Episode 7 of Betrayal season 6, titled The Hero, follows the case against Paul Augustine after Matt Rulsey recorded a four-and-a-half-hour confession in which Paul described spoof calls, false emergency reports, and his motives for targeting Carl. The episode covers how additional charges raised his potential prison exposure, how detectives searched his phone and identified people he allegedly recruited, and an interview with a man who said Paul asked him about a grenade and a gun.
Listeners will hear how the investigation unfolded and how prosecutors argued for a prison sentence, while the social media posts Paul made from bond are presented as his own explanations and are disputed by those involved.
In this episode Andrea Gunning, Carl Bryan
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On the evening of February 21, 2024, Matt Rulsey invited Paul Augustine over for drinks. They didn't know each other well, but Matt had heard about Paul's arrest, and he was curious to hear from Paul himself. He had no idea that night. Paul would tell him everything.
If it was legal to, like, shove glass into, like, you know, his boyfriend's eyes or something, or paralyze him from, like, the waist down, like, I would do it.
Paul confessed. The spoof calls, the doctor texts, the tow trucks, and locksmiths. He was behind all of it. Paul even explained why he'd done it.
Because I, like, just wanted Carl to myself.
Little did Paul know, Matt's security cameras recorded the entire evening. Matt had the whole 4-and-a-half-hour confession on video. Watching the tape back the next morning, he was terrified.
He told me he was ruthless several times in that video. If he realized we were recording him, he could just hire somebody to, like, throw something over the fence or do something to our dogs. Like, if he's going to go for anybody, it's going to be us.
And yet, Matt knew what he had to do. The day after Matt's conversation with Paul, a mutual friend connected him with Carl. It was the first time Carl and Matt ever talked.
I told Carl. Paul came over and confessed everything, and it's all recorded.
Matt sent him the full recording, and Carl spent the whole day watching it over and over again.
I could not believe that this was the person I was interacting with just about every day. Like, this is not the person I was friends with. What I was going through was complete hell. And he was joking about it. He was laughing about it.
If I could have kept doing this shit, I would have, like, put Visine in his fucking stir fry.
Wait, what does that do?
It kills you.
This is the real Paul with his mask off, and I'm finally seeing him for the first time.
The video melted away any lingering doubts Carl had. Paul was his stalker, and Carl knew this video could be valuable evidence in the case against Paul. Before he even watched the whole thing, he asked Matt.
We have this active investigation going on. If I get you in touch with a detective, could you please hand it over? And he said, "Yeah, by all means."
The video was about to change everything. And it just so happened the detectives were closing in on some new evidence of their own. Proof of just how far Paul was willing to go.
He was asking me, like, "If I wanted you to kill somebody, how much would you charge?"
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal season 6. Episode 7, "The Hero." At this point, Paul was facing 4 criminal charges, but Carl and Matt wondered, with everything he'd confessed to on tape, were more charges coming. After Matt sent the cops the confession, he and Carl heard nothing. Weeks went by. They constantly checked local arrest records and court dockets, hoping for an update. And then, in mid-March, an update came.
One day I checked CCAP, where you can, like, see people's arrests and charges. And I was like, "Carl, holy shit, have you been on CCAP today?" And I sent him the screenshot, and he was like, "Holy shit," because we didn't know that his charges went from 4 to 20.
Paul was now charged with a total of 13 felonies and 7 misdemeanors for crimes like defamation, identity theft, false reporting of an emergency, and threatening to communicate derogatory information. All told, he now faced up to 63 years and 3 months in prison, in no small part because of the confession tape.
As if, like, the forensic downloads didn't already make the case against him previously. We have his recorded confession.
Seeing all these additional charges, Carl felt something he hadn't felt in a long time: hope.
I'm just like, "Yes, he just dug his own hole." So thank you, Paul.
But the investigation wasn't over. Detective George was still hunting down additional evidence. She'd seen firsthand how calculated Paul could be.
Paul had placed probable cause. He had set up Adam Mejía to take the fall for him. It was devastating to me to realize that I had negatively impacted this man's life based on the evidence that Paul Augustine had carefully laid out.
Detective George and her team wanted to ensure a conviction, so they had to keep digging. When they first arrested Paul, law enforcement had the evidence from the spoofing apps. Now they also had the confession video. The next step was going through every bit of data on Paul's cell phone.
Once you get into someone's phone, it's the goldmine.
That's Detective Nick Morrow.
Especially when all of his stuff is spoofing and it's on the phone, and you're confirming everything and, like, "Yes, this matches with this, this matches with that. It's 100% him. They can't say it's not." You want to make sure everything is as rock solid as possible so they don't have a defense.
There were hundreds of gigabytes of data, and Detective George sifted through all of it.
Going through his download, what really stood out to me was how much time and effort he put into stalking Carl Bryan, Andrew Condon, and setting up Adam Mejía. The phone was used for hours and hours every single day on probably every spoofing app you can think of. I mean, I don't know how he had time to sleep or even work his job.
But as she clicked through text after text, she realized something even more disturbing. You already heard in the last episode that Paul recruited people to help him.
I had a team of sick bitches, so I paid people to do numerous things.
With the phone records, detectives were able to identify just how many people Paul tried to recruit. At a minimum, there were 11. According to Detective George, many of them had something in common.
Paul Augustine's whole thing is manipulating vulnerable people.
Paul enlisted people with mental disabilities, people who were addicted to drugs or in desperate need of money.
They were all individuals that he was able to prey on, offering them money or different favors in exchange for their help.
Let me give you an example. Paul had a coworker at Sam's Club. In the confession video, Paul makes fun of him. And a quick warning: he uses offensive and derogatory language.
My coworker, he was really autistic, so I exploited that. And he was, like, such a burger about it. Like, Asperger. He was a burger.
According to the police report, Paul hung out with this coworker multiple times a week just so he could borrow his phone and use it to harass Carl. I walked through the police report with Carl. Hearing these details, he was disgusted.
It is really sick to think about everything he has ever done. There was always some calculation and some manipulation behind it.
In the fall of 2023, at the height of the harassment, Paul used this coworker's phone to make 8 calls and send 31 texts, including that call to Drew's work, the one where Paul tried to get Drew fired with fake child abuse allegations. Paul paid the coworker for his help.
The detectives wrote, "He no longer wanted to be involved, but Augustine tried to convince him and tried to bribe him by giving him $20 bills here and there and also made one or more Venmo payments to him." It seems like there was a level of financial desperation there.
Right. Yeah, very much transactional, for sure.
I don't know, Paul, but it seems like he feels comfortable wielding that type of power over people. It also seemed like the guy just wanted a friend.
Right.
And connection.
Right.
What seems to be his last message to Paul reads, quote, "I'm going to make this very clear. I don't want to be involved with the spoofing anymore. I'm angry about all of this, how your friendship only felt like it revolved around you using my phone or using me to make calls."
This really resonated with Carl. He knew what it was like to need a friend and to have Paul Augustine show up.
Casting way back to 2013, when I was this newly out, overweight, insecure queer person, Paul was willing to offer that connection when I was very desperate for it myself. It's obviously not beneath him to prey upon those vulnerabilities like that.
He has an MO.
Yeah, true.
Paul used people to help make his crimes happen. Most of them were vulnerable, but not all of them.
I want to talk a little bit about the messages that Paul had with the cop.
About a month before he was arrested, Paul messaged back and forth with a Milwaukee police officer. It's unclear how the two of them met, but it seems like Paul was trying to use sex to convince this officer to help him. Their messages were included in the police report. We've had voice actors read some of them.
Do you have a way to completely read someone's texts with just a phone number or something? I'll be honest. The minute I found out you were a cop, I wanted you to be a dirty, corrupt cop and break the law to help me get revenge on a guy.
Hello, hell. What guy?
Someone I had serious feelings for that picked somebody else over me.
Oh, damn.
But you should help me legally fuck someone over.
Paul then described sexual favors he would repay the cop with.
Very hot. Who screwed you over?
Not the point. Just be corrupt with me as a cop. It's my dream to use the law against someone before I die. Would you bend the rules for me?
What rules?
The law, LOL. Like, false accusations type of shit. Would you, though?
LOL. I actually am in the unit that investigates corruption, so.
After that, the conversation appeared to fizzle out, and there's no indication that the cop agreed to do any of Paul's dirty work. But there's something else. Before this exchange, a news article had revealed this same officer had been a member of the Oath Keepers about 15 years earlier. The Oath Keepers are a far-right anti-government militia. They participated in the January 6 attack on Capitol Hill. They offered protection to a Kentucky court clerk when she refused to issue a marriage license to a same-sex couple.
When Carl found out about the Oath Keepers' connection, he was taken aback.
This is a far-right group who obviously have no love for the LGBT community. For a gay man to weaponize homophobia in a way that would actually benefit his own ends, I mean, frankly, it was bone-chilling.
He was willing to go to any lengths.
Correct.
And then there was the witch. According to the police report, Paul was connected with someone who claimed to be a witch. On November 16, 2023, Paul Venmo'd him $100 with a memo note, "Witchcraft." A month later, he sent a $175 payment with the label, "Revenge." This alone doesn't tell us much, but Paul's texts to the witch paint a darker picture.
Goddamn it. Why did I have you do a love spell when it shouldn't just be a death spell to fucking kill him or make him so sad the boyfriend would kill himself? Hehe. When I see them touch, I want to skin them alive. I just want Andrew arrested or killed. I'd acid attack his face. The whole situation just makes me so obsessively angry to a point where I want to burn people alive in a boiling hot tub or acid attack them.
When I found that out, I was shocked. I was like, "Are you kidding me?" Like, he talks quite frequently about Drew and myself being skinned alive, putting spells on us, like, death spells. Nothing is beneath him if it means getting what he wants.
Paul's texts were graphic, violent even, but in the eyes of the law, he was a non-violent offender. That's why he was released on such a low bail, even after the increased charges. He wasn't seen as a real threat to society. But that was about to change.
He was asking, like, if I if I owned a gun and that if I could, like, kill people.
I'm Melissa Jeltsen, and in my new podcast, What Happened to Her, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled as suicide.
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Silicon Valley is always saying the cliché thing about the way to predict the future is to create it. Well, yeah, it's up to us.
But when you say us, who's us? Is it 400 people that you know in Silicon Valley? Is it me down here in New Orleans? They're brilliant, controversial, and they're already shaping the future. The question is, whose imagination do we want to live in?
This is going to determine the fate of nations and economies and the future of humanity.
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On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Pods, or wherever you get your podcasts. <spk:31> First thing I hate about you all is you is they never actually tell the truth. I'm Dave, and I've been an ass through my life. <spk:32> In October 2021, my brother David was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. A year later, he convinced me to make a podcast with him. This podcast. <spk:33> Okay, so here we go. <spk:32> We didn't know what we were doing, so we just started recording. We discussed cancer. <spk:33> Since 30-ish, I've lost about 10 more pounds.
<spk:32> We fought. <spk:34> That pisses me off. <spk:32> And we talked openly about the fact that David was going to die. <spk:33> I am afraid of being forgotten. <spk:32> My brother David is the story of the last chapter of my brother's life. It's weird and messy and vulnerable, and I'm going to share all of it with you. <spk:33> The constant back-and-forth battle about how do I how do I not just be alive but actually live. <spk:32> Listen to my brother David on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Paul had been caught, and now, in the spring of 2024, a trial was looming. Kenosha County prosecutors were hard at work prepping the case. Assistant District Attorney Tom Binger led the charge. <spk:35> I have never seen anything like this before, and I wanted to seek a punishment that would send a message to anyone else out there that was tempted to use these types of methods, that if you use them in an abusive manner like this, there will be very serious consequences.
Most of Paul's harassment took place remotely, on his phone. But Tom didn't see this as some internet prank. This was a real crime that demanded real punishment. <spk:35> I think our modern definition of violence is changing. With modern technology, there are ways that people can get at us that are far different than what it used to be. You used to have to break in someone's home and hold a knife to their throat, but nowadays you can virtually do that. That's exactly what Paul had done.
Carl, Adam, Drew, he held them all hostage with countless spoof messages, fake calls to dispatch, extortion attempts, even death threats. <spk:35> Maybe under the laws, as they're currently defined, these aren't violent offenses, but I think that they committed violence against numerous people and caused them to fear for their safety, and that is its own form of violence. You have someone who had intimate knowledge of someone's life and used it against them, and you had intimate knowledge of technological advancements that I, frankly, wasn't aware of before this case.
Still, Tom knew it would be a fight to secure a prison sentence. <spk:35> We had someone who had no prior criminal record, and that's a heavy thing in his favor. On top of that, Paul had hired a lawyer, someone who was known in the area for handling high-profile cases. Paul wanted to get out of serving time, and this lawyer was his best chance. Paul's attorney talked to the prosecutor, and he insisted these were minor crimes. No one got hurt, and Paul wasn't the kind of guy who belonged in prison.
<spk:35> I remember him telling me multiple times that his client was and I forget the exact numbers. 5 foot 7, 140 pounds, soaking wet. Something along those lines. It was this tiny little guy was just suffering in the jail, and he wasn't going to live a day in prison, and so it was so tragic that, you know, we were going to talk about sending this person to prison. And I basically just shrugged my shoulders and said, "Well, too bad. I don't care. You don't get to get out of prison by being a certain height or weight.
Your acts are what get you there." And he made decisions here that deserve a lengthy prison time. Both sides spent months prepping their cases. All the while, Paul was out in the world. You see, even after the confession video came to light and Paul got all these new charges, he was allowed to remain out on bond, living near Milwaukee. He tried to return to his normal life, hitting the gay bars, meeting up with friends at local restaurants. But anyone who knew about the case was steering clear of him.
Here is a message Paul sent to one of his former friends.
I suppose you're one of the people who wishes I was dead. People don't want to take the time to talk or understand. They want to see me die. That's cute. I get it. Just sucks. I'm sure that'll be a fun party celebrating my death. I'll leave you alone because I'm not some scary creeper. Whenever you decide to make the right choice and chat with me, I'll be the best friend you'd ever imagine. Until then, I'm not a stalker, so take care.
The friend who received this message didn't respond. Paul was now a social outcast, and he didn't like that one bit. So he turned to social media.
When I get in a funk about my current situation, I remind myself that I'm not paralyzed, broke, or without a family that loves me, and it gets me through the day. Even when people want to see you fail and in some cases actually want to see you die, there's hope. If I'm the new crazy gay in Southeast Wisconsin, this must be a pretty goddamn safe space. That's so funny. All 120 pounds of me are so horrifying. You take your meat with a side of hate, I see.
Par for the course.
He began posting on Facebook multiple times a day. Many of his posts were long paragraphs of text where he minimized his crimes or even tried to make excuses for what he'd done. <spk:36> It seems like he goes on this social media campaign trying to do like, almost like a public relations stunt for himself. He doesn't like being public enemy number one, and he's appealing to people online for sympathy. <spk:37> Right. It was a desperate attempt to establish a narrative and to create this new public persona that he's now being victimized because of a tragic situation.
In his posts, Paul gives a lot of different explanations for why he did what he did, like this one from June 21, 2024.
Maybe a sick part of me also wanted to show I could be the hero. Even though I went about it by being a villain to create an excuse to save the day or battle something together. <spk:36> So I guess he was trying to be your hero. He's not even denying it. <spk:38> To just be so blatant about that on a Facebook post. <spk:39> Mm. <spk:38> Number one is just so insanely implicating, but number two is just like, how do you have the gall?
But there's one explanation Paul gave for his behavior more than any other: autism.
Having Asperger's, I struggle to regulate my emotions more than anyone I know. I just wish that my sensitivity wasn't such a downfall where it literally drives me insane and compels me to do things I'm not proud of in this life. I'm a normal person who just wants love and compassion from people, etc. It's called being on the spectrum and not having the ability to self-regulate when my feelings are stomped on.
On June 18, 2024, Paul posted about autism four times.
Be the autistic one in this situation. Oh, man, your word has less than 1% credibility, even when you're speaking truth. I swear this community really does have an autistic hate problem. They would never even think to ask us why we say the shit we say or do the things we do. No. They would rather lock us up or see us die. Not a zoo animal. Sorry. As much as I'm treated like one, autistic people don't belong in cages as much as it pleasures people to think of me in one.
There is discrimination against many other groups all the time, but autism should be the next one we examine because nobody really cares.
I asked Carl if he'd ever heard Paul talk about having autism. <spk:38> Never once in the 10 years that I knew him did he ever say he had autism. So when I found this out for the first time, I'm like, how is it now all of a sudden this is a thing for you, that you now want to use this as a defense? Because you attacked my uncle for having a mental disability. You spoofed texts of my uncle for the same thing and said that he was an embarrassment, and now you're throwing that up as a defense.
The prosecutor, Tom Binger, read these posts too, and he saw straight through them. <spk:35> I find that argument to be deeply infuriating. My brother is on the autism spectrum. Everybody that I've ever met on the autism spectrum is a genuinely kind, law-abiding, do-the-right-thing type of person to almost default, to suggest that autism contributed to criminal behavior of any kind, I find to be deeply insulting.
The posts were offensive, but to Carl, there was greater cause for alarm. Because while Paul was out on bond, Carl was still getting calls from unknown numbers. <spk:38> I would answer the phone, and it would be silence on the other end, you know, a period of silence for at least 10 seconds, and then yet another hang-up. It wasn't as frequent as it was during the stalking, but it was certainly enough to be concerning as long as he's still out on the streets doing who-knows-what.
I was never going to feel that sense of ease that I needed. Continuing the harassment was a direct violation of Paul's bond conditions. With every call he placed, he risked going back to jail. In true Carl fashion, he documented these calls and turned another spreadsheet over to Detective George. <spk:39> So I wrote more search warrants, and it took quite a while to get that data back. When the records finally came back, she could see there was one spoof calling account that was used to make dozens of calls to Carl.
The account could be traced to a guy in Milwaukee named Joseph. This was someone she hadn't heard of before in her investigation. She needed to figure out the connection. How was this man linked to Paul, and what did he know? In August 2024, she and her partner, Detective Morrow, went out to Milwaukee to meet Joseph. Here is Detective Morrow. <spk:38> When we got there, it was this apartment, not in one of the greatest areas of Milwaukee. <spk:39> Hi, this is bodycam on my phone.
<spk:40> Hi, this is Nick. <spk:41> Hi. <spk:42> Is it okay if we park over there? There's bodycam video of the scene. Joseph led the detectives down a series of winding halls, and then they reached a big, echoey room. <spk:41> Do you want us to close it or? <spk:42> Yeah. <spk:41> I don't know if you have any pets that are going to sneak out. Supposedly, this was where Joseph lived. But I have to say, the room is like nothing I've ever seen in a home before. <spk:38> When we first met him and we walked into this room, I remember thinking, like, all right, I'm on my toes in here.
This is kind of creepy and kind of weird. The only things in there were a few wooden chairs, some camera equipment, and an old grandfather clock. The space was lit by both a chandelier and purple LED lights. The whole thing just felt off. But the detectives kept calm. They made small talk with the hopes of gaining Joseph's trust. <spk:41> What do you do? <spk:42> I'm a photographer. I'm starting my own business. <spk:41> That's awesome. <spk:42> So I'm just I have the backdrops and lights delivering.
<spk:41> That's really cool. <spk:42> Okay. Yeah. So I appreciate you taking time out of your day to meet with us. <spk:42> I kind of figured they would come back and bite me in the ass. <spk:41> Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's not going to bite you in the ass as long as you're honest and just kind of so how do you know Paul? <spk:42> Shit. Where do I start? Like some of the other people Paul recruited, Joseph met Paul at Sam's Club, where they both worked. Joseph was responsible for unloading new shipments, and Paul was a cashier.
They only started hanging out in February 2024. Joseph had no idea that Paul had just gotten out of jail. <spk:42> He hit me up on Grindr, and we were just talking. We would hang out. He always got me food and stuff. We would always hang out. Within minutes, Detective Morrow could tell Joseph fit the profile of Paul's recruits to a T. <spk:38> He seemed to be struggling financially, and I also think that he was lacking friendship from people, so he thought that he could trust Paul as a friend.
<spk:42> He would constantly ask me to use my phone. I'm like, I don't have an issue because. <spk:41> Right. <spk:42> And then I heard him, like, calling on my phone. I'm like, dude, what are you doing? Who are you calling? And he said, oh, I'm just pulling a prank on somebody. I'm like, oh, okay. <spk:43> Do you remember what he did on your phone? <spk:42> All I know is he downloaded some spoofing apps, and that was about it. <spk:43> Do you still have them on there? <spk:42> The phone that I had back then was an iPhone 14. I had to get rid of my iPhone 14 to make ends meet, so I went back to my old phone.
<spk:43> Gotcha. Eventually, Paul told Joseph about his situation. <spk:42> Paul finally told me, like, yeah, I have this court case thing, and the reason why I kept on using your phone was because I'm not allowed to use my phone and all that stuff. So I'm just playing it cool because. <spk:43> Yeah. <spk:42> I don't want him getting upset and yelling at me or anything. Up until this point, the story was nothing new. It sounded a lot like all the other stories detectives had heard of how Paul used vulnerable people to carry out his plan.
But then the interview took a turn. <spk:42> But yeah, he was asking me, like, weird questions too. Like, he brought up your name. Joseph was looking right at Detective George. <spk:42> He didn't tell me, like, who you were. At first, he said, like, hey, do you think you could find out where this person lives? Then he kept on asking me more weird questions, like, do you think you could, like, try to get some dirt on this person or try to blackmail this person? And then Paul asked Joseph a crucial question, the question that would change the trajectory of this entire case.
<spk:42> You have to, like, make a small grenade and put it in a mailbox. And I'm like, I do know how to make stuff like that because you can find out on YouTube, okay? <spk:41> Yep. Who did he want a grenade in their mailbox? <spk:42> It was mainly looking at you. <spk:41> Me? <spk:42> Yeah.
I'm Melissa Jeltsin, and in my new podcast, What Happened to Her, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled as suicide. <spk:43> She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety. Stories of survival. <spk:43> The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck because by all rights, I should be dead. Cases that everyone else called closed. <spk:44> They can't convict her, right?
Like, she has so much evidence. These stories all start in the same place, with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her. <spk:45> No child should ever experience that. And we were babies. <spk:46> She did all of these brave things and came out and spoke about it, and he got a year. <spk:47> You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform. Listen to What Happened to Her on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
<spk:48> If there's a million times more digital intelligence than there is biological intelligence, it's hard to imagine humans being in control in that scenario. <spk:49> I'm Walter Isaacson, host of the new podcast, The Builders. Right now, we're living through an AI arms race, so I want directly to the people shaping that future: Elon Musk, Dario Amodei, Alex Karp, Fei-Fei Li, Palmer Luckey. Because I wanted to understand what the most consequential builders believe, what they fear, and where they think this is all headed.
Silicon Valley is always saying the cliché thing about the way to predict the future is to create it. Well, yeah, it's up to us.
But when you say us, who's us? Is it 400 people that you know in Silicon Valley? Is it me down here in New Orleans?
They're brilliant, controversial, and they're already shaping the future. The question is, whose imagination do we want to live in?
This is going to determine the fate of nations and economies and the future of humanity.
Listen to The Builders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Hamza.
And I'm Martin. And we're the hosts of Out of Character. It's a podcast. I know there's a lot of them going around, but why should you listen to ours?
Well, we're only the best podcast in the entire world.
And we talk about pretty much everything under the sun. For example, music we're listening to, underground music, trending music, drama in music worlds.
Yes. Sometimes we even talk about just everyday mundane situations in our lives, like the cool Uber driver we just had.
Or the food we just ate that was surprisingly delicious. Or we'll talk about the Met Gala and the looks that they wore. Are they awesome? Are they trendy? Come find out.
Because our opinion matters, and so does yours. And this is a place where all of our minds can come together and connect.
So what are you waiting for? Come connect with us. Listen to Out of Character from Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network.
On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Pods, or wherever you get your podcasts.
The first thing I hate about uillages is they never actually tell the truth. I'm Dave, and I've been an ass through my life.
In October 2021, my brother David was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. A year later, he convinced me to make a podcast with him. This podcast.
Okay, so here we go.
We didn't know what we were doing, so we just started recording. We discussed cancer.
Since the radiation, I've lost about 10 more pounds.
We fought.
That pisses me off.
And we talked openly about the fact that David was going to die.
I am afraid of being forgotten.
My brother David is the story of the last chapter of my brother's life. It's weird and messy and vulnerable, and I'm going to share all of it with you.
The constant back-and-forth battle about how do I how do I not just be alive, but actually live.
Listen to my brother David on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In August of 2024, detectives interviewed a man named Joseph who'd helped Paul make spoof calls. The interview started out like all the others in the investigation. But then Joseph made a shocking confession.
Paul had asked him if he knew how to make a grenade and if he could put a grenade in someone's mailbox.
Who did he want a grenade in their mailbox? <spk:42> It was mainly looking at you. Me. <spk:43> Yeah.
Detective Morrow remembers that moment well.
I know for me immediately, without trying to set it off, I'm, like, staring at George, like, what the hell did we just hear right now? I could only imagine what went through her mind. George somehow straight-faced, cool, just still talking with him the whole time. <spk:44> As a law enforcement officer, especially in situations like that, you cannot let the emotional side of your brain activate because it will derail you from what you're doing. Like, when I go home, is there going to be a bomb in my mailbox? So that moment in time, I was just thinking, well, I need to get more information. We just continued to question him and kind of get more details from him.
Did he offer, like, money or anything? <spk:42> The way he offered it is doing favors. He tried to word it carefully, but just as, yeah, if I were to put a bomb in your mailbox, he'd pay me to. Get you. <spk:42> To help pay for my phone bill. I do want to let you know he does know where he lives. He's shown me the address and stuff. Do you remember what the house looked like? <spk:42> I think it was, like, a white house. Do you believe that he really, like, planned on putting a bomb in my mailbox if he could?
<spk:42> I would say that he just had the guts to go through with it. And if he did find somebody that would go through with it, he's going to be in a lot of trouble because there's no way he could pay that guy off. You don't think that he would personally do it. But you think he has the ability to hire somebody to do his dirty work for him? <spk:42> He has the intent to look for people and hire people. Whether he has the resources to do it, probably not. If he had the resources, yes, without a doubt.
This seems like a credible threat. If Paul had the money, there was no telling what could have happened. Hearing this, Detective George had one last question. Before this meeting, she'd pulled some records, and she learned that a few months ago, Joseph had tried to buy a gun. He'd failed the background check, so he never got the weapon. Detective George didn't think much of it at the time. But now, given what she knew about the mail bomb, she saw things in a new light.
So she asked Joseph.
Do you know anything about a gun? <spk:42> Uh, no. Let me think real quick. Yeah, yeah, I don't remember. Yeah, he was asking, like, if I if I owned a gun and that if I could, like, kill people. I just said, like, I don't own a gun. Did you feel like he was asking you, like, do you have a gun so that you could go kill someone for him?
<spk:42> It was going towards that because he was asking me, like, if I wanted you to kill somebody, how much would you charge? I said, probably $200,000. Transfer that all into gold. Mm-hmm. <spk:42> That's a lot of money. He just looked at me like, whatever. But, like, yeah. So it did seem like he was asking me if I could do it. I'm like, yeah and no. It's like. Yeah. Did he, like, indicate who the target would be? <spk:42> No.
It was just open. It's kind of yeah.
Detective Morrow decided to be more direct.
Out of curiosity, and don't take this wrong, did you try and purchase a gun recently? <spk:42> Yes. Why did you, if you don't mind me asking? <spk:42> Uh, because I just wanted to see if I would pass if I could actually get a gun. Okay. <spk:42> And I would prank it a Colt 1911.
This was a key detail. A Colt 1911 sells for a minimum of $800. <spk:44> The answer from a gentleman who said he had sold his cell phone to make ends meet was that, well, I just I just wanted to see if I'd pass the background check. Would a guy who just tried to pawn his phone really pay for an $800 gun? And if not, who would foot that bill?
Yep. Well, good luck to you. <spk:43> Oh, yeah. Take care. Enjoy the stay. <spk:42> Yeah. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
After about an hour, detectives thanked Joseph for all he shared. Then they left the house and got back in the car. <spk:44> Once we sat in the car and we were safe, I think Nick and I looked at each other and we're like, holy fuck, what just happened?
You could tell George was freaked out by it, right? I mean, who wouldn't in that situation? <spk:44> As a rookie officer, you're always told, don't follow the same routine. Take different routes at home. But, you know, over the years, after nearly a decade of doing this, we become comfortable. It was a jarring realization that the reality is sometimes you're not even safe at home.
Joseph had revealed crucial information. Paul had tried to recruit someone to commit acts of violence. He'd failed with Joseph. But what if he met someone who was up for the job? <spk:44> And so we said, well, he can't be free. He needs to get in custody now. Paul had violated the conditions of his bond. Within hours, the detectives secured an arrest warrant, and they teamed up with the police department in the town where Paul lived. <spk:44> We went to his residence.
He was not at home. We checked the area for his car, checked his work as well. And then Nick and I left to go back to our PD to write reports, and the local agency just stayed sitting on the house waiting for him to come home. And then, around 12:45 a.m., Paul showed up. The Wauwatosa PD turned on their sirens.
Driver, turn the vehicle off. Stay in the car. Put your hands up in the air.
The officers at the scene drew their guns.
Just stay right there. Do not reach for anything. Stop reaching in your fucking pocket.
Two cops approached Paul's car. He was sitting on the driver's side with his hands in the air.
Do not make any sudden moves.
If you drop your hands, you get shot. Do you understand me?
Yeah, what's wrong?
Turn around.
Okay, no.
Stand up.
Okay, okay. Okay, no.
Turn around.
Okay.
Do not put your hands.
Okay. Okay, don't hurt me.
Paul was finally in handcuffs.
You were under arrest or not?
For what?
You have a felony warrant for arrest.
Okay. What did I do?
Sit to be in custody. On the next episode of Betrayal.
All right. The court calls State of Wisconsin versus Paul Augustine.
Paul finally goes before a judge.
I promise you from the bottom of my heart, Your Honor, that I understand the full extent of what I caused and the dark cloud that I had over people's lives.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod@gmail.com. That is betrayalpodd@gmail.com. Or follow us on Instagram @BetrayalPod or me @It'sAndreaGunning. To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts.
And don't forget to rate and review. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeartPodcasts. The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Carrie Hartman and Caitlin Golden. Our story editor is Monique LeBord, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our production manager is Kristin Mulciori.
Our associate producer is Leah Jablo. Additional support by Curry Richman and Olivia Hewitt. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krajnchek. Audio editing and voice acting by Tanner Robbins, with additional voice acting by Trey Morgan. Mixing and mastering by Matt DeVecchio. And special thanks to Carl Bryan, Adam Mejia, Matt Rohlsey, and their communities. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by MIB Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
It's all just a joke. What is the value of these women?
I'm Bridget Armstrong, back with season 2 of the podcast Curse of Miss America. We're talking to participants, whistleblowers, and people who say Miss America didn't live up to their promises.
He looks at me and goes, "Huh, you don't look like you suffered an eating disorder."
I never received scholarship money to pay for my student loans.
Maybe this is the meta question for the podcast. What is Miss America at this point?
Listen to The Curse of Miss America on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
How do you know that Claude won't become manipulative?
This is a constant worry.
And you can actually catch the model thinking, I think X is actually true, but I'm going to tell the user why.
I'm Walter Isaacs. On my new podcast, The Builders, I'm going inside the minds of the people shaping our future. Listen to The Builders starting October 13 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Hamza. And I'm Martin. And we're the hosts of Out of Character, the funniest podcast in the entire world.
Rara optateen. The Russian queen.
I like that. It's a good way to promote ourselves. We are two funny guys having fun, enjoying ourselves, and we just know how to have fun, unlike anyone else. If you guys like fun conversations, hot takes. What else? Not too hot. Just kind of lukewarm. Lukewarm takes. Just to get your mind thinking a little bit. Listen to Out of Character on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
In October 2021, my brother David was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. A year later, he convinced me to make a podcast with him. This podcast.
My biggest fear is that I am afraid of being forgotten.
My brother David is the story of the last chapter of my brother's life. It's weird and messy and vulnerable, and I'm going to share all of it with you.
Okay, so here we go.
Listen to my brother David on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.
New evidence reveals just how far Paul was willing to go. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing us at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com. If you are currently in crisis, please reach out to organizations that offer immediate support. We are including a few US-based resources here: 988 Lifeline. If you or someone you know is in crisis or need to talk to someone immediately, please call or text 988 – the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline available 24/7/365. National Domestic Violence Hotline. They offer 24/7 phone and chat support to help you create a personalized safety plan and connect you with local support. For resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org/betrayal. You can also get free, confidential, 24/7 support through RAINN’s National Sexual Assault Hotline. Text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE. Every state has a domestic violence coalition. If you’re looking for help in the US, search the web for your state’s domestic violence coalition. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.