Transcript of The FBI Double Agent Who Targeted the GRU | Naveed Jamali New

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Yeah, absolutely. Hey everyone, welcome to The Team House. I'm Jack Murphy and we are happy to have in studio another guest. Today it's Navid Jamali. He is the author of How to Catch a Russian Spy, which is about some of your misspent youth, I think, when you were working with the FBI to help them, help the counterintelligence guys catch a Russian spy here in New York. And then you went on to have a career as a naval intelligence officer, and now you work in journalism.

Indeed.

Yeah.

It's, I mean, that's the Cliff Notes. We were talking a little before we started, just sort of our path to the military. And mine was very much a nontraditional one. So I—

Yeah.

I really— I didn't want to be a— I didn't want to be a spy. But it's this funny thing, Jack, where it's like, you know, I had wanted to get into the Navy as an intelligence officer. I applied once, didn't get in. And I thought, like, if I applied again, I had this great recruiter who was like, hey, you can apply again. You just have to show some growth. in your resume. And I know there's a lot to go into here, but basically I had this harebrained idea that if I helped the FBI with the Russians, I could literally use it as something to put on my resume to show that I had intelligence experience.

And to my surprise, that actually panned out for you somehow.

It was, it was a nightmare. And I can tell you once— I mean, I can tell everyone now, once I got into the Navy, what I realized is that these agencies don't like to play nice. So my whole thing when before the book came out is if anyone asked, and no one would because they would have no idea that I did this. I was very much I was involved in this this thing, and I didn't disclose it. But the standard line was I was involved in a successful counterintelligence operation, and then I'd pull out an FBI card and say, "If you have any questions, here's who you need to talk to," and that's all I'd say. And we were just talking about SF-86s. So when I got into the Navy and I was doing my TS, I disclosed foreign contact under official— but it was under official government, like, direction. Right, right, right. And the Navy, of course, like, well, tell us more. And the FBI was like, we're not telling you shit. And so I got stuck in this, like, ping pong between these 2 massive agencies. And it was this really funny thing in that, you know, when I was doing operational work, um, I'm sure it's like this in any, like, you know, special forces team, it's a small group.

And so you have a lot of freedom, but then when you get to like back to headquarters, the big headquarters element, it's the exact opposite. And so I was not used to operating in this very structured.

Yeah. Yeah.

And man, it did not. Yeah. You'd think that like counterintelligence experience would pan out, but like my first assignment, uh, in the military was to handle merchant, like a merchant ship database. had nothing to do with counterintelligence. So I felt like I had this vision that I was going to come in, do like CI, did not pan out that way.

So, you know, just to take it back in time a little bit, you and I are kind of from like the same area, which is interesting. As I was reading your book this week, you lived on 112th Street at one point. I lived on 112th Street when I was going to school because your parents were academics. I was going to Columbia, so I lived in student housing. You lived in Hastings-on-Hudson. That's

right.

I lived in Sleepy Hollow. So a lot of the places—

You were like 2 degrees of separation.

Your business was in Dobbs Ferry.

That's right.

I went to Mercy College my first year in Dobbs Ferry. So I mean, yeah, it's just very funny reading about—

It is.

And on top of that, reading from a new perspective because these are like This is like my hometown and where I grew up, and I didn't know that there was all this like espionage shit taking place right where we live. And so your book kind of shined a light on that.

It's it's funny. You know, I think there's there's there's a part about this that I think a lot of people don't know, but it it comes to I'm sure someone will fact check me on that. There's an international law that dictates the movement of diplomats, and basically you can move within. a 50-mile radius of your embassy or consulate without the host nation's prior approval. So I mention that because the Russians that we dealt with were at the Russian mission to the United Nations, which is on the east side. And so my parents' business was essentially as a defense contractor, and they were supplying the government with books, and it was very unexciting. But because they were a defense contractor and because they fell within this 50-mile radius, I think that's why the Russians targeted us, and they can move and come and go without obviously asking for prior approval from the US government. And so yeah, Westchester falls within that zone. So if you look at where the embassies and consulates are and just draw a 50-mile radius, you can assume that there are going to be foreign intelligence officers that are operating within that radius.

And I mean, it's worth pointing out to people who aren't aware that That UN mission is like spy central.

Oh gosh.

Because obviously all these different diplomats from different countries are there. We have all these consulates in New York City. And I mean, it's— and also the CIA has a huge station. They won't talk about it.

Of course not.

But they have a huge station in New York and by law they can't spy on Americans. Right. They're not there for that. They're there for all these foreign nationals. And that's a great place for them to try to recruit people, to stop them from spying, as you know, lots of things that they're involved in.

New York City is a cosmopolitan place. It will always, you know, they say that espionage is the second oldest profession. And in the days of AI and technology, I don't think, you know, it's going to go away. I think tactics will change.

Right.

You know, the, but the profession of like meeting someone in person, it's, becoming more and more important, right? Because with AI, with someone being behind a computer screen, you don't know who they are.

Yeah.

And so the Russians were trained in like really this old art of every time I met with them, they were assessing, assessing me. They were trying to, you know, determine whether I was legit, whether I was lying. And, and, you know, Jack, one of the fascinating things about this is that People always assume when they hear I was a double agent, I was a spy, that like you're inherently a liar. And the fascinating thing for a lot of people is that, no, I never lied to the Russians. In fact, if they had asked me if I was working for the FBI, I probably would've told them yes. They just never did because they were really good at assessing if you were lying. And like they would do these things where they would ask a question, a mundane question on this form. Who was your sponsor? And then 6 months later, ask the same question. On page 12, block C, who was your sponsor? And the way that I look at this is that if you're lying about that really small thing, or there's a perceivable difference in your answer, then they can't trust you. And all they'll do is, I mean, that's it.

You're done with them. They're just going to walk away. So it was It was really challenging in doing that. And for me, taking even a further step back, so we talk about Westchester, right? So my parents, both immigrants, father was Pakistani, mother's French. And I always assumed later on that the reason the Soviets actually targeted my parents was because of that. They assumed here in this country that someone who's a new American is more malleable to be right. But I grew up hearing these stories because my dad, I think, downplayed it. The seriousness of it.

Can you tell us this story about your parents were actually—

The first time? Yep, yep, yep.

They started a research service essentially. That's right. And this is prior to the internet and everything.

This is the 1980s. Yeah. This is Height of the Cold War, height of Reagan, right? And so my dad was a PhD in philosophy of all things, and my mom was also an act app. And they— dad had worked for the NYPD, had done all these— they decided to start this research business. And it's exactly as you said, back then law firms would pay people to go to libraries. And they started moving out to selling books and selling books as a Federal contractors. So West Point or any federal agency that wanted to train would buy books. And rather than going from a syllabus to 15 different publishers, they'd come to them because government work is always incredibly bureaucratic. And in order to play, you have to be certified. Anyway, so there's this interesting bookselling business to the federal government. They were on 59th Street, so Midtown Manhattan. And one day in the late '80s, this man walked into their office and they weren't a bookstore, they were like an office. So they didn't really get foot traffic.

Traffic coming through. Yeah.

Yeah. So this guy walks in and he says he wants to speak to my dad and sits down with my father and says, my name is Alex Tomikin. I work at the UN mission. I work at the UN. And it was sort of vague. showed my father a business card, but then the way that my father would tell, like, took the card away, wouldn't actually give him the card, showed it to him like a— which is already weird. Weird. Yeah. Yeah. And it basically says like, I'm at the UN and I want to buy some books. My father's like, okay, well, what kind of books? He's like, oh, nuclear disarmament, things like that. And he's like, well, what do you do at the UN? He's like, oh, I work on those types of issues. And he's like, well, how is business going? Like, so they're just kind of BSing. And, um, guy gave, uh, Tomakin gave my father a list of books, looked academic, you know, wasn't anything classified, anything that would like raise any suspicions. And, um, I said, oh, okay, great, I'll get these. Uh, where do you want me to ship them to?

And he said, no, no, I'll come back in a couple weeks. And with that, he left. And my dad's just thinking, as, again, as he would tell the stories, like they had to hustle to get a customer. And here they just had someone come in and literally throw cash on the table. And so he was like, oh, this is great. And he went back to work. And then literally 10, 15 minutes later, there was a knock on the door and 2 more men came in dressed literally in trench coats. And they showed my dad a picture of Tomikins. Do you know this man? He's like, yeah, he was just here. And they were like, well, this guy's a KGB officer. What did he want? And my dad was like, just to buy some books. And they're like, and he's like, do you want to see the list of books? And they said, yes. Show them the list of books. And he said, what do you want me to do? And they said, get him his books. And he said, if he comes back, we'll be back. And so that started this wild relationship, Jack, where it was like between the FBI, the Soviets, and my parents.

And my parents, they'd been hippies. Like they wanted, They wanted to help their new country, but they didn't want to help too much.

I found it funny when you mentioned in your book how your dad is trained in ethics.

Yeah. Yeah.

But he had no problem with it. He's like, ah, fuck, I'll help the FBI out.

Yeah, but to a degree, because the whole thing with him is in his mind, as long as— they would be like, can we take you out to dinner? And he's like, no, no, it's okay. I will help my new country, but only this much. I'm not going to form a personal relationship. And the Russians too. they would offer. And listen, it was this wild thing. He just sort of found it exciting and funny. He found this whole thing ridiculous. And so he would tell me, we would sit around the dinner table and he'd be like, this is what just happened. And we'd be like, this is absurd. It just seemed like a comedy of absurdity. I learned later that there was sort of a sinister element to it, which is I was a young kid and again, The Russian, the Soviets had come to my parents' office, like, and they're pre-internet, no, you know, I, how you found information out about people back then is, I can only imagine. But like, there are times where we would, uh, my father, I remember very famously being at our local A&P, little supermarket in town, walking in with, you know, the cart.

And, uh, one of the Russians just walked right by him. And then there was other times when we'd be outside raking and they'd drive by the house. And my father would point it out and make fun of it, but I understood much later that that was a way of them telling us, we know where you live.

They want you to know that they're— Yeah.

They're very purposefully—

Harassing surveillance.

Yes. Yes. And also the Russians, again, as I learned, I've dealt with the Chinese intelligence as well in later life, but very different modus. And the Russians, It's all about posturing. It's all about mind-fucking people. It's all about leverage. And they're some scary motherfuckers, to be honest with you.

And as this relationship went on, it survived the fall of the Soviet Union.

That's right.

And continued on through, survived 9/11 happens and everything else. And I think you say in the book how Obviously these KGB officers and then later probably GRU guys are being cycled in and out of the UN mission every 3 years. And you point out that most of them were like pretty personable, articulate. Yes. They could talk to you. Yes. They had some culture.

Yeah.

But then this one guy comes in, Oleg.

Oleg.

Who is like the opposite of that.

Yeah. I mean, he was very smart. The way I explain it, Jack, I think it's important for people to understand that if you're in Russian intelligence, And even though we were focused on the war on terror, the Russians never lost sight of us.

Yes, the main enemy.

Yeah, the main enemy. That's exactly right. And so if you were going to climb up the ladder for the GRU or the SVR or any of that, you're coming to the United States. The best of their best are the ones that come here. So Again, kind of moving forward, you're right, like the relationship with the Soviets, once the Soviet Union collapsed, was a few years, but then the GRU just came right back. Same thing, just different, like same salad, different dressing, right? And the GRU is Russian military intelligence, and the books that they're buying, they're interested in military content. You know, they're buying maps and shit.

The way that relationship kind of panned out, at least initially until you came around, I guess, They really were looking for like open source material.

Yes.

And maybe they'd try to slip something classified in there. That's right. My parents are like, hey, we don't have access to this. That's right.

That's right. So they would, you know, I think people would want to know why wouldn't they just go to Barnes& Noble or Amazon to get this stuff? And back then there was export control. So this material was not allowed to be sold outside the United States. Um, again, might sound silly, but again, pre-internet or early internet days. And again, learned much later that, you know, there's a saying which is your, um, your enemies may know what information you want, but your friends, you know, what you, what your friends know is what you need. And it's that fact that like, if they're looking for a book on meteorology or like aluminum welding, whatever it might be, our intelligence community can look at that and say, well, this is a gap. This is something they're trying to do because they don't have this.

Right, right, right.

So just by, you know, there's 2 things. One is by doing it with my parents, they believed that what they were looking for was being protected from the US intelligence. But I think it's the second part, which is probably much more likely, is that intelligence, as I learned, is like, you know, it's like being a cop writing parking tickets. If you don't bring in X amount of sources or X amount of pieces of information, you're not doing your job.

Right.

And so my parents were easy to get books that could mark as like, we talked to a source and look what we got.

Yeah, yeah.

And even though it was like—

I did something.

Exactly. Even though you could just go to freaking Barnes& Noble back then and just buy the book, it was viewed as like, I'm sure, you know, like check the box. Interestingly enough—

And it's low risk

for them. Low risk.

Yeah.

And, you know, The whole thing with Robert Hanssen, which was right before— so Robert Hanssen was an FBI special agent who worked in counterintelligence, who was famously working, one of the worst turncoats working for the Russians. We think that because my parents were so relatively low level, that when Hanssen was arrested, and I'm sure disclosed a lot of the Russian, the assets the Russians were using, and even the time when he was feeding the Russians, who were US assets. My parents were so low that he probably never disclosed who they were. So there was this point in early 2000 when Hansen came in with, again, the Russian network had to be rebuilt.

Interesting.

And so I think I came in just on this all, I knew none of this, right? So, but I probably came in at that time. It was the right time that they were probably hungry to rebuild their network. Oleg, who was very smart, but like you said, very rough, came from Vladivostok, I think. He was not probably the son of some oligarch. He was more—

He was like a— was he a submarine officer?

I mean, he wore the submarine pin. He'd been a submariner, but I think submariner he'd been, but he'd also been to Turkey. I think he'd been an intelligence officer a fairly long time, and he was very good at what he did. I mean, there were some really impressive— it was like mental combat when you're talking to these guys. But he was also super fucking arrogant. And he was so excited that he— they knew that the Russians knew that I was applying to the Navy, and that became a really big thing. They were like, we're going to—

You use that to kind of sell yourself to them.

100%. And I remember, still have this crazy chart that the Russians gave me that was handwritten that showed every clearance up to the president. And they're like, this is where you'll be. This is where you'll get.

Because when they recruit an asset, the first thing they want to do is get him promoted up the hierarchy. 100%. Get them more assets.

relationship, right?

That, that was one of the most, I think, like impressive things that I, I read as far as what the Russians were trying to do, that they were trying to cultivate you as a very young man.

Yeah. Yeah.

With the idea that you would go places in, you know, 20, 30 years down the line.

It's crazy to think that, but like, that's what I say is in this, in this world of AI and all, and all this other stuff, like basically the way the Russians looked at this is that it's like becoming a made man in the mob.

Okay.

You're going to go through this whole process. And if you watch The Sopranos, when they talk about Chrissy becoming a captain, and basically this moment where the Russians were assessing me, once they'd assessed me, they don't have to necessarily meet with me in person. They just have to know it's me because they've already made their assessment. And so this part is really, really important because With technology, there's just a lot of ways to obviously move things around and do so in a way that's, you're not like doing necessarily loading dead drops and being with people in person. And I think that is something that has changed. Although we can talk about tactics down the, you know, it's the risk of catching someone in person is like, obviously that's what the FBI wants, what the Russians want to do. And we do the same thing in Moscow, right? That's where you're at the most vulnerable is when you're actually meeting with an asset. So it's the most dangerous part of this. And so I think both services, the CIA, other intelligence services, they want to—

Well, they keep their distance if they can.

Yeah. But they want that assessment of understanding and unpacking, A, if you're real, and B, understanding what your motivation is. That's perhaps the most important thing because there's a lot of things you can fake, but sitting down with someone Unless you're a freaking pathological liar, you're a complete sycophant, most people can't lie, especially not for 3 years like that. If you're good at that, there's something not right with you.

Right, right.

And so they're really good at just sussing out lies. And so the wild thing is I didn't have a cover name. I used my name. Everything about me was real.

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Well, so you know from growing up in the stories you hear from your dad that this relationship with the, you know, exists and that the FBI is kind of watching over their shoulder. Tell us about like why you kind of got involved in their business, your parents' business.

Yeah.

And like how, like you had, you had like a motive yourself.

Of course.

Yeah.

Every— there's got— listen, no one, no one is altruistic. Like we're always doing something for that that's gonna benefit us. And, you know, September, which we're at 25 years of September 11th, I was, I was in Boston at the time of September 11th, but I obviously, like you, I'd grown up in New York. I went to NYU. New York City was a very important part of my early life. It's this, I don't know how to explain it to an outsider, but it is a place where the son of a Pakistani philosopher who's an atheist and a French Jewish Catholic mom can come together and create. There's not many places where I think I can New York is one of them. So September 11th, obviously, I think for many of us, but it really redefined my priorities. At the time I was working, I was at Harvard, my wife was doing her PhD there, and I was just kind of aimless maybe. It just felt something was missing. And then 9/11 happened. It was really— we were back in New York. I saw the pile. It was— I mean, it's just all seared into me. It's like really the first time that I felt something big and that this feeling that I wanted to be part of something bigger.

And that's where I sort of found this intelligence program with the Navy. The funny thing about intelligence is everyone thinks it's James Bond, but 90% of it is just PowerPoint.

Yeah, for the officers especially.

Especially. even for the poor enlisted. Um, so I had no idea what it really meant, but it seemed intriguing. I had, I applied when I was in Boston. Um, like I said, didn't get in. And I came with this harebrained idea that the relationship with my parents and the FBI and the Russians, maybe I could use that to have the FBI write me a letter of recommendation. And in fact, when I moved back to New York, came back to, you know, try my hand at the family business, I met with the FBI agents and I never forget, I met at a Dunkin' Donuts across from 26 Fed, which is the big federal building in downtown New York. And I told them this, I was like, yeah, I'd like to help you. You know, and they're like looking at me and they're like, they're waiting for what am I going to ask for in exchange? And I imagine FBI agents are like asked for like, I've never paid taxes ever. Like, you know, right? Like, can you help me out with this? Like, I'm wanted for crossing.

Like, if that was— yeah, if that were the case, I'd be asking for their phone number. Maybe you can help me.

Like, all right, transported sheep across state lines. God knows where it is. So, but like, I'm asking them and they're like waiting. I'm like, can you— you know, I want— I asked him, I literally asked him, Jack, for a letter of recommendation for the Navy. And they're like, think about the FBI. And they're like, they're very super withholding. It's weird, like parental relationship. And very manipulative. And they're like, I could tell they had like a reaction on their face. They're like really surprised that this is all I was asking for. And, um, but they, their answer was like, we'll look into it and get back to you. And like, that's how this whole thing started. I was like, okay, I'm going to do this. They're going to help me get in. I'm going to be able to go to the Navy and be like, look, I worked on real intelligence. And it was just the most, in hindsight, like the stupidest idea. But I was young, you know, like what are you, early 20s? Um, didn't know any better. And, uh, but that's how it all started. And then I realized that it turned out to be a, a really wild adventure that, um, yeah, that just turned into something a lot bigger than I really understood until much, much later.

And so you didn't get into the Navy the first time?

Nope.

So the second time, you know, like you were pointing out earlier, you need to show some growth in your resume. Um, and so what was your idea how to go about that?

Well, so of course the FBI, Being the FBI, they're like, "We're gonna help you." But this is we can't like put anything in writing. We can have like high level to high. Like they just made it so much more difficult. So you know when the Army just like in any there's promotion boards and there's you know. So what they would do is I had to meet with I can say it now a board in Fort Hamilton, and it was like they made their assessment

here in Brooklyn.

Yes. Defense Intelligence Agency was there for many years. So I met with these, you know, 3 Navy captains. Those are O-6s. And the FBI, trying to help me, they met with those same captains before I went in to meet with them. I had this great recruiter, Julie Schmidt, still around. She's retired. Love her to death. I've actually reconnected with her. So she facilitated this meeting. So I was supposed to, I don't remember what time, let's say it's 1:00 PM, I'm going to meet with them. The 2 FBI agents that I'm working with met with a group at noon. And while they never told me what they said, this is what I assessed they said. They said they went up to these captains, they're like, we got this guy. He's really good. We can't tell you what he's working on, but his name is Naveed Jamali. And then they left. And so I walk in and there's these captains, they're looking at me like, What the fuck was that? And I'm like, I realize that these fucking FBI agents, these captains think I was involved in some terrorist thing. They thought that I got arrested trying to buy ammonia nitrate in a Ryder van, because everyone's about counterterrorism right now.

You're Naveed Jamal and they assume—

You're working, yeah.

Counterterror— they assume terrorism. And so I had to tell the FBI, I was like, guys, you got to stop doing this because you're really making it a lot harder for me. People assume I'm a fucking terrorist. And they're like, oh, but yeah. So that second time, you know, I don't know exactly what happened because, again, a lot of this was opaque to me. But we worked with it and it wasn't until the operation ended that I got my commission. So I did this for, for 3 years. I mean, it was really an intense 3 years and the The dangling carrot for me at the end of this was to get into the military, which again, in hindsight, Jack, like, man, I should have asked for like one federal crime, like regicide or something. Like, there should have asked for something, something more. But yeah, it, it. And then, of course, again, small teams. So you really don't understand how like secret and sensitive what you're doing is. Because it's just you and 2 other guys. And, um, once I got out and kind of got into the real intelligence world, I realized this is something pretty unique.

Um, and you know that, uh, it, listen, there's a lot of people obviously that do some pretty amazing things that can never be told for a lot of reasons. I'm lucky enough that I was able to, you know, not only come off, come out of this on top, but also be able to share the story. It really is an insight into what I think there are a lot of people on a daily basis that, you know, not just, not just CIA officers and FBI agents, they get all the glory, but they're not the ones that, you know, they're meeting with the people that are actually doing the work for them. It's the assets that are risking their lives, risking their family lives. And, you know, um, there's a lot of people that are just now are helping our country because they, for whatever reason, they believe I do. And it sounds quaint, but they believe in this idea of democracy. Right. They believe in this idea of America and they're not doing it for money. They're doing it for some, you know, higher personal reason. Sure. Some of them are doing it for money and other things.

Of course, it's an easy thing, but there are, there are some, you know, true believers. And, um, yeah, I just, to me though, it's all comedy. Like it just, I look at some of this stuff and I'm like, how the hell were we able to do this? Like, how did they just let us? Just do it.

I mean, it was interesting in this case that like it wasn't really the FBI pitching you, it was more you pitching them.

Oh God, I was like so into it.

At least in the initial part of it. I mean, what was your pitch to them? What did you want to do?

It's a really good question, man. So, you know, it's all innovation, right? And I was trying to come up with an idea that would make sense for what I'm doing, right? So the only direction the FBI would give me, much to their credit, was like, if you were a real spy, how would you do this? And I, I ran with that. Like, I ended up going to like State Department training and all this other stuff. And, you know, it was— so I came up with this idea that through the company we had access to certain material, and we ended up going to Northrop Grumman at one point. and in Long Island to get, like, I remember getting these giant NATOPS for the F-14 back then and like giving them to the Russians. And, um, so a lot of it became like getting information and access to stuff that would make me valuable. And the FBI was like, yeah, man, just do what you need to do. We'll, we'll, we'll let you, we'll let you run with it. And I think it was so harebrained that when the Russians looked at this, they were like, this is so wild that it can't be the FBI.

Because the FBI is so unimaginative. They're like this. In fact, funny footnote, years later I ran into a colleague, actually someone I went to high school with, a few years older, turned out to be an Apache pilot. And the FBI had pitched him many years later the same idea to basically for him to set up a book business because he had contact with a Russian intelligence officer in DC. Yeah. So like

they wanted to repeat the formula.

Yeah. And it's like, come on guys, like that's not gonna work again. Yeah.

Yeah.

And of course it didn't. So it was, um, yeah, I, again, much to the FBI's credit, they really let me run, run with this. And I think because it was so non-traditional, man, they just, Russians didn't know what to do with it.

Uh, some of the conversations between you and the FBI sound very funny because, well, for a couple of different reasons, but one of them is like, I get the sense, especially initially, they didn't want to direct you. Yeah. So they're just sort of like asking a question and leaving like, use your imagination here, Naveed.

Like,

yeah, yeah, you know, how would you go about this or that?

Yeah. So I mean, one of the big questions I would always ask, I'd be like, hey, does Oleg have a gun?

Yeah, yeah.

And they'd be like, well, what do you think? I'm like, no, no, no, no.

Yeah, who gives a shit what I think?

I want to know, does he— like, if I'm going to go into a fucking building with him when there's no one around? Am I going to get shot? And they'd be like, what do you think he'd do? And I'm like, it was like, it was— so yeah, I mean, clearly again, now understanding 2 reasons, obviously. Interestingly enough, I was creating intelligence. I was an actual producer of intelligence. Even though I was producing that intelligence, once it was handed to the FBI, it now became classified intelligence. So even though I had no clearance and I was producing this, I couldn't there's things I couldn't see or know. And obviously one of them was like the tactics and some of the classified information about how the Russians operate. There was a second reason. Um, I remember one time sitting with the FBI and we were talking about Oleg and they mentioned that he was a really big, he was really big into swimming. Like that was his workout thing. And there was like a pause. And the agent said, he never told you about that, right? And I was like, no. He's like, you can never repeat that because—

Yeah, how would you know?

Right? So everything was so, like, it was wild, Jack, because it's like having an uber mother-in-law because everything you say is going to be taken and examined in context and what does it mean? And I imagine the Russians did the same thing. I'm sure they're recording everything and I'm sure that They're looking for any changes. They're looking for any variation in what you're saying. And again, something, it's, you know, it's the little things. If I had mentioned that, that Oleg was a big swimmer, he would've been like, well, how do you know that?

Right?

Or even if he said nothing, he would've just taken that back and they would've picked up on it.

And you, I mean, like you said, not, not, uh, a pathological liar, but you did play a character with him.

That's right.

Yeah,

that's right. So you couldn't lie, but like, he didn't know why I was there, right? I was there because I wanted to get into the Navy, but that's not— and there was like, I was telling him that he— there was truth to that, but that's, you know, that was really my endgame. And you start doing stuff, Jack, when you're working undercover, it's like, it's really easy to get lost. Like, it's really easy to lose that center, that direction. Sure. And so that like North Star for me was always like, hey, at some point I'm going to get out. I'm going to get this career and I'm going to do this like above board and legitimate. But what I figured out very early on is the Russians knew who I was, right? They'd seen me as a young boy because of my dad. So they knew I was a real person. Wasn't just someone that just magically appeared.

Right,

right.

Out of Quantico.

Exactly, exactly. What they didn't know was like why. I was doing this. Why did I want to do this? And at the time, I'd consumed a lot of books about, a lot of information about this, trying to understand, watch a lot of movies. And I came across this acronym called MICE.

Yeah.

That MICE has to do with the motivation for why people generally spy. It's a really interesting thing why someone will betray their country. There's a whole psychology behind that. But MICE stands for Money, ideology, coercion, and ego. And what I found is that the coercion part, people think that if you blackmail or threaten someone, you're going to do just enough to kind of—

I've talked to CIA people who are like, we don't really do that. Yeah, it doesn't work. Because, I mean, the problem is if you're coercing a person, is that asset going to lure you into an ambush?

Yeah, 100%. They're not loyal. There's got to be a benefit to them.

Right.

So the much more beneficial, like, I've talked to people that were recruited by, you know, the hell was his name? He's long since gone, but he was in the first Trump admin. He was a former naval officer. Carter? Anyway, but he turned out to be crazy. They have a lot of people that show up and are like, we want to help you. And the Russians are like, nah. Yeah, we don't. If someone approaches us—

Oh, like walk in?

Yeah, yeah. And there's just people that are, they're not actually from the FBI, but they're just fucking crazy.

Yeah, we do that too.

Yeah, of course. 100%.

We have crazy walk-ins.

Yeah. It's just intelligence, the White House, these are beacons for people that are—

And the walk-ins set off all the red lights because that this person is a dangle, that they are a double agent.

Exactly. Exactly. So it's either dangle, but the other part is that there's actual people who are Crazy.

Right, right.

Like legitimately crazy.

I mean, arguably fucking— when I hear some of the stuff these guys did, like some of the stuff Hansen did, it's fucking crazy.

Oh yeah.

I talked to— we interviewed a retired FBI agent, counterintelligence guy who was on the periphery of that. And like his whole part of that was they knew an FBI guy came to the consulate. I think it was a consulate, not an embassy. in like 1985 or whatever like that and was sitting there in that room. And this journalist had seen this FBI agent sitting there. So like they knew that whoever that guy is, that American, he's the one that's spilling these secrets.

Yeah.

So they had to identify him. But I mean, again, he walked into that consulate. No, it is— I mean, that's nuts.

It's this, you know, there's this weird thing where, again, it's like so much ego is in this, especially for dudes.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah. And the funny thing about intelligence and government— Narcissism. Narcissism, absolutely. It's like, I think when you're playing a game where the game is to never actually win, it's like to be constant stalemate, right? Because if the whole thing with this is that—

Unless you're going to defect, I mean, what the hell are you doing?

Yeah. But the whole thing with intelligence and counterintelligence is that unless you're going kinetic, you're just trying to keep status quo, right? If you push too hard, then especially in intelligence, then it bleeds through intelligence and becomes like, now the Russians are going to fucking launch a missile. Right?

Right.

So there's this careful balance. You want to stop, but you don't want to go too far. And they know that game too. And I think playing that where you— I mean, I talked to FBI agents who spent 20 years watching their Russian adversaries from a mile away.

Yeah. Yeah.

And it's like the fact that I got to sit down and talk to them and touch them and you know, do all sorts of crazy shit with them. It's like, it's like a wet dream for them because they never— they see it, but they never get it.

Yeah, they don't use them as like the undercover guy.

That's right. And I think that fucks with people. I legitimately think that at a certain point—

Like you pointed out, the CIA, I mean, the case officer, you're like the social worker for the asset.

That's right. That's a great way to put it. But yeah, and I think that— I think for some people that's really hard. Like, it's really hard to be the coach and not the player.

Oh yeah, absolutely.

Right? And so for someone like, like I said, the psychology stuff is fucking fascinating. For someone like Hanssen who has this giant ego, I think that it was probably really hard for him to not— And

Ames also, giant ego and an alcoholic.

And they all think, it's funny, they all think that they're doing, they're actually helping. They justify they're helping the agency or the—

Well, when you become a snitch, the mentality, there's something that happens inside their brains.

Well, they justify it.

The mental gymnastics.

Yeah. And it's like, so getting back to your question, for me, I'm none of these things, but I know that the Russians have a profile of what makes sense. And so what I came up with from that MICE acronym was, again, I can't use coercion. I think Oleg asked me once, I'm not religious. He asked me once about ideology, about, he's like, oh, how do you feel about God? And I was like, yeah, man, I'm not going to—

What's your stance on communism?

That's right, exactly. And I was like, I'm not fucking talking to you about that. And then I realized, again, I had this Corvette, I was this young kid. It was really easy to just focus on the last, the first and last, money and ego.

Right, right.

And so a lot of my conversations with the Russians were like, and it was awesome, I'm not going to lie, this is one of the best parts, would be like, fuck you, pay me money now. And I felt that as long as they probably had some profile that young Americans only care about money.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so as long as I kept playing that for them, they're like, yeah, yeah, this is fucking real. We understand this. This guy just wants money. And the Russians are so fucking cheap. Like, I remember going and being like, I want $40,000 a month. And they're like, I'll give you $3,000 right now. I'm like, fuck you. Like, I could go to jail for this. I want 40 grand.

It was really funny too how, uh, and I didn't know it was done quite like this, but it makes sense when I read it in your book that Oleg would pay you, then you would have to give the money to the FBI. The FBI, you know, takes a receipt.

Yeah.

And then they pay you the money. They pay FBI money to you because— and I think that was for your protection.

Yeah, it was because I can't actually be accepting money from a Russian. Yeah. But it was so funny. The funny thing about this, Jack, is that the Russians were completely funding this operation against them. Right. Which is hysterical. But yeah, that is, it is this, In the middle, that was like a taste of the bureaucracy that I didn't get to see, which was so amazing about this is it was basically me and 2 FBI agents and like who else was involved in it was completely— I had no idea. But then shit like that, you get a sense of like, hey, it's not quite that easy that you can't just do this shit on your own.

So how did you evolve your relationship with Oleg as You know, they're trying to provide him with intelligence. He wants intelligence. How did you kind of like take it to the next level?

So there was this moment where— can I tell you about the joke? Like, this is how I knew. Do you remember the story about the joke that I told Ola? Oh yeah, yeah. So I was young and dumb and I, again, like I thought everything was just like this big joke, right? And I remember Oleg would come to my office and my father was still there and he would introduce me to my dad. And again, coming into the office, people would see him. We had moved to Dobbs Ferry at this point in Westchester. And so this is the funny part, but there's actually a really important part of this about how relationships change and move to the next level. So my dad introduced me to Oleg and I don't know what possessed me, but I'm like, let me tell this guy a joke. And so the joke is, is as follows. There's— it's Glasnost, and there's 2 Soviet, like, grandpas standing in Red Square waiting for their daily serving of borscht. And, uh, one of them turns to— Yuri turns to Pavel, says, you know what, this is bullshit. I thought when— now that Gorbachev was here, we'd be done with these lines.

Everything with capitalism would be changed. He's like, you know what? I'm going to go fucking shoot Gorbachev. Can you save my spot on line? So Yuri goes, gone 2, 3, 4, 5 hours, comes back and he goes up to Pavel and he says, oh, thanks for saving my spot on line. Pavel says, did you shoot Gorbachev? And he says, no, there was a line for that too. And You know, you laugh. Oleg looked at me and he looked terrified because basically it's like, have you seen the videos where there's like the North Korean guys applying for jobs and they try to get—

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They try to get them to say, do you say Kim Jong-un's a fat bastard? So he's probably thinking, I didn't know any of this at the time 'cause there's rules. I didn't know any of these rules. This is very early on in the relationship with Oleg. He's thinking, if I'm recording him, if I get Oleg saying something negative about the Russian government, we could use that to blackmail him.

Right, right, right.

So he's like, oh no, I don't know anything about that. I don't, yeah, I don't know what you're talking about. He makes a very public display. But in that moment, what Oleg, we had this conversation and basically what he said to me is like, next time we meet, can we meet at a restaurant? And so that subtle thing of moving the relationship that had been going on for 20 years outside of the office, directly with me and like him getting my cell phone number. It really changed things. And it's funny, Jack, at the time I didn't realize this, but it was a subtle shift to move. And that subtle thing really set everything in motion.

And he really liked meeting at Uno's Pizza.

And Hooters. Hooters.

Who doesn't like Hooters?

I mean, yeah, except that it was so—

Can't blame him.

No. But The only thing with him is it's like, it's like if you're a 25-year-old kid and you're going with your gross, like, yeah, yeah, perv uncle, you're like, oh man, this is just uncomfortable. I remember him being at Hooters and there's like this Black waitress and he looks at me and he goes, oh look, they even have Black ones here. And I'm like, I don't even know what to do to that. Like, I don't— what do I—

Yeah. With Russians, you don't really want to talk to them about Black people, Jews. Yeah. You know, a lot of the Eastern Europe. Yeah. You don't.

No, no.

Just don't talk to them.

No. I was told also, under no circumstances was I to drink with him.

Oh yeah.

Then I was like, oh dude, that's—

He'll annihilate you.

But that was a big shift. And from there, it really did, I think it kind of removed this barrier of him being much more honest of what they wanted from us. And I think what the FBI said, it moved from like, he's coming in, up until that, they're giving lists for books and it's very standard. Are they doing anything wrong? It's not really— it's low level. But here now they're tasking an American citizen to collect intelligence for them.

And they really want you to get classified stuff.

Yeah. And it's a long game. I don't think people understand how patient— they will wait years to do this. And then when they feel like it's run its course, they're done. They're gone.

Yeah. Walk away.

That's it. And, you know, it's, it's, it's really a wild thing.

I— but you mentioned the, the whole part about Northrop Grumman.

Yeah.

Was kind of amusing. And I thought it was very funny because the FBI had obviously orchestrated this entire thing. And you were like nervous as shit. Like, oh, I go in there and what do I say? You tell that story.

Yeah. So again, like, Jack, I knew none of these rules.

Right?

Right. So the FBI, I clearly, like you said, orchestrated this. They drive me out to Long Island, they get in the parking lot, like, all right, you can just walk in there and just get what you can get. And I'm like, okay, do they know I'm coming? They're like, yeah, probably. And obviously what had happened is they were not going to come in with me because they didn't want to be seen with me. And like, if something went south—

Yeah, they're letting you be the guy.

Yeah, exactly. I'm fucked. Right. But none of this. So they, they had, to their credit, they had arranged a meeting. I forget the guy's name. Name, but arranged a meeting with like, uh, one of their librarians or one of their like archivists. And I was able to get documents and we were able, I was able to use my traditional credentials to get that. And, um, the Northrop Grumman, it's funny, uh, years later, Northrop Grumman was our sponsor for at Newsweek for one of, we, I flew the B-2. I had a good laugh with them about this. Um, I actually talked to their CEO. It was, it's, you know, it was, it was, again, these are the risks Like the FBI was not— the FBI could have gotten me documents and been like, here. But instead they wanted to make it believable.

Right.

And so they took me out there because again, Oleg would ask, how did you get these?

Right.

What did the building look like? Who did you talk to? But again, if something had gone south, like Northrop Grumman security had got— the FBI would have been in the wind.

But I mean, obviously someone at the company knew what was going on.

And I don't know that they knew what was going on to the extent of it, But they knew that I was coming.

They were willing to play ball with the FBI. Yeah.

Yeah. I, I, again, I don't know who contacted them. The FBI was— listen, to their credit, um, you know, it's the circle of trust. If anyone— it's, it's hard to understate this, but if anyone found out what I was doing, like, you're risking your life, literally. I mean, the Russians, they don't think— take things personally, but they're all about sending messages and It's a fucking nuclear-armed state. Like, they're not— I'm a nothing to them. I'm a, I'm a fly on the wall.

They're probably not gonna whack you, but you didn't really know that.

No. And, and funny thing, much later on when I, uh, got out and got into the military and I wrote the book, we're talking to some friends who were in various agencies, and like, one of my good friends, Chuck, um, he was with— he's with a bunch of agencies and talking, and he's very deadpan. I was like, should I be worried about the Russians? He's like, no. He's like, if anything, they'd probably just subcontract it out to the Bulgarians. So when I would go do my book tour in Eastern Europe, in Europe, I was like, just make sure there are no fucking Bulgarians that show up.

What the Russians really get butthurt about is their defectors. Yeah. You've seen the Polonium.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's to send a message. You're not safe. No.

That's exactly right. And the thing with me is people say, aren't you worried? And the reality is—

You might not want to go to Russia.

No. I have a 17-year-old son. He's like, do you think I could travel to Russia? I'm like, probably not. Nah.

No, come on, dude.

But from Russia's— and I can tell you some, again, some postscript of what the Russians have done since the book came out, but I've definitely had run-ins with them. But what they want to do is, like you said, they're all about sending messages. but also all about checking in to see what's going on even now. And then, but thirdly, they understand that if I walk out of the studio, Jack, and I get hit by a bus, 90% of the people are going to assume it's the Russians. So what they don't want to do is they don't want— like, what they'd rather do is like, you know, make sure— I've had—

Yeah, assassinating Americans on American soil is an escalation, a huge escalation.

And it's not worth it to them.

Yeah.

But what they will do, which is really interesting, especially in this day and age, is like Way back when Twitter was first a thing, like I'd see things like I go on cable news and talk, and suddenly I'd have huge amount of followers would follow me, and then the next day they just like so they were fuck like they troll me in that regard. Like there was definitely shit that they were doing like reputationally. I'd get like you know pictures of like poop and stuff like all sorts of funny. They were definitely doing stuff online, and like you know like they'd bomb your book review and stuff like that. You can never prove it, but like you assume that that's. And that's safe for them. I had things with Russia Today would try to get me to come on and like—

Oh, that would've been hilarious.

Oh yeah. Dude, that was— you want to hear a crazy story about that? Again, postscript, I was living in Seattle. At this time I was still in the Navy and I went to the Westin and I did a talk at the Seattle Rotary Club and they had this huge banquet hall. And prior to that, Russia Today was trying to get me to come on like crazy, and I would just ignore them. And then finally they said something, I can't remember what it was, and I responded and I was like, fuck. And I remember talking to my old FBI case officer, old Asac. He was like, dude, why would you do that? You just gave them a piece of information. Now they know if they ever want to rattle your cage, this is what they have to say. He's absolutely right. I let my emotion get into that. So anyway, fast forward, I'm doing this talk in a Westin and there's probably like 100-plus people. It's all old blue-haired. Finished my talk and there's a couple people are asking me and I noticed out the corner of my eye, there's these really attractive women and this one dude who looks like he's got a long pony.

He just looks Eastern fucking European.

Don't belong there.

Yeah, right. And I'm like, no one under 40 just came to talk, to listen to this talk, right? So I'm talking and walking, making my way out, and then all of a sudden there's an escalator. And, uh, I'm with my, the guy who brought me there, he's walking, and this woman, like, they're, these 2, these 3 people are pointing at me and obviously talking about me. And she like, beautiful green, bright green dress, walks in right behind and starts talking to me. He goes, I had a question for you. I just didn't want to ask in front of everyone. I was like, sure, what's up? And she starts going on about like, how come you don't criticize America? Like, you talk about Russia's doing this, but America does the same thing. And I'm thinking, yeah, she's fucking recording me. Like, she's trying to get me to say something at a school. And immediately I knew which this was. And she— so we go down, we're walking, and there's a bar. And she's like, do you want to get a drink? I've got a room here.

Jesus.

And I'm like—

Laying it on.

Yeah. Yeah, no, I'm good. I'm like, I'm like, nice to meet you.

Natasha.

Oh, I know exactly her name. I won't say it, but we got her name.

But she— these were people with RT?

No, I don't know who— I mean, no, but I assume that there was a coordinated thing here. I don't think it was coincidence. You can never be sure in this world. You can be sure, like, the whole thing, the whole thing that we would say is when there's doubt, there is no doubt.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So they wanted to discredit you.

So, yeah, but like, We got, we pulled, I, again, I was in the military, so we, we went to NCIS, I course reported to NCIS, had a friend who was one of the, one of the federal agencies, got the video. I still have it from the West End, got her name. And dude, she has a, she's still, as far as I know, in Seattle. Um, I periodically look at her Facebook profile. Um, she showed up in 2013. There's nothing before 2013. Her husband says that he works at Microsoft, but who knows? It's just, it's like, you know what she is.

She's like— I have a couple weird stories about that myself.

Yeah. I mean, and people are surprised that that shit goes on.

And I have been approached by RT and Press TV in the past and I'm like, yeah, I just don't respond. You can't. I'm not going on.

And the thing is that even you say anything, anything you say, they just fucking twist it.

Yeah.

So you can't give them anything. Um, but like, yeah, the Russians are fucking— I mean, people don't realize this, but they've been doing propaganda since they were, you know, since fucking Stalin, right?

Yeah. Since the Bolshevik Revolution.

Yeah, exactly.

So, well, before that even, I mean, during the czarist times, they had a pretty fearsome intelligence.

They fucking invented it. And so they're really, really good at, at that stuff. And it's just, yeah, it's really hard because you can't let your emotions— but like, that gives you the sense of the scale of what you're playing with. my one misstep of being like, fuck you. If I'd said nothing—

Yeah, they knew they didn't get inside your head.

Now they knew. They're like, we know what can fucking rattle his cage. And I remember it was this woman writing me. She's like, what, are you scared to come on? I was like, fuck you, I'm not scared. And that was like, I immediately regretted it.

I had one that's quite clear where I received an email. I was working in journalism and I was reporting a lot about the war in Syria at the time. got an email from a woman named Natalie who claimed to be working at Interpol. And this long email detailing all of this, uh, you know, basically what she was saying was that the CIA is giving guns to terrorists in Syria.

Yeah.

And she kind of said all of the right words, but there's no specifics, you know, there's no names, there's no dates, there's no places. And I'm like, this is Interesting. She said the right words to me, right? But nothing tangible.

Yeah.

So I asked her, you know, can you tell me more? Can we meet somewhere? Can we have a cup of coffee? Nothing. And I had a friend trace the email and the email address pops in St. Petersburg.

Of course.

So it was like, yeah, that one's very clear what they were trying to do. And it just makes you wonder like, hey man, there's some things that I shouldn't say. I'll get sued immediately if I say on, on, air here, but I have a strong belief that the Russians specifically target, amongst other people, journalists in the national security field.

Of course they do.

And I could potentially point to 2 or 3 that for sure are playing that game.

Name names.

It's not a joke. I mean, it'll be an instant lawsuit and I couldn't prove it in a court of law. I don't

But that's the way, you know, that's the thing that people don't understand is that when it comes to counterintelligence, like, you know, when I was at MSNBC, um, so I know we're kind of bumping all over the place, but when I got out of, uh, I was finished doing that stuff with the FBI, still in the military. One of the reasons I actually left is I, I got a, I got hired by MS, was now MS Now, MSNBC to do like intelligence analysis. They were looking for, you know, and I, one of the few people that have real experience with intelligence, Russian intelligence. And one of the things I kept explaining to MSNBC was like, guys, counterintelligence doesn't work in the way that the criminal division works. They're not looking to make arrests and having perp walks and shit like that.

In a lot of cases, like with Oleg, they can't.

They can't. That's right. And honestly, something as subtle as being like, hey, we know what you're doing.

And that's frustrating for a cop who their entire life is that To make an arrest.

Absolutely. So the kind of people that do this, temperament's really interesting and it's really, the ones that are really unique at good at this, it takes a very specific temperament. But it's all about the subtlety. And you could tell the Russians are like, just something as simple as showing a picture of someone or leaving a phone number, that's enough to blow an entire operation. Now the Russians or the US, whoever it might be, has to assume that that's compromised. And so do they go on? You don't actually have to arrest someone, right? Because you're never going to stop Russian intelligence completely. They're always going to— they're a fucking state. So it was really hard for traditional media to understand that this isn't like— even with Hansen, right? This stuff is never going to see the daylight in court because there's just too much national security. So they plead guilty to avoid avoid a trial.

That happens within the CIA all the many times. People would be shocked if they knew.

Oh, it's, it's— and it's for the good of the country, right? Because you can't just— you don't, you don't want— there's no national security.

Also just embarrassment.

Oh, well, that's too— but there is a legitimacy that, you know.

Yeah, that stuff can't come out in open record. That's right.

And if someone's gonna go to a jury trial, they have a right to—

right,

for information for the defense, right? Right. The Constitution. We live in a constitution. constitutes democracy. So again, that was something that all this stuff, when you talk about not understanding, you talk about journalism, listen, it's the same way— you think the US government doesn't pitch journalists in the same way for certain reasons? I mean, I know I've been on the receiving end of it.

I don't think they're supposed to, but there's waivers for everything.

And it's not Okay, but it's like, hey, this guy or gal is going to write a story that's much more pro. Why don't we go to them first?

Back during the Cold War, for sure, the agency was placing stories in newspapers around the world.

Oh God, yeah. Yeah. I mean, but even now it's like, well, look, I mean, the other thing is journalists. Journalists, let's be honest, as I'm sure you know, Jack, it's the least, most mistrusted industry at this point.

Yeah. And I mean—

Not without good reason.

The thing is, The little anecdote I was telling you before we started recording is the relationship the intelligence community has with the press in America. I mean, they don't need to recruit you.

No.

I mean, journalists will do it out of love.

Yeah.

Because they're like, feed me information and I'll write this stuff.

Access journalism, baby.

It's a thing.

Yeah, 100% it is. And look, I mean, that's a whole other topic. But the other reality is that one of the funny things is when I was doing hard— I don't do hard news for Newsweek anymore. Obviously, I host a show, which is, it's journalism, but it's storytelling. So we don't do— but there was a point when we were doing that, and it was really funny to talk to the Taliban, to talk to their press officer. They have fucking press officers. And we were still in Afghanistan at this time. Man, they were so well-spoken. And I remember very— there was a great reporter, he's still at Newsweek, name is Tom O'Connor. We would do some crazy stories about, you know, um, Americans being taken hostage and like we got some really great scoops. Um, in fact, I'm the journalist of record that reported, the first one to report that the last plane had left Afghanistan, um, with Donahue. And, um, But anyway, so we're talking to the Taliban and there was a point the Taliban basically, we'd go to them and be like, hey, do you want to give us comment? And they actually said, no, thank you.

Like very politely because they realized that with Twitter and social media, they don't need the press to talk to the general public.

Correct.

And it was this really like leveling moment where you realize that, you know—

The world has changed.

The world has changed. Even now, like, I mean, we you have kids, like it's, it's, they all watch, they're all on Instagram. I'm there too. And, you know, it's really challenging because I don't think people understand. Like, if you look at what's going on, again, I'm not making this as a nonpartisan statement, but a statement of fact. But you look at what's going on with, in Gaza, like there is, I think, absolute, or Ukraine, right? Like there's absolute manipulation. Yeah. of, you know, you're not journalists. News outlets, we have standards when we report things. Not saying that they can't be wrong, can't be biased, but there is a process. We can't just go out and say, as you know, can't just go out and say— there are things I'm sure that you know to be true, but they don't meet that journalistic standards. You can't—

Of being triple sourced.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And so you can't say them, and just the way it is. But if you're Joe Schmo the influencer,

Right.

You can say whatever the fuck you want.

And maybe it's true, maybe it's not. It's not true.

And who cares? And also, who knows?

Does it even matter in their case?

Yeah. And look, I mean, in the first Trump administration, I very much know this to be true, which is like, you're an influencer, you have a Patreon, you have a way to make money. And what you realize is that when you start talking about certain things, you get more donations. And so you keep talking about that.

Our boy Tim Pool was directly thanking him. 100%.

There you go. But that's fucking wild, right? But it shouldn't surprise anyone when that came out. And for Russia, a few million dollars—

Nothing.

It's nothing.

Who cares? They make that.

Yeah. And they can. So why wouldn't they go and start indirectly paying influencers to carry their message? I mean, you've seen— why not, right?

It's funny about Dimitri, we've never been approached even.

That you know

of. I feel left out. I feel like, what, am I not an eligible bachelor?

Well, that you know of, right? You must get pitched. The whole thing with the Russians, what I noticed after Oleg, so the FBI is so good at watching these people that I suspect that they move to more non-traditional

Mm-hmm.

Plausible, deniable, like people. And so you don't fucking know. I mean, you can suspect. I'm sure you're a smart guy.

Illegals.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And they— and exactly, they're illegals, but they may actually be here legally.

Right.

There are people that, you know, it's like the CIA will do this. They will actually do defensive buys of defense companies or, or companies that the Chinese will try to— that are going public.

Oh yeah, that's a thing.

That is a thing. And, um, you work for a company and you get acquired by another company, you don't know who owns it, but it's a Chinese entity, and suddenly they start pulling, you know, your IP. They'll— I mean, look, there's a whole host of cases where, um, there was a Marine Harrier pilot who was recently arrested because he was in Australia, but then he got recruited by the Chinese.

Oh, I remember that. Yeah.

And it's this really gray area. I've talked to— there's one of the big—

well, that's like a pretty clear ITARS.

Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right. But then there are places like— there's a lot of former agency guys that get hired by the Saudis and shit like that.

Yeah.

And it's like, yeah, they're there to train, but like, what, what tactics are they disclosing? It's a messy

That, that gets very weird where you have like a former NOC advising a UAE.

Yeah, that's funny. It's like, yeah, but there's money to be made. And so like this shit happens and it becomes— I think what the Russians are really good at, and the Chinese too, is like that layered— who are you really talking to?

Right, right.

You don't know, right? Like

if it comes to you with an American face, you know, do you really know?

So one of the crazy stories I can tell you about the Chinese is— so Newsweek does a lot of reporting. We had a lot of reporting about China that was— and the Chinese are not fans of ours. Living in Seattle, and it was the height of the pandemic, so kids are home. And we had this great neighbor that had kids the exact same age as our kids. Oh, wow. And so every day we would take our kids to the schoolyard and let them play together. Just like, it was very structured, like same time every day. And leading up to this incident, I'll never forget, I was just going out for a run and I'm coming back to my house and I pass a Tahoe, white guy in it, but he had a screen, like a computer. Like it looked like a fed. And it looked like a police car, but it was unmarked. And I happened upon him and he looked at me and smiled. And the minute he looked at me, it just, those old instincts, I was like, yeah, this guy is here for me. And it was just super weird. And I was looking at him and I was like, oh, how's it going?

I'm like, why are you here? He's right by my house. But I knew like just the way he reacted that I kind of caught him off guard. But he, you know, uh, knew he again had the sense that it was for me. We go home, just file in the back of my mind. It might've been a few days later. I don't remember exactly how long. We're back out with my neighbor, her kids, and our kids are playing. What we'd do is we would just, while they're playing, we'd walk around the periphery of the school and there's streets running on both sides. And as we're coming around the corner, again, school's closed, there's no one there, but the playground's open. I'll never forget this. It was a white Jeep. Jeep. Jeep Cherokee, like completely stripper, like basic model. But it was idling and it had 2 wheels on the curb. And as I pass it, I see this Asian guy in the front and on his dashboard are all these cell phones. What the fuck? And then I see in the back, there's a fucking cage, like a Faraday cage. And I'm looking at this and again, like just my old spy instincts.

I'm like, yeah, that's not fucking right.

To say the least.

And I'm like turning around, and as we're walking, it gets off the curb and starts following me. And I go to get my phone, try to take a picture of it, and it takes off. And I'm like, immediately I'm like, I put the other incident, put this together, I'm like, what the fuck is going on?

Yeah, yeah.

So, um, my neighbor's like, what was that? We were just both like weirded out. Whatever, life goes on, kids kind of go back to So the next day she, she comes down, she comes to our apartment and she's like, it was really weird. I, you know, I go out for my morning run. I'm taking the trash out. It's like 4:30 in the morning. And the way that the houses are is we have in Seattle, there's all these alleys. And so behind the alley is a shared alley. It's basically like a street where you put your garbage in. And she comes out there and she goes, that truck that we saw was parked in the back alley. And I was like, what the fuck? And I was like, okay, that is 100% Chinese intelligence. And the white guy, what the Chinese would do is they have a target list and they'll hire local detectives who have access to records. Yep, yep, yep. And they probably gave him who I was and he was going to find where I lived specifically, assess my pattern of life. And then what the Chinese were doing, because I have some friends who are former Whatever.

But they do like tailored access operations, which is like— and they're like, oh yeah, they're pulling up to your house because they're dumping your phone. They've got a target list. They have to be within this much distance. My bedroom kind of overlooked the back alley. So where he was was probably in distance to connect to my phone while I'm fucking sleeping. So I remember—

And they're actually able to break into your phone wirelessly?

He was like, He was like, they just—they explained it to me. They're like, they establish your pattern of life. They can just—you go to a tables over, and within minutes they can just grab everything they need.

Holy shit!

Yeah, I mean, it's a fucking state agency. The resources are unlimited, right? So the way that I called up one of my FBI former colleagues, I was like, "What is this? Do I need to be scared? Like, is this them sending a message?" And it's like, because it was so like they weren't trying to hide.

Yeah, it

was like so overt. He's like, no, man, you got to understand, they have a fucking list of targets. They just wanted to get— they wanted to finish with you and move on to the next one. They don't give a fuck. There's no consequence because what's the consequence going to be to them? And so we had this whole plan that if I saw them again, I was going to call 911 and be like, I think I saw a guy with a gun.

Why do you think the Chinese got on you to begin with?

Probably was more of my affiliation with Newsweek as a reporter.

Okay.

And we'd written about China.

That intelligence services target national security reporters.

Because what they want to do— so different perspective, though. What they probably want to do is want to see who we're talking to in China.

Oh, I see. That would make sense.

So, I mean, it's not that they were targets for— there was no contact. They just wanted to—

Are you talking to dissidents?

Yes. Yeah. And literally, are we— who are we talking to? I mean, and, um, it's, it's, it's fucking freaky. But that's not the only time I've had run-ins with the Chinese. I had another run-in with a Chinese intelligence officer when I was covering the inauguration. Um, literally, we're sitting at breakfast and, um, this young Asian woman like walks, sits next to us and gets really excited when she sees me, starts taking pictures and like all the Newsweek people. I was like, what the fuck is going on? At first I thought it was like a fan, but it was super weird. And so we eventually— I was like, let's just get the fuck out of here. And we left. Literally, Jack, the next morning I'm coming out of my hotel room, open the door, and she walks by my room. And so again, talk to intelligence folks that I know, and they were like, look, what you are is you are a targeted— like a targetable asset. But because you're public figure, they know that there's low risk. You don't have any security. It's like you're easily accessible. And for someone— there's the A team, the B team, the C team, the D team.

Like, you're going to see the D team because that's like they're just starting off. Right. And for her, she got excited because she's like, I got someone I can collect on. I can go back to Beijing, get a big shiny star. The A team, like, you're never going to fucking see. In fact, If you see them, you're fucking dead. Like, this shit goes on here in our country because there's not, like, laws. They're not specifically breaking laws that you can go after.

Yeah, because they exploit the freedoms we have in this country. And right now, I mean, counterintelligence has been dismantled in this country. People don't really get that.

I was hearing from friends that, like, for the agency people are going home at 4:00 PM in the afternoon. There's no work for them. It's really that bad.

I was talking to someone today about how they purged Mandarin-speaking FBI agents.

We don't fucking need that.

That work in CI.

The Russians are still at it, but the Chinese are

aggressive.

Aggressive. And they basically have endless funds and endless people.

Yeah, 1.5 billion people in China itself, right? And then China, the, the PRC, regards all the overseas Chinese as being their people also, which is bullshit. But—

Oh dude, well, and listen, my opinions on like ICE and immigration, obviously a lot of very strong opinions, but here's what I will say: the birth tourism thing

is bullshit.

It's bullshit, and it's a national security concern because what happens and what's happening now is you have someone who shows up from mainland China and they're like, I'm John Yu. I was born here 18 years ago. Here's my passport. You have no fucking idea who that person is.

Yeah.

And it's frightening because there's, you know, again, when I was at Harvard, one of the things we had to do post-9/11 was they started doing things tracking international students. And listen, no one's going to come to Harvard and disappear. here. But there are other schools where people get a student visa. You don't know who they are.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, again, they can say they're a US national that was born here but never lived here, and they just show up with that passport. How do

you— Yeah, no, I, I agree. That needs to be shut down.

I mean, that's, that's like, to me, that's a really— but that is like a minority of what we're talking about.

It's a sliver. Yeah.

Yeah. But it is, I mean, you can imagine that there are, there are probably people here who are using a passport for someone who's born here and they're not—

Absolutely.

Not them.

Yeah. Yeah.

And, and they're a US citizen. They're entitled, you know, when we go onto a military base, you have to be a US citizen. No dual citizenship. That person can present that American passport. They can join the military. They can get all sorts of things. It's kind of a frightening prospect. Yeah. Yeah.

So, um, so to, to circle back to Oleg,

We went

completely the long

way.

You give them the aerospace documents, and then the next step sort of was like the DTIC database.

Yep. Damn good memory, man. These are like details that I think a lot of people might miss. But back then, DTIC was the Defense Technical— I forget what it was. Internet

information

catalog or something. But basically it was if you got a grant from the US government to do, like, research for the Department of Defense, the agreement was that there was an IP transfer that the DOD got to you. So basically every report that was funded by the US government would end up on DTIC. And then there was another one called STIC, which was the classified version.

Gotcha.

But back then, DTIC was just like a database that once I had credentials, I could apply as a, you know, because we were a government contractor, we could, we could get access to. And this is how quickly small things can go, like unplanned things can go south. So gamed it with the FBI that, um, I, you know, we were gonna try to— I wanted to get Oleg to— and the Russians to get like a monthly salary, essentially. Like, and they start giving me, like, taskings of things that they wanted to collect on. And so they would give me search phrases and things like that to search for DTIC and print out just articles or, or, or reports based on whatever they're looking for. For the FBI, it was a nightmare because none of this stuff had been approved for release.

Right, right.

And, you know, the FBI, like, Yeah, I mean, you can't just give the Russian shit, right? But none of it was classified, even though it was like FOUO, for official use only.

So that was not like no foreign.

Yeah, yeah, which is not a classification level. So, but anyway, I had back then I had a Wi-Fi card on my laptop, which is a big deal. And I was like, I'm going to meet up next time meet Ola. I'm going to bring my laptop and I'm going to. shown. And so we met at— was it Vinnie's Clam Shack? Shittiest food shack. I don't know what this says about the Russians or it says about me, but so— and I was like not feeling well. And, um, Oleg had, uh, I remember like he'd just been giving me a hard time. At one point I got up to go to the bathroom because I was really feeling like not great, and I get into the bathroom and there's like heavyset, like, guy, like, comes bursting in to see if I'm, like, you know, making a phone call or, like, changing the batteries on my— who knows what the fuck he's doing.

Yeah, they're quite clumsy.

Yeah. Yeah. So, um, anyway, we get back to the table and I'm like, look, I've got this database. Do you wanna see it? And, uh, so we go to my car and we're sitting in some parking structure and I'm showing the database. And the agreement I have with the FBI is that it's a closed system, meaning that Like there's no way to get stuff off. He can look at it, he can download it to the computer, but it's my laptop, right? He's not— so we're letting him browse stuff. And I opened up some article just randomly because he's like, can you open this up? And obviously he's testing to see if this stuff is real. Just choose a random thing. And it's like some article on like linguistics, like the most benign, boring shit you can possibly imagine. And he's like, can I get this article? And I'm like, no, I— there's no way for me to get it off here to give it to you because we, we thought this through. And, you know, again, he'd ask for like my credentials. Can I get your login credentials? I said, no, I'm not gonna give you my fucking login.

And so he looks at me and he goes, ah, I've got an idea. And he pulls out this thumb drive that I'd just given him, which had information from Northrop Grumman on it. He goes, can you put the document on here now? I had a split second to decide what would be the reason to say no.

Right. And you're on the spot here.

Yeah. So I made the decision to put the document, this benign, what I thought was a benign document onto this. And he was very happy, put on the thumb drive, gave him the thumb drive back, went on his way. The FBI was like livid with me. They're like, you know, you should have said no. And I was like— and they're like, well, at least now we know he knows it's real. Within days, I had a voluntary warrant that I signed, turned over my laptop so they could go through it. Fucking got that laptop back, dude. I fucking smashed it up. I never want— I don't know what was put on it between the FBI and the Russians putting a Russian thumb drive into it.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, and I just remember it was this moment. I remember sitting on the lawn in my parents' front yard, just like lying down, just feeling like, oh man, this is just— I mean, the FBI completely turned on me. I went from being like a trusted, like, you know, superstar to being like, the fuck did you do? And that kind of signaled the end, the beginning of the end of the operation. And basically at that moment, again, like, I suddenly realized there's all these people that I don't know that are involved in it. Right. They all have a

And this thing has been going on for like 3 years.

3 years at this point. Yeah. So, I mean, it was fucking long in the tooth, you know? Right. Like, you, you know, it's— I started taking unnecessary risks to see if I would get caught. I mean, it just, it's like a mindfuck. But like, yeah, that was— and it was Oleg's time to leave anyway. So that sort of precipitated the decision by the FBI to basically shut the thing down. At this point because they didn't know if his subsequent replacement was gonna have the same relationship or would even make contact with me. And so they figured that they had a chance to kind of spring a trap.

Yeah. So tell us about the trap. The trap.

So everything with the FBI was like gamed out, just like with that thumb drive. So, you know, the Russians had this whole thing where like they would give me me a menu of a restaurant. Like, next time I call you, I'll give you a date and this is where we'll meet. But I won't— they won't say the location. So they gave me a menu to Pizzeria Uno's in Jersey, some like— I forget the, uh, um, but some like big mall. And so I remember sitting down with the FBI and being like, we're trying to game this out. They're like, okay, when you sit down with Oleg, we're gonna come arrest you in the restaurant. I'm like, that's a fucking terrible idea. Like, what if— this is pre, like, cell phones where everyone recorded, but I'm like, what if someone fucking recognized me? You want to make a big commotion in the middle of a restaurant? It's a bad idea. And so we came up with this idea that I was going to get them to my car, and when I took my hat off is when they would close in. And so gamed it out, everything's planned out, right?

Meet Oleg calls me and the FBI is like, you cannot go meet with him. I was like, why the fuck not? They're like, you just can't. And what I realized is that they were— I'm guessing they were arguing with the State Department about what the FBI could do with Oleg. And there's all these people weighing in of who should be in charge.

That, or they just couldn't get enough guys to come into work to serve a warrant. That wouldn't surprise me either.

Nothing would surprise me. But it basically— you're right. Like, it was just basically big FBI. Everyone was now fucking involved.

Yeah.

And it was just like this giant, like, no one— I'm in charge now. I'm in charge. Right. So

once there's some action to be had, everyone wants to get their hands dirty.

Everyone. Yeah. It was like, it was wild. So the FBI made me wait in this parking lot with them until Oleg left the restaurant. And they had to watch me until just to make sure that I wouldn't go meet with him without them knowing. And of course, in the course of action, course of this like whole thing, I, uh, I politely declined to go to a good friend's wedding that day. And a guy named Larry Cazzilla, if any of you guys watch, he's Ammo New York City. He's a big car detailer. very well known. Larry invited me to his wedding, and unbeknownst to me, um, the night before his wedding, the church he was supposed to go to had a fire. So he moved to a different church, and it just so happened it was the church that I drove by, and I had the Corvette. And I'll never forget looking at my friend. I look and I see them all coming out of the church, and there's my friend Mike Musso looking at me like, what the fuck are you doing? You said you were out of town. And for years I couldn't tell Larry or any of those guys.

They all thought that I was just skipping out on this. But meanwhile, I was driving to meet these 2 FBI agents to sit in a parking lot under 125th Street under the West Side Highway until Oleg left this restaurant.

Oh yeah, over where you mentioned the Dinosaur Barbecue.

That's right.

Yeah. And the Cotton Club was over there, which

is now gone. But it's— so I'm sitting there in a fucking parking lot with these and I'm already like, I'm like, you fuckers, like, how am I gonna explain this, uh, to the FBI? And so Oleg, imagine, left. And then he calls a week or so later, like, meet it, and, and, you know, let's do this again. So I come out, I walk into pizzeria, like, walk there, and I'm getting ready to go inside, and he— where the fuck he came from— he like walks up and he's like— so we're outside about to— I remember my hand on the iron Handle of this big, like, wooden door. He's like, hey, Naveed, how's it going? I'm like— and he pulls his hand out and he's shaking my hand. And he goes, without— and this is all them, like, this interrogation thing. So while he's holding my hand, looking me dead in the eye, he goes, yeah, so where were you next last week? And I was like, oh, my sister-in-law had— I gave some bullshit excuse. He's like, oh, okay, okay, do you mind if we switch to the different restaurant? And he's still shaking my hand.

I'm like, I'm like, fuck yeah, I mind. Like, this is the whole plan. Like,

we—I mean, that's tradecraft too, right?

Hundred percent.

Yeah.

And so I'm like, oh, I don't mind at all. And so he's like, why don't we go to fucking Uters, which is across the street? And so I'm like, it was like the longest walk between those parking lots because I'm—I imagine because

the

FBI

SWAT

team van is like they're like.

Oh, no.

They're like, what the fuck is going on? And later on, like, when I saw there was obviously FBI agents in the Pizzeria Uno's, because I know at the end when this all kind of finished, there's agents. They come running up after we'd, like, met in this parking lot to, like, cheer that we just done this. And they had fucking doggy bags, so they'd gotten their food. Yeah. So anyway, we go to Hooters. Oleg is like, I gotta tell you, this is my last time meeting with you. I'm going back to Russia, but everyone loves you. They're so excited. And I was like, well, I have some documents I want to give you. They're in my car.

He had a fat envelope for me.

Fat envelope of like $50,000 or $40,000. I can't remember what it was. Um, and he— you know, we're walking, so we leave Hooters and we're walking to the car.

He— I remember the other— before we get there, I mean, he also told you like, you're going to be a legit Russian spy. You're going to have a retirement plan, like the escrow account, like all of that shit.

So we were like, I'll never forget this. We were on the curb, Jack. And I knew the minute I stepped off the curb and walked to the car, that was it.

It was on.

And so he's sitting there, he's like, to this day, he was like, really stroking me, man. Like, really going off on this. And he's like, the people back in Russia are so excited. Like, they want to have a lobster dinner with you. And I'm like, I— the one thing I regret is I want to know what that dinner would have been like. And so he's in the same thing. He's like, we're gonna have a retirement account for you, everything you said. So that was it. I just become a made man within Russian intelligence. And I was literally standing on this curb and I could see the car. I knew when we walked.

And by the way, you don't have these documents.

No, it's all fucking bullshit.

Yeah.

So we get to the back of the Corvette. I pop the trunk, he leans in and looks at the documents. And I think at this point, he knows it's over. And I take my hat off. And just like cinematic, these 3 FBI cars, kind of Buick cars come in. And they get out. And they're like, they grabbed me. And they're like, start like patting me down. And like, I guess this really pissed off some of the agents that they were like treated like he— I don't think he handcuffed me, but he was like treating me like I was being arrested. And, um, puts me— and these are people I've never seen before— puts me in the back of the car. And the whole time I'm looking at Oleg, all he does is turn and walk away. Like all through the years, all this, like, literally 5 minutes ago, you're like, you're the, you're the best boy in the world and we're gonna give you all the— and then fucking gone.

Cold professional.

Cold professional. So we're sitting in the car driving away and these 2 FBI agents I've never dealt with before turn around, look at me, and they start high-fiving me. And I was like, what the fuck? And what is going on? And then we drive to this parking structure, there's like 50 guys there and they're all like high-fiving me. And it was just, it was It was surreal.

It's pretty interesting. I mean, first off, I think you're a madman for placing yourself between the FBI and the GRU. That's completely insane. But I thought it was very interesting and actually very cool to see in your book that the FBI actually did take care of you.

Yeah.

And they did, even offer you some closure, I think, to that experience. Bringing you back, you got to go inside the CIA office and like the direct—

No, dude, that was wild.

Yeah.

So at this time, my wife was pregnant with our first, first kid. You're a New Yorker, so you can understand the FBI was like, we're going to take you out to dinner and no big deal. Just show up at 26 Fed. And, um, you know, 6 o'clock. And so we're, we're taking a cab and there's traffic. And, uh, so we get there like late. And, uh, one of the FBI agents that I'm working with, worked with for 3 years now, meets me downstairs and get into the lobby. The building's empty, which is wild. It's a giant— if you know what 26 Fed is, it's a giant fucking building. There's no, like—

I think I may have been in there to dispute parking tickets. Yeah.

But so there's, you know, it's a federal building, so you can imagine that you don't just stroll into it. And so the first thing, sign that something was amiss was that we just walked into it and they bring me to this elevator and I'll never forget, it was like a capsule with an FBI crest on the floor. And I'm looking at the FBI agent, I'm like, this is a cool elevator. Do you take this to get to the office? Like, he's like, I've I've never been in this elevator. I'm like, huh, well, that's weird. So we get up to whatever floor, doors open, it's cubicle land everywhere, but there's not a person to be seen. And, um, then there's this— at the time, you know, probably like 50, but to me he looked like he was like, you know, ancient, right? And he's just like super cool-looking bald guy from the future. He meets me and, um, he starts talking to my wife. He's like, you should be very proud of your husband. He did, you know, did something amazing for the country. And I can't remember, but things like that. It was very— for me, it was very awkward.

I didn't— I never really thought of it that way. Uh, they'd take pictures, which I have after some pictures, like, oh, the— Something must have happened with the film. They developed and we don't know where it— bullshit. So he met with, you know, there's like a grip and grin. They hand me a check that Oleg, for the last bit of money. And of course I reported on my taxes because I'm like, I'm not fucking like me with that. So I had to pay 32, whatever, 30% on whatever he gave me.

On the gift.

Yeah, the gift. Right. I'm like, thanks a lot, guys. And then we go out to dinner and I'm walking with these like FBI agents again. I've never seen them, including the head of the New York office. And the guy's like, what did it feel like to meet the assistant director of the FBI? And I'm like, what? I, I had no idea who that was. And, um, they give me— I get a, um, a signed letter of commendation, which is at the New York— at the Spy Museum in DC. Um, one one signed from him and the other one was, oh God, was the former director of the FBI who recently passed away, Robert Mueller. So like, those were really cool to get those things. And it was only at that moment after 3 years that I sort of understood that this was, I mean, to me, Jack, it just felt, it all felt kind of absurd.

Right. And, and kind of like ad hoc almost.

Yeah. And like, how can anyone give a shit about this? But it turns out they did. And as I learned, Here's the kicker to the story. Oleg, um, just pure chance, had, uh, he was not supposed to be in that position that he was in the UN. Something had happened where his predecessor had been sent home early, so he kind of got a bump up. And Nikolai Urobov, General Urobov, um, so they have a real job, these, these spies, and for the Russian mission. And And it's to sit on what's known as the Military Staff Committee, which is an actual organ of the United Nations, and it's made up of the military members of each of the embassies to the, uh, to the UN. So if you look today at who's part of the Military Staff Committee of the UN, you look at Russia, you can assume that those people are fucking spies. Um, and the head of the MSC was this guy named Nikolai Urvov, and Urvov as I learned much later on, was the senior GRU officer in the United States. So he was in charge of all GRU operations. And, um, because he never left the residentia— he went from his house to the mission to the UN— the FBI could not get to him.

What Urvov had was this guy Oleg, who was his right-hand man, his lieutenant, who's basically his deputy. And when this person left early, Oleg got, I guess, his old accounts, which one of which was my parents. I had no way of knowing this.

Mm-hmm.

And he was not happy to do the shit work, basically. And so I think that because he saw this, he wanted to turn this into something bigger. And for the— and the reason the FBI was so intrigued about this is that they knew by getting Oleg, they got Irv off.

Mm-hmm.

So what I heard much later on is, because I met people who were tangentially— they didn't understand the full breadth of it— but on the— on our side were part of this operation at the end. And, um, my little operation like actually impacted Russia— Russian collection in the United States for like an estimated 3 to 8 months. Like they had to shut everything down, all their networks. Yeah. Because they don't know what's compromised. They don't know what numbers, what safe houses.

So did they, like, actually PNG Oleg and his boss there?

His boss never got PNG because his boss never met with me. Right. I don't know what— I've been trying to find out what happened to Urovov. I've, there's a, who's the New York Times reporter who's a former Marine I love?

There's, yes.

Neffs. Yeah, I think that's right. I was talking to him and trying to find out what happened. Urvov, I can't find any information about him. I don't know if he's like dropped dead from alcohol poisoning.

Assassinated in Donbas or something.

Yeah, exactly. Um, Oleg, we found on Russian dating sites. I don't think he had a very happy life. I think, you know, he was on the plane to back to Moscow literally the next day. The FBI followed him to JFK. And, you know, I expect it was not a very pleasant couple of months being debriefed. They told me that he was not actually PNG'd because that would have required disclosure of certain things. And I don't think— but for all intents and purposes, he's never leaving Russia ever again. And I'm sure that the Russians, you know, have some training that they do for all their GRU and SVR officers that talks about this. Sure. be a case study somewhere. Um, but yeah, his, his, I feel, I mean, his, I, I hold no ill will to him. I mean,

he was doing his job. He

was doing his job. He was a patriot for his country. You can't fault him for that. Um, the only thing I'll just say is he thought he was good, but we were just better. I mean, we really, you know, being like a young kid with literally off the street, like making this up as I went along and we were able to, to, to, to be arguably the best.

I mean, I should point out this is sort of the culmination, unintentionally maybe, of a 25-year relationship between— with your parents and the FBI. And then you coming on there, 3 years doing this.

Yeah, no, I mean, it's again, like, people need to understand that it's— this was a unique— the stars had to align, right? Like, I think if I just showed up, And they had no idea who I was. They would have never trusted me.

Right. Yeah.

So it's that it was an opportunity in that regard. Like, you can't make that stuff up, right? You— Ash Carter, that's the guy's name who— I don't know if you remember that name. He was in Trump orbit one. He's this weird guy. And there's all these records that were released of him trying to work with the Russians, and they wanted nothing to do with him. He's a perfect example of like,

you're a loser. Go away.

Exactly.

Like, you're such a loser that the Russians won't even talk to you.

Yeah, that's right. But because they, they have an assessment, they don't want crazy people. And, you know, if I just shown up and been like, I want to work for you, they would have been like, nah, that's cool, bro.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, they, they want to choose. It's all got to be about them controlling it. So, um, you're right, like, it's not recreatable. That, that opportunity, that 25 years is what was able to have this happen. It's also why they trusted me. And I think to the FBI's credit, it's probably why it was so damaging to the Russians. And that, you know, because they trusted— like, every time Oleg would call me, that's a— that number that he was calling me from, that's a piece of information. Like, is that the only number that he's using for just me? Yeah. And Oleg was tied to other operations. And I mean, one of the things I can disclose also is that the Director of National Intelligence came down, and I was never part of this, but they presented team, the National Intelligence Medal for this work. Wow. So, I mean, like, this was, again, to me, none of this was apparent at the time. Like, the significance of what was going on was, it just, all I saw was Oleg.

So the FBI did help you out with your Navy application?

I did. I, that's right. So I did get in. I remember the book, if you read the book, I mean, the joke is like, Obviously I'm alive, I'm still here, but it ends with, I can say his name now, Scott, who was the ASAC, SAC or ASAC, I can't remember. But I get commissioned in 26 Fed, a small little ceremony, and he says like, that's the same oath of office we take. Welcome to the team. And it's true. That's literally what happened. And, you know, it was, I was really excited and, you know, I kind of, Again, here's another footnote. I put— started my Navy career, put like— I was like, okay, I'm gonna transition. I'm gonna put this all in this like, you know, footlocker and move on. And, um, in true military form, there was a school that I was avoiding. This is 20— so this ended, ended in 2009, probably 2013, 2012. there's a school that the Navy wanted me to go to, and I've just been avoiding it and avoiding it and avoiding it. And it was called, um, it was like a capstone course. I can't remember what it was, but it was in this place called FITCPAC, Fleet Intelligence Center Pacific.

And so I fly out there finally. They're like, I get caught, I have to go. So I fly out to San Diego. It's like every SCIF I've ever been to. It's windowless, but in this case it's like downwind from the San Diego sewage treatment facility. So you have the added benefit of having no windows, but it still smells like shit. So we're sitting day 1, we're sitting in this windowless room, we don't have access to any of the computers, and it's just a bunch of people never met each other, and we're in a skiff. So people start trading stories about shit, and there's— I can't recount some But, but like, they're wild. Like, some pretty fucking wild stories. And for whatever reason, Jack, I don't know why. I don't know if it was like this cathartic moment. Maybe I thought I was in like a safe space, but I told the story about the Russians and people were like, oh, it's cool. And, um, so fast forward, this is like day 1. I don't know what possessed me to do this. Um, and then in the process, I had been applying for a particular 3-letter agency.

Um, you know, again, I was trying to like come full circle, come above board in the intelligence community and kind of move on. And I was applying to this intelligence agency. And, uh, so it was like an online app. The first step is an application packet. And, um, that evening, go down to the Gaslamp District with a bunch of classmates. And, you know, we're drinking. It's beautiful San Diego night. And, uh, one of these guys, one of the guys, Jake, who was my classmate, um, we're walking. Oh, like, he's from, he's from LA, and so he'd driven up, so he had his car. I was gonna take a cab back, and he's like, hey man, I'll give you a ride to your hotel. You want to ride? I'm like, sure. I've known this guy 12 hours, right? So we're walking And he goes, hey, that story you told, that was really cool. He's like, can I confide something in you? And I'm like, oh, fuck. You know, because you've been there. You're like, dude, I just met you. Like, I don't— he's like, I want to tell you a story, but you have to promise not to freak out.

I'm like, too fucking late. Like, he's like, no, no, I tell people this and they freak out and you got to tell— promise me. And I'm like, He's really laying it on, and I'm thinking, fuck, we're building it. We're we're burying a dead prostitute in the desert.

Yeah, yeah,

right. Like this is I just got here. How can this fucking be over already? Like I'm going to jail, right? And so I'm like, I I can only imagine the worst scenarios that he's about to disclose. He's like that. He's like fine. I'm like dude, enough. Just what is it you want to tell me? He's like look, that story you told that was really cool. So I don't tell a lot of people. about this, but I used to be the head writer for Jimmy Kimmel. And I was like, oh. He's like, I don't offer this, but if you ever want to write a book, let me know. And true to form, I was again applying to this particular 3-letter agency, and I came to that moment where it's like the idea of writing a book was really appealing, and I knew that if I progressed forward, I would have that like agency-built They'd have to review everything. Yeah. Publication review for, for life.

Yeah.

And so I called up my friend Jake and I was like, dude, here's a, here's a chapter I've written. I wrote this whole chapter and he's like, he introduced me, he gave it to his agent, his literary agent. She was like, I love this. And he was like, I won't tell you his name. I can't like, and finally we had a meeting. The agent was like, I wanna do this, but there was no way to validate any of this because it was not a public story. So we went out, um, just for that chapter. Uh, I had a great co-author because I've never— I never read anything more than a college paper at this point. I was not a journalist, I was not a writer. And we wrote a little treaty. Um, it got picked up by, at the time, Simon& Schuster. But what was wild, Jack, is And that pitch to the publisher got leaked to a bunch of directors, and suddenly we had this bidding war with like all these famous directors for the movie rights. So before I'd written one page of the book, we had it sold as a movie, which never got made because that's— I'm sure, as you know, like the whole media thing is—

Yeah, yeah.

But like this wild moment that I happened to be going to a school that I'd fucking not to go to, wildly told the story. This guy Jake, who happened to be the head writer for Jimmy Kimmel, happened to be there. You can't plan this shit out.

Yeah.

And that's honestly— I mean, there's a lot of work I put into this, but that pure happenstance chance, that moment is literally what propelled my entire media career. If those 2 things hadn't happened the way they did, I wouldn't be here.

Uh, and The book, How to Catch a Russian Spy, we'll have links in the description for folks who want to go check it out. So how does your media career versus your career as a Navy Reserve intelligence officer, like, how do these 2 things interact?

Very badly. So as you can imagine, it's, there's a weird thing where I was, you know, I got picked up by MSNBC. The book came out while I was still in the Navy and again went through the publication review. The Navy couldn't do anything about it. They were actually pretty cool about it, believe it or not. I remember that it went through— we were about to publish and we were waiting for the entire Navy to, like, different branches to sign off on it. I think it was like the Medical Corps had to sign off on it too. What? It's like the last one we got. So it's funny, like, I think the military is much more savvy with like influencers now, but this was pre-that. They didn't really know what to do with me. Um, but what I will say is that some— I ended up working at, uh, taking my last billet was at Defense Innovation Unit Experimental, DIUX, which was Mattis's brainchild. I got to meet him, was really cool. Um, and, and they actually saw the value of someone like me. Um, believe it or not, Jack, there there's a lot of similarities to being a spy and being a journalist.

You're cultivating sources. You're— the CIA has this manipulation, but it's— they don't look at it as a negative thing. I mean, there's, um, there's a lot of similarities in trying to, like, how you manage things and how you do sources, how you protect things. Um, it was— by the time the book came out, it was sort of like the military was split. Some people were super, like, supportive, super impressed, super cool about it. Others were just like, they didn't fucking like that I was coming out here and doing this. And I was like, what? It's a good story. Like, what do you—

Yeah, why do you even care?

Yeah, but you know how it is, like, you become a lightning rod. I had people, literally, I had people calling up saying I was appearing on TV in full uniform, which of course is like easily disprovable. But like, I, it was wild. I had people that would just, were so angry that I was doing this. They were trying to launch investigations, trying to get my clearance pulled. And it just, it became too much of a spectacle, too much to, to balance. And at this point I was like, I kind of had deviated from the traditional like career path of to promote. And I was like, I think I'm done. Um, I, you know, it was, I'm really glad I did both things. I got a really unique view into the traditional intelligence world and the completely nontraditional intelligence world, and I'm glad I got to do both. Being an undercover asset like that, dude, there's a fucking shelf life on it. You can't— For sure. You can't do that indefinitely. It's just— there's no— I mean, the joke is there's no fucking dental plan. There's no actual retirement plan.

Well, I mean, we've even interviewed like ATF guys that went undercover in motorcycle clubs.

Fucking nuts.

And you can do that once, maybe twice. Yeah. On opposite coasts. Yeah. But that's it.

Yeah. And it's also just the mental— like, it's really hard to keep that shit straight. And, you know, you start to— I have a lot of respect for those, for those men and women that do that. I mean, it's, it's legit. Like, it's fucking dangerous. It's scary. Like, I I downplay the risk, but I've had FBI agents that have talked to people, and it's really uncomfortable for me to say this, Jack, but it was like, it's the Russian government. They kill people. It's not that they're interested. There's no— they're not looking at— it's not personal. Yeah,

but if I was just business.

That's right. But if I got in the way of something that was more important, they wouldn't think twice. Twice. You know, Oleg wouldn't have thought twice to put a— you know, I'm sure you've talked to people like this, but I have talked to people where, you know, these are fucking stolen cold killers and they're laughing with you, and you just know that if, if they had to, they'd put a fucking bullet between your eye. It's the same sort of thing. Like, they wouldn't hesitate. Um, and again, it wouldn't have been personal. Like, um, so there's a level of danger every time I walked into a place. I didn't— your safety is not guaranteed. And you had to trust that the FBI was there. And if something went south, they would, they would have your back. And I, I generally believe that that's probably true. I did actually trust them.

But there wasn't like a SWAT team in the van standing by.

You, I mean, if there was, I would never know.

Until that last day anyway.

Yeah, that's right. That's right. No, you, I mean, that's not what they were going for. And, right. Yeah. But I mean, like, who's that Navy chief? What's his name's wife? The guy in Washington. who met with— meeting with an asset in Iraq in some marketplace, and it was like low-level risk and detonated.

Oh, you're talking about Shannon Kent?

Yes. I can't believe I forgot the name. But I mean, listen, that shit is dangerous. I mean, obviously that's a war zone, but you're not dealing with

normal

people in normal situations. part of a large organization. And if that organization decides that you need to go because it benefits them, you're going to go.

Yeah. I mean, there is like this clandestine intelligence. Like, it is this thinking bureaucracy, but you're not privy to any of that information.

No. And that was the thing that really fucked with me. It's funny. I never really talk about this too much, but there was a point also where I remember again, I was— I'd been sent to another school by the FBI. We're in some vault in a classroom in Crystal City with another agency, and we're just sitting there doing an analysis course. And I got like this really bad eye infection. And I went to— this was years later— I just went to the, like, you know, sick hall. And, um, there was something about the No, they just do your vitals and put the blood pressure sleeve on. It's about having my, like, sitting there and sort of being restrained and like not being able to move. I had a complete like panic attack. And I realized at that moment, like, holy shit, the stuff that I did, like, it caught up to me. Yeah. You can only repress shit for so— it's like not a natural thing to like— I would walk out and I'd be like, there's a black van there. I've never seen that before.

Right.

What is it? And I'd be like, I don't have time to think about this. I just got to go.

Yeah. Soldiers get post-traumatic stress, but spies inherit this, like, strong sense of paranoia a lot of times.

Dude, like, it is something to this day when I go to a restaurant, I always want to have my back against the wall. Like, it's, it's, it's not combat, but it is like this intense feeling. I don't like being in, like, like crowds. I don't— there's like, it fucks with you. And just like with, I imagine, being in combat, the only way you can function is to repress. It's not a natural thing.

You disassociate from it, you compartmentalize it, but that only works for so long.

Right. And I think that was like that moment where I'm like, fuck. Yeah. I'll never forget that. It was just sitting in the nurse is like looking at me like, what the fuck is wrong? The doctor comes in and goes, oh, it's white lab coat syndrome. And I'm like, fuck, what is happening? Like, but, you know, years of just not like being terrified,

right?

But like trying to turn it off so I could function. Eventually it's like not a natural thing. And that's what I'm saying. We talked about this. Like, normal people can't do this. They can't lie and they can't live like that. Yeah. It's not a normal thing. And eventually it all, it all, you know, for normal people, it all comes fucking catching, right? You know what I'm talking about?

And where, where are you at today? I mean, you're still working in media?

Yeah. So I'm lucky enough, you know, I got out of the military and I was lucky enough to kind of do the 2 things that I love, which is tell stories and do so with the military. So I host a show on Newsweek for Newsweek called Unconventional. You can find us on YouTube. I've been able to do some really amazing things. I've actually got to fly a B-2 stealth bomber, which is wild. So I've flown all— I've been flown in all 3 Air Force bombers, the B-2, the B-1, the B-52. I've been in every leg of the nuclear triad. I've gone on a ballistic missile submarine for 68 hours. Seen, gone down to Minuteman ICBMs, got to touch one, got to see one launch, obviously no nuclear warhead. Um, and yeah, I, I just, I'm really, you know, the military for me is like, I'm not gonna say it's like the most— you have, we all have our criticisms of it.

Sure.

But I think it is probably one of the most American things you can do.

Yeah.

And I'm lucky enough to get to cover it. Most importantly, I'm lucky enough to tell stories of these young people, which is really what I don't care about the generals or the admirals. But when I sit down, I talk to like a 20-year-old kid working on a Minuteman ICBM, and I ask him like, this is wild that you're doing this shit. What do you want the American people to know? And he looks at me without— there's not a rehearsed line. He looks at me, he goes, I want them to know that I worked really hard to get here. And that's like an honest answer.

Yeah.

And for all the criticism that the military faces, there's a lot of people that they're very proud of what they do and they've worked really hard. It's a social and economic mobility tool for them.

Sure.

So, yeah, but show Unconventional, really cool. If I can plug it. Yeah, absolutely. Go to YouTube. Newsweek Unconventional. Check out some of our episodes. You know, it's good stuff if you like espionage. The background of having, you know, this intelligence, I think, has given me access to a lot of things that most people don't get to. Like, you know, like I said, to fly a B-2, which was, again, a wild moment when they were like, you can fly it. And then I land and the Air Force like, hey, the part of The non-rated pilot flying the 1 of 20, $20 billion aircraft. Could you maybe not post that? But yeah, man, I'm really grateful that life has turned out okay. I really can't complain. It's been a wild ride, and I would not recommend— if you want to join the military, there are easier ways to do it. I would definitely go that route. You don't have to Spent 3 years doing this.

Yeah, dude. I mean, when the Iraq War was pumping, you showed up in the recruitment office. Oh, you're not saying no.

Yeah, you're not kidding. And now, listen, it's a different world for young people joining. I mean, we can talk about Hagstaff and all that, but listen, the motivation is still the same. There are still people out there that just want to do.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

And I don't know, that's like, you talk about Russia and you talk about China. I think that's a pretty amazing thing about America. There are people that legitimately, you can disagree with policy, but they want to do that job and they want to do that job for what that job is.

Yeah, exactly. They're not forced into it. They're not drafted. As you point out, for some people, it's a way of upward mobility in life, which is totally fine. Yeah. You know, and they serve honorably, as the vast majority of them do. But that there are people who just actually want that job.

I know it's surprising to you.

And, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. That, you know, you want that challenge. Yeah. You know, not everyone wants an easy job.

No, no. I mean, when you meet a 20-year-old Marine and you're like, this looks miserable, and they're like, no, I really want be here. I want this challenge. Like, I— Yeah.

It worked hard to get there.

Yeah. Yeah. And you know what? Like, this country's better for having people like that.

You need people. Yeah, no, absolutely.

You need people like that. And, and you know what I hope is that, what the experience with the Russians left me with is a deep sense of like how important national security is, how important deterrence is. We, you and I can talk about the negatives and I, And I completely agree. There's a lot of shit out there right now that I'm not cool with. A lot of people in power that I don't want them to be making decisions about our national security. But all that aside, I'm 100% behind the young people that join. We need them.

Yeah. Yeah.

And like, if they weren't there and they weren't lethal and they weren't good at what they do and they weren't committed, this country wouldn't be what it is. It is. It's wild for a lot of people to think this, but I fully believe that every day Beijing and Moscow, they wake up, they look at us, they look at our military, and they say, today is not the day. I absolutely unequivocally believe that.

Oh yeah. I mean, you don't think the Pacific would be like World War III if we were around?

They would be. Yeah, exactly.

Come on.

Taiwan would not be Taiwan. Yeah. I think that's one thing that I realized that The reason the Russians are here collecting intelligence against us, they're doing it today, is because they fear us as a threat. And if they didn't fear us as a threat, they'd be a lot past further than Ukraine.

Just the fact that we exist, that we are a democracy and that we make it work is a threat to their system of governance.

Yes, that's right.

Because people in their country look at it like, maybe that could work here.

Yeah, yeah, that's right. And yeah, I mean, so even on our worst day, I'd rather be in the United States than anywhere else, right? Like,

yeah.

And, you know, again, it's just, I am, I'm immensely grateful. The torch has been passed, right, to the next generation who wear the uniform today. And politics have nothing to do with this. It is strictly national security. And if they weren't doing the jobs that they did, and some of them are hard, some of them are mindless. Some of them are just like you're just sitting there watching a piece of grass, right? Like at a guard shack, right? Yeah. But it all matters. I really believe that. I think that if we didn't have that, you know, what would stop Russia or China from doing their shit?

Is there anything else you want to talk about? Is there any other books on the horizon here?

There's no books. We'll see. I mean, I think we have some really cool stuff coming out on the show.

Okay.

Just flew in the E-4B, which is the Doomsday Jet.

Oh, yeah. We were just talking about that on the last interview.

Oh, you were? Really?

Yeah. Because the gentleman was a survivor of the attacks on the Pentagon in 9/11. I'm trying to remember the position he was in. He was like the deputy, deputy Joint Chief Secretary guy. He was right there. So he knew about all that stuff and that they sent up the doomsday plane that day.

So we got to fly in that. That's coming out at the end of the month. That'll be a really cool— and I got to tell you, that thing is like a cult thing, Jack. We were flying in it and People were sending me pictures of it, like, over their state, like, is this you? And I'm like, how the hell did you know that we were flying that? So if you like stories, check out our stuff. It's completely apolitical. It's really something that'll make you feel proud. There are just some really good human interest stories. We just did one on Artemis, which I think was probably one of the most beautiful stories we've told. Artemis, of course, is the return to the moon. We We did something about— we did a story about how the Navy recovers. As long as there's been manned missions to outer space that splash down, Navy's done. It's a really cool thing. And people don't realize this, how important that if the astronauts don't splash down and aren't safely delivered, the mission fails, right? Yeah. And

it's pararescue guys that go in.

Yeah. And EMTs. And we interviewed everyone. including down to the cooks. And like, the cooks were like, I'm a cook, you know, I'm a cook on a boat, on a ship. Like, we have a lot to do with morale. But when the astronauts came back, one of the first things they said is, what do you want? What can we do to make you happy? And they're like, we want a burger. And I got to cook them a burger. He's like, that's a story that I'm gonna do live on for the rest of my life. And it's like, yeah, man, stuff's cool. Yeah. It's just, you know, I don't know. In this day and age, man, it's nice to see people who like this idea that they can belong to something that's bigger than them, especially young people. I think especially, you know, we, we rag on the younger generation, but I actually think they're gonna, you know, man, at some point they're gonna be taking care of us.

Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, there's this, like, there's a whole sidebar, but there's like this interesting trajectory because I do a lot of these interviews and I meet a lot of people start off as a young soldier, you're very, you know, a go-getter, very excited to have these like formative experiences. And then guys spend the entire rest of their career chasing that initial experience they had. You know, they want to be back on a team. They want to be, you know, in the mix doing that. And that's very hard to do, actually. Yeah. As you, as you promote up through the, through the bureaucracy. And then eventually what sets in is this, you know, you become jaded. cynical, like, I'm done with this shit, get me out of here, I'm ready to retire.

Yeah.

But as you're— as you are there, there is an 18-year-old kid joining the Army at that same exact moment, and this is his moment.

Yeah.

He's having this big experience.

That's right. You know,

that you had.

I think as, as you get older, it's important to, like, like I said, literally pass the torch. I know guys that are, like you said, that are still still chasing that. It's like, dude, what are you— you're 58 years old.

Yeah, it's over. At least that part of your life is over.

And that's okay. I think as dudes, especially if you've lived that life, it's really hard.

It's very hard. Yeah.

But I don't know about you, but I'm really happy. Dude, my knees hurt just getting out of bed. Chasing 26-year-olds climbing down missile silos or submarines. It's like, dude, I can't.

In my mind, I can still do it.

Yeah.

But I know intellectually on some level that if I went and did, like, I'd last like 2 or 3 days.

Yeah. And you're like, there's a reason I got out. And that's okay. So, I mean, look, it's— I think for dudes, we all want that sense of adventure, that sense of accomplishment. And

you just have to find something else to fill that void.

But let's be honest, there's like a shelf life physically. for you to be able to do that.

Oh yeah, absolutely.

And I'm really grateful. I'm sure you feel this too, you know, grateful that I got to do it when I physically could do it.

Yeah, you can't be a soldier forever. Yeah. Uh, even these federal, um, you know, the FBI, the CIA, there's mandatory retirement ages. Like, real life is gonna hit you. Yeah, you know, you could delay it as long as, you know, for quite a while, but eventually, yeah, you're gonna have to figure it out.

I'll say this to the camera, one of the biggest things I'm sure you can agree with, is like there's a point you're gonna hit in your life where you're too old to go do something. And while you're young is the chance, you know. I don't want to tell anyone to join the military, it's a very personal decision, but there are things you can do when you're 18, 20, 30 even.

There are caps. I mean, to become an NYPD officer, I mean, there are age limits. Yeah.

And, and even if it's like just go travel to the Amazon or, you know, travel the world. There are things that you can do when you're young that when you're our age—

When you have a wife and kids and a career, it becomes a little harder. That's right.

And then you reach our age and you're like, it's that moment of regret. Like, I wish I had done that. You don't ever want to be that. You don't ever want to be 40 or 50 years old wishing you had done something that you can't do.

Yeah, no, 100%. Well, thank you, Naveed, for coming in and doing this interview. This is great. I love the book. People can go and check it out. Again, it's out there, How to Catch a Russian Spy. That's it, man. I really appreciate you coming on tonight.

Of course, Jack. Really appreciate being here.

Yeah. And yeah, for everyone else out there, we'll talk to you next time. Thanks for tuning in.

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