Transcript of Lena Waithe New

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Lily Padman, and today we have Lena Waithe. Oh, I love Lena Waithe. She's an actor, a producer, and a screenwriter. She created The Chi. She was on Master of None.

We loved that show.

Yes. Queen Slim, Boomerang, Them. This is the final season of The Chi, uh, now streaming on Paramount+. You know, Lena, you're gonna really fall in love with her if you've never heard her chat. She's just— is sweet and as the kids.

That's right.

Yeah, please enjoy Lena Waithe.

Holy—

what?

Holy options! No, no, you were great.

Were you offered enough options? Because look how many I have.

I know, that's how I usually am. That's how I usually am.

I just I'll just do some. Oh, 'cause you brought her a cream top and she was like, I'm not fucking with that much dairy.

I don't drink coffee.

You don't drink coffee?

What about tea?

Sometimes.

Is it caffeine in general you don't get down with?

I don't know if I need any kind of caffeine. He's like, he's already locked in. He's already like, you talking to the wrong guy. Caffeine, caffeine, caffeine, caffeine.

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Well, he doesn't need it, but he drinks it.

I can't do it. Yeah. I don't wanna be dependent on it.

It's fun. It's something to look forward to.

Do you identify at all with the many, many things that come across your Instagram about ADHD? Because for me, I'm like, ooh, yeah. Mm, uh.

I don't have ADHD. It's interesting, the person who I share my life, she says—

She's already on here, so I don't know what to tell you.

I know, I know. I like to watch my podcast, so I watch y'all as well. I'm watching the podcast, like, watching on my phone, and I'm like watching a Ken Burns documentary at the same time. It's like I'm doing that and this and that. Sure. And she's just like, how? How are you able to do this and follow what's happening here in this conversation and listen to this documentary? I don't know. It's a thing.

My question is, do you think you are consuming both? At like what percentage?

That's a good question.

Because you know, they've debunked the myth of multitasking, right? Like there's been enormous studies done where they measure the time spent and then they have proven that if you had just done one at a time and then the next one, like this is already kind of known.

Okay.

But I'm not saying that's the case here. I'm just wondering what percentage you think you're—

She thinks it is. Yeah. Uh, you know, the truth is, here's the thing. I will sometimes say, okay, put the phone down. Let me focus. Uh-huh. On this. I think it's really about not just attention span, which we all have to work at expanding. We have to actively do that. But I think that it's also about giving something your undivided attention.

That could almost be your rating system. Like if you had a public platform where you rated things, it would be like, what thing did you shut down all things for? So this season, what show you were like, you know what, we're putting this over here.

The thing that I'm like really locked in is Half Man.

Half Man. What one is that?

That's the gentleman who did Baby Reindeer.

Oh, oh, oh, oh.

This is his sophomore effort. HBO.

It just came out.

Just came out. There's 2 episodes up right now. I think both are pretty exquisite.

Exquisite.

Nice word. Yes. You know, Baby Reindeer locked us all in in a real way. But I think, and I got to tell him this, I was really grateful to be able to do that at the Globes. I stopped him and I said, you made me want to be a more vulnerable artist.

Oh, that's a lovely compliment.

No, when he goes into the whole thing about he's in that fucked up crazy zone of drugs and fucking and that whole— I was like, oh wow, man, I'm so impressed he's going here. Yeah, it's like an addict. I was like, oh yes.

And it's true.

Yeah, well, we're all addicted to something. Our vices sometimes look different, and some are more socially acceptable than others, you know? It's like cheating is a vice. Being unfaithful, I think it can be a vice.

We'd say that's low acceptance, right? Yeah, we would agree. Correct. Universally reviled, universally practiced. Estelle.

Estelle. Esther Perel.

Esther Perel. I fucked it up on both sides.

You just like brought her all together.

I made her a one-name artist.

You're like, look, let me glob you here.

Let me make you worldwide.

Oh, be like, I got you. But also it's like shopping is a vice. Socially acceptable.

Social media is a vice.

Absolutely. But socially acceptable in a way, because the funny thing is people on their phones posting on social why you shouldn't be on social and folks are watching it like, yeah, but I'm getting this message on the very thing you telling me to get off of.

We had the CEO of Instagram on and he gave this— First of all, Live, live.

Who's my guy with the glasses who always sends in the thing about the updates and stuff? Who's talking about this?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's our guy Adam Mosseri.

Okay.

Yeah. And I love him.

I like him a lot.

And he's so thoughtful.

Very.

Like, he's the dude you should pray is running that thing. Yeah. And we have him on, we have this great thoughtful thing, and I challenge him on every damn thing.

Wow.

And people are on the goddamn app telling me, how could you platform him? You can't support this. And I'm like, you're on the app. You cannot have this position.

Wow. Yes.

Of course. Because they have to rationalize. Yeah.

They're on there just to shut it down.

I think in their mind, they're going to take down the very thing that they're helping to keep alive.

Okay, so we love the new show Madman.

Horseman.

Half Man.

Half Man.

It's too much coffee. Too much coffee. I just really like that show a lot in terms of how he's exploring masculinity and what relationships can look like between two men that don't necessarily have to be— both of them have to be queer. But I think he also was exploring versions of that in Baby Reindeer as well. But I think he definitely is sort of an artist that's making television in a way that is forcing us to pay attention in a way that I don't know if we always do. The fact that this was something that was not proper America Netflix, this was Netflix that was, like, coming out of the UK. And as he said to me, he was like, "I don't think Netflix thought it was gonna be this huge hit." That speaks to the disconnect between, I think, streamers and audiences.

I know.

And it's sort of like, what do audiences actually want? What do they need?

This is the beauty, though. There's downsides to the streamers. You have a show that's about to be on for 8 seasons. If you had that on network TV in 1980, you'd be buying a baseball bat baseball team.

I lived through the whole thing.

Okay, exactly. The one upside of it is, yeah, they're gonna make Baby Reindeer.

That's Netflix.

No one there believes in it, but they're gonna make it because they're gonna make 350 shows this year, right? And then that does give the opportunity for all these things to pop. Beef comes out of nowhere, and all these shows come out of nowhere that no one was betting on in like a network way. And that deserves acknowledgment. Like, it's taken a toll on a lot of aspects of this industry, but that one part is amazing. It's like they switched to niche And then niche became mega hits sometimes.

No, that's true. And it's about like, what becomes mega hits? Why does it become a mega hit? I'm always fascinated by that. Are we creating stars anymore or just sort of depending on the ones that already have the money to carry a show that might not be that great?

Well, stars also are becoming stars in a different way. True, true. Like, not just because they're on TV or in movies or in music. I was looking at all the pictures from the Met Gala this morning and I was like, I know I'm like getting old.

You're like, who are these people?

But I don't know any of these people.

Yeah. It's like being 30 watching the Billboard Awards.

I know. I was like, wait, is it me or is it that the stars are from TikTok, from things that I'm not on, but they're not on my TV, I don't think.

Right. I think the word star is sort of becoming interesting. The word celebrity, public figure. What does that mean? Because you can become a celebrity in a week, but then you're a has-been that never was.

Yeah. Yeah.

In like a year. It's so fleeting.

I know.

You're like, you're like, Lita, I'm sorry about that. You've done good. You've made it.

You're fine.

Back and forth. We have this friend, I love him so much, Gordon Keith. He's on a popular Dallas sports radio show and he has been for like 25 years. He was visiting last time we were talking about AI and everything. And he said to Chris and I, he goes, you know, you guys might be among the last mortal stars.

Mortal?

Yeah. Like the future stars will be AIs. Like you might be in history the last of the mortal stars. And Chris goes, oh my God, that's so funny. The last of the mortal stars.

Final season and one of the strongest seasons of The Comeback is telling us the future, which The Comeback has always done.

That's your first acting job too, right?

That was technically, yes. Aziz always tries to take credit for my first TV. I'm like, actually, Michael Patrick King, Lisa Kudrow, they threw me in there one episode. Very grateful to Alison Jones, who discovered me.

We love Alison Jones.

Yeah. What did they predict this season?

That AI is gonna take over all of the shit. They've been such ahead of the game, and The Comeback is just sort of one of those great shows. I was honored to be asked by New York Times about what are the 100 most important television shows It was a very tricky task. This is not definitive list. They just came out with 100 Greatest Songwriters Ever, movies, all that kind of stuff. So I was honored to be at the table for the television one. And I was really happy to speak about The Comeback because it was on when I was in college, the first season. And I could see in that moment what they were doing with comedy, and that was so unique and so special. 'Cause I was already liking Sex and the City. I was already a Friends fan. But to see these two brains come together and make this show about an aging actress in Hollywood and what she had to go through they were ahead of the curve in terms of reality television in that first season. And then in the second season, getting into the premium cable type thing and what that would ultimately be.

And for this third and final season, I mean, now the seasons are spread out between like a decade. Which is so brilliant because the first season was so beloved. And so many people talked about it that 10 years later, HBO's like, "Yeah, do a second season." And now 10 years later, they're doing the third and final. And it is this sort of trifecta of Hollywood and what happens to it. You know, like All About Eve, you know, it's sort of, "Oh, this is what happens." There's a person that's there that we look at and we love, and then she's not there. She eventually gets put out to pasture and there's someone that comes in to replace. And it's cyclical. It's sort of telling you, you can only be on the mountaintop for so long because you can't breathe the air up there. So you have to start climbing a new mountain or you, you'll die at the top of the one you made it to.

Everything's driven by young people. This is also a reality. I'll talk to young people. I have a 13-year-old.

Oh man.

We have friends. The people that they don't know break your heart. I mean, literally the people they don't know.

The movies they haven't seen. The movies. They're like Shawshank Redemption.

What?

Well, that wouldn't even, no, I wouldn't even take that swing. You would say, okay, you like I mean, Blazing Saddles?

Like, what are we doing?

That one's probably a no-go for most young people.

What are we doing? What's the bridge? What's the bridge? It is up to the parents. The parents gotta get in there. Like, my mom made sure I liked Prince.

Right. Although that's not a hard job.

It was. I didn't want it at first when I was a young person.

Really?

In the car, couldn't hear it. I'm in college in Chicago. He comes to the city. She makes me go. It's one of the things I'm very grateful for. She's like, you gotta come to the concert. I said, I don't like— I don't hear it. I go, I'm like baptized. I'm like, oh, get me Got it. And then I go out and buy every record, which took me like a long time cuz he was just releasing music every week since he came out.

I guess you're 9 years younger than me, so that explains a little bit. I couldn't have not loved Prince. You know, I was probably in 5th grade when Purple Rain came out. You were either into Michael Jackson or Prince. And to me, Prince was dangerous. Also Michael. And I liked him. I was like, okay, that guy's dangerous. I'm into him.

See, like Michael was like perfect for like, this is gonna sound so wrong, but he's perfect for like if you're a kid.

Yes.

Sorry.

Yeah, I know. I know.

I know. Like you.

The headline. You don't want to talk about your partner, but not use that mic. And Michael Jackson's perfect if you're a kid. You tell your brother, says, good news and bad news, we did not talk about— So we did avoid one warning.

If you're a kid, like Michael Jackson.

No, I know, it is, it is magic.

I mean, there is a reason he is so complicated. He was half human.

He seems trapped in his—

Smokey Robinson has this really great quote. He said Michael Jackson had to be a man when he was a kid, and when he became a man, he was a kid again.

Yeah, yeah, I co-sign on all that. What I don't co-sign on, on that, that is somehow a justification for the behavior that followed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't think he was justified. He was just like, that was an observation.

I think we, we say that, like, I definitely do think that's right. I think his childhood was stolen from him, and then he lived it out as an adult in Neverland Ranch.

I mean, literally creating—

but let's not take him off the hook. Yeah, then we'll take a Big digression. Perfect. So I had never met you. I had seen you on Master of None.

Yes.

I liked you on Master of None. Thank you. I loved the Thanksgiving episode. I remember I had no idea you were a writer. And in fact, not till much later, I thought maybe that was your first time writing.

Right.

Like, I didn't know your history.

That was my fear, actually, about doing the show. Because I was like, oh, these people are going to think I'm an actor who's trying to write. But actually, I'm a writer that you want to act.

Yes.

Yes. And he's like, write. Yeah, I don't care. Call me.

You were already a staff writer on Bones at that point, right?

Right. Yeah, I did that because I needed a job. And a few other shows.

I met you in real life. We were at this event and I'll add, I'm so excited you're a 2 PM interview because that means Delta will be here when we get done. Nice. So I was with Delta when we met and something happened between you two. I don't want to speak for you, but instant there was an explosion of charisma and connection.

Yeah, instant.

I think the first thing she said to you was, I love your voice or something.

Yeah.

And then I saw this side of you, and she has that effect on people. Not that it took a lot, but I saw a side of you immediately that was like, "Oh, I love this person." Yeah. I gotta say, of all the stop-and-chats I've had in my life, I rank that very high in like, "Oh yeah, I really love this person." Wow. Yeah. It was a very memorable hour-and-a-half hang.

No, it was clear that you're raising kids that know who they are. That was, I think, very interesting to be talking to a young kid who was almost like fully formed.

She was probably 9 then, yeah.

Right. That's why it throws you off.

Fucked up, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 'Cause I'm going like, "What?" You know, to be a girl with a husky voice and have one her whole life, there was sort of this thing of like her having like almost her own sort of voice, her scratchy voice.

Yes, hers was real scratchy then too.

Yeah, yeah.

So, sort of like, "I am." There's the two girls with cool voices with Chad.

I'm like, "Yeah, we see each other.

We see each other." I see, I hear you.

I hear you, literally and figuratively. It was a lovely meeting.

It was lovely. I really enjoyed learning about you today. Starts in Chicago. Yeah. 1984, May 17th. We're about to have a birthday.

Yeah, damn right. About to have my Jackie Robinson year, about to be 42.

How do you feel about aging? You're very accomplished. That helps.

Yeah. Like, have an Emmy. I think I love it because, you know, it's interesting. Oprah did this really interesting episode back in the day with these amazing women who kind of were known for being beauties in their heyday. Like, it was Diane Carroll, like Lauren, the models, model— Nicole? No, no, no, no. Lauren— I'm forgetting, but she was like a model with like a gap tooth or whatever. But she just had these women on there who were just really known for their beauty, and she asked them what they feared the most, and they all said aging. Oprah was kind of taken aback by that because Oprah said, that's not a thing that scares me. And Oprah in that moment literally is having this lightbulb moment in front of people. She's saying, oh, I think it's because I'm not worried about a beauty type of thing fading.

Yes.

That's not what her value proposition was.

That's not where my value was.

Also, Black people age better.

Well, this is true. This is true. Something in the deal. Yeah, absolutely.

Oh yeah.

Don't get us started.

There's very few perks, but that's one of them.

You have to deal with some shit. But also, I'm a person in an interesting way that doesn't concern myself with the male gaze.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so there's this level of, I don't need to look younger than I am. I don't need to appeal to a certain audience. I just want to get wiser and evolve and grow and learn and know something more today than I did yesterday.

There's a lot of factors too. I would argue, and correct me if I'm wrong, the older Black woman has a matriarchal position that's very cherished and valued. I know you lived with Grandma, right? At some point, right? Grandma means a lot.

True.

Also knowing you're aging into a role of great relevance and purpose versus a lot of the white ladies are just being thrown out to pasture.

Now we're cherished. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I think there's a lot of different things in the mix.

Yeah. I think to me it's just whatever somebody says, oh, I hate getting older. I would say, what's the alternative?

Alternative.

Yeah, exactly. It's better than the alternative for sure. But it's funny that you bring up the male gaze part because we just had this crazy experience last week where we interviewed some of the listeners and we had this man on to tell a story and I was like, oh my God, he's so hot. He graduated from the same college as me and I was like, I graduated in 2009. When did you graduate? And he graduated in 2021 and I was like, You had a moment. Oh my God. I had like a real— I'm old. I'm, I guess, a cougar. I hated it. And I don't ever walk around thinking that. I never walk around thinking I'm old. It was because I'm in front of this young, hot guy.

She's 53, by the way. I don't know if you know. She didn't say her age.

Fast math. Okay. I'm 38.

But we look great.

You're killing it.

Yeah, you're crushing it. I was pumped. I was like, oh good, we're in a phase where she finally like is into fucking a younger dude. Like, let's get on with that. I mean, and that's not where it went.

No, it just made me feel so old and irrelevant. And I was like, oh wow, I normally never feel that way in life. I'm pretty confident. But then in juxtaposition to this young guy. So when you say male gaze, there is something very real about that.

Yeah. Like, I'm not really concerned about that. Yeah. Yeah.

I feel like the door's open for me to tackle something that's so dangerous to tackle. It is funny that you say, like, I'm not concerned with the male gaze. And I gotta say, leading into me meeting you. I think the reason I was shocked we got along so instantly well, by my estimation, was like, I'm nervous around lesbians because I'm so used to my value proposition being you might like me. And so like, for me to enter a situation where it's like, I know you're not gonna like me, capital L like me, and I have to confront how much capital L like me means to me. That's And how much of my own personal self-esteem and value comes from capital L like me? Do you like me? Attraction. And so I know, oh yeah, you're never gonna like me. I start there, which it fucks me up a little bit.

Oh, that's real.

And then a lot of your art is deeply activist-oriented. You have a lot of causes you care about. And then so my next insecurity goes like, she's gonna look at me and be like, this dude doesn't give a fuck about anything. I go in with these two insecurities and then I start talking to you and I go, no, I think she likes me.

Maybe not capital L like me, but I can live with this.

And is that enough? Is your case L enough?

It totally is. And I think everything can get so easily misread. I'm sure there's some lesbians who are like, oh, he don't like me because he only likes people he can fuck. And I'm doing the opposite thing, and neither is true.

No.

Yeah, I can't say I've had a lot of lesbian friends, and I have to acknowledge it's got to be some part of my own insecurity, or so I feel like, oh, I'm invisible to this person or something.

Super interesting. A couple things, like, I'm so scared. No, no, no, no, no, this is like really First thing I wanna touch on is the art being rooted in activism. And the truth is, is I don't think of myself as an activist in a way. I think of myself as a human who studies human behavior, and I try to, like, capture it for us to look at. I think because a lot of stuff I'm dealing with is Black folk, it can be sort of categorized as, "Okay, this is what this group of people is dealing with and going through." Especially with a movie like Queen Slim or something like Them Coming, which I produced. I didn't write or direct on that, but— that was a Black person who I believe identified as queer, but he was trying to explore something there through that. And Queen Islimah was exploring something about our society. And then you look at something like The Chi, which is sort of exploring just sort of life, middle-class Chicagoans. But because if it's people who are part of a marginalized community, it sometimes can be seen as, "Oh, this is a political thing," 'cause we don't have any choice for it to be anything other than that.

But the interesting thing about Thanksgiving episode is like so many straight white dudes come up to me, tell me how much they love it. Oh, I love it. And that was a breakthrough for me, for me because I used to think of it as the Black episode of Master of None.

Oh, interesting.

This is gonna be— Oh, we gonna have a Black episode of Zeez? Oh, cool. Oh yeah. Okay. A gay Black episode.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I just thought it was for the gay Black folk. Now, gay Black folk love the Thanksgiving episode.

Sure. I think everyone loves the—

But that's the thing.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's the trick.

Yes.

Is that, yes, it's specific, but it's also universal.

So, you know, I don't think you're preachy. I think you're telling the stories that are true to you. You're supposed to write what you know.

Exactly.

And you are in these two groups that inevitably are gonna seem political. Oh, absolutely.

But for me as an artist, My goal is to not separate myself from the things that make me who I am, but to get folks who don't look like me, love like me, come from the walk of life that I do, to be able to look at the work and not only see it through a particular lens. It's to say, "Hey, you can see yourself in this character," just the way I see myself in the lead character in Baby Reindeer.

Well, I was gonna say, even when you listed the shows that you like right now, of course those are the shows that you like.

But some people might go, "Oh, I'm surprised that she's watching that show." Oh, really? Yes! As a Black woman, they like, "Oh, you not just watching Power and Girlfriends?" Okay. You don't say nothing wrong though, show. Yeah, I did actually watch those shows. I also love Bait. Wanna shout out Riz Ahmed on Amazon. If you haven't seen it, check it out. Beautiful show. He gonna be mad you ain't seen it. But at the end of the day, it's like, so—

Exactly.

Everyone's in trouble.

How am I assuming you seen Bait, right?

Exactly.

But I'm also like, why have you not seen Bait?

Okay.

What issues do you have?

Let's just start with everyone's in trouble.

I know.

To go to the thing about like me and straight men, I feel like I have really great relationships with straight dudes. And a big part of that, I think, is because sex is not on the table. So they don't feel this need to perform. Yeah. Because nothing's coming from it. And I think that's why I also have very interesting relationships with straight women, because that gets a little dicey because it's a level of, huh, you're kind of masc, but you're a woman. And I kind of like this energy. I'm kind of confused. It can get a little tricky. I'm going like, are we cool? Are you hitting on me? You are, but I don't know what's going on. And so I just hear what you're saying in terms of, oh, but if you couldn't like me, then what's my end? What am I doing?

What's my value to anybody who wouldn't like me?

Right. And the truth is, it's like there's so much value because that isn't all that you have to offer me.

Yeah, I know it's stupid as I'm saying it, but it is the emotion I have, right, that I have to think through.

That's super interesting.

I go like, oh, I've got nothing to offer this person. They're not going to want to interact with me. And I got to step over that.

No, I think that's super fascinating to me because I think for me, when I approach I'm just— I'm curious, what's the energy gonna be? I'm more curious about that. 'Cause my brain isn't always there. I more so wanna know, "Well, who are you? What's the thing?" The word I dislike the most is "assume." Anytime someone says it, what follows it is sort of like, "So what you're saying is you didn't ask. You didn't go to the source. You came up with a narrative for yourself about a person." And by the way, there are people that have narratives about me that are completely based on nothing. I think I had created one.

She was like, She won't like me. She'll think I don't care about anything. Why would she want to talk to me? I'm talking to her. Wow, she seems to like me.

She's smiling. Right. That's what a lot of our society is doing right now, which is why I think it looks the way it does. We assume things about each other rather than having that moment of, like, talking to each other and really hearing each other. Because even, like, what you just said, like, I try to be an active listener. That's why I was like, I heard a couple of things. I was like, okay, I want to address the activist thing. I was like, that's really interesting to me. It's not combative, but it's sort of like, oh, Oh, huh, that's an interesting thing.

I know that word's dicey. Like, for me to even say actor, I know that's a loaded word.

No, it's not at all. But to me, it's like, I get what you mean. It doesn't seem like an odd thing at all, what you said. But I think for me, it's helpful to hear and to kind of go, okay, I see how the work can be perceived that way. And because I have no control over how people perceive the work. But I think for me as an artist, it's always about, okay, that's how it can be seen. Okay, cool. And how do I continue to make work that that no one feels ostracized from it. 'Cause some people may go, "I don't wanna work because that's activist. I don't want—

I wanna just kind of chill." I don't wanna be taught a lesson.

Exactly. And sometimes work, especially by women or women of color, or if you have to add queer to that mix, there's this idea, this assumption that, oh, this is gonna be a lesson.

There's gonna be a moral here.

"You're told it's about to be woke." Versus just, "Oh, that was just kind of funny and human and grounded." It can be a burden because even if you are saying something or you're making a piece of art a white woman made straight, people might not be like, it's an allegory or it's a lesson or it's trying to teach me. That's part of the thing. I mean, sometimes we'll get in like debates here, but if I'm saying something, it's kind of like I'm speaking on behalf of always. And not always, I'm just saying what I think.

Right. But you have to always like identify that. You say, I'm just talking from my point of view. I don't represent everyone.

I know. And then that's exhausting. It is. No one else has to do it.

I know. If you don't do that, then people be like, oh, so you speaking for us? You speaking for me? It's just like, oh no, I'm not. I'm speaking for me. Myself. That's a part of the way people do interviews. If you pay attention to it, they're like, I'm just talking about me. No offense to this person. No, that I don't want to. I'm sorry. I'm married in a healthy marriage. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

You know, because people at home are going like, well, fuck you. He's waiting for it.

It's like, what?

It's like, Jesus, what crap?

I know it got really outta control.

No, but anyway, but I like you. I have to get to know you. I have to meet you, met your kids. Yeah.

I like you so much too.

Yeah.

I did immediately. I didn't let any of that get in the way. It was just like passing thoughts as I consumed your art.

We're programmed.

So you were You were 0 to 12, South Side of Chicago.

Correct.

And what was that like? Mom and dad divorced at 3?

At 2. Dad dies suddenly when I was 14, but I only saw him from like till I was like 7. And then like 7 years kind of went by, he was gone.

Was he an addict?

Well, you know, it's crazy because I want to get his death certificate because I didn't know anything about how he died. And he was actually killed by someone, but it was sort of in self-defense. So it wasn't a situation like that. But the coroner did show that there was cocaine in his system.

There is a history of addiction.

My dad loved cocaine, and then I grew up to love it too. It smells so good.

This is why my grandmother told me, she said that the grandmas are gonna say it's in your blood. So be mindful, be thoughtful. A lot of us kind of got told that.

They told me that too.

Oh shit, you didn't need to say that.

They told me. Yeah.

I said, let me just see what's up.

I gotta find out for myself. Oh, they were right.

Did you see the Chevy Chase doc?

Yes.

Jesus Christ.

I would love your analysis.

I thought it was quite fascinating. I thought it was quite human. I'm a person that's done a documentary about a person who was no longer here, being Mary Tyler Moore. That can be a little bit trickier. I don't wanna say there's more pressure, But her widower was kind enough to give us the life rights and the space to tell that story. It took us about 5 years, just going through a lot of interviews and things like that. Obviously, written the memoir when I was much younger and just obsessed with The Mary Tyler Moore Show and Dick Van Dyke and all that kind of stuff. But it's tough to kind of create a portrait of a person. And obviously, that person is still here, and he's being interviewed. And, you know, I've heard the stories. I think a lot of us have.

And they're in the doc. Yeah, exactly. It's pretty unflinching on his many, many—

Absolutely.

—outbursts and shittiness.

I learned a lot of things that I didn't know, which I think is the point of a documentary. Childhood didn't sound great. No, not at all. It's tricky because it's not about making excuses, but rather about giving you context for a person. It's an explanation, not an excuse.

That's what I like to say. Those are different things.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think the thing with Chevy that got me the most was the 50th SNL bit. To watch that and to see him still be affected—

can't get out of his own way.

For people who haven't seen it—

well, I also don't want to—

okay, no, no, you're not gonna ruin it.

I'm checking it out. But if people know that there was a 50th anniversary special on SNL with like everybody that ever pretty much touched it, and a lot of the people that were important the show. By the way, Lorne Michaels is interviewed as well, which I thought was really important. But Chevy talked about not being in the show. Yeah. And even though he was very much part of the origin of the show, I mean, that's not disputed. But also, he came back and hosted. It wasn't the best energy for, I think, either party when he came back to host. And sometimes your reputation, you leave a mark that can stick with people. And who knows what happened? That's the thing. He doesn't know what happened. Lorne kind of is Lorne, sort of, he sort of, "I don't know. We tried." But also, Martin Short said something really interesting. He was like, "Billy Crystal was there as well." He didn't speak I don't speak either. So what are you gonna say? So Martin Short definitely gave some context to the situation. But, you know, what I appreciate is that Chevy Chase said, like, "I was hurt by it." He was hurt.

He reaped what he sowed. What I respect is vulnerability. I respect the honesty. The toughest thing for people to do is just to say, "That hurt my feelings." Yes, literally.

Do you know where my compassion came from? Where? It'd be one thing if he was so happy and unaffected by the wreckage, he seemed to be incapable of not creating, right? Like, if he was sitting there high on his horse, feeling great about it all and enjoying life and feeling good, he is a victim of it all. He's very uncomfortable. He's in such discomfort. It's very obvious. That's true. And so I look at it and I go like, yeah, he was terrible to a lot of people and primarily himself. And I have compassion for that, that kind of self-destructive. I can relate to it. And then also these crazy glimpses of him where he's still a fucking genius, like just him interacting with the dude with the flowers. And I shared— so I'm lying back from the NBC upfronts, and they put me in a car with him. I've never met him. Oh my God. We're sitting in a car together, and then we pull up to the hotel, and there's 600 people out in front of the hotel to see stars. And when he gets out, everyone's so excited, right? And he's trying to walk through this crowd.

He goes, "Oh yes, I'm feeling much better now. Thank you for asking." And keeps moving. And I was like, "Feeling much better now. Thank you for asking" is one of the funniest things I've ever heard. And that's also part of him, right?

But I think that's sort of a portrait of a person.

person Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking what the warning light means before pulling out of your driveway, you absolutely convinced yourself it was probably just a sensor thing right up until you were standing on the side of the road waiting for a tow. Yeah, checking first is the right move. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. And for fast, reliable help when you need it, add an Allstate Roadside Plan today. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary. Insurance and roadside assistance plans are subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Insurance provided by Allstate North American Insurance Company, Northbrook, Illinois. Roadside assistance plans provided by Allstate Motor Club Incorporated and Allstate Phil yet.

What I love about those documentaries, adding my own to it, you know, with Mary Tyler Moore, is that she's the woman that could turn the world on with her smile, but she also was an alcoholic and dealt with a lot of death in her family. And her son has an accidental suicide, and he was in his 20s. And then she also did Ordinary People before that and then experienced it in real life. She went through a ton, but was sort of the Jackie O of television of her time. And so I think ultimately, When you're trying to paint a portrait of someone, there's a lot of colors you have to use, and you have to really let people speak to their experiences of them. And the truth is, everybody's right. Even though there's a moment in the doc where someone talks about how he was treated by them, and he was like, "It's heartbreaking." "I don't recall that." But this person's truth exists. The documentary allows Chevy's truth to exist as well. Yeah, they're just wreckage. But that's the thing. It's like the Pee-wee Herman doc I thought was really phenomenal because I grew up with that.

I loved that doc.

That doc, I watched it multiple times.

Yeah, that's a beautiful—

So stunning because I didn't I didn't realize what I was actually getting when I was watching that show.

Me neither.

He was speaking to the crazy, weird kids. Yes!

It was all misfits. Yeah. And I didn't even get that, but I felt very connected to him.

Yeah. I didn't know I was a misfit until I realized, I'm like, "What is it about this language that he's speaking that I understand?" Sometimes you don't know what you're seeing until somebody points it out to you. And so, and I think that's the other thing too. You get perspective. You can kind of look back on a career and go, "Oh." And then you see the downfall and you go, "I see. Oh, this is interesting how that kind of went, how they tried to make it like he was a bad dude." Breaks my heart. That's crazy.

He was straight and fucking hookers. Like, he could have done anything straight. Nothing would have happened.

Oh yeah, that's the thing. Hello. Anyway, it's the thing about these people's lives and the impact they have on us that we don't even realize. And then you realize that this person that has such an impact on you was a person. Oh yeah, everyone. It's weird when you realize your parents are a person.

You're like, oh, that's weird. There's only one person I think might not be a person, but this is one. Who? Steven Seagal.

I'm not— You could have went anywhere.

Like, I know if I watched the doc and I saw the records, he'd be very comfortable.

Like, you're like, I don't know. Begone. Yes, begone. Yes, begone. Yes, begone.

Yeah. So I read that you wanted to be a TV writer at 7, and this feels impossible to me because when I watched TV at 7, it wouldn't have even occurred to me that it had started with writing. It's just like, these people exist on this box. I think that might be real.

I think the truth is I knew I liked writing as a kid. I liked the assignment of having to summarize the book or tell about what you did the day before. And I remember my teacher really affirming me that young, saying, "I look forward to reading your papers." We both know our teacher's name.

Who was it? Mrs. Taylor. Tarbounis. Yeah. Larry Leclercq. Come on. Yeah. When they tell you you're a good writer, you're like, okay.

I think what we say is so powerful. The power of the tongue is real.

Yeah. And I just need to always, any opportunity, give any little kid that thing. Yeah.

'Cause they'll remember it. It stays with them.

Both ways. Whether you're told you're not good at something or you are good, like it just sticks.

For sure. So no, I was really grateful to have that, but also obviously loved watching television as a young person. I used to watch old TV 'cause I had the grandma in the house. So we was watching like all in family. Yeah, her shows. Oh yeah. I did. We gonna watch what I want.

I did watch my grandma. Yeah.

All in the Family. Sanford and Son. Well, we like the Jeffersons, Good Times, obviously being a family in Chicago. I got to watch that old TV that had a really big impact on me. A Different World was really important to me, which is the spinoff of The Cosby Show for the younger audience, really sort of speaking to me, even though I was like, didn't even know what college was. I had beef with that show. Okay.

What's the beef? I'd say my first number one love of my life was Lisa Bonet.

Of course. I'm not alone.

Get it.

And then she gave birth to herself. Come on. Zoe Kravitz is also stunning.

I got to dance with her one night for like 2 hours. What? I just need to tell you, Kristen and I were at a thing.

Of course. This is how every story starts.

And Kristen goes, there's your girl.

This is why you're married to the best lady on the planet.

She goes, there's your girl. And she's dancing and you love to dance. So get over there. Okay. And I fucking danced for 2 hours. I was floating on a cloud. Anyways, the spinoff was like— She took us to the spinoff, right?

Correct. And then she got booed after the first season. Ugh! But that's the way it's supposed to go. I lost my lead season 3. You know, people knew about that. But there's something that happens when the universe takes someone away like that, where it was like, "We gonna hang the hat on this person. Well, let's remove that person. Now see what you do." And what happened was A Different World became the show it was ultimately meant to become, which was supposed to be about Jasmine Guy and Khadeem Hardison and Cree Summer and Sharnell Brown and Darryl Bell and Sinbad and everyone that was there. Came in and touched the show.

So that show was like everything. It was just everything.

It's like, you know, I talk about—

Did you just want to live in the world? Did you want to be in that college? Weren't they all in a college?

That show is a big reason why a lot of folks went to historically Black colleges. My Black ass loving A Different World the way I did, I ended up going to Columbia College in Chicago, studied writing, producing, and television. But I did go visit Fisk, which is an HBCU as well. I wanted to stay in Chicago and I wanted to go learn how to write television.

Is Columbia Chicago— A part of university? A part of the New York— They're completely different things.

Completely different.

I was trying to figure that out when I was researching you today. Yeah.

—like I'm reading all about it. University. I went to the college that tells you, like, you know, okay. But she was an exec or is an exec and I'm a writer. So it makes sense. It's like, okay, like all this, these different parts of your brain. But I went to Columbia and it was really the best thing. Could I ask really quick though, who were you in elementary?

Who were you in high school? Who were you in junior high? Oh, who was I? Yeah. In Chicago. And you moved to Evanston, but tell me the first 12. Oh my God.

Who were you in elementary school? I was was the conduct grade was always low. Class clowny? Just a busybody. Talking too much. Mama having to come up to the school.

You said you're not ADHD, but this is sounding a teeny bit—

I was a social butterfly way young. I was there to socialize. The grades were solid though. The reading and the writing and all that, I was killing it. You know? But I was talking too much. And then junior high, I was very much like a tomboy, but I hung out with all the pretty girls and stuff like that. I was in that crew. Loved movies. That was a big part of my personality. People could ask me about anything.

Can I ask how early you were fully aware of being queer? And then when you started sharing that with friends?

Oh man, that's so interesting because I feel like I'm a person that believes it's sort of in you from the beginning. It's about where you recognize it.

But I mean, for a minute you're just not even sexual.

True. No, but the thing is, when you're kids, like you laugh, you have crushes. That's true. You like other kids around us?

Like, you like your teachers and shit? There's teachers you like?

That was never one of my fantasies, though, 'cause my teachers were like my aunts and moms. Like, they were, like, amazing. But they just were giving that. But it was really about— I was looking at these actors and stuff coming up, and the Janet Jacksons. I could recognize, I'm like, "Janet is beautiful." 'Cause I was like, "Okay, what's happening over here?" Halle Berry's beautiful. I can recognize Whitney Houston is beautiful. But I also considered my mother to be beautiful. And so there was a level of like, "Oh, you're beautiful, she's beautiful, okay." These women, women that I could recognize, it was a different thing.

Did you have a young mom? Are you the older sister or the younger? I'm the youngest.

And my mom was, like, in her 30s, like, when she had us. So, it feels like the usual age you have kids. And my sister's, like, almost 2 years older than me. And so it was just the 2 of us. And I just gravitated toward the female energy, but then I was also a tomboy, like, outside with the boys and stuff like that. And so I think, for me, high school, I definitely felt very queer. Queer. But the thing about tomboys, girls don't really get teased the way boys who are effeminate do. No, right. Because in a patriarchal society, it's not odd to be a girl that wants to be a boy. It's odd to be a boy that wants to be a girl because girls are sort of second-class citizens. Right. Yeah, that's true. And so that was the thing. Like, I was never teased or made fun of. So I was never— I was never eyeballed. And then in college, I was still living with my mom, so I wasn't really out exploring. It wasn't until I moved to LA where I was like, okay, where are the gay clubs at? Where are the gay kids?

This and that. And then when I would go to those clubs, I would feel very much like an outsider. Like, I wouldn't feel feel welcome. You feel inexperienced? Definitely felt inexperienced and also felt like I don't have any gay friends either. And so I've just cultivated this sort of like queer Black women. It's not like a requirement, but the thing is like we had to curate that, cultivate that community. Like it wasn't just like, oh, where are my other queer Black masc women?

It's not turnkey.

No. Like you got to really find folks. And we've literally found it. We was hanging out last night and it's private. We don't have our phones. We're just having dinner. We're sharing sharing. It's amazing. But it took a beat for us to like figure that out. And so I think that's the interesting thing about community is that it takes effort. It takes time.

It takes energy. Everything worth having— no one ever knocks on your door and gives you something that's worth having.

No. I do think there's this desire of everything you can have delivered to your door and not friends.

No, not friends, not partners, not any of that stuff. No, you gotta work for it. Not jobs. All the shit that's worth having.

You gotta fight for it.

They don't hand it out. They don't.

And then once you get it, that's when the real That's when the real work begins.

Yeah. So you got— I don't want to say lucky because obviously you'd gotten a degree in it, but you land pretty quickly in LA after graduation as an assistant to an executive producer of Girlfriend. Girlfriend. Yes. Yeah. Right.

Which I was loving watching.

And the creator of that show at the time had been the youngest Black showrunner ever. Like 30, maybe. Right?

Well, because Yvette Lee Bowser, who wrote on A Different World, she was up top. She had created a show called Living Single. So she was outside as well. I want to give her her flowers. And then Mara Brock Akil was also coming up at that time. Mara. Mara.

Yeah. Anytime M-A-R-A, I'm afraid, is it Mara or Mara? I've had to go by— in this case it's Mara.

Mara. I have to interject. Go for it, please. Come on. Last week or 2 weeks ago, I met Mara twice in like 1 week. She's stunning. And she's incredible. I went to— one of your events? Yeah, one of my events.

Monica's right into a lot of events.

But she was at 2 and she's the best. And we exchanged numbers. I told her the story of the show and she was like, I want to listen. What episode? So I was like sending her episodes. So hopefully she'll hear this. Oh, yeah.

So, big shout-out. Mara Brockington, I'm gonna send it to her. I'm gonna send it up.

That feels like a real blessing to land with that person as a potential mentor.

Oh, my God. And she has. She has been. She came to the Queen Is Slim premiere. Gina Prince-Bythewood, I wanna shout-out as well, who wrote and directed Love Basketball. Mara got me a job working for her on Secret Life of Bees once I was done with Mara. And then Gina got me a gig working for Ava DuVernay when she went to go direct her first film. So, that's my trifecta of fairy godmothers in the business. And Gina just hit me, like, today, 'cause she got a chance to look at my play that I did in Baltimore. Baltimore, and her and Reggie Bythewood, her husband, who was also a big mentor of mine, they literally sent me a text today saying, "Hey, we love this play. It was very well done.

Really proud of you." And I was like, "It's like my parents are telling me they're proud of me right now." Okay, so when you leave that show, is your first staff writing job on Bones, or is it on the Nickelodeon show?

Nickelodeon was first, and then I got Bones. So I did the half-hour multicam, and then I did the hour-long procedural.

And culturally going from— So different. Yeah.

And how did that— go? I kind of struggled on the multicam kids show thing because it's just sort of not my vibe.

You're not watching a lot of that.

Yeah, but like, I needed a job and the lead was a Black girl, and so they couldn't hire— shout out to Izzy, I love him. He was like, "All right, I'm gonna have you two Black women split the check." Because he's like, "Otherwise, I can only have one." I know, that's sort of how it goes. It's not his fault. I mean, it's just the way it goes. They did like the paper team situation. So me and another Black female writer shared an office and we were on a writing team. Then I didn't like work for a bit, but I wrote the pilot of The Chi, had a table read for it.

Did you sell the pilot? Isn't that Nevins? Yes. I love Nevins.

I love him so much. He's the best. I call him my Clive Davis. He was like, come on in. He taught me a lot too. He said to me, whatever you don't get in your first season, you'll get in your second. Whatever you don't get in the second season, you'll get in your third. It was so great at a breakfast. And he just sort of gave me such great advice.

But he bought the pilot in '15, but you didn't shoot it till '18.

We shot two pilots of it. We did one pilot and he said this could be better. And he was right. And then we did it again. And then that was the one he greenlit. So two things.

A, hard to hear that. Be what a champion to say, go get it right. Yeah. Right? Was it hard to hear it, or did you know it as well? Or was he wrong?

No, he was right ultimately. I can't help but give him that. I, though, didn't think the director we had for the first one was the right director for it. I will say that. And they were like, no, this is a big deal. By the way, no need to say his name, whatever, but no need to disrespect anyone because he is very talented and amazing. I just didn't think he was right for what I was doing. And so then we did that. And in essence, like, Nevins was like, "Yeah, okay." We were both right. And so he said, "Let's go here." And we got Rick Famuyiwa, who directed Dope, who directed The Wood, and he directed the pilot of our show, which is a big reason why I think it went. And we had a beautiful cast, and Alex Hibbard, who came from Moonlight right over to our set. And obviously, Jason Mitchell was coming off of Straight Outta Compton, and Yolanda Ross, and Jacob Lattimore. Just the whole cast was really wonderful. And they sort of brought us into this space of, "Oh, okay, this is the show." I always wanted to be an ensemble piece, but they were like, "No, you need a lead." And then, of course, season 3, our lead was taken away due to some events.

And then it became the show that I think I always intended it to be.

Do you think this description's fair? I've read this many times where people say, like, "It's a hopeful version of The Wire." Hmm. I mean, that is maybe the greatest show ever made, so it never hurts to be in the same sentence. More hopeful.

You know, yeah, I definitely get the comparisons for sure. And I think The Wire did something that hadn't been done on television before. And I never feel, like, weird about comparisons or people mentioning things in the same sentence, 'cause I think that's such an honor. And I think The Chi really, for me, was— as a slice-of-life ensemble. I didn't want to necessarily go too deep into these different organizations or places or things like that, because I really wanted to have people in living rooms having conversations while people in living rooms are watching it and maybe be encouraged to have their own conversations. I'm a writer that I think leans into conversations.

Wanting to start conversations.

Not even wanting to start them, but wanting to have them. I love Matthew Lopez, phenomenal playwright, recently said to me, which, by the way, which he got from Mike Nichols, but he was saying that every conversation, there's like 3 different categories. Like it's a negotiation, it's a seduction, or it's a competition or something like that. And so I really kind of carried that, and I might be paraphrasing, but I really do love the art of a conversation.

Yeah, conversing for me, it's a very fun game. It's like the best game, and you can play it all day long. Yeah, exactly. I just love games, and I think talking to people is just this super fun game.

Sometimes people like to be in combat in conversation, and I prefer to be in dialog. Meaning you're saying something, I'm digesting it. I say something, you digest it. And we can kind of accept that.

Mine would be opposite of comeback. It would be, I say something and it opens the door for you to say something even scarier, which opens the door for me to say something even scarier. That to me is like the ratcheting up of it. Not like a conflict, more just like, I'm going here. Oh, fuck. Okay, I'll meet you there. And then plus one. Yeah. That's the fun game of it.

I love that. I think, because that's really how you get to be close. You sort of say, like, I'm going to say something scary, and that gives me permission to say something scary too.

So I think Master and Nun is a very interesting and probably unexpected deviation. Yeah. But ultimately has to be a wonderful thing to integrate into the overall thing. It really changed my life. I learned the story today. I would have assumed you and Aziz were friends. I know. And that the—

That role was written for you. I know.

Everybody says that. But that is not at all what it was.

Yeah, no, not at all.

It was written for a white woman that might become his love interest. Correct. Oh! Yeah. So walk us through how—

I don't want to do Aziz. Like, I don't know if it was a white woman. It was just supposed to be straight.

That's what I read. Whatever he come on the show and tell us himself.

Look, here's the truth. I don't know how likely that is, but you get Brad Pitt. Aziz Ansari, I don't know.

We'll see what happens. He's hard to get, this guy.

He is. Trust me. I know. I know. I love him. I love him. He's my brother. He doesn't like to talk. He doesn't want to talk to people. Like, that's just how he is. He talked to Amy, which was surprising. We've had maybe 15 text exchanges.

Exchanges. Come on. And they're all about watches. I'm like, that's all we're gonna do, huh?

We're gonna— yeah, take it.

It's more than what most people get. Started the show, there was like a list of like 8 people that we wanted. He'd be great though.

He's on there. Having me here doesn't hurt because now he'll be like, okay, all right, talk to me about it.

She lived. Yeah, I think she lived. Let me call her first and make sure she lived.

Talk to me about it.

No, the Michael thing's really gonna throw him. He's like, I'm never going on there.

I know. Oh, Jesus Christ. Again, I gotta give a shout out to Allison Jones.

We had her on, by the way.

Yes. Friend of the pod.

That's right. I did. I watched it.

We love her. Love her. She—

that's also a rare thing. Cause she also doesn't talk to people. I know. She's like, I just discovered you.

But you know, not cause she doesn't want to per se. She made it very clear. She was so flattered and no one ever cares about casting directors. She just didn't think anyone— she kept thinking, why are you interviewing me? So crazy.

It's insane. Yes. It's insane. But it's very rare. Very endearing. She's phenomenal. She literally saw something I put out online, which I wasn't even in. It was a pilot presentation for a show I ultimately did called Twenties. I put it out there because I wanted somebody to see it and go, "Okay, we could do this." And so then I got a call that she wanted to meet me. I didn't know who she was, but I went and sat with her, and I walked by the poster for Freaks and Geeks and Bridesmaids and Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, and I thought, "Okay." She's like Lorne Michaels. Got it. Yeah. So I sit across from her, and I just talked to her about television, and she has such great taste and everything. And I talked about Martin. Maude and watching that and watching Golden Girls.

Are you pretty encyclopedic with TV stuff? Yeah, I mean, I worked at Blockbuster for a while. Yeah, yeah. And Best Buy and movie theater. Yes, in the movie theater. You did your homework.

I do. I know all my stuff. So we were just like talking about the most randomest like things, and she just kind of goes, have you ever considered acting? And I said, I have not. She's like, okay, so can I bring you in for some stuff just for like, you know, shits and giggles? And I was like, sure. And she did. She brought me in for Veep, and I wasn't able to really handle that because Julia Louis-Dreyfus was like in front of me, and so I wasn't expecting that. So I I just like completely fucked up.

You gotta be a fucking gunslinger to be on TV. I was like, oh, I'm like, I'm a spiritual.

I'm gonna be out here. But then she did bring me in for a tape and I got the comeback, which was cool. And then I got a call that said, can you just go meet with Aziz?

Wait, really quick. Can I ask? Yeah. At that time, were you like extra money or were you like, I wanna act, I have a desire to act?

No, I just really trusted her instincts. I didn't think that that was something that was in the cards. Cards from me, though. I'm a writer. That's what I do. So, because Aziz and her, she was obviously brought on to do the show. It didn't even have a title. It took forever for us to get the title of the damn show. It was Untitled Aziz Ansari Project, 'cause y'all know how that goes. But obviously, I was a fan of Parks and Rec, and I knew his comedy. But I got a call that was from her office that says, "We want you to go meet with Aziz." And I was like, "Why is it casting people calling me? What's about the staffing?" And they was like, "I don't know, but go meet with Aziz and Alan Yang." And obviously, I knew Alan Yang's name as well. And so I thought, "Okay, all right, I'll go sit with them, but it's from Allison's office, so this is strange." And they were like, "I know. Just go to his house and sit and talk to him." And so I later found out that Aziz told her that he didn't want just people to come in and read with him.

He wanted to meet people first and see if they were interesting and then read. So he just said to her, "Send me interesting people." And by the grace of God, she and I just met. And she said, "Oh, Lena Waithe is interesting. You should meet her." And he was like, "Okay, I don't know who that is, but send her to the house." And so I went to his house and sat with him and Alan, not unlike this, literally kind of almost similar, the furniture and everything. And I just sort of talked to them like I would if it was a staff writing meeting, but it clearly wasn't. And I just was like myself. I had recently fallen in love. I was just being myself. Just being myself, comfortable in my own skin. And then I got the call, "Okay, he wants you to read with him." And I was like, "Oh, okay." So, okay, he thought I was interesting. So I came in, sat down, read with him, and it was just instant. Then I came in to test for it. The casting couch, it was a very straight, white woman sitting next to me, and she's like, "Are you going in for Denise?" And I was like, "Yeah, are you going in for Denise?" She was like, "Yeah." She's like, "It's funny, we get bumped into each other all the time." And I was like, "Right, yeah, that's weird." Yeah.

By the way, it's so much better.

Oh, yeah, it's definitely better. It's way better.

None other ones when you sit down, it's like, yeah, I'm kind of the same, but way less good looking.

Exactly. You're like different variations of each other. And so it's these— to me, what I looked at, it was Alan and Michael Schur too, who was our parent on that. It was basically them saying, this is the NBC 1994 version of this show. This one we're bringing in. Of course, when I come in, it's like, this is where shit is going. Like, this is what it is. And so I totally get what they were doing. And, um, so obviously when I went in, I had a cold too. And when I went in, I was like, oh, I told Michael Schur, this I'm gonna talk right around this man. 'Cause I was like, let's go. 'Cause I could just feel something was interesting. And of course, after I read and tested Aziz, he was like, come on, come in here.

And were you encouraged to be loose and improv in that audition? A little bit. 'Cause again, if I'm going from, okay, we had this one archetype, but we're trying this other thing out, let's see all the flavors. Like, I would wanna know.

They knew I was a writer, and so they were like, you know, but I also didn't come in there, I didn't wanna blend the two. So the season one, I didn't write anything. Me and Aziz would have conversations where he would take little things from there and put it in there. But then season two, its success, he was like, okay, Okay, I wanna do a Denise-centered episode. And I was in season 2 a lot less 'cause I had gotten Ready Player One. And that was a very interesting, tricky thing 'cause it was like classic. Like, we got a season 2, and now you say you wanna go do the Spielberg movie and only be in it for a couple episodes. And I was like, yeah. I was like, but this is an opportunity. I'll give you a great episode. Just talking shit, you know? I was like, I'll give you a great episode. It'll be fine, man. Don't worry about it. Like, I gotta go do this movie. And he's all like, oh God, classic. And so sure enough, he came to London where I was filming so he and I could write the episode.

'Cause I actually told him, I said, I can't write that episode with you. I said, 'cause I gotta focus on this movie, man. I'm like, how many times you gonna get to be in a fucking Steven Spielberg movie? I gotta show up. He was like, if you don't write it with me, it's not happening. Uh-huh. Good for him. And so I was like, fine.

Mm-mm-mm. And it won an Emmy. Yes, it did. You won an Emmy for that.

Yeah, I became the first Black woman to win for outstanding writing in a comedy series. Yeah. So great. And did you love acting? It took some getting used to because he did want me to be myself. And you're in New York City. I was in New York City, baby, going to restaurants with him. Like, just— I mean, he's like, show me a real— he's like, He's the reason I know how to like eat oysters and like caviar, all this kind of stuff. Cause he's such an old school gentleman type guy.

He knows every restaurant. And I'm like, okay, this is all fascinating. Yes. What a tour guide to New York he must have been.

Oh my God. I mean, even in London too.

I watch the show and I'm like, I want to spend a week with him and fucking meet him at corners and eat shit. I know. Shopping, eating. Yeah, look at girls and eat shit. Let's go.

Eat rice balls and shit about girls. No, it was fantastic. I remember we used to go see Moonlight together, and Barry Jenkins was doing a Q&A after, and it was just like crazy. And then we were— 'Cause we knew we had Thanksgiving coming up, and so we were like, "Oh, this is crazy." He's someone that is a big part of not just my career, but I think just my evolution as an artist and as a person in the world. And I'm really grateful for his existence because my career wouldn't look the way it does if it weren't for him and Allison Jones and Alan Yang and Michael Schur and Netflix, those guys over there. It's just such a big part of it. Part of my career.

Now, what did you have to learn to run The Chi? I'd never run it. I'm not a showrunner. Oh, you've never run it?

I did the showrunner training program with the WGA, and I realized, yeah, someone said, "Getting your own TV show is like being beaten to death with your own dream." And nothing is truer than that.

I always say the hardest-core motherfuckers in all of show business are showrunners. Oh, yeah, that's why I don't do it. You have to give it to them.

That's why I don't do it. 'Cause they're doing budgets, they're dealing with actors, they're dealing with execs.

They're the edit. They do every single piece of it.

The way I get to sit here You know, shout out to Jewel and Justin, who co-showrun it together. I do think it's a two-person job. I get to be the creator, you know what I'm saying? And I get to, like, give notes and things like that.

You were in the writers' room, I imagine?

I was in the writers' room for season 1 and season 2. And those were rocky times because I was a young buck. Like, I was 30, 31. That's young to be a show creator. They have showrunners they put you with who are older and wiser. But at the same time, I'm doing something new, and you're holding on to something old.

That's the inherent— The inherent tension in all these situations— Always. —is I'm trying to do something new, but you know how to do it.

Right.

Both of you are right. Yes, correct.

But we're fighting. But you can't get the green light until they're like, "Well, we approve this guy to come oversee." If they spend $100 million on something, they want someone that has done it many times successfully. I lightly called Michael Shaw our parent on, you know, Master of None because you need that person that's gonna kind of watch over and go, "Okay, all right, what are y'all doing? Okay, what's happening? Okay, you wanna do what?" That's the nature of the beast. And I think people that watch television don't always think about all those things. Or sometimes you have a whole episode and this actor got sick, or this actor got a movie, It's like a movie. Okay, you go here, we gotta rewrite this, and that changes that storyline, but we'll figure it out. These two actors who we wanted to be a couple don't really have great chemistry. Okay, so we'll go over here. It's like all these different things.

It's not creative, it's logistics.

Yes, it's logistics. It's like, it's also a workplace. It's like everybody don't always get along.

Yeah, you're doing a lot of therapy for people, HR.

Exactly. Okay, HR, deal with that. So it's just like, okay, it's 8 seasons. I was like, yo, I'm going May 8th, we're gonna be in Chicago, last day of filming. The whole thing and go promote it in New York.

Now explain this to me. So seasons 1 through 5, 10 episodes, season 6, 16 episodes. They did that. They asked us for more. Yeah.

Season 7, 12, 12 and 8. I asked us to go back to 10. Okay.

So for our last season, gonna be 10, baby. Okay. Yeah. Unconvention— by the way, Parenthood, which I was on for 6 years, we never did a season of the same number, same thing. I see. We did 13, we did 21, we did 18, we did 14. We did—

was that because of the streamer or the network?

It was the network. It was like they would never kind of commit to, We were always on the bubble all 6 years. And it was like, this year is like, good news, 16. We're like, what fucking, what number is that? You're either doing 13 or you're doing 22 at that time. We're gonna do 16. And then one year we're gonna do it. They tell us midway through. I don't know. It was very confusing.

When they told us they wanted 16 episodes, we'd already had our 10-episode pitch. So we had to go to them and say, well, you gotta give us a few more weeks to figure out what that is. And they were like, okay, but it's good news. They want more episodes. And it's like, had a new guy had come over and he wanted more episodes. 'cause it was doing well. But we had never told a story that way before. People don't realize, like, you're being told. You're like, "Okay, so we're gonna do 16. Got it." And then 7, "Oh, you're doing 12? Okay." And that's why they said, "Yo, 8? I gotta— This'll be 10? Okay, cool." Yeah.

Do you have the pride of having a show that went 8 seasons? 'Cause it's like you're in the thinness of air.

I know. There's a lot of gratitude. But also knowing that when we came on at that time, it was a different world. 8 years ago? I know. Things were different. Were very different. Mm-hmm. Very different. Even more, slightly more than 8, 'cause we did the first pilot, then we did the second one. Right. Right. So we had a mini room and then this and that.

You mean you sold the pitch in 2015? Correct. So you've been doing this for 11 years. Exactly.

You've only seen 8 seasons. Yeah. But you know, it's a pilot. They'll never see the light of day. There's things that I've lived through that have really made me the artist I am now and, and made me someone that can really see things from a lot of different angles.

In 2018, you became the voice of AT&T. Absolutely. And I'm wondering what your tagline is. Can you say it? I want to hear it. Oh my God, I made Billy Crudup do the Visa commercial. Priceless. MasterCard. I made him do it.

It was incredible.

Hold on, this is how you know I wrote one to fuck with Monica that he had.

MasterCard was fantastic.

Oh my God, he did a cold read.

It was perfect.

What is— what was my main— because it was like, it was like, what was my main thing? I'm forgetting it. Just okay is not okay. Just okay is Is that it?

Does that feel familiar?

It was that, but it was something else too. It was something else.

How many years did you do that?

Oh man, I did that for a few years. Like maybe like 3.

That's the best job in Hollywood.

It was the best. And I could do it at the crib too. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

And the pay is nice.

It is lovely. It's like nice payday. Yes, it is. I'm gonna get another deal situation.

If you looked at your career and you charted your hourly rate, there would just be this huge spike and it'd be your 18th gig.

It's right there. It's right there. And people would recognize me from, my voice. Uh-huh. Speaking of the voice, they knew. They're like, hmm, your voice sound familiar.

Oh, maybe Delta's like gonna have a huge campaign. No, she will. She will. She will.

I'm speaking— She's the kid who, you know, I'm certain to be wrong. What I love is she loves writing more than anything. She writes compulsively. We just had the conversation last night. You would love this. I imagine if you can imagine having a kid, this would be the ultimate conversation you could ever have, right? She wants to win— there's like a writing competition at school to write basically the closing statement of elementary. And so all the kids are writing something. She really wants to get picked and to be able to read it on stage. She wrote it, and then she read it to Kristen, and Kristen said, it's really good, but I think— and you're better off speaking to your dad about this— but I'm not sure that it's you. And so she came upstairs and she's like, Mom said this. I'm read it to me. And I got to have this conversation with her. And I said, the challenge as a writer is to never write for anybody but you. And it's so hard. That's true. I said, so you could choose to write this to try to win a contest, or you could choose to write the story that you would tell your best friend Inka about your experience at CWC.

What would you say about your experience to Inka, your best friend? And she was like, I get that. Okay, I get get that. And I was like, this is like the dream of all dreams. Have a conversation like that with my daughter about what it means to find your voice as an artist. Oh, that's good. I was just floating on a cloud this whole conversation. It was so fun.

You know, it's interesting because I am childless by choice. Uh-huh. And it's funny, we talked about this a little bit, like, if you remember that I'm still in that camp. It's so fascinating because there's so many things that I think about in terms of like why I don't want to be a parent. And a lot of it is because you have to have a sort of mental capacity for that at the end of a day. What's interesting is you have the capacity to sit and, like, hear it, give the note. You gonna hear the rewrite. You gonna maybe be there if she wins. You know? It's gonna be— it's a lot of energy. And if she doesn't get it, then there's also that, you know, emotional showing up that you'll do.

The most likely thing is if she succeeds at writing the things she'd really tell her friend Inka, it's not gonna get picked. Oh, well, who knows?

We don't know that. We don't know.

But at this age, at this age, in that— context, it probably won't be rewarded originality and true voice.

But that's also the lesson you got to get.

Well, I told her, I said, look, hon, she's okay.

You set her up. Just think about it.

Well, luckily I got my own storyteller. It's like I've always written what I wanted and it didn't work. It didn't always work well. I wanted a car chase movie that was a love story. Nobody wants that. I wanted that and it didn't work. But I kept doing it. And one day the podcast happened. It took so many years of me being truthful to that. Sometimes it takes a while, but you will have the pride of having always told the story you wanted to tell. And that is invaluable and worth more than any amount of money you could have made. Absolutely.

Where I do that, 'cause I have this mentorship program where there's writers, there's actors, there's people who wanna be execs, and I get on Zooms with them once a month and they can ask me whatever they want. We have these lovely private conversations. And I think that's where I realize, oh, that's where I can show up and like be real. 'Cause also it's that element too of being supportive and encouraging, but also being grounded and being realistic. And I think that is the path you're walking, with your kid. Maybe for me as a mentor, which I've become and I try to do that, it's still a responsibility. Yeah. You know, but I think you're doing— I always say parents are doing God's work because it's a different kind of responsibility that you have. This is a person that is a reflection of you, but also you wanna make sure that they aren't a carbon copy of you. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like you gotta give her guidance, but also make sure she has a space to become more of herself.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. Expert, if you dare. The thing you fight the most as a parent constantly is they are their own thing. Oh my God. It's all you're doing. Like, you're trying your hardest.

But think about how many parents don't do that. There's so many parents whose children are really doing the thing that parents want them to do.

It's very natural and gratifying to see yourself in other things. We search for that, and that's how we bond, and it's great. Invariably, you do that, you see all these things that are similar to yourself in it, and it's very gratifying. But then you have to go like, and that's 10% of them. I might miss the other 90% that's not like me at all because I'm not looking for it, right? You got to remind yourself to constantly look for it. Yeah, back to the baby thing. So what happened to me was, A, I've always wanted kids, so that's standard. But also, I had a friend who had I had a daughter who I just fell in love with. Oh, I'd take her trick-or-treating. She'd ride on my shoulders. And I just constantly was like, if I don't get a Madeline before I die, I'm gonna— oh my gosh, you're built for it. Yeah, I'm built for it. But Delta fuck you up a little bit.

Oh yeah. No, here's, that's not the problem. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 'Cause then I'll meet kids and I'm like, oh, can my kid be cool and chill? Yeah. But then the tricky part is though, they gonna have moments of not being chill. Cool, not being cool, like upset. It's just a lot going on. There is a lot. You know, I'm just like, how much do I have? Like, I got responsibility for myself, my community, my work.

And you feel fulfilled.

I do. Yeah. You're like, I'm whole. Yes. And I do think it can be very societal. I think sometimes people say, oh, why'd you want to have kids? Oh, you know, I'm at that age. I can finally afford it. Or it's that time. And although now there's so many— every other week there's an article in New York Times about people can't afford to have the children now. So they're deciding not to for certain reasons, or people don't like the world they may bring them into. But for me, For me, it's more of an internal thing about what do I actually have the mental capacity for? What I also think about is at the end of a long day, what do I want to do with myself? And I think the first thing is to not take care of someone else.

Yeah. Yeah, that's fair.

Because it's a different kind of thing that you're doing. Because also anything could happen with kids, like they fall, break something. That's so scary. They sick.

Can I hit you with something, man? Go ahead. And I'm trying to convince you to—

No, no, no, no, no. Go for it.

But I'm just— I just want to point out, a lot of these counterintuitive things. Yeah, you might be shocked to learn or find out or experience that taking care of them is taking care of yourself in a way that was unimaginable. Oh, that's interesting. The amount of healing and perspective that's happening in those moments, and the right-sizing of all of your concerns and all these existential things you have, and the racket in your head and the things that are important— like, somehow it can alleviate all of those things. So it's like, you think you're going to be overwhelmed, but weirdly it prioritizes things in this way. Oh, this is weirdly nurturing to me and has, yeah, just prioritized things in a very clean and lovely— like, here's what I miss about being an addict. The beauty of being an addict is you have a single goal. Yes, it's true. I'm telling you, it's a liberating fucking thing. It's like, I have one mission today: do not fall off of this high.

That's so peaceful. Is it difficult for you to watch stuff like Euphoria or like— I love it. So you can watch this?

Oh, I love it. Yeah, yeah. Because I know it's not like I just see it. I'm like, oh, I've been in that room. I know this thing. Yeah. I love it. Got you. Some addicts can't watch this shit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No. Yeah. But I hear you. 'Cause I love Jada Pinkett calls her children her teachers. She says they teach me things about herself, life, all that kind of stuff. And I thought that was a really interesting way of looking at parenthood. 'Cause obviously you're thinking this the other way around. But I think for me, I am taught something by human beings every single day. And that's why I feel like I don't need to produce one or have somebody produce one because it really is a writer's job to be a witness, to really look at human behavior and try to understand it and accept things about it that don't make sense to us sometimes. Because when I look at society, it's easy to get frustrated, but rather I say, "Why are we behaving this way?" Because it's not out of sheer desire for destruction. Right. It's out of the sheer desire to be seen, to be loved, to be a part of something. Something. And so I think, yeah, I may not be a parent and I don't have a desire to be, but I think what I do have a desire to do is to understand humanity and have empathy for us and to be able to reflect us back to ourselves so that way we could better understand ourselves.

I mean, Chelsea Handler says this so perfectly all the time. She's like, I don't have kids, so I have the capacity to give to all these other kids. Like, she's a constant— Oh yeah, all my friends have kids. Yeah. And just like she gives all these charities, she's just just like, I have space. If I had a kid, I could not feasibly do all of that.

Yeah. And I will say my friend Melina Matsoukas, who has a little one who's like, her son who's not yet 1, and he is in that space of when I come over there, I can just like hold him. And I was over there holding him and she's like, you come over here to get your baby fixed.

That's the problem.

And I was like, what? No, no. Because when I hand him back, when I'm I'm sitting there also lowkey getting tired. He's getting heavy as hell. Yeah. He's heavy. She noticed. I'm like, girl, this is not normal, girl. What is happening? What's in the breast milk? She's like, I know, child. But, but as I give him back, cause I'm like, yo, I'm exhausted before I leave. And she's just like, let's give him back over here. I was like, yeah, I wanna give him back.

I wanna give Rakim back. We had a terrifying moment when Kristin was probably like 6 months pregnant. We went out to eat with our friends, the Hansons, and they already had 2 little kids. Oh, Jesus. And we were at Bob's Big Boys trying to have dinner. Impossible. It was not possible to have dinner with these kids there.

And so you guys were like, look what we're about to do.

Oh Lord, we can't go to Bob's Big Boys anymore. Like, that's a wrap on going out to fucking eat a hamburger.

Y'all don't wanna leave the house though. Let's keep it out. Be honest.

You don't wanna leave the house. Yeah. Yeah. Now we have an excuse. So you got that built-in excuse. That's nice.

That's the other thing. Parents don't be going nowhere. They don't.

Anytime I don't wanna go somewhere and there's a play that night.

Oh, look, see, look, I'm here. I go out. I go out a little bit. Yeah. I'm outside a little bit. Yeah.

Just a little bit. You're social. You've been since elementary.

Problem. I'm a social. Yeah. I know. It's your life force. You're social too.

I am. You're social too. Drives my wife crazy. She's like, how many people do you need to talk to? I'm like, everyone, hopefully. I think there's like 7 billion left I have to talk to.

She's like, it's your job.

It's your job. She always says the greatest gift about this show is that like, I do get to talk myself out enough. So that was a good talk. Where I'm tolerable at night. Yeah. Yeah, the load's not all on her shoulders.

I love you guys. I love you guys together. I'm not Team Cher. What happened? I'm not, I'm not. I'm like, guys, no. I said, internet, what are you doing?

No, can I tell you my conclusion? I think it's a good one. Oh God, yeah, that's all we got asked about when we got nominated this year. But I think my final conclusion on it is the best way for me to digest that is nobody's good enough for her.

Oh my God.

And I love that, and that's true, but I'm I'm the next best thing.

That's right, brother. Yeah. Yeah. You're killing it.

You're killing it. That's the message. The message isn't against me. No. It's nobody's good enough for her. And I love that. I'm glad that's how she feels about her. Yeah. And I'm glad that's how America feels about her. This is real.

This is real.

Yeah. I can live with that.

But to me, I just love what you two represent, which is—

1950s. Old school.

No. But I think sometimes people have an idea of who they're supposed to be with. That idea is never as good as who they're actually supposed to be with.

She said I was supposed to marry like head of UNICEF.

She was supposed to marry Mike Schur. Oh wow.

You know, a good boy. Mike's pretty successful.

Well, and he's just a good human being.

Oh my God.

He wakes up thinking how he can help other people. I don't. I wake up thinking about speedboats. Okay. I'm like, should I order a Donzi? I used one.

No, but you also type of person that said, I got to get a Madeleine before I die.

Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's real. I do want to ask one thing and you can say no. Okay. But you were with someone for a couple of years. Uh-huh. And then you got married and it only lasted a couple of months. Uh-huh. And I'm dying to know if something about the title fucked everyone up or you up personally.

It wasn't the title. No. Okay. It was me. Also feeling like even though I'm not as happy as I should be, I think this is what I'm supposed to be doing. And I just didn't have the language or understanding of that. My happiness didn't feel like it was important. I think what was most important was that I honor this relationship.

Right. Keep this thing going whether you're enjoying it or not.

Yeah. Because of how much it's changed my life and how grateful I am for it and how amazing this human is. And I don't wanna say happiness, I don't wanna be frivolous about that. Like, I think we wanted different things. One of the things is like, I actually realized I didn't wanna have children. And that's a pretty big life change. And so, but I, at that time, I just thought, I just kept putting it off. And so that wasn't me lying. It was me still trying to understand what I wanted and who I wanted to be. And I think that's why for me, it's really important having this perspective, stepping back, 'cause like we have to really ask ask ourselves whose life we want to— because a marriage and a relationship is the blending of two lives, truly. And so you have to really ask yourself, what life do I actually want? And I don't think I was very clear about that. All I knew was I want to be with this person. I want to have this house. I want to have this dog. I want to have this mural. But then I didn't ask myself, but like, where do you want to be in 5 years?

Like, really?

And in its best version, it's like, I wanted this life, this person wanted this life, and then magically when we get together, the two of us get a life that neither of us even thought of. Right, right. And that's like me may be the greatest thing that can happen.

Yeah. I mean, or you could say, "Yo, we have impacted each other's lives in such a significant way, and now this might be where we give each other room to go and have lives that make sense for both of us." And that might look like not being together. That's brave.

That's hard to do.

Yeah, but I didn't do it in a way that was noble, that was honest, that was kind. It was done in a way that felt like a car crash. And that's because I didn't know I just sort of like was driving the car too fast, not knowing the gear, and just sort of going. And that doesn't remove accountability for my behavior.

It's hard to exit these things elegantly. Very few people—

I wish I could have, you know, landed the plane better. You know what I mean? But I think ultimately, and again, it's about giving yourself grace and kind of looking back at it and go, "Oh, you could have handled that much better. You could have dealt with that in a different way." But what I do also understand and accept is that I'm where I'm supposed to be. I know she's where she's supposed to be, and I don't have any ill will toward anyone.

If anything, will was toward myself. I think for me, the greatest feeling is I was with a woman for 9 years. I still love her to death. We're friends. And her life turned out so fucking good. Nice. And I'm like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

This part of life is like 10 times better without her.

That's where it could kill you. If you crash the car and the person's fucked up, that's hard to live with. But if you can look back and like, oh, good, she's so happy. She has the perfect husband and the perfect kids and fucking mwah. So happy.

And that's amazing. To me, it's how you know you really love somebody, is that when you want them to be happy and happier without you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 'Cause I don't know if that happiness would've ensued if I would've stayed there. To me, removing myself, I think, was actually the right thing to do because I wouldn't have been able to deliver the life that I think she would've wanted. Yeah.

What are you most excited to do? You've done so many things. You have created many, many shows. You have Them on Amazon.

Obviously, we have— The Chi. The Chi.

Yeah, wrapping up. May 22nd. Coming out May 22nd, Paramount+.

Last season of The Chi. Shy Says Goodbye.

Okay. Shy Says Goodbye. This season. Yeah. What are you dying to do? You're also a producer on Cats, which just got nominated.

Yes. Angelica Ball, myself, Cynthia Erivo, Jeremy Pope, LaRoach, John Legend.

Nominated today for— For 9 nominations. 9 nominations. Congratulations.

One of the ones— thank you so much. One of the ones I'm in there is for Best Revival of a Musical.

Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now let me ask you, were you a fan of Cats? No. Yeah. The whole time I'm like, what's going on?

And then I went to go see this version where It's told through queer Black ball culture, which really makes so much sense. It lends itself to this world so well. It's almost like it was meant for this world.

Couldn't agree more.

It's phenomenal. It was perfect.

That world would've made sense in the ball world and almost nowhere else.

Exactly. Paris Is Burning. I highly recommend everybody check out also, you know, Criterion Collection, Jennie Livingston, phenomenal documentary, changed my life as well. What's that about? That's about the ball culture. She, she made a documentary about it when she was coming outta NYU. And it just is a, a movie that has been such an archival of our queer Black ancestors. And what they were doing at the time and the things that they were saying, but also speaks to reality of the time, what was going on. So obviously love that. And then I went to go see this show at PAC, which is where it started, and I was blown away by it. And then I wanted to be a part of it, and they were kind enough to let me join the team and came over to Broadway. And here we are. Really special.

So do you want to do another show next, or do you want to do a movie, or do you want to do more AT&T commercials?

I'm doing a movie, writing a movie now, which is an adaptation adaptation of a short story called "Grand Rising," which is something that you guys, if I say that, you kind of go like, "Huh, I don't know what it is." It's a different way that sometimes Black folks in certain groups say "good morning." Instead of "good morning," they say, "Grand rising." "Grand rising" is something that sometimes if you're like a little more enlightened, you sort of say that. So, this woman wrote this amazing short story. I read it, loved it. I raised my hand to see if I could possibly come on and adapt it. They were kind enough to trust me with that. Fox Searchlight is doing it. We're not telling much about what the movie is, 'cause I think that's the new thing now, be a little bit mysterious about the storyline. Let folks come, experience it. Experience it for themselves and see what it is. But I'm working on that right now. A couple TV show ideas. Maybe wanna play with, like, what it is to be in your 40s. So stay tuned. And then, yeah, theater, theater, theater. That's what I care so much about, just 'cause I think with everything happening with the streamers and people not really wanting to go pay— go see the movies, live entertainment is something that we can't deny.

And it's like Station Eleven. It's like they're going around town performing Shakespeare for the people for entertainment. Because when all of this stuff shows up, shields down, what do you have is people that can interpret words on a page and inspire you and move you. I think it's why Hamnet hit us all. Shakespeare sort of wrote about the most difficult thing he ever had to experience, and we just know it to be one of his great works. But to see that movie and to see how that story was happening in real time, obviously the way they were showing it, just reminds me that this is how we actually like I like to be communicated with.

I'm ashamed to say I haven't seen it yet.

It's okay.

Don't worry about it. I have kids. Isn't there just— Natalie Portman. That's another excuse. That's another excuse.

Yeah. That's okay. She didn't see F1 when Brad came.

She was like, I don't—

Yeah.

I don't know what the fuck it was about.

She said, you know why? I was editing this show. I couldn't make it.

She was like, Brad, I haven't seen the movie.

Continue. I hear it's good. I actually heard she loved it.

Her hair's fine. Her hair's fine.

I heard you're fine. I heard you look fine. I can see that you are fine.

I heard you look good in it.

I heard you look good in it. Nah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So theater's my shit.

Lena, I just, I adore you. I really, really, really like you.

That feeling is mutual.

I really, really like you. I'm so glad I got to spend a couple hours with you that day, and my heart swells when I think of you. And I'm really glad you came. And I want everyone to watch the final season of The Chi, May 22nd on Paramount+. Go see Cats. Yes, please.

Watch Them. I was a part of season 1 of Them Covenant. Season 2 I wasn't, but I think both All seasons are really strong. Okay. Also Tonys.

We're putting out good vibes. Come on.

Win all the Tonys. Come on, Tonys. The Anthonys, as I call 'em. Get you a couple Anthonys. Anthonys. Let's get that EGOT going.

Look, come on, let's go. I know. Got the Emmy. We gonna see what happens.

All right. Be well. Thanks for coming.

You too. Cute shoes, by the way. Thank you so much.

Stay tuned for the fact check so you can hear all the facts that were wrong.

What's up? What it is? What is up? How are you? I'm good. You're good? Yeah, yep, yep, yep. Okay, well, we both went to Delta's play.

Oh my heavens, that was a big event. It was a huge event. Big event in events that happen within the event.

Yeah. Yeah, tell, do tell. Yeah.

Um, okay, Mary Poppins. Yes. And I think some backstory is necessary, and you can help me be objective here, but Delta's like, she's never been super into acting or musical theater or singing. Yeah, like just a mild interest. I think she's done a few little plays. Uh, I think she did last year's school play, but she just seems— she seems to be in it for the social aspect of it, which is great. So we all went— you, Anna, me, Kristen. Who else was in that 1 o'clock show?

Uh, Kristen's mom and dad.

Oh yeah, Kristen's mom and stepdad. And, um, for the first two-thirds of the play, no Delta.

She's not in it.

She was not in it. Yeah. And we— you were directly behind us with Anna, and we were having some fun. Up until then, right? Yeah, because there's a lot of goof. It was the first run-through of it. There's— yeah, there's lots of mic errors. There's, you know, there's the expected stuff.

Yeah, we've discussed the plays before. Yeah, it's the whole—

it's the whole school, so there's second graders out there, you know. Yeah. And everyone did a great job. Everyone did a great job. And it was also very fun.

You know, you can hear the mics in the back, you know, the same same, same old stuff.

Yeah, yeah, all the standard fare. And, uh, I think even Anna said, is Delta in this, you know, at some point? Yeah. Then she came out, she was Mrs. Anderson. And for people who don't remember, and I'm not super well versed in Mary Poppins— yeah, Meredith Poppins— yeah, she splits at one point and they bring in Mrs. Anders, and she's an old-fashioned old— is it Anders or Anderson? Anders or Anderson, you know, take your pick. Okay, to me, I don't Tomato. Okay, she comes out and she's a bitch. She's mean to the girls and she's shoving people around. Yeah, and right when she came out, she— full commitment, full energy. Yes, she came out with a real presence, a real presence, a real intention. Yeah. Um, her immediately— her dictation was off the charts.

Oh yeah, they have to do accents, which I should— I just wish they would take that off these kids' plates.

I think, you know, all in all, they did pretty darn good.

Yeah, I think if you got like adults to do it, the accents would have been much worse.

Like, just a random sampling of adults doing British accents. Probably true. I was like, it's not— I was expecting to hear something real. It could be worse. Some real snafus.

Yeah, I just feel like they should have taken that with how— what was going on.

Like, they needed enough on their plate.

Yeah, yeah. But anyway, she did a great accent.

She did a great accent, and you could understand everything she said, and she was projecting.

She was loud. She was.

And then she has a soul. Solo song. All right, maybe you take over now because I might sound too subjective as a father.

Well, I'm subjective too. I don't know that I can be very objective. Yeah, but no, she just did so— she just like had so much confidence. She sang it so well. She wasn't scared. Like, you know, you're kind of scared when these kids are singing. Yeah, like obviously anyone singing, if any play, it's like, oh God, like, what if they mess up? Or what if they— stressful. It's very stressful. And, um, she just knocked it out of the park and was so confident and like loud. Like, she belted like with her diaphragm. Like, she did it all right. And it was, oh, it was so wonderful.

Yeah, two mega belts. It was the last one with her on top of a staircase, and she looked possessed. Yeah, she— like, the level of commitment, and she was screaming to the rooftops, and it was holding. Yeah, I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it.

I mean, from last year's play to this year's play, major jump.

Oh my goodness, major jump. Like, we have 4 performers in the family. Sure. And she just threw down a performance that I I think might top, you know, both Kristen and I's professional work.

Well, okay, I don't want to— sure, now I guess we are getting subjective because that's not true. But, but it was like, I think last year at this time we had this conversation here that was a little touchy, but I was like, she's not committed. Like, no.

Well, she was more— her mission on that previous one, as we talked about, was to make sure everyone else was doing— yes, she was being very bossy, like vocally.

Like up on stage, like telling people, get over here, get over here.

Yeah, yeah.

And I was like, oh no, like, I wish she would just commit. Yeah, no. And then boy, did she take the note. I mean, I didn't give it, but— right, right. She learned on her own, and she really just— she brought the fucking house down. It was so good.

It was so exciting.

I said, we cheered like it was a Super Bowl.

Yes. I said, wow, okay, so that's what the experience is for these people who have kids that are great athletes and like for a touchdown. I know. I've never really had that experience yet. Yeah, no touchdowns in the family, no, no goals scored. And this was— I get how the parents get addicted to it.

Oh yeah, it was so exciting. I know. Yeah, we were rowdy screaming for her. It did remind me, I told you this, but, um, there's a picture of the state championship second year, I think, maybe first year, I don't remember, but there's a picture of the parents, and, you know, everyone is just like freaking out. There's this picture of— and my dad is out of his— wearing a hat. He's like wearing a boa. And yeah, they like hand these out or something. In my head, he has a boa. Maybe he didn't. He's like, yeah, up out of his seat screaming. And it does— it takes over. It takes over when your kid is like crushing. Yeah. It's so exciting.

And then the moment that was tied for that moment where she was on the steps at the end yelling from the bottom of her soul as loud as she could was— I was— and Lincoln was there all day volunteering to help all the girls backstage. Yes. Get in their outfits.

And as an, as an alumni. Yes, yes.

And I had this, you know, 30% anxiety over— okay, well, one child has already declared this is her path. The younger sibling now has just come out and fucking crushed. Oh wow, okay. What will this reaction be? You know, what will seeing her get so much attention and praise from us, um, do? I had some anxiety about that. That. Yeah. And I think you were standing there.

I was.

It was so sweet when Lincoln ran out and they met each other. And, and she ran out, gave her a huge hug, and she picked her up off the ground and squeezed her. And she was genuinely so pumped for her.

She was so proud of her. It was so sweet. It was so sweet.

My heart was just destroyed at that moment. I'm like, oh yeah, siblings, man. Yeah, it's more important than anything else. Yeah. What? Well, no, you know, I don't know. You don't know about that statement.

Um, yeah, so it was—

did you ever see Neil crush at anything? And did you give him the full— no, no.

Okay, only now.

I mean, he's crushing at fatherhood.

Yeah. No, um, no, I was really hard on him. Yeah. Yeah, it's— um, but he needed it. Yeah, he needed it. Uh, he's— look at him now, he's doing great. Yeah, it all paid off, my mothering. Um, but yeah, no, it was really, really sweet and I loved it. Um, and then there was a 5 o'clock which I didn't go to, but there was a big incident. Yes.

So we're at the 5 o'clock, the curtain's down, we're— we're intermission, right? It wasn't intermission, it was just between some scenes where there was a little downtime. Time. Oh, and so the curtain was down, and then all of a sudden you hear from the audience this horrendous crashing sound. Yeah. And it's like, it's substantial, right? The, the kind of ground shook. Yeah. And my only thought was like, oh, did one of the sets— because they have pretty big sets on stage, like two-story sets— did one fall forward? Yeah. And oh my God, are— where are the kids? Yeah. And so I'm thinking this, and then Kristen jumps up and goes backstage because she's like, you know, clearly something's happening. You can hear kids back there, like, they weren't screaming, but there were noises. Okay. So she goes back there, scopes out, comes back, and she's like, you are not gonna believe the size of this tree that just fell into the school. And so after the play, I went and looked back, and there's this, like, you know, like a cement balcony with, like, a really huge steel railing, maybe a loading dock-ish thing off the back of the gym.

And this enormous tree, like the width of our oak tree in the front yard, like the, the trunk had to be like 36 inches in diameter, maybe more. It just exploded and it fell in all these directions. It bent like the, the big fence post size, uh, railing. Yeah, it was just crumpled like a taco. A huge branches on there. A table that they were all sitting on so scary 10 minutes before, uh, was flattened. Oh, it's crazy. And I was like, oh my God, I just was like, yeah, my first thought was, oh, this is why it's completely pointless to worry about your children, because you're not even gonna think to worry about, I hope a random tree doesn't fall on them on the fucking playground of the school. Some people do think like that. I mean, but it's always too much. It's not generally— people are worried about kidnapping and all these other things. That's true. Yeah. And it's like, okay, so thus far the closest call we've ever had was just a tree exploded in the backyard of the school. Yeah.

I mean, freak accidents do happen. Yeah. Yeah.

It's very scary. You just don't even know what to worry about. That was my thing.

Yeah, that's a good takeaway.

Like, yeah, that's crazy. That was almost a fucking newsworthy disaster.

Oh my God, that would have been so— it was crazy. But everyone will have a different takeaway. Someone will be like, I knew God was real, you know. Someone will say, sim me, probably. Um, yeah, there's, there's a lot of takeaways. You just choose. Yeah, you get to pick.

Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's much meaning behind it for me other than just, oh, it's a good reminder reminder that like life's that way. Yeah. And it's really pointless to even worry about anything. Yeah. That's a great example of confirmation bias, right? It's like whatever your overarching theory on life is, everything, every bit of proof will file in and support that. Yeah. So it's like for you that, that proves the world's scarier.

Well, I didn't say that.

Or I'm sorry, didn't mean to give you that, uh, yeah, label. Yeah. And then for me, it immediately confirms like, yeah, what a waste of time to worry.

I don't think I thought like the world's scarier. I just feel like, yeah, things go wrong all the time. Yeah, yeah. But also I think like, wow, so lucky. Just like, oh God, so lucky. And we're just missing things all the time. Oh yeah, yeah. Just like constantly avoiding catastrophe all the time. Yeah. But yeah, like yesterday I was walking down the street and there were so many cop cars, but they weren't regular cop cars. They were all like just like black, unmarked cars, unmarked. But then one was like on, like had lights or whatever in the back. But there were so many in a row.

Where was this at?

On Western. And I was just walking by noticing all these cars, and, and I was like, oh well, something is going on. Something's probably bad. Yeah, yeah. And I thought, oh, do I— should I go home? Like, this is right where I'm about to be. Okay. And you're going to Cara? Yeah, I was walking to Cara. And so it was next to—

by the, um, Baskin-Robbins, or that weird apartment building between— yeah, that sketchy apartment building.

Yeah, yeah. And I was like, I mean, there could be a bomb in there. Um, should I go home. But then I was like, I mean, they'll probably get it, tell us to leave. Like, they— I, I guess I trust that someone in charge would tell us to leave there. And there was a cop on the street and he just said hi when I walked by. So I was like, I can't be that bad, right?

He didn't say, ma'am, go on the other side of the street.

Exactly. Or, you shouldn't be here, ma'am. Ma'am, you shouldn't—

you didn't ask him what was cracking?

I wanted to. I should have. And then, because And when we left, they're still there. And someone was yelling at them because cars were blocked in and he was yelling and I didn't wanna bother them.

They're probably executing a search warrant.

He said when I, I heard one of the cops say something like, when we finish the invest, we're almost finished with the investigation. Okay. So, so someone went missing and I was like, maybe it's a bomb or maybe it's a jumper or maybe it's a big jump. Drug, like probably a big drug situation, or, um, hijack, sex work. It could be a sex situation, um, a negotiation, a stand-up hostage negotiation. I mean, there could have been so many things.

Yeah. And you're like, I wish you would ask, because he would have told you. You're a cute young girl. He would have like wanted to tell you about it.

You would have made a little more than it was.

Like, yeah, we just, you know, we had this— you probably like, you know, fluffed it up a little bit.

Officer, should I go home? Am I safe to go home or should I stay next to you?

Will you protect me? I feel safer next to you.

Um, yeah, he's like, I'm just coming out.

I was first one in, so they told me go ahead and have a 10-minute break, which is why I'm out here.

But I was first. But normally I'm in there.

I was, I was first one in there. Once I saw it was not dangerous, then I was Oh, it's not dangerous? Well, it could be. Could always be. Could always get dangerous. Probably want me to stay close.

Oh, okay. Yeah.

What are you doing for dinner?

I'm hanging out with my friend Jess. You'd love him.

Oh, you can go. All right, have fun. I think we're all wrapped up here.

Okay, this is interesting. On— okay, dates. So we have a friend who just went on a first date. Oh, we do? And, um, oh, this person, uh, brought me up a few times because I'm in stories. Sure, right? Yeah. And then at some point, the girl— a girl, it was a girl on the date. It's a lesbian on a date with a girl. Okay, okay. And she brought me up. Yeah. And then at some point, the girl on the date said, should I know who that is? Oh, okay. And then my friend said, oh, she's my friend, blah blah blah blah. And, um, I— then she was telling me this and I was like, yeah, this is tricky. It's— it can get tricky if you're bringing up your friends a lot on a date, but they don't really know the backstory. They don't know like the level of friendship or whether either part are less compatibly—

exactly— sexually attracted to one another. Yeah, if you're bringing up Jess all the time, exactly, they don't know he's gay. You got to go, my gay friend Jess. You go, my gay friend. I know, but she should have said my straight friend Monica.

I know, but that seems like a weird thing to say. Like, oh, I mean, he comes up, like, he, he's— he comes up, right? And so yeah, I guess I have to say like, oh, my, my friend. I think I'll just say my friend Jess, and maybe it'll be obvious he's gay.

Uh, I mean, I don't know. I don't know. To me it's obvious he's gay, but I, you know it. I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He at least has a name that could pass as a female. Oh, right, that is true. But if you're talking about, um, Beefy Burger or anything penis-related, he'll—

don't think I'm probably gonna bring up beefy burger. Um, yet, yet it will come up. It will come up. Um, but anyway, yeah, it's like a weird thing about how much you talk about the other people in your life on a date. On a date. I think it's only the opposite sex if you're straight and same sex if you're gay.

I think it's only, um, a thing if you're talking about your ex a lot, which is also fine. Oh, on a first date. Yeah, there are versions of it that are are totally fine, right? If you guys still have complicated feelings about your ex, right, it's not the place to discuss that, nor is it this new person's duty to comfort you through that, right? There are all these rules. If you've been with someone for a decade and you're talking about your life, yeah, and then we're gonna ignore the last 10 years of your life. You know, like, of course, if you were with someone, come up. Yeah, I don't think that's a big deal.

I don't think it is a big deal either for me, but I think a lot of people would say that's wrong. Like, everyone has these—

I think those people are really insecure and that's their issue. Yeah, I don't think it would bother me. Thought of someone have— having had an ex is too disturbing for you, right? You have some insecurities. Yeah, that's not— it's not that other person's.

I know, I think I'm kind of like I want to know. Sure, all the details. Yeah, I do, but I don't want them to ask me, so I think I'm just leaving that off. Okay. I think it's like a— it's just like, hey, let's—

what kind of questions would you want to ask?

Let's not talk about any of our past.

Okay, but we're, we're now on a date. We're on a date. Okay. Hi. Well, I like you. Further along, we're dropping into like the, the— I want to know exactly like what kind of info you're interested in about the ex. Can Yeah, because I think so.

Well, you have to bring her up, I guess.

Yeah, um, well, we had to, um, we were sharing our dog and then it just got kind of ridiculous, and finally I was like, just, you can have Snookers.

Ah, that was probably hard. I have a friend who is going through that too. It's really a boyfriend. No, no, a girlfriend. A girlfriend. A girlfriend of mine. Um, yeah, but it's tough. It's tough. She's gay. No, she was straight.

She was my girlfriend.

No, my friend is gay. Oh, okay. So don't worry.

I was hoping you would— I would figure out what your— what you want to know about the ex.

I know, but—

well, what do you want to know about an ex?

I don't know.

We have to practice. You want to know what they look like physically, don't you? No, I actually don't.

I don't. Are you sure?

Well, you don't want to find out if they were Indian? Oh, fuck. Because I know you got a whole thing about that.

I don't want— if he— okay, do it again.

You might need to— yeah, okay. Yeah, so anyways, we had booked this trip and like we talked about going on it together, but I was like, I don't want to be in Bombay with my ex. So I was like, you can just take someone else. Oh yeah, and I transferred my ticket. Okay.

Oh my God, first of all, that would not— to me, I'm not like, oh, so she was Indian just because you were going there.

I'm just trying to, um, tempt you in that direction.

Oh, um, have you— I don't even— I wouldn't even ask. I would say— I would say—

I would say, have you been there?

How long were you guys together?

You don't think you can go, have you been to India before? I mean, you don't care. You just want to know about the girl now.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, I almost was about to say, oh my gosh, I went to India last year on this kind of random crazy trip and it was, it was so, it was so cool because I've only been one time before when I was little and it was really cool.

Oh, are you Indian?

I am, yeah.

Well, I thought you were Lebanese.

Oh no, no, no, I'm not. Uh, well, I mean, I, I was born in Georgia and raised there, but my parents are Indian. Oh cool. How long were you with your ex? Or how long were you with her? 5 years. Wow. Wow. Yeah, from 46 to 51. What happened? Do you mind me asking? Um, sorry if that's too private.

God, well, I mean, what happened? Like, a million things happened. Really? Yeah, as happens in a relationship. Yeah, it's hard. Like, I could list things and it'd probably just be me blaming her, but I'm sure I'm half the reason. That's very evolved.

Yeah, yeah, that's involved in you. Yeah.

What are you gonna order? She's— oh, you're off of it. You know, she old, she young, is she Indian?

I'm not asking that. I am never asked this. Okay, I, I was on a date once where it came up, but I didn't ask. He brought it up. What did he say? He said like, I'm crazy for Indian and her family and something about Indian princess. And I was like, I hate this. I absolutely hate this. Oh wow. If anyone says Indian princess to me, um, you're not for me.

Well, what is the stereotype? Exactly. I don't know. I know of the Jewish American princess. That's a— that's a stereotype. Yeah, Jap. It offends both people, two groups of people at once. It's a twofer.

Even if someone said Jap to to me. I'd be like, I wish you didn't say that. Yeah, sure. You know, actually, someone I, I love said it recently, and I was like, were they referring to a Jewish American princess or a Japanese person?

Oh, you didn't even get that part? Oh yeah, I forgot. Oh gosh.

Okay, Jewish. I thought you were saying it offends princesses and Jewish.

No, I don't care about offending princesses. They're, they're a tiny group.

Your wife is a princess.

Not a real one. She is the closest we got.

She played a princess.

There's actual princesses. Oh yeah, I forgot. Yeah.

Okay, well, I don't want to offend them either, but, um, um, I can live with that.

Like, picking the group, talk about punching up or down royalty. Yeah, yeah, punching up a royalty.

I'm fine with that. It's more the Jewish part I didn't love when, when they said it.

Yeah, well, I'm from a very Jewish area of Michigan. I know. So that term was used a lot, right? And quite often by Jewish people, right?

Well, they're allowed, but this person wasn't Jewish anyway. Okay, if you said, if you said it to me on a date, say it somehow. Jab. Oh, are you Jewish? Yeah. Oh cool.

Um, I love— hard to be Jewish right now.

Oh my gosh, I know. I, I feel, I feel like the world is— this is a genius, by the way.

If the first dat— if the first date has, is somehow strayed into Palestine, Israel, it's a bad—

I'm going to the bathroom.

Yeah, go. Oh my God, I'm going to— I got to go. I got to— have you heard of Tonka I'm gonna go tonka all over the floor in the bathroom. I'm gonna go to my— because I prefer doing that than having this conversation.

Well, yeah, no, I know, I know. But you know, I do get deep, and I do worry sometimes that like I get us to a place we're not supposed to go too soon.

Oh, well, that can be fun.

I know, but then it's like not fun because then, yeah, we're talking about— I don't think it's what I know so far, which— oh, I guess I should people going on a date. That should be clear. Oh, okay. Um, from what I know so far, I just don't— I think he's very chill. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't think we're gonna talk about, um, global news, global politics.

Yeah, that's good. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. What if he's super into crypto and he wants to tell you about crypto the whole time? That's a hard one. Even if everything else was like a thumbs up.

Yeah, I think I would say— what would you say? I'd say—

I'd go, have you heard of Belizeum? Oh, it's a 1-to-1 currency. It's so strong and promising. Oh, I haven't heard of it. I bought for $13, um, a coin, and it's already up to $13.90.

That's cool. Do you— how, um, do you know Ben McKenzie? Have you ever heard of Ben McKenzie? He was from The O.C., but he's also—

I never, I never saw The O.C., but I heard it was really great.

Yeah, I actually also didn't watch it. Oh, okay. Um, but he was a big actor on, on that show, and he's also an expert in crypto, and he was just on—

what's he— what's he— what's his holdings? Which ones is he into?

Well, he's actually pretty critical of it.

Oh, oh, he's a hater. Well, he's just mad he didn't get in when Bitcoin was—

maybe, maybe he's just jealous. Maybe. But I do— you have a podcast? I do, I do. Yeah, I do.

Are you, are you Lebanese?

Uh, no, I'm not, I'm not. I Yeah. Do you think only Lebanese people have podcasts? That's an interesting leap. Hey, I got to go tonka.

Oh, that's what you parked in a lot called Tonka or something?

That's when you poop in your car.

Oh, so you're going outside to poop in your car? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fuck yeah. Can I come? Oh, you're—

you're— well, that could salvage the whole—

yeah, fuck, that sounds good.

I got perked up. That's It would probably be a crypto guy that was into it. Yeah, so it all makes sense, you know, trade-offs. Yeah, everyone— no one's perfect. You're not gonna get it all.

No one's perfect.

No, it's gotta— you gotta get the right things.

Anywho, um, I mean, full honesty. Oh, Rob, he might be here.

Lucas or the breast milk guy?

Breast milk guy. Colostomy man. Rob is going to pick up another drink for us using his ID.

It's not alcohol. Full honesty. Yeah, I'm on a date. Yeah. And the girl goes, if you'll excuse me, I've got to go shit in my car. Dude, I would be so into that. No, I would. I would be like, wow, who's this person? You would know what I mean.

Yes, I would. You would be like, who is this person? Yeah, I'm intrigued. You'd be intrigued. Yeah, but you would not on a first— you would be like, she's crazy.

Well, no, I would have some follow-up questions. Okay, so tell me.

Oh my God, um, I'll be right back. Okay, uh, do you mind waiting? I have to— oh God, I, I have to go tonka. What's, what's tonka? It's when you poop in your car. Okay, and I have to go right now.

Oh my God, you have to poop in your car right now? I do, I do.

Okay, hold on. Do you mind waiting?

Well, I don't mind waiting, but can I just ask you a question? I know you can see it's pressure.

Yeah, yeah, it's kind of time sensitive.

Why go in your car and not the bathroom here? Oh, I'm just like so uncomfortable.

I'm really uncomfortable pooping in front of other people.

Oh sure, that's— yeah, people are like—

I just have like a privacy thing and I know I'm not gonna make it home. How often do you do this?

Every time you got to go to a normal bathroom?

It's only happened once. It almost happened again and I can tell it's gonna happen right now.

Okay, I'll— how about I come out and I'll I'll just hang by the car, make sure no one bothers you. I know, because you don't want anyone like knocking on your window. Or if I see a dude peeping, I'll be like, bro, fucking give her some privacy.

Okay, that's really, really nice. But the whole—

and I can hold your bag too.

Oh, you don't have a— there's no bag. You just like poop on the seat.

But that bag next to your feet, do you want me to hold that while you're—

it's really kind. Um, I, I— the whole—

let me be a lookout for you.

Okay, this will be fun. No, okay, the whole issue is privacy. Okay. I'm going to look the other way, though. Okay. You're being— you're being a little pushy.

Oh, you think I'm a weirdo now? Well, I got to tell you something. You're about to go shit in your car, so why don't you fucking back off the judgments, Tootsie? Now let's go. Grab your bag. Oh, this is a great date, dude. It's so memorable. And he would be like, cut to the 3 years later. I can see him with a microphone in his hand and his tuxedo on. And I'll go, I knew there was something special about Monica when on our first date she looked at me and said, if you'll excuse me, I have to tonka. And for those of you who don't know, Grandma Jane, Grandpa Bill, tonka is when a woman uses her car to defecate in as a toilet. And I thought I should get out of here and run. No, I'm gonna provide lookout services. And I'm so glad I did. Oh, this is great.

People would cry.

They would also throw up. Not the people at your wedding.

Fuck, I hope this all goes down, man.

This sounds like a great— can you please knock on wood? You better not hope that on my date I have to tonka. That is literally worst case scenario.

Unless he loves it, and then you guys have fast forwarded to like such a level of intimacy and trust and connection.

I mean, if he has to tonka, yeah, interesting. Not me. Uh, I don't want— okay. I don't want to be the girl who's in her car all the time. Okay? It happened one time.

Not all the time. No one wants to be.

I know, but you're the one— you're kind of manifesting it for me. You wanted me to put a bag in my car. Trash bag.

Why not? You just act like that's where you put your trash.

Manifesting.

That's manifest destiny. Do you know if you're driving together, you're meeting there? Okay, that's supposed to be the safe thing to do.

I don't know if it's safe or not, but one time I was on a date where the man picked me up. The male. And at first I was like, oh, I like that. Yeah. And as soon as he picked me up, I hated it. Oh, I was like, I really don't like being trapped in the car. I don't— now I'm aware of how he's driving. Okay. Me, precious cargo. Yeah. And at one point he was just staring, and I didn't— then I was like, you need to look at the road. I didn't like any of it. So We're just going to meet there.

Okay, great. What though, how do we handle a nighttime—

he's not— we're not doing this first date, Dad.

You guys can kiss.

If he drives you home, then, then he's got to get out and like open your door and clean out the tonka from your back seat, put it in your trash can, and then he might want to give you a kiss good night before you go inside. If he wants to kiss me after I've tonka'd, what Yeah, what a stud.

Well, a stud and kinky. He's kinky. That's pretty cool.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we like him.

We like it. Pretty cool. Okay. All right. Anyway, some facts. That's just some facts. Okay. Um, okay. She talks about Half Man, the show, and you've since watched it.

I'm glad you're bringing this up. Yeah, she was dead right. She loved it. I love it. And now I even see what she was saying because at the time, remember I think I said like, yeah, you and I watch things differently. Like, you're recognizing when someone's being represented, like that's important to you and you'll always notice it. But anyone would notice it. Yeah, like the show is, is that type of show. Yeah, where it is, um, it's exploring some weird shit that goes down in most boyhoods that I'm aware of. Yeah, just weird. Boys are so the fuck. I don't— yeah, I don't think girls know how weird boys are. Little boys, there's like a whole window where they're so bizarre. I cannot tell you how many of these boys were constantly trying to show me their penises, and they wanted to sword fight and stuff. Yeah, like they just don't— they have these penises and they don't know what they're doing. They don't know what they're getting. They want to get them out. Yeah, smack them around. I was just like, ah, stop. I don't— I'm not into all this sword fighting.

You weren't? No. Oh, because you were already—

I think because I had already been molested, maybe it was like I didn't like the whole thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But when, when we were in like hunting and gathering and we were naked all the time, yeah, yeah, I bet they weren't playing with them. It was like, it was just normal.

This is when I read this really interesting article and it was about how cultural everything is, to the degree of molesting. Yeah, here it means one thing, it's always inappropriate, and and it's always some kind of like deviant sexual behavior. Whereas they were paralleling it with this group, this hunting and gathering group, that like when they see little kids, they juggle their balls, right, as a greeting. Oh wow. The dudes aren't perverts. There's nothing sexual going on. Yeah, they, they do the same activity that here we would— it would be trauma. Yeah. And it's just so interesting. I mean, that— how the power of— I know what— and it's all about does it induce shame or not. And in that culture it doesn't because everyone was getting greeted by getting their balls fondled.

I know, but that is weird though, because innately though it is sexual because that is also a way to get aroused.

But again, because the, the culture is so strong and the context is so strong, it's not— they don't get aroused. It's not a sexual activity. I didn't grow up there, so I have my thing, right? Anyways, I'm off on a long trajectory here. Uh, makes sense. I can't remember what we left base, but Half Man is so good. Yeah, with similar tones being explored as DTF St. Louis. Like, that relationship between Bateman and Harborough was so intimate. Yeah, it was male friend constantly hugging and stretching each other, breathing on each other. It's just like this level of intimacy fantasy that certainly I didn't see on TV growing up, right? And by the time I did see it on TV growing up, it was explicitly sexual between two homosexuals. Exactly. This is this weird zone. I know. Of this— yeah. Even though you weren't—

it wasn't represented for you, you still did it with Aaron.

Yeah. So like Aaron and I had a very, very intimate, very physically touchy friendship. Yeah. But no penis business. There were no penises coming out. Yeah. But not nothing. There was no weird sexual component. I'm talking about the behavior that had all— oh, it's like this weird sexual—

well, Bateman and, and David Harbor didn't have any sex.

They didn't, but it was confusing. And there were times where it seemed they were both confused by the intimacy. Sure, sure. And then he's even gonna hook up with a dude, or he's like, he's open to— if he can give a guy an erection, he'll like that, right? Just because he'll be desired, right? So just getting into all this fun gray area. So Nate and I love that show, of course, as did you. I loved it. Yeah, but we were talking about it at lunch and he goes, dude, the other show that's even more extreme than that that I, I've been watching, I want you to catch up so we can start watching together, is Half Man. Yeah. So I did. And then last Friday when we had the day off, Nate and I went to lunch and then we came and got in the theater room and watched 2 episodes back to back. And it was, it was so fun. Oh, it reminded me like being in my 20s or something. We're just watching TV. I love that.

That's really fun. Um, okay, quick— quickly, is Adam the one— Adam Mosseri, the one on Instagram with glasses who sends updates? I mean, I think so. Oh yeah, okay, he has glasses.

That's definitely what she's talking about. He makes tons of posts directly to camera letting users know of new features.

Yeah, regularly posts direct updates about the platform. He's so fun. He's so cute. He said we were his favorite food.

He's so smart too.

He is. Who is the model with the gap tooth named Lauren Hutton. Ah, iconic model. Something came up and you said everything worth having, like everything worth having, whatever.

It's hard.

Yeah, basically. And it reminded me that in high school, Callie's mom got her this little compass necklace. It was from Kohl's, and on the back it said, there are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going. Yeah. Okay, good. And I loved that. And then they bought me the necklace because I loved it so much.

Oh, that's nice. And, um, I I love that saying. Um, there's a dude in AA who has a similar, um, saying that he says all the time. Almost every share he says it, and I love it every single time, which is, uh, I found out that the shortcut is the quickest way to the back of the line.

I like that. Similar. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shortcuts the quickest way to the back of the line. Although it'd be quicker to just go to the back of the line before you do the shortcut, so it doesn't hold up.

Yeah, because like, if you're, if you're cutting the line, which is the shortcut, you're not at the back.

Well, the point is the shortcuts never work and you always have to go back and start the way you're supposed to. I understand the point.

Okay, yeah, we'll stick with yours. I like mine. What was yours? There are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going.

Ah, okay. I love it. Cole's Cash. Cole's Cash, man.

Uh, uh, Callie also got a tattoo of a compass. That was her first tattoo. Tattoo. She got a compass on her ankle. It was in college. She has since gotten it removed. Oh, she has? She didn't like the way it looked in pictures when she was like in heels and stuff. Okay, okay.

Um, compass is a very popular tattoo.

Is it? I don't know anyone else with one. I mean, I don't know a lot of people with tattoos other than you. Not your scene. Uh-uh. Um, and her. Um, and Anna. Okay, I know a lot of people. Charlie. Charlie. Rob. Natalie. Natalie. Everyone has tattoos, actually. Erica. Wow. Yeah, Charlie. Yeah. Okay, Matt. Whoa. Um, at least half. Mike Nichols. Yeah, at least half my friends. That's probably right. Mike Nichols says about conversation, a conversation falls into 3 categories: a negotiation, a seduction, or a fight.

A negotiation, a seduction, or a fight. This isn't— this isn't theatrical realm, right? This isn't every scene or—

or conversation. Yeah, okay. It says, or conversation falls into It has to be one of those three things. A fight, a seduction.

But life doesn't have to. A lot of conversations.

Doesn't have to, but I think he's kind of saying like it is, like he's representing life and like that is what happens in life. Life as we know it. I'm watching the network. Yeah. Okay. The catchphrase from our AT&T commercial, Rob said it in the interview, just okay is not okay. She thinks there's another. That's what I'm seeing too.

I think I'd found another one too. Did you? After. Let me, um, your way right away, more for your thing spots, I think was her.

Oh, get more for your things.

Let me see. That's not a good—

that's abstract. That's not a good phrase. If AT&T wants to hire me, yeah, I will say the shortcut line.

Okay, only that line? Yeah. Oh wow. I'll say anything you want, AT&T.

Actually, I will too, not to outcompete you, but yeah. Oh God. God, you could hire—

you could hire Monica. You should know she's only gonna say one sentence.

They should hire me because a long time ago, I think— have I done an AT&T commercial? I'm sure I maybe have. But I do know one of the commercials I lost was an AT&T commercial, and it was down to me and this— my nemesis. And she was my nemesis. I lost, I lost, um, a couple roles to this girl.

Okay, she wasn't Indian or Lebanese. Did you end up knowing her? Um, I like— you chat with her at auditions? Um, hey, you beat me out. I bet you beat her out a few times too.

Maybe. I forget her name, but she was like up and— she was like becoming a thing. Um, and I forget her name. Okay, but she beat me out for this AT&T, I think, like campaign. Okay, so I was upset, and I knew the directors I had worked with them a couple times, really loved them. Um, and so that was upsetting. Yeah, that was a, that was a hard one.

You lost a couple hundred grand probably.

Fuck. Anyway, so they should make up for that.

Oh, AT&T, hire me now as a voiceover.

And like, now you're getting bigger bang for your buck.

I only say one thing, but you're getting a bigger bang for your buck. That's right. Yeah, trade-offs.

I have a voice for radio and AT&T commercials. That's what they That's what they say.

That's what they say. Yeah. You have a face for AT&T commercials.

Oh yeah, I have a face for radio. Okay, I have a face for radio and a voice for AT&T commercials.

That's what they say.

That's what they always say. Yeah. All right, well, that is all. Those were the facts. That is all, yes. Well, I love Lena. Me too, great app. I love her. Great app, love her. She's so lovable. She is, she's very smart and wise. Yeah. And interesting. And accomplished. Accomplished and just good chatter. She's good chatter.

All right, love you. I love you.