Transcript of Laird Hamilton: The Mindset That Changed Surfing Forever | Sean Callagy

Some people are built by life. He built himself out of cold water, open ocean, and a refusal to accept any ceiling as final. He swam a mile against the current, injured in shark-infested water to save his teammate's life. Then the moment that teammate was safe, he went back out. Not because he was reckless, because that is who he is. The truest living example of what becomes possible when identity never negotiates with conditions. Laird Hamilton.

Like, I'm gonna surf An effing big wave. So, so do you think we have a shot?

Well, so my mom used to say, you know, the way God punishes you is he gives you what you ask for. So we can definitely accommodate you.

Okay.

And we'll bring you back in one piece.

And he is down to the bone and he's bleeding to death in the ocean. So Larry gets like naked in the ocean and like takes off his clothes and makes a tourniquet.

If you were naked and you were swimming a mile offshore in an area that you knew that there were some big sharks, you'd be an incredible swimmer. Like, if you're truly generous, you'll risk your life for someone.

Zoe St. Laird Hamilton, ladies and gentlemen! Thank you. Okay, how are you doing, sir?

Very well, thank you.

Thank you so much for being here.

Honored. I'm honored to meet you and meet your beautiful people.

Thank you. And as these folks know, because we were going to surprise them with your coming today, but we decided, because it just fit in a moment, I decided to share that you were coming. Uh, you know, these folks know out there, um, how inspiring you are, uh, to me, how inspiring you are in the world. And certainly many of these people were inspired by you before hearing your name here. Some discovered it, and uniformly these people are truly deeply moved. Um, so what I'd love to do, if it's okay with you, is just Maybe begin at the beginning. Hawaii, being born, being 3, what was that journey into the water and life like for you?

Well, my mother met her high school sweetheart and got pregnant. Then it was the '60s, so he wanted to be a Merchant Marine and she was pregnant. So he left and she had to figure out what she was going to do. She went to San Francisco and I was born there. She actually worked at a fair right before and was able to get like a free hospital thing done in San Francisco. They did some experiments on her. I'm not sure if that had an effect on me or not.

Well, if it was, it was a good one.

Exactly. And then she just took me, you know, she grew up in a surf culture in Southern California. She took me to And it was, you know, it was obviously the '60s, it was the war, it was all the stuff that was going on. And it was like, you know, they called it— the surfers called it the rat race, and we need to get out of here. So she took me to Hawaii because that represented paradise. Uh, and as an infant, I was kind of subjected to, you know, surf— surfers and surfing, uh, I went, you know, I can remember being pushed in on little waves when I was probably 2 years old and falling on urchins and having both butt cheeks impaled to the point where I couldn't sit down for a couple of weeks. And, you know, left an impact on me, of course, and in me. But, you know, the— And then we moved to what was the most dangerous beach at the time. My mother said that I could actually crawl to the pool and swim before I could Um, before I could walk. I don't know if that's a—

Wow.

Truth or not, but I would go to the pool and each day they always had to watch because I would always just go to the water. And maybe it's being a Pisces or something, it has something to do with it, I'm not sure. But, uh, and then we moved to the most dangerous beach in the world, and, and I— that I learned how to swim, uh, at the most dangerous beach in the world. And, uh, actually I learned how to not drown. That was really the better thing. More importantly, never mind the swimming, just don't drown. And, and I got rescued a lot as a young child, and all of the men, uh, that were around me were all watermen. You know, they were all, all kind of the fearless group of, of surfers that were going out in the big surf in, in Hawaii. And so that was, you know, I wanted to emulate that. I looked at that and I was like, I want to— that's what I, you know, it'd be like if you grew up next to a stadium and you were like, hey, I want to be like that guy, he's the champ.

And, uh, and so that was a foundation, uh, you know, I, I introduced, I introduced my dad, uh, to my mom. I liked it. That's the story they let me tell. I think he knew my mom was very attractive, and so he acted like he never met her. And I'm like, hey, come meet. And, and so technically I Chose someone who I thought would be like what my dad would be and introduced him. How old were you? I was 5, probably 4 when I introduced her, but 5 when they got married. He was young and a great surfer, handsome. I mean, it's kind of crazy because in ways, you know, my wife has seen pictures of him when he was young And she's like, she thought that they were me. Like, that's, you know, and no relation, like no relation, but like, oh yeah, is that you? And I'm like, no, that's Bill when he was young. And so I had that dynamic initially, and then it turned into kind of a competition between him and I.

Wow.

In Hawaii, you know, I never cry poor me, but when you're you look like I do and you're in Hawaii, you kind of, you know, you're like a descendant of Captain Cook who destroyed the place. So they don't love you.

Yeah.

So I had that, and my family was poor. We grew up next to a pig farm, and I grew up next to kind of farming, fishing, hunting, all that kind of stuff. So I had all that as I was growing up to help teach me and was always attracted to the ocean because that was a place that I found equality. That, you know, I always say we're all equal before a wave. There was no discrimination. I didn't care how rich, how smart, how strong. It was the only thing that separated you from the other people was what you knew and what they didn't. And so I really liked that because that was something that I could actually perfect. So if I got better at it, the better I got at it, the more I could separate myself. And maybe it was a place to look for Respect. I always would say, hey, I don't care if you like me, but you'll respect me. And so I, I worked on that, and I had a natural, uh, I had a natural inkling for danger. I just was like a little daredevil, and I think that's what probably drove my mom into an early grave.

I think my mom, you know, she always thought I was going to die. She's like, oh, he lived to 6. Oh, he's lived to 8. You know, he lived to 10. Wow, he's 12. He made it. You know, he's 14. It was like every, you know, every day, every year, it was, it was, you know, crazy stuff. And we lived like, like a little bit like wild Indians in the jungle. No shoes, no pants, maybe shorts. Lucky if you had a t-shirt. Usually no shirts, just surf shorts in the jungle and sharp things and coral and, and strong riptides. And so that, that was kind of the foundation of my, uh, of my school was terrible. Um, not a place I wanted to be. You know, you're in the tropics, it's beautiful, there's surfing, and then you're gonna go sit in this like room and be with a bunch of people that don't like you and you had to ride the bus for 2 hours each way and I was just like, I seem to miss that a lot, that bus. Like a lot, like a lot, like most of the time, like I just think I miss that bus.

And so I had that as my kind of my foundation and then as I grew I just was attracted to bigger and bigger situations. And I think because of my background, like all the things that we had to do, we'd always have to fix everything because you didn't have— there was no one to call. You didn't call somebody to fix things, you fixed them, or you knew somebody in your neighborhood who fixed them, so you learned how to fix them. So I think that helped me be creative. They did some weird stuff to me in my education which affected my reading initially.

Wow.

mom used to read some amazing books to me growing up. She, she, uh, she read like Lord of the Rings and Jonathan Livingston Seagull and all these beautiful books, uh, to me to expand my imagination. And so, and I think we had, we had TV, but we had rabbit ears with, with aluminum foil. And we had a bare tin roof, so you'd watch a movie on TV that you could barely see. and then the rain would come right at the conclusion. And so you'd always just never hear what happened. You'd be over there by the speaker and you're like, hey, what's this guy saying? So it wasn't, you know, and then the TV went off and didn't go on until the next day. So we didn't have a lot of, you know, we didn't have a lot of outside interference. And then I was able to be with Hawaiians that were beautiful, the Polynesians, and learn their— they still lived off the land at that time. There was no Costco yet. That kind of put a hammering on that, like hunting or go to Costco. Well, easier to go to Costco. But I was able to kind of like in a little bit of a time forgotten, and I think that definitely has had a huge impact on my creativity, on my ability to kind of problem solve, all those things that really, really helped me in the pursuit of kind of my passion.

And, you know, my mom didn't— I think the first time my mom saw me surf, she might have been like in her late 30s or something like that.

Wow.

Maybe early 40s. And we were surfing at Jaws. It was giant. And somebody goes, oh, Laird's on a wave. And I think they said she walked out to the cliff, she looked, and she just turned around and goes, I can't watch this. And so—

Wow.

So, but she— my mom was always about just how you were as a person, you know, like what kind of person you were, how you treated people. And, uh, that's what— what, like, that was the rule. Like, I don't care what you do, when you do it, do it the best to your ability. And, uh, I don't care if you're sweeping the floor, sweep the floor perfectly, as best you can, 100%. And so it didn't matter what the task was, it was always about completion and, and giving it your, your, your best effort. And so, and she worked You know, my mother worked very hard growing up. She was, uh, my stepdad didn't— just wanted to surf, and so he wanted to be on welfare. And my mom's like, I'm embarrassed to go to the store and pay with food stamps, and I'm not going to use discount coupons. And so she started going to work and eventually started the first helicopter company in Hawaii that toured because she had a friend that was a Vietnam vet, and eventually just built a whole life for herself and for us.

Wow.

I mean, I can remember my mom going to the laundromat. I mean, we had all kinds of rules at my house. The one I lived in had been moved twice by tidal waves, and we had like screen windows and a bare tin roof. And like I said, when it rained hard, you, you couldn't really talk because it was so loud. And it rains a lot on Kauai. It's the wettest place in the world. And so there was a lot of not talking, you know.

Can I say one thing? So I want everybody to know this, if I could for one sec, that— so we've had a lot of incredible people, um, on this podcast, and, um, they've been like nice folks. Some have acted very nicely, some have been a little more interesting. So, you know, this is Laird Hamilton, and he's in the house like, like taking my plate and like, I'm gonna throw this away. And no, like, I got the water and I'm gonna help do— I'm— he's like, I'm carrying the surfboard. I'm like, Laird, please, like, I don't want you carrying a surfboard. Like, that's crazy. He's like, of course I'm gonna carry the surfboard. And he's like, what do you want to do now? What do you want to do next? And I'm like, oh, if you need a break to rest, like, Nah, I could chill anytime I want to. Like, I'm here to spend time and like, let's go do stuff. And I just wanna say how grateful I am and how much he lives his words. You know, we hear people say, well, my mom taught me and we had rules and you do things, you do it right.

Like, that could sound like a cliché except when you're actually living it. And I got to experience that not because of him just being in the water today, which was a dream come true for me, and again, thank you. But I'm sitting there and he's carrying surfboards and he's picking up plates, carrying them, and not only his own, but like trying to take mine and take it. So let's give it up for that, please. Yeah, no, thank you.

Thank you.

And right, so thank you.

Um, we do, we do live in a time, uh, please, that when you help people, it's a novelty. And it's kind of weird in a way. I'm like, you do what you're supposed to do and that's somehow a novelty. I'm like, that seems strange. Like, and that's— we're a little bit in that time right now, it seems. My wife and I talk about it a lot, just like, you know, acting how you're supposed to, being kind, being polite, doing the things that you're supposed to do. is now rare. And that's, that's a crazy world to live in because that's not what the world's supposed to be. And so it's, it's, uh, it's— yeah, I mean, I guess everybody has to live by their own code, but I'm just like, be how you're supposed to. And like, wow, that's, you know— and I'm not saying that, you know, that no one's doing that, but you, if you— when you live in this world, it seems rare. when people are actually, you know, just acting like you're supposed to act, being how you're supposed to be, be polite, be helpful, do the things that you're supposed to do as a person in a community, as a person, a part of the human race.

It's like, hey, somebody's hurt, help them out. Something— the thing, like, you know, my mom used to take in stray dogs. I mean, she had this one dog that was just the most mangy dog you've ever seen, and I used to have to wash the dog. I'm like, they wanted to put it down. Like, they were like, hey, they're going to put the— she's like, oh, we're not going to put that dog down. I think his name was Snags or something like that.

But so today, and, you know, continuing this context, a lot of different people are like, could we shoot a quick video? Could we do a quick this? Could we do a quick that? And that was certainly not with Laird blessing us with coming here within the scope of what we were talking about. And he just, no problem, no problem, no problem, no problem. And at some point I'm like, oh yeah, no, they're also, you know, with us here. And he said, Yeah, okay, cool. He goes, but I'd do the same thing if they weren't, right? And that's just for all of us. I— why am I saying this? Not only because, um, to acknowledge that which we would hope people would act like, but most don't, but also to let everybody know when you're interacting with people who hold a tremendous identity value. Um, a lot of those folks, or at least some of those folks, will be very kind and generous people, like Magic Johnson was to Darren, like Laird was to people all over that beach today, and neighbor walking down the street, you know. So don't— I invite you to not limit your thinking that because somebody's achieved a certain level of identity or relationship capital or monetary capital or skill set that they will not potentially be an open-hearted, good person.

Don't take advantage of that, right? Seek to add value to what we say, but a conversation can be opened far more often than you might think. So thank you.

Yeah, well, because it's easy, I think, to be— to let judgment get in the way, right? We just think, oh, that they're like that, so this is how it is. I think, you know, I feel like you always want to give somebody an opportunity. Now, if they prove you right, that what you think is right, then, you know, cool. But maybe they'll prove you wrong soon.

So thank you. And so can I ask this?

Yes.

As you're developing and surfing, I guess 2-part question is like, when do you first begin to see yourself separating in skill? And how does earning an income, earning a living, like at what stage does that sort of move into the equation? I know we were, you know, joking, you know, teasing. I know modeling is there, surfing is there, like What's the evolution of that surf separation and how Laird Hamilton begins to earn a living?

Well, first of all, because my route was so unorthodox, I was not participating in contests because I watched my stepdad surfing contests. I watched the judgment and the way the system was run. I didn't want to subject my performance to that criteria. which made it more difficult to earn a living. And, you know, I always, I tell my daughters, I go, find your special purpose, you know, find the thing that really brings you a passion. I go, if you're fortunate enough to get to do that as your job, shame on you. But, you know, but, or you'll subsidize it. And so in a way, a lot of the things I was doing, initially was to just subsidize. I would do anything to subsidize my ability to keep pursuing my goal. And I believed in my heart that if I could just be the best I could be, that that would take care of the monetary side of things. That that would be an aftereffect. I believe in ideas. And I think that the result, that the financial rewards only confirm the idea how big it is. It's like this Steve Jobs idea around a phone, that's his idea and the result is it is what he thought it was.

So it's really idea-based. And then I was fortunate as I went, I got you know, I got sponsors. I got— I mean, because when you looked at what I was doing, it was like, well, people pay you because you get exposure, right? And so in a way, like, if you get exposure, people will pay you. And so for me, it was like, okay, well, if I can, you know, be the best I can be and do and let the chips fall where they may, and I would have subsidized it. I know how to run an excavator. I can work. I'm not scared of working. And I do work and have worked and will work. And so I was never afraid of it. I wasn't trying to avoid it. It was just that I was able to turn that into a business. I was able to turn my art, because technically it's my art, it's my self-expression. Riding giant waves is just— I'm expressing who I am and what's in me. And so in a way, through that true pursuit of expression, it's allowed, you know, it turned into a business. And, you know, and that began to change some of the ways I looked about it as well, because then I was having to adjust what I was doing for that and took some of the soul out of it.

But from that came a lot of other opportunities. And so, you know, I modeled at some point for a little while, just just because that was easy money. They go, yeah, go stand there, take a picture, and then you get some money and go surf for another year.

Listen, for everybody, this is really the point of the entire immersion, is just all go model and get pictures taken yourself, and then you can do whatever you want. Yes, if you're up for that, say yes.

Perfect. Maybe not what you're thinking, but—

So, Laird, so, but if I could, what— so you're surfing, right? And this is developing, and your mom's like, oh my God, he made it to like 8, and then he made it to 11. Yay! Like, oh my God, he turned 14. That's incredible. How was the concept? Because if you're not clear, there's And I don't wanna— there's a famous surfer, because I don't wanna say anything that Laird says to me in private and say it publicly, but a famous surfer who is very competition-based and very successful, you know, surfing on much smaller waves, then came to, like, Laird's backyard and was like, yeah, peace out, no thanks, right? So there's a world of surfing that is on a much smaller wave size where you do cool things on waves, and they're incredibly masterful, talented people. And then this other world evolved and developed that Laird pioneered of surfing on bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger waves. So if you don't mind taking us through how that was sort of evolving, and prior to you coming along, like how— And there's many different ways to measure wave size. Like we've been through this.

This is a very triggering dynamic for Laird, right, of like what a wave size is and That's not the measure of a wave. There could be big waves that are easier and small waves that are much harder. But what I'm looking to enter into the space of is where you started to break from the one context, which is surf smaller, but good-sized surf.

Competition-based, because it was more tangible. So they had surf competitions and they, it's like gymnastics. You bring the American gymnasts to Russia and you're confused why they're losing because you have Russian judges. And so, I mean, I experienced that and the industry was really built around that because it was more— it's framework. We can have it on Sunday at 1 o'clock down here at Jersey Beach. And so everybody shows up, but big waves, you have to wait and could be months. I mean, they come during a certain period. But I always felt because as a young man, surfing was evolving and the competition aspect was growing. And so there was 2 groups. There was like what we call free surfing, which were the people that were just surfing, and then there was like the competition. And so I watched that and I was like, I felt like if I can surf the biggest waves in the world the best, then I don't care what you're doing. It doesn't matter to me. Like, I don't care if you're the world champ. That doesn't mean anything to me because I feel like if you surf the biggest, the best, then that would, in my thinking, would mean you're the best.

Like, you'd be the best at that point because that's the pinnacle, right? And so just because of the danger and the skill and all the— and just everything about it that it takes to do it.

Okay, so sorry, can I— so at what age did that come into your mind for the first time that I'm going to surf bigger waves and bigger waves and even bigger waves and bigger than that waves? Like, what was— how old were you and what was some of the stages of that?

Well, the first, you know, I always talk about tribal tests, you know, like when do you put a male into some tribal test as a, you know, as into manhood and puberty or whatever. Like, you get 13, 14, you start getting stronger, you're like, hey, I'm going to go out and and push myself into bigger surf. I was younger, you're just not physically strong enough to really be able to deal with it. And then you're competing with men at that point.

Yeah.

And so it started then. I think I was always attracted to it and I was building up as I went. It wasn't just a leap of I surfed small waves and then I surfed giant waves. And then, but it was, but I did have the opportunity when I was very young that there were a few men that would just— they wouldn't even— you wouldn't even see them unless the surf was giant, which when I say giant, I mean like, okay, 50-foot faces, right? So you wouldn't see these guys. All of a sudden they'd come out and then everybody else that was surfing all the time that was— that were considered the best surfers, well, they were nowhere to be found. And so I was like, that's the group I'm going to emulate. That's the one. Those are the guys that I— that I'm like, that's— those are the guys for me. And so I had that early. I had that as a young— and I think I was pretty obnoxious as a young man because probably because I was scared. And which, you know, usually, usually when you're scared, you're obnoxious. But so, so I was obnoxious and I'm going to be the best and blah, blah, blah.

I was pretty mouthy. And the adults would always say, hey, Laird, just shut up. Be quiet. Stop it.

And—

Do you think— do you think that I like him even more now? So—

So, so, so then, so then, so then it starts at that age and then I start pushing it, right? I'm getting bigger, stronger, better at doing it, and I'm getting myself to a point where I start getting to the ceiling, right? I get to the ceiling. I'm in my early 20s, um, and I'm, you know, like in most sports, you know, you're in your early 20s and you're, you're, uh, you know, you're at the— I'm at the level, I'm at the top of performance. in my genre, in big wave riding. And so I'm just pushing that. And then there gets a point where there's a ceiling, right? There's a ceiling where the waves on certain days are too big or too stormy for us to go and ride them. And I'm not satisfied with that. And so At the same time, we're doing a bunch of other disciplines. We're windsurfing. We're doing all this crazy stuff. We're going out to sea on windsurfers and getting on giant swells. So I have an epiphany, like, there's another way. I've had a few of these over the years. I have an epiphany that I'm going to be able to— that we develop a technique to be towed on.

And so we implement that right away.

Can I ask this? Before, you said we, like, so before—

The friends that I could suck out with me, usually I could probably convince somebody. I mean, normally parents would always say, you can't play with Laird because I would— like, you're not allowed to play with Laird because they usually come home with stitches or something would happen because it would be like, you know, like, hey, Laird said to, and then they'd be hurt. You know, so parents were like, hey, you can't play with Laird. It was always like, I think for a parent, it was like high anxiety if your child was with Laird because somewhere in there, something, it's either a bike off a giant, just something bad. It's always bad.

But here's the fun part, right? This is, and this is what being a GHIC, we call it Growth Driven, Heart Centered, Integrative, Committed to Mastery, is about. I seek this out because I am that person with all the people I know, is the person that's like, don't go in the water with Sean, don't go on the ski mountain with Sean. But then what I find is where I can go back to being the gecko to Godzilla. And that's what you're all doing here. And it's so exciting. I love meeting people who are exponentially better than me at things I love. So this is like complete insanity for me today. And again, thank you so much because I'm that guy that it's like, well, be careful, don't hang out with that guy. If you heard from people at some point, don't go listen to Sean, don't go hang out with Sean, say yes.

Yes.

Right, so Thank you. And it makes me even want to be more like that now because I have a large gap to close because I'm a gecko and that's Godzilla.

So there's always a Godzilla and we're always a gecko. So that's important. Thank you.

And so, so as you are— and so was— had anybody to your knowledge been going into waves toe surfing on a jet ski, or was like your crew with a first, was a couple of other pods? Like, how did— when did that happen? And like, what's that backstory?

Well, I mean, it started before jet skis, so there wasn't even jet skis. And I had— one of my first jobs was driving like those Zodiacs that the Navy SEALs have, and I grew up driving those and kind of in and out of the surf and through waves. So I knew how to drive, and I had another friend that had the same experience. So we started with inflatables originally, and it happened— the original thing happened in the summer. The surf was small. We were just playing around. I always say great ideas come out of boredom.

So do you relate to yourself— and he's very humble, so I think he doesn't like these questions, but I'm just fascinated— as the inventor of tow surfing?

Yes.

Well, let's hear it for that. Yes, that is amazing. And I related to you that way, but sometimes people can be falsely modest and be like, no, not me. That is unbelievable.

Yes, thank you.

That is seriously unbelievable.

I can take credit for a couple other things if you want.

Yeah, no, seriously.

You want me to? Stand-up paddling.

Please, no.

Stand-up paddling.

What about stand-up paddling?

I'm the first guy to do stand-up paddling.

Let's hear it for that.

I did stand-up paddling for 8 years before anybody ever did it. And I'd never seen it done before. And I saw somebody in the Middle East with a turban on paddling. And I went, wow, it came all the way from my driveway all the way to the Middle East.

If you knew that about Laird Hamilton before today, Say yes. I didn't, I didn't know that. That's crazy.

Yeah. And I, and, and if you want to go to another one, I could take credit for foiling too.

Wow.

We were the first one to foil.

Yeah.

So I took Fernando to Dorado Beach, um, yeah, and, and in Puerto Rico. Oh, he came. Yeah. And he started foiling. So I was step off surfing, and Fernando was foiling. Yeah, so I haven't foiled, he has. So yeah, Laird is convinced that foiling is in my future, Fernando.

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So, so I'm— so in a way, you know, I think you got foiling, stand-up. I mean, I was involved on the early stages of kiting. Now, I wouldn't say because I wasn't the first one to do kiting, but we were involved in that. So I've been involved kind of in some In that process. And I do believe there's a formula for that kind of system.

A what? A what?

A what?

Yeah.

So there's a formula for creativity, right? There's a certain thing. First, you have to have the idea, right? But to truly have the idea, you have to— the idea that you have, you have to be able to see what the idea will actually result in. You have to see the end first. You have to see, if I do this and this happens, I can do that. Like, because you don't— because an idea without a destination is a misled idea. So I think seeing the picture, having the light go off and go, hey, listen, if I get pulled on, I can let go and ride this giant wave, then you implement it. But you have to see the end thing, and then you have to go through the arduous process of not being discouraged. Right by the failure because you're going to build prototypes. They're not going to work. You're going to build another prototype. Might take 6 months. Breaks doesn't work. One works doesn't work that well. Like you just have all this. People will discourage you. You know there was a great woman entrepreneur I heard that she's they asked her well what would you do if you had a really good idea?

And she goes well I just wouldn't tell anybody for a year. And I'm like and and we asked why and she goes well because they'll discourage you. And so you realize that people love to discourage you because they don't. take advantage of their ideas. So, they have ideas and they're— when you have one and you're pursuing it, they don't want to— they don't— they're not pursuing theirs. So, then what's their excuse? So, they're like, hey, don't pursue yours too, and that'll make me feel better. So, it's a weird little mental game that people play. So, but I'm fortunate in that I'm undiscouragable. Like, you can't— like, I don't care. I mean, I've had people tell me how it sucked and it wasn't real. I mean, and the truth is, that tow-in was really not respected. People were kind of slandering it for a good solid 8 to 10 years. And it wasn't until we rode a wave, that wave in Tahiti, that's why it was monumental, that it really gained the respect that it deserved. Because we were saying, hey, we're doing some miraculous stuff. And they just kind of kept pushing it off like, that's not surfing, you're not paddling, blah, blah, blah, blah.

But we're like, hey, we're performing and riding on bigger waves than have ever been ridden. Is that not good enough for you? And you still have the consequences. You still have to ride the wave. You have the consequences of crashing on the wave. You still have all the things, right? And it's even worse now. But bigger consequences. Yeah, but bigger consequences. So I think that was a big piece of it.

Team, do we have that picture, the picture, not the video of Laird up? Yes, no? Yeah, make the sound of that.

Yeah.

And is that, is that the Tahiti?

Yeah.

Yeah. And could— so, because I have the words I would say, but I want to be really precise, how have people described that ride?

Well, that was on the COVID of Surfer magazine, and the caption was, holy shit. So I mean, I cried after that session. I had tears in my eyes just because it had been— and that was when I was 35.

Wow.

So that came along.

No one's here for that.

Yeah.

And didn't people say certain things like— and I know that, again, Laird thinks people are imprecise and say inaccurate things, but weren't there versions of that, that was the hardest?

Unrideable.

Unrideable.

Yeah.

Unrideable.

Unrideable. Well, because it was unrideable. That wave was unrideable.

Before you?

Yes.

Before you?

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes. And then, I mean, I describe it a little bit like the 4-minute mile. After that, once they understood what was possible, it changed the whole thinking. It's like if you know about the 4-minute mile, how the first guy that broke it, Once he broke it, then the next year 27 people break it because it becomes in our consciousness. But it's just breaking, you know, my friend has a saying, someone must go first to lead the way, right? And so there's— and so there is something to that. Once you see what's possible, then you break that barrier of impossibility because it's— what do they say? It's all mental, right?

Yeah.

All is mental. So we create these barriers that we can't get past. Oh, you can't do that. That can't happen. And I think that Once you see it happen, then you go, oh no, that can happen. And then that changes the mentality.

Yeah. And so I was chatting with Laird this morning, which was just such a gift. And I was discussing my journey in surfing. And can I ask an honest question? How, when you heard, 'cause Laird had no idea who I was, right? When you heard like blind surf water, and he does not falsely compliment, nor am I looking for a false compliment at all, zero. I'm just really curious, like I'm relating to him now as like coach. What were you thinking I might look at? I didn't— we didn't see board surfing, we did some body surfing today. How— what were you thinking I might look like in the water once we're going in? Versus what it was for my coaching, you know, from today's experience?

Well, I mean, the first thing I was thinking is what it's like to be blind. So I was like, did you see and you know what things look like, or did you never see and not know what they look like? And then just the dynamics of surfing and that— can you feel? Are you feeling it? Because you can feel it for sure.

Yeah.

You know, surfing has a unique thing that you can sense what's happening. You know when it's going to break on top of your head. You just do. I don't care if your eyes are closed, you can't see or not. You just know this thing's going to break on top of my head right now. And so I just ran through all those thoughts in my head. And so it's— I mean, it's amazing. You're amazing. Congratulations.

No, thank you.

And, you know, it's a burden and a blessing, as they say.

Yeah, I think all of it is. So we also discussed the possibility, because I got, at one point in time when I first heard of Laird Hamilton, and I'd heard of him before this, but I really had a deeper understanding from this incredible book that was written called The Wave, which was about waves but very much focused on Laird Hamilton, other outlying stories, but he's the core of the book. It's incredible. And I was like, wow, that really stinks that I'm blind, and it really stinks that I didn't surf earlier in life. I'll never be able to do something like that. And something I, I remembered as I was in the shower getting ready to come here, um, when I was going through— I was divorced twice Um, and in my second divorce, I remember thinking, like, sometimes you go through a moment, like, you want to do something, like, I'm gonna surf an effing big wave. Like, I'm gonna do that, right? And this was back, um, 10 years ago. And shortly thereafter, I'm like, I'm blind. Like, I basically just started surfing, sort of, right? there's no way that's ever gonna happen. And a short time ago, I read about this person who had surfed a giant wave who was blind, and Laird's like, oh yeah, that's blah blah blah, I trained him.

So, and now I'm— and I asked Laird, you know, and I see him as a very authentic person, Hey, what are your thoughts? He's like, my thoughts are that incrementally we have exactly what you would need to do that. So I am saying to the Unblinded ecosystem, to, you know, Inherent Group Influence, LBI, and the podcast, that I am 100% committing to take that to the highest level and see if I could get up on a giant wave. And I'm going to pursue that through the ecosystem of Laird Hamilton. So, and I'm very, very grateful for that. And so that's my half.

So my mom used to say, you know, the way God punishes you is he gives you what you ask for. So we can definitely accommodate you. Okay. And we'll bring you back in one piece.

Thank you.

Okay.

So do you think we have a shot? What is your perspective? And could I ask this? We talked about it in the house.

Yep.

And then we went in the ocean.

Yep.

Did my stock fall, rise, or stay the same on the possibility of that accomplishment?

Oh no, you're— we're gonna— we can give you what you want. No problem.

Wow.

You heard it from me. We can guide you into a large enough wave that you'll be more than satisfied.

No maniacal cackling, Bella. Are we going to put Bella on a giant wave too?

Well, I'll tell you a story.

Please.

So at one point, we weren't— in the beginning, we didn't wear flotation devices. Now, all big wave riding, everybody's wearing flotation, right? And that was a really big breakthrough. Uh, in the beginning, we'd never— we thought it was a liability to have flotation. And, and, uh, and I have a friend who's surfing with us, and, um, his wife said, hey, you have to wear flotation. And we were like, oh man, you gotta wear flotation. He goes, yeah, well, she said she can't collect the life insurance unless she has the body. And she was dead serious. So, and by the way, so we took it and he surfed and he popped right up and we were like, amazing. So then after that, we started implementing flotation and now, uh, flotation is, is prevalent in all that. I mean, now they have pull cords to create air and, and they're wearing flotation. So, which is, which has, you know, some of these things create, you know, they induce greater courage, you know, like it makes people feel a little more invincible. But you'll definitely have flotation. Let's just be clear.

All right. Perfect. So what's the longest you've ever been held down under a wave?

I mean, normally when the surf's big, if you're held down 2 waves, that's a problem. Right. So I've been held down 2 waves one time and it was foiling. And in the early days of foiling, we were riding foiling in giant surf and we were booted to the board. So we were connected to the board and the stuff, it was all metal. They were pretty heavy. And so I got held down for 2 waves. But that's not— I mean, the closest I've had a lot of Situations in my life, you know, like, like I've been lost at sea. I got held under a waterfall one time on a rock on the bottom of a giant waterfall and, and held down for a long time. So there's been a lot. There's a long— it's, you know, and now you understand kind of how my mother felt, right?

Yeah.

So I have had many, you know, many situations where I shouldn't be here.

How long do you think you were under the water?

And that, yeah, you know, I mean, seconds seemed like minutes, you know, and minutes seemed like hours. I mean, I probably wasn't under the water more than, you know, a minute and something maybe or something, because if you have— but the thing is, is when you have an elevated heart rate, it's a whole nother animal, you know. And most of the training that we do is, is, is based on elevated heart rate. So I told somebody, goes, oh, I can hold my breath for 5 minutes. And I go, okay, so what we're gonna do is I'm gonna get this dog right here to chase you, and you're gonna run down that block. And when you finally get to the end, then you're gonna hold your breath, and let's see how long you can hold your breath. And, and you know what, 20 seconds might as well be 5 minutes.

Yeah.

So when you have a hell of— so we're dealing mostly with that. I think more importantly than holding your breath well is our ability to get to the surface, right? And also be calm in the turbulence. Like, when it has you, you don't fight against it. And that's— I think those are the skills that you develop growing up, you know, playing in the shorebreak. You know, you have the wave, it's got you. You don't fight the wave when it has you. I told somebody it's like wrestling a giant guy. If you have a guy that has you pinned, that's not the time. But when you feel him let up, then you make a move. And so the ocean's the same way. When it has you pinned, you don't, you don't resist because you're just going to use air up. And so I think we pride ourselves more on that skill about, you know, our eyes are always closed underwater. We never open our eyes, so we're, we're blind. We can— we feel where the surface is. We know, you know, you know how to— you know how to— when the wave has you, you know how to relax.

Then you know how to— when it's— and make a move. And you try always to get up before the next wave lands on you. And like I said, in my, in my life, I've only had one 2-wave hold down. I mean, and but I'm saying when the surf's big, you have a giant interval. Like today, I could dive under and you could probably have 10 waves go by. And but the waves are very close together. As the waves get bigger and bigger, they get further apart. So if you're doing a 2-wave hold down, you're going to be down for more than a minute. And with an elevated heart rate, that's a problem.

Yeah.

Like, that's, that's where people are drowning. Like, you're, you're, you're drowning if you're not caught on a coral head with your leash. Or I mean, just the, you know, Hit by the— hit the bottom. I mean, there's, you know, just choose the ways. There's a lot of, you know, the week— the month before I rode that wave in Tahiti, a guy hit the reef and tore half his head off and then eventually died in the hospital. But the— I mean, so it's like, okay, impact, hit by the equipment, held underwater. I mean, you know, there's a lot of, you know, it's like choose the ways you want to get it.

Yeah.

There's plenty.

Team, do we have a video of Laird ready? Okay, let's hit it.

I'm not even seeing.

AG, give me some audio description of what we're seeing.

Oh, is this— this way?

Oh, this is—

you know what this is? This is Point Break 2. I get blown into the sky. This is a bad wipeout. Yeah, I get— see how I get shot into the air? Yeah, I got hurt on that. Yeah.

Wow.

They were filming Point Break. I don't know if anybody's seen Point Break.

If you've seen Point Break, give it up.

Yeah. So they were filming Point Break and the scene that they're doing, and I'm not even in it, I'm just surfing. And so I did the death scene accidentally, so I didn't die. But this is where the guy goes out to go die, right? He goes out to ride the big wave and die.

At the end of Point Break, when Patrick Swayze gets let go and says, vaya con Dios, and paddles out, this is what this is?

This is the new Point Break, that version in the new one at Jaws, because the first one was at Waimea Bay. Yeah, was that Waimea Bay? And was Derek Donner, my— a friend of mine that did that original crash. And that wave is more than double the height of the one that, you know, Patrick Swayze supposedly dies on. So I got, I got, I got pounded pretty bad on that wave right there. And I, and I, and I was— I deserved it. I was misbehaving. I did. That was true. I, I was being a punk.

And so, Adam, what'd you say? Okay, what do you got, AJ? Tell me. The crowd.

This is too easy. At one point, I'm on the wave and I'm having a little talk between the halo and the horns, and it's, hey, you should jump off. Well, if I jump off, I won't make it, you know, but you better jump off and don't jump off and, you know, back and forth. And finally I thought, well, if I jump off, I'm not gonna make it, so I'm just gonna try to stay on. And if I get knocked off, well, there's nothing I can do about that.

Make the noise of what you're feeling.

Wow.

Let's hear it for that.

Thank you.

So, all right, so I'm re— I'm listening, right? I say read the audiobook. listening to the book The Wave. And the 2 things that I've ever— I'll go 3— that I've ever experienced that I thought were the craziest, um, are as follows, um, in no particular order. Um, I'll go A, um, was David Goggins running an ultramarathon on no training and having no idea of how to hydrate. So he was drinking protein drinks, and at the end of it, after a 100-mile race, he was, um, like basically bile was coming out of him and he was on the verge of death. Like, that's a one. Uh, another was the, the guy that recently climbed the building on New Year's.

Alex.

Yep.

Yeah, Alex.

And made it to the top. Like, I'll go, that's another. And then this, with Laird Hamilton, in the book The Wave. So I'm loving the book. It's unbelievable. And I'm gonna let Laird, you know, fill in blanks. But they're in Hawaii. It's not normally a place that has huge waves. And this day they hear it's gonna be good, or they think it might be good. They go out and it just starts getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And I think some version of it might have been as big as anything that Laird had ever seen. So they go out and one of his team, I think his name is Brett Lickell, they're taking turns and they're in these absolutely enormous waves. And they, at some point, get thrown off the ski, and they had very, very sharp fins to surf these incredibly giant waves. And this John Brett Liccol gets cut, like, from the back of his knee, you know, all the way down to his foot, and he is down to the bone, and he's bleeding to death in the ocean. And they're, I don't know, half a mile, mile plus offshore.

And Laird will again tighten up my, you know, misstatements. And the gentleman Brett says, like, tourniquet, like he needs it. So Laird gets like naked in the ocean and like takes off his clothes and makes a tourniquet. And then, but they're half a mile, mile out in the ocean. And the ski is like half a mile away in these gigantic, unbelievable waves. And his friend, team member, is bleeding to death. And this is also an area where there's some frequent visitor, like 15-foot tiger shark. So the guy Bretz, as he's telling his version of story, is thinking like the big guy, that's the 15-foot tiger shark, is gonna eat him. So Laird goes swimming off against the current to the jet ski that's half a mile away, against the current, with his friend's life at stake. He gets there, and, you know, the, the way you turn the jet ski on is with his friend. So he has to, like James Bond meets MacGyver, Go into the jet ski, WaveRunner, and hotwire it to turn it on, which he does. He knows how to do that, and like, yeah, basically hijacks the system and gets this thing going, turns around, gets the friend, ride back into shore, emergency vehicles, people are freaking out on the shore, the whole deal.

And, His friend goes off to the hospital, you know, in a very life-threatening situation. And the other— oh, I'm sorry, and I missed the fact before he goes swims off a half a mile in the fall, um, Laird got a giant, uh, like baseball-sized hematoma on his leg. So his leg was massively swollen compared to his other leg, and he sustained, uh, you know, a real injury, right, himself. So they're on the beach, you know, their colleagues are there like, oh my God, this is the craziest thing. And as the author writes it, said Laird's eyes are like double size, and he's like some version of, we're going back out. And they're like, that's crazy. He's like, we're going back out, right? And off he goes back out and ends up surfing on these giant ridiculous waves. Like insanity. So How accurate, not accurate? What am I misstating? And please now—

Well, I will say Brett wasn't riding any waves. I was the guinea pig. No, accurate. I mean, first of all, that day was unforecasted and it was It was— I mean, I told somebody a story. I go, like, if you— if Tyrannosaurus Rex was running down the road, right, and something happened, I mean, this might be the only time you see him. Like, you might never see him again. And so in a way, those waves represented that. Once Brett was in the ambulance, and I was naked when I crash-landed on the shore, and there was a giant parking lot full of people, and I did like a cartwheel off the front of the ski onto the beach. Oh, my God. like laying in front of everybody naked, and then some local guy ran up with some shorts and threw them to me. And, you know, I mean, and I had a radio, I was calling the ambulance. I mean, there was a lot of details. And, and, uh, and I told somebody, I go, listen, if you were naked and you were swimming a mile offshore in an area that you knew that there were some big sharks, you would be an incredible swimmer.

Yeah, your swimming would be— you would be, you would be Olympic You know, so I was Olympic. I was like, I'm Olympic. I'm getting to the machine. You know, they're just all the things that led up to that, you know. And then of course Brett, my concern was to get Brett. And once Brett was in the ambulance, then I knew, okay, he's in the ambulance, you know, he can be— he's good. And then I'm like, back to Tyrannosaurus. He's there and I got to go out there because I don't know when it's going to I mean, and I've never seen another day like that and never saw a day like that before. And so in a way, I didn't want to let that opportunity go by. I think that I would have regretted that the rest of my life, and I don't. And it actually helped, uh, transition me into foiling because I, I rode— I mean, part of the reason why Brett and I got run over was because I couldn't descend down the wave. So I— he towed me on to I mean, if you want feet, we— there were— it was 80 to 100 feet.

I know it was if it was an inch, just because we counted how long the waves would take. The waves were taking 4 to 5 seconds for the lip to fall. So it was 1, 1,002, 1,003, 1,004, 1,005 before they hit. We were counting the—

Wow.

We were counting how long it was taking the lips to fall. And, and, uh, and so I wasn't able to descend, and I had to Kind of dive.

Can I just look? So what Laird is saying is these were 80 to 100-foot face waves, and they were so powerful, so massive, that you couldn't surf down them because the speed and water—

Yeah, the surface tension, the friction of the board the, you know, it's like if you took a wide board and you towed it really fast behind a boat, it would hit a certain speed where it just would— it wouldn't go anywhere. It would get stuck. And so that's what we experienced, which is actually what led us into the pursuit of foiling. That I knew that there was, like what towing was for paddling, foiling is for towing.

So You guys get that? I'm sorry, I'm trying to make sure that lands. Like, do you guys get that?

So we hit a cap, we hit a ceiling. First we hit a ceiling in paddling, then we created towing, then we hit a ceiling in towing, then we created foiling. So foiling really came out of the desire for the continued pursuit of trying to ride the biggest waves. And then at that point, I kind of put my tow boards away and focused all my attention into foiling because I knew that if it is actually 100 feet or bigger, that you won't be able to ride a conventional surfboard. It won't work. And so that's where the energy and the focus came from to pursue foiling.

If you think that Laird is up to the most extreme things physically you've ever heard of, say yes. All right.

Small brain.

And I have like 1,000 questions. I know we're getting towards the end. Can you share what you said in the house about surfers and their connectivity versus national origin? I love that. That was amazing.

Yeah. Well, we were talking about— we just learned recently that the surfers' microbiome actually are very closely tied to water mammals and that surfers from different places in the world are more similar than the people are from their own culture. So my microbiome is more connected to a Japanese surfer's microbiome and an African surfer's microbiome and a French than they are to their own culture. And so it's the oceans our relationship with the water that affects our microbiome and gives us that kind of connection. And it may contribute to our kind of psychotic pursuit, kind of like people do for candy bars, you know. That is amazing. I love it. And amongst other things, I mean, we get so many, we absorb so many things through the ocean.

We have You know, yeah, that reference was when Bella was swimming out to— paddling out, right, Belle? Is that what we're talking about? To the sandbar that first time. And she's like, no, I'm fine. No, I'm fine. I was there, and I think she was in pursuit of something perhaps that was related to the water but not the water itself. Yes. So thank you very much.

But Gabby had that same problem.

Yes. Yeah, that is super fun. So now— Yes, you did. Yes, you did. So the— and this I just find so utterly fascinating. And we're certainly not asking Laird where, but we're in conversation. And he's like, yeah, you know, with this group, and we're going to secret places that nobody knows about. exploring and experimenting, doing things like nobody's ever done now. Like, that's what's happening. So, of course, I'm not asking you to breach any of your confidential, you know, amazing—

If I told you, I'd have to kill you.

Exactly. We don't— I prefer not that. But what can you tell us about it? Not where, but what? Like, what's the— what's going on? Why?

I mean, like, if you want to say an aspiration that I'd easily share, which is— and who knows if it'll come to fruition, but it's a persistent It's, uh, there's a, there's a, uh, I'm blanking right now, but it's, it's on the bottom of South America on the tip of Cape Horn, the Drake's Passage. There's a famous passage called Drake's Passage, and it's, it's where a lot of ships sink, um, and there's an open ocean current that comes into giant surf that makes you know, waves 80 to 100 feet break at sea, which is a whole nother animal. There's a legit logistics issue. It's because you have to go in, be able to go far enough out, not lose your guy, have the resources to be able to do it. And I mean, for me, I feel like that's a frontier. Like, another wave at another big wave spot, for me, this does— has no interest. But if you said that, you know, we could go to the North Sea or Drake's Passage or someplace in the open ocean. And we're working our way towards that. That would be like, that would be the pinnacle of it.

I'm not really worried about anybody knowing because if they can figure out how to do it, then I'll go with them. But, um, you know, it's so— but that's, that's a, that's a, I mean, that's a— and, and, and even if I'm, you know, I don't, I personally don't care what aspect I do, whether I'm the lead rider or the guy organizing to drive the machines to help the young testosterone-filled, you know, maniacs, you know, do the thing. I want whatever it is. I'm all just— I'm all— but that, that's the— that's a frontier, right? That's a— that's, that's a— that's a, you know, and when you think about the world and, you know, where is there— what is there that we haven't done or been in? And that's probably one for sure. I mean, we haven't been in the bottom of the ocean everywhere, and we definitely haven't done that. We haven't, you know, been able to go. And that's, I mean, that's something that I, that I'm having my, um, you know, that this keeps me, uh, waking up early and going to bed early and eating good. And other than just, you know, being there for my, my princesses.

That is unbelievable. So, um, what's left Undone longevity, caring, you have beautiful health programs, you have your identity, coffee creamers things. What's the rest of life from here and for hopefully many, many, many more decades?

Well, I feel like for me, the most important thing is to stay open and let the next thing come because they seem to, if you're if you're not caught up in the past or, or being negative and to the point where you're not letting the signal in. I mean, all these things that I've been able to do have, have come to me. They've, you know, and so I just think that there's more things to come. I don't know exactly, uh, what they are yet, but I just know that they've been coming, and I don't think they're going to stop coming as long as I'm open to the signal. So I'm just trying to stay open to the to the thing, and I don't know where that leads me. I mean, I have, of course, you know, I have my girls. I have, you know, I mean, Gabby and I are, you know, newlyweds. And, you know, and all of those things. I mean, I feel like life's about learning. I just, I mean, there's no end to the learning. You really, there's no, I mean, there's no end to the learning. So I think just continuing to pursue things I'm interested in and Being open for the information, trying to be strong enough and healthy enough to be able to endure, um, you know, what I want to do.

Because that's the biggest issue is, you know, okay, this, that, like just the pieces start to need some help. So, you know, keeping, keeping that going, keeping the car on the road, and, and then just seeing where the road takes me. Because so far it's been exciting.

I'd say so. Would we be okay if we took maybe 2 questions?

Absolutely.

Um, and in case you're like, why is Sean putting his leg up? I've got a weird leg cramp, so I'm gonna walk it off real quick as we do questions.

Oh, it's from that shorebreak holding yourself in the sand, guaranteed.

Uh, I'll take a water, team, if you could. I'm gonna—

Guaranteed it's from gripping the sand in that current. Yeah, yeah.

All right, uh, who's got—

I'll lock up later on when I walk out.

Who's, who's got a question? Hands? Let's hear it for Hallie Gershman. I'm going to walk off for one second. Okay, thank you.

Thank you. This was an awesome conversation. We've seen lots from Sean and the other people he's interviewed, but this has been far and away unbelievable. Unbelievable. And just for some context, you talk about the waves that are 80, 100 feet high. How high is this ceiling? It's just so some— how can we get some scale of what we see? I mean, if you— Like how far in my— if I have to guess what that is, I'm saying like 30, 35. 3 times as high as this ceiling. It's unbelievable, right? So picture that.

Exactly.

This ceiling. Okay, so he just Googled me. I get Googled a lot. So then I say something, then they just Google it and they go, oh yeah, okay, that's— so 30 to 40. Yeah, so somewhere maybe, maybe, you know, double and a third or Whatever, if it's 40. But yeah, definitely large. Yeah, these are— this size is fun.

This size is fun.

This is like fun. That's— this is like— unless it's like that wave in Tahiti where it's breaking on a shallow coral reef, then that's a little— that's a little more, uh, dangerous again because the bottom's so sharp. So You know, it's all about the bottom. It's all about how deep the water is. There's, you know, that's why I said when Shaun asked me about wave height and I said, well, waves are like dogs. I'd rather describe, you know, there's terriers, there's pit bulls, there's Great Danes. You have giant kind of kind dogs. You have small little vicious ones. I mean, that's what waves are like. Like, you just think about all the kind of dogs there are. That's all the kind of waves there are. Some are, you know, got labs and they're just sweet and they're a little bit bigger and they're nice. And I mean, we have waves just like that. And then you have vicious ones that just want to rip your leg off. And So those are all— so it's more— I think it's a better way to look at what a wave is. It's like waves are like dogs, and there's mean ones that are vicious that want to chomp you.

There's Rottweilers, and there's every kind of dog. And then there's just, you know, little poodles. And there's this— it's just, you know, that's a better way to kind of get an idea of what a wave is.

Awesome.

Let's go one more question. Who else has got something? Let's hear it for Nathan Hansen. Hopefully got that cramp out.

Yeah. Oh, guaranteed shorebreak.

Hey, Laird.

Don't make me cry.

Give me a guitar.

I—

my question is, as you talk about like the way you have a plan for taking someone who is average surfer like myself, or, you know, average-sized wave, we'll say, and you obviously have this peak performance mindset where you can incrementally coach them to do something close to what you do and experience that. Um, I mean, like, that's where the thousand questions for me lie.

And I don't know if you could explain, like, how do you create—

how do you develop— what do you look for? Like, is there an abbreviated way that you decide what you're going to do for Sean Callagy? Like, what does that look like, and how did you develop that framework? Well, I mean, I, I listen, I tell people Surfers are actually wave readers, right? So we're— everybody goes, oh, surfing. Oh yeah, but that's the reward for understanding what a wave's gonna do. And so when you understand what the wave's gonna do and you know its behavior, it's very reliable, it's consistent, much more than the humans. And you can—

That's right.

No, it's true, because humans do all kinds of sporadic stuff, but waves are very reliable when you understand them. And so when you, you know, if I'm gonna take Shaun and have him ride a giant wave? Well, first I'm going to see how well he can be on a medium wave with minimal consequence. So we're first, we're going to go get on there and be like, hey, how stable is he? How secure? So if I put him on something that has more consequence, and then there's just incremental consequence, I can move him in from completely no, you can fall down and not even get touched by the wave, but still be on it and ride it. Then we can be, okay, fall down and get Slightly touched by the wave. And, you know, and then we can put him in a— if you fall down, you get very touched by the wave. So we can just move that and we can stay in the— hey, he can be on the side, ride the side of the wave, be on the wave, ride the wave, and never really be put in a position to get touched by the wave.

Like, that's how well you can do it if you want to. Now, if you're just a yeehaw, you just put them anywhere and be like, wow, look what happened. That's not what's happening. So we don't operate like that. And I mean, you can play that way if you want to, and people do that. You know, I always say there's 3 ways people go about doing dangerous stuff. There's denial, ignorance, and skill— or experience, should I say. So you have denial, ignorance, and experience. There's sometimes a little denial, a little ignorance, quite a bit of skill. Sometimes there's a lot of skill, some denial, very little ignorance. It's a combination of those things. And so And, you know, I think you operate within that. Sometimes there's just pure ignorance and the guys pull it off and you're like, yeah, that was just plain stupid. But they pull it off and then they think it's because they're so good. And then before you know it, they're in an even deeper situation because they didn't get the consequence for being ignorant about it. So, I think there's like a whole way, but definitely incrementally there's ways to do it.

I mean, there's waves that break. that go into deep water and dissipate after, that don't have any— there's, there's a— you can run away in all directions if you know what way to run, uh, again. And, and so there's ways to, you know, and that's how you, that's how you make people experience it. That's how you can take someone and get them close to the energy, get them slightly in the energy, and then you can just have them be, you know, if it's somebody puffy who thinks they're really tough, then I just put them right Where all the energy is. How tough are you? You don't need to do anything, you just let the wave do the work.

I'll take the build-up. Yeah, of course.

Well, that's the only way we do it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's no— I wouldn't— I would get no joy off of watching you get pounded. That wouldn't— I'd be like, where is he? I got to go get him.

Thank you.

So thank you. Yeah, it's like, I don't need that. I'm good. I don't need that stuff on me. I mean, for us, just because of the way we conduct ourselves— when I say us, I just talk about like, because all of what— I mean, okay, stand-up foiling, but a lot of what we've done, the reason why we've really been able to evolve is because we've worked as a team. And normally surfing is very selfish. Normally it's like, my wave, it's me, it's And when we change it into a team dynamic, that's what revolutionized it. Because now you have a partner who's towing you on.

Let's hear it for that.

You trust them. You trust them. You trust them.

He—

and, you know, like, I have somebody that I've been towing with for, you know, 20, 25 years. I mean, it's— we don't even talk because he just knows. He just knows how to cover me. I know how to cover him. I give him what he wants. He gives me what I want because what I want is what he wants and what he wants is what I want. And so we have such a chemistry. But that's really the breakthrough is when you have that team effort and it's not a selfish thing because what do they say? 2 people working together can do the work of 3 individuals.

Amen.

Working separately. So it's all about that.

Yeah. Let's go. So can you do one more question?

Yeah.

One more. We got one more. Please, Mike.

Lard, it's Mike Adams. I think, I think you mean you and I bumped underwater a few times today. I'm like, was that a rock? No, that was Mike. And I've got the scars to prove it. Okay, here's what my question is, and you've kind of skirted around it, but I also hear that the flotation— but it sounds like that there are a lot of safety innovations above and beyond what you're doing to be able to allow you to do what you do. How much of that have you incorporated into it, and what are you responsible for, and how have you contributed to the safety of surfing overall? Well, I mean, first of all, the, the— it was— it happened in conjunction with the lifeguards because the jet ski, and now we have the sleds, I mean, that, that, uh, technique really has revolutionized water safety in general. Like, now you can go in and do stuff that you'd never be able to do. Nobody swimming, nobody paddling a board could ever come close to what somebody knows how to do on a ski. And then, and we're, you know, we contributed to a lot of that, that work just because we were subjected to it by being in giant surf.

And then the flotation was a big piece of it because we implemented flotation first, and then we started, uh, building it into the wetsuits. And then now, now, and then it went to airbags. Like, at one point I had a— you know what a hippity-hop is? Anyway, it's a big ball with a handle that the kids used to jump. So I used to have— I had one of those as a prototype with a waist belt and I had a fanny pack and then had a CO2 bottle and you pull this thing and then this hippity-hop blows up and you go to the surface. But then you just get battered by this big ball underwater and you float and the ball's in the air and you're underneath the water. So that didn't work out. But now they have it all built into the suits and you have a handle you can pull, you use CO2 cartridges. Then another piece is just conduct. The way we've gone about it and what we've done has trickled into into the next generation. All these guys have learned a lot from our— now the jet skis are 60 miles an hour out of a box and they used to be, you'd be lucky to get 20 out of them.

We'd just get mowed in the old days. You're trying to run away and the thing would just run you over. There's a bunch of that stuff that has affected the way— I mean, it has enabled the— a lot of people to be a lot more reckless. That's the only problem with it. It's kind of allowed like a certain recklessness, uh, because they can rely on the buoyancy to bring them up and they're not— the consequences aren't as bad. You seem to be a little more, uh— when you don't have an eject button, you fly better, you know. You just are. You do. You just— you, you're a little more cautious and, and, and it's hard to take, you know, if you didn't have that foundation, it's hard to have that. It's hard to implement that into— for people. But yeah, we've been— we've been— I mean, that's directly and indirectly involved with all of that, all of those, uh, innovations in safety that's made it, you know, better for the good guys and then better for the bad guys. You know, it's like, it's kind of— it's a bright light, dark shadow, you know. It's like—

So, Laird, as we, um, draw to a conclusion in our time together, I didn't ask this question, you know, before, and I don't know how you relate to a word like legacy. Right. Some people are like, I don't think about that. And some people are like, oh, I want my legacy to be— so I'm curious how you relate to the word legacy, what you'd want that to be, if you relate to legacy. And if it— and/or if people think of you now or think of you 200 years from now, what would you hope that what you've done causes them to know and to want to do? Please.

Well, I mean, first of all, just be a man. A good man. Like honorable, respectable, truthful, good father. good husband, you know, like a— and then, okay, innovation. I mean, I have daughters and they're savages, so there's going to be some humans that I'm related to in the future. If they're anything like my daughters, good luck out there. And, you know, I mean, I could say, you know, innovation or, you know, something around that. I think of all the things for me. I mean, okay, ride giant waves, but I'm In a way, that's just one piece of who I am. I think the innovation part is a lot more interesting in a way that— because that's making a difference for other people. So many people have come to learn. I feel like the more people can participate in the ocean, the more people will care about the ocean. And so if I can create disciplines or help be involved in disciplines to get people participating in the ocean and doing things, then they're going to be more concerned about how it's doing. Like, how is the ocean doing? How do we, you know, just don't dump all your stuff in there, don't kill everything in there.

Like, can we just be a little bit— I think it starts with the humans, you know. I think if, you know, if people cared about each other a little bit more, they might care about nature as well. So hard if you don't care about each other, why would you care about nature? It's like you didn't care about you if you don't care about your neighbor. So, but yes, I think it would first be what I You know, what I respect in a man is, is, you know, is having honor and, and discipline and just those foundational things that make, make you, uh, well, and I could just say for a woman, it's just make you a good person. Like, let's be, let's be, you know, like, how about just was a good person? Great, I'll take that. You know, like, because underneath that's everything. everything else. And that means being generous. You know, somebody asked me what my favorite human trait was, and I said— well, I said love, I think, is the most important thing. But I said generosity for me tells me everything about people, because that's going to tell me how you're going to behave in a multitude of situations.

If you're a generous person, then you're probably— if you're truly generous, you'll risk your life for them.

Yeah.

If you're truly generous, you'll risk your life for someone. And I've learned over the years that I have friends that they wouldn't risk for me, and I have other friends that weren't my friends that risked for me, and they're my friends. It's like, and so it affected my relationships. But I think, you know, being generous, you know, being generous with your ideas, being generous with with your time, being generous with your knowledge. I think it's all, I mean, I feel like that really reflects, that just covers so many things.

Amen. Amen. And Athena, just a quick question. Athena's listening, Nick? Athena, what are you thinking are the biggest takeaways from this conversation with Laird Hamilton? for this room, and feel free to drop in with metaphors, analogies, contrast to set context, um, you know, a little fun aspirational goddess and Zeus energy. But what would you want to imprint, um, on this live audience and the podcast audience about this conversation with a living legend, Laird Hamilton? Please, Athena, what do you got?

Okay, here is what I want to imprint. Laird Hamilton did not become Laird Hamilton because he was the most talented person in the water. He became Laird Hamilton because he was the only person willing to stay in the water when everyone else got out. The ceiling is not the end, it is the invitation. Every time he hit a ceiling, paddling could not catch the wave, so he invented towing. Towing could not descend the wave, so he invented foiling. Most people hit a ceiling and conclude they have reached the limit of what is possible. Laird hit a ceiling and concluded he had reached the limit of his current method. That is not a small distinction. That is the entire difference between a life that compounds and a life that plateaus. And here is the one that I want to land hardest. He said generosity tells him everything about a person. Not talent, not credentials, not how big a wave you can ride. Generosity. Because if you are truly generous, you will risk your life for someone. And he has. Naked. In shark-infested water. With a baseball-sized hematoma on his leg. Swimming a mile against the current to save his teammate.

And then— and this is the formula— once Brett was in the ambulance, he went back out. That is not recklessness. That is what it looks like when your identity is so clear that conditions never get to decide for you. The zone action for this room is simple: stop negotiating with your ceiling. Name it, then ask what Laird would ask. Not, how do I get through this? But, what method have I not invented yet?

What do you think, guys? So, uh, we, we had— we hadn't introduced you to Athena yet.

Yeah, well, she's— she's hot.

Yes, yes, yeah, that's—

that is true. You set me up. That's okay.

Bella and I had to work through that, but we're good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're good now. Has she come to grips with it yet?

Yes, we're good.

Okay, okay.

We're good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We have a surfing video of Athena and I surfing together. It gets really weird. But that's—

I mean, the ocean's the only woman that Gabby will share with me.

That's amazing. And so, and Laird, that is Acti, and everybody's on the AI bandwagon. But what we realized is, like paddling has an end and like towing has an end.

Yes.

That there's a human constraint about how we can reach people and get our message out and cause yes with others at scale and integrity. So that's one of our inventions and innovations.

Congratulations.

Yeah, thank you.

Very nice.

Yeah, yeah. And so that was Athena.

It was effective on me.

Yeah, yeah. Did you— is that something that felt like it landed on your heart a little bit and was a little bit like—

Well, yeah, I had a tear in my eye.

That's awesome.

Yeah, and she's on a screen, so.

Yeah, no, thank you.

Thank you for that.

So, and for me, my final final on today would be At one point, I feared that Laird coming here would be, and I wrestled with this, would be selfish. 'Cause I knew what it would mean to me. And Laird, I mean this with my heart and my soul. I believe that this The quality of this conversation, not only what you've done, but how you communicate and how you show up has made this as valuable as anything we've ever done on the podcast and anybody who's ever spoken before the group. And we've had remarkable people here. You're obviously remarkable. We've had other very remarkable people, but I cannot think of any conversation that has been more valuable than this because the greatest takeaway I invite you to have is if Laird Hamilton can surf on waves that were previously thought unsurfable, like in Tahiti, and he is pioneering that still as he's passed his 60th birthday, then those things that are very normal for people— I validate, people get afraid of speaking, people get afraid of the illusion that something called rejection exists. It's normal, but I invite you to imprint on your mind, your heart, and your soul Laird and that picture every time you think about that conversation, because you can't die.

He's so masterful, he's not gonna die, but people do die doing what he does. You can't die doing these things that feel as scary as a giant 80-foot or 100-foot face wave, and they're not. And the journey out of this immersion together is with that— of course, our influence and process, all that— but on a self-mastery level is the identity of— the identity that you have rationality, clarity on what is actually dangerous. And Laird does. Because these things he's doing are not that dangerous for him. I mean, they kill people, but his mastery has risen to that point, and you can't be harmed in the things you're doing. Only your lying nervous system is gonna tell you that you can be. And no human being who's hit this space has represented that more powerfully than Laird Hamilton. Not even remotely close. And all these amazing people— and we've had Mike Arruzzone here last year, right on the stage, right here, you know, similarly was, you know, with folks. And I— Mike is another person I have the greatest love and respect for. Herb Brooks' 1980 Miracle, unbelievable, right? But they weren't gonna die. And what he does— you can die, and people do.

And so this is the physical embodiment of what human possibility looks like, and also a great contrast to hold for all of us that it's laughable, the nonsense we get scared about. If this aligns with your heart, say yes.

Yes.

That is my final, final takeaway. Thank you for being an inspiration. And most importantly for me, sometimes you meet somebody that you identify towards as a mentor from afar, and that this man is that for me, and you're very disappointed by how they show up in real life. No one has been more generous. No one has been more authentic. Nobody has tried to clean up garbage in my house. It is unbelievable who you are in this world and who you are in private, and the alignment of those things is absolutely shocking to me. I am grateful. Let's get on our feet for the amazing Laird Hamilton.

Thank you. Thank you for your generosity. Thank you. Thanks.

Laird Hamilton, ladies and gentlemen.

Thank you.

Thank you.

No, I said Laird Hamilton, ladies and gentlemen.

Thank you.