Transcript of He Won Rings in Three Decades and Nobody Noticed | John Salley | Coffeez Ep. 314

1, 2! Hi, welcome!

I demand service. Oh my gosh, I will give you service. Okay.

Are you John?

Yes, I am. What's your name?

Alyssa.

Alyssa, how are you?

I'm great.

All right, wonderful. Nice meeting you. Are you a basketball fan? I did when I was young. Yeah, I was young. Are you a Victoria's Secret model? Um, I was when I was, uh, never, but I would. But I appreciate that. You know, when I was young, that was always like the role model that you grow up and then, yeah. What would it be? Oh, the King's Showtime. I think so. What can I get you? Well, um, let me see. You got agave there, you have tea. Is it uncool to have tea? Wait, you got coconut water? I got coconut water. Oh yeah, I'll take some coconut water. Okay, beautiful. I'll make that for you. Yeah, I appreciate it. Put it in this glass?

Yes, ma'am. Thank you. No ice.

No ice.

Pure hydrating. Pure.

Okay, why coconut water? Um, because it's the closest water to your body, to your blood, and it's the only thing that really hydrates you.

100%.

Okay, I'll have me some coconut water. Yes.

Great choice.

Let's not show the label of the company. They're not paying us.

No, absolutely.

But yeah. No endorsements. Now with the holidays around the corner, I was gonna ask you, what is your favorite Christmas movie? Oh, my favorite Christmas movie is this great movie called The Ultimate Christmas Present. Of course it is! That's mine too! Isn't that crazy?

I know!

That's right. It's one of my favorite movies. That's what I like. Now come on over, I'm gonna bring you over to Joe. Joe's ready for you. Oh my goodness.

Hello, Mr. John Salley! How are you, sir? To say that I'm a fan is an understatement. Oh my goodness, I'm with an actual— like, what's up everybody? Welcome to Coffees. I'm your host, Joe Shalby, and today we are sitting with NBA legend John Salley, a 4-time NBA champion who won a championship in 3 different decades and 2 millennia. He also won it with the Bulls, played with Jordan, with the Lakers, played with Kobe, with the Pistons, played with Isiah Thomas. This guy is an absolute powerhouse and has dominated everything that he's been in, from basketball to entrepreneurship. Please welcome the one, the only, John Salley. Let's go.

You know, I don't remember not one game I've ever played in.

Was it because you just partied too much in the NBA? No.

No, it's because—

Hung out with Rodman too much, huh?

No, I didn't. Not at all, to be honest. It's because I took every game as if it was my last game. So I played it like I didn't lose focus. So they all are the same, on the same loop. That's— I guess that's what it is. Plus, I got hit in the head a lot.

And you played 3 different generations, I mean, 3 different decades. Do you attribute being a vegan to being able to have that much longevity? Because, I mean, LeBron is over here almost— he's playing almost more than you.

Yeah.

He ain't no vegan.

No, but he has way more money. So he said he puts $1 million in just to keep control of his body. And he has more advanced than we do.

$1 million, that's a lot of peptides.

You kidding? say that. They're not allowed to take peptides yet.

Yeah, stem cells are more expensive.

So, you know, I do mu cells. I got my guy here called, uh, Kyle. He hooks me up with mu cells. Those are the— those are the cheaper version. No, those are the— those are the warriors. So what they do is they put the stem cells together, and the ones that survive, those are the strongest ones, and then they extract those and then they inject them.

So those are more expensive.

Yeah, they're $85,000 between $8,500 and $10,000. So look at it this way, I do it 3 times a year, so it's $30,000 worth of staying young. But it's worth it because getting old sucks. It hurts. But after you do stem cells, it's almost like you're me, uh, like in my 30s. And I'm not exaggerating.

Really?

Yeah.

Where do you get the Muso shot?

Injected? I get it in an IV. So I take a long drip. And that drip would be about 90 minutes. And if I do it early in the day— like, sometimes I'll do it at like 11 o'clock in the day— if I do it then, then I will take some B12 and put that in it. You know, mainly in that point. But I, I don't, I don't really, uh, um, I just would do it like— and I like to do the stem cells at around 7 o'clock. I think it was like 5 to 7. So because I get tired after, and then I go to sleep. So it's just how you administer it. I, I wind up starting a company because I didn't want to just be, you know, going to this guy, this guy, this guy. Hanging from a pipe. Oh, that's one way of looking at it. But the other thing is, other way is too, I was with this company called Valhalla Vitality. And it was a trip, because when I first, you know, like your guy over here, I knew he was Scandinavian. And Valhalla, and I was like, why'd you name it Valhalla?

And he was like, you know, it's an old Viking story. And I thought it was, you know, because they're going to conquer the Tela. telemedical world. And I was like, that's a nice way of putting it. But then I had a provider certified. They did my labs. It wasn't just me bringing it to somebody who didn't know. And I'm particular. I'm particular. It's the only body I have, Joe.

Yeah.

So you have to— if this is the only body you have, my spaceship, you got to take care of it.

You've done a great job.

Thank you, man.

You've done a great job. I like to start this show off with the same question I ask everybody. And this one is going to hit home for me because I'm really going to take some— advice from you on this one. What's your morning routine?

To wake up. That's important.

And then after that?

I'll do a lot of podcasts, and a number of podcasts, but not even more than just my own. And they ask me that question, so, but you, I'll give the answer. I do Shilajit, which is—

Just a big teaspoon of it?

Not a big teaspoon, a small part. Mine is, The company is called, um, VibeMedics. Uh, Vibe—

How do you take it? You just like—

No, so I take— it's a small pinch, like a pea, and I put it in, and I put the— turn the kettle on, put the hot water on, and I let, I let it soak in it.

Milk?

No, I don't put any, uh, any bovine fluid in my system, so— oh, you called it milk?

No, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, like, you just pour hot water on top of it.

Just hot water, and give me a little spoon. It's like a spoon from the '70s, if you know what I mean. Um, but you put a little spoon of that, and just a tiny bit, man, in my joints. Because you don't, you don't really pay attention. You get older, your joints start hurting, arthritis kicks in. This right here knocks it all out.

Shilajit?

Shilajit.

Just that resin?

That resin. And especially, especially the ones that's real. I, I've tasted all of them.

They all taste the same?

Now I'm at the Natural Food Expo. Yeah, I got to the point where I got used to it because I, you know, I know it's—

I just take it like the whole spoon, just swallow it.

Really?

Yeah, it's gross. And then I slam a protein shake after.

You better watch out, it's gonna make you short and white. Oh, you drink too much of it. No, I'm just joking. But that's it. And then I, uh, I do, uh, a lot of calisthenics. So, and I have this one thing, Joe, I wish I had a video. It's called the, the Shifter, and my boy Jace made it, and it's I just get on it. People come to my house and go, what is that toy? It's not a toy. And I hang upside down just because I like being tall. And I don't want to get to the point where I'm like this. You're going to crunch over.

Yeah. That's that back machine that flips you over?

Yeah, the inverter machine, inversion machine. And I walk a lot. So I have a dog. So I do a lot of hills. I walk backwards a lot. So I really don't— I won't take a call before 11 o'clock most of the time, because I want to make sure the morning is— because my body starts waking up around 12 totally, but I get up around 8, 9. Yeah, that's it.

Then you're going to bed late.

Well, it's funny, I usually take a nap every day, but I had to drive down here and the car is on driving itself, but it still bothers me. No, I'm just joking. I, um, I get my rest.

Yeah.

And I don't— and I, I work really hard on not stressing. It's hard to do, but I work really hard on not stressing.

What do you need to stress about? You're retired. Everybody loves you. You're the most beloved guy around in the NBA. You got no beef with nobody. Not LeBron, not Jordan, nobody. Everybody loves you.

I have— well, they don't all love me, but I have no beef with anybody. Now, and this is— I'll tell you why. Life, our life is short. Life is long, but our life is short. So you think I'm gonna waste it on—

Drama?

Beef? Like, for what?

Yeah.

Like, fix it and drive on, man.

And you got, you know, I saw how you are with, you know, beautiful ladies. You still got game like, like you play basketball.

Oh, it's 'cause I don't like men and I hate men and I love women. I love so many of them. God gave me 4 daughters. He was like, you like working with women? Yeah. As you see behind the curtain. But yeah, I just, I get a better vibe from females than I do from men.

I'm with you on that one.

Yeah, man.

We can vibe on that there. So let's get into it. You're 7 foot basically, and you're full vegan. You're not even vegetarian, you're vegan. How does a vegan, diet, like, you know, nourish you sufficiently to operate that 7-foot body of yours?

You know, I was talking to this 800-pound gorilla. I said, you're a raw foodist? Everybody wants to be as strong as the ox, and they forget that the ox eats grass. And they go, well, they got 4 stomachs, and they got— let me tell you something. If you want protein to bioavailability You get it from plants. When they, they, they want you to get milk or whey, and, um, and they think that it's going to bulk you up. The reason it bulks you up is because milk is designed for a calf from a heifer until it becomes a 250-pound adult bull or heifer, it kick— if you try to feed it milk after that, it'll kick it over. But only, only humans feel that they got to eat bovine fluid. Your body doesn't work it. That's the reason you see people so big and jacked, is they're inflamed. It's just not how it is. You know, that's a beautiful city of Detroit behind you. Just—

Yeah, we're here in beautiful Detroit right now.

I know it.

Your hometown where you won your—

I know.

First championship.

I know. I was going to put Brooklyn up, But I'm trying to help revive downtown Detroit. So I always, always big up to the D. What up though?

What up, D? Let's get into it here. You know, you played with Michael Jordan, you played with Isiah Thomas, you played with Shaq, you played with Kobe, you played with LeBron, you played with all the legends.

Not LeBron.

Not LeBron. Oh yeah, that's right.

Yeah, he was born when I finished. I think he was. He was a little boy then. But no, I say Isaiah Thomas, Adrian Dantley, Dennis Rodman, Bill Laimbeer, Joe Dumars, Vinnie Johnson, Rick Mahorn, John Long, Michael Williams, Dennis Dembo, James Edwards, Bill Laimbeer.

Yeah.

And that's a group of characters that were, Mark Aguirre, sorry, sorry, draws, that was constructed a whole bunch of characters. And we just had a chip on our shoulder. And we played basketball the right way. But no one—

You say the Bad Boys was the right way?

Yeah, so they, there's been 20 rule changes.

Since you guys?

Since us.

So we got a bunch of pansies now in the NBA, you're saying, huh?

Well, we just figured out how to play the game to the rule and to the edge of the rule. That's a whole nother thing. So they were like, oh man, you guys hit people. Boston Celtics hit people. We just didn't allow you to get to the basket. You know, we're not gonna— I can only block this. If you're going straight to the basket, I'm trying to block you. I have to get in the way of you. And they didn't quite get that. But we wasn't, you know, bad guys. We just played the game the way it was always played by men. What I mean by that, not saying women didn't play, but it's— and I can say this, if you watch the WNBA now, Angel Reese and a couple of the other ladies are no joke.

No, I know.

They play exactly like we played in the '80s, and it's accepted. And they get off the— they get up off the ground and they go shoot the foul shots and they'd be, be PO'd. But now If you hit a guy in the NBA, remember half these guys are Fortune 500 companies. So you're damaging a Fortune 500 company is why it's so, why it's one, it's emphasized, why it's so looked down upon playing tough like that.

Well, you're saying like guys like LeBron are literally a Fortune 500 company.

There's about, there's a couple of them. Remember there's—

Steph Curry, you got—

No, there's guys, there's guys who've made over $330 million in their career. You don't even know. Most people don't know their names. I mean, that's—

You got like Durant's like the highest paid ever.

Yeah, yeah, Durant. But what should make you wonder, right? Like he's the highest paid ever and he's like, wow. And he's the, my favorite player. And I've said this on VladTV, I said this for years. He was my favorite player 'cause we had the same body. But he can shoot better than me, dribble better than me, and even though we both would wanna kill you, he is just a stone killer. Like, I love Kevin Durant. That's my guy. I agree, and player on player. Player on player.

So who was your favorite to play with? Who taught you the most in the NBA? Was it Jordan, out of Kobe, Jordan, Isaiah Thomas.

By the time I got to the Lakers, I was the teacher.

You were the teacher.

I sound like Darth Vader. I am now the teacher.

Well, by the time you got to the Lakers, but that was like towards the end.

Yeah, that was my last year.

That was your 4th championship.

Yeah, yeah, I deserved 7, but I only got 4.

You also deserve the Hall of Fame, which— Yeah, which is cool.

I'm in the Hall of Fame.

You are?

Yeah, 'cause all 4 of the teams I won championships are in the Hall of Fame, baby. I've been there 4 times. But individually, I never looked at it that way. I've never, that was the best thing about being on Detroit. We wasn't trying to stack our stats, we were trying to win a championship.

Yeah.

So I sacrificed, everybody had to sacrifice. And I could score like anybody else, I'm gonna, you put the orange thing in the orange thing. And I've been doing that since I was 6 or 7, really serious since I was 12. So I could put the ball in the basket, but they needed defense and blocked shots and everybody on one accord. So, and you know what's funny? I asked her, who scored the most points in Game 7 of the championship that we— you just saw? No one knows. No one knows because who scored the most points wasn't important. The most important was who won the game.

That's right.

So that's the way I looked at it. So I learned the most from Detroit. I was 22 years old. I had a great coach, Chuck Daly. I had great veterans, and Adrian Dantley, I always thought with him. Joe Dumars, Sid Green, Rick Mahorn, Isaiah Thomas. So I had to learn. Joe Dumars, Vinnie Johnson, really, they would whisper things to me. Young fella, you know, next time somebody's talking, shut up. I was like, okay. But I learned, and I had, and I was, A lot of humility. Humility.

So let's jump into it. Before the championships, before the fame, before the legendary teammates, there was a young guy learning the lessons that would eventually prepare him for some of the toughest locker rooms ever known in sports history, right? So growing up in Brooklyn, what shaped you more? Was it your family? Was it your neighborhood? Was it basketball?

It was my family. Yeah, I'm from a— the Sally family is, is a really big family. I got 51 first cousins just on one side.

How many siblings you got?

I got 4 brothers, 3 brothers. Well, really had like 5 brothers, but I don't—

Did any of them play pro?

No, no, no, no, no. I'm the great one in the family. No, you know what's funny? My brothers— I was a football player because my brother Ron football player. My brother Jerry was like the second or first black quarterback at my high school. And I remember, you know, I ran a route and did a button hook, caught the ball. When I turned around, I got hit. I took my helmet off, went straight to the gym. And, you know, I was like, I am not built for this cold weather, smelly, overly aggressive savages. I'd rather be in the gym with it. the cheerleaders are. So I went straight and basketball became my focus. But that focus was my brothers. You talk about routine. It was like, Johnny, get up. And you, what's up? And he said, we're gonna run this mile. And you get up, move a little bit. You go to the bathroom for a second, put your sneakers on, run down the stairs. We lived on the 8th floor, down the stairs, and we would run around the project outside, which was a mile. Then we would do—

2 miles.

25 push-ups and how many holds you can do and how many crunches and then how fast it was to run back up the 8 flights. To the point where that became my routine from 14 until 18, every day. Snow, sleet, rain, race riots, didn't make a difference. Heat, you had to get up in the morning and do that routine, so. always being in shape was important. You don't get ready, you stay ready.

So would you say that that philosophy of always being ready that you learned as a kid, you've kept that your whole life? Would that be the thing that kind of shaped you?

Yeah, there's no better time than the present. That's a constant I say even, like even if I go, oh, I'll get up in a minute and do that, I get up right then. 'Cause as soon as that it could wait situation, that's a mistake. You can't wait. You know, when opportunity knocks, you open the door. So you have to, you have to be ready. If an opportunity came in, someone hit me with something that I'm doing, I have to be ready. I'm a samurai. Somebody comes at me, I gotta be ready to handle it.

Now you're gonna like this, you know, when I met you, Jon, for the first time in person, you strike me as like a super confident guy. Right?

Oh yeah.

Yeah, extreme confidence, got charisma like nobody's business. At what point did you realize the difference between confidence and arrogance?

So I'm also a minister of the Frequency Church, and we deal in all kinds of plant medicines.

Frequency Church, is that like— what kind of church is that?

It's a church for mushrooms and for DMT and for ayahuasca and for bufo. and a couple of others, uh, cannabis plant, psychedelics, uh, psilocybin. So we made it a church so we can get donations.

Is it for tax purposes?

Well, yes and no. Yes, it feels crazy for me to ask you to pay me to— you to eat something that the earth has given you, right? It's a, it's a little different, but I'm saying all that to say, when I did my own journeys—

On ayahuasca?

Yeah. I realized this is a skin bag of bones and blood. My spirit has nothing to do with this wonderful, sexy body you're looking at right now. So watch yourself. I'm watching you, Joe.

You're not my type, man. Remember how you said, I don't like men? I love women.

I see the glare in your eye, man. I'm not that guy.

I know you're from LA, and you can say a lot.

Baby, go get your man. No, what I mean is, once I realized that I was not really of this body, that's why I can joke and be calm and seem like confidence. It's because I know none of this is real, in a way. And I know we put so much on things that don't really matter. And I'd rather be fun and optimistic.

Yeah.

and charismatic than walk in here like, don't you know who you think I used to be? For what? You know?

Yeah.

Like, you talk to me about playing sports, and I say to people all the time, they go, oh, you play basketball? I said, yeah, when I was young I played. And then it goes on and on and on, and then they go, why you didn't tell me you was a pro? I said, you didn't ask me that. You asked me if I played basketball, I answered it. Like, it doesn't define me. It's It's what I did, and I was so blessed to do it. And I— one in a million Americans is an NBA basketball player. Every one being—

It's probably less than that, but—

No.

And then there's only like a few that won championships. And then of that, nobody's won them in 3 different decades.

In 2 millenniums. Just thought I'd mention it.

Yeah, and 2 millenniums. Nobody's won them in 2 millenniums. Y'all left that out. 3 different decades, 4 different teams.

But that's another thing when they start talking about the Hall of Fame. It's a team game. It's a team game. And I remember how I got on the Lakers. Do you wanna hear that story?

Yeah, absolutely. How'd you get on the Lakers?

So '99, it was the shortened season. And one time in my life, I'm watching a game. Right? I literally stopped to watch the game 'cause Shaq and Kobe is playing and I'm watching and I go, that's weird. These guys are losing. If they had the triangle offense from the Bulls, man, Phil should be coaching this squad. So I do what I do and I get his phone number and I call him. He's in Montana. And I go, what's up, Philly? He goes, what's up, Sal? How'd you get my number? I said, man, Don't worry about that. But I said, did you watch this Laker game? He goes, yeah. I said, dog, these guys are too good not to win championships. You gotta get back in the game. And Phil goes, who you been talking to? I go, well, you know, I'm a recluse, I don't talk to anybody. He says, I just got the Laker job, but we're not announcing it until like in a week. And I go, yo, man, I live 5 doors from Shaq. And I'm looking at Kobe, my kind of person, you gotta get me in there. And he goes, are you in shape?

I said, don't insult me. I said, yeah. And he goes, well, go to UCLA next week and Jerry West is gonna be there and it's the pickup games in the freshman gym. I said, oh yeah, I used to go to those. So I go in, guys hadn't seen me in 3 years. And they were like, what are you doing? Oh, what's up, Sal? And I'm getting in this run. And at this time I'm 35 years old. And I do what I need to do. And Jerry's like, yes, we're going to put you on the squad. But my mentality was nobody's going to beat the triangle offense. The proven fact is Phil in 10 years won 6 championships, then won 5 championships in another 10 years, and then this guy named Steve Kerr takes an idea or a hybrid form of the triangle, and he wins 4 championships. It's the system, and it could really help, because when guys know angles and how the ball is to move, you win. So he was like, yo, yeah, if you wanna come on the squad. And I put my body, I was in shape, right? I was in shape just 'cause I like to look good in clothes, but I wasn't in basketball shape.

So I put myself back in basketball shape. Took me about 6 months. And then I was, but then when, at the end of the season, when he told me he had no more real estate on the team for me, you know, I didn't, I don't like losing. And I knew they were not gonna lose. So going to another team would've been cool. Great check, but I went, did 3 movies that summer, and then started a late night talk show on BET. So I knew entertainment, this entertainment was my future, so I just jumped in with 2 feet.

All in. Time to go. So what is the triangle offense?

The triangle offense is developed by Tex Winters, God rest his soul, who was a longtime assistant on the Bulls, and then Phil Jackson's longtime assistant. And when I got to the Bulls in '96, he was— he liked that I kept asking questions about it and my idea of what it was. And then he autographed one of my favorite autographs. I got an autographed book from Wilt Chamberlain and I got an autographed book from Tex Winters. And it's important on how it's set up. It was developed in the '50s, '40s or '50s. And he called it the triangle attack offense. Technical offense. So it's everything, everything, everything is built up in angles anyway on this planet. So it's 3, 6, and 9. It's put together.

So let me ask you about Kobe Bryant. I mean, he had the hardest— I mean, is the— are the rumors about Kobe Bryant's work ethic true?

Yeah.

This guy worked—

Not rumors. It's documented.

Documented. Yeah, I mean, he was the hardest working guy ever in the NBA.

Not ever, but he was, he was really hardworking.

Who worked harder?

Well, I also have a problem when they say the greatest ever. The reason I have a problem with the greatest ever, because, you know, greatest of all time, time has not stopped. Like, I never thought there was gonna be somebody better than Oscar Robertson, and then I never thought I was gonna see somebody jump and do the things with the ball like Dr. J. And I've seen it 4, 5, 6 times now. You know, it's funny when OBJ catches the ball with one hand and pulls it back in, in the end zone, everybody talks about the catch. Since then, I've seen high school kids do it. So you can't be the greatest of all time. You can be greatest in your span, in whatever span you were playing, but of all time, it's crazy. That's just my mentality.

Right, so like Jordan's not the greatest of all time?

Jordan, the excuse is, that's the exception. You know why? Because everybody is the Michael Jordan of their profession. Tom Brady is the Michael Jordan of football. Tiger Woods is the Michael Jordan of golf.

Michael Jackson is the Michael Jordan of music.

Well, I love Prince and Michael. I was crazy about Michael Jackson since I was a young boy. And when I got around him, I'm gonna tell you, I was in a place where he walked in, the molecules in the room do change. And there was no, ah, ooh, it was just like, you feel that? And they were like, what? And they go, oh, MJ just walked in. I swear to God. And I was like, wow.

That's his aura.

Yeah, it was big.

His aura is real. But they say that Michael Jordan too, his aura is like, Crazy. I mean, your aura was intense here too. You know, you walked in a room, you just light up the place.

I appreciate that.

I mean, you're not Michael Jordan, but you know, you're up there.

But this is another, another thing you would say, right? And I'm so happy you say confidence or ego, because, um, if you do plant medicines, we will get rid of the ego. The ego will reveal itself. And you'll realize it's not real. The mother plant will take you to a point and humble you until you give up ego. So, a healthy ego is okay, but inflated, I'm better than everybody else, I'm not better than everybody else. I just know I'm of the same source as everyone else, right? Skin color doesn't make you better than me. Height, looks. None of that makes you better. So it doesn't make you a better person. When you die, you die without any of those things. When the ego dies, you realize you don't need those. You may want them, but you don't need them. And that's just me going back on that thought.

Of the greats you played with, Kobe, Shaq, Jordan, who had the least ego? No.

Even our ball boys have ego. Our ball boys like, you know, I'm a ball boy for the Bulls, get out of my way. You want me to pay to get in this movie? I'm a ball boy for the Bulls, you know, get out of here, the Bulls. Um, man, it just depends. You mean out of those guys? You have to have that killer mentality or that mentality that I'm the best on the court or you lose. So it's not ego, it's bravado. It's this oomph you gotta have, male or female, you gotta have that, this person is trying to stop me and trying to make me look bad.

Now, of those guys, who's the funniest superstar you've ever played with?

Shaquille.

Shaq, and he's known for that.

Yeah.

He's a jokester.

Yeah, he's hilarious.

Who's still one of your best friends of the greats?

You mean out of my ex-teammates?

Yeah.

Well, they were teammates. I found out in retirement you don't have many friends.

Really?

No, friends is a gift you give yourself. But there's still guys, if I saw them, I would love to be around them. Glenn Rice, Brian Shaw, Keith Askins, John Long, James Edwards. Lakers, I was on the Bulls, Judge Buechler, all of those cats, Steve Kerr, all of them. I loved being around those guys.

But you're not like in touch with these, but you got, you're in the entertainment world, you run into these people now?

Not really, not really. I saw Steve Kerr, you know, I still got contact with Steve, but I never really bought, I was such, I always wanted to, everybody wanted to be an All-Star, I wanted to be a trailblazer. Not the Portland Trail Blazers, I wanted to start the road where athletes follow.

Mm-hm.

Like, I loved how O.J. was perceived by the world, before the debacle with his ex-wife and all of that. But the way they thought about Jim Brown, the way they thought about, shoot, tons of athletes that played, Kareem, once they did this part of entertainment, I loved that feeling. So I wanted to, I knew my transition was from athletics into entertainment. Now it's into— Living longer.

When did you pivot into longevity? You've been a vegan since '91.

Yeah, I was a lying vegetarian since '91, meaning when my mother was alive, if she made fried chicken, I ate it. Uh, I had shrimp, lobster. And then 2007, a friend of mine said, you know, you keep saying you're a vegetarian, but I watched you eat lobster. And I go, yeah, at Mastro's, that's what you do, bro. And he was like, then you gotta stop saying that you're a vegetarian. And I was like, you know, you're right. So I was doing a PSA for PETA.

What's PSA?

Well, yeah, it's— PETA is— I became a member of PETA, is partly why I became a vegan, when I realized it wasn't just about my health, it was about the murder of all those sentinel beings, those animals. So I joined that fight and I support it and I'm an advocate of it. But I would say 20 years now, 20 years strong.

And you would attribute veganism to the reason why you're so healthy now?

Yeah, plant-based eating and the correct supplements. Water, I got a new water system that goes in the house, it's called BETTA Water. It's B-E-T-T-A, not It's like Mo' Better. Uh, my— yours may be good, but mine is better. Uh, Better Eating Today, Tomorrow, Always. So, uh, B-E-T-T-A. And it's a water system with, uh, AlkaVista. And I literally am having it put in my house next week for the whole house system. So not only am I selling it, I'm making it. And I usually won't do anything unless— when I'm really particular about a brand, I figure out how I could be of service, and as opposed to just, you know, being a consumer. So this has some hydrogen in it, it has reverse osmosis, it has water softening. Just, just how I take care of it, man. This is like I said, uh, one time when I was working at becoming an herbalist and I was doing Chinese herbs and trying to learn saying them in Chinese and And my father was like, uh, I woke up this morning, but I ain't wake up this morning. I'm like, what do you mean? He goes, you know what I mean.

Like, I woke up, but down there didn't seem to wake up like it used to wake up. Give me some of that Chinese stuff you got to make down there. You know, I'm not saying it was erectile dysfunction, but he was close to 70, 60-something years old. And when I see it on television now, all the pills, all the— that they're telling you to take. I realized I might have something here. How do I continually make this life move forward? How do I wake up in the morning fully? How do I take care of my kidneys? How do I clean up my liver? That's, that's my focus on when they say look for the God within. That's what it is. I try to keep the temple as clean and as positive and as strong as possible.

You know, uh, so I'm from Egypt.

No.

Yeah, full— I'm a full—

Where?

Cairo, Egypt.

Where in Cairo?

I'm the whitest black man you've ever met. Uh, African-American.

You're truly African-American.

I'm truly African-American.

Yeah, I'm just an American. My father's a blackfoot Indian.

See, I'm actually from Africa. Anyway, uh—

Ice! Can I get some ice? I'm sorry, he got so nervous.

No, no, I'm a citizen.

Yeah, yeah, that's what they That's what they all say. They put you in a container. No, I'm joking. No, no, no, I don't want any ice.

No, no, the, the reason why I mentioned that is, uh, because I'm Coptic, and the Coptic Christians, we eat vegan 2/3 of the year.

Yeah.

And if you look back at like ancient Christianity, God told you how to eat.

Yes, he said in the first book.

Yeah, so he gave you a diet, like your diet plan. So, you know, real original Christians, the original Christians, they're vegan half the year.

You mean Seventh-day Adventists?

No, no, Orthodox Christians. Orthodox Christians.

They are too. Seventh-day Adventists are vegetarian.

Yeah, they're full.

They're supposed to be. They're supposed to be. Not all of them.

Yeah, they're full vegan. I mean, if you go to Loma Linda, they're all vegan.

Shoot, I had a restaurant there. That's where my vegan restaurant was.

Yeah, so did it do well? I mean—

It should have, but they also don't come on the other side of the 10. So they stick to that blue zone right there. Yeah, that's, that's amazing that you're Coptic.

You know about our people?

Yeah, yeah, I study religion.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, I love, I love, I love figuring out all the different control techniques. I want to know exactly how they control us, so I pay attention. Yeah, well, you know, um, you know, most of the rules that they come up with are not in the Bible.

Yeah, I mean, especially in Orthodoxy. I mean, those are just sacraments and just rites. They call them the rites.

Don't call them paganism. What'd you say?

No.

Okay.

They're just— that's just the way it's been done. And they say, you know, that we've been doing it this way for thousands of years. And a lot of it, because we're ancient Egyptian, we've been passed down some of our traditions from the pharaohs. So some of our chants are from the pharaohs. And the Coptics were the original descendants of the pharaohs, the last of the descendants.

Right. So everything, you know, that's what religion did. Everything comes from Egyptology.

Yeah.

Well, Kemet. Y'all call it Egypt. But yeah, I went there too, man. I laid against the, uh, Great Pyramid of Gaza, and they were like, oh, you can't. I said, stop talking to me. And they were like, what? I said, don't talk to me. Don't tell me I can't lean on the pyramid. No, you're not allowed. I'm allowed. I'm leaning on it. It was the most amazing place Some of the greatest food. That's what he said, the vegan food there was amazing. I had a really cool guy show me around. Great country. I got— they kind of gangstered me at the airport though. We ain't gonna talk about the time.

Well, yeah, because you're a tourist.

Yeah, yeah, gangster.

They tried to gangster me because they thought I'm a tourist, but I'm like, I speak fluent Arabic. And it threw them off. Like, dude, this dude's from our town.

He said, hey, this guy's a CIA agent. This guy speaks Oh yeah, he speaks fluent Arabic. Oh my God, yes, you would love Egypt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I took pictures on the Nile. I went out at night on a boat.

Yeah, it's party town all night there.

Yeah, it was, it was, it was a trip. How'd they gangster you at the airport? So this is how they gangstered me at the airport. So I'm trying to get my ticket on my phone, but it's— they said, no, you got to pick it up at the airport. I said, that's 2021, we pick it up at the airport. What, are you kidding me? I said, all right, man, I get— I said, but you know, I'm on the, on the 11:30 flight. He said, yeah, we'll get you there. So I get to the airport at 9:30 and everything is closed. And I got my bags on the wheeler and the guy tried to touch it. I go, no, I got it, man. He goes, no, no, no. I said, my man's, I got it. I don't like people touching my stuff. And he was like, okay, down there. And I go, and there's one of the X-rays. And there's no cops running the X-rays. It's just these guys from Egypt. And then the guy I didn't give my bag to went— I had to tip him off.

It was like $5, goddamn.

No, they took all my— because I was going back with money so I could say, hey, this was from Egypt. I got this point from here. They got all of that cash. And then soon as I get through, then the airport is where you would go get your ticket and go through security again. I was like, did you know they did that back at— they're just gangsters. They got me.

All right. I want, I want to pull back the curtain on, on, uh, some of the greatest locker rooms known in sports history. So we're gonna, we're gonna talk about the Bad Boys. Everybody knows the Bad Boys. Well, I mean, some people do. Your, your kids probably don't. I mean, most Gen Zers definitely don't. Um, but the Bad Boys The Bad Boys reputation was crazy, you know, you guys were like, you guys had like a thug reputation.

Well, they know us 'cause we had a 30 for 30 on ESPN.

Yeah.

So that made us a little bit more relevant in this time. But go ahead.

But like, was that real? Like, was it really like the Bad Boys were the— do you think that you guys really were the Bad Boys or that was just like the style?

No, that was the moniker that David Stern put on us. They wound up doing in 1988, even after we lost the championship, that somebody came out with a video of us, even though we didn't win the championship. VHS at that time, NBA Entertainment, because they thought it was a better story. And so it was called Bad Boys. And so that's what we wound up doing. Bill Lambert said, since they think we're the bad guys, let's live the life. And we became the Raiders of the NBA. And that was our mentality. Smoke up all the smoke, drink up all the drink, talk to all the girls and beat you. Right. So, and our mentality was win as many games, don't lose a home game and win half your games on the road. We wound up getting 63 wins with that attitude.

Do you think that was a catalyst for like Dennis Rodman's persona?

No, Dennis Rodman's persona is, uh, what Dennis observed. He was always a rock and roll kid. He was the first one I saw with ripped jeans and, um, and open combat boots.

I mean, I was going clubbing with him at like 15, 16 years old. He was here in Orange County, he's partying all the time. Like, we were partying at his house, he would run all night long.

Your parents should, should whip your butt. Oh, I—

yeah, yeah, I know. I was young.

I was a young Yeah, Dennis Rodman's 4 years older than me. Isn't that crazy? He was a 26-year-old rookie. And so, but he literally is not from this planet. I've never, you've never seen anybody party like that. I've never seen an athlete with his basketball play, with his legs. You know, black folks usually got small skinny calves.

Yeah, he's got big calves.

Except for Alonzo Mourning and him. We've never seen Baby Joe party.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, really?

Yeah, I mean, that was around— that was— I was doing it as a kid with Dennis Rodman.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So it's just— it's— I've never seen an athlete like him ever.

And, um, nobody partied like him ever in NBA history.

He's still in Newport Beach doing this.

No, they kicked him out of Newport. He got kicked out of Newport Beach. Yeah, he got kicked out 5 years ago. Yeah, he was running parties all night long on the sand. Every day. Every day.

Yeah, what else you gonna do?

Like, every day.

You must have never been to Brazil. That's the way it is in Brazil too. Every day is a party except Sunday.

Dennis Rodman.

Every day.

But Dennis Rodman was— yeah, he was wild. I mean, all night long, like no sleep. People, you know, people would leave in the next day.

Yeah.

He's— how old is Dennis Rodman?

67.

I mean, he's still in great shape. He's still around here. I don't know where he lives. I'll see him like He looks like a homeless dude now.

Like when he lives in Houston.

He lives in Houston?

Yeah. Yeah.

67 years old.

66 years old.

But is he doing any longevity stuff or is like, he's just—

Obviously he doesn't need to. There's certain people like, um, like, uh, what's his name?

He could just smoke and drink and do drugs his entire life and live to 100.

I don't know if he did drugs. I think he was, um, I think he was more of an alcohol person. And he would like, uh, Jäger. But, you know, he always trained too. So even though he, you know, trained hard, even though he partied hard, he trained harder. So he kept his— the deal is this, and I don't want to give anybody a free lane to do this, but if you take care of your organs, if you mess— if you— everything goes to your kidneys. If you— if your kidneys get inflamed and you figure out how to take care of your kidneys, you're all right. The way I look at it is like this, Joe. You got 73 trillion cells in your body. If you keep 73 trillion cells cancer-free, you live long. That's all. Simple, simple, simple game. Put the orange thing in the orange thing. Don't damage your body, you live longer. That's, that's it.

Yeah, I mean, I, I can tell you with certainty, he damages his body a lot. And you might not know as much as I do.

I'll leave it there.

But the reputation of the Bad Boys, you guys weren't the Bad Boys. You guys are just a bunch of guys who just—

Hardworking Detroit citizens, blue collar. Don't embarrass our city. Don't embarrass yourself. stick together and win the game. That's who we were. Yeah, we carried a whole city on our back. That city was, in '86, was going through a rough time. And it's coming out of the ashes now, but it was rough in the '80s.

I mean, it took a couple billionaires to revitalize that place.

One, one smart one, Dan Gilbert.

Dan Gilbert.

Yeah, Dan Gilbert was the first investor, and now you got the Huntington Bank, the family behind it. And people are realizing it's, it's an unbelievable place. The Tigers are great. The Lions got really close to winning the Super Bowl or getting to a Super Bowl.

And they're looking better this year.

Yeah. Yeah. So the Pistons are going to be better this year. They had the best record in the league last year but came up short against the champion New York Knicks. Just wasn't in the stars at the end of May. So the hockey team has always been great. The naked ballet over in Windsor has always been entertaining. You guys call them strip joints, we call them naked ballets.

What is a naked ballet?

The Canadian ballet.

I do a conference every quarter in Michigan.

Really? You gotta have me there, man.

Yeah, for some reason everyone goes to those Canadian ballets. I'm like, why do you guys all—

The Canadian, those girls? Putting themselves through university and dancing. All that practice and all that ballet dancing pays off. Yeah. I mean, it's— hey, I'm with it.

They're pushing.

Yeah, a lot of shirts. They are.

I want to get behind the curtain a little bit more. What's a Bad Boy story that nobody ever heard?

How would I tell you?

Give me a good one then.

I can't, uh, I don't know. I don't, I don't know what you would want, Joe. What, how you would want me to tell you. Yeah, I don't, I don't have, I don't really have any. It's just like, I was the young cat, man, and, uh, my vets held me responsible. I mean, from dressing to packing to presentation. I don't really have any, any of those kind of stories. We— I— that was the difference when I went to some teams. I'm not gonna say the team. The maturity level was entirely different. I was on a team full of vets who had wives and businesses and were serious about their paper and was older and more refined. So I had— I got to learn from that.

That's great.

Yeah, but then I went to the places where guys, if they lose the game, they still went to the club. That was not happening in Detroit. You lose a game and show up at the club that night, man, the audience, the people in the club, turn the music on, turn the lights out, get your butt back under the— You know what? You didn't play well enough to be in the club with us. You know, we're in here drowning our sorrows and you in here trying to talk to girls. Get outta here, go work out. You know, I was in the, Arbor Drugstore. They're not— I think they're still in business. And I'm staying there and this lady's looking at me and she's in front. She turns, she looks at me again. I said, hello. She goes, hello. And she goes, she goes, why do you miss your foul shots? They're free. They're called free throws. Why do you miss? Like when you get up there, I said, oh, that was a good foul because he's not gonna make them pay by hitting his foul shot. Hit your foul shots and turn back around. I just put my stuff down and left.

Crazy thing, I went from shooting 65% to 83%.

Just that one statement.

'Cause she was right.

Yeah.

Man, you should've told Shaq that. Well, Shaq and I used to go shoot every Sunday. And he can hit 'em when we were shooting then. It's a mental thing though. Plus, it's a matter, like, if you watch Steph Curry, it doesn't look like he's thinking about it. He's not, he's done it so many times in his life that when it leaves his hand, he knows if it's going in or not.

Yeah.

So.

And it's the same with his 3-pointers.

Yeah, that's the way it is. Whatever he shoots, he's like, you know, and I graduated, I mean, I was in the same, his dad was in the same draft I was in. It's a better way of putting it, bruh. And his dad was an unbelievable shooter. And so just to see what Steph has done, that's what I mean by the greatest of all time. His father was one of the greatest shooters in the NBA, but Steph is the greatest shooter. So, you know, he's a better shooter than his father. So there's always gonna be somebody better. And people try to latch onto it, who's better, this person or that person. Kobe proved on camera the Olympic team guys did not have his mentality. And they did a documentary when they were showing that team with Carmelo Anthony, D-Wade, LeBron, and, you know, they all saw how serious he was about playing and winning. And Kobe knew on this team, I'm the statesman, I'm the elder, and I have to lead by example. And this is how you become— this is the work you put in makes you a better player. So that's why I always say, there's great in so many different ways.

That's right. Now I wanna talk about Michael Jordan because I've never met anybody that won a championship with Michael Jordan. I've never had the blessing of meeting someone who was tight with Michael Jordan. I really got to hang out with Michael Jordan. I mean, you really know Michael Jordan. I mean, you were in the locker room with Michael Jordan.

Oh yeah, yeah, I know him, 'cause I wanted to go to North Carolina, and I went to visit Georgia Tech the weekend they were playing North Carolina, and I realized I wanted to go to Georgia Tech. Like, I wanna play against him. Like, I love being on the same squad and all that, But I am very competitive. But I was— MJ and I have always been cool since college. You know, I'm not— I don't call myself his best friend, but we have ultimate respect for one another. To do The Last Dance, they were like— he was like, call Sal, you know, he doesn't forget anything. Because I've always been like I am right now.

I mean, I remember seeing The Last Dance.

Yeah, yeah. So I I loved being around MJ, was always accommodating. And, you know, one time we beat him and we supposed to go eat after the game. And I come out and I'm waiting on him. He's in the car, I said, Money, what's up? Man, I can't go out with you. And he gets in the car and he vroom, gets away. And then later I was like, what happened? He said, man, I can't be seen out with you. We just lost, y'all just beat us. What would I look like going out with you? I was like, sad like you are right now? You know I'm gonna joke him. You gonna look sad.

What team were you on when you beat him?

Detroit. We beat him all the time. And then they won one. And then you went with him. Yeah, yeah, look, Joe, a lot of people take the NBA and they take the team and they think the player should be of the team. I look at it this way. I work for the NBA. I was in the Detroit office, the Miami office, the Toronto office, the Los Angeles office, the Chicago office. That's the way I look at it. I do not, I don't look at it as if I'm a part of this team. I'm not, 'cause the only reason I'm there is because they gave me a contract. I'm not there—

Right.

'Cause they love me. I'm not there for anything else except And so I didn't, it's like being at IBM. They go, hey, we're gonna transfer you to the San Antonio office. They need a little help. Or, we gotta empty this place out, so we're gonna put you in the San Antonio office, the Miami office, the Dallas office. That's the way I looked at the NBA.

Yeah.

And I played basketball 'cause I loved it. Soon as I was losing my love for it, playing, or that was the deal. You lose your love in the NBA for the game because it's not about love of the game anymore, it's a check. And I love to debate people, I still loved playing at one time. I was at, I'll tell this story, Cedric the Entertainer, you know who that is?

Of course.

So Cedric and my boy Duane Martin, who I grew up with, and a couple other guys, we're at Cedric's house and we gonna play basketball. And I used to carry my sneakers in the car. So I get my sneakers and I'm playing and they say, this young kid is pretty good, Salvin. I said, whatever, man. You know, I'm stretching, I'm doing— Man, you still look like you can play. Yeah, you know, I still can do what I— and I got down, let me see what you got, young fella. And Joe, he went by me so fast on the left side of my body and my left side didn't move. So imagine being a pro athlete that when you get a vibration of somebody going, I could drop step and cut them off. I can slide my feet. I can— I'm in rhythm with whatever's happening. Kinetic energy. He went by me so fast this way that I had to turn and look over my right shoulder to see him. And I looked down at my feet and I said, I'm done. They were like, oh, come on, Sal. I go, no, man, my feet didn't move.

He goes, what? I said, some people have to know when they're done. I'm done. Like, my body's not doing what I programmed it to do for 30 years.

I mean, Jalen Brunson did that to pros in the Finals.

I mean, Jalen Brunson is a great player and a great Patriot and a great human being. Against us, he would have got put on his back. But he doing all that is great. Yeah, I love Jay.

Come play with Sal now. You know, he can't even—

There's not a person in the NBA or in this country that doesn't like Jalen Brown.

No, he's this amazing human.

Yeah.

I want to talk about Jordan for a couple more questions here.

Okay. We're going to edit the whole show anyway.

Yeah. Anyways, what's one thing people get completely wrong about Jordan?

I don't know if they get it completely wrong, but from my POV, him picking on people and being hard on people. It's really him just being hard on himself. 'Cause he's going at you to get you to go back at him. We said it in Detroit, our practices were way harder than the game. So when we got in the game, the game was a breeze. 'Cause we had already, we already sharpened our swords in practice. Metal sharpens metal. But he wanted it so much and he believed You know, when he, when he won his first championship, you know, it was a great thing. But when, when we came back and won in '96 after his father had passed and he's crying on the floor, I mean, a whole year of doing this. You know what people say to you after you win, Joe? You guys are going to do it again next year. They don't even enjoy the moment. So—

You think they're saying that about the Knicks right now? I mean—

100%. Everybody is tooling up to how to beat the Knicks. That's what Philadelphia is doing.

Yeah. And they're looking good. Philly's looking—

Yeah. You know, this thing called injuries.

Yeah.

Happens all the time. Not wishing anything on anybody.

I mean, Joel Embiid only made like 30 games in the last 2 years, so.

Yeah, I would want to— that's what I was talking about. I have this machine at my house called a shifter. I'll make sure I send you guys a video of it so you can implant it. But it literally teaches you balance. I asked, I was on Gilbert Arenas' show, and I asked why he, Anthony Davis, I wanted to ask why they were on the floor so much. Like, I don't ever remember seeing Moses Malone, or Dow Dawkins, or Maurice Lucas, or Parish on the ground. You know, it's a, far way down, especially when you don't have anybody holding you up or your hands are not there to catch you. You know, if you take—

I feel like it's for dramatic effect. Like Shea Gilderoy Alexander is always like going to the ground.

But he's short.

Yeah.

And he's going to the ground because he jumps so high. And, um, and coming down and figuring out how to land— taking off is one thing, it's how to land is the next. I just always wondered if a skyscraper walks down, it causes more damage If a skyscraper is toppled. If a small building topples, not as much. It's just probably the ground it's on. But if a skyscraper, think how many blocks it takes out. So that's energy too, back to kinetic energy.

Can you remember one story that perfectly explains Michael Jordan?

Yeah. His father is found murdered. And as opposed to Michael hating and wanting these guys on the death penalty, he, uh, he prayed for him and he wished, you know, it hadn't happened. And he kind of forgave them. That takes bravery beyond bravery.

Wow. And I remember, I mean, that death impacted so many people.

Yeah.

You felt like your dad died when that happened. I didn't know that.

No, when my dad died, I felt a little different. I was like, man. Now I gotta— everybody call me for money. They used to just call my father.

That's something that isn't mentioned, that, you know, was Michael— is Michael a strong man of faith?

He's opened up free clinics in neighborhoods that need medical attention. And he's doing that along with his mom's help and sister. They wanna be of service to the community, especially back in North Carolina where he came from. You can't do everything for everybody, right? You can only really do one thing at a time. So the fact that he's even thinking about doing that. You know, he got in trouble 'Cause he made a joke. And that's another thing, Michael was really funny, really loves to laugh. When he makes a joke, people take it personal. Because, you know, Michael Jordan said that about me, made a joke about me, I'm gonna go jump off the bridge. You know, it's crazy. He said, you know, hey, the guy, Democrat, was running in North Carolina. And he was like, hey man, you can really help me endorse, we gotta beat this Republican. He said, Republicans wear Nikes too.

I remember that.

Right?

I remember that.

But he's joking, not joking. And the fact that people thought, man, you Michael Jordan, you should do whatever I tell you to, or I want you to do this, you're not doing it, how could you not do that? I'm Black. I don't care what color you are if I don't wanna do something. And Michael was like, yo, it's not my job to be political on your half. I'm from North Carolina, I live in Chicago, I'm not obligated to you. And they were like, man, you gotta help a brother out. And he goes, I help brothers out, that doesn't mean I gotta help you out. And, you know, as opposed to him saying it that way, you know, they probably didn't want him to say anything, let it blow over. That's the difference. I would've said that. I was like, yeah, the reason I didn't go, I didn't believe he'd be a good representation of us. That's why I didn't endorse him. Now that's worse. That's worse than him not endorsing you.

Yeah.

Lucky I wasn't Michael Jordan. There'd have been so many heads cut off.

So like, that's a very famous quote, by the way, that he said, like, hey, Republicans wear Nikes. I mean, they all wear Nikes.

Don't hit me with the Democratic thing.

Yeah.

Like they said to me, are you a Black Republican? And I go, I'm part of the Republic, I am Black, and you know Lincoln was a Republican. They said it was a different party then. I said, yeah, I don't like the party we in now either. Like, this party sucks. Like, this whole party thing sucks. It doesn't help us, doesn't move us. And I'm not even political. Like, I usually won't say anything about it. But nothing is working. The Democrat side didn't work, the Republican side's not working. The Republic needs to stand up. Fight the power. Fight the power that be.

Now shifting a little bit from Jordan, I wanna talk about Kobe, 'cause you got to also play with him and win a championship with Kobe. You won championships with Kobe and Jordan. That's like—

It's crazy, right?

Has anyone ever done that? I think you're the only guy in history to win a championship with Jordan and Kobe.

No, Ron Hopper.

Ron Hopper. Oh yeah, yeah, Ron Hopper. And his son is—

And Phil Jackson. Oh, his sons are both—

Yeah, well, Dylan is another level.

Yeah, you know, I, I was friends with his wife, um, the—

His ex-wife.

Yeah, his ex-wife, Ron Hopper's. And she was a basketball player and she was serious. Like, you know, he may, he may have a lot of athletic ability from Ron, But his wife is, well, you know, belt the ass, no question.

Wow, well that makes a lot of sense. Well, I'm betting big on Dylan Harper then.

All right, go.

Yeah, I'm betting big on Dylan Harper. I collect, you know, so. So did Kobe remind you of a young Jordan?

Yeah, so I said to Kobe, I said, So you gonna be the next Michael Jordan, they say, huh? He goes, no, I'm the first Kobe Bryant.

Love it.

And I was like, kid, keep that attitude. But he would, every question was about the past and the '80s. So what was it like against Sidney Moncrief? What was it like against this person, that person? And you gotta realize, Kobe's dad is Jellybean Bryant. Like, he was a baller. He just was on Philadelphia, so it's hard to get on the court. And the blessing was, you know, to raise your family in Italy, make your money, have a great family atmosphere. Taught Kobe 2 languages, then Kobe's wife taught him Spanish, so the kid was 3 languages deep and was 17 years old coming into the NBA. So he had to grow up quickly. You know, and I asked him, I said, man, you getting married? Why you getting married? He said, I do everything young. So good kid, man. I love Kobe. We played one-on-one every day. We would go to TGI Fridays in certain cities. We watched video, VHS tapes that he had. You know, I went to the music studio with him. Never once did we talk about chasing girls or doing drugs. Everything was about that craft. When I got to The Bulls, Dennis was already established with the hair and the way of acting.

He was entirely different, you know, than the Dennis we see now. When I tell you it wasn't a female and it wasn't a male, it was just time. He had been— I got traded, Chuck Daly had been fired. And after we were winning and they wanted to blame the coach, then he went down to Orlando. And guys were thinking they knew better. You know, he just lost. Like, he doesn't do it. Like, his numbers were tired and they talk about him. He really doesn't talk about the Bad Boys. He only talks about being a Bull. But then when he leaves Detroit and he's in San Antonio is when he comes with the blonde hair like Demolition Man when Wesley Snipes had the hair. That's all he did is imitate that and then it became a thing. He used to just get things cut in with the razor on his head, but all these different designs. But then the colors kicked in, and that distinguished him. But he did it, and it was like as a rock and roller.

Who do you think was crazier about winning? Was it Jordan or Kobe?

They had a lot in common. Like, Michael says it, Kobe watched everything and wasn't ashamed to talk to him, or afraid to talk to him, or to match his wits, 'cause he felt he'd put in the time. And he did. Not losing is important. That's an important thing. Not losing. I mean, you know, I've never lost. That one game, the time ran out, but I didn't lose. So I've learned how to do it in a short amount of period of time. And if you have that mentality and that attitude, it works for you. Shaq's birthday was coming around. It was March. And Shaq had this new Rolls-Royce. I said, let's tell the media that we bought the car for Shaq. And Shaq, go along with the fact that we all chipped in to get you this car. And the media ran with it. Like, oh my God. You're the only one we're telling. Channel 7 was all on it. It was all phony.

Why doesn't LeBron like you?

I don't know. I have no idea, but that's cool.

Does LeBron James have a really big ego?

Really big bank account. Think about this. And everybody keeps saying, is LeBron the GOAT or Michael Jordan? LeBron took 5 of his friends and made them multimillionaires. And he made them responsible for the atmosphere and the ecosystem that they all eat off of. And you're gonna go to school to learn that. You're gonna come back and tell me how to do this. Well, let's start with these guys, but then we're gonna get together and start our own business, and we're gonna be us. Once you guys learn how to do it, I won't have to hire anybody else. You tell me another person that thinks that way. No one. He's amazing.

The Bad Boys hated everybody.

Real.

Michael Jordan made every teammate miserable.

No, that's fake.

Dennis Rodman was impossible to coach.

He was easy to coach. That's why he never came off the court. He did his job. And somebody— and, and the other 2 guys that didn't do their job, he was still doing the job.

Shaq didn't work hard enough.

Holly, what?

This isn't in here, but of course I'm a big AI fan. Allen Iverson, did he really just— he was a flake at practices? Like, was he a flake when you play him again? No.

When they were talking about that, they left out the fact that his best friend just had been murdered. And he was like, we in here talking about practice. And I told y'all my best friend had been murdered and y'all are asking me about practice. You're not asking me about my best friend being murdered last night. So that's where the whole thing came from. He was like, we're talking about practice. And what I give you on the court, I now have to take a second to mourn, and you guys are like, no, you don't have time to mourn. You need to be at practice.

Kobe Bryant never turned basketball off.

Hollywood. 'Cause Kobe— I was in the studio with him while he was making music. How he met his wife, Vanessa, was she was a girl at the video shoot. So, no, he— basketball was— he loved basketball, but he loved hip-hop.

LeBron James controls every organization that he works for.

Listen, LeBron James has the IQ, the basketball IQ, the physical ability, the basketball ability to do some amazing things. And he is the child king. It's worth listening to him, especially if you're a coach. If I'm sitting back and I'm in war and I come back and I go, hey, we gotta pull our guys back out, they're destroying us in the infantry, and we'll go around the backside and get 'em. And the general goes, nope, everybody just keeps going forward. The guys who know they don't wanna die is gonna go around the side.

Wow.

It's not that he's controlling them. This is what he does. This is why he's considered the GOAT or one of the GOATs. And this is why he has the most points and he leads in all categories because he is that. So he's not controlling them, but he's the one you have to— when LeBron comes in, you have to coach against LeBron. So, okay, our game plan to this with LeBron. So his name is the first thing mentioned. So he does control other teams by his presence. And if you have him on your team, you better be really good.

The NBA, was it tougher in your era or this era?

It's tougher in my era because we didn't make as much money and we didn't have as much television or media coverage. When we would play against Milwaukee, We would walk across the street to get to the game. So literally put us in a hotel here and you cross the street this way and you cross the street this way with the public to go to play a professional game walking with your sneakers on your bag. Right? No one cared. Now these guys have to have security. They're seeing them and robbing them. They're seeing them and beating them up. Girls are setting them up. But all kinds of things. False accusations across the board. Social media. They got so much going on. But physically, you know, they run 200 miles more now than we did when we played on average for the season. So if you run faster, you get more shots at the basket. So if I run down, I get a good shot and I shoot it, And it goes in and I come back and I run down again, that means I got 4 points in less amount of time. Because remember, the game wins or loses when the time runs out.

So the more times you have, the better chance you are for winning. That's the analytics.

Take personally that, that taught you a super expensive lesson.

Bros over hoes. No.

That's a legit one.

One thing is not everyone's your friend just because they say they are.

Yeah. Are you tight with any of the championships? Like Jordan, you, you're like acquaintances. You never really built like friendships. But there's—

Yeah, I have a friendship with MJ. I'm planning to go to, um, one of his, uh, races in NASCAR. I got into car racing 2007.

Okay, so yeah, he has a NASCAR team.

Yeah, so I was trying to do that when they were acting like they wanted Black people involved. It was Tim Brown from the Raiders, and he was on a— it was, it was a minority, uh, integration But then to prove that they needed it, Michael Jordan sued NASCAR and won on how, you know, how they were dealing with their teams. I think it was a smart thing for them to settle so it can get out of the news. But MJ saying something, this is a shame. 2025, still gotta talk about equality.

It's crazy.

Yeah, man.

You know, what do you think one big mistake is that athletes make after the NBA? 60% of NBA athletes after the show's over go broke.

90% of the stock traders in the '30s jumped out of windows. Going broke could have some psychological problems with it. So they don't teach us You know, I have a program, it's called johnsallyfinancial.com. So check that, John Sally Financial. If you don't know how to spell, Google. And it, it helps you correct your credit, and then it monitors you along with your budget. And then we try to get you to join. And then I've been trying to get Black people to put their dollars together, um, to buy up the neighborhood. There should be no slums. We're in America. And let me tell you, I've been to India. We are not— there's no— and people are going to get mad about this, I don't care. We don't have poor people in America.

I say this all the time, I'm from Egypt and we have real slums there. And when I came, I'm from a third world of a third world.

Yeah.

Okay, so I'm from like a sixth world, which you don't even know what that is unless you went to India.

Yeah, in India. So I, I have a different mentality. And the reason I did that, because I had to learn. I didn't learn in my 40s. My boy Darryl Cohen was at Merrill Lynch at the time, then he was at Morgan, but he literally helped me get my stuff together. But if I didn't have a different career after—

You started prepping for that career young though.

Yeah, I did. But let me tell you, when you get NBA money, it's crazy that the people who are they're allowed to get close to you are snakes. It's like, it's a— you can never get a good one. And so—

So how do these young rookies know who's who? Like, you got all these coaches.

Now we have more media. Isaiah had a great guy. Isaiah guy works with Dan Gilbert.

Right.

And made sure— Wilt Chamberlain had these, these 3 guys who made sure he was okay. You just, you're moving so fast that, you know, you're like this, 1,000. I remember Bill Cosby talked about one time his accountant stole $3 million and he didn't fire him. He said, why? He said, well, you don't know how much you were making because you weren't paying attention to it and I was paying attention to it. So since you don't know how much you were making, what difference did it make that that $3 million wasn't there? there. You wasn't paying attention. And Bill said he learned from that and said, write your own checks. Pay attention to where your money is. I would tell, you know, Michael Milken said invest in the index. Buy property. It's the safest bet. They're not making any more beach or any more— they used to say they're not making any more land and then Dubai happened, but, but usually this is all the earth you're gonna have, so play Monopoly for real.

Now, most, most athletes spend 20 years preparing for basketball and almost no time, no time preparing after it. Somehow you built a second championship. At what point did you realize your second career might become more important than your first?

Oh, I knew, I knew that anyway. I was— I'm the youngest of 4 boys. I always knew the 4th is better. You can only get better. You should only get better at things. If you know better, you should do better.

Is my 4th kid the best then?

Yeah, because hopefully it's the last. But no, it's just, it's, it's just that mentality. If you know better, you should do better. And as you get older and mature, Hopefully you would have gotten out some of the dumbest things that ever happened. I remember I said to my daughter, I said, you make your money, you know, don't go buying cars and jewelry. She goes, it's the first thing I'm gonna do. I'm gonna ball out. I was like, what? She goes, I'm gonna ball out. I said, why? She goes, all this stuff is yours. None of it is mine. And she goes, the way we live, this is all your stuff. I want my own stuff. So— I'm gonna go ball out. And I said, okay. I said, if I was you— she goes, you're not. I'm gonna ball out when I make my money.

Did she get there though? She started making her money?

She's 23. No, she ain't making no money. She's making some money. She's—

I'll get her in the mortgage industry.

Yeah.

I'll help you out.

Good. Thank you. Get me in the mortgage industry with you.

And then I'll help you leverage your brand to make her money.

I'm with that.

I, I got a game plan for you.

Yeah.

Um, and, and, you know, I've actually been extending that offer to, uh, a lot of friends, like, just because we got a playbook for success for people to enter the space, just because of the tech and the marketing and the leads and the roadmap, you know, because a lot that wasn't defined. And last week I was in Michigan, I launched EMC 2.0, the, the reiteration of my company with a complete, like, roadmap to making millions.

EMC.

EMC, that's my company.

EMC Squared?

Well, now it's EMC 2.0, but I like EMC Squared. I could roll with that. We have about 1,000 loan officers.

I got it. You got to put me down, Joey, and don't—

Hey, man, I'm a humble— I'm just— I'm here, your servant. Whatever you need me to do.

I'm so serious. I got—

You want to get into mortgage?

I do not want to. I do not want to.

You want to add that hustle into your row of this?

I think that's the last of the hustles. Because I'm going to do TV, you know, for a while. I'm 62 years old. I know I look 20, 42.

Well, you're biohacking like a mofo.

I am every day.

Yeah, I'm biohacking. Me too. I'm, you know— oh yeah, well, give me your stack. I'll tell you, we'll trade notes.

I'll give you both stacks. These jokes are too easy. But, uh, But, uh, I know she caught herself finally. But seriously, it's, it's, it's left— definitely biohacking. So I did a, uh, I produced, got a producer's credit on a show called Longevity Hackers, and it's on Amazon. And now I'm doing part 2. And it— people go, man, but you know, you ain't enjoying your life and your food. And then I take them to eat. And they go, this is vegan? And I go, yeah. And they go, where? And I've been around since it was Styrofoam and barbecue sauce, when it was not tasty. And everything tastes like Indian food made by the wrong people.

I mean, Egyptians, we've been eating koshari for the whole time vegan.

I loved koshari. I literally, when I was there, the driver pulled over, took me into this joint.

But during Lent, that's what you eat every single day for 70 days.

And I ate it every day too. I loved it. And, uh, huh? Yeah. And we went to— it's so funny, it was like 4 vegan restaurants in, in, in the city.

In Cairo? Yeah. Well, I mean, because a big part of the year is vegan.

Yeah, yeah. Um, do you know the prostitutes are not, um, Egyptian when you get there?

I mean, no, I have no clue actually.

And I don't think they're vegan. They're not vegan at all. But, uh, this is so funny. I was— so they're taking me to all these places, and I said, you know, I haven't seen anybody yet. Like, you guys are not like most countries want to take me to. When I was in Japan, they want to take you to Little Thailand, and I go, no, Little Thailand, got a Little Thailand. Um, so, but they want to take you to all these different places, and In Egypt, it was just— I only wanted to see the things that were ancient. I was so—

Well, that's how everyone is. You don't want to go to the first strip club when you go to Egypt. I mean, no, we don't have any. No, no, no.

How about the, the girl? Every time she told me something, I counteracted her. She goes, John, this is what I do for a living. I go, I know, but I've been reading it since I was 9. And she was like, I've been living here. I was like, yeah, I know, we're going to argue back and forth. But yeah, I loved it. Just always tell you that. That's how I know you. But anyway, back to this. If I could take or get involved with you and then bring what you're doing into the neighborhood and you don't rape the neighborhood—

Listen, I'm just, I'm just the facilitator.

Let me get it out, Joe. Right, it's a facilitator. If we can do that, then— because you know it was a trip when you— there's a Koreatown, there's a Chinatown, There's a Little Armenia, there's, um, there's a Little India, a Little Guyanese, uh, all of these little places. But when it comes to Black people, it's called the hood. I gotta change that. So I wanna change it, and I want it to be called the neighborhood, like Neighborhood Nipsey Hussle said. I want the neighborhood. So I wanna buy the neighborhood that we were redlined in. and fix it up and, and have some respect. No more redlining.

And, you know, you'll call it the estates. That's what I'm saying. The estates.

You can, you can give to the estates or you can go upstate. That's a jail joke. When I was training, we had won the championship in 1989. And, uh, that, that summer Joe was like, hey, you got to meet me in the gym. I was like, what? You know, meet me in the gym. This is the address. This is the gym. Be there at 8 o'clock in the morning, 7 o'clock in the morning. And I was like, okay, can I bring Michael? My boy Michael Christian. He said, yeah. So Michael and I would hang out to 5, drive to the gym and sleep in the car until Joe knocked on the window. Then we would go put on our stuff and train. from 7 to 10, then go to the Palace, lift weights, do sprints, and then steam, sauna, whatever it may be, ice. Joe would put on a suit and go to his office. I said, well, you got an office? He goes, yeah. And it was guys like Mashburn and Birdsong, These guys were figuring out what their afterlife, 'cause you can't play basketball forever. And they were, Vinnie Johnson, my teammate Vinnie Johnson, after 1989, got with a company that was into, I was with a company, 'cause all these companies started coming from the car business.

And Vinnie got with a plastic company and started the Piston Group. And now his company for the past 20 years is $300 million a year.

Wow.

So you have to prepare yourself for what you're going to do next. Just like you set your goals to become an NBA player, set your goals to live. That NBA money is not the money that's going to sustain you.

Yeah, and that's a fact. LeBron's a perfect use case.

Yep.

If every entrepreneur watching, what, what's one championship habit they should steal from sports?

The mentality that teamwork makes the dream work.

Yeah.

That's it.

And I see that a lot with UWM because Matt Ishbia, the owner of the Phoenix Suns.

Yeah.

You know, he won an NCAA championship with Mateen Cleaves.

Yeah, I remember Mateen.

Yeah.

I remember that, yeah.

Now, what's one thing you'll never compromise on again?

My time. I'm not gonna compromise on being places I'm not celebrated or welcome. You're always welcome here, John.

You're always welcome here.

Now, that's good, uh, because the barista is fine.

Yeah, you know, he's still got game.

Let's go.

What's harder, winning championships or figuring out who you are after basketball?

Oh, I knew who I was before basketball.

That's how you're winning championships, baby.

Yeah, man. It's basketball, but I've always been ready to be who I am.

What's the biggest financial mistake you've ever made?

Buying disposable assets.

Like what?

Cars. Like, I had 4 cars one time. We were at Will's house, Will Smith, and Will said, my father wanna talk to you. I said, what?

Will Smith's dad?

Yeah. I said, what's up, Pop? He's passing, so he said, hey, John, Willie tell me you got 4 cars. What you got? I got a '63 T-bird, I got a '68 Lincoln Continental convertible, you know, the one like the president got shot in, but mine is white, red interior, the T-bird. And then I got a Bentley Silver Spur. Um, uh, or not, a Bentley. It might have been, I forgot which one I had. Let me think of it. 1985. And he said, and how many times a year are you on the road? I said, about 150, 200. And he said, out of 365 days? And most of the time you not on the road, you here in the cold, so you can't go nowhere. He said, so you got 4 cars and 1 ass. He said, get rid of the cars, Johnny. He said, they're depreciating assets.

So Will Smith was pretty good with money then? That sounds—

No, he wasn't. He wasn't. He talked about how we all made the mistakes because we're from a place where it's more important to tell the next guy, man, you ain't up on this, and show off what you have. Um, I don't do that. You know, I don't, I don't. I found out a long time ago the smart— we didn't know about billionaires until just a little while ago.

Oh, those are new. Yeah, yeah, millionaires.

Yeah, now people are trying to be trillionaires. There's only companies, right? So we didn't know anything about that. So you got people who, uh, I saw this one guy and he had a And I, I used to do it, you know, drive my big BMW in the city of Detroit when it was all potholes. And why did I have the car? Because in Atlanta you got a parking lot, parking lot, uh, pimping, you know what I'm saying? So I had to get this car to pull up to the club, to be in front of the club, so when I get out the club all the girls can see the car and be like, oh, that's a pretty car, and all the guys can be envious and I can and walk around like, look at me. Stephon Marbury got robbed in his Bentley at the light in New Jersey, and he playing for the team and they didn't care. They followed him, they robbed him. Uh, Jalen Rose, they shot up his car in Westwood. You know, you up there trying to show off, it makes no sense. You wanna drive a Rolls-Royce, move to Dubai or go to Palm Springs.

What does being rich fail?

Rich lives around the corner, wealth is forever.

Facts. When did ownership become more important to you than fame?

When I stopped being addicted to fame. That was an unbelievable drug. Fame is an unbelievable drug. And when you're chasing it and you're worried about the way— I used to worry about how I was perceived until I learned what other people think about me is none of my business.

And it really doesn't matter. Nobody cares.

That's their thought process. It doesn't change who I am.

If you lost everything tomorrow, what's the business that you'd build?

Bank robberies. This ain't no bank robbery. Um, I would definitely, uh, delve into the AI Craze right now.

Okay. Now, um, if you could spend 5 minutes with, with your 25-year-old self, the 25-year-old John Salley, what would you tell him?

More pull-ups. More pull-ups. More pull-ups.

Can you do pull-ups now?

I, I can get about 4.

Dead hang?

Dead hang, dead hang, 3. More pull-ups.

Why more pull-ups?

Because that muscle— I would do more pull-ups, more squats, and I would—

Those are my favorite exercises, pull-ups, squats.

Yeah.

That's all I do with my trainer, and deadlifts.

Yeah. So deadlifts, and I was really good at it, but I have such a long body. And I would buy— I would get land. So I had a chance to get this 60 acres with a lake on it. And I didn't— I just thought this guy was a car— he was a car dealer. I thought he was trying to get over. I didn't have any guidance with that. Instead, it was a $65,000 townhouse walk-up with a double-stack garage. My black butt went and got the condo because it was close and I can get to anywhere I needed to go. not realizing it, it was $60,000 for 60 acres.

Damn.

You feel me? And I was like—

But you took the condo that you pay in HOA.

I took the condo. Wait, this is the trick. I rented the condo and I gave him $6,500, which would have been my down payment for my land. And I was more caught up with that as opposed to, I'm gonna buy 60 acres, I'm gonna take this 10 acres or 5 acres and put my mom here. I'm gonna build this with my— I could have built a compound and built my own food and had my own ecosystem. Yeah, at 25, at 22, and I should have done that. I also had 20 acres in Malibu for $40,000 that I didn't buy.

Now, we like to end the show with a game.

Yeah.

Now this game is called Champion or Chump. So demanding a trade while you're still under contract, champion or chump?

Champion.

Calling out a teammate or airing locker room problems publicly, champion or chump?

Chump.

College athletes earning money through NIL deals?

Champion.

Building your personal brand while you're still playing?

Champion.

Taking less money to join a championship contender. Oh, that's a sticky one.

You said contender.

Okay.

They're all contenders. That was a trick. Pass.

Next question. We're trying to make good terms here. Letting friends or family manage your money.

If they're qualified, that's fine.

So champion. Changing your career plans to play alongside your son. Man, these questions are really geared towards somebody.

I would, yes, that's a champion.

I'd love to play with my son.

You know what they didn't realize? Barry Bonds' father was a great player. Ken Griffey Jr., to the point where more people are talking about Ken Griffey Jr. than talk about his dad. You know what I'm saying? So those guys did it in baseball and I don't see where the problem is.

Ken Griffey, you played with Ken Griffey Jr.?

Yep. I was ready for that question. That's why I know it.

Starting a business before your playing career ends.

100% champion.

That's right. Turning down millions to protect your health, your family, or peace of mind.

Why would you need to turn down millions? Like, who's threatening you? Call the cops. Snitches get stitches.

Retiring before you're financially prepared.

Don't do that.

Chump. Bonus question: you can steal one quality— if you can steal one quality from any teammate you ever, you ever had, What quality are you taking?

Athletically?

And why? Any quality. I mean, you got charisma and like a mofo.

Yeah, I mean, they're taking that from you. So that makes you be stealing something from me.

Yeah.

I would say Joe Dumars and his ability to be so powerful and yet so quiet.

What do you mean by powerful?

Joe Dumars had to play against Michael Jordan and no one said, no one thought the negative. Michael respected him beyond. Joe Dumars was the MVP of 1989 championship. He was like, I'm going to Disney World. Quiet, understated, consistent, like dependable, but yet quiet. Didn't need to speak a lot.

Now you're, you're having dinner tonight with 3 former teammates. Who are you inviting? Who's paying?

We— if Shaq is there, Shaq's paying.

Yeah.

Sometime even if Shaq's not there, Shaq is paying. I would, uh, 3 former teammates. I've had it. That was with me, George Blaha, who was our color commentator, Rick Mahorn, and Isaiah Thomas. We were in Atlanta 2 years ago, 2 or 3 years ago, having a quick little get-together. I like my ex-teammates. I'm still the youngest and they still talk to me like I'm a rookie. I still love it.

John, you've been an absolute pleasure to have on the show.

I know, right?

I mean, you You— this was an insightful show, an entertaining show for me, an absolute blessing to have. I hope you hit every one of your goals, continue to crush it, and we're gonna do some business, brother.

Okay, y'all heard it right here.

Anything you want to plug in?

Jokes, too easy. Thank you. You're like laying them up. I should have had you passing me the ball. Um, I want you to go to The BETTA, B-E-T-T-A, Life Institute. And, um, make sure you check out Vibemedx, that's V-I-B-E-M-E-D-X, to get your shilajit. Um, John Sally Financial, you know, it's not even for you, we got a great foundation for youth financial literacy. And I got this One piece called, uh, His, uh, His Love Is Amazing. This is a charity I work with out of, um, Louisiana with Apostle Scott, and that's where I'm putting most of my effort now anyway, into philanthropy.

That's what it's about.

Yeah, man.

Doing God's work.

Yes, sir.

Yes, sir.

All right.

All right. John Salley. Thanks for tuning in, guys.

Fingers.