of faith. Josh Howerton is doing a great job on social media. Mm-hmm. Sharing a lot of faith messages, watching him do that and sharing that. One of my mentors was Ken Blanchard, and that's not a social media guy, but he, he wrote The One Minute Manager. And he made me wanna do this work. So he's, he's definitely one of my heroes.

What's his main, main thesis?

The One Minute Manager was to catch people doing things right. It's one of the habits in the book. If you catch people doing things right, they will do more things right. So the One Minute Manager is to recognize and praise someone in that minute. And it sold like 20 million copies.

Wow.

Yeah. It's, it was written in the '70s and He's now 87, right?

So instead of catching someone do something poorly and, and be like, aha, catch someone doing right. Because they— there is like a lot of research backing that, right? If you, if you, if you praise people there and validate them, they'll do more.

Yes.

More good work versus the opposite. It's the carrot stick analogy, right?

You know, the whole idea is if you want people to do more things right, then praise them for what they're doing right. And the more you praise them, they'll actually do it more and more. We think we have to correct, but actually the praise and the recognition causes them to do it more and more. And I gotta say, like, as a, as a parent of two kids, when my kids were younger, I did not do that early on. And I, I really almost messed my daughter up in terms of her athletic career. I had to step back and then come back to be an encourager and a recognizer and appraiser.

Mm-hmm.

Made all the difference in our relationship. And she's speaking now. She's now 28 years old and she speaks all over. There's no way she would've wanted to do this work if I had stayed that way.

So what would be your advice if someone is not doing a good job and they are like, you can't praise somebody if they're lazy, right? Or like, quite honestly, like bad at their job.

Yep.

Right? Like, who, like there's, there's a whole, like, let's be honest, like this generation is, lazier. They're coddled more. They don't want to work. I can go on and on. Like, do you know how many people I know, how many friends I have? We— it's like, it's so hard to find somebody who's really, really hardworking these days.

Okay, so there's 3 reasons why they're not doing a good job. One, leadership is not training and developing them.

Okay.

Two, they don't have the capacity. They don't have the skill. And they need it. And 3, they just don't want to. And if they don't want to, you gotta let that person go. You gotta let them off the bus. You give them a chance to get on, but if they don't get on, you have to let them off. I want people who are committed. I got 5 C's that people should use when hiring people. And you said it earlier, culture fit is one of them. They have to have culture fit. They have to have the right character. Do they have character? Are they gonna be honest? Do they have integrity? Do they have competence? Do they have the skill? Are they committed? We talked about this earlier. You gotta be committed. And I want people who are committed and willing to do the work, and they gotta be a coffee bean. And if you're a coffee bean, guess what? You're gonna be a great employee. You're gonna be someone who's gonna make a difference.

What do you mean coffee bean?

I knew you could ask that. What is a coffee bean? Take a carrot and you put that carrot into boiling hot water. What happens to the carrot? It gets softened. It gets weakened in the environment. You take an egg and you put that into boiling hot water. What happens to the egg?

Softened.

Softened. No, actually gets hardened. Hard-boiled eggs.

Oh, I guess. Well, I think if it— Yeah. Okay. Yeah, you're right. Yes. Yes. Okay. Okay. Fine.

It gets hardened.

I'll give that to you. All right.

All right. All right.

Yeah.

So you have, you have hard-boiled eggs and you have the carrot getting weakened and mushy, both being affected by the environment. Life is like a big pot of boiling hot water. We don't wanna be the egg. We don't wanna be the carrot. We wanna be the coffee bean. You take that coffee bean and you put that into boiling hot water, even if it's not ground up, within an hour it'll actually make coffee. It will transform the water. So you want people who will transform their environment but not be impacted by their environment. They'll be people who transform environment. They transform companies and organizations. You're a coffee bean. Wherever you go, you make a difference. You impact that organization, you impact those people. So you wanna hire coffee beans, people who believe that they can actually impact the people around them and transform them. This is a transformative concept. I just shared it the other day with a bunch of educators, school leaders.

Mm-hmm.

In Florida. And I shared this one concept at the end with them and they were like, their eyes open. You have the power to transform your school district, to transform your school, your community every day. Go out and do it. You want people then who believe they can and who will go and do it.

Did you think of this whole coffee bean analogy?

So what happened with this is really cool. I wrote a book called The Coffee Bean with Damon West. Damon West was in prison and he learned the lesson from another prisoner who said, Wes, be a coffee bean. After teaching him how this all works, transform the prison. Don't let it transform you. Don't get all those tattoos. Don't get into any hate groups. Don't become a person that your mother doesn't recognize. Damon West was sentenced to 65 years in prison for getting addicted to meth and then burglarizing homes and created a whole crime ring in Dallas, Texas.

Wow.

So Damon West gets out after 7 years and then is on parole for life, but gets out in 7 years.

Why?

Because he transformed the prison he was in. He became a coffee bean. So what does Damon do? He's a former college football player. He starts speaking to college teams. Dabo Swinney at Clemson football had Damon come and speak, and Damon did a Coffee Bean talk. I'm there speaking at Clemson. And Dabo says to me, we just had this guy, Damon West, talk about the Coffee Bean. He's like, man, incredible story, incredible message. And the minute he said that to me, I had a visual of a cover of a book called The Coffee Bean. And as he is telling me about it, I'm like, this is what I teach. We create from the inside out. 'Cause for years I was teaching the powers within you to create the world outside of you. And the coffee bean was the perfect analogy for that. So I reached out to Daymond. I said, Daymond, hey, we should do this book called The Coffee Bean. And he goes, you're Jon Gordon. You didn't do the book with me. You can do it on your own. I'm a nobody. I said, Daymond, we're supposed to do this book together. I see your name on it and we should do this book together.

And I'm gonna give you half. Of my royalties and half of my advance. I don't know why, but I was just led to do it. No way.

That's so great.

I did it. I did it. And Damon tells the story all the time now. Damon has spoken to millions of people now. He does this every day. Like, he speaks almost every day to a different group. He goes into prisons, he goes into companies, he goes into sports teams, goes into organizations. So now both of us are out there speaking all over, sharing that coffee bean message. And he's had such a transformative impact. On so many groups. One group which is really cool is a school district in Brevard County. They gave The Coffee Bean to 5,000 6th graders. 5,000 6th graders. They gave the book to read cuz it's a very short read.

Yeah.

It has illustrations, it's pictures in the book. It's a short book. You can read it in 20 minutes. So they gave it to all their kids. Suicidal ideation went down, visits to counselors went down. Problems at the school went down. They actually got funding and they actually presented to the governor of Florida what they did at their school district with this foundation. And they had an incredible transformation and impact with that. So if Damon and I don't get together, this doesn't happen. And it was a meant to be situation when you really think about how cool that is. So Coffee Bean, Damon West, big shout out to him. But again, I gave him, I gave him half my advance. And the cool part of that, I know it was a God thing.

Why?

Because when Damon got that money and gave it to his parents, he owed his parents $50,000 for their legal fees. That's what I had given him actually as my, the other half of the advance. The advance was $100,000 and I gave him $50,000 and he went and did that. And now the book has sold hundreds of thousands of copies. Yeah. Oh yeah. Hundreds of thousands.

How many did, how many books do you typically sell per book? Like, I know that NRG Best was 3 million, but like what was the other one?

Total For all the books, it's been about 6.5 million right now and growing. You know, for me it's not about selling books as an author. You know, you don't make a lot of money on books.

No, you don't make money.

It's about impact. It's about people reading those books and making a difference. But each book depends. I mean, Power of Positive Leadership is several hundred thousand. The Carpenter is several hundred thousand. The No Complaining Rule is 700,000. But The One Truth might be at 70,000 right now. And I'm hoping that reaches more people 'cause it's such an impactful book. So, So, you know, each book I would say definitely gets over 100,000.

Okay. So could you say something about like your, your writing? You have another 5 books in you to write, or how do you spend the majority of your time? Is it speaking?

It's mostly speaking. And now it's been running our company, our leadership development company. We have a Certified Positive Leader program where we're actually developing leaders. So we've been doing that a lot now.

Wow.

How do we do that through our, through our program? So we have masterclasses, we have coaching, we have our portal where they come in, they have all these tools and resources. To be a better leader. And every month there's a masterclass on different topics. I do a quarterly mentorship with the group. It's almost like a university in a sense. I've created actually John Gordon's Positive Leadership Institute, and our whole goal is to develop positive leaders who make a positive impact in every business, school, team, organization, and community to create a more positive world.

I love that.

And that's what we're focused on now. So, so I have this team, I have this group of trainers, I have a group of certified trainers, we have our marketing team, we have our operations team. So I find myself a lot now running, running the company, but I really have to do find a second in command. I really do. I have a great marketing guy now. He's, he's awesome. I love him. But I need to find probably someone who's gonna be a second in command for our future to really take this to the next level.

Next level. How much more levels could you have?

I mean, this level, well, you know, for the past 20 years it's been me. Writing and speaking.

Yeah.

Doing what I do. So that level's at the highest it could be. But I always believe I can grow. I always believe I can get better. So I, I say highest it can be. I mean, I'm at that level, but I want to go even higher to get, you know, get even better, grow even more. But for this, this is a new venture. So this has a lot of room to grow because it's something I'm growing with my daughter. My son's involved.

Oh.

My wife's involved. Like we're all involved.

It's a family affair basically.

It's really a family. Thing that we're focused on. My daughter runs a Certified Positive Leader program now. My son is in sales on the sales side. And together, like, it's about living this mission every day. 'Cause the idea is that, you know, there are a lot of leaders out there who don't know how to lead and they don't have the tools and they don't have the training. And they're put into these positions by companies and yet they don't know how to lead. And a lot of companies will not spend money on training programs. So we made ours very affordable for these people to actually come through our program. To develop. Harvard is like $40,000 to $50,000 to go through our program. Ours ranges from $997, $5,000 to our highest is $10,000.

Wait, Harvard, what did you say?

$40,000 to $50,000 for a leadership program to join Harvard to learn how to be a leader, like an executive leadership program.

Oh, executive leadership program.

Yeah. Program.

Yeah.

I was gonna say, I was gonna say no, just the university is, is like $70,000 to $100,000. $75,000 a year. Yeah.

Yeah. But you're right. That executive program is about $40,000, $50,000, $50,000, $60,000.

Yeah. $40,000, $50,000, $60,000. Ours, Maximum 10,000. And I know our program literally, it will be more effective and has been more effective in terms of developing leaders to give them practical tools to go lead their teams. Cuz we're all about principles which inform and practices that transform.

I love that. Okay. Ready? I'm gonna give you some rapid-fire questions. Okay. You ready? Okay. Rapid-fire, meaning like 1 or 2 sentences. You ready?

Are you saying I'm long-winded?

Maybe. No, I'm just joking. I'm just joking. Um, we met and she, we just met and she said, I'm so—

we, we, we, we've known each other. Yeah.

I feel like I've known you for 100 years already. Okay. Okay. First question. If you could put one sentence on a billboard, what would it say?

Stay positive.

Stay positive. Okay. What's one conversation that changed your life?

Wow. The conversation I had with my wife when she threatened to leave, and if I did not change, I would not be who I am today. You know you're with the right person when they give you strength.

Who believed in you before you believed in yourself?

Tony Chiazza in 9th grade. He encouraged me to go out for the lacrosse team. I tried to quit. I couldn't catch and throw. He said, you're not quitting. One day you're gonna play in college. One day you're gonna play in the Ivy League. I would go on to play lacrosse at Cornell University. Neither of my parents actually graduated from college. And so I never knew even what Cornell was or what the Ivy League was. But he believed in me and he changed my life.

Because he believed in you?

Yeah. 'Cause he, he, He said, I'm in 9th grade. One day you're gonna play in college. One day you're gonna play in the Ivy League. And I go to play at Cornell University and that experience truly changed my life going there, man. Tony Chiazza.

Can positivity be learned?

Yes, I believe it can be learned and it can be developed. We could all become a better version of ourselves, a more positive version of ourselves. And I'm living proof, proof, cuz I'm naturally negative. So you can actually rewire your brain from negative to positive and you can develop it. It's like a, a muscle that you can develop and you can learn it by doing strategies and techniques to help you with more resilience and optimism and belief.

So, cuz in my, it's in, in, in my brain, I think everything could be a skill. Like ability could be a skill. Boldness is a skill. This is what I talk about.

I agree with you.

I think positivity could be a skill too.

It is a skill.

You practice like anything else. You wanna be better at lacrosse, you practice lacrosse. If you wanna be better at being bold, you practice being bold. If you wanna be a better karate, you know, you get the gist. Yeah. You can also practice being more positive.

Our leadership training, we have people write down their negative thoughts.

Yeah.

And then we have them write down their positive thoughts. And we say, when the negative thought comes in, you replace it with that positive thought. Talk to yourself, don't listen to yourself. That is a habit and a skill you can do on a daily basis. And the more you do that, you'll actually develop a stronger mindset, more mental toughness, and more resilience. Talk to yourself, don't listen. It's a skill.

First of all, you put that in the book, right? That's a habit. That's a positive habit.

One of my favorite habits. It changed my life through that habit.

I have that highlighted. Don't, like, basically it says you can talk to yourself, but don't listen to yourself.

Right. Don't listen to all those negative thoughts coming in. Yeah.

But talk to yourself. Yeah. 'Cause negative, 100%. I love that.

Negative thoughts are gonna, well, here's the deal, Jen. Negative, negative thoughts are gonna come in.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

But when they come in, do you agree with them or do you discount them? Negative thoughts are lies that will tell you things about yourself and your future that just aren't true. And I ask people all the time this question, do your negative thoughts come from you? And people say, yeah, they're in my head. But here's the next question. If you believe that, who would ever choose to have a negative thought? Would you ever choose a negative thought if it's coming from you? Why would you choose that negative thought? You wouldn't. It comes in, it comes in so fast, we believe it. You're not the thoughts you think. You're the thoughts you believe.

Mm-hmm.

So only believe the positive thoughts. And if the negative thought comes in, talk to yourself with a word that you do believe, an encouragement that you believe, and then move forward. And if you don't believe it, keep encouraging yourself until you do.

What's more important, optimism or discipline?

I'm gonna say, of course, optimism. Of course, I'm gonna say that because you have to believe that tomorrow will be better than today. You have to believe in the future to have the discipline in order to create it.

Ooh, I like that. Yeah, that's a good one. I like that. Okay. I like that a lot actually.

Uh, I was almost stumped there for a second, but I know you were.

I've got a lot here to stump you, but okay. I just can't see without my glasses. Um, that's like really unbelievable. What's one question every leader should ask their team?

What's it like to be led by me? What's it like to be led by me? So they can give you feedback. And then what can I do better would be the next question, right? I have one where I have to ask it on a scale of 1 to 10, how connected are we on a scale of 1 to 10? They're gonna tell you, and then you ask what would make it a 10? 'Cause you're gonna get great ideas how on how to become a more connected team.

That's a really good question. Yeah.

Great question. This is my, this is what I do with leaders. I, I will sit down and help them create their plan to lead their team.

I ask this to everybody. How important is being likable?

Very important. So if you're likable, you can actually be more tough with your team. I call it love and accountability. You gotta love your team, and when you love them, you earn the right to challenge them. But when you challenge them, you have to be someone that they like and someone that they know loves them. And so the more likable you are, you can then challenge them, but they're still gonna be okay with that. But if you're a jerk and you're not likable and you're tough with your team, they will tune you out and you will burn them out. So you gotta be likable 'cause they have to want to play for you. They have to want to work for you. Likable helps you go a long way in terms of how you can lead your team.

I think it's the most underrated, undervalued skill there is in business.

I agree.

Okay. Really good. So you and I are in sync.

Yeah.

Okay.

Totally agree. I, I, I've been thinking a lot about this 'cause let me give you an example. Bill O'Brien. I was just with Bill O'Brien, coach of the Boston College Eagles football team. He was the coach of the Houston Texans. He coached Tom Brady for the New England Patriots.

Okay.

And there's a scene where he is just going off on Tom Brady on the sidelines, and it's still iconic to this day. Well, Bill is a tough guy. Bill will drive you, but Bill's very likable. And I knew it. I'm like, I bet that guy's really likable. I just spent time with him. Loved him. He's so likable. Just such a great dude. But he's a hardass.

Yeah.

He's a hardass, but he's so likable. And so we're walking by his—

What's his name?

Bill O'Brien.

Okay.

Bill O'Brien. We're walking, we're walking, we're walking by his players as we're walking by in, in the lounge.

We're hanging out.

They're like watching the game. He goes, can I get you a drink or something? Can I get you some water? As he's walking by to mess with them, like, can I get you some water? Would you like a— would you like some food? Can I get you a sandwich? Like, just as he's walking by.

That's a great point.

To mess with them. But, but funny. And I just thought, this guy is hilarious. So he'll drive them, but he's likable and they know he loves them, so they play harder for him.

I totally agree with that. I do. I do a whole thing on this whole— that likability is kind of one of my pillars. That's why I'm asking you. So I'm gonna keep on going. What do you think makes somebody likable? What's the number one, I mean, quality that you think makes someone likable?

Wow. Such a great question. Never been asked that before. What makes someone likable?

You should come to my speaking engagement.

Yeah. I would love to see that. Do you, do you give a whole talk on what makes someone likable?

Yeah. I did a whole viral talk on this.

You guys, this is key.

So don't steal it from me cuz I'm gonna come, I'm gonna come after you.

Trust me. No, I'm not going to. I'm a positive guy.

You know, you can be positive and also be a thief.

I'm not a thief.

Yeah.

Uh, but I love that actually. I love that you do that. I would say what makes someone likable is one, their personality. Like you have to have a personal personality that is likable. You also are likable when you smile. I think that makes you likable. I think you're likable when you have a great sense of humor and you're likable when you actually care about people and they know you care about them and they can feel your genuine authenticity. And when you are, you're more likable. Tell me what I'm missing.

Okay. So I'll, I'll tell you.

I always wanna learn.

I've deep dived on all of this.

Okay.

And there's a lot of things that go into the soup of likability, right? But you've touched on a lot of them. The 3 top are 3 top skills for be— for people to be likable is authenticity.

Okay. Nailed it.

Empathy. Empathy.

You care about others.

And, and enthusiasm.

Okay.

So they're all variations of what you said. Yeah. Enthusiasm is kind of like a positive.

You gotta be careful on that because enthusiasm could be too much enthusiasm. 100%.

Yeah.

And people get turned off if it's too much.

100%. But enthusiasm, when I, when the way I talk about it is more about being kind of like, kind of being like a positive person.

Right.

And being, don't be, being a, a positive force, not a negative force.

Right.

Because that negative Nelly that comes in will, will ruin everything. Right. You know, it's like when you have a, when you get a batch of blueberries and you have one bad blueberry in there, everything else will become rotten because of that one bad blueberry. Yeah. Right.

I love that.

So, So it's that. And then authenticity. I think that you can get away with murder if people think that you are a real person that's genuine and that you care about them. So the empathetic piece, and you can get away with anything.

So like, you can't fake it though.

But you can't fake, but this is, this is, it has to be real. This is the whole thing. When you're authentic, you can't be, that's why like your friend, when you said that, it kind of reminded me of me a little bit. 'Cause like I'm a hard ass. Yeah. You don't know me very well.

I can see that though.

I can see that. I am. But I'm like kind. Yes. You know what I mean?

Right.

So I can get away with it because I'm actually a nice— I'm a good person and I care. Right. So I can— but my, my people's threshold is much better.

Right.

Versus me just being a total bitch. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

I'm just being honest.

Yeah.

That's true.

That makes a lot of sense. I've seen that play out a lot.

Right.

A lot of businesses, a lot of scenarios like that.

And people could say, oh, women are always considered bitchy and men are considered this. No, you could be a bitch and you can be like an asshole. You know that those are things that are real, right? But I think that if you have like those three type, those things, right, there's like, obviously there's like, people love people who are funny and self-deprecating and all these things.

I was gonna say, self-deprecation I think is important.

Very important.

I share a lot of self-deprecation on stage when I speak.

Me too.

And people really do connect to that when, when I'm on, right?

Because I think a turn-off— so that is, to me, just how there's all these things that make someone likable. Yeah, there's a lot of things that make people unlikable, right? And one of them is when people take themselves way too seriously. I hate those people, you know what I mean? Like, if you came in here and thought that you were like all that—

yeah, are you doing—

yeah, or, or like, just like couldn't— you couldn't laugh at yourself. Like, oh yeah, you, you know, like, you, you became very endearing when you thought that you're like, sure, you don't look good in your shirt, right? But like, it's, it's human. Yeah, people like to connect to human people, right?

Oh yeah.

You're gonna be mad at me.

In all truth, I came in and my wife flew and I flew here from Florida last night and I'm all bloated from the flight. I always get bloated. So it's like lately I've been like, I'm like, I'm working out, I'm walking, and yet I'll travel and I'll get inflamed. So I was feeling very inflamed today.

No, but I think it's very cute and endearing, right? Because it's like, it's, it's like, of course we all can relate. Yeah. So when someone takes themselves too seriously and shows up too polished, right? Like it's a turnoff.

Yeah.

Right. Insufferable people. Yes. Oh God.

So let me ask you, have you written about this? Are you gonna write a book on this?

Yes. Well, I, I, I talk about it. I, I, I've been talking about it a lot.

So we need to do a book on it. There's, there's a book called The Likability Factor.

Yeah.

An older one.

But you need to do a book about, you think I should do a book about this?

I think you should do a book about likability and unlikability. And I think the two together, and I see something with the COVID with both somehow.

Maybe I should.

But it's the, it's the idea of that because I think that's so important. Again, positivity and likability go hand in hand. I'll never talk about likability. It's just not my thing. But when you talked about it, you lit up.

You steal that from me.

Never. You lit up. The one thing I can honestly say, 33 books, I've never stole anything. I don't steal. I'm teasing. No, no, but I just know, I know what I'm meant to write, but I always see when someone else is meant to write something. My wife has Gordon Publishing now. We're helping people publish their books, and we can always tell when someone's meant to tell that story. It just oozes out of them. You lit up the minute you started talking about likability.

You know why?

You love it. You're passionate.

I am super passionate about it. You should write about it. You know why I'm passionate about it? Because I wrote a book called Bigger, Better, Bolder.

Okay. Yeah, I know that book.

Okay. But I did a TED Talk on the idea of being bold before I did the book. And it went, it went viral, like really crazy viral. So I wrote the book.

Okay.

And I would get questions all the time, like about being bold, like how to be bold, how to be bold. And my whole thing is being boldness is a skill, blah, blah, blah.

Right.

And then when I started to really think about it, I realized that it's really You can't be bold. There's a precursor, right? Right. The habit before the habit.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

The precursor to being bold is you have to be likable first because it's much easier to get away with being bold if you are likable.

Yes.

So that's when this whole likability thing ticked in my head. And then I, I got asked to do a different TED Talk. And long story short, it didn't come out as a TED Talk. I think it might come out as a TED Talk still. So I don't know if it's gonna happen. Right. But I did it as a TED Talk.

Okay.

But then it never, there was like a tech, techno, like a technical issue.

Yep.

And so then I started doing it as clips and it, it kept one after another became like a viral clip, a viral clip, a viral clip. But I do believe that like I am passionate about it because I think the reason why I've had any success in my life isn't because of my college or this or that is because of the fact that like I was, I was likable to somebody.

Yeah.

And I connected with somebody and that led me to the one thing and then that led me to another. 'Cause I believe everything is about the relationship. It doesn't matter how much schooling you have, how much talent you have, how much anything you have. If you don't have that, you're never gonna get as far in life. There's a ceiling to, to everything.

I love it. A title just came to me, but I'm gonna share it after we're, we're off camera. Really?

Don't forget it.

I don't wanna, I don't wanna say it now, but I'm gonna say it to you. I think it could be pretty cool. You may not like it, but I'm gonna share it with you.

Okay, good. Tell me. I would like wanna know.

Yeah, I think it's cool, but I think you should definitely do a book on it. I always see when someone should do a book on, on something.

Really? But yeah, the process is so hard. Like it's a long process. I mean, with the publishers, like, oh my God, two, it's gonna be out in 3 years.

No, we, we do it. You could do it with Gordon Publishing and you could do it in 6 months and have it out.

Is it the kind of publishing company that like you charge me for like to, to do the book?

We would charge you, but here's the deal. You own 100% of the rights and the royalties when it's done. Yes. And, and it, but it's a real book. It comes out as a real book.

So why didn't you do your book with them?

It looks like a real, I am going forward.

What do you mean? Why didn't you do this book?

Because I had a 3-book contract with Wiley.

With who?

Riley?

Wiley.

Wiley. Okay. Yeah. And I was, I signed a 3-book contract during the pandemic. So now that I'm done with my 3-book contract, I'm gonna be doing books with Gordon Publishing. 'Cause that's a model that I should've been doing all along because you make so much more of your books when you own the rights as an author of a publisher.

Well, you'd ever make money off of it.

You make about, yeah, $2 a book or something like that. But when you own the rights to your book, you make $10 to $12, $15 a book.

Most people don't make money off of the, even those books. The only person I know who's ever made money money off of a book that was self-published, honestly, is Dave Goggins. David Goggins, he did a self-publishing book, Can't Hurt Me, that was self-published.

Yep.

He sold 5, 10, 20 million books.

Yeah.

I mean, he's, he made a fortune off of it. Yep. Most people don't make money off of that though. Mm-hmm. And I've seen that.

And I'm not, and I know, yeah. And I'm not a, like you said, are you one of those publishers? Yeah, we charge, but we're doing Michael Chandler's book, the UFC fighter.

Mm-hmm.

We're doing his book. We do a lot of CEO leader books. Because they want control of their book. They want it out sooner. And our books look like a real book, not a published book. That's our advantage. And Gordon Publishing, since I've written so many books, I'm known in the publishing world. Oh yeah.

You've written hundreds and hundreds of books.

And I, and I love that our model is helping people. Like, we help you, we, we help you write your book, create your book, put it out in the world. Great title, great everything. And then when it's out there, you now have a book that represents you and you're making all the money off of it. We're not getting a dime. So it's like you're paying us to just help you create a product for yourself. And we love doing that.

I love that. You just pitched your new company. So my next, one of my next rapid-fire questions.

And we want, and we want your book.

Yeah.

I, I, I would love to, I, I would love to do that book because that book is, is like, everyone needs to read that book, especially the title I have.

Yeah. Really?

Yeah.

Okay. Maybe we could do it together. Okay. Okay. Because that was my next question to you. What's your challenge you're taking on now? Is it the publishing company?

No, cuz my wife's, that's her passion. Okay. And I need to tell you, I didn't want to do it. I was not interested at all because I have so much going on. She would come with me to events and every time she was with me at an event, someone would ask her about writing a book, working on a book and asking help with it. And she goes, I think I'm gonna start a publishing company. I'm like, honey, I have no interest in that. I don't want to do it. It's not for me.

Yeah.

And she said, well, I want to do it. And so she's been doing it all herself. Gotta give her all the credit. I talk about it 'cause I've seen the impact of all the authors and how it's worked.

Who have you done so far? I mean, how many people?

About 20 books and we've got another 20 in the queue.

Get out.

Yeah.

Really?

Kathy Rogers' book is, uh, Doug Dentler, like all these, yeah, really cool, cool people who are building their, some are building their brands with their book and, and coming out doing it. Some already have established brands. One book is Chris Maleo's book, The Chair Leader. Chris hired a, a guy as a coach, as a high school coach. He hired a, a young man who had cerebral palsy, nonverbal, couldn't speak, and became a coach. During that season and transform the team. It's gonna be a movie.

That's beautiful.

It's gonna be a movie. It's a beautiful story. He actually just got contacted by Hollywood, someone who just read the book and said, this needs to be a movie. And we've talked about it being a movie. We did his book.

I love that.

So, so yeah, we, we're only doing books that make impact. So we will, we will not do, and just anyone's book, they have to have a book that we believe will make an impact to do it. Mm-hmm. So, but my biggest challenge, you asked, my biggest challenge right now is no doubt develop, building this training company. Where we help people learn positive leadership, lead with positive leadership, and then teach positive leadership. So we have a certified trainer program, we have the certified positive leader program, and we have the learn— we have how to learn to be a positive leader. Now that we have this institute, that's the biggest challenge cuz it's building something for the future from scratch. You know, from scratch. I had, I had my life of writing and speaking and that was wonderful. Now I'm dealing with this every single day. And as you know, when you're building a company, So many challenges. Yeah. But you know what's been cool? I wrote The Power of Positive Leadership. When I wrote that, I didn't have a team. I was working with all the great leaders teaching them.

Mm-hmm.

But I didn't have a team. And now I have a, you know, 15 people on my team.

Isn't that interesting?

So I'm reading my own book now going, oh, what did I say on page 95? That's right. I have to stay positive right now.

Oh my God. Like, so hard.

I'm literally, you know what, I'm reminding myself of the principles going, John, you wrote this, you gotta live it. Cause it is hard. So I have so much more respect and admiration for leaders even more now than ever. And I'm able to relate to them on a level that's just different now because I'm leading my team and dealing with all the challenges. I know their problems so much better. It's easy when you're a consultant and you're like, well, do this, do this, and do this.

Totally agree. Yeah.

When you're living it, it's so much harder, but you learn more and I'm able to help them grow because of that.

Was there one thing, is there, has there been anything that you've changed your mind, like one piece of information or advice that you've changed your mind on?

When I initially wrote The Energy Bus, I wrote about George having his vision and mission, the main character.

Yeah.

And bring it to his team and saying, okay, here's my vision and mission. I want you on my bus. Now I would write it as George met with his team and said, what should our vision and mission be? Let's create it together and then let's get on the bus. Like, let's get more buy-in at first.

Mm. That's important.

Yeah.

In a, in a court for, for, yeah. I mean, in a corporate—

I was thinking of the entrepreneur in mind where you know where you're going.

Yes.

Totally. You know your vision and you're taking it to your team and let's get on. But there's a lot of situations where you already have the team and you probably should take it to them first and go, all right guys, what's our vision? What's our mission? Where do we wanna go? What do we wanna create? So I would say that was, uh, That's one of the things I've changed my mind on. I've changed my mind on a lot of things, but I would say that was one. Another one is maybe like, you know, this might be funny, but maybe not be like, like maybe we didn't go to the moon. You know, like my daughter's trying to convince me that we did not actually land on the moon. And I sort of go, maybe we didn't. Because when you really look at it, and in the 1960-something, '70, did we really have the technology for the president to talk to the astronauts like, like in outer space? During that time? Did we really have that technology?

Oh, so you think that didn't happen?

I don't know. I don't know. I question it. I question it.

Is that interesting?

Yeah, I question it. I, I, I don't think that's so crazy to think that either. I, I question it and I'm just not sure we had that technology to go to the moon at that time. At that time.

So you think it's a—

Now we could, I believe. But, but then I don't think we had that technology. I think it was, it was all done for, for the arms race to develop, you know, to get support behind it. I think there's been a lot of things that have been done along the way that were communicated to us to get the people to buy in that may not have been true.

Who was the most impressive leader?

By the way, I've never said that before publicly, so—

Don't worry. I think that's interesting. I wasn't expecting you to say that.

And I'm not saying, again, and if I could be proven—

That's a conspiracy theory.

That we call that. But If I could be proven wrong, you know, I'd be fine to be proven wrong.

I know, you're just— but no, you're just saying that.

I question it. By the way, look at the—

1968, 1967.

What kind of technology did we have to go to the actual moon?

You know, I don't know.

When you, when you think about it, I— it's just hard to put all the pieces together. And again, did we really have the technology for the president to be on the phone with the astronaut in outer space at that time. I can't even get a signal now in a lot of places.

I know that.

How did that happen in 1968? 70 years old.

That's true, actually. Okay, so I don't know. Fair.

Yeah, I don't know.

I like that. That's fair.

I don't know.

Okay, I have one more question for you. Who is the most impressive person you've ever met in your life? Wow.

I mean, I can't say— there's been a lot. Okay, but Dave Roberts is the best. Sean McVay is amazing. Dabo Sweeney, is unbelievable as a leader. Like, one of them—

did you ever meet any world leaders? Okay, name one.

I met Bill Clinton. I was not— I was not impressed.

Uh, I was gonna say, like, you know, a lot I find in life on— quite honestly, and John, tell me if this is—

I took a hike with RFK. RFK and I went for a hike.

He takes a hike with everybody.

Oh, really? I thought I was special.

No, unfortunately. Um, um, and I'm not impressed, to be honest, but maybe other people would like I didn't, but I probably could if I asked. I mean, I think he's fine. I think he's—

Yeah, I don't think he was one of the most impressive people I've ever met.

I mean, do you think? I mean, no shade at him. He's fine. I'm just not really like— He's not like someone I'm like, oh wow, I got to meet that guy. You know?

Yeah. I mean, I enjoyed our hike. We had a nice conversation.

Where was it? In Florida?

No, Santa Monica.

Oh, Santa Monica.

In the hills there. I mean, really sweet guy. Nice conversation.

How did that even happen?

That's a long story.

Okay, well, we have time.

I was, uh, can you make it? When he was initially running for president, we were— we had a place out here in Santa Monica, and we, we were invited to come just hear what he had to say.

Oh, I was invited to that too.

Yeah, over there in, um, Palisades.

I went to this thing where he was talking before he was even running for the thing. Was I there?

No, this was when he was actually officially running.

Oh, this one? No, he was officially running here too, but he It was like he was running for president. He wasn't running for the other—

Yeah, he was running for president.

Yes, yes.

Right. So, so we went to that and I asked him a question on culture.

Mm-hmm. Of course you did.

Of what his, what his core values were.

Mm-hmm.

And then someone came up to me afterwards and said, hey, will you talk to him about culture? Like, 'cause that's really a great question and something we really need to talk about. And someone I think knew who I was and they said, would you do that? I said, yeah, sure. And so we went for a hike. Couple days later and talked about culture and talked about his core values. And I gave him my opinion on what I thought he represented, what his essence were. And he asked me some questions. We had a nice conversation with his dogs as we're walking up the, you know, the hill there. And yeah, just, just sweet guy.

Okay.

So yeah, he's something I never expected. And all of a sudden next thing you know, I'm hiking with RFK.

No, he's, he's, he's, he seems, he's actually my, my friend, Uncle.

Oh really?

Yeah, another Kennedy. Yeah.

Um, so listen, does she get along with them?

I think she— yeah, she does.

Part of the family that they don't—

oh, I know, there's a whole part that hate him, the other part like him. It's like a whole thing. They get along very nice.

The things he has shared make a lot of sense in terms of his positions on health and so forth have been pretty accurate of what he's been sharing.

Yeah, I have no problem with him at all. I mean, I have really no problem with But when I think of the most impressive people in the world, he's not one of them.

Yeah.

You know, no offense to him. I'm sure he's very nice. I'm sure he's very smart. He's very fine. He's great. I mean, fine. I'm just saying, of all the people in the world—

I like Condoleezza Rice a lot. Like, I always—

Okay, so now we're talking.

I always thought—

Okay, so that's more impressive to me.

I met her. I met her at the San Francisco 49ers training camp.

Okay.

When I spoke to them.

Okay.

And she was there and we had a nice conversation and I thought, But she's really impressive. I would vote for her for president.

I liked her too. Yeah.

I remember she was, I liked her a lot.

She was very impressive.

And I, I even say like, I even put her on the ballot as I liked her, my choice for president when I was voting.

She was good. Okay. What, what did she—

she's someone I would, I would vote for. I like her a lot.

Did you meet Bill Clinton or work with Bill Clinton?

No, I was speaking at, at an event and he was there speaking as well. And it was, I was in Atlanta, but it wasn't great cuz he hit on my wife. And so he did. Yeah. So it's a whole other conversation.

Oh my God. Tell me what happened.

No, I'm not even going there.

What do you mean? That's the best thing you said all day. Finally, I'm getting some kind of good juice.

That was the best thing.

I wanna know the tea.

We just talked about the secrets of life and that was the best.

I don't wanna talk about leadership anymore. I wanna know how Bill Clinton hit on your wife. That's much more exciting. And I'm sure people are much more interested in that. What happened?

We just were at the event and she was there and he just was giving her the googly eyes and like wouldn't, like, like, like say, like shaking hands, greeting people. I was backstage with, with them.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But he was there and as he was doing it, he like, he just stopped and, like, wouldn't go continue on, kept going to her. And there was more to the story.

Tell me. Oh, wait, I'm listening. I can't.

I just can't.

I just can't. I just can't. How many years ago was this?

Oh, this was many, many years ago.

Like, how many?

This is when he was— I think he was president. This is when he was—

he was— oh my God. Like 30 years. Was he stripping Monica Lewinsky this time?

This was in Atlanta. And so I was in my 20s. 90s. So yeah, this, yeah, this would've been in the '90s.

Oh my God. We're talking like 35 years ago. Yeah. Oh geez.

Okay. Yeah. But, but I, but I was hoping it was more recent than that. No, no.

Okay.

But I, you know, I met George, you know, George W. as well.

And he was— but did you work with any of these people?

Work with? Yeah.

Like did anybody, who was the most impressive person that hired you?

There's a lot of CEOs that are just like unbelievable. Like Doug Conant, the former CEO of Campbell Campbell's Soup is very impressive. Amazing individual, Doug Conant. He turned around Campbell's Soup. I mean, I would say he's pretty amazing.

Okay.

Evan Spiegel hired me, you know, with Snapchat.

Mm. Okay. And you know, to do what, a speaking gig?

So Evan was really struggling with, with Snapchat.

Yeah.

I remember a year ago, 2017.

Mm-hmm.

And he read The Power of Positive Leadership, like right when it came out. And I get a call outta the blue. From his team. And I didn't even know who he was really, and, and didn't know he was married to, you know, a famous model.

Was it, um, was he married to—

really great, great, really great guy. And so, yeah, so he reached out, and then I went up to, uh, Napa where they were having just his leadership retreat, and I went and worked with his leaders, his top leaders, and we talked about positive leadership and how to turn around the company. It's really cool. I had him on my podcast and he shared how that meeting, how that time, what I taught them was a game changer. They turned around the company.

It did.

During that time. And, and, and it was, it was, it was positive leadership that helped them turn around. So I love that. Yeah. And that was billion, I mean, that's billions of dollars in profit. So when leaders say, well, what kind of return can you provide? Well, I work with Snapchat and help them turn around their company. I took another company from $60 million to $100 million, this company billions. I mean, I've helped these collective leaders probably make billions and billions of dollars.

Yeah.

And all these sports franchises make billions of dollars and work and growth and championships and what those are worth. So yeah, so I would say, you know, a lot of CEOs that I've worked with, some I can't say because, uh, you know, confidentiality, but some of the largest companies in our country will call me up and ask for my advice and I'll give them advice on leadership, which is again, so ironic because I was a horrible leader and not the most positive person on earth.

So life is full of irony.

It's amazing what God could do. Yeah. I always say I'm proof that miracles are possible.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, I find life to be super ironic.

Yeah. It's wild. It's, it's amaz— it's an amazing journey. I could have never imagined what I'm doing now. My parents never made more than $30,000 a year combined. You know, now I'm $80,000 for a keynote. So, but it took my parents almost 3 years to make what I make in one speech.

It's crazy.

And I think about that all the time. Like, I really am very grateful that I get to do this. And my wife give— and I give a lot back. Like, we are just so grateful, and we don't think we're better than anyone. We just know that we've been blessed and very lucky, because my life could have turned out many different ways, many times, many times. But by the hand of God.

I love that. Oh my gosh, John, I'm so happy to have you on the show.

I loved being on it. You were, you were awesome.

Awesome. Thank you. You're so awesome.

I met a sister from, from, from 100 years ago.

I was gonna say, doesn't it feel like we've known each other 100 years?

We're both Jewish, so there you go. I know, but I, I'm, I am a 98%, I said 100% earlier, I'm a 98% Ashkenazi Jew, which we probably have ancestors who are from the same place.

Probably.

Austria. I'm all part Austrian, Russian, some Polish, Lithuanian. I don't know what your background is.

Polish, Russian. Yeah. Well, a lot of Israeli.

Israeli.

Okay, a lot of Israeli.

Your family from Israel?

Yeah, my mom's Israeli. Really? Yeah.

And wow, okay, then you're more Sephardic then.

I'm more— no, I'm actually more— well, I'm half—

I'm—

well, my grandmother is from Poland. My— okay, my grandfather was Israeli. My mom was born in Israel, blah blah blah.

Probably related, you know, down.

Yeah, we're probably like second cousins.

Yeah, no, yeah, like we probably are in some capacity because I— my daughter just went on genealogy.com. Okay, I started doing research on that, and we, we found my biological father's side of the family and where they came from, and then my grandmother's side of the family. Like, my grandmother— I found out on my grandmother's side she's Austrian, but my grandmother's father and mother came from Romania and Ukraine. So Romania and Ukraine, but they met in Austria. So I'm actually part Ukrainian, part Romanian, but that met in Austria. So I always thought I was just Austrian, but oh, I have Romanian and Ukrainian. Wow. And Sean McVay's wife is from Ukraine.

Really?

Yeah. So I text him, I said, hey, I found out I'm part Ukrainian. He goes, I knew you had some toughness in you.

Right, right, right, right.

Because Ukrainians are really tough.

Very tough. So, I mean, unbelievably tough.

Yeah. So, so again, I guarantee we have some ancestry. No doubt. There's no doubt, uh, down that path. I just, I just I chose to become a follower of Jesus on this journey.

I was going to bring it up, and I'm like, I'm not even going to go there. But why did you do that?

I had an encounter with Jesus that changed my life. I really had a spiritual encounter. I never thought I would believe what I believe. It's been a miraculous encounter.

What do you mean you had an encounter?

So I was a Buddhist, and I was a New Ager, like a lot of Jews. And I was a meditator, and I was seeking, like, seeking. And always struggling with this anxiety and fear that doesn't go away.

So you really, you really have anxiety to a certain—

I was, I would— not anymore. I don't, not anymore. My faith changed me, transformed my heart and soul. And so what happened was I—

what year were we talking?

We're talking in, uh, 9— no, we're talking I became a follower of Jesus at 35 when I was 2000 and— wow, 2006, 2007. Yeah. I'm 55 now, so 20 years ago, but 35 is pretty old when, you know, to, to have that transformation. And what happened was I was struggling with all of that, and I remember I was meditating. I started seeing a glowing cross in my meditations. And then a friend of mine during that time gave me a sermon, and the sermon was called Why I Follow Jesus. So I listened to it and it was about, it was about Jesus as a Jewish rabbi, and it talked about how he was Jewish. And it talked about how he walked and why the disciples would follow, because they were Jews. They were Jews, and they followed him because he was a rabbi and said, come and follow me. Like, someone actually believed in them. And it was called Covered in Dust. And it was about why Jesus would go from town to town. And when someone, like, did not get on the bus, did not follow them, just, you know, cover in dust. Just keep walking.

Take the dust off your feet and just dust off and go. And I'm listening to this sermon about Jesus, the Jewish rabbi, and it just really spoke to me. And then I said this prayer. I said, all right, God, if he is who he said he was, you know, show me the signs. So I'm driving out to Orlando and I'm looking to the left and I hear, look, and I turn to the right and there's a sign on the billboard that says, Jesus is the answer. So I got these encounters with glowing crosses, that sign. I go see a Buddhist energy healer. A Buddhist energy healer. So I go see him and I go, hey, hey, Don, I'm having all these problems with my stomach. He's working on my stomach. He's doing Thai organ massage. Yeah, he's like a Rolfer, if you know anything.

Yeah, okay. So he's doing that.

Yeah, he's doing all that. I'm really into that. Always saw the world in terms of energy. So I believe in energy medicine, all that good stuff, and I still do. And I said, Don, I'm seeing all these signs that said Jesus is the answer. What do you make of that? He goes, oh, that's simple. I'm a Buddhist. I'm trying to attain enlightenment on my own. He goes, with, with Jesus, all you do is believe and receive. I said, what do you mean? He goes, Jesus takes your soul pain. He takes your heavy vibrational energy. Christians call it sin. He goes, you can't connect to a perfect, harmonious, energetic God if you have heavy vibrational energy. He said, Jesus just takes that so you can connect to God. I said, I said, uh, can I take someone's soul pain? He goes, can you handle your own? And I walked outta there believing that that there would— that Jesus, literally, the purpose was to take my, my burden, my pain, allow me to connect to the Father God, Yahweh, the Jewish God that we believe in, and would connect me to him. And in that connection, I would find peace and joy, love and power.

And that is what's happened in my life. It has transformed my life. No anxiety, heart, soul, power transformation. Peace has changed So that's, that's my faith journey. I never thought I would share that with a fellow Jew like that.

Yeah.

But, but that, but it changed me. And so it's why I believe, and I'm not saying everybody, you know, should believe what I believe. That's just my story and that's what's happened to me. But then I meet all these other Jews that are now followers of Jesus too. I was at a Passover Seder with a bunch of Jews who became followers of Jesus. One guy died a Jew and came back to life and Jesus came to him when he was dead in his, like, dead and literally like brought him out of it and he was alive and has now followed Jesus. Like these incredible stories. Rabbi Jason Sobel, just go read Rabbi Jason Sobel's books. They're amazing. He gives the context of Judaism and Hebrew. Yeah, Hebrew and how it all connects, how the New Testament and the Old Testament are connected. And you can see that one connects to the other and that it can't be explained by human hands. And you can see how God orchestrated it all. And that's why I say we're one team. We're not on separate teams. We're on one team. Because my relatives, when I became a believer from Long Island, my Jewish relatives, they were like, I can't believe you.

There's so few of us and you left the team. I go, no, we're still the same team. We're on the same team. We're all one team. We're not meant to be separate teams. And my goal is to unite people. And I meet so many Jews who have such amazing faith, and there's so much power in the Jewish tradition that people need to understand and live. I have I have many Jewish friends who don't even know about their Jewish tradition. They don't know about their heritage. They don't know about the old stories of David and Solomon.

Yeah, but that's also pretty sad.

It's very sad.

They need to. I wish people were more knowledgeable and more educated.

Oh, they need to.

And took that initiative for themselves.

There's so much power in it.

There's so much power.

I tell my Jewish friends, I'm like, just get back to your faith. There's so much power in the Jewish faith.

So what does that mean if you're like a Jew for Jesus versus a Jew for what?

So the only difference is that I believe that Jesus Messiah. And I believe that he's still coming. You believe that he's still coming? I do. Because the Jews believe that he's still coming. And I believe that all those signs and my own experience shows me and tells me that he's here. He already came because he's already living in me. And I don't—

okay, does that mean you don't celebrate?

Spirit lives in you, but you could still celebrate all the Jewish traditions. It doesn't change. Like, I am never going to change. Like, I am still of Jewish heritage.

Like, would you celebrate Passover?

Yeah.

So would you celebrate Yom Kippur?

Yeah.

Do you fast on Yom Kippur?

I did. I, I didn't this year, but I have in the past.

Okay, but do a lot of Jews for Jesus celebrate that?

Yeah, people still honor their, their, their past traditions. You can still be Jewish and still believe in Jesus.

Do they just abide?

Yes, some do. Yeah, there are those that do. Yep. The thing is, you're—

then why is there such, um, a negative connotation when Jewish people become, uh, Christians? Christians. Is it because we're such a small community?

Yes, and people feel like you're going to a different team, right?

Like you're like like kind of giving up on, on your Jewish heritage, on your Jewishness, because they're so—

here's what I often think: if, if they come after the Jews, if people do, I've got to take a stand for the Jews because like, like that, that's something that I would never ignore, the Jewish people, because that's part of who I am. So it's like you don't give up your heritage and who you are, what makes you who you are. But at the same time, I would say my faith in God, like overall my faith My faith comes first, but my faith also says stand up for people. But I'm best inclined not to go after people, but to unite people and connect people and be someone who could be a bridge rather than divider. But if someone's attacking someone and they're gonna try to kill them and come after my family, well then you would have to fight back in, in that regard and take a stand for those who are getting hurt. And so for those who are being attacked, and like, I have really good friends who are Jewish. Mike Levine is the head of CA Sports.

Mm-hmm.

And he's often posts you know, about, you know, about just, you know, and I'll reach out to Mike. Hey Mike, I stand with you. Like, I will always stand with my, you know.

So when October 11th happened, yeah, what happened with you? Did you stand with the Jewish people?

Oh yeah. I mean, no, it was, you know, when you see that happen, it was just, uh, it was, it's just pure heartbreak. I mean, just heartbreak. But I have to be honest, I would, I would take a stand with anybody who was attacked that way. Like, I would, I would feel that. I have empathy, a lot of empathy. So I would feel that for any group group that was attacked that way. But like, my wife and I had dinner with a bunch of Israelis and great conversation just on hearing their standpoint, how they see the world. And it was so interesting. And they talked about October 11th and just hearing it from their perspective. Good friend of mine, Mark Lawrence, you know, Lawrence Foods, just a great human being, very strong in his faith and, you know, supporting Israel. And I'll listen to Mark and hear his standpoint.

So do you support Israel?

Of course. I mean, but there's a difference. It's like saying, do you support everything the US government does? I don't have to support everything the Israeli government does to support Israel and the Israeli people.

Right? Yes.

I support America. I'm a huge believer in America. I'm a big fan of America. I love our country. But I also know that our government is very corrupt at times. Our government can be very corrupt. I think most governments have corruption to it. So when you say support Israel, it's like, it's not this blanket thing.

It's right.

So it's, I'm going to support everything about Israel and everything they do. Just like I'm going to, I'm American, I believe in America, but I'm not blind to the fact that there's a lot of corruptions in our government over the years from Republican, Democrat, and all different political persuasions. Absolutely. So at times I think You know, I did run for city council when I was 26 years old in Atlanta. So there were times I think maybe I'll run one day. And, but I also know that it's so divisive.

Mm-hmm.

And there are power structures put in place that can destroy your life. And that's the scary part. If you're not of that power, you, you go in with your beliefs, ideals, but totally, if you're not part of that power structure, they could destroy your life and they could destroy you.

Mm-hmm.

So it's, there's a lot of thought around that. Like maybe I'm just supposed to stay and do what I'm like, if I was ever, but if I, if I felt God calling me, 'cause again, I know God calls me 'cause every book I've written, I get an idea and I write it in 3, 3 and a half weeks. Wow. Yeah. So I know that. So when an idea comes, I know I'm just meant to write it. If I get called and go, all right, I want you to go run for office, I will follow and I will do that. Like, I'm pretty obedient. Like, I literally have, as I'm walking, I get ideas, I get inclinations of what I'm supposed to do.

And you're a good human being.

Yeah. And I, and I, I have good intentions. Intentions.

Are you good intent? That's the most important thing.

And, and good human being. You have to have good intentions, good actions, and you have to care about people and do the right thing. Integrity. And I know, like me, you know, I always live with the end in mind. Like, 25 years from now, they're going to be telling stories about you. What kind of stories do you want them, right, to tell?

Well, I think also, like they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Oh, that's good, right? So it's got to be good action.

It's good. That's why the good action piece is the most important part.

Good action says is who you are.

Yeah, good. Everyone, everyone has— I don't think any— most people are not malice or have bad intentions. It's what happens after that, right? It's like, let's say the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but then something happens and it turns to not so good.

We can do a show where we just talk about different topics. We can literally go back and forth with different topics. Because as you're saying that, I think, you know, one thing I do want to say, people listening, because we talked about Jewish and Christian, I know you probably have Jewish listeners there's— I saw this pastor the other day give a great lesson where he said, you know, he goes, if, if someone of my faith tried to tell you how to live and what you should believe, he said, I'm sorry, because we should not be doing that. If you read the Bible and what Jesus said to do, you're literally not supposed to do that. You're supposed to just live that way.

Yeah.

And then I shared a point, and I shared with my son, and my son has a really strong faith, and he goes, no, Dad, the Great Commission. The Great Commission means you go make disciples. And the idea is that I said, Cole, yeah, there's the Great Commission, but that means telling people about Jesus and how he changed your life is actually the Great Commission. Yeah, but you're not supposed to tell people how you should live and the values they should have. You're supposed to live those values and tell people how God changed your life, and that's what you need to do. So I, I wrote this today, it came to me. I said, don't tell people how to but share how God and the Holy Spirit lives in you and transforms you.

Yeah.

That's the key.

I love that. Yeah. Oh my God. Okay, my leg's falling asleep. I need to like wrap this thing. I swear these chairs are like—

How long have we been talking?

I don't know.

Seems like forever.

So many hours. I don't even know. But the only reason why this chair, my new chairs haven't come into my studio. So these are like, I have like sciatica on this leg and it is killing me.

You remind me of my Jewish cousin, by the way. You remind me of my cousin. Really? I said, "My sciatica, my back. It's like, what am I gonna do about that?" Like, I'm like, "How am I gonna deal with this?" I mean, the minute I walked in, I'm like, "Oh, there's my sister right there. There's my cousin." That's so funny.

Oh yeah, it's hilarious. Oh, I love that. Yeah, it's hilarious. Oh my God, you're gonna have a guest in your Jupiter, whatever you want.

Yeah, well, we're in, yeah, you can come visit us anytime.

Oh, you're so nice. I'm going to. It's 5 o'clock. We've been talking for, you don't wanna know how many hours. Okay.

An hour and a half?

No, way more. 2 and a half. What? Yes.

I was supposed to meet our friend David Nurse for, uh, for hamburger as well.

Sorry. Oh, are you serious?

Yeah.

Well, uh, you're a little late.

Sorry, David. I saw you a couple weeks ago.

This is fine. Exactly. You're not meeting David Nurse right now. Um, okay, so guys, pick up the book The Power of Positive Habits. Uh, Jon Gordon, follow him on Instagram. And please, this is where I say to you guys, if you have not yet subscribed to this podcast, please. I always forget to say something. It makes such a difference in the algorithm and all the things that are important on the back end to make this podcast go, go, you know, continue to move and go. So please subscribe. And thank you so much for being my guest.

It's a great one. Definitely subscribe.

Thank you. Thank you, guys. Bye.