Transcript of Probable Cause | EP 3 | The Confidante

This is an iHeartRadio podcast, Guaranteed Human.

Lisa, tell them about our new show.

We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me.

I'm Lexi Ioannou. We're 2 best friends, 22 years apart but so close at heart.

And I'm Lisa DiGiulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all.

Now in my 30s, Being the founder of New Shoes, good taste is my business.

Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcast, the true crime comedy podcast all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring on an amazing guest.

Ooh, I scammed them.

What?

I could talk to you for an hour.

You're a generational yapper like me. That's why I had to make yapping a job. And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube. Start listening to Scam Goddess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Scam Goddess.

Hi, this is Kylie Brakeman.

Angela Giuritano.

Jeremy Culhane.

Patrick McDonald.

And we're the hosts of the Artists on Artists on Artists on Artists podcast.

The improvised character comedy podcast where each week a new panel of artists discuss their craft.

Join us for a panel of Eurovision participants.

And we do a little Halloween sometimes.

Does the Pope dress up?

He, he winks on Halloween.

It's right up next to the microphone.

You can—

I hear you can almost hear the eyelashes hit each other.

You never seen Italy so quiet as when the Pope gets up to wink on Halloween.

Listen to Artists on Artists on Artists on Artists every Thursday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Hamza.

And I'm Martin.

And we're the hosts of Out of Character, the best podcast in the world. It's really funny and a good time.

Wait, really?

Yeah, yeah. I think statistics just came back and we're one of the funniest 2 guys with mics, and that's pretty hard to beat right now, but it's true, actually.

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Tell them.

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We'd gotten a pounding at the door and I answered right away and I saw multiple squad cars. With the lights on. And the officer that I'd spoken to was like, we need to come in. One of the police officers asked me to sit down, and they explained that Drew was holed up in the bathroom with a knife. And I'm like, what are you talking about? I am freaking out from that because I'm like, Inches away from the possibility of somebody dying.

I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal Season 6, Episode 3, Probable Cause. In our last episode, the harassment campaign against Carl, his boyfriend Drew, and their friend Paul reached new heights. Carl's ex-boyfriend denied he was behind the attacks. Even after being questioned by a mutual friend and by his probation officer, Adam swore he didn't do anything wrong. Carl thought he was lying, that he was probably back to drinking, and that was the perfect setup for the real perpetrator. The real person behind the harassment He was someone who'd been there all along, serving as a shoulder to cry on and doing everything he could to place the blame on Adam.

I knew Adam was getting out of jail, so I wanted to pose as Adam because it was an easy scapegoat.

The man you just heard, you've actually met him already.

Release your inhibitions, feel the rain on your skin.

He was Carl's best friend, Paul Augustine. Now you know the truth, but here's the thing. During the escalating campaign of harassment in 2023, Carl, Drew, and police detectives had no idea whatsoever. Everyone was focused on Carl's ex-boyfriend Adam, which was Paul's intention all along. And Paul played the part of the concerned friend perfectly. To Carl and Drew, he wasn't a suspect. He was another victim of Adams. Remember, Paul had also been receiving harassing texts.

Just realize that Carl's attempts to lie to you or whatever dude he's involved with at this point in his life is so beyond ridiculous.

Paul sent himself that message. It was an effective cover. He couldn't be the perpetrator if he was a victim. With Paul, the harassment escalated over time, just as it did with Carl. In November 2023, Paul received this text from an unknown number.

Someone's not going to make it out of this alive. And if you're stupid and show them this message, it just might be you.

It was a direct threat, and Paul was completely freaked out.

He called me up very shaken, crying on the phone and fearing for his own safety. And when I heard him upset, it did deeply affect me.

Hearing Paul in distress only reinforced what Carl already believed. They were victims of the same person, and they were in real danger. The day that text came in, Carl told Paul he needed to go to the police. And he did. Paul filed a police report of his own on November 13th, 2023. Since Paul lived outside of Kenosha, he needed to contact his local precinct. An officer from Wauwatosa PD was sent to Paul's home to interview him. That interaction was recorded on police body cam.

Nice to meet you.

Steve.

Nice to meet you. What's going on?

So me and, okay, a couple of my other friends They live down in Kenosha. For a while we've been kind of harassed and we're like 99% sure that we know who the person is.

Mm-hmm.

They were, you know, actually in jail for what, about a year and a half or so?

Mm-hmm.

And it was the ex-boyfriend of one of my friends.

Paul explained that he and his friend Carl and Carl's new boyfriend Drew had all been targets of the same man. And after months of trying to ignore it, the harassment had reached a fever pitch.

So like, someone's not gonna make it out of this alive. Like, it's not directly saying, oh, I'm gonna kill you, but it's the implication. I think I would take that that way. Most people would. It was a random phone number. I can give you the phone number if that helps.

Yep.

We have stuff that we can punch in phone numbers and see if they are assigned to somebody. The issue, if this was— is just a random generated number, it's not going to show up as anything.

Paul seemed particularly interested in how the police would be able to track down the caller.

I don't know what you guys can do, but, like, you can't read text messages from a random device?

No, nothing like that.

No.

Oh, okay.

That you need a search warrant for.

That'd be a little—

that's a little more intense.

Depending on how, like, bad the thing is.

Yeah.

Is, you know.

Yeah.

Paul nodded along with Officer Mills, but this was new information for Paul. Officer Mills said it would take a pretty serious threat, like a domestic terror threat, to issue a search warrant. And a search warrant would be the only surefire way to unmask the perpetrator. So for the moment, the real identity of the person behind the chaos Carl was relieved that Paul finally filed a police report. He was looking for any way to get law enforcement to take the harassment seriously because now he was getting spoofed constantly. There were days where he received dozens of calls. I get spam calls a lot. You probably do too. You see a random number pop up on your phone, You pick up. Sometimes it's a sales call masked behind a local phone number. Other times, no one's on the other line. You hang up and you go about your day. The spoof calls Carl received were entirely different. First of all, most of the calls weren't showing up as random numbers. Instead, he'd actually see his friend's name pop up on his phone, or his uncle's name, his sister's. You think it's your uncle, your sister, you pick up, what's on the other line?

Nothing. Just 10 seconds of silence.

But to Carl, that silence wasn't empty. It felt threatening. So whenever Carl picked up the phone and was met with silence on the other end, his mind went to a dark place. That someone had it out for him, and they would stop at nothing. What's the big fear? What's the worst-case scenario in your head?

I'm concerned that somebody could be coming for me, that somebody's gonna assault me. If not me, then Drew. At this point, I'm especially hypervigilant. As soon as I get in my car, I'm checking the back seats to make sure that there's nothing planted there. When I'm laying in bed, I don't sleep because that's when my sense of hearing— I pick up on everything.

And every time Carl felt his phone buzz, that same panic set in. His body tensed. His heart rate skyrocketed. It wasn't just an irritating call. It was a reminder that somewhere out there, his ex-boyfriend Adam was listening, plotting, refusing to let him go. All this made it harder than ever to show up as a friend, a partner, and a son. Take this one moment in fall 2023 when Karl's mother had a medical emergency.

My mom called me and said, I need you to take me to the hospital because she's feeling all this pain in her back and in her chest and down her arm.

Karl got right in his car, picked up his mom, and rushed her to the ER. The hospital quickly determined that it was a heart attack. It's one of those moments when time slows down. Karl watched ER doctors and nurses surround his mom.

She's like a rock to me in so many ways. I always come to her with an issue. There would always be some way to figure it out, even when things were volatile. Like, it'll be okay. It'll be figured out.

This should have been a moment where he could just support his mom. Instead, he was getting call after call, seemingly from his sister. But when he picked up, there was always silence. The calls were all fake. He believed that somehow Adam found out about the heart attack. Adam was capitalizing on his mom's illness, kicking Carl when he was down.

How could you be so sick? As to fuck with my mental state right now, just as a family member's in the hospital.

To Carl, it was a clear sign that Adam had changed, that he must have lost his mind.

He's hacking my fucking phone. He's hacking my phone. He has to be. Like, he must be spying on me somehow. Nothing here makes sense right now, and that's the only plausible explanation.

And if he'd stoop this low, if he'd take advantage of a moment of crisis, what would he do next?

I'm talking to police officers from the hospital expressing like, hey, what the hell's going on? What are we going to do about this? It was like I was in a glass box that everybody could see me like screaming and screaming and screaming, but did nothing about it. Like they just passed me by. I could just scream into the wind and nothing would happen. That's what that felt like.

After months of feeling dismissed, Karl tried a new tactic.

Maybe I'll just lean on one of my political connections and see what I can find out.

So he contacted his state representative, and he finally found someone willing to listen. The representative arranged for Karl to meet with the district attorney's office and an investigator.

And the investigator responded with, document everything. I'm like a good government bureaucrat. Like, I can make a spreadsheet. So I was like, hell yeah, I could do that.

So Carl built a timeline of the harassment. He made a spreadsheet starting with the first message his friend Paul received on Grindr back in May and detailed every instance of harassment since.

Do you ever worry about your reputation? Just know that he's a cheater and not to be trusted. You broke me. Andrew and Paul better watch out. I would be worried about this weekend if I were your friends. That fucking asshole will pay.

The more Carl documented, the guiltier Adam looked. And with each row he added, Carl explained why his ex-boyfriend Adam had to be the culprit.

I had a comments column, like, explaining, like, why this particular text message was important. This has to be Adam because it's about the dog we adopted together. This has to be Adam because this was about the time we went to White Castle. There was reference to a Valentine's Day card that Adam sent to me from jail.

I've seen this spreadsheet, and it is no joke. There are hundreds and hundreds of entries. With this, he thought, The cops had to see what he was dealing with.

It isn't just one spoof call that's being ignored. It's 45 of them. And it was a lot to show, like, somebody is out there that's off their rocker.

When it was all laid out in Carl's spreadsheet, you could see all of the phone calls and texts for what they were— a pattern of abuse. And it was getting worse, more unhinged, more violent. On November 21st, 2023, Carl and Drew took the spreadsheet to Kenosha Sheriff's. They sat down with Kenosha County Deputy Mike Rohrs. He'd worked his fair share of harassment complaints before.

Quite frankly, in my experience, most of them are bullshit. They don't have any substance because if I just call you and talk your ear off, you might not appreciate it, but that doesn't necessarily make it illegal. The thing that really set Carl and Andrew apart was Carl had an entire spreadsheet that all kind of pieced this all together. And that was something that I had never seen because most people don't have that evidence. The more that I kept scrolling through it, the more the realization was that this isn't bullshit, that it wasn't just a civil matter. It wasn't just him blowing something out of proportion from an ex. It was legitimate harassment. If not stalking.

But the spreadsheet wasn't the only thing Carl wanted to show the sheriffs that day. We have the body cam footage from this meeting, and in it, Carl explains that his boyfriend Drew recently received a voicemail from Adam.

He left a voicemail on phone saying no caller ID, but he explicitly identified himself, and I listened to the voicemail. It's absolutely his voice.

This was significant. After months of silence on the other line, they finally had Adam identifying himself on tape.

Hello, this is Adam. I'm giving you a call. I know who this is. You know who this is.

In this voicemail, Adam denied that he had anything to do with the harassment. In fact, he made it sound like Carl and Drew were harassing him and his family.

I would greatly appreciate if you would just stop trying to reach out to me. It's getting out of hand. I want nothing to do with you. I don't want to speak with you. I have not tried even reaching out to you once since I left and got out of prison. Just leave me the hell alone. Stop trying to contact my family. I need to move on with my life, and so do you. We need to just let it go and move on. Okay, I will speak to you later.

This message baffled Carl and Drew. Neither of them had reached out to Adam's family, and suddenly Adam was playing the victim. It made no sense. Then Carl got an idea. He could use this voicemail and compare it side by side with that animal abuse call the police received weeks earlier. Here's that call again.

I was wondering if I could have a police officer out to my address. My boyfriend was caught hitting my dog and then it kind of just got into like a little argument between us and I wanted him to leave but he wouldn't.

The police listened to both recordings back to back and compared the voices. Here's Adam's voicemail one more time.

Just leave me the hell alone. Stop trying to contact my family.

I need to move I listened to it, and you could tell these voices are very similar. Like, it is Adam. I'm like, this is it right here. I got my smoking gun.

The cops thought so too. Finally, they started to take Carl more seriously because of the spreadsheet and because of the voice matching. They were convinced that these 2 calls were from the same person. But the cops, Carl, and Drew, they all got it wrong. That voicemail was legit. It was from the real Adam Mejia reaching out to Carl and Drew for the first time in all of this in hopes of finally putting a stop to whatever was going on.

I need to move on with my life, and so do you. We need to just let it go and move on, okay? I will speak to you later.

However, the call to the police was from someone else entirely, someone who'd been hired by Carl's best friend, Paul Augustine.

And Carl was like, that's Adam's voice. So I was like, oh, this is great. Carl totally buys this.

I'm Melissa Geltzman, and in my new podcast, What Happened to Her, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled a suicide.

She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety.

Stories of survival.

The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck, because by all rights, I should be dead.

Cases that everyone else called closed.

They can't convict her, right? Like, she has so much evidence.

These stories all start in the same place, with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her.

No child should ever experienced that, and we were babies.

She did all of these brave things and came out and spoke about it, and he got a year.

You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform.

Listen to What Happened to Her on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Lisa, we should tell them about our new show.

Oh my God, Lexi, we have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me.

I'm Lexi Ioannou. We're 2 best friends, 22 years We're worlds apart, but so close at heart.

And I'm Lisa DiGiulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions. And at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all.

I'm not gonna get anywhere fighting.

That is wild. I learned that about you today.

Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, good taste is my business, and I've always got something to say. If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world.

We're gonna talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older and a little wiser. We're best friends, but we don't always agree. Because you told us how accommodating you are.

Obviously I would do what I think I could do to, to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight I can fight.

Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me.

Don't lie to me.

Don't lie to me.

Don't lie to me.

Liar.

Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't really care.

Hi, this is Kylie Brakeman, Angela Giarratana, Jeremy Colhane, Patrick McDonald, and we're the hosts of the Artist on Artist on Artist on Artist Podcast, the improvised character comedy podcast where each week a new panel of artists discuss their craft.

Join us for a panel of wellness influencers.

What I try to do is faux journal. I don't know, have you guys heard of faux journaling?

Yeah, it's reading. It's called reading.

So you're— so we don't like to use that word anymore.

Okay.

A panel of New Yorker cartoonists.

Have you guys done Terry Gross's Peloton class?

No!

I've been dying to!

I'm so sorry. I'm, I'm seeing a, a reading of Sadako and the Thousand Paper Cranes by Audra McDonald at the Wonderland Bookstore on the 14th.

That's crazy. I went to the Wonderland Bookstore yesterday and I heard Nora Jones do a reading of Zero Dark Thirty.

No way! You have to come to the last bookstore though.

Kim Cattrall is reading the guitar tabs of Yesterday.

A panel of Eurovision participants.

And we do a little Halloween sometimes.

Does the Pope dress up?

He, he winks on Halloween.

He gets right up next to the microphone.

You can— I hear you can almost hear the eyelashes hit each other.

You never seen Italy so quiet as when When the Pope gets up to wink on Halloween.

Listen to Artist on Artist on Artist on Artist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcast, the true crime comedy podcast all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring on incredible guests like Conan O'Brien, Iowa Debris, Lamorne Morris, and Nicole Byer.

Ooh, I scammed them.

What?

I could talk to you for an hour.

You're a generational yapper like me. That's why I had to make yapping a job. And the scams run the gamut. I'm talking about scams from the 1800s all the way up to today. I also warn you and keep you safe against scammers. Call your grandparents. Tell your parents to stop clicking on links, please. And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube. If there's a scam, I'm here to protect you. And I'm also here to laugh with you. So if you like fun, if you like comedy, and you like learning, And protecting yourself from criminals, start listening to Scam Goddess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

It was now mid-November 2023, and finally law enforcement was serious about investigating Carl's case. But in many ways, This help would be coming too little, too late. Karl was already unraveling.

I was going backwards. It was like everything that I had done over the last couple of years towards, like, really improving myself, whether it was my own health or my body image or my relationships, living on my own in Kenosha, all of those success stories in terms of my own personal growth, it was like I was going backwards. on all of it, and the weight was the biggest thing.

Karl lost £150 after his gastric bypass. Dealing with the stress of all this, he gained almost half of it back.

And it was so easy for me to get down on myself for that reason.

The harassment had been going on for nearly 7 months, starting on the day his new boyfriend Drew moved to Kenosha. Karl had planned for this to be the start of a beautiful life together. But he wasn't able to be the partner he wanted to be.

I mean, like, I was not thinking about how we could progress our relationship further or do cute boyfriend things because, like, we were stuck in this mode of chaos.

Carl felt like a failure. He started drinking more and his self-esteem was almost nonexistent.

It's pointless to even try it because I'm just going to be the fat drunk that I was destined to always be.

But he did make one last-ditch effort to pull himself out of that hole. He thought maybe if he could get back to doing what he loved, he could regain a piece of himself. So amidst all the chaos in his life, Karl decided to run for school board again. He'd loved his 2 previous terms. He thought maybe public service would help ground him.

I was seeking out ways that I could come back to my, like, myself and who I really am as a person. You know, an individual who just genuinely cares about their community, getting involved in the best way that they know how. It truly felt like a means of self-care for me.

So in November 2023, Carl began putting together his campaign, but his stalker wasn't about to let him bounce back so easily. After he announced his campaign for school board, Karl got this text from a random number.

Good luck with school board. I'd be hella sure of myself that nothing will go wrong. Not like anyone has access to all your information. That'd be horrible.

Karl had nothing to hide and he said so, but the texter insisted he had receipts.

It's called knowing smart people who can find out anything I ask. I could have fucked you over so much worse, but it's so much fun just watching you stress on the daily.

Karl did his best to ignore the messages.

Then—

Text messages were starting to come in, and it was extortion threats.

The culprit promised he had information that Karl would not want out there. He'd keep it to himself if Karl was willing to pay. Karl had no idea what the texter could be referring to. What he was trying to hold over him. Over the coming weeks, Carl's stalker started blowing up his phone demanding money.

Should I show Andrew the proof of the shit I dug up? Or you can send me $200. Got Venmo? Do you still have my Venmo ready? I can send you the link one more time. I don't care who pays me, but I'll give it 1 hour. I got screenshots, babe. $200?

Hello?

Carl assumed this was all a bluff, just another scare tactic. Then on December 9th, Carl and Paul were hanging out in Carl's apartment. They were drinking, trying to have a good time, when Paul got a text. In it were nude images of Carl.

So many other messages had been fake, but these photos These were pictures I might have taken, like, when I had broken up with Adam and, like, I was going back on, like, apps.

Somehow, the stalker had gotten access to some of Karl's most private images.

How they would have ever gotten them, I could never explain, but they got them, and now they're being used against me.

Along with the nude photos were fake text conversations, texts that made it look like Karl was actively cheating on his boyfriend Drew. Karl's anxiety was off the charts.

We're sitting there completely stunned and frozen, and I'm drunk, but the adrenaline hits me and it's like I didn't even have a single sip of alcohol.

Taking intimate photos is part of dating in the digital era. That in and of itself isn't a scandal anymore. But in this moment, Karl's stalker was threatening to use these photos to cause Karl harm. Both professionally and personally. Carl refused to pay. And that night, to Carl's horror, Drew received a text with the nude images and screenshots.

It was very violating. At first, he was definitely questioning stuff, but eventually, like, he just did not take it seriously because in one of these doctored conversations, The other person responded with another private photo, and it was literally a picture of a porn star. I wish I was getting guys like that, but like, this wasn't the reality. And Drew and I both had a laugh about that. Like, I wish, but no.

It was a brief moment of lightness in an otherwise scary situation. Drew said he didn't believe anything the stalker said anyway, but after that, Karl could tell His boyfriend started to put walls up. And now, of course, there was a looming threat. Who else would get these photos?

Were you concerned that these photos would be released?

To anybody else? Oh God, yeah, I was very concerned about that.

The school board elections were coming up. When Carl was elected the first time, he was the first openly queer person on the Kenosha school board. He knew that if these images came out, He'd be judged differently. So with these images circulating, Karl dropped out of the race.

The last thing I needed was for this to go to somebody else out in the community.

Running for the school board wasn't just another campaign. It was a chance to return to something he'd loved, going back to when he was a teenager. Now that chance was gone, all because his stalker was blackmailing him. His sister Rebecca watched it all change Karl. I saw somebody who was generally very happy kind of devolve into somebody who was very reserved, battered, untrusting. His mom Sue noticed physical signs too. When he's stressed, he's got a spot right here on his forehead and then the dark circles around his eyes.

That you can tell.

He was very short-tempered during that time. Just, you know, things that normally is easygoing, he wasn't easygoing anymore.

The only thing that I could possibly do was to get a burner phone with 1990s text messaging capabilities and phone calling capabilities. And I think that was the first time that the emotions really hit me in that situation. I sat there at the kitchen table and I broke down and cried my eyes out. And I think it was very difficult for Drew and very difficult for my mom as well, because this was a thing that nobody had answers about. Everybody was there to help and everybody was there to support, but there was nothing that any of us could do. It was like I was continually screaming into the wind. But no matter what false reality people were constructing around me and Drew, I had to do these ridiculous things to protect myself. And it sucked. It really sucked.

Paul had turned Carl's life upside down. Seeing Carl in such pain, you might think he'd stop, but he wasn't finished. He only took this as a sign to push further. On January 5th, 2024, Kenosha's non-emergency dispatch received a call.

Hello, my name is Carl Bryant. I'm calling in from Kenosha on 16th Place, and my boyfriend Andrew Condon has a knife.

Someone was pretending to be Carl. The caller said that his boyfriend Drew had a knife and had locked himself in the bathroom. As dispatch communicated with each other about what to do, They acknowledged that something was off about the call.

This person had like— it sounded like a real deep voice and sounded like he was using like a voice changer.

Yet they had to assume this was a real emergency. Deputy Roars explains.

We can't just not do anything because if, God forbid, something does happen, then that's obviously going to not only look bad but also be very bad.

So dispatch sent Kenosha sheriffs to the house right away. Deputy Roers heard the call come over the police radio. Multiple officers were sent with weapons at the ready.

Going to those calls, your adrenaline's pumping because you don't know what's going to happen. All the other squads were coming to this house thinking that it was a barricaded subject or somebody was going to get killed.

Drew and I had just gotten to bed, and we'd gotten a pounding at the door. Sheriff's Department. And I answered right away. And I saw multiple squad cars with the lights on. And the officer that I'd spoken to was like, someone called in a weapons call. And I'm like, what are you talking about? They could clearly see when they went in the bathroom, there was no knife, there was no blood, there was no Drew. They asked Drew to come out. He was still in his underwear. It was so violating.

And the whole situation was incredibly dangerous. False reporting of emergencies is known as swatting, as in calling a SWAT team, and it's considered a serious crime. People can and have died from calls like these.

One miscommunication, one mistake could have resulted in somebody getting shot and killed. I am freaking out from that because I'm, like, inches away from the possibility of somebody dying.

Deputy Roers knew about Karl and Drew's harassment.

And so I knew that most likely it was gonna be unfounded.

When he heard the call for service come over the radio, he rushed to alert his team. He managed to slow things down before anyone got hurt.

If I wasn't there and didn't have that knowledge, then it would have been those 6 people going and having to Almost kicked down the door.

The night ended and everyone was physically okay, but the ordeal shook Karl to his core.

To me, it was like, what is even real life at this point? It was just an assault on my grasp on reality. And I'm here trying to manage some semblance of normalcy, but I can barely hold it together myself. I was not suicidal. But I will say, it literally is going to take for me to die for this to end. It feels like— It was like the only way this is ever going to stop is somebody dead.

I'm Melissa Geltzman, and in my new podcast, What Happened to Her? I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled a suicide.

She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety.

Stories of survival.

The only difference between me and her, frankly, was It's a little bit of luck because by all rights, I should be dead.

Cases that everyone else called closed.

They can't convict her, right? Like, she has so much evidence.

These stories all start in the same place, with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her.

No child should ever experience that. And we were babies. She did all of these brave things and came out and spoke out.

Spoke about it and he got a year.

You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform.

Listen to What Happened to Her on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Lisa, we should tell them about our new show.

Oh my God, Lexi, we have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me.

I'm Lexi Ioannou. We're 2 best friends. 22 years apart, but so close at heart.

And I'm Lisa DiGiulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all.

I'm not gonna get anywhere fighting.

That is wild. I learned that about you today.

Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, good taste is my business, and I've always got something to If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world.

We're gonna talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older and a little wiser. We're best friends, but we don't always agree. Because you told us how accommodating you are.

Obviously I would do what I think I could do to, to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight I can fight.

Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me.

Don't lie to me.

Don't lie to me.

Don't lie to me.

Don't lie to me.

Liar.

Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't really care.

I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcast, the true crime comedy podcast all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring on incredible guests like Conan O'Brien, Iowa Debris, Lamorne Morris, and Nicole Byer.

Ooh, I scammed them.

What?

I could talk to you for an hour.

You're a generational yapper like me. That's why I had to make yapping a job. And the scams run the gamut. I'm talking about scams from the 1800s all the way up to today. I also warn you and keep you safe against scammers. Call your grandparents. Tell your parents to stop clicking on links, please. And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube. If there's a scam, I'm here to protect you. And I'm also here to laugh with you. So if you like fun, if you like comedy, and you like learning and protecting yourself from criminals, Start listening to Scam Goddess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Scam Goddess!

Hi, this is Kylie Breakman.

Angela Giarratana.

Jeremy Colhane.

Patrick McDonald.

And we're the hosts of the Artists on Artists on Artists on Artists Podcast.

The improvised character comedy podcast where each week a new panel of artists discuss their craft.

Join us for a panel of wellness influencers.

What I try to do is faux journal. I don't know, have you guys heard of faux journaling?

Yeah, it's reading. It's called reading.

So you're— so we don't like to use that word anymore.

Okay.

A panel of New Yorker cartoonists.

Have you guys done Terry Gross's Peloton class?

No!

I've been dying to.

I'm so sorry. I'm seeing a reading of Sadako and the Thousand Paper Cranes by Audra McDonald at the Wonderland Bookstore on the 14th.

That's crazy. I went to the Wonderland Bookstore yesterday and I heard Nora Jones. Do a reading of Zero Dark Thirty.

No way!

You have to come to the last bookstore though. Kim Cattrall is reading the guitar tabs of Yesterday.

A panel of Eurovision participants.

And we do a little Halloween sometimes.

Does the Pope dress up?

He, he winks on Halloween.

He gets right up next to the microphone.

You can— I hear you can almost hear the eyelashes hit each other.

You never seen Italy so quiet as when the Pope Gets up to wink on Halloween.

Listen to Artist on Artist on Artist on Artist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

After the swatting incident at Carl's home, Deputy Roars did some investigating and he realized something. The call about Drew having a knife was called in to a non-emergency number. In hindsight, This should have been a significant clue that the call was fake. Here is Deputy Roars again.

Most people, when they need police, they call 911. And if you call non-emergency for an emergency, it's most likely made up.

That's because 911 screens for spoof calls.

And because when they're using spoof numbers, they aren't able to dial 911.

It seemed like the harasser knew this. Because instead of calling 911 to report these fake emergencies, they called non-emergency dispatch. Over the next few days, Kenosha County Sheriff's non-emergency dispatch line received over 30 fake calls. All of them appeared to come from Karl and members of his family. This was draining law enforcement resources, and Deputy Roers was fed up.

I knew how upsetting and frustrating it was for Carl and Andrew, who were having to live with this. I mean, I go home at the end of the night and I can turn off my phone and I don't have to deal with it. This was their lives.

The sheriff's office put more resources on the case. That's when a detective was brought on to partner with Deputy Roers.

My name is Allison George, and I'm a detective with the Kenosha County Sheriff's Office. I first started working on this case in January of 2024.

Detective George had special training in internet crimes like spoofing. So she started reading through the case file.

Based on the extent of the spoofing and the places that were being spoofed called, such as the dispatch center, it told me that this perpetrator was going to great lengths to conceal their identity and that they were Likely on a smart device utilizing all these different applications.

Immediately, she knew what law enforcement needed to do to crack this case: subpoena the spoofing companies. You see, spoofing apps aren't a completely foolproof way to hide a caller's identity. In fact, the software companies that produce these apps cooperate with police investigations all the time.

If law enforcement are reaching out, they'll say, yep, send me a subpoena, and We will get you the information of who's using our application to place those calls.

So Detective George sent out several subpoenas to the spoofing companies. The only problem was those records could take weeks to come back, or in some cases, even longer. In the meantime, George returned to the case file, and she was stunned to see the spreadsheet Carl made logging every harassing call and text. As she combed through it, she came to the same conclusion as Carl. His ex-boyfriend Adam Mejia was likely their guy.

All that information that we had constituted probable cause to believe that Adam Mejia was actually the perpetrator of this.

Probable cause. Maybe there wasn't enough evidence to arrest Adam just yet, but all signs pointed towards him. And that allowed Detective George to justify other methods of investigation.

So in coordination with the district attorney's office, a search warrant was authored. It was approved by a judge. And we went up to the city that Mr. Mejia lives in and met with Mr. Mejia and executed that search warrant.

Kenosha sheriffs decided to divide and conquer. One group of investigators searched Adam's partner's house where Adam was living. At the same time, Detective George and Deputy Roers tracked down Adam, and he wasn't hard to find. They showed up at his regularly scheduled probation meeting. Remember, Adam was still on probation for his DUI. Detectives took him to a local police station for questioning.

All right, make yourself comfortable. Um, like I said, I really appreciate you taking some time out of your day to come in. Well, I'm sorry. You came and grabbed me, but—

Well, yeah.

I would have came anyways because this is bullshit.

This footage is from Adam's interrogation. In the video, Adam takes off his winter jacket and sits down across from the sheriffs. Before this meeting, authorities thought they understood the kind of person they'd be questioning. Judging by the texts they'd seen, this perpetrator was a vindictive, manipulative guy. A jealous ex who'd stop at nothing to destroy Carl's life. But the man they met that day in January 2024 was none of those things.

I'm trying to do good. I'm trying to move away from where I was at. My, you know, I'm trying to just be clean and sober. I was fucked up for 3 years of my life on alcohol, and I dated my best friend. It was a horrible situation. I don't want any of that anymore. I'm trying to move on and it keeps getting thrown in my face. Like, I swear this is not me. But then who? I don't know who. I seriously— I don't know. Why would somebody be trying to send you to jail? I do not know.

Detective George decided to try a little harder to see if Adam would confess to it. At one point, she lied to Adam. Saying they already had proof that the spoof calls came from him. This is a common tactic used in police interrogations to see if the suspect will crack once they think they've been caught.

What we're doing through this is basically starting from the beginning, right? Because we have these phone calls that came in from dispatch, we have the numbers that they came from, which we know are fake, and so we track them backwards. Okay. Which, that's what I actually Said to begin with that that's what should be done. Right. The problem is it's pointing in your direction.

How?

That's what I'd like you to explain to me. I seriously do not know how. I'm like 100% have no clue how that could happen because I have not contacted anyone.

Adam stuck to his story. He was innocent. But there was still so much evidence that seemed to confirm it was him.

Somebody has been calling the dispatch centers, essentially swatting.

Yeah. And if it comes back to your IP address, I mean, that's not gonna— I mean, that's gonna be definitive that it was you. It's not going to.

So it's not going to come back?

No. Did you know that the voice changer didn't work that time that you called our dispatch? What are you talking about? When we compare that to the phone call to our dispatch center, It's the same voice. It's not the same voice. I did not call them.

Detective George played the animal abuse call for Adam.

It's a feminine gay guy, but it's not me. I'm like, I'm telling you, I did not call them. Seriously, I have not called. I'm cutting the bullshit here. No, I am too. I have not called.

This was one of the only moments in the interrogation where Adam seemed on edge. Detective George saw this shift in his body.

I promise you, because this is ridiculous. How are you going to accuse me of doing something that I didn't do? I have not called. I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm confronting you with the facts. And I'm being honest. I have not called, and this has been going on for too long.

Adam was upset, but through it all, he was cooperative. He gave the cops as much information as he knew. He even willingly handed over his phone.

Look through it, all you need, because this is stupid.

About a half hour into the interview, Deputy Roers and Detective George took a pause. They stepped outside and looked at each other. They were baffled.

As a cop, you generally get very good at reading people and knowing what's bullshit and what's the truth. And Adam's completely blindsided. He truly didn't seem like he knew anything. And I kind of felt bad for him.

Adam was forthcoming. The sheriffs were thrown off. Maybe there was more to this story after all. Meanwhile, there were still other cops at Adam's home executing the search warrant. Detective Morrow led the investigation.

A couple of us went to the house and went and looked at it. Looked like your normal everyday house, kind of like this that we're in right now, right?

They walked through the home gathering things that might be helpful. A laptop, an SD card, some paper files. And then—

Look around the whole thing and finally find the Cubs hat. And right then it's kind of like a light bulb, like, oh, shit, this is our guy.

You might remember the Cubs hat from the last episode. When Adam moved out, he took a Cubs hat Carl cherished. This hat was often mentioned in messages to Carl and Paul.

How badly does Carl want this hat back? I'll mail the hat if you want, since you probably don't want to see me ever again. I wanted to give him the hat back, but I get blocked every time.

It might seem like an insignificant detail, but Carl was sure only he and Adam knew about the hat. So to detectives at the scene, this hat was the missing piece. It was verification of Carl's story. Strong circumstantial evidence that Adam Mejia was behind the harassment. Deputy Roers and Detective George were still on their break, standing outside the interview room when they got the news. Detective George had asked Adam about the hat early on in the interview.

We are executing a search warrant.

Okay.

Um, are they gonna find that stupid hat that everyone keeps talking about? I don't know what hat you're guys talking about.

Okay.

I'm not sure. It's something Chicago Cubs.

And then later on towards the end, communicating with the officers who were executing the search warrant at his home, well, they found that hat there.

So I just talked to my lieutenant who was over at your house. He found that hat. Which hat?

The Chicago Cubs one.

I remember what hat now you're talking about. You said yellow one, and I saw yellow and brown. I have not worn it at all since I've been here.

And you have had it?

And I don't even— no, because it was downstairs in the basement, I think.

Adam insisted the hat was buried in storage. He just forgot he had it. But to Detective George, it felt like she'd caught Adam in a lie. There was mounting evidence, and Detective George had to make a decision. We have body camera footage of what happened next.

I am, first of all, incredibly confused about what is all going on.

Oh my.

Um, we are going to be taking you into custody.

What?

For one count of stalking.

If you didn't catch that, let me repeat it. Adam was being arrested on one count of felony stalking. He was going to jail. On paper, it all made sense, but detectives had the wrong guy.

You will have a court appearance probably maybe tomorrow at 1. I can tell you that I'm going to be digging a lot deeper into this, and if there is someone else who is causing issues, I will find out.

As of right now, like we told you, everything is pointing towards you. I understand if it's not you, then you honestly, you have nothing to worry about.

Nothing to worry about except that he was being taken to jail for a crime he didn't commit.

You have been completely chill and cooperative. We are going to be as chill and cooperative with you as we can. We are going to take you into custody. We have to take you to the Conshohocken County Jail where you will be booked and see a judge.

No shot?

Yes.

How long am I going to be incarcerated for?

That I don't know.

So I don't know when I'm getting out? Unfortunately not.

And that is not, once again, our— if you want to face over, uh, here, just turn this way.

There we go.

Deputy Roers searched Adam's pockets to make sure he had nothing on him. The whole time, Adam kept his wits about him.

Do I get a phone call?

You've been cool with us, so we're going to let you make your phone call using one of our phones before—

This is all because of stalking.

Yeah. Yeah, we're gonna take you to the restroom, then we'll walk out to the car. I'll come back in and grab your stuff.

Based on his behavior, the authorities allowed Adam to call his mother from the police car.

Right now I'm okay. I'll call you as soon as I can.

Okay.

When I find out more information. And I just pray that I'm going to be okay.

It's just not cool.

I love you.

So that's all right.

I didn't do anything. I love you.

Yeah, I love you too.

Try not to get too worked up about this.

Oh, I'm already worked up.

I'm already worked up.

This—

I just can't believe it. I just cannot believe it.

Just pray. Please, just pray.

Before the day could end, there was one last thing Deputy Roers needed to do— deliver the news to Karl.

Really?

Okay.

No!

Take a check.

Take a tack, dog.

Yeah.

When he got to Karl's house late that night, he found Karl hanging out with a friend. Paul Augustine just so happened to be there.

He's actually really friendly.

Say hi. Say hi.

How have you been?

Good, how are you?

I'm good. So—

I'm gonna get him out of the bedroom. He's just gonna be—

Sorry.

No, that's okay.

So he got arrested today.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

That gasp came from Paul, the actual perpetrator. In the moment, His reaction made sense. After all, he'd been a target too. He and Carl had been in this together from day one.

So as of right now, um, we're still going through his phones and everything. Um, the hard part isn't over. He's basically just been put in— he's been arrested for stalking.

Okay.

Um, you personally weren't though? I mean, because you're— it's not like— no, you personally had to drive up there to do it?

Oh, you seriously did?

Oh, oh my God.

I've been there all day. So—

Oh my God.

I don't know, you probably can't answer, but I'm still gonna ask anyways. If you can't, it's fine, but how did he even react?

He was surprisingly calm.

I will, I will give him that.

There was only one person in the room who knew the truth, and he was asking all the questions. Paul could barely contain his glee.

Are you excited?

Yeah, I can actually stay. You know, I haven't stayed here in 2 weeks. I might actually stay here tonight.

All Carl wanted was a night of peace. Now he was getting it, and his best friend Paul was there to enjoy it with him.

We have a nickname, though.

We call his house Camp Harassment.

We do.

We do. But now it's Camp Celebration.

On the next episode of Betrayal, Carl's ex-boyfriend, the man everyone believed was responsible, the man who went to jail for a crime he didn't commit, Adam, tells his side of the story.

During the whole case, my voice was never heard. Carl's been through hell and back. Andrew's been through hell and back. But they all told their story. They were all able to report it to police. But with me, how do you report it to police when police are the ones telling you you're doing this?

If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod@gmail.com. That is betrayalpod@gmail.com. Or follow us on Instagram @betrayalpod Or me at @itsandreagunning. To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts, and don't forget to rate and review. 5-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts. a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeartPodcasts. The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Carrie Hartman and Caitlin Golden. Our story editor is Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our production manager is Kristen Melchiorri. Our associate producer is Leah Jablow. Additional support by Curry Richmond and Olivia Hewitt. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Krejnczak. Audio editing and voice acting by Tanner Robbins. Mixing and mastering by Matt DelVecchio. And special thanks to Carl Bryan, Adam Mejia, Matt Rolsey, and their communities.

Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by MIB Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Bye.

Lisa, tell them about our new show.

We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me.

I'm Lexi Ioannou. We're 2 best friends, 22 years apart but so close at heart.

And I'm Lisa DiGiulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all.

Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, good taste is my business.

Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcast, the true crime comedy podcast all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring on an amazing guest.

Ooh, I scammed them.

What?

I could talk to you for an hour.

You're a generational yapper like me. That's why I had to make yapping a job. And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube. Start listening to Scam Goddess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Scam Goddess.

Hi, this is Kylie Breakman.

Angela Giarratana.

Jeremy Culhane.

Patrick McDonald.

And we're the hosts of the Artists on Artists on Artists on Artists podcast.

The improvised character comedy podcast where each week a new panel of artists discuss their craft.

Join us for a panel of Eurovision participants.

And we do a little Halloween sometimes.

Does the Pope dress up?

He, he winks on Halloween.

He gets right up next to the microphone. You can—

I hear you can almost hear the eyelashes hit each other.

You've never seen Italy so quiet as when the Pope gets up to wink on Halloween.

Listen to Artists on Artists on Artists on Artists every Thursday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Hamza.

And I'm Martin.

And we're the hosts of Out of Character, the best podcast in the world. It's really funny and a good time.

Wait, really?

Yeah, yeah, I think statistics just came back and we're one of the funniest 2 guys with mics, and that's pretty hard to beat right now, but it's true actually.

Why should people listen to us?

Tell them.

Well, we're trendy, we're funny, we're topical. You get all your news here. Not, you know, the facts, but maybe our takes on it, um, and everything in between. So listen to Out of Character on the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is an iHeartRadio podcast. Guaranteed human.