Transcript of Mike Hollis: The Case Against Long-Term Goals, Frequent Pivots, and Being a Yes-Man | E14

Football and kicking was so incredibly passionate for me because of the level of success I had with it, plus the fact that I wasn't a great athlete or big or strong or freakishly athletic.

You were athletic.

Well, I—

At 5'8 and £180, nobody thought my next guest could play in the NFL. His own head coach didn't think someone his size belonged on the roster.

Even as a kid growing up in high school, I was always the little shrimp on the teams.

Mike Hollis went from community college to Division I AA school to signing as an undrafted free agent with the expansion Jacksonville Jaguars in their very first season.

I just didn't take no for an answer because I knew what I could do to a football. I could kick it pretty well. The biggest problem I had was the fact that I wasn't really prepared to know what I wanted to do after my football career.

After 9 years in the NFL, he built ProForm Kicking Academy into a nationwide coaching business, became a managing partner in a meal prep software company, and founded Zealous Wellness, a health and wellness platform.

In 2022, nearly 20 years after retiring, you signed with the Jacksonville Sharks at age 49. What made you do that and what did it take teach you about the competitive drive that never goes away.

Yeah. Mike Hollis, welcome to Business MVP.

Well, thank you.

So, Mike, at every level, high school, college, the pros, someone told you that you were too small. Tom Coughlin couldn't believe a guy your size could kick the ball that far.

What was it like having to prove yourself over and over again?

It just became part of the nature. I mean, I, even as a kid growing up in, in high school and, and, and so forth, I was always the little shrimp, you know, on the, on the teams and, You know, I made— I got made fun of a little bit, but I was a team player, so I went along with it and made fun of the big guys too in any way I could, just to kind of play around and be on their level. But it was very challenging because of the fact is I knew what I could do to a football. I could kick it pretty well. And as a kicker, you— the size really doesn't matter with regards to like, I don't have— I'm not like a receiver. I have to be tall and catch a ball or anything like that. And I'm kicking a football. I'm using my feet. So. That's the thing with me. I just didn't take no for an answer because I knew that, I knew what my abilities were. And I just, you know, it fueled the fire. It made me try harder, you know, to prove people wrong.

Honestly, that was really my goal is to really, you know, be as good as I could be. But in the, in the, in the, in the, in the second half of that would be to prove people wrong that, that I, I was good enough to play.

You had a 59-yard field goal, I think preseason. That was, you've called probably the most important kick of your life. Your roster spot was on the line. Walk me through that moment.

Well, that, yeah, that was a pivotal moment for me because of the fact that I had missed a couple field goals prior to that, and even one in that specific game. And we, it was a, it was a, we had a, what it would've been a 50, a 54-yard field goal, but we had a delay of game. So I was thinking, well, I'm out there—

So they gave you an extra 5.

Yeah. I'm out there about to kick a field goal. We get a delay of game, and I'm thinking I might walk off and Brian Barker might punt, but we were at the end of the half. So I thought, well, okay, I think I'm going to stay on. And so now it's like, okay, this is, this is a make or break moment for me. And I happened to hit it really clean and made it. And so that, from that point on, I just, it boosted a lot of confidence in me. And, and I proved, you know, the coaches I could do, you know, something as cool as that back then. Now they're kicking 60-yarders like no problem. So, you know, it just, it was a cool experience. It was, it was something that really opened my eyes and, you know, to my full potential. And I believe the coaches trusted me even Yeah, that's awesome.

So you went from community college to the University of Idaho to learning from Pro Bowl kicker John Carney during a preseason with the Chargers. So what did each stop build in you that the previous one didn't?

Well, you know, when I went to, I went to junior college because I didn't have any opportunity for any university. They all wanted me to be, you know, the, the ones that I at least talked to said, well, we gotta kicker, we're okay. We don't have scholarship money. You can walk on and, you know, be benched for the couple years. And of course I, I wanna play. I don't wanna sit on the bench for, for 2 years. for a couple years. So that was a challenge. Then after junior college, I was right back in the same boat as coming out of high school. No colleges were still interested in me, even though I was pretty good at junior college level. And then finally, John L. Smith from University of Idaho stepped up and offered me an opportunity to earn a scholarship if I beat out the guy that they thought was going to be their guy. And so I took that opportunity to do that. So it was really challenging. And again, it just— I want to again prove people wrong that, you know, and I was, you know, Idaho was a Division I AA, so it wasn't like the pinnacle of college football, clearly.

But it gave me an opportunity to kind of like slowly get into it as far as, you know, starting at junior college, then in I AA FCS, essentially. And then the NFL, that was a huge jump. And I learned a lot from John Carney. He was such a great guy, very, very good professional, we'll say. Showed me the ropes, kind of, you know, it was just, I'm a very friendly person. I don't have any enemies. So I just, you know, I just had an opportunity to learn from a legend in John Carney and some of the other guys. Dave and Ben. Ben was a snapper for the first, first time ever. I think the NFL had hired just a snapper. And then also Darren Bennett, who was an Australian Rules football player for many years, for 13 years before he came over to the United States to play for the Chargers as a rookie at the age of 30.

Wow.

So I learned a lot of things from, from Darren as well. And it was just a super, super cool experience. I knew I was going to get cut. I knew it was a camp leg, but hey, I'm just fresh out of college at 1AA school. It was an honor. It really was.

I mean, but you're also painting this picture of something that, you know, if you want something bad enough, and you're willing to, you know, put everything in and prove everybody wrong, like, you know, you might actually succeed. So, it's pretty cool. So, on the opposite side of that, though, what was your biggest failure as an athlete? And how did that shape how you handle failure in business?

Whoa. My biggest failure as an athlete? I have to think about that one, honestly. I maybe kind of missed a game-winning kick. I mean, that, I mean, that's a failure, but it's an important failure. But you learn from them and you move on. But I honestly can't pick out one specific area of my life where I felt like it was a huge failure. Um, I've always, I look at goals a different way than most people. Um, I'm not a huge long-term goal setter.

Okay.

Maybe in the back of my mind, I have an idea of where I want to be, but I don't get too specific with long-term goals. Matter of fact, I don't even really focus on long-term goals. I focus on daily goals because if you do the daily goals right, Every, each and every day, you know, and it, and I always tell my, I tell my kids this in my, my, my academy. It's like, listen, if, if you can look yourself in the mirror at the end of every day and tell yourself that you did the best you could under any circumstances you were given that day, then you've not failed. You've, you've, you've done just exactly what you want to do. Now, if you lie to yourself and say, oh, I did good, and in the back of your mind thinking, well, maybe I didn't do as good as I could have, and maybe you can say, well, I didn't reach my goal that day, but I was a, a very sectional sort of goal setter. I just wanted just certain pieces and parts of my life to be, you know, minimized as far as long term.

I wanted to, you know, stay short term, take it day by day, kick by kick, we'll say. Tom Coughlin was kind of the same way. When I fast forward to the Jaguars, he was very, you know, game by game, you know, quarter by quarter. He broke our season down into 4 quarters.

Yeah.

That kind of thing. So, you know, you take them baby steps, you just take them by pieces. And then in the ultimate long-term goal, when that happens to pop up one day, like, yeah, I made it in the NFL. Well, you remember all those short daily goals that I made? Well, the accumulation of all those that I succeeded in got me here.

Yeah. I mean, that's good business advice too. So, I love that. So, when your career ended after your 3rd back surgery, you moved back to Jacksonville thinking your name as the Jaguars kicker for 7 years would open doors. And you've been pretty honest and open about this, that it didn't. So, what happened?

Well, you know, I just, I, I saw other teammates of mine, you know, coming back from, from retiring and, you know, moving to Jacksonville. And I saw things, you know, people get on TV and they get, you know, reporters and they kind of do, you know, some things that they're kind of, you know, and again, my, The biggest problem I had was the fact that I wasn't really prepared to know what I wanted to do after my football career. That's a big thing that a lot of guys these days still struggle with.

Yeah.

But NFL teams are doing a better job of that. But I just figured that at least knowing a lot of people here, I love the area, I love the city, I love the community, I love the weather, even though it is 3,000 miles away from my hometown of Spokane, Washington. It's still, you know, my parents all the time, I talk with them. My mom always says this to me. She's like, I wish you guys lived a little closer. I'm like, I know, Mom. But, you know, it was just an opportunity I thought that would be good for me, you know, in the post-retirement, you know, and again, going back to my point, I didn't know what I wanted to do. So I was like, well, I think there might be some opportunities there. Now, because I didn't know what I wanted to do, I didn't really seek a lot of opportunities. I kind of, it took me a long time to find a new passion, we'll say.

Yeah.

But football and kicking was so incredibly passionate for me because of the level of success I had with it, plus the fact that I wasn't a great athlete or big or strong or freakishly athletic, right? So, you know, I did things that— You're athletic. Well, I was athletic in the kicking motion. When it comes to— I was very— I'm very clumsy, to be honest with you. I'm not incredibly athletic. But in the long term, really, it just— it was a matter of me trying to figure out what a new passion might be. And, you know, part of my football career was, You know, obviously kicking is one of them. So I started my kicking academy a few years after, because I didn't know if I really wanted to do that. So I got involved with some, I had a couple friends that were, you know, getting me involved in, in, in investing and, and, um, hedge funds, which I was a little leery about. I'm like, I don't really know much about investing. And I started to study for the Series 7 test and I'm like, man, this isn't for me. I, I'm just, I'm not very good mathematically, you know, and whatever, but I just didn't really, it didn't, it didn't, I, I want to find, and I'm, I'm a huge advocate of, of enjoying life.

whether I'm working or not. I, I don't want to be stuck in a cubicle in an office the rest of my life. And I just, I just, that image, and I, I've done it a little bit even after I retired. I got, you know, a friend of mine was the head coach of my, my son's flag football team. He owned a big business. And, and, um, you know, I was looking like, well, he's just in this financial thing, isn't working out. Let me see if I can do here. And even I actually had started my kicking academy at that point, but I wasn't doing great at the beginning of it. And so, um, I tried this, this thing, and then I got into an eBay drop-off store thing and You know, trying to succeed on my own without just thrown in the fire, basically. I didn't know anything about business. I had a friend of mine that kind of partnered with me that helped me out a little bit with the business side of it. And I just learned on the go. And I've always kind of been that way. But my ultimate goal was to just find a passion that, that wasn't work.

It was something I enjoyed doing. I enjoy helping others in any way I possibly can. And so I want to use the things, the skills that I have personally, that will help others because they've helped me. So Kicking Clearly was something I wanted to do, coaching. Um, and then health and wellness. That was a huge deal for me. That was part of my life as a kicker too, even though I didn't do the greatest at it at certain times. But I learned, and the older I got, and I'm trying to maintain my lifestyle as far as my, my, the way I feel, the way I look, and the way I, you know, just on a day, everyday basis. And I don't feel— I'm literally 54 years old now. I don't feel 54. I feel like I'm still in my 20s. Um, great. Sometimes I act like I'm still in my 20s.

Yeah. We need all the secrets. Yeah. I love that. So, that's a lesson most athletes won't talk about openly, that your, you know, your reputation on the field doesn't automatically transfer to the business world. So, what did that teach you about what actually matters in business?

Well, persistence, and, you know, that matters in business. Discipline, being repetitious, trusting the process. You know, once you, you know, as far as kicking is concerned, I have a process that I learned from a, from a coach. Jim Gattano is the guy's name, but He was my kicking coach and still is helping me with pro form kicking. So he's here in Jacksonville. I moved him out of here, out of Spokane, well, actually out of California to move to Jacksonville about 17 years ago. And so he's been here for a while coaching with me. But that was just kind of, you know, the mindset of learning about what it is I wanted to do afterwards and kind of, you know, formulating a business and kind of, again, like I said, I was kind of thrown in the fire. I didn't really know much about business. I learned that eBay drop-off store clearly. And that was a failure too. I think that the model was a little flawed and they don't run those anymore. They just, they didn't work out and so forth. So that was a good decision I made to get out of it, even though I lost a lot of money in it.

But life goes on and we move on and learn from our mistakes, not failures, but mistakes. I never feel like I've ever failed at anything. It's just a, it's just a really a learning opportunity. We all are going to fail at some point. You just got to learn from those.

Yeah.

And get better at them and just learn, learn. Yeah.

So, you built ProForm Kicking Academy into a nationwide business over 15 years. Walk me through how you built it. How do you get clients? How do you scale from one camp to camp, you know, from camp to camp across the country?

Well, I would say nowadays it's worldwide because I do virtual coaching. I've got—

Oh, cool.

Really, COVID kind of sparked that. I think that worked for a lot of business owners that found that, you know, working from home and kind of learning how to reach up, actually, it helped me reach a larger market, really, to be honest with you.

Yeah.

And it's, and it's very effective. I've got guys in South Africa and Croatia and Mexico City and Canada, even though I work with, and all over different parts of the country. But it was a process. Again, I wasn't very in tune with how businesses actually run. And my business model is very simple. I'm very, I'm a very informal type of businessman. Um, I don't even use like Calendly for a schedule. I just like, hey, just text me, let me know what's good for you as far as scheduling is concerned. With all of my clients, you know, parents of my clients. But it really is a matter of, you know, I had the credentials and here's something that I thought running the business from the beginning, I thought, oh man, this is going to be, you know, I don't want to say easy, but I really don't feel like I should really necessarily, I want to really brand myself. But as far as marketing, I've got the credentials. I think my name speaks for itself. Well, that didn't turn out to be exactly how I thought either, because there's been other kicking coaches out there that have a maybe a better reputation than I do as far as being a kicking coach and helping the recruiting side of kickers and things like that.

And that's just something I didn't want to get involved with the recruiting side, because now you're now you're basically an agent for your athletes, and that's another job in itself. And so I think that if you kick well. your actions will speak for themselves. You know, if you kick well, these colleges will find you, and you don't really need to recruit at that point. But so, you know, it's just being persistent, using social media, showing kids, you know, different, you know, kind of cluing them in on some differences between what I coach and what the standard other kicking coaches around the nation coach. And again, I'm very biased.

So differentiating yourself. Yeah.

Yeah. And, you know, yes, I do have the credentials. I'm one of a few coaches around the nation that are actually Have good, solid, quality NFL experience. The majority of the kicking coaches out there in the nation don't, and but there are some of them out there that don't that do a heck of a lot better financially with their with their business than I do. That's all fine and dandy. I don't want to get too extreme with these showcase camps. That's another thing that bothers me a lot is these kicking coaches have have kind of evolved into more of a showcase camp recruiting. You know, so they they they. You know, charge a bunch of money for these kids to come out to these camps only to get charted and, and get ranked. Now—

Got it.

That's really— anybody can do that. Like, that's not very difficult to do. I'm going before that. I'm, I'm, I'm trying to prioritize this whole process of kicking and then recruiting into kicking better. You don't need these recruiting camps if you're kicking well. So if you're kicking well, You don't need to do these showcase camps. Now, there are situations where coaches don't play their kickers a whole lot. They don't kick field goals or whatever. Then in that case, yeah, you would need some sort of help in recruiting because you don't have any video to show these colleges that you can make field goals. So it's just a matter of just kind of understanding what I'm prideful in. I'm prideful in my philosophies, the stuff that I was taught, the technique that we use and the system that we teach and all this stuff because it makes you a better kicker because you're a better kicker after coming to see me and working with me, then your recruiting will help, you know, it will take care of itself ultimately.

Yeah. And I mean, it's important for everyone to know too, like how you scale this was figuring out a way to make this virtual. And that's, that's golden. So that's awesome.

Yeah. The thing with, with virtual though, is, is the fact that, you know, the, the information that I provide is, is valuable in itself, you know, and people think, well, virtually, you know, I just do like, When I started out doing virtuals, it was more like video review and things like that. So we'd schedule a Zoom call and we'd go over the videos that they sent me prior to the meeting, right? And so, you know, of course I want certain angles and this and that, so I can kind of tell them what to do, what they're doing right and wrong on the video. It's not real time on the field, but I've evolved into that now where guys are using these, you know, headphones and using their iPhone doing basically FaceTime live on the field. That's cool. So they carry me around and I tell them, hey, put me over here, put me over here. So I can see this angle and that angle, and they're live doing that. So I also have that. Then I have a hybrid of both. So they do a little bit of video review and a little bit of live stuff.

So it's turned out to be really nice, and especially with the live virtuals, it's like I'm there with them anyways.

Right.

There's no difference. Now, the only thing that's different is I can't really physically show them what I'm talking about. I have to kind of explain what I'm talking about. But all the information that I provide for these kids, if they study it and know it, They will know exactly what I'm talking about when I tell them to do a certain thing, or I'll have a certain terminology I'll use. And, oh yeah, I remember what the javelin means now, and I remember what horse polo refers to, and I can get really detailed into it. Don't want to bore you too much though.

No, you're great. I love it. So, just shifting off of ProForm Kicking Academy. So, I also read that you were involved in a software company in the meal prep industry. So, that's a completely different world from kicking football. So, How did that come about, and what did building a tech company teach you?

Well, I was a, I was a, I was a manager, I was a financial partner, we'll say. So, I invested in this company. I got to know the owners of it pretty well. They're, they were actually, Billy was the CEO of the company, was an MMA fighter, believe it or not.

Cool.

But, but very, very smart guy. And he hired a guy that was one of the youngest executives at CSX, which is a big company here locally in Jacksonville. And Very, very incredibly smart coding. He makes websites and he does all kinds of things. He was kind of the brains behind the operation, but it was a meal prep business software, business management software that we developed for meal prep companies. But we have since sold that. So that title of me being the managing partner is no longer— I'm still part of it as far as our— we had a credit card processing company that's still a part of our company. I still have access to that kind of stuff, but I don't really do much with the meal prep company much anymore. Or meal prep software anymore. But then, then Zealous Wellness in the, in the health and wellness industry, I still wanted to maintain, and that's where I'm at now too.

Yeah, so, but that's interesting because it kind of shifted more to like a tech platform for you. So yeah, you became a certified Primal Health Coach, and you know, you've got Zealous Wellness, as you just mentioned, which is a health and wellness platform. So what made you go in that direction, and how are you building that?

Going back to my whole mindset of, of, you know, helping others and wanting to, you know, when I find something, again, if I would go backwards a little a little bit more. I'm a very optimistic kind of person. And so when people will ask me, and we got it a lot back when I played, of course, people would say, hey, could you endorse this product for me? Can you, hey, I'd love to have you as a partner in my business, this and that. We got a lot of things and, and, um, you know, network marketing companies hit me up left and right all over the place. Um, and I joined some of them, but again, you know, if, if I didn't, you know, it was kind of twofold. I felt like, well, I'm, I'm fairly healthy. I don't, I, you know, I exercise all the time. I don't eat terribly, wink wink. I, I have before in the past, which I've, you know, struggled with. Right. And that's another reason why, you know, I've picked up a little bit more of this health certification, as you mentioned, because I wanted to know, you know, what, what, how do I make myself better?

And then when I know how myself gets better, then I can relay that onto others and help them get better. And I, ever since COVID I might be a little political here, but ever since COVID I saw a lot of really weird things happening that I just did not feel good about. Like, nothing made sense to me after, during COVID all the, you know, all these little things. And then Then I started getting involved with like the foods and the processed foods. And then I could say one sentence for you and you'd be like, yeah, I get that now. You go into a grocery store and they have a health food section. What does that make the rest of the store?

Right. Unhealthy.

You know, unhealthy, right? Why isn't the whole store healthy? You know? And so then you think about all the processed foods and things like that that they're making and all the ingredients. You got 50 ingredients. And I saw this thing this morning on Chick-fil-A. Y'all, you know, I'm not bagging Chick-fil-A, but y'all think Chick-fil-A is all great and all. It's a Christian-run company. Oh, they got to be, you know, having—

no, no, no, man.

No, no, no.

It's not great.

It's horrible.

It's delicious, but it's not great.

Yeah. And, you know, as a society, we've become very lazy. And, and I think, um, decision makers at the higher levels understand that. They've actually made food addictive for us. The same people who made cigarettes addictive have been hired by the food corporations. to make foods addictive. And that's a fact.

Okay.

And they don't, they don't care what's in them. You're going to, you're going to pay the money. It's all about the mighty dollar, which upsets me to begin with. I'm, you know, that, that to me is just, it's horrible. You know, our health is, is something they don't care about. That's all about the money.

I mean, I think a lot of people echo that these days, right? People are, our eyes are being opened to it. So definitely.

So I want to, I just want to touch on the fact that, you know, you're kind of, you've been involved or run businesses in different areas, right?

Different industries, whether it's sports, tech, wellness, right? So what's the common thread? What makes a business work regardless of the industry?

Well, I think again, going back to my point about being persistent and, you know, knowledgeable in what you're doing, you know, responsible with commitments that you've made, it can be a little overwhelming at times, but it's almost like a challenge. That's the other thing too. I'll kind of compare the business side to football. I was very challenged in myself because I'm a kicker. It's me against me. I'm not competing against anybody in the game. So I'm very competitive within myself. I want to see how good I can— that was my mentality growing up, and that's what got me to the NFL. I never had an image of me playing in the NFL until maybe my junior year, maybe my senior year of college. I thought, well, I'm— because I was comparing myself to the guys who were playing on Sunday, and I'm like, I'm doing that. So, but my point is that, you know, I wanted to be as best as that my body could, you know, my athletic ability, my, you know, lack of, we'll say, lack of size and lack of strength and all that stuff. I wanted to see how good I could get with kicking because I, first off, found it challenging and fun.

I became very passionate about it because of it was challenging and fun and I wanted to, you know, it was exciting to see results. And then all of that work ended up again going to my little goals I was talking about. You know, you have little goals of just challenge yourself, get better, better every day, every day, every day. Next thing you know, you're waking up in the NFL like, wow, I just made it to the NFL. Um, so using that persistence of, of getting somewhere and, you know, again, that's the, the long-term goal that I kind of had, maybe a, an idea that I might be able to, um, achieve that. And then, you know, now in business, now I have other long-term goals in some sense, you know, mostly it's just kind of hanging onto the financial side of it. And, you know, I'm not, I'm not trying, you know, my kicking academy, yes, it is a for-profit organization, uh, because that's how I make a living now. And then, well, wellness, you know, Zealous Wellness and things like that.

Mm-hmm.

The products within Zealous Wellness, I'll say. But with regards to just understanding the concept of learning and challenging yourself to get better as an athlete to reach the highest level in the world, now I'm in business. Now I want to maintain that same structure. It's still me against me. I'm not competing against, you know, yeah, there's other industries that I'm involved with and other, I'm sorry, other companies in industries I'm involved with, but that's not really the point. I'm just trying to be successful as I can be, help as many people as I can. If I get financially rewarded from that, great, wonderful. Um, but, you know, this is my lifestyle now. This is my way of living now. And again, going back to that point I wanted to make is I don't want to, I don't want to be working, uh, for others to make them rich. I want to be working for myself to make myself, you know, at least somewhat secure.

You're right.

I don't have to be rich. I had money a long time, I had a lot of money a long time ago. Not actually, not what they're getting paid nowadays, but, um, I, I definitely, uh, wanted to maintain, you know, something that will keep me, you know, secure financially and all that. And again, not work. So that's, it's really not work for me. It's just a passion. So I don't really feel like I've ever really had a job. I mean, my job for 9 years at the NFL level was kicking a football, playing a football game. That was my job, right? And so now my job is to, you know, teach people how to be healthy.

Love that. So what's the hardest business decision you've had to make? And then how did your NFL background shape how you handled that?

I think the hardest decision I had to make, which I'm a little, I'm like I said, I'm a very optimistic kind of person. I was making a point earlier, I think I didn't, I got off of it. Well, I'm very optimistic, so I'll say yes to a lot of people. And if things don't work for me, I, I, I, I kind of, you know, like, ah, this didn't work for me. Let's move on. So I think the biggest failure I'll say would be, was when I had to close down the eBay drop-off store. I bought the rights for 5 franchises here locally in Jacksonville. I had opened 2, um, at the time and about 2 years into that, running those 2 businesses, Um, I just didn't see writing on the wall. I saw the writing on the wall. I just didn't see a positive outcome for this. I saw a lot of other stores closing down. Um, but again, I'm very optimistic and I'm kind of stubborn in a way when it comes to being, you know, we can get to a point where we're a little too optimistic and too stubborn.

Yeah.

Uh, to say no. And that's where, you know, I could just have started the conversation off saying like, I'm very optimistic. I'm like the yes man. Yeah, I'll try anything. Well, I'm the yes man in my, in my eBay drop-off store business too. And I, I'm like, I can get this, I can fix this, I can fix this. And it just, I just knew after a while that I just, there was no way out of it and I had to cut my losses. That's a hard thing for any man to do, anyone in general, but for a man who's stubborn and thinks he's got the answers for everything, which I kind of did sometimes, you know, and again, that's part of being optimistic, part of being stubborn. Um, but that was a very difficult decision for me is to, is to cut losses. And move on. And so I think, you know, comparing that to the NFL, I think, man, I didn't want to quit the NFL, but I, you know, I had 4 back surgeries and I thought, well, looking into the future, I'd rather be on my feet and not have to be in a wheelchair by, you know, I'm 60 or whatever.

Because I've seen some of my former teammates have hip replacements and all kinds of bad— one of my center, Dave Weidel, lost the lower part of his left leg to some, you know, rare thing in his ankle. And so So, you know, I saw those kind of things happening, um, not, not back then when I retired, but I just kind of knew that, hey man, I, I want, I want a life. I don't want to continue after my— after all these surgeries and get into major issues afterwards. And, and, you know, just doing it for the love of kicking, love the money, or whatever the case may be. But, um, that was, it was a, it was a, it was a tough thing. So, so with football, I didn't want to quit, and I didn't really have any regrets retiring when I did.

Got it.

The money was great. Don't get me wrong, because again, when we were playing the NFL, like, you know, think, oh, money's, money will be there. It's fine. No, man, I lost a lot of money in eBay drop-off stores. So now I'm kind of like, not back at zero, but like having to dig myself back out. And then I got through it, you know, went through a divorce and lost a lot of money in that. And so now I'm still trying to, you know, I'm still kind of getting back out, you know? So again, it just depends on what your goals are. And again, my ultimate thing is just helping others and making others feel good about themselves because of what maybe I've taught them. Whether it's kicking or, or health and wellness.

Yeah. Love that. So, as a kicker, we haven't talked about this part of it, but as a kicker, you live in a world of extremes, right? You're either the hero or the villain on every play. So, how did that pressure shape how you handle high-stakes moments in business?

Well, I, I, I, again, I'm different. I didn't look at those the way that a lot of people would. Right.

In the back of my mind.

The same. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

In the, in the back of your mind, you, you all, you already know, you know, in, in critical situations, game-winning kicks, things like that, you know, the result, you know, consequence of the next kick you're going to do, whether you're going to win or lose the game. In the back of your mind, you know that it's very obvious, you know, but you have to do the best you can to trick yourself because what happens is you do things differently when you think that the points matter more. You know, yeah, it's a game-winning kick. The points do matter. But ultimately, if you think about the first field goal in the game that you made without any problem, like no nervousness, you know, no big deal. Well, then you fast forward, those 3 points put you in a position To be in an opportunity, have an opportunity to win a game with the next 3 points. Well, the first kick of the game is no different than the one I'm attempting now to win the game. My job is, there's nothing different about my job in those 2 instances. So why would I do anything different? And I think that's what affects a lot of people in everyday life, in business.

When you have some huge decision to make, you overthink it. You think you got to do something different. Well, I think this has got to be this way. This, instead of just being natural, the things you've done 100, a million times, you know, whatever.

Right. Well, it just got you to that spot too. Like you just said. Exactly.

Don't, don't, don't try to reinvent the wheel. You've invented a wheel that works fabulously. Why would you try to do anything different with that wheel if you want to make a cargo— you know, again, bring up what— fill in the blank, whatever you want to talk, explain. But yeah, that's my point, is the fact that you don't want to, you know, you don't want to change things that you've been very successful at doing in the first place.

Yeah. So, I read that you recorded like 11, 12 tackles on special teams, which most kickers don't get in there like that. What is that mentally? Where does that mentally come from, and how does it show up in how you compete in business?

Well, it has a little bit to do with my upbringing, combined with my doubters, my haters.

Proving everyone wrong, but also being a team player, right? Like, that's part of being a team player. Exactly.

Exactly. I was a team player in the locker room. You ask any one of my teammates about me as a kicker in the, in the locker room, what kind of guy I was, Like, dude, he was a football player. He's just like us. And there, there are a lot of kickers like that, but there are a lot of kickers that are not like that. I wanted to be just one of the guys and, and just be a team player. And, um, I actually got credit for 11, but I know— 11 tackles in the NFL, but I know I had a lot more because of holding penalties. I tackled Herschel Walker one time, and you won't ever see that on the stat sheet because there was a holding penalty, right?

Oh God.

So you won't see it on the stat sheet, but I got video of it. I can show you. But again, when you're in those situations, it's more like, you know, going back to my childhood. I'll give you an example in a second. But going back to my childhood, it's just like I was very competitive as a child. And I just, in my nature, I just, I am doing things I don't want to, you know, I want to, I want to, you know, I kind of want to impress the guys. I kind of want to, you know, impress the fans. Like, I want to make a tackle because I want to, you know, show people that I am an athlete, that I That I, I'm part of a team. I'm, I'm one of the 11 guys on the kickoff cover team. So my job at that point, when the guy's running past all the other, you know, through the big hole that they've generated, and I always see all this, this freight train running at me like Herschel Walker, like, uh-oh, you don't really have time to think about it. You just react. Right. And so Tamarick Vanover was a guy that, that returned kickoffs for the, for the Chiefs one year, many years actually.

And a big, big tall guy, just a massive dude. I tackled him actually twice. But one of the tackles I got on him, and this is weird for all the people listening to hear as far as like, you know, what goes through the mind of a kicker when he's making a tackle. I'll tell you what goes through the mind.

Please do.

My upbringing, we've grown up really, we played football in the front yard a lot and I was making these, you know, I was a small guy, so I didn't like, I'm not trying to hit anybody and knock them down. I'm trying to take their feet out from them. Right. And so I had a lot of people were running around trying to jump over me while I would reach out and grab their foot in the middle of of their hurdle, their stride, and stop their foot from going anywhere, clearly they're going to fall on their face, right? Well, Tamarick Vanover's running, and sure enough, he kind of juked me a little bit this way. I went a little bit that way, and he went back this way. I went a little bit this way, reached out with my right arm, and the second that my hand cupped the top of his shoe, his foot, his ankle, immediately an image in my mind of my past as a kid growing up doing that same exact thing. And I would actually flip the guys. I'd grab them and they go, And they would kind of flip, right? I did that to, um, um, Heisman Trophy winner, uh, Desmond Howard one time too in a game.

He was playing for the Raiders. But that was the thing. The second I hit his ankle, I'm like, wow, that was interesting. I just remembered me tackling my best, my best buddy next door, Mike Siegfried, in the front yard.

Yeah.

So, so weird.

I love that. So how does that show up in how you compete in business?

Huh? Well, I mean, my, my life experiences really kind of, and again, I was, I'm more of kind of, um, I learn as I go kind of thing. I want to be a jack of all trades. I don't want to overwhelm myself with too many things, but I want to know a little bit about a lot of things. And that's just my mindset. And I, so I do, I do think about things that I've learned in my past, like just this whole time of my life growing up, 54 years on this earth, just kind of things that I've experienced in real life. And the saying is true, like your elders, they, they, you know, ask them what, what was it like then? What did you do then? How did you react then?

Mm-hmm.

They give you great advice because they've been through that 80, 90 years of their life, right? And so I would be very intuitive to, to asking people who have the experience and learning from them. Again, if I want to learn something from successful people, I'm going to ask questions. And again, as a man, you think, well, I'm— I got this figured out, I can figure it out on my own. Well, me figuring out things on my own was literally asking questions from successful people.

Love that. So what habit or principle from your athletic career do you think every entrepreneur, athlete or not, should adopt immediately?

Consistency. The unwilling— the willingness to keep going on days that you don't. Watch any Tom Brady video. Watch any Tom Brady inspirational video. He will get you going because, you know, embrace the suck, you know? And that's— yeah, when I was young in football, I mean, we were in training camp with the Jaguars. We're kicking off at 8 o'clock in the morning. Most guys would be like, oh, and believe me, I've had kickers that come in every year. They had a young guy come in and when they look at the schedule the night before, day before, like, oh man. I'm like, yeah, no big deal. And it bothered them, but it didn't bother me at all. Right? So again, you get to a position where you understand and you learn to adapt this suck, just embrace it. It's going to, life is not easy. But if you dread about everything in life, you'll, you'll never see how far you can go. You'll never be challenged. You'll never challenge yourself if you, if you got that, that oh, oh hum feeling like, oh man, I don't want to do that. Yeah. There are days like, I mean, we don't have sick days in the NFL.

That was another huge thing. I, I had an ulcer. I think I had an ulcer. I think I did. I never really did anything about it. But I, I, at one point I threw up something that was really weird looking like, oh, what is that? And it was, I think, and that at that point in my life, I was very stressed out. Tom Coughlin is a very stressful coach to play for. Because his expectation levels are just off the chart. Like, you got to be perfect every single day. And so it's very, very incredibly stressful. That's one thing that I don't regret, you know, retiring from the NFL to get rid of all that stress. I, for a long time, waking up on Sunday morning, if I woke up in a hotel soon after I retired, and if I went on vacation, woke up, the first thing I think about, if I'm in a hotel, I'm looking around, oh crap, it's game day. You know, I'm thinking it was like a nightmare almost, you know, because it's like I was a nervous wreck on game days. I just learned to kind of just embrace, you know, things that, that a lot, not a lot of people would.

I mean, I work out consistently 5, sometimes 6 days a week, you know, and, and, and, and people need to understand, and this is one of my big things on my wellness channels, my Zealous Wellness podcast I do every Monday night at 5:30. When I talk to people and I explain things, I listen, you know, you, you are, have no idea what you're capable of unless you challenge yourself. You have no idea how smart you can be unless you challenge yourself by learning. You have no idea how fit you can be and how well you could feel if you just challenge yourself in your— obviously your diet and your nutrition and your fitness. If you just apply yourself more than you think you're capable of doing, you will be incredibly surprised. And that's why I tell my kickers too, because the form and the fundamentals that I teach, I know that they think in their mind because I relate it to them as well. I was like, when I was learning this stuff, I was thinking to myself, this isn't going to go anywhere. The ball's not going to go very far. And then later on, after they get really good at it, they'll hit a good ball.

The very first aha moment when they kick that ball, like, whoa, they turn around, look at me with this huge smile on their face. I'm like, there you go. There's your aha moment. That was like that moment of time that you realized all these little weird things that I'm telling you to do that don't feel like it's going to make the ball go anywhere. And now look at that ball. And then the first thing I ask them after they've kicked that first great kick, Say, okay, little Johnny, how much effort did you put into that kick? And they think about it and they're like, I didn't put much effort at all, to be honest with you. And I'm like, see what I'm saying? I've been saying this the whole time. You know, just let the effort kind of happen naturally. You don't have to try to muscle a football. Again, I can bore you with all that stuff, but that's kind of the mindset is like, you just got to simplify the process of everything in life and you, you know, the results come easier. Even though you think, I gotta, this, it's gotta be complicated, right?

No, no, no. I'm a very simple man. I'm, believe me, my lifestyle is incredibly simple, and I love it that way. It's less stressful.

Yeah. No, I think that's good advice. So what's the best piece of advice you were ever given, and do you still follow it?

Yeah. Respect others. Um, I've just been always big on that. Again, that's why I ask questions of successful people. Um, I feel that, um, you know, the advice, you know, in different categories. So for kicking, one of the best pieces of advice I got for kicking Is on game day, don't do anything different. Don't do, don't try harder. Don't, don't, don't think anything. The field is the same length and width and goalposts are the same width and height. And it looks a little different because now there's people in a stadium around it. But in all reality, everything is the same. Don't do anything different. Why would you? In football, that was that, that one of those great pieces of advice I got from Brian Barker, who was the, the punter here at the time in Jacksonville. But, you know, in business, of course, you know, best piece of advice would be just, you know, stay persistent. And trust. That's the biggest thing. You know, stay persistent in the things that you have been doing that have been successful and trust the process. I can say that for kicking and for business in life in general.

Trust what you're doing. As long as you, you know, you understand why the things you're doing, you know, to be successful, you have confidence in the things you're doing and you've seen success from the things that you're doing from others.

Mm-hmm.

All of that wrapped in one thing. Trust. Trust it. Trust the process. Trust yourself. Don't look too far ahead. That's the other thing that hurts a lot of people is they, they kind of try to look into the future. For kicking, I tell kids the first, one of the first things I tell 'em, you cannot care where the ball goes. Well, that's kind of weird. I don't use goalposts when I, when I coach kicking. Hardly ever do I use goalposts because it, if you do, then now they're, kids are trying to make kicks and they won't do a lot of the things I'm telling 'em to do. Got it. And so that, by training without goalposts, trains your mind into learning that the form is actually doing all the work for you. And because you do, at that point when you're kicking a ball, you don't really care subconsciously and instinctually, you kind of care. But when it comes down to the nuts and bolts of it, when you're just doing the pieces and you let the pieces do the work for you, that develops a trust in your process that you're learning. And then when you— and the hard part is really is to take that trust into the games.

When it really matters, you know, because how you, how you gonna not care where the ball goes and trust your form in a game if you've never done it before? Well, I tell kids, listen, you're gonna have to do it one of these days. Pick a game where you guys are up by 20 or 30 points and the coach, you know, you kick the field, uh, you score a touchdown, coach puts you in for the extra point. Try it. Just not care at all. Like, ah, I'm just gonna really trust my lineup and then I'm gonna trust my form. I'm gonna kick the ball. If I miss And that's, I'm, you know, it's gonna suck a little, little bit, but coach might be mad at me, but I'm gonna just try this out. And that's a hard thing for a lot of people to do. I get that. It was hard for me too. But that's the thing is, is if you trust what you're doing with all of your body, heart, and soul, then good things happen.

In 2022, nearly 20 years after retiring, you signed with the Jacksonville Sharks at age 49. What made you do that? And what did it teach you about the competitive drive that never goes away?

Well, it, uh, competitive drive never went away, clearly for me. But yeah, it was, you know, that, that situation, me, it, it, you know, I'll try to make this brief. Um, the, the kicker they had at the time, um, they weren't sure if he was coming back. Now let me tell you, the kicker they had at the time was a, was a former client of mine. I taught Brandon Baer, is the kid's name, Brandon. I was, I worked with him for many years. Now he's playing in the Arena League and I'm thinking, okay, well, if he's not coming back, you know, and And one of the owners of the Sharks knew me. I still know him. His name is Nick Firas. And he had— I reached out to him the year before, maybe 6 months prior to that, about one of my kickers. I wanted to get inside the arena to see what he can do. And I said, oh yeah, and I'll bring my shoes and have some fun too. And he kind of took that as, oh, he's still kicking. And so when he, you know, that somehow we didn't get the kid in or whatever.

So fast forward 6 months later, Nick calls me up and says, hey, were you serious about that text you sent last year or last, you know, 6 months ago or whatever it was? I said, yeah, you know, Sebastian, he's still here. He wants to come in, in the arena league and, you know, give a little workout if he can. He said, no, no, not about him, about you. I said, what about me? He said, well, you said you were going to kick in the arena. Can you still kick? I said, well, yeah, I can. I kick all the time. Sure, I can still kick. He said, would you want to play for the Sharks? Like, you got to be serious. Are you serious? You got to be kidding me, right?

You're like, sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so he said, we don't think Brand is coming back. He's got this other job that he's spent a lot of time with, and he's kind of implied that he may not be coming back. So why don't you come in for training camp, just see what happens? Well, Brandon came back, so I signed a contract. So I come in and compete against a former client of mine. So here I am, is that I'm in a win-win situation. So I'm an old guy, and by that, well, I was 49 when I signed the contract, but when I actually played the game that I played in, I was actually 50. I just turned 50.

That's cool.

So they had actually cut me. It was only 3 days of training camp, really. So, and it gave Brandon the job. Clearly Brandon deserved it. He kicked better than me. I'm like, yes, I'm again, win-win. I'm the old guy that's, you know, trying to compete against one of my clients. He beat me out. Good. He's good because I taught him, right? But then, you know, he kind of had a little struggle and then they finally, they released him and picked up somebody else. So at that point I'm thinking, well, okay, they don't, they don't really need me. I'm good. I don't need to play or whatever. Well, he, you know, 2 or 3 weeks into it got hurt and he's like, wasn't kicking really well, but he's still dealing with an ankle. Here's Nick on the phone. Hey man, our kicker's not doing great. What do you think? Can you come in for at least a game maybe? I'm like, okay. And, you know, part of that really too was kind of a marketing thing for them too, because they— I know that they— oh my God, former NFL kickers coming in to play for the Sharks.

Right.

People were excited about that. Yeah.

Yeah, that was cool too. But then also for me too, with my kicking academy, I wanted to show people that, yeah, my athletic ability went bye-bye a long time ago. My size and strength— my size is still the same, probably smaller, you know, so forth. But But my strength is, you know, obviously not what I was when I was in my 20s, clearly. But my form never left me, and I was still kicking pretty good. You know, I wasn't kicking deuces or anything like that because that's, that's a good 60-yard-something-plus field goal. And that's, that's, you know, tough for a 50-year-old.

Yes.

But I did good enough in the game. I, I felt like I kicked pretty well. You know, I had, I kicked the ball 22 times in that game, and I only could get the one game. I called the coach a couple days after the game and said, my, my body is still like, my whole body is sore. I don't think I can do this. And he said, yeah, I understand. And our guy's okay now. That's, that's good. We'll, you know, we'll just use him again. And thanks for your service.

How fun though. That's a really cool experience. I love that. So what are you working on right now that you're the most excited about?

Well, Zealous Wellness, I've dipped into the peptide therapy industry. And even though there's still some unanswered questions about peptides, I'm on them now. I have seen, again, I'm a very huge advocate of what works for me. Now, I know things don't work for everybody, but these peptides are natural. They're recurring in our body anyways. They're just natural peptides our bodies create anyways. We just give them a little bit of a boost. And so, what you do is, you know, we do blood work first, and then we have, you know, again, depending on when the blood work, we can see where any deficiencies are in your body. And at that point, we recommend certain peptides for any issues that you might be experiencing. Any help you need, maybe it's sleep, maybe it's cognitive, maybe it's weight loss, maybe it's joint repair. All, I mean, peptides, there's hundreds, there's thousands of peptides out there. There's literally for different parts of your different, you know, there's many for different, like the injury prevent, not prevention, but the injury rehab, basically the repair. BPC-157 is one, KB-500 is another And so there's a bunch of them that kind of are in that category, a bunch of them for weight loss.

There's the semaglutide, the, the, the, the apemorelin, the semaglutide. There's, there's retatrutide, which is another one that's really, really popular. I'm on retatrutide right now. And as far as weight loss and healthy weight loss, not like your Ozempics that are taking muscle too.

Right.

Retatrutide does a little bit more. It's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's really considered a GLP-3 because it's got 3 different agonists in it, within it. Agonists is basically just a messenger, and the 3 different ways of messaging a certain thing to help your body. There's the GLP receptor that it hits, there's the GIP receptor that it hits, and then the glucagon receptor that it hits. So, it hits 3 areas of your body that are affected by, you know, that help insulin levels and how the body burns the sugars and fats and all that. And so, you experience a good weight loss. So, that is a big deal for me, these peptides these days. That's what my baby is right now. I spend a lot of time with those. And, and referring people to Legends Health and Wellness is a company that I'm working for. Basically, the lady that founded Legends Health and Wellness is a huge Jaguar fan. That's how I met her originally, when she went to all these events where us former guys, you know, guys that have played in the past, and she was always there supporting us. And I got to know her, Rebecca Morris.

She owns Legends Health and Wellness. She named it Legends Health and Wellness after us NFL legends. She wanted to, and she saw Big John Henderson a bunch of times. Big John Henderson, his health is kind of, he's had some issues recently. He's gotten a lot better since then, but she, she really wants to help the legends out, us, us former players. And that's what she, what she's doing now full-time.

Cool. I love that. So, Mike, last question. Thank you so much for your time today.

What does it mean to you to be a Business MVP?

A Business MVP? You know, anytime I've, I've had success, and again, I go back to that whole concept of helping others. When I am able to help others, I consider myself an MVP, I guess, in business, right? So it's more of just, you know, having that, you know, business for me is not about the finances, about the money that I make. And again, because I, you kind of have figured me out so far, you know, the health industry, the food industry, as far as they're just really greedy and it's all about the money. I'm not that way at all. I want people healthy. Yeah. Money will come. Yeah. I'm a very big advocate of just doing the right thing for people, helping people, and good things will happen. I believe in good karma type of thing. So I'm just, I'm just here on this earth. I believe really honestly in my heart and soul that I've been put on this earth to help people. And it, I get a self-satisfaction for helping people. And the things that I'm doing to help people are things that I've experienced in my own personal life. And so for me, I know it works.

It's not going to work for everybody, but as long as I can make an impact in your life, I feel like my business is a success.

Great. Thank you so much.

Okay. Thank you.

And that's how champions think. Here are the key takeaways from my conversation with Mike today. Don't wait for permission or validation. Prove it and let the results do the talking. In business, nobody cares who you used to be. They care what you can do for them right now. And the competitive drive that made you great at one thing is the same drive that will make you great at the next thing if you're willing If you got value from today's episode, share it with someone who's ready to think bigger, compete harder, and win in business. Make sure you're subscribed so you never miss an episode. And if you haven't, leaving a 5-star review goes a long way in helping us grow and reach more leaders like you. I'm Sami Peterson. Thanks for being part of the Business MVP Community, and I'll see you next time as we continue building you into an MVP in business and life.

Thank you.

in fitness and in life.