Transcript of 2024 Trade Deadline Extravaganza with Mike Garafolo and Jourdan Rodrigue

Welcome to NFL Daily, where we embrace the NFL becoming like the NBA. I'm Greg Rosenthal here in the Chris Westling podcast studio. The Trade Deadline has come and gone, and there's no one I would rather have break it all down for me.

No one?

Maybe like one or two people. Mike Garefolo is Very high on the list.

Welcome. Sydney Sweeney? No.

I mean, I don't think she really has a hot take on the Jonathan Mingo trade. Like, Hey, what are the cowboys doing? That's what I'm into.

Maybe not a hot take.

I don't know what gets you going in the morning. Actually, I do. Button up. You don't need to button up. And yes, we're on YouTube, everyone. Check out the show there if you want. But for everyone else, it's mostly in the ears here, and they're just going to hear the great voice. I woke up early. The daylight savings, lots going on in this Maybe I slept a little less because of that. Who knows? I don't know what it is. Did it happen in the day? No. And we turned it on, and it's like 6:00 in the morning. There's Mike Garafolo on my screen already on Good Morning Football. And here you are, eight hours later, you've done three shows in between. You've got another more show. I'm just making up numbers in terms of the shows. It's all good. Don't you like that the NFL actually is worthy of a Trade Deadline special? Sure.

It makes it interesting. It adds a little wrinkle that we never had before, and it gives us a reason to make calls and say hello to some people during the season. It's fun, a little rush when you get to break some news on a day like this. The thing that's surprising is it starts earlier and earlier every single year. Even now to the point where you had eight deals today. I believe eight trades was the number which matched last year, not as high as the 13 from 2022. But I had a conversation with a personnel guy the other day, and I said, Well, why is this now a thing when it didn't used to be a thing? They said there was a number of reasons, analytics and all this stuff. He said, But the one thing that he really believes is there's so many coaches out there, coaching trees overlapping, that a lot of the terminology is the same these days, where it wasn't necessarily 10, 15, 20 years ago. Now guys are able to come in and get acclimated a little bit more quickly. But even to the point of DeAndre Hopkins in his second game with the Chiefs, there were a couple of times where he went out there and Mahomes says, No, no, no, no, no.

He had to flip to the other side of the formation as they're lining up. There were two plays at the end of regulation where he wanted to hit him one time. Almost cost him the game. Didn't turn around. Then you saw Mahomes back to the sideline to Mat Nagui. Again, and he looked for him coming off the line. He had to have told him in the huddle. Looks for him coming off the line. He's not looking. With those hiccups, they're still off to a great start there. But it just tells you it is still difficult in season to get acclimated to a new team in a new player.

Maybe that helps explain why teams were hesitant to do it in the past. We're going to get through all the trades. We're going to talk Marshawn Latamore going to the Commanders. That's fun. The Zidaria Smith trade finally happened. We'll talk some winners and losers. Jordan Rodrieg is coming up later in the show. We'll see if the Rams press conference ends in time for her to join you, but we'll also preview the Thursday night game between the Bengals and the Ravens. But since we're starting big picture, I think this is interesting because, first of all, they moved the trade deadline back. When I joke about them becoming the NBA, it just was a weird place the NFL was in for a long time, I thought that teams weren't trying to improve enough during the season. You only have so many different ways to improve. I remember writing an article for the website when the Eagles and the Patriots played in the Super Bowl using some facts that those were the two teams that had traded by far the most in the NFL during the Howie Roseman and Bill Belchick era, and the two pretty successful organizations because you should be looking at every way to try to improve your team.

And now we move the trade deadline back. You mentioned the continuity security. The thing that's crazy with all these trades, and going back to Mario Cooper and DeAndre Hopkins, is they're all so cheap. Unless the prices start getting more expensive, why wouldn't you be trading for players for these prices?

I've long since said, and John John Schneider of this new wave. John Schneider was one of the ones that was really started to be… And some of these didn't work out, by the way, the Percy Harvin trade for most amongst them. He was the one to say, I'll take the proverbial bird in the hand, rather than the draft pick that I don't know what it's going to I went to, and I've said, why wouldn't you give up a fifth-round pick? Because fifth-round pics are a coin flip as to whether that player is actually going to make the opening day roster. Year one. So right away, half of them… Listen, sometimes back to squads and whatnot. Then you take it further and see how many of these guys pan out within the next three years versus you're getting a veteran, you know what you're getting. Now, you're not going to get them nearly as long as potentially if you hit on a fifth-round pick, but the numbers really tell you the value of if you're willing to move on or move that fifth-round pick or sixth or seventh or whatnot, the value you're getting back immediately and the value that you know you're getting.

So I agree with you. I like the fact that general managers have become more aggressive. You've got the buyers and the sellers. And if the Cleveland Browns had their way, because they proposed this thing moving back a week, they proposed it moving back two weeks. But we would stillLet's get another week. They're trying because their point was you'd moved it back a week with the 18-week schedule. Now, if you get a 19-week schedule, move it back another... We're still not caught up is what they're saying to where they want it.

Plus, we're only halfway through the season. Some teams not even.

Within the next week, you're going to get more clarity on who's in and who's out, too.

Yes, a couple of things there. Number one, love doing this show with a real TV professional. If you do happen to watch the YouTube, Garefolo just can't go more than a second without making love with his eyes to the camera because you're just a professional. Whereas I'm just sitting back here not even thinking. It's an audio media, but no, you're great at it. You're great at it. It's very natural. Number 2, I disagree with John Schneider on his own assessment. The moment Percy Harvin returned that countdown in the Super Bowl is one of the all-time Super Bowl moments I've ever been at. That alone made that a good trade. Just that? Yeah.

What about when a Golden Tate pile drive him? Or was it Doug Balvin, the pile-drive Percy Harvin?

No, I think-Punched him.

One of them got stuffed in a trash can. Have you ever heard Mike Rob tell that story? No. I don't know that he's ever told it on air, to be honest with you. Let's hear it. No, you got to have him on and have him tell the Percy Harvin story. And like, Pete Carroll coming to him. Mike Rob, I need... Because this happened right before the team picture at the Super Bowl. So Golden Tate's got a black eye in the picture. It's amazing. You could see like, there are scowels on a bunch of faces. I've seen the picture before, but Mike Rob's version of the story is-I need to hear it, but I stand by my assessment.

The pop, that was in the New York Super Bowl, right? The pop in that stadium was maybe the best moment in Seahawks history, so I disagree with John Schneider. Then finally, just on the pics, and then we'll get to all these traits. These teams value these pics so much at this time of year. I could never give up a fourth-round conditional for a future Hall of Famer like DeAndre Hopkins or Devine. No, we couldn't possibly do that. We'll only give up a fifth to sixth pick swap. Oh, no, we're not going to improve our pass rush with a guy like Aziz O'Gillari, for instance, who didn't get traded. We're not going to dare give up a fourth round pick. Then you get to draft day, and they're like, Can I please move up six spots in the fifth round? I'll give you next year's fourth. And they're just giving them away like candy, and it's nothing. So that's annoying to me. Why is that?

You know why? It's because I'm the best at drafting. Who am I? I'm every general manager that ever existed. They all think, Well, I'm not going to give it up because I know with a fourth-round pick, what I'm capable of doing, I'm going to hit on that fourth round. But again, that's the old-school way of thinking. They've come off of that a little bit. And then when you get to draft day and they've had their eyes on these guys for months on end and they get a chance to get them, then it's like the immediate toy right in front of their face that I got to have this guy, so I got to move up. I remember an agent years ago as a fullback, and he got somebody to jump. It was a cowboy to jump over somebody, and that team was never going to draft him, but he got him to jump just because then he could in the future say, Well, you trade it up for him. It was like in the fifth or sixth round or something like that, which was a great job by the agent because now you got something that you liked them this much, you jumped another team.

So you got to sign them to an extension or something like that.

Yeah, like a Marcus Davenport situation. Speaking of which, let's get to the news. Let's start with the biggest trade of the day, the one that really gave us something I'm going to anchor this show with. The Saints Trade, Marshawn Latamor, arguably the greatest cornerback to ever wear the Saints uniform. I'd have to go through a bet. I think it's a pretty safe bet. And a 2025 fifth-round pick to the Commanders for a third and fourth-round pick, they also get a sixth in that deal. So really, it was like a late-round pick swap, but they get a third and a fourth for Marshawn Latamor. Of all these trades where almost nothing is changing hands for good players, this was actually a decent haul. I thought this made a lot of sense for both sides. I actually think it says good things about the Saints moving forward, but for the commanders, it's a move where you almost didn't expect them to be putting some chips in the middle of the table this season.

Just for anyone who just heard what you said and maybe is an Eagles fan growing up like me and thinks Eric Allen is the best corner, but his best years were probably with the Eagles, I want to say. I just want to throw that out there just to make sure.

Four-time Pro bowler made the all-Pro team.Oh.

He was a Pro Bowl or a bunch.Marsh.

On Latamor.Oh, oh, oh.I'm just saying that he's pretty strong.

I don't know if basically he had to be in his best years with the Saints, in which case then Lattemore would be the guy. We'll start with the Commander's endDo you want to go for this? Yes. Because you're now seeing, and we've seen it repeatedly, if you are a team and you have a quarterback on a rookie deal, you go for it. Because you know you're going to have to pay him. Now it's going to be by the time Jaden Daniels does his deals, $70 to $80 million a year, whatever it's going to wind up being, I'm projecting. It'll be certainly above 60, which is where we already are. That's going to ham string your ability to do things elsewhere on the roster. The commanders already feel like they're in that zone. Maybe it's house money to a lot of us who didn't expect them to be where they are right now. In their minds, it's like, Let's go right now. Because you're also getting him, I don't know how many years, I think two more years left.

Two more years, only, I think, $16 million a year in base salary. That's good for a qualityin the starting corner.

Now, if I'm Latamor's agent, Hey, you just traded for him. He performed for you down the stretch. This offseason, we're going to have a conversation because we want a new deal. Whatever. That's a good problem to have if you're the Washington commanders, I guess. But this is where you're in that zone of, We've got a rookie quarterback on a rookie contract. We've got to strike while we possibly can and spread those resources out there. I give him credit for doing it right now. I really do. It's a franchise right now that's got so many good vibes going on. The fan base is loving it. The players that have been... I talked to Terry McLaren after the game on Sunday. I did an interview with him on the field after their seventh win of the season, and he talked about, I don't take these days for granted. I thank God for the patience and the endurance to last through the times that weren't as sweet there. You're sending a message to the locker room saying, We understand how long it's been since you've been competitive We understand how you're feeling right now. We're in the thick of this, and we're going to do the best we possibly can.

It's awesome because Latamor was the one guy now that Amari Cooper and DeAndre Hopkins already went that I thought could be an immediate big impact. There's some role players that are going to help out. Marshall Latamor, when he played this year, maybe not the best tackler in the world, but was great in coverage. He just hasn't played a lot, so he's going to have to be healthy down the stretch. The last handful of seasons, I believe he only had 410 snaps two seasons ago, 621 snaps last year. He's up to 415 already this year, but has been in and out a little bit with a ham string injury. Didn't seem like he got along. He even said it to the media that he had a personal issue with Dennis Allen, that they quieted down and figured out before this season. Now Dennis Allen's gone, and Marshawn Latamore's gone. But you're getting the very end of what should be his prime if he can stay on the field, year 28, 29. He has a $2 million roster bonus, too, so it's $18 million a year, but that's plenty good. And more than anything, it upgrades the worst position on their roster that they've been getting by.

But suddenly you're replacing a negative at cornerback with a good player. I love it because they had extra pics, and they've been very smart since Adam Peters got there.

Emmanuel Forbes is not a big guy. That's been the problem. He's too slight. Now you're adding a guy who can play more physically, can play with emotion, can play the ways that Forbes hasn't been playing. I was with Steve Smith on Sunday at the game. We're doing pregame hits on the sideline, and Forbes runs by, and he goes, Is that Forbes? I go, Yeah. He goes, He gives this look, and he didn't say anything, but he gives this look like, Man, I want to eat that guy.

He has a withering looks. I would not want to be on the wrong side of a withering Steve Smith look.

His look was like, Man, I would have eaten that guy alive. Almost like, I need that guy alive right now. Go get me a helmet and shoulder pads. Because he's so slight. He's got twigs for legs. I'm not trying to knock the kid, but they needed a bigger presence at the quarterback position. Listen, it wasn't the greatest situation in New Orleans for Marshawn Latimor the last couple of years. You get into a place where the vibes are so good, and now you're with a competitive team after such a disappointing week three through nine or whatever we're in now with the Saints and the way that that fellow. All of a sudden, now, all of a sudden, that hamstring can feel a little bit better.

It's been a while for him since he's been on a good team.

You're playing energetically. You're feeling good about things. I think that's what the Commanders are banking on.

I think they're going to get good production out of him. It means the Saints only have one player left from that famous 2017 draft class. Do you remember the players in this draft? That's too much putting you on the spot.

Eric McCoy, is he in the draft?

Eric McCoy is not in that class. Latamor was the first one. They thought they were getting Mahomes with that pick, and at least that's the story told. But they got Latamor. Just stop because you're just burying Just to be clear, I am horrible when it comes to remembering which draft is which. The only reason I know this is because I tweeted out earlier today, and so I looked it up. Latamor, Ryan Ramcheck was in there. Marcus Williams having a great career here in the second round, Trey Hendriksen in the fourth round, Alvin Kamara in the third round. Keep going. All in one draft. Keep going. Alex Anzaloni, who's had a nice career, Alka Dean-Muhammed is the last one. That's the entire draft.

Michael Thomas was 2016. Don't act like I missed it by 10 years.

I'm just saying you got it wrong. One year. I actually think that's symbolic. This Saints team is ready to turn the page. I thought this is very encouraging. We spent a lot of time talking about the Saints on our Monday night show, so we don't need to repeat it all here. But this shows me they're willing to take 36 million dollars in dead cat money on the 2025 books. That says to me, Hey, we actually are going to be honest with ourselves. Finally, we're going to rebuild. Because he's still one of their better players. They have 60 million dollars in dead money already next year, and they could have more if they get into their-That's what they do. Not this much where it's dead cat money. Latamor, Jamis, Michael Thomas, and Ryan Ramcheck. They're taking the pain now instead of putting it off to the lady.

Yeah, but they're going to be doing the same thing we always do right before the start of the lead. The Saints have restructured this.

The Saints have-I disagree because I think they won't have the same guy running the team. That's my prediction. You guys capable of saving clips?

Save this clip right here. Just earmark it right now. Hit a button. Even if you don't really hit a button, just humor me.

I'm just saying if Mickey Loomis is not running the organization, and I don't know, these moves make me wonder.

If Mickey Loomis is not running, so you're saying he's out, too? Yes. What's the dead money on that deal. I'll have to check on that. You know the only general manager in the entire league in his contract here? Joe Douglas. Only one.

That's pretty crazy. Yeah, you're right. Maybe Gael Benson wouldn't want to be paying the dead money on the front office. But I just think this actually is a sign. Who knows? It might have come down from above. We've heard this in the past. In fact, the commanders last year, it was pretty clear from ownership on down. Even if the people there weren't staying, they were like, Trade guys and get what you can get. They were able to use those pics to get good draft pics and feel to get Marsha and Vladimir. I think the same thing is happening here. They told the front office, Get some pics. Good job by this.

They've told the front office a few things in the last couple of days.

That's what we got on the Monday night show, that that was maybe not the decision to get rid of Dennis Allen. Again, I think when I put this out on the old Twitter, just like that this is a sign they're finally ready to rebuild, all the Saints are so happy. They will live with a year of pain to just move on and move forward. Walking in, walking Coming into the studio right now, by the way, is Jordan Rodman. What's up? The camera is going to stay on me, so don't feel awkward as you get into the seat, and we got to move on. We're going to talk about the next trade. This is just how we do it in NFL Daily. Mike, you got your fancy TV shows where people aren't walking onto the set in the middle of the show. But we want as much Jordan Rodrie as we can on the show, so here she is.

That makes one person.

Okay, there we go.

No, make it two. I'm in.

Let's talk Mike Williams to the Steelers. Fun Trade. Fifth round pick.

Yeah. Started with a breakfast sandwich and ended with... Well, it didn't end, but Roger's taking the shot at him. Hi, Jordan. There she is in the three-shot. Hi, guys. He's calling a three-shot in the business. What are we talking about? Mike Williams and breakfast sandwiches.What.

Do you mean a breakfast sandwich?Good ones in Pittsburgh.What did he get one?

When he was on his free agent visit, the fans were bringing him... Somebody delivered a breakfast sandwich to him saying, We've got the greatest breakfast sandwiches here. Sign here. So they did that. And then it I'm good with actually a terrible take by Ian Rappaport. What else is new? Saying that he's going to Pittsburgh where they have the best sandwiches. Listen.

Was he thinking like Primani Bros?

That's what he's thinking. Yeah, they've got good sandwiches. Don't go say in Pittsburgh has the best sandwiches because it's just not factually accurate.

But Philly, you're saying what?

All the places I've lived, Philly, North Jersey, Jersey Shore.

Little John's roast pork. How about that? Well, I see. I know.

Listen, I'm going to defend my turf if you're going to start talking.

Although One of the things I miss most, I think about it a lot on Sunday mornings about living in New York is the breakfast sandwich from yourBacon, egg, and cheese.Bodegas or whatever.

Just had one the other day. It was like, This is so good. My mother was visiting and she said, I want to get a bagel from ACME from the supermarket. I go, You are six blocks away from the best bagels in the Hudson up there. It's like the best. Just go. No, I'll go get... You're not buying a bagel from ACME with that available. Mike Williams. Yeah. The deal that we thought was going to get done immediately after the Devante Adams deal, Pittsburgh has been looking for that big body, number one type guy. I don't think he's still what he was earlier in his career. Certainly getting healthier this year, you got to give him the ability to do that as well. That's going to continue. It's going to continue to be a process. But I think this adds to them. Russ has been throwing the Moon ball, talking to the receivers there, saying it just gives us a better shot because we're facing the ball, whereas the cornerback's got his back to us. It just makes me... So now you got a guy that can go up and get it and it's got that big wingspan and that big catch radius, as they like to say.

I like the fit here. I really do.

It's a huge reason why we talked about a lot of these receiver thirsty teams that were combing the market the way that they were, someone who draws attention away from other people and other facets, other elements of the scheme and the game plan in order to open those things up. And then once those things start to draw attention, then When you hit that guy on a moon ball. I like the fit here. It was really no secret. Mike, you did some great reporting on this. The Steelers were for quite some time wanting to bring in a receiver, and I think we're pretty thorough in the job they did and checking to see who was available.

I guess they didn't want Deontay Johnson back because he wouldn't have cost, even this much, a fifth-round pick. But that says a lot, I guess, about that relationship. I watched the Aaron Rodgers, McAfee reaction to Mike Williams. He live on air when Mike Williams got traded, and then they asked him about it. Aaron Rodgers politically hinted at what you just said, which is not the same Mike Williams, maybe, that it's been tough coming off the torn ACL. He never was the fastest of receivers in the first place. It might take sometimes till a year or two to get all that back. But if there ever was going to be a spot where he could make some impact, it would be with the Steelers who could use a big body receiver down the field other than George Pickens Russell Wilson has got to throw that thing up there. That should be fun to watch. They also made another trade today, Mike. They brought in Preston Smith. I was surprised by this one. Why do you love it?

Because I go back to when I covered the Giants, the Ernie O'Courcy days with the general manager. They drafted Matthias Quinoa and Justin Tuck in back-to-back years when they already had Osi Umenyiora and Michael Strahan and his statement that we used over and over. You can never have enough pass rushers. Well, this is the case right now. I compare this what we with the commanders with the rookie contract. They've got Russell Wilson on a veteran minimum deal right now. They were able to take on the money that Preston Smith has owed the rest of the season here to get him in with T. J. Watt, with Alex Highsmith. You don't just have two pass rushers. You can add a third, and it gives you flexibility. And Hy Smith has been banged up this year as well.

He might be a fourth. Nate Herbberg is a really good young player, too. Herbig is well. But four is good.

There you go. See, there's four. That's a good number.

I think he is the fourth. But also Herbig, they might be managing him a little bit. He's had some issues with the ham string, so they might be managing him a little bit, especially if they think they're going to really make a push. So having four guys, including one who they think can come off the bench, this might be a strategy move for them in terms of not just bringing another guy in the rotation, but also in case of soft tissue, injury management, or any number of things to preserve. And it's almost like spelling certain guys to maximize their reps once you do get in those rush situations and potentially, December, and they hope the playoff.

One of the things that drives me crazy about the stealers is they never let TJ Watt off the field. If you watch those games, he's always gassed and a little not at his best late in the fourth quarter. He makes these big plays, But a lot of times, he needs a blow late in the game. I love it. It's like the Eagles. They always try to have four pass rushers, get four pass, and it didn't cost much. It was for a seventh-round pick. The packers defense has been a little weird this year. Most of their pass rushers have less production than they have had in the past. It's a different scheme. He probably just wasn't a scheme fit. Let's talk about another former packers pass rusher. It's Zadaria Smith. He's been to a few teams since, and now he's going to another one, going to the Lions. It ends up costing the Lions a fifth and a sixth round pick, although they get a seventh back. So it's really a fifth and a late day three pick swap. Not a lot for Zadaria Smith. I think they're paying him what's left of his contract, which is quite hefty.

It's just this year, but he has a big base salary. But they needed this, Mike.

I'd have to check on that. I don't remember the financials on that one. That feels like it happened three days ago, and it was earlier this morning.

Well, Florio did a half report on Sunday, so maybe that's why you're thinking it feels like three days ago. I know you don't maybe pay attention to the other reporters, but he reported something where he was like, We said it's expected, probably, or something.

Yeah, this was... It's like, and You could see, it's funny, when you see that all on the screen, you could see how it came together. It's like, well, we're not just going to do the fifth round. Well, what if we do that? Okay, but then we want this back because we don't want to lose it. It's like, okay, all that just gets thrown up on the screen there. It's like, that's how it finally came together. That's what the last couple of The last couple of days were really all about in finalizing this one. It makes a lot of sense. Once it became clear with Max Crosby, Miles Gar... Those guys were untouchable. They weren't going anywhere. They never were. Zadaria Smith then became the best next possible option for the Alliance. He fits so well, in my mind. Don't even want to say Aiden Hutchinson, replace, and nothing about that. You lose Aiden Hutchinson, you just do the best you can at this point, but he can give you a little pass for us. He can play against the run. He's got a ton of experience.

They're trying to replace him in the aggregate, which again, still isn't replacing him. But when you saw Dan Campbell skipping in front of the podium a little bit, doing a little happy dance. This was a while ago when asked about whether they're going to bring in a pass rusher. I did think of you, Mike, because I was like, how early... It's maybe an inside baseball question that you don't necessarily have to answer, but how early in this process did this become so obvious to you that this was going to be not just happen, but be like the fit? Just this tier of guys, too, because you've got Mark Davis sending emails saying, We're not trading max... You have all these things that are public, but you know when a certain tier is unreachable, and then you're targeting a cluster of players.

Which part? That Zedaris was going to the lions or that those guys were untouchables?

Both. Well, not necessarily Zedaris, specifically, but that cluster.

That they were getting someone, maybe.

That cluster of-Yeah.

You start to piece it together. You really have to. That's something that I've really learned over the last couple of years is I used to wait for people to tell me. Then you go, Wow, wait, but I heard this person say that, and I guess I thought that there was still another step. You got to make the leap at some point. You start to hear these non-denial denials, basically, and you go, Oh, this is happening. You know who's really good at that? Ian Rappaport.

Tremendous.unbelievable at putting the pieces together.

I'll be like, But this person said that. He's like, Yeah, that means it's getting done. I'm like, No, no, no, but still got, No, no, it's done. And then it winds up happening. You're like, Whoa, okay. So you almost... Not that you're pushing it over the line. It's already done. You have to hear what people are saying and realize you have to have a personnel person to reporter translation book.

Now, I don't want to get too deep into it or impugn Ian's character, but is there a chance that it's like game recognizes game. He can see the lies and the obfuscations for what they are because he's good at that, whereas you're just a better person. You don't expect the line quite as much.

Exactly right. That's exactly right. I believe in people.

I think this is a great fit, by the way. He's got the same pressure. He's not the same as it used to be necessarily, but I think he's a really good fit in this defensive scheme. Change of scenery is always good for a player who's bounced around a couple of times. He's got the same pressure rate as Kaleel Mack right now.

And he hates the packers even more than Lion's fans. That is the key. He really hates the packers.

That's a weird ending. Yes.

And he had some revenge games already because he did join the Vikings for a year before going to the Browns.

But back to answering your question, Jordan. When I started to have conversations with people not even involving or not even involved with the Lyons or Zadaria Smith, and I mentioned him, they go, Oh, yeah. Well, he's going to the Alliance. Everybody around it started to have these... They knew it was going to happen. You never heard it necessarily directly from the Alliance or from Smith's camp. You go, enough people around it are saying that it's getting done, so that must be good. You go, Okay, within the next couple... It's going to happen within the next couple of days. It happened earlier this morning.

I would just love to do a whole show about what your life is like. I know.

It's really not that interesting. This is why we have Mike Garafolo in the studio. I love this.

I geek out over this stuff.

In the studio. Let's take a quick break, and then we'll wrap up all the trades, and maybe throw out a few winners and losers. Mike will move on to his 17th show of the day. Back in a second. Back on NFL Daily, when I was talking about watching you 6:00 in the morning, already on my television, Mike.

That's good context that he was on your television when you were watching him in the morning.

You missed the start of the show, Jord. Like, joining the conversation midway through.

He's just joining us now.

I think you guys were talking about this Jonathan Mingo trade. Wasn't that one of the first ones of the day to happen? People were just saying, Why are the Cowboys making a trade again? They actually gave up a fourth-round pick to get Jonathan Mingo and a seventh.Weird?Yeah. Very.

A lot of other teams thought it was weird, too. If it pans out, who cares? See, I don't want to sit here and bash a team for making it after we just said, Team should be willing to... So if you feel this strongly about it.

A fourth-round pick is not a crazy... Everyone's making this out to be like, Oh, they got robbed here. They gave up the same as the Chiefs gave up for DeAndre Hopkins, which is true that it is a fair point that they maybe should have said something less, but we're talking about the difference being fourth to fifth. I think the problem is Mingo just has really poor tape at the NFL level. And Jerry Jones even said publicly, Well, we loved him coming out of college. We loved the tape. And so I always hear that reasoning from NFL teams of why you make a move. Well, we loved his college tape. Well, how about the NFL tape? Isn't that way a lot more? If he's coming out in the draft now, he obviously is a very different evaluation because he struggled to get open as a pro.

It is tough tape in large portions. Also, though, it seems to me all over the league, just subtle shots being taken at the state of the Panthers over the last couple of years, like from Sean Payton, not so subtle, to, Okay, well, we're going to throw that out. We're looking at college, specifically. You actually hit it on the head with something you said earlier, Mike, pan out. So to me, I think we first have to define what does that mean if you're the Cowboys, how does this pan out? Like, what makes it successful for me because of Dax situation? It's looking at potentially panning out next year, getting them in your building ahead of time, redeveloping him from the situation that he was previously in, recalibrating some of the tools that they liked, apparently, coming out of college.I.

Did, too, by the way.I did, too. Other teams did, too. I was a fan of Jonathan.

Sort of hitting the reset button. This, to me, screams not at all something for this year in the slightest. It screams like, get Dak a second weapon next year, because we don't know how long he's going to be on the shelf with the ham string.

Pan out to me, I'd say pass, fail. If they sign him to another contract, and that's part of it. The financials here because you're getting him for two more years under contract. So anybody who's comparing this now to, let's say, Deontay Johnson, it's not a fair comparison because Johnson, you're getting as a rental, and then you have to decide. You may have to pay him $20 million a year as a free agent at the end of the season. You don't have to make that decision with Mingo. So that fourth round pick. The problem with deadline day is I still haven't had a chance to reset and go over some of this stuff. I want to find out how this conversation happened. If that four was a five, would Could they still have been able to do this deal? Could they have gotten for a fifth-round pick? You never really know. You're playing poker, so I need to know if the Panthers are telling them it's not going to get it done. We already have a fifth plus on the table or something like that. It's got to be a four. And if that's the case, I'd love to know who the five was because I didn't sense a lot of people that were like, Oh, yeah, we were in on him, too.

So they must have been around the fifth. I'm not getting a lot of that right now. If the Panthers played poker here and got more than they should have gotten, good job, Dan Morgan.

Greg, odds are that this is the move made in advance so that Jerry Jones can point to it in deep summer next year when everyone's losing their minds over the fact that they haven't done anything to that point. He's like, Oh, we did this ahead of the deadline. That was for this year. What are the odds, maybe?

When Trey Lance is throwing to Jonathan Mingo wide receiver two next year, it reminds me of that trade.

The fact that Dak Prescott is out for at least four weeks and Trey Lance isn't starting.

But Jerry Jones hinted on that radio show that Trey Lance might be starting or Trey Lance might be involved. Who knows if he's the oneIt should be a note. It should be, I guess.

He's down, boom, Trey's in.

If it's not going to go well, if Cooper Rush is a pretty good backup, if he's that much worse than Cooper Rush, I get it. You have a whole group of people to deal with. I would say success would be, forget another contract because he's only in the second year of his rookie contract. If he's their third or even fourth receiver in 2026, If he's still there and he's a rotational player for him, then that's a success. You're only giving up a fourth-round pick. If he's getting 500, 600 yards a year, something like that, that's a success. But considering what's happening in Carolina, that's not guaranteed. You just mentioned Dak Prescott. He's likely headed to injured reserve, according to Jerry Jones. So any hope that he could be back in the next couple of weeks is basically gone. We don't need to stick on that. We've talked about Dak Prescott enough. That's pretty much it for the trades that struck my fancy. We had a Khalil Davis trade to San Francisco. There were a total of 18 trades throughout the trade deadline period. Then you mentioned eight today, but that pretty much wraps up the trade.

Eighteen from the start of the regular season. Is that what it was?

I believe that's what it is.

Which I think the record was 22, if I'm not mistaken.

Okay, so we're doing it.

We also fell short of, I think 13 was the high watermark the last couple of years for the last day. Hold on, our friends at NFL Research gave to us.

Because we had the Cam Robinson trade. We had the Tredavius White trade. Actually, we will mention that quickly that the Ravens pick him up.

While I looked this up.

He didn't have a lot of playing time for the Rams and just hoping to have some depth there. The official number from the research department, Most players traded since 1995. In 2022, there was 22 teams, 22 players. This is the third most 19 players, so pretty good. 2019 had 21 players. A couple of little other items before we do a couple of winners and losers. Norv Turner is joining the Raiders staff, which is amazing. He's the senior advisor. His son, Scott Turner, who was in Carolina, is going to be the offensive coordinator. Let's actually take a look, too, if you're watching on YouTube for the Jimmy Johnson quote retweet of my tweet. If I have a chance to self-promote, I'm going to. I learned today that Jimmy Johnson follows me on Twitter, and he quote retweeted me. So that was really exciting. He says, Norv is one of the best. We got Norv Turner, Mike, back in an NFL building.

Time out. Did you then retweet Jimmy retweeting you? I did, yes. You got to do that. Hey, look, this famous person just retweeted me. People do that all the time when Mahomes retweets him, which Patrick.Oh.

I could go-One of these days, buddy? I couldn't go even further. I was shocked by this. Never met Jimmy Johnson. No relationship there. He only follows There's 29 people on Twitter.Wow.Oh, you wouldn't look.I'm one of them. Here are some others. Mario Cristobal, the head coach. Dave Wonstat.

All right.

He's in the mix.

Sensing a theme here.

Tony Gonzales. I'm not going to read them all because I don't want to blow his spot of the CEOs. Jason Taylor. I'm just saying these are the types of class of people I'm with. Yeah, give me-Karissa Thompson. Okay. Okay. Rob Righl. A lot of coworkers. Also Fox. Kurt Meneffy.

I'm trying to figure out where you come in. Keep going.

Dan Moreno. Did he perhaps mistake him for a coworker of his? No. Michael Strahan, Troy Akeman, and then me and Peter King, the two Titans of NFL reporting and analysis.Thank you.Hillers.Thank you.Hillers.Thank you, Jimmy Johnson.

Good for you. This is the opposite of the early days of Twitter when Tay Diggs followed me and I was like, Oh, my God. Tay Diggs followed me, and then looked up and saw he was following 100,000 people. That is the opposite of that right now.

No, Schrager, who he works with.

That's interesting. You'd think, Oh, maybe it was a slip of the thumb. But the fact that he retweeted you acknowledged, I follow this dude, and here's some information that I appreciate.

Do we think he runs his account?

Yes, because if you follow who It's not a lot of posts.

But this was worth it. This one was his time to weigh in, and that's a great...

I love it. I love this staff, by the way. Marv Lewis is on this staff. Joe Philbin is on this staff. Rob Ryan is on this staff.

Tom Coughlin.

It's just bringing them all together. Tom Coughlin is involved.

He's an advisor.

This is fun. Norv Turner, I don't know if he's underrated, but he's just forgotten at this point from new fans, but a hell of an offensive coordinator deep into his career.

I've had great conversations with him. He's been around when Scott's been coaching games, and I've had a chance to talk to him, and I'm like, This guy's just a great offensive mind. I wrote a story for the Super Bowl game program last year. I'm already forgetting what the topic was, but I talked to Norv about I think it was the style of quarterbacks that have won Super Bowl. I talked to him about Troy. It was just amazing just to have that conversation with him and just thinking to myself like, This guy's got good football left. I felt that way about Kevin Gilbride when he retired. I'm like, This guy still could be a good coach, but I guess at that point-Who knows?

He might be running the Raiders next year with head coach Scott Turner. Like, crazier things have happened with that organization.

You think that's where a new minority owner, Tom braided wants to go? I think he's...

Well, that's That's a fair point. Finally, the Colts, reportedly, according to Steven Holder of ESPN, turned down teams calling about Anthony Richardson saying he's totally off the table, weren't listening. I thought the offers were that great right now, but it makes sense. It would be weird.

I don't even know that it got to the point of offers, but the Colts are not trying to... Not trying to, they're making it clear that they still believe in Anthony Richardson. Although I may have seen this, and I may have misread this. Did Shane Steiken say that Joe Flack was still the guy for the rest of the season?

He did again, yes.

But for the rest of the season?

That's what he said again, yes.

How many points they score on offense?

I don't believe him because if they keep scoring three points, then he won't be. But it's hard to say, Well, it's week to week. I get it. That's an unstable public way to approach things.

Yeah. There are two benefits of this being out there. First of all, a team, certainly, if someone is benched effectively or needs more development time, whatever, yeah, you got to call the team. Of course, you have to at least check Hey, what's up with this guy? Kind of a thing. I mean, there's crazier calls than this that are happening around the league for star players, for quarterbacks at any given point, right?

But also it's good-Right. Like joining forces with Tom braided when you're Sean Payton and coaching the Saints, joining forces with Tom braided, who is still an active player with the Dolphins. That crazy? Yes. Sure. Nothing will be crazier than that. And that actually happened. Go ahead.

Sorry. Like best sandwiches in Pittsburgh, crazy, right? But I think that this also is a really good thing for the Colts to have out there as well, because it does show, to your point, Mike, it does show that we're definitively no, we're not moving. And similar to Bryce Young, too. You heard that there was some interest in him as well. And certainly people are going to call to see if first-round guys, top five picks are available, and of course, you're going to do that. And if something pops, then it pops. But in this case, super unlikely. And it's good for the Colts to have it out there being like, No, this is our guy going forward. We invested in him. It's very good for everyone to have that out there.

As I'm looking at this, pretend you're a GM, Jordan is great.

Hey, Mike.

They've interviewed women in recent years. Two.

We're getting there. You don't have to take it personally, Mike. It is a fact. It's just that it never happens. It's fine.

Why don't you be a Trailblazer? The hell was I asking you? Pretend you're making an offer for Anthony Richards. What is it? Pretend you're making an offer. You're trying to get Anthony Richerts in away from the call. What is it? In your mind, try to make a fair offer to me, Chris Ballard, for Anthony Richardson. Only draft capital.

I'm also trying to think what team... There's only a few teams that this But to be clear, I have no idea what he is. Okay, maybe the New York Giants. If I'm the New York Giants. Yeah. I would give you a second round pick that... Done. Okay.

Yeah, I'd give you a second round pick that could turn into...

Don't give him more. He just said second.

It's fine. We're prepared to offer you all the free coffee.

Yeah. You got to deal.

In the past, guys who haven't worked out in their first spot, get a second... Josh Rosen got a second round pick.I believe a hell of lotIt was a swap, wasn't it? I can fix him. It was like a late second. But there's been some guys who have not worked out that still get a good trade-Challenge on that, Rosen.I'm not.

I think it was a swap. I think it was like sliding down in in the second round, if I'm not mistaken.

I also want to just make it clear, I still believe in Anthony Richardson. I just think he needs actual development time, which they knew going into it and should have managed things differently for that reason.

I think Melissa Stark had a report about this during the game, about how he was there, he was cheering, he was locked in and all this stuff. That's great. It better not just be for show because that's what he's got to do. He's got to be involved. He's got to be locked in. He's got to be taking mental notes. He's got to be watching everything that Joe Flacko does, even if they're scoring zero points. Just his process and how he goes about things. I was stall long enough for Greg to get his answer. Got it now.

Yeah, not only was it not a pick swap, they gave up more than a second round pick. They gave up a second and a fifth. It was the 62nd overall selection.

No, to hell with that. Give me the full... No. That's it. There's the eight-pen. That's it. No. See, now you're going to... It was definitely a slide down. It wasn't like...

And that GM, by the way, that GM is still- Chris Greer. Still running the team. Chris Greer. So he survived that trade. All right, quickly, some winners. He's moving on before the. Do we have any winners and losers here before we get going? I'm I'm going to just rapid fire. You can throw out anyone. First, the Chiefs in D-Hop.

Come on, we watched the game, right? Come on, that's great.

Let's throw up the DeAndre Hopkins tweet that he sent out on Tuesday.

I actually love it. Oh, you know that pulled at your hard strings there, Greg.

He sent out the Randy Moss, Tom braided, hugging each other. Oh, I love that. Now, Randy Moss was an offseason trade, but it was for a fifth round pick, so some similarities there.

Let's go. Now, Greg might need a minute, so I I will carry the show.

I don't need a minute. Anyone stand out to you as a winner?

Yeah, I was going to pick the Chiefs as well as a winner. I like what the Cardinals did. It wasn't a huge move, but getting Barron Browning in, just seeing if he's a fit. Guys from that coaching tree have often connected with spare outside linebackers. This is a fan geo thing. Get your extra outside linebacker and turn him into a situational rusher, an efficient rusher. You can tell that that's the pattern that Jonathan Gannon is trying to follow here. I liked it. I thought it was settled, but I like that move.

The question is who won the Trade Desk? Yeah, anyone. While I was looking at it, I was completely wrong. Yeah, you're right. They got a straight second round pick.

I mean, we've established that. We moved on. Established that... No, not that we've moved on. More that you don't remember draft pics either. I got you.

I don't remember. Anything involving the draft, apparently, I just hold it for a little bit and then I move on.

That's healthy, actually. It's really healthy to me, frankly.

Zadaria Smith, very healthy. I'm going to throw out a He's just a personal winner. To go from the Browns to the Lions, the most exciting team in the NFL, maybe going.

The Steelers are interesting to me. There were two moves that really makes a lot of sense for them. At what point do we go from, Well, here's Mike Tom on extending his streak of winning seasons or non-losing seasons to this team, the contender.

He's trying to win, Mike. That's a great point because it's like they're going from stable to pushing, right? That's what these moves say to me. No, it's not like you got the receiver who still looks like the former version of himself. Maybe he could get some of that back, and that'd be great for him because it seems like he went through a lot up in New York recently on a personal level with teammates. Then also bringing in that rotational rusher. This is a team that actually thinks that it can push harder than even or median or just that not losing record. They actually seem like they're pushing here, which I think is a vibe.

I thought you were going to say, When is Mike Toming going to start taking some heat for not winning any playoff games? Because I can tell you locally, they're a little sick of as much... There is a group of the fan base. It's like, We're sick of being the 9-8 team. So it's good. They're trying to be better.

I made the point on Good Morning Football this morning that I think they're dangerous because their coaching staff is so good right now and what they've been able to do. It's one thing for Mike Tomin to go into the room and make the gutsy call and know he's on an island and say, We're starting Russell Wilson. I don't if anybody in this room agrees with me or not. Then it's another thing for that coaching staff to then say, All right, he's the boss. We got to do it, and then come up with the best possible game plans to get this guy moving in the right direction and limiting his mistakes, which is a big part of what they've been doing and not letting him start to try to do too much. Danny Smith and Terrell Austin, who I'm old enough to remember Terrell Austin being a hot head coaching candidate. Maybe it's time to start mentioning that again. I just feel like from a coaching staff perspective, the question was, who is the biggest threat to the Chiefs? I'm thinking on any given day, that coaching staff can get that team ready to play against anybody the way that they've been coaching.

I like that take. I think the commanders as an organization are winners because even from an ownership level, they made them trade the picks a year ago. They had a vision of getting the right guy in the building. They got Scott Peters into the building. Now, they have a surplus of picks and rookies. They feel like, Hey, this is actually a time to move. And they make a move that's a long-term plan already turning into a shorter-term plan, and they acted and they got a good player. We're winners. We got Mike Garafolo in the studio. We got a lot of trades. I'm going to go just a few losers. Ravens Defense didn't add anyone. I was hoping they would add someone in the secondary. Chargers didn't add anyone. I don't know if they knew.

Didn't do it for the Ravens?

Oh, my bad.

You meant pass rush, though, I think, right? Yes. You wanted to Pass Rush.

I meant more of an impact player, but that's fair. That wasn't nice of me. Aziz O'Gillari But he's still with the Giants. He could have been like Zadaria Smith, going to a great team.

I don't think he's upset about that, though, because Dexter Lawrence is tearing it up. You've got Kavon Thibodeau coming back. You got Brian Burns coming back. He could then not receive as much attention, pad the stats, get into the offseason. I think we're going to be sitting here in March. Maybe I'll be sitting here, maybe I'll be home. I don't know. Haven't decided where I'm going to do free agency from, but maybe we'll be sitting somewhere and saying that Aziz O'Gillari is this year's like, Whoa, that guy got that money? I think it could be big money for Aziz O'Gillari, and I think staying with the Giants could actually help him.

Great point. That is why you are the insider. Getting Mike Garafolo out of here. Appreciate you, Jordan. You will be back with me after the break, and we're going to talk about a great TNF game, Ravens and bangles. Back on NFL Daily with my friend Jordan Rodriegue of The Athletic, talking about a TNF game that's been on my radar since the very beginning of the season. Now, that's partly because I wanted to make sure I got the best booking possible for the TNF recap, and I did. I locked down nick Wesling early. Big get. But also just because these two teams only play awesome games, they already played one awesome game this season, Jordan. And yeah, the Bengals record isn't as good as you would expect at this point in the season. Frankly, neither is the Ravens for how good a team they are. That actually makes the game bigger for the Cincinnati Bengals. They need this one in Baltimore.

The stakes are so high for a Cincinnati Bengals team trying to once and for all this season, ride the ship and really start to put things together. And also for a Ravens team, trying to just dominate people, to establish that we know how to win in November and keep rolling that wagon all the way into the postseason. There's maybe some very sneaky The MVP dialog here on the line as well. I am so heck and fired up for this game, Greg. Oh, my God.

I am too. Al, Kirk, I better not even hear- Bring it, Al. Come on. Like a minute of apathy or complaining no matter how long this game is going. But these two guys deliver. Look, last time, yeah, 41 to 38 back in week six. Burro had five touch downs in that game, almost 400 yards. Lamar had four touch downs through the air in that game, 348 yards. It's funny because I see the Ravens as they're obviously a Super Bowl contender. Maybe that's still the Super Bowl favorite in the AFC, even if they don't have home field. And yet if they lost this game, which would be totally understandable, a division rival, you split games, they'd be at six and four. Who knows what's going to happen with this Stealers team? And they're in the morass. So where do you want to start? Just offensive, defensive matchups, because Lamar versus this Bengals defense on paper is probably the biggest mismatch of of the game? Do you disagree?

Yeah. I mean, I trust Lamar Jackson and this Ravens offense far more than I trust what's been a really wobbly good, decent to good against bad teams, Bengals defense to sometimes looks like they're putting things together, also seeming like they're aging out a little bit too quickly. Yeah, this is going to be super interesting because right now, Lamar Jackson is at a 68.2 completion percentage. He's playing lights out and including some extremely tough throws and throws out of structure. But it's all clicking between himself and Todd Munkin, the offensive coordinator, and his receivers. And in that scheme, everyone's eating and everyone's benefiting Derrick Henry, obviously just dominating people already over a thousand yards this season, everything is starting to feel like it clicks together against a bangles defense that we just don't know who they are week over week. And the scheme itself and Lamar's ability and the receiver and Derrick Henry widening things out, making people play differently. Lamar Jackson has targeted a wide open receiver on 32.8% of his pass attempts, the season's second highest in the NFL. That's going to be tough.

Who's higher? I'm shocked. Is it Jared Goff? Yeah, it's got to be Jared Goff.

I was like, I was a total guess.

I'm just thinking of what offense could be run better. It's no slight, obviously, to Goff or Lamar. I think it really hit home last week. Vance Joseph admitted, he said it out loud, we wanted to force them to pass because you're just picking your poison. And so it's why this Derrick Henry-Lamar combination is so mutually beneficial.

It's just wonderful.

That a team would actually have to feel like they have to sell out to stop the run, which I get it, but also, That's not a great idea. That's pretty much what we saw actually in the first match. I went back and checked some of my notes for that game, too. And the Bengals did blitz a lot, which I was surprised, and they did get a lot of pressure on Lamar Jackson, tried to get the ball out of his hand, and that's just not working. There's no perfect way to attack Lamar right now or this team because he's better against zone than he used to be. You saw that a week ago against Denver. The game has slowed down for him. He's in the matrix right now. Everything is just in absolute slow motion. But I'm the other way. I actually, as crazy as it is, as bad as the Bengals are defending the run, if you were trying to make a choice, I'd rather die slowly against the Ravens and just see if we bow up and maybe just get them into some third down situations because counting on Lamar to not beat you through the air is dumb.

Here's a stat, and then I'll hand it off to you. This is a lot on Lamar. But FTN, where Aaron Shatz works, where there's DVOA. They also have defensive yards above average adjusted for the defense they played. Lamar is at 1,114 yards for the season above average. The next closest quarterback is actually Jaden Daniels at 6,76. The gap between Lamar, number one, and Jaden Daniels, number two, is the same as the gap between Jaden Daniels, number two, and the 16th best quarterback in the league. And that's not even counting his running ability. So that's just how good this offense is right now. They're the eighth best offense through nine weeks in all the years that they've measured it over at FTN, too. So it's like, I don't know. I'd rather die slowly, personally.

You mentioned... I mean, yeah.

Not in life. In life, quickly, but on the football field, slowly.

Well, hopefully, quickly, but over a long period of time, be on the planet for a long time, Greg, please don't put that in the universe. But I think, yes, you want to try to make them at least see what happens if you try to make them run, because like I said before, it's just clicking for this passing attack in ways that even struggled a little bit prior to the start of the season, and that's only going to get more cohesive. They're only going to get more reps and better reps for each other. And where I think you might have a little bit of an argument, a case to make for the Bengals defense there is even though they've been really erratic and just they're number 25 in DVOA for a reason, right? But they're not missing a ton of tackles on the first and second level. Now, if that is Derrick Henry enters the picture, that meme of Big Bird kicking down the door. If Derrick Henry enters your life in such fashion, I don't know if you're not missing tackles in that way, particularly when we see some of the stuff they did at the beginning of the with Lamar running the ball as well and that misdirection.

It's just so hard to stop this team and to pick which one is going to hurt the least.

Because I remember in that first game, I actually thought they had some of the run pass option plays defended pretty well, and they would still get six yards.

Still staying ahead of the down.

There were sometimes where I thought Lamar Jackson made the wrong read. That was one of the games where it really clicked, how they've got the cheat code where he actually made the wrong read. He should have kept the or he should have handed it off. And it's still getting five yards, even if everyone's in good position. If you want to blitz them like they did the first time around, and I doubt they'll run the same game plan because that's not what Lou and Romo was going to do. Justice Hill is a very valuable player in this offense. They killed the Broncos on a couple of times that they sent pressure here, and then they let him out of the backfield as a little just outlet for Lamar Jackson. There's just a lot of ways that they're going to beat you. The pass rush is That's been a big concern for the Bengals. It's really Trey Hendrikson and not much else. The Ravens have been surprisingly good as a pass protection unit all season, Ronny Stanley having a nice season. On the flip side, are you a little worried, and we don't know if Orlando Brown is available for this game, that Cody Ford and Amarius Mims could be the starting tackles for Joe Burrow in this game.

I think that you could see that they were a little worried about some of the ways that their pass protection was starting to break down a little bit because they were trying play in heavier personnel over the last couple of weeks. They were trying to do different things that you don't always see from a Zack Taylor offense to get just a little bit more help in different ways, not only get more eligible on the field for Joe Burrow, but also chipping when you need to. But they're going to have an issue with that because Eric All, the tight end that they really, really liked, Torn ACL, he was... Paul Dainer at the Athletic was writing about how he was one of the reasons why they could feel more comfortable just adding extra protection and extra things. Joe Burrow is playing at an otherworldly, unreal level, Greg. It feels like he forced himself to go to that place a little bit. Right.

It's maybe a dark place, but it's a place that has led to a lot of production. Let's actually listen to Joe Burrow talking about, yeah, he just isn't necessarily happy, even after a five-touchdown performance. Yeah, I think just how this season has gone, knowing what's ahead of us, knowing what we're going to have to do to get back into this, one win isn't going to make or break our season. So I'm going to strive for perfection every day in every game. So until that happens, what's there to be happy about? Hey, look, he just wasn't happy. I love that they asked him about that on Wednesday, and he was like, Oh, I guess I should work on that.

He locked out. He was like, he doesn't remember Yeah, he's like, I didn't know that I was making a face like that.

I guess I should worry about my body language a little more. They also asked him about the Khalil Herbert trade, which let's talk about quickly here. And they just said, I'm glad we went out and tried to get better. Just very stone-face, it's like, We need to get better. I wasn't expecting the Bengals to make a lot of moves at the trade deadline, though. I did like that they tried to improve their backfield because Zack Moss is expected to miss the rest of the season. That's a lot to ask of Chase Brown to be their only running back there, and Cleo Herbert can give them a little bit of a hammer. They're going to need to be able to run the ball. If Tee Higgins is not available for this game, I have a feeling he is. I don't know. I don't know anything, but in a scenario where they were maybe trying to push him to play last week or not, and you got two games in five days, This is the game that you save Tee Higgins for because you mentioned it, no Eric All, leaving extra guys in for protection. Suddenly, that receiver group, it's a big fall off.

Mike Gysicki has more yards this season, and it's actually played great, than Tee Higgins, which is crazy. Yeah.

To your point, yes on Tee Higgins. If he's going to be ready to go, this has got to be the game to be ready to go. Joe Burrow wanted to circle back on that for a minute. Yes, please. Because a couple of weeks ago, I was joking around saying, Oh, man, he's in a really dark place because he was quiet. He's totally in this silent rage in his press conference. He was very quiet and low tone, and you could tell he was just internally seething. And I saw that and I was like, he's going to snap. One of these days, he's going to snap. And then the serial killer vibe is going to just come out of him, and it did. And you watch that game and you watch how he was on the sideline and how he was talking around like Jermaine Burton at a certain point, who was a scratch because he missed practice on Saturday. So back to the point of the pass catchers. You're seeing him try to work with other guys, get other guys open. Obviously, Jamar is going to be who Jamar is. But Mike Kisicki has stepped up in certain ways, particularly when the bangles are attacking the seam.

I think that actually could quietly be a big difference in this game because we know that attention is going to go toward the big name receiver/receiver if Tee Higgins can play. But Mike Kisicki, with the 100 yards game last week, I think we'll see more of him because the Ravens passing defense, which has let them down a lot. And yes, they traded for Troy White. I don't expect him to be a huge part of that secondary right away, if even for the long term, just coming off the Achilles, but good depth just in case. But the Ravens have allowed the second most yards per attempt and the second most EPA on passes in the seams this season. And it's interesting because Joe Burrow targets that seam and those seam routes at the third highest rate in the NFL. So I do think this could quietly be a Joe Burrow Mike Gusecki, continuation of what they did last week.

Guesicke keeps making incredibly athletic improbable catches.

Just like he did at Penn State.

Joe Burrow, just like he did for that one season in Miami where he was just next level, and he got paid for it, and I'm happy that he did. And I'm happy that he ended up in a place like Cincinnati, because we just would have never known that Mike Guesicke still had this in him. And I think Joe Burrow is just feeling... First of all, he's moving so well. He just creates space and time on the field in a way that reminds me a lot of Mahomes, but he does it in his own way, where he creates open receivers by the way that he moves in the pocket. I think he's just so frustrated that this is the season that I actually am healthy and everything should be happening for us. I've been waiting for a season like this, and it's not really happening. And it's not because of him, although they have had the ball late a handful of times on offense and actually haven't gotten the ball done. That's why I was annoyed when Bangos fans were like, Hey, were these amount of plays away from him being the favorite for MVP? I was like, They've had chances on offense to win at the end of these games.

Unfortunately, their defense is bad enough that that's maybe making Burrow frustrated. And then Tee Higgins isn't healthy. And you even look at the box score in the game the first time they played the Ravens. It's really all Jamar and Tee Higgins. And you really notice the last couple of weeks, defenses took away the deep from Jamar Chase, and they were still able to be really productive, but it wasn't the same. They're just not the same unless you have both of them because this is a star-driven team. I don't think it's a scheme-driven team.

I would agree with that. That's a really good That's a good point, actually. I would definitely-Actually? Yeah. Well, not actually. I don't want to cut you off.

It was a really great point. As Dave Damoschek likes to point out, everyone check out his new show, by the way, The Sheck Show.

I just followed him on Instagram.

He's the best. I just did The Shek Show this week, and he's great. He always pointed out, like when someone says, Actually, that's a red flag because they don't normally think you.

No, I was thinking like- In this case, you don't normally think I make a good point, but actually, this time I did. Well, not to go sideways, actually. Please. But you Continually make good points. That just stopped me in my tracks for a second because I'm like, if I'm going to sum up why this Bengals offense has just not... I mean, without the guys that they have on the field, you just don't... And without Burrow, you You just don't get it. You don't see it, certainly not from the head coach. And so that's where I paused for a minute because I was like, Oh, that's a really good way of phrasing that. Without their bona fide dudes on the field, including Joe Burrow, lifting, it seems like trying to lift this defense out of its inconsistency, you just don't have that faith.

And he could do it. He cooked the Ravens last time, but he did have one interception in that game, and that wasn't totally the difference because there's a possession in overtime. I mean, Lamar fumbled the He actually reminded me a little bit of Joe Burrow. He was very upset after that game, even though they won. Yes. But it could be one of those games where just one pick either way. I can't quite believe that the Ravens defense is this bad. I keep expecting it to start getting better because that's been the history. But it is a different coaching staff. Marcus Williams comes back into the lineup last week at safety, but right now, they are 14th overall on defense, 23rd against the pass. They're a good run stopping team. The The Angels are not a team that will bang their head against the wall if it's not working. They're just going to throw the ball like crazy, and they're going to pick on Brandon Stevens, probably back there, or Darius Washington. There's a lot of spots there, and their pass rush hasn't been good enough. So I actually think he should be fine. Cody Ford and Amarius Mims should probably be fine against the Ravens in their pass rush.

You heard them looking around, trying to maybe potentially test the trade deadline in that, but they're struggling in that phase. I think either or in this game, Greg, as we get ready to make our picks.

Too early in the week, I'm not ready.

Either super high scoring on both sides, because I could totally see that, super high scoring because everyone just throws it. Obviously, you're going to try to, like you said, die slowly, potentially, if you're Lou. But I think ultimately everyone's just throwing the hell out of the ball, and we could get a high scoring game, or it could be totally the opposite. We're both defensive coordinators with some of the familiarity. This is like their kitchen sink game plan. You know how Jonathan Gannon, for example, every once in a while, he has this kitchen sink game plan where he just throws all this weird stuff at you, and it's not something that you're used to whatever because this is AFC North. This is going to be a weird one.

I could see I can't say that, but I feel like these defenses can't handle the kitchen sink game right now. They've tried it. There's just not a lot of cohesion. I'm at the point in the year where I know the Ravens, or I think the Ravens will probably lose games or a game the rest of the season, but I'm not going to pick it. I'm picking them to win every single game.

Oh, 100% with you. Oh, you are. I'm 100 % there with you. In fact, because earlier in our Thursday shows and our previews, I was trying to be a little risky with the picks and think, Oh, well, maybe this could... I'm like, No, team is good. Pick that team. Ravens are a wagon. Pick the Ravens. I'm picking the Ravens by a TD, actually. High-scoring game, 35, 28.

Oh, wow. Okay, I'll go 30, 27. Not quite as high as last time around, but quite high. It comes down to the end. Bengals aren't done if they lose this game, but they feel like they're going to be in a different tier of scrapping and trying to get to that seven seed if they lose this game. They'll be in primetime because of the flex decision in a week as well against the chargers. They'll have a little extra rest after this Thursday night. They're not going anywhere. I don't think their season's done, but there's something about this team. They weren't having fun coming into the season with the contract stuff, both the receivers, and they don't seem like they're having that much fun now. It just they feel a little 23 eagles to me. I don't think they're going to collapse like the eagles, but it's like the expectations are tough in life. You don't want to have expectations. I think they had too much expectation.

If you're a frustrated team, I got to say there's a lot of cool atmospheres in the NFL, especially for night games. It's hard for me to find one that's cooler than a night game home at Baltimore.

I've never been.

It's sick, dude. It's very Gothic vibe. It's just very... And it's loud. And if you're a frustrated team on the other side, it's only going to get more frustrating with that crowd.

Okay, so we are both taking the Ravens. Fun show. Thank you to Mike Garafolo for joining us. Thank you to Jordan Rodrieg for making time in between her busy press conference schedule. We will be back on the Wednesday Preview Show. Might drop a little early this week since the Trade Deadline 1 dropped early, maybe the Preview 2. Patrick Klabon, Steve Weiss will be in the studio previewing all the games. Look, when we're bringing the Gothic vibes, you know football is back.