Transcript of Dominique Wilkins: The Mindset That Made the Human Highlight Film

Born in France, raised in Baltimore, left home at 16 with a Greyhound ticket and no plan, got discovered on a playground the next day, went on to become the human highlight film, one of the most feared scorers in NBA history, a Hall of Famer who put 47 points on Larry Bird in Game 6. The world saw the dunks.

It's so crazy to me that you are not a First-ballot Hall of Famer. I'm not asking you to comment on that. It's crazy.

Well, I'm gonna comment on it for you.

Okay, crazy.

I think it was ludicrous.

Like, this is the golden era of the NBA, period.

You won't get no arguments out of me. My first 8 games, I played against probably 9 Hall of Famers at my position. I remember saying to myself, man, if it's gonna be like this every night, I don't know if I'm gonna make it. No, but I had to quickly say, but I'm gonna let them know they playing against a god too.

How come you weren't bitter, you weren't angry?

Don't make excuses. Don't blame people because at the end of the day, it's up to you what you do.

This is the story behind the legend, Dominique Wilkins.

So we have an extraordinary, masterful guest today, Mr. Dominique Wilkins, NBA Hall Hall of Famer, a master vice president of basketball operations, currently Atlanta Hawks analyst, Mr. Wilkins. Welcome to Sean.

Nice to see you.

Yeah.

Nice to see you.

Sean Kellogg on the podcast.

Nice to meet you.

So we chatted for a moment ago and you started out as playing baseball.

Yeah. You know, growing up in Baltimore, Maryland where I grew up at, you know, had a lot of asphalt, not a lot of grass, but The one field we had was a baseball field across the street from my house. So all the younger kids started out in baseball. And I went from baseball actually and went to track. And I didn't play organized basketball till 10th grade.

Wow. Okay. And so what position in baseball and what'd you do in track?

I played center field, I played second base, third base. I played multiple positions and I was a pretty good baseball player, but after I got taller, Strike zone got longer. But I grew a love of basketball because of the Baltimore Bullets. Did

anybody ever hit the ball over your head in center field? Who's getting the ball over your head? Because obviously you're so athletic, but you're also— were you fast?

I presume you were fast. I was very fast. Again, I don't know if I loved baseball that much, even though I played, because I love track and field more. And I was always fast. I still hold my high school record in the quarter mile. In

the quarter mile.

To this day, I still have that record.

Wow.

So I was always into track and field, high jump, triple jump, anchor on the mile relay. So I wasn't a bad track—

I would imagine that you could have played anything and been successful. And you said the Bullets, and then how does basketball emerge for you?

Well, it was the Baltimore Bullets. And again, everybody played. either baseball or play basketball in my neighborhood. And so we used to sneak into Baltimore Bullets games when we were kids. You know, we got caught by Wes Unseld one time. He said, you kids can't sneak in. And I remember one time he gave us tickets to come to the game so we didn't have to sneak in. And that's when I developed a serious love for the game of basketball. Wow.

And what was that journey like? So sophomore year of high school, you come in. Were you already instantly a high performer as soon as you took it up, or what was the progression?

You know what, growing up in Baltimore, Baltimore was a very rough city. And I left home when I was 16 because I was trying to get out of the environment we lived in. And I remember I told my mom, when I turn 16, I'm leaving. And I remember her saying, where you going? I said, I'm going to go to North Carolina, hopefully find a career in basketball. And I got discovered on the playground the next day after getting off a Greyhound bus. And an older gentleman said, hey son, you live here? I'm like, I'm not sure. He said, where you going when you leave? I'm not, I'm not sure. And he said, come go with me. We went to his home, showed me his house, showed me a kitchen, bedroom. You can have all this. The only trade-off is you have to play for my high school team. He was the high school coach. Wow. And that's where it started for me. And, um, we went—

And how did he treat you? From

like, he treated me like I was his son. And that team went 76-1 in 3 years in the state of North Carolina, back-to-back state titles.

But you don't remember that and it doesn't matter much to you anymore, does it? I'm kidding. I'm totally kidding.

No, not really. I mean, it was just something we did.

I'm joking. Yeah. So I had the privilege of, not the athlete you are, but folks that know, as a baseball player, wrestler, and football player in high school. And we just went for my freshman high school football coach's birthday. So I just want you to know that I fully appreciate the imprint that high school athletic championships can have. And it's so amazing to hear that in you and that you did that as a 76-1 team. You know, and don't tell Tom Brady, if you talk to him, he was the quarter— backup quarterback at a winless high school freshman football team. He wasn't like you going 76-1 high school.

He became pretty good though. He did it right from there. He did it right from there.

And we talked about that in his— yeah.

But you know what, there's certain journeys you go through in life that makes you who you are. And I think those struggles that I went through early in my life and people always telling you, you would never be anything, it was just fuel for me to prove them wrong.

Yeah.

And so

how come you— so, so many kids, and, you know, without going into all the detail of what made you want to leave home at 16, but so many kids that are in an environment that isn't fully supportive in the way they want it to be go completely different direction. So like, what made you go up in instead of going down?

Well, I saw the struggle of my mom. First of all, my mom raised 8 kids by herself. My father was military, but the war messed him up.

Because you were born in France, right?

I was born in France, yeah. Then we moved to Maryland, but he was not the same person. So I don't put a lot of blame on him because he went through the war. And so she raised those 8 kids by herself.

Can I thank you for your dad's service?

Oh, thank you.

I appreciate it. And the sacrifices that means. We do a lot of things in the veteran space, and I'm really present that, and as you

are,

that the sacrifices people make in the military go far beyond, you know, just what happens surviving the military. But sometimes there's generational effects like that, and I'm very sorry, and I thank you for being you and for your father's service and your sacrifices.

Yeah, you know, and I said I loved my father to the day he passed because I understood the struggle he went through, you know. Over almost 30 years of military service. That's a long time, but it kind of helped mold me because actually it's the neighborhood who helped raise me along with my mom. Matter of fact, I had a playground legend taught me how to play basketball when I was 12. I had to meet him at the boys' club because back then it wasn't a boys' and girls' club, it was just a boys' club. And he said, come every day, I'm going to teach you how to play this game and you're going to owe me. And I didn't know what that meant. He said, the only thing I want for you to give to someone else what I'm about to give to you. Well, that's what gave me the courage to leave home when I was 16.

Well, congratulations. So you go, you're 76-1 in high school. I guess things are going well. And what happens from there?

Well, they went from loving me to hating me because back then in the state of North Carolina, if you're a great player in the state of North Carolina, you don't leave the ACC. It's

just

against the rules almost. And I was the first one to do that, great player to do that out of North Carolina. I went to Georgia. When I signed with Georgia, They went from loving me to hate me, and I got death threats, cross burning in my yard. It was a bad situation. And when I left there, I didn't go back for 30 years. Oh my God. 30 years. And the only reason I went back, the mayor of that town drove from Washington, North Carolina to Atlanta to view my film, my life story. And I said to myself, I said, if he can do that, the mayor of that town can drive up by himself, I can go back. And I was kind of reluctant, but I went back. I remember coming, driving down the road, I see all these people on the road. I mean, I was nervous, right? I didn't realize it was a parade for me that he kind of orchestrated. So that's still a part of your history. So you have to at some point go back.

You seem so honorable, so respectful. And I know you've been asked a million times, And I'm going to just fast forward just because it feels like the right spot. I think it is, and I'm not asking you to comment, I'm not asking you the question that people have asked you. It's so crazy to me that you were not a first ballot Hall of Famer. I'm not asking you to comment on that. It's crazy.

Well, I'm going to comment on it for you. Okay. Crazy. I'm going to comment on it for

you. Crazy. You can say whatever.

Crazy. I think it was ludicrous.

Thank you. And you are so gracious For the years in between that first ballot and when you appropriately were in the Hall of Fame, and just the way you're talking about your dad and the way you're talking about North Carolina and a cross burnt on your lawn, how did you maintain the grace? Where'd that come from?

Well, you know what? I've been hit with stumbling blocks my whole career, from when I was a kid till I went to high school, till I went to college. I went The pros, and when I got recognized in the Hall of Fame, at the time I led all votes.

Yeah.

And I got the call and they said, hey, we've never given a call like this, but we're putting all coaches in this year, no players. I'm like, wow. But I think the way it was mapped out, they wanted myself and Charles Barkley to go in together that year. But I look back on things, man, I've always been able to overcome adversity, disappointment. And so I tell people like this, the people that know me best know what I bring and they know what I meant to the game and they know my heart and my drive. So long as my peers know, it doesn't matter what other people think because they know what I did throughout my career. But one thing I— and you touched on this about Kids, especially the youth today, we got to stop using being a product of an environment as an excuse to fail. If you believe in something strong enough, you have the ability. If you have the ability and you put the attitude and the respect that you're given, if you put all that together, you can accomplish anything you want. But you got to believe. I can't believe in you more than you believe in yourself.

And so I tell my sons that, I tell my daughters, you gotta believe in what you want to be. And because if you don't believe it, I can't help you. I can only guide you, but I can't help you get there.

And may I ask though, so you have the greatest slam dunk contest in history and you've been that champion. People call you the greatest above-the-rim player ever, the human highlight film, right? And then you're in Chicago and I mean, Michael Jordan even tells you, I think the way the story goes, that you beat him, right? And then the judges. So it seems like, again, you had so many different moments. Larry Bird trash, you're scoring, was it 47?

I had 40, I think I had 47 in that game.

47 in game 7. So there's all these moments where you are overcoming and overcoming and overcoming. And then you have the Larry Bird trash talking, you have the weird scoring at the at the slam dunk contest. And we have leaving home at 16 because maybe the environment, not maybe, the environment's not what you need to be. But really, for anybody out there, I'm in shock, really. You get to know people, you hear people talk from afar, but you just seem so loving. You seem so caring. You seem obviously you're a champion.

Yeah.

Like you're a master, right? How come you weren't bitter, you weren't angry. How could— it's a lot of folks that are that, you know, in sports and business that you were slighted at times, you know, right? For, you know, what would you tell people about that?

You know what, the one thing I would say, and when my dad was in my life a short time in his life, the one thing he told me, he said, a man stand on his own 2 feet. Don't make excuses. Don't blame people about what you don't have, what you do have. I said, because at the end of the day, it's up to you what you do. And that stuck with me my whole life. And especially when I was young, because I wanted to treat people like I want to be treated. I've always believed in that. And it's not— basketball was a stepping stone to do something bigger than myself, to give back what I've learned and what I can teach. I think we have a social responsibility to do that. And so I don't— I don't look at just myself, and that's why my wife and I, we're involved in so many different charitable things that we believe in because we live it. We have kids who have some of the same issues, and some of those issues that people often have a problem with, they don't know how to interact with others to find a solution.

But I've always loved people my whole life. And so it's all about the people because people always ask me, they say, Nick, why you never travel around with security? I'm like, why? I said, because I want people to know that I'm just as human as they are. Yeah, I might do things in my life that brings excitement, but I'm just an ordinary guy. And so I've never been an egotistical guy. Only time I had attitude is when I was between those lines. And you had to be when you're competitive. But I just try to love life the best I can.

Yeah. And again, We acknowledge deeply here. I teach acknowledgement. I don't say what I don't mean, but from the minute you walked into this room with your lovely wife, you just felt so warm, welcoming, so real, so authentic. And it's refreshing. I've met a lot of people and had a lot of the privilege of that. But you feel, Mr. Wilkins, so grounded, like so clear on who you are and how the world works. It's inspiring to me. I think I'm a pretty grounded person and I love people a lot. And I'm like, if I were in your shoes in some of these situations, which on a much smaller level than you in the public eye, I've been, and I haven't been as gracious as you. And I'm a pretty gracious person. So thank you for inspiring me and the folks out there to be so loving and so gracious and so elegant.

You know, I want to small it. From the smallest to the biggest person to feel comfortable and loved and wanted or embraced, I should say, around me. Because I don't want to ever want people to feel threatened or feel like that I'm untouchable. And that's why I never believed in superiority around me my whole career. And that's why I've always been a guy who could stand on his own and make his own decisions. And a lot of times people looked at it like, looked at me like it was crazy. I said, but you know what? I'm still standing. Wow. So it, it must have worked out pretty good.

And, and I think too that so many athletes, you know, we had the privilege of interviewing Dwight Gooden on this pod. I'm a huge Met fan. I was there at Game 6, 1986, and Mookie Wilson. And, you know, I love people and, you know, a lot of my, I'm a, a Jet fan, poor me. And I had the privilege of speaking to, you know, a lot of these folks and, So many folks, whether their career ends in high school with their friends, mine didn't, or college, that's where mine ended, or professionally, a lot of folks don't make that transition from whatever stardom they had, whether it's high school, college, pros, right? Into life after success. And you've done that.

Yeah.

And so few people do. And you've done it in business, you've done it being vice president of basketball for the Hawks and as an analyst. And what helped you make that transition, do you think, when so many people don't?

Well, from that guy, playground legend, who taught me how to play the game to people like Ted Turner, has taught me a lot, you know, about life, about business, and just about interacting with people. So I've had some really cool people in my journey to get to this point. But when it's a part of you, when it's a part of your life, it's not hard. It's not hard. And it's never been hard for me to connect to people. But what I did before I retired, I started to say, okay, now what do you want to do after basketball? And I said to myself, well, I probably want to be involved with the Atlanta Hawks in some form or fashion. And they always told me, whenever you retire, You're going to always have a position here. And so I started thinking about the executive side of basketball probably about 5 years before I retired. And so I kind of prepared myself for life after basketball because I tell these young people, you can't do this forever. You know, you got to prepare because basketball is a short period in your life and your career. It's a short period, believe it or not.

And so you got to find something that will give you the same type of satisfaction for a longer length of time.

Yeah, for sure. And Darren Prince, thank you, Amen High Foundation. That's how we've connected. And his friend and partner, James Amo Amorosi.

Yeah.

He says when he's ever been in any place in Atlanta with you or in the building, you are just royalty walking around. How do you navigate all of the people that approach you that have things they want from you? And And filter through all the opportunities, all the words, and how do you do all that?

Well, when you're a person who gives your time to everybody, at times you get taken advantage of. You do. And you make mistakes, but it's what you learn from those mistakes. But it doesn't change me as a person because I, again, I want people to feel like they can stay connected to me and be a part of my life. But at the same time, you know, as you grow, you know the people who are not there for you. And so I tried to separate myself from that without letting people that I am close to or people I do admire be hurt by it. So I've been very fortunate to, like I said, to understand who's out there is really for you and who is not. And I know we've both been through those things, but again, people ask me, if you had to do it all over again, would you change? I wouldn't change a thing because it made me who I am today by going through a lot of those struggles.

Yeah. Well, thank you for that. And so fun moments in the career, moments that you look back on.

Oh man.

Some of your personal favorite moments playing in your career. What were a couple of those?

Well, high school and college was great. I mean, I had so many great stories, but as of late I can go back because, you know, I'm getting an older guy. I can't go back too far. No. But if you look at, the NBA and the era that I played in.

Can I ask this? Do you more fondly think of high school, college, or the NBA? If I could start there. Like when, if you obviously, when you was like going to school—

For me, if I fondly think of high school.

That's,

that— 'Cause high school—

I love you. I do too. For everything in my life, it's like my favorite. That's incredible.

Please. 'Cause you're not tainted.

Yes.

You know, there's no money. There's none of that but competing, love and respect for the guys you going to war with every day. I mean, So it's more fun because you're green. I mean, what do you know? You don't know much at that age, but one thing you do know is competing. And especially when you got 13, 14 guys have the same vision that you have. And my high school team, man, we were unbelievable.

And what was your high school? The name of your high school?

Washington High School in Washington, North Carolina. And what was your— Small country town.

And what was your nickname? Like what was your—

The nickname was the Washington Pam Pack. I mean,

Pan

Pac? Okay, let me explain it to you.

No, no, we both have really— we were the Cavos. I didn't know, like, nobody knows what a Cavo is either. So it's so funny.

Nobody knew what the Pan Pac was. You know what Pan Pac—

We're the Pan Pac and Cavos and nobody knows what those things are.

It was a Pamlico Packing Company, so they shortened it up to Pan Pac, you know. But, uh, yeah, but we were a household name in North Carolina and that team was really, really good, you know. The one game we lost, the team that, um, We beat by 30 in the regular season and they beat us by 1 point on a buzzer shot. And Coach told us, he said, if you guys stick with us for 2 more years, we won't lose another game. And we like, yeah, all right, yeah, sure, Coach. But he was right. We ran off 56 in a row in 2 years. Yeah.

So I get that. So high school, check. Amazing. How about a couple fun moments from the NBA that really— well, Enjoy thinking.

I think the fun moments for me is playing against some of the greatest players that ever played this game, Magic Johnson.

So they came, right? So just context, for folks watching, '79, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson's podcast. '82, Tom Wilkins. I think it's '84, Michael Jordan.

Yeah.

Right? Okay. So please.

We were right behind one another. And my first experiences You know, I'll just give you a short version of this Larry Bird story. I'm a rookie, I'm in Boston Garden, I'm excited, it's mystique, the jerseys. And I go shake his hand, he put both hands behind his back. I'm like, well, maybe he just getting into the game. So I'm guarding him, first play of the game, he says, I don't know why they got you guarding me, Holmes. And he hit a 3. And I wasn't mad. I said, wait, this is someone gonna just call me Holmes? I was mad. And so I came down and I had a play on the way where I was on the break and I dunked on him and he on the ground and I'm excited. And he said, hey, Rook, he said, I like you, but I'm still getting 40 on you. I think he got 38. So I wasn't upset because back then you had to pay your dues. That's the only time Larry ever talked trash to me because he knew that I was going to keep coming. I wasn't the guy that talked a lot of trash.

I just played. And it's funny because we didn't shake hands for 13 years. Wow. But we're very close friends today. I love Larry. I mean, we have a very special friendship.

And you put 47 on him in game 7, right? 47.

Yeah. But he had 24 in the 4th quarter. Did he really? Yeah. He had 12 points going into the 4th quarter. He ended up with 34, 36, something like that. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, this is the golden era of the NBA, period. I don't care what anybody says. That's how—

You won't get no arguments out of me. I mean, you know, I just give you this one thing.

Yeah.

If you look at by positions, everything is positionless basketball, hybrid type. But my first 8 games, I played against probably 9 Hall of Famers at my position. Larry Bird, 6'10, Dr. J, Bernard King, English, Dantley, McGuire, Nance, just to name a few. Every night, and all of them were averaging over 25 a game. And I remember saying to myself, man, if it's going to be like this every night, I don't know if I'm going to make it. But I had to quickly say, I know I'm playing against these godlike players, but I'm going to let them know they playing against a god too. And so I had to adapt that attitude because then you got embarrassed every night. So once I got to that point, I was good.

That is unbelievable. So as we draw Towards the conclusion for today, where do you go from here, Mr. Wilkins? You had this incredible career, resiliency, injuries, and gold medal, right? For our country. Yeah. Thank you for that. Muhammad Ali lights the torch, 1996 in your home state of Georgia, right? Yeah. With the Hawks, like from your Hawks land, right? Not home state growing up, but the state that you played in, Georgia, and winning the gold medal there. If you can tell me what was that like and where does everything go from there?

Well, Atlanta became home to me, even though I'm not from Atlanta. I'm from Atlanta because That was the first city that ever called me their own. That was the first city that I felt like it was home. And so, and I say all the time, I'm not leaving there because of the way I was treated from day one. And so outside of basketball, I'm involved in a lot of different things and charitable stuff. Like, I'm very passionate about people who live on the spectrum of sensory needs. My wife and I, we've created along with another foundation that I started with. I've been their chairman for 10 years, the Pope City. We have our own sensory studio dealing with people on the spectrum to help them, families navigate through their lives, how they deal with people who are living with special needs.

Wow. Well, that is a beautiful, powerful thing. And I look forward to seeing what we can co-create in that space and be supportive of that cause with you. I'm deeply inspired. Very grateful. don't, you know, say it's the final final. If you were to— some, some people don't think about legacy, some people do. Whether you call it legacy, call it remembered lessons of your life, hopefully it's 100 years from now, uh, when you finally transition to a different place.

Yeah.

Um, what do you hope that your life would have stood for, that legacy? You

know, I would hope that people recognize That how hard I worked on and off the court and never made excuses, never blamed anyone, and want my kids to know who their father really was, not just athletically and Hall of Fame and all that stuff, but who he was as a man. And realize that I never asked for anything, but I always gave it everything.

Wow. Certainly that shows up even in this moment, Mr. Dominique Wilkins. I'm immensely grateful. I'm inspired by your mastery, your grace, your accomplishments, your elegance, your forgiveness, you know, for people. And I'm taking away a lot, and I hope you are too. And thank you so much.

Thank you, man. I appreciate you, man.

Appreciate it. Thank you.

Thank you so much. Thanks so much, man.

Yep. I'm going to grow a little bit more, I think.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. I love you, man. Thank you so much, man.

Thank you.