Transcript of Cheryl Hines: Stories From “Curb Your Enthusiasm” and Sticking by RFK on His Way to the White House

Sheryl Heinz, thank you for coming all the way out here. We were talking at breakfast. Your life, the trajectory is pretty amazing. You are very far from where you started.

That is true.

Where did you start?

I started in Florida, in Orlando, Florida. I grew up in Orlando, in Tallahassee. And then one day I drove my Toyota Turcell across the country to Los Angeles. Fabulous.

By yourself?

No. I was dating a guy, and I said, I'm moving to LA. And when it came time to move, he was very sad, and he said, Can I ride with you. And I said, Please don't. And he said, no, please, please. I just want to get out of... I want to see the country. I've never seen the country. And so we broke up, and then we drove across the country together.

Well, that's awkward.

It was very awkward.

Why did you move to LA?

Why did I move to LA? Yeah. Because I knew I was going to move to... Because I always wanted to be an actress. And I knew I was going to be New York or LA. But I knew two people in LA. One guy from my high school and another guy who was a family friend, one of my brother's best friends. So I knew two people. So I thought, okay, then that makes more sense, LA.

Were they at CIA? Were they powerful agents, those two people?

No. No, no, not at all. Well, actually, so one of my best friends, Paul Beckett, we went to high school together, and he moved out there, and he was a professional background actor. What's a background actor? Like an extra.

Is that what they call him, background actor? Yes. What is that life like?

He loved it because it was day to day. You get a project, you don't have to prepare much. You just show up.

Not a lot of lines to memorize.

No Three lines to memorize. You know what the hardest thing about doing background work? Have you ever done background work?

No, I've been in the background in a lot of events, but I've never been paid for it.

It's harder than it seems because if they're shooting a party scene and your background, you have to stand behind the main actors and act like you're talking, but you can never say anything. So it's a lot of...

Or you can't actually speak out loud.

No, you can't speak speak out loud. But you just, you act like you're talking, and you make eye contact with the person that you're talking to. And then you take turns, mouthing words, but try not to look crazy doing it.

That sounds really hard, actually. It's hard.

I found it to be hard.

Oh, you did it?

Oh, yeah, because you have to do it as an actor, too, because sometimes, you know you're shooting something in the per, in that somebody else's coverage. And so they ask you not to actually say words out loud while they're doing their dialog. So how did- It's even like clapping. Usually, when you see people clapping, they're not actually making noise. Seriously? They put that in later. Yeah.

Do they have like hand muffs to keep it from...

No, you're just a professional, and you know not to... Not to touch. Not to touch.

So how did you go? So you show up not knowing anybody except one extra, went to your high school, and then you wind up succeeding. How hard is that?

It was hard.

Yeah.

It was hard. I got a bartending job, which actually was also hard. You wouldn't... Yeah, it's a hard job. It's a hard job. And in LA, it was hard to get a job as a bartender or as a waitress because everybody's doing that because everybody is trying to get a job as an actor or writer. So even to get those jobs are hard in LA. But I managed to get a job in this hotel in downtown LA. It was the Intercontinental. I think they've changed it since then. So that was good. I did that. And then it just took a year for me to work in that hotel in that bar to just get used to LA. And at that time, you would send out your headshot and resume to all of the agents in town and hope that somebody would be interested in, just from looking at your picture be interested in meeting with you. And I didn't do it. I wasn't ready for the rejection because I thought, what if I send out a picture and resume to every agent in this town and none of them want me? I wasn't ready. I didn't have a plan.

What would be the plan? So until I was ready with that, that form of rejection, I couldn't myself to do it.

How did you prepare for that rejection?

A lot of self-pep talks. You know, where you're... I would just say, Okay, what's going to happen? This is probably going to happen. Probably not one person is going to respond. And who are you going to be? Is it going to change you if nobody responds? And for the first year of my life there, I thought, yeah, it'll change me. It'll break me. It'll... This is the only thing I've ever wanted to do. But after I was there for a while, I realized, okay, my self-worth doesn't depend on if somebody looks at my picture and decides they want to represent me or not. I finally got to that place where I realized, okay, life is going to go on. I'm going to be the same person. I'm still going to be an actress. I'll just have to do it a different way.

And this is before you'd send a single headshot to a single agent. That's pretty self-aware.

Well, I guess I just didn't want to... I didn't want to... Even though it was the only thing I wanted to do, it's the only thing I've ever wanted to accomplish. And I thought, well, is my life going to be over at 25? If Am I going to let them decide if I'm successful or not, these agents? So, yeah, I had to get to that place.

So then how did you get in?

Well, then I sent them all out, and I did get a response. And let's just say it wasn't one of the big agencies.

But was it a legitimate agency?

I'll say yes. There are so many agencies in Los Angeles. Oh, I know. And really, there are a handful that are... I mean, there are a lot that are legitimate, but there are really only a handful that are powerful.

Yes.

It wasn't one of the powerful ones. As a matter of fact, I wasn't getting any auditions. They never sent me out on one audition. But You remember the Tanya Harding and Nancy Kerrigan? Nancy Kerrigan. Yes. Very well.

Jeff Galuli?

Yes. Jeff Galuli. You used to be able to see the breakdowns for what they were casting. They would come out on something. I would read the breakdowns to see what people were casting for. And at the time, people were telling me I looked like Nancy Kerrigan. I thought, okay, well, maybe I should... There was a TV movie for for this, for Tanya Hardy, Nancy Kerrigan. So I thought, I should at least go in. And so I knew my agent was not submitting me, or if they did, nobody's opening that. Or I thought they probably weren't. So I put my headshot and resume in. I put a Post-it on my picture that said, You should see her for Nancy, exclamation point. I didn't sign it because I didn't want anyone to think that I was doing anything underhanded. And then for the return address, I put my agent's address, and I got called in.

Wait, you pitched yourself on behalf of your agent?

That's correct.

Did your agent get a cut of the fee?

Well, I didn't book it. But my agent called. It was like, guess what? I've got an audition for you. I was like, . Nancy Kerrion? . Actually, but I did have a really good audition, and I may have been called back because there was a lot of talk about ice skating. Did I know how to ice skate?

And growing up in Tallahassee, probably a pretty good ice skater. I don't. You didn't play hockey from a young age.

Yeah, I have a great ice skater. And I said, You know I know. Of course, I know how to ice skate. And they were like, Okay. I I think I got called back because when I got called back, I do remember there were four girls that looked a lot like Tanya Harding and four girls that looked a lot like Nancy Kerrigan. I was just sitting in this room just looking around like, wow, this is weird.

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Well, that's when I was living in Orlando. It was for Swamp Thing, the TV show, inspired by the movie. Okay. Swamp Thing.

I missed the whole Swamp Thing genre.

Yeah, it's too bad.

Was it a straight to video at enterprise, or what was it?

What? Swamp Thing?

Yeah.

The movie? Yeah. No, it was a hit movie. Actually? Yes. Yes.

Wow. I'm embarrassed.

You should be. Sorry.

I was in boarding school, I think.

Yeah. No movies. You guys weren't allowed to watch that. No. Then the TV show, I was an evil scientist. And in the show, I am holding a gun. I'm about to shoot another scientist. And I hear a beeping sound because earlier in the episode, I had pulled the plug on my stepfather's life support machine. Yeah. And now I'm hearing a beeping sound, and it's driving me crazy. And then I dropped the gun, I clutched my heart, and I die. And I said to the director, I said, before we shot it, I said, Just so I'm clear, what exactly am I dying of? I mean, I know we're talking about telltale horror, where the beeping is driving you crazy, and can anybody else hear it? All of that. I said, But what is the thing that's actually killing me? And he said, Sheryl, we don't have time for this. What you just need to drop the gun. And then the gun handler, who was somebody on set that's there for gun safety and shows you how to handle the gun. He was like, Please don't drop the gun. He said, If you could, can you can you lay it on the couch on your way down to the floor.

I was like, Oh, okay. So I had to... The director was like, just clutch your heart. I said, so a heart attack? And he's like, that's fine. Yeah, let's say, that's fine. We got to go. So that was my... So I died. Big death scene. It was exciting. And that was my big first role. That's why I moved to LA, because- Because you were hooked. Well, because I This was my springboard to stardom.

No, I'm not, I'm not mopping.

Because I just got it. I just got this roll, and there was nothing else really shooting in Orlando. Probably not. So I thought, okay, this is a good time to go to LA. Swamp thing is going to come out. The agents in LA are going to see it. And my phone will ring off the hook. And then I called my sister because she was still in Orlando, when it came out. And I said, so did you, did you watch it? How was it? Because we were three hours later, earlier, later. And she said, you should start drinking now. So, we did. Then we had a Swamp Thing watch party. And it was fun. I mean, this was not like a... Nobody got golden globes from Swamp Thing. No one. No, not, no. And my phone didn't ring after.

So how long did it take you from the day you got to LA till you thought, I'm successful now?

Ten years.

Ten years?

Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

How predatory is LA? It feels that way to In what way?

In what way?

It feels like there's a lot of ambitious people, and then there are a lot of people with power taking advantage of those ambitious people. That's the way it feels.

There is definitely that. There is definitely that. I had one experience that I actually talked about in my book, Unscripted, where there was a director that approached me and said, Will you meet me in my hotel room? I want to talk to you about a film. And at that point, I had a different agent. I had a better agent. And I was on Curb at the time. And I said, Well, I talked to my agent and I said, is this- You're on Curb your enthusiasm when he called you? You know what? I think we had shot it, but it hadn't air. Okay. Oh, Because I met him in a drug store in LA. Yeah. I mean, this person has since been Well, exposed, if you will. And he came up to me and said, Oh, you know. I mean, I guess I could tell you the name.

Yeah, go ahead. Okay.

It's James Toback. James Toback. So he He wrote... What did he write that? A Bugsy. He wrote the film Bugsy. He's a successful director, writer. I thought, Well, this is a legitimate person. My agent said, I think you should meet him. I said, Even if it's in his hotel room on a Friday night.

It's a little weird. How about the Polo Lounge?

Yeah. And he said, You know, people do this all the time. This was a while ago. This was a while ago.

They do this all the time.

Okay. This was probably how long ago? 20 years ago. No, no, more than that. 25 years ago, at least. And I felt strange going to a man's hotel room on a Friday night. So I asked my friends to come with me. I said, Will you guys wait in the Polo Lounge?

I said, This is the- Oh, it was in the Beverly Hills Hotel? Yes. Well, that's just perfect.

Am I allowed to say that? And then I I gave him the room number. I said, If you don't hear from me in whatever it was, 30 minutes, come knock on this room, because I don't know if I'm going to have phone reception. I don't know what's going to happen. It's probably all going to be fine. But if you don't hear from me, just come to the room. And so when I got to his room, I said, Just so you know, my friends are waiting for me downstairs. And he said, okay, or whatever. I did not get the vibe that it was a weird situation. And then he starts talking, and then he's telling me, you really have to be willing to step out of your comfort zone as an actor. You have to... And he's asking me, Do you feel like you can do that? I said, Well, of course I can. I'm an actress. I'm a trained actress. This is what we do all the time. And so then he starts asking me strange questions.

What?

Do I have a lot of body hair?

Do you have a lot of body hair?

Mm-hmm. Wow.

And I- That's not usually part of the woo.

It's really not. And I thought that's it.

It's so crazy. You have a lot of body hair? For an opening line, that doesn't seem effective to me. I'm not a woman, though. Does that work?

Oh, yeah. I fell madly in love that night. We had tons of kids, and we're happy. I was like, Okay, well, I can't say that I do. I'm like, looking at the hair on my arms. I'm like, You can't really see it. I don't know. I don't know where this is going. And then he says, You want to take off your shoes and get comfortable. I said, Oh, I'm comfortable. And he said, You don't want to take off your shoes? And I said, I don't. I'm totally comfortable. Don't worry about me. And I was wearing boots. And he said, Why don't you take off one boot? Come on.

And at this point, I'm like- Men are so creepy.

I'm sorry. I'm like, One boot. And I'm thinking to myself, Why one boot? Where is this going? Why would it be one boot? But for whatever reason, I was intrigued. Why one boot? So I took off one boot. I left my sock on, and then he starts talking in, and then my friends knock on the door. And I said, Oh, that must be my friend's. And he looked at me like, What are you talking about? And I went and I opened the door and they were all... It was like an episode of Friends, where all their heads are in the doorway like, Sheryl, and one of my friends looked at my feet and he said, Where's your boot? I said, Oh, it's by the couch. And he goes, Get your boot. We're going. And they were all like, Yeah, get your boot. You're out of here. And I said, Yeah, it is weird, isn't it? And he said, Yeah, it's weird.

It's so weird.

And then I left.

Did you ever talk to him again?

No, But he was sued by a lot of women because he would... This is what he'd do. He would... Because he is a successful person, director, writer, he would go up to women in New York and LA and say, I'm James Toback. You must know me. Why don't you come over to my place? I want to work on something with you or show you a script or whatever. And... Oh. And his thing was, apparently, that he liked feats.

Yeah, that is a thing.

And he would manipulate these women, overpower them, and do sexually provocative things.

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No, same. In the moment, I don't know. It never occurred to me that this would... It never occurred to me that this is a weird guy who is trying to, do something sexual. I mean, it, I guess it was, it's a slow burn, because a lot of stuff you do as an actor is weird. There are a lot of things that are not normal, that are odd, that are out of your comfort zone. You're showing up on a set and kissing a person that you just met, and that's part of your job. If that's your role, that's the scene. So there are things that happen that are just strange and also normal at the same time. So taking one boot off. I just didn't think that that was...

That the script called for that.

No, I didn't. I had no idea if the script would go for that, but I didn't... I can understand how a woman that's in a spot like that, it's a very vulnerable place for them to be. And if I didn't have my friends on the other side of the door, I don't know what would... I don't know what would have happened. I don't know But anyway, what was your question? It was something about taking advantage.

Are there predators in Hollywood?

I think you- That's my predator story.

How did you wind up on Curb your enthusiasm?

Well, I started studying at the Groundlings Theater in LA, which is an improv and sketch-comedy theater. And I was studying improv and performing. And at that point, I had gotten a better agent. And I started to go out on auditions. I was auditioning for different pilots, different TV shows. And I got called in to audition for a one hour special. They were just calling it the Larry David unscripted or Untitled Special. And so I went in and... Well, I was scheduled to audition, and then they called me and they said, We're running behind because there's no script. It's all improvised, and it's taking longer than we thought. So I don't know when you're going to be able to go in. And then that night, I was performing in a sketch comedy show. And I was performing a sketch that I had written. And the producer, director of the One Hour show was in the audience and really liked the sketch and thought that my sense of humor and Larry's would match up.

You didn't know him?

I never met him.

Did you know who he was?

I knew that he co-created Seinfeld with Jerry Seinfeld. Yeah. That's all I knew.

Yeah. He was not a public figure, really.

I didn't know what he… I I didn't know what he looked like. I didn't know anything about him. And so I wasn't... It was probably good that I didn't because I wasn't intimidated because I didn't even know who he was. I knew he was a lot older than me, and I knew I was going in to play, to audition for his wife. I felt like, I don't know if I'm right for this part, but I'll go in and try to have a great audition and see what happens. Maybe there's a different part, you know. And then when I walked in, I mean, the sketch that opened the door for me was about a woman in her workplace, and this guy comes in to do a safety, like go over safety procedures in an earthquake. Everybody in the office seemed to know what to do in case of an earthquake. They were answering all the questions right. Oh, if... Do you light a match after an earthquake? And somebody said, no, because there could be a gas leak. And I'm thinking, well, how did they even know that? And, should you walk around without shoes on?

No, because there could be broken glass. And then they said, what do you do if your water supply runs out? And I said, well, if push comes to shove, you can drink your own urine. And my coworkers were like, that's gross. I said, Why not? I mean, I don't. And they said, That's really gross. And so the rest of the sketch was, they're trying to move on. Do you call your friends? And I go, Just to be clear, I don't drink my own urine. I'm not going to come home and drink my own urine. And they're like, We get it. We've got to finish this seminar. And I won't let it go. And I said, Look, I'm going to say right now I'm not going to drink my own urine, even if there's an Apocalypse and the only way to survive is to drink your urine. I'm not drinking my urine. I want you guys to know right now I'm not drinking my urine. So that was the sketch that Bob Whitey saw that And he brought me in the next day to meet Larry. And then when I walked in for the audition, he said, Oh, the urine girl is here.

So that's the sketch that you wrote?

Yeah, that's the sketch that I wrote.

That does sound like something from Curp here in Tuesday.

Bob thought that Larry would appreciate that sense of humor.

Yeah. Well, that turns out to be a perfect match.

Yeah.

How long were you on that show?

The show was on for 24 years. 24 years? Well, it took 24 years. Yes. And there were 12 seasons. So there were some seasons when... There were some... There was like a four-hour, a four-hour, a four-year break between some seasons. It wasn't consecutive. Like most TV shows. Why? Because it was Larry David, and Larry wanted to only do shows when he felt inspired.

Smart.

Yeah. So he felt like after, even after the first season, I thought that was the end of the show because he said that was the end of the show. And then I get a call and say, Oh, we're going to do another season. I was like, that's amazing. So every season it was like that. And then one I got a call from him and he said, I've got some bad news. I said, okay. And he said, we're going to do, we're going to do another season, but you're not going to be in it. I said, okay. I mean, that's okay. And then they did a season in New York that I wasn't in. And in the show, Larry and I had gotten divorced. And then the season after that, he brought me back into the show as his ex-wife. But it was over 24 years that all this took place.

That's wild. So you got to know him well, of course. What's he like?

Well, of course, he's very, very smart, very funny. He's very caring. I know. So it doesn't seem like it, but he's very caring about people close to him. And he's neurotic.

Yeah.

So basically- I'm not breaking news. So basically- It's real. It's a lot of it's real.

Yeah.

Yeah.

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Yeah.

Did you get along with all of them?

I did. Really? Yeah. I loved all of them. I mean, I still do. Our crew, we had a few crew members that were with us from the beginning. You know what? It was very sweet, too, because there was so much time that was passing, and we all were... We had kids, and then we watched our kids grow up, and then we... You know, some cast members would have their kids as interns on the show. So it was sweet. They were just a real part of my It was a lot of your adult life.

Yeah, it sounds like that was a lot of your adult life.

Yeah, it was. Yeah.

You met your husband through the show or through Larry?

Yeah, through Larry. I met Bobby, Robert Kennedy Jr. Through I mean, Larry just introduced us. Larry and I went to a Waterkeeper event, and he just introduced me to Bobby. Not in any way like you guys should you don't have anything to do with each other. It was just like, this is Sheryl, this is Bobby. So, that was the first time I met him. Yeah.

What'd you think?

I thought he was nice. I He was a great speaker. Bobby was a great speaker. I saw him speak at the event. And also, I just remember, oh, that's a pleated khakis guy.

A pleated khakis guy? Yeah.

You know a guy that wears pleated khakis.

Is that a plus or a minus?

Well, is it a plus or a minus? I think growing up in Tallahassee, I had a lot of guy friends that wore pleated khakis, and it was a... It reminds me of a... Like a football coach type of... It's... To me, at the time, it felt like not a creative type person that I was used to. I don't know if that makes sense.

The pleaded khakis are the more non creative. Yeah. Interesting. I don't think pleaded khakis exist anymore.

I'm glad.

I am, too. That was It was a sad face in this country's history.

It was a sad face. I agree. I mean, listen, they weren't good for guys or girls. Right.

I agree. I never fell for it. I'm not bragging. Okay. But I never... No.

That's good. So, yeah. So what I...

I forgot that even happened.

It was burned into my brain. It was.

So it was part of the appeal, I got to fix this?

No. I mean, that part of the thing was just like, oh, he's a pleaded khakis guy. You know, okay, that's nice.

Yeah.

But yes, then when years later, When we got together, I was- It was years. Oh, yeah. Because when I met him, he was married, I was married to different people. So it was not at all like... There was no spark or interest or anything like that. It was just a casual acquaintance. And then I stayed involved with Waterkeeper, and I would see Bobby once a a year, I think, at a Waterkeeper event. And it was... He was always pleasant, always nice, but I really never even spoke to him that much because it was always a big event. And then I got... I got I got divorced. He got divorced. We were going through divorce, and I was going to see him, and I thought, Oh, this is interesting. Like, six years later, however long. It'll be interesting to see him because it's hard. It's hard going through a divorce. And it's hard even talking to somebody about it because nobody, unless you're going through it, nobody wants to talk about it. No, that's right. And even if you're going through it, you might not want to talk about it. But anyway, when I saw him, I said, How are you doing?

And he said, Good. I said, How are you really doing? And he said, Good. Well, we should talk. I said, Okay. And then we started talking, and I just It was really the first time I talked to him as a person, as a... And he was... Very, very dynamic. He's a dynamic person. I just saw him in a different way for the first time. I was really taken with him.

What did your friends think?

They, my friends, they thought it was fun. But at the time, Bobby was living in New York. I was living in LA. Bobby was an environmental attorney, and everybody loved him.

I remember.

Except for the big corporations that he was suing. Yeah. Yeah. So, it was just a a fun situation. And they wanted to hear the highlights, my friends. But it wasn't, it didn't seem like it was going to be anything permanent. So I don't know. But it was just the, it wasn't, didn't seem like a big thing at first.

Yeah. Well, a lot of things start that way.

Yeah.

So then you marry him. You're famous, he's famous, it's probably easier to marry someone who understands what that is, I would think.

Seems like it. I understand why people... It has its pluses and minuses, right? Of course. Because probably two people that are known, well known or whatever that looks like, they're only known in certain circles. So I don't know. There are probably two famous people that feel, somebody feels left out while the other person is shining or whatever that looks like. So there might be that. I know that should be true with friends that are actors, two actors together, and sometimes... Or a director and an actor, and their career is doing great, and the other one is in a different pocket in their career. That can be tough. But it was good for me and Bobby because we were in different worlds. Completely. Yeah. I remember early on when we were going through the airport together and somebody stopped him and said, what you're doing is amazing. What you're doing is so important for the environment, for our country, for people, for people's health. Thank so much. Almost in tears. I said, that was really nice. And then we keep going through. And then this guy said, oh, my gosh, that diarrhea scene that you did in the car wash, that killed me.

I was like, Thank you. I look at Bobby like, Ha-ha, you're not the only one. It was fun getting together with him in that way.

Then he moved out to LA.

Well, then he asked me to marry him. I said, I don't really want to get married if we're going to live in different states.

Fair.

Right? And he said, Okay, I'll come out there. Wow. I mean, I'm making it sound easy. It wasn't an easy decision, but yeah, that's what happened.

And just from the outside, looking in, things go great, and then COVID happens. And Bobby goes from being controversial to being really controversial.

Yes, you can say that. Yeah. Fair. That's very fair to say.

And more love, too. Not just more hated, but more prominent.

That's also true. Also more prominent. And And started really speaking to a lot of people. And it was hard, too, being in L. A, or challenging, perhaps, because the I would say the majority of the people in L. A. That I was encountering did not agree with him, and they could not imagine anybody agreeing with him. But the reality was, there were millions of people across the country that were agreeing with him. Oh, yeah. But it was hard to see that in LA. But that's what was happening.

Did anyone say anything to you about it? Like at work?

Yes.

What did they say? I'm so impressed by how brave your husband is.

Actually, I did get some of those. I bet you did. I did get some of those, but I also got, what is he doing? You've got to stop him.

You've got to stop him?

I got a lot of that. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Wow.

Like, it's... You know, the whole... I can't believe I'm the first one saying it. The whole vaccine issue. People were so passionate about it one way or the other. And the people... And there were a lot of people that felt like, if we don't all take this vaccine, we're all going to die. And if you don't take it, you're going to kill us. So people really felt like that and would tell me that.

Actually?

Yeah.

I didn't have very strong feelings about vaccines one way or the other my whole life. I never really thought about it. I didn't realize that it was a religion to a lot of people.

And political.

Well, but that... You know it's religion because that doesn't make any sense. If the vaccine is effective and you take it, then you're good to go. Why does it matter if I take it?

If somebody else does it.

That's what was- Did anyone... I heard smart people make that case. People I thought were smart, but it doesn't make any sense just on the face of it.

No, it doesn't make any sense, and that wasn't enough for people.

It wasn't?

No, it wasn't enough for someone to be able to take the vaccine and feel like, I'm okay now. I don't care what you do. It wasn't enough.

So the my body, my choice was not a real thing, it turned No.

No. It was like, and I need to get involved with your body. Yeah, it's your body, my choice. It's your body, my choice. Yeah. Your body, my choice. Yeah.

Yeah. And feminism is also obviously fake because why would you hold a woman responsible for her husband's views?

That's a fair question.

If you were a feminist, you'd be like, well, you're a human being, like with autonomy and stuff, and you're responsible for your views, but your husband is a different person, not the same as you. And he's got his views, so they're not your fault, right?

That one would think, but that's also not the case.

Yeah.

Interesting.

How did... So as... But this went on and on and on. It wasn't like a flu season. No. It was like years, and it got more intense.

Yes.

What was that like for you?

It was stressful. It was stressful, and it was loud. You know, it felt like the conversation was loud. And it was... You know what was really hard, I thought, was... Like I said, both sides. I felt like both sides were pretty loud. And so even if you would find out that maybe somebody had passed away, it seemed like both sides wanted to know, was that person vaccinated? Was that the reason? They weren't. Or is that the reason? And it made me sad because I had several friends that passed away during that time. And it felt like we were talking about the wrong things at the moment. You think?

It's like, wow.

It's not... Why are we talking about the person that just passed away? And who who they were and how they affected our lives. So I hated it. I hated that.

How can I use other people's deaths to score political points?

Yeah, I hated it. Yeah, well, good. So that was hard.

That's a measure of your decency that you hated that. No, it It is. Someone dies, you should- Take a moment. Mourn the person's death, right?

That's what it's all about. Who was that person? How did they remain in your life? Yes. And what do they leave behind?

Exactly.

But when it goes quickly from you skip over that conversation, it was just hard.

I think it was hard for people to accept that vaccinated people ever die because it's magic. And you live forever when you get a vaccine. And I think they were like, oh, there's got to be some way to explain that. How could a vaccinated person die?

Well, it felt like both... Once again, it felt like both sides were Well, yes, they got the vaccine, and then they got COVID, but they would have died if they didn't get the vaccine. It's like you could fit different scenarios into your own narrative, which was also annoying. And studies. So many talks of studies. Well, I can show you a study that shows this. I can show you a study that shows that. And it's just about back and forth. It's like being in a courtroom and you're watching both sides, you have an expert. And the expert will say, 100 %, if you pick up this glass, you will die. And then the other experts say, 100 % that is not true. Here's a study that shows something completely different. So it just felt like there was a lot of that going on. It still is a lot of that going on. Instead of, to me, what I have a hard time understanding is instead of always pointing the finger and saying, you're wrong, you better listen to me, you're wrong. Instead of that, and two people saying, okay, let's talk about this because it is a problem.

There's a huge problem here. It's a crisis. A lot of people are suffering. How can we figure it out? Like, show me what you've got. I'll show you what I've got. Is there a cross-section? Why aren't these two sides working together? That's what I don't understand.

Well, it's helpful to begin the conversation with, Here's how I've been wrong. And then everyone calms down.

Does anybody start with that?

It works.

It does work.

Yeah, because it's the ultimate display of good faith. I've been wrong, and here's how. And then you de-escalate immediately. But when you begin with, Here are the eight things I don't like about you. It doesn't go very far. So at this time, your husband is at home writing The Real Anthony Fauci, an amazing book, best seller, despite long odds. And what was that like? Did you talk to him about it as he was writing it?

There was a lot of Anthony Fauci talk in our house for good reason.

Of course, he's- Pro or con.

He worked really hard on it, and he spent a lot of time sighting sources in that book.

Yeah, I noticed.

So, he worked really hard on it, and he spent a lot of time sighting sources in that book. Yeah, I noticed. So, he days that were just filled with sighting sources. This article, that study, this goes on page two, this goes in. It took up a lot of space in our lives.

Yeah. I mean, there are thousands of footnotes in that book, and it's a very long book.

Yeah. So it was... Was it important? Yes. Was it joyful? No.

Yeah.

Wasn't like- No spouse of a writer is ever happy about books.

Yeah. I've had children cry to me when I'm going to write a book, another book, everyone cries. Please don't. Yeah, it's very unhappy. No, I know.

It is hard to write a book, isn't it?

It's awful, but it's terrible for the people around you.

Yeah.

Yeah. No, I'm very aware of that. I've received that feedback.

I hear you.

Sitting alone in your office. I'll try to do better. Chin smoking, feeling angry. No, no. I know that well. So were you ever worried that... I mean, this is getting more and more and more controversial. You marry this man and you're in separate worlds, as you said, and that's a wonderful thing. He's a star in his world. You're a star in your world. They don't really collide.

They don't even intersect. No, they don't.

People in your world think Bobby Kennedy's pretty cool because he's a Kennedy, and they're like Democratic Party royalty and liberal in a wholesome not a scary liberal, but a do-good or liberal. Everyone likes that. Clean water. You're on the coolest show in America, and of course, everyone loves that. All of a sudden, everyone in LA is pissed about COVID, and there's your husband in his office writing this book accusing Fauci of starting the pandemic.

Yes.

Were you worried that that was going to affect your life?

I I mean, was I worried? Yes, but it was more than worry. It was affecting my life. So it wasn't even like... But I was concerned. I was concerned. I didn't know if this was going to be something that we move through, that I move through, that, whoa, that was a crazy time. And now things are back to normal.

Did that happen? It did not. No.

There is no normal. No. We broke normal a long time ago.

Yes. This was beginning of a journey. Yeah. As I said at the outset, you're in a place I doubt you anticipated being.

Yeah, I did not expect that. So that was when I realized, Oh, this is changing everything.

So it was publicly reported that people in Los Angeles were like, Maybe we shouldn't give Sheryl Heinz work because of her husband. Do you think that's real?

I do think that's real. I think that's- I find that shocking.

I do. Sorry.

Well, I mean, some people are just so... They are so taken with politics. They're so upset by politics that even to see me is upsetting to them.

Can I suggest something, though, that this is why it matters? It's not just about getting parts in TV shows or writing books about Fauci. It's a genocidal mindset. It's the mindset that says, well, we hurt the guilty, but we also hurt his family. And that's a genocidal mindset. And it's weirdly in elite circles in the United States. It's like, what do you have to do with this? Nothing. You married the guy. By the way, you're already successful when you married him. You already had your own thing.

Yeah.

And you're already famous, and you marry him. You're not writing a book on Dr. Foucher, but let's hurt her because she's related to him. That's where genocide comes from, that way of thinking.

It is strange. It's very strange to me. At the same time, on the opposite side, yes, there are people that I'm probably not going to work with again, and there are people that I will be working with that have reached out to me and that are in this business, that are very successful people that say, oh, I want to work with you.

Well, that's a great way. That's a great way to look at it.

Yeah. But it was hard because at the time, I mean, I've really loved all the people I've worked with.

It sounds like you did.

And I really have appreciated them. And I also know we're generalizing. There are plenty of people that I have worked with that have reached out to me and will say, I can't wait to work with you again. They're not doing it publicly, but the other people aren't doing it publicly either. Nobody's, besides Bradley Woodford. Nobody Is going on?

What did Bradley Woodford say?

Oh, gosh. You didn't hear that dumb tweet? No.

I try and stay away from all things Bradley Woodford related. But tell me. I can't wait for the new outreach What is it?

Oh, my gosh. I don't know. It's when Bobby... I guess it's when Bobby backed President Trump. And I just woke up. I woke up and I had people texting me. And I was trying to stay off social media, too, because nothing good comes from it.

You think?

And I'm looking at my phone and I'm seeing text from my friends saying, what an asshole. I'm not thinking, who Oh, who's the asshole today? It's always somebody. And then somebody sent me his... Something that he posted on X, and it was something like... I bet my nephew Jack said, would know it by heart, but it was something like, Hey, Sheryl Hines. It was something like, Insulted Donald Trump, and then, of course, Insulted Bobby, and said, Oh, this is a real good... Setting a great example for the kids, talking about me, and a real profile and courage. I was like, What? First of all, what kids? What kids am I setting an example for? And if the example that I'm setting is that I'm supporting my husband, I'm glad. That's the example for the kids.

Best example you could set.

So that was strange. And then Profile Encourage, just because that's the name of the book that John F. Kennedy wrote, but no explanation other than... He just called me out for not...

It's your fault. …

Being outraged at my husband. I'm not even sure what he was hoping that I would publicly- Denounced your husband? Yeah, I guess.

That's it. I'm getting a divorce.

You're right, Bradley. It was so strange to me. I was just like, whoa, what? Yeah. And I know Bradley, and he's an acquaintance. And if I saw him at a party, we'd hang out and laugh and talk. But so for him to just suddenly come after me in a tweet was just weird.

Yeah. But consistent with the culture of the city that you live in, right?

Well.

There's not a lot of... I mean, it's so monochromatic. It's like everybody has the same views on everything.

You know what's interesting? After the first... After the election with Trump and Hillary, I remember going to work, and I remember... I was in the green room up somewhere. And people were talking about the election. Everybody was saying, I can't believe Trump won. Who voted for this person? And there was one actor that said, Oh, I voted for him. And everybody, I looked at him like, What? I love this actor. I'm not going to say his name because- Is he still working? Yes, and he's still working. I said, Oh, that's so interesting. I said, Why did you? I wanted to hear. I wanted to talk to him because I felt like, Oh, tell me why? Because what am I missing? And everybody else was just acted like he was a leper in the moment. Just like, And I remember thinking at the time, this is so strange.

Yeah. Because that's not an environment conducive to creativity. No. Creative people are open-minded. Yeah. And willing to entertain all kinds of wild notions, some of which are wrong.

Yeah. And curious. Curious. About other people, especially.

Exactly. Nicely put. They're curious about other people. Exactly.

So it's odd to me.

Well, yeah. And And maybe it has something to with the declining creative output in Los Angeles.

I'm just guessing. I can't speak to that. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I know. I know. Listen, the people in this country and the entertainment business are the best in the world. They're the best in the world. Yeah.

But a lot of it's being made outside of LA.

Right. I mean, yeah, that's the unfortunate part. A lot of the industry has been driven out. Yeah.

I mean, I always defend Los Angeles. I lived there as a child. I think it's the most American of all cities. I love it. I was just there. I'm probably the only person with my voting record to defend LA, but I always do. But I just notice that it's when I was a child, it did seem open-minded.

Yeah.

Maybe too much, probably famously too open-minded. Some things are not a good idea. Do whatever. Be the person you want to be. Right. Clearly, no. Clearly, that's not the road to happiness. On the other hand, it is the road to creativity.

Right. Well, that's why I find it odd. La, I find it odd that on the one hand, you have a lot of people saying, yeah, let people be people and love the person no matter who they are. That was the feeling I always felt in LA.

Unless you're married to someone who writes a book I don't like, in which case, you cut them off. I'm starved to death.

I was like, Oh, I didn't see the fine print. Okay, I know, no. I know, no. It's weird.

It's weird. Yeah. It sounds like just by the way you talk, that you were not super political.

No, I wasn't political at all. The only thing I had ever posted was to vote. I didn't say who I think you should vote for. I was just like...

But personally, you weren't yelling about politics at dinner. Most nights.

No.

Yeah, I can feel that.

And by the way, I never knew what politics my friends or coworkers had.

Yeah.

Because I would never be the person to bring up politics unless they were talking about it. I would I'm in, but it just was not... I was not that person that was interested. I was interested in entertainment, in writing, and producing, and directing, and acting. And to me, and so inspired by the people around me in LA. So inspired by them. So, yeah, politics was just for what other people do. Yeah.

I think most people felt that way. So when your husband said, oh, by the way, just so you know, I may run for President, what did you think of that?

I was shocked.

This is not something you thought of before?

No. No. Yeah, I said President of what? Because I was hoping it was like a board or a company or something.

Homeowners Association.

The Homeowners Association. I didn't support that. I was shocked. I was like, well, I need a minute to think about this. I mean, I have to give you an answer right now? Is this something that I have to answer now? And he said, no, I just... I need to know how you feel about it because I can't do it. I won't do it unless it's okay with you and you're supportive of it. And I said, I have to really think it because I knew that it would be life-changing.

And it's hard when- Did you know how much?

No. No. But I knew it would be big. I knew it would be. And I think what's really hard is, I've always been very independent in my life, right? I moved to LA. I lived on my own. I made my own path to do this and that, other things. And however I got there was not the normal way. I was doing it my in a way. So I was used to taking risks for myself and knowing, well, this might not work out. This might work out, might not. But that's okay. I'm taking the risk. But it's a harder Their, of course, situation, and this is with everybody, right? Anybody who's in a relationship, anybody who has kids, anybody who loves somebody else. When they want to take a risk, and they're doing it because they want to accomplish something or do something. It's harder when they're the ones making the decision, but you know that it's going to really change your life, too.

Oh, yeah.

Harder.

Was the show still going?

I can't remember when. Yeah, the show is still going.

What did they say when you show up at work and you're like, Hey, guys.

Didn't love it.

I bet.

They were always very loving to me and even to Bobby as a person. So I never felt hate coming at me or towards Bobby. But definitely, there were strong opinions about, should he be running for President against Joe Biden? That's how it all started, right? Because Bobby was- He's the fourth candidate to run for President and the only one not to get the support of Hollywood. Interesting. Yeah. It was an interesting time. I I did have maybe one discussion with someone on the set where that person said, Well, Bobby has to drop out. He cannot be running against Joe Biden.

On the set? Somebody said this to you?

Well, it was- Yeah, but at work. Yeah, at work. And I said, Well, I said, I don't know that Biden is a strong candidate.

Well, you are Ms. Understatement, aren't you? I don't know that Joe Biden is a strong candidate.

Because that's what they asked me.

He's like asleep in his pees at this point. He's like, not a strong candidate.

They said, Why is Bobby running? And I said, because perhaps Joe Biden is not a strong candidate. That was probably as heated as it got. But it was clear that A lot of people in town do not want Bobby running against Joe Biden. A lot of people in the country, a lot of Democrats. Democrats were not supportive of Bobby.

Well, somewhere.

Yeah, somewhere. Yeah, definitely.

On the margins. But the party itself was adamantly opposed.

Yes.

Wow. So how long did you do the show during the campaign?

We just had our last season. So It was probably... Bobby was probably running for maybe two months, maybe a two-month overlap or something.

What'd you think of that experience?

I don't want to get emotional. I thought it was...

It's all right. That stuff It was pretty heavy. Take a moment. Yeah.

I mean... It was hard because it may be sad.

Yeah.

Because I had been working on this show for a long time, and And it was always pure joy. Yeah. And I mean, even when the vaccines of it all were introduced, there started to be an element that made its way into conversations at work that up until that moment had, like I said, only been pure joy. And not to say that people through the years didn't have health issues, didn't have relatives who passed away. And so we were there for each other.

But it started to divide your friendships.

Yeah.

And it's- Is that because you showed up and said, you have to vote for Bobby for president or else I'm not going to be your friend? Or was it because people were cruel to you because of your husband?

Well, I don't know if I'd use the word cruel, but... Yeah, I never told anybody they needed to vote for Bobby.

Somehow, I didn't think you did.

I I... So, yeah. So, that part of it made me sad that that was how the show was ending for me, you know. And it was just personal for me. It was for everybody else. It was fine and it was normal. It was usual. They were ending the series and going on late night talk shows and talking about the show. They could talk about the show. They could talk about Curve without talking about politics, without anybody asking them questions about their spouses. But that was not the world for me. And so that was- You couldn't go anywhere without having to answer questions about your husband. Right. Yeah. It's still a conversation.

Yeah, I'm for conversation. I'm not for punishing the innocent because that, again, is the genocidal mindset that I object to completely. I just can't imagine. I'm shocked to learn how many people have that mindset and think it's okay to torment people because of their relatives. Thank God, I'm not held accountable for my relatives. I haven't been for most of my life. You know what I mean? All of us, I think, feel that way. Yeah. But the idea that you would attack someone for a relative is, man, that's so dark, I think.

I think it's really strange.

It's strange. You're a nice person. I can tell you're restraining yourself. You just see so much of this, and that's the same attitude. Well, let's kill the Tootsies because they're Tootsies, and their parents are bad. So let's kill the kids. That's just not the way to think. That's not the Christian way to think. It's not the humane way to think. And it was never the American way to think. And it is all of a sudden, and you're a victim of it. Yeah.

Well, it's an odd place to be. It's a straight, it's a very odd place. You know what? It's something that showed out to me, like during all this time, when tables were turning, after the 2020 election, and Biden became President, I had a good friend of mine who's no longer speaking to me. But she said, I wonder what Melania is going to do now. This is after the election. I said, Oh, I don't know. She could probably do anything she wants. She goes, I hope she can't. I hope she can't do anything. And I was like, What are you talking about? And she said, Well, if she is married to Donald Trump, I hope she can't do anything. And I just was eye-opening to me. I thought, Whoa, That's odd.

It's hate. That's actual hate.

I said, so... And she said, Haven't you thought that? And I said, I have not.

No.

I said, I have not spent one moment hoping something horrible for somebody else. It was But just to know that's what's living on in her mind. She has spent, even if it's two minutes of her day, but clearly it sounded like it was more than that, must spend time wishing. And by way, everything that I know about Melania Trump is pretty amazing. She only... She does a lot of work for children, and she does it quietly, and she doesn't need fanfare for it, but she really works hard to try to reunite children with their parents for the... A lot of different programs that she works. But so for one of my friends to be wishing something on somebody that she doesn't even know this person, I don't know. It was eye-opening to me.

Well, again, it's back to the same mindset. She didn't say, I hate Melania because of these three things she did. It was her connection to someone she doesn't like.

Exactly.

That made her guilty. You know what?

I don't know why That brings such clarity to me. Because like I said, now this friend does not talk to me.

Yeah. Because you're married to the wrong person.

Oh my gosh. I never... Why did I never connect that to that story?

Well, this is the root of It's like the root of a lot of the world's problems. It's like, let's kill their families, too. It's what's happening in a lot of places in the world right now. And it's happening in Los Angeles.

It's pretty crazy. Yeah. And I thought it was crazy at the time. It's like, well, you hate her only because she's married to somebody else you hate.

And she won't speak to you. This is a coworker friend from your business.

I had been friends with her since for 30 years.

Oh, gosh. I'm sorry.

Well, thank you. And I've come to… You have to ask yourself, well, if that's who this person is, is that who I- Well, that's right. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I think that's right. So one more source subject, but the security thing. That was very upsetting to me. I mean, I know your husband, and I really love your husband, so that was part of it. But even if I didn't like your husband, I would, and I very much do. But even if I didn't, I would think, presidential candidates ought to have secret service protection. If it's real candidacy, traveling around the country with staff, which he was, packing venues, which he was, very famous person. And then, of course, the whole his family backstory is so unbelievable. Right. So we don't need to be reminded of what could happen. It's obvious. And yet he did not have Secret Service protection from the Biden administration. He did not. They wanted him out of the race one way or the other. I think that's the obvious conclusion there. That's so dark and sick. But here's my question. I didn't see many prominent people up, including people he's related to, and say, whoa, wait a second. This man needs Secret Service. His father was murdered. Are you joking? What was that? Why was there no outcry over that?

I was with him. In some city, New York, I think. Oh, it was at MSG. It was last... I don't know when it was, whatever I travel to. But it was somewhere, and I was walking down the street with him. No, it was in DC. And he had no secret service protection at all.

Yeah.

And I was like, what is going on?

Yeah.

Why didn't people say... Why didn't prominent people- Isn't it crazy?

It is crazy to me.

Do you notice this?

Oh, yeah. Well, I talk about this in my book, too. Unscripted. Because that was also part of what... There were so many things that were very surreal about it. About Bobby running. But that was one of them where, that was a big concern. The biggest concern about him running was security, because I'm like, this is your putting yourself out there. And yes, your father was assassinated while while he was running for President. Your uncle was assassinated when he was President. This is so dangerous. And then I thought at the beginning, I thought, okay, he's announcing he's running for President. We'll see what happens in the primaries, because in the primaries, we'll know if he has support or not, and it'll go one way or the other. So I thought maybe this is going to go on. Maybe he'll be running for, I don't know, five or six months or something. And we had a private security He applied for a secret service. First of all, they didn't even respond to him in a normal timeline. So it was just like, well, we'll wait, we'll see, we'll see, we'll see. We'll see. We'll see. Then when Bobby switched to running as an independent, the Democrats came out basically and said on TV, I watched an interview where they said, no, we are going to make sure that RFK Jr.

Spends all of his money on lawsuits. We're going to keep suing him so he has no money for his campaign. And then, what we could hear people talk about, not in front of the camera, was also we're going to make sure he has to spend a lot of money on security so he doesn't have money for his campaign. And also, Herd, if he was given secret service, then it would legitimize him as a candidate, and they didn't want that. So all of that was happening. And then, yes, you had some family members who came out publicly against Bobby and said, But we love him. But I never saw any of them publicly say, even though we don't agree with him politically, we are concerned about his safety.

You didn't hear any say that?

I did not. Of his siblings, no, I did not. Sick.

It's the sickest thing. Sorry, you don't have to say that. It's your They're your in-laws. But I mean, I can't imagine anything more loathsome than that.

It was hard to believe, really hard to believe. And then, I went down a rabbit hole when I was writing in this book because at the time, people, different outlets would give different reasons why, of course, Robert Kennedy didn't get secret service. It's too early. But then you would look I would look up and Barack Obama got it 300 and something days before the election. People got it 200 days before the election. So that was not it. There Some people got it before they even announced that they were running. So whatever people were saying, they always were trying to make Bobby look Like he's being ridiculous. You're being ridiculous for asking. You're not even a real candidate. And meanwhile, he had someone show up at one of his rallies with loaded weapons, pretending to be a federal agent, flashing badges, and they arrested him. But then I was home watching when a guy came over my back fence and was approaching the house. I was on... I was doing a Instagram Live with my friend from Tallahassee. And I said, I see this guy out the window. And she said, Are you okay? I said, I think I have to go.

Something's happening. And then I see our security guard take his weapon out. And I'm watching this on Instagram Live. And I said, I really do have to wrap it up. So, yeah, that guy was apprehended, was arrested by LAPD, was released, and then took an Uber back to our house and was arrested again the same day. And both of those events were publicized. People knew about it. I was in LA when it happened, when the one guy was arrested at the rally, it made the local news. I don't know if it made the national news, but people knew. People in the administration knew. People in Bobby's family knew. And it's not everybody. I know there were a few members of the family that I know that inquired.

Issuing a public statement and calling Joe Biden to provide their brother or secret service would have fixed that in about two seconds.

Well, that's what President Trump did. Yeah.

Oh, I know. It's just crazy that it took Trump to provide protection to Bobby Kennedy.

I know. A year and a half later, Bobby had been running for a year and a half by that point.

Okay. The night Trump is shot in Butler, Bobby and Trump speak for the first time and start feeling each other out about maybe we could team up, maybe Bobby could endorse Trump, which at the time seemed completely crazy, but was clearly possible. From your perspective, for sure, your husband comes out against vaccines. Then he attacks Fauci. Then he runs for President. And now he's thinking about endorsing Donald Trump. I mean, these are... How many more red lines are there in Hollywood?

I think, yeah, that was definitely the last strike.

Yeah, that was it, huh?

Yeah. That was beyond anything anybody could take. Some people. But yeah, that was It's all been a learning process for me. It's been... It's sometimes it has tested me to take a step back and get a different perspective. Because like you said, That was something I could not have ever imagined.

Yeah. Well, it was a big deal. I mean, the Trump people who very much wanted, I know Bobby's endorsement wanted him to campaign with them, wanted to bring on the administration, knew that your opinion was really important to him. Obviously, you're his wife, but he really cared about what you thought, and they were focused on that. So when was the first time you met Donald Trump?

I met him. The assassination attempt was on a Saturday, and I met him on that Monday morning. I don't remember the dates by any means, but- That was July, mid-July. Yeah, so that It was right before the Republican Convention was starting.

Yeah, it started Monday night.

Right. President Trump wanted to meet with Bobby that morning in Milwaukee.

They had talked for the first time on Saturday, and then by Monday, you were out there.

That's right.

They work fast.

Well, we see that in this administration. They work fast. Yeah. So, yeah, everything was happening quickly. But there was a shift. There was a huge shift when there was the assassination attempt on Donald Trump. It was a shift. So many people were... A lot of Americans felt like that this is too much. Yeah. And now we really have to get behind Trump. This is too much. So there was that shift going on. And at the same time, it was... I I had to be emotional for President Trump and his family. I mean, the bullet came very close to killing him in inches. That's dramatic.

Yeah.

So there was a lot, there was a lot going on. And a lot of even emotions emotions happening. So when they started talking on Saturday, they said they wanted to meet on Monday. I was going to meet Bobby after this meeting. He was going to sit down with the President. They were going to talk and see what was... What, if anything, if they wanted to work together, if they didn't, if they agreed on things, if they didn't. And I was going to meet with Bobby after the that meeting. But when I landed in Milwaukee, the security said, Oh, we're taking you straight to the meeting. I said, I'm going to the meeting? So it was interesting. That was the first time I walked in. And it was Bobby and Amarillo's, who was my daughter-in-law, who was running Bobby's campaign at the time. Susie Wiles, who was running Donald Trump's campaign. And Donald Trump, and that was the first time I met him, and he shook my hand. And, he was a very genuine person. And it was, I don't know. I don't want to say surprising, but maybe It's really surprising.

Out-of-body experience. I mean, here you work on Curb with your enthusiasm. You live in LA for 30 years. I know. Donald Trump's the enemy, and all of a sudden you're in a meeting with him.

I know. By the way, there's an episode of Curb where Larry wears a Magga hat to repel people in LA so he doesn't have to have lunch with people, which is funny, but it's also true, which is also funny. But yeah, so I was, I don't know. I was expecting something else.

What were you expecting? Horn, sulfur?

I was expecting I think I was expecting somebody who didn't listen to other people, wouldn't be interested in other people. And that's not That's not who I met. I met somebody who was very interested in other people, really wanted to hear what somebody else had to say. I think that was very surprising to me.

Did you call back to LA and say, Hey, guys, she's actually cool.

Good news, guys. I didn't even tell anybody at the time. And it was It was so stressful. There was stress for so many reasons at that time. Security, number one reason, right? I mean, this just happened with Donald Trump with Secret Service protection. And Bobby still didn't have Secret Service protection. And during that meeting, President Trump posted, Bobby Kennedy should have Secret Service protection. This is ridiculous. And that day Bobby got Secret Service Protection. I mean, were the wheels already in motion, perhaps? But the other thing about... So he ended up getting Secret Service Protection. It was a presidential an executive order, which was fine. But usually, when a presidential candidate gets secret service protection, when they're running, their spouse, their family also has protection. But because this was an executive order, it was just for Bobby, which was also strange because suddenly I'm in the house. I'm in my house. Now we have secret... Bobby has secret service. So I will be in the house with the kids for two days. And then Bobby's coming into town. And then we have to evacuate the house so they can do a bomb sweep before Bobby gets there.

In your house? Yeah. I'm thinking, oh, the house that we've just been in for three days. Nobody cared about the bomb then. This is weird. But yeah, that's how it was. So, it was straight. I thought that was strange, too. So it was just a very... It was a very stressful time. So during that meeting, right? So I mean, stressful already that there was an assassination attempt on Donald Trump. That's so stressful. That's so awful. And what does that say about us? And then now he's meeting with Bobby because they're talking about perhaps working together. Also stressful. And then that day we get Secret Service protection. So that's another You know, crazy thing that's happening. Because now you're talking about police, sheriffs everywhere around your house, and motorcades everywhere Bobby goes, everywhere Bobby goes. Just like motorcade. I'm sure the neighbors didn't love it. And the dogs, now we had bomb sniffing dogs, and we already had our crazy dogs. It was just all All of it was a lot happening at once. Yeah, that's when I... I was just telling you, I broke into hives. And then later that day, while I was in Milwaukee, my lips started swelling.

I mean, a crazy amount. It is a crazy amount. So much so that I had to go to the emergency room because I was worried that my throat might close up. It was all from stress.

That's wild.

It's crazy.

So when was the first time you told people back home that Trump was actually normal in person?

Well, I really didn't tell my friends. I I told my... I mean, I'm very close to my sister and my brother. So they're really my sounding board. One of my best friends back in LA I mean, I have a few best friends back in LA. I wouldn't even tell them that because I didn't want them to be stressed about it. I didn't want people to know because I don't need them, other people asking them about it because I know that there are people are already mad because I'm married to Bobby. I don't need people being mad at my friends because I'm married to Bobby and they're friends with me. I wasn't even telling people. I don't want to put them in a position of, Oh, my God, I can't believe your friend did this. Does that make sense?

Of course. I mean, it makes sense if you live in a completely insane world, where talking to Donald Trump is a death penalty offense. I mean, it's so fucking nuts that it's hard to know how even to assess it. No, it's crazy. Yeah.

But my family, my sister and my brother, they were like, yeah, that makes sense. That's really interesting. They were very curious to hear about it and what I thought about it and what I how I found Donald Trump to be. They were like, wow, that's so interesting. But I guess that makes sense because you do hear that about him. You hear that he's... People say he's charming, and I understand why. Because somebody who is, somebody that you meet that feels completely comfortable with who they are, completely comfortable in their own skin, they come across as charming. Of course. Because it's like, oh, I don't need to put on any airs. I don't need to be anybody other than I am. Exactly. And that's who I found him to be. I found him to be just a genuine person.

Did you ever meet Melania?

Yes. I've met her a few times. What do you think? I really like her.

Did you call your friend in LA and say, Actually, she's pretty cool?

I did.

Did you, actually? Yeah.

I mean, Melania I haven't had... I've definitely had more time with President Trump than Melania. Just a few moments with Melania. But she was so sweet to me when I One of the first things that we went to after the administration started was the governor's dinner at the White House. It was a very beautiful dinner with all the governors. And I just had one tiny moment with Melania, and she asked me how I was finding DC and how I was doing with everything. And she said, You should really try to enjoy it. And I took that in because I thought, Yeah, you're right. Because up until that moment, I was thinking, I don't know if I'm going to like this. I don't know if I am ready for this. I don't know. And then when she said that, I thought, Yeah, why don't I try to enjoy it?

Yeah, why not?

And then it, I don't know. It really like, those were the words I needed to hear at that moment.

Have you enjoyed it?

Yeah.

Really?

Not all of it. But I've enjoyed, I enjoy the people that I spend time with in DC. I really like the people that Bobby works with. Yes. I like their spouses. I like them as people, as someone to hang out with and talk to at the dinner party. I really like them.

You had an appearance in the view the other day, which I saw part of it. They immediately started tagging you for your husband because they're feminists. Does that make sense? But They were... The criticism of him, and then to direct it at you, because I've said it eight times, but I really mean it, is insane. But it's all about the vaccines. What is that? Why is it that someone... Because he has said many times, including to me, not against vaccines on principle, but some of these vaccines are clearly dangerous, and they are, and that's proven. And why wouldn't we try to make them safer? Why Why would that be a controversial statement? I'm honestly confused.

So am I. I am honestly confused by that, and I'm confused by people attacking the parents who say, My child is different since they received the vaccine. It's a very strange for other people to say, You are crazy. How dare you say that? That? How dare you blame the vaccine? And these are parents who said, Oh, I'm just telling you my experience. My experience was my child was hitting developmental markers. My child was hitting milestones, and then they got the vaccine and everything changed. Why are we yelling at those parents? That's what I really don't understand either. Why are When did that start?

I don't know anyone like that, just because I shield myself from anyone who would even... It even gives a hint of having those attitudes because I can't deal with it. So I don't know the answer, but you know a lot of these people personally. What do you think the answer is?

There's something about vaccines that they've made People have made very political in a way that's hard to understand because if you're talking about cancer or you're talking about different ways to treat cancer, people don't get upset about it. No, that's right. People don't yell at you about it.

They don't say- You're not taking chemo, just radiation? Damn you.

Right. So there's something about the mindset of people. The mindset of some people is You are putting everybody in danger if you don't get vaccinated. And once again, it goes back to what you said, well, if you have the vaccine, you should feel pretty good that you're not going to get it, because that's why you got the back seat. Right. But- It's like yelling at me for not wearing a seatbelt.

Right. What does that have to do with you?

Right. And somehow it's... I really don't understand it. I don't understand. I don't understand So when people got mad at other people, also women turning on each other, I find motherhood is challenging enough. Parenthood. If another mother is telling me, wow, this is what happened. This was my experience with me and my child. Why would I be judging that person? Because I think she's lying to me. Why would she be lying? Who's lying about this? Why would somebody lie about it? It doesn't make sense to me. No, it doesn't. Nobody's gaining anything by sharing their story. I don't know why they're so mad about vaccines. People are worried that if you question the safety or if you... Like I said on the view, I said, on the I said, can we do better? Can we make them safer so there aren't as many injuries? There are a lot of injuries.

A lot.

Why there's the Vaccine Injury Compensation program that's paid out $5. 4 billion dollars. That's what I told them on The View, and no response. Nobody said anything like, oh, wow. I mean, no. Whoopie asked me if it was just COVID. I said, no, I think it was for all vaccines. But can we just look at that with Now, thinking about it in a political way and say, oh, well, people are being compensated for vaccine injuries. There's a whole service set up for it. Can we just say, can both sides agree? Oh, you're right. Somebody has been injured by it. They proved it in court. So can we start there? It's like you're saying, can we just start at one place where we all agree on something. And then say, Well, can we do a vaccine where less people are injured? Yeah.

Why is that a- Same vaccine, fewer deaths.

Yeah. Is that crazy? It doesn't seem it. Why is that... Why does that make people mad? I don't know. I really don't know.

You really don't.

I really don't.

It does seem... I mean, I'm trying to... I've thought about this for years, ever since your husband blew up this topic. I've been thinking about it many years ago. When you wrote that Rolling Stone piece, 15, 20 years ago. I knew him, and I admired him as a writer. He's a great writer. And in addition to other things. And I watched him just literally end his career and all these friendships. And Bobby Kennedy was like, he's a Kennedy. That's so cool. It went from that to Bobby Kennedy's name may not be spoken because he criticized vaccines. I've been trying to figure out what that's about ever since.

What do you think it's about?

I think there's a spiritual element to it. I think this is a religion. This is not rational. That's the first thing I noticed. Second, this is long-standing, Diego Rivera, the Communist Mexican muralist, drew, painted a fairly famous mural of a child getting vaccines. It looks like the classic Christian Christmas image of Jesus in the manger, but instead instead of a cross, it's vaccines. And that was painted in the '30s. It was like a WPA program or something. You could look it up on the internet. It's really interesting for what it reveals of the mindset around vaccines. But it's like a ritual. This is not... Because, again, it's not a question about what's the most effective oncology, right? It's way deeper and pre-rational. So that's religion. That's not science. That's religion.

Well, it's interesting. When you're talking about it that way, it is interesting because it's probably the the only thing that people are asked to do as a group, regardless of who you are, regardless of what your religion, what your health is. You're asked to take the vaccine, and don't ask questions.

Yes.

So I guess maybe that's where it started, right? They had to convince people that, no, this is for everybody and you can't ask questions. Everybody's doing it. Just everybody's doing it. That's all you need to know.

Well, yeah, for sure. People used to burn widows or whatever. People had all kinds of ugly primitive rituals that they were ultimately talked out of that were once compulsory, which are now reviled. I get it, but this one has been the same for 90 years. There's something piercing the skin, injecting something into somebody. I mean, there's a control element, but there's also a ritualistic component to this.

That's so crazy. It is.

Go look up the Diego Rivera, and I hope I'm not screwing this up, but I don't think that I am mural. I mean, it's wild. He just lays it out there. Like, this is your new religion vaccines. There's the baby Jesus getting needles in him. It's so crazy. Right? I mean, there's like ritual blood letting. I mean, look, I've arrived at this over many years of thinking about it because I can't think of another explanation.

It is really hard. I mean, yeah, don't question authority. Definitely.

And then punish the guy's who questions it?

That part. There is that part. But the other thing, too, that I have a hard time understanding the people that are saying that, vaccines were tested however long ago, 40 years ago, 20 years ago, and they were tested to be fine. Yeah. So stop asking questions about it. There are drugs on the market all the time that are approved. Then 10 years later, 20 years later, you see a lot of people have been injured and they pull the drug Because they're like, this is not working. They used to X-ray women when they were pregnant in the '50s because- They gave them thalidomide. Yeah. Because they thought it was a great new technology to- Nilla wafers were considered a health food when I was a kid because they had weed in them. Because they had weed in them. Remember smoking? Like your parents would be in a car with the windows rolled up and smoking.

A hundred %.

But they didn't know that at the time that they were harmful or causing cancer to the kids in the bag.

No, it's delicious.

And then at some point, there's a stop down. People say, Oh, we just learned that this is that's not good for you. That you shouldn't be taking this, that this drug isn't working. You learn things all the time, and everybody stops down and makes a new choice, right? And says, okay, yeah, I'm going to stop using that. So it happens all the time. So for people to say it can absolutely not happen with vaccines, there's no way. There's no way to make them better or to... Because they're great already. It's so strange.

No, but it's a religious concept. Not one word can be added or deleted. It's perfect. It's holy ritz. It cannot be changed. It came from God himself. These are the tablets. It's right here. I know it's hard to meditate on this.

I know. I'm going to think about this. No, I have never connected.

So I met very few people who've had a life with the trajectory that yours has had. I it's not really an arc. It's more like, as you described, a hair pin turn in this direction. So you grew up in one world and a completely different world, rise to the top of that world, and then all of a sudden, you're in a completely different world. What are the conclusions you draw from this? What have you learned? And it's still ongoing, by the way, so I can't- It's still ongoing.

I don't expect- What's what you say? No. You know what? I've learned a lot of things, of course. I've learned, and I always felt like I knew what really matters. My family has always been the most important thing to me. That's why the best thing about getting married is that you get to pick a family member. It's the only time in your life where you get to pick somebody to be a part of your family. And that's pretty amazing. I learned that that is really the only thing that matters. Yes. It's your family. So for me, I mean, there have been times with Bobby that when I get frustrated and I feel like, I can't believe you said that or said it like that. And I'm like, why would you do that? And it doesn't matter so little in the big scheme of things. Yes. What matters is how you love people. And I think, too, how you receive love. So even some of my friendships that did not survive this, right? It's too emotional It's too emotional for them to be friends with me because of what Bobby does. I learned to... It's that that's okay, and I can still love who they are and what we had together.

I don't have to spend time missing it or being sad or whatever that is. I can step back and say, Oh, that person was the right person at the right time, and I loved what we had.

Yes.

And I'm not angry or I'm sad about it. And at the same time, I just turned 60. And I'm at a place where I really have learned a lot just in terms of learning brand new things in my life that I never thought I would. And it's not... This isn't like we talked about politics. I never set out to, I can't wait to learn a lot about politics. But I did. Even in the election, I learned a lot about how to run a campaign, what it looks like from the inside of a presidential campaign. You learn about press and rumors. If somebody says something enough times, then it becomes the truth to people. So, I learned all of that. And even when Bobby switched to being an independent, just learning every state, you have to have a certain amount of signatures from different people, and you turn them in at different times in the calendar year. So even I'm learning that stuff, which I never wanted to learn, but I know it now. I'm fascinating to me that now being in DC, and now being sitting where I am and seeing what I see and being around the people that I'm around, I can say that the people in the cabinet, people in the administration, really want what's best for this country.

And it may sound silly that I didn't recognize that before because I felt like, well, I'm sure there are people that are in it for themselves and that want... But where I see it, that is not the case. The case is that everybody sits at table and they say, what can we do to make the country better, to work together. And that's interesting to me. And I keep... I'm learning more now about politics, about how things... What has to happen to change a law or to get something done in DC or to make a change in the nation. I'm learning all these big concepts that I otherwise would not have thought about. I find it fascinating. I find the people that I'm sitting next to at dinner fascinating. They're smart, and they have hard jobs, very difficult jobs. Yes. I think a lot of people, you have people maybe in LA that sit around and say, Oh, I could do it so much better. It's like, I don't think so. Otherwise, you'd be doing it.

How long were you in LA?

Over 30. Yeah, over 30 years.

I mean, it just seems to me that given how fast everything is changing, you're so blessed to be in part doing something different, learning new things.

I agree with that. Yeah.

I mean, sometimes what we think are tragedies turn out to be the greatest blessings. I don't know. You're still interested in stuff, which is pretty great at 60.

Yeah. Listen, I have a lot of friends who their kids have grown up and moved out, and now they're bored, and they're trying to figure out how to fill the day.

Yes.

I don't have that.

And the business they were in is dying or changing really fast. Really hard.

Yeah. It's very... The entertainment industry is really a tough place to be in right now. So, yeah, I'm like, I find it fascinating. And maybe because I have been in the entertainment industry. And, I mean, there are a lot of films, TV shows about politics and politicians because it's fascinating. And so we like to watch it. We like to watch it play out on the screen, but then to now be in the middle of it, seeing it, it's pretty great.

I love that. Sheryl Hines, you're a deep person, and I'm grateful that you came.

Thank you, Tucker. I really like talking to you.

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