Transcript of Episode 575: Dr. Jonathan Schoeff: Peptides and the Marketing Behind Modern Longevity - Part 2

Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it.

Welcome to the Habits and Hustle podcast, where I sit down with the world's biggest thinkers, entrepreneurs, athletes, and experts to uncover the habits, strategies, and mindset shifts that actually move the needle in your health, happiness, and success. And today I'm back with Dr. Jonathan Sheff. A surgeon, longevity expert, and co-founder of the Longevity Lab, who is still very actively practicing medicine, I should say. After part 1, we knew there was way too much left over that we had to keep on going. So in this part of the conversation, we get into the stuff everyone is talking about, but very few people actually understand, which is GLP-1s, muscle loss, fasting, testosterone biomarkers, grip strength, movement, sleep, longevity metrics, which are actually worth paying attention to. What I love about Dr. Jonathan is that he does not make health more complicated to sound smart. He breaks it down in a way that makes you question the trend, understand the mechanism, and come back to the basics that actually moves the needle. What he shares in this episode will change the way you think about GLP-1, fasting, muscle, and health markers that you should actually be tracking. So let's dive in.

Enjoy.

Yeah, no matter what, then you can— yeah, then you can—

are they all SkinBetter that you like?

I do like the SkinBetter formulations. I know it's—

it's— I know it's goofy. Yeah, it's not— why is it goofy? It's not goofy.

Oh, well, because as a guy—

as a guy, well, you're like very, uh, you know, you take care of yourself.

Well, I'm I'm taken care of. That's, that's how it works. Okay, well, I do what I'm told.

You don't.

Okay, I do what I'm told.

Well, it's working.

Yeah.

Okay. Now we can get into the GLP-1 stuff. Okay. So you said that retatrutide is— are you on any of these GLPs?

Life-changing? No, I've used all of them.

You have used all of them?

Absolutely. Well, well, semaglutide and up. So semaglutide, tirzepatide, retatrutide. I've used all of them.

So if people are having like— so between tirzepatide and retatrutide, I know one works on two receptors.

Yep.

One works on three receptors. So you believe it's a tool and you don't believe everyone should be on them, even though you're talking about the insulin resistance and to build muscle. So here comes the contradiction, right?

Totally.

So if muscle is the biggest longevity organ to keep your insulin low, right? Yet GLP-1s have been obviously known to, like, break down muscle and eat away at your muscle.

They've been blamed. They've been blamed. Alleged.

Alleged.

Alleged.

Yes.

Let's use that.

Okay, so you don't think that the GLP-1—

it's not that, it's not that simple. No, no. Well, I mean, I know the data. Okay, so if you look at the STEP 1 trial, which was the first semaglutide weight loss trial, 2021. Okay, what did it demonstrate? This is really important. 40% loss of lean body mass, LBM. So the problem is, and I just saw a post on this just the other day, lean body mass is not skeletal muscle. Okay, they're not the same thing. The 40% is lean body mass. So if you want to make the argument, or say you're a personal trainer, you want you want to get your hustle and, or you want to do some peptides, this, then the other, then you say, oh my gosh, 40% loss of skeletal muscle. No, it's lean body mass. And realize that lean body mass includes skeletal muscle as one component. In healthy, fit individuals, that may, may reach the 50% mark. In other words, 50% of your lean body mass in a very fit, well-muscled individual can be skeletal muscle. Okay. That's in a really fit person. Yep. So it goes down from there. In other words, no one lost 40% of their muscle.

That's not reality. So it's, it's lean tissue, so it excludes fat mass, but it also includes organ mass. So non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, which is what, what retatrutide 100% reduced their, their fatty liver, which is, that's a game changer from a health perspective. In that case, that's a part of lean body mass. So losing, improving the metabolic function of your liver, losing liver fat is a very good thing, and that's lean body mass too. So it's just not as clean as, you know, Ozempic chews up muscle. Okay. Now I do agree that early on, and this was the age-old story with any drug, misuse and abuse, that's always what brings it down. So yes, when personal trainers and nurses and all these people were handing out Ozempic without any, any Clarity, any reason? Bear in mind, Ozempic's like an anorexic's best friend. I mean, it was abused at an extreme level. It's— I think it still is. But the thing about semaglutide was that by far and away is the most profound appetite suppressant. So yes, were people starving?

Yeah.

Yeah. And if you look at the scientific literature, the nutrition literature about highly restrictive dieting, you can lose up to 75% of lean body mass. How do we know that? All you got to do is watch The Biggest Loser, right?

You can just like— exactly right. You can say that it's because the app, you're just not eating.

If you're, if you, if you're in a profound calorie deficit from restriction, whether you're called an anorexic or someone on semaglutide, yes, you risk muscle. I agree with that. But it doesn't have to be that way. In fact, I think GLPs create a very unique environment to actually augment muscle. I mean, what I see in my practice every day with, with our protocols is literally pure fat loss. They don't lose a pound of muscle and they lose pure fat. Strategic fasting. I mean, that's the secret sauce. But, but GLPs fit incredibly well into that overall strategy.

Wait a minute. So strategic fasting, is there a way to fast where you can only, where you only lose fat and not—

yeah, 100% muscle. 100%. I've got— I mean, I could line them up.

Well, you're fasting now, right?

I am fasting now, yes.

How long are you fasting for?

Uh, oh, just fast for the day. Just so whatever you want to call that.

I—

so I call it 24-hour fasting, technically maybe 34, 36. It doesn't matter a ton to me.

Okay, but are you a person who doesn't care about food? No.

You mean like How do you think you're—

what I mean by that is like, right, but like, so you're someone who maybe like sees food as fuel, not as like as friend. As friend.

I think all people should see food as fuel, not as friend. You have to look, and this is one of the conversations. So when I meet a new client, what is your— I, I ask—

I love food.

I know. So I'll tell you a true story.

Okay.

I had a client, uh, several years ago I asked, I said, what's your relationship with food? And she said, I have a very loving marriage with food. And I said, well, I'm going to be the guy that causes a divorce. Um, but food, remember, they're— what's your relationship with food, alcohol, anything on the list? Yes. Do they all have the potential to have detrimental health effects?

Sure.

Does that mean they're detrimental to your health in existence? No, not at all. I do try to help people retool their thought process around food as primarily a fuel. It's a fuel first. Enjoying your food, 100%, I'm all for it. Being dependent on your food, that's very different. And right, I think that's the line that gets blurred in America.

Okay, wait a minute. Okay, so there's, okay, fat, you're like, so fasting to you Why is it so important and how do you do it where you can maintain your lean muscle mass? And if someone's not a faster, how do they become a faster when they love food and like they can't even imagine not eating and use it as an energy source? Like, I don't know if you're someone who's an actual— if you work out a lot or you're super active, the idea of not eating is super difficult for me.

It can be. Yeah, it can be for sure.

Now you can answer all those questions.

I know, like, I gotta remember. Okay, so why fast? First of all, it is the most potent, powerful activator of a biologic pathway called AMPK. A-M-P-K. You've heard of— let's see, all the, the, the— have you heard of rapamycin? Yes, that's, that's a big idea. Okay, so rapamycin upregulates AMPK. That's why you would take it. So it shuts down mTOR, which is a growth pathway. There's, in the body, there's growth and repair. Let's make it super simple. Yin and yang, right? You can have, they can be coincident. You can be doing activities minute to minute that are favoring growth while also allowing for repair. But as we age, as you can imagine, you technically, and this is what all the, the longitudinal data would would say is you need relatively more time to repair because there's— just think of it basic— there's more opportunity for error. What is cancer? It's unchecked growth by definition. So if we don't allow that time for repair, the body can be exclusively based in this, in a, in a growth mode. What, what you see right now in longevity as a whole, right? You have two camps. Think of it very simply.

You have an mTOR camp. Like a Gabrielle Lyon, grow, grow, grow, muscle, muscle, muscle, leucine, insulin, everything to activate growth, which I have a huge profound respect for Gabrielle Lyon and what she's done, like women's health, just inspiring people. But that high protein resistance training, progressive overload, that's a growth mindset. Then you see the other camp, which is the repair mindset. So that's, that growth is mTOR. M-T-O-R, repair, A-M-P-K. I know it's geeky, but that repair pathway, what does someone who embraces repair pathways look like?

Okay.

They fast a lot, ketogenic diets. So, and so they're typically frail. Does that make sense?

Yeah. I mean, I don't like that mindset. I'd rather be on the growth side. Correct.

So this is the challenge. You have to be both. It doesn't work in isolation. So we've entered a very extreme time and this is why some people are spouting off like, oh, what's gonna come from all the high protein rage?

Mm-hmm.

Now I don't have those concerns. I, I think invariably when you look at average protein consumption for an American is so low that increasing that, there's no harm attached to that. But this is what makes me a longevity expert, is I understand the potential detriment of growth and repair, and I use those two pathways strategically. Instead of being at the mercy of the human body and human biology, we should be able to actually strategically control these mechanisms. The most powerful tool we have to tell the body it's repair time is fasting. No, not intermittent fasting, but legitimate sustained water-only fasting greater than 24 hours. Okay. So we can use that mechanism. I can fast on a Saturday. And do a complete reset in my body so that my, uh, our, our endgame is something called metabolic flexibility. I know this is geeky, but we've talked about metabolic flexibility is synonymous in the human body. The best example of metabolic flexibility in human body is insulin sensitivity. What metabolic flexibility is, this, it is the most efficient use of fuel sources based on condition and environmental need. So using fat when you're not running from a bear or the cops, and using carbs when you need rapidly available fuel.

This is the limitation with the ketogenic diet. Eliminating carbs is not the answer. Okay. Okay.

Well, wait, so you see what I'm saying? I do, but wait.

So it's all a spectrum. It's a spectrum.

It's a spectrum. So you're saying, though, okay, so you need another shot. I do, really. I think I need like a box of these shots.

I think I have one.

Yeah, I think you do. Exactly. You have it in your bag. So basically then you're saying that we should be fasting for longer than 24 hours, not a water— like you're saying it's a water fast. So you can have water basically. That's what you're drinking. Oh, so you didn't fast because you had a Magic Mind.

Yeah, but I looked at the ingredients. Yeah, it has allulose in it.

So you're allowed to have things on your fast? Sure.

Well, you just said zero calorie, zero carbohydrate for sure. So yeah, no non-nutritive. So all, allulose is a non-nutritive sweetener.

So that little Magic Mind Shot has 50 calories.

Okay.

So that's okay. Sure. So what are you allowed to have on a fast? Uh, coffee.

I say black coffee.

But why, why could you put some cream in then?

Uh, because of the impact of fat on the fast. Now it has less of an impact, but there is an element of energy balance that influences a fast.

Okay, so why can you have a Magic Mind on a fast?

Because there's nothing in it. It was just, uh, what, what do we— I was looking at Lion's Mane, rhodiola. It's a great blend of, of nutraceuticals, vitamins, minerals, and then allulose is a non-nutritive sweetener.

So basically people can have that on a fast.

Sure. Yeah. You want a 5-Hour Energy? Go nuts. You want a Celsius? Be my guest. You, I don't know what it, whatever you like to do. I would strong. So on a fast, I recommend to my clients minimum of 400 grams of caffeine or 400 milligrams, excuse me, minimum of 400 milligrams caffeine.

Okay.

Somewhere between, for my male clients, usually 400 to 600 milligrams. That's a reasonable threshold for a woman, probably in the 200 to 400 range. Okay. So definitely caffeine because it's an accelerant for fat burning. Okay. So we want the key. This is the way it works and this is why it's so simple. Okay. This is the crux of fasting and I can explain why. So why do we fast? We fast to first and foremost reset the system, force the body into one condition and one condition only, which is ultimately defined by ketosis or ketone production, but that's not why we're doing it. We're doing it to zero out our insulin levels for that period of time. Insulin is the gatekeeper. So if you are into the aesthetic body comp goals, fast. If you are into the autophagy clearance of senescent zombie cells, fast. If you're into long-term health, healthspan, lifespan, longevity by definition, fast. It's all fasting. But fasting physiology, what drives it above all else is normalizing insulin. So when you have insulin, it's fascinating. Insulin is very, very, very engaging with fat cells. And insulin is pretty simple. It's a master switch. And this is, oh, this is going to bring us full circle to RediTruType.

Why does RediTruType, what makes it so unique? So we talk all about insulin resistance. Insulin resistance is a byproduct of a failed system, lifestyle-mediated. Insulin itself is not bad at all. Think of, you remember Goonies? Did you ever see a movie?

Goonies? Of course.

Yeah. You know Sloth?

I don't remember.

Chunk.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know Chunk's the big bald guy, the, the one, the guy they kept in the basement.

Yeah.

The Sloth. I had to look that name up, by the way. Think of insulin as Sloth. It's like the big dumb older brother. He's not intelligent, but he's highly protective.

Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm.

That's what insulin is to the human body. It's protecting the human body from the most toxic poisonous agent. This is a true statement that exists in circulation, which is glucose.

Okay.

How I said it.

Yes, you did say it, but that doesn't have anything to do. Don't. Oh, okay.

Wait, that's not carbs. That's not sugar. It's glucose in your bloodstream.

How often? Do you fast?

It depends on what my current, the period that I'm in at any given time. So I will always fast intermittently, whether it be weekly, monthly, duration changes. But if I'm in a structured growth period, so I'm, my training intensity, rep range, nutrition, right now I'm on a 1.2 grams per pound protein intake. So everything's geared towards muscle growth. I'm anticipating probably about a 3-month interval. Okay. So during that period, the focus is growth. I'll use fasting once a week or every other week just to make sure that I'm accounting for that repair upgrade.

And how long are you doing it for? 36 hours, you said?

I typically, it's 34 to 36 hours. And here's why the problem with fasting, why does it go sideways? It's because no one knows what they're actually trying to accomplish. What you— I think you were saying this, like, I know people who fasted 7 days, 10 days, 5 days.

There's a 5-day fast. Why? To clean out the senescent cells, autophagy. That's what I've heard.

But, but, but how do we know that's happening in 5 days? Because I will prove it to you. If you look at my clinical data, that's for some people in 5 days of fasting, they still haven't cleared their glucose store sufficient to induce ketosis, which is ketosis, autophagy are linked, linked pathways. 5 days, someone— I had a client whose fasting glucose was still above 100. Do you know what that means? That is insane. We live in an overfueled, under-moving society. Okay. Obesity is a disease. It's a pathology of overfueling, right? And so if you're overfueled, under-muscled, and you don't move, Welcome to America. That's the problem.

So some— for some people, you're saying 5 days might not touch them?

Yes, 100%.

So they go 2 weeks?

Well, who knows, right? It's—

if—

would you ever get into an airplane where you know full well the instrument panel's out? No, of course not. No one's going to do that. So that's exactly what you're doing when you randomly pick a number that you heard Joe Rogan talk about and fast for X number of days. There's zero data. The difference, the crux of the whole conversation is that your body actually will tell you the exact prime time duration of your fast and it will change over time. It should.

So how do you know for you?

I follow serum ketones. Tells me exactly where I need to be.

So how do people do this?

Well, right now I'll tell you two things. One option is poking your finger. If you've ever seen like a diabetic poke their finger.

Okay.

That's old school.

Yeah.

There is a product made by Sibio, S-I-B-I-O. It is the first continuous ketone monitor. People wear glucose monitors.

Yeah.

Now I'm wearing a glucose monitor, continually checking glucose and continually checking ketones. That has totally changed.

You're wearing them right now?

Not, not currently, no. But I, I do.

Okay.

Yeah. No, I don't have any because I ripped my monitors off, uh, pushing a sled the other day. Oh, I was kind of irritated. My, uh, my guy was beating me down and and I was just like, put— and I ripped them all out. So anyway, I, I gotta put new ones on, and I don't wear them all the time. I just use the— this is the criticism around CGM in the general population. Oh my gosh, you know, people are just getting a bunch of data. Well, if it, if it's data that is understood and interpreted and applied, it's incredibly valuable. If it's just numbers on a sheet, sure, it's worthless.

Okay, so someone just starts today, would you just say just do 24 hours, 36 hours?

No, we have No, it's about the goal.

If they want to clean up their senescent cells, right? And they want for body composition and they want all that reset. Yeah, of course. Right.

So the relationship very plainly, and I will be honest, as a purist, I don't have human data specifically anti-senescent data or autophagy-based data. Very hard to do outside of like an academic lab. But the clearest correlation through a common pathway of AMPK upregulation is that more ketones equals more autophagy. It's a very simple way to look at it. So your speedometer, your— right, is all the same, right? So if that speedometer is going up, you're producing more ketones. You are by definition accelerating autophagy while you're also accelerating fat burning. The beauty is You're getting lean and fit and looking your best while you're clearing the bad stuff. This is why it drives me nuts. All the longevity experts are like, biohack this, biohack that.

Just fast.

Shut up and fast. You'll be just fine.

Really?

And guess what? It's free. In fact, actually, you save money. Yes. My fasts, if you saw the amount of food I eat on a regular basis, my fasts has, saves me $100 at least. Easy.

Really?

I mean, you're not hungry? No, not even slightly. Not even slightly.

Are you able to work out on that though?

Good question. So yes and no. I will be very strategic about focusing. So movement is everything during a fast. Okay, let's do this. So if you'll buy that there is a, a directed relationship, more ketones, more autophagy. So that's your ultimate longevity tool. More ketones only comes from one source. There's not like option A or B.

Okay.

If you have ketones in your bloodstream, they're coming from fat being broken down into free fatty acids and distributed in the bloodstream. This is the mechanism with which it happens. Okay. And the only thing that controls that is insulin. How do we know that to be true? Look at a type 1 diabetic. Do you know what kills type 1 diabetics acutely? Is something called diabetic ketoacidosis. When you have no insulin in your bloodstream, your fat just starts getting chewed through. More fat in the bloodstream, which is what we want, right?

Fat burn.

You wanna be lean, fit equals more ketones. It's a linear relationship. Does it?

Yeah, no, I'm following. Does that mean the same for, wait, women and men are different?

Yes. Yes. It means the exact same. No, women and men are humans.

So it doesn't matter.

Sorry.

So I thought like women is different with hormones and all these things.

We'd like you to believe that. Okay. This is another aside. Stay with me. There is something on the horizon, okay, that is going to transform our understanding of women's health. There's a company called Quinn Labs. Okay. I met their founder at some A4M event.

I think you go to A4M.

Yeah.

What are you going there for? To learn too. Oh, okay. Yeah.

I wanna know what's, what's happening.

Do you speak there?

I'm hopeful. I submitted my application. I'm hopeful to speak this year. Yeah. Oh, okay. At Longevity Fest. Yeah. Yeah. I really, I clearly have a lot to say.

Clearly. I don't hold anything back. Clearly.

No, no, no. And I can put a crowd to sleep with the monotone.

Yeah. No, no, no. You're doing great. You're not putting me to sleep. I do need another magic wine. No, sorry. Go ahead. Yes.

So, so the relationship, though, is very clear. So I just— what I stress to people is you have knowledge. It's not the duration, it's the intensity. Just like it's not the duration of exercise, it's the intensity, right? If you can accomplish whatever muscle growth, yes, max benefit for your aesthetic, for your performance, opposite in 30 minutes versus an hour, which do you pick?

30.

Of course. If you could put $1 million in your bank account in one month guaranteed Or you could kind of slave away for the next 5 years and maybe—

of course, a month. Yes.

So the only thing I haven't proven yet, which is where, where I'm headed with this in my clinical practice, is that indeed the intensity of ketosis correlates to the intensity of autophagy, meaning the higher the ketosis, the higher the autophagy. So what if you could do max cellular cleanup that the literature, the scientific evidence says 5 to 7 days of non-eating. Well, if you could accomplish that in 34 hours, I'm doing 34 hours every time. It's a no-brainer. Yeah. Because the problem with prolonged fasting is starvation physiology.

Mm-hmm.

Cortisol spikes. Cortisol is the most catabolic hormone in the body. Start breaking down muscle. And the tragedy is, and this is why I monitor for all my clients, we monitor glucose and ketones because I can tell you when your cortisol spikes. How on a dime? Well, your glucose spikes. And guess what happens when your glucose spikes? What? Insulin. And guess what happens when insulin happens? No more fat burn and you're done. So people are going through a fast, they may have a cortisol dump, shift into what's called— I would call it starvation physiology, but they start breaking down muscle and producing glucose in the bloodstream. Insulin hits. And all of a sudden their ketones go to zero.

So you're saying women, like premenopausal women with hormones and all these things, should be fasting? Absolutely.

Trillion percent. A trillion percent. And I'll tell you, so this goes back. So what's Quinn Labs doing, right? They're bringing a wearable to market. It's going to start as a finger stick, just like I'm talking about for ketones. So write these things down. SIBIO, continuous ketone monitoring, going to change the world. Quinn Labs, essentially continuous or frequent interval estrogen and cortisol. This is going to be transformative for our understanding because right now it's all theory, right? You've got the one influencer that's like, oh, don't work out during your luteal phase and this and that. I mean, I get that your hormones are changing, but the beauty is you want to have a failsafe. You want to have a zero, zero guide. To say, I don't care what's going on in your body, are you producing ketones? That's the answer. So do I have women fast in their luteal phase and generate a high-grade ketosis? Yes.

Wow. Okay.

So you're saying, but does that mean every woman does it? No. But the beauty is all I have to do is check one number to tell you. So if a woman starts their fast regardless, so my female clients once a week, every week, 6 weeks, So they go through the entire cycle, right?

So once a week you recommend to people to fast.

The, the accelerator protocol, what we, we call the Accelerate— Metabolic Accelerator is a once per week for 6 weeks protocol. And after that, then you do a 6-week recovery. So aggressive repletion of glycogen as your priority, and then shift back to a balanced nutritive state.

So every— so every 6 weeks.

So you could—

the way it's one on one week, what, every 6 on 6? Yeah, 6 on 6.

Yep. Wow. Yep. You can do that. So the targeted— oh my gosh, if I, if I pulled out my before and afters. Okay, this is the data in my practice. And by the way, I can record data in my practice and it does count as data.

Yes.

Just because it's not in a scientific article that's published doesn't make it not real.

Right.

Okay. So reproducibly in my client base, 6 weeks on average, 6 weeks, that's one cycle, 50%, 5-0, they lose half their total body fat, 50% by doing this back and forth. No, no, no. By just doing one, one single 6-week protocol, 50%. Total body fat, up to 75% visceral fat. And that's the secret.

That's amazing.

That's the trick. So you asked me, first off, can you only lose fat doing, doing strategic fasting? The answer is absolutely yes.

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Sure.

And then I go from 8:00 on Sunday to even 8:30 on Monday. Will that be okay?

If you want those results that I'm describing, do it once a week. Extremely structured, way more structured than that.

You just said I could have coffee, I could have Magic Mind.

What else? But it's all what you do going into the fast, during the fast, and exiting.

Okay, okay, okay. So what is the strategy that we should do? I know, I'm sure. Listen, I'm not at all surprised.

This is a shameless plug, true story. We are wrapping up development of an entirely freestanding fasting module based on our entire experience, clinical experience, myself and one of my partners. So we're building out a standalone full-on, full-on educational module that will support clients through the entire fasting journey down to— I mean, it's literally down to the minute, because what happens What I'm talking about, would you get results from doing what you just said? Yes, you would. I think they'd be somewhat unpredictable. I don't know what we would do with it, but I can tell you the key is looking at every week. There's a 3-day period that we got to lock in. The other 4 days, I need you training standard max intensity like we've talked. Eat whatever you want. I don't care what calories, carbs. I mean, fuel with a purpose. Consume calories to maintain output. But for 3 days every week for a 6-week period, you have a pre-fast, fast, and post-fast day.

Tell me what it is.

Pre-fast, very pure and simple: rapidly deplete glycogen. At the end of the day, pre-fast is about dropping your insulin as low as you can get while still consuming food. That's the prep, right? What I said was, if we've got insulin in the bloodstream, forget about it, don't bother.

So how do we get rid of it?

So ideal is your morning AM to midday, you need to get your, uh, major lift. So your heaviest lift of the week comes on your prefast day. That's how we structure it. So if you told me, hey, every Wednesday I do legs cardio metabolic, that's usually what it is. It's a lower extremity or whole body. It's a big lift because lifting is what consumes massive amounts of glycogen. So heavy resistance, progressive overload. Big movements, 45 minutes to an hour before 2:00 PM on your prefast day.

Okay.

Earlier is better. Following your training session, that's the only time where I'm laser on zero carb. You cannot have any carbs after your training session. Okay. So you can eat up till 6:00 PM, fat and protein only. At 6:00 PM, we cut off all food. Okay. Now here's the secret sauce. After that last meal of the day, you have to move. Movement is medicine. Yes. Movement around meals is the, is the true game changer. So we have that 6:00 PM meal, 60, 75-minute brisk walk. That's all you need.

How long?

60 to 75 minutes. So for me, that's when I return my emails. It's when I, um, do all my dosing and prescriptions. I just sit and walk. I walk on a, um, walking pad. Super easy.

For an hour after dinner.

Yes. And if you folks, you want to know if you changed 3 things today to radically transform your body, that's all you're going to change.

Okay.

Movement is medicine, 100%. Anchor everything in protein. Protein's the non-negotiable and eliminate added sugar. I don't care what else you do. I do not care about your calorie consumption because if you're eating whole foods, you just can't consume the absurdity of people that, oh, I'm, I'm, oh, you know, I, I, I ate 10,000 calories. No, you didn't. I mean, do you know how hard it is if you're eating whole food? Now, if you're drinking milkshakes, of course, but eliminate the added sugar. Okay. That's a non-negotiable. Everything anchors in protein, your day and your meals, protein first. Okay. And then the last piece is move around meals. It is a game changer. If we talk about insulin resistance and how to augment glucose curves, because that is the key driver, glucose stimulates insulin. Secretion, period, done. Do other things do it too? Yes, absolutely. But the workhorse is glucose. So if you can moderate your glucose excursions, how high, how long, and how often, you will indeed be healthier metabolically. That's just real life. No one's— there's no debating it. And yet people get on these crazy train things like, oh, you know, you're saying no carbs.

No, I'm not. I'm saying know what's happening in your body and use it to your advantage.

Brisk walking.

Yep.

After every meal.

Yes.

Okay.

And if you could only do it once in a day— yeah, do it after your last meal of the day.

Yeah, of course.

Well, but we looked at it— this was— no, no, this goes back to Lumen. We were talking about Lumen when Lumen was initially founded, and they were looking at their early data. The one single The best predictor of entering fat burn mode while you were sleeping was movement after the last meal of the day. Why? Because it's, it's such an incredibly powerful tool. Muscle is not a metabolic engine. Have you used that term? Like burns more calories, more muscle does burn.

I do use that.

Okay. That's true. So I used to say it's a metabolic engine, but we need to reframe that conversation much higher level muscle. Is a glucose management system. Let muscle decide how glucose is utilized. Muscle cells can store glucose and they can use it as a fuel. I'm not smarter than your body, but if you move after a meal, you create channels, openings in your muscle, real-time actively, and the glucose pours into that without an insulin response. So in effect, what you're doing by moving after your last meal of the day is you're normalizing your insulin levels.

An hour to 75 minutes is a lot.

It is. I get that.

That's a lot. I get it. Okay, people have to go to work the next day, kids, whatever it is. Can 30 minutes—

you heard of a family walk or—

yeah, no, sorry, explain that to me.

My little, my little girl, she— I would always take my son on a walk, and if she gets left out, she goes berserk.

Yeah, I'm sure she is.

She will come flying out of the house screaming, like bawling.

Really?

You tried to leave me. Anyway, uh, you could do a family. Yeah, I agree.

I'm just saying, can you do 30 minutes?

Totally, totally. Here's where I would, uh, kind of push back a little bit. Again, if you want those results that I'm describing— pure fat loss, high-grade, short period of time— that pre-fast, post-meal walk needs to be 60, 75 minutes. So like I'm saying, so I'm talking about what you do on 2 days in your entire week.

Okay, that's fair.

That's manageable.

That's bad, right? Okay.

Yeah, but I agree with you that in every night, 60, 70— yeah, probably not practical.

Let me ask you a question. Maybe— are you on testosterone though?

I do take testosterone. Okay.

Yeah, see, because—

and you know the reason I don't— so I— yeah, I don't have—

no, I'm just saying, because you're super fit. How old are you? 46, 47, 48?

Almost 48.

Yeah, 48.

Okay, 48 in a couple weeks.

And you're ripped. I went through your Instagram before you got here. Listen, smoke and— I don't know. I don't know if you can fake that.

It's all AI.

It is. You're doing AI. But I'm saying, look, so you're telling me, were you naturally this way?

No.

Genetically?

No, no, not at all. You got to— oh my gosh. I mean, my freshman season in college.

That's okay. No, no, no, no, no, no. You can't say that because everyone gains weight in college.

But no, no. Well, I was going to say I came into college weighing £145.

Oh, so you were skinny? I was like, okay, that's a good—

tough. And I would fall over.

Okay, but that's when you're thin genetically, it's much easier to build muscle. You weren't a fat kid, basically.

No, no, that's— I guess that's true.

Yeah, you were not a fat kid.

No, no.

Okay, but because you are, you're ripped for— not to say, like, listen, people always think that I'm AI or that I'm on like GH, like HGH, you know what I mean? Yeah, no, but no, but seriously, there's no way you're 40, whatever. But so you are on testosterone though?

Yeah. So I've been— I mean, so I— and I can share all my labs with you. There's—

there's no secret. I don't— it's not my— it's not my—

no, no. But I think it's an important distinction. This is why.

Because were you low T?

I was actually. So I was. And I have been— went through a couple life— big life experiences. And as a result, I mean, my testosterone, among other things, really suffered.

So I'd have to go back and look because I always wonder what happened that you're— that what would happen.

Well, where it really went sideways is we, we lost our first daughter. Um, she, she passed away at, uh, at birth, and, um, or she's stillborn is how you say it. And, um, I'm so sorry. So believe it or not, actually, to your point, it was actually a a pivotal, pivotal time in, in our lives, not in a good way. I, uh, so this comes to like food addiction, right? I, I never, I'd never thought anything of it. And, you know, that was an event in my life that would just like, just totally out of left field because like I deal in a world as a surgeon, like calculated risk, you know, but it's controlled. You know what can happen when, and you somehow you process that. But with child loss, it was out of left field. It was like, I— this is how crazy it was. I mean, obviously I went to medical school and I didn't ever realize this could happen. I don't think I did. So, so it was just so far-fetched that I was not at all prepared. And so I like did a nosedive into really deep depression. And in my therapy, you know, some people drink, I eat.

And, uh, I— true story— I was going through like a Costco bag of Sour Patch Kids a day, like just fists. And I was near diabetic when, when, like, when the dust kind of started to settle a little bit. We lost our daughter in August, August 29th, and You know, like the first 3, 4 months was just so dark, so dark, you know? And I gained £50, give or take. My hemoglobin A1C was 6.4%. So like actually ate myself into diabetes. 6.5% is the definition of diabetes. So basically right there. And so much of this conversation, my practice that we own now and we opened for me is One, it's a mechanism to honor my daughter because like before that time I was, I think it was very self-deprecating, very self-critical, but I was also critical of other people. I didn't have a lot of empathy. And I'm going to say this and just be real, you know, someone is obese, oh, they're lazy, you know, so just these snap judgments, right? You don't know what someone's life experience is. You have no idea what's driving you. They may be radically different I was radically different in 6 months' time.

I mean, I just straight nosedive. So in that sense, I'm beyond grateful. It's a horrible experience, but like it taught me a lot about humility, about empathy. And now that's why I feel like I can connect more with people. Yeah, I deal with high performers, but that doesn't mean I don't deal with obesity and heart disease and everything else under the sun. But that reset for me. It was really the origins of the Longevity Lab today because I went through that and I'm looking around and I, it literally, it was like vivid for me. Wake up one day, just look in the mirror and go, what?

Mm-hmm.

What just happened? Like, I can't account for the last 6 months of my life. And so I pick up the phone, start calling my colleagues, right? Help, help me out. Okay. And so that this is, comes back to your testosterone question. I mean, my testosterone was like 200. It was just Everything just bottomed out. I was just a walking cortisol bomb.

And it's also because of your lifestyle, though. Yes, totally. It wasn't because of like your— like, if you went— if you just went back to like eating better and exercising.

I don't disagree with that, right? I don't disagree. But I want to comment on that because I want to be fair to the conversation. But in that time, I was like rock, rock, rock bottom. And I swear to you, I looked in the mirror and I couldn't account for 6 months. The saving grace for my life between my wife, between God, and then my son. My son was 2 years old, and he is my— like, I can't even talk about it. Um, he's just my, like, my little rock, you know? And so, like, uh, you know, you have to get up every day because it's like, this little guy needs you. He still needs me. So anyway, long story short, got very unhealthy. And then I started reaching out to my, my colleagues and stuff, like, hey, can you help me? What do you recommend? And all stuff. It was like a black hole, you know? And I didn't know anything about social media, probably for the best. But the Longevity Lab was born out of my own personal journey to just figure this out. I got to figure this out. How do I get back on the horse and like get back in the game?

And how long ago was this?

So this was 2019 into 2020. So it was 6 years ago. Yeah, yeah. And you have two other—

you have another daughter?

Yeah, a daughter. My, my Oh man, how old is the daughter? She's 5.

5.

She's 5. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, we just— it will— we'll celebrate, um, my, my daughter Emmeline's, her 7th birthday, which is just mind-blowing, right? It's like life keeps going. Wow. This is all an aside, but it was really the impetus to try and figure this out. And then I can't really do anything halfway, so I started really geeking out on it. But as it related to my testosterone, Totally agree that, you know, I have some radical lifestyle changes. I get on track with diet and nutrition. But the truth of the matter is, which I would say to any one of my clients, then I would argue this: the number one cause of hypogonadal hypogonadism, low testosterone in men today, is metabolic dysfunction. If you look at the impact of hyperinsulinemia, high insulin levels on testosterone production, insulin actually prevents testosterone production. It's inhibitory.

But why are all these young men on it? Like, I'm, I'm hearing like 30, 33, 34, 35-year-old guys are like taking it, right?

Well, so, so here's how—

I mean, you just look really fit, that's why I thought so.

So of course I have to be.

Yeah, well, no, no, no, no, no, I didn't mean— I was just teasing you.

No, I know, no, I know. But, but that's the other thing though, is, is all these, these stories and narratives— people just need to be more educated on what is real and what is not. And social media creates all these, all these things, bizarre worlds where— is testosterone going to like make you really fit?

No, no. Well, it could also make you really fat.

It can do a lot of things, and it can drive you off the rails, and you can go bald. But testosterone, when used appropriately, when used as a tool, a physiologic tool, which is where I maintain my levels— I mean, maintain my levels.

What number do you have now?

My most recent was like 325, which was way lower than I wanted to see.

That's not very high.

No, correct.

Very low. Correct.

That's right. So I need to kind of boost it up again. Yeah, well, but I, but I think— no, no, but it's a really important point because there is physiologic testosterone, no different than replacing a woman's estrogen.

Does— so if a man has a libido of 300, do they typically—

testosterone?

Yeah, I was going to say that testosterone is there. Does that— sorry. So if a man has a test— if their testosterone is below a certain point, does that affect their libido? Is what I want to ask.

Of course.

So what level does a man have to be at?

Let's say— let's ask a different question. At what level does a man's health become compromised? Actually, the risk of a heart attack go up. Actually, the risk of death. So we used to think of— everybody has in their mind testosterone. Oh, it's a bodybuilder thing. Oh, it's just to get jacked and all stuff. No, actually, low testosterone is a health hazard. Much different conversation than we've had in the past. Serum testosterone, total testosterone less than 250, portends a higher risk of heart attack, upwards of a 30% increase in risk. So it's a health risk. So this idea where we have to get out of this, you know, kind of dated, antiquated mindset— oh, that's the bro science, oh, right, you're on roids, you're on— okay, there are synthetic anabolic steroids Okay, we can list them off and it's crazy that social media, it's a free-for-all now. You know who's getting hurt, by the way, are the 16-year-old boys, the 18-year-old boys that are seeing a grown man saying, hey, I got jacked, and they're listing off these absurd anabolic protocols.

Well, you know that kid, the lookmaxing guy? Yeah.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

So he's a 20-year-old kid and he's been taking testosterone, I think, for 5 years. I mean, but that's what's— that's what's influencing all these young kids.

Sure.

Yeah, I know, right?

I know, because I think— I thought you were going to say— I, I think it was a Canadian bodybuilder. Some, some young guy recently, uh, died, like early 20s. There was this very popular bodybuilder on social media, but young guy had— I believe he had cardiac complications.

Really?

Oh, it's, it's a real thing. But we got to separate—

okay, yes.

So wait, physiologic testosterone—

well, because the whole thing is, it's funny, if you go to a regular doctor and they take your blood they take your biomarkers, right? And they'll say, oh, you're normal. Yeah, right.

What does that mean?

But like, you're— when I'm— yeah, what does that mean, right? So in your world, because you're so dialed in, what do you think as— what do you think is a healthy place for a man to be tested with their testosterone?

Yeah.

And with their— with the woman is much different. Yeah.

Yeah. So the important thing to know is that it's— I think this comes since— but it's free testosterone. So everybody talks about total testosterone, which is pretty much irrelevant. Free testosterone, just with any hormone, hormones get bound to proteins. If they're— if, think of if my hormone's stuck to, uh, um, a Velcro ball, for example, it can't go and attach to the receptor. So total testosterone is not that important, but free testosterone, the, a part that's available. For a male, my bias in my practice would be a free testosterone of 15 to 20. That, if you look at lab normals, is going to be high normal. Okay, now for a man who— again, if I'm focusing on a muscle growth phase, you say 15, 20? 15 to 20.

Okay. And for a woman?

For a woman, anywhere from 2 to 5. It's very— and it can be higher. I have a couple female clients beautiful, feminine, rocking life who have free testosterone above 5. They— and I mean, some would say like that those same levels would be what we call virilizing levels. So people transitioning.

Oh, really?

They— yeah, but, but that's why the numbers— this is the problem with the numbers, is numbers only apply to a cross-section of the population. It's an average. Right? So there's going to be highs and lows, but those aren't defined by performance output, which is the thing I look at. So libido, mental clarity, decisiveness, mood, immune health, muscle health, all these components that testosterone directly contributes to.

So then, okay, so then why are all these young guys taking it? Why is all like 30-year-old— I mean, 20-year-olds are on testosterone.

Well, I think we know why some of that. Yes.

Right.

Is because it— yes. Super physiological levels.

But if you're 350, is your libido totally tanked?

Not great.

Really?

Not great.

Yeah. No, I'm just asking. Seriously.

I mean, I wouldn't say— I don't know about tanked. And by the way, hormone health is a lot more nuanced than we—

Oh, I know.

Of course. It's not 3 hormones, but it's precursors, it's post products. It's a lot to it. But I would say that I mean, for a male, testosterone is the key driver of cognition on down. So libido, yeah, that's part of the equation, but it's not really a major part in my mind. If you came to me and said, I want testosterone for my libido—

no, no, no, I know—

I would say, well, let's push, push pause here. Let's talk about why are young men— there's two camps, okay? There are more and more young men who are— have low testosterone by laboratory analysis. So that's one group. Those people, I'll explain why in my strong argument, they need treated. And there is a threshold to say all the diet, exercise, it's realistically, it's— you're not going to get there in a meaningful amount of time. And so you're basically climbing Mount Everest butt naked. Okay. Then there's another camp, which is the kind of the performance camp where people have gone off the rails and it's all driven by social media that we've actually normalized the conversation around anabolic steroids. Oh yeah, just do you, you know? Oh, you wanna get jacked like me? I saw this guy, he's literally word for word. I keep trying to think of his username. He, he says, if you're a man over 40, then you wanna look like me. He, you similar physique, you have to take, and then he lists off 5 anabolic steroids and the game hasn't changed.

What did he make? What did he say?

Tren, mass. I mean, he's literally— I mean, it is a crazy cycle. And his message is, if you're a man over 40, you can't get like this without these. That's scary.

That's super scary. And it's so not true.

It's completely untrue. Right. But imagine who gets hit with that more. Is it the other 40-year-old male that buys his BS? No, it's the 18-year-old kid that goes, I kind of like to look like that now, right? And now all of a sudden you're hearing from an adult and there's no discussion. He said, you know, I want to be transparent about how I got this way. So he listed off this whole stack, right? And I wrote a comment. I said, well, if you were being transparent, I'd like you to share your labs with us. I'd like to see how effed up your liver is. I'd like to do an echocardiogram and show how dilated your left ventricle, how thickened and dilated it is. I'd like to look at your coronary arteries and see how much plaque you've built up, because that's real. Okay. We, we, we, we've known that for 50s, you know, origins of anabolics. So, so 70 years, this isn't new information. No, of course not. Why does that matter? Uh, well, because you're framing this as there's no downside, only upside.

Is it true that once you start taking it as an injection though, your body stops producing it on its own?

No, it's all relative. And so this is the most important— categorically the most important part of the discussion, I believe, needs to center around the people that do actually, I would argue, need testosterone. The 32-year-old executive who's been grinding for the family business for the last 15 years— and yes, I'm talking about a client of mine who is 32, you said? 32. Okay, so he's been going hard for the family business. He's an executive level, very, you know, very well off financially, very successful. And he's also put on roughly £80 of fat mass pure fat. Okay. He comes and sees me. His, his total fat mass was £79. Okay. And his testosterone's 280. Here's the thing. Okay. I don't disagree that the most detrimental mechanisms for his health related to his testosterone are visceral fat and hyperinsulinemia, insulin in the bloodstream. But here's the thing. I totally agree that eliminating those two will allow his testicles to start functioning normally again. The problem is, how are you going to eliminate these two when you've got a testosterone less than 300? You get winded if you go to the gym for 10, 15 minutes.

You're at such a severe disadvantage. So the causal relationship between metabolic disease and low testosterone has to be acknowledged, but the mechanism of reversal, it's not snapping a finger. Obviously he didn't get there in one day, he's not going to get out of it, but I use the analogy, I mean, Dumb and Dumber, right? Are you going to freaking summit Mount Everest butt naked without a Sherpa? Is it possible you could do it? Sure. There's a chance. One in a trillion, one in a— so having someone who's so severely disadvantaged physiologically to do the one thing that will actually impact positively on his long-term health, which is build muscle, to me, that's insane. And I see this all the time. Young men— I, I go up to people at the gym all the time. I see guys, you see guys that, that are working their butt off. You see plenty of guys that aren't, but there are guys I see all the time working their butt, pouring sweat. They're obese, they are struggling, they are putting in the work. And I look at that person, I go, that is— I'm not saying it's right or wrong how they got to that point, but there's no way you're getting out of that, is it?

I agree.

I— do you see what I mean? And so in that case, whether you're 28 or 50 or 90, I don't care. At that point, yes, you have to do a biomarker analysis, not how you feel. But once you test, if that guy's free testosterone is 3, 4, 5, okay, there's literally— he does not have the signal to support muscle growth. So it is going to feel impossible because physiologically he's so disadvantaged. But here's the cool thing. This is what people miss. I meet with that guy and I tell him point blank, yeah, we need to introduce an outside source of testosterone. Your body's not doing it. But I fully anticipate as we shift your body composition to a much more improved physiologic effect, so rapidly or markedly decrease insulin, get rid of the visceral fat, your testicles are gonna kick back in and we're gonna be able to come back down on that testosterone. And so this gets to the question, am I on it for life? Absolutely not. No, it's part of a strategy. It's part of a bigger picture. It's a protocol. It's, it's how we deliver care to optimize the individual. Okay.

Does that make sense? So it's not a— this is the misguided, you know, once you're on it, you're— yeah, for that 25-year-old doing mass, tren, D-Ball, testosterone, all day. I mean, he's frying his testicles.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying.

Totally different. Scenario.

Is there a biomarker that doctors are not looking at that is very important to kind of tell you your overall health?

Fasting insulin, not hemoglobin A1C. Free— I mean, look at, look at broad-based hormone. For a male, it would be free testosterone above all else, because I see so many guys that get a total testosterone level and doesn't matter. It actually doesn't matter. It's a free testosterone.

Okay.

I think looking at biomarkers for genetic risk of heart attack, the one that has been missing for years is lipoprotein little a, LP little a, apolipoprotein B. You have to be considerate of cholesterol's role in cardiovascular disease. Notice I say role. Okay. So those tests are the ones that I think get left off. You know, I see guys, LP little a is, is a largely genetically conferred risk for heart disease. Higher levels can translate to 3 to 5 times higher risk of a heart attack. This is the guy that's your golfing buddy that you play tennis with every weekend and drops dead in the grocery store. Okay. So they— every, every doctor checks a lipid panel. That's standard.

Yeah. So what did you say it was?

A lipoprotein little a.

And why did you say? Because you're right. Because I know a lot of these guys who look super fit, they play tennis, you know, every day and they're dropping dead, dropping dead at 40.

My lipoprotein little a, okay, is 280, off the charts. My Apolipoprotein B, my— the strongest predictor that we have of what we sort of clot-forming capacity, my Apolipoprotein B is 55. Very. So I have a genetic abnormality, if you will, that increases my lifetime risk of a heart attack markedly. So What does that mean? Well, the cool thing is in the next year or two, Big Pharma is actually coming out with a monoclonal to actually treat, to actually eliminate this risk. But it's the risk. Like, I could run 10 miles a day, I could do all this stuff, and I'm still carrying a risk, a genetic risk for heart disease. Okay. So that, that's why these data points become imperative. And sadly, in the United States, that is not at, not anywhere close to standard of care.

So what do you do for it? That if, if there's no medication for it now, what are you doing to make it better?

Well, there, there are medications that can augment, and I'm considering— I'm not doing anything right now.

You're just watching it?

Yes.

What if you drop dead of a heart attack?

Well, so there's— this is the difference, okay? So what we call genotype phenotype. So I have a genetic risk, we know that's circulating in my bloodstream, but I also get a dynamic study of my heart called a Cleerly AI scan that was totally clean. So the issue is, okay, I know there's a risk, but now we got to see, is that risk translating to a physical problem? So I don't have any plaque right now.

So, uh, I got you.

For me, it's, it's a hard argument to say, oh, I should just, uh, take medications. To me, I see that as unnecessary. That's me speaking as a physician. So with, with my client base, we do an entire workup, right? So biomarker analysis is one piece of the puzzle, right? But someone who has an elevated risk, well, we still have to ask the question, has it actually translated to disease?

Right.

Okay.

So you got to be very careful.

And so this gets to, by the way, this comes back to the conversations around testosterone, superphysiologic testosterone. Absolutely. Worsens the lipid, lipid profile. Right.

So if you have really low testosterone, that will just increase the risk more.

Well, it's the bookends. So we know observationally that low testosterone results in a higher risk. Okay. Well, I shouldn't say it results. I want to be careful. We don't know that it causes, but we see the correlation. Low testosterone, higher risk of heart attacks. We've made that observation. Okay. With as it relates to high testosterone. So now again, this is the issue with bodybuilders. They're taking, I would argue, like 6, 7 times what a physiologic dose would be. Point blank, I take 60 milligrams of testosterone. Okay. It's like tiny, tiny, tiny little bit. Bodybuilders are talking about taking 600 to 700 milligrams. Insane. Okay. But at really high levels of testosterone, you see your lipid— because it's affected— affecting the liver, you see your lipid panel go off, totally off the rails.

Okay.

So you have the— you have the observation that low testosterone people have higher heart attacks. But then I know for a fact if we— if we crank your testosterone, it will negatively impact your lipid panel. So there is a spectrum, which is why I say all the time, you know, your friendly fitness influencer, they don't, they don't quite get the nuance, right? And yet they're telling— the craziest thing about Instagram is you have non-medical providers giving medical advice and they have no liability.

No, no liability. That's exactly the problem.

I mean, I see doctors getting pursued for various reasons, various claims, like you alluded to, the guys outselling peptides.

Yes.

And but if you're a fitness influencer, you can actually tell someone, no, you should take 250mg of testosterone. That's not medical advice. That's prescriptive authority.

100%.

Well, and then what are you going to do? So say you follow that advice, you take it and you have some complication, right? Who's to blame?

Nobody. You are.

Well, no, because you're the idiot that followed.

Well, besides myself, right? Sue them.

Right, exactly. And what's the first thing they're going to say? They're going to laugh. They go, why did you take my advice? I'm not a doctor.

I'm not a doctor. Exactly. And then, and then you're like kind of fucked after that point.

Okay. Oh yeah, there's a lot of that.

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Go to prolonlife.com/jennifercohen and use Jennifer Cohen to claim your discount and bonus. That's prolonlife.com/jennifercohen. /jennifercohen and use code Jennifer Cohen. I have to ask you a couple more questions that we're going to do part 2.

I'm down.

I'm down. Are you okay?

These are all— no, you know, the whole reason I came out here is because this is the coolest thing about social media, to meet real people.

Yeah.

I thought social media was just pure smoke and mirrors, and there's a lot, but then you meet very legitimate people and people who have a voice and connection with other people. It's wild.

Yeah.

So like, it— my impetus to come out here is that this isn't like a medical or science podcast. This is like people just living their lives out there that are getting flooded with garbage noise.

I'm so glad that you came here. No.

So that's why I like— I'd love to do it because this is where— this is the whole reason I got onto social media was it's not to go back and forth with other doctors, but, but try to like try to bring just a little sanity.

And you're bringing a lot of rational thought to the conversation. Good. Because I have got a cool— but it is real. You're, you're, you're excellent. I'm so glad that we, that we got connected or I connected to you. Yeah. Okay. Wait, we got it. There's so many things. So I'm going to try to like just kind of keep it to the things I really wanted you to talk about. The first one is grip strength, right? There's— right. I need you. I need to talk about this because— is— yes, you told me it's a myth that grip strength actually predicts your longevity.

No, I didn't say that.

That's what you said.

How dare you?

No, I said different.

No, no, no, no, no.

They say it wrong.

Well, let's— let me explain it this way. It's an absurd metric. It is irrelevant to— so how's that wrong? The human—

okay, so let me say it again.

It's not a myth because it's actually a scientifically measured fact. It is a metric that has been used to correlate.

Okay, let me re-say it then. Okay, so the scientific metric of checking somebody's grip strength is not an accurate way of checking somebody's longevity.

No, it's not a worthwhile metric to trend. What's happened is the great Peter Attia, the great neurodivergent Peter Attia, who latches on to these, these numbers and then just, just takes it to another level with his marketing team. Grip strength is a surrogate marker. It is a one way to measure strength, but what you're measuring in grip strength is you're trying to reverse engineer whole body strength. So I have people coming to me saying, well, what's the best way to measure my grip strength? Carry your kids in your arms. I don't know. Do something practical. Grip strength is not gonna prevent you from falling off a toilet and dying. The data is very clear. The mortality, the, the, the number of adults over the age of 65 who die within 1 year of a pelvic or proximal, uh, long bone fracture. Is a third. What is that saying? So if you fall and break your hip, one-third of those people will be dead within one year. They go to a nursing home, they get pneumonia, they die. Okay. Why is that happening? It's because it's a reflection. Why did you fall is the question. You're unbalanced, you're uncoordinated, and you're weak.

So when you do indeed compare grip strength to proximal lower extremity muscle strength, proximal lower extremities win every time, right? You don't— I don't care, you could have forearms the size of my torso and it's not going to prevent you from falling, but weak quads will. So we need to be looking— so, so my, my— the trainer I swear by, a guy named Jeff Schudi, is brilliant. We've been working on a functional Performance Longevity Score. One of the workhorse exercises that we use is a walking kettlebell farmer carry lunge. Now that, so simply put, walking lunge, 50 meters. Okay. Unbroken. So it's, it's a full step each time. Okay. 2 kettlebells. So effectively that's your grip strength metric. Yeah. I'll, I'll give, pay homage to grip strength. But what you're measuring, think about what you're measuring there. You're measuring first and foremost lower extremity strength, but you're also measuring balance, coordination, and mobility. Those are what'll have you falling off a toilet, and then a third of your peers are gonna be dead. So we have to reframe. We have gotten so off the rails, and this is a, a reasonable criticism of longevity medicine is you guys are just pulling stuff Can I say this?

Out of your ass. You're pulling, plucking data points. This was the Attia legend. If you saw the 60 Minutes special, he literally has a lady hanging from a bar. You really think that's going to prevent her falling off a toilet? It's moronic. It's truly moronic. What matters?

So let's—

so we lose logic. We discard logic for these cool numbers, but I need to have everything framed in the form of what is actually going to move the needle for somebody. And by far and away, if you were going to do one activity in your lifetime to extend your healthspan and lifespan, it would be sit-to-stand movements. Does that make sense? So like my grandfather who passed away weeks before his 103rd birthday, his deficiency ultimately came to being able to go from a sitting to standing position. That's why he wound up in a nursing home. He lived 102 years on his own and his muscles weakened. So if we prevent that from happening, you are actually by definition improving longevity.

So doing a walking kettlebell lunge is the best exercise.

So then, so, so yes. So our scoring system is based on the percent of your body weight that you can do. So we consider elite would be 1% is 110% of your body weight. You try doing that with kettlebell lunge.

It's hard to do. You know what, like, for whatever reason, it's so good, isn't it? Yes. And those— even a walking lunge in itself is very difficult. Exactly. So my point is, it's such a great point. It's— I love that.

It's the criticism or critique around longevity medicine is people are just obsessing over numbers. And that's a fair critique. If you want to talk about Grip strength, a dead hang. Do you know what single community that I'm aware of that actually tests dead hangs? It's the United States Marine Corps. Want to know why? It's because you could actually fall out of a helicopter and your life would depend on hanging.

Yes. Okay.

A 60-year-old woman, your life doesn't hinge. And the miss is that now people have gotten in their head, oh, I'm going to get bigger forearms, I'm going to hang. No, it's a proxy for whole body strength, but we know very plainly proximal lower extremities, so glutes, hamstrings, quads, that complex is survivability.

Yeah, I agree.

Because think about it, if you really had a bizarre scenario where someone's upper torso, chest, and upper extremities were relatively weak and they had a really strong core lower extremity group, I would say that person's probably better off.

No, I think that's a great point. You know, and, and it's also common sense.

That's, that's my point is this is the critique against longevity medicine is what happens when common sense goes out the door.

Well, what I, what my grandmother would always say is common sense isn't very common, right?

What happens when common sense isn't so common? Peter Attia becomes an, a longevity medicine expert. And so that's the criticism that I take every day. They're like, oh, well you just made this name up. You just made this title. No, I poured myself into my craft. And what I've done different than anybody else I'm aware of is it's all evidence-based, data-driven, results-defined. I actually keep the data and make decisions based off of it. It's not like hocus pocus. Oh, well, you're probably gonna feel better. Oh, let's get some biomarkers once in a while. No, it's very data-directed. Just like going back to the fast, continuous glucose, continuous ketone. That's the differential. That's the differentiating factor. Now, again, coming back to the women's health question, now we're going to have continuous estradiol. We're going to answer questions that have not been answered in the history of the world because I don't know what does— what happens with your estrogen minute to minute through your entire cycle. Truly, no one knows. That scientific evidence does not exist today. We're dealing with just throwing darts. Plots on a line, knowing full well that a woman's hormones change through a 28-day cycle for years, decades of their life.

So that data combined with ketone data in fasting. Yeah, I think in the next year I'm going to be able to be talking on a level that's radically different than what we are today. But my gut sense, my— as a professional, I just, my gut sense, having treated so many women, it's not gonna really change the game because no different than a male who may be stressed from like a viral illness, they're not gonna enter ketosis. So maybe for some women in the luteal phase, they may not enter ketosis, but it's easy. You have a, a failsafe.

Okay.

If at 12 hours of someone's fast, this is how we do it. If by noon on the fasting day you're still in a low-grade nutritional ketosis level for whatever reason, we stop. What's the point? Mm-hmm.

Exactly.

You see what I'm saying?

I do.

I see what you're saying. But now when you have the data, you're making informed decisions.

Yes.

It's not like, oh, I don't feel well, or, oh, I feel dizzy. I don't— that's not— I'm sorry you feel dizzy, but what's your glucose and what's your ketones?

Right.

So anyway, I digress.

No, you're not digressing. I just know that Ed's going to kill me because it's Saturday and we're We're almost— just talk, everybody. We're almost at 3 hours and I've got so many more questions for you.

Okay, but I'm glad you asked the grip string question, 'cause that is precisely the issue. It is literally common sense left the building. Yes.

Or I guess—

and you literally have a, you know, world-known 60 Minutes news anchor hanging from a bar and no one looks at that and goes, this is stupid.

No, no, I know, I know. Listen, you, you're preaching to the converted, my dear. Is there any other mythbuster that you can tell us right now that drives you crazy? Hmm.

It's a good question.

Hmm. There's so many, I'm sure.

I know, I know. Gosh, it's a myth. Mythbusters. Hmm. I would say the reverse mythbuster for the conversation we've had around peptides is there are indeed peptides that are tried and true, proven, and ultra high effect.

Okay. Tell me which ones.

I would say the best studied class of peptides are the GHRH. Or growth hormone, we'll call 'em just the growth hormone peptides, somorlin, ipamorlin, tesamorlin. We understand the role of growth hormone in human longevity. Okay. We can trigger a natural increase in production and letdown very reliably using these peptides. Those are peptides, but guess what the common thread is? Tesamorlin exists as a pharmaceutical agent. It went through the entire FDA clearance process. There tends to be a connection. And so this is where, uh, uh, Tessa Morellin's a workhorse. MOTC, that goes back to your original question. There is actually no evidence, and I've looked at MOTC strategically at high doses because for me to say there's some positive benefit, it has to follow a logical train of thought. And if you're talking about mitochondrial optimizing peptide, Motsi, you would expect one of two, if not two things to happen. One, fuel utilization increases. You can test that. It's called resting metabolic rate. So I looked at myself, I did the study on myself. I did every week, I did an indirect calorimetry. So a breath breathing test mask on my face, checked my RMR, didn't change, did not change.

So could there be something happening on a small scale? And it, yeah, but if it's not having a meaningful impact on the human, Why are you taking it?

But what about the difference between tesamoralin and semoralin?

Yeah, huge. Massive.

What's the difference?

Potency. Efficacy.

Okay.

So semoralin, in my clinical experience, has little to no effect on serum IGF-1 levels. IGF-1. Oh, this is— this is a really important thing to say. If you can't measure or quantify something, it's real hard to prove that something is or isn't working. Okay, so if you want to sell a product, pick something that can't be measured because who's going to tell you it didn't work?

Yes.

Brilliant, right? Yeah, that's the fundamental issue. But look at all the peptides, okay, that are on the market that do indeed work, that have been brought to market by Big Pharma. The common thread is you can measure a difference. There is an organism-level effect.

So tesa-morlin and semorlin, you can measure.

Well, yes. So all those— so the way we measure, typically measure growth hormone levels is in the form of IGF-1, which is a byproduct. So this is downstream effect. It's much more stable in the bloodstream.

Okay. So is tesamorilin—

so I test your IGF-1 today. I put you on a test, some tesamorilin protocol. In 6 weeks, I test it again. I expect it to be 100 to 150% higher. So I can prove we went from here to here. Now we can get into tesamorilin. Somorilan, nominal effect. Okay, so then why is it worthless?

Okay, but you actually— didn't you just say the—

I said that's like the category, but within that category, Somorilan, which is the one that's being used a lot because the FDA didn't pull it from compoundings. Oh, so everybody went to Somorilan. Somorilan is not worth— not worth the bottle it comes in.

So Tesamorelin is good.

Tesamorelin, by far and away the most potent.

What is CJC-1295?

So CJC-1295 is often combined with ipamorelin. Ipamorelin is a ghrelin agonist and CJC is a GHRH agonist. So it's, it's just, it's biological pathways. But CJC with ipamorelin, that combo is very effective. It is very effective.

Can you take that with tesamorelin or either or?

You can take— well, you could take whatever you want. If I was going to suggest someone do something, I have observed the greatest benefits with tesamorelin and ipamorelin combined without the other part.

Correct.

Right. Because CJC and tesamorelin are the same mechanism. It's just tesamorelin's more potent.

Can you get bloated from this?

Okay, so growth hormone. Let's talk about growth hormone because again, this is where people go off the rails and they're like, well, one helps with sleep. What? No, they don't. They just increase growth hormone. Growth hormone helps with sleep. But yes, growth hormone as a large molecule, does result in some water retention. Everybody sees it.

For how long?

I, I've always experienced it as transient. Again, if you're moderating the dose and managing the actual titrating towards your IGF-1, it should be a matter of a couple of weeks, but it's very nominal. The effect is very nominal and it neutralizes very quickly. So probably someone who's never been exposed to testosterone, which is the most potent, may experience a little, a little added water weight. More times than not, it's not visible. It's just I get a call and they're like, oh, I gained £3. Yeah, you retained a little water, but it goes away. Absolutely.

100%. Okay. Now I got to ask you about NAD+.

Okay. Yeah, let's do it.

Okay. NAD+. What's your, what's your take on NAD+?

So first question, do I use it in my practice? Yes, I do. Injection-based NAD+. So we'll say sub-q, intramuscular, IV, in that order, is one, there is very much a systemic effect. Have you taken NAD?

Yes, I take— and I take TruNigen, which is NR.

Good. So, but have you ever done like an infusion?

I've gotten an NAD infusion, right? I've gotten the NR infusion by TruNigen, which is like— oh, interesting. Have you— did you know they have?

No, no, I didn't.

Oh my God, you should have them at your your— like, you should put them in your longevity labs. Okay. You know why? It's with NR, right? And you know how an NAD drip takes an hour, 2 hours to go in?

Sure.

This one takes like 30 or 40 minutes.

Okay.

So it's like, it, it minimizes the time. Yeah.

So, so NAD, if you've ever done an NAD infusion— yes, you feel it. If you open that thing up—

so nauseous, it's terrible.

It's as close to— as close as you come to having like a heart attack and a respiratory thing. Yeah. If you really open it wide.

Oh, you can't. It's so horrible.

So bear in mind what, what you're feeling systemically is very minimal to intracellular levels. NAD and NAD+ and NADH are— they, they're an electron donor in the mitochondria. So that's inside a cell. Okay. So NAD in your bloodstream is irrelevant. Okay. It has to be in the cell. NAD cannot readily cross through a cell membrane into the cell. There's no clear carrier. So you probably get some ultra small percentage, meaning we have to give you a big slug of NAD+ to get a little bit in your cell. So I think what you are feeling and experiencing is largely the circulatory effects of NAD+, but what matters from a longevity perspective, because NAD+ does two things. Again, it aids in the electron transport chain energy. You know, fuel to energy. And, but the other piece is it's a cofactor in the DNA mismatch repair system, which is literally our bodies. It's wild. So every time a cell splits, you literally do copy your entire DNA to a new cell. So imagine as you age, that process keeps happening, more room for error. But we have a built-in system called the, the DNA mismatch repair system. That NAD is a powerful cofactor that goes through— literally, this is what makes the human body wild— goes through and checks our entire genome before that cell gets the okay.

Really?

Yeah, that's how— so that's where NAD— so that's kind of that longevity energy piece.

So NR—

so then, then we talk about— so that's, that's what NAD does in the cell. Okay. The, the tragedy is in the bloodstream doesn't count. So the— it's actually the precursors that establish the highest level of intracellular concentration. So what you're saying, NR, nicotinamide riboside, there's some mixed data. NR and NMN are the two precursors that are used commonly. Yeah, I'm a bigger advocate for NR. I think there's more compelling data that NR is readily transported into the cell, and there's some data that says NMN is broken down to NR and then enters the cell. Bottom line, they both do in some effect.

But isn't NR faster because you're missing that enzyme?

Well, yes, because you're— correct, correct.

Right. So then why would anyone take NMN?

Well, the better question is why would anyone take NAD?

But yeah, why would anyone take NAD?

So I still use, like I said, I use it in my practice. Why? Because at the doses we're using, there is likely a nominal but more immediate effect on the cell.

But if you're taking it as a supplement, I take niacin as a supplement, right? Is it as effective as taking it as a—

it's more effective over time. But remember, you're building up intracellular levels. So my point is NR should be your threshold. That should be your baseline. I would argue I don't see a ton of reasons why most people are not on NR, except maybe the cost.

Do you take it?

Yeah. Oh yeah. I love TruNigen. I mean, that's, that's the workhorse.

I love that. Yeah. Yeah.

So in fact, they have that new immune formula. Have you seen it?

Yeah, of course.

It gets— it's vitamin C and NR and something else. Yeah.

It's actually less. It's like that, but I take it—

it's a smaller dose.

It's a smaller dose. I take the TruNigen Pro, which is 1,000 milligrams.

Oh, nice.

Okay. Yeah. So that's why.

Yeah. More is more from everything that I understand and have experienced personally. More is better.

So it's not accl— your body doesn't acclimate to it. No.

Again, you're, you're taking a precursor simply because once again, here we go to peptides. You love peptides. Well, no, it's just because you have to understand just biology at, at a baseline.

Because people are, everyone's injecting NADs. Yeah.

But they don't magically, people forget that a cell is airtight, watertight. If there's not a dedicated channel or transport mechanism, just because something's in your bloodstream doesn't put it in the cell.

Okay. Okay. So then you're— yes, I understand.

So NR, NMN, I don't feel strongly between the two. I personally use NR for the basis we just said, but that's a, um, you're building level over time.

Because if it's not—

you don't take NR today and your intracellular levels are peak.

Does it— is it really like the, like, an anti-aging workhorse?

I mean, I see it as that for the express reason what I said as it relates to to DNA health.

Yes.

Because what ages us is the progressive breakdown of DNA. So cells become less and less functional or operational. So I would argue that having this potent cofactor that helps ensure accuracy of DNA reproduction is very much a longevity focus. And what I said earlier is the key though. Remember we said mitochondria, muscle metabolism. Anything that positively impacts on mitochondrial or improves the efficiency by definition is improving muscle metabolism and longevity. So that's the clearest link I have.

Okay. I have a question for you just to be counter devil's advocate a little bit. If it's, if it's turning over yourself, if NAD+ is turning your cells over, it's not. It's not.

No, no, no, no, no. It's— yeah, I'm sorry if I— if it came across. No. It is a critical cofactor in ensuring that when your cells turn over, they duplicate, that the DNA is accurate. Because if you introduce DNA error, that is one of the main theories of a malignant transformation, is that DNA becomes corrupt. Right. And ideally DNA becomes corrupt and something like the mismatch repair system flags it, and that goes on to be a zombie cell.

Exactly. Yes.

But if that cell line propagates, now that error is taken into a cell lineage that is malignant transformation in the right setting.

Okay.

So that's where NAD+ plays a role.

I got you.

Mm-hmm.

What about aminos? So aminos to help maintain lean muscle mass. Yeah. To help with energy. What is your take on those?

Well, so, well, okay, so let's say it this way. I mean, amino acids are the building blocks.

Amino acids. Yeah.

Yeah. The building blocks. So you have to look at, uh, complete, incomplete, and essential forms of amino acids. A complete form of protein arguably contains all 9 essential amino acids.

Yeah. Okay.

So lean protein, like, like chicken. Okay. So your body's breaking that down into all these different— let's keep in, in mind here in this, cuz I think it goes with this conversation, like hydrolyzed collagen peptides. Okay. What's the role of collagen? So collagen is an incomplete protein source, right? It's only made up of 3 amino acids proven actually to be beneficial for skin health and joint health. So if you're taking 22 grams daily of hydrolyzed collagen peptides for those reasons, I'm all for it. Problem is when people factor that into their daily protein intake, it's not the same. Collagen is used explicitly.

I don't count it towards your daily intake, but like some people can't just eat that much protein a day. So is it a good idea to take an amino— like an amino supplement?

I think so. I would say definitely yes. I can't I brought you a bunch. I'm personally not— what's that?

I brought you a bunch. I take these Kion aminos that are very good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but that's an essential. So that's an essential amino acid.

Do you like that though? Absolutely. Okay.

So do you remember there was a whole craze about BCAAs?

Of course. Yeah, of course. Okay. It was, but that's useless.

It's not useless. No, it's actually very intentional, very deliberate, but it pales in terms of whole body effects to essentials.

That's true. So Kions have— is an essential amino acid. Right. And BCAAs are just a partial of essential— of essential.

So essential is 9 amino acids. Yeah. And essential amino acids, an amino acid your body can't make from other things.

Yes.

So you have to take it in.

Yes.

So that's the value of supplementing essential amino acids. I use essential amino acids around training times most specifically, and largely because of the concentration of leucine.

Yeah.

So leucine, isoleucine, valine, right? Yes. So leucine is the most critical—

not—

oh, let's say it. Let me think how to say this. It's the most critical, definitely the most critical, most anabolic amino acid. That's how I'll say it. It's the most potent anabolic amino acid. We think of anabolic effects of glucose through insulin, but leucine actually is a potent stimulator of insulin. Did you know that?

Yes, I did. I did.

This is the problem, by the way. Go back to fasting real quick. The fatal error in fasting is essential amino acids. Some people have put out there, they're like, oh yeah, you know, you have your caffeine, your water, you can have essential amino acids. No, absolutely not. No, essential amino acids will kick you out of, um, that's why I actually avoid on a post-fast day. We're going to do a whole session on this, okay? Yeah, you promise?

Yeah, I promise.

Because this is the, this is the crust. But Leucine. So a whole protein source I want you to avoid on your post-fast day until later in the day. Why? Because you can take— so bone broth is my workhorse for post-fast day. It allows you to actually extend out your ketosis.

Oh my God, we didn't even do this part.

I know, I know, I know.

You're gonna have to come back. You're gonna have to come back. He's gonna kill me, this guy.

Well, he's probably killing me first. No, poor Ed. We're gonna give, we're gonna give Ed like a gift carrot.

I'm telling you, I— first of all, I didn't even— we didn't finish that whole thing.

I know, I know. So that— I was just— that's the other— that's the super—

come back next week.

55,000-foot view of fasting. But it's pre-fast walk after that last meal, walk as much as you can on the fasting day. But then again, we break our fast with bone broth. That's what I would tell anybody who's out there fasting, regardless of duration. Always break with bone broth. But it goes back to the essential amino acid conversation because Bone broth is also an incomplete source of protein. It lacks leucine. Okay. If you consume leucine, I mean, you can, I can order you a tub of leucine and you can do the experiment. You consume just pure leucine, you will interrupt ketosis. You will, because leucine triggers insulin.

I didn't know that. Yeah.

So leucine stimulates muscle protein. The common, ah, it's just, this is why it's, yeah, we need, we need to do like a 6-part series.

We do.

Because this is all— and I know people hear this stuff and they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is just all, all nerdy. But I swear to you this.

No, no one's saying that. I promise you.

But no, but what I make the point of— make this point to my clients, I swear to you, if you understand why you're doing something, you're much more likely to do it over time. I'm convinced of that. If I tell you, do this, this, this, and this, One, you're probably going to forget, right? Because you don't know, there's no meaning to it. You're just following a rule. But if you understand why, then— so why, why is my fasting success? Someone asked me this. Oh well, if you're a real advocate for fasting, what percentage of your clients are successful in completing fasting or a full protocol? Literally, it's 100%. 100% across the board. Every single one of my clients. And by the end of their, their year partnership, we'll have adopted fasting as a lifestyle move. It's, it's purely, it is the most potent longevity tool. So again, I could take 20 peptides that could work, probably don't. I could take all these pills or I could just fast. I see all these posts and like, take this, this, this, and this, and here's my stack for this and blah, blah, blah, blah. And my comment always is, or you could fast.

Yeah. Oh my God.

It's crazy. How crazy is that? You could do all this. No, no, it's not free. You actually make money.

You make money. Yeah, you make money fasting.

And by the way, last thing I'll say about fasting, the most freeing thing you can do in your life is fast because you never realize, and this is when I was sharing with you my personal journey, you never realize how much time you spend in a given day focused on food until you don't eat.

I know, so that's true. That is fascinating.

And so people are like, so on your fasting day, You know, we try to do 3 movement sessions. People are like, where am I going to come up with 3 hours? Just don't eat. If you don't have to plan where you're getting your next meal, you don't have to DoorDash it. You don't have to run this way. People don't— we don't realize this is a crazy thing, how much time as Americans we spend in food-related activity.

Of course, because this is how we socialize. This is how we emotionally, like, feel our feelings. Yeah. And it's also like, it tastes good. Like, it's actually— yeah, for sure. It's like, what do you call it in life? It's like a joyful thing to do, I suppose.

I totally agree.

And I should also say, like, certain cultures dominate around— like, I'm Jewish, so that's how we socialize and connect. That's like an intimate thing we do. You know what I mean? You're taking away the element of living when you don't eat. To me, you're German. You don't know. That's why. This is why. Because you're German. You don't care.

I'm just a practical guy.

You're all about efficiency.

Food is fuel. Yeah.

Food is fuel and efficiency. I'm about eating and enjoying it. I see that. Yeah, no, that's totally fine. It's also like a sign of, what do you call it? I— what's the word? When you cook, it's like a— it's— it's— I'm, I'm, I'm missing the 3 hours.

I know. I get— no, I get what you're saying though. It is, it is, it's, it's— and I don't discount that.

I don't discount that.

Does your wife eat?

Yes.

Yes, she— yeah. No, she starves. We, we have her on a—

well, you never— listen, you don't know.

We have a 5-calorie diet.

Does she also feel like food is fuel?

No, I think she looks— yeah, food. I think she would be more aligned with what you're saying. More, more. But, but the only catch there that I would just say, just pure and simple, is whether or not I'm eating— I relate this more to alcohol consumption— whether or not I'm drinking, you know, it really actually doesn't bother people as much as we think it will whether or not you're also drinking with them.

If you want to be my guest. By the way, I don't give a shit about that. Number one, I don't drink though. I think drinking is like the worst thing you can do for your body composition. For aging, for your health, for your sleep.

Cancer, cognition, everything.

I think alcohol is by far the worst. When people always say, oh, you're, you know what, you must be on something. I'm like, actually, I'm actually off something. I haven't had a drink for 30 years. Like, I've never been a drinker. And even in college, I never liked the alcohol. I've been lucky that way.

Yep. I agree.

I've never liked the taste of it. Yep. But I think alcohol ages you in like an exorbitant amount.

Yeah. Oh, the scientific evidence is very clear. And the, the horrific attempt at justifying it that like the, the Atiyah crowd does, which is, oh, well, social connection is a powerful influencer of longevity and you need alcohol for social. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Why do you need alcohol? But see, here's my question to you. Why do you need food?

Yeah, I knew you were gonna say that. It's just a question.

It's not, it's not a right or wrong.

No, no, but listen, it's just something to think about. But I agree, like, because that was the word I was looking for earlier, like, food is a social, like, a social connector.

Yeah, yeah, lubricant.

Yeah, for sure. Okay, because like you have, like, you go on dates, you have date night, you have lunches. You're right. What I do a lot is I go for walks with people. I have all these like non-negotiables in my life, like, I don't 2 miles.

All the things you do without— and that's the gap for general American population is, and that's why, you know, people being intentional about movement seems so stupid to say, but it's only because we live in a society where—

Jonathan, you know, I just realized I would— and now I would see why you fell in the pool. What I was going to say is I sent you over text. I'm like, you know, we can have lunch after or something. You didn't respond to that.

And then now I'm sorry.

Yeah, no, no, but now I know why, because you don't eat food.

Well, just, just at intervals.

Coffee at intervals. Okay.

But it doesn't— it— I, I think you—

no, it doesn't matter. That doesn't matter now because it's 300— it's like 100 o'clock. But, but okay, wait, we got to wrap this because Ed—

yeah, we gotta get the pulse check for Ed.

It's been like 3+ hours.

Come do another one. Ed's probably gonna see me and be like swearing under his breath.

It's actually okay to do 3.5 hours. It's just probably not the greatest on a Saturday when he, you know what I mean? Because I don't really care, but he's probably like really pissed. Okay. Anyway, I will get Ed a gift card actually. Jonathan, this is part 1 of a podcast. We're gonna do like another one.

I'd love it.

I'd love it. Super soon. When can you come back?

Oh man, we're gonna have to, We're gonna have to figure it out.

When do you think you can come back?

I'm like on the spot this moment. I probably gonna be, be a few weeks. I've got, I've got, you're okay. Toronto coming up. I got Argentina coming up. We got a lot.

It's okay. Don't worry. I'm leaving town too. We can do it.

No, we, we will. I would love to. And, and I will say this just outright for your audience, like fire, fire the questions away. I mean, I think there's so much opportunity to, improve upon a lot of the assumptions that exist. And they're— the thing I stress is it's not about right or wrong. I get that the algorithm favors controversy and really extremes, but the truth lies in the nuance. And if we simplify down to things that move the needle most—

yes, I agree with you—

am I critical about all these different stacks and biohacks?

No.

What—

but What moves the needle most is movement.

100%, right?

What's the second thing? Sleep. Sleep.

Sleep is foundational. If it's, if it's off— and I'll go so far as to say this, my clients know this to be true— do what you have to do to get quality sleep. What I mean by that is, if it requires a pharmaceutical agent for you to get quality sleep, quality sleep is the metric.

What do you think is more important, sleep or movement? Ooh.

Ooh. If it, if it really was one against the other, I'd say movement. Movement is, is way more impactful for metabolic health.

I think so too.

I know that's a controversial one. But sleep is what people, and again, deal with the niche I sort of practice in, in my, I practice high performers. That's the name of the game.

100%. Look, we're both wearing our same thing.

Yeah. And the, the commonality between high performers, high output individuals is the wheels are always going. So I would say most consistently, most common issue I see with clients that's correctable is sleep hygiene, sleep architecture.

Okay.

That's it. That's where it's at.

That's it. Okay. This is— you guys, it's Dr. Jonathan Sheff. He is, as you can see, a fountain of information. This has been very informative. Go follow him. We're going to do another part 2, hopefully, maybe a part 3. Yeah, it's It's been like, what, 3 hours plus?

But it doesn't feel—

I can keep on going. I've got great endurance. We can go for another hour. Yeah, we gotta find it. Okay guys, if you have not subscribed, by the way, to this podcast, I should have said this at the beginning, please subscribe. It really helps with everything. And give me some feedback on stuff you'd like to hear, things that you've been, you know, you want more information on, less information on, and everything in between. So thank you for listening. Thank you for coming to the podcast.

My pleasure. Thank you.

And we'll see Soon. Bye-bye.