Transcript of Relentless | EP 6 | The Confidante

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.

How do you know that Claude won't become manipulative?

This is a constant worry.

And you can actually catch the model thinking, I think X is actually true, but I'm gonna tell the user Y.

I'm Walter Isaacson. On my new podcast, The Builders, I'm going inside the minds of the people shaping our future. Listen to The Builders starting October 13th on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Hamza.

And I'm Martin.

And we're the hosts of Out of Character, the best podcast in the world. It's really funny and a good time.

Really?

Yeah, yeah. I think statistics just came back and we're one of the funniest 2 guys with mics, and that's pretty hard to beat right now. But it's true, actually.

Why should people listen to us? Tell them.

Well, we're trendy, we're funny, we're topical. You get all your news here. Not, you know, the facts, but maybe our takes on it, um, and everything in between. So listen to Out of Character on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

It's all just a joke. What is the value of these women?

I'm Bridget Armstrong, back with season 2 of the podcast Curse of Miss America. We're talking to participants, whistleblowers, and people who say Miss America didn't live up to their promises.

He looks at me and goes, you don't look like you suffered an eating disorder.

I never received Scholarship money to pay for my student loans.

Maybe this is the meta question for the podcast. What is Miss America at this point?

Listen to The Curse of Miss America on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

There are thousands of podcasts that can tell you how to better yourself. Get Worse with Kyle Pru is not one of those podcasts. So if you're interested in getting thinner, going to therapy, starting peptides, setting boundaries, taking supplements, making your bed, or getting closure, then I would humbly recommend other podcasts. If you're interested in blackmail, love bombing, cloning yourself, or getting revenge, then we've got a little something something for a dastardly individual like you. Listen to Get Worse with Kyle Pru on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Word travels fast within the Wisconsin gay community. Most people are connected by a few degrees of separation. Paul's arrest was big news.

It was obviously very juicy gossip, and people were talking about it because, first of all, it's the gay community. We're gonna talk about stuff like that. And it is just such a crazy, bonkers story.

That's Matt Rolcy. He and Paul were mutuals. They would see each other at bars and like each other's Facebook posts, but they weren't particularly close. So when someone texted Matt a picture of Paul's mugshot, He was a little curious.

I probably reached out to him shortly after I found out. I did want to learn more about it.

Matt messaged Paul asking what was going on. He didn't know what to expect or if Paul could even reply. As far as he knew, Paul might still be in jail. To Matt's surprise, Paul responded. You see, after Paul's arrest, he got out of jail on $5,000 bond. Now, a month later, Paul was out in the world awaiting trial, but he wasn't exactly Mr. Popular. So when Matt invited Paul over to his house, Paul gladly accepted.

I was super shocked when he actually came over and just immediately started telling me everything.

Matt didn't know it at the time, but what Paul was about to tell him would change the course of this entire case.

The thing is, is this is, like, very calculated, very sick. This is like they have either a Lifetime movie or a true crime episode on something like that, one of the two.

It just doesn't— you didn't kill anybody. It's never going to make a podcast.

I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, season 6, episode 6, Relentless. Matt lives on a quiet street in Milwaukee with his husband and their dogs. Instead of asking Paul out for drinks—

I just asked him to come over.

By this point, Paul was pretty much blacklisted. Everyone knew what he'd done, and no one was giving him the time of day except for Matt. So it made sense that Paul wanted to talk. The two of them set a date for a random Wednesday in February.

Hello. How are you doing?

How are you?

Good.

Paul made himself at home. He kicked off his shoes and took off his bomber jacket.

Good to see you. Good to see you.

Come on in.

Matt's 2 French bulldogs ran up and started playing with Paul.

Hello, hello, hello. Would you like some wine? Sure.

Well, what kind of—

Just Pinot Grigio.

They opened the bottle Paul brought. Matt already had chips and salsa out on the kitchen island. It was all very casual. Paul and Matt just stood around in the kitchen. Matt's husband Dave was there too to say hello. They were all sipping drinks, petting the dogs, and then Paul cut to the chase.

Just one thing, and I would, I would tell the same thing to anyone. You have to prove to me you're not recording me.

I don't even know where my phone is.

Good.

I usually have my Apple Watch on, but I don't know where that is.

Positive?

Uh, it's upstairs. I do know where it is. It is upstairs. And my phone is in my office.

Okay.

This was true. Matt didn't have any of his devices on him, but what he did have were home security cameras in every room.

Our security cameras, they're very visible, but I had no reason to think that he would tell me anything at all.

He'd half expected Paul to not want to talk about his case, but within minutes of getting to Matt's house, Paul started talking.

Long story short, I— fine, yeah, I made some mistakes. I did some things I shouldn't have done that were mean and manipulative, whatever you want to call it. And it's not that I'm like— I'm not proud of it. It's just like, you know, I kind of freaked out a little. And, you know, I wasn't gonna say that over Messenger, because there's a narrative that I have to abide by over anything that's typed, okay? Because I'm not pleading guilty, that's for fucking sure.

Matt could not believe what he was hearing.

Once he started spilling the beans, I was shocked.

He could feel the presence of the camera in the corner of the room. Clearly, Paul didn't notice it.

I didn't want him to realize what I was thinking, which was like, oh my God, this is major. He doesn't realize what he's doing right now.

Matt's husband excused himself, and Matt and Paul decided to settle in. They took their snacks and wine into the living room, and they sat down on the couch. Paul faced Matt, unaware of the camera filming behind him.

Hey, can we— can I get it dark in here?

Oh, the light's off. That's too dark.

No, that's perfect. Do you want me to just tell you the whole story? The thing is, is this is like very calculated, very sick. This is like they have either a Lifetime movie or a true crime episode on something like that, one of the two.

It just doesn't— you didn't kill anybody. It's never gonna make Maybe I would have if I would have got away with all this.

But anyway—

Seriously?

Well, no, not literally.

Okay, because that's like extra crazy.

I know, I wouldn't kill anyone.

In the moment, Matt just played along.

The mindset I was in was just like, if he's going to tell me anything, I'm going to have to make him comfortable.

But the whole night, Matt was thinking about the security camera in the corner of the room. Paul took Matt back to the very beginning.

Long story short, I've known Carl since I was 20. When I met Carl, he was super overweight. That was before he got gastric sleeve surgery in 2020.

He got gastric sleeve surgery?

He did. He did a whole transformation.

There was a reason Paul brought up Carl's weight. It was why he'd rejected Carl when they first met.

We were good friends and he liked me, but I wasn't into him like that at the time.

In Paul's mind, Carl was strictly friend-zoned. That was until 10 years later when Carl dropped £150. This was right around the time Paul's boyfriend Corey died and Carl broke up with Adam. The two of them were there for each other, and suddenly Paul started to feel attracted to Carl. In the summer of 2022, they started hooking up. Before long, Paul wanted more.

I was really, like, attracted to him. Like, we started fooling around, went to a couple Cubs games, took a lot of pictures. Then fast forward October, I told him, hey, I have feelings for you. What do you think about taking it to the next level? Like, are you interested in that? What are you looking for? Whatever.

By this point, Carl didn't want to date Paul. He told him he wanted to stay friends.

Obviously, I was, like, sad to hear that, but at the same time, I was like, well, okay, I can't hate you.

It sounds like so far he's been very upfront and honest.

He was. No, and he didn't do anything wrong.

Paul was disappointed but wasn't angry. He said he understood. Then about a month later, something changed.

November 9th of 2022. I remember the date. I get this call from him and he's like, yeah, like, I didn't want to, like, make you feel bad or anything, but, like, I need to get this conversation over with. But, like, I made it official with this other person.

That person was Drew.

I'm really sorry, but you're still, like, my best friend, you know? And then I just was crying like—

Oh yeah, that's true. I mean, when you have a crush on somebody, it is like the worst.

I hate it.

Yeah, no, it's not— it's not easy for anybody.

The thing was, the mistake I made— well, series— but like, I didn't give myself any kind of space or deal with it in a healthy way.

Even though Carl didn't want to date, he was still invested in his friendship with Paul. Which made Paul feel like maybe he still had a chance.

So I was like, I'm gonna sabotage this like you would never believe.

Phase 1 of his plan was keeping Karl busy so he didn't have as much time to see Drew.

I would, like, book up his calendar. And we did a lot of things together throughout November, December, whatever.

But as the months passed, Karl and Drew kept getting closer.

I was just so irritated. And I was like, well, OK, I'm going to, like, do everything I can to get in the way.

That's when Paul initiated phase 2. This plan involved Carl's ex-boyfriend, Adam.

I knew that Adam was in jail. He was nervous for Adam to get out of jail in a couple of months. So this is all going on November, December 2022. And I knew, oh, it's only about 3 more months before Adam Gets out of jail. Oh, he has a crazy ex-boyfriend. He's in the middle of developing a new relationship.

Is he crazy or is he just a menace?

Oh, both a little bit. And I was like, well, okay, this is interesting. I might as well exploit the fact that he's getting out of jail in a couple months and figure out a way to derail this new relationship that Carl's in. And it'll be easy to— because I have like a kind of a crazy memory where I remembered certain like intimate details of their relationship. I knew certain things to say over like text and things like that, and I just like sent some messages where he totally thought Adam was trying to mess with the current relationship.

He mentioned things like the Valentine's Day card Adam sent Carl from jail. The story about Carl and Adam going to White Castle together, or even the infamous baseball hat. These were all things Carl told Paul in the months after his breakup, but the details were so small Carl had forgotten he'd shared them. He could have never guessed that they would become Paul's ammunition.

My whole goal was I wanted to drive the new guy, like, so crazy, but meanwhile I still hung out with them. A lot. And like, I acted totally nice, like sociopathically.

That does sound extra fucked up.

It was, yes. But I was really good at it. I was like, oh, like, you're so sweet, like you're so much nicer than like Adam. And I even hung out with Drew one-on-one plenty of times, and I like could completely like just turn it off and put on the act. And then I started getting to a point where I'd spoof their number, both of their numbers, and I would Call— like, don't— you're gonna judge me. I don't— whatever, I don't care. But like, I would call tow trucks, plumbers, locksmiths. I even called a limo service. But then I called an emergency vet, so a pet ambulance showed up one night. And then—

A pet ambulance?

Whatever you want to call it.

I've never even heard of a dog ambulance. How did you get a dog ambulance?

I just told them to like get them to come out or whatever. But that was just one call, okay?

No, but I'm telling you, I have 3 dogs.

They don't just come.

Let me just get more intense. So I want to tell you, so then I hired 6 people.

Okay, yeah, okay, let's talk about that.

So this is really crazy. So I had a network—

We'll circle back to this.

I had a team of, a team of, of sick bitches. So I paid people to do numerous things over the course of the 8 months, like I started the harassment pretty much right when Drew moved to Kenosha. It was 6 months into the relationship. They wanted to lie to themselves and fucking say that they aren't moving too fast, even though they are. So—

Well, I could give some insight into that.

I have real rage.

Okay, whatever.

Sorry, I, I do. I would like— if I could have kept doing shit, I would have like put Visine in his fucking stir-fry.

Wait, what does that do? Kills you.

Oh.

Yeah.

But how did you know that?

I Googled all that.

Oh my God.

But yeah, but like, because I just want to fucking kill him.

You heard his tone of voice shift when he started to talk about how much he hated Drew.

Mm-hmm.

It is a window to actual genuine hatred.

Yeah. I mean, he was pounding the couch in rage. In between bouts of, like, laughing about it, the way he's talking about this stuff, I, I just felt like he was absolutely out of control. If there's a million times more digital intelligence than there is biological intelligence, it's hard to imagine humans being in control in that scenario.

I'm Walter Isaacson, host of the new podcast The Builders. Right now, we're living through an AI arms race, so I went directly to the people shaping that future— Elon Musk, Dario Hamadeh, Alex Carr, Fei-Fei Li, Palmer Luckey— because I wanted to understand What the most consequential builders believe, what they fear, and where they think this is all headed.

Silicon Valley is always saying the cliché thing about the way to predict the future is to create it. Well, yeah, it's up to us.

But when you say us, who's us? Is it 400 people that you know in Silicon Valley? Is it me down here in New Orleans? They're brilliant, controversial, And they're already shaping the future. The question is, whose imagination do we want to live in?

This is going to determine the fate of nations and economies and the future of humanity.

Listen to The Builders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Melissa Geltzman, and in my new podcast, What Happened to Her, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled a suicide.

She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety.

Stories of survival.

The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck, because by all rights, I should be dead.

Cases that everyone else called closed.

They can't convict her, right? Like, she has so much evidence.

These stories all start in the same place, with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her.

No child should ever experience that, and we were babies.

She did all of these brave things and came out and spoke about it, and he got a year.

You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform.

Listen to what happened to Listen to her on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Hamza.

And I'm Martin.

And we're the hosts of Out of Character. It's a podcast. I know there's a lot of them to listen to these days. How are you gonna get to us? Well, there's a specific reason why you should listen to us.

We are the best podcast in the entire world, I swear.

I know, bold. But why don't we list some of the things we might talk about on a regular episode?

So sometimes we'll talk about I don't know, the Uber driver we just had.

And how nice they were, or if we tipped them or not. Come and find out.

Sometimes we'll talk about that weird news story from last week.

It's the one you're thinking about, trust me. Or maybe we'll talk about music and what's happening in the underground, or drama and music, or TV shows, or the Met Gala and what the actors wore. What we're saying is we're not afraid to talk about everything under the sun. And if you want to see what that's like, come join us.

It's a place where everyone can hang out. Anyone.

Wherever you're from, whatever you're like, you're welcome. Listen to Out of Character from Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

For more than a century, Miss America sold the country a fantasy.

Well, are you ready, ladies? Okay, here we go.

But over the past decade, the crown's been slipping.

They said goodbye to swimsuits, now hello to lawsuits.

I'm Bridget Armstrong. Last season, we took you inside the world of America's Next Top Model. Now I'm back with season 2 of this podcast, Curse of Miss America, investigating the rise, fall, and uncertain future of one of America's most iconic institutions, the Miss America Pageant.

He looks at me and goes, you don't look like you suffered an eating disorder.

She's great, but looks too ethnic.

It's a story the Miss America Organization really doesn't want us to tell. An exploitation of our Miss Americas is treated by the Miss America Organization as an attack on Miss America itself. Listen to The Curse of Miss America on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Matt invited Paul over, curious what Paul might tell him. But as the night went on, it became clear the whole situation with Carl and Paul was so much darker than he'd ever imagined. Paul was obsessed, and there was only one thing getting between him and Carl— Carl's new boyfriend, Drew.

Why are you so mad at this guy?

Because I, like, just wanted Carl to myself.

Okay, but don't be mad at this guy.

I know, but he's so fucking ugly.

You don't have to like him.

No, not because he's ugly, but because of, like, Carl's—

He's ugly and Carl has him.

Fucking retarded decision. So anyways, but I'll go on. So then I hired people.

Paul admitted he'd paid people to help him with the harassment. Remember that call to dispatch? The one where someone pretended to be Carl, saying Drew was hurting the dogs?

I was wondering if I could have a police officer out to my address. My boyfriend was, like, caught hitting my dog.

Paul had recruited someone to make that call. And the date of it was very intentional.

I had someone who I know has a drug problem, and I Venmo'd them money on their anniversary, November 4th of 2023, when they had been dating for a year or whatever, because I was like, I don't want them to have fun. I don't want them to have a good anniversary.

You're jealous, right?

I was like, I want to ruin their day.

How do you know this guy?

Just people I've hooked up with over the years.

Okay.

Oh my God. So, so I—

This is getting classier.

As Paul continued with his story, he opened a fresh bag of chips.

So I called him and I'm like, can you make a false police report for me on a spoof number with a voice changer?

How much did you pay him for that?

Only like $50. Look—

Oh, that's so sad because he probably wanted the drugs, right?

He wanted opiates. But I'm like, say that this is Carl Bryan. My boyfriend Andrew Condon is choking my dogs and hitting my dogs and abusing them, and I want him removed from the property.

This call became a smoking gun in the case against Adam because everyone thought it sounded just like him. Even Carl believed it was him. But the similarity between Adam's voice and the caller's voice, that was a total coincidence.

Also, what I lucked out with was the guy from Appleton that I told you about, the one that made the dogs report it, has like the exact same voice as fucking Adam. On the police report or whatever, it sounded exactly the same as Adam's voice. And Carl was like, that's Adam's voice. So I was like, oh, this is great. Carl totally buys this.

Then Paul brought up an incident from September 2023. When someone called Drew's work and made fake child abuse allegations.

I, um, I have a coworker and he was gay and he flirted with me, but I hung out with him for the sole purpose of like this shit. I had him come over, didn't even fool around with him, didn't do anything, didn't pay him. I had him do a call to Carl's boyfriend Drew, his work, because he works for QuikTrip in Kenosha. His location is right next to a high school, so I had him pose and like use a voice changer and pretend to be a parent. And I just like had him say like all this like crazy stuff like, I'm just worried because one of your employees here, you know, picks up my son after school and leaves in a red car, and this is the license plate, because I knew the license plate. So I had them do that and make a false claim.

This incident tested Carl and Drew's relationship. But as you know, Drew stuck by Carl. They continued reporting incidents to the police and keeping a low profile. Paul was pissed.

I didn't like the fact that they were trying to, like, just be happy boyfriends and get back to their life.

Well, I think that's the root of this whole situation.

Yeah, exactly. But then I was just like, I'll be damned if they're gonna, like, be happy.

The harassment wasn't breaking up Carl and Drew. So Paul decided to up the ante. This is when he started sending extortion messages and eventually messages that made it look like Carl was cheating on Drew. And by the way, in this next section, Paul refers to Drew only as Iowa because that's where Drew's from.

I wanted to paint the picture to Iowa that Carl, the one I have a crush on, is cheating on him. With not only me, but other people too.

So, but then what did that do with your relationship or friendship with Carl?

Oh, it actually got better because Iowa was believing all this stuff that I was doing.

Wait, so how would that make your relationship with Carl better?

Well, because he needed a shoulder to cry on because, you know, Iowa—

But wouldn't he put it together that you fabricated?

No, because he was so brainwashed by that point that it was all Adam because of certain things. that I did in the past and certain, like, connections that I made.

Oh, my God.

So then finally, where I fucked up, okay, and I'll admit I was—

For the very first time in this whole story.

I paid one other person to make another report that Drew was unhinged and intoxicated and had, like, a knife.

My boyfriend Andrew Condon has a knife.

I have walked The police searched and like Drew was like naked in bed in the middle of the night. He had to work early and like I just got satisfaction out of the fact that they like came in and searched Drew and were like, Drew, like we need to come out and search you. And like he was so mad and everything and I was just like, good, I'm ruining their night.

There was a reason Paul chose that particular moment to take things further.

I was mad that they had a good New Year's together.

Mm-hmm.

And I was just like, they don't deserve to be happy.

By this point, Matt and Paul had been talking for an hour. It was like all of this was just everyday gossip to Paul. He laid back on the couch and let one of the dogs curl up in his lap. He smiled and swirled his wine. Then Matt decided to steer the conversation a bit more.

So I, I feel guilty saying this because I've never been to therapy, but are you in therapy?

Yeah.

Okay. Do you have a good therapist?

Yeah. I mean, it's just like talking to you, you know, it's like talking to anyone. I can identify things about myself pretty well. It's just—

Like it feels too strong for you to be able to overcome and do it.

Yeah. And I have a disconnect where when I have like jealousy, I'm kind of sociopathic about it where it's like, it's just like any kind of moral compass or any kind of logic Just sort of goes out the window where it's like, if it was legal to shove glass into, like, his boyfriend's eyes or something or paralyze him from the waist down, I would do it. And I would just be like, hey, Matt, let's get dinner. Let's go to Santino's. What do you want? And maybe not that bad, but, like, you get the point.

On the inside, Matt was stunned, but he kept his cool. He knew that was the only way to keep Paul talking.

I understand it because I know you well, and I don't know you super well, but I get that we're like that part of your brain which seems like if I'm gonna be hurt, other people are gonna be hurt.

You're so right. So you're right, you explain that better than like anyone. Like if someone pisses me off on level 1, I want to punish them on level 6.

Yeah, you don't want to— like your brain's not gonna let that happen at all.

You know, if it was legal, I'd paralyze him.

Would you paralyze him before you put glass in his eyes?

I wouldn't kill him.

You would use the glass in his eyes.

That's the whole point of not killing him.

Yeah, yeah. Maybe say that out loud in a mirror and you'll be like, oh man.

I have to say, you were masterful. It was a delicate dance that you were doing of keeping it casual, holding him to account when you're like, well, I don't feel like that's right.

Like, I'm never really exactly fake with him. That's what was confusing to me too about why he would even tell me, because I've never been particularly nice to him. But then he came in there, he was ready to tell me anyway. It's like he didn't comprehend the serious, serious shit he was in.

I did something wrong. I know.

Right.

No.

And I know that you know that on paper, right?

No, I know it emotionally. Regardless of how I feel. Okay. I realize And I acknowledge that someone doesn't deserve to pay the price just because they rejected me. I understand where that's hurtful.

Thing is, you wanted this guy and you were hurting and like—

And I was relentless because I couldn't accept the reality of his decision.

I mean, Paul, let's say you didn't get caught. How long away was like rising? You know, like how—

That's what my mom said. Okay, but like—

So you told her?

Yeah, but I knew I had to stop. But what I would have done if I wouldn't have been caught, I would have figured out a different way to do it.

Yeah, a better way.

Maybe if the technology thing was over, I would have bought drugs or something and I would have like crushed them up and put them in his car or like done something evil. I would have taken it to every extent I could. Right.

Right.

Because I was reading that last night.

When I said, did your mom know about any of that, like, before you got arrested, or did you just have to tell her the whole fucking thing?

I had to tell her the whole fucking thing.

Like, after the fact?

Yeah.

In the middle of their conversation, as Paul was confessing to serious crimes, he paused to take out his phone. He held out a photo for Matt to see.

This is me and Carl at Michael's wedding.

That's a cute picture.

Then Paul pulled up a photo of Drew.

He's in the middle. Like, look at him. I still look better than he does.

I mean—

I'm not saying I'm perfect, I'm not.

Regardless, why does it— so let's just say this guy was ugly as shit. It doesn't matter what the reason is, you don't have to explain it. He likes that guy.

Sorry.

I'm not blaming you, it's just like, I don't know why you have this like— You have this, like, like, itch to do it.

Sorry.

You're charged with, like, felonies. Like, you didn't need me to comment on how ugly this guy is.

Fine, fine, fine.

It had now been several hours, and Matt was reaching a breaking point. He was finally pushing back on Paul, and Paul took notice.

You're making me feel worse because you're pointing out reality. I made mistakes and—

I get it, but this is like, you're like yo-yoing between like the anger that I can see that you can't control and then giving me lip service of like, I understand this is all fucked up, but then—

But I'm still not over the jealousy.

But then you like yo-yo back.

Yeah.

Being obsessive about like, let me find pictures.

Yeah, because I can still feel both emotions. At the same time.

Yeah, that's true. Like, I believe you know it was wrong, but I also believe you don't care.

I don't.

Right.

But yeah, you want to know why? You want to know why I don't? Because of the fact that I— it's not like I physically injured anyone. I psychologically bullied them, but who really cares? Because everything's so fucking great in his life, because everything's just so Peachy keen in his life. It pisses me off that, oh, someone can just reject you but like have things going well in their life and like be on a mentally good track and have a boyfriend that's mentally fucking healthy and blah blah blah blah blah. It's like, I get really upset and I just get really— no, I'm not happy for you.

Right, like, you don't have to be.

My stepdad said something that really resonated with me. He's like, are you sorry for what you did, or are you sorry that you got caught? I'm sorry that I got caught. I'm not sorry for what I did, and I think you know that.

If there's a million times more digital intelligence than there is biological intelligence, it's hard to imagine humans being in control in that scenario.

I'm Walter Isaacson, host of the new podcast The Builders. Right now, we're living through an AI arms race, so I went directly to the people shaping that arms race. I met the people who are building that future— Elon Musk, Dario Amadei, Alex Karp, Fei-Fei Li, Palmer Luckey— because I wanted to understand what the most consequential builders believe, what they fear, and where they think this is all headed.

Silicon Valley is always saying the cliché thing about the way to predict the future is to create it. Well, yeah, it's up to us.

Who's us? Is it 400 people that you know in Silicon Valley? Is it me down here in New Orleans? They're brilliant, controversial, and they're already shaping the future. The question is, whose imagination do we want to live in?

This is going to determine the fate of nations and economies and the future of humanity.

Listen to The Builders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Melissa Geltzman, and in my new podcast, What Happened to Her? I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled a suicide.

She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety.

Stories of survival.

The only difference between me and her Frankly, it was a little bit of luck because by all rights I should be dead.

Cases that everyone else called closed.

They can't convict her, right? Like, she has so much evidence.

These stories all start in the same place, with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her.

No child should ever experience that, and we were babies.

She did all of these brave things and came out and spoke about it, and he got a year.

You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform.

Listen to What Happened to Her on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Hamza.

And I'm Martin.

And we're the hosts of Out of Character. It's a podcast. I know there's a lot of them going around, but why should you listen to ours?

Well, we're only the best podcast in the entire world.

And we talk about pretty much everything under the sun. For example, music we're listening to, underground music, trending music, drama in music worlds.

Yes, sometimes we even talk about just everyday mundane situations in our lives, like the cool Uber driver we just had.

Or the food we just ate that was surprisingly delicious. Or we'll talk about the Met Gala and the looks that they wore. Are they awesome? Are they trendy? Come find out.

Because our opinion matters, and so does yours. And this is a place where all of our minds can come together and connect.

So what are you waiting for? Come connect with us. Listen to Out of Character from Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network.

On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

For more than a century, Miss America sold the country a fantasy.

Well, are you ready, ladies? Okay, here we go.

But over the past decade, the crown's been slipping.

They said goodbye to swimsuits, now hello to lawsuits.

I'm Bridget Armstrong. Last season, we took you inside the world of America's Next Top Model. Now I'm back with season 2 of this podcast, Curse of Miss America, investigating the rise, fall, and uncertain future of one of America's most iconic institutions, the Miss America Pageant. I never received scholarship money to pay for my student loans.

He looks at me and goes, you don't look like you suffered an eating disorder.

She's great, but looks too ethnic.

It's a story the Miss America Organization really doesn't want us to tell. An exploitation of our Miss Americas is treated by the Miss America Organization as an attack on Miss America itself. Listen to The Curse of Miss America on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

It was now after 10 PM. Paul and Matt had been talking for nearly 3 hours. Matt remained on alert, perched on the edge of the couch. Never taking his eyes off Paul. But Paul made himself comfortable. He was wrapped in a blanket, curled up with Matt's dog. Matt turned the conversation to Paul's legal case.

Let's break it down. The fact of the matter is you're charged with felonies.

Paul had been charged with 3 counts of felony stalking. He also had a misdemeanor charge for making a false statement to police. Those charges meant he could face up to 11 years and 3 months in prison.

The goal is to get them either dropped down to misdemeanors or worst case, if I'm charged with this stuff, that it be a probationary thing.

I'm sure you'll just get probation.

Yeah, exactly.

Really, honestly, probably what you need is probation.

I know what you're saying.

I personally hope it's a long probation.

Thanks.

Well, you clearly need it.

Okay.

Like, what else is gonna stop you?

I mean, no, I'm listening.

And again, I'm sympathizing.

I feel like you're looking down on me.

Well, I am not charged with 3 felonies.

Okay, but you don't have to like— I'm not looking, but like, but you can, and you can tell me from an outsider looking in, Do you think it was horrible what I did? And that's fine if you do, I don't really care. But like, do you think—

Let me answer it this way. If that happened to you, would you think it was horrible?

Yeah, I'd want to kill him, you know? Yeah, I get it.

You would think it's horrible. So why are you asking me if I would think it was horrible?

I was just asking.

Of course it's horrible.

Yeah. You know what I feel the most guilty though? About— now, and I'm being honest, this isn't lip service. What I actually feel really like was the most horrible thing that I did was the fact that I— the phone call about trying to get him in trouble at work was just horrible.

He's referring to something he mentioned earlier, the call to Drew's job when he had someone make fake child abuse allegations to try to get Drew fired.

I still feel bad about it, like, because to me, character-wise, like, I actually feel bad.

Why bad though? Like, what makes you feel bad about that?

Because that's really fucked up, like, to try to get someone fired from their job.

Not the fact that you were trying to terrorize parents that, like, thought maybe their kids could be getting picked up?

I probably went to, like, soccer practice 2 days later and forgot about it. So I don't really care. I don't care.

But I can imagine—

I hate pins anyway. What would you do if like I come over sometime and like I bring like a side dish and like wine and then all of a sudden like I have like in my little like syringe like you see like Visine?

Oh, we all know you're not gonna let us see the syringe, which is also why I'll be pouring the drinks, and also any wine you bring over must be sealed fully. Stop it.

Oh my God. Because you're fucking crazy.

I mean—

What?

As Paul spoke, he kept calmly petting one of Matt's dogs.

Man, can I ever watch the dogs? I won't put Visine in you because you can't break my heart because you're a pup.

I mean, a dog could break your heart.

I don't want you to fall off the couch, honey. No, you're in good care. Oh yes.

He hugged the dog close and nuzzled his face, but suddenly something pulled his focus.

Oh man, where's my phone?

I don't know why. Is that gonna be more evidence?

Evidence.

Yeah, they probably got all they need. They probably had all they needed like before they talked to you.

You're so mean. Oh my God. I mean, you really think I'm like terrible. I can tell you think I'm bad.

Paul.

I know you do.

And look at me when I say this.

Yes.

Paul, anyone would think All that shit you did wasn't good.

At least we're all alive here. There was no Visine. There was no—

And look, that's legitimately positive.

Yeah.

I mean, we were a step away.

Right.

If you didn't catch that, let me repeat it. Paul said they were a step away from Visine being involved. Then he immediately brushed it off as a joke. I asked Matt about this moment. The way that he speaks about Vyzeen, what do you make of that?

It was one of the things that night that made it a lot more serious for me. And like, I don't know if that's something he'd actually do, but he brings it up multiple times and then like laughed about it. That part of the conversation, it was definitely put me on a higher alert and made me feel like, oh, this could be even more serious than all the stuff he was already doing. I was like super scared.

At what point are you like, this person just needs to get out of my house?

For as scared as I was, I realized how valuable this could be for justice, and I was going to let him stay there for as long as he was willing to talk.

But around the 4-hour mark, the night began to wind down.

Either way, Matt, keep this conversation between us.

I mean, what am I gonna say that people don't already think?

Well, no, but this is actually serious because, like, do you— please do not. Keep this between us. Keep the things that I talked to you about my whole case situation between us. Why is it like a thing that you have to like gossip about me?

Someone we know got arrested and it is very juicy, Paul. If somebody you knew got arrested, you wouldn't just not talk about it.

Matt asked Paul if someone asked him what they talked about, what should he say? Paul was prepared.

I have a good answer. So, but, but will you lie though?

If this lie is believable, yeah. It is.

So you've never met Russell, or yeah, you did. You did.

I don't remember him, but who is he?

He's in that job.

How is this Russell person involved in the lie?

Well, because he was one of the people I hired. So you can say that Russell, because he's like into a lot of IT stuff, whatever, and without talking about any of the other stuff I told you or people I hired, without talking about any other details, Just say, according to Paul, Russell spoofed his IP address.

Wait, so am I like implicating someone?

I've already had someone else do that for me.

I don't want to—

Well, yeah, but you know what? You know, but you're not implicating someone.

You said that.

Yeah, you're not doing that. You're not saying you believe me. You could even like joke or you could even like talk shit like you probably will.

Hopefully the jury buys that.

Soon after this, Paul headed home. In the recording, you can see him walking away smiling, as if this were the end of any other casual hang.

We'll get together again soon.

Yeah, Russell, 2 L's, 1 S, better.

Yeah.

Thanks for coming.

Thanks.

Nighty night.

As Paul left, Matt's husband Dave came upstairs. Dave had no idea what had been discussed that night, what details Paul had shared.

I was exhausted. I couldn't tell him.

But Matt didn't need to because they had everything on video. Dave could watch the entire evening back. So when Matt went to bed—

He stayed up all night watching the The entire 4 and a half hours.

And in watching the video, Dave could see that every moment of Matt and Paul's conversation was crystal clear.

We have everything.

On the next episode, the confession tape becomes evidence.

Is this the real Paul with his mask off, and I'm finally seeing him for the first time?

But if you think Paul's crimes are over, you're wrong.

Paul asked him, like, how much would you charge to kill someone? And Joseph said, so I told him, well, it would be $200,000 in gold coin.

If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod@gmail.com. That is betrayalpod@gmail.com, or follow us on Instagram @betrayalpod or me @itsandreagunning. To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal Community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts, and don't forget to rate and review. 5-star reviews go a A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeartPodcasts. The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunnick, written and produced by Kerri Hartman and Caitlin Golden. Our story editor is Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our production manager is Kristen Melchiorri. Our associate producer is Leah Jablow. Additional support by Curry Richmond and Olivia Hewitt. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Krejnczak. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins. Mixing and mastering by Matt Del Vecchio. And special thanks to Carl Bryan, Adam Mejia, Matt Rolsey, and their communities. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Baines.

Music library provided by MIB Music. And for more podcasts from iHeartRadio, How do you know that Claude won't become manipulative?

This is a constant worry.

And you can actually catch the model thinking, I think X is actually true, but I'm gonna tell the user Y.

I'm Walter Isaacson.

I'm Walter Isaacson. On my new podcast, The Builders, I'm going inside the minds of the people shaping our future. Listen to The Builders starting October 13th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Hamza.

And I'm Martin.

And we're the hosts of Out of Character, the funniest podcast in the entire world.

The Russian queen.

I like that.

It's a good way to promote ourselves.

We are 2 funny guys having fun, enjoying ourselves, and we just know how to have fun unlike anyone else.

If you guys like fun conversations, hot takes—

what else?

Not too hot, just kind of lukewarm, lukewarm takes to get your mind thinking a little bit. Listen to Out of Character on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

It's all just a joke. What is the value of these women?

I'm Bridget Armstrong, back with season 2 of the podcast. Curse of Miss America. We're talking to participants, whistleblowers, and people who say Miss America didn't live up to their promises.

He looks at me and goes, you don't look like you suffered an eating disorder.

I never received scholarship money to pay for my student loans.

Maybe this is the meta question for the podcast. What is Miss America at this point?

Listen to The Curse of Miss America on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

There are thousands of podcasts that can tell you how to better yourself. Get Worse with Kyle Pru is not one of those podcasts. So if you're interested in getting thinner, going to therapy, starting peptides, setting boundaries, taking supplements, making your bed, or getting closure, then I would humbly recommend other podcasts. If you're interested in blackmail, love bombing, cloning yourself, or getting revenge, then we've got a little something something for that. Listen to Get Worse with Kyle Pru on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is an iHeartRadio podcast. Guaranteed human.