Transcript of Are Christians Required to Pledge Loyalty to Bibi Netanyahu? Carrie Prejean Boller & Tucker Respond. New

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Carrie, thank you for doing this. I've been watching you on the internet. I've never met you, but I'm grateful for your honesty and your bravery and the precision of what you say. You never, in the face of all this criticism, never got so mad that you revealed ugly sentiments, which I don't think you have. You just stuck right to the Christian case. So bless you for that. Thank you. Get involved in the President's Religious Liberty Commission? What is it and how did you become a member of it?

Very good question. So I was Miss California in 2009. Donald Trump owned the Miss Universe, Miss USA organization. It was very controversial, but I dared to say on stage that I believe marriage is between one man and one woman.

Yes.

And I don't know if you remember that.

I do remember it. They punished you for it.

Huge controversy. That was really before anybody was canceled. So I always tell people I was one of the first to be canceled.

The crazy thing is the majority of Californians agreed with you because they voted. They voted in a referendum, pretty overwhelming, Prop 8, which was then invalidated by a judge because democracy is fake. But you were saying what most of your fellow Californians believed.

100%. Yeah. And I was just standing on my principles, which is what I'm doing now. So Donald Trump loved me. He said, Carrie, this is gonna be the best thing that ever happened to you. I remember one day he, it was in his office and he's like, Carrie, you have the it factor. And I'm like, what does that? I was 21 years old. I'm like, what does that mean? And he's like, you just have it. He's like, you, you dared to speak the truth knowing what it would cost you. And I think he really respected me for that. And so at 21, I became this, you know, conservative darling, I guess you could say, and dared to stand up for my faith. And, I doubled down. You know, they told me, go on Matt Lauer and apologize for what you said. You must apologize.

Did they really tell you that?

Oh yeah, yeah. The pageant people said, go on and apologize. And I turned my phone off. I went on Matt Lauer and he's like, all right, Carrie, let's do a redo. How would you answer the question? I said, I have no regrets. I would literally—

You're getting a lecture on sexual ethics from Matt Lauer? Yeah. Okay.

The irony of that. Yeah. Yeah, so I said, I'd rather be biblically correct than politically correct. And from there it was like, I mean, I was on every news station every day for the 4 months. It was nonstop. It was to the point of like harassment. Like my 90-year-old grandmother was being harassed. I mean, it was insane. But I stood firm and I did not waver.

And your position, just to restate all these years later, was, I believe marriage is between a man and a woman.

That was my answer. That's it. I said, no offense to anyone out there, this is the way I was raised. This is what I believe. Marriage is between one man and one woman. And I got second place and I got dragged through the mud. It was horrible. And the president loved me and he said, Carrie, this is, what do you wanna do? He's like, do you wanna be on Dancing with the Stars? Do you want to be on Fox News? I did like a little tryout on, yeah. Um, the morning show at Fox with Roger Ailes in New York. I didn't wanna do that. I didn't wanna wake up at 3:00 AM.

No, you don't.

And I said, you know what, Mr. President? I said, all I wanna do is get married, be a mom. I had met Kyle and I just said, I just wanna go on with my life, but I do wanna write a book because nobody can take my story from me. And so he signed off on it. Thank God he did because it was amazing that I was able to share my story. And I just kept in touch with him all these years. And so, you know, I would defend him when they were calling him a sexist, saying he was going backstage and looking at the girls and Miss USA and the, you know, changing rooms, and I would just constantly be like, "Nope, that's not the guy. Like, you're painting him as this sexist, misogynist, racist," you know? And he was being called every name in the book, you remember. And I just defended him always, 'cause I stand on truth. And then fast forward to this Religious Liberty Commission, and I got a call from the White House 2 days after I was confirmed as a Catholic. And they said, "We're calling on behalf of the president and we wanna invite you to be on this Religious Liberty Commission." When was that?

It was April 20th, I wanna say, 2025. And I wept. I was like, "Wow, this is incredible." I mean, almost 20 years later after I took that stand, here I am now defending religious liberty because I ultimately lost the Miss USA or Miss California title because of my answer. I will say that they took it away from me.

I remember. Yeah.

And the president had my back, which was amazing. He said, she just said nothing wrong. She stood on her principles. And I loved that about him.

Amen. I agree.

Because that was when it was unpopular to do that.

Yes.

You know, he risked a lot. I was standing there at Trump Tower with him and it was amazing. I'll never forget that. And so we just stayed friends. I would call him while he is on the golf course and be like, hey, they're asking me to go on the gay pride parade. I don't wanna do that. And he's like, I'll take care of it. Don't worry.

And so— The pageant people are trying to get you to march in the gay Pride parade?

Yeah. They're like, well, you can make it up to the gays by just going to the gay pride parade and showing that you're not a homophobe. So I'm used to these tricks. I've been doing this 20 years. So, yeah. So that's how I got on the commission.

It's exactly what's happening now. It's exactly— topic has changed, sort of, but not the tactics. So what did they tell you the religious Liberty Commission was.

They told me that the Religious Liberty Commission was 12 of us, 12 commissioners, and our job was to hear from everyday average Americans who were facing religious persecution, like myself right now, ironically. So we would have hearings in DC once a month, and Dan Patrick is the chairman of the commission. We're equals on this commission.

Who's Dan Patrick?

He's the Lieutenant Governor of Texas. "He's not above me. I'm not above him. We're equals." And it's under the Department of Justice, so Pam Bondi is involved.

Actually?

Yeah. Okay. So we were told that we were gonna be hearing from people at these hearings. It's from like 8 to 2 in the afternoon, so very long day. And the witnesses, we could recommend witnesses and then have them come and testify. And I recommended so many great witnesses throughout these past 7 months. I recommended a little boy who was forced to, you know, read a book about how you can be a transgender. And he came and met the president, and everybody got to see that. That was special. The president really appreciated him and his parents' stance and standing up for religious freedom. So stuff like that. We heard from a Navy SEAL who lost his pension because he didn't want to get the COVID shot. Things like that where we were doing really great work. And I thought, I thought it was actually protecting religious freedom, but I realize now that's, that's not what it was.

No, it was softening up Christians for the Iran War, obviously, and other things. Who were the other members of it, the other 11?

Yeah, so I actually, when I got the call, I actually wept because I didn't feel qualified. I thought, you know, here I am amongst these incredible names, Bishop Barron, Cardinal Dolan, Kelly Shackelford. He's run a religious liberty law firm for 35 years. He's a big CEO. You had Ryan Anderson. You had crazy Paula White. Just these incredible names. You had a woman, Allison Ho, who I believe her husband might be the next Supreme Court Justice. Just, she's argued at the Supreme Court over, I think, 8 times. I mean, here I am, this mom who I just didn't feel qualified.

I didn't make the connection between your own experience of religious discrimination and this appointment, but clearly that was the point, right?

Then I realized that, no, I am qualified. In fact, I'm probably one of the most qualified because I don't know how many people on that stage have ever been attacked, have ever been slandered, have ever been canceled, have ever lost anything. I mean, look at Dr. Phil. He's on the commission. He has a huge organization. They have big backing, big money behind them. And here I am, this little mom that I'm not owned by anybody. They can't take anything from me. And that's why I'm free. And that's why I said what I said that day.

So what were the meetings like prior to the antisemitism hearing?

They were incredible. I was crying as I would listen to these these people who are facing religious persecution. And the end of this, the main part of this commission is the end of the 1-year appointment was we were going to sit down with the president and say, okay, here's our report. Here's what we recommend that you, you know, maybe executive orders that you can put in, maybe legislative things that you can push to protect religious freedom. And so I took this position very serious. Very serious. It makes me sad. You know, I was the champion for mothers who didn't want to vaccinate their kids to go to school. I listened to people that are suffering in Gaza that simply just were protesting at their college campus. They're using their First Amendment rights. It's crazy. Where we're at.

Do you have any sense from talking to the other members between April when you got it and, was it January, I think, when this ContraChomp happened? Did you have any sense that the other members of the commission were trying to steer you in a certain direction, disagreed with you, had an agenda that was not stated?

I realized in August. So I got appointed in April or May, May 1st, National Day of Prayer, went to the White House. The president signed the executive order. We're all standing there. And then we took the summer break. So we had a couple months off, and then our first hearing was going to be, I believe it was end of August or early September. Well, end of August, I got a call from the White House, the PPO, or I guess it was— no, it was the designated federal officer who's in charge of the commission. So the head of Dan, he's the chairman, and then his boss. And she's like, hey, Carrie, I noticed that you've been posting some things online. And there's been some chatter in the White House that you're an anti-Semite.

You're an anti-Semite?

And I literally was like, what are you talking about?

Who was this person?

Her name's Mary Margaret Bush. And she said, I don't know who it is, but it's probably some low person that is just trying to cause problems. I would ignore it, but I just wanted to make sure that you're mindful of what you're posting. And that was the first time where I was like, okay, like, I am not a— this is not a paid position. I'm a volunteer. They pay for my flight, they pay for my hotel, but that's it. I'm not paid to do this job. I'm volunteering this job. And so I said, wait a sec, I pushed back and I said, you're telling me that as a religious liberty commissioner to protect religious liberty, I don't have my religious liberty to post about things that affect my religion? And my religious beliefs? So I said, I pushed back and I said, what are the things that I've been posting? Well, you posted Tucker Carlson's, or you posted the Green Beret that you interviewed, Anthony Aguilar. I said, yeah, I did. I did post that. That's sad. That's heartbreaking too.

Shooting people in food lines.

Yeah.

Yeah. Which they have.

Yeah. I said, I'm a pro-life Christian. I have a duty to speak out and it would be a betrayal of my conscience not to.

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Stop by and pick up a couple of bags before somebody else does. Zero exceptions. So this woman from the White House said that posting an interview that I did made you an anti-Semite?

She said that there were people complaining about certain things that I was posting. And then this was the worst. She said, you know, you posted Pope Leo and what he said, and you wrote in the caption, you know, that there's suffering in Gaza and there's a genocide. You know, you really just, you shouldn't use that language. That's when I knew this is a war. We are in an absolute war. I said, I'm a Catholic. You're telling me that I have to censor my posts of Pope Leo, the Holy Father? I can't post what he's saying, talking about the grave suffering of the Palestinians in Gaza? And she said, "You also cannot talk about Zionism. So Zionism," this is her words, "is their right to exist. And so when you're posting about Zionism, Carrie, you're saying that the Jews don't have a right to exist." Huh?

Mary Margaret Bush is her name?

Mary Margaret Bush is her name. She's a young woman. And I said, "Well, this wouldn't jeopardize my position on the commission, would it? Like, the president doesn't know about this, right?" 'Cause imagine me, I'm like, I just got appointed, I'm super excited, I'm passionate. This is like my dream job to protect religious freedom. And now I'm being told I don't have my own. And she goes, oh no, no, no, the president, no, don't worry about this, Carrie, this wouldn't jeopardize. So I just kept posting. Well then I got a call from the PPO office at the White House.

May I just ask you to pause for one sec? Did she, did Mary Margaret Bush tell you who had called you an antisemite? That's a serious slander.

Oh yeah.

Did she name the people sending it?

She said, I have no idea who it is.

Oh, it just, People are saying—

I think the people was Paula White. Let's just be honest. It was Paula White, I think. My personal opinion.

Okay, so now I'm sorry to keep interrupting this amazing narrative, but for people who don't follow this, who is Paula White?

Paula White is Trump's pastor.

Okay.

That's who he picked as his pastor.

And she's a pastor? That's her official position? She's a pastor?

I don't believe women can be pastors, but who am I? I'm just some dumb mom in California.

So is she a Christian pastor, Paula White?

She's a Christian Zionist evangelical heretic, in my opinion.

Okay.

But yeah, she's Trump's— she runs the White House, the faith office, White House position. And she's on the Religious Liberty Commission with me and very involved in all things Bibi Netanyahu. And so I got a call from—

How would you rate her authority as a Christian leader?

Oh, I don't take her serious at all. I don't think she's a Christian leader. I think she's a crazy person, honestly. I think she's a heretic.

I think for people who think you're throwing those terms around lightly or slandering her, I think it'd be worth going online and reading about her and watching videos of her demanding money from her congregation on film with some other Christian pastor in a foreign country, clearly. She's got a complicated personal life and saying things that bear no resemblance at all to Christian doctrine that I think it's fair what you're saying, I guess is my point.

Yeah. So I got a call from the White House, Mary Sproles, another Mary, and I looked her up.

From Presidential Personnel Office?

Yes. PPO office. Yeah. I got a call in August shortly after that phone call with the other Mary, and I'll never forget it. I answer the phone and she's like, "Hi, Carrie, this is Mary Sproles calling from the White House PPO office. I'm calling to ask you for your resignation today." When was this? This was in August. Yeah, this was in August, a few weeks after. Yes, very scary. And I remember I had, like, a tear just come down, but I wasn't sad. It was like— it was like anger.

Had you gone to any meetings of the commission at this point?

Our first, we had a first hearing just, yeah, briefly, like a brief hearing on kind of the history of religious freedom in America. But our first hearing, the most important hearing coming up, the little boy that had to read the book, was a few weeks later.

Okay, so this is before you even like served out your duties as commissioner.

Oh yeah, no, it was before the first official hearing.

And she asked for your resignation?

She said, "I want your written resignation today." And I said, "Who are you?" I thought this was a joke. Who is this person? And she goes, I am calling on behalf of the White House. I said, why would you ask me for my resignation? I just got on this commission. What did I do wrong?

Boy, you are tough.

Oh, I was not going to go down without a fight because I knew.

Clearly.

I knew.

I'm just looking at your husband who's nodding. She's tough. So excuse me.

No.

No.

Good for you. Yeah, I said, I'm not resigning. And I don't know who asked you to have me resign. Was it the president? Because I think the president should ask me to resign if he wants me to resign. He appointed me and only he can ask for my resignation. So I'm not resigning. So we got off the phone.

Wait, but on what grounds was she demanding your resignation?

She did not answer any questions. She was just told. It was like a puppet. She was like, I got to just send the message. So I called her back.

So she said, we're asking for your resignation, but she did not explain why.

No. She said, it's just not working out. Yeah, literally. Now that it's coming back to me, this was not a Tinder date.

It's just not working.

It's just not working out. And I'm going, this is serious. This is very serious.

Yeah.

So then I hung up and then I wanted to make sure it was a legit person. So I called right back and I said, hi, Mary. I said, this is Carrie. I'm just curious, please. I know you, I know you don't want to give me information. I know you're just a messenger because I didn't want to be mean to her. Of course., but I said, who is telling you to, to have me resign? Who is, who have you talked to? And I'll never forget it. She didn't wanna say it, but she finally said it. She goes, I've talked to Paula White and Dan Patrick and Brittany Baldwin, who Brittany Baldwin used to work for Ted Cruz. So it's all making sense now what's going on. So this is, this is a, this is a, a witch hunt. They, they, they're trying to actively remove me and they know that the only way they, that I could be removed is if I resign. Or if I die, or if the president removes me. So in my mind, I'm thinking, does the president know about this? Or is this just Dan and Paula trying to out me on their own?

I think they thought, oh, if we ask her to resign, she'll resign. But I didn't resign. I said, no, there's no reason to resign. You should resign, actually. Why are you asking me to resign? So she told me Dan Patrick, Paula. So immediately, imagine how boiling I was. So I tried to get in touch with Paula White. No response. I tried to get in touch with Dan. No response. How did—

did you call them or text them or—

The weirdest part about this commission, I honestly think it's so fake and gay because we didn't even have each other's, like, phone numbers, emails. Like, I had to literally ask, like, hey, can I get Paula White's email? So I actually called her daughter-in-law. Her name's Rachel. She's a pastor, young woman. And I said, hey, Rachel, I said, I just got this disturbing call. I need to talk to Paula immediately. And she's like, okay, let me try to get ahold of her. Paula never called me back. What? No, I waited for like a week and a half.

Isn't she required to in the New Testament? If you have a conflict with a fellow person?

Yeah, Matthew 18.

Is it Matthew 18?

Matthew 18. Man, you're good.

Yeah. But I mean, that's a requirement from Jesus. You've got a problem.

Go directly to that person. Exactly. Yeah, so I did. And she did not wanna call me back. And then her daughter-in-law, I got her on the phone and her daughter-in-law said, yeah, I talked to my mom and she said, don't worry about it. There's a lot of snakes in DC. There's a lot of snakes in the White House and I would just ignore it. And my mother-in-law loves you, Carrie. Don't worry about it. I think it's just one of the snakes in the White House.

But Paula White would not speak to you directly?

No, no. So then finally, after I was on pins and needles for a week and a half wondering what's going on, am I on this commission? I emailed everyone. I called Bishop Barron. I got him on the phone. I said, hey, have you been, did you like hear that they tried to remove me? He goes, what? Why would they try to remove you? I said, I have no idea other than I've been criticizing Israel and, you know, talking about the genocide in Gaza. Sorry, I'm a pro-life Christian. I can't sit here while children are being starved and bombed. And he totally supported me. And he's like, this is insane. You would never be removed from that. Bishop Barron told me that. Talk to Ben Carson. Have you— Ben Carson's on the commission with me. Hey Ben, did you hear about them trying to remove me from this commission? No, absolutely not. Ignore it. I've never heard of anything about this. Kelly Shackelford, same thing. I said, you're a religious liberty attorney for 35 years. Did I do something wrong? Am I not allowed to have my religious freedom while serving on this religious liberty commission?

Or do I have to be a Zionist who supports a genocide? Is that the requirements of this commission? He said the same thing. I haven't heard a word. I literally talked to almost everyone on the commission. I talked to Cardinal Dolan in person. I said, they tried to get me off this commission, Cardinal. He goes, what? For what? I said, well, 'cause I've been posting about Gaza. He goes, I just gave humanitarian relief to Gaza, so if they're gonna kick you off, I guess they're gonna kick me off too. Literally his words, Cardinal Dolan. They all supported me.

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So at this point, you believed it was just Paula White, the lieutenant— why would the lieutenant governor of Texas be on this commission?

I think that he is a snake. I think him and Paula are together in this, and they wanted to get rid of any dissenting voice that goes against their Zionist—

But why was he on the commission?

Why would they— I didn't even know who he was. I had no idea who he was, but I guess Trump appointed him as the chairman of this commission. So then I got a call after I was on pins and needles. I finally got a call and it was Dan and Paula. And I'll never forget, I literally remember every word.

Dan Patrick and Paula White.

Yes, yes. They called me and they said, hi, Carrie, I know you've been worried this past couple weeks, But Dan started and he goes, I just wanna let you know we've been in meetings about your situation. What situation? Yeah, what situation that I'm posting about? God forbid I, I criticize Israel. Can't do that while serving in this administration. And he said, you know, I just wanna let you know, Carrie, your job on this commission, I'll never forget this, Tucker, your job on this commission is protect the president and his reputation. He said that to me, the first thing out of his mouth. I couldn't believe it. I go, "What? I thought my job is protect religious freedom. I thought that's what he appointed me to do." And he goes, "You know, you've been saying things online, Carrie, and you really need to stay off social media. Do not use social media between now and the end of your term." And then Paula White chimed in, and she said, "Yeah, Carrie, you know what? You really shouldn't be posting about replacement theology." You shouldn't be posting about that. And there's a lot of people that are saying that you're an anti-Semite, Carrie, by your posts.

You're criticizing Zionism, you're criticizing Israel, and we have a problem with that. And then Dan chimed in again, and he got loud. He got real loud, and he's like, you know, Carrie, because I pushed back and I said, well, wait a second. I said, what am I posting that is so offensive to you? Against the rules of this commission, 'cause I didn't sign anything saying I wasn't gonna use my social media. I speak out about things that I care about. I'm a religious person, I'm a Christian. And he said, he said, you just, you've been saying things that go against, I'll never forget this. He goes, you've been saying things that are, that are not in alignment with the president and are not in alignment with Paula White. And some of the other members on this commission. And that's when I knew that this commission was a fraud. It was pretend. It was not about religious freedom. It was about, you better be a Zionist, you better push our agenda, or you're off. And that was in August. So we ended the conversation. Dan got really upset because I said, I really do want to keep posting.

I'm not going to not use my social media. Can't agree to that, Dan. And he goes, well, why don't you just, if you have any questions about Israel or Gaza, 'cause Paula White chimed in, was like, I'm the expert in that. You're just—

Paula White's an expert on Gaza?

Yeah. Yeah. I'm the expert in that. You know, I just got back from there and there's no kids starving there. It's all fake, Carrie. It's all pretend. Yeah. And so she said, if you want—

She's a Christian minister saying that?

Yeah. Yeah.

Do you think that she at any point in the course of a day feels like, oof, I'm gonna have to answer for this at some point.

You know, I think she's just—

to deny the death of children in the name of Jesus is a pretty heavy thing to do.

It's pretty sick. It's pretty dark. And she said, I want you, if you have any questions about anything, if you want to post anything, you need to run it by me first. So now Paula White, an equal of mine on this commission, is now telling me that I have to get everything approved by her in order to post about my religious beliefs. Is that insane?

It's making my heartbeat fast listening to this.

Yes. So that's the backstory.

Well, it's completely evil. And I'll just say, I know Paula White sort of. I know Dan Patrick very well. He's a lot more liberal than I am. He's quite liberal, but I always liked him. He's not stupid at all. And I'm shocked by this. I was shocked by it. It's so disgraceful.

Me too. I cried, actually. I cried. I cried to my husband. I cried to my kids. I couldn't believe this. I couldn't believe that this was happening in the United States of America, that we care more about protecting a foreign nation than we do our own people.

Did either one of them— so Dan is a self-described Christian. Paula White is some kind of Christian minister, I guess. I wanna be clear, it doesn't look like Christianity to me, but I'm trying not to judge. But did either one of them explain why a requirement of the Christian faith is supporting the Netanyahu government? Do they explain the theology there? 'Cause I don't understand it.

Yeah, no, they never explained it. They just said, you can't have your theology. You can't believe what you want. You have to submit to ours.

But their theology is that Christians are required as a matter of faith to support the government of Israel?

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Do you have any idea?

Those who bless Israel will be blessed. It's exactly what Ted told you.

Yeah, I mean, he had no idea where in the Bible it was. Of course, that line is not actually in the Bible. It doesn't say that. But whatever, the leap between that, whatever that means, it does mean something, and the moral, the religious requirement to support the government of Israel, I mean, those are just like completely two different things.

No, they don't think they are.

Did Paula White or Dan Patrick explain where you were wrong on doctrine?

No, no, they just said I cannot hold firm to replacement theology, which they don't know, Catholics, it's fulfillment theology. We believe that we are the fulfillment. You know, it's not replace. They like to dig us and say, oh, you believe in replacement theology. No, no, no, we're the fulfillment. Christ is the fulfillment of Israel.

Well, that's what it says in the New Testament. So we are the new people of God. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it says it like on every page. So, but they're accusing you of believing in something called replacement theology. For people who don't follow this, and I'm kind of one of them, I don't fully understand what that means. What do they mean by that?

They believe that, so replacement theology, their claim is that the church has replaced Israel. So for 2,000 years, that's what all of the early church fathers have taught, that we are the new Israel, we're the spiritual Semites. They would literally be rolling in their graves if they thought that we were being told that 1948 Israel is some biblical prophecy fulfillment. I mean, that alone is insane, that they think that this political state of Israel that was created in '48, mostly by atheists, is some biblical prophecy being fulfilled. And I mean, you're aware of Darby and Scofield, and so this is the fruit of that. Of that, those rotten seeds.

Is there any other place in America, I mean, in the world rather, where you have a big group of Christians who believe that 1948 Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy?

No. In fact, do you know, Tucker, that I asked my priest, who I had several, I had about 6 priests guiding me before this hearing, spiritually advising me before this hearing, 'cause I wanted to make sure. I need to make sure that I know what I'm saying and that it's actually accurate with what the church teaches. And I'll never forget, he's from Spain, God bless him. He's so, so sweet. And I said, Father, do you know what Zionism is? He looked at me like I was an alien. And he's like, what's Zionism? I couldn't believe it. I said, you realize in America that these people like Paula White, Dan Patrick, Ted Cruz, most of our politicians in government who have power, who are in the White House praying over the president, they're Zionists. They believe that 1948 Israel is a biblical prophecy fulfillment. He looked at me like I was crazy. He said, nobody's ever taught that. I said, I know, and now they're forcing it on me, a Catholic on this commission. Yeah, it's really scary.

Well, it's— yeah, and especially since we just wound up in a war thanks to this. I mean, it's hard not to see this as all preparation for this war, which is resetting the world.

And they had to get rid of the only dissenter of that, of Zionism. They had to get rid of her on this commission before the war. It was within weeks.

That did occur to me watching this. Why is it so important to crush this woman? Like, okay, she's got views you disagree with. It's a religious liberty commission. You've got— are there Jews on it too? One rabbi. One rabbi. So he's got different views, you would think, from— he's Jewish, you're Christian.

That's okay.

Yeah, it's okay to disagree. I know. But it's not okay to question the behavior of the secular nation-state of Israel. So that tells you it's not really about religious liberty, right? Not at all. It's about— yeah. Comfort that carries you from morning to night is next level. Everyone wants it. That's why we recommend Cozy Earth. You've heard us talk about their pajamas and sheets, and for good reason, they're amazing. But Cozy Earth does not stop there. Their socks are every bit as impressive— soft, breathable, cushioned to support every step from sunup to sundown. When the day winds down, ladies and gentlemen, that same comfort shows up at night with Cozy Earth's comforter. Soft, light, naturally temperature-regulating— that means you stay cool, calm, and comfortable all night. No heaviness, you don't overheat. You just rest deeply. And that's what sets Cozy Earth apart. Every piece is crafted with attention to detail, and it's completely risk-free. You get a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty. Discover how care in every detail transforms simple routines into actual comfort. Head to cozyearth.com and use the code Tucker for up to 20% off. That's code Tucker for up to 20% off.

And if you get a post-purchase survey take the time to mention you heard about Cozy Earth on this show. So, okay, the upshot of that conversation was what? They call you and tell you you've got to run your social media posts by this priestess.

Yeah.

And you say no. Then what happens?

So I, I kind of played along with it just to see where it would go. So I didn't stop posting, but I would run things by her. Like that, that kid in Florida who was being detained in Israel. Yeah. I sent her an email and I said, hey, Paula, I said, there's a kid in, you know, Israel that's detained.

I said, U.S. citizen.

U.S. citizen. I said, we We need to do something about this. I said, I know you have connections with Bibi. Maybe you can call Bibi up and see if you can get him released. This is what I am supposed to do on this commission. This is a US citizen that is being detained, a child in Israel, and nobody's doing anything about it. No response. Then I sent her another email saying, hey, Paula, there's a bunch of teachers, the Christian schools in Israel are being shut down because these Palestinian teachers are being told they can't come and teach. So these Christian schools are gonna be closed. Can you help? Can you do something about it? No response. So this arrogant woman who had the audacity to ask me to get things run by her in order to post online doesn't even have the respect to respond. She does not care about religious freedom at all. And that's when, that's when I really knew that I was up against a big, big giant. So I just kept posting and I just kept posting more, more and more every day because I wasn't gonna allow them to do this to me.

No, they messed with the wrong person.

Apparently they did.

Did.

Yeah. I love it so much. I can't stand it. I wish more men were like this. I know. Sorry to say that. It makes me so sad. Anyway, yeah, it's like 90% of the people I know in my world who are like, oh, you told me to violate my principles. I'm doubling down on my principles. They're like 90% women. And I don't know what— and I respect and love them all, truly revere them. But like half the population's male. Where are the men? I don't get it. I talk to my wife about this all the time. Like, what is that?

They're afraid. Well, nobody wants to be called an anti-Semite.

I get it.

Nobody wants to be called a racist. Nobody wants to go through what you're going through, what I'm going through. No, I agree. They put you in this box and they shut the door and they say, shut up, you anti-Semite. You're not allowed in society. We're going to shame you. We're going to cancel you. We're going to destroy you. That's what they do.

Yeah. And of course, it raises the chances you're going to get shot to death by a lot. Which is one of the reasons they do it.

Right.

So we had this moment of agreement after Charlie Kirk was killed that calling people Nazis can get them killed. And so I immediately, immediately called Mark Levin and Ben Shapiro and I was like, wow, we should not fight. They both agreed. And the next thing you know, because they do understand it makes it more likely you'll be killed. Oh, yeah. They're totally pro-violence, obviously. Yeah. And so yeah, the stakes are super high.

Very high. I have small children. Oh, I get it. I take this very serious.

You should take it seriously. Yeah. So then what happened?

So then I just doubled down. I kept posting. I wasn't getting any responses from Paula. I sent a follow-up with the head of the commission saying, "Hey, are other commissioners being told they can't post on social media or am I the only one given that guidance?" Yeah. And she sent me an email back saying, "Well, you must have prudence when you post," which I agree with. But none of the other commissioners, Tucker, were told what I was told. They were all posting freely. Dr. Phil was posting. Eric Metaxas, who has his own show, he's posting.

Eric Metaxas?

He's on the commission. Actually? Yeah, actually. Crazy.

Crazy.

Wow. Since, since my removal, he has attacked me like you cannot imagine. Very disappointing.

Sad, sad guy. Yeah. Sad, very troubled guy.

So leading up to this hearing, imagine all that backstory. So people only saw that hearing in February, but there was a whole backstory and I kept my mouth shut. I wanted to come out and, and tell the world what they did to me.. And I actually was going to do it on stage that day, but my priest advised me not to. I don't know if I should have or shouldn't have, but I kind of wanted to call Paula White and Dan Patrick out to their face in front of the world.

So this all leads up to the hearing last month?

Yes, the antisemitism hearing.

And so did you have contact with anybody else on the commission that day before the hearing?

No. So the way it works is before the hearing, once we request our witnesses, we get a whole 40-page rundown of everything they're going to say, who they are, what they're going to speak about, so we can prepare to ask them questions and go back and forth, take notes and all that. And so I realized I hadn't gotten the paper yet. I hadn't gotten who was speaking, and I had requested 4 Jewish Americans who are facing true antisemitism here in America, and they were all 4 rejected. Why? Because they're not Zionists. You had to be a certain kind of Jew in order to be accepted.

They were rejected?

They were rejected. By whom? By the commission. Whoever calls the shots, I have no idea. It's so unorganized. I honestly don't even know how this commission works. Unfortunately, it's embarrassing to say that, to admit it. But I don't know who approves these. I recommended Norm Finkelstein, who he's written books about. I mean, he is so knowledgeable on this.

Son of Holocaust survivors.

Yeah. Who better? Who better to speak on this than Norm?

He was rejected.

Norm Finkelstein, who else? Miko Pallad. He's an Israeli citizen. Raised there in Israel, and now he runs a Palestinian organization, does tremendous work. And then this guy, David Spelvik, in New York, he's out of New York. And then I requested a rabbi, a Jewish rabbi who's been fighting against Zionism for over 40 years.

What they call a Torah Jew, I assume, a believer in the Torah. Yes.

Not the— He says he's an Orthodox That's how he— yeah.

So yeah, there are a lot of those.

I know a bunch of them. Oh yeah, they're all anti-Zionists. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, they were all rejected. I requested two Palestinian Christian organizations to speak just to have a fair and balanced hearing. I wanted it to be fair and balanced. They were rejected too. Yeah, unfortunately. So I'm on the plane heading to DC before the hearing. I still haven't gotten the rundown of who's accepted, who am I going to be hearing from? So I sent an email, hey, wondering where the rundown is. I need to prepare. I'm on the plane. I need to prepare for this hearing tomorrow. Okay. Yeah, we'll send it over soon. Never sent it. Never got it from them. I had to email Kelly Shackelford and say, hey, Kelly, did you receive any preparations for this hearing? Oh, yeah, yeah. They sent it a couple weeks ago. So they purposely did not send me the rundown. I believe. I believe they wanted to leave me out of it. So I wasn't prepared, but I was prepared.

So you had no idea who was going to appear at the hearing?

No idea. No idea. And the only way I knew Norm wasn't accepted and Miko and David and the rabbi is they told me we weren't accepted. And it broke my heart because there is true antisemitism happening.

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Starte deinen Test noch heute für nur 1 € pro Monat auf shopify.de/rekorde. Wow, this is really dark. It is. So how did you feel flying to Washington?

Scared. I was scared for my life. You know, most of the commissioners stay at the Museum of the Bible because that's where the hearing is. I had requested that I stay there due to my safety. They rejected that. I stayed at a random hotel across the way. They wouldn't let you stay there? No, I requested, I said, hey, I don't feel safe. You know, I'm traveling alone. No, no. I said for my safety, I'd like to stay at the museum. That way I just go down the elevator and I'm there at the hearing. No. So I had a Muslim woman who has become a dear friend, like a sister. She's on the advisory board to this commission. She's one of the only Muslim representatives. So there's 30 advisory board members, and then there's the 12 commissioners. So I said, "Hey, Samira," I said, "Would you mind meeting me at my hotel and walking with me over? Like, I don't really feel safe walking alone." "Sure. Yeah." So she met me in my hotel lobby, and I got a text at 7:30 in the morning. The hearing was supposed to start at 8:00. We were supposed to arrive at 7:45.

And it was from Dan Patrick. And he said, "Meet me in this room for a meeting with me and Paula." I was like, "Oh, you guys wanna play dirty. Last hour, you wanna play dirty. Okay." So I didn't respond. I'm not gonna engage in that. I'm here for the Religious Liberty Commission, and I knew this hearing was very important. So I did not respond. So as soon as I get to the Museum of the Bible, go in the VIP entrance, back door, Samira's with me, Brittany Baldwin comes up. And she, remember, she was one of the ones that, the White House mentioned that they spoke to about my resignation.

So I'm already on to her. And she was a former Ted Cruz staffer.

Yes. Yes. And so she came up to me and goes, oh, Carrie, um, Dan Patrick wants to meet you in, uh, the room with Paula. And I said, I don't feel comfortable meeting with him alone. I'm sorry. Unless Samira's welcome, I'll come with her, but I'm not coming alone. She got very nervous and was like, oh, um, okay. Um, I'll let him know. And I said, okay, let him know. So she made Samira go and I went to the back with all the commissioners. And so I'm sitting back there at that point, I'm like at a 10, like I have probably have smoke coming outta my ears.

I'm at a 10 just hearing this.

Oh, it, it, Tucker, this has been going on far too long. Like these people are relentless and they thought that they could bully me, a mom in California, but they didn't know what they were up against because I was not gonna back down. So I walk in the back. Dan Patrick is in there with Ben Carson, and I believe Paula White was already in there. And I'd walk right past, go to the back, start, you know, preparing. 'Cause thank God Kelly sent me the list. And I'm just to myself. And Eric Metaxas comes up and he goes, what's wrong with you? And I go, really? Do you wanna know what's wrong with me? I said, were you told that you can't post on social media? While you serve on this commission, or was it just me? I know you're a Zionist, so you're probably safe, but I'm not a Zionist. So I was told I can't post about my position on Israel. I can't post criticism of Israel. And he looks at me like I was crazy, and he's like, what? They told you you can't post? I said, yeah, they told me I can't post.

I said, that's what's going on, Eric. That's what's going on. And now they're trying to do an intervention meeting right before the hearing with Dan and Paula and Ben. I said, but I'm not going. And he goes, well, yeah, yeah. I mean, this is crazy. I said, I know you're a Zionist and that's fine. You're entitled to your beliefs. I'm entitled to mine, but you can't force me to believe what you believe. This is a religious liberty commission. We should all be diverse. We shouldn't all be the same, right, Eric? Yeah, right. So then Brittany comes back and she goes, okay, Dan said Samira can come. So I'm gonna bring Samira up. I said, great, I'd like a witness there. So she was bringing Samir up, and I looked at Eric and I go, hey, I go, do you mind coming with me? I said, you remind me a lot of my dad, and my dad passed away a couple years ago. I said, I would really appreciate it if you would come with me so I don't have to come alone. And he goes, well, do I have to? And I go, yeah, I'd like you to man up and come with me.

So he came with me. So it's me, Eric, and Samir. We walk in. Ben Carson, Dan Patrick, Paula White, and Brittany are in there. And right away, it was like heated. And Dan looks at me and he goes, "How do you think this Religious Liberty Commission has been going, Carrie?" I said, "It's been going great. I've really enjoyed being on this commission." And he goes, "Well, I just want to know, what are you going to say today?" Yeah. Yeah. And I go, "What am I going to say today? What are you going to say today, Dan?" Are we going to talk about a foreign country? Because whatever you're going to say, I'm going to say. So if you're going to talk about Israel, I'm going to talk about Gaza. Okay? I'm literally talking to these politicians like they're 5-year-olds, like they're my kids. I'm like, you guys can't be this dumb. Like, I know you think I'm dumb, but I'm not. I'm smarter than I look, I guess. You guys thought I was dumb. You thought I was just going to be on this commission and play along to get along.

Yeah, the beauty queen.

We can boss her around. We can boss the dumb blonde around, throw her around, tell her what to do. Nobody else. Yeah.

So it got very heated. So what did he say when you said that?

He goes, well, I mean, you posted yesterday at the airplane. They're tracking every move I make and they're seeing everything I post, which is good. I did that on purpose. Why do they care?

You've got one commissioner who's not on the program. Like, why is that a problem?

They're obsessed with me. With me. I don't know. So he goes, and Brittany Baldwin is in the corner, and she goes, yeah, I can pull it up. Here it is. You posted that you are so proud to serve on this religious liberty commission and something about you're not gonna be bullied by the Zionist supremacists. And you posted a free Palestine hashtag. I literally started laughing. I go, you guys are ridiculous. I said, this is a hearing on antisemitism. And I said, oh, by the way, Did you accept any of my witnesses that I recommended, Dan? Britney, Ben, Paula? Did you accept them? No. Why not? Why not? They're Jewish Americans that are facing antisemitism. Oh, you don't want them because they're not Zionists? Because they don't believe what you believe about Israel? They've been fighting against Zionism for 40 years. You don't want people like that? Oh, I got, I got mad, but I kept my cool. They didn't know what to say. And they go, well, you had reposted something saying that we weren't accepting. I said, yeah, you weren't accepting any of my witnesses. You accepted none of them. And thank God Kelly Shackelford gave me the witness list so I knew who was speaking today.

I said, you guys didn't even send me the list of the speakers. You guys did that on purpose, didn't you? I called them all out by name. And then I look over at Eric and I go, Eric, by the way, while we're here, I said, were you told that you can't post on social media or was it just me, Paula? Did you have to get your posts run through Paula in order to post and use your social media, private, your private social media page? Or did you only tell me, Paula? I said, the audacity that it takes. I said, thank God I know my rights. You don't control me. And I said, Paula, wait till the public finds out about this. They're not going to be happy with you. You tried to censor me while serving on a religious liberty commission. You tried to force me to believe what you believe. You forced me to adopt your religion, and I won't do it. And that's why you're angry. And then Dan got really weird, and he's like, well, you've been posting about Charlie Kirk. It was so weird.

Oh, they didn't like it when you posted about Charlie Kirk?

No. They said, you've been questioning who assassinated him. I go, oh, wow. God forbid I question anything. I have to be a robot, right, Dan?

No one's been convicted.

Right. That's what I said. I said, this is an ongoing investigation.

I have every right. And moreover, I don't think this kind of behavior puts people's concerns to rest.

It was very odd.

It was very odd. Ruthlessness, cruelty. Single-minded devotion to, like, some weird culty cause. Like, that doesn't make me feel better.

Yeah. At all.

Shut up and obey. Yeah. Oh, they—

but they didn't like that, huh? No, because I don't— I don't obey them. They don't—

they don't like that. Oh, I'm trying not to get— okay, so. Wow. So how is this resolved?

Yeah. So the meeting was supposed to start at— I think it was supposed to start at 8:30 or 9:00. It ended up being late. Like, the hearing started late because it was this heated And Ben Carson's sitting there half asleep. I'm like, come on, Ben. Like, what are you, what are you doing? Stand up and, and speak up for me. You know, I'm being literally attacked by all these people. Thank God Samira was with me. And she's so soft-spoken and sweet. And she stood up and she's like, you know, there are, there's suffering going on in Gaza. You guys realize that, right? I'm one of the only Muslims on this commission. Like, can you not just accept that? Like, and then Eric was super rude to her. He's like, who are you and why are you here? It was so disrespectful.

Felt so bad for her. So is there, is Eric Metaxas's position that there's no suffering in Gaza or that it's immoral to talk about it?

Well, it's of course justified, because we're trained that no Muslim is worth defending, right? How is that a Christian perspective? Yeah, it's not. It's not a Christian perspective. And I feel I was the only one living out my Christian faith saying, wait a second, there's suffering in Gaza. There's a genocide happening. There's a Holocaust happening. Why am I not allowed to post about it? Oh, because it goes against the president, and your job is to protect the president. And Dan did say that again in the intervention hearing. I remember he said, you know, you're just saying things that go against the president, and to serve on this commission is a privilege. It's a privilege, and you're abusing that privilege, ultimately, is what he said.

As I've said, I know everybody, almost everybody in the room. And I mean, I like everybody just as a default. So it's so distressing to hear this. It's so distressing to hear this. Shocking to me. Yeah. Changes how I view a lot of these people. Many of them are owned, unfortunately. That's obvious. And there's also clearly some— there's a supernatural quality to this. I mean, you can't pay most people enough to defend the murder of children. So I do think there's a way in which they're under a spell.

I know.

It's so sad. You know, and I will say of Eric Metaxas, who wrote a very long book celebrating Martin Luther, not a Zionist. Yeah. Martin Luther, the author of On the Jews and Their Lies. And so it's a little weird. I don't know. Speaking of antisemitism.

Yeah.

I mean, what? Yeah. But anyway, whatever. I don't want to get in the weeds. Okay. So the point of this was to get you within boundaries before the hearing opened, but that didn't work. No.

So then what happened in the hearing? So imagine I'm now like, I mean, the anger that I had, I can't even describe because this has been building for months now. And so it was at an all-time high. And so when we left the meeting, went on stage, I'm like shaking. I'm like, shaking, I could cry, I could scream. Like, I'm just like, and I just prayed and I'm like, okay, Lord, like, I need to just stay calm. I have to get through this hearing. This is a 5-hour hearing and I gotta get through it. And I need to be poised, I need to be respectful, I can't let my anger get to me, and I have to remain a Christian during this hearing. I cannot give them a reason to say you're not a Christian.

And so it just started. Thank you. Thank you for doing that. Thank you. Thank you. Again, as I said at the outset, people get— this has happened to me like 1,000 times. You just get so mad that you say something cruel, you overstate what you believe, you get personal, you're not a good representative of the faith at all. You become a terrible representative because you get angry. And it's been a constant struggle for me my whole life. And I usually fail. That's why, again, I was just amazed by your testimony because it was so controlled. You kept control, which is essential. I tried. Man, you succeeded. So then, okay, what happened? You go into the room and what happened?

Yeah, so I go into the room and then they bring out the witnesses, the first witnesses, and it goes one after the other after the other, and then it opens up to the commissioners to ask questions. And so right away I'm thinking, okay, so this guy said I was I faced, you know, antisemitism on a college campus. Okay, I'm genuinely sorry that you experienced that. And I voiced that. I said, can we say that what happened to you is wrong, but then also say that the students who are peacefully protesting on these college campuses have every right to do that because they're protesting the killing of over 70,000 innocent civilians in Gaza? Can we not say the two things are wrong? Can we not say, yes, what you experienced as a Jewish person, not being able to, you know, access your classroom or whatever his situation was, I forget what it was, something like that. He ended up suing, I think, and winning. So, you know, good for him. So whatever he experienced was true antisemitism, I guess. But then also, can you say that what's going on in Gaza is wrong. And he was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, there's no genocide in Gaza.

The genocide was on October 7th. And I'm thinking, these people are so lost. How can you not say that killing 70,000 innocent civilians is wrong?

Just, just say it's wrong. Because you don't believe in universal principles. You don't believe that every person was created by God. Yeah. And has inherent worth. Yeah. Some people are valuable and others are not. I mean, that's where that comes from, is that— Yeah, they're superior. Yeah. So I just reject that as a Christian.

I do too. Period.

I do too. Period. I don't think a Christian life is more valuable than a Jewish life or a Muslim life or a Hindu life. I just don't think that.

Yeah.

So it started there. So you said that, and this witness, do you remember who it was?

Yeah, Shabbos Kestenbaum. He was one of them. I don't remember the other names, but he was the one that said, oh no, there's no genocide at Gaza. The genocide was on October 7th. That's when I knew this hearing was going to get intense because this hearing was on antisemitism. And then I realized, well, we have to define the terms. What is antisemitism? So I quoted IHRA definition. I said, You know, if by saying the Jews killed Jesus, that is according to IHRA definition of antisemitism. So one of the pastors who was testifying, I said, does it concern you? Does it concern you as a pastor that certain parts of the Bible are gonna be considered hate speech? The Christian parts, yeah. Yeah, and he goes, well, the Jews did kill Jesus. And I said, do you realize you're making an antisemitic statement right now, Mr. Pastor? This is the cognitive dissonance that these people have. They don't even know what the, I mean, an IHRA is a pretty broad definition across most states. So it's pretty serious. And so I was starting to think, okay, so is equating criticism of Israel being a Jew hater?

So I said, is anti-Zionism antisemitism? 'Cause I'm not a Zionist. That has nothing to do with someone's right to exist as a human being. Of course, everybody has a right to exist by God. But anti-Zionism is antisemitism. And I pressed him and I said, yes or no? Yes or no on the record? And he said yes. And I was shocked. I was shocked. I was so disappointed that all the commissioners with big titles big degrees, they didn't chime in and say, "Wait a second, anti a political ideology doesn't make you a Jew hater." That's what I'm disappointed in.

Well, the definition is inherently an attack on Christianity.

Yeah.

That, I mean, by definition, if you write a definition that would ban the New Testament, then it's an anti-Christian document. But I guess it's been adopted by various states.

Yeah, that's the scary part. That's the scary— in this state right now, in Florida right now, that's what's scary. I never thought being in California I was more free than people that live in Florida, but this is where it's going. It's very dangerous. And I was the only Christian that was willing, the youngest person in that room, "Oh, I'm just a dumb blonde pageant girl. Who am I? What do I know?" No, it's common sense. Wait a second, you're saying that if I don't believe that 1948 Israel, and I said this, people can verify, I don't believe as a Catholic that 1948, the modern state of Israel, has any biblical fulfillment prophecy at all, meaning at all. I don't believe that, and I have every right not to believe that. I don't believe that. Why are you forcing me to believe that? Shut up, you anti-Semite. That's what I got back. You're a hateful bigot if you don't believe that. I was disobedient to them, and that's all I was doing was asking questions. And the logical conclusion of what they were saying is, yes, anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism. And I quoted the rabbi who didn't get to come, that was denied.

I quoted him, and he's been speaking out about Zionism for 40 years. He said, "So are you calling me, a Jewish rabbi, an anti-Semite now? Is that where we're going with this?" So a Jewish rabbi's an anti-Semite now, according to their definition. This is at a Religious Liberty Commission hearing from the president, and nobody chimed in and said, "Wait a second, I have a problem with that. That's dangerous. Let's not, let's not." say that. So a Jewish rabbi is being called an anti-Semite. And then I said, I'm a Catholic. I don't believe 1948 political state of Israel has any biblical prophecy fulfillment meaning at all. So does that make me an anti-Semite? Are all Catholics anti-Semites according to you?

And essentially it was yes. The tape is almost unbelievable. I'm so glad that you forced this, and I'm so glad that you revealed these people for who they really are. This isn't a minor doctrinal point. This is like the very center of the question of religious liberty. Yes. If you're not allowed to believe that, then you don't have religious liberty. Then the First Amendment isn't real. And it also, this is an attack on traditional Christianity. So it has to be defended by Christian leaders. I think the right to believe what you say you believe, which is not hateful, of course, in the slightest. No. It is inconvenient. If you want to use American troops to fight Israel's wars. What kind of response did you get from the other commissioners at this?

After? During. A lot of them just stayed silent. They were too afraid, I think.

Did a single one of the other 11 rise to defend your right to say what you were saying?

Oh, of course not. No, they have all corporations to protect and businesses to protect and, you know, big donors to please. So why would they? I was literally the only free person on that stage. The mom in California. How did it end? It ended with— there was a guy in the audience that kept heckling, and I eventually looked over at Dan. I said, he needs to be removed. Like, this is, you know, heckling you. Yeah, he kept heckling me. That's, you know, yelling things at me, booing me. There was a lot of— I noticed there was a lot of Jewish rabbis in the audience. I don't know. There wasn't a lot of people in the audience. Normally it's filled. 'Cause anybody can go. But there was a lot of boos. Every time I would say, "I'm a Catholic," boo. And it was very hostile. And it was, I felt like it was, my voice wasn't welcome there, obviously. And then Dan had the audacity to interrupt me when I said, "So are you claiming that all Catholics that are not Zionists are antisemites? Is that what you're saying?" And he's like, Well, I'm going to interrupt.

I'm going to interrupt right now, Kerry. Why? Why? I said, this discussion is very important.

This is very important.

And what did he say? He let us continue. And we were just going back and forth, back and forth with these witnesses. And I was very respectful, very respectful. I didn't raise my voice. I didn't get angry. I laughed a few times. Told Sabos Kestenbaum that we should get coffee or, you know, we need to be having these discussions. We need more speech, not less. They didn't want my voice. So after the hearing was over, there was a, my priest was there. He came and watched and he was very proud of me. There was another Orthodox priest there and he said, I'm so proud of you. I can't believe you did this. I said it had to be done. It had to be done.

What were the other commissioners like after the hearing?

I didn't speak to one of them, and I haven't spoken to any of them since.

Really? Yeah. So this immediately goes up on the internet. What's the next communication you have from the White House or the commission?

So I got a text the next day, and it was from Dan Patrick. He tried calling me, but I didn't answer. I thought I would just get it in writing. And he said, "I tried calling you, you know, your voicemail box is full. I'm letting you know effective immediately that you have been removed from the Religious Liberty Commission." Did he explain why? I could, I honestly, I couldn't believe it. I was like, back in 2009, I stood up for my faith, and now I'm doing the same thing. This is what got me on this commission. Why would I be removed? What is going on? This is the United States of America. Haven't we made progress? No. Don't we have religious freedom in this country? You can't express it honestly and respectfully and civilly? Like, what is going on? I literally just cried when I got it. I'm like, This is so sad for my children, for my grandchildren.

You can see where it's going too.

Yeah. Yeah. And so he said at the very end of the text, it was a short text, "This is my decision." The audacity. The audacity that he has to claim he has authority to make this firing. "This is my decision." No, Dan, you're an equal of mine. You have no authority.

I don't think Dan's making any of his own decisions in general.

Yeah.

None of those people are. No, of course not.

It's my decision. And I will say Bishop Barron and Cardinal Dolan were not there that day. They were not at the hearing. They were not at the hearing that day. I would have loved for them to be there.

That would have been great. So you, as I recall, because I was watching all this from afar, said, "Nope, can't remove me." Yeah.

Because you didn't appoint me. Nope. I did a little investigating online, and I researched, you know, this— how this commission was established and the executive order. I realized, wait a second, the only person that has the authority to remove me is the president himself.

Did you talk to Trump at any point?

No. I tried to get a phone call with him. I tried to contact, you know, some of his family members that I'm close with. I mean, I've been a friend of his for almost 20 years. I've been to both inaugurations. I mean, used to have his personal cell phone. I'd call him. I mean, we're buddies. He was like a second father to me. Nobody would respond back. So Dan sent that text. I sent a text back and I said, you have no authority to remove me, Dan.

And then that was it. I noticed that a number of members of the commission began attacking you as an anti-Semite.

Who did that, and what did they say? Eric Metaxas did that. I think he called me— I don't remember the names that he called me.

Horrible names, but—

He called you names? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Which was so sad to me because I'm like, you were with me in that hearing. You heard that I had to vet everything through this. Like, you know what they're doing to me is wrong. And you don't have the courage to stand up for my religious freedom.

Just do your job, Eric. And then to call you a bigot, an anti-Semite.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's what they do, though, because once they say that to you—

I know, but everyone knows Eric Metaxas. I mean, that's like behavior. And I know that Eric has a lot of personal problems, and I assume that's what this is about. But it's still— it's just one of the most shocking things I've ever seen. It's so sad. And he never called you and said, hey, Carrie, I'm going to call you an anti-Semite. Let's talk about that. The views that you have that I believe are antisemitic. Let's talk this through. No, no.

And Dan Patrick didn't do that either? No, nope. They didn't want to have a dialog.

That is the most disgraceful behavior I can imagine.

Yeah, it really is. It really is. Because out of all the people that Trump could have appointed for this position, he appointed me. And I, I, at first I felt unqualified, but now I feel I'm one of the most qualified because I am protecting religious freedom, even faiths that I don't hold firm to. I'm protecting the Jewish rabbi. I'm protecting the Muslim woman on the commission, her religious freedom, and my own, of course.

And the Jewish Zionists, by the way.

Yeah. And everybody. You have every right, doctor.

Because this is a universal principle. It applies to every human being. And the reintroduction of identity politics by this administration is the single saddest thing. I think everyone voted against it. I think every person who voted for Trump was like, no, well, not every person, but most people are like, identity politics blows up the country. It destroys any cohesion. You start thinking about everything in terms of my group and things fall apart. And the left has pushed that for 50 years. And now all of a sudden You've got Paula White and Dan Patrick and Eric Metaxas, of all people, pushing identity politics in a way that'll totally wreck the country.

Come on now.

I know. And that degrades the Christian message into something unrecognizable and evil. That's what it is. Oh, I know. So did any member of the commission reach out to you, any of the other 11, to say, wow, you're not a Zionist, therefore you're an antisemite? This is horrible, I'm sorry, we're on your side? Not one.

Are you serious? Not one. No. In fact, I reached out to a few of them who are friends of mine who I felt I could trust. Kelly Shackelford, I reached out to. Cardinal Dolan, Bishop Barron. I reached out to Bishop Cordelioni in San Francisco, who's on the advisory board. And I said, hey, I feel like I'm a sheep surrounded by wolves, and I need a shepherd. Can you help? And a lot of them, I think, Tucker, if I'm being honest, are too scared.

Did any— I know two of the three. I know Barron, whom I respect, who's very smart. And I know Dolan, who's just a politician, but very charming. I'll say Dolan is very charming. Who doesn't like Dolan? Everyone likes Dolan. But so I know two of the three, and they didn't speak up in your defense or in the defense of religious liberty?

No. No, Bishop Barron, we were texting a little bit yesterday, and I, you know, just, I said, I'm going on Tucker. I know you're friends with Tucker. I said, I would love to know, like, do you support the commission removing me from my religious freedom? Or like, where do you stand? You know? And he wrote me back, and he was very nice. And, you know, he agreed with my stance that we as Catholics don't have to believe in some prophecy fulfillment being fulfilled with 1948 Israel. Like, that's literally what I said. So I think he, I know he agrees with me. I mean, it's, most Catholics agree with me.

But to include a political statement in the catechism, which is basically what they're trying to do, I have to believe in the modern secular state of Israel or I can't be a Christian. Like, that's a foundational thing. People have been martyred over less than that. Like, no, this is my faith. I'm not going to betray it. And all of a sudden you're being told that to be a Christian, you have to be a Zionist. You have to be on board with a political program.

Oh, yeah. And I must support a genocide. That's a requirement, too. And I cannot speak out about it if I see it or hear about it.

I just got this from our producer, so I just want to interrupt your amazing story, which I find so upsetting.

It's—

my heart is pounding. This is a note I just got. As we speak, meaning right now as we're doing this taping, there's an antisemitism symposium happening in DC. Ted Cruz, Tom Cotton, and the rest of the usuals are speaking. Dan Patrick was just on stage attacking Carrie, you. He said she was guilty of two things on the day of the religious liberties hearing. First, he said any talk of Gaza is a political matter and has nothing to do with religion. He says she was off base mentioning the war. Two, he said it was unacceptable that she went against Seth Dillon when she denied his claim that Candace is antisemitic. I want to go through these in just a second. Last line, Dan Patrick bragged that he fired Kerry and he got a round of applause. Let me just say, this is like a description of the end stage of something. This is the end of Christian Zionism. This kind of behavior, we'll look back on this like every one of these moral panics reaches its, you know, full fruition at a certain point, which peak crazy, I guess that's the phrase. And it's like they're arresting people for complimenting, you know, a woman's dress.

Like that was the kind of peak crazy of MeToo, Black Lives Matter, where like kissing Black people's feet or something. Too nuts, right? Yeah. That's what this is for Christian Zionism. This is so bonkers that I think it's over. That's just my guess. Okay. Shocking. So let me just— any talk of Gaza is a political matter. Let me throw that to you.

What's your response to that? Any talk of Gaza is a political matter. So why was this hearing? I actually tallied how many times they talked about Israel, October 7th. It— I had to stop counting. So we were, we were talking about a foreign country, and I look over at Dan and I'm like, we're talking about a foreign country. So what is this hearing about? Like, what is the purpose of this hearing? I thought it was a hearing on true antisemitism in, in America, but it was hijacked by Dan Patrick and Paula White and whoever denied my 4 Jewish Americans that weren't welcome to speak because they're not Zionists. It was hijacked by those people. So what we're getting at is if you criticize Israel, you're done for. They want to destroy you. And if you dare to speak out about Gaza— Destroy you? Oh yeah. They want to kill you. They want to kill you. Got that. Yeah. I've had some things.

I'll just say. Has Dan Patrick rushed to your defense?

Has Eric Metaxas rushed? Oh no. No, no, no, no. He's taking pride in his removal of Kerry.

So they're conflating. I mean, I would be delighted to remove politics entirely from religion. I believe strongly in separation of church and state because I don't want my faith to be corrupted by political leaders. I don't want my religion to be political. Jesus didn't spend any time talking about politics. They wanted him to come and liberate Jerusalem as a political leader. He refused and rode in on a donkey and then allowed himself to be tortured to death. So like, I'm with him. Let's take the politics out. But they're the ones who conflate Christian faith with a political agenda of Bibi Netanyahu.

Yeah. Yeah. Who Bibi is basically an atheist, I think. Right? I mean, I don't think he's a religious person at all.

Well, he doesn't keep to Mosaic law. We know that. Yeah. There may be, you know, who knows?

Which I thought your interview with Mike Huckabee was amazing. By the way, it was very sad though. It was very sad.

It was.

Yeah.

I think he felt that way too. He's been attacking me ever since. Okay, so then to the second point, Dan Patrick said it was unacceptable that you went against Seth Dillon when she denied his claim that Candace is antisemitic. Who is Seth Dillon?

What is this exchange? Why are they obsessed? Actually, your name was mentioned at the hearing. I don't know if you know that. I didn't know. Yeah. Seth Dillon is the Babylon Bee guy. So he was speaking on behalf of antisemitism. He's a Christian, but, and I guess, I don't even know what Christianity means anymore. If Christianity is defending a genocide in Gaza, that's scary. Yeah, it's not my religion. And so these people, they call themselves Christians. I don't believe they are. But Seth Dillon was on stage.

You can't defend the murder of innocents, period. I don't care who they are. I don't care what country. I don't care if they're Palestinians or Jews. Me too. I don't think any faithful Christian would defend shooting up a rave in southern Israel. That's disgusting. As a Christian, October 7th, parts of it were disgusting. Gaza is disgusting. I mean, like, it's a principle that doesn't change over time. You can't kill innocents. And like, if you think you can kill innocents, We're worshiping different gods.

Thank you. That's exactly right. We are. I don't know what Christianity they're a part of.

I honestly don't. You're getting me so worked up.

I was just saying— Sorry, Tucker.

Dear, I've done so many interviews in my life, but this one is— because I feel like this is foundational. It is.

It is.

It's a grave injustice. So Seth Dillon of the Babylon Bee, just for— I of course know Seth Dillon, but I just I want to make sure people know who we're talking about. He runs a comedy site or something, but he's one of the people who tried to bully Charlie Kirk into kicking me off stage. He's a political enforcer. And you had an exchange with him.

Can you describe it? Yeah, I asked him to his face. I said, since we're having a hearing on antisemitism, Charlie Kirk was being called an antisemite. I know. And I asked him to his face, Seth Dillon, I said, "Would you condemn that he was being called an anti-Semite?" I mean, Charlie wasn't an anti-Semite. He was not.

And he got a little uncomfortable. And neither am I.

And neither are you.

Neither am I. These are slanders. And Charlie was called an anti-Semite a lot. And I talked to him about it a lot. I know a lot about this topic. I never talk about it, but I know a lot about it because I was at the center of it because the debate was, should he cancel me in my speech this December, and he wouldn't. And one of his last texts we've ever seen was about this exact question. So, and Seth Dillon was one of the thugs trying to force Charlie—

You know that for a fact? Of course.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. And so, trying to force Charlie to cancel me and other things that it's not about. I just happened to be the guy that they— were very, very focused on. But so Seth Dillon is asked by you, would you condemn the attacks on Charlie Kirk as an antisemite?

Yeah. And he said, yeah, Charlie wasn't an antisemite. I said, I agree. Thank you for saying that publicly. And then I asked him about the Hamptons. I said, we'll just go there. I mean, we're already going there, so let's just go there. So what happened at the Hamptons?

And that was a meeting that Charlie had with among many others, Seth Dillon. I think Bill Ackman was there. I think he paid for it. I could be wrong here. I'm no expert, but I remember it very well because Charlie came right to my house after that. So we talked about it. Wow.

And so what did he say? He said that Charlie was making statements saying that you can't— I'm paraphrasing— but that, you know, you can't criticize Israel. You will be destroyed.

If you do. By whom? Have any of these people ever read the prophets in what we call the Old Testament? The Jewish prophets? Talk about tough on Israel. Holy smokes. I read some of that stuff and I'm like, give Israel a break, Isaiah, Jeremiah, pull back a little bit. You're pretty tough on Israel. Do they ever notice that? I mean, what is going on? Yeah. Sorry, excuse me.

No. Okay. So— And then he mentioned, and then he called, that's what it was. So he called Candace an antisemite. They're obsessed, Tucker. They're obsessed with the label. You're an antisemite. As soon as they attach that to you, you're done.

They shove you in the box. So when Moses goes up a second time to Mount Sinai and says to God, please kill me, These people are too annoying. I can't deal with it. Is that antisemitism?

What are you even talking about? Yeah, they're obsessed with it. And so they brought up— I think either I brought up you. Oh, yeah. I'm not sure who brought up you, but I remember saying you're obsessed with calling Candace and Tucker antisemites, and it really has to stop. It really has to stop, Seth.

Yeah.

What did he say? He got very frustrated. He got very uncomfortable. He was squirmish. He was very, very frustrated. He's not a man at peace. Very uncomfortable, yeah. And then after that was over, we actually went backstage, and I had probably like a 10-minute— while everybody else was on stage still, I went to the bathroom, and then I talked to him. And we had a pretty good exchange. I said, are you Jewish? And he goes, no, I'm a Christian. I said, oh my gosh, I thought you were Jewish. He goes, "No." I said, "Okay." And I said, "Well, thank you for that dialog out there. I think it's very important." You know, I said, "Charlie was being called an antisemite, and I wanted to know about the Hamptons meeting. I was told that, you know, they were bullying him." They certainly were bullying him. Yeah. And I said, "Thank you for clarifying that." But since then, he keeps saying that he wasn't one of the ones that was, you know, bullying Charlie or— calling him an anti-Semite. Or I asked him, I said, Seth, who was morally blackmailing Charlie? Who was it? Just say the name or the names of the people that were doing that.

Because Charlie was very upset on Megyn Kelly. He said, they're morally blackmailing me, they're calling me an anti-Semite, attacking my character. Who are these people? I think we have a right to know.

Who are these thugs? I talked to him about it many times. And he was very upset about it. And I've really tried not to use the memory of a dead friend to make a political point. So a lot of other people have not restrained themselves, and they're constantly talking about my best friend Charlie, and he thought this, he thought that. But I know a lot about this topic, of course, because I was at the center of it, because it was my speech that they were mad about. He was protecting your speech. He certainly was, at great risk to himself and great risk He lost millions of dollars, as he said, because he refused to cancel me. So of course I know all that, and I haven't gone on and on about it because I don't like calling attention to myself. And I think there's something ugly about talking about someone who can't speak up for himself once he's passed. I just don't like it because in my culture that's not acceptable. But it's just a lie. It's— they're lying. And I know that for a fact because he sat in my living room and told me about it.

So, like, stop lying. I can't deal with it. And he was making me too mad. So now Dan Patrick is saying that because you wouldn't denounce Candace as an anti-Semite, you went too far. So that's now in the Nicene Creed. No, is it? What did the Council of Nicaea add this part kind of retroactively where you have to denounce a podcaster or you can't be a Christian or serve on a religious liberty commission?

Like, what is going on? We're at— and you know this well, They want to call you an anti-Semite. And then once they put that on you and shove you in that box— Oh, I know. They want everybody else to come to the town square and they want to watch you get publicly lynched. And then they want everybody around to denounce you.

And if they don't— Preparatory to you being arrested, because if it's against the law to have certain views and they claim that you have those views, You're in violation of the law. Yeah. So, I mean, let's be real. This is like— and in Europe and in Canada and Australia and New Zealand, lots of people go to jail for having views that Seth Dillon doesn't like. Lots of people go to jail. Oh yeah. A lot. So it's not like this hasn't happened. It's the law in Europe. Yeah. It's the law in Australia. It's the law in New Zealand.

It's the law in Canada.

We're in America.

Yeah.

Well, this is insane. I'm just saying lots of people go to prison over this.

But they're obsessed with And then they're getting everyone else. You've experienced this. Denounce Tucker. Distance yourself. Call him an anti-Semite.

Agree with us or else. I'm so grateful to be old because I just don't care. But I do care about the country a lot. And I see where this is going. So they want you to denounce Candace Owens.

Yeah. Just like they want Megyn Kelly to denounce Candace Owens. Oh, I know.

But they don't own me. Megyn Kelly, who's like the most moderate person who's ever lived. Yeah. Megyn Kelly, who really likes Israel and all her friends are Jewish. And like, Megyn Kelly is— there's like no world in which Megyn Kelly is an anti-Semite.

I don't even entertain the idea. I don't even— I don't even say I'm not an anti-Semite. Like, I'm so sick of that. I've been through this before with the whole gay marriage thing. You're a bigot, you're a homophobe. Call me whatever you want, I'm just a Christian, okay? And if being a Christian now is an antisemite.

That's what I have a problem with. Well, that's the whole point. That's the whole point. That's the whole point. Being a sincere Christian, a New Testament-believing Christian, makes you an antisemite. Therefore, we can't have Christianity because that's the real enemy. Of course. So, okay, you come out and you say, after Dan Patrick fires you, fires you, Hey, Dan Patrick, you can't fire me because you didn't appoint me. This is a presidential appointment and the president hasn't weighed in. So where are we now on that question?

Good question. So I hadn't been on X in years, so I got on X after this all happened. Did that improve your life a lot? That's been interesting. So I've been posting, obviously. How sad I have to defend myself against this insanity. So the other day, it was recently, it was about a week ago, I went on and I was looking for Mary, the designated federal officer from the— I wanted to look at an old email that I had sent her. So I typed in my mail, in my mail, Mary. Well, all of a sudden, a Mary Sproul popped up, an email from Mary Sproul. And I thought, well, that name sounds familiar. That's the woman back in August who tried to get me to resign. I go, what is she emailing me about? She sent it on February 12th. The hearing was on the 9th. So just a few days after, I think I sent the Dan Patrick, you don't have the authority to remove me on the 11th. So she sent it the next day, but I hadn't gotten it. It must have gone to like spam or some junk mail. So I never got it.

I would've never seen it had I not looked for Mary, the designated federal officer, Mary Margaret. So it comes up and it says, "On behalf of the President of the United States, I'm emailing you to let you know that you have been removed from the Religious Liberty Commission effective immediately.

Thank you for your service, Mary Sproul." It's really dark. Yeah.

Have you talked to Trump? No.

I reached out to—

And was there any explanation? No explanation. So I wrote her back and I said, oh, Mary Sprawl, you're the same Mary that tried to get me to step down, resign in August. I left out a very important part, Tucker. This is good. At the first hearing, the president was there. Trump was there at the first hearing. Remember Mary called me to get me to resign and then I didn't? Well, I saw the president. And we got to have spent some time with him before the hearing. So we were shaking his hand and he looks at me in the eyes and he goes, hey Carrie, he goes, I want you to know something. He goes, I took care of it. And he goes, you know what I'm talking about, right? He said that? He said that. And I said, yes, Mr. President, I know what you're talking about. Thank you so much. And he goes, I, you know, I know the real you. I know the real you. And basically he told him to leave me alone. I thought that was incredible. I mean, he was doing the right thing. How can you kick a religious person off a religious commission?

It's ridiculous.

This was in August. This was in August. So he had my back. So I thought, oh, I'm good, I'm good. He doesn't support them trying to kick me off. So when I got this email a week ago from Mary Sproul, I said, you tried to remove me in August. And the president vetoed your attempt to remove me, so I don't really take you serious. But maybe, maybe she is a legitimate person, spokesperson for the president. But I would think that the president would actually send a letter removing me if this was actually his decision. And I was told from someone very high up in the White House that they spoke to him on the phone and He was wrestling with this. He's like, "What do I do? Dan's saying this, and I really like Carrie." And so I don't know.

I honestly don't know. Have you heard from the commission since then? No.

Have there been more hearings? The hearing is coming up next Monday.

And you've not been invited?

No. And it makes me sad because that's the hearing on religious freedom in healthcare, all the mothers that don't want to vaccinate their kids.

Yes. Has any, to this day, so we're in the second week of March as we're taping this, has any member of the commission spoken up in your defense?

No.

Not one? Not one. What about Bishop Barron and Cardinal Dolan?

I tried to get them to make a public statement about it, but I don't think they want to be involved. Why? I don't think they want to be called an anti-Semite because they're speaking out for someone who was called an anti-Semite.

That's where we're at. But the principle at stake here, and I, and I like, I respect Baron for sure. I do too. Um, he's very smart, like actually very smart. But the principle at stake is a doctrinal principle, it would seem to me. And so your core position is that being a Zionist, signing on to the Zionist project is not a prerequisite for being a Christian. It's not part of the Nicene Creed, actually. And you were fired for saying this. That's your real crime. And I would think that any theologian or Christian leader, really any Christian, would want to just pipe up and say, you know, maybe I love Bibi, maybe I love what he's done in Gaza. Yeah. But like, as a point of fact, you don't need to sign on to a political program in order to be a Christian.

Yeah, and to serve on a religious liberty commission. Of course.

That's like basic.

But no one will say that. No, no. And Bishop Cordileone, I love him and I respect all of them, Cardinal Dolan, Bishop Barron, but no, they don't want to make a public statement about this.

I believe— That's really revealing and sad to see that.

It is sad. It is sad. You know, I can handle it, I guess. I'm, you know, a 38-year-old mom.

But you can't allow non-Christians to determine what Christian doctrine is.

Right, exactly.

Which is what happened during Vatican II, in point of fact. I say that as a non-Catholic, I shouldn't even get involved, but that's literally what happened. Non-Christians like, oh, you're not allowed to believe that. So they changed Christian doctrine. And I just think That is—

Well, it's dangerous.

It's very dangerous. Well, yeah, you're supposed to be trying to emulate Jesus, who paid with his life for disagreeing with temporal authorities. And you're supposed to be representing Jesus' word on earth.

So, like, the stakes are really high. Yeah, but why would you be disrespecting others too? So why not just come out and say, "She has every right to stand up for her religious beliefs, and she shouldn't be removed." Just say that. She shouldn't be removed for her religious convictions. Shouldn't every commissioner believe that if they're actually doing their job? Why am I the only one doing my actual job, which was to protect religious freedom for all religions? It's very disappointing. And I think a lot of these commissioners are on this to have access, because let's be honest, it's— you feel cool being invited places, the fancy invites. Oh, I'm going to the White House. But I've said over and over again, I would rather die. I would rather die than deny my faith. And I'm standing up for my faith by doing this because I will not submit to a country that is committing genocide in Gaza, full stop. That's the— that is the fact. And they want me to deny my eyes and deny what I've seen and what I know in my heart. As a Christian, I cannot do that. I would rather die.

Well, that's one of the most disappointing stories I've ever heard. And it hits me especially hard again, because I know most of the people involved and like a bunch of them. So that's really, really sad. Tell us about the reaction to this hearing outside of the Religious Liberty Commission. How have other people responded to this? Is anyone on your side?

It's been amazing. Okay. It's been amazing. So Catholics for Catholics, do you know John Yapp, the president of Catholics for Catholics? No. He actually helped Trump get the Catholic vote in 2024. They've done amazing for the Catholic, you know, for politics in general. And so they came out right away and it was beautiful, Tucker. And they said, we are inviting Carrie to Washington, DC And we're giving her the Catholic Champion Award.

One of the attacks on you, and I think I saw it from people on the commission, is you're not really a Catholic because you just converted to Catholicism. So how dare you speak for Catholics? Yeah. Seems a pretty low thing to say about someone. Very, very, very low.

And I'm not misremembering that? No, that's exactly right. They're questioning how long I've been a Catholic. Um, but what's crazy, Tucker, is that I left— I, I used to be a Zionist. I used to be a dispensational Christian for my entire life. Really? Yeah, yeah. I went to the evangelical Paula White type of churches my entire life. Oh wow. And I started studying about Dispensationalism. And I was thinking, wait a second, how can they just interpret scripture however they want, twist it, manipulate it, and say those who bless Israel will be blessed? Bibi. Those who bless Bibi will be blessed. And if you don't bless Bibi, you're going to be cursed according to Lindsey Graham. I started thinking, this is insane. So I started studying the early church fathers, and I started studying, you know, what they taught, and it led me to the Catholic Church. Literally, like, learning about dispensationalism led me to the early church fathers, and then I became Catholic. And so I'm not an idiot. I know what the Catholic Church teaches. We are the new Israel. That's what the church teaches. We are the fulfillment of the old Israel. I mean, look at, Jesus fulfilled it all on the cross.

There's, he got, when he said, "It is finished," The old was completely done. There is the New Covenant now. Those who are in Christ, that is the new people of God. It is very clear. This isn't even debatable. I don't even know why we're having this debate, which is why Bishop Barron and Cardinal Dolan should be like, yeah, it's what we believe. We are the new Israel. The land means nothing anymore. Yes, it's the Holy Land, but that's not some biblical— what are they gonna— what's scary, Tucker, is these people like Paula White and Ted Cruz and Dan Patrick, they They believe that there will be, the Dome of the Rock will be torn down and they will rebuild that Third Temple. They're saying it now. Look at Pete Hegseth. There will be a rebuilding of this temple. Oh, I know. It is heretical and it is anti-Christian. I know that. Because they're gonna bring in the animal sacrifices again. And the most antisemitic thing that they believe is that 2/3 of the Jews are gonna be slaughtered. That's what these people believe. They're just manipulating them and using them.

They don't really care. Oh, everything you've said is true. I mean, Jesus describes himself as the temple.

Yes.

He is the temple.

Well, he says that. He is the lamb that was slain, the final sacrifice.

So yeah, I'm a little confused. Okay, so I understand that there are people who believe in the theology that you just described right there. I think it's wrong. I don't think it makes internal sense. I don't think it's Christian. But I think there are a lot of really decent people who believe it. I know some really decent people for sure that I agree with on a lot of other issues, but they sincerely believe it. The Catholic Church does not. The Catholic Church's doctrine is not something you have to guess about. You can look it up online. It's been pretty consistent for a couple thousand years. So like, why in the world would Catholic leaders who don't believe this Why wouldn't they just say, "We don't believe this as Catholics"? Because again, you can check it online if you want. I'm totally confused.

How are they controlled? I think that they don't want to face what you've faced and what Candace has faced and what Megan has faced and what I've faced and Marjorie Taylor. It's, "Shut up, you hateful bigot, and we're going to destroy you." They don't want that.

Really? Because we're promised that by Jesus in the New Testament. Take up your cross. 100%. I was interviewing this amazingly Anglican bishop in Jordan last month, and I'm Anglican, so it's just amazing to find a truly Christian Anglican.

Oh, I didn't know that.

Oh, it's wonderful. It was the best thing I did all year. So I interviewed this man, and we're talking off camera, and I said, how often do you spit on or spit at in Jerusalem? Like, every day? Orthodox Jews spit on me or spit at me or urinate on my church or whatever. And I'm like, how can you deal with that? If someone spit on me, I don't know what I would do because I'm not a great Christian and I'm having all these fantasies about what I would do if someone spit on me. I would not respond well. And he said, oh, no, I feel blessed. Jesus was spit on in Jerusalem. And I thought, wow, that's the Christianity I believe in right there. That is right. That is accept the persecution that you're promised. You are promised persecution. It's not ambiguous. You're not promised lots of money.

Sorry, Paula White.

I know. You're promised persecution by the world that hates you because the world hates Jesus. I was so inspired by that. Made me teary hearing someone say, because he meant it. This was off camera, having a cup of coffee. And so considering that is the faith, I don't really get Christian leaders who are like, "Oh, I don't want to deal with the blowback." What? Jesus himself is promising you what happened to him, which is being tortured to death. I know. And I don't want to be criticized on Twitter?

Yeah, look at the disciples.

I think they, to the extent we know, I think they were all murdered.

All but Luke 1.

Maybe, okay. Yeah.

So anyway.

So sad.

It doesn't make any sense to me. And murdered very viciously. Oh my gosh. I mean, horrifically. And so we now have leaders that don't want to even suffer any discomfort at all, Tucker. They don't wanna be name-called 'cause that would hurt them too much. It would hurt their feelings. So they're gonna hide behind a 38-year-old mom and whisper, keep going, I'm praying for you. Oh, do you have people said that? Oh yeah. I mean, my priest, I've had several priests that I've spoken to, I've asked, you know, can you make a public statement? Oh, I don't make public statements. I get people to heaven. Okay, now. Okay, okay. That's okay. So hide behind the mom and I'll take the bullets. Yeah. I'll take the bullets while the shepherds are running for the hillside.

Must be nice.

It's not nice. But no judgment on them.

No judgment. Well, cowardice is its own punishment. You know, I think your wife's never going to respect you ever again. You can't respect yourself. I think your wife's attracted to you and you're a coward.

I don't think so. I know, but I will say, to answer your question, I've had incredible men, Catholic men, outspoken men, stand up for me, and several priests. I will say there has been priests. I have one that's coming to the event next week in DC, the gala. And I'm sorry I got emotional, but I'm like, oh my God, if it wasn't— I mean, could you imagine going through all this, and then they come out and they say, not only are we going to honor you, but invite you to this, but we're going to give you this award. You're going to get the Catholic Champion Award. You're a champion, Carrie. I'm thinking, oh my gosh, thank you. Thank you for this. And since then, they've had tremendous blowback, people pulling out. Oh, I can't believe you'd have that anti-Semite. I mean, this is where we're at because I asked the question.

Really?

They had people pull out? Oh yeah. Yeah, they've had people, you know, attack them. Oh, I can't believe you would have Carrie and— well, Candace will be there too. You know, you can't have Carrie and Candace. That's like two antisemites in one room. We can only have one, I guess. I don't know. So yeah, it's very unfortunate. It's the public lynching and then making everyone around watching say, yeah, they're an antisemite and I'm going to distance myself from them. Because I don't want to be labeled an anti-Semite.

This will all be over soon. We've reached peak crazy. I felt like that hearing the response to you was that that's as bad as it's going to get without pushback. I think you really woke people up.

Well, they're desperate though, which is scary. Oh, I know. Because they will try to do everything to destroy you. I've heard that.

Yeah, you know it. Carrie, thank you for doing this. I really appreciate it. That was, that's an amazing story.

Thank you, Tucker. Appreciate you having me.