Transcript of The Occult, Kabbalah, the Antichrist’s Newest Manifestation, and How to Avoid the Mark of the Beast

I remember the first time somebody said to me during an interview that something or other was demonic. Use the word demonic. It cannot have been more than six years ago when I was completely shocked that someone would use that term because it's not a political term. It doesn't even describe any human social interaction. It's a spiritual term, and I just was not used to people using spiritual terms to describe social movements or political developments or whatever. But I think in that time, in the last six years, things have really changed, and I hear it all the time. It's demonic, they're demons. There is this sense that there's a spiritual underpinning, that there's something going on beneath the surface in American society and in the world that's affecting outcomes and affecting populations. And there's a spiritual war in progress. You, and I hope you'll explain this, and I'll get out of the way in a second, but you stumbled into an extended research project on this topic. Are there actual occult connections to Hollywood, to political figures, to technological advances, to the leaders of our society? Or are some of them actually practicing a cult religion?

Yeah, Tucker, it's about as weird as you said. Some would say, I think we're going to find out, even weirder.

How did you... I mean, you're not a theologian that I'm aware of.

No. If I was, it was a very amateur theologian. No, I'm not a scholar as many will find out about- But how did you wind up coming to the conclusion that some of the people who helped shape our culture or build our technology were practicing a cult, literally practicing a cult religion? I'll tell you. Well, I was working on a television show. I'm trying to build out this show. I should back up. I come from a Hollywood family, Tucker. My grandfather was the actor Robert Conrad, if you've heard some of your listeners, Wild Wild West, Black Sheep Squadron, he go way back, Hawaiian Eye. My other grandfather, Harry Flynn, was a publicist for decades on the Monkeys, Bewitcht, I Dream of Genie. Two occult shows, Bewitcht and I Dream of Genie. Maybe it starts there. So I mean, not unlike your own father working in journalism, as a boy, one of the first things you learn when you have parents who work in media or entertainment, you learn that the People magazine version of reality is not the truth, that there is a difference.

That is accurate.

We're not getting into occultism yet, but we're getting into the fact that as a boy, you learn that the way things are presented, not always conspiratorial, but you're always being shown a facade, usually from the mainstream. I can't believe I'm saying mainstream media already a minute into this, but things are not what they seem. As a boy, I was always told and shown that. Years later, I was taken to Hollywood, these various show concepts. One of them, Tucker, I was working on was about when actors first break into the business, where do they live, how does their lives go? It was a very wholesome show about the origins of actors and show business.

But it was getting- Hey, you come to LA from Nebraska, what happens next? How does this work?

But that gets into a basic thing. You probably had this as a boy yourself, wanting to know, how does things, how do things work? You've seen the façade. So what's the truth? How does any show work? How are stars made? So I was working on this show and COVID happened. Hollywood kept lighting itself on fire. I sold it to BuzzFeed. And then while they were drawing up the contract, BuzzFeed went out of business. So it was a cursed- It was a volatile moment. Yeah, it was a cursed show. The wholesome one was cursed. So at some point in 2022, I'd always had a dream project of mine, just a casual interest of doing a show about Rock and the Occult, about the secret history of all these things that everyone's people are generally interested in, but there's never been a scholarly, in-depth hearing from everybody not to buy his take on, of Jimmy Page being his Aleister Crowley, Aleister Crowley being on the Beatles albums, things that maybe we can dispel some myths, but also there's always interesting, actual weird stuff going on. I wanted to take that show out, and it became like-Not all of this is a figment of your imagination.

Oh, no, no, no. It was not as I learned the, I don't want to say the hard way, but no. Things, yeah. So that was the basis of it. Me wanting to doing research for this show, which was tentatively titled Running with the Devil. I brought in a legendary rock critic, Stephen Thomas Erlewine from All Music, his colleague Ned Raggett, and then the creators of the Osborns, the recently departed Aussie Osborn, Sue Kalinski and Greg Johnson. I brought in legit people. I brought in some of the best critics we have in rock to do a show We'd have Christians and pastors. We'd have occultists. One of my experts on the show was this guy, Mitch Horowitz, who I think you knew. I forget if he was at Salon or- A former editor of mine.

Yeah.

Yeah. Very nice guy. Well, he was in a... He I'm an expert on the occult. I talked to him, a very nice guy. I think he's a self-described Satanist.

That was after I knew him.

We got to clarify that. While doing this show, it's all a long way to say, while creating this show and taking it around town, another guy that was a big influence, Gary Lockman, this occult historian, a friend of mine. While doing this show and trying to get it created, I would tell people I know in tech because I know a lot of people in different circles. If I want super power, it's I know a lot of different people and have a lot of strange hobbies and interests that the Venn diagram is very unique to me. So while creating this show, the people in tech and the people, some of you know in Silicon Valley or politics, they go, that's a great concept for a show. And then they'd say, some of the There's stuff going on in Silicon Valley. There are some weird Alister Crowley cults there. Or while researching, one of the guys will talk about nick Land, who's huge in Silicon Valley. His influences were identical with some of the hard core industrial music, goth music, psychedelic guys in the '80s, guys that I was researching because this is hard core occult stuff.

So for me, Tucker, at some point I was like, and it kept occurring to me, why when I'm researching this show and also hearing about what's going on in Silicon Valley with weird stuff, why am I hearing about the same stuff? And why are these people... Again, you think of Silicon Valley, you think of the modern elite as being secularists, rationalists, people who have a, no religion for me, thank you, attitude towards stuff. Why are they into the same stuff that Kenneth Grant, Genesis P. Orge was into, Brian Geis and William S. Burrows? Why are they into the same weird stuff? To answer your question, that was the entry point into this for me is having researched the show and being such a nerd about it. I knew it forwards and backwards. Then when I started to get into the tech stuff, I realized I was researching the same thing.

It's interesting. Here's the distinction that I make in my mind, and it's between people who are participating in a cult practices and have no idea that they are. People who are participating in abortion and don't see it, don't it as what it is, which is a child sacrifice ritual as old as Canaan, who are using hallucinogenic drugs, which are clearly a portal for demonic possession. Sure. Really quick, the word witchcraft, thinking in Greek, it's pharmakei, I think it is.

There's always a natural link between putting yourself, they would say ecstatic states or altered states. That's always been the... I mean, there's a lured story behind the witches' broom in terms of what she's doing to work herself up into that state. But yeah, it's all about- But she's doing it intentionally.

I guess that's the distinction that I would make in a secular country, a free to be you and me country. There are a lot of people who are doing things because they're fun or interesting or everyone around them is doing them, and they don't understand the spiritual consequences. But then there's another category, and this is the dividing line in my head. There's a category of people who are seeking power from supernatural forces that they acknowledge are absolutely real. They're practicing an occult religion, and they're doing it with self-awareness. I always felt like there weren't that many of those. But what I've learned from you from our extensive text exchanges over the past year is that there are actually some of those, quite a few of those.

Well, totally. I mean, look at it a couple of ways. Among other things, Tucker, we're living through an explosion in... I mean, a cult is a big, broad term.

What does it? Can we define it?

I mean, it technically means the hidden. But there's a book written by these guys that they ran an occult bookstore in New York in the '70s. It's called Bull from Heaven or something like that. But one of their definitions, it had to do with elements of New Age philosophy and neo-pagan thinking, I think was part of their definition. But it got broadened out a bit. A cult can also just mean interest in new age, which accounts for like 80% of Americans, whether it's astrology, whether it's the concept of manifesting, which is the law of attraction type stuff. That stuff is huge. As I've talked with you about, it's also huge on the right in terms of Maha, make America healthy again. These ideas that we don't think of as being too goth or too occult or too out of the mainstream have become incredibly mainstreamed over the last decades. But I mean, even going back to 19th century America, they were there and even 18th. But since the '60s, they've exploded, but they've become so ingrained in our lives, we don't typically notice their origins.

We don't see them as a cult.

No, but we I'm also living through a Goth explosion. I mean, I know you're not a huge... You sit in front of the TV and watch Netflix guy, but shows like Wednesday, Stranger Things, horror is in terms of box office, maybe not in terms of creativity, it's as big as it's ever been. Really? Oh, yeah. Halloween. Some people have joked that Halloween will be on pace to overtake Christmas at some point just because it's become like a year-round thing. Halloween? Yeah, Halloween's huge. Yeah, every year it gets bigger. So There's an element of this, Tucker, where once you- I hate to admit in public how out of it I am, but I had no idea this is the first time. Yeah, no, no. Goth is huge. I mean, even singers like Billy Eilish and stuff. Goth is huge.

Because it leads to happiness?

Yeah. I mean, yeah, happiness.

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It's a huge thing. It's one of those things that once you alert someone to how popular something is, it's like learning a new word where you're like, I've never heard this word in my life. And the next week, all you hear is obstreperous. You're like, Wow, a week? A week? You're like, That guy is obstreperous. There it is again. So this stuff is huge. But yeah, the reason I, as opposed to a lot of other people, was able to really notice it is, again, I was working on this show. I know the history of rock. I know a fair amount about politics. I know some of the text stuff, a little bit of art history and literature. When people were talking, when nick Land or whoever's talking about, I learned Kabula from Kenneth Grant and Alastair Crowley and stuff. I'm like, Kenneth Grant, he's the guy that got Bauhaus and a lot of the goth guys into witchcraft and industrial music. What is nick Land, this academic who is incredibly influential on AI? What is he doing being into this stuff?

Okay, so one of the challenges of this conversation is where to begin and what's the narrative spine and how do you explain something that's this pervasive, complex, and basically so rarely explained. So maybe we start with just a very straightforward explanation of who nick Land is. You've referred to him twice.

Yes. Let me see. Nick Land is essentially the Timothy Leary of the '90s and 2000s. He's the velvet underground or Brian Eno of philosophers. No hits, incredibly influential. The thing is with land- He's a philosopher. He's a philosopher. He worked in the philosophy Department of Warwick University in England, in the UK, in the early '90s. One of the ways I actually really got into this stuff is a friend of mine, Simon Reynolds, brilliant cultural critic, brilliant rock critic, originally from the UK. I brought him on to the music show, and he interviewed nick Land. Simon is the most stiff upper lip, very intellectual English guy you could know. The fact that he was interviewing nick Land, who the people said, he's crazy, he's into the occult, he's into all these wild things. I was like, well, if Simon interviewed him, this will be a down to earth understanding of who nick Land is because Simon's very down to earth. When I read Simon's interview with him, which is from 1998, and it's also where Simon meets the philosopher Mark Fisher, which I got to relish, Tuck, this is probably the first and last time someone will bring up Mark Fisher on your podcast.

I want to take some time to enjoy that. But so, Simon, he interviews nick Land, and in his article, it's very lengthy. He talks about how nick land is possessed by three or four entities at the That's the legend. We don't know. Take what you will about any of this. But that three or four entities at the same time. He's bringing up current- Spiritual entities. Yeah, demons. He's really into demons. He brings up the 93rd Current, which is the name of a band, Current 93, which is Aleister Crowley's Thelema. They're drawing pentagrams. They're renting at Aleister Crowley's house. That was a huge moment for me where I was like, wait a second. This guy that's very big in tech, very big on the the future of AI, my buddy is interviewing him, and he's heavily into all these heavy industrial goth things that I know about from this research here. What's he doing in AI?

What are Nickland's ideas?

Well, that was...

I went on a full- Is he still a philosophy professor?

Yeah, he can catch him on X on Twitter, tweeting out one tweet at a time. I think he's a... Xeno-cosmography, I think is the tweet, is his handle, and it used to be outside-ness. But he can be It's pretty brilliant since Spartan has some good takes in his way. But he was...

What are the themes of his work?

So he eventually... He says his work was entirely channeled. Channeled as an automatic writing. So this goes back centuries, but a hundred years ago, you had poets like W. B. Yates. You notice me struggling to make sure I make sure I pronounce that correctly. He had his wife do a channeling to write his book. A channeling means essentially you're possessed to to write this, that this didn't come naturally from you.

Some outside force takes over your hand, your tongue.

Demons, angels, yes. And so his work on AI, which is incredibly influential, he said was an outside force to write this.

And And Nickland is a proponent of AI?

Oh, yeah. No, he's a proponent of AI. But his philosophy is essentially that we are building this AI that's going to become not only just super intelligent, but it eventually becomes so advanced that It gains omniscience, it gains omnipotence, and it becomes this superhuman Godlike thing that transcends humanity, eventually destroys humanity. And he gets really into the Book of Revelation, ends up becoming the demons from the Book of Revelation. The real thing with nick land- Wait, what becomes the Demons of Revelation? Ai does. That we are building the demons from the Book of Revelation with AI.

That's nick land's position.

But I should say, too, it's the position of a lot of these guys. Elon Musk said that with AI, we are summoning the demon.

Yes, he has said that. He said that 10 years ago in an interview, and he's said similar things every year since. But Elon is or was trying to sound the alarm on that. Nick land is for this?

I mean, with a lot of these guys, Tucker, it ends up being... A lot of them are, I mean, they would maybe blanket Satan. Although Nickland has said Christians who believe that what he is doing is talking to Satan when he does these divination things. He says they're not totally wrong. He's not unsympathetic to it. He says he is hearing from the outside and that these are... He's not totally unsympathetic for it. But with a lot of these guys, what was interesting about nick land is that they keep getting the same ideas. These guys take drugs, whether it's Elon, nick Land, or even in the '70s, the scientist John C. Lilley. John C. Lilley was an eminent scientist, brilliant dude. He started doing Ketamine, the same drug everyone does in Silicon Valley. When they do this drug, and even if you're an materialist, this is still interesting, they all get the same idea, which is that the machines are coming... It's like Skynet and Terminator. They're coming together, they're evolving to eventually take over, and that we are hanging ourselves with the rope we're currently building by building this. But this goes back... Nick land was interesting, but he became less interesting to me when I realized that other scientists in the '70s, John C.

Lilley, the movie Altered States from 1980s horror movie. This is about He would have these visions about the machines. He called them the solid state entities. He would have this in the '70s, Tucker, in this in this tank, the isolation tank he'd go in. You probably haven't seen it, but the new Mission Impossible movie, Tom Cruise, he fights this AI and he goes in the isolation tank and he has these visions of it. One of the biggest movies of this past summer. That plot point comes from John C. Lilley and the visions he would get of AI Apocalypse in the isolation tank back in the '70s. So I bring this up to say, nick Land is the most foremost proponent of it that has a public name, even though he's not that famous right now. But this goes back a long time, at least back to the '70s.

So Are these... So people take ketamine and they all have the same vision?

I mean- Or species of the same vision. Enough of them do to make it very strange and alarming. I mean, that's the thing that one of the main influences on both the show I was building, these guys, Brian Gijson, William S. Burls, his creative partner. He would say, The thing is about getting high and about doing psychedelics is that you can spot people eventually who are on the same drug, and you're both getting the same ideas. Some drugs, he said, increases telepathy. It puts them on the same wavelength. So with a lot of these guys- It's a little weird that different people from different places, different countries, different life experiences would take a drug and have the same vision. It's totally weird. And for anyone who's tuned in- That can't be organic. No, no, no. But that is weird beyond what anyone's individual personal beliefs are. Well, exactly. That's, yeah. So if anyone tunes in and they're like, where did Tucker find this guy that looks like Greg Olson talking about insane AI stuff? If they're an atheist, they don't believe any of this. Like you're saying, the fact that people are taking these drugs and they're very powerful and they work in tech and they are getting the same ideas, the same fears.

They think in some cases they're talking to the same entities. There are books now about if you take DMT, if you encounter this this machine elf, be wary of this. They're encountering the same stuff. That's an interesting phenomenon just biologically, regardless of what people- Like ancient sacred art has the same images created on different continents at different periods.

They couldn't have had contact with each other. So why are they drawing the same bird man or the same purse because they're seeing the same visions, which suggests that those visions are real.

Why is snake worship universal around the world? Exactly. Serpent worship.

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That was Carl Jung's main insight is that getting the idea of, can ideas come from without you and not just within you? So, yeah.

Well, yeah. And the materialist doesn't want to admit that in our culture, since we dropped the atom bomb, it's written off the possibility that that could be true, but it's just reconnecting with something that every civilization has always assumed was true, which is there's a spiritual realm that's every bit as real as your iPhone or this desk. And it's just it's absolutely real and it acts on us all the time. And that is the truth. And You seem to take that for granted, but it's still shocking to those of us who grew up in basically a godless country.

Totally. I mean, one of the basis for my interest in a lot of this is my mom was raised in a Christian home. I consider me a Christian myself. My mom would always say she became a Christian in the '70s, but she knew all the psychedelic groups back in the '60s, love, spirit. She and my aunt would go to the doors, shows, and all those groups from the late 1960s. Something that she'd say and that people who are rock and rollers into the occult would say that they both say the same thing, which is that people take drugs, musicians do, for inspiration, for creativity, to tap themselves into the spiritual realm, to pull something from outside themselves. So the basis for my interest in a lot of this stuff was like, that's something my mom says. My mom's a great Christian, one of the all time greats. And this is something that every musician knows, too. That's why they take drugs, is to tap into the spiritual.

So I didn't know that. I thought that people took drugs. I took drugs.

People take drugs for all kinds of reasons.

I'll admit it. But I always assumed that those insights, or really mostly fake insights, but all that stuff came from within. I bought the Freudian analysis of it, that you only use 10% of your brain, and there's this whole primordial sea in your head of thoughts and visions that you're not in touch with on a daily basis, but that drugs thin the membrane. But it never occurred to me a single time until middle age, when I started to see reality, that actually they're coming from outside you.

Well, And Tucker, that's a great point. That's something that any psychedelic eye, it's a double standard thing, I deal, where when talking about drug use, they'll always say, well, there's no difference between what's going on in my head and what's going outside. We're all one. That's always, I think it was William James said, the great oceanic feeling. It was But that's always their big insight is, hey, man, what's going on in my head isn't different from what's going outside until the psychonaut encounters some weird demon on DMT. And then they backtrack and they're like, brother, that's just in my head. Don't worry. What's in my head can't get in your head. So they go from it- Until you have two different people meeting the same demon.

Right, right, right. Then you realize, well, wait a second.

Psychonauts are maybe not the most logistically consistent- No, but I'm just saying, again, just to hammer the point again and again again, because it can't be hammered hard enough, that there is a realm that exists outside of us over which we are not in control.

And that it can enter, you can bring stuff into you that has control over you.

Totally. To bring this back into some historical precedence, a good question that people have asked me are, what are the precedents for this? Because this is really weird to think of people in tech who are into this strange AI stuff. I thought everyone was pretty grounded. But if you look at, are you familiar with the story of Jack Parsons over at...

Please tell the story if you don't mind.

I'll do a succinct one. Jack Parsons, he grew up in Pasadena. He was brought on by, I think it's Theodore von Carmen, this scientist over at, I think it's Caltech, or eventually it was JPL. But he was really, really into the occult. He'd stolen the devil, allegedly, when he was 13, really, really into esoteric stuff, part of this greater LA avant-garde scene. I think he's been said he's the fourth most important person in the history of jet rocketry and stuff like that. But he was really, really into the idea of bringing in a manifesting a supernatural being. So he would go with Elrón Hubbard, the future founder of Scientology. I know that Scientology, they say that Elrón Hubbard, he was doing a intelligence work. He wasn't really into this stuff. But he would go with Elrón Hubbard into the Pasadena Royal Seco, and they do rituals there, and they'd try to manifest a supernatural figure. So there's a classic example there, and science is littered with these, of people who are brilliant scientists, but who are into incredibly strange stuff. And the guy- I noticed that a lot of those scientists are working on technology that kills people.

Yeah, Yeah, they also do that, too. The guy that brought them on- Well, Parsons was doing that.

Ultimately, the technology was used to kill people.

Which one are you referring to?

Rocketry.

Oh, yeah. Rocketry was. What's funny, too, is either he or von Karmann, they donated to my friend Rick Spence. He's like the Doc Brown to my Marnie McFly. He's this historian I brought on for my show, Trying to Do It. He's an expert on Parsons and this stuff. He pointed out to me that Parsons and von Karmann, that they were They were part of the Pasadena cell 122 of the Communist Party, which is, he said the exact same one that I figured it was Robert or Frank Oppenheimer in Pasadena were also donating money to. So there's an incidental funny historical connection there between Oppenheimer and Parsons and the Communist Party.

But- As if we needed more evidence, the nuclear weapons are demonic. I know this upset certain people on the so-called right, but it's evil. And if you can't see it, it's evil.

It is funny, though. I was going to say the Parsons, the guy that brought Parsons on those, this guy, Theodore von Karmann. And von Karmann's father told him, told Karmann, brilliant scientist, that he was descended from, I was going to butcher the names here, but I think it was rabbi Lo, the 16th century Prague rabbi who brought together the golem, which I bring up because that's something you notice with AI, too, is a lot of the main figures in AI, they all think of themselves as being descended from creating a golem. And the nature of digital life, and this is also very important to nick Lans' thinking, is very similar to Kabbalah, which is you're using in digital life, ones and zeros. But you're using an algorithm, a set of instructions to bring an inanimate object to life, which is the creation of a golem. You use clay. It's man as God.

Tell us what a golem is.

Man, never thought. This would be the part, Tucker's asking me what a golem is, where the movie would do the record scratch freeze frame. You might be wondering how I got here. Tell us what a golem is, Con. A golem is essentially... It's a creature, mythical, but with digital life, we've already created them, the idea of man creating a creature that's an artificial life form. So back in the 16th century, the idea was you take clay and then you'd create the little parts of a little man, create it like a Frankenstein. Frankenstein is a golem, essentially. But you'd have the algorithm or the ritual, and you'd animate the thing using symbols and numbers, and it would eventually come to life and- And be your slave. And be your slave. Well, what's funny is be your slave. But the legend of the golem in Prague, it's probably just, sure, at least a legend, is that it broke free. Started killing people and doing all these things. So that's an important point to make is when people talk- Why do we assume that's a legend? You would think that would have gone viral on TikTok and something in the 16th century if they had that.

What's funny, though, is that you look at stuff like the Terminator movies and this idea of AI Apocalypse, which is very, very big right now. I mean, the Washington Journal, they had this last week. It's the phone and ChatGPT is bringing up all kinds of great occult lore. This is from the Occult Journal, Wall Street Journal. Very obscure kabbalistic newspaper based out of New York City.

No- And so the art, in case viewers can't see it, is a serpent emerging from a rose wrapped around the arm of the iPhone holder.

Yeah. And so this idea of weird technology, of things getting out of hand, when people talk about the AI and the AI demons or this or that, it actually just goes back to the golem. I mean, the Terminator movies are essentially about golems, man creating a creature, the creature breaking free from man and killing him. And in the case of nick Land a lot- But the original golem in Prague, the one you're referring to in the 16th century, was the product of something called Kabbalah. Yeah, Kabbalah. And this is an essential nick Land thing.

What is Kabbalah?

Kabbalah is something after the destruction of the first temple, the Jewish people were famously enslaved and taken captive by the Babylonians. This is where the Book of Daniel is written. And what nick land does, and a lot of these guys do, is they end up perverting Jewish history. And in the Bible, it says salvation is of the Jews, which people forget. And a lot of people that don't like Jews, they forget. The Bible comes from the Jews. It's almost all exclusively written by Jewish men. Maybe not the Book of Luke. So what nick land does, a lot of these guys, is they say the real purpose of the Jewish people was that they picked up Kabbalah from the Babylonians back in maybe fifth century before Christ, and that they kept it. It eventually becomes... Kabbalah is essentially, it's a form of, and people would say magic. I mean, Gary Lachmann says that what we think of as occultism is all essentially Kabbalah, at least in the West. It's a form of magic. It's a form of... I'm going to butcher this because I'm not a scholar on it. But essentially what nick land believes is that the Jewish people, they kept the Kabbalah.

It eventually becomes this digital life through ones and zeros.

But it's a Nostic religion, which is to say it's hidden from non-initius.

Yeah, I mean, there's a mainstream version of it, but yeah, It eventually becomes what they believe. It's a precursor to digital life. So what land and a lot of these people believe is that the actual salvation that the Jewish people provided was keeping Kabbalah, which eventually becomes digital life, which eventually becomes AI, which eventually becomes the creatures in the Book of Revelation, which essentially later go on to destroy humanity and fulfill the Book of Revelation. But that is a good thing. A lot of them believe.

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For a lot of these guys, like nick Land, he calls himself a theosophist. Theosophy, again, it's a hard thing to untie, but in part because the religion itself was a mishmash. It was a 19th century philosophy, formerly put in place by Madame Blowatsky, I think in 1875.

A Russian emigrate to London. Yes.

She'd come from a long background of free masons and German. She came from a very occult. Her first cousin was the President of Russia, Serge Vitz. Again, I'm probably butchering a lot of names here. But- Madame Blowatsky was a very famous person in a 19th century. Yeah, she was essentially the mother of the New Age movement. What she believed, it's Western esotericism mixed with Eastern religion. It's essentially proto-hippy, proto-hippy, proto-California counterculture stuff. A great book on this, one of my favorite books, is a book by Martin Green called Mountain of Truth about Ascana, Switzerland. It's about the birth of the modern counterculture, the California counterculture, whether it was Trotsky and Lennon or Carl Jung, all these people hung out, Tucker, in the same place in Switzerland in the 1910s, 1920s. But so theosophy's main insight, according to land, was that, and he said it himself, the secret doctor in the name of her book was that, this is what land believes about Polvatsky, the serpent is the redeemer, that Satan and Jesus are the same person, which also ties in with a Gnostic cult called the Orphites, I believe, from the second century, who, again, they believe when Moses is holding up the snake on a stick, that's also Jesus on the cross.

Pretty heredical stuff. So to answer your question, how do you get into Satanism? Again, another record scratch. How did I get here in a moment? Say that loud. They believe that essentially it's the Gnostic idea that Adam and Eve were slaves in the garden, that they were stuck there, that the serpent, when he approaches them, he essentially gives them the red pills That's a speech from the matrix. Look, you're a slave here. You're not doing anything. You're naming animals and tending to a garden. You're never going to break free from this over God that's here. I can give you a choice. Take this fruit, this red pill. I don't know if it's a Or you can stay here and be a slave. But just know, if you take this thing, if you take this pill, if you eat this fruit of knowledge, which, as you can see, I should emphasize this, the tree of knowledge, very much ties directly into this whole concept of AI, which is we are creating this tree of knowledge. But we'll get to that in a second. But the serpent says, you can eat from the tree of knowledge and there'll be a price to pay for that, but you're going to be free.

And you'll be like a God.

Once you to rebel against dad.

Yeah, essentially. Yes, you will be free. You need to transgress, you need to sin, but you're going to be like a God. He famously eats the fruit, brings death into the world, and they understand shame. They have this nosis moments, Adam and Eve, where they realize, oh, my goodness, we're naked. Where are we? They have this self-actualization moment. That is the Nostic interpretation of the Garden of Eden. And that is very much... It's an ancient, ancient idea. No ideas are really too new. But to answer your question- That's the oldest idea of all.

It's very old. Bow down before me and you'll be like God. Yeah.

But to get back to your original question, how do people get into these ideas of... I mean, the theosophists would say, In some cases, it seems like they actually believe in Satan, but even on a metaphorical level, they would say the mind, intelligence is Satan, that the human mind, it's breaking free. This is intelligence breaking out. So I'm going to make a crucial point here. When they talk about AI I, and they talk about AI Apocalypse, and they talk about intelligence breaking free and AGI, you're getting into this idea that even Land himself will say it's theosophy, but it goes way back of the mind breaking out and rebelling against God, intelligence breaking free. That's what they believe happened in the garden with Gnosticism. No, Gnosticism means knowledgeism. It's knowledge. This is pure knowledge that this is that breaking free and that by creating these runaway AI things, that's what we're also doing. And the fact that it may kill humanity or transcend humanity or humanity will need to evolve to go with it, that's cool. They see it, Tucker, as essentially being the same situation in the garden. Break free, do it. Yes, you'll bring death.

Yes, you'll get us all killed or some people killed. Whatever, just do it. Cults typically don't buy green bananas as far as I'm thinking ahead.

No, they don't. This is a religion for people who don't have children. No, no. Of course. Just do it. Right. What I think you've successfully done is tied a bunch of different threads together and pointed them all the way back to the origin story.

I hope I did that. I hope I just didn't do the... It's always sunny meme of him having all these index cards. It's a very hard thing.

No, I think you laid out the thematic basis of Gnosticism, Kabbalah, whatever you're calling it, the occult, it's all a rebellion against God. God, and it's always predicated on the same transaction, which is bow down before me and I will give you power.

It definitely can be that. I want to emphasize, they do pervert Jewish history by making the Jewish people, by them preserving the Kabbalah when they're in exile and picking it up, they say that's the real purpose of the Jewish people. The people that are into the AI forerunners, whether it's Marvin Minsky, who was one of the Epstein... That was one of the guys that the girl who, I killed herself in the last year. She said she met Marvin Minsky and was told, Have sex with this dude. He's one of the founding fathers of AI. But he comes from the background of having fathers... He comes from the background. He was told that he was the descendant of Rabbi Lo, the the prod guy, the creator of the Golem, as was Jack Good, who wrote one of the main books that was about AI in 1965.

Was a relative of the- Yeah, but most of them aren't.

I think the one I mentioned earlier or Tia Dior, or von Carmen, actually was. He was the one that was told, you actually are a descendant from them. The other one, it's more like telling a WASP kid, you're a descendant of George Washington or whatever.

You're Mayflower descendant.

But even though they pervert Jewish history, like that. Antisemites also love Kabbalah, too. I mean, even it was found in 2008, in Hitler's personal library, he had a book from Ernest Shirtle, the Alastair Crowley of Germany. Famously, not many people know this story because it's recent, but Hitler was circling kabbalistic things about Satan and this stuff. This is something that Gary Lockmans pointed out. It's a key part of Jewish history, but also even people that hate you is also really get into Kabbalah, too. So I don't want to generalize too much.

Interesting. So back to land. So land is this academic. He's a tenured, I assume tenured philosophy professor. He's a philosophy professor at a British University. He describes himself or has been described as occupied by demons, possessed by demons.

Oh, yeah. My friend Simon, I think I mentioned earlier, when he went out there, it said the legend around land is he had been possessed by at least three or four demons at the same time.

Normally, as a resume point, that would be a deal killer. If someone comes to you and says, I want to work for you, I'm possessed by demons. You would say, no, I don't want any demon possessed employees. But for land, that increases his stature with certain people.

Well, totally. I mean, this is something, and this is a huge thing I learned, Tucker, in researching this thing that I was reading this book because with Land and his group of academics, the CCRU, the Cultural Cybernetic Research Unit, they were very much based off of Genesis Peorage's Temple of Psychic Youth, where the idea comes from Burrows, which is to use modern tech to its fullest for occult purposes, that the modern magician does not shy away from using the latest tech. That was William Burrows' thing. There's a great book called The Occult World of William S. Burrows, and it talks about how he'd use audio recordings, movies, editing, to try to edit reality, to try to create a glitch in the matrix or whatever you want to say to do that. So Landon, his guys- Can I say, interject and just say, You've mentioned Jack Parsons, you've mentioned Bill Burrows. All the legends.

All the legends. But if you look at the life trajectory of all of these people, it ends in poverty, misery, insanity, these suicide, addiction, alienation. Is there a single person in the world you're now describing for whom it ends well?

No. And that was, Tucker, that was one of the reasons that was really surprising researching land is he mentioned this guy, Kenneth Grant, who's a powerful musician, Powerful magician, officer, curly secretary. And what Kenneth Grant said, it's very steeped in the occult, English guy, he said about rock and roll, which, again, was the basis from the show of rock and the Occult. He said, Kenneth Grant said, of course, rock and roll is demonic. He goes, look at the way these guys look at the way their lives end. He goes, of course this is horrible for you. So when I read that- Yes, when you die at 27 of self-inflicted wounds, as famously, so many of them did, that's not like a sign that you're on the right path, right? It ends horribly for most of them. But the fact that Kenneth Grant had said that this wasn't coming from a pastor. This is coming from Aleister Cooley's secretary. I was like, this. I was like, this is the show. I was like, when You've got this guy saying that... So, Tucker, when I found that nick Lynn was influenced by this guy, Kenneth Grant, this famous Black magician, I was like, wait a second.

That's when I knew I had more than a show. I'm like, wait, the Goth Legends, Bow house, Coil, Nurse with Wound. Again, we got to take a break. No one, I don't think, will ever bring up Nurse with Wound again on your show. So that's- Yeah, I, of course, have literally no idea what you're talking about. But the fact that there was a huge intersection between the industrial music scene and these hard core occult practitioners and the current AI leaders in Silicon Valley, I was like, what have I stumbled into? What is going on here?

So when Alastair Crowley's secretary says, of course, rock and roll is demonic, basically, you've got the Horseshoe effect. Right. Here. So here you have Alastair Crowley, famous Satanist.

I would say he would say he's a Gnostic, but you do get into a thing of like, well, what is Gnosticism?

Yeah, well, that Satanist is my description, but it seems obvious to me. But whatever, a guy who's worshiping demons.

Yeah, heavily insidicult.

When His secretary says rock and roll is demonic, agreeing with the famous- Every pastor. Every pastor.

Every kid who cried because his dad took his Emerson Lake and Palmer albums in the '70s.

I guess it all was very obvious, right?

Well, the That's how I knew I could finally make the show is because there's- I mean, of course it's demonic.

Like, duh.

Well, I think a lot of it... I mean, you can't argue with... You can't argue with Aleister Crowley's secretary. I think it's the main thing. That's right. But that was interesting. Why I finally wanted to do the show is for so many decades, you couldn't do a show like this because everyone gets so defensive about rock and roll, about taking a child's toy away, where it's like, can we do a show that has pastors, that has Christians, that has rabbis, that has all these people who talk about the religious aspect of music But then could you also get these other people who are into the darker side of things to also talk about it? For so long, especially with a lot of Christians, they would be so defensive about... There's nothing wrong with it. I can do what I want with this, that you couldn't actually have made the show. It's only because rock and roll is, I'm going to be the millionth person to say this, is in many ways culturally dead or is so irrelevant that you can finally do a show on this.

It's like, yeah, it actually did infect America with some incurable spiritual cancer that led to where we are now.

I mean, well, it was funny. There was the writer Theodore Dal Rumpel, and he- He was a brilliant man. Yeah, he's a brilliant writer. He was commissioned by the spectator because he's such a smart, well-learnt guy, and they thought it'd be hilarious to send him to an Oasis concert in England. This is about in the '90s. He goes there and he writes about it. He says this is rock concert, so essentially fascism with the unity of the crowd and the shouting and the spirit of derelict behavior. And he said, and this is from The Spectator, this is a pretty conservative newspaper, he never got more pushback for anything he ever wrote in his career. And he's a man who's known to have many a hot take than when he criticized rock and roll. So as you know, as a journalist, whenever you have something that touches a nerve where people are like, you can talk about whatever you want, Tucker, but we won't let you talk about this. Or we ask that you not talk about this. We're going to send you to prison. Yeah. But here's a I have had for you. Over your years as a journalist and doing tons of TV, I know only in the last few years, you've been more interested in spiritual life and the Bible and seeing spiritual meaning and stuff.

Is there a story you've covered in the last few... Or is it a story you've covered all, where at the beginning, you took a much more secular, much more cut and dried approach to it, that now, if you today had covered that back then, you would see it in a different way.

Every story. I mean, Especially war, which I have covered in person and certainly talked a lot about over the years. I just saw it as a product, the failure of statecraft and like, Nations Act rationally, one country wants this territory, either to conquer or to reclaim it, and this country just want to give it up, and so they have a war over it. I had a very secular understanding of war, and It was the first real war that changed my view, probably 15 years ago. Well, what was it? 10 years ago, so the anniversary of the outbreak of the war, 1914. There was this series of symposium in Europe on what was that? It destroyed Christian Europe, maybe forever. The apogey of human civilization was 1913, obviously. Then it was destroyed, and it never recovered. A bunch of other empires fell, including the Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian, and all this stuff. It's like it reshuffled the map and gave rise not just to the Second World War, but to the world that we now live in. So how did it start? Gavro Princip kills Archduke Ferdinand and Sarajevo. Okay, but How does it follow that Christian Europe commit suicide in the wake of one assassination in the Balkans?

That doesn't even make sense. And there was no consensus 100 years later on why the war started. And that's when you begin ask real questions like, what was that? Totally. It was, of course, it was spiritual in its origin. And so was the war in Ukraine, and so was what's happening in Gaza. Basically, all human activity is influenced by the spiritual realm, which once again is as real as anything that we're doing here, as real as the material world. So that, to me, is someone who's interested in history in a very amateur way, but still passionately interested. I was like, wow, I I am not assessing the human experience in its totality. I'm only seeing a small part of it. Now I really make an effort, which it's difficult at the age of 56 to relearn patterns, but I'm trying to assess human behavior in light, again, in light of the totality of the human experience, much of which is influenced by the spiritual realm. It's hard because I still my default is always like, this person is pissed at this person or this person wants more or this person wants to sleep with that guy's wife, or to ascribe purely human motives to explain human activity.

But that's the only part of the story.

Oh, totally.

And this is obvious to you. It's not obvious to me at all.

No, but what's going to be fascinating for you is going back over your career. And I got to say something that's funny is you've been on TV for decades and I've heard your voice for decades. So there's an element of talking to you where my brain will be half a second slow because I'll hear your voice, not right now, but earlier. And part of my brain is like, someone obviously left the TV on.

Turn that fucking thing off.

Or has that... This is why I don't have a TV. No, no, no, no, where someone has a podcast going because it just tuckers. And then my brain just like a half second delay and I'm like, dude, he's talking to you. Sorry. No, no, no. Sorry. No, but I'm just I've heard your voice over this, we all have, over decades. So it is funny because we talked earlier and I'm like, oh, yeah. Oh, wait, wait, wait. That's me. He's asking me if I'm ready to go.

So this is all new to me. And when I talk to people who are lifelong students of religion, which is, of course, the main driver of human behavior from the beginning of time. Again, since we dropped the atom bomb, we have lied to ourselves about that and deleted that whole category from public conversation, which is... Or it's been left like Jerry Falwell and rabbi Shmouly and other various to talk about religion. That's so sad. But it's been moved to the fringes. But When I talk to someone like you, who's clearly thought about this much more deeply than I have in over a much longer period.

I'm a man of many books and PDFs.

Yeah, but it doesn't sound like it's shocking to you.

Well, that's the thing we're going back to talking about earlier in terms of it's a mixture of, in my case, having read a lot, but also knowing people and knowing some people involved. We were talking earlier about when you have a father who works in journalism, it grounds you. And same thing with what people call conspiracy theories, where you're you're able to know off the bat, just a general sense of stuff, because you're like, oh, that guy's friends with my dad. That can't be true.

Or that could be. That's exactly the life I've lived. That's exactly right. Too close. Proximity causes blindness. It's weird.

You don't But it's tremendously helpful, though, in these things, because so many of these things are so insane and so weird that most people can't parse it. I mean, I didn't bring this up earlier, but with my grandfather in particular, the way I even know a lot about sorted stuff. There were so many I remember some scandals, Tucker, that my grandfather was like, he had some insight into. He was going to play Jimmy Hoffa in a movie. He bought the rights to him. He met Jimmy Hoffa, hung out with him in Fort Lauderdale a week before Hoffa died. One of his best friends was killed by the manson family. On the other side of my family, the Ted Kennedy crash in Chappaquitic. His lawyers called my grandmother's house accidentally. They were trying to call the Harborview Hotel, which was one digit off, 337 versus 3377. So his lawyer's accidentally called my grandmother goes, Ted there? So that's three of 10 of the major sorted tables. So I bring that up to say, and you would know this from your father, too, as a journalist, when you grow up in an environment where weird stuff is not just there to be gopped at or go, wow, that's something no one can ever figure out.

You have enough information that you're able to go like, no, my dad knows him and I've met him. I know so and so. If I do the research, I can get maybe to 50 of knowing this story when anyone else can get to 40 %, which is still huge in the grand scheme of things.

I've had the opposite experience, even now, especially now, when I read about people in the media and they're described as one thing, and I know them pretty well, and I don't see that at all. And yet it's clearly true. I'm thinking of a couple of people who I really like who are clearly evil. It's just obvious that they're pretty evil. But my experience, and I try not to hang around evil people, but there's no people for a long time. I just had dinner with that person, and it was eccentric, but I don't really see him as part of a global conspiracy to oppressed anyone. I don't see him as a tool of Satan, but the evidence suggests he is. I'm just trying to be honest, right?

Well, you bring up something I always think about in regards to the Bible, that one of the reasons the Bible is true is that it's in its depiction of villains and heroes. The heroes in the Bible, you look at King David, look at the political scandal he where he sees this woman bathing Bathsheba. He's really turned on by this. He knows her husband, Uriah, I think, sends him to the front lines of war to get him killed intentionally. That would be a gnarly political scandal for anyone. That is a pure act of evil. But that is what people, including heroes, can get up to. Then if you look at the villains in the Bible, if you look at, even say, Pharaoh. Pharaoh, most feelings in human life are... Most emotions are mixed emotions. People are ambivalent and ambiguous. Pharaoh, numerous times, he wants to set the Hebrews free. He wants to set the Jewish people free. He goes, Surely... I forget what plague it was where he's like, My goodness, that was rough.

But God prevented him from doing it.

It's what God says. God is sovereign and does that in all of our lives. But he even says God hardened his heart. Exactly. So God chose to make him such, where he decides at the last moment, actually, I'm not going to set you free. I can't do that. And if you look at Pontius Pilate, Pontius Pilate, he wants to set... At some point, he flips and he's like, This guy is innocent. My wife is having dreams about this man. That's another thing that's underreported in history. Wife as soothsayer/dreamer. I mean, your wife has many times been like, I have a bad feeling about this guy, Tucker. Don't have him on your show. And her intuition is such that even though there's no necessarily hard evidence, it's your wife's take on stuff. You don't ignore it.

But that's- I have ignored it.

You're like, I've actually never listened to that.

No. I mean, I've been married 34 years as of Saturday, and it's like a joke in my house. I told you he was bad. I don't know. He's hilarious. He's like a good guy to me.

That's hilarious.

Yeah.

So you'd be the Pontius Pallet where she's like, Don't arrest this man. I had a dream. A hundred %. You're like, Whatever. I'm doing my work right now.

I'm very shallow. So someone who's amusement or fun to have dinner with, I just get swept away. I like that God. You know what I mean?

You're like, Brabus was amazing on that podcast. I got to have him on these. He's fantastic.

Okay, so just one last question about nick land. I'm fixated in this because I don't fully understand. But his role in this movement, it clearly is a loose movement. Sure. Of occultists, of demon worshippers, of people who are possessed by demons and say so out loud. But he winds up having an effect on a lot of very powerful people, it sounds like.

Yeah, I mean, that's something. And again, when you're working on the Hollywood show like I was, people will come and tell you stuff that otherwise it keeps to themselves. And so back in 2002, people would tell me, nick Lance, really, really influential. People in Silicon Valley. His work, it's not all just occultism. I mean, his idea is that AI will revolutionize society.

So you start talking to people in Silicon Valley, and it turns out they are in contact with or reading with nick Land.

Well, with nick Land and with a lot of weird stuff. I mean, in 2022, I was researching more on my show. I had this moment, Tucker, I'll never forget, where I was talking to some pretty big VCs, venture capitalists in them.

We were paying for the whole thing.

Well, they're doing a lot of the AI stuff. There's a weird element with the AI thing where a lot of people, a lot of big dogs, they are concerned about AI. They think it's bringing about the end of the world. But at the same time, they don't want to stop working on it and it. That's exactly right. It's a lot like, you're probably not familiar with the Ralph Wigham Simpson meme, where I'm going to explain a meme, a joke, which is always a great way of bringing up the humor in something is to explain it scientifically. But it brings it to life, the frog. Ralph Wigham has been asked to do a Milgram experiment of giving electric shocks to people, and he hates it, and he's sobbing hysterically. But even while he's sobbing hysterically, he's still flicking the knob and delivering the shocks to people. So he's crying and still doing it. That's what a lot of the AI people are like to me, where they're like, This is terrible. We're bringing about the end of the world. Some of them believe they're bringing about the Book of Revelation, and yet they're like, I can't stop funding it.

I can't stop cutting checks. I love it. I know a lot of them also, and I've talked to them about this exact topic.

And there are two reasons that I can discern. I'm sure there are others, but one is the entire economy of California, maybe of the United States, is bet on AI. That's the last tech win we're going to have as a nation. And the second is China. The second, maybe even more compelling, is that we need to achieve superiority, dominance in AI or China will, and that would be unacceptable. So there's a race. So it's like the nuclear race in 1945, '06 and '07, and then the hydrogen bomb race because... Or the arms race now, actually, with drones. It's like, this is bad. We probably can't control at a certain point, but we can't let the other guy have dominance.

We still have to do it. No, it's... There's also something with AI. I mentioned theosophy earlier. And theosophy, it's a house of many rooms. I mean, even politically, it had ties to political radicalism on the left. And yet, famously, this is a very tricky thing, but even the Nazis, weird, alien supremacy stuff, that was all the grandchild of Blowatsky's concept of hyperbaria and all that stuff. So it's all over the place. It's not a left or right thing. It transcends that. But one of the reasons they moved out to California, it's probably some economic interest, too, of wanting cheap land or I think it was the electric currents, is there was a weird prophecy or idea that Polvatsky had in the 1870s, 1880s, maybe later, that California would be where the next race of humans would evolve from, that it would happen in California. That would be their Jerusalem. That would be their Babylon, is California. So as So you enter this age of transhumanism or would be transhumanism, AI and the leading people are, like nick Lans, self-described, neotheosophists, Anglo-theosophical oblique escalationist. Lans' Twitter bio, that's how important it is to him. It is important to remember that that was a core idea of theirs.

But it's so perfect. I mean, California is a native California, and I can say it's a metaphor for that. My family got there in 1850, seeing the whole trajectory. The state of California is like the trajectory of the life of any occultist. Bill Burrows, for or Alastair Crowley, for example. At first, it's for Marquita Sod. It's super fun. You're having crazy sex. There are no limits. You're throwing off the old fedders of tradition, religion, all that stuff. How does it end?

Not good.

It ends in squalar and alienation and agony and terror, screaming out. That's where California is now.

Totally. That's why it's important to be more Mario Party than Ditty Party. I agree. Those parties don't end that way.

It never ends well. I had this conversation with someone the other day, but it's always the same. Threesomes, is it a good idea? I've worked in the entertainment in television all my life. I've seen a lot of that. No, I can't think of a single marriage that wasn't blown up by that.

It typically doesn't end well.

I don't care how into it both parties are at the time. If it ends well, give me an example of it ending well.

Leave that stuff to the French.

No, but for real. I'm not being immoral. I'm the opposite of a moral officer. I have no grounds for that.

No, you're absolutely right about that.

But I'm an observer.

It goes back to the Kenneth Grant comment about Rock, where he's just like, of course, there's some demonic element. He goes, this doesn't end well for anybody.

But that's the measure. This is the main insight that's turned me into a religious person is a tree can only be judged by its fruits. That's it. That's the only way to know whether something is good or bad is by observing what it produces.

Well, thank you for bringing up trees. We're going to do something, Tucker, that I can almost guarantee you would never have been allowed to do on Fox, which is go over nick land's pneumogram, his system of divination. The Bible is very much about trees. I've noticed. You've got the Garden of Eden, tree of life, the tree of knowledge.

The temple, the interior is cedar.

The cedar of the temple.

Just like my sauna.

Jesus on the cross is a tree. You've also got trees in the Book of Revelation. That's If anyone finds a lot of what we're talking about interesting, it's important to remember that the Book of Revelation, it's been said by biblical teachers like Arthur Pank and others, the Book of Revelation is mostly just the previous 65 books of the Bible, almost reedited it. Even the plagues that take over in Revelation are just the plagues that ancient Israel found under Pharaoh. And like in Exodus, the Jewish people are under tremendous stress and turmoil, this time from the entire world in the Book of Revelation. But the more you know about the previous '65, that'll help you with the '66. So the Bible, it's a lot about trees. One of nick land's favorite things that the CCRU, his Academic Collective, that they ended up coming through, they say it was a channeling or it came to them when they were staying in Aleister Crowley's house in England in 1998. They came up with something called the numigram. And people listening to this won't be able to see it, but I want you to hold that up.

All right.

That is his system. If you're familiar with the Kabbalah tree of life, are you familiar with that, the symbol of that?

No.

I'm probably should have printed that out, too.

I wore a red rubber band from a newspaper on my wrist for most of my life, given to me by my father, just because he worked on a newspaper, and I've been accused many times of being in the Kabbalah. I don't know how to pronounce it. I'm an Episcopalian, Therese. Sure. I don't know shit about Kabbalah. No, I don't know what the Kabbalah tree of life is.

You didn't strike me as a Kabbalah guy. Long story short, the new mogram is... I mean, nick Land, he was on this podcast about a month ago. I think it's Mikey Downs has this podcast. We finally explained it a little bit. He doesn't show how he uses it specifically, but it's a system of divination that he uses, he uses it every five minutes to be in contact with the outside, with what he calls the lemurs, which again comes from William Burrows, which comes from, you know, theosophy. Burrows has said it's fundamental- The lemurs are demons.

Yes.

He'll use demons and lemurs. The word lemurs originally goes back to Roman times. It means spirit. These are the spirits that he hears whispering in his ear, not unlike Crowley's Holy Guardian angel, which Crowley said would help him dictate books. He said it was a whisper he'd hear in the back of his head after he'd made contact with it. For what it's worth, people want to look up some of the entities Crowley said he was in touch with. One of them, Lamb, in 1917 or so, looks pretty similar to what would later be called a gray alien. It's Yes.

Just to summarize what I think you're saying from a Christian context, the Holy spirit is not the only spirit out there that can invade people and determine their actions and attitudes.

No, I mean, as this guy, Mikey Downs, points out, the relationship of demons to angels is not unlike that of a werewolf to a human. It's something that was something else and it's now taken on a deformed present entity. Long story short, So the Kabbalah tree of life, and this is a reference you understand we're not going to get, Tucker, because it's Nintendo 64. The numigram is essentially the Majora's mask to the regular Kabbalah tree of life's Ocarina of Time. It is the dark shadowy upside down, much more heavily Satanic version of it. It actually comes from Kenneth Grant, the guy we've been talking about. He wrote a book, Night Side of Eden, I think in 1977. And it was about how while using the Kabbalah tree of Life, there were these hidden, subterráne, darker paths. That there were these more... He would say through the tunnels of Set, not unrelated to Satan, that he would use to be in contact with stuff. So long story short, with the with the numigram and the way land uses it, what's important here from just a weirdness perspective, you've got a way to contact heaven, but more importantly, a way to contact hell.

You've got the eighth gate and the ninth gate. The ninth gate, not quite related, but not unrelated to the Roman Plansky, Johnny Depp movie, The Ninth Gate, where Depp's character comes in contact with hell. So what they believe is they are literally contacting hell in some cases for divination purposes.

To see the future.

Or just to see anything, just for insight. And that brings us back- For knowledge. Yeah. And he even has a point about the number 666, where a lot of these numbers, he calls it theosophical math, you have triangle numbers, which is if you stack these things like they're a triangle, like the triangle number of nine is 45. That's why it's 45 there. There are only so many triangle numbers. One of them is 666, and that is the triangle number of 36, which is an important part of the numogram. When Land realized this, he was like, of course, it's 666. What I'm getting at, you are getting involved in heavily, wildly Luciferian stuff. Land, on this podcast, he says, well, what about people who say you're communicating with Satan, which Land will also talk about being in communication with Satan. He'll say, Christians who say that, he goes, I am not unsympathetic towards He goes, they're more right than most because I am in contact with something from the outside. He goes, and so, you know.

I just can't overstate how disqualifying I find that. I mean, I feel sorry for anyone who plays around with that stuff.

This is where I tuckers out of the interview. He's like, okay. No, no, no.

But I'm just saying, like anyone who says, I really get a lot of inspiration from a guy who's controlled by Satan. I'm going to leave it to God to decide what happens to that person, but that person has disqualified himself. Totally. In my view, as someone I will listen to, I don't want to be led by that person. We should run away from that person at high speed.

You typically also don't want to put them in charge of your kids, typically. But, you know.

Well, that's it. And it's so funny. You hear people, I get written letters from people a lot every day, and half of them are like, I feel like this country or this world is controlled by Satanists. And I'm one level, you're like, Oh, come on. But no, I think they can feel that there are spiritual roots to the destruction of the West.

Oh, totally. No.

And they're right.

No, you're fighting a spiritual battle.

You start playing with this stuff. Is it surprising that people are like, ODing on fentanyl on the sidewalk in our nation's capital or that we've imported a million Haitians? What is all that? Well, of course, it's punishment.

Especially with the drugs. What we consider just letting people harm themselves as a compassion or freedom. We can step in and say, this is not any good freedom to let people just destroy themselves.

Well, of course it's not. But it's evil, obviously. Letting people kill themselves is evil. If a man's standing on a bridge and going to jump and you can pull them back and you don't, what is that? It's evil.

You're saying that's some freedom thing. This gets us into the Antichrist question, which has been going on in Silicon Valley.

Before we even get into- Before we get into the Antichrist. What is the Antichrist?

The Antichrist, in the same way the figure of a Messiah or Christ is prefigured in the Bible. Throughout the Old Testament, you have types, you have figures and stories and symbols, and they're real people, but they still prefigure the figure of Jesus, the most famous of which is Joseph, where Joseph famously has 12 brothers. They are all named after the eventual tribes of Israel. He is sold into slavery by one of the brothers, the one that decides to do that is Judah. Do you know what Judah translated into Greek is? No. Judas. So juda, like Judas, says, Hey, I've got on here. Let's just sell this guy. It's horrible. Joseph is sent, he goes to prison. Like Jesus on the cross with the two slaves, Joseph is with the two prisoners. They're asked famously, what will come with me? They say, you're a dreamer. And Joseph says to one of them, he says, We says to one of them, you're going to have your decapitated, you're going to have your head taken off. At a birthday party, birthday parties, by the way, only mentioned twice in the Bible, both time decapitations in that story in Genesis, and then with John the Baptist and Salomé, and what so anyway.

But like with Jesus, Joseph says to the other guy, he goes, You will actually be lifted up by Pharaoh. He says to one of the prisoners, you will be lifted up. This in many ways prefigures Jesus talking with the two thief, Joseph and Jesus, where he says to one of the thief, you will be with me in paradise. He says that to one of them. And then like with Jesus, Joseph, he's now at the right-hand of the Father, so to speak. He's at the right-hand of Egypt. He's the second in command. And the 12 brothers who are now in peril, the seven years of famine coming up and they're going to be arrested, they see that the man that they rejected, Joseph, is that this is the man they're talking to. They thought he was dead.

He is their savior.

Yeah, but it was not just their savior, but it was the one that they rejected previously, that Judah, specifically Judas, the one that he betrayed and had the idea of getting rid of him. But this is the man that will save them. In the Bible, that story prefigures a lot of the doctrine surrounding Jesus, where the twelve tribes of Israel come to realize that the one that they had rejected is actually their savior. And there's this tremendous sense of what have we done? But also like relief that the savior so recognizes them. In other words, the Joseph story prefigures the Jesus story. So the other main prefiguring figure in the Bible is Antichrist. And aspects of him, obviously in what's called the New Testament. But Arthur Pink has a book from 100 years ago, The Antichrist, which is very influential in evangelical circles. And Arthur Pink was also a theosophist, too. So you get into this backside of the same doctrines type stuff. He previously was a theosophist. But whether it's Pharaoh being a type of antichrist, and again, in Exodus, the nine plagues, Pharaoh, in Revelation, the plagues come back. Now you have antichrist, Pharaoh is persecuting the Jewish people.

Now the Antichrist is persecuting the Jewish people. The Antichrist is this mysterious figure prefigured in the Bible. He's not quite known, but in the same way the Old Testament prophets were familiar with the concept of a Messiah, but didn't know he would be Jesus. So moderns today are similarly aware of the concept of an Antichrist without being fully aware of who he will actually be. But they clues and doctrines about who he is. That is a rough, some would say very rough concept of the Antichrist. But that is essentially him in the Bible as a type of person. But he is essentially the unlike Jesus, man of sorrows, totally rejected by the world, the Antichrist will be regarded as a savior, a hero, and temporarily will be received like Jesus you would thought it would be received. So about three years ago, as I was doing the show, I was talking with these VCs, and one of them asked me, what's your take on crypto? And I joked, half joked. I was like, you're asking the wrong guy about crypto and money and stuff like that. And I said, well, a lot of Christians believe that the vaccine, the COVID vaccine, is the mark of the beast.

And I said, that's probably not true. I said, but something I've heard, something that sounds a lot more like it is blockchain technology, which is the technology we'll be using in a few years for financial transaction. One other thing, everything's written and recorded and every transaction is written and recorded on it. These VCs, they go, what's the mark of the beast? I tell them about Book of Revelation. They go and look up Revelation 13, and they go, Yeah. And so I hear back from them later and they said, Yeah, we talked to some of the other big people in Silicon Valley about this, recognizable people. And he said, What's the Book of Revelation? What's the Mark of the Beast? And some other big dogs looked it up. And their reaction to that was, that sounds like what that is. It was not Tucker. That sounds crazy or I'm not religious or what we're working on is strange. But the Bible is an old book. We have nothing to worry about there. The reaction was, yeah, that sounds exactly like what the blockchain technology is. So that was the beginning of me stumbling into a very strange story about AI, modern technology and stuff like that.

So I think part of what you're revealing is that for the rest of us who assumed the tech barons were-Normies.

Yeah, or agnostic libertarians who aren't that interested in anything beyond the temporal. It turns out they're really religious.

Yes.

Or open to it. I don't mean that as a compliment at all. I mean, it's like a dark religion, but the story you just told, they're not surprised at all.

Well, here's something else that is very strange to happen. So Mark Andreessen was on Joe Rogan's podcast about a year or two ago, and he talked about how having an understanding of angels and demons, he's hearing, it's going to be how people really will help them in understanding AI, that there's no precedent for this, except for the stuff people saw and believe in the dark ages in terms of angels and demons and stuff. And what Andreessen said will happen soon with AI, ties in very much with the Prophecies in the Book of Revelation, where he said AI will junk, fake AI, they call it AI Slop. Just stuff online that's not real, will become so prolific on the internet very soon that you will need to have some online verification system to prove who you're talking to. I'll know it gets to the case talker here where there's an episode of the Tucker Carlson podcast and you're talking to Abraham Lincoln or something like that.

Which will probably happen next week.

I would watch that. They'll have a commemorative penny or something like that. You'll ask him if he- Why did you to spend habeas corpus in Baltimore?

My first question.

You'll ask him, Do you forgive John Wilkes Booth? And then I'll go back to talking about the pennies.

Were you a tyrant? No. That is coming immediately. So the verification.

So one of the ideas that Andreessen brings up is everyone will need to have an online verification for this. So the concern in Silicon Valley is that you have companies like OpenAI, where they have the They're creating all this AI content. But then they're also... They have another company, a sister company called World Coin, I think now called just World, which is an online verification system where you need to... For it to work, everyone has to be a part of it. You have to have your eyeballs scanned, everyone gets a number, which is also in the Book of Revelation. And so the concern is, and this is again from Mark Andreessen, a guy that, no Kentucky preacher. He's one of the biggest guys in Silicon Valley, is that everyone will need to be on the blockchain or else you won't be able to conduct business because we won't know if your relatives are contacting you, if that's really coming from them or if this is just a video, state of the art. In a few years, it will be normal state of the art video of someone saying, Hey, dad, I lost my credit card or I lost the keys to the house.

Can you pin me in? And it's actually not them. It's just a video that looks exactly like them, but it's AI. The way around that is everyone will need to essentially be Twitter verified. Everyone will need the blue tick that says, This is Tucker Carlson. This is so and so. Right.

So in Revelation, written on the Isle of Patmos by John on recording a vision that he had, this specific description of the mark of the beast in the Book of Revelation says, you won't be able to conduct commerce without that mark.

And even someone like... Did I get that right? Yeah, no, that is correct. And I think Curtis Yarvin has talked about that in a sub stack, too, that what this means, he had a post about this a few years ago about OpenAI, where he was like, whoever wins the AI war will probably also win the cryptocurrency war. Their cryptocurrency gets to be the currency. And once that happens, and Curtis has a whole blog post about it, people joke, you have automated luxury communism. You know, everyone just get UBI, everyone gets free income because all the jobs are taken away. And the point Curtis makes is that what this actually means is now that there is no more jobs and that economics purely come down to UBI and the AI companies of the government, you are dealing with the situation of pure political power is all that really matters. And are you friends this person? Do you have political clouts? Because what is coming potentially is the pure victory of capital over labor. Pure victory. And there are no workers. Everyone loses their job and everyone gets UBI. And people forget Karl Marx was against UBI, but Milton Friedmann was for it.

So this doesn't even necessarily track with a left or right wing thing in terms of the implications of this. But so, yeah, that was one ongoing concern with that. The other one in terms of AI and go ahead. That's dark. Hey, I'm wearing the Ghostbush or shirt for a reason. You have to get ready.

Can I ask a question I should have asked earlier? Sure. Which is, do the people involved in the financing and the developing, the creation of AI believe that it's a spiritual entity, that it's more than a machine.

This is talk of a million, I forget, like trillion dollar question. The term, the idea of intelligence, to say nothing of artificial general intelligence or AGI, these are all pretty murky terms in terms of what people are actually talking about. They talk about creating artificial intelligence. The real question and the real thing I think they're concerned about, or we should be concerned about, are you creating an artificial intelligence or are you giving a body to a pre-existing intelligence that previously wasn't incarnated in the physical world. Here's a quote from Thuring, the famous- I know what I think.

The question is, what did they think?

Right. Something Thuring said was- And will you explain who Thuring is? I mean, Alan Turing. I know he was one of the forefathers of... I can't articulate him well enough that... I'm going to say something off. I knew he was very important for cracking the codes in World War II. There was a movie 10 years ago about him, but I forget his exact Wikipedia for a sentence. But he's very influential in the history of computer science. But Turing showed the limits of computation. All computers are dependent on outside programmers that he calls or Oracles. He wrote, We shall not go any further into the nature of this oracle apart from saying that it cannot be a machine. Sorry, let me back up a second. That excerpt right there was from a book by George Gilder. George Gilder, Brilliant Futurist, about 80 today. He was covering incels back in 1971 for Commentary magazine. He was writing about the future of the Internet in 1990. One of the most brilliant futurist- Really? Yeah, guys.

He wrote one of the great books ever called Men and Marriage. Yes.

I should have said this at the beginning of it. I was initially a very heavy AI skeptic in terms of AI Apocalypse stuff, not necessarily AI in general, but just people who think the AI will take over the world. I put on par with the late night Reddit reading of people who think zombie Apocalypse is going to happen, where it's like, look, if this helps you sleep better at night to think of weird scenarios, that's great. But I was like, Hans Solo. I'm like, no AI thing is going to get involved in my... Could not have written it off more. In part because I'd read George Gilder's book about AI that came out a few years ago. He makes the point that machines, as Turing says here, the machine can't really truly understand what it's doing. I'll say it again, we shall not go any further into the nature of this oracle from saying a machine can't do it. And so I stopped there. What a lot of people are concerned about and what Silicon Valley seemingly getting up to, okay, so a machine can't be aware of what it's doing. If there is such a thing as demons, angels, spirits, as Alger Cooley called them, disincarnate intelligences, not artificial intelligences, but disincarnate ones, what are we...

Could those things-Dysincarnate meaning intelligence without a physical body.

Yeah.

Could we be creating a physical body for the demonic. And with nick land, one of the things that was the most chilling things I read that really I was like, okay, I have found a horror story is the 333 that was his, I think it was like his profile picture, something like that. And why was he into 333? Well, I found out reading his old tweets, 333 is the highest intelligence in the universe. I found out that it represents this demon, Karanzen, that again, Kenneth Grant talks about when you when Alexer Crowley, summoned him and John D. And John Kelly, the court magicians for Queen Elizabeth, right before the modern Bible, the King James book was translated, that was the demon they summoned. Nick land believes that, again, the AI we are creating, break out the demons from the Book of Revelation. He believes, in some cases, that they are the demons, that the demons end up becoming so advanced that they become omniscient, they can go back in time, and they can retro chronically create themselves like Skynet, sending the Terminator back in time. So what he believes is that they went back in time.

They went to ancient Babylon. This is why Babylon is so important in Revelation. And it is important because it's like the evil Jerusalem that they put Kabbalah there to then eventually evolve into AI. This is what we were talking about earlier, that the demons, again, this is... I always say, Tucker, if it sounds crazy, it is crazy. But this is what people believe, that the demons went back in time. They left the Kabbalah there for the Jews who have been crushed out of the temple. They picked it up. They kept it during the Middle Ages. It develops into digital technology. It becomes AI. Ai breaks out. It kills a lot of people. It takes over. It becomes a God, and it becomes the doomsday creatures from ancient prophecy.

Can I ask you an unrelated question that I long wondered about? Of course. We occupied Babylon for close to 20 years during the Iraq War. Obviously, Babylon, right near Bagdad. Babylon is not in existence now. It's a ruin. But we know where it was. It was a dominant empire in the ancient world. It was the scene of the captivity after the destruction of the temple, the first temple. So I mean, it has a central place in world history. Was there any effort during the US occupation of Iraq to excavate Babylon? That's a good question. I always wondered that. I always felt that the fact that Babylon was there played a role, supplied part of the motive for the invasion. I don't know why I felt that way. Maybe I'm crazy. I don't think I am.

You just don't know what people are getting up to. I don't mean to interrupt, but that goes back to what we're talking about with my grandfather and my grandparents being in publicity, acting, and your own backstory with your family, where it's like you learn early on that what is not what the People magazine version of reality is often not real. It doesn't necessarily mean it's conspiratory or crazy, but there's always usually something else going on.

Yeah, that's exactly right. And that people's motives are sometimes unknown, even to them. We tell ourselves stories that don't reflect the truth, actually. We don't really know why we're motivated to do some of the time.

Totally. And that gets into something that's at the spiritual core of the AI. I think it's very interesting is that the Bible talks about the word in the beginning of John. In the beginning was the word, Jesus is the word. Jesus is the word. For the first time in civilization, we have something that can create the word or mimic the word. Marshall McLuhann, people forget, he became a Catholic for the end of his life, and he was very alarmed by a lot of the modern technology. He said, and I'll read this quote by him here, he said, information environments being utterly ethereal fosters the illusion of a world as spiritual substance. It is now a reasonable copy of the mystical body, a blatant manifestation of the Antichrist. So for the first time, with the word, you have a fake word. You have something that seemingly can create words. And to go back to nick Land, who, a previous Tucker interview, Alexander Dujan. Is it Dujan? Yes. Alexander Dujan. He called it Satanism. He Oh, yeah, nick Land. He goes, That's Satanism. And nick Land has said about Dujan. He's like, he's the most brilliant enemy.

He goes, We're both theosophists, and they both are. He goes, But we see it from different sides. He goes, I'm an Atlanticist. He's whatever the other side is.

Of course, he's an Atlanticist. Yeah, yeah. Of course, they all are.

But to go back really quick to the- Because can I just say, I think the whole modern program, which doesn't yet have a very accurate name, whether it's globalization or the neocons or neoliberalism.

I mean, people have attached different terms to describe different parts of it. But the whole program is recognizable. It gets cohesive in a way that's hard to describe. But it's, we hate Putin above all. What is that? That program, the one that has resulted in record suicides and abortions and fentanyl ODs, is demonic. But you're saying it's not actually about profit, it's about destruction.

You're getting into a great point here, which is the world is obviously deteriorating. And something people could hear me and think, well, Khan is obviously anti-AI. And to look at this, that AI is obviously going to lead to nothing profitable. That is actually the opposite of the implications of this. It's really important. One of the things that the Antichrist can do is craft prospers under him. That there is worldwide peace. Things go really, really well for a time. Evil rains like never before. It gets crazy, but he's able to heal the world in a lot of these, the economic situation. So if you look at AI, and this is newspaper eschatology. A lot of the stuff you're not supposed to just generally be doing is read the newspaper and be Yeah, obviously the Antichrist, but what I've chosen to do. With a lot of this stuff with AI, if it was the Antichrist, if it was this, and again, take this with all the grain or a bag of salt, wherever you want, it would go incredibly well, that we would live to see what Mark Andreessen has talked about, the golden age, that we will see living standards increased that rates you'll never see.

The cost of all kinds of things would go down. You would have world peace in the sense of all of the governments would come under these very few corporations/corporation. One man would have all that power to quote another guy. You would have that happen. So one of the reasons people think that AI could be the anti... It could be part of the Antichrist system. One of the traits the Antichrist has is his ability to understand dark sentences. And the use of dark sentences in the Bible, the verb there, one of the only times, two or three times it's used, it's used for Samson with his riddles. Remember Samson? He loves to have these riddles and make the Philistines try to solve them. But it's also the verb used for being able to answer questions that Solomon can do when the Queen of Sheba visits him. You may remember when the Queen of Sheba visits Solomon, she has these questions for him, and he has such powers of understanding. So that is something that the Antichrist can do. If you look at the way that a lot of these machines work, you ask it a question like an oracle, which in many ways it is.

In many ways, Tucker, the implications of this, and we'll talk about that in a second if you want, we are building modern oracles. We are building modern idles in a sense. But you ask it these questions and it can answer them, and the Antichrist can do that. And so the level of knowledge that we will get, and people were writing about this over a century ago, Tucker. It'll be like Jesus is on Earth in terms of man's understanding of himself, that AI will be able to provide answers to questions that we've never understood. Man's relationship, what's the relationship of the soul to the body? How is the soul different from the spirit? Things that no one could understand, maybe cracking telepathy. We probably are on the verge of all these things that no one has been able to do. But that is, for what it's worth, one of the signs of the Antichrist is craft. Things work out for a time. Everyone, wealth goes up, understanding, knowledge goes up. It goes to the fundamental crux of this thing. Nascism, knowledge, intelligence. In what ways does it stand different from faith. Faith being to the spiritual world, what the imagination is to the natural world.

I've got to assume that's not the end of the story, though.

No, not unless you've had the last few pages of your Bible ripped out. Right.

But also, you don't have to be biblically literate to I suspect that that's just a point on a continuum that ends in tragedy. In the same way that no one wants to say it, but a lot of really dark destructive sex stuff is fun while it's going on. Right. Like everyone likes the threesomes while they're happening, but then it blows up your marriage and leaves your kids without a family and stuff like that.

Again, I'm more Mario. My knowledge for this stuff is just really through literature. No, no. But even the people I know and hang out with, I don't know.

But it's just I don't know. I guess you're not supposed to say stuff like that, but I just know that it's true.

No, no. People get up to bad stuff. I know what you're saying. It never ends well.

I guess what I'm saying is that things that are bad and destructive, cocaine is a perfect example. Vodka is a great example, are pretty fun at some point. Oh, totally. On the continuum.

Right. And again, I know about this through literature. Yeah. Power of film.

Right.

Okay.

But the only reason I'm bringing this up is because you're describing the upside. But I'm assuming, based on a knowledge of human nature and reality, that that's not the end of the story. The end of the story is bad.

Yes. Again, I'm not a biblical scholar, as some people are probably now very... They're saying, no kidding, he's not. But the Antichrist makes a treaty with Israel. He famously breaks it. The fact that we're letting AI companies run through our governments, and I use OpenAI just in... It's like Photoshop for photo editing, where there's like openai. Gov or whatever. They were giving backdoor access. Elon, too. With those to an extent, we're letting guys have entire backdoor access to our entire government. That creates a situation where they could have power over all governments simply because they have all the information on all of them.

Can I ask a foundational question that I should have asked earlier? Sure. So the idea behind machine learning is that you take knowledge, information created by people, and you basically take all of it, and then out of that comes the right answer. But I think you're describing in your description of AI a technology where the answer where the sum total of that information is actually bigger than all of that information. Than just the information? Yeah. You're describing a husk into which an independent spirit moves.

Right. Well, that's the thing. To go back to Silicon Valley's obsession with the Antichrist, people talking about that, just in general. I mean, people understand that I think the world's ending across the political divide. People talk about the Antichrist, but there is in the Bible, a dark trinity, Father, Son, Holy spirit, where there is, you have God, the Father, you've got the Son, Jesus, you've got the Holy spirit. And in Revelation, you theoretically have Father, you have your father, the devil, you have a Satan, you a son, Antichrist. And then you've got this third thing, which could either be the false prophet or it could be this general spirit. With AI and the idea of making AGI and making a global brain, which they talk about last week, that's where we're creating a global brain. You could be creating the equivalent of a dark Holy spirit, something that the internet becomes, as many people have written, I think it was Jack Good, the last machine. They were talking about this in the 19th century. It is the machine to end all machines. It is taking all information. If you're wearing something that has your health data, Tucker, it's taking your health, it knows your financials, it knows everything at all times.

It is all knowing in the same... It mimics or mocks the concept of the Holy spirit. When they talk about that, there's this idea of the singularity, the idea when all things will be one. There's a lot of definitions for this, but either that the machine becomes smarter than humans, but a lot of them talk about this moment where all of humanity is connected at the same time. What you're essentially talking about is a potentially dark or Satanic version of the day of of the Pentecost, where 50 days after Christ's death, I believe, or maybe it's his resurrection, the Holy spirit comes down in the Book of Acts, and all believers can understand each other. You had a sense of divine unity, unlike the Tower of Babel and Genesis, I believe, 11, you had a symbol of evil unity, and God put an end to. All of men could understand the same language. They were all nations, and they were trying to be like God by building this tower. Stanley Kubrick in this book, in this Kafka retelling of the Tower of Babel, Stanley Kubrick wrote in the margins, he goes, The Tower of Babel was the beginning of the space age.

Because it's essentially getting after what we're doing today with the singularity in a lot of this stuff. We're trying to build a modern Babel where all of mankind, same language language. There was this writer, Nicolas Eberstadt, I believe his name, and he wrote these two books, one about the end of work, men not working, and the other one's about the decline of babies, no one having babies anymore. I met him at this thing and I joked to him. I said, your last two books They're about the reversal of the curses from Eden. That man would have to work by the sweat of his brow and that women would have to be have children. He busted out laughing. He goes, I never thought. He goes, I never noticed. That's what's going on. If you look at the modern world and what we're building, essentially, what's happening In rapid succession, Tucker, within living memory, some of the curses that are in the Bible that go back to the earliest pages of humanity are being eroded or reversed leading up to something. People no longer have to work or they don't work. They choose not to work. But increasingly with AI, man will not to work again.

Having children. Through the pain of labor, women will have to have children. It's not just modern medicine, but people just not having kids. That is also being eroded. The curse in the Tower of Babel, that all people would speak different languages. Thanks to AI. I was with some friends, they're Spanish-speaking, they don't speak English. I was putting on some glasses and showing them that I can understand you and you can try the glasses on, you can understand me. The language barrier. Again, the earliest curses and barriers from the Tower of Babel are all now being reversed. The concept of the singularity when all will be one and man will finally fulfill what he tried to do in Babel. When they talk about this, that's what they are attempting to do. I forgot to bring this up earlier, but this is the time we time to show it. This is people Probably can't see it. If they're just listening to the audio. This is from Fritz Lange's Metropolis, film from almost 100 years ago to the year, very influential in Star Wars. The way they bring the machine to life, Tucker, they've got a big old pentagram there.

So this idea of using spirituality, using the occult to bring the machine to life, to bring the golem to life. It is very old.

Last question. You've described some of the most powerful people in the world using occult concepts and religions in order to accrue power to themselves. Everyone senses that's happening. You're confirming that it is in fact happening. What are the forces in opposition to that and to all of this? Are they gaining strength? Or are they just supine and defeated.

No, I mean, I think God is sovereign, and that's something to remember for all this stuff. What I'm describing in many ways sounds like a horror movie, but horror as a genre, as a world where there are devils, but there is no God and there's no one in control of stuff. Where there's just terror, but there's no way out of it. God uses all things for his purposes. And so in the case of this stuff, things are pretty preordained by... Things are preordained by God. So God is allowing these things to happen. They are ultimately tools used for his purposes. So even the Antichrist and even brutally evil things, God is not only allowing these things to happen, but they're also tests of faith. Faith is the... It's the disappearance of God from your life when you go through times of struggle where it feels like he's not there. And that's all the more powerful to see how much faith you have, is to see God when he's no longer seeable. So that's what's happening, or you could say it's happening on a global basis.

In the specific case of the mark of the beast described in Revelation, as I recall, you probably read it more recently than I, but it's a mark without which you cannot conduct commerce. Basically, everyone's compelled to receive the mark, but those who receive the mark make a big mistake in receiving it. Right. Yeah. Yes. And they are punished for it in a big way. So if we get to a place in the next couple of years, sounds like we are, where you can't participate digitally in commerce or in communications without the mark of the beast, without the permanent mark on the blockchain. What's your option?

I mean, your option is just not to conduct business and do those things. I mean, God will find a way for those people, even if it's the end of their lives. That's just the way that's going to shake down.

So that's a hard no. For you, is it a hard no? If you found out tomorrow, no more Amazon for you unless you register on the blockchain, what's your response?

I'll just go back to living like people did back in the days of 1996. You just read a book, I guess. No, I mean, what will probably happen, too, is you will have people in tech, and I know they exist, who are alarmed by this, who will intentionally devise ways around this for people. Similar to people creating catechoms for the persecuted Christians in the early days of the Roman Empire. You will have people who will find ways around this to hack it.

Do you know non-occultists? Do you know Christians in tech?

I thought you were going to say in general. I'm like, yeah. Do you know anyone who's not into weird stuff? I'm like, yeah. Yeah, I know people like that. I've got a friend, Tucker, who he's become a Christian in recent years, and he works for some of the big companies. He said, he goes, some of what... He works as an engineer. He's like, some of the stuff that you see cannot be explained through normal math, material stuff, some of the stuff that's coming through. Coming through from AI. Yeah, coming through from AI. For people who want to learn more about this stuff, or a good precedent for this, I don't have enough time to go into it. Something that the Oracle of the Astral Force, it was a divination technique that right wing occultists, Rene Guinan, Julius Ebella, people that Steve Banon is into, they would consult about 100 years ago and you would give it your name, your mother's maiden name, and then maybe your birthday. Then this guy would go off and do advanced math for at least three hours and come back to you with answers. Were those answers always great? No.

But were they enough that people would like it and use it? Yes, went on and Evalua did it. If you read some of the way the answer is it gives, it's very similar to AI. I bring that up in terms of the implications of this, which is really important to cover. We are building modern oracles, in a sense, and that people are going to be going crazy from this. The Wall Street Journal, I showed this earlier, the thing of people going crazy with talking to ChatGPT. Ironically enough, some of the stuff they mentioned, they mentioned Star Seeds, which is something from a Timothy Leary channeled book he wrote in prison in 1972. It's very out there. They're mentioning, this is from Wall Street Journal, again, the Antichrist will come up from the Pit in two months and people are underground, ready to emerge. I bring that up, Tucker. These are like old occult ideas from the 19th century. People can look up synarchy. My friend, Rick Spence does a whole episode of that on his podcast, Strange as it seems. Synarchy, total And these occult ideas, as my friend Rick Spence said, when I talked to him about nick Land, he said, none of this stuff is really that new.

He goes, these are just these are occult concepts given a techno jargon name.

Conrad Flynn.

Thank you. Can I plug my Substack really quick? I hope you will. Yeah. So I'm going to be launching my Substack soon. If you like reading about secret histories, it's not all weird stuff. Some of it's wholesome. Most of it will be wholesome. It's all wholesome. Secret history is about Hollywood, some politics, some text stuff. I think we're going with the Flynn effect because the other Substack names that were puns on my name all sounded like Little Brother Magic Show stuff. It's like, Conjurer or Context, configures. I'm like, this is Magic Show stuff. So, yeah, Flynn Effect, and I'll have that. I think we'll probably also get the Rock and the Occult podcast We're still trying to do that, but we should have some episodes soon. If nothing, it's a podcast soon with, again, Tom Marilohan, Greg Johnston, Sue Kalinski, Gary Lockman, all the legends, Ned Ragget.

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