Transcript of #329 Justin DeLoretto - Ex-Mongols President Reveals What Really Happens Inside a 1% Club New

Justin DiLoretto, how you doing?

Good, good. Thanks so much for having me on, bro.

Thanks for coming.

So yeah, we just had, uh, our mutual friend on.

I saw that, I saw that.

And then, uh, and then we connected, and so here we are.

Yeah, I appreciate it, man.

Diving into the biker gang, one-percenter lifestyle.

Yeah, yeah, they're gonna kill me if I don't correct those. Motorcycle club, but You call it what you want.

Oh shit. But, uh, man, just going picking through your outline, you got a hell of a life story, man.

It's been a wild one.

Love what you're doing now. Thank you so much. Really fucking cool, man. So I'd like to do full-blown life story on you and—

cool—

all that.

Awesome.

Excited to get into it.

Cool. All right, let me start you off with an intro.

Justin Mooch DiLoretto, you spent years in street gangs before becoming a chapter president in the Mongols Motorcycle Club. During a nearly 15-year run with the Mongols Motorcycle Club, you helped lead the club's expansion across the Northwest, Midwest, and Australia. You served as president of several chapters before rising to regional representative. You reinvented yourself as a social worker and mental health therapist helping at-risk youth. You documented that journey in your book, The Ride of My Life: From Street Gangs to Motorcycle Clubs to Social Worker.

It's quite the arc.

Yeah, quite the arc.

But, um, yeah, and then before we get going, a couple things here. Everybody gets a gift.

Awesome, thank you so much.

Vigilance Elite gummy bears, made in the USA, legal in all 50 states.

Cool. At least for another year. Yeah, when they outlaw red dye.

But, uh, and then I got a Patreon account.

Patreon's, uh, it's a subscription account. We've built it into quite the community. And, uh, to be honest with you, they're the reason I get to sit here with you today.

Very cool.

Uh, so they get the opportunity to ask every single guest a question. This is from Mech: How would you apply your life experience and testimony to today— to today's children to be tomorrow's community support on aspects pertaining to a strong family unit, along with accountable, interactive fellowship and brotherhood, sisterhood within a local community?

Yeah, you know, I think every, especially male youth, is in this search for identity, right? And to be surrounded by people with similar morals and values, and, you know, at an early age, maybe you don't recognize it, but we're pulled together. It's just this tribalism. And I think, you know, from my experience of what I've learned, is if you can get involved in positive attributes like prosocial activities. Like for me, wrestling was huge for me growing up because I got to learn personal accountability. If I was losing, it was my fault. I couldn't blame the quarterback. But I also got to be a part of the team and travel with the team and see the role my, my, my role played in the whole, in the bigger picture. And so I think, you know, getting youth involved in these prosocial activities, getting them to learn these positive lessons instead of, you know, hanging out unsupervised with negative peers, You know, that plays a really big role. And then on top of that, I came from a very tight-knit Italian family. So I had a lot of support even when I was in trouble. I mean, I learned, you know, they make sure I was learning lessons, but I still always had that support.

And, you know, not everyone has that these days. There's a lot of single-parent households. A lot of the youth I work with, their parents are, you know, they're single parent and they're working all the time. So also trying to find that community piece, I think, is super important. I think a lot of that's been lost where neighbors don't talk to each other. But if people are friendly and they open up, or you find like-minded people or shared morals and values, and you find this community, be it church groups or, you know, there was all sorts of different stuff that were— if it's your identity is tied to it or your hobbies are tied to it. So I think that would be the link. That would be the important part is finding a community instead of trying to do things on your own.

That's— I mean, it seems like the whole One common theme of your entire life is looking for brotherhood.

For sure.

From, from being a kid to young adult to, I mean, even today it seems like that.

Am I right?

Yeah, absolutely.

Where, where did, uh, where did that come from?

You know, on reflection, I think maybe it's from being an identical twin. Um, you know, everywhere I went I had somebody with me, you know, like, I mean, family vacations, school, um, you know, any kind of— we followed in each other's footsteps for the most part. I think that played a big role. I think starting sports really early, um, all of my pretty much everyone in my family was a schoolteacher or sports coach. So I, you know, played every sport there was growing up and really got into wrestling. And so I was always in this team thing. And I think I was kind of— once that started, I really kind of kept it going. But I also think being a twin is trying to identify— at least the goal at the time was to kind of come up with my own identity. And at the time, I don't think I realized it, but looking back, there was this big piece of like separating myself. We're not two people, I'm one, and finding this identity piece. And I think that played a strong role in it as well.

Is that to do— I have twin nephews. Is this a— they're very young. Is this, is this a common thing with between twins searching for your own identity?

Yeah, I would think so, because the tough part is, right, like most people, their parents dress them the same when they're young, right? And they go to the same school and then the same grade and they share the same friend group. One thing my parents try to do is in high school, they separated. We went to different high schools. I lived with my grandparents, actually. And yeah, we went to different high schools. Which initially the plan was so we didn't have to compete at the same weight class. But in reality, it was so we could try and develop our own peer groups and, you know, have different— like, I was— he was in the country and I was in the city. But what that little experiment taught me is it didn't help much. Like, we still— we still, you know, his friends would come over, mine would come, and we all got to know each other and we'd have this big overlap. But yeah, I definitely think, like, you know, if you spend a ton of your time with somebody, it's— eventually people refer to you as the twins, right? And then so, like, wanting to, like, stand out on your own, and not be, you know, just conjoined with somebody else the whole time.

Makes a hell of a lot of sense. All right, let's start at the beginning.

Cool.

Where'd you grow up?

I grew up in Salem, Oregon, so the capital of Oregon. And like I said, I grew up, um, in a tight-knit Italian family. So we did, you know, all the breakfast or all the dinners on Sundays, uh, every holidays and birthdays, and a real supportive community. Most of my family members were school teachers, My biological father and mom were never married. And then he went to prison when I was 6, I believe, for 10 years. But then my stepfather, he was like my dad. He was my role model. He was, he was, he came into our life when I was around 5. And that's around the time they married. So he was in, you know, he was involved a lot more than my biological father was. I know growing up, my mom wanted us to have a relationship with my dad. So we'd go visit him in prison once a month. And one of those things upon reflection was, was like, wow, okay, I was exposed to some things that, you know, nothing crazy, but just getting used to that. That system, right? Like, and just the institution. And, you know, one of the things I've learned as I got older is you don't know what's normal and what's not when you live in a household and that's what you see.

You know, it's not stuff people talk about often.

It's your normal.

It's your normal, you know? And we see it a lot with, you know, children of abuse and, you know, domestic violence, all that stuff. It's not like you go to your friend's house and talk about it normally, right? And so you think that's normal until you have other experiences. And so I think not knowing my father, my you know, not having that type of relationship with my biological father. But then, like I said, we started playing sports, you know, got really involved in team stuff. And then I really fell in love with wrestling at a very early age.

And do you, do you remember your biological father?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's still like, he's in my life. He's been— I hate to say it because he'll probably watch it, but I equate to him like as a friend. Like, we talk often. He's, as his older years, he's been very supportive and he's been great. Now at the time, you know, he would write me letters and I'd visit him once a month. And when he got out, we would go see him every couple of weekends or whatever. But, you know, he was figuring his life out too. He just gotten out of prison and trying to figure out what was next. And so he played a role in my life, but it wasn't like the necessarily the father figure like my stepdad did.

Do you remember when he went to prison?

Yeah. Yeah.

Tell me about that.

So he was involved in a cocaine conspiracy drug dealing operation and Again, thinking about things you don't notice till you look back on, like we'd spend the weekends there and there'd be stacks of cash on the, you know, in the kitchen or on the coffee table. And I'm, you know, I'm like 5, 6 years old. So, you know, I didn't really think much of it. But, you know, he had the jet boat. We used to go skiing and, you know, kneeboarding and inner tubing and stuff. So he had all the nice stuff. But I remember people were coming and going all the time. I remember his house got robbed once and I was thinking, who would rob my dad? That's crazy. You know, there was a— yeah, there was a very specific memory I have of me and my twin brother in the backseat of a car. And he got out of it talking to a friend, like kind of in the country. And he had like a Uzi and he was— they were shooting at pot plants with it. And, you know, things like these, these random memories of stuff like that. And I remember coming home from school and my mom telling me, hey, you know, your dad was raided by the FBI, DEA.

And I was like, well, why? My dad's never done anything. You know, like it didn't— my young mind couldn't comprehend it.

So it came— that came as a complete surprise to you.

Yeah, I just, I think I was too young to understand like what drug dealing even was or—

Yes, that's true.

You know, I remember at one point he lifted up his mattress and showed us some guns. Like he didn't let us touch them or anything, you know, but still. But in my young mind, it was like BB guns because I remember when she said that he got arrested with one of the things he had was guns. I was like, but they're BB guns, you know, because it was my young mind and it quite, you know, my young mind was probably trying to make sense of it, you know, like I can recall being dropped off there before and he'd still be asleep because probably up late, you know, things like that. Again, don't comprehend understand why. It just, it was part of dealing with Dad.

Um, did it come as a surprise to your mom?

I don't think so.

She knew.

Yeah.

Or at the very least, so his, his whole side of the family either died of drug overdoses or been in prison.

Holy shit.

He grew up as a foster youth, um, and it didn't, you know, kind of an abusive household and alcoholic family. And, um, so we had a really rough upbringing. And so in fact, when we were born, we took my mom's side of the family's last name, DiLoretto. My grandpa, my dad's last name, Miola, or DiMiola, we didn't take it because you know, they're the stigma, so to speak, which I guess I didn't help out with the DeLaReto name eventually. But yeah, so there was, there was already kind of that piece, right, where, where they were already kind of in trouble and, and known for that. In fact, my high school wrestling coach went to school with my dad and, you know, would tell me like he loved my dad, but he used to, he called him a hood, you know? And he goes, yeah, your dad was a great guy, but he was lumped in with the hoods. And, you know, I don't want to see you go down that road. So they kind of had a reputation.

So you got it. You— he was a good dad.

Yeah.

You were close.

Yeah.

You didn't know anything was going on. I mean, he cared about— he loved you guys.

Yeah. Yeah. And always has. I mean, like I said, especially now as an adult, he takes—

he's—

we become very close. But even then, like, he did what he could, you know. I just think there was a lot of different factors in his life that put him on a different path.

How was it integrating in with the— with your stepfather?

Good. My stepfather's like, so he comes from like a working-class family. They ended up buying 7-Up RC franchise. So they were all like, he has an engineering degree. He's like, he's a lot different than my biological dad, but the kindest, nicest guy. And there was no jealousy or insecurities. They both got along well.

Wow. Wow.

Now, my dad's girlfriends all the time didn't always get along with my mom. I remember. Oh, okay. I remember that because I think, you know, my mom had us when we were 22. And so, you know, when you're a kid and you think of your parents or they're old, you know, and I'm like, I remember my mom dropping us off at my dad's one time and my dad's girlfriend fighting, fist fighting my mom. And my mom's not a fighter, but I, you know, it's one of those things I remember as a kid. And I was— now I'm like, at first, you know, I was like, why would, why would someone's mom fight? And I'm like, she was like 27 years old, you know, like, it wasn't that crazy. Shit.

Shit. Any other brothers and sisters?

I have a little brother, Kyle, that passed away. Right before his 11th birthday in 2002. And then, and then, and because of that, my parents wanted to have another kid. So I have a sister that's 22 years old now.

How did he pass?

It was an ATV accident. So my, my stepfather, they moved out to the country and their family had like 120 acres, 140 acres outside of town. And so we grew up riding four-wheelers and quads and stuff. And he first had the Power Wheel four-wheeler, you know, the Power Wheels one. And then he had like the mini pull-start ones, and then he ended up having the full-size Ranch one. And he was out riding around with his buddies and he was riding home for dinner and he had ran out of gas. He was on a hill, so he leaned over to put it on reserve and the ATV just rolled over on top of him and suffocated him. Shit.

Damn. I'm sorry to hear that.

Yeah, thank you. That was a tough time for sure.

How old were you when that happened?

He, uh, 20, 20, right between 20, 21.

Oh, okay. Wow. Quite a difference.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But see, I was really close with him, so I was the one that picked him up from school. And because, like I said, I lived with my grandparents So I would be the one to pick him up from school. I got him super into punk rock. He actually, for a school project, he had to like write about the best day of his life. And I still have it framed where it was a day out with me where he came and watched my band practice and I got him to hit the heavy bag and I took him to a hockey game and he got to meet my friends, you know? And I got into that, like the punk rock and the anti-racist skinhead culture. And so like he would want to dress like me and he had like his little Ben Sherman button-downs and Doc Martens. So we were really close, man.

Wow.

Wow. Damn, that's tough. You still have that framed?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Where is it? It's at my mom's house. It's like my collectible stuff that I don't want to lose because I move around.

Right on, man. Right on. So you got into wrestling?

Yeah. Yeah. My uncle— my uncle wasn't a wrestling coach, but he was— he was a football and basketball coach, but he was kind of in that circle. And he would— he would teach me and my brother stuff even before we started the mat club. And he would always try to get me and my brother fighting each other all the time. So he tried to show us the cool stuff. My biological father was into boxing, and so, you know, he was trying to get us into boxing really young, but we're, you know, 2, 3, 4 years old. Um, I was always told, and I don't have a memory of it, but I was always told that there was a time where my dad put me and my twin brother in a, in a diaper box and had his boxing.

Oh shit, that's awesome. How did you— I'm just— I mean, how did you—

did you reconnect with your dad?

Was there your biological father? Was there an absence there? I mean, obviously was once a month, but did it just completely fall off?

It never completely fell off, but it definitely wasn't consistent. And that's because I was towards the end of high school when he got out, and, um, you know, I'd go stay with him, but a lot of times was like I'd go stay with him because he wouldn't tell me what to do, and I could be able to, you know, have my friends over, go out when I wanted. So I kind of took advantage of that. And then, um, yeah, he'd struggle with addiction too, on and off. And so there'd be times where we just wouldn't hang out or I wouldn't talk to him. And then, you know, just kind of life happened. He was— he's the one, the first one that I ever knew that rode a motorcycle. Like, I have pictures of us like 4 or 5 years old sitting on his gas tank of his old Harley. And he did some prison time with the local club, the Gypsy Jokers. And so when we— once my brother and I started the club and started hanging out, then he was coming around more. In fact, the one and only time— well, we have since, but the first time I ever rode motorcycles with him side by side, I was in a club called the Vagos and My dad was on my brother's bike and we were riding through town and we got pulled over for not stopping at the line on a stop sign.

We get pulled over and turns out the cop that pulled us over used to be a corrections officer who knew my dad from prison. And I'm like, oh great, you know, here we go. And my dad didn't have a motorcycle endorsement or anything and the guy didn't notice, so he let us go. We get about half a mile down the road, we get pulled over again. This time the cop there used to be the school resource officer of my school, so he knew me. And, uh, they impounded the bike. Um, and so then I had to have a girlfriend come pick me and my dad up, and that was like our first time riding motorcycles together.

Damn, dude. Damn.

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All right, back to, back to childhood. So you got into wrestling. What happened? Where do we go from here?

Yeah, so, you know, grade school was grade school, except for all the sports. Around junior high school is when my stepfather and my family moved out to the country, so outside of town. So we switched junior high schools for a minute, and it was a different vibe than— we were in like the south side of town. It was kind of more like the working-class, middle-class community. And going out to this country school, it was, you know, there was a lot— that's where it was like, you know, a lot of kids were fighting. It was just that kind of country thing, you know. And, um, this is really when that identity piece started coming to play, because before I was just like, uh, the jock, right? I was like, I loved basketball and sports, and, um, you know, everyone was kind of getting into the skater crowd scene and those things. And I started first getting involved in listening to punk rock and just trying to figure things out. And that's when, like, we started getting in trouble for fighting. My twin brother used to— he'd been in trouble for fighting since like the third grade or fourth grade.

And but in junior high, he was getting suspended for fighting. We were getting in trouble for stuff like that. And then you both were. Yeah, he was getting in trouble more than I— he was fighting more than I was back then. We kind of switched roles later on.

What were you guys fighting about?

Just high school or junior high school stuff. Probably nothing, just ego, or, you know, we were the new kids.

So would you consider yourself a troublemaker then? Yeah, yeah, for sure.

I mean, I went— yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, we were troublemakers. But like I said, we had— our family was supportive, but there was always consequences. Like when my brother got suspended in the 7th grade my dad was going to put in a septic tank, and he decided he wasn't gonna— he wasn't gonna order the backhoe. He was gonna make my brother dig the ditch because he was suspended. So my brother dug this huge hole for the septic tank, and then my dad goes, 'Ah, fill it back in. I'm gonna put it over here.' So there was consequences for it. It wasn't like the family was turning a blind eye. I mean, they were doing what they could.

They—

we were probably the, the first pain— pain in the asses under that, the last name, that group, you know. And so there was this like struggle to try and keep us, you know, get us back in line, get us back on track.

What were you guys getting into?

Well, early on it's like, like once I got into punk rock stuff and then, um, once I got— yeah, 7th, 8th grade, it still was just, you know, the basic like high school, you know, hallway fights and stuff. But when I went to— I went back to high school, so my parents had separated us, like I was saying, for schools. And so he was going to the country school for wrestling and then I was at the end like back in the city.. And my freshman year I was into this punk rock band, the Dead Kennedys, and the back of my shirt said Nazi punks, fuck off. And, um, at this time in that, that area, there was this white power skinhead group called Volksfront that was getting very large. And most of 'em were either seniors or had graduated, but they would still hang around on campus. And so I got beat up my first day at school for having this. They kept calling me a sharp, which I didn't know what it meant. Um, cuz it's pre-internet where you can't just type stuff in and look it up, you know? Um, but essentially it was because I was anti-racist, you know, I got beat up over it.

And so, I shifted from— that was a big moment for me because then I was like, I'm going to get picked on and bullied for this. I want to know what it is. And I really started looking into that skinhead movement and the traditional roots of it and the anti-racism part of it. So I started slowly starting to dress that way. And so now I'm having this like conflicts with these guys often, and it just continued all through high school. And it escalated to the point where in my mind I was doing some social justice work, right? Like I'm anti-racist, but in reality it was pretty much just doing gang stuff. It was us versus them. So I was getting in a lot of, you know, there was fights. Thankfully, at that era, there wasn't quite shootings and stuff yet. But I mean, you know, people were getting stabbed with bottles. I mean, it was escalating, escalating pretty quick.

How old are you?

I was in high school, so I got my first felony at 16 for assault, and then I got a felony again at 18 for assault. So it was— that was just kind of like our lifestyle was fighting.

Let's back up a little bit.

Yeah.

So hold on. So you switch schools, you're going to a city school. There's a skinhead gang, a bunch of racists. You're an anti-racist, right? So did you start a gang eventually?

Yeah. So there— so the term SHARP stands for Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice. And it's— it was like back in those days, it was like an organization, almost a gang. And I never quite aligned with that. I was anti-racist, but I never like claimed it, right? But eventually, you know, I'm dressed in a certain way. And it would attract other people that are into stuff like that. So I found this other dude that was into that stuff, and then some of the buddies on the wrestling team liked the music and the fashion of it, so they wanted— so the next thing you know, there's a few of us. And, and, uh, yeah, we banded together initially with the goal to defend ourselves and fight back against these Nazis. And then, you know, it just kind of progressed. And so then a couple years later, we moved to Portland, we joined the bigger gang, and then it's kind of kept progressing.

So hold on, let's— 16, you get arrested for a felony.

Yeah.

What was that for?

There was a guy in our gang, the Capital City Hooligans, that was getting, uh, harassed by this other kid that was not really coming to school often, but he would hang out at the bus stop after school. And I was— thought I was Mr. Protector, you know, I was gonna go protect my buddy. So I went up and hit the kid. And at that time, pretty young age for him to be involved in drug use, but he was involved in drug use. So when I hit him It collapsed the sinus cavity, broke his nose, and cracked his eye socket. So he had major surgery damage, so it made it a felony charge. And I was arrested and spent 3 years on probation and going to Scared Straight program, anger management, cutting lawns for the county, those types of things. And I had to miss half a season of wrestling.

Shit. And stabbings happening in high school? Well, describe the first time that happened.

Yeah, yeah.

So it's same thing against the Nazi guys. Um, one of the guys in our, in our group had run into those guys and they, they stabbed him with a screwdriver, but he got stabbed in the stomach and, and then twice in the stomach and then I think twice in the leg because he was like kicking up at him when he fell down. So, so I mean, and then things start to escalate after that, you know, because then you're like, oh hey, these guys are gonna stab me, so then you carry a knife.

And this— so did anybody— I mean, did that Did the fear get to anybody? Was anybody like, fuck this, I'm out?

That's tough to say because just like with the club stuff we'll get into later, but when you're wrapped up in it, you know, and especially like at this age, you know, I'm clearly not mentally developmental to the point where I'm like being mature. I'm like all off fight or flight. I'm in this zone of, you know, I've got this image, I'm a tough guy, no one's gonna mess with me. So I, I I don't think I really thought of consequences, or I know I didn't think of consequences. And I was so wrapped up in it that, um, the fear really wasn't there. And because there were— I mean, these guys would come to my house and bang on my windows, you know, and I have to go outside and fight them.

And holy shit.

And it was like, if we were on a lunch break and we'd go out, you know, we'd leave campus to get lunch, sometimes they'd be there at lunch. And, and like I said, these guys were either seniors or older, and I wrestled at £124, man. I wasn't a big guy.. And so, yeah, we were just like, felt like if we were out in the community, it's either they were going to attack us or we attack them. So there was this back and forth thing that started out really early. Wow.

How much of your time did this consume?

I mean, that was my high school for the most part. I mean, I was— I took wrestling less seriously, unfortunately. I never ended up wrestling in college because, like I said, I missed that semester. I was more into, you know, had this image of the tough guy and And also at the same time, we were doing the political aspect of it too, right? Like my mom was like going to the PTA meetings talking about that the school wasn't doing anything about those neo-Nazis. They were putting like leaflets and pamphlets all over the school and on lockers. And like, so there was like this community, it was an organization called Communities Against Hate that I was like writing for a newsletter for. And we were like, you know, we'd have meetings to like educate people on, who the Nazis were and what they were involved in. So it's like, if we weren't on the streets fighting, we were doing this like political piece or like, but it was my identity by then. Like it took up my whole time. 'Cause I remember in senior year when they're like, what are you gonna go to school for?

What's everybody doing? I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna do with my life. Like, you know, I was like, I'll probably play, like by then I'd started playing guitar and would like jam with some of the friends and stuff. And so shortly after high school, I joined a punk rock band. But so it was like, that was kind of, I was like, oh, well I was in Salem. The Big Skinner Gang was in Portland and I was like, yeah, when I graduate, I'm moving to Portland. I'm going to join the big dogs, maybe be in a punk band.

Well, I mean, who were you living with? Were you living with your mom or your stepdad?

I was living with my grandparents.

So your grandparents?

Yeah.

My grandpa was like a very, very big role model in my life. He fought in World War II. You know, he was that generation of tough guy, but he was such a kind, caring person. He taught me amazing ways, amazing thing about the way to treat women. And he was so good to my grandmother. And, you know, he would sing to her. They would dance at night like he would. Comb his hair before bed, you know, because he's going to bed with his wife. Like, he taught me some amazing, just amazing things. He was just a kind and caring person. But, you know, he was a boxing champion in the Army, and, um, you know, he fought in World War II. And so he was the tough guy too, even though he was— he was a real tough guy because he never acted like a tough guy, right? He would defend himself or his family, I guess, if needed, but it never came to that. But, um, so I just— I mean, I hung on every word he said. Like, I just—

he was—

he was the man I looked up to.

What— I mean, what do your grandparents think when they've got a gang full of skinheads banging on the doors trying to get you to come out?

So that— when that had happened, that was at my mom's, when I was with my mom and stepdad, and it might have been one of the reasons we moved too. Um, didn't happen when I was with my grandparents, but my grandpa knew of what was going on because I remember one time my brother got jumped and my grandpa was like, all right, who are these guys? You know? Um, But I remember more like my grandpa memories are more like the disappointment in me when I'd get in trouble. Like when I got my felony, my adult felony, I was still in high school. It was like the end of my high school year. And I had went out, got in this fight, and then I went to a concert in Portland. And when I came home the next day, he said, hey, the cops were here looking for you. And cops came and they were trying to interview us. And we waited till we got an attorney. And then we ended up going to jail. So now we're on probation, and then while I'm out on probation, I get in another fight and the cops come back by.

And I said, I'm out of here, I'm going to go on the run. Because I thought I was going to, you know, young kid, I thought I'm going to go to prison. And I just remember my grandpa sitting down and just crying and saying, like, when's this going to stop? Like, you can't run from everything. And that, I mean, that's something I've never forgotten.

Wow. What was that fight over? The first one at the concert?

The first? Okay, so this one's a bit of a story, but I had been kidnapped a month before that. And when I say, yeah, so we were out one night trying to buy beer, you know, young kid, or I think we were, yeah, we're 18. And there was this older skinhead dude in town that would buy beer for us if he was around. So we had went to his house. He wasn't there. And one of the guys with me was one of the guys from the Portland gang, like the older guys. We were trying to be cool, impress the older guy. And the kid, there was a guy also going to this dude's house. And we said, hey, man, can you go buy us some beer? And he says, yeah, sure. And he was just, I don't know, we thought he was being sketchy about it and weird. He came back, didn't give us the correct change. And so to us, we were like, he's trying to rip us off. So we beat him up, not to the level of like hospital or anything, but you know, we beat him up pretty good and took his stuff.

And of course he told the guy that lived there because they're friends. And, you know, I'm in this like untouchable mode in my mind, like, you know, we're hot shit. And the guy that lived there had called the mutual friend and said, and said, hey man, I have that money. Oh, you want to come by and pick it up? So him and I went over there and we knock on the door and he's, yeah, come on in. And as soon as we walk in, man, the door shuts behind us. There's about 15 people in there and they pushed up against the wall. One guy's got a gun on me. The other guy had a cue ball and a sock and he's hitting my friend. And because of my affiliation with the gang in Portland, they just kept saying, don't touch him. But if, you know, if I would have done anything, they would have. And I kept denying it, denying it. And my dumbass, they took my wallet And this was back in the days of renting video. So I had a Blockbuster Video card in this kid's name because, you know, I was such a gangster that I was going to go rent movies in his name and never bring them back, you know.

And they go, you don't know him, huh? And they look and they say his name and I just go, fuck, man. And one of my friends was in the car down the street and I was driving my grandpa's car, of course, because I messed up my grandpa's car. I was in my grandpa's car down the street and Some lookouts had come up the stairs and they said, hey, he's got somebody out front. This was all around right at the same time when they pulled my ID. So my friend's in his underwear by now because they're taking his clothes off or they're hitting him. They had my wallet. As the door opened and said that, I thought, here's our chance. So we just started swinging and running out the door. So we're running down the stairs, people are swinging bats at us going up the stairs, and I'm running to the car and I'm yelling at my friend like, start the car, start the car! And right as I get in the car, they shoot at us and they shot the window out of my grandpa's car. And mind you, I'm a senior in high school, man, like, you know, and my buddy that had to get hit with the pool ball, you know, he's all bloody and he's in his underwear.

He's running down the street with his boxers, his wang hanging out. He's all bloody. And a family in a minivan were coming home from church and they opened the door and they told him, just get in. And so they got us out of there. Wow. So there's that piece to it. Another piece is one day after school, there's this kid that she's dating, some girl in my high school. I didn't know who she was, but he started dressing like a skinhead. And of course, that was my territory. So I had to ask him who he was and where he's from. And I didn't like his attitude, so I hit him. And she, she turned it— obviously she had a grudge over it because I was being an asshole. And so she had rounded up some friends, I guess, to try and beat me up. So they started calling me at my grandparents' house. And this was a week after that kidnapping situation. And because the window of my car got shot out, I don't know if they had heard about it or what, but because I didn't know who's calling me, right? They just kept making threats and they said, well, you're going to meet us at the park or we're going to shoot up your house like we shot up your car.

I live with my grandparents. That's the last thing I want to happen. So me and my brother and two other guys, you know, I had a car up there early to see who was going to get there and how many people there were. Because, I mean, you know, these guys that kidnapped— there was a bunch of them. They were older, so I wasn't like super confident in it. So I had some guys that got there early to scout the spot, and then me and my brother showed up. And when I walked up, it was these like nerdy kids from high school. Like, I didn't even pay attention. I knew who they were, but I like— they were never on my radar. And they started trying to act tough and I was still like trying to comprehend, like, look, like, wait, what? And so there was 4 of them and it was just me and my brother at the time. And so I was carrying a pistol, so I took my pistol out and I handed it— oh, there was a third friend there because I took my pistol and handed it to the third guy because I'm like, I'm not going to use it.

And I didn't want to fall out when I'm fighting. And I just— we just start hitting these dudes. And one of them I'd hit with a bottle. I felt there was like a Henry Weinhard's orange cream soda. Always remember it because it was an empty one sitting there on the ground and I had picked it up and hit this kid with it. Well, they had the girl that had called and started all this. She was at Top already on the phone with the cops. So as we're fighting, once they started losing, she calls, um, and we hear sirens and we take off. And this is embarrassing, but it'll date me, but my, I had dropped my pager on the run out of there. So. They're in the minivan getting ready to leave and they get stopped by the cops. But the cops didn't have enough information yet what was going on. They let them leave. I'm on foot, so I'm like, I had to run all through neighborhoods, all this stuff once I got my pager. But of course they grabbed the bottle, they fingerprint the bottle. So I don't know any of this. I'm going to Portland, I'm going to a concert, telling all the old guys, older guys how cool we are.

We just beat these guys up, you know, and then come home to the cops at our house. Shit. And so at the time, Oregon had just implemented what they called Measure 11, which was mandatory minimum sentencing, like the Tough on Violent Crime Act. And so my charge was assault in the second degree, assault with a weapon. So if it would have been— if I took it to trial and got found guilty, it's a minimum of 5 years, 10 months, no matter previous record, no matter the fact that I just turned 18. And I was guilty of it, right? Like there were circumstances and there was 4 of them and 3 of us or whatever. But still, I was guilty of it. So I took a plea bargain of assault in the third degree. And I— so we did, I think, 2 or 3 weeks in jail when we first got arrested. Then I had to go back over Christmas break, spent my whole Christmas break in jail. And then I had to go back and do a month after everyone was going on their senior vacations and graduating. I had to go to county jail, spend a month there.

And then I did 5 years of probation off of that.

Holy shit. So how many times have you been to jail before you were 18?

That was those 2.

2?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But going— here's the other thing too, is being 18 years old, only knowing of the jail prison system from either visiting my dad in prison or just popular culture, TV and stuff. And in my mind, these were all the racist skinheads are in there. And I'm this 124-pound anti-racist kid. So I was scared to death of jail when I first went in there. The first couple days weren't bad at all. Well, it wasn't— none of it was that bad once I got there. But the first couple days they had me and my twin brother in the same cell and I was like, well, hell yeah, it's like a sleepover. This can't be bad, you know? And, uh, I'll remember cuz he had— they gave us slippers and his slipper had a hole hole in it, so whenever he stepped, it goes— so I was always making fun of him for it. And, uh, one night they came in, the guards came into our cell and split us up because they said, well, if your parents or someone's gonna bail one of you out, we don't know if you guys are gonna swap ID cards.

Like, get the hell out of here. Like, well, you go ahead, bro. But so they split us up, and they're like rushing me, and he's like, hey, here, here's your stuff. And I put my slippers on, and I step out the door, and I hear— and he's just laughing in the cell. He gave me his his holy slippers on my way out.

Holy shit. Wow.

Or there was a, there was a time where someone had stole a razor, a razor blade. And so they were doing cell searches and person searches. So they called you out of your cell one at a time and you had to walk across the whole tier and then go out and get frisked and then come back. So I'm coming back from the tier and it's quiet and I hear someone go, they checked his ass, he's walking funny. And I'm like, what? I look over and it's my brother. Holy shit.

Wow.

So you and your brother were—

I mean, even after they split you guys up into different towns, you're still running the same gang, doing all the same stuff?

Pretty much. So when I got into that skinhead stuff, he listened to the music, but he was— went to this country school. He thought he was gonna be a roper. He was in the Cowboys, and he practiced roping in the backyard, and he had a cool belt buckle with a spur on it that spun around when he flicked it. You know, he was really cool. Um, but those Nazi dudes that were always looking for me didn't know how to twin, and they jammed him up at like a Circle K. And, uh, I think kind of from then he'd realize he's going to be assumed it's him, you know.

I—

it just— he became his beef too. And then so he was like, well, might as well join too. So then he got kind of into it, and then we started doing stuff together.

So when did you— when did you guys head to Portland?

Right after high school. Right after I got out of jail in high school, I moved to Portland. And part of it was good for me in the fact of probation. So when I'm on probation in Salem, which is a smaller town, it was very strict probation. When I went to Portland, I'm on gang probation, but I'm a skinny white kid and the gang probation is in the northeast part of Portland. And my PO, this bigger black guy, and he's like, what'd you go to jail for? He's reading, he's like, beating up Nazis. Yeah, man, just don't get in trouble. You'll be good. You know, I mean, they, they would visit me at work or, you know, to do urine samples and stuff, but I never really did drugs back then. I didn't really drink. So it was like it was all fine for me.

And you knew what gang you guys wanted to join?

Yeah, yeah.

There was a gang there called the Rose City Barver Boys, um, which I have Rose City on my knuckles and on my arm. And they had started in 1995, right in the early eras of Portland. Like, it was the same thing as Salem. There was a lot of neo-Nazi skinhead gangs there. And they had— it would reach national news when the neo-Nazi group there, Eastside White Pride, which became Volksfront, had killed an Ethiopian immigrant, Mulgeta Serra. Beat him to death with baseball bats. And so there was a big trial. The family of the deceased had sued Tom Metzger and White Aryan Resistance. So there was this big political trial going on, you know, and so it was all over the media and stuff like that. So there was like 3 or 4 anti-racist skinhead gangs there and kind of the main ones from each one decided, well, let's just have one. And they kind of either beat up or ran off the guys that weren't down and they conformed together and they started Rose City. So by the time, I was coming around, they were the only, the only like antiracist skinhead gang in Portland.

Um, so any punk rock show I went to, they were there, you know. And you go all the different concerts that they were there because they were showing up to make sure Nazis weren't there. Plus we all like the same music. So for me, I'm 18, these guys are probably 22, 23. So, but to me they were the older guys, you know. Um, so when I moved up there, that, that was like my first thing is I moved in with one of them and I was like, I want to be a part of this.

Were they pretty accepting?

No. So they were the type of gang that, so, and I say gang in this extent too, other than we weren't, there was no monetary value. We weren't like hustling drugs or anything, but they were very territorial. So even if you were an anti-racist skinhead, if you came to a concert or to their, who you, who are you, where you from? And you'd probably get beat up. And if you came back, may you get beat up again, maybe not. But then if you kept, then you kind of had like earn your way in by seeing that you're not a pussy. Cuz it was, it sounds crazy, but it was a very violent time, dude. And it, so it's like, If everyone's going to be around, we want to make sure that you're not going to run off or you're not soft. So there was a lot of challenges in proving yourself coming up through that.

Would they instigate things or they would just— they would— I mean, they would beat you up, but would they— would there be an initiation?

Yeah, yeah. There was a jump-in. I had to get jumped in like a traditional— like they just beat your ass.

And what's a jump-in?

So where everyone in the gang surrounds you and you're supposed to fight and they fight you. And they're like, I see stuff on TV where like, oh, you only punch in stomach, or it's only 10 seconds.

But ours wasn't.

Ours was till somebody called it. And if you hit the ground, they're calling you a pussy. And I'm like, dude, I'm getting hit by 12 tough guys. What do you mean? Um, when I got jumped in, so there was the one of the dudes that was kind of like the shot caller for the crew. I think early on, once he, once, you know, I got comfortable and kind of started coming around more, I've always been like vocal about my opinion and always been good at kind of drawing people in and always really rise to leadership positions. And I think there was this weird tension between him or he had some insecurities about me, I think. And so he had made it. My brother was already in and my friend Zach, who moved up there with me, was already in before they jumped me. I had to wait like 2 extra years or something.

2 extra years?

Yeah, it was a year or 2 extra that they were all— I mean, I got to hang out, party with everyone, but I wasn't a member, so I couldn't go to the meetings and couldn't claim to be a member, you know.

Um, and you think it was an insecurity?

Yeah, absolutely. Especially after, like, when I joined and stuff too, because he had given me some talks, and it was like, you know, he, he had— I had brought, like, a lot of the younger guys up with me. And then as I was in, I was a very active dude, you know. I'm outspoken, I'm pretty sociable, so I was bringing people around. And so I think he kind of was seeing that, that sphere of influence was changing.

What I mean, what are you and your brother saying about this? You guys seem— well, so tight as it gets.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you're not—

couple of years later, you're still not in.

Yeah.

So him and I fought twice physically over it when he was drinking and stuff because he would be like, that's why you're not in or whatever. And I'll also say part of it was eat my ego. They said I wasn't ready to be in. Cockiness, you know, I mean, it wasn't all his fault. But yeah, I think it was a year after my brother got jumped in, then I got jumped in. That dude I'm talking about, the leader guy, we had been at a concert one night and this dude was saying a bunch of racist stuff and was grabbing on some girls. We beat him up. Well, apparently he was friends with this leader guy and he told them that we were saying racist, you know, some dumb like to get support. And it was this guy's chance to finally beat me up, right? Like, now he had a reason. So my band was playing a concert and he had been driving around telling all the guys when he saw me, he was going to break my jaw. And he's a big dude. He's a very tough fighter. And I'm sitting at the bar next door to where my band's playing.

I was 20 years old, maybe. So, you know, probably shouldn't— yeah, because I had a fake ID. So I'm sitting in the bar and he comes walking in and I just remember my stomach dropping.

I was like, damn, this is the leader.

Yeah, yeah, you're a leader. Yep. So he walks in and he goes, hey man, you got to go for a walk, which I know what that means. It means we're gonna go fight. So we go into this alley and he starts fighting me, and I didn't fight back because I was like, A, I'm sure he can win. B, whether I could or not, I didn't want to like make things worse, or like he already kind of had this fragile ego state, and then I don't know, I just didn't want to make things worse, and I just wanted to be over as quick as possible. And I remember he was slamming my head against this brick wall and I put my hand up and it broke my thumb. That's why my thumb's all nasty looking. My— the bone was sticking out of my thumb, and I had to play a concert that night. So it's like I had it all taped up, and I remember when I was strumming the guitar, every now and again the strings would get up underneath it. Oh, it was gnarly too. Gnarly. But so my point is, when I got jumped in was 2 weeks after that.

So I'm in a cast, still have black eyes from him beating me up, and then I was supposed to fight 12 guys. So that didn't go well.

Did you ever make amends with this guy?

Yeah, actually, within the last few years we've gotten—

within the last few years?

Well, yeah, he called and apologized about 4 years ago. I mean, he was always shit because I was in— I left that world when I was 25, so it was only— I was only in for about 5 years. He has stayed in it, right? So there was those years where we're like, we had to coexist, but we didn't always get along. And then when I left, he was trying to rally everyone to jump me out. And, you know, which didn't happen.

What does that mean?

So you're in the gang, you're out. So if you want to leave, you have to get jumped out just like you get jumped in. And I didn't.

And the reason they want—

he wanted to jump me out is he said, like, once you're in, you're not allowed to be in any other gangs. And I joined a motorcycle club. Now, now, obviously, they acknowledge that that's not a gang. It wasn't the same thing. But at the time, it was just him using his influence, trying to get me beat up, I guess. And so years later, you know, he had reached out and we had a pretty deep talk. And then now we stay in touch and talk pretty often.

Wow.

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I think we were just talking about getting jumped getting jumped out?

Yeah, so I was in for about 5 years, and what was cool about that time too is I was in the band then too. So like I said, I'd played some music with people in high school. We'd meet up after school to go to this guy's house, you know, I play guitar, and we never like did shows or anything in high school. My, my— or right when I moved to Portland, my first job was at the Hot Topic, that store in the mall. I know, that's embarrassing. But there was a guy that moved there from Connecticut that was in this other smaller punk rock band, and he was trying to get a band together. And so the assistant manager at Hot Topic, her boyfriend played bass. So I was like, well, I play guitar and he sings. So we just kind of put this band together because at first it was still the guys I was playing with in high school. And then my friend from Zach that I met at Hot Topic, I'd have him come and kind of jam with us. But he was, it was like more kind of Misfits sound. And he was like, why are we singing about vampires and shit?

So he wanted to do more like a street punk thing. And so we kind of built this band. And at first, well, I feel like everything I do, I go like all in. So when we were doing the band, like, next thing you know, we're touring several months. That, like, we, for 4 of those 5 years, we took— we were on the road for a month, home for a month, or on the road for 2 months.

Hold on, hold on, you were, you were touring?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Were that good?

You were good.

We put out 3— we had, back then you had to be on a record label if you wanted your music out there, right, for distribution and all that stuff. So we, we had 3— we had an EP come out Then we did a full length on a bigger label. And then the last one was another EP on a bigger, like bigger for punk rock. They weren't like—

What was the name of the band?

The Escaped. I think the biggest thing we did was we were on the guy from Rancid's record label, Give 'Em the Boot. There was like a compilation called Give 'Em the Boot on Hellcat Records and we were on that. So that was like the most mainstream we got. But we played like some Warped Tour dates. We played CBGBs in New York City. We played Gilman Street.

Holy shit. You guys were playing the Warped Tour?

Yeah, yeah. We did a couple of Warped Tour dates, Cleveland, Ohio, and then Oregon.

And then, you know, like famous CBGBs in Portland where the Ramones and everybody played. And then Gilman Street, which is where like Rancid and Green Day and those bands first played. So we got to play a lot of those venues. We can meet all these guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm still friends with like, so like Dropkick Murphys or like some of those bands.

Are you serious?

Yeah, man.

Yeah. Al Barr, the singer, and Ken Casey, the bass player, are really good friends of mine.

Who's your favorite punk rock bands?

Oh man, that's going to be probably The Clash. It's always been, I think, as far as like authentic old school punk rock, The Clash. I recently saw The Misfits when they got back together and I just had a nostalgia. It was cool, you know. Right on. And then more like mainstream stuff, probably Rancid because they sound like The Clash.

Wow.

So I mean, damn, dude. Quite the, quite the experience by the time you're what, 20?

Yeah, 25, 25, I think was around the time I left. 24, 25 when we broke up. We stopped playing in 2005. And then we did a reunion show in 2015, and that was it. That was the last time I played guitar.

That's the last time you played guitar? Yeah.

And I would— in between, I never really played guitar either, because like at the time I played it all through high school, and then I was in this band for 5 years, but I just played power chords. It was punk rock. I'm not a good guitar player. Just jumped around a lot, played power chords. And so like once I wasn't playing it to like play music, I wasn't that guy that would sit in the room and play guitar or play along to the radio and So I just lost interest in it.

What's it like? I mean, as a young man going out into a Warped Tour, I mean, that's— how many people are there?

It was crazy. So Warped Tour wasn't one of our bigger shows because there's so many other bands playing at the same time. So like Lars Fredriksen from Rancid, he was in a side project called Lars and the Bastards, and they had played right before we did, and they were telling everyone, hey, go see The Escaped. But I want to say like AFI or some other big band was playing at the same time of us. So, you know, that It wasn't our— it wasn't our biggest crowd.

Gotcha.

But, um, you know, the crazy thing I remember about tour that is funny looking back on now is this was pre— pretty pre-internet and definitely pre-navigation. So like when I was booking our tours, there was a book called Book Your Own Life, and it was just—

you were managing it?

Yeah, I wrote the songs and booked the tours and everything. And so there was this book called Book Your Own Life where it's like, look up Cleveland and say, okay, here's the venues you could play, here's the maybe houses you could stay at, and here's the promoters, and had everyone's like, you know, phone number and address. And this was in that era, email was just starting. So really you'd make a press kit and I'd mail out packages and I'd mail out demo CDs and record labels. And so I booked this, our very first US tour. I was 20. We booked this whole US, I booked this whole US tour off of this book. And it was a trip. And then now we're navigating the country. We're going to AAA to get road maps, you know? I mean, this is, not to date myself, but I remember we had a cardboard box between the driver and passenger seat full of cassette tapes, mixtapes. And then I'd have a pocket full of quarters in case you get lost, you got to go use a payphone. And then I remember MapQuest was kind of starting to come out, so then we could build at least an idea of where we're going.

But if you got off route, you still had to have a map. It was just crazy for me to think of a bunch of kids in their early 20s navigating the country with no navigation, no cell phones.

Yeah.

Different world, man. Yeah, we must be about the same age.

I mean, were you—

were you drinking, drugging, partying?

No, not really. So, like, what were your grades like? When I applied myself, they were decent. But around high school, high school, I was getting like B's and C's. I mean, I graduated, but I wasn't like— and when I went back to college years later, I was on a roll and I've been in honor society and all that stuff.

I might just put all your potential into the gangs and punk rock. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, it's pretty fucking impressive. I mean, organized an entire gang, got into another one, managing and playing and promoting the band. I mean, that's a lot of shit.

Yeah, I stay active. I like to stay active.

Damn, dude.

I think I've been really blessed with networking. Like, I've been very good at meeting people and maintaining relationships. Like I said, a lot of those bands we played with, I'm still friends with. I was just in Austin, Texas last week. And got to see some friends I haven't seen in 20 years. So on our first US tour, our drummer was a mechanic. He's like, this van's going to be great. It's going to make it.

It'll be golden.

And we had issues all along the West Coast. In fact, our van broke down right outside of Compton. And you know, this is like, like I said, we're 20 years old and skinheads and punk rockers, guys with mohawks and stuff. And the California, I don't know if they still do. I'm sure they probably do. But if you break down on the interstate, they just tow you off the interstate. So they drop us off in Compton. To find a car battery at dark so we could get to this venue. And so we were just, something I'll always remember 'cause it was crazy. And then, you know, everything worked out. We got to the venue, but we were just outside of Austin, Texas and the van broke down. And when we were out of the van trying to figure out what was going on with it, the carburetor caught fire and then the van burned to the ground. Like, and so we had to call the bands we were supposed to be playing with. We called, say, we're not gonna make it. Well, that morning they came and picked us up all the equipment that we could, that we had salvaged and gotten out of it.

And most of our— I mean, we were able to get most of the stuff out of it because, you know, it started at the front and worked its way back, so we could get most of the stuff out. But we ended up staying in Austin, Texas for— I was there for 2 months because we would play shows and then we had enough money, we'd send one guy home on a Greyhound, then we'd have some other local band guy fill in, and then we send the next guy on the Greyhound. Um, and so, you know, I made some great friends there. And so when I was back there last week, I got to hang out with all those guys and catch up and It was really, really cool.

That's awesome, man.

Wow.

Wow. So were you in a gang and the punk rock band at the same time, or was it one of them?

Yeah, no, I was. And it was, it was one of those things where like each, especially in the skinhead scene, but also in like the hardcore punk rock, the hardcore music scene, a lot of the bigger cities had their own crews or gangs. And so it was actually for me a good networking piece because I met, you know, a lot of dudes from these other crews and kind of was just this network, get to know each other. So they'd come to our shows, we go to their shows. And it was cool. I mean, I met a ton of people that way, so it was cool. And years later when I got into club life, some of those dudes did too. And so there was like these connections I had with other national clubs because I knew this guy from the hardcore scene or the punk rock scene.

Why did you want—

why did you want jumped out of that gang?

What was the name of that gang again?

The Rose City Bomber Boys.

Yeah.

Yeah. So towards the end for me, I was dating this girl for the last 5 years, pretty much the whole time I was in the band. And she was— she had won some thing where she was like trying to be a VJ for Fuse TV. It's like some contest. So she was in New York City for the finalist, and she said, hey, where should I go? What bar should I go to? And I said, hey, there's this— I won't say the name, but I was like, hey, there's this really cool bar down there. All the bands hang out there. So she went down there, and one of my favorite bands was there at the time. And she went up, she's talking to the singer, and he was wearing the shirt for this promotional company that I really liked, and he'd taken it off and gave it to her. And of course, the end of the night, they end up hooking up. And I don't, I don't hear this for months, and stories vary on whatever. But either way, someone, my brother had called me and said, hey, you know, there's this thing on the internet because this competition, like, you had to vote for who you wanted to win.

And these people are like, well, at least I wasn't like Kristen and slept with so-and-so. And, um, these— I knew we didn't like— we played Warped Tour together and we maybe met a few times. We weren't like friends, but we knew of each other.. And like I said at the beginning, he, he knew me enough to go, hey, here's this t-shirt. And so there was some ego involved for sure. But the biggest piece was I want to know, like, she was that first thing that happened. So I was reaching out to this guy and he wouldn't hit me back. He wouldn't answer. So I started reaching out to mutual friends and my thing was I just wanted man to man talk to me. Did it happen?

Why?

You know, whatever. And, um, he's involved in a pretty big gang out of their crew out of New York. And so I don't— she probably would just thought he could cool guy me or tough guy me, I don't know. But he was married at the time. I don't know if he still is or not, but some of my mutual friends had called and said, hey, I was like, hey, I just want this guy to get a hold of me. And they said, yeah, you need to stop hitting people up or you're going to get hurt. And I was like, well, so now I'm getting threatened after all this happened. So I said, well, hey, if he doesn't call me before he plays in Portland, it's not going to go good for him. And, uh, never heard from him. So I had some— me and some scouts watched them in Boise, Idaho. We watched them in Seattle, and when they came to Portland, we jumped them and beat the band up. And, uh, they're a bigger band and they were a bigger crew. So all these other skinhead crews on the West Coast that initially were cool with it, and people are picking sides, and there's this drama.

And his brother was in an even larger band, and they were going to come back to play Portland. So his brother reaches out to our gang and he says, hey, this issue seems between my brother and his brother. So why don't me and then my brother Jeremy— so why doesn't him and Jeremy meet, try and squash this? And when we had planned, when we jumped him, you know, we had planned it like a full military. I mean, we had our spotters over here and the shooters in the back and cars down here, like, because we— this was a very reputable crew and we weren't sure what to expect.

Hold on. Go ahead, finish.

I want to ask you afterwards, you know, what all goes into—

what planning goes into when you're going to jump somebody.

Okay.

But you talk about spotters, shooters, all kinds of shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It sounds pretty intricate.

Well, and I could lean into that because so when they were— when we were— I had people watch them in Boise because I wanted to get a head count on who they had with them, how many they had on the road. You know, who had security? Did they have security with them? Where do they post up when they're leaving? Do they park in the back when they load their— you know, I wanted to get all the information. And because we watched Boise, I did the same thing in Seattle. And then we kind of lost them in Seattle because I was trying to have them tailed. And there's only one, you know, Interstate 5 goes from Seattle to Portland. So my brother was on the side of the road with his Harley and pretending like it was broken down until they came by, and then he just got in behind them and called us. So then we knew where to expect them, which way they were going. But because they were, like I said, to us, we thought they were reputable guys that we didn't know if they had guns on them. We didn't know, you know, they were on tour to other bands.

So they had a good amount of people. So we had people there all day, super early to see if other, you know, who they had coming down there. We did have guys that were stationed to just stand in the back with firearms in case they pulled firearms. Otherwise they don't get involved. We had spotters up in the high area, which next door was the parking garage, to see who was coming and going, if law enforcement was, you know, because you can see the ins and outs. And then we had— we all came down. So we went there the day before and dropped vehicles in to leave, and then we came in at different vehicles so we could separate and go somewhere else. Um, so I mean, we planned it pretty well, you know, and then it went off without a hitch. Got out of there before law enforcement. And so then they're— they want to schedule this meeting to make up with us. And I wasn't allowed to go anywhere in the area because they figured my presence there would just make it worse. And I don't know if it was leadership on my end for not impressing the importance enough, or it was just people comfortable or cocky.

But we didn't do any of that the second time. We took the guy at his word that this was going to be a meeting. So there was like 3 or 4 guys with my brother. But my brother walked— they said, okay, here's— they got the call. He walks up, and as he's walking up, there's these 3 guys that come up to him, 2 of which were friends of ours. One had stayed at my house, um, and they were both in bigger bands. And just as a caveat, one of them became a Hells Angel later, but not important until later. But anyway, so the 3 of them there, and they end up jumping my brother, and they beat him with a club, or he said it was a table leg, or— but he was beaten so bad that he almost— he was in ICU for 2 weeks. His jawbone had broken, went into his ear canal, destroyed his eardrums, equilibrium. He has interstem brain damage, like had to learn how to walk again. His ear fell off like it was in his fucking hand. Holy shit. So he— I couldn't get a hold of anyone for like the check-in to see how it went.

And all of a sudden he calls me and I'm like, where are you at? And he's like, they got me, they got me. And I was like, who got you? And, you know, he's just had all this brain damage, doesn't know what's going on. And he said, I'm in a bush. And I was like, where? And I was like trying to— and he had, he had walked up to a clothing store, the Buffalo Exchange, and they just saw him covered in blood and they locked the door. So by the time I get down there, there's ambulance. He was already in the ambulance. Um, they had brought a busload of people up from different crews, from down from Seattle and up from LA and Sacramento. So they had probably 30 dudes with them. So the other guys were getting— they were fighting too, but no one got it like my brother because he got singled out and jumped, you know. So, you know, now I'm dealing with my— I'd already lost a little brother, right? Now my twin brother is in the hospital with a brain bleed. Family's freaking out, you know, and, uh, things got real serious.

And it got to the point where he finally got out of the hospital, but he, you know, his PTSD was bad. He was— because of the, the inner stem, or because of the equilibrium, he had spins all, you know, he couldn't get comfortable. He was sick. Um, and he— we had like— he had this walker that had like tennis balls on it, but if it wasn't even, he would go like this. And keep in mind, now he's deaf and he's getting used to being deaf. And because everything's spinning, he'd stare at the floor, but you were supposed to take him out to practice walking. So I'd take him to like the store, you know, Fred Meyer or something, and he'd be doing this. And if it was crooked, he'd like start doing this and go off to the left. So I would fuck with his walker. So he'd walk crooked. Holy shit. But he couldn't hear you or anything. Cause you know, he's staring at the ground. So that's what's spinning. He couldn't hear, but it got to the point where one time, so then we have a meeting with the gang and, and, um, So there was that guy that I talked about before, the leader guy, and then another dude I looked up to in the crew.

And they brought in this pillowcase and they empty out some, you know, dump out some pistols out of it. And they said, hey, you know, we need to have revenge. Like, we gotta, we gotta rectify this. This is for the name of the crew. This is for retribution. And they said, so we gotta go— that we knew where a couple of those dudes, the city they lived in— they go, we gotta go down there and take care of these guys. And I said, they said, you guys take the bus down there, take these. And it was me and Little Zach So the guy I went to high school with, wrestling team, then he was in the first crew with me. He joined. And so he ended up being among with me for a while too. So he kind of done everything with me. And so it's just me and little Zach and, and we go, okay, well, when do we leave? And this guy says, no, no, we're not going. You guys got to go. And I said, I mean, I feel like it's pretty obvious if something happens to these guys, we're going to go to prison.

He's like, hey, if that's what we got to do for the reputation of the crew. And, you know, I was still pretty locked in. So I was like, I guess that's what we're doing. And I go home and I tell my brother and he lost his mind. He's like, why the fuck would you do that? He's like, first, first I get jumped to take me, and then you guys are gonna go to prison? And he's like, for what? Like, how's that gonna help the gang? And so that— the tension of that, and then things, you know, retribution not happening, and also the fact that my presence in that gang was the issue at this point, right? My band couldn't tour anymore because of these guys were like more of a national gang on a bigger level. They were a bigger band, so like, uh, The guys from Rancid were— one of them's in that gang, so they dropped us, kicked us off the label. Like, there was all the guys that were my mutual friends I was trying to reach out to, it was all— everything was done after that. Everything got cut off.

Shit.

And so, um, around this time, right before he got jumped, we grew up riding Vespas, like, from the skinhead scene. So we had like a, you know, a little two-stroke, three or four-speed Vespas. We were cruising, we thought we were cool as fuck on them, and, uh one of the— one of our buddies, an older skinhead dude, he owned a tattoo shop that I'd worked at. He was started right— he went from Vespas to Harleys, and he let me ride his Harley, and I was like, game over, dude. You know, just the torque, the power, everything. So my twin brother went to the Harley dealership and financed us both Sportsters, or co-signed on my Sportster, and within about 2 months we traded them in for big twins. And as soon as we had bikes, you know, we were still doing the crew stuff, but he, he couldn't ride after getting jumped. Or he wasn't supposed to. He couldn't even walk, he was so dizzy. And I remember being at work one day and him calling me saying I need to come pick him up. I go, where are you? And he tried to ride to a friend's house and he got there, but he's like, no way in hell am I riding back right now.

And so I started hanging out, more interested in hanging out with the guys. Little Zach had bought a Harley. So now there's a group of 3 or 4 of us riding around. And anything I've done, whether it was a skinhead gang or the band, I was like, if I'm going to do it, I want to do the best of it. So I already was like, cool, motorcycle club, you know. And, uh, and so that was kind of my transition where I was started, you know, kind of put one thing behind me, moved on to the next.

When did you get your first tattoo?

I was 16.

What was it?

Uh, I had the laurel wreath, like the Fred Perry logo, on my chest. It's covered up now. But I had it. My dude did it in the backyard with a guitar string, homemade, like prison-style tattoo machine. And then at 17, like me, Jeremy, Lil Zack, the guys from our old crew got this Brothers Till the End tattoo. It's like a straight razor. I have stuff behind it now. But and then when I turned 18, I just started getting professional ones. Thankfully.

Do you have a favorite?

No, I don't think so, man.

Do you have a couple favorites?

I mean, I've got a lot of memorial tattoos. Those probably mean the most to me. Um, but no, I don't know if I have any actual favorite. I like them all.

Right on, right on. What's this one?

Um, Illinois, IL. So when we were, uh, I don't know if it's gonna get me in shit or not, but when we, when we started going at it with another club, just say that, another club in Illinois, uh, they said we couldn't be there and they were going to come take our rockers from us and they weren't going to have stuff that said Illinois. So I tattooed it face.

That's a statement.

Yeah.

How'd that work out?

Still got it.

Still here, huh?

Yeah.

Right on. So your interest in motorcycle gangs, that was it, riding a Harley?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So there was a club in town called the Outsiders, which was like, they'd been there since the '60s. They had a chapter in Portland and Tacoma. So very old school, like chopper club. Even around the time I joined, most of them didn't even have newer Harleys. They all had custom choppers. And if you rode a Sportster, you had to park across the street. That was one of the reasons we traded them in pretty quick. But one of the guys had a Dyna and they would call him store-bought Scott because he didn't have a chopper. You know, like that was before everyone was riding baggers and like it is now, you know. So they were super old school. And I didn't know, you know, I read all these books about it, just like it was skinhead and everything else. But I didn't, you know, I didn't know that, like, being in it, I didn't know the culture. And so to me, these guys might as well have been Hells Angels, right? Like, to me, I'm like, these are some outlaw bikers, you know, they're old school. They were that long-haired biker look, you know. So I was super enamored.

So I was like spending as much time with them as I could. I was going on rides and stuff with them and hanging out at the clubhouse and Ended up prospecting for them for, I think, 2 months. But there was this moment where I kind of looked past the shininess of it, and I looked around the room and I was like, and this is a great club and great guys, but I was like, I don't have anything in common with any of these guys. They're listening to old classic rock. They're like 50, 60 years old. I'm 24, 25. Outside of riding motorcycles, these aren't guys that I'd like go to the movies with or take to the homies barbecue. And, and I remember just that I was, I was really thinking that and like even questioning like club life, if that what it's like, you know, I loved the structure of it, the militant aspect, the protocol, you know, having the officers and everyone has a role. And, you know, and obviously when you're riding in a pack, just the feeling of that was incredible. Um, so there's a lot of aspects I like to it, but there was just this lingering piece where I was like, I don't know if I fit in here.

And I was the young guy trying to impress everybody and prove myself, you know. So I was trying to show that I'm tough and I could fight, and the two opportunities I had failed miserably. There was a, uh, I was at a bar with one of the members and some dude that was, you know, some local MMA guy I thought was drunk and wanted to pick a fight, you know, and He's like, you guys think you're tough because you ride Harleys and, you know, is trying to pick a fight. He's like, I do this for a living. And typical drunk bar stuff, you know. And so him and the member of the Outsiders start fighting and I'm like, here's my chance. Oh yeah, I'm going to impress this dude. I don't pay attention to anything. I don't do anything I'd normally do about who's he with, where are they standing. I walk right past his friends and hit him. And next thing I'm looking at my feet as I'm flying through the air. So I go back to the clubhouse. They nicknamed me Chuck for a while because I got chucked across the room. I said, well, that's not the reputation I want.

And then as I was prospecting there, I was out. And so a lot of prospects do the security, following around the members, paying attention to what's going on. So normally you're not sitting down, you're not drinking. So I'm kind of posted up and this guy kept calling me prospect, but he wasn't in the club. And I'm still learning the rules and protocol. And I knew he wasn't in the club I was prospecting for, but I didn't know if he was like in another club that they're friends with. Like I was, because I couldn't figure out why he was being so blatant. And he just kind of kept poking at me. And I had gone outside and one of the outsiders told me to go back inside. I don't know, I was grabbing him a drink or something. I was going back in and this guy stood in the doorway and he wouldn't let me pass. And I said, you know, get out of the way, dude. And he's like, so move me.

So I hit him.

We kind of fought a little bit. And there was an older member there that was visiting from Tacoma from the outsiders. So it was just me and him. And the dude didn't know how to fight. So it didn't take— he kind of like doubled over and I uppercut him and he dropped. And when he hit the ground, my sponsor, so the one that had like brought me in, he comes running out and he starts kicking the guy. And, uh, it gets broken up and we go back to the clubhouse and I'm thinking they're gonna say, yeah, Justin knocked this dude out, you know, it was so cool. Well, the old-timer I was with goes, yeah, he was messing with the prospect, so I knocked him out. And I was like, I can't challenge his opinion, I'm a prospect, he's a member. So I just was like, cool, that was my shot, man. Oh shit. So yeah, and, and, um, Right around that time. So that was when this stuff was going on with me and my ex, Kristen. We had broken up. I was, I was managing a porn store at the time.

A porn store?

Yeah, one of the members owned a porn store. And so I'd like— it was a good job for me on tour because I could leave for 2 months, come back for a month, you know, those types of things. And I worked day shift. I was manager, so I did like the ordering and the hiring. And but by now I'm 24 years old and I was trying to figure out, you know, what I wanted to do. So, because I left the band, I'm leaving the club or the, the Skinhead gang. And, um, when I was a senior in high school, right before I got my felony, me and my best friend at the time did delayed entry for the Marine Corps. Well, I got the felony, so I couldn't go in. So around 24-ish, let's see, I, I, they had relaxed the felony rule for certain branches, and the National Guard was— I tried every branch, they wouldn't take me— in the National Guard, so they could take me. So I started lasering off some tattoos on my neck. But then like the day before MEPS, they said, hey, we couldn't get the waiver. So then I— so that was initially, that was my goal, right?

I'm gonna go in the military. But no, no branch would take me.

Why did you want to go in the military?

I think for structure, for some sort of semblance of something to do. Like, I, you know, it was like I, I just left the gang and I was looking for some sort of direction, and I thought that might be it. And I mean, I wasn't really interested in So in high school, when I was getting in trouble, my grandpa had called a Navy recruiter. My grandpa was in the Army, but for some reason he called a Navy recruiter. And I got home from school, he goes, hey, this guy wants to talk to you. And they were trying to get me to join the Navy. So it's like my uncle was in the Army, my grandpa was in the Army. And so it was like, you know, I was like, okay, it's an option. And then when my best friend said he wanted to join the Marines, I was like, hell yeah, that'd be cool. Let's do that. But he got in and I didn't. And then when I was trying to do the National Guard, when the band broke up, 3 of my friends joined. Like, we were all going to, you know, I was talking these guys into doing it too.

They're all still in and I didn't get in. And so my cousin lived in Nevada or outside of Carson City in Reno, and her husband worked for this gas company and they were hiring people like to teach how to work on gas meters. And then his buddy was also said that he could help me get into the electrical union. So I'm thinking, okay, here's an opportunity to go do one of these two things, maybe have more of a career. So I left the Outsiders and I moved to Carson City, Nevada. I had— and I didn't really have much. I think I mailed a box of UPS clothes to my cousin's house and I got on the Harley and I rode down there and went to work for the gas company and it was all well and good. But I was still reading about motorcycle clubs. There was a lot down there. I was wanting to hang out with motorcycle clubs and I started hanging out with clubs there. And there was a local club called the Booze Fighters. That they were going to this thing called the Confederation of Clubs. So heard of the, the Moose Fighters?

Yeah, yeah, I have some.

They've been around since like the '40s. Robert Patrick's a member. Like, there's like a lot of— like, they're a very big national club, and— but they're not like a 1% outlaw club. So there are a lot of great guys in that club. So I was hanging out, I hung out with them a little bit, and they were going to this thing called the Confederation of Clubs, which each state essentially has And that's where all the clubs in that region meet up and talk about legislation or politics, you know, helmet laws and stuff like that. So I know I'd see all the other clubs there, so I go up there with them. And at the time, you know, I'm not in a club, so it was like I was a fashion biker, you know, had a leather jacket with a denim vest over it.

And there was a club there called the Vagos that I don't—

maybe seen on the internet. This was like early bikers just started having websites and stuff. And, uh, there was— first time I ever met a Hells Angel. Like, all these clubs are there. And, uh, I'm standing outside of this meeting just meeting people, you know. And I remember these vagos kept looking at me because I'm wearing a jean— a denim vest, and that's what they wear with their patch on it. And I'm thinking, man, I hope they don't think I'm trying to be one of them or something. I didn't even know them. But there was a lot of younger ones, and I was thinking, well, that's kind of cool, you know. These guys have a little different look, and a lot of them were into punk rock and skateboarding, I found out later. And. But this meeting ends and I was hanging, I stayed a little bit longer to try and meet some more people. And the Booze Fighters said, uh, hey, meet up with us after. And it was one of those like, you know, go 3 blocks this way, take a right, go here in this street and you'll see us all. So I'm trying to navigate this on my own, you know, driving around town and I see a bar with a bunch of green out front.

So I assume it's the Booze Fighters. And as I pull in, I pull in past 2 prospects, like I kinda had it blocked. And as soon as I pull in, I realize, fuck, this is Vagabar. But I'm already here. So I back my bike up to the curb and I put my kickstand down and I'm just kind of reading the room. Look, I mean, you know, the outside, I'm looking around like, how many they have, where they at? And man, there's probably 30 of them. Everyone's looking at me and now I'm looking like I'm dressed like them, you know? I was like, well, this can't be good. So I didn't want to look like a pussy, so I said, fuck it. And I walked into the bar and I wasn't drinking at the time, but I'd ordered a beer just to have a bottle. And I sat in the corner And the president came up to me and asked what I was doing there. And we start talking and 2 hours later we're still talking and he gives me his business card and asked what I was doing. You know, he'd asked what I was doing there.

I said I was there for work. And the next day was my first day at work. And on my lunch break, I checked my voicemail and I had a call from him asking how my first day of work was going. And I was like, well, that's pretty cool, you know? And I'm poor, you know, I just started working out there. I'm living with my cousin. So he invites me over for dinner. So I go over there for dinner. And next, next, you know, like every week I'm going over there for dinner. So I start hanging out more and more and I was like, man, he was older, but there was a lot of younger guys and like, you know, it was— this was Reno where nothing closed, bars don't close, right? So I wasn't really drinking at the time, but we'd stay out late, we're riding bikes fast. I was like, this is it, this is for me. And he was building a new chapter called Bordertown right there on the border of Nevada, California, and said, hey, if you join this chapter, you won't have to prospect. You can just be a full patch member because they need the members to join the chapter.

And so I ended up joining. That was the first, like, big motorcycle club I got into.

Shit. Where's your brother at at this time?

So my brother had chosen to start prospecting for the Outsiders after I left and moved and moved to Nevada. So he's in Oregon, but I'm now— I'm calling him up telling him about, hey, there's this club here and these guys are great and they're younger guys. And so he came down to visit a few times and I talked him into moving down there with me. So when we joined, we joined together, actually. No shit.

Yeah, right on.

Yeah, we had— we rode to Nevada. We had to ride to Las Vegas to a big run where they handed us our patches and then they're like, you know, put these on. But they said you have to make sure that they don't peel off, right? Like, no one can— no other member can't grab it, peel it off. And you got a needle and thread and they're giving you like 20 minutes, you know, come on, come on. We're getting ready to leave. I'm trying to sew it and I sewed it to the ironing board. I sewed my vest to the ironing board. And what sucks is that was the second time that's happened because with the Outsiders, when I started prospecting, they had a tradition which they'd asked me not to share, but, but the tradition got me a little buzzed up. And then they go, here, sew, sew your prospect rockers on. So it's the top rocker that said Outsiders and the bottom one that said Portland. And I'm trying to sew it under the pool table, and I sewed the top of it into the, the felt of the pool table. So sewing was not my thing.

Right on.

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Anything significant happen with the, the Vargos?

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, so this is now— this is a much bigger club. I'm starting to— you know, in Oregon there was 4 major clubs there and they all got along. So there was no clubs at war. There wasn't the violence. Like, you know, like every club, everyone thinks their club's the best, right? But they all party together. They work together. There was no, you know, like big war stuff going on. And when I joined the Vagos, at first it was like just a fun party stuff. But they were starting to kind of butt heads with the Hells Angels already. And they had— there was some old agreement that I didn't know of. You know, obviously it was new. Where there was a club called the Renegades that the Vagos told couldn't be in Nevada anymore, and, and the Hells Angels agreed to it. Well, the Renegades came back, and now they've got support from the Hells Angels. The Vagos are mad. So it was, you know, these meetings about what's going to happen, and I'm sitting there thinking, like, I was all excited to join a club to ride bikes and party with my friends, and I was talking about fighting Hells Angels, you know.

And I didn't even know much about Hells Angels, like, so to me, I was like, crazy, like, that's some next level stuff, right? Um, like a suicide mission. Yeah, dude. And in fact, one of the first times we, we thought we might actually have to fight them is when I saw how structured and impressive they were. Is we were going to one of those confederation clubs where there's— those are supposed to be like neutral ground, but there's still a flex there, you know. And the Vagos had some out-of-state guys come, and we're like, hey, we're gonna go here, and if those Renegade guys are there, we're gonna tell them they can't be here. And we think we're smart by going an hour or two early, and when we get there, the Hells Angels probably been there 4 hours early, and they had guys in trucks and cars that already blocked off the exits. The guy up, you know, we're in this parking lot, there's guys up in this parking lot. Like, they had guys that were roving up and down the aisles. Like, they had it on lock. And I remember being super impressed about their security because I've always been into that, especially from the gang stuff, like that structure and the security and the protocol piece of it.

And, you know, they had guys at the back door and the front door. And I remember thinking, man, if something kicks off, we are screwed, you know. And so we had walkie-talkies, I think, at the time, if I remember correctly, or maybe it was Nextel two-ways. It was the Nextel two-ways. But some of the guys in our chapter were inside the meeting, and we— so we don't know what's going on, but we're waiting for a call. And then we were in a spotter car, and there were some other spotter cars, but it was me and my brother and two members of the Vagos. And this Hells Angel car, it kept pulling up next to us and stopping and then driving off. And one of the guys said, hey, if they pull up next to us, if they roll that window down We're going to have to shoot. Like, we don't shoot them before they shoot us. And I'm sitting there like, okay, this is getting crazy. And sure as shit, man, they pull up next to us and the window starts coming down and they start yelling, shoot!

And I'm just like—

and thank God nobody— right when the window comes down, the guy just reaches out and he like does this on the side of his car. Then they drive off. But I remember that was one of those moments where I was like, that's how quick these things can happen. Um, and so there were some situations like that, some standoffs. There was, um, a club in Northern California that called Hellbent that I had met their chapter, and they were all younger guys, and I was really impressed because they had a president that was like 27. I was like, whoa, you can be a president at 27? You're like, cool. And, uh, they were getting into what the Hells Angels, and so they ended up joining the Vagos. So now I'm going over to Sacramento and Redding, Shasta County, and partying with these guys all the time because, you know, I'm in Reno, so like, I think, 2-3 hour ride. And me and my brother were so new that we wanted to, to get our name out there, so we were riding everything. We would go Reno to Vegas to LA, Sacramento. We were going back to Oregon.

Like, we were always on our bikes. Like, every weekend we had— in fact, I got fired from the gas meter job because I was taking time off to ride all the time. Started selling bikes for Harley-Davidson, but you got to do that on the weekend, so I got fired from that, um, because my whole focus was just, you know, I wanted to be in this club and I wanted to, like, start earning a name for myself. Um, which is when I got my nickname Mooch.

How'd you get that?

We were on a club run to, um, Hollister, California, and man, it was like 114 degrees going there.

It was brutal.

Like, we had to pull over every 20 miles and drink water, and people are passing out. And we get to this campground, and this is like one of those terrible biker parties that's out in the field. There's no women, there's no there's nothing. We're just sitting out. There's no shade even. There was no trees, no water, and everyone was just miserable. And normally, like, at these events, you normally stick with your chapters. Like, our chapter had our own, like, where our tents and campground food were, but we kind of all mill around together too. And I remember just being exhausted and asking my chapter president if I could go back to camp for a little bit. And he goes, yeah, yeah, we'll be back in a little bit. So I go back into camp and I'm sitting there and I'm eating a sandwich or a burger and The president walks back up and he goes, man, where'd you find a chair at? Because there was barely even chairs. And I was like, oh, it's Glenn's chair. And he goes, you're cooking? I was like, yeah, yeah, Barry's cooking. He's like, where'd you get that hat?

I was like, ah, so-and-so gave it to me. He goes, didn't I give you that shirt?

I go, yeah.

He goes, man, you're a fucking mooch. And I was like, all right. And he goes, he goes, so that's your— because that's your new nickname. And I was like, whatever. And he goes, I want you to go around and introduce yourself as mooch. So, you know, it was new, so I had to go chapter to chapter. Hey, what's up, I'm Vago Mooch from Bordertown. And every time I said mooch, they Mucha, we want like a beer or burger or something. And I go, well, hell yeah, this is going to be all right. And that was it, man. Stuck with me ever since.

That's right on.

Yeah, it wasn't that I ever asked for things or, you know what I mean? It just, things worked out, man. They came my way and I say, okay, right on, right on. But yeah, so we did that run and we had a couple of other like run-ins with Hells Angels that didn't turn violent. Or we got there too late, you know, those types of things. There was a time that the Hells Angels had raided the Vagos clubhouse in Redding. So like, you know, we got a call, we had to rush over the hill to get there. But of course, by the time we're there, it's over. So we're just there to help with security and support. So there was these like almost cold wars like that.

What are the beefs over?

Territory, drama. And when I— here's when I say territory, everyone thinks it's like drug territory or money. And I I like to say that I wish that was true because it would at least make sense, right? But it's not. It's, we were here first, this is our city, this is our state, you can't be here. And, or like in that instance, first it was they were supporting, uh, the Renegades and the Vagos said we can't have Renegades here. And then in Shasta County, hey, that's a Hells Angels territory and we're not going to let Vagos start a chapter here. So it's just this ego of who was there first or whose area it is.

So when you have a—

how, I mean, how big were the Vagos compared to the Hells Angels?

A lot smaller. I mean, they're, they're pretty big now, but at the time the Vagos were mainly in Southern California. They just moved into Northern California. They had two small chapters in Southern Oregon and then in Nevada.

So I guess what I'm asking is, are these like— I mean, I don't know any other way to describe it— what are they like, feeders into the the bigger clubs, like a minor league ball team. You know, you have the, I don't know, the St. Louis Cardinals and then the farm team.

So there's— there are a lot of clubs that are like that. The Vagos. So there's like, depending on who you ask, somewhere 6 or 8 clubs that stand on their own. And then there's a lot of these other clubs that are support or farm teams, like the Renegades, for example. They would have been like a feeder club for the Angels. The Vagos are on their own. They didn't answer another club. They didn't support another club. They were quite a bit smaller at the time, but they were their own independent club.

Why would a—

I mean, why would, why would somebody in the Renegades want to be a feeder to the Hells Angels? Why wouldn't you just want to become a Hells Angel?

So that's a very good question that people ask often. And to answer, I'll tell you that I had support. I'd wanted to start the support club for the Mongols, but I didn't want to have like 12 different ones. I just wanted one, right? So And this was years later, but it answers the question is we developed this club called the Raiders, but it actually already existed, but I changed the program so it could be national. And what I noticed was there's a lot of people, especially now that motorcycle clubs are a lot more mainstream and popular culture, that look at Mongols or One Percenters and go, I can never do that. That's crazy. But I want to ride and have a patch and hang out with the boys and go to the parties. So I'll do this one. And they take the smaller one. And then once you get into it and you're riding, you realize, okay, I'm putting in the same amount of work. The rules are pretty much the same., then people kind of step up.

It's an introduction to the lifestyle.

Yeah, but a lot of people don't necessarily do it so they could say, oh, I'm going to go from here to here. A lot of people say, oh, that's a better fit for me because maybe you got a good job and a family and you trick yourself into thinking—

It's the club that engineers it. They engineer it.

Is that what you're saying? The club engineers it so that it's like a baby step.

When it comes to direct support clubs, for sure. When it comes to some of those smaller clubs, there's a lot of people that want to wear a patch and be involved in a club but don't want to be involved in a major club. They don't want the, the wars and the drama and the stuff that goes with it, but they still want this brotherhood and wear a patch. And in order to do that, often you have to be affiliated with whatever clubs in that state, whatever the dominant club is in that region. So if you want to say you and 8 guys wanted to start a chapter in Nevada, you're going to have to find out who the local, what, you know, who the big club was there and then have to get their permission. And to get their permission, half the time they're going to say, yeah, but you got to wear the support patch or you You know, you got to come to our parties.

What about something like the Booze Fighters? Do they fall under it? I mean, that's a national club. Yeah, might be an internet— it's probably an international club, huh?

I think so.

That's a good question.

They're definitely national. They're big. So I think, A, they've existed longer than most clubs, so maybe they're already in some of these regions. But what I have seen, they definitely don't answer to any other club or they don't support another club. They stand on their own. But due to politics and because of like the levels of where club stuff goes state by state, they're probably aligned. Like if you go to Washington, maybe they're aligned with the Angels, and then over here they're aligned with the Bandidos. And when I say aligned, I don't mean like they're following their rules, but those are their friends, like they're friendly with, um, because it's the politics of that state. And, and these major 1% clubs operate on a different level, um, so they have to have these cordial relations. Like the Booze Fighters don't want to go with the War of the Hells Angels, right? So they want to keep things cordial, so they keep things political. Have their meetings, but they're not stepping on each other's toes and taking each other's members or, you know, all those things that stir the pot.

Mm-hmm. All right. Where do we go from here?

Okay.

Vagos.

I'm getting ready to leave the Vagos because I had just moved back to Oregon and I transferred to a Vagos chapter there. One of the Vagos there had owned a tile company. And so I was learning how to lay tile. I was thinking, okay, maybe this is still searching for this career I could do where I could be a biker, still work, right? Um, and popular contrary belief, people think you can join a motorcycle club, make money, but it just costs money, man. You're getting— you're paying dues, you're on the road all the time, you're going to events. Um, and at least every club I've been in discourages any sort of major illegal activity, because if, if me and you are in a chapter and you're selling a bunch of drugs and you get busted, it's gonna affect me, it's gonna affect everyone else in the circle. So there wasn't like opportunity where you join this club and you're like, cool, that's what I do for a living now, right? Like, like it was on Sons of Anarchy and all this stuff. There's individuals sometimes in different clubs that do illegal stuff. I always chose— I know a lot of people and I networked a lot, so potentially maybe I could have gotten into drug dealing if I wanted to.

But I watched my dad go to prison for it. And I always said, you know, I would rather be poor and free than be the guy with the flashing cash around and quick money and then end up going to prison over it. So it just, to me, I was always looking for a career or like a, you know, an actual paycheck, but trying to balance that where you're on the road and trying to be active and especially in a young age with not a lot of work experience outside of being in a band and some retail stuff, it was a challenge. And so when I got offered that tile position, I was like, okay, the guy that owns it's a vago. So he can, he makes it work. He's still active and he, and he, you know, and a lot of those trades, you make good money too. So I moved up there to work for him. And as soon as I moved there, I saw that the two chapters in Oregon didn't like each other. And at first I was thinking, you know, we're all the same club, right? So it's probably just some egos or whatever.

But around this time, one of the vagos that actually met at that Hollister run, Wild Bill, when I got my nickname, he got shot off his bike and killed in California, Southern California. And there was rumors that it could have been from the club. He was a member and it could have been from another chapter. And that didn't sit right with me. Like, I was— again, I joined a motorcycle club to ride bikes and party, you know. And if we have to defend ourselves, I'm down. But being in a club where you might have to worry about your own club killing you, I couldn't even fathom it. Like, there's no brotherhood in that. And I'm not saying that that club does that, but what I'm saying is at that time, that is what had happened. And now here we are in Oregon, that club that had patched over in Shasta County, they had, they were having a big meeting with, with the, the state leadership. So like the, the Northern California boss or rep for the Vagos was coming to this meeting. And, um, they'd asked us to show up to like as support to be there and hear what's talked about, maybe support them.

And as I show up, I'm here, you know, in my vest and with the Redding guys, we're all in our patches. And then this, the state boss comes in with all these guys from this Sacramento, North Sacramento chapter. And none of them are wearing anything that says Vagos. None of them are wearing anything that says anything green. They're wearing leather gloves and they're frisking everyone going into this meeting. And I was like, man, this is how we treat each other? You know, like this, A, it's some bully shit, but B, it's like, this is supposed to be about brotherhood. So it was already, those two things were already on my mind. And then the final straw was, I mean, we're in church talking about, which is our weekly meetings. And because of what we just saw in Shasta County, that state boss said he was coming up to try and work things out between the two chapters in Oregon that weren't getting along. And we saw how they worked things out in Shasta County, right? So my president's talking about where we're going to stash guns in the clubhouse if we have to defend ourselves.

And I remember thinking like, what the hell am I doing here, man? We got to defend ourselves against the chapter that's across town? And so that was kind of the beginning of the end of that club for me. When I was living in Nevada, I had met a Mongol who turned out to be a confidential informant the whole time, which I hadn't known. But, you know, he was going to church there. I remember when I moved there, my cousin goes, oh, we know a Mongol, he goes to our church. Um, and that wasn't something I'd heard of or thought before. Okay. And then he would do this stuff where, uh, he was into martial arts and he was a fighter, and he would do those demonstrations where like he would break through ice or punch coconuts and stuff like that. And had a reputation as a tough guy.

But he—

I wouldn't say he was that cool even, but he was cordial. And when I told him I was moving to Oregon, he said, I think we have members up there. If you ever need anything, give them a call. So I had his business card and there wasn't any up there, but I had his card. And then right when all this is going on, the Mongols had a new website, which I'm just funny to say out loud. But either way, they had this website and Doc Cavazos was the national president of Mongols at the time. And this was in a period where he was really pushing expansion across the country. So they were, they were starting new chapters all over. And he had put on the website, you know, Mongol Nation welcomes the Oregon chapters. Well, I know now that there was, I think, one guy. They didn't really have an Oregon chapter. But at the time, I had called them up and said, hey, you know, I'm from here. I know a bunch of people. If you guys need anything, let me know. We could ride around together. I'll introduce you, show you around places.

And it was kind of like my introduction to that club because now we're talking back and forth. I'm talking to their national leadership.

What drew you to them originally? What about that specific club?

They have a rule that Mongols can't fight Mongols. There's nothing two brothers can't sit down and talk about. And that, that was the biggest piece for me.

Is that the only club that has that?

The Outsiders had that rule too. But as far as national clubs, I believe so.

What are the— what are maybe the top 5 clubs?

Well, there's Hells Angels and Outlaws, which are the most well-known. I would say the Mongols are up there now, the Pagans, Sons of Silence, and probably Vagos now. And Bandidos is a big one, probably one of the biggest, actually.

What are the— what are they known for? What are the characteristics, the culture?

In the early eras, I mean, even right before I joined, it was more a read. Like, if you went to Texas or down south, it was likely Bandidos. If you were in the Midwest, then it was Outlaws. If you're on the East Coast, it was Pagans. If you're in California, it was, you know, Northern California, it was Hells Angels. If it were Southern California, it was Mongols, Vagos, Hells Angels. Bandidos were also up in like Montana and up there. So it's kind of like they had their own little regions, and that was the big dominant club for each region.

Any specific characteristics?

I mean, the Mongols were primarily Hispanic. Um, the Vagos, because both— because they came from Southern California, had that more kind of gang culture, Hispanic culture, kind of like that car club/street gang culture. Um, the Pagans, at least that era of the Pagans, were like still really grungy old-school biker dudes. Um, so yeah, it just kind of depended on like what that region was like, but, but— it was more the result, a reflection of the culture, right? Southern California versus Texas, right? The Bandidos looked like they came from Texas. They had a handful. I mean, they had a good amount of Hispanic members, too. And then a lot of the clubs, the most other clubs were all pretty predominantly white. Okay.

Any, any, anything like this was the most ruthless club? This is—

I think every club will say they were. But, you know, at the time, The Mongols were known as the most violent motorcycle club because of all the public stuff that had happened. You know, Laughlin had happened in 2000— was it 2002?

What was that?

That was when the Hells Angels and Mongols got into a shootout at the casino in Laughlin, Nevada. Um, and what was it, 3— 1 Mongol died and 2 Hells Angels. Yeah, 3 people I think were killed. Um, but you know, it was a huge public shooting, it was all over the news.

Were you a part of that?

No, I joined 2007. Okay. But that was like the first one of the first big, like, nationally known fights between the two. And so also when the Mongols started, they were very small and they went to— they— the war started with the Hells Angels in the early '70s and we're talking bombings and shootings and the Mongols didn't get wiped off the map. In fact, grew and got bigger and are still here. And so they were known as just this violent club that, you know, took care of themselves, took care of each other, supported each other. So there was this big brotherhood piece, but there was also like, they can stand up on their own because even the Hells Angels couldn't wipe them out.

What is the— what's the history of the Mongols? How'd it start?

So the Mongols started, um, in 1969, Montebello, California. There was a group of— I want to say there was 9 guys, but it could have been 6, but there was, there was a small group of guys that come from the car culture They wanted to get into motorcycle clubs, and they had met, you know, at their garage meeting about, you know, hey, we want to do a club. And they went out and they were hanging out with this club called the Molochs, which were big in that area at the time. And as they hung out, they— the Molochs wanted to, you know, told them what prospecting was like and hanging around, and they wanted to treat them a certain way. And the Mongols thought they were above that treatment, these guys that want to. And so they said, why don't we just start our own club? And so they got together and they called their club the Mongols. You know, the misconception is that we hear in the media a lot is that the Mongols the guys that started the Mongols weren't allowed in the Hells Angels because they were Hispanic. But the Hells Angels had plenty of Hispanic members, especially back then.

I mean, not even especially, but I mean, there was plenty back then too. And so, I mean, there's just some false narrative that I'm honestly not even sure it came from other than it's like Coke versus Pepsi, right? The Mexican club and American club. Like, I think it's just more of an easier way to describe the two's adversity, but It was like where a lot of clubs started. It was just in that era of group of guys got together, were riding bikes, and they saw like the Booze Fighters and the popular culture of, you know, Hells Angels on wheels and all these different movies that were coming out and they wanted to start their own club.

Right on. I am a little curious too. I mean, I know you're craving the brotherhood, a brotherhood. But why didn't you go with something that was not a 1% club?

So at first I did with the Outsiders. They weren't a 1% club, but like I said, to me they were at the time, right? Because that's all I knew. The Vagos weren't a 1% club when I was in at the time. They are now, but they weren't considered a 1% club when I was in. So to me it was almost like a step, like I was learning the process, learning the program, and it was kind of a step up. Okay. Yeah. I mean, that would be the best way to describe it. And also, like, like I said, when I've always— when I get into it, I just want to be— to me, like, I— it would be especially young me with the ego. It'd be hard for me to be at a bike event thinking me and my club were top shit. And then the other club comes in, like, you know what I mean? Like, so just my personality, I think attracted to me to want to be in the more dominant club. The caveat to that is when I did join the Mongols, there was no Mongols in Oregon, so I started the first chapter there.

So we weren't this— they might have been really big in California, but we were unknown. No one really even knew what Mongols were at the time, and we were severely outnumbered. So it was almost like starting from square one in your own club.

Right on. See, shit. So there was one Mongol in Oregon at the time.

Yeah, yeah, we kicked him out pretty shortly after that. He, uh, he wasn't our type of dude. No, he was a truck driver. He didn't have a bike.

He didn't have a bike?

No, he was from some club called the Loners, and I don't know if he was between bikes or what his deal was, but he was a truck driver, so he was never around. And I think— I don't know how they brought him in or why, but when we started, they were like, oh yeah, we got this one guy up there. And we went and met with him and we're like, yeah, no, this ain't gonna work, dude. Same for you. But yeah, so I had— was making these calls trying to, you know, introduce people, see if we can meet. And I had talked to my time, my whole chapter, which was the South Valley Vagos, were not cool with all the stuff that was going on. And again, I'm new to the Vagos.

Yeah.

So that like the internal fighting.

Okay.

And then there was just the, you know, the politics, club politics and stuff. They weren't happy with certain things. And I was still new and naive, so I didn't really know much about it or be involved in any of that. I know it was only in the Vagos for just shy of 2 years, so, you know, I'm still learning. But I was telling my president Magpie that, hey, I know a guy in the Mongols. Like, we had gone out to lunch and I remember him saying he had been in a smaller club that became Vagos. So he said, man, I was already in another club. The only other club I joined is the Mongols. Otherwise, like, I guess club life's not for me. And I was like, well, hey, I know a Mongol and I've been talking to these guys. So I reached out and asked to get— I reached out to that informant, Coconut Dan, and asked him, hey, who's your boss? Like, who can I talk to? You know? And so someone from the Mongols governing body is called Mother Chapter. So someone from their Mother Chapter called me and we're kind of shooting the shit.

And I said, well, hey, man, you know, here's the thing, we're interested in patching over. And I said, you know, initially it was supposed to be my whole chapter. But the way politics and stuff goes, you know, people are talking behind each other's backs and these guys were deciding, okay, well, if Magpie was the president, if he goes, that means if I stay, I could be the president. And there was this stupid politics stuff. So, but initially I thought there was going to be, you know, 6 or 8 of us. And so the president or the dude from other chapter of the Mongols, he says, well, I'll tell you what, we're going to be at Daytona Bike Week and I don't know, something like, say, a month. Um, this was in March— no, it was October. It was because it was Biketoberfest. So he goes, why don't you fly out here, spend the weekend with me and some of the Mongols, and, uh, you know, we'll talk and see if it's for you. Looking back, crazy. So I fly out there by myself, don't know these guys, didn't bring anybody with me, never even been there.

I'm still wearing a Vago t-shirt for who knows why. I thought that was a good idea because in club life, in theory, I was supposed to tell my chapter, hey, I'm going to be out of state. And if you're in another— there wasn't Vagos out there at the time, but still, that means I should have told national leadership I'm going to be over here. Like, anytime you're going to wear your patch somewhere we're not at, you have to get clearance and all that. But I was, you know, cocky young me, I didn't care. Um, shortly before, maybe a few months before that, the Vagos had started to try to start a chapter in Georgia, and the Outlaws had shut it down. And so there won't be Vagos out here. I don't know, paying attention to any of this, right? I'm just a cool young guy. So I fly out there in my Vagos shirt and meet up with these Mongols, and we're going out, and we go to the strip club, the Shark Tank. And as soon as I walk in, I saw two Outlaws, and they were sitting in the corner. And I'd never seen an Outlaw in my life to this time, right?

They were out in the East or Midwest and South. And, um, there was two older guys, and I just remember thinking, this is this badass club here, the Outlaws? These are like some two older guys, you know? And these bigger— all the bouncers, they were really big dudes, and they were kind of— I, I noticed they were kind of corralling us to a certain spot, and they kept going, hey, you guys got weapons? That's— if you do, we'll stash them back here. But like, they were trying to take our weapons from us, and I started paying more attention. They were wearing like One Percenter necklaces and rings, and these guys were Outlaws. Um, and what I didn't know is the Outlaws and that Mongol boss that I was with were having a scheduled meeting And that's why we were there. So, you know, I'm there as a guest, so I can't ask all these questions. You know, I'm just like, oh, here, we're cool, we're going out. The Mongols had just started a chapter in Florida, and the Outlaws weren't real happy about it, so they were meeting to kind of discuss this, unbeknownst to me.

So I'm standing there and just now figuring out, hey, these— all these guys are corralling us here, they're Outlaws. And I just hear this roar of bikes, and I'd say 15, 20 Outlaws come rolling in, and at the time their national president was there. He's up front, he's wearing overalls, this big tall guy, and he's wearing overalls, no shirt, he's covered in white power tattoos.

He had like—

his head was big bald, but his— he had like his sideburns were grown out and he had these swastika beads in them. I mean, like, he was a presence, you know. And, uh, I just remember feeling this real tension, and him and the Mongol boss walked down the back of this strip club and they wouldn't let anyone else go out there. And next thing you know, it's 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 20, 30 minutes. And I noticed these Mongols I'm with are starting to get uncomfortable. The outlaws are posted up all around like security, you know, they got guys in the corner. And any time that informant Coconut Dan, he went to go check on the president because he was the sergeant of that chapter. And first they told him he couldn't go out there and then they pulled him out there and then he didn't come back. And, you know, everyone's starting to think, fuck, dude, it's pretty sketchy. And so I got up just to take a leak and an outlaw pushes me and says, go back to your chair, go back to your table. So now it's me and there's 3 Mongols with me.

One of them has since passed, but me and Dozer and then 2 other guys. And I remember them thinking like, this isn't good, dude. Like, I don't know if we're going to get out of here, you know? And I remember texting my twin brother going, yeah, I don't know if I'm coming home from this one, you know? And I remember the Mongols looked at me and they said, hey, listen, dude, like, you're not a— you're not a Mongol. You're a guest. You can leave. And it just wasn't in me to leave. I showed up with them, I was going to leave with them. So I sucked it up and stayed and things looked worse than they were and we ended up leaving. But because I stuck by, I had a meeting with them and they said, hey man, you're welcome to join the club if that's what you want to do. So I went home and rounded up the guys I had and then we had to go to Nevada and do like a formal interview where we met with some like old school, the leadership guys and then they do a background check and all that stuff.

And then we got the okay to join.

A background check?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. There's— if you join the Mongols, there's like an application packet. And like, I mean, you go back to where you went to, where you went to grade school, who your high school friends were, where it was your first job, because they have private investigators that look into all this stuff to make sure you are who you say you are. And another important part too is make sure that, you know, you're not a child sex offender or, you know, an informant or a snitch or someone that told, you know, any of those types of things. So they do this, this detailed background check. But what's crazy about it is, you know, feds can figure things out. And there was— when I joined in 2007, 2008 was Operation Black Rain, which was a, I think, 5-year undercover investigation into the Mongols. And they had 6 undercover ATF agents. 3 were males that were members. The other 3 were their wives, their wives. And they had all gone through the same background checks. In fact, passed lie detector tests. And the whole time they were undercover federal agents. So the background check couldn't really catch that.

I guess my argument with the background check stuff was always that, right? Like, A, how are you going to find out someone's an informant? Because a lot of times they get caught doing something while they're in the club and then they start telling on people. There's no vetting process for that, right? And B, it's the federal government, man. They have their— these guys got made-up secure Social Security numbers, background checks, everything else. And so if they really want to, they're going to figure it out. I know, like, for me it was easier in Oregon because I grew up there. I knew it. Even if I didn't— someone starts coming around, if they grew up there, I can find someone I know that went to high school with his friend, or you know what I mean, or something like that. But as the club got national and bigger, um, you know, they couldn't really do that. And so when Doc was bringing all these people into the club, they're, you know, he was letting whoever join. And so with— for, for the idea of, hey, we're being all these new states but it brought in those 3 undercover guys.

There was 3 ATF agents that were out on the East Coast that later became Outlaws before they ended their investigation. And they were, they were started as Mongols in Virginia and Baltimore. So like, you know, through this expansion brought in a lot of, a lot of undercover agents.

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What kind of stuff were they asking you for the, the interview or onboarding, or what did you call it, initiation?

Yeah, it was an interview. It was pretty much an interview. It was, uh, one of the most serious dudes in the club, someone I respect very much. And, uh, you know, why do you want to join? Uh, what were you doing before?

What'd you say?

Well, I, I had told them I really liked that the brothers You know, brothers couldn't kill each other. That brothers weren't even allowed to fight each other. So the Mongols had a really good reputation for like brotherhood. Like the focus was brotherhood. And I don't mean the word. I mean, like everyone stuck up for each other. Like we, instead of being like Portland chapter or Salem chapter, we were the Mongols. Like everyone, especially once Oregon grew, like we rolled as one big chapter. So it was just the support and the, you know, riding in the big groups and the packs and the big parties. But on top of that, the Mongols had a reputation. No one messed with them. I mean, the Hells Angels didn't even fuck with them anymore, right? So that was obviously attractive. And also the fact that if they did, we have all the support. And I think too, what helps is, you know, so when I started it, I was the president because there was no one else there, right? I mean, I was elected by the group of guys we started with, but, you know, I had spearheaded it, so I became the president.

And it didn't take long before I realized the Mongols have a constitution and a and a whole booklet of bylaws. But as long as you follow those, you can kind of run whatever program you want. And I remember that it was an opportunity for me. Like, everyone goes, why didn't you join one of the local clubs over in Oregon? But these dudes were— oh, back then at least too, they were that old school biker. Like, these dudes, there was guys that were doing meth, these guys are stealing bikes. And, and even outside of that stuff, they were just a different culture of people, you know, where the Mongols gave me this opportunity where I could come in and kind of build a chapter and then eventually a region based off more of my morals and values and still be clean-cut and, you know, and but do all the same stuff. But I had more freedom to do that. And if any of the other clubs told me we couldn't be here and try to stop us, well, now I've got the backing of a national motorcycle club.

I always thought that was interesting. I actually looked into doing this. I didn't get very far, but when I was contracting, uh, for CIA, I was looking at this and I kept reading about it and watching everything I could get my hands on. And I saw— I read a bunch of different times that it was one of the ways to make money was stealing other people's bikes. And I just never— I was like, why the fuck are a bunch of motorcycle enthusiasts stealing each other's fucking bikes? It just never made any damn sense to me.

It makes no sense. And in my era, there's no money in it because everything's stamped, you know, like those early bike eras. And I think probably even through the '80s, maybe '90s, when everyone— that's why, you know, everyone has custom choppers, right? So you take pieces off this bike, put them on that bike. They had swap meets where they're selling parts. But nowadays, I mean, Harley and the government, they've all gotten, you know, every piece of that motor you've got over there has a stamp on it, a serial number or anything, you know, on the outside of the cases. And then you have to get— now, you know, everything has to be registered and Like, so if you bought— say you steal a bike, $15,000 motorcycle off the showroom floor, it's probably 2 grand worth of money, and it's like, what's the point, you know? Um, but yeah, that was a thing back then for sure, and it was kind of probably dying out by the time I was around, but it was— there were still clubs and dudes that were known for doing it. And, and I think to go more towards what you're getting at is there's this elitist mentality in a motorcycle club, right?

Like We're— you guys are all, you guys are all wannabes here. You're the rich bikers, the yuppies, you know, the Starbucks bikers. So you're trying to bite our culture.

We're going to—

dentists and the attorneys.

Yeah, exactly. You're going to ride down a Starbucks. Well, watch this, we're going to steal your fucking bike.

Okay.

So I— and I'm not saying that morally that's okay at all, but I can imagine that was that mindset, you know, like we were the ones living this life. We weren't stealing each other's bikes, you know.

Okay.

I mean, I want to be clear, I never sold anybody's bikes. When I say we, I just mean that culture, you know.

What other kind of questions were they asking you?

Um, that was— I mean, because I'd come from the Vagos, you know, there was obviously the why would I choose one club over the other, which I had explained. Um, if— was there going to be any issue, which there was. What other clubs were in— what other clubs were in Oregon? Were they going to have an issue, which they did. Um, but kind of seeing like, is it worth bringing these guys in?

Is it—

are they going to Is it going to be a headache? Is it going to be more trauma? What I do for a living, because they, you know, they don't want to bring in a bunch of drug dealers and, you know, those types of things, like to get a sense of A, my background, but B, like what we're going to do, like what our priorities are, our goals, or are we going to come in and create a bunch of drama or are we going to come in and be able to run a good program and be successful and grow?

You know, I mean, I understand why they would have put you there because of the network, but at the same time, you're new to the program. At least this one, the Mongol program, it was not immersed in their culture. Why would they have not taken somebody that was deep in their program to, to, to bring that exact culture to Oregon versus somebody like you?

The way that it worked would never have worked other than that time period. And by, by that is exactly— so normally for like when I moved to the Midwest, then I started helping chapters there because I already been in the club 10 years, right? You normally wouldn't start a state with guys that weren't around the club, didn't come from the area, didn't know the history. I just happened to come in under that last 10-month window of Doc Cavazza being president where they were just letting people join so they can plant a flag in a new state. Um, any other leadership wouldn't have allowed it. In fact, because I came from the Vagos, most of the time most of the clubs and the Mongols had agreements later on with the Vagos, we couldn't take their ex-members. A lot of the big clubs don't take members from other bigger clubs, so I probably would have been denied for that too.

Why is that? Why won't they take a member? They think it's a mole or something?

Potentially. But no, it's more than just the drama that comes with it, right? Like when I left the Vagos, there was a contract out on my life. When— I mean, I never believed in that. I never used to believe in those things. But the ATF came to my house in front of my mom, intercepted some letters in prison where there's some Oregon Vagos We're trying to get somebody to come kill us because we'd left, right? We was disrespectful and we left. And not only did I leave, but I took about 12 guys with me because I had the Oregon guys. I took eventually all those guys in Redding that I was telling you about, the vagos. I brought— became— made them all Mongols. I brought 2 guys in from Vegas, a guy from Reno. So, you know, we, we poached out of their pond essentially. And so there's this— that again goes to ego, but it's also disrespect. So it— especially with other national clubs, right? Like, say we take a member of the Outlaws, for example, and on the East Coast we're all close friends. But now we did this. So this, this state's mad at us and the Mongols.

Every club runs a little different, but the way the Mongols work is if you put hands on a Mongol in Oakland, you have beef with the Mongols everywhere. You know, it's, it's not like, oh, that's a Florida issue or that's a— it's everywhere. And so taking someone from other club and then stirring up problems like that, now the whole club is fighting another club because of you. Are because you're guys. And so it's, it's usually discouraged.

Gotcha. So you make it.

I make it. Yeah.

Send you back up there.

So I was already back, you know, I was back in Oregon doing this tile thing. They sent me back up there. I get the guys together. At the time, the Vagos had a rule. I don't know if it still is or not, but there used to be this old school rule in all the old school clubs that You had to sign your title over to the club. And if you ever quit or were out and bad, they kept your bike. It was kind of an antiquated rule because this was back when people owned their motorcycles. There were choppers or something, you know. And by the time I was around, most people were financing their bikes. There isn't a title to sign over. And I also think they found out later that if you try to leave the club and me and 6 guys keep hounding you and trying to steal from you, We're just pushing you into the arms of law enforcement anyways, right? Like, it's, it's, uh, I don't know. I just don't think it was a good, a good rule. But either way, um, the Vagos were attempting to take my motorcycle because I had lived at this apartment with other tile layers that all worked for this Vagos company.

Um, so I had to go get my bike back before they got it. And then we just kind of separated ties and, and started trying to build our own program and, and, uh, It's crazy to think about, man, because everything worked out in these like right times, otherwise it wouldn't exist. Like, the Gypsy Jokers are the biggest club in Oregon. They're a very reputable gangster-ass 1% club, and they had a rule, or still probably do, that there's no other black and white— no other clubs with the colors of black and white in Oregon, and then no other 1% clubs in Oregon. And then here comes my 25-year-old ass, and let's see, by now I'm 27, like me and 4 or 5 other guys and they probably got 80 in the whole state. And we're like, yeah, well, here we are. We started in Eugene, Oregon, where this club, the Free Souls, have been there since the '60s. They were the only one that got to claim Eugene, and here we are. So we kind of, you know, put our thumb in the eye of all these— disrespectfully— these clubs that were, hey, we're established, here's the rule, we all get along fine.

And then we show up and, uh, no one was getting along anymore.

You show up with 4 or 5 other people, so 6 of you Yeah, we started with 6.

I did.

What is your first— when they tell you, hey, you're going to stand this up in Oregon, what is your first move with this, with these 4 or 5 other guys?

Well, at first I thought we're going to have closer to 12, and then I come back and find out that that chapter was like, no, we're staying with the Vagos, you're on your own. And in fact, my president when I was in the Vagos, my chapter president was this guy named Magpie. He's the one we had the lunch together, you know, but I had like I went out and put in the work, but it was, you know, we were on board with it. When he found out the whole chapter wasn't going to go, he wanted to stay and be loyal to his chapter. So he did the right thing and stayed with the Vagos. And to reward him, they made him a— took him— took his presidency away. They made him a prospect. They had him running like menial errands. This is the guy that started, you know, helped run that chapter, disrespected him to the point that, you know, I went and picked him up and said, hey, come on, dude. They obviously you know, they don't want you here, and, and it should come with us from the beginning.

So that's interesting too, because you had mentioned that, uh, during the interview they don't want you pulling from other clubs and starting all kinds of fucking drama, and here you are going right back and going to the Vagos. Well, come on, boys.

So at that time there was obviously immediate issues because I don't— a handful of us already came from there, right? So I mean, like, that— there was already that beef between us and our chapter. Now So I don't even think it did anything to stoke the fires. I think it was already going. And on top of that, they were running them off by the way they were treating them. So I think they kind of assumed that was going to happen anyways.

Okay.

But our issue wasn't bad with them at the time because they were down in Southern Oregon and we were up in the valley, you know, Salem, Portland area. And so they were 3 hours away. So like we didn't really— we weren't bumping into each other at bars and stuff like that. So it was more of a rumor mill thing, or if we were passing through type stuff. But as far as, uh, people putting hands on each other, it never escalated to that.

Okay.

Um, and what else are you thinking about other than personnel not getting shot off our bikes? Um, well, so these other clubs are telling us we can't be there, and then at the same time, now law enforcement, they don't want a new national club in the area, so We got— now we're getting followed everywhere we go. We can't go to a bar without 8 cops out front. You know, first time I ever met an ATF agent, you know, we're standing in front of a hotel. This ATF agent comes to walk up to warn us that these other clubs are out looking for us. And so it's like things get real intense real quick. And again, it's so easy to get caught in the shuffle from going, hey, I want to be in a motorcycle club to hang out with my brothers, ride and party. And now it's like, if we want to be doing this, we have— like, things are serious. Like, it's a wartime club and every club here wants to kill us. So, uh, you know, we, we no longer was just party mode, it was the militant mode.

Do you have an HQ, the headquarters?

Yeah, so Mongols are different for the fact that they've been at war forever. Having a clubhouse is a dead giveaway of where you're going to be at.

It's a target.

Right, for the enemy. And so, no, I mean, we ended up having clubhouses in Oregon 10 years later when we're now getting along with every club there. And, uh, it was great to have a place to do meetings and, you know, meet for rides and throw parties. But at this time, it was better for us not to have one.

So where would you meet?

Different people's houses, garages. I mean, we moved it around a lot. I didn't want anyone to be able to— I did this optics game where we'd have a lot of my friends from the punk rock and skinhead scene and stuff like that would support us and hang out. And at that time we were allowed to have support shirts that said the word Mongols on it. Like every club is different how that goes, but like the Hells Angels, for example, they don't have any support shirt that says support Hells Angels. It'll say support red and white, support Big Red Machine. But if you see a t-shirt that says Hells Angels, they're a member.

Gotcha.

Mongols would have support Mongols or stuff like that or different logos, especially back then. It wasn't as strict. Like, so, you know, most people wouldn't be able to look at it and say, oh, that's a member or a supporter. And so I was putting support shirts on all the homies. And so, and if we went to a bar, sometimes we wouldn't wear our patch because I don't want to say, hey, there's 3 patch holders and 8 friends. We would just all wear t-shirts that said Mongols on it or support stuff. So I was always trying to make us look bigger than we were. Um, you know, obviously for safety reasons, um, and optics. And then on top of that, I started— I learned this going through it kind of as I go, but it was this low risk, high reward is what I would call it, is that these clubs, say, say that the Gypsy Jokers, for example, they definitely were a warrior club. I'm not saying that they weren't at this time, but a lot of the members either hadn't had any altercations or beef in a long time or were newer guys that hadn't lived through it.

So although they were the dominant club, their program or their structure wasn't the same as, say, a wartime club. And what I mean by that is like one guy would go to a bar over here, this guy hangs out over here. Like when the Mongols would go out, we'd go out together. We'd have a chase vehicle. We'd have, I mean, we were running a program. We walk into a bar and someone had already scouted it before we got in there. When we're in there, there's people watching. We go to the bathroom in pairs. No one's ever, like if me and you were talking, there's someone watching our backs. And a lot of it was the optics of those guys have their shit together. I don't want to mess with them. Right. Which kept people, especially when it came to like drama from frat boys and frunks.

Hard target.

Yeah. And especially for the clubs that notice. Exactly. And so I was doing a lot of that. But also what I wanted to show these people is that if you motorcycle clubs going to war isn't just like cool when you guys are all together at the swap meet, we're all together at swap meet, we're going to go heads up, right? It goes on, spills onto the streets. And so I wanted these guys to know, hey, if you're going to put hands on any of my guys, this is going to change the way you live your life. And, and so, for example, if I knew one guy from the other club was going to the same bar every Wednesday at 6, 3 or 4 of us might show up and have a drink and then leave, but he'd see us. If I knew this guy rode a certain— his bike a certain way to or from work, we might be hanging out at the stop sign when he cruised through. Never did anything to him, but they had to have that peace of mind where they go, okay, so if one of my guys attacks these guys, They know the way I ride to work.

They know the bars I hang at. Now I can't go here. Now I can't go there. And it really made people rethink getting involved or escalating because they saw they were going to have to change the way they live. We were already living this way. We already went out in groups and did it. We already had this program set up for it. And so I think that kept the violence at bay.

Right on. Right on.

Wow.

Shit.

How fast did you grow it?

Pretty quick. So pretty quick, I would say. So it was November of 2007 was our first chapter. Um, we started a second chapter about 3 months later up in Portland, which there were still smaller chapters, you know.

Holy shit.

But you know what, and also I lived here, right? So I know a lot, a lot of people. I knew a lot of younger people that were just getting into Harleys that didn't want to be riding around the older groups. A lot of us were all from the same circle in punk rock. So, you know, the connection piece helped quite a bit. But then in April, I got busted and it was all over the news. Mongol leader is going to jail. Mongol leader attempts to run law enforcement off the road. Mongol leader attempted kidnapping on federal agents. It's everywhere. And man, media, media plays a lot where all of a sudden a lot of people go, oh dude, the Mongols are here. And especially as I fought my case and it was on the news about me speaking out about that it was BS case and I was getting targeted by law enforcement, people that supported, people that saw that law enforcement was targeting us or didn't like that, wanted, they made them want to support us. And so it wasn't just that our name got out there. It was the mission or the image where they were like, Wow, these, these guys— because, you know, a lot of the stuff that I was arguing eventually in my trial was that we're not the working guy, especially we weren't a criminal organization.

Like, we chose this club because of the support and the backup, but we're running our own program. And, um, you know, we had like a no methamphetamine rule later on, years down the road, when I had more influence. Everyone had to work out 3 days a week. Everyone had visible means of income. Like, we were trying to make this a positive thing.

Everybody had to work out 3 days?

Yeah, yeah. Once I got into Regional leadership had rules that everyone had to work out 3 days a week.

So you implemented an entire program?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and you know why? Because when I first started coming around to those 1%er clubs, even the outsiders, these old-timers go, hey, you know, welcome to the nightmare. You're going to lose your old lady, you're going to lose your job, probably going to lose your freedom. And I was thinking, well, what the fuck, man? Doesn't sound—

this doesn't sound like a good deal.

And then I'm bringing people in too, right? And a lot of these people I went to high school with or whatever, like I wouldn't go, hey, what's up, man, you want to join my club so I can ruin your fucking life? You know, I wanted people to say— and maybe it's, it's ego, or maybe it's personal accountability, but I don't want anyone go, oh man, I started hanging out with Mooch and my life went downhill. So I wanted to try and make this like bring as much positivity to it I could. Now don't get me wrong, there's violence, there's threats of getting killed all the time, there's threats of going to prison for violence, so there's threats there. But I wanted to at very least make it that, man, these guys got me on a workout program, or I mean, by, you know, eventually I became a therapist. I got guys sitting in church telling me how they feel. We're talking about men being able to express emotions like I'm trying to make this a positive thing, you know, we had a no methamphetamine rule because you implemented that. The no meth rule was just in my regions.

How many people did that piss off?

Man, see, my regions were different because I started a lot of those chapters. There was a lot of guys that, like, I resonated with or got along with. So we were on the same page. We didn't have a lot of the old-timer dudes that were into that. But I mean, here's the other thing. There's always going to be people fight back because we're outlaws, 1%ers, and we got a shitload of rules and I have even more rules.

But before we go into all the rules and stuff that you implement, what is the mission? It's like I've talked to Mel about it. I've talked to George Christie about it. It kind of clicks, but it kind of doesn't. I mean, it sounds like it's—

it's—

I just don't fucking get it.

The mission gets a lifestyle, not an occupation.

Absolutely. And the mission gets lost in the shuffle. You know, the mission for me was I went from a street gang to wanting to still have that, you know, sense of that— that sense of belonging and people to go to— go out with and party with and ride bikes with. And it goes from that So all of a sudden now you're defending yourself. Now all these other clubs want to kill you, and now you're kind of thrust into this other life. And now you got these blinders on where now we're militant, now we're running a certain way, now we have this new program. Like, it, it just keeps it— I don't want to even say evolving because it's not, it's escalating.

Well, nobody can— I mean, nothing will create a brotherhood faster than a bunch of people trying to fucking kill a group of dudes.

Absolutely.

I can attest to that.

Yeah. And I mean, that's a lot of, you know, a lot of the guys that come to motorcycle clubs come from military and then they get out and they're seeking that, A, the brotherhood. But where a lot of people miss, it's not just people, it's that thrill, right? The adrenaline and especially that shared, like a shared trauma, shared adrenaline. Like we're on the road together, man. Two of us just got shot at over here. Like we're still here.

Whoa.

You know, those types of things. And it's like, Hey, unless you've been through it, you can't describe it, but it's one of those things that it obviously makes everyone tight. I mean, imagine a group of 6 guys where every other club in that state wants to kill you. We got pretty damn close, you know. And there was, you know, we're so— we were still young kids, and even as adults, there's so many times where we're just fucking around at the clubhouse, laughing, telling jokes, and, you know, talking shit.

I mean, that's the other thing that, you know, I mean You had mentioned earlier you were— I mean, it was the party too, right? It was the party. Absolutely. I'm sure there's plenty of meth at parties, plenty of women at parties, plenty of booze at parties. Is it partying every night?

No, no. Because, you know, and I guess that's part of that too, some of that stuff I implemented. So, you know, we're an outlaw club. We can't— we're not supposed to be able to tell you what you can and can't do. So telling someone they can't do drugs is crazy, right?

That's what I think.

But, and I had initially had a, a no hard drug policy at all, but I just found out people were doing cocaine behind my back because it is a lot of partying, you know. The reason that I struck with no methamphetamine, and thankfully, like I said, a lot of the guys that I was around weren't guys that did meth anyways, was because if, if you're doing any type of drug, say it's coke or even weed, we've sent guys to rehab. Mongols have their own rehab center, like, in Pasadena. It's owned and run by Mongols. I mean, the public can go to it, but that's like if you're a Mongol member and you're struggling, that's where we'll send you. If we have a member that's struggling with addiction, we don't kick them out. We try and help them. And when we— what we say is struggling is we notice if you now you're not paying your dues, you're not showing up to meetings, you're not getting your workouts in, eventually one of the workout rules, but you know, you're being a flake, all the things that come with being a drug addict, right? Then we're going to step in and we're going to get involved.

I feel like recreational drugs is a personal choice, shouldn't affect everyone else. As long as you're not, you know, there was always a no needle rule from like since the '60s because, you know, you can't be strung out and ride a bike. But also when it— for me, when it came to methamphetamine, I had seen the lives it ruined. I'd seen that it's not something people do recreationally. Next thing you know, you know, they're stealing, they're lying or whatever, right? And then a lot of those I don't know if those will piss people off or not, but it is what it is. A lot of people that are living that methamphetamine lifestyle become snitches, informants. Like, there's— it's just not a trust. There's no trust. There's— it's a moral value, right? It becomes— it becomes a personal trait, and it brings no benefit to the group. Like, if a guy is spun out on anything like that, what value does he bring to the group?

I agree with you.

And so that, that was my thing. If we're all at a party and some dudes are doing coke so they can stay up later tonight, for a night, like, whatever, dude. To me, it's no different than everyone drinking alcohol, right? The flip is, because we were at a wartime club, we didn't get drunk at bars. We weren't allowed to be. We had a 2-drink limit everywhere we went. If we want to get drunk, it was at the house or the clubhouse, but we wouldn't be drunk in public. There was no way. And in fact, I was the most sober I've ever been in my life from that, those early years, because I was in charge, and I was in charge of a lot of people and leadership. And the last thing I wanted was anything that was going to affect the way my mind thought, being slow, or miss the guy standing over here, that car that passed by. So we had to be on point. So I think there was that piece to it too, where, you know, if we wanted to go— we, we went out often, and it may look like we're partying all the time because a lot of going out and flying the flag means you're going to bar to bar to bar, but that's because that's where you're going to be seen.

But we didn't get drunk at bars. We get drunk at the clubhouse, we get drunk at the homie's house when we got home. But outside of that, or, you know, big national runs, but even then, especially early on, I'm still learning everyone in the club, man. This is a club full of killers and gangsters. Sure, we're not allowed to fight each other, but it's also not a— it's not a shield. I can't walk up to some OG and call him a bitch or I'm getting punched in the face. And so I didn't want anyone getting drunk and being too comfortable either. So it's like, hey, if you went to national run, if you're gonna party hard, you stay in your room.

Like, I mean, how hard was it to enforce the rules of not beating each other up, fighting each other, killing each other? I mean, you've got a handful of degenerates you know, all grouped in, who probably don't like being fucking told what to do.

The alpha male in town. Yeah, yeah.

And here you come barking all these orders. No meth. Get your ass up and work out.

So I think the way it worked is because they beat each other up. Other than the no fighting each other, none of that other stuff came overnight. So it wasn't like I'm coming in and just trying to change everybody's culture, right? The fighting thing to me—

but you have to change their culture because now it's Mongol culture.

Exactly. But those, those were rules I instituted as a Mongol. So initially we worked our way up to those things, right? And like I said, at one point I said, okay, no drugs. I found out that didn't fly. No meth. People resonated with that. They understood why. They got behind the mission. Working out, it was a vote. I can't just say, hey, everyone's got to work out. But I could persuade and talk and have a voice and then everyone votes. Well, if you voted, now you're into it. Everyone's doing it. So it's like I did this in steps, right? But as far as the no fighting thing, so like in the skinhead gang, if you were late to a meeting, you got beat up. If a guy was mad at you, you went to the backyard and you fought. And there used to be, you know, they had this adage of, oh, two brothers can fight, we can share a beer after. But what I saw firsthand, especially now being a therapist, everything else is the ego and everything else that goes into this. Sure, we might shake hands, but all of a sudden the guy that beat me up calls and asks for backup.

I'll show up, but I might move a little slower. Or, hey, we're having a vote, you think it's going to go your way? If you know what I'm saying. There's always the guy that got beat up, that's, it wasn't fair, he put his thumb in my eye, you know, whatever, right? There's always, sure, we're brothers, but I saw how much it undermined the brotherhood. And so in order to have these rules and enforce them, you have to explain to them why we have these rules, why we— this isn't acceptable. And I think the other piece too, like in Oregon, We started as one chapter. Those two guys moved— two of the guys from our chapter moved to Portland. They start— so we were like branching off from each other. So we weren't Eugene and Portland chapter, we were Oregon Mongols. So we ran as a unit. So we didn't have this internal beef. We're in California, you know, the gang culture, neighborhood culture, uh, this chapter thinks they're better than that chapter. And there's this— there still weren't fighting, but there was these internal beefs. And, and it would take strong leadership, you know. When Little Dave was at National P, if one chapter If we found out that one chapter was talking shit, we'd make them sit down and talk about it, work it out, or get involved.

And, you know, discipline would be— instead of— you can't discipline people with violence, so you can find them money, hit them at the pocketbook. If you really get in trouble, you have to re-prospect for the club, you know? So to tell a 10-year member that if he does this, he has to go back to prospecting, he's probably not going to do it, right? So it really came down to leadership. Strong leadership can enforce any of those rules.

I mean, strong leaders— to have strong leadership, you have to obtain a massive amount of respect. How did you do that?

I think just being—

I mean, you're dealing with a bunch of guys that I'm sure fucking can't stand authority either.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Orders at them. Is it what, 20— what, year old?

Yeah, 27 at the time when I first started doing it. And I think the piece with that was to get them all bought in on it, right? To understand the program and why we have a leader. I didn't just start out saying, hey, I'm the boss and you're going to do this. I would have got my ass kicked and sent down the road. So, you know, explaining what the rule— why we have these rules. And then, like you said, the building that bond through the violence. You know, now, oh man, I saw, I saw how he reacted in a situation or how he maintained his cool. Oh, I get why he's in this leadership. Now they respect you and they're listening to you. So I was always a lead from the front guy. And in fact, to a fault where I'm the one that ended up in jail when I first, you know, 6 months in. Because I would never ask a guy to do something I wouldn't do. And I wouldn't be like, in the back, and, all right, you guys got to go fight these dudes. Like, I went through that, that skin and sinew.

That's one of the reasons I left. And so I think, you know, also got respect because I was practicing what I preached and the rules were consistent for everyone. Like, I had to follow the same rules. I couldn't, you know, I wasn't doing meth and telling you you couldn't. So just, I guess, the personal pieces. This is where the brotherhood comes in the most, because if you love your brother, you're going to support your brother and you respect the program. You're gonna follow the rules because it's what's not what's best for you, it's what's best for the group, the greater good. And it really weeds out those selfish personalities, or like you said, the super strong, like, fuck rules, fuck authority. If you don't like rules and authority, you're not gonna be in a motorcycle club, I promise you that, because there's more rules there than there is anywhere else.

Makes sense, makes sense.

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Yeah, no, well, kind of what my mindset on it was, the mission initially was the brotherhood, riding bikes, traveling, being a part of something. And then I feel like it gets lost when it turns into the violence, the defending yourself, the ego, the just getting wrapped up in that world, you know. And I think the mission gets lost to that extent. I mean, the brotherhood hopefully is there and stays there. But as far as like, hey, the good times on bikes, it all, uh, I mean, we still have a lot of fun. We had talked about the parties and stuff, but, you know, it kind of gets swallowed up by this, uh, constant, essentially being at war, right? Like, the Mongols have been at war since 1969 with the Hells Angels. And then as we started up in other states, now we're at, you know, Gypsy Joker said we can't get there. Or when I moved to the Midwest, the Galloping Goose said we can't be there. And then moved to Illinois, the Outlaws said we can't be there. So it's this constant state of of somebody else telling you what you can't do. And then, you know, by then, after you start building the reputation or the name, or you're in, you're like, who the hell's gonna tell me what I can't do?

Yeah.

And so I think we get further and further away from the initial goal of hanging out with the boys, riding bikes, and having good times.

Yeah. You admit— did you just say the Hells Angels and the Mongols have been at war since 1969?

Uh, well, yeah, so I misspoken the date. So the Mongols started in 1969. It was the mid-'70s since the Hells Angels/Mongols War first started, and then it has continued on back and forth since. I mean, I know to this day, to this day, I have at least 3 close friends I know in the club that were murdered by Hells Angels. I have a close friend that is in prison for life for killing a Hells Angel. You know, it's something that, that started back then and has continued. There would be lulls, there'd be times where there was a little bit of peace here and there, but then it always kicks back off.

How did it start?

So that's a good one because I don't think publicly not a lot of people know the story. You know, what a lot of us were told going into it is that the Hells Angels told the Mongols they couldn't wear a bottom rocker that said California. They said that they were the only club that could claim California and we weren't allowed to. And although that did happen a little later on, Turns out that's not quite what instigated it. And, you know, we talked a little bit earlier about how the public perception was Angels wouldn't let the Mongols join because they were Hispanic. But there were— we already talked about how that wasn't true. And there really was no beef between the two clubs. The Mongols back then were a small, pretty small club, and the Angels were much larger. And from what I've been told from some of the old school dudes is their paths didn't cross a lot early on, or occasionally they would party, you know, see each other at bars and stuff.

Stuff.

But, um, I want to say it was in the mid-'70s. There was a famous Hells Angel up in Northern California, George Wagers—

Wagers—

Wedren. I don't know. Anyways, George from the Hells Angels, NorCal Hells Angels. And the story goes, he had— there was two people that were visiting the Hells Angels up there, and the Hells Angels were partying with them, and then they dosed these guys with acid.

You know, they got—

they were on LSD, they were getting crazy, and the Angels ended up killing them. And they threw their bodies in— George had this big ranch and they threw the bodies in the well of this ranch. Well, this investigation comes out, George testifies, and there was another member, um, Bud— well, no, it was Bud's brother, um, who had testified as well. So this was active Hells Angels that had testified about this murder trial. So the guy that had testified, he moves, he leaves the Hells Angels, and he moves to Southern California. And, you know, this is pre-internet, right? So the information doesn't travel as fast. You can't be like, hey, here's, here's so-and-so's paperwork, everyone knows. Um, you know, he moved far enough away that I don't know who knew where he was or what. Um, but he moved in with his brother Bud, and then they, the two of them started— Chester Green was his name. So Chester was the Hells Angel that turned informant and moved to Southern California, moved in with his brother Bud. Him and Bud had started their own club, and that club didn't get absorbed by the Mongols. So now Chester and Bud are Mongols.

On the other side, there's Keith Ball, who is a—

worked for Easy Rider magazine, writer for Easy Rider magazine, well-known Hells Angel in like that George Christie era early on. Um, his wife and his son— his wife leaves and she starts dating Bud. So essentially, the son Frank, who's a good friend of mine, Frank Ball, It's, for lack of better terms, this is dad and stepdad, right? Dad's a Hells Angel, stepdad's Mongol. So we all hear about, or people that know the history often hear about, there was a big swap meet where the Angels and Mongols clashed for the first time and got in a fight. But what earlier was transcribed, or what used to be told, was that the Mongols— there was more Mongols than Angels, which I still believe is true, but that Mongols were just being cocky and arrogant and one of the members of the Angels was mad at it and said, "Fuck this," and punched him. But the more the truth comes out, the more we've dug into the story. Bud recently passed away, and since he passed away, a lot of these family secrets are coming out. Frank's getting out, starting to tell his story like he's been on my podcast and some other ones are just mine.

And then George Christie's been talking about it a little bit.

So people are just starting to hear this actual story.

Where Bud, who is now a Mongol, right, and then Frank's dad Keith, they see each other at this swap meet and Keith punches Bud. They get into a fight. Mongols start fighting Angels. Everyone's hitting each other with motorcycle parts and sprockets.

So it's this big fight, right?

After this fight, as George Christie would say, they will go back to their clubhouse and the Hells Angels, who were this big dominant, you know, wild club back then, are like, who the eff are these guys? Who's— we have to make an example out of these guys. They think they can just stand up and attack us. Like, and essentially, if you think about it from a strategic standpoint, if they let some small club get away with it, who else— everyone else are going to start challenging them too, right? So they thought they need to make this big statement. And so two Mongols, Redbeard and Jingles, who actually both had their wives in the back, were riding back from Los Angeles to San Diego in another time, and they were machine gunned off their bikes and killed.

With their wives on the back.

Yeah, I believe one of the wives died and the other one was paralyzed, if I remember correctly. But they were machine-gunned off their bikes and killed by Hells Angels.

A week or two later, they have their funeral and a red and white car shows up, which is the Hells Angels colors.

They leave red and white roses at the funeral and the car blows up at the funeral. So they bomb the funeral of the two Mongols that were killed. So obviously things escalate. Then there's a motorcycle shop called— it was a motorcycle shop in East Los Angeles called The Frame Up. A couple Mongols work there, and the Hells Angels—

George Christie had talked about this on some podcasts—

but the Hells Angels had brought— had a guy go in and drop off a motorcycle tire and said they needed it switched off a wheel, but there was a bomb in it. So when they took the tire off, it blew up and killed some people. So now there's this tit-for-tat going back and forth, and then Jr., who was a member of the San Diego Mongols, shot and killed Ray Pilz, who was a Hells Angel in San Diego. And ever since then, they've just been killing each other.

Shit.

And, you know, there's— I feel like when this violence and stuff happens, both sides always feel justified, right?

Both sides are—

they're the ones that are getting— they're the victims. They're getting bullied. These people tell us we can't do— so the Mongols are feeling, hey, the Angels are trying to tell us we can and can't do this. And the Angels are saying, oh, these guys are trying— there's too many of them, they're being cocky. And, you know, everyone thinks they're doing the right thing. And then once people start dying, everyone starts standing up for themselves. When that happened, that's when the Mongols said, well, why are we— why don't we wear the California bottom rocker at this point? Because what the hell's Angels do, go to war with them?

They're already at war, right?

And so then they ended up switching over to the— to their bottom rocker reading California, where before it was like Long Beach or you know, whatever, San Diego or whatever the city was.

Damn.

And it's been going on since then. You know, I've had, um, Little PK was a close friend of mine. He was pretty close to my age, and, um, he, he had shot a Hells Angel in Northern California, and that Hells Angel survived. And I think less than a year later, he just disappeared without a trace. He was a heavyset dude, was riding a big full dresser motorcycle, which has never been found. He left the party, told some guys he was gonna go meet up some girl and, uh, a couple months later he was found in the mountains of the Santa Cruz— down in the hills of the Santa Cruz Mountains, and he was half-burdened, had a bullet in his head.

Shit.

Um, my brother Rambler, who was a very close friend of mine, he was— we had both been Mongol— well, I was a Mongol in San Diego when he was hanging around. He ended up joining San Diego, but I'd moved back to Oregon. He was up there visiting for work, and in Oregon by now things were pretty chill with all the other clubs, so we wore our patches everywhere. I mean, we still had our program, but it was pretty relaxed. In fact, he said, this is like Disneyland up here. We can just go to the strip clubs or we can go to the bars, you know, because in San Diego, if we wanted to go to a bar, you had to— you could only stay for about 30 minutes, couldn't drink.

You had to have a chase truck.

You had to have X amount of members. Like, in Oregon, I mean, we still try to run off those rules, but in general, in Oregon, you could let your guard down.

And he was visiting, so he, he would walk to the strip club over here.

And so he was getting ready to move home. Or he was getting ready to move Portland, so he went to San Diego. He bought a truck from one of the brothers. He drove it to San Diego. He was loading it up with stuff. The night before he was moving home, he went out to a bar with his old lady in San Diego. Um, two Hells Angels approach him. They kind of shove each other. Rambler decides he's going to leave. He gets on his bike, leaves, pulls over to a taco place with his wife to get some food. The Hells Angels had followed him. Comes out of the taco place, they stab him in the throat, armpit, and groin, and he bleeds out right there and dies.

Shit. Did you ever have any run-ins?

Yeah, but I mean, nothing— obviously not to that level. But, you know, I had a tattoo. I've since covered it up. But after Rambler— after Rambler got killed, I got a tattoo of the Hells Angels center patch, but it was hanging from a noose with X'd out eyes and a tongue hanging out and said FTHA, blood dripping off of it.

Wow.

That caused some controversy. But that's— that's where our mindset was. And that's the problem with this war is, A, no one knows why it started, but B, once you're in long enough, you don't care because both sides, right, both sides lose members and now they're the enemy. And, you know, people are dying and going to prison and most people don't even know why. So it's, it's been a— it's after leaving the club and getting to know Mel and some other former Hells Angels, my co-host for Patched, Jason, he was a former Hells Angel. Um, you know, that kind of initial goal we had was we wanted to show that everyone in this life and those major clubs how much we all have in common. You know, like for me, you know, I joined the Mongols because I knew a Mongol. All my friends that were in like the hardcore crew FSU in Boston, they joined the Outlaws, and then some of them later joined the Mongols. And then the Northern California skinhead and hardcore crews, they joined the Hells Angels because it was what was there in their region or who they knew. It wasn't we chose one because we hate the other, right?

We all came from the same thing and we were the same people that just wore a different name. And then it turns into people killing each other. And so, you know, getting into that, why did it really happen piece and then trying to explain how much we have in common. And I don't even know if that'll help at this point because, I mean, you've got to think that's years and years of war.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, how long did it take you to get over it? And start talking to Hells Angels? I mean, you co-host a fucking podcast with one.

Yeah. And, you know, so Little Dave, the former national president of Mongols, had introduced me to Jason, that former Hells Angel, and he had read my book and really liked, you know, kind of my philosophy on things. And he was like, hey dude, let's do something where we can try and help. Let's try and— the initial goal of that podcast was to show all the similarities. It kind of transformed into more of a mental health podcast on what it's like when you leave and refinding identity and purpose. But it started as this, like, trying to show peace. And so initially, it was really— mentally, it was really hard, man. You know, like, the first time I met Jason, which was the first time I met any Hells Angel, ex-former Hells Angel, in person, we were at a motorcycle rally in North Carolina called the Smokeout. So I was riding up from Savannah. So it was, you know, a 6-hour ride or something. And He's giving me address to this Airbnb. He's going to be there with like 2 or 3 other former Hells Angels. And then a guy I met, my friend Lauren, from a company called Street Syndicate.

He used to be a Hells Angel and he was going to meet us there. So I'm riding up there at first, happy to meet these my new friends. We've been talking and all of a sudden the sun's going down and I'm used— I mean, I'm riding and I next thing I know I'm in this country and I'm riding down this gravel road to this dark house and I go, fuck, dude, you think they're playing the long game? Like, am I going to walk in and there's plastic on the floor? But, you know, conversation was a little guarded at first. And just the trigger of seeing, like, some of them still had their club logos or tattoos. And just seeing that death head even was like, it was hard. Mentally, it was tough, man. But the more we talked, the more we saw in common, we had in common. And then hearing the other sides of stories where we were both at, you know, like there was a moment where Lauren's like, oh shit, that was you. Or, you know what I mean? Things like that. Where it was like we were both there for the same things and had different perspectives.

And I think—

can you go into one of those?

Um, yeah, yeah. The one he was talking about is we— I had helped start a chapter of Mongols in Spokane, and the Hells Angels were really strong there. But at the time, most of them were in prison for a racketeering case and murder case, so there wasn't very many left. And the ones I started came from that hardcore crew, FSU, and a lot of these dudes in MMA and jiu-jitsu.

So they were tough dudes.

And I knew we'd be able to hold it down. But once we opened up there, obviously there was gonna— there was pushback. And that guy Junior I talked about, he had come back to the club and he was like a— kind of oversaw our area at the time. And, uh, he had called and he said, hey, the Angels, they have a bunch of guys coming from out of town. They just had this run-in with the Mongols last night. We need you to send everybody up there. And at the time, I'm on You know, I was on non-association probation because I just got out of jail a few months before that, and I wasn't allowed to affiliate with the club or leave the state. But again, I've always been a lead from the front guy. So I said, all right, so if I'm going to call and tell everyone they got to go up there, we're all going. So we go up there and we get— I think I left in the middle of the night. We get up there early in the day and more and more guys from, you know, Idaho is coming, Oregon, and everyone's like, what's the plan?

What's the plan? I keep going, we got to wait for Junior, you know. So finally I called Junior just for chain of command, and finally I called Junior and he goes, I can't show up there, man. There's too many cops. And, uh, that was my first falling out with that guy. But, um, from that, so like, okay, well then I guess this, I guess we're putting this together. So we had developed a meetup spot and essentially the goal was we were just all going to go out and fly the patch and make a presence. And if they wanted to come get it, they could, but we were going to show them that A, we had support, that we could show backup with the swiftness and that we all stuck together. And, uh, we were at one of the guys owns a tattoo shop up there and we were at this tattoo shop, just kind of killing time, waiting for more people to show up. And the FBI was outside driving around and stuff. And remind you, I can't leave the state. I'm supposed to be there. So I'm down in the basement of this tattoo shop getting ready to get tattooed, and the prospect comes running down the stairs and he goes, Mooch, Mooch, we got to get you out of here.

The FBI is in here and they know you're here. And I'm like, fuck, dude, I'm going back to jail. Well, my twin brother had just had a baby, so he didn't come with us, and he's in the club. So I called my twin brother. I guess they said, yeah, well, we know Jeremy's down there. Which is my brother's name. So I call my brother, I go, don't answer your phone, don't go outside if anyone asks, you're in Spokane. And when the sun got down, I got out of there. But there was a standoff at one point where we went to one bar and all the Angels were at the bar across the street, and there was like cops in the middle, and we were all on the sidewalk and having this big stare down. And it turned out Lauren from Street Syndicate, he was standing on the other side of that road. So we were like, we're telling a story, and I was like, he was like, you were there for that?

I was like, yeah, I was there for that.

Or there was a The one that he got upset about is there's a former Hells Angel had left the club. He was the national secretary. So he had this spreadsheet that had every Hells Angels chapter address and members' names and phone numbers on it. And fuck it, I shouldn't say it on the air, but whatever. It's nothing illegal. But I had this app where you can text people from other people's phone numbers and there was a time, it was during Sturgis, and we were— that was with the St. Louis chapter of the Mongols, and we were riding into St. Louis to go to some bars. We were coming from Alton, Illinois, and we're riding into St. Louis, and as we're coming down the highway, there's Hell's Angels. Fast Eddie's. Hey, yeah, that's where we were coming from, was that Fast Eddie's area.

Yeah, absolutely.

That was a bar we went to a lot. But we were heading into— we were gonna go to Shady Jack's in St. Louis, sort of. Actually, no, we were going up to Soulard area. But anyways, We were going down the interstate, or is it the highway? And all of a sudden this Hells Angel goes flying past us by himself. And I've got 9 guys with me and then a chase, you know, we had a crew called the Wrecking Crew, which is like our support club that didn't ride. Security guys, they're behind us. And I remember watching them and thinking, fuck, man. And I go, whatever, I do this.

The whole pack whips a bitch.

We start chasing this guy and we're probably doing buck 10, you know, 105 miles an hour at least. And this guy, he's flying. He's looking in his mirrors and he pulls into this gas station and he was far enough ahead that I could see him do it. But like, we weren't right there. And I remember thinking, well, I mean, that's smart, somewhere public at least, you know. Well, we pull in the gas station, everyone's all hot, ready to roll, and we can't find him. So everyone's kind of— they're all on bikes still, so everyone's weaving in and out trying to look around for him. And as I call it to leave, we're pulling this U-turn, and I look in, there was like a trailer park right there, and I look down and I see this Hells Angel, he's like peeking out from behind his mobile home. It's like, all right, well, there he is. So we pull into the trailer park, but we most of us had stopped because it's the Midwest. I ain't rolling up someone's front door unless I'm gonna get ready to get shot, right?

So we stopped.

And one of the members that was actually from Kansas City, um, he had something to prove because he was the older guy that was just kind of got in trouble at the church, at church, for like not following through with shit or, you know, just kind of being soft. And so he wanted to prove something. So he comes rolling up, he jumps off his bike, he starts walking, walking up a hard end, and he freezes. And when the guy says, why is he freezing? I go, the other dude must have a gun. And then all of a sudden the Kansas City guy starts backpedaling. And one of the Mongols goes, does he think he's the only one? I'm like, whoa, dude, it's like 3 in the afternoon at this trailer park. So this Hells Angel comes out and he's got a pistol on his waist, but he's holding an iPad and he kept yelling, call 911, call 911. And obviously I was like, all right, dude, this dude ain't going to do shit. He's in the right. If we go jump him or whatever, the cops are going to come.

So I said, let's wrap it up and get out of here.

Well, the more I was thinking about it, kind of like I had said before about the low risk, high reward, I was like, this situation, I kind of fuck with these dudes.

So I got off that list.

I got a number from a San Fernando Valley Hells Angel, and I started texting this Hells Angel whose house we were at, convincing him I was another Hells Angel. And I said, hey brother, we're in possession of this video of a bunch of Mongols in front of your house and you're yelling, call 911. And he's like, brother, brother, that's not how it happened. That's not quite how it happened.

I said, well, I'll tell you what, we're going to have an officers meeting.

And I'm just guessing at this point, we're going to have this officers meeting this weekend. So in the meantime, while you put all your club property in a box, we're going to come out there and decide if you can still be in this club. And for 2 days, he's texting me and blowing me up, like trying to stay in. Brother, it's not like that. Until he figured out it wasn't, you know, eventually. So I guess they had to have like 2 or 3 officer meetings about it because I was doing that. And then there was a a dude, Beau, from Outlaw Archives, where he like collects old Hells Angels memorabilia and like preserves the history of it. And a lot of the new members don't like him. So every now and again he was sending text messages, messaging with and messing with them. And this national organization had this whole like West Coast meeting about not, not answering texts unless you know for sure who it is or answering the phone. And so Lauren was like pissed that he had to keep going to these meetings. So when I told that story, he goes, that was you, dude.

You're the reason I had to keep going to this meeting.

Damn wild, wild.

Yeah, my wife said I was a nerd because there was another time where they were hosting a fight night in St. Louis, the Angels and the Galloping Goose, or the Foresteros, like they were doing it together. So I was texting the Angels from a Foresteros number, been like, you guys need to step up security, this shit's soft, you're not— and then I was doing it back to them, just trying to stir the pot. So I'm just sitting there giggling on my phone like an idiot. My wife's like, what is wrong with you?

Wow.

How long have you been married?

We've been together 10 years, been married for 5.

How'd you meet?

She was working at a bar that we had stopped in and we had rolled in there. It was really kind of funny because she's not— she's 10 years younger than me. She's not from that life at all. And someone at the bar said, a bunch of Mongols are coming in here. And she goes, Mongoloids?

What?

Who's coming in here?

Mongoloids?

And then Most of us, like I said, we were sober at the time. We're not drinking. So we walked in and we all ordered Mountain Dews or something. She's like, all these tough guys and they came in and ordered Mountain Dew. And then we went back there another time. And when I do drink, I like fruity drinks because I don't give a shit. Tastes good. I don't like taste alcohol. If it comes in a fruit or got an umbrella, I'm in, right? So I walk in and I order a Mai Tai and apparently that she either didn't know how to make it at the time or didn't have the ingredients for it. So it was the worst Mai Tai I ever had in my life. But she was still in a relationship and we didn't even talk then. But she found me on social media and sent me a friend's request. So maybe 2 months later, it's right after New Year's, she liked a picture and I was like, who's this chick liking my photo? So I sent her a message and of course she made me wait 24 hours to show me what time it was.

And then we met up and started hanging out and that was it, man.

Right on.

She was— not to sound cheesy, but this is the facts— is so I was engaged a year before that, and we split up over mainly because like a month before our wedding, I was in Thailand doing stuff with the club. And when I came home—

Wait, what?

So I had helped start the Australian Mongols and the Mongols in Australia can't come here and I can't go there. So we would meet in Thailand for meetings.

So it's like, why can't you go there and they can't come here?

Well, I couldn't go there at the time because my criminal record, I was a felon. But also, if you're a known member of a motorcycle club, Australia has crazy motorcycle club laws. A lot of the states you can't even wear a patch or have club tattoos. So immigration on both sides, they won't let you in.

Gotcha.

And so Thailand we could because you don't need visas to visit, you know. And it was also was like Mongols had just started in Thailand. So it was our chance like from leadership to go out there and meet the Thai guys. And so I spent 10 days in Thailand and the club had paid for me to go because I was doing this meeting and they paid for the flight. But still, it's Thailand. Everything else is pretty cheap. And they'd offered to bring her. So I was like, "Babe, we're going to go to Thailand." And she was all against it, which should have been a pretty big red flag because when I came, the minute I landed in Thailand, I got this Dear John text about how things weren't working out. And I was spending— we're supposed to be saving for a wedding and I'm spending money on motorcycle parts. But it really came down to she wanted to have a kid and I don't. So I come back to an empty house and I spent a full year just being single. I mean, I was doing a Tinder thing and meeting chicks, but It's something I talk to my clients about a lot too, is I don't feel like you can be happy in a good relationship until you can be happy alone.

Because so many people get codependent with others and they'll put up with bullshit or bad relationships because they're just the fear of being alone, right? And so I spent alone time, like I was dating, I was going out and hanging out with girls and stuff. But if there was any sort of red flag, I just moved on.

Like, why get serious?

I was to the point where I was cool with what I was doing. So I really wasn't looking for anything serious when I met her. And she just gotten out of a relationship. But when her and I started getting close, it was like this light— I was like, this makes sense on why my other relationships didn't work out. Like, everything just fit into place so well, like the way we thought and morals, values. There's so many things that were so similar. There was no jealousy or possessiveness or arguing, fighting.

And I was just like, this is how it lays— like, this is how it's supposed to be.

And I wouldn't have known until I had it, but I wasn't going to let that go, so I put a ring on it.

Do you still not want kids?

Yeah, correct.

Why not?

Just, I'm honest with myself, man. I'm selfish with my time.

I like to be able to pack up and go when I want.

You know, I work with kids. I have amazing niece and nephew. I've got a sister that's 22. But as far as like the responsibility of children and the financial burden of children at this point, you know, we rescue dogs. I used to foster English Bulldogs, so I've just always kind of been more of a dog guy. And I love kids and, you know, people people say all the time, oh, you'd be a great dad, or, oh, your life would change, or you'll see it. And I don't doubt that, but I also am very honest with myself that it's not something I want. And so, um, you know, I'm 45 now, so I definitely don't want to start doing it now. And, and so that was something when her and I were getting serious, I wanted to make sure we were on the same page with.

Right on, right on.

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How the hell did you wind up in the Midwest?

So I had—

are we missing anything in Oregon before we go to the Midwest?

Me going to jail, my trial, my case.

Well, that would be a pretty big thing.

Yeah.

Yeah. So been in the club for about 6 months. There was this party in Eugene for the club, the Free Souls, and there was like their—

every chapter of the state was there. And then all the outsiders, Gypsy Jokers, Brother Speed, all the clubs were there together.

And they were going to make this big presence to like essentially show them all, we couldn't be here. And I didn't want to do this. I wanted to show them that we were serious and we weren't going to cower down. So we took all 6 of us, plus we had some guys come up from Nevada and stuff. I think there was maybe 10 or 12 of us. And we just started going to all the bars they go to. Like, I knew where they were at. I had eyes on their clubhouse. I knew who was out and about. So we weren't putting ourselves in too bad of a spot, but we made sure to go make our presence in all of their bars around town, not to necessarily stir the pot. I mean, to some extent, but mainly to show like, hey, we're still going to do what we're going to do. And we had just checked back in at the hotel and 3 of the guys that were in this group of 12 turned out to be informants. So it made sense. We were getting followed by the ATF. And this ATF agent was the first time I'd ever That's the first time I ever saw an ATF.

In my mind from TV, you know, these guys are all military looking, in shape. And this dude looked like Grimace from McDonald's wearing New Balances that were all flattened out on the sides. And he came walking up and he had let me know or informed us that there had been a car that had gotten pulled over that had a president of the Gypsy Jokers, president of Free Souls, and president of Brother Speed, and the president of the Outsiders in it. And they had a trunk with guns in it and they said they're out mongol hunting. That's what they told us. So they had to they had a duty to warn. So they asked us to stay at the hotel, just don't go out. And the informants were dead set on not going out.

They were scared.

I mean, obviously we didn't know they're informants, but now it made sense.

But we said, fuck it, dude.

Plus, this may sound silly, but the fact of it is too, is A, we were all going to go do it, but now we have— there's cops following us, federal agent. Like, the risk goes down pretty pretty much after that, right? I'm not saying that someone wouldn't still do something. It wasn't a shield, but it wasn't as threatening as if, you know, we were out there by ourselves in the middle of nowhere and these guys were coming to get us. So I didn't want to cower down. So we went out there and nothing really came of it. And a couple of weeks later, this front page— back when the newspaper was a thing, the front page of the Sunday newspaper was Biker War Comes to Oregon. Police fear violence as motorcycle mongols roll into town. And it's this huge, like, it was a multiple-page article about how the Gypsy Jokers were going to go to war with the Muggles and how the Gypsy Jokers have a rule that there can be no clubs with black and white colors in their state. And then they started talking about some of the different violences that happened with it, not between the two clubs, but, you know, what they had done over the years.

So we're all on high alert, right? We're, I mean, especially now it's in the paper. And my parents, like I said before, they, they own like 100 I always forget. I think it's 120 acres, but they live in this big, big property and they have a big house at the top of the hill. And then there's a little house at the bottom where we used to live before they built a big one. And my brother lived there, so I was staying with my brother and I'm getting ready to leave. I was going up to Portland and I was in my brother's pickup truck. And mind you, I'm a felon and I'm on probation, so I can't carry a weapon, you know, I can't have a firearm or anything. And I'm coming down their driveway. It's a quarter-mile driveway and there's 4 no trespassing signs coming up. But every now and again, sometimes someone gets lost and turns around. So I'm coming down the driveway and here comes an all blacked out SUV with Washington plates, Ford Explorer, start coming towards me. And when it sees me, it stops. I mean, it stops at a distance where I could see an outline of two people, but couldn't see like who they were, what they looked like.

And so, hey, you know, I stopped too. And I'm sitting here thinking, okay, I don't have a weapon, so I don't want to run up on them, but I do want to know who they are. So I'm just kind of waiting, thinking, trying to tell myself, okay, maybe it's someone that's lost and they kind of do this weird turn, you know, they had to do like 12-point turn to turn around in there. And, but as they're going down the road, they keep looking back at me and I remember thinking, maybe I scared them if they're lost. And so we come to the end of the driveway and I was going to go north, which would have been left. And they turned right. And I remember I had this internal dialogue that I'll never forget this. I decided to turn right. And I remember saying, is this one of those moments you're going to look back on and say, I wish you would turn left. And I turned right. And I followed them for about 10 miles through like country road. But every time I followed them, they wouldn't let me get close to them. So it was more alarm flags were going up.

And then we come back to the interstate and now we're at the interstate. Now they go north. So now my— like, now I'm definitely thinking something's off because they would have gone north from the driveway, right? So they're kind of doing a circle. So now we're on the interstate and as soon as they get on the interstate, they gun it. They're going in and out of traffic. So I'm like, fuck, it's on. So I'm chasing them. We get to north, the north part of Salem, and they take the exit and they drive to the Gypsy Joker's Clubhouse. And in order to do that, you have to go through a couple neighborhoods and a cul-de-sac. So it's not by chance that they go there, right?

Yeah.

I didn't want to follow them down these neighborhood roads, so I park at a gas station across the street that had eyes on them. So they pull in front of the Gypsy Joker Clubhouse, but they wouldn't get out of the car. And I'm thinking, okay, this is all sketchy, right? The passenger side window rolls down and a finger comes out and does this to me from across the street. So now I say, okay, this is the enemy, right?

So I call my brother and the guy, little Zach, that I talked about earlier from high school.

And I say, hey, here's what's going on.

Where are you guys at?

You want to meet me somewhere in this area? So at least maybe you got— they don't know what you guys are driving. Maybe you guys can get next to them. At least we just want to see who they are. So as I'm talking to him, they get back on the interstate, but now they're going back south again. So I'm worried maybe they're going back to my house. They know that I'm not there. So I get back behind them. And for a while, I don't think they realized I was still following them. But when they did, they start speeding up. I followed them for 60 miles after this. So this is like now we're already an hour and a half into this. And as we're going into the city of Eugene, we had a chapter there. So I call some of the Eugene guys and I said, hey, told them what's going on. I said, why not? There's two different groups I call.

I said, why don't you guys each get in a separate car?

Meet me off the freeway and I'll call you when we come close. And I want you to jump on, like merge in, but they don't know who your guys' cars are. So get a good look at them or at least be with me if they pull over for gas. So we're following them and it gets to the point where I just said, fuck it, dude, let's just kind of slow them. Let's box them in. So I get up behind them. Someone gets next to them. I get in front of them. And as soon as we do that, they slam on their brakes. So the guy in this car, swerved slightly, and it was enough where they went from the center lane to the fast lane. And as soon as they did that, they hit a siren. I was so locked in the moment that I started looking around when I heard the siren, because I was, these are enemies, you know. And then they went from the fast lane, they jumped over 3 lanes of traffic, took the exit. And as they were doing that, one of the other guys got in front of them and slammed on his brakes, which scared them.

So when he did that, they hit their lights. And I go, fuck.

These are cops.

Holy shit.

Following a cop for an hour and a half. I got leather gloves on, two cell phones next to me. And, uh, but I started thinking, I'm like, well, I haven't done— what have I done that was illegal? You know, like, um, all I did was follow somebody. I wasn't on the cars that swerved at them, you know. So now they're following me because like they had pulled over. And so I started using my turn signals so they could see where I'm going because I know at this point I'm gonna get pulled over. And I pull into the nearest parking lot. And they pull in and they pull around and they face me, but they wouldn't get out of their car. I'm already thinking it looked, you know, now it's, I'm like, damn, I'm stupid. I think that's the car that that ATF agent had when they came up to us in Eugene. I wonder if this is that ATF agent. But I was also thinking that when he came up to us in Eugene, he even said, I have your number. So in my head, I was like, well, he could have called, you know what I mean?

Like, yeah.

So I was like, I don't, I don't see I did anything wrong. And I look in my mirror and there's like 30 cops around me, guns out. Get out of the car.

Get out of the car.

I'm like, fuck, dude, I thought for sure I'm gonna get shot or beat up. So they pull me out of the car, handcuff me. I'm standing next to the car, and I only know this now from trial, from the discovery, but you know that the car is recording, and the cop tells that ATF agent. So he gets out, he starts walking up to me, and the cop says, hey, we're recording. So he turns the radio up, and when he walks up to me, he was like telling me they were playing a game of cat and mouse. It was funny. They were going to see how long it would take till I ran out of gas. He even said, I don't— you didn't do anything wrong. We're going to cut you loose. My— I had called my aunt and— because she lived in town. And my brother and Zach, who had been following me, they were across the street. And the cops never knew that they were following him. So they were recording it with the camcorder. And I was looking over at Quiz and I was thinking, hell yeah, dude, I'm gonna go get some lunch.

I'm hungry when I get out of here. Next thing you know, I'm in the back of a cop car. I got police motorcycles in front and behind this cop car like some presidential fucking thing. And they take me to jail. So I sit in holding while they round up the other two guys. And because now again, there was an informant that was involved, so he had told everyone who was involved. And normally in this case, you're supposed to lawyer up, right? Like, I mean, even cops lawyer up at this point. But because I didn't think it was a risk, I didn't think I was risking any serious charges. I wanted them to be on tape admitting that it was a game of cat and mouse. What were they doing? And I had questions too. Like, why don't you identify yourself? What were you doing? So I said, yeah, I'll do the interrogation. And in the interrogation they said this was a game of cat and mouse. We were just out there to see if we can find out where you lived and you caught us.

Hahaha. So why'd you go to the Gypsy Joker Clubhouse?

Like, oh, it was convenience or it was, it was a mistake. And they were making these jokes. They were like, I had it all on tape. So we're getting ready to— they now they say, okay, well, we're going to go book you. And I said, for what? And they said, we haven't figured it out yet, but I think attempted assault. And at this time, the jails were overcrowded. There was no funding due to this timber law budget, that federal timber thing budget that was going on. So they weren't holding people.

So I was like, whatever, dude, I'll be out in the morning.

So I go to jail in the morning, I go down to my arraignment, and instead of bringing me in with everyone else, I'm sitting in a single cell by myself. And I see my co-defendants walk by and they're like pale white, looking at a piece of paper. I'm like, fuck, this can't be good. And then slide my indictment over the door and they indicted me on conspiracy to commit kidnapping, attempted kidnapping, unlawful use of a weapon, conspiracy to commit— there was like 8 felonies. And the kidnapping was because they moved in a direct— they moved from the center lane to the fast lane in a direction they didn't want to go.

Yeah, right.

$14 million bail. And then I had a bail reduction where I went down to $1.4 million.

So I— $14 million bail.

Front page of every paper. Mongol leader tries to run cops off the road. One of the jail guards would let me out and watch myself on a TV at night in the nightly news.. And I was, because I was a high-profile inmate, I was in the 23.5-hour day single-cell lockdown for the 2 months I was there. And every time I violated, went back, it was the same.

So I take it to trial.

It's like a week and a half trial. This ATF agent, I always knew that everyone knows that cops will lie, but I never thought they would blatantly lie, right? I couldn't, it didn't make sense. This ATF agent's on the stand and he says, He's talking about when he came up to talk to me and he goes, I was screaming at him because I was in fear for my life. I said, what were you doing? We had our guns out and like, try to make it like this whole thing that wasn't, you know, and my whole entire— I was like, oh, when the interrogation tape comes out, I have them saying this and this. They fought and somehow got the interrogation tape out. They weren't allowed to introduce it as evidence.

Holy shit.

The judge was against me. Like, I don't want to sound like I'm a victim because I did chase these dudes, but the system was fucked. Thankfully, my family helped me with a very expensive attorney and I won. You know, cost us $25,000 and a lot of time. But what I did get found guilty of was reckless driving, misdemeanor, and a misdemeanor charge called menacing. The maximum for that is a year in jail and then 5 years probation. They gave me the max, a year in jail, 5 years probation.. And it was essentially felony gang probation because I had a non-association, so I wasn't allowed to affiliate with anyone from the Mongols, including my twin brother. Nightly curfews, couldn't go to bars, everything. I tried to appeal the part about not hanging out with my brother, but they didn't. And so now I go to jail, go back to jail, and I get released after a day of being sentenced. So I was there for like 2 months and a day or something because they have the sentencing guidelines, the matrix, and they're like, okay, No longer my risk. Like when I'm there for conspiracy to commit kidnapping, I'm high enough risk, right?

If I'm there for reckless driving and they need to make room, so who's going to get kicked out? So I only knew I'm getting kicked out because I look out my cell and there's this media crew everywhere, reporters, and someone goes, it's probably for you. And I'm like, yeah, right. It was. And thankfully I asked that one of the cops let me go out the back door after I was processed out.

Instead of the media exit. So I avoided that stuff.

But dude, even in trial, they did just so many crazy things. Like at one point they put the whole jail on lockdown and someone goes, watch, they're going to say this is you tomorrow at trial. I'm like, yeah, right, how? And sure as shit, they said that a motorcycle had—

Mongol had ridden by and left a suspicious package up front.

So they had to call a bomb squad and put the jail on lockdown. They had credible information that Mongols were trying to bust me out like this was some Wild West movie, dude. Like, And because they, they convinced the judge that the Mongols were trying to break me out, they allowed extra cops in my trial. So there are times where there'd be 12 armed uniformed officers in my, in my court, in my hearing. You can imagine what, how that influences the jury, right? Um, so it was an uphill battle, but I, but I won. And so I get out after road crew, everything else, I get out, and now I'm, you know, I've been a Mongol for 7 months, 8 months now. And I mean, yeah, and I'm being— and I think it was 8 months in and I'm being told I can't hang out at the club for 5 years. And so I was like, I can't do that, man.

Fuck this.

I said, I'm going to move to San Diego. And that guy that interviewed me, he was the president of that chapter. I said, I'm going to move down there to the heart of where the Mongols are. I'm going to learn to be the best Mongol I can. I go, they're not going to come. I mean, I'm going to have a probation violation. I'm going to have a warrant.

But you think they're going to extradite me on a misdemeanor warrant?

You know, so, and I moved to San Diego and joined the Mongols there. And then in October of 2008 is when that Operation Black Rain that I talked about concluded and everybody got raided. Every house in Oregon got raided.

Like, I woke up to a text, 20 texts that said, are you okay?

I was like, what was there, earthquake or something? And just like out of the movies, man, I turned on the TV and it's like Mongols Motorcycle Club national raids and are showing SWAT teams going in houses and all these Mongols in handcuffs. And I'm thinking, well, fuck, I have a warrant, peeking out the window. And I stayed up in the Yucca Valley Mountains with my aunt for another month or so, and then I drove home and turned myself in and did 2 months. And then for about that whole year, man, I'd be out for a couple months and get caught hanging out and go back for a couple months.

And every time I went back was a 23.5-hour day lockdown.

And that kind of life-changing moment for me was the last time I got went in there, one of the guards said, hey man, I lost the bet. And I go, what do you mean? You know? And he goes, I bet the other guys you wouldn't be back here because he goes, you're not like these guys. And I remember just looking around the jail, and nothing against the people that are there, but I was like, I didn't feel like I was a criminal. I was there for violating probation, but I wasn't, I wasn't a drug dealer, you know what I mean? I was like, I, you're right, I don't belong here. And I was getting really tired and burnt out of this. That was my life, in and out of jail, in and out of jail. And I was trying to think, what is something I can do as a career? You know, what can I do to break this cycle of going in and out of jail? And there was a Mongol out of Hollywood chapter named Richie Rich who had his PhD in clinical psychology. He looks like he just walked off the prison yard.

He's a big dude, blasted neck tattoo, in great shape. And he was involved in an incident with the Hells Angels and Mongols in Sturgis where a Hells Angel got stabbed. He wasn't— he didn't do it, but he was around there. So he got fired for being involved. And this dude's a clinical psychologist, right? And this is 2008. Yeah, 2008, 2009. And he goes, man, I'm having a hard time finding a job after that. He goes, I can't find anything that pays more than $100,000. He goes, everything they're offering me only pays $100,000 a year. And to me, especially back then, I was like, that's your problem? I want to have that problem. And, you know, by now I've got Mongols tattooed huge on the back of my head. I've got felony. Now I'm on probation, you know, probation. And I was like, what's a field that I can get into where I could help others, give back, because I always wanted to be a teacher, but I couldn't once I got my felony. And I said, I'm gonna start drug and alcohol counseling. So I went to school, I got my associate's degree in drug and alcohol counseling.

Then I stayed because I fell in love with psychology. I went to Whittier College in Los Angeles for a while, and then came back to Oregon, and I completed my bachelor's degree in social behavioral studies. And then in 2017, I got my master's degree in social work. And at my last last semester of graduate school, I had to do an internship. And the internship I really wanted, and the internship I interviewed for and got, was to be a counselor at the Oregon Youth Authority for the kids that were in jail. I was really excited about it. And I was getting ready to start. And they gave me— I did the interview and they said I was hired. And they gave me this information and I had to go to this address for training on these 4 days or whatever it was. So I wake up in the morning, I get dressed up, I'm all excited.

I follow the GPS.

I pull into the parking lot and it's the fucking Oregon State Police Academy. It's where everyone from the Youth Authority gets trained, even the counselors. So I end up calling my wife, or girlfriend at the time, but it's my wife. And I said, man, I know I have a little bit of ego, but maybe no one here knows who I am, right? I get out of the car and the cop stops dead in his tracks and stares at me. And now looking back, I know it was the Oregon State Chief of Police, saw me walking in. I was even told, I don't know if it's true or not, that they were teaching a class about me somewhere, you know, about the Mawas in Oregon, somewhere in those halls. So when I would get out of the class to take a leak, it was like someone farted, you know, like everyone just stopped and stared at me.

So I got pulled out of class really quick.

I got, uh, accused of infiltrating, and they thought that the, the government's perspective was that I was— I went to school for 8 years and spent $150,000 at school so that I could go recruit kids for my gang out of the Youth Authority. 15 and 16-year-olds that don't ride motorcycles, I'm going to waste all my time to do that. So they fired me. Well, I found that to be unconstitutional. I don't think it was just. I explained to them like I would explain to anyone that my history in the club and my background is what I thought would make me a good therapist for kids. And so I filed a lawsuit against the state of Oregon for early against youth authority for wrongful discrimination. And I won. But when I won, again, I won $1,001. That $1, so everyone always remembers. But, you know, it wasn't a paid internship. There was no monetary value. They paid the attorney fees and the $1,000, but it was all over the paper. And at the same time, I just fell in love with jiu-jitsu and found jiu-jitsu. I was 10 years into the club by now. I was overseeing all of the Northwest and all the out-of-state, out-of-country chapters.

I'd helped start Australia.

Like, I was— I had a lot on my plate.

You know, my—

2 years ago, my fiancée had left, and now I'm dating Ashley.

Like, you know, it's just my life had changed a lot.

And when I really, really got— right before I fell in love with jiu-jitsu, all my buddies were doing jiu-jitsu.

And so I was like, I want to do something everyone else is doing.

So I started doing Krav Maga, my first night class. And I walk in and it's pretty law enforcement heavy activity.

And so there's a lot of cops in there.

And all I could think is, hey, listen, if I'm good at martial arts and I don't like you and you come to my gym, I'm probably just going to beat you up. So I was like, worst case, they're going to kick my ass or maybe they're going to try and get to know me. But instead they went to the police union and made this big deal since I had the victims of my crime were law enforcement. And I got kicked out of the gym until I couldn't train there. So then I started training at jiu-jitsu, and I fell in love with jiu-jitsu, and I was traveling for jiu-jitsu, and I was down in Los Angeles training with, uh, Orlando Sanchez—

rest in peace, he passed away recently—

but he, he was a friend of the Mongols, and he was ADCC medalist and big, big name in jiu-jitsu. And because I was in a club, I was getting free lessons with him and training with him all the time. And at that gym, I met these guys from a team called Pedigree Submission Fighting, a small team out of Illinois. And at the time, they were a very unknown small team, but they were pumping out world champions. These guys were living at the— living on the mats. Most of them came from nothing.

They were each other's family.

And it reminded me of everything of punk rock and being in the bands and traveling, being on tour. So, you know, it just—

I was like, this is, this is awesome.

I can resonate with this.

Like, these dudes, they weren't like the high-end gym that had the money and the rich kids there.

These were all kids that were, you know, they were training for free, but they were living on the mat, but they were winning tournaments and they were kicking ass.

And I was like, man, as much as I love jiu-jitsu, I want to get into this, I'm going to train, I want to train with the best.

And at Orlando's gym, you know, I was beating a lot of these guys, you know, obviously at my like age group and stuff, but it was still a new, new blue belt or new white belt. But I'd grown up wrestling, and so I had to come advantage. Everyone on the Pedagogs Mission Fighting Team had beat my ass, dude.

And I'm talking like submitted me 6 times in one round.

And so I was like, hell yeah, that's where I want to be, you know. So I went home, I'm trying to find a job and I can't because of all this stuff that's going on the paper.

So I started talking to my wife about maybe moving out there, trying to start fresh. I'd also considered kind of stepping away from the club because there was no Mongols in the Midwest. There was 2 members in Kansas City chapter and 1 chapter in Indiana.

So essentially there was no Mongols in the Midwest. There definitely wasn't any in Oregon—

I mean, in Illinois. So I could go out there and I would still be somewhat involved in that club, but I wouldn't have to be as active, you know, kind of take a break.

I could really focus on jiu-jitsu and then getting to my field of work.

You say you, you, you haven't done much social work or therapy sessions up to this point?

No, I was in a little bit with the kids and then I'd done some internships working like advocating for the homeless community and stuff like that.

Did you like doing it?

Social work, advocating for homeless community was difficult. I'd done some drug and alcohol counseling, which I ended up down the road not caring for because a lot of my guys were court ordered and didn't want change. But it wasn't until I got to Illinois that I really just started doing like traditional mental health therapy. Come sit on my couch, talk. And then I was doing perpetrators domestic violence counseling, which I fell in love with.

That was really cool.

But my wife was about to start Oregon State University for her master's degree in dietetics and nutrition. And as it turned out, SIU had a dietetics nutrition program and it's right by where I wanted to move.

So we decided we were together 2 years. I can't believe I talked her into picking up and moving across the—

or 1 year. And we picked up and moved across the country, packed the dogs and stuff in 2 cars and drove out there, sight unseen, and rented a house. And I started training and she finished. She went to school and I started doing therapy and going to therapy or conducting therapy.

Now, I started—

I started working in social work and being a therapist, and I was really heavily focused on jiu-jitsu. And, and I had talked to our national P. Little Dave about retiring from the club, and he said, no, just, just go out there and you can show up to what you want. You can be as active as you want, but you don't, you know, you don't have to be alone. You— I was in the club's mother chapter by then, National Governing, so I didn't have to— I didn't have to have a chapter near me. Um, but man, it didn't take long. I was out there, and, and Heath Pettigrew from Pettigrew Submission Fighting, the coach, his brother Randy Pettigrew had grown up doing MMA, and he's the one that got Heath into it, but he had just bought a bike and he was this local legend in that area, this tough guy and a little crazy. And me and him lifted weights at the same gym.

And so he introduced himself and he goes, yeah, you know, I know, you know, you trained my brother. And he goes, if you ever want to start a chapter, I heard a little prospect.

And he walked off and I was like, well, shit. And I still wasn't, I still wasn't necessarily in my mind, but there was a group of guys from this hardcore crew called BDC that were in Alton and St.

Louis area., and they were friends with the Spokane Mongols. So the Spokane Mongols were calling me, hey, since you're out there, we got this great group of guys.

They want to hang out. Well, I didn't have friends really outside of jiu-jitsu.

So now I'm hanging out with these guys and one was tattooer. So I'm getting tattooed and they were awesome. It's so much fun to hang out with.

And then they approached me and said, hey, we want to be Mongols. And I had this kind of conflicting moment where just because I didn't want to be in anymore, should I stop other people from being in? And I mean, looking back, the answer might've been yes, but at the moment, you know, I'm at the blinders on, I'm in the club.. And so I said, let's go.

And like I said, when I started there, there was 2 guys in Kansas City. So it was the only guys in Missouri, no one in Illinois, 1 chapter in Indiana, and none in Tennessee.

When I left that area, we had 4 chapters in Missouri, 2 in Illinois, 5 in Indiana, and 1 in Tennessee. Wow. So I spent some time growing the chapter out there, which created a lot of conflict with a lot of other clubs.. And then, um, yeah, I spent my time out there before I ended up leaving the club.

Wow. Well, and in 2009—

never in a million fucking years would I think a 1% biker gang dude would become a therapist.

Yeah, inside the fucking club.

Yeah. And like I said, I wasn't the only one. You know, Richie Richie, I think still an active member as far as I know, and he's got his PhD in clinical psychology. I mean, that was one of the main reasons Did you ever do therapy for the club member? I mean, not traditional therapy, but like I said, uh, have said before, is that I got to this point. So, you know, now that I'm in this leadership position, this is when I got to the point where we—

I was able to institute like these guys working every, you know, the workout rules.

And, um, I mean, we had that in the Northwest too, but it was later on when I had this authority. So in the Midwest, as I'm, I'm creating all these chapters, so as I get, you know, it's following the club's bylaws and stuff, but I also was able to kind institute my own program, right? And so this was my opportunity to start doing these more positive things that I wanted to do. And one of the big things that I did do was in opening up man-to-man communication, man.

Sitting at church and, how do you feel about that? Or, you know what I mean, those types of things.

And seems counterintuitive to a bunch of alpha males, but man, I'm telling you, the guys loved it. And now instead of just going to the bars, we're hanging out at the gym, we're lifting weights together, we're doing jiu-jitsu together.

I know before I left Oregon, man, we bought wrestling mats and we had them down on the clubhouse and we'd have our meetings and then we'd all fight and do jiu-jitsu.

And so it's like we weren't just drinking at the bar, we were like creating these bonds, doing other activities that were positive and had a positive influence on top of that. Now the members, instead of that adage of these beer-bellied, out-of-shape bikers, man, everyone's in good shape.

You know, we're training. Most of the guys at least know how— some basic fight experience. I got into stick and knife fighting. I was teaching some of the guys that.

So it was like, especially in the Midwest, when I told them, like, we all voted the whole region, I had them all vote and everyone had to work out.

And there would always be, you know, that the old timer that goes, oh, I need to work out my trigger finger or whatever.

And I go, cool, show me you're going to the range 3 days a week. Show me what you're training that 3 days a week. Or the old guy that's not in great shape.

Cool.

Go walk at the park 3 days a week, but do something active. And I really saw that the change did. I mean, If you go like the Mongols have a rule where you have to have meetings, our church once a week. If you run out of things to talk about once a week, what do people do? They start talking about other people and then there's drama. But if we had church and we had nothing to talk about, we'd all go lift together or we do jiu-jitsu together. So we're still getting that weekly face-to-face time, but we're doing positive things.

And I noticed the more people are lifting and training, the less people are partying.

And the less people are partying, the less drama there was. And so there was all this cool positive things coming out of it, you know, positive outcomes. And it was, it was really, really cool for a while.

Wow, man, that's interesting.

Very interesting.

Why did you wind up leaving the club?

So there's a few factors to it. Our national P. Little Dave had just gotten thrown out of the club over allegations of being a federal informant, which he wasn't.

And he later went to trial and was proven that he wasn't. Not a shred of paperwork, but he had had an infidelity and his wife called him when he was drinking and kind of set him up for some statements that made him look bad and, you know, was used against him as a political move. By now I'd been in 15 years.

I had— when I first joined, there wasn't a lot of out-of-state chapters by now, and I didn't start all the out-of-state chapters. I'm not saying that, but by now the Mongols had grown all over.

And when I first came in, like that guy Junior I was telling you about from California was supposed to be in charge of Oregon, but he didn't know the politics of the other clubs there. He didn't know the history of other clubs.

He didn't even know half the members. So I was like, that doesn't make sense.

So as the club grew and I got into positions of leadership, I developed this program called the Regional Rep Program where, like, for example, someone like me, someone that started in that area, been there the whole time, gets elected to oversee the region to make sure everyone's following the same rules and protocol. And then they're the ones that answer to Mother Chapter.

So essentially you're like a liaison from Mother Chapter. You're a part of Mother Chapter.

You're, you're not the national boss, but you're kind of the in-between, right? Because now, say you got to sit down with other clubs in that area, it's not some guy from LA coming up and sitting down with some club from Oregon. It's some local that knows the history, knows the people.

Um, and so I developed that program and we kind of rolled it—

well, we rolled it off around the world eventually, but I rolled across the country.

And then when I was telling you about that support club, the Raiders, I developed a pro—

a program so they weren't weren't their own independent club, and each one of them was tied to a Mongol chapter. So it really turned out to be, like you said before, more of a farm team where a lot of these guys joined the Raiders thinking they didn't want to be a 1%er and have the time. And the more time they were doing it, they're like, this is all the same shit.

It might as well be a Mongol. So by now there's a lot of Mongols that came from this program that I had started too.

So politics are involved. There's a new national P, but they have elections are coming up. A lot of people start saying, well, Mooch should run. And I had said 100 times I wasn't interested. And what I used to tell people is, at the next all-members meeting, stand up and say, raise your hand if you've ever been a National P.

And I go, not one hand's gonna be raised because you either get kicked out of the club or you go to prison.

That's not how I want to leave this club. And at a president's meeting before that, someone had asked, can you be a president if you live— because there was always this idea that you had to live in Southern California to be a president because at the for the most part, back then at least, most of the club was California-centric. The majority of the club was in California. And at that time they said, no, you can be a president from anywhere. Then they took inventory of how many members were in the country and they realized that there was more out of state than there was in state of California. And then Lil Dave goes on this national podcast to, you know, defend his—

clear his name. And it was about him and his career, his name. But the host had asked him like, what would— what do you think should be done?

That would help the Mongols. And he said they should have a new president, someone from like Oregon or Missouri.

So you can imagine— Singling you out? Yeah, I don't— he says it wasn't intentional, but you can imagine the target that put on my back.

So our next national run was Miami, which ended up being the very last national run I went to before I left.

And I'm there and I have everyone there tell me, you know, you can't be president, you know, you can't run. I know, I know.

They come up at the national meeting with a rule.

Hey, does everyone know there's a rule?

You have to live in L.A. Like I was even as much as I expressed I didn't want to be it, I was a threat.

So I go back to the Midwest, and here I, you know, I'm overseeing these 5 states, and all of a sudden I get a text message, or a text message goes out to the regional representatives that says, you know, so-and-so from California is in charge of Tennessee now. And I go, wait, what? And they go, oh no, no, it's both of you are doing it.

And then, oh, so-and-so from California are in charge of Indiana now. So they were trying to take away, take away my influence, right? So I saw the writing on the walls to that.

But the big piece was, you know, when I started up there in Missouri, it was the Galloping Goose. Might as well, they were like the Gyps Joes of Oregon. They said we couldn't be there. There should be issues. And then when I started in Illinois, it was the Outlaws. And at this time, two people close to me were murdered. You know, one of them, he was the president of the Southern Illinois Outlaws at the time. And when I first lived out there and him and I developed a really good relationship and we got really close. And he'd been thrown out of the Outlaws, and he kept hitting me up wanting to be a Mongol.

And we were still—

had pretty good relationships, the Outlaws, then, and we had an agreement we wouldn't take each other's members. And so I told him, hey dude, I'd love to have you, but unfortunately we have this rule.

And on top of that, they say he was thrown out for drug use, and I don't like excessive drug use.

Um, and so if that was the case, I wouldn't have wanted him anyways.

But at this time, the only other club in the country that was accepting Ex-Outlaws with the Pagans. And I knew a guy from jiu-jitsu that I did train with that was starting Pagans chapters around the country. And I put the two of them together. And he has joined the— he joins the Pagans.

He starts doing a chapter in Marion of the Pagans. And some of them were other— were ex-Outlaw guys or out bad Outlaw guys.

And we had this run coming up on a Saturday to like— because by now things with the Outlaws are getting pretty tense. And so we figured, well, us and the Pagans will ride around together to show that we're united, you know, kind of show this United Front. And he calls me Friday night that he's outside working on his bike. He hangs up the phone, someone pulls up and shoots him like 14 times. And he gets killed the day before I ride.

Damn.

At this, shortly thereafter that, I get visited by the FBI. They say they have credible information from an informant that there's a threat on my life. And apparently some member of the Outlaws was saying things like, oh, we got Tug, we're getting Mooch next. And I'm going to be very clear that I don't believe the Outlaws killed Tug. But at the time, that was what it looked like or the speculation. And do you know who killed him?

No, but he was involved. No one's been busted for it, but he was involved in this like stolen bike raid thing.

And I don't want to say anything that would look bad about him, but there was things outside of club life that he was involved in that I think likely played a role.

But at the same time, so, you know, the Outlaws had told us we can never have a chapter in Chicago or in Illinois. And I was very cordial with the Outlaws for a long time. I sat down with them and did all the major meetings with them.

I would go to their—

I went to Taco Bowman's funeral. I was going to their—

I was like sitting down with their national P's for several years, national presidents. We were very close.

And I partied with all the ones in Illinois.

And so much so, in fact, that they had 4 chapters down there that didn't really do anything together or get along.

And I was meeting with them like once every 2 months, helping them be more structured.

Wow.

And so we were friends. And so I had started telling them, I go, listen, a lot of the guys here in Illinois are St.

Louis Mongols out of respect for them.

But the more of us there is, I go, you know, we partying with you guys all the time.

We're all friends.

We hang out. Why can't we just call it Southern Illinois Mongols?

The only thing different is what says on a rocker, right?

We all lived in the same place, same city. But when Tug left or got thrown out, someone else took over that chapter that didn't like us, and tension started to flare.

And they started saying, well, if you're a Mongol and you're in Illinois, you need to call and check in before you ride anywhere. If you're going to go to a bike night, you got to let us know. If you're going to go to Harley, you got to let us know.

And we sure as shit weren't going to do that.

We'd already been there for years. And my thing is, when I was trying to talk to them about starting Southern Illinois, I still always said the same thing from the minute I moved there is I have no intention of ever starting in Chicago. Dave had told me we wouldn't. We had a lot of members that lived in Chicago, but they were running out of like Gary, Indiana, or, you know, chapters around Chicago.

It's a rough town.

Very rough. And they have a big chapter there, which the Outlaws asked us to start because they said, though, yeah, it's fucking horrible. I went there twice and was like, no, I'm good. We can meet somewhere else.

But these are worse than East St. Louis.

That's a tough call. But It could be, man. It could be.

Did you spend a lot of time in East St. Louis?

No, I rode through there once and said never again.

Damn, I used to spend a lot of time in East St. Louis.

Yeah, no, you know what, it's where all the strip clubs are. There is, but the Hells Angels owned a lot of them, so I sure as shit wasn't going to get caught going to those.

They own those?

They did, yeah.

Are you serious?

Yep. What year?

I was there 2017 and left in 2024, and up until at least '23 they owned, um, Not—

I didn't know there was 23 fucking strip clubs over there. I thought I'd been to all of them.

No, no, I mean, in 20— up until 2023. Oh, but there's a bunch in that area. That's where they all are, right? Right there. Shit. Where was I at? Strip clubs. You got me distracted. Anyway, so, yeah, so I had said how we wouldn't start in Chicago. We had members there. Our national P was still Little Dave at the time.

Gary, Indiana.

Yeah, we had that Gary chapter and a lot of the Gary guys lived in Chicago.. And again, out of respect for the Outlaws, we, we, they could live there, but they, their patch said Gary and they would go to their meetings in Gary and they would, if they were gonna bar hop, they'd generally do it in Gary. Same thing with Illinois guys. We went out in Mount Vernon a lot, but if we were gonna go out otherwise, we'd either go to the Outlaws clubhouse or we'd go out in St. Louis. So there's already some tension building now because this dude in Marion Outlaws is talking a bunch of shit and making threats.

And then.

There was issues between the Mongols and Outlaws in Florida that were— and then Mongols and Outlaws in Pennsylvania. There was like, we went from supposedly being friends to like these friction. And a member in Utah was getting in Little Dave's ear about how many members he had in Chicago that would join if we start a Chicago chapter.

And he just kept getting on Dave about it.

And they kind of gave him a sales pitch that wasn't true.

And Dave knew I was trying to start Southern Illinois.

So Dave calls me, goes, hey, cool, green light on Illinois. We're going to start Southern Illinois, Chicago. And I go, fuck, you know, I just told all these guys we're not— I never said we wouldn't do it, but I definitely said I have no interest in it. We don't have any interest in it, which is pretty much saying it right, just in a box myself in the corner.

So when we started Chicago, they started—

they tried to attack a pack in Chicago and a couple of them got shot and ran over. And then they tried to walk into a bar and shoot at some Mongols, but they got shot. So things started going pretty heavy up there. And I was getting the blame for it because I had told these guys we weren't going to do it, or, you know, at least we had no intention. And now we did it, which I understand. But also the way club works is when the boss says that you're doing it, you're doing it. And so when Dave says, hey, we're doing it, um, I was in charge of it, but it wasn't my decision.

So anyways, now Dave's out.

I get this threat on my life from, you know, allegedly from the Outlaws. Tug Gist gets killed, and the new leaders call the Outlaws and say, yeah, we didn't, we didn't authorize Chicago. That was Mooch and Dave. So my own club against this club that supposedly trying to kill me throws me under the bus.

Why the fuck would they do that?

He's—

at this point they were politicking.

I mean, well, A, this new leadership, he—

this dude is not very intelligent. Um, I mean, definitely not leadership material. He doesn't even like riding motorcycles. He even straight up said like He goes, yeah, I don't go, I don't go above 55 miles an hour. I'll just meet you there. I'm like, why the hell are you in a club, let alone— and why don't we just join a gang at that point? But, you know, I don't want to sit here and badmouth, so I'll digress. But in Texas, I think 2019 or so, the national club, their big club there is the Bandidos. They've always been the only 1% club there. I was very tight with them. I used to go to meetings and party with them often. And a bunch of their Hispanic members in leadership had defected ended up wanting to join the Mongols and we put it up to a vote and I had argued and voted against it, but I lost the vote and they ended up joining that. So now Bandidos and Mongols are going after it. The same guys in leadership tell the Bandidos that was Mooch and Dave.

So what's it like when you're partying with these guys and you have good friends in another club, but then it comes down, there's a mandated war?

It's awful, man.

You talk to them at all after that? Are you like, hey, like, the hard part is they stopped talking to me.

Because all the blame got put on me, right?

So these dudes that I was tight with, they feel they've been wronged by you.

Yeah.

And they took it personal because I was, I was at their funerals and their, their clubhouses and we party together, you know.

Gotcha.

And so I went from a year before that being able to party with almost every club in the country other than the Hells Angels, to all of them want to kill me.

So we got that going on.

But the final nail in the coffin is And this is, this is a tough one. But when I moved it, when I first moved to Illinois, there was a member, Dealer Dan. He'd been in a long time. He used to live in Illinois. Now he's in Oklahoma. So he knew a lot of people in that area. So when I started St. Louis, he kept going, this is his chance, right?

Hey, I got guys here.

I got guys here.

But everyone he sent to me were not people that I would bring into the club. They weren't the type of people I was bringing to the club. So whenever he would suggest, I would start blowing it off after a while.

And he kept going, I got these guys at Lake Ozarks.

I got these guys at Lake Ozarks. And two of them are relatives of his. And I just have this picture in my mind.

So I was like, nah, no, no.

Well, we went to this event called the Boogie, this big motorcycle rally in Indiana, and the Ozark guys were going to come out and meet me. And I figured, okay, at least give them a chance to meet us.

And they show up and majority of them were just awesome guys. And there was a father-son that was in it.

They were the ones related to Dealer Dan.

And the son was 25, 24, 25.

He was in the Army. Had left the Army. He was—

had done MMA before most people knew what it was.

He was doing jiu-jitsu.

We had so much in common, man.

But this kid, he was like a young, bright face, like good kid, you know what I mean?

He had a lot going for him. And dude, they had so much fun that they ended up staying the night and they had nowhere to stay.

So they slept on the dirt. And I'm in a motor—

I'm in a camper and I come out and these guys are sleeping in the dirt. And I started spending time with them.

I'm like, these are good people, man, you know?

And so eventually they kept calling me and I called me and we did some meetings at Shady Jack's in St. Louis. And finally I said, I'll tell you what, there was no chapter for them to prospect out of. And I know that the Foresteros Galloping Goose didn't want them there. So I said, well, let's start you guys as Raiders, this, you know, the smaller club. I go, if you could sustain that chapter, the Raiders, for a year, be active, support the other functions in the area and grow without getting in trouble, I'll consider making you guys all Mongols in a year.

So we start the Raiders there.

Things are going well. There's a lot of rumor mill with the Galloping Goose. There's some shit talking, a couple of little fistfights, but nothing major. And the Galloping Goose say there's never going to be Mongols in this area. And so I made a bunch of phone calls and we ended up going to Lake of the Ozarks Bike Fest one year, 180 motorcycles and over 210 Mongols.

And keep— I had my brother came out with me and me and him are leading the pack. So remember when I said I used to ride with 6 guys?

I had 180 motorcycles behind me, man.

There's video footage of it.

It's insane.

There's video of it?

Yeah, yeah. I'll send you some, dude.

It was—

please do—

wild. Um, I mean, I'll put it up right now.

That's probably the peak of my career, you know?

And, uh, we made this presence like, hey, you say we can't be here, look at this.

And so there was still some threats made back and forth, but it finally had chilled out. And at one point, some of their leadership guys called And I talked to the leader there and we just kind of agreed to ignore each other.

There's going to be no beef.

And I was out to eat with my chapter one night and they were at a bike night. These guys were at a bike night, like at the Bagnell Dam during the day. And the Galloping Goose showed up to try and fight them. And I didn't— normally they would have to tell me they were going to something like this. And I don't know if he knew I would have said no, but they went. And the Goose were outside. They were going bar to bar looking for them. And they come into the bar where the Mongols are and they all buy beer. So they have bottles and they stand outside and wait for them. So Blaine decides, you know what, this isn't the time or place. Like, essentially, like, what would Mooch do? Let's leave and deal with it another time.

So they all walk out and he's all the way up to his bike and had turned his bike on when they attack someone in the back.

So he runs up there, starts fighting, he starts hitting this dude with his helmet. Gunshots start going off and he gets shot, killed on the spot. So I'm out to lunch, I'm out to dinner with my chapter, and I get a call from his dad and he says, Blaine's been shot. Blaine's been shot. And it was one of those moments in my head, it was just, it didn't make sense yet, you know what I mean? Sorry, but it didn't make sense. I was like, what do you mean?

You know, he's okay, right?

He's okay. He goes, I don't know, no one will tell us, we don't know. So I called my wife to pack me a bag. Me and my chapter grab our bags, we get in the car, we're rushing over there to see what's going on. No one's telling us anything. And we start seeing pictures on the news and there's a body there under a tarp and his arm's hanging out and the wristband from the boogie is on his arm. And it was Blaine and he was, he was killed. And, uh, you know, because of decisions I made because of a chapter I agreed to start because I fought against my intuition of letting him join. And he did. And that hit me heavy enough that that was it for me, man.

I left shortly thereafter that.

I'm sorry, man.

Yeah, I'm sorry. Give me a second.

Sorry, man. It's all good, brother.

But so between that, the politics that were going on, threats on my life, I saw the writing on the walls and I saw that I was likely going to get kicked out or pushed out. So I had retired in good standings initially, which means I could keep my patch, I can keep my t-shirts and my club stuff. I could still have contact with the club because, you know, I've been in 15 years by then. And one of our members, after Blaine got killed, you can imagine that temper—

people were pretty pissed off.

And one of our members was at a bar and some Outlaws came in and and they got in a fight and he beat him up and it was— he smacked him around. He punched him a few times, but it was nothing serious.

Well, the outlaw pressed charges.

I mean, I have the paperwork to it, which that's not something we do in 1% world, but the outlaw pressed charges. And so this member Mike, he's facing this court case and he ends up taking a plea bargain of a 3-year suspended sentence. So if he gets caught hanging out with the Mongols, he goes to prison for 3 years. So he wants to step away from the club for obvious reasons.

Well, I had retired.

He was supposed to be the president. The other members in that club were his brother, his co-worker and best friend, and then the other guy from our gym, and then a homie that just moved in with him. That's how tight-knit our chapter was. And the Mongols have a rule after Black Rain and everything, they had a rule that you can't leave, you can't retire unless you've been in for 10 years. So these guys only been some of them 1 year, 2, 3 years for these guys. And so they'd ask for permission to leave in good standings, and then they were going to come back when Mike could come back. I think leadership saw this as their opportunity to get rid of me. So they kept saying they're advocating for them to be in good standings, they're advocating. But then I get this phone call and they said, hey, you know, we're sorry, but the club decided those guys are out in bad standings.

The rules are rules.

We got to follow the rules.

They're out bad, which means no contact, which means you can't have contact with them. And, you know, our homeboy just died. We went through this shit together.

We started this chapter together.

We were doing jiu-jitsu together. We were working out together. And I said, well, hey, I'm not gonna lie to you guys. I'm gonna keep hanging out with these guys, dude. And a lot of the brothers I was tight with around the country saw it as I was taking— picking them over the club. But it was the principle for me, right?

Like, those dudes that I I fell on my sword for and went with.

I wasn't like, they're going to be my best friends forever. I didn't know, but it was the principle, right? Like, you're going to throw these dudes out when this dude just damn near ruined his— could have went to prison for years over this, and they're being loyal to their brother and we're going to kick them out? So I said, well, I'm going to keep hanging out with them. And they said, well, you know what that means? That means you're out in bad standings then. And I said, well, then so be it. And a message went out to everyone in the nation that Mooch has chose to move on with his life. There's no ill will, but he's on no contact. And that was it. That was the end of my club career.

Fuck, man.

But you know what, man? So it turned into— that was the very beginning of 2022. So the blessing in disguise was, if I was still retired, I would have to answer to them still, follow the rules. I wouldn't be able to be on podcasts. I couldn't have wrote my book. I couldn't have been doing definitely couldn't have been going on podcasts with Texel's Angels and trying to push this peace message. And, um, I needed that shove out the door to move on. I really needed it. So it ended up being a positive.

Do you spend a lot of time looking over your shoulder?

No. Um, there's people in other clubs that don't care for me, and that just is what it is, man. That's life. But I mean, You know, I pay attention on the people that don't like me and I know where they're at, but I don't let it affect what I'm going to do with my life.

And I'm not saying that like I'm sort of badass or anything like that, but it's just to me, it's not—

I don't have beef, right?

So if they want to, that's on them. But I'm not going to let it interfere with where I go and what I do.

Have you processed your friend's death?

Love? Not as much as I should, apparently.

I mean, so I have stayed since then.

I became best friends with his mom and dad. I talked to them every week. We used to vacate, we talk, we hang out, we vacation together. I've gotten really, really close with them. Um, his mom just is having a very tough battle with cancer right now, which is terrible. Their family's already been through enough, but, um, it brought us very, very close together. I mean, they're some of my best friends to this Good.

Are you a Christian?

I'm not.

Why?

You're from Italian family?

My family is like—

I grew up, I was baptized Episcopalian. My family, well, my grandpa was Christian, rest of us were Episcopalian. We would go to church. I never found religion to an extent.

I do believe I have my morals and values in line with with Christianity and religion for the most part.

I believe in a higher power, but I just am in this fundamentals of do good, be good, do unto others. And I really value that. And what I do like about religion, and I've seen as a strong role, is especially in this age, a lot of my friends have found religion and it's put them on a positive path.

It's helped improve their lives.

It's helped them become better people because it gave us something to believe in that aligned with their morals and values, if that makes sense.

What do you think happens when you die?

I don't know, man. I mean, I grew up saying nothing, you know, I thought that's it.

But I think it's just lights out and that's it.

Yeah. I mean, that was my thought for years. I don't know where I'm at with it at this point.

You don't know where you're at?

Yeah.

I mean, I mean, like I said, I've always just been a—

that's it.

And so are you exploring? Not necessarily.

Like, so more and more of my friends have gotten into religion, and I've seen it be a huge positive impact on their life. But the things that are positive are things that I already feel that are part of my life, as far as that, the feeling of the greater good and not yourself and giving yourself to others and giving back and helping and those types of things, you know. But as far as afterlife, it's not something I really consider. Or haven't considered.

You haven't considered what happens after you die being around that much fucking death?

Probably because that's why I haven't probably considered, man.

I was just always in the moment.

There wasn't a lot of time for reflection when you're in there, you know?

I do know because I have been a part of shit like this.

Absolutely. It was just legal. Yeah.

But yeah, I mean, I've only been out a couple of years and you know, I've been on this mental health mission and this mental health journey, and it's exposing me to more of it.

Are you shutting it out?

No, I'm not opposed to it.

You know, Mel sends his devotionals, and, and some of my homies talk to me. I'm like, I'm not against it. I don't—

I love what it's done for my friends, my friends that found it. And it's— I've seen the positive.

I love it.

I'm all about it.

I just don't know if it's for me only.

And, and I couldn't even tell you why. I'm not sure.

Because maybe it's just the structure I don't like, which is funny since I'm a guy who's structured, right?

I don't know.

Structure, huh? What structure?

Well, I just mean like the going to church and I guess that's it, going to church. Because like I said, I feel like I already have a lot of those values.

And I don't know, I just have a lot to consider, I guess, when it comes to that.

I haven't really done a lot of reflection on it.

How many friends do you think you have that are dead now?

Let me show you something. Beginning of my book is in memory of—

two full pages.

And this was 3 years ago. There's more.

So a lot. You don't think any of those guys have visited you?

I do.

I do. As far as the lessons they taught me and the feelings, those types of things.

Absolutely.

Like the presence of the lessons I learned from them, the kindness that they shared or the connections that we have. I definitely feel that 100%. I don't know if— and, you know, same like my little brother that passed a long time ago. You know, there's I just don't know if I've equated it to like their presence is here or it's something I carry with me and in me because I learned it from them, or that's something— the impression they left on me.

You gotta dive in, man.

What's that?

You gotta dive in.

Okay.

I'm sure there's a ton of shit that you're not telling me.

In relation to what?

All the shit you've done.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

The violence.

There's only so much time, right?

And then, yeah, I mean, I get it.

I know you can't go into everything.

Yeah.

Especially since it was only, what, 4 years ago?

Yeah.

But if there was— if you do believe, if you think there's even an inkling of Jesus or God or heaven or hell? Where do you think you're going?

Good question.

Good question. I don't have a necessary inkling of heaven and hell. And I, for me, I see it as more of a way to enforce morality, social control, but more the enforcement of morality if you don't do these things, here's the bad things that can happen. And the thing I like about my friends that have found it and the good stuff is that they're being forgiven and moving on. And a lot of people have to unload those things to feel better. And I don't mean that to be disrespectful. I'm just trying to like process this out loud, but I've seen it be good for people. I just have a hard time believing in hell. Especially with shit I've gone through here.

So then you, you got your master's?

I do, from Christian college.

From Christian college?

Oh, the irony.

I figured you'd like that one.

Wow.

Where at?

George Fox University. That's actually where I got my— finished my undergrad too.

Have you ever looked at psychedelic therapy?

Yeah, and I'm a strong proponent. I've never done it. I'd love to, but I'm a strong proponent of it. One of my friends was a— he was actually a Force Recon Marine as well, and then became a Mongol and got into addiction from the club and went through a lot, got out. Out and, um, now advocates for, for that type of therapy. Uh, well, he's doing psilocybin mainly because he's doing stuff in the United States, but he's really advocating it for vets and treatment like that. And I've, you know, as a therapist, I've read the studies and I, and I know people have done it and that the outcomes have been amazing. I mean, one of my close friends that was also Marine and was, uh, a Mongol, he was probably one of the grouchiest, meanest people I met, man. And actually took him to meet Mel back in March and I was like, dude, what has changed? Like, he was peppy and happy and he went to Mexico and did one of those treatments and said it helped him put his life into focus and was more confident with himself.

And he was—

I mean, it changed him in the most positive way, the amazing way.

You talk to Cody about it? Cody Alford?

And I've seen him post some stuff about it, but I would never like sat down and talked about it, but I'm all for it. I think it's great.

I've done it.

I'd love to do it.

I changed my whole fucking life, man.

Yeah, I bet.

I mean, I bet it's awesome. And I feel like the stuff I have to process would be great. But, you know, there's always barriers to treatment like that when it's expensive. You got to go to the country and there's things like that where it's like, it's that social services in a nutshell, right? Like there's a lot of people that can benefit from great services, but it's getting them connected to the services. That's the challenge.

Do you want to do it?

I'd love to do it.

It's a financial thing?

Absolutely. I'm a social worker, bro. I don't— I'm on a pretty limited income.

What if I get you a slot?

Let's go.

I love it, man.

All right. I think I can probably get that done.

That'd be amazing, man. That would be amazing.

You can go to the same place I went. AMBO.

Okay.

That'd be awesome, man.

I begain.

That's what—

that's what the— a lot of the new stuff, the studies are coming out that I've read about.

I think if you do that, you'll realize there's a lot more after death.

Yeah, they said I'm open.

Can I give you something?

Yeah.

It's easy.

Okay.

It's called the Jesus Calling. One thing a day takes about 60 seconds.

Okay.

I give you my word, I'll read it.

Just give it a shot.

Okay.

See if it— see if it speaks to you.

Absolutely.

I'll let you know.

I appreciate it. Thank you very much.

You're welcome, man. And I'm serious. I'll talk to Trevor at Ambio and I will see if I can get you a slot.

That'd be amazing, man. Thank you so much.

You'll go?

Yeah, 100%. I'm all in.

Fucking A, man. It'd be great. So tell me about being a therapist.

It's been incredible, man. And like I said, so initially I started— one of the things I really resonated with at first was I was doing group therapy for perpetrators of domestic violence. And a moment I will never forget is it was me and a woman co-facilitator. And, you know, essentially we're breaking these generational habits and the learned behaviors and all sorts of cultural stuff, right? And we're sitting in this room with all these guys, they're court-ordered. And the topic is of possessiveness or control over how a woman dresses. And this guy was like, yeah, I would never let my woman go out in a dress that short. And he looks at me, he's like, right, Brother, because he thought I was in the class. And I was like, nah, man, you know. And then class went on, whatever. 6 months later, he's getting ready to go out, a new guy comes in. The new guy says damn near the same thing. And this guy goes, that's not cool, bro. I was like, yes. And I remember being at Walmart and a guy from class going, babe, babe, this is the guy I was telling you about.

And then I was at the other grocery store, dude was with his homies like, bro, bro, this is the dude I was telling you about. And like, so seeing the positive outcomes and the change, like not only did it change his life, but obviously the women that come into contact with him really, really motivated me. And then I got into doing therapy I do now with, with at-risk youth. And I do multi-systemic therapy. So I work with kids from 11 to 17 that are at risk of being, being placed outside the home. And so either correctional settings or foster care with the goal of keeping the youth in the home. And although it's called therapy, I'm not really sitting down with the youth and asking about how he feels or even addressing his trauma. What we look into is what are all the fact—

systematic factors that are driving this behavior.

So for example, say the youth smoking weed, which is just the easy example.

We'll find out where's his access, what's his supervision like at home, like where does he smoke? Is he being supervised? Does he go to his friend's house?

Does his mom know? Does the caregiver know where the—

who the peers are, how he's paying for it?

And then we meet with the parents and we develop these interventions such as rewards and consequences, increased supervision, support.

So if mom's at work, who's watching the youth?

If youth is going to friend's house, Does mom know who friends are?

They talk to the parents. So we teach these parenting skills, so to speak, to parents so that when we're no longer in the home, they can continue this. And we see amazing, amazing results. It's, it's, you know, it's a scientific approach to it. So the evidence is supporting as long as we adhere to the model.

And it's really—

I mean, it's powerful, man. You know, seeing these kids are—

because I know firsthand, right, what it's like to be on paper and be involved in the system and having a hard time getting out.

And so teaching these positive skills to both parents and kids, because a lot of these parents are in this day and age, especially in our reality, it's a lot of single-parent households and the single parent is working a ton and, you know, maybe didn't have good role models growing up in their lives. So not knowing how to parent. So these all these different things where we're going in and we're— because it's an intensive service where we meet them in the home. They don't come to us and we go 2, 3 times, sometimes 4 times a week. We only see 5 or 6 clients at a time. So it's a very intense sentence for 120 days.

120 days.

Yeah.

So anywhere between the highest we can go up to 150, but it's generally average 120 days of us in the home. Wow. And seeing because that way, you know, when we say, okay, here, let's develop, say, a bedtime, nighttime routine. So because the youth is not sleeping or, you know, not waking up in the morning. So, okay, well, what's access to the computer or their phone or, you know, whatever, all the stuff we look at it. We'll do it in the hall. Like if they say, you know, Johnny won't wake up at 7 a.m. to go to school, I've tried this, this and this. So cool.

Next session's at 7 a.m.

and I'll be there with you when you try and wake him up, see what happens. And now if we're there and we see it, we can see what's driving that behavior, right? And then we could systematically attack which driver we want to do, what interventions we're going to do. And essentially a lot of those interventions will generalize to the other behaviors. So once those things increase, you know, leaving without permission might get better or the backtalk or verbal aggression.

All of these things.

And so, um, that's been really cool.

So I'm a clinical supervisor of that now.

Um, so I don't normally see clients anymore, but I oversee two teams. So I have anywhere from 3 to 6 therapists when I do that, and I help them develop the treatment plans. And then I also shadow, go to the home and make sure they're adhering to the model. And then, um, another thing I started about a year ago—

you see yourself in a lot of these kids when you work?

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

I mean, yes and no. So like You know, there's that adage that people join gangs or whatever because of poor family life. And I never— I had an amazing family, you know.

And a lot of what I see is single family households and different generations, different cultures. You know, I'm on the East Coast versus back in Oregon, but a lot of things are the same. And what I see a lot is that the role of prosocial activities, sports, clubs, the role that plays in keeping youth out of trouble and teaching them positive lessons where there's so many budget cuts, funding, or these rural areas that don't even have, you know, to have the means to do this. So there isn't a lot of sports or afterschool programs or all these things that I had as a kid, right? It's like school's out and kid goes home until 8 o'clock when mom gets home and who knows what's happening in between. And they're not getting this pro-social activities or not having these positive peers in the same environment. You know what I mean? And so they're often left unsupervised with— and what do you think teenagers do when they're left unsupervised, man? Usually not good shit, right?

So there's those similarities that I think you see with a lot of youth.

But what I do see is what it's like to be in the system, to be on probation and the pushback against authority once you get there.

You know, all those things that come with it.

I'll bet they can relate with you a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, that was my argument from the very first day with that Oregon Youth Authority is that, you know, part of therapy is we don't self-disclose, but I don't have to tell them my story for them to look at me and go, this guy gets it.

Gets it, you know.

And that's been a big strong suit.

I mean, it's been awesome.

Um, and then I started this thing called Devil's Advocate, which is right now it's just a one, one day a week men's group. It's Monday nights. But a lot of the men that come to us, they're either former motorcycle club members, military members, some of them have been in prison.

And we really address this piece, which I could talk to you about.

We also do on the Patch Podcast of when someone devotes the majority of their adult life to something and they leave it, whether it's a club or a gang or the military or even law enforcement, the struggle of finding your identity again— who are you, what's your purpose, right, what's your goals— and helping people align with that by hearing the stories of others that have been through similar situations, by hearing what worked for other people or what didn't work. So it's like this group collective of, you know, helping each other. And then another big piece, you know, we do— we have stuff. We'll do anger management stuff to some extent through that way, emotional regulation, and, you know, the parts of not letting other people control your emotions, right? Like being confident with who you are as a person, knowing who you are so you don't care what other people think. Like all these topics we discuss on, um, and that's been really, really powerful. And the bonds that I built in there and the changes I've seen in people there has been something where I definitely want to grow that program and see what I can do about getting getting to, getting through to more people with that.

It's fucking awesome, dude.

Thanks, man. Yeah, it's been, it's been very rewarding, but it's just been really cool. You know, the connections I made, the people I've met, especially when we're going through these journeys together, like the men's group and stuff, like far outweighs the brotherhood that I thought I missed leaving the club.

Do you miss it?

I don't, man.

People ask me often, you miss it or would you go back? And I would be a strong no to both of those. Not in a negative way. Majority of it I enjoyed and I learned a lot of great lessons. But my life, my morals, my values, my life is no longer aligned with that life. I feel like I'm on a different path. And like when people ask me a lot, hey, I want to join. People hit me up on social media all the time and ask questions and I try and respond to everybody when I can. I always say, well, if you're thinking, they say, I want to join a club, you think it's good? I said, well, write down all the positives it could potentially bring to your life. How could it make your life better?

And how can it make your life worse?

What are the risks? And then you tell yourself if it's going to be good for you or not, because I don't want to talk anyone out of it, you know. But, you know, the risks, a lot of the times these are guys that are in there like where I was in my mid-20s, early 30s, trying to figure out what am I going to be doing? What am I supposed to be doing? And they're like, well, you know, I'd love to be a part of something and have these brothers. And it's, it's an attractive lifestyle. But if you start thinking of the risk of death, prison, you know, all the stuff that comes with it, especially if you're married and you have a family. I'm not saying— there's a lot of members that are good members and good husbands and have good jobs. So I'm not saying that you can't do it, but I'm saying it makes things challenging and it's an extra stress in your life and it's not for everybody.

Is your wife a Christian? No.

No, I don't think her— I don't know if her family is not very religious in general.

What's next for you, man?

So, you know, I'm doing, uh, the Patch Podcast where, like I said, we initially were pushing the peace between motorcycle clubs, which we're still really working on. But also just helping guys that are now leaving that life. You know, I see a lot of these podcasts about motorcycle clubs and it's ex-members that get on there and they want to air their grievances and talk bad about the life and talk bad about the club. And I don't see a therapeutic process in that, right? I think it's just like validation of why they're no longer in. I want to help the guys that are ready to put it behind them and move on. And there's a member from the Hells Angels named Pee Wee that started this Facebook group called Brothers for Life. And it's a lot of ex-members of the major clubs around there.. And you know, it's just a Facebook group, but they meet up once a year. And I went to their meetup last year, which was wild. One of them asked me, so mucho, still got that tattoo. But there was a guy on there that posted not that long ago. He was a member from Cleveland and his, I don't know if it was his blood brother or if he said brother because it was the club, but his brother from the Hells Angels was murdered by a Mongol.

And he wrote on there, he said, that his brother was murdered by cowards. And normally I think that might have triggered me because if you think, like I said before, both sides feel vindicated, right? So I, so I wrote him back and I said, well, first of all, dude, just so you know, I mean, sorry for your loss, but I said this group is for guys to put that life behind them. And it sounds like you might still have some strong feelings towards that club. I said, second only, it's terrible what happened to your brother, but we could go back and forth I could say the same thing. I've had members murdered by cowards, right? I go, what you really need to do is take a step back and you're going to be mad at the soldiers. Be mad at the war. What caused that to happen? And they sent me the longest, nicest message. And now we're friends and we talk a lot because it really changed the way he thought, you know, instead of blaming someone else or calling someone a coward or anything else. It was the situation. It was this ongoing war where people are fighting over a piece of cloth.

And I think the more people that start to recognize that, hopefully maybe that'll help it stop. But I'm not arrogant enough to think that I'm going to be the change to make it happen. But if I can help a couple of people, man, then it'd be great.

I think you've already helped a lot of people, man. Thank you so much. You're welcome. You're welcome. How's your brother doing?

My brother's doing good, man. My brother's doing good.

Is he still in?

No, he retired in good standings right before me. But he is in good standing, so he's in— we're not supposed to hang out together or like post pictures together because he still follows the rules of the club since he's in good standings. But, you know, he's on the other side of the coast. He's got two awesome kids and his wife, who he's been with since we were in the Vagos. So 20 years now.

He's—

wow.

Yeah, it worked.

Yeah. Yeah. She's awesome. Their kids are amazing. He owns a house for adults with developmental disabilities, so he works with with, um, well, I said adults with developmental disabilities, but yeah, he owns a group home for adults with developmental disabilities. So he works kind of in the field too, and he's helping others. And, um, yeah, he's been doing really well.

Good, man. Good.

Life's gotten good, man. Life's been good.

I'm happy for you, dude.

Thank you so much.

You're a good person.

I appreciate that.

My pleasure.

Thanks so much for having me on, man. This has been great.

It was an honor. I'll be praying for you, man.

I appreciate it. I'll definitely read the book and let you know how I feel, for sure.

You don't have to.

Yeah, I like to follow up. It'll give me accountability.

Cool. You know, Mel's going to be on your ass after he sees this.

I'm sure he will. I'm sure he will. He talked to me a little bit about it before I came on, so.

Cool. Well, Butch, it was an honor, man.

Thank you so much.

Got a hell of a story, and I know there's a lot more, but I want to start focusing on the second half more. Good for you.

So I appreciate it.

My pleasure.

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