Transcript of Catherine Fitts: Epstein, CIA Black Budget, the Control Grid, and the Banks’ Role in War New

Katherine Austin-Fitz, thank you for doing this.

Hucker, thank you for doing this.

The first time we did an interview over a year ago, different worlds completely. I remember thinking, wow, I've rarely spoken to anyone who thinks in such big terms. I mean, that as a compliment, I wonder if this is all true. I think time has proven you. We've had a couple of meals in the subsequent months. I just want to say I think you're really wise, and I'm grateful to have you.

I want you to know it was only 10 months ago, but it seems like a long, long time. Is that true? Man.

Time is flying. Yeah, I meet people in airports all the time. We're like, I used to think I was a conspiracy theorist, but now I know. But it's a variety of that. But last time we had lunch, a couple months ago, you were telling me about, and I wish we had this on tape, but we can recreate it here, about the control grid, a concept that you had explained when we last did an interview, and how it was, as you said at lunch, snapping into place. Can you just, for people who haven't seen your previous talk, explain what the control grid is, what it looks like, and what it means.

The control grid is a process or an infrastructure that allows digital technology to be used to assert phenomenal surveillance and control of people. At the very heart of it is what I call programmable money. It's money that is no longer just a currency. It's money that comes with a set of rules that can be surveilled and forced. Imagine back in the pandemic, if I said, Okay, you've got to lock down and your money won't work if you leave your house, You can't buy gas in your car because your money is programmed with AI and software to enforce a whole set of centralized rules. And programmable money allows the bankers who've been running monetary policy to now control fiscal policy and essentially replace legislatures and executive branch by making and enforcing the rules through the money. Now, that requires a large infrastructure of surveillance. You need digital IDs, and then you need the hardware locally and globally to do the surveillance and implementation. For example, if you look at the local hardware, and now people are seeing it. Now that it's material, they're beginning to see it snap into place. I don't know if you know, flock cameras, but there are many communities across the United States that are entering into contracts paid by the taxpayers to put up cameras all around their neighborhood that track license plates and keep that data and share it with a variety of people.

Or the FTC is trying to overrule local controls on cell towers, so they can literally put cell towers every 400 to 700 feet so that they can have the invasive surveillance you need. Or you satellites now that can literally beam in Wi-Fi so that whether you have Wi-Fi in your home or not, they can start to track you. All those systems come put you in what I call the panopticon. We saw in the Middle East with the first war with Iran, we saw 11 leaders out of 12 top leaders in science and government assassinated because they're literally tracking everyone, and they can identify them track them, and then you have invisible weaponry that can then take them out or can identify missile strikes.

May I ask you about, you're talking about the 12-day war against Iran in June of 2025. Correct. We were led to believe, just as newspaper readers or news consumers, that those 11 Iranian officials were targeted with human intelligence, that Israel had spies inside of Iran. But you're saying that was done digitally?

That's probably... I would assume that that's probably true because you always want to get human confirmation of what the systems are telling you. It's always better if you have both. But we are now moving into building out the surveillance systems that can literally track, identify, and integrate with not only our existing weaponry, but ultimately, autonomous weaponry. Anyway, so let me step back. You've You got three parts to the control grid. One is the local hardware and infrastructure, and that includes the data centers. Because if you...

The data? I thought those were for AI.

They are. Because if you look at what it takes to apply the equivalent of a social credit system to people's money. The social credit system I apply to you is different than the one I apply to me. If you look at the data I need to track you and test whether or not you're following the rules I've given you and enforce those rules, it's an explosive amount of data, particularly because you're looking not just at financial control, but spatial control. What is AI good at, Tucker?

Ai is very- Is spatial control, movement control?

Yeah. So turn off the car. So As long as my numassia is trying to kill the kill switch in your car, that's because spatial control means I can turn off your car or I can set it so your money won't work more than a mile from your home or a 15 minutes city. So you literally, you're not to leave your 15 minutes city and your transportation and your money won't work outside of that area. Let me step back. What is AI good at? Ai is very good at tracking things that can be expressed mathematically. Financial transactions and spatial movement can be expressed mathematically. What the AI centers are for, primarily, is to build that digital control grid and to manage that data. Now, it can going to be used for many other purposes, too. It's not just going to be used for control. But to me, that's the primary purpose. If you look at the cameras, if you look at the cell towers, if you look at the satellites, and then the AI, the data centers, those are all component pieces of the local hardware. There are three pillars that I track. One is the programmable money, and that's what we at Solaria are trying to stop.

The second is the digital ID because you need a global... You need ID systems that are interoperable globally, and then the local hardware. Those are the three pillars. What's interesting is there's phenomenal development of all three. We have a commentary at Solari where we track, it's called the Fast Approaching Digital Control Grid. Every week we update all the things that are being done to build those three pillars and have them integrate with each other. Ever since the inauguration, it's been moving very, very quickly. Now, it's both sides of the uniparty. They come at it in different ways and they do different things. But ultimately, what this is doing is this is going to a point where the central bankers, whether they do it with a central bank digital currency or private stable coins and asset tokens, are setting the world up so that they can control your financial transactions, literally in real time, with the equivalent of a social credit system.

I have so many questions. I've probably been in six or seven, eight countries in the last month, and I think in every single country, I had biometrics taken, either fingerprint or facial recognition. What role do biometrics play in the control grid?

That's part of the digital ID system, and that facilitates the surveillance. It's interesting. We do a lot to promote cash because I think there are many things we can do to slow down or stop the digital control system, But one of it is by embracing analog and keeping analog alive. Because to go to a really serious programmable money, you need an all digital financial system. We do a lot with cash. But people will tell you, if you go to Walmart, you leave your phone in the car and you use cash, you come out having made a purchase, and the next thing you know, the next day on your phone, you get a text from the company of the product you bought at Walmart So they were able to identify you. It's because of the biometrics. They have your facial recognition.

I had a crazy experience with cash. I thought of you right before Christmas, I wanted to pay employees a bonus in cash, which you always do. And so I asked my wife to go to the bank. She did Wells Fargo branch, not far from her house. I want to take out this amount, pretty large amount, but not crazy. And they said, No, we can't give you the money. And why? Because we think that you are being being scammed, that there's probably someone outside with a gun demanding that you withdraw cash. She's like, What? No. She called me. Anyway, I finally went into the bank and got upset. It wasn't their fault. They were being told, I think, by federal regulators not to give me cash. I said, I thought the point of a bank was to hold my money, you loan it out of interest. I get less interest from you, so you make the money, but my money is safe, but I get it when I want because I made it at my job. They're like, We're so sorry, we're so sorry, but they wouldn't give me the cash. Took two weeks to get the What is that?

It's called nudging. Do you know what nudging is? No. Oh, there's a whole science of nudging. If you're the central bankers and you want to take cash down to zero, what you do is you create lots of different kinds of rules and regulations that nudge people in that direction. That's one of the things that's happening. You use these things as an excuse. Now, there's something else happening.

That's not my imagination. That's part of a strategy to get me not to use cash.

Part of what was happening was nudging. Now, if you look at the person who implemented that, they're getting a role, they're just doing their job. One of the reasons they're getting the role and one of the things they use to do the nudging with is if you look at the amount of cybercrime and financial fraud that's happening that is causing people to go down and get cash, it's real. The banks are losing a great deal of money on it, and it's a serious problem, particularly because if you look at the technology using it to be implemented, I believe they're using neuro warfare. They get these people very addicted online and they get them doing crazy financial things. I was in the Netherlands. I was trying to wire €5,000 to one of the people who works for me, and my bank stopped it because they felt that I was a victim of a romance crime.

A romance crime.

I said, No, I assure you, this person writes my loving art column. It's not a romance. I mean, there's a romance with art here, but it's not with each other.

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The banks are in a movement for more and more central control. Again, the financial system for 20 plus years has been steadily moving in all different layers, from regulatory to these kinds of things, from a world where the bankers control monetary policy to a world where they control fiscal policy. That's the nudging is all part of moving there.

Can you explain the difference for those of us who are not economically fluent?

Okay. Since 1913, the United States has have a governmental structure where the central bank, the Federal Reserve, which is the Board of Governors in Washington and the 12 central banks, manage monetary policy. They basically, working with the banks, run the financial transactions. The New York Fed runs the governmental accounts. They control the government bank accounts. Their policies of Fed funds, interest rate, and money onto the reserve tracks affects the money supply and basically the money supply and how the money works. It's more complicated than that because they have lots of regulatory functions. But the people vote for their representatives. Whether it's the State House or the Congress, they vote for elected representatives from their jurisdiction and area. Those people fiscal policy, which is what taxes do we collect, what tariffs do we collect, what bonds do we sell and raise money, and how does that money get spent? My representatives, your representatives are determining a fiscal policy and the bankers are determining a monetary policy and it's a balance of power between the people and the bankers. Now, with the digital control grid and programmable money, the bankers can assert control of fiscal policy. They can just decide what the taxes are and take them out of your account, and they can essentially determine the rules of how it all gets spent.

It's a financial coup d'État that over time, they want to assert complete control of fiscal and monetary policy. Essentially, the legislatures will go to being show and tell or go out of business.

We're moving quickly in that direction where the legislatures in every country are becoming less powerful, in many cases, irrelevant.

Here's my theory, though. If you go back to 9/11 and when Wesley Clark said, We're going to invade seven countries in five years, what you were talking about were the countries where those central banks were not on board to do programmable money and their governance structure were not on board with essentially, because of Epstein, I'll call it the Rockefeller Rothschild model, there was an effort to say, Okay, we're going to basically assert control of the central banks in those countries. That's my interpretation. I think one of the reasons we're seeing so much tension around Iran is because Iran right now is the big leakage in the system.

How? Wait, it's not about their nukes?

No. Well, Iran's central bank counts. One of the reasons it counts is because their oil and energy is very important, including for China. That's very important in the BRIC system. What the BRIC system is trying to do is to create independent payment systems. But if you're going to come out with programmable money, with digital IDs that are interoperable globally and programmable money that controls in each jurisdiction, centrally, you can't afford leakage. You've got way too much leakage in the system to proceed with what they're trying to do. Iran and the BRIC nations are a sticking point. Certainly, Iran's oil feeding China gives China greater independence.

You think that one of the motives behind toppling all these governments was the creation of the control grid we're talking about now.

Right. If you go back, so you had the wonderful Richard Warner on your show. Richard has a book called The Princess of the End, which is about the effort to take over the Japanese Central Bank. I think what you're looking at, I think part of the state of play with both Russia and Iran is how are you going to make sure that those central banks are entirely in the system?

Yeah, That was an amazing interview. He told the story about writing this book on the Japanese Central Bank. I can't imagine a more obscure topic from my non-economically-minded standpoint. It'd be like writing a book on postcards from the Falkland Islands. It's like, okay, a book on the Japanese Central Bank. He said, Well, actually, they suppressed it. I couldn't get it published in the United States, and you can't get a copy. That's checkable, so I checked it.

You can't get a copy of that book. It's really hard. I think you can order from its publisher right now. Okay.

But I mean, why would someone try to suppress a book?

Because it shows you the true... It takes you right into the secret governance system, and it shows you the primary mechanism by which they implement policy.

Yeah. Well, it's always the things you're not allowed to say are probably the important things, right? I mean, whenever they penalize you for having a thought, you're probably on the right track.

Well, it's one of the critical train tracks of control. It's what I call the third rail. I used to finance transit systems and train systems. A lot of these systems have two tracks that the wheels go on, and then they have a third rail that the power line runs on, and you get a trend trap that flips over and sucks the energy from the third rail. A lot of the things that really operate the third rail are very invisible. For example, in central banking, to talk about tier one and tier two and tier three capital at the BIS in the banks, there's nothing more boring. It's designed to absolutely-I just fell asleep in the middle of that sentence.

Exactly. Is it boring by design?

The way you're taught to talk about it is boring by design. But it's like the mechanisms of the legal system. If you look at the mechanisms of civil procedure or criminal procedure, and you get into the weeds on it, it can be very boring unless you understand the application, and that can make it very interesting. But the capital, most people don't understand the capital's regulatory system. And yeah, it can get very, very boring.

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Let me describe. Yeah, not at all. It's important to be talking about this now because imagine a tsunami approaching us. There is a tsunami approaching us. Right now, if you look at the traditional financial system, we're talking about hundreds of trillions of dollars, stocks, bonds, global stocks and bonds market. The crypto market or money is issued on a distributed ledger. It's tiny. So maybe it's $4 trillion compared to $250 trillion just counting stocks and bonds. And then we have the currency market, which is bigger. So most people in the traditional financial system look at the distributed ledger system and say, it's tiny, it's tokens. Last Last year, we passed the genius act. Have you heard of the genius act? I have, yeah. Okay.

It was quite a bitter fight over it, too.

There was a bitter fight. The big bitter fight right now is over the Clarity Act. The genius act created a regulatory framework for stablecoins, and I'll explain stablecoins in a second. The Clarity Act was passed in the House last year. It's complement in the Senate. It's a discussion called the Responsible Financial Innovation Act. The final act's name, I'll call it the Clarity Act, but I don't know which it will be. The Senate and the House have not agreed, and that has become a very bitter fight. I can explain what that's about. The reason the genius act and the Clarity Act are very, very important is there has been a push to say, We don't want central bank digital currency because we don't want the central banks putting the banks out business and controlling centrally. What has happened, though, is now they're doing a form of private... Think of it as private CBDC, stable coins and digital assets and tokens that can essentially implement the same social credit and control system, but through private issuers. Let me turn to stablecoins for a second, because the genius act has passed. They're working on regulations that will come out at the end of this year, at the beginning of next year.

If A stablecoin is issued, it's a crypto issued on a distributive ledger. It's basically the money that is received to buy the stablecoin is reinvested in either treasury bills that are 93 days or shorter in maturity or high-quality bank deposits, so cash. Basically, it's 100% collateralized. When you have a stablecoin, it's like having a little treasury bill, a dollar of treasury bill. Think of yourself as using a treasury bill.

It's not so different from US currency.

No, it's certainly in terms of value. The reason you call it a stablecoin is you're hoping, theoretically, a stablecoin could be done on other currencies as well, but you're hoping that a dollar stablecoin will not be volatile in price the way many cryptos are volatile in price. So it's designed so the price is stable. Okay, so one of the hopes and one of the reasons that we're issuing stablecoins is as far current purchases of treasuries diminish, we're hoping that you can put out stablecoins worldwide and attract retail money into the treasury market. So the wholesale market is rejecting you. And so now through the mobile payment systems, you can put out stablecoins.

So it's another way of propping up US debt.

It's another way of preserving US dollar dominance. But the danger, of course, is there are two dangers. One is if everyone in your town in Maine, pulls their money out of the bank and puts it on their mobile payment stablecoin, all the loan market and the credit creation market in your town is going to collapse. Because they're leaving your local economy and going into the treasury market to finance the feds.

So what Amazon did to retailers in towns, stablecoin could do to banks in towns?

To community banks and credit unions. Now, they can also issue stablecoins, but again, that money is going to go into the treasury market rather than multiply on Main Street. There's been a real quiet war over the last 20, 30 years because the federal regulators have pushed the community banks and credit unions to not make loans on Main Street, but put their money in the investment portfolio where they do buy treasuries. This is all part of getting your local economy more and more dependent on federal money.

I'm seeing this. Yes. There are only four trends in the modern world, and this is one of them. Power money, centralized, go to the national capital away from the provinces. It's happening everywhere.

Well, but here's the thing, and this is the little secret to real solutions. If you look at the last 50 years or 70 years since World War II, every effort has been made through taxes or credit or various financial mechanisms to get all the money to go into central and come back down. Now, if you go into most communities, so America's 3,100 counties, most counties, 40 or 50% of the income in that county is coming through. It It comes up to Wall Street or Washington and comes back down. And so you end up with more and more central control. Now, here's the little secret. It's economically insane. If you could do more money going around, you could make the pie much bigger. Well, of course.

Just like power transmission, the longer you have to move power along lines, the more power you lose.

Exactly. And technology should advantage the little guy, not the big guy. So go back to- Can you just pause there?

Thank you for... It just shows how old I am that I know what you're talking about because that was the original promise. It's hard to believe now, but 30 years ago when the internet was being introduced to the public, the idea was this is empowering for the average person.

When that happened, that was when my company... This was the fight I had with the Department of Justice. We build software tools. We had one software tool called Community IPO on a Box to help everybody locally facilitate equity, stock markets for local areas. But we build a software tool called Community Wizard. You could dial in and say, My neighborhood is my county or my zip code or my congressional district. You could map out the sources and uses of all federal credit money in your community. You could get the equivalent of a financial statement for the jurisdictions in which you vote for political representation. You could really hold your congressman accountable because you could see a financial statement for your jurisdiction. The Department of Justice sees our offices, sees the software, put it. It took me six years to get it out from the courts, and when I got it out from the courts, it was missing all the most important pieces.

It's funny they'd want to discourage accountability.

Well, what I discovered when I was in the administration administration was that if the local business people could see how the money works around them, they could get back in the game. We regularly saw, I told you this before, we regularly saw communities where HUD was spending $250 50,000 per unit to build public housing, and $50,000 would buy and rehab a single family foreclosed property in the same four-block area. But it was the same with jobs. We were paying a contractor in Washington, 100, 125 per hour to do something that we could keep local. You didn't need to send it all the way up there. No. So that a big contractor could, corporate contractor could do it. There was a great story during the financial crisis, where a woman lost her job, very responsible, hard working, couldn't find another job, ultimately had to take food stamps, which was a matter of great shame for her. She had a problem with him and called tech support and got a woman in India working for J. P. Morgan Chase, who had at that point 37 of the state food stamp programs they were managing. She said, Wait a minute, I could do this job.

If I was doing this job, I wouldn't need food stamps. Why are we sending it to India with a big markup for a big bank when I could just do this job and then I wouldn't need food stamps?

It's hard not to see malice in there somewhere.

Oh, there's total malice. Here's the thing. If If I have a publicly traded stock and it's trading at a price earnings ratio of 10, just to make it simple. If I make a dollar, my stock goes up $10, right? Okay. Now, if government intervenes to take a million dollars of income that Main Street is making and shift it into a publicly traded stock, that stock will go up $10 million. What's the biggest source of political contributions? Capital gains. The more I shift money out of Main Street into publicly traded stocks, the more I get the pop on the stock and the more investors of real estate capital gains or company enterprise capital gains, the more money they'll give. In Washington, there's this giant sucking sound. Let's go back to the pandemic. Remember the pandemic?

Yeah, vaguely.

You shut down Main Street, which is not publicly traded. And suddenly, all their market share has to go to publicly traded stocks, either online companies or the big box stores. So I'll never forget there's a wonderful moment during the pandemic when Rick Santilli is standing on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange, and he's saying, and Andrew Sorkin is up in the studio, and Santilli says, This makes no sense. I'm going to the mall. All the little companies are closed. Costco's next door, and the parking lot's packed, and Costco's packed. It doesn't make any sense. Why the little guys have to be shut down for the virus? But it's okay next door because the parking lot's packed. People are all congregated in. They're all together. Sorkin says, The virus can't go in Costco. It can't go in the big box stores. That's science.

Well, because Sorkin believes in science.

But here's the thing. If you look at how much money was made by Wall Street, it was a giant sucking sound of market share into publicly traded stocks, and then the capital gains go back around for the political contributions. I told you, I have an online book that explains how this works, which I've tried to publish three times, and each time it's gotten sabotaged the last time they threatened somebody in my family. I backed off and never published. It's online. It's not censored, but I've never put it in hardback, and I'm waiting for everybody to die, and then I'll publish it again. I'll try for the fourth time. But it shows you exactly how the game works on a private prison company that my old firm had financed. I show you, I get out all the SEC documents, and I show you the game and how it works, how it translates into capital gains.

Could you just summarize it really quickly?

Yeah. We started a movement in the early '90s to privatize a portion of the prison system. I remember. It's economically insane.

I think I was for it for the record. I've had so many dumb positions over the years that I think I was for that.

At the time that I wrote the analysis, the best figures I could get from general accounting office was it was costing... The whole criminal justice system was costing 154,000 per person per year. One of the reasons was the construction of all these private facilities This is one of my theories. But what I showed you was the stocks were trading on a per-bed basis. If you could get a law passed that mandated longer sentences, the stocks would go up because you get a bigger PE per bed.

Come on. Yeah.

And literally, what they did was they started the companies, and then they started a program to drop SWAT teams into neighborhoods to literally drop in and round up kids who could be dealing drugs or not. You know who was bringing in the drugs. It wasn't the kids. And literally, they cut off in DC, they cut off the money to the public defender's office so the kids had to all cop, please. And that would stuff the prisons. At the same time, what they did is they created a company at the Department of Justice called Unicor that could market prison labor to corporations for tiny dollars. No, really. It's a slavery system. Obviously. It's a slavery system. The book describes, it's called Dylan Reid and the Aristocracy of Stock Profits, and explains how the whole system works, who made money, how they made money. What's sad about it is my guess from doing that analysis is that many of the people making money on it are the same people who are making money bringing in the drugs. I describe all those things. The power of the book, it took me a year to write it. I was living in Montana, and you couldn't walk in my house.

You could only step on piles of SEC documents. There are literally hundreds of thousands of pages of documentation behind it because I had to prove all the different pieces of the financial ecosystem. We put up all the documentation. It was quite astonishing because it really helped people who had trouble understanding the growing central control. It helped to see that it was very intentional.

The saddest fact of the moment we're living in is that the American dream itself is evaporating for a lot of young people. How do you know that? Because they can't afford to buy homes. Owning property, something that was completely normal. It was America, just a generation ago, is now a dream for so many people. People are using buy now, pay later apps to buy food, dinner on credit. What you're watching is the slow failure of systems that don't work anymore. This isn't nostalgia. Things really are getting worse, and you can feel it. For nearly 80 years, the US dollar sat at the center of our economic system. After World War II, the world trusted the dollar because it trusted the strength and the discipline of American leaders. That trust, sadly, is fading. You can see what central banks are doing right now. Quietly, at historical levels across the world, they are buying gold, not ETFs, but actual gold and putting in an actual vault. That's what China is doing, dumping treasuries, buying gold. When the people closest to the system are hedging against the dollar, you should probably pay attention. They are going to what they've always gone to from the beginning of recorded history, gold.

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What will be the crisis that justifies digital currency?

Let me sit back for a second because what I see is the crisis is only the apex and the third act. To get the crisis working, you have to get thousands of things in place. For example, coming into COVID, I don't think you could have done COVID without, for example, getting federal accounting standards advisory board statement 56 into place in 2018, and then having the central bankers meet and approve the going direct reset.

I'm not familiar with that.

I would be delighted to tell you about that because-Thank you. This is one of those things that sounds very boring. That is like a ten Richter earthquake. For many, many years, there was a group of us who were trying to bring as much transparency to the fact that there was serious criminality going on in the federal accounts and $21 trillion was missing. That was happening because the federal government refused to obey the financial management law. They are required. You're a citizen, you pay your taxes. They're required to give you. You give them your 1040, and they're required to give you back and says, Okay, here's how we spent your money. That's required in the Constitution, the financial management laws. The federal government has said the mid '90s been in complete violation of those laws. There was a lot of pressure that was brought to bear when Dr. Mark Skidmore, with Solari, published his report on the 21 trillion missing. And so pressure, pressure, pressure. The DOD keeps saying, We can't pass an audit. We're not going to pass an audit. And then 2018, Remember the Kavanaugh hearings? Very well. Okay. Everybody was very busy watching the Kavanaugh hearings.

The federal government, the House, the Senate, and the White House, altogether, October 2018, publicly established an administrative policy called FASBI 56 that basically said in violation of the Constitution, the financial management laws and the financial management regulations, that they could set up a secret group of people by secret process and pull things out of the government's financial statements and keep them secret, not just for the 24 covered agencies, but for 150 plus related governmental entities. When you take in the national security and classification laws, that means also that the big banks and contractors working for the federal government can do the same.

That's Deloitte and J. P. Morgan, too.

What that means is basically the entire large cap stock and bond market in the United States is secret. The disclosure is meaningless. It doesn't mean anything. If you go to Solari, we have a missing money section, and we have extensive, not only descriptions of FASBI 56, but what it means to investors.

On what grounds could the federal government declare private businesses, the whole of itself, all off limits to disclosure?

They have no legal basis because this is in violation of the Constitution, the financial management laws, and the financial management regulations. We have a section at Missing Money with seven briefing papers. It took me two years working with our attorneys to do it that describe all the financial management laws of the United States so that you can see. Luckily, one of the interesting things that happened when FASBI 56 passed is Matt Taibi picked up on it and wrote an article about it. It's funny, he emailed me, he said, Okay, I got briefing papers, thank God. Because if you're someone like Matt Taibi, it's very hard to sit down and learn the financial management laws of the United States. That's why we did the briefing papers so that any reporter could get into this and master it in a reasonable period of time.

Was this just a regulation?

Was this voted on? This is administrative policy. In law, there's the Constitution, there's the financial management laws, there's the regulation, and then there's the administrative policy. So This is the total inversion. This is an administrative policy saying we can break the Constitution, the financial management laws, and the regulations by administrative policy. But the House, the Senate, and the White House all agreed. So it was a joint, and they tried to sneak it through. I was very lucky because there was a guy at the time who worked for the American Federation of Scientists who literally read the federal register. I had signed up for his newsletter because I didn't want to, but I trusted him to do it. He would keep an eye on the black budget issues. A guy named Steve Aftergood, very good. In his newsletter, he read it and he understood what it meant because it's so boring. Nobody would understand.

That's exactly right. What's not boring, and I'm sorry to keep interrupting you, but I don't want anything to fall through the cracks, the black budget issues. What is the black budget and what was he looking at and why should we care?

We have an overt economy. We have a the covert economy. The covert economy is driven by a series of pools of money and cash flows. The first one, Joseph Farrell calls it the hidden system of finance. The first one started with all the seizures during the wars. During World War II, a great amount of assets were seized, and that created a pool of money that was available for covert operations. There's a wonderful story in Christopher Simpson's first book about how the money they had seized had been moved into the Exchange Stabilization Fund, which is the mother of all slush funds that's managed by the New York Fed for the Secretary of Treasury. So the money had been moved in. The Dulles brothers are sitting at Sullivan and Cromwell, and they use that money to rig the '48 elections in Europe at the request of the Vatican. Anyway, so This is the... We have this seizure pool. Then what happened, we passed the National Security Act in '47, and then the '49, we passed the CIA Act, which was very fractious It literally took assassinating Forrestal to get that done.

Who was thrown out of a window.

Yeah.

That's a- At the Bethesda Naval Hospital. He'd been the Secretary of War.

He was very opposed to the creation of the Black budget and the creation of Israel.

Who killed him? Why don't people understand that the defense secretary, Secretary of War, was murdered? I don't think one in 100 people know that.

He was a Dylan Reid partner, so I knew that because I used to stare at his painting in the partner's boardroom or dining room, and they would always train you by telling you, If you're not careful in Washington, this- It's funny.

There are two books that I have read on it, both Both of which cost like 100 bucks a piece on eBay because it's just- Have you read David Martin's book? I don't know. I have two. They're in my office.

I read them both. You want to read David Martin. We have a great interview with Dave Martin. Let me finish telling you- Both were written in the '60s.

But really quickly, I mean, his murder- His murder was part of a deal to get the 49 Act passed, is my theory.

Okay. And to the creation of Israel. It was both the Black Budget and Israel that were, and they needed to get him out of the way. We have a big interview on it, Salari, and I've looked very into it very deeply. I was very interested in Forrestal. Anyway, but the '49 Act was the CIA Act. You have the National Security Act, 47, the CIA Act. What the CIA Act authorized was the ability to appropriate money to different agencies and then claw it back secretly to a black budget. So Now we have the hidden system of finance with the pools of Sees money, and we add to that a layer of money that can be appropriated and clawed and used secretly, only subject to very limited oversight by a committee in Congress. The appropriations committees wouldn't see that money, only this one committee that oversaw the Black budget. If you look at those two pools, the next step happened in '81 when Bush comes in. Bush comes in as vice president under Reagan, and his deal with the Reagan folks during the campaign was, because he'd run the CIA, he'll run intelligence and enforcement. The Bushies were very, very good at the nuts and bolts of the mechanics of government and the legal system and money.

He got an executive order done that said, essentially, you can use this secret money, the black budget money, and you can use it to hire corporate contractors who can now do highly classified projects. Now, let me explain what this means as a financial matter. We were talking about stock market going up. You can now take the most secret, powerful technology in the world and pay corporations to learn and end up owning that technology secretly in a way that drives their stock to the moon. Now you've connected the US Treasury market directly like a pipe into companies and drive their stock up almost to an infinite amount. As a financial mechanism, it's One of the most powerful things that ever happened in our history.

What %... So we have the federal budget, which we can look up online.

But after Fatsby 56, it's totally meaningless.

And Okay, so it's meaningless because we don't know where the money is actually going. Is that why?

No, because the most important piece is the money. We don't know what's been taken out. We don't know what's been made secret. You can see what's there, and you can see, for example, I can see by looking at the HHS budget, how much we're spending to poison America. I can see a lot. A lot. Yeah. No, it's huge. We're bankrupt country, poisoning America. But I don't know what's not there. In other words, a secret group of people by a secret process have taken out whatever they want, and I don't know what they've taken out. I don't know. It doesn't mean anything to me.

I mean, would it be possible to audit the federal budget?

You would have to audit the bank statements. You would have to audit... People say, We want to audit the Fed. No, you want to audit the federal accounts at the New York Fed, and you want to audit the Exchange Stabilization Fund at the New York Fed. That's what you want to audit. What you want to find out is, where did the 21 trillion go or come in. All the The federal government has refused to balance its account since the mid '90s. We know that there are inexplicable, undocumentable adjustments of enormous amounts. The only way you can figure out what happened is to go into those bank accounts and figure out what came in and what went out and to actually map out the actual cash. You have to do it not just in the... The New York Fed is depository for the US government, so you have to do it in those accounts, but you also have to look at the borrowing accounts and the slush fund accounts, which is the exchange stabilizations.

Has anyone attempted to do any of that?

So, Rand Paul and his father and congressman Massey I've talked about auditing the accounts. It's funny because Massey and I were at a great conference once, and he was talking about shutting down the Fed, and I kept saying, No, you don't shut it down until you get the 21 trillion back. Otherwise, they get to keep the 21 trillion. Thomas was up giving a wonderful speech, and he said, I think we should shut down the Fed. Then he looked at me and he said, After we get Catherine's money back.

Can I ask just quick about Massey? He's obviously got into a very personal altercation with the President, ongoing. There's the question of APAC. He was one of the few people who didn't take APAC money. But the all-out effort to destroy him, I just feel like there's something more than just getting in a tiff with Trump for not taking APAC money.

Here's what's at the heart of Massey's fight. Are we going to be run by the rule of law? Or are we going to be run by a secret governance system, essentially consolidating things into what I would call the mega rich who are above the law? This is fundamentally about, is there going to be the rule of law or not? The thing I love about Massey, he's an engineer. If you talk with him or listen to him about a wide range of subjects, starting with food and agriculture, he is ruthlessly focused on what is productive, on what makes economic sense. What he knows is that the centralization of control is destroying productivity. It's destroying wealth. He knows that whether it's family wealth or community wealth, you cannot have a civilization. You cannot have a civilization if you have a society that is this enormously destructive of individual sovereignty and individual and family wealth. He's literally, if you look in all these different areas, he's just constantly moving out, trying to do what makes sense. His He's understanding because he's been an entrepreneur and a small businessman and a farmer and a rancher, he understands the economics bottom up.

One of my favorite Thomas Massey stories I heard on your show, which was an amazing interview. I always make young people watch at least the second half of your interview with Massey. The off-grid part. Yeah, when he's talking about how he figures he's the county mayor, essentially, and he buss the prisoners out of the jail to help them install a new hot water heater because they can't afford to buy. They have to buy a used one. They can't afford to buy a new one. Exactly. Okay, so that's exactly the story. That's a building well story, right? Yeah.

Yeah, what's happened is so sad. It's hard to believe. It's one of the finest people I've ever met in Washington, and it's just gone in this direction. That's not helping anybody.

You think?

Well, I tend to have a pretty shallow analysis. When I say it's helping no one, I'm not confident it's helping no one.

But here's the thing. Our number one problem is the secret governance system. I agree with that. He's going right at the heart of the issue, not because he wanted to, but because he's trying to do all these fundamentally productive things in five or 10 different areas.

None of us wanted any of these fights, actually. I think it's fair to say he didn't really want these fights either.

Right. Well, here's the thing. If suddenly tomorrow, I was in charge. I was the dictator in charge. First thing I do is I'd outlaw dual citizenship in an important governmental position. Obviously. Right. That goes to the heart of the secret governance system and backdoor control.

How does dual citizenship go to the heart of secret governance?

Because the secret governance system controls through allowing people to operate above the law or have different incentives that put them outside of the system. I think the dual citizenship is part of that process.

At the most obvious level, you can be indicted for a crime in the United States and flee to the other country's passport you hold.

Right. Look at the sex offenders who literally have done terrible things with children in this country who've fled to Israel and are protected.

Dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of them. Not just a few. We had a high-profile example of this recently, but it's been going on a really long time. That's the most shocking way. Wait, how do you get to try to molest a child and then flee to our closest ally stay safe. But you're saying that this same principle applies to financial crimes and governance.

I suspect one of the things I've never known is what is the full benefits of dual citizenship. But I suspect there are financial benefits as well.

Tell me what that means.

It could mean many things. It could be the ability to keep money in Israel or through Israel off books, not subject to taxes. It could mean many things. It could just mean financial rewards that are that are completely on the face of it legal. But I'll give you an example. We've just seen two arrests in the UK coming out of the Epstein files, not for anything to do with sex, but the fact that they had compromised state secrets. But presumably, they did that in exchange for various benefits of being part of the network.

What is the network?

In that case, well, I would call it the Epstein network, but I'd really call it the Rothschild Network.

So big picture, the takeaway from my perspective from the Epstein cursory reading of 2 million pages is that There's a government or a governance structure above governments.

So I would say that there are investment networks. If you look at what Epstein... If you come to Solaria, we have a commentary I've called Was Jeffrey Epstein the Father of Programmable Money? Which I believe the answer is yes, or certainly one of them. If you read, we're pointing to a Substack series written by a guy who writes anonymously under the name ESC, as in escape, ESC. It's a marvelous thing, very well documented back to the Epstein files that we've now received, describing how Epstein, who I believe was laundering money, was allocating that money to all these different projects that helped develop crypto and programmable money. But what he describes in the process of one of those substacks is traditionally, historically, for the last 150 years, how the Rothschild networks, and I would include Rockefell and Rothschild as a central banking network together, how they operate, both the family and then people who are, S calls them the switchboard, the agents who coordinate between the different houses and the network. In one sense, it's a very informal network, but because it has the blessing of the central bankers, it receives a lot of protection from the intelligence agencies.

It's a networking function. He does a very good job of describing how it operates as a functional matter. Everything he writes is exactly what I saw in Washington and Wall Street. You have a of equity pools in and around the central banks that are engaged in trying to build forward in a variety of ways and position money and manage risk. They are literally increasingly above the law.

They don't seem directly tied to any particular country. They're above countries.

Yeah. They can operate within a country sphere, but Epstein was basically global. If you look at the programmable money and what he was doing to build programmable money, that required operation in both Europe, the United States, and around the world.

Can I ask you a question that occurs? China's economy is now bigger than the United States. Clearly, China is going to be, at some point, likely the dominant world power.

I don't necessarily You don't? No. Okay.

Well, the nature of the Chinese government and civilizations seem to make it impervious to this stuff. China is an ethnostate, a Han Chinese ethnostate. I don't think they're going to be doing a lot of dual citizenship type stuff in China. No. I don't believe the Chinese government is going to allow its authority to be challenged by international pools of capital, at least in the east, because it's going to control the east, right, I think. China is like a roadblock to these forces.

The question is, China was developed by Europe and US capital. The question is, what obligations does China have to European and US capital? I don't know the answer. China's strength The length is, if you look at what they're doing with technology, their innovation and speed is astonishing and very, very impressive, and it's racing by the United States right now. If you look at their demographic issues They have very serious demographic issues, and they have a very serious real estate crisis to be managed that has profound implications with the demographic problem because a A lot of the retirement saving was put in real estate, and now that real estate is down and they have an aging population, they've got some real issues. They have a lot to manage, and a lot of how they do depends on how successful their Silk Road investments work out for them. But I'm not convinced that they necessarily have to end up as the dominant world power. They've worked very hard for the last 10 to 15 years to make their currency acceptable as one of the basket of reserve currencies. And yet, if you look at how much the market share, it's limited.

I think one reason is the distrust of the Chinese is extraordinary because they are deeply, deeply committed to the superiority of the Han people. If you look at different experiences people have had with the Chinese, I think they have a real challenge to build trust. Now, the US was able to build that trust. Now we're blowing it. The question is, how fast can they build it versus how fast are we going to blow it?

I want to get back to programmable digital currency really quick. How far are we from universal adoption in the West? When and if that comes, what will it mean for the average person?

Okay, so let's go back to the Clarity Act. So stable coins are trading the treasury bills. I think treasury's hope is that they can attract several billion, anywhere from 4 to $10 billion into the treasury market with this mechanism by offering it globally. If it's very successful at a retail level, it's going to pull a lot of money out of local banking systems all over the world.

What's the advantage to using a stablecoin?

I can't. Stablecoin proponents will say that it lowers transaction fees, which will probably be true internationally. But frankly, I can't think of one reason why I would ever. I have no intention of using any of them. So the last thing I want- You're against it philosophically and for the reasons you've articulated.

But it's like Amazon. Amazon is obviously bad, but everyone uses it because they're clear benefits. It's It's cheap, it's fast. Are there clear benefits to the consumer in stablecoin?

What will really come down is if you want to use a system on your mobile payment phone, which will be better, Venmo or the stablecoin. It It depends. A lot of that depends on what comes out in the negotiation next, and I'll get to that in a second. If the fintech firms can offer rewards and interest, then they can make it very attractive to use a stablecoin. But it's not clear how that's going to sort out.

Sounds like the US government needs the stablecoin in order to keep treasuries selling.

If you look at how much they say they're hoping to get, it's not going to make the big difference. Now, let's talk about asset tokens because that's where the big float is going to come. The Clarity Act is what is creating the... As the genius act created the framework for stablecoins, the Clarity Act and its Senate version is creating the framework for digital assets and digital tokens. Now, Larry Fink and BlackRock have said they're planning on trading all stocks and bonds using tokens or digital assets. They have not been clear operationally exactly really how this is going to work. But what it means is this is going to be potentially 100, 200, 300 trillion dollar market if they do it. What that means is they want to be able to trade all financial assets worldwide on a distributive ledger that can be turned into programmable money. Now, if you talk to the people who are issuing stablecoins now or are working on the Clarity Act, they say, Oh, we would never do that. That's CBDC. But in fact, if you look at the stablecoin bill, the genius act, it is set up, and we have a big article about this on Solari, it is set up so that all stablecoin issuers have to plug into the treasury's pipe where the treasury applies its know your customer, money laundering, and sanctions.

If you look at that pipe, that pipe can be integrated with the full social credit system. Whereas CBDC applies the rules through the central bank, the stablecoins apply rules through the treasury. If we are working with states, Salari has model legislation on stopping programmable money from being misused. What we are saying to the states is, look, before the horse leaves the barn, you have to put the bridal and the saddle on the horse. States can outlaw this, and we're trying to get the states to make sure because treasury is saying, Oh, we would never do that, or the stable companies are saying, Oh, we would never do that. We're saying, If you would never do that, you don't mind if we pass a law that says you can't do that, right?

Do they mind?

They don't seem to be enthusiastic about it. One of the interesting things is the Clarity Act has a provision that outlaws Central Bank Digital Currency. It's been thrown out of the Senate version. Apparently, they want to reserve the right of the Central Bank to do that. Apparently, congressmen have said that both in the NDAA and another piece of legislation, the Speaker Johnson has stopped their amendments to stop Central Bank Digital Currency. They said he promised them that he would outlaw it. The President had an executive order. They believe they were promised that it would be turned into law. Johnson is blocked at both times. I'm deeply suspicious because if you look at what you can do with stable coins and digital tokens and digital assets, you can implement all programmable money. But if you leave the authority open to do CBDC, at some point the central banks can come along once the system has gotten going. My attitude is, look, if you guys say you're not going to do this, we can outlaw it now. Again, put the bridal and the saddle on the horse before you leave the barn. If you end up with $250 trillion outstanding and you haven't put the bridal and saddle on, you got a problem.

What would be the effect if we wind up with digital programmable currency?

If we wind up with a 100% digital system, no cash, no paper money.

We're moving there fast.

We're moving there, although we're trying to slow it down. Remember, if millions of Americans start using cash in size, it can absolutely revolutionize what happens. I recommend it. But if we move there, Then if I want you to not be able to leave your home, your money won't work if you leave your home. If I want you to only be able to eat certain foods. If I want you to be able to eat foods made with insects and not be able to buy real meat, your money won't work to buy real meat. If I want you to take a vaccine a month, and I mandate vaccines for you and your family, if you don't, I'll turn off your money. I have complete control of your food, your health care, your spatial travel, everything. So you are no longer in a democracy or a democratic Republic. You are in a slavery system. If I want your kids to leave their home and go to a boarding school where I control their education, if you don't agree, I turn off your money.

Can I just ask the dumbest question? Why would anybody in authority want that level of control? What's the impulse there? Why would you want to do that to people?

With that control, I can bring out phenomenally powerful technology without worrying about it being weaponized. I can bring out breakthrough energy technology and not worry that I can't control how it gets used. I can manage a large a large population in a world where technology is changing without losing control. A small group of people can control the many. Also, if I believe that with life science, I can live forever or for much longer lifetimes, I can either depopulate or control people who are angry that I'm living to be 145 and they're not. I can basically keep them in check, even though... The mega-rich can live a very different, luxurious life and control or shrink the rest of the population without fear because they have complete control.

Bottom line, in a time of radical technological change, which we're living through right now, the obvious, the first result is societal chaos and revolutions and wars, and that's why I got the Bolsheviks, et cetera, et cetera. The people pushing this technological change or watching it from positions of authority know this, and so the control grid would allow the transition to whatever this technological future is without the downside of a Bolshevak revolution.

In my experience, the people who run the financial system are first and foremost risk managers. They don't think in terms of making money, they print money out of thin air. But they're very deeply careful about at risk, and they're very afraid of the guillotine. They're very afraid of the crowd.

They should be.

They should be. But it's hard. It's hard to manage people. If you look at coming into the development of digital technology and globalization, they had two choices. They could use this technology to build something that allowed explosive new decentralized wealth to be created, at which point, how do they make sure they stay in control, especially because you have so much going on that's secret. How do you stay in control? Can you create a bottom-up structure that will behave responsibly? The hard part of behaving responsibly is you, as a manager of society, have to turn the aircraft carrier before you hit the iceberg. You don't trust the crowd to care until you hit the iceberg, and then it's too late. So you decide, Okay, we need a meritocracy. We can't trust the people. Now, I disagree with that. But so that was the model I was working on when I was making all this software. So I was saying, We can have a bottom-up structure that does the risk management but builds the explosive wealth, and it can work. But then you don't have an Uber class. No, you don't. But I think they decided, Okay, the only way we find managing the general population very frustrating, and it's back to the red button story, we find them very hypocritical and irresponsible and frustrating.

We are very frustrated. We are just going to go to complete control. They had to choose one or the other. And so they chose complete control. The problem is once you get into complete control, you get an Uber class of people who literally think of themselves as a different species.

Yeah, and they may be, actually. Sorry, excuse me. I have my suspicions, partly confirmed. But anyway, but you're absolutely right. The attitudes change when you go from being an egalitarian society, or at least a society that sees egalitarianism as the goal of in society to something else, then the attitudes of the people in charge become so bad. I see it.

Well, but here's what's interesting, because I have had a very unique life. I've had the privilege of living at the top, in the middle and the bottom. What's amazing when you go back and forth between these different groups, the people at the top have no clue why the people at the bottom are behaving the way they behave. It's just the ignorance between the different groups is unbelievable.

It's funny. I've spent my whole life in that group, but with sojourns into other groups. The people at the top, especially now more than ever, believe that all criticism of them is hate It's just it's unreasonable. It's just fundamentally unreasonable. They hate us because they always hate us because they're hateful people. That hate is based basically on envy because we're so great, we're so successful, we're so smart that successful people are always hated because of their success.

You know what's funny about that?

It's like those divorces you see where one person is totally convinced it's 100% the other person's fault. You're like, no, it's a marriage. It's both your fault.

Well, but here's what's funny because I live in the United States. I live in Hickory Valley, Tennessee. I will tell you, I've said many times, if I have to go down the river, I want to go with people from Hickory Valley, Tennessee, instead of-Of course, I agree. There's a whole world of people who've got 180 IQ in Silicon Valley, and they are stupid as a tack because they float on it on rigged black budget and federal government money. They have no insight into fundamental economics. That's why I love Massey, because Massey understands bottom-up economics. We have such a huge... We have cycled brilliant people through universities and put them into places where they are so divorced from fundamental economics or the math of time and money because they are floating on a sea of Black budget and government money.

I completely agree. It does have a corrosive effect on that class. Then it reaches its ugliest conclusion with Epstein, who like, in addition to everything else, is dumb. I read Ebs or illiterate, certainly illiterate. I read his emails and I'm like, this guy, I wouldn't hire someone like that under any circumstances. These are the people are telling us they're geniuses and we're mad at them because they're so smart. I don't think so.

Well, but I think they think... Here's the thing. They think that many people are stupid because they let them get away with it. There hasn't been the pushback. The more we allow it to go on, the less they respect. Now, I'll tell you something. What is that?

It's such a deep point what you just said.

There was a magical moment when Pam Bondi was testifying, the attorney general was testifying on Epstein, and she said, We should be talking about the Dow being over 50,000.

Let me correct you. She said, Over $50,000.

Yeah.

What does that mean, the Dow at $50,000?

What she meant was, I don't know if you remember.

But it means she doesn't know what the Dow is, right? I mean, it's not $50,000, is it?

Right. I'd forgotten that she said dollars. But here's what was magical about that. Do you remember the red button story I told you about? Yes. Yeah. Okay. She was basically saying, as long as we keep your 401(k)s up, we can do all this stuff, and it's okay with you because historically, that is the truth. God bless her.

The problem is, no, I'm not. I feel sad for Pam Bundy. I don't think she's thriving. I don't think she's happy. No. I'm not guessing. But live by the Dow, die by the Dow. I mean, so if that's the If that's the measure, if all things are okay in a bull market, then what is a bear market? What does that suggest? Do you know what I mean?

Right. But here's the message of what she brought up, if people will allow you to poison and abuse and rape their children in exchange for keeping their 401(k)s up, you have no reason to respect them. I agree.

I don't respect them. I'll say that. I I feel the same way.

In that sense, we all got ourselves into this mess together.

I totally agree with that. I completely agree. I think that about China. I think that about Epstein. There's a lot of hate toward this or that group. It's like, no, it's like a marriage. We're all implicated in this.

Here's the most frightening thing that I find, because it's one thing to be in your town and make a mess. It's another thing to make a mess and not notice that the enemy is at the gate.

That's right.

If you look at how we've allowed ourselves to fall behind in technology and in national security and in all the areas that matter to be strong on the outside, we've put ourselves... It's one thing to have a corrupt leadership. It's another thing to have a corrupt incompetent leadership. What I would say is, are leadership has not done... If you disrespect the and you say, Okay, I want to be the elite and have total control, well, then you need to be competent at your job, right? And they're not.

The question is why. I vehemently agree with you. I gave this speech at dinner the other night to a bunch of people. Every society in history is run by a tiny elite Often they're foreigners, by the way. That's true now in many different countries. I mean, El Salvador is run by a Palestinian. Peru was run by a Japanese guy. I mean, that's not uncommon. There's always a brahman class, always. I'm not mad about any of that, actually. What makes the West so different, the English-speaking countries, is that their populations are all dying. It does seem like it's more than incompetence. It seems like hate to me, at least as measured by its results. Right.

There is definitely a targeting and a destruction of that.

That's the way it seems to me. It's like, okay, so you're in charge. We make a bunch of money. You get the most of it because you're in charge. That's corrupt, yes, but it's also just the rule. I can live with that. But if you're trying to kill me, even as you're extracting the fruit of my toil, then it's like, no, this is an undeclared war against me. That's what I perceive.

That war is on. But if you look at who's implementing that war, they don't have a culture, an ethic, or a Mandarin class that can go the distance.

I agree with that strongly. Can you flush it out a little bit? Yes. That ruling class isn't designed designed to survive and thrive. Is that what you're saying?

They're going to fail. I'm sure they're going to fail. Now, I don't underestimate the damage they can do before they fail. But one thing I will say about China, if there's an argument for China's success, it is because it has a Mandarin class and it has a tradition of hundreds of years of that Mandarin class, and that's what you need. The reason I left Washington in 1998 and I said, I'm out, these guys are going to fail, is whether it's the group destroying our equivalent of the Mandarin class or the Mandarin class itself, they did not have a culture, an ethic, a vision that could go the distance. They weren't good to build an advanced civilization. They didn't have what it took.

What an interesting observation. What does a successful ruling class have? What is the culture that we don't have, that China does?

It has a culture. It has a commitment to the long term. So It has a long term arc and it has the discipline to achieve that by making each individual sovereign with integrity, but disciplined to the vision and the order. It doesn't let the power go to its head. I'll never forget when I first went to Washington, I had been trained my whole life to deal with massive amounts of financial power without letting it go to my head. You got to Washington and you could look around the room and you could see the people who also had that training. They knew this was not their money or their credit. It belonged to the country fiduciary, and they were there as a fiduciary for a temporary period of time to manage it. They took the time to understand the laws and the rules and to collaborate with other people to do so. You got other people who were there, didn't have that background or training, and suddenly, it's my money, it's my portfolio, it goes to their head and they literally, they get drunk on power and they can't handle it. It's like looking at electrical system that can't handle that voltage.

And they melt down.

It burns the house down.

It burns the house down. And what you had, you've gone through a process in Washington where I saw all the people who had been trained the way I had been trained, who got pushed out because they wouldn't break the law and they wouldn't do stupid things. They got pushed out and you just got, yes men, yes men, yes men. Now you've got something that has no... It doesn't have a culture that can handle the voltage.

I feel like you see this even now. I noticed this during the trans thing. I felt like our leaders were pushing the transgender lunacy on everybody. But then I noticed that their own children, probably in higher proportion, were also falling prey to it. Same with drugs. They push drugs in the population, but their kids OD, too. It's like, they believe these lies. It's not just an effort to genocide the population, which it is as well.

Because you're not talking about the top guys. You're talking about the middle, the implementers. So, yeah, they're in the trans, too. Everybody Nobody's thinking they're a genius because they're- Where does this go over the next 10 years? You know something? We are in a very interesting position. I said it to the Solari team at the beginning of the year. Our motto for this year is Rock and Roll because the disruption is not only so chaotic and unpredictable, it's impossible to predict it because when you have... If you go back and you look at when information technology technology, innovates dramatically, like the telephone or the telegraph, what happens is you not only dramatically improve or speed up the innovation in each area, but the connections and integration between areas in ways that it's beyond our- You couldn't anticipate. You can't anticipate. You can't predict it. If you look at this speed of change, but I think if you look at every group I watch, geopolitically or financially, events are going to outrun us all, and they're going to surprise us all. We're going into an out-of-control situation. Now, the people who run, in my experience, the people who run the financial system always have a plan B, C, D, and have thought things ahead.

How they're going to manage this? I don't know.

How does the average person respond to it?

With faith.

With faith? Faith in?

Faith. I believe, so I told you I was going to give you some homework. I welcome it. Here's my favorite new book. We're just about to publish an amazing interview with the author. It's called A New Science of Heaven by Robert Temple.

Okay.

It's about plasma. Our annual wrap up is, and we'll send you a copy, is on plasma. I'm writing it down. Okay, now 99% of the universe is made up of plasma. If you go back- I'll confess I have no idea what plasma is. Don't ask me to explain it.

It's about 90% of the universe. 99.

99% of the universe. 99%. If you go back and listen to People like David Bohm, the great physicist, they would intimate this. But Temple, Dr. Robert Temple has now written a book that really goes through all the science of it. What Temple says is that plasma is alive and intelligent. Okay, which brings all new meaning to the notion of he lives. What he's saying is the universe is alive and intelligent. Now, throughout my history, and it's clear- I feel that, don't you? It is true. I'm sure it's true. The universe is alive. The universe is intelligent. Whether it's the plants, the animals, the people, we share intelligence, and it's not through our brain. It's through our whole body, through our energy, everything. Anyway, but the new science of heaven is really about plasma and how it's alive and intelligent. Now, what I'm going to tell you, I don't care how much programmable money you have, how many biometrics you have, how many digital IDs you have, how many drones. Dod is going to buy a million drones a year, how many drones a year? How many drones you have flying overhead. I don't care. There's no way you can control the entire universe.

Do you know what I mean? If you understand what Temple and Bohm and these guys are saying how the universe works, it's out of control. Now, what you can do is you can interact with it with love and intention and integrity, but it's out of control. I absolutely believe that. That's why I think this whole digital control model is going to fail. I just want to make sure.

You're describing the Tower of Babel. You're describing the limits of human power and foresight.

And technology. If you understand life, the whole thing is nuts. Now, if you look at the leadership, I can absolutely, because they're hypermaterialists, I can absolutely believe that they would think they can control it. I can understand as risk managers why you might want to.

What's a hypermaterialist?

A hypermaterialist is somebody... If you and I were going to make a taxonomy of all knowledge in our world, there is knowledge that relates to things that we can So this table or this wall or this painting, we can see it. It's concrete. So there's a material world, but then there's a whole world that's invisible either because it's spiritual or it may be material But it's like the WiFi in the room. We can't see it. So there's a whole part of our reality, whether it's what I call the morphogenic field, so shared intelligence or your energetic body or my energetic body or the WiFi in the room, whether it's material or spiritual, there's a whole world that's invisible. What you see in the American culture in my lifetime is people become more and more focused on what they can see that's material. The only invisible thing they relate to is money. Money is an invisible. Finance is an invisible.

Money is their God.

Only a hyper material could allow money to become their God, because if you understand- But if it's the only invisible thing you believe in, it's your God. But they don't know. They literally don't know how intelligence works and how power works in the universe. They are completely ignorant of the real power lines because they can't see the invisible. It's phenomenal. It's like walking around in a... Imagine an orchestra trying to play music and everybody's in the dark and nobody can see the score. That's why it sounds like that.

That's why it's so discordant.

Yeah, it's just completely... It's like stop it with the cattle drum.

It's time for the strings.

We're very excited because we're doing this program called the Young Builders. It's one of the reasons I'm in Florida. One of our challenges is, can we help this group of young people take to get a good enough map of both the visible and the invisible so that they have a balanced map and can live a balanced life and access the power to be accessed from really understanding and seeing the invisible and knowing that it's very real and not falling prey to being a hypermaterialist.

What are the power lines you just described?

Our freedom comes to us by divine authority. If you look at what One of my favorite scriptures in the Bible is the prayers of a righteous man availeth much. One of the things I've learned in my life is that... I was an investment advisor, and all my clients would show up and say, We want you to help us use our money to keep them safe. What I would tell you is in this environment with this change, you can only be safe if you have spiritual protection, if you have spiritual intelligence, if you have spiritual authority, and if you can relate with other people in a way that you can build relationships of trust, and that integrity and trust is invisible. But if you look at what can endure during periods like this. That's what endures. That's what you can't. Corinthians says faith, hope, and charity. Those are the things that endure that you can't lose, and they're real. It just takes many years of living and living around people who do it to see that it's real. I know you know what I mean by this.

I know exactly what you mean, and I agree so vehemently. I wish I was as articulate as you were.

Well, but I literally had experiences where I was going to be dead in five seconds, and a miracle happened, and it saved me. I used to always say I had one amazing deposition where I had a major spiritual protection and experience. It was one of the most amazing experiences of my life. It's happened on several occasions. I said to... I call the people who... I'm assuming it's angels or guardians or whatever you want to call it. I said, I call them the guys with the blue light. I said, Don't worry about protecting yourself against the bad guys. Worry about getting in good with the guys with the blue light. Yes. Yeah. If you just... There's not enough time to do all that risk management against the bad guys. If you just focus your energy on getting in good with the good guys, you will get protected.

I think this is like the gospel, basically. Yeah.

When the litigation began, I took a full one-year Bible course, which was one of the most amazing courses I ever took in my life because the teachers were fantastic. It was riveting. It was on Monday night after work. When I first got there, there were 200 people, and I thought, this is never going to last. Nobody in Washington is going to show up on Monday night again and again during the winter. Every week, it got bigger. The class grew because the teaching was so amazing. But it really is all in the Bible. It's amazing.

My favorite parable, I think, is the guy who was a good year with his crops. He builds new storehouses to store them, and then he finishes fills him full of crops and says, I'm going to take a year off and just enjoy my bounty. And then he drops dead immediately. You made reference a minute ago to art and that you just ran a piece on art, appreciating art, loving art. Given your background in monetary policy, finance, why are you commissioning pieces about art? What does art have to do with anything?

Okay, so I'm going to go way out and come back in. If you want to have a successful society and a successful financial system, one of the most important questions in a financial system is who or what enforces. Who makes the rules that enforces? The only way to have a really successful financial system is to have enforcement done primarily by culture. Yes. Okay. The So self-restraint as opposed to restraint.

Right.

And respect for the rules and respect. I give you an example from Bible class. I once had my teacher in Bible class ask me about the Solari model, and I explained it to her and she said, Oh, you're making it much too complicated. It's in Leviticus. It says we have to take care of ourselves, we have to take care of the land, and we have to take care of each other. I said, That's it. There you go. She was right. But that's an example of enforcement by culture, the obligation that I have to take care of myself, but I also have to take care of the land and the people around me. That's an example of enforcement by culture. Anyway, I decided, okay, at the Solaria Report, we have to do something to help build the culture. I brought you the Coming Clean book, and that is an overview of all the things we think are important if you want to build a culture that will do a really good job of taking care of yourself, but in a way that takes care of others and the land. But I was thinking, okay, what can we do with the Solari report to help people really understand and relate to culture.

I was out in California, and I had a dear friend, Nina Hein, who had just left this big high power job as publicity in one of the studios. I said to her, she was thinking about, What do I do next? I said, If you could do anything you wanted, what would you do? She said, I would travel the world going to museums and writing about it. I said, You're hired. She started a column called Food for the Soul, and she started writing these. We would pay her budget to go travel the world and see the museum. She's Polish, and so she has an apartment in Warsaw and goes back and forth between Europe and California. She started writing these columns, and it turns out Nina is absolutely brilliant. I mean, just off the charts, brilliant and understands the economic and the history of all the different art she's writing about, the periods. These columns are absolutely fascinating. We started to write it. After a couple of years, all these major periodicals started to do the same thing. Nina would get very upset. She said, They're copying me. I said, That's a compliment, Nina. That's great.

Anyway, so it grew and grew. What happened is the Salari team would start going to the museums with her when she was in town. She came to Europe when we were celebrating the year of Da Vinci in 2019. I'm a huge Da Vinci fan. The Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam had all the Rembrandts, and then we went to all the things in Italy and then to the Louver for Da Vinci. The Salari team started coming, and then their wives started or husbands started coming, and We all started going with her. We started doing interviews about art and why it was relevant or why da Vinci was relevant or why Vermeer was relevant or the golden age of the Dutch painters. We have a company in the Netherlands. Anyway, it grew and grew. Finally, we did a wrap up called Visions of Freedom, which she wrote of all the art that inspired freedom and talked about freedom and encouraged freedom. That was very, very successful. We decided now we roll it up into loving art. The Young Builder, she's teaching one of the courses for the Young Builders because we think art is incredibly important to encouraging culture and helping people connect to both the material and the non-material.

Anyway, so- Well, it is the bridge, right? I love music, too. Every week we have a music of the week on the Solari Report. I think music is a bridge, but I think art is a bridge. Because of her history in the movie industry, she also is one of the people who votes for the Academy Awards. She sees everything, and she's very good at tipping us off to what movies we want If art can edify and uplift a culture, it can also degrade and fracture a culture, I would think. Very famous story. I had a dear friend in Washington who ran the Confederate Museum, and he was giving a speech on Southern culture at the Smithsonian. Right in the middle, some young man stood up and said, Why should I care about any of this? John Edwards said, Young man, culture is the integration of the divine in everyday life. I later said to him, I came back and I said, John Edward, you forgot to warn me. It could also be the integration of the demonic in everyday life. Yes. Right. If you read Coming Clean, the critical issue is, are you doing everything you can to remove the demonic from your everyday life and integrate the divine in your everyday life?

The more people who do that, by doing that, I protect myself and my family. As I detox the evil from my life, I deny the evil, the energy and the food I'm giving it, which helps everybody else.

Well, that's my favorite principle ever. So just to reduce it to its tritest form, change starts with you.

The power I'm not saying that the political mechanism isn't an opportunity to make change because I think an election year it is. The greatest power we have is how we use our time, how we use our attention, and how we use our money in our daily lives. If we will revolutionize that by coming clean, think of this as a detox. If you will get, I call the system, the centralizing system, the tape worm. If you will get the tape out of your life, not only will you get stronger, but you will help everybody else get stronger because you're denying the energy to the tape worm.

What daily rituals make that work?

The first thing you do is you start with faith. Because everybody's different. If you read Come and Clean, and I should say it's up on our website, it's public, anybody can get the PDF, everybody's different. It's very important that you apply the mathematics of your time and money in a way which is energizing for you. It's got to be practical. But the first thing you can start to do, for example, and I'll talk money because that's my love, you can use cash, okay? You can stop You can stop using the banks. If you're banking with one of the big banks that created the great financial crisis, that's an opportunity for you to get your money out of those. But you can bank with a bank that didn't cause the good financial crisis and is helping your local community be successful. There are good banks and there are bad banks. You can shift your money into a good bank. You cannot shop with the companies that are basically building the control grid, and you cannot finance them. If you look at most people's 401ks right now, they're very over-concentrated in 7-10 stocks that are basically making money by building the control grid.

Now, many, many years ago, I was an investment advisor and I changed my company to investment screen. We were very quiet about it because I wanted to make sure that we could find plenty of companies that are not engaged in what I would call systemic organized crime or building the control grid. There are hundreds of them. There are hundreds of great companies that are just doing the work of the world and are not engaged in organized crime. You can invest in them. You can invest in local farmers to get your food. There are many different things you can do, but you can make sure your time and money is going to support the things that are good for you. One of the most important is health. If you look at what bankrupt families in America, it's poor health, and that comes from poor nutrition and from getting involved in the medical system in a way that's unhealthy for you. What I used to find when I was investment advisors is people They would tell me, who were millionaires and had a fortune, they would tell me, I can't afford biodynamic or organic food. I was like, You can't not afford that.

If you have millions of dollars in your brokerage account and you are eating cheap food, you are making a terrible financial decision. Anyway, so there are 25 items in Coming Clean, and you can go through all of them. But they're all about whether it's your time, your money. One of them, of course, is getting good intelligence. If they're watching Tucker Carlson, they already know what to do. But I can't tell you how many times I had clients who would watch the major networks and just They would have a bad map of the world and make terrible mistakes because they weren't getting good intelligence.

I know. Very smart, very successful people who have no idea what's happening. Right. I've interrupted you like 100 times during this conversation, but there's so many interesting places to pause. Information and the means by which it's disseminated and we consume it. We're at a period of real openness right now because the old media have collapsed. How long can that last? Where you can say whatever you think on the internet and read other people's unfiltered views on the internet. That's such a challenge to power that I'm skeptical it can last for much longer.

If you look at the infrastructure that's being put into place, so DOD says that they're going to buy a million drones a year. If you look at what has been, I don't know if you saw the latest testimony about ICE, a whistleblower claiming that he was trained to teach ICE agents how to break the law. If you look at the drones, if you look at what's happening with the local control grid, with the flock cameras, the satellites, everything, they're looking to put into place the hardware where they can shut down free speech. Now, are we going to let it go into place? If you look at the pushback, the pushback is extraordinary. It's not clear to me that they'll succeed to do that. I don't know. But I will tell you now, if we don't push back hard now and keep pushing back, they will shut down free... They'll shut down. Well, the control grid will shut down the first amendment, the second amendment, it will rip the constitution of shreds.

It seems like the reason that everyone you run into at this point is reassessing all previous assumptions is because you can read whatever you want now online. It does seem like that has been the pivotal change in the last 10 years. Nobody watches CNN. Everyone reads X, and that makes the difference.

Well, I think what happened, I think most people, so I call it this way. If I have a computer and I have 50 databases and you bring me a database that says I've got to change my operating system, that's too hard because I've got to change 50 databases and everything. I think a friend of mine used to call it getting hit by the smite button. When the system betrays you in a way that is very harmful to you, whether because you're injured by pharmaceuticals or the medical system, or your money is stolen in the financial crisis, when the system does something that really harms you, it forces you to change your operating system. I think the financial crisis harmed a lot of people, but then the pandemic really harmed a lot of people.

Yeah, that's right.

I will tell you, Tucker, we were warning people from the beginning, Don't take the shot, don't take the shot, don't take the shot. Then at the end of 2022, I were big Wim Hof fans. Do you know who Wim Hof is in the Netherlands? Yeah. Okay. We're a huge Wim Hof fans.

Yeah, we're pro-Norastern Europe in my house. Yes, of course.

We know Wim Hof. At the end of '22, Wim Hof had just published the Wim Hof method. I sent an email to everybody at Christmas time and I said, If you've been harmed by COVID, let us know and we will send you a free copy of the Wim Hof method because we think this can help. We ended up giving away 250 copies because we would get these letters. They would write in and they would say what had happened to them as a result of the lockdowns and losing their job or the I thought, Taker, I'm not a sentimental person. I would burst in tears reading these stories. It was so horrible. We just kept buying books and giving them away because I would get these letters that say, This is the first time anybody's done anything nice to me for three years. It was so helpful to people. Wim Hof is such a loving presence in people's lives, and he makes you laugh, and the method really helps. We just kept getting more books and giving them away because it was so horrible. I think the pandemic shifted a lot of people because they realized our leaders not only don't care about us, they are absolutely willing to kill us.

Yeah, I think it imbues them with the feeling of Godlike strength. They like it. Yeah, people love killing. I mean, that's why they always have. That's why they continue to do it. They pretend they don't love it, but they do love it. I know people who do it, and they love it.

But I have to tell you that if you look at the joy that comes from that power, if you look at the joy of creating life, it's so much more powerful.

I couldn't agree more. Right.

Last question. You got to plug into that invisible to discover it and use it and know it.

Yeah, God creates, Satan destroys. It's really simple. Pick God's team. You said at the outset of this year, I think a lot of people approached it with trepidation, feeling like, the foundations are definitely trembling in the West. You approached it with excitement. You said rock and roll was your Rock and roll. What's that? Why are you optimistic and everyone else is panicked?

This is the year of the firehorse in Chinese New Year. We're right in Chinese New Year now. It's the year of the firehorse. The firehorse is a symbol of great change, but it's great strength. I just bought a new mug that's the firehorse mug from one of these British porcelain companies. It makes beautiful China. I live in Friesland in the Netherlands, in the north, and the horses are the Friesian horses. They're the beautiful black stallions. Every year in Lawarden, I was up with Michael Jan and his wife, Masako, in Lawarden for the Friesian stallion show. These horses are just beautiful. That's my image for this year because- I was with Michael Jan at the Friesian stallion show.

I can't believe I missed that one.

Put it on your bucket list. These horses are the most beautiful horses in the world, and it's an amazing, amazing show. It's every January in Lwarden, I will take you.

I'm so conventional. I think of myself as free-thinking. I didn't even think about the Friesen Stalian show.

Oh, well, but the Friesians are... These are the horses that knights would ride. They're chargers. They have huge hearts. They are very powerful. That's the energy you have to go into this year because remember, if the world is alive and intelligent, if it's a plasma world, then we have to attract to us the energy we need to build. Everything's thrown up, and now we have to build it. We have to create it. That's why we're calling the Young Builders, builders. Everything's being thrown up in the air, and the question is, what will you build? I love it.

Katherine Austin-Fitz, thank you very much.

God bless you. God bless you.