Transcript of Gisèle Pelicot Tells Her Story

I'm Ayesha Rosco, and you're listening to the Sunday Story from Up First, where we go beyond the news of the day to bring you one big story. Before we start, a warning. Today's episode discusses sexual assault. In September of 2024, Giselle Pelico took the stand in an unprecedented mass rape trial in France. On trial was her former husband, along with 50 other men. In 2020, police found images and videos of her husband and dozens of men raping her while she was drugged and unconscious. Pelico had the right to remain anonymous and keep the trial behind closed doors, but she chose to open the trial.

In the beginning, I did want it to be a closed trial because I was ashamed. But I walk a lot. So as I was walking, it started coming to me little by little. I said to myself that the shame needed to change sides. And by having the closed trial, I was giving them a gift.

The trial was widely broadcast and drew international attention while provoking a national reckoning in France. All of the defendants were found guilty, and Pelico's former husband received a maximum 20-year sentence. Now, Giselle Pelico has written a book about her experience. It's called A Him to Life. She recently spoke with my colleague, Michelle Martin, through an interpreter in Paris. They talked about the pain of discovering what had been happening to her.

When I saw those photos, I did not recognize myself.

I did not recognize that woman.

The harm it did to her family.

It's false to think that this type of tragedy brings people closer together. It doesn't.

And also about her decision to speak up on behalf of victims of sexual assault. When we come back, we're sharing that powerful conversation. Stay with us.

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We're back with a Sunday story. Here's NPR's Michelle Martin with Giselle Pelico.

Madame Pelico, it's a great honor to speak with you. I know that sometimes you don't enjoy these accolades, but it is a great honor to speak with you..

Thank you. She's very happy to meet you as well.

Let's start with the book. What made you want to write it?

I didn't have the intention of writing a book at all, but during the trial, proposals came in, and then I started thinking that maybe this could be helpful. Maybe what was happening to me could help other people. It could serve a purpose. The message basically is that no matter what difficulty, struggles, trials, and tribulations we're going through, we have to gather our strength and we can stand up to it.

The book is very beautifully written. I wondered if you knew that you had a gift for words, or is this another gift or strength that you found within yourself after you went through these traumatic events?

I wrote this book with Judith Perignon, who's an amazing writer and journalist, and she was very open it, and she helped me work through a lot of the difficulties that I experienced.

She had a very open ear, an open mind, and was a great listener, and I trusted her completely.

Did you understand before these events that you had this gift of storytelling, of being able to share your story?

No, I didn't I didn't really know that I had a gift at all. It's just about telling my family's story. I go through three generations, three women, my grandmother and my mother, three women who I'm telling about their pain, their suffering, their joy de vivre, or the best for life and their resilience. I looked deep inside myself and I just found meaning in all of that.

First, let me just say that I have many questions, but if there's something that I ask you that you don't want to answer, please just tell me.

I can answer anything and everything related to the book.

So the first thing I wanted to ask is when you describe when you first learned from the police of these terrible things that your ex-husband had done to you. One of the things that you said, and this is revealed in the transcript, is you said, I don't know where I am. Can you just say more about that?

When I was first called to the police station and Lieutenant Perret shows me photos, he shows me three photos, and I don't recognize myself.

Photos of what Mr. Pelico had done to me. I just don't recognize that woman. I don't recognize the place. I don't recognize anything there. Then it hit me like a TGV or a high-speed train is what I say. That's how I describe it. There was this explosion inside me, and then it was like a tsunami. I said, I don't know who that woman is. He said, But that's your bedroom. That's your lampside table. That's you. I just couldn't fathom that Mr. Pelico could have done those things to me.

That's what I wanted to ask about.

Is it that you literally did not recognize yourself because you had been drugged Or is it that your brain could just not accept that someone you loved and who you thought loved you could do that?

When I saw those photos, I did not recognize myself.

I did not recognize recognized that woman. It was like some rag doll disguised, and I didn't recognize the people around me. It's like my brain just couldn't understand it. I dissociated. My brain dissociated. I spent many hours at the police station, and when I got home, I spent three, four hours. It took me a long time to actually say the word rape. For that to actually creep into my mind, I couldn't even fathom it.

Do you recall when you were finally able to fathom it?

No, it was very, very difficult for me to realize that this was someone I'd spent 50 years with.

I couldn't even think of it. I just couldn't imagine that he would do those things to me. It's not like it was just a single person. There were 53 people arrested and convicted, and there were still some 20 or 30 who weren't arrested. There were some 20, 30 who were out there. I only really got to know Side A of Mr. Pelico, where he was kind and well-intentioned, but I never really got to know the side B of him that was not and who did all these terrible things to me. It was very difficult.

One of the things that struck me about the book is that you came to learn that some of the people who did these things to you were people you encountered every day. I mean, people you might pass in the supermarket or on the street. I just wonder how you think about that now when you're out in the world, do you ever think perhaps someone you might pass in the street is also someone who did these things?

.

Well, actually, I only ever met one of the individuals outside of that situation. It was someone I would see at the bakery. But no, I couldn't imagine that that person would come to my home and rape me, go to someone's house and rape someone who's sedated by a medication that Mr. Pelico would give me at night with my meals or in drinks. When I would go shopping, Mr. Pelico would have these people set up meetings for them to to see me and check me out as I was doing my grocery shopping. No, it's unimaginable. It's unthinkable. I couldn't imagine these individuals. Even one of them, the one I was referring to at the Bakers, he was young. He was in his 40s, and he had four children. He had come to the house to buy bike tires or something. It was a made-up excuse. He even denied that he was involved in any rape or anything whatsoever. No, it's just unthinkable.

But one of the things that really strikes me about the book, one of the things that I found so moving about the book was so many things, but that you refuse to give up the side of Mr. Pelico that you knew before. You insist on this throughout When you read the book, you insist that the part of your life that was happy, you wanted to be honored and understood and respected. I was so struck by that, and I wanted to ask if you could say more about that.

Yeah, I remember. Of course, I try to remember the happy parts. Otherwise, it would just mean that those 50 years were nothing but a lie. I needed to believe that those 50 years weren't alive to keep on living. I just tried to remember only the best. We had happy times. There were happy times. We were married really young. We fell in love really young. We had three kids. We had seven My grandkids, I can't erase that. That's part of me. What I do try and erase, though, is the darkness, Mr. Pellicode. I try and forget that, but you can't really forget because the scars are indelible. You can't make them go away. But the really bad parts, I just try and take that and throw it in the trash.

The other thing that you're very honest about in the book, which I also found very moving, was that the abuse abuse was visited upon you, but your entire family suffered for it. That the relations with your children became very strained at various times. I wonder if you could say more about why you think that happened. Why is that?

.

Yeah, as I said, it was an explosion that just rippled through the entire family. It's false to think that this type of tragedy brings people closer together. It doesn't. Everyone is trying to heal and rebuild at their own pace. Relations are better with Caroline now. They've settled down a bit.

Your daughter?

Yes.

I realized that she was expressing and harboring a lot of hate and a lot of anger. It's what had happened, what was done to her mother. We have different relationships. Her relations are difficult with her father, but it's a different relationship because I was the wife, the mother, and she's the daughter. It's still very difficult because there were not only pictures of Caroline, but there were pictures of my daughter-in-law's as well. Everyone's just trying to move through this as best they can and at their own pace, and it's taking time.

Of course, one of the things that many people in the world most admire about you is that you chose to have the trial be open. It was your choice as the victim. You could have had a closed trial. In fact, through most of the trial preparation, that had been your plan, and you changed your mind. You write about this extensively in the book, but would you say more about that now? Why did you decide It's true.

In the beginning, I did want it to be a closed trial because I was ashamed. But I walk a lot. So as I was walking, it started coming to me little by little. I said to myself that the shame needed to change sides. And by having the closed trial, I was giving them a gift. All these people, all these men, their names wouldn't have been known, and what they did wouldn't have been known to the world. It was just about suffering. I realized that part of this trial was not just my trial, but this was a trial for all the women who suffered sexual violence, all women who'd suffered rape. In fact, me doing this was for all of these women, for these women who supported me. I had thousands of letters coming from people around the world supporting this. It just gave me so much strength.

Can you say more about those letters or the people who communicated with you? Were there any that stand out even now?

Well, I never really realized that my voice, what I was saying, would echo throughout the world, well, beyond our borders.

Then the international press started coming in, and there were letters from the US, there were letters from Spain, there were letters from Italy, from pretty much all countries. A lot of them I had to have translated because I couldn't read all the languages. It's just that my situation echoed with theirs and their suffering and their identity. I realized that we really things needed to change. The shame needed to change sides. We had to have a collective awareness raising because we couldn't allow things to continue to go on the way they were. But even today, we're seeing similar situations. Ultimately, it turns out that you couldn't see the forest for the trees. It's just the beginning.

Was that shocking to you that so many people found resonance in your experience?

No, it No, not really.

It's just their support gave me so much strength. They gave me the strength to hold up during the 3-4 months of the trial. It's just okay. I don't know if I could say I'm happy, but I gave my name to the cause, and I just felt because of them and for them that I was committed, that I had to do something. I had to find a way to thank them for their support.

Of course, it was not all support. There's a long history of victims of sexual violence being blamed for it or being told that they are complicit in some way. This also happened. There was the implication that you were part of some swingier community, et cetera. How did you cope with that?

Through the trial, of course, I was completely humiliated I experienced total humiliation.

I was considered consenting, complicit, a suspect. When I was able to speak, I said, I'm the only guilty party here with 50 victims behind me. I think what saved me is that we had the evidence, we had the proof. Whereas in a lot of cases, women don't have proof, they don't have evidence. It's the woman's word against the assailant. I guess part of all this was really about when victims speak out, they They need to be heard, they need to be recognized. Because what happens is the accused parties always turn the situation around and say that they're being victimized, they're being accused, and they're being victimized because they're being accused. That's what helped me keep standing throughout this whole trial is that I wanted them to be convicted. I wanted them to be put away for what they did. That's why I was able to stand tall, be dignified, and keep going on because I knew that they were guilty, and I was not guilty despite the defense trying to say that I was.

You're listening to the Sunday story. We'll be right back.

Akela Sheryls remembers the day in 1992, when the Bloods and Cribs gangs in his Watts neighborhood agreed to a ceasefire.

We had a barbecue. It was like it became a family reunion.

I mean, we had a three-decade war.

So The release was just extraordinary. Listen to the Ted Radio Hour on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

It may seem like a ridiculous question given everything that you experienced, but what was the most difficult part of this whole experience?

Well, it was when I found out what had really happened, the reality of what really occurred, it was having to call my children. There are difficult things you're going to have to tell your children. You're going to have to call them at times to announce a death or an illness or whatever. But calling my children, having to tell them what their dad had done, that was very, very painful.

Again, this may seem ridiculous, but is there any part of this experience that stands out as a blessing, if I may put it that way?

First of all, I'm happy to be alive. I thank the universe that I'm still standing. I'm not having the blackouts anymore. I don't have the memory loss. I'd seen so many neurologists, gynecologists, went under the radar for all of them. I think that had Mr. Pellicot continued doing what he was doing, I wouldn't be here today. I'm lucky to be alive. I'm lucky to be here with you. I'm lucky to be able to speak out. I'm lucky to help and support other victims whenever I get a chance to talk to them. I want to tell them, Don't doubt yourself. Don't doubt that little voice that's telling you what you need to do. I'm very lucky just to be alive and to be here, and in good health and still standing tall.

Madame, you know this already, but your dignity and resiliency through all of this stands as a beacon to so many people. I'm just wondering if you feel that you have some words of wisdom for other people who may be experiencing something unimaginable, something that has helped you to continue to stand in your dignity and your resiliency.

I would say, first of all, don't lose your self-confidence. Listen to that voice that takes you in the right direction. I had doubts. Everybody has doubts. I had doubts at times, but I would tell them, Don't have shame, don't be ashamed, don't be afraid. Confront your aggressor. We all have a force. We all have a strength inside that we can use to help us strive forward. Keep your eyes on the future. Look ahead and just look ahead and stand tall in your dignity.

Of course, the question that remains is why? Why would someone do this to someone, especially someone that they claim to love? Do you think you'll ever have an answer?

I don't know.

I don't know if I'll ever have the answer to that question. I do know that I choose light. I choose to move towards the light. Mr. Pelico, he chose darkness and went into the depths of human depravity. I didn't know. I didn't see it in him. Will I ever have the response, the answer to that? I don't know. Yes, he did say that I was the love of his life. He even said at the hearing, at the trial, he said Then, I was the love of his life. How could someone put someone else in danger like that, offer her up to others? I said, I'm a martyr. I was raped over 200 times over 10 years. I had illnesses and had to take antibiotics and even had a procedure at the end of this year. I'm fine now, but I have to ask, why? How could someone do that? How could you treat How could a human being do something like that to someone who's the love of their life? I don't know. The question is still open.

And toward the end of the book, you suggest that at some point you might speak to Mr. Pelico again and ask these questions of him, even though you don't necessarily expect an answer. Have you done that? Have you spoken to him since?

No.

So far, I have not. I never was able to talk to him, never was able to exchange with him. I only spoke to the judge, so I never addressed him directly. Yeah, I do intend to speak with him, to exchange with him. It's part of my rebuilding, part of my reconstruction. We We had over 50 years together. We had three children together, seven grandchildren together. Yeah, I do intend to speak to him, and I hope I'll get some answers, but I may not.

Before we let you go, you end the book with an extraordinary statement. You write, I still need to believe in love. I received it intensely and too briefly from my parents, and for a long time, I believe that it protected me from everything. I even believe that I knew how to give it. I now know that it comes from a deep wound within me that makes me vulnerable. But I accept that fragility, that risk still, to fight the emptyness I need to love. It's an extraordinary statement, really from anyone, but especially from someone who has been so deeply hurt by someone who claims to love her. I just wondered, where does that come from? This ability, not just this need to love, but the ability to still love. Can you explain it?

Well, first of all, I'm a humanist, and so I'm someone who cares a lot and pays a lot of attention to other people.

I think love can save the world. At 73 years old, I had the great fortune of meeting someone. Life put someone on my path, a wonderful man, a wonderful soul, kind person values. I just had the great fortune of being in love again. I just think that you have to believe. You have to believe in life. You have to trust. I think if you don't love, you don't exist. If I don't love, I don't exist. I need to keep on loving. Yeah, I do indeed.

Well, as I said, it's been a great honor and a privilege to speak with you, and I think you're extraordinary. I am so grateful that you survived, and I'm so thankful that you were able to speak with us and to tell your story.

I thank you, and I had a great time spending this time with you. Merci. Merci beaucoup.

That was NPR's Michelle Martin talking with Giselle Pelico. Her book, A Him to Life, will be released this Tuesday, February 17th. This episode of the Sunday Story was produced by Justine Yann and edited by Jennie Schmidt. The conversation was originally recorded for Morning Edition. Julie Deppenbrock was the producer, and the editor was Adriana Gallardo. The interpreter was Tamra McGinnis. The episode was engineered by Jimmy Keely. The Sunday Story team includes Andrew Mambo and Liana Simstrom. Our executive producer is Irene Naguchi. I'm Ayesha Rosco. Up first, we'll be back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

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