Transcript of 531. Hitler's War on Poland: The Pact with Stalin (Part 2)

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This night, for the first time, Polish regular soldiers fired on our territory. Since 5:45 AM, we have been returning their fire. And from now on, bombs will be met by bombs. Whoever fights with poison gas will be fought with poison gas. Whoever departs from the rules of humane warfare can only expect that we shall do the same.

And I will continue this struggle against any enemy until the safety and rights of the Reich are secured. I am asking no more of any German than what I did myself for 4 years. There will be no hardships that I do not share. From this moment on, my entire life belongs to my people. I want nothing else now than to be the first soldier of the German Reich I have now put on, the same uniform that was once so dear, so sacred to me.

I will only take it off when victory is won, or else I will not live to see it. Said Dominic, the unmistakable tones there of Adolf Hitler, and he was addressing the Reichstag on the 1st September 1939. And this was on the occasion of the declaration of war on Poland, which in effect, I know that historians of of China may disagree, but let's run with this. It's basically the outbreak of the 2nd World War.

Yep.

And I gave him their, you know, doing his kind of rant. People on YouTube will be able to see me gesticulating and all of that frothing. Yeah. But, actually, he was quite hesitant, really, wasn't he? He kind of occasionally stumbled over his words, seemed a bit nervous.

Yes.

You know, he's he's been looking forward to this great moment. And now when it's come, I mean, is there kind of a slight measure of doubt?

There is, I think, a lot of stress. I think, Hitler's not the devil. He's a human being. He's made of flesh and blood. And at this crucial moment in his career, the moment that his life, his physical career has been building towards, the outbreak of the war in Europe that he has been predicting for so long, I think he's he's in a a bit of an emotional state, actually.

He's in a bit of a mess because he doesn't know whether Britain and France are going to enter the war or not. Everything is in play. And, yeah, he he actually got the time wrong. So he said 545, but it was actually 445. He stumbled there and said the wrong time.

And he was very, very hesitant and with good reason. Right? This is the moment that he throws the dice, and we all know what the consequences for Europe will be, but also the consequences for Hitler himself. He looks ahead there to his own death. I won't take this uniform off unless either victory is won or I am dead.

And he's already, I think, anticipating what he will do if things go wrong, I e, the Wagnerian fate.

Yeah. Dare to up the funeral power of his capital.

Exactly. So this is the second episode of our trilogy about the Nazi war on Poland. And we ended last time, Tom, as you may remember, with Hitler and his generals drawing up their plan of attack on the 11th April 1939. The Poles have resisted their attempts to persuade them to give up Danzig and to turn themselves into a satellite state. So he's drawn up this plan for an attack on Poland, and it's about the same time in April that Joachim von Ribbentrop, very much not, somebody admired by the rest of history, it's fair to say, for all kinds of reasons, sartorial and ideological.

Tailoring, I think, high on the list.

Tailoring very high on the list. But he suggests an idea that on paper seems completely unthinkable, which is why don't we do a deal with our ideological arch enemy, Stalin, and divide up Poland between us. And we'll be following that story in today's episode. But the man you've been ventriloquizing there, in an impression that may get you canceled, is kind of hard to tell, isn't it?

I don't think so.

You don't think so? No.

I

think there was a lot of gusto there.

Well, I mean, I think if you're conveying a sense of Hitler's manic, demonic energy

You've gotta go for it.

You gotta go for it, haven't you?

I suppose you do. Yeah. I suppose you do.

I mean, it's important to feel what's motivating and driving him, or else you don't understand the war.

Yeah. Method acting. Anyway, Hitler himself, right, he's 50 years old. He had celebrated his 50th birthday on the 20th April 1939, so just 9 days after the plan was drawn up for the destruction of of Poland. And to mark the big day, I mean, it is 1 of the most extraordinary birthday parties in history.

Goebbels organized what Ian Kershaw, Hitler's great biographer called an astonishing extravaganza of the Fuhrer cult. So they have a huge parade of limousines down this new road, this new avenue in Berlin called the east west axis, which has been planned as the main boulevard of the new capital of Germania. Berlin will be renamed in time Germania. That's Hitler's plan.

And this is what Hitler's been chatting about with Albert Speer in

Yeah. Interminably.

Yeah. Drawing up little plans and big domes and things.

Exactly. They have huge torch lit parades. And at midnight so midnight is the moment, basically, that Hitler's birthday begins. Speer presents him with a big model for the new triumphal arch that they are planning, which would be the biggest triumphal arch

in the world. Yes. So much

bigger than the archer trail. Exactly. And then the next day, there's a gigantic military parade, a 5 hour military parade, and Hitler stands. You know, he doesn't sit down. He stands and watches the whole thing, and he's clearly delighted.

And, again, this is a reminder of how strange Hitler is. Because I think for most dictators, this would be the apotheosis, the climax. You've turned 50. You've conquered, you know, everything. You've you've achieved all the foreign policy goals of any German nationalist pretty much.

This is the point to stop and slow down and and enjoy it.

And also, you're not well, are you? You're necking quantities of gun oil

and stuff. That's right.

You're popping amphetamines.

Yeah. Absolutely. But as Ian Kirschner points out, 50 is an age where a lot of people tend to take stock. It's your classic kind of midlife crisis moment.

So his midlife crisis is starting the 2nd World War. I mean, some people go to the gym, some people buy a red motorbike. Yeah. Other people start world conflicts.

Well, that's Hitler, as Kershaw said. He spends all the time thinking about his own approaching death. Death is on his mind all the time. He has a a sense of loss of vigor, great anxiety about his health, and this tremendous sense of time running out. It's really important to him to strike soon.

Most of his high command are ultimately desperate to avoid war with the West, because they think, why gamble everything? Why risk everything when we've achieved so much? You know, we're in power. We enjoy being in power. We don't want to throw that away.

That's what that's how most authoritarians and dictators think. Not Hitler. He must have his war. So 8 days after his birthday, he gives a landmark speech at the Reichstag. He renounces the non aggression pact with Poland.

So, Tom, this is picking up your point from last time about what these pacts were. The answer is nothing. He also tears up the naval treaty with Britain. And for the first time, he publicly lays out the grievances that he and Ribbentrop have prepared. So that's Danzig, which we heard about last time, and the Polish corridor.

And then a month goes by, and he summons his commanders to the Reich chancellery, and he gives them the full Adolf Hitler bingo card. So we're being strangled economically. We need more living space, our racial destiny, all of this kind of stuff. Jews? Yeah.

The Jews are behind everything, of course. He says, Poland is the target. Absolutely, there will be war. But here he goes beyond anything that he has said to his generals before. For the first time, he does not talk.

He he explicitly rules out, in fact, a friendship or alliance with the other Anglo Saxon Germanic world power, which is Britain or England as he always calls it. He had always talked in the long run about some kind of deal with England. You know, that basically was part of his vision.

Germany rules Europe

Exactly.

And what had been Russia and Britain rules the rest of the world, basically.

Exactly. But now for the first time, he says explicitly, England is our enemy, and the showdown with England is a matter of life and death. So he's already beginning to recalibrate his attention a little bit from the east towards the west to see the west as an ideological arch enemy as well. And for the first time, we have a preview of what's going to happen in 1940. He says, you know, I've been thinking about this a lot.

We will have to take Holland and Belgium. We'll take France. We can easily take France. Of course, he he is right. They do easily take France.

But to his generals, it's mad, isn't it? Yeah. Because on the western border, Germany is outnumbered 6 to 1 by the French.

Yeah. And, Wes, we will see in next week's episode as the war begins, there is a case that, you know, if the French had shown a little bit more gumption.

Had gone in gone in hard.

Yeah. There would have been a very different outcome. But he says we can take France. We'll take the Atlantic seaboard and the channel, and that will allow us to blockade England. We'll strangle England and bring them to their knees.

The only question in his mind is the timetable. I think at this point, he's still thinking, we do Poland this year, and then maybe, you know, the West, Western Europe in a couple of years' time.

But so he he doesn't think that invading Poland will bring Britain and France into the war? Because he despises them as little worms, their leaders.

And that will run through today's episode. He his misjudgment Hitler's judged his foreign policy coups very cleverly up to this point. But I think from this point on, or rather from the the final attack on Czechoslovakia that we did last time, from that point on, I think he completely misreads London.

Do you think that's because he's actually met the British and French leaders in person?

That's a good point, actually. It's funny that he he starts to get them wrong after he's met them. Yeah. I think that's part of it. I think vanity is part of it.

He feels he was so affronted by Chamberlain, and Chamberlain getting applause in in Munich and so on. And he has such personal contempt for Chamberlain that he just can't take him seriously Yeah. At all. But also, I think by this point, a, Hitler's off his head on gun oil. But but but, b, but, b, he has completely drunk the Fuhrer Kool Aid.

You know, he he's he now thinks all this business about I've been chosen by Providence.

Yeah. He's all into that.

You don't wanna lead everything like that. I mean, that's mad. Anyway, that spring and summer, Ribbentrop's diplomats lay the foundations. They make all these more non aggression pacts, which as you all know, Tom, are worthless with people like the Danes, the Latvians, the Estonians. We shall see, of course, what these non aggression pacts are worth.

He does a deal with Yugoslavia for its copper. He does a deal with Romania for its oil and its wheat. So these are clever deals. These are stocking up. It's like playing a board game.

It is. And, presumably, the, the player that Hitler is, you know, on the other side of the game board is France. Mhmm. He would been which a country that has traditional links with a lot of these countries Yes. Had tried to forge a kind of military alliance.

But, presumably, in the wake of Munich, it's totally shot. No credibility left at all. And I wonder also whether by this point, there is a sense across most of Europe and maybe across most of the world that democracy itself is shot.

Yeah. I think so.

That fascism is the face of the future and that, you know, the democracies with their shabby leaders in their kind of old fashioned clothes are just heading towards a scrap heap of history.

Totally there is, Tom. I think that you're absolutely right. And I think that's been running through the 19 thirties within the democracies themselves, of course. Lots all these, you know, bright young men at Cambridge who are Stalinists, for example.

Yeah. They want to be on the right side of history. And Chamberlain and D'Elhaddier are not on the right side of history.

They look stuffy. They look boring. They look dithery. They look weak. And if you're, as you say, if you're a government in Eastern Europe, looking for an ally you you say France, really?

I mean, they were great allies at Czechoslovakia. And where are they now? Whereas you think Hitler wins, you know, he judges things correctly, he's decisive, he's strong, you know, that's that's the calculation that all of us these people are making.

But also the ideology behind it. The kind of the the image of of strength and power that maybe, you know, this is the future. Yeah.

It's seductive. It's glamorous. It seems modern. Exactly right. Yeah.

Exactly. Now 1 person who has a little a little bit ambivalent is Mussolini. Mussolini doesn't want a war at all. But he's basically tricked into signing the Pact of Steel, a renewed, deepened military alliance.

I mean, honestly, I mean, if you're signing something called the Pact of Steel, you should know what you're getting yourself into.

With a load of people who've got skull and crossbones on there. Yeah.

I mean, you know, there are clues there.

But, Ribbentrop says to him, listen, don't worry. I mean, we're not thinking about war for 5 years, which is I mean, that's alright, it's Ribbentrop. And Mussolini says, oh, well, fine. Fair enough. Yeah.

We'll do it. All that summer, Hitler does his usual trick that he'd done last time of basically trying to pretend that he hasn't got any military plans at all. So he just goes on a tour of his childhood haunts in Austria. He goes to Bayreuth to listen to Wagner. I know you're a great devotee of Wagner, aren't you, Tom?

So again, a disturbing similarity.

Another pointer of comparison.

Yeah. Exactly.

He's got Unity Mitford with him.

Yeah. And you love the Mitfords. Oh my god. Yeah.

It's all stacking up. And he goes to this huge festival of, German culture in Munich, doesn't he? Which has become a kind of annual celebration of Yeah. Basically artworks. Who is it?

There's an artist who's who's called the pubic hair artist or something because he's always he's always sculpting kind of nudes, German nudes. And Goebbels is all over this, and he goes there and ogles all the women who are wearing kind of exotic German costumes and things. It's all quite odd.

And, of course, he spends loads of time in the Eagle's Nest going for walks and, like, talking to Speer about triumphal arches and watching terrible films and stuff. Meanwhile, just as in the Czech crisis, Goebbels' propaganda machine is kind of has cranked up, pouring out all these grievances. And what they will do, just as in, the Sudetenland, they'll take a genuine often a a a local grievance with a grain of truth, and then massively amplify and exaggerate it into a colossal injustice. So this time remember last time, it was a guy who was basically a PE teacher called Conrad Henline? Yeah.

And now there's a fellow called Albert Forster. He's the Nazi party chief in Danzig. He came from the same town, interestingly, as Henry Kissinger, called Firth in, Franconia. Kissinger, of course, a refugee from, from Nazi Germany. I mean, a huge part of Kissinger's makeup is is that experience.

Yeah. Anyway, there's this huge stream of stories saying, basically, you know, ethnic Germans in Poland are being beaten up. They're being attacked, all of this kind of thing. Now it is true that Poland has a much more nationalistic government than Czechoslovakia did. But as Richard Evans says in his book on the 3rd Reich, these stories are nevertheless massive exaggerations at best and complete inventions at worst.

And what Forsters goons will do is they will stage provocations to try and get a Polish counter reaction. So they take a great offense at the fact that Poles have things like customs offices and post offices in Danzig, and they're always claiming that Polish postmen and customs inspectors are kind of beating up Germans and all of this kind of thing. And the thing is that this has a very ready audience in Germany. We talked before, didn't we, in the Munich episodes about what ordinary Germans make of all this kind of thing? Do they believe it?

And I think a lot of ordinary Germans absolutely swallow this stuff. They they've been primed to swallow us actually by decades, if not centuries, of prejudice against the Poles.

But I suppose Danzig is slightly different to, say, Austria or the state and land, in that those were never part of Germany, whereas Danzig had been part of Germany. Yeah. So it'd be like for us, I don't know, Bournemouth was an open city or something. You'd think

I suppose, I mean, Danzig has Danzig had there had been top periods where Danzig had been Polish, so it had changed hands.

So maybe Berwick?

Yeah. Maybe Berwick is a good example. Danzig not let's forget, the population is 90% German. And most ordinary Germans would absolutely say Danzig ought to be part of Germany. It's bonkers that it's a free city.

They don't like the Poles. You know, they are really the 1 nationality that most Germans are united in regarding as backward and dirty and all of that kind of thing. And most people that they simply can't conceive that the Western powers would fight for Danzig. After all, you know, they didn't fight for the Sudetenland. Why would they fight for what is obviously a a German city?

That's the way they think about it. So while all that's going on, Hitler is planning this diplomatic coup. So if you're Hitler and you look at this, the 1 thing you fear most is that you would fight Britain and France in the west and Poland and the Soviet Union in the east. Now a deal with the Soviet Union, obviously, it would be a massive u-turn because so much of Hitler's ideology is based on anti Bolshevism. But all this time, Ribbentrop has been saying to him, I mean, just think if we did have a deal with Stalin, it would solve so many problems.

Is it really so outlandish? Isn't it a good idea? You know? Shouldn't we think about it? And the the good news for the Nazis is that from Stalin's point of view as well, the timing is absolutely perfect.

Because Stalin has just had this the great terror. He has just killed almost a 1000000 people in 2 years, including almost all of the top brass of the Red Army and the people who run all the munitions factories and all of the technical experts and all of these people. He's killed all these people. The Red Army is in an absolute mess, total shambles. He knows that 1 day Hitler will attack him because Hitler has been saying that for 2 decades.

He knows he's in no state to resist. So he thinks, oh, why not? I mean, why not buy ourselves a little bit more time? Because although he knows as well, of course, that Britain and France, you know, they've made informal kind of feelers about a deal with Stalin. But he knows that they despise him.

And he also thinks they're weak. Right?

I think it's that that's more important because, obviously, Hitler despises him too. I mean, everyone hates him. Yeah. But it's the perceived weakness of Britain and France, surely. Because Stalin is a strong man, and so he respects

Yeah.

Even if he fears other strong men.

The British and French do send a military mission to talk to Stalin. Have you seen this? And it was led by a man called admiral sir Reginald Aylmer Ranferly Plunkett Erniell, Earl, Drax.

It just seems disrespectful of of Stalin not to respond to a

A man with so many names.

Yes. A peace mission led by a man with so many names. Yes.

But this guy is quite a junior guy. And the French said, I think, an even more junior person. And Stalin is like, what? These people are not serious. I mean, they're never gonna give me a proper deal.

Like, it would have to answer to their parliaments and all that. This isn't they're gonna go

And that's another key thing, isn't it? Yeah. That the British and French governments do have parliaments and electorates to answer to.

Exactly.

Whereas neither Hitler nor Stalin have to worry about that. Exactly. And, obviously, communists and fascists, respectively, will be appalled at the idea of cozying up to the enemy. But who cares? They'll just have to lump it.

Yeah. Exactly. That's the thing. So Stalin, that spring, started to send out signals to the Germans. He started to make speeches attacking the West.

He sacked his long serving foreign minister, Maxim Litvinov, who was

Jewish, isn't he?

Who's Jewish and hated the Nazis and had been trying to work for years for better relations with the West. And he replaces him with Vyacheslav Molotov, named after the hammer.

So like Charles Martell?

Yeah. Like Charles Martell. Molotov means hammer in in Russian. So Molotov is the ultimate kind of style and ultra loyalist, and he's not Jewish. And the Nazis take that as a very promising sign.

Ribbentrop. You know, Ribbentrop loves this idea of a deal because, of course, a, it would stab Britain in the back, which he I mean, he hates Britain, and he can't wait. You know, what a coup that would be. But also for Ribbentrop, Ribbentrop is the ultimate courtier. He wants to cement his position as Hitler's most effective and most loyal underling, especially vis a vis his great enemy, Goring.

So Ribbentrop is kind of working very hard on this all through the summer. And on 5th August, a Soviet diplomat says to him, you know, Stalin is actually quite interested in this. You know, this could this could happen. And then they get this great breakthrough on the night of 19th August. So the first of all, the Soviets agree after months of on off talks.

They agree a trade deal with the Nazis. They will sell them raw materials in return for German manufactured goods. And then Hitler and Ribbentrop are at the Eagle's Nest, overlooking this amazing sort of, panorama of the mountains on the German Austrian border. And they get a call. Stalin would like to open talks about a deal, a non aggression pact.

I mean, we know what they're worth, but more importantly, a deal to divide up Poland between them. And he's and he's inviting Ribbentrop to Moscow to conclude the deal. Now Ribbentrop, as you can imagine, is absolutely thrilled by this. Stalin says, I'd like you to come in a week on the 26th August. And at that, Hitler's face falls a little bit when he hears the news.

He says, oh, that's very late. I really need the army to strike Poland, you know, at latest, 1st September. Because once it starts raining, that will turn the flat fields of Western Poland into a quagmire and have to be very bad for our tanks. So, really, we would ideally like this deal earlier. And Hitler does something extraordinary.

He intervenes personally. He sends a personal message to Stalin via the German embassy in Moscow. Please, can Ribbentrop come earlier to Moscow? This makes an incredible impression on Stalin. Stalin has always been treated by the West as a complete pariah, as a kind of madman, you know, an animal loose in the world of civilized human beings.

And here is Hitler, who has demonized Stalin for so long, treating him as an equal, treating him with respect, saying, asking very politely, please, can my foreign minister come a week earlier?

So a a tribute to to the efficacy of good manners.

Yes. I guess so, Tom. Because 2 days later, on the afternoon of 21st August, Stalin sends a telegram back, and he says, oh, that would be lovely. Ribbentrop will be very welcome here, in 2 days' time on 23rd August. And Hitler, inevitably, is with Albert Speer at the Eagle's Nest when he hears

Architectural chitchat.

Yeah. Balustrades or something, when he gets the news. And beer wrote the an account of this. He said, Hitler stared into space for a moment. He flushed deeply, then he banged on the table so hard that the glasses rattled.

And he exclaimed in a voice breaking with excitement, I have them. I have them. And then he called for champagne.

And who do you think the them is?

That's so I was thinking about that. I think it's Britain and France. I think at this point Or

the Poles as well?

Possibly the Poles as well, of course. But I think he is maddened with hatred now of, of the West, Hitler. Because they he feels they cheated him of his war, and then they gave the Poles their guarantee. You know, he's he's a bitter he's a he's a he's a bad man out of Hitler's home. What can I say?

Anyway, the news breaks. They announce the news in Berlin just a couple of hours later, so just before midnight

on the

So they don't

keep it secret?

No. That's This is an interesting thing. Yeah. Until I'd read up on this, this this was a revelation to me.

I'd always thought it was done with kind of back channels and

Know that the reaction to the Nazi Soviet pact actually comes before the pact is formally signed. So they announce the news. Ribbentrop will be flying to Moscow to conclude a deal with Stalin. And now some old, you know, long standing Nazis are appalled. And, actually, there are stories of people throwing down their badges outside party headquarters in Munich, Munich where the Nazi party began, people who would be very, very anti Bolshevik and would have been for 20 years, who are like, what?

The Bolsheviks are our greatest enemies, and they're throwing their badges away. But a lots of Germans actually think, oh, brilliant. Now we won't have a war with Russia. And that's such a relief. Isn't that wonderful?

You know, great news because, of course, they don't want war.

The communists, of course, are kind of they're more, I I guess, kind of ideologically principled on this kind of thing, I guess.

I think I think bewildered is the Yeah. Yeah. Bewildered and confused. If you're a Stalinist, of course, you just say, well, Stalin is the great genius. But there are definitely a lot of, communists who are proper Marxists who are appalled by this and who are really troubled by it.

But then lots of people make up excuses. They say, well, Stalin had no choice. He was abandoned by the West, all of that kind of thing. So the next day, 22nd, Hitler convenes a big summit at the, at the Berghof at the Eagle's Nest. He gets 50 senior officers and Ribbentrop.

Ribbentrop has packed his bags and is poised to fly. And Hitler says, this is a really important meeting. I don't want anyone to take any notes. It is absolutely top secret. But because it's so important, some of them write down their recollections afterwards.

So we kind of know what Hitler said. And even by his own standards, it's a it's an extraordinary performance. He says, I'd always planned for a European war, and I'd always thought we'd fight west and then east. But I've changed my mind. It's because of the economic situation, because the wheels are about to come off our economy.

And he says to them, the reason we're doing this now is because of me, because I'm actually such an extraordinary person. Everything depends on me because of my political talents. There will never again in the future be a man with more authority than I have. I mean, imagine listening to this from your boss. I could be eliminated at any time by a criminal or a lunatic.

No 1 knows how much longer I shall live. Therefore, we'll we'll have to have the war now because, I mean, I could be dead in a year. Who knows?

You'd be worried, I guess, if you were kinda human resources manager, if you heard the the boss of your organization talking like that.

You would. Now this is when he comes out with his line about Britain and France being little worms. He says, I saw them in Munich. They won't fight.

Yeah. So it's that personal contact again, isn't it? Yeah. I've looked into their eyes, and I've seen that they're wimps.

Yeah. Exactly. And then as for the deal with the Soviet Union, he says, yeah. I mean, it's a it's a it's an unusual departure for a fascist. However, he says, I know that Stalin is a very sick man.

I mean, talk about projection. Stalin, he says, is a very sick man. After Stalin's death, we'll rip up the deal, and we'll we will break the Soviet Union. And then there will begin the dawn of the German rule of the Earth. Imagine listening to that with a straight face.

I mean, obviously, these guys do listen to a straight face. Now after lunch, he outlines the plans for how they're gonna fight the war in Poland. We'll talk about that next week in Monday's episode about the war in Poland itself. So we'll just leave the speech at that point. Because this is the point when Ribbentrop leaves.

Ribbentrop excuses himself after lunch. He flies to Berlin, then he gets on Hitler's. He changes planes to Hitler's private Condor plane, and he flies to East Prussia. He spends the evening in East Prussia, and he's nervously going over his notes for the meeting with Molotov the next day. And then on the early morning of 23rd, Ribbentrop flies on to Moscow.

What an extraordinary moment this is. I mean, imagine what's going through his his mind.

Yeah.

You know? And he takes with him, by the way, Hitler's personal photographer, Heinrich Hoffman, who's a great source on this. And we'll be talking about the some of the the the comic activities with photographs later on.

Cigars, isn't it?

Cigars and photographs and and drinking. So Ribbentrop finally lands in Moscow, and he is met by sort of grim faced men with cars straight away. And he is driven directly to the Kremlin, the seat of communism on Earth. I mean, what an incredible moment this is. And he's escorted into this long sort of gilded marble hall with chandeliers and whatnot.

And waiting at the end, there's Molotov. But to his surprise, there's also another man, a a small man with very familiar features of Does he have a mustache? A gigantic mustache. He is, of course, Stalin. Now Ribbentrop didn't know that Stalin was going to be there to meet him, so he's a bit taken aback.

And Ribbentrop comes out with his sort of polished diplomatic, you know, lovely to be building a new relationship. Yeah. We're looking forward to this moment for years. And Stalin is is very relaxed and jovial. And Stalin says, we've poured buckets of of filth, he uses a much more earthy word than filth, over each other for years.

He says, but there's no reason we can't bury the hatchet now. Come on. Let's bury the hatchets. And Ribbentrop kicks off with a very, very Hitler idea. Let us stun the world with a non aggression pact to last a 100 years.

That's very doctor evil.

That's very doctor evil.

And Stalin year.

And Stalin kinda laughs. And he says, if we say this pact will last for a 100 years, people will laugh at us for not being serious. I suggest 10 years. 10 years is more reasonable. There's the difference between Hitler and Stalin.

Right?

But both of them must equally know it's not gonna last Of course they do. Within 10 years. Of course they do. Just

That's the amazing

thing. Boxing.

Absolutely, it is. So the pact is 1 thing. But, of course, the really important thing is the secret protocol to divide up Europe between them. And Ribbentrop says, here's Hitler's offer. You can have Finland.

You can have Estonia. You can have most of Latvia. You can have Eastern Poland up to the river Vyshla and the San, and you can have the Romanian region of Bessarabia, which is modern day Moldova, which, of course, they do get. And Stalin says, that's all great, but I would also like the coast of Latvia. And that's a bit of a stumbling block.

And Ribbentrop says, I'll have to I'll have to ring Hitler. I can't agree to that. I'll have to ring Hitler. Now Hitler is at the eagle's nest, and it's an extraordinary scene, actually. He's pacing up and down very nervously on the terrace.

He's very tense. His adjutant was with him, Nicholas Nikolaus von Beloff. And he described he said it was a beautiful evening, an August evening in the mountains, and the sun was setting. Von Beloff said, as we strolled up and down, the eerie turquoise colored sky to the north turned first violet and then blood red. At first, we thought there must be a serious fire behind the Untersberg, the mountain.

But then the glow covered the whole northern sky in the manner of the northern lights. I was very moved, and I told Hitler that it'd all got a bloody war.

Oh, that's nice.

That's a moving moving thing to say. And Hitler replied, that if it must be so, then the sooner the better. For the more time went by, the bloodier it would be. And at that point, the phone rings. And everybody's like, oh my god.

The phone's ringing. It's it's the news from Moscow. And Hitler picks up the phone, and he just listens in silence. He doesn't say anything. And then he puts the phone down and he still says nothing.

And then he says bring me a map.

So a map of the,

of the bull's heads. Someone brings him this map and Hitler stares at it. And then half an hour later, he's like, okay. And he rings back and he says, yes. Agreed.

Now back in Moscow, Ribbentrop puts down the phone, and he says, it's on. So they finalize the details. At midnight, Stalin's servants bring in caviar and vodka and Crimean sparkling wine.

So he's Ribbentrop would have enjoyed that. Was a sparkle viscer of sparkling wine. That's true, Adam. What's a Maybe he could have a

Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. Maybe they did a little taste

for the old supplier.

Yes. And they light up a load of cigarettes, and they start making toast. Stalin, incredibly, makes this toast. He says, I know how much the German nation loves its Fuehrer. I should like to drink to his health.

And he leaves it.

He keeps that quiet in 1943.

He does indeed. Yes. He did. He didn't talk often about that toast. Now, the the documents are ready.

They've been finalized. And they must they're prepared to sign. At this point, Hoffman, the photographer, comes in, and he sets up this huge tripod and his camera and everything. And Stalin says, hold on. Hold on.

You can't take photos like this. Like, we have to clear all the glasses away, all the caviar, because, otherwise, people will say they sign this pact when they're absolutely wasted. And that's really bad publicity. So they clear the stuff away, and then Hoffman takes the photos. And these are the photos that you see if you Google it.

So you see Molotov and Ribbentrop, very smart suited, actually, given the abuse we've given Ribbentrop about his suits. He's signed they're signing. And Stalin is in the background beaming, looking very jolly, because he's tanked up on vodka and sparkling wine in his, kind of, beige tunic.

Mustache bristling.

And then Ribbentrop rings Hitler again. Hitler, inevitably, has been watching a film with goebbels, but he's not really been enjoying it because he's too nervous. He wants to find out how it's going. And Ribbentrop says, brilliant. It has been a complete success.

We have everything we wanted. And Hitler says, congratulations. And then Hitler says, that will hit them like a bombshell.

Well, when we get bombshells in the rest of history, we generally like to take a break. So I think that is what we will do. Hello. Welcome back to the rest is history. And, Dominic, bombshell has just exploded in the form of the Molotov Ribbentrop pact.

It has.

Hitler and Stalin have divided up Eastern Europe between them. And, how does this all go down?

Well, Ribbentrop flies back to Berlin to a hero's reception, not surprisingly. Hitler hails him, says, you know, well done, mate. Brilliant. You are second Bismarck. And, of course, to Ribbentrop, that is music to his ears.

Ribbentrop and Hitler now are absolutely convinced this has guaranteed them a free hand against Poland. With the Soviet Union out, there is no way Britain and France will fight. They're they're convinced of this. Now, I mentioned the photographer, Heinrich Hoffman. He has come back to, and he's been developing his photographs of the signing, which Stalin had said clear the glasses away.

And he goes into the Reich Chancery to show them to Hitler. Hitler is obsessed with Stalin. He is absolutely obsessed. He's bombarded.

Pierre, isn't he?

Yes. I think so. Hitler said there are only 3 great men in the world. They are me, Stalin, and Mussolini. And Mussolini is definitely 3rd.

Yep. So Stalin is the other great man. And he's just fascinated with Stalin. And he says to Hoffman, does he order people? Does he order them?

Or does he cloak his orders in the guise of wishes? What about his health? Does he really smoke so much? How does he shake hands? What's his handshake like?

And then there's It's

just a shame they never met, isn't it? Oh, they did got on so well.

A lot of the Nazis, we know this from Ted Heath. Did you know this? Ted Heath went to a Nuremberg rally, the the future British prime minister, when he was on a kind of gap year in, Germany.

Yeah. Yeah. In 1938.

Yeah. And he said he met Himmler and Goring and all he said they had terrible handshakes by and large, very limp, drooping handshakes. And I would imagine Hitler had a poor handshake. Stalin, I don't know.

I think he'd have a crunchy handshake.

Stalin's a bear hug kind of man, isn't he? Yeah. The thing that Hitler is really fixated on have you seen this? It's Stalin's earlobes.

Yes. Because that's a sign of, Jewishness, isn't it?

It says, are they ingrown and Jewish, or are they separate and Aryan? And the photographer, Hoffman, says, they're separate. And Hitler apparently is delighted by that. He says, oh, that's brilliant. I'm so pleased.

I'm glad that Stalin's got Aryan earlobes. And then they get out the photographs, and Hitler's face falls to the floor. What? He says, oh, what a pity. There's not a single 1 of these photographs we can use.

And Hoffman, who's, you know, considers himself quite a good photographer, is quite, you know, displeased by this. Yeah. Yeah. Why? And Hitler says, well, in every single photograph, Stalin is smoking.

And he says the German people would take offense at this.

Because Hitler's very anti smoking, isn't he? Because he was saying in the previous episode how he spent his time, you know, wanting to ban them.

Yeah. Exactly. Hitler wanted to reduce nicotine in cigarettes. He's a health

and safety Nazi. It's a

health and safety Nazi. Exactly. Exactly. He's a nanny state Nazi. What can I say?

Hitler says, the signing of a pact is a solemn act. Which 1 would does not approach with a cigarette dangling from one's lips? Such a photograph smacks of levity. See if you can paint out the cigarettes. And so the photographs to release the press by Hoffman have the have been doctored and Starrettes will be taken out.

So it's so Orwellian, isn't it? First, they came to the cigarettes.

That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Then yes. So Stalin's reaction is, as fair to say, is a little bit less eccentric.

So Stalin met his entourage the next day. And his underlings had gone out and shot a load of duck. He loved eating duck. So they've they're eating all this duck. And Stalin's in brilliant form.

He's never been happier. And he says, you know, he's a he's a smarter man than Hitler, frankly. He says, of course, it's all a game to see who can fool whom. I know what Hitler's up to. He thinks he's outsmarted me, but it's actually me who has tricked him.

Although, having said that

Is that true? I mean, you know, Hitler's Yes. Hitler's the 1 who launches a surprise attack.

Yeah. But who laugh who's got the last laugh, Tom?

True.

I mean, yeah. Anyway, they're they're both bad men. Let's be frank about it. Now, in the rest of the world, the reaction, total shock. Among the communists, in British newspapers, in French newspapers, and so on, Neville Chamberlain is a broken man because of this.

Joseph Kennedy, the American ambassador, said, he looks like a broken man. He said he could think of nothing further to say or do. He felt that all his work had come to naught. I can't fly again because that was good only once. In other words, Chamberlain recognizes there's no possibility now for any more appeasement.

The whole constellation has changed. However, Britain will not change its approach. So this is 1 thing that Hitler really misjudged. Hitler was convinced that this marked the end of the British and French guarantee to Poland, that there's no way they would fight. But, actually, the 22nd August, the day that the news of the signing of the pact reached London, the British cabinet reaffirmed its commitment to Poland.

And they decided to send the ambassador in Berlin, Neville Henderson, to the Eagle's Nest with a letter to Hitler to say, don't get this wrong. We are not going to change. We we are still completely committed to Poland.

And how does this go down with Hitler?

Poorly, I think that's fair to say. So we talked about Henderson last time. He loves a carnation. He's an old Etonian. He's got a gigantic mustache.

He's very elegant.

Family linked to Alice in Wonderland.

Exactly. So Henderson turns up at the eagle's nest, and Hitler just starts ranting and raving about it. He can't believe that the British are doing this. Hitler says, you know, you've you we've wanted to be friends with you. You clearly hate us.

We will fight you to the last man. And Henderson is very upset by this because he has spent his career trying to get in with the Nazis. He sees that as his task.

Well, he's a great man for thinking that there are moderates, aren't there?

Yes.

So there are extreme Nazis and there are moderate Nazis. Yeah. And I think I think it's fair to say he's probably not right about that.

He's not right at all. He's a brilliant lesson in self delusion. And Henderson is really upset by Hitler's reaction. He basically storms out in, you you know, in the verge of tears or verge of a massive outburst rage or something.

I don't think someone who went to Eton in the first half of twentyth century would would blub.

You don't think so? You don't think Roy Stuart would break down in such

Yeah. Roy Stuart's Roy Stuart's a a later Italian.

Okay. But the

but the early ones.

You don't think people would

No. I mean, that's the whole point of going to Eton is you get beaten if you show kind of sing sing single trace of emotion.

Alright. Well, Henderson, I think, does is very emotional at this point because they're all his work has come to nothing. And when he goes out, do you know what Hitler does? He literally slaps his thigh. This was Hitler's great thing.

He leaps his thigh. He does chortle. He says, Chamberlain won't survive this discussion. His cabinet will fall this evening.

It does really feel like a kind of board game, doesn't it? Kinda like diplomacy or something.

It does. But also in which 1 person has now completely lost sight of reality because there's no way Chamberlain's cabinet is gonna fall apart. I mean, Hitler's he's completely deluded. So I think, at this point, Hitler has just completely lost the ability to read what's going on in Britain and France. I mean, he's all over the shop.

Because the next couple of days go by, and he gets all these reports from London. The British are actually preparing for war. They've made coastal defense preparations. They have requisitioned merchant ships. They put their air raid on standby.

In France, almost a 1000000 men have been called up to the colors. Hitler can't get his head around this. What? Why are they sticking by the mad pledge to Poland? Why haven't they yielded to reality?

And so he says, well, I'm gonna have to change tactics clearly. So on the Friday, which is 25th August, he's moved back to Berlin, and he says, get Henderson back. So Henderson comes back to the Reich Chancellery. And he says, look, I've changed my mind. I will make Britain a very generous offer.

If you let me solve this Polish problem, I promise that will be it. And I will guarantee the integrity of the British Empire. And, actually, I'll even lend you German forces to defend the British Empire as long as you will let us have some of our pre 1914 colonies back. So come on. That's a brilliant deal.

We can be friends. And he says, do you know what? It's such a good deal, actually. I think you should take my private plane and go to London and offer it to Chamberlain personally. And then he says, I mean, this is shameless.

He says to Henderson, so the thing is I actually I actually hate war. I I don't I'm not a war. I'm not a warrior. I'm an artist. He says, when this Polish business is settled Yeah.

I'll probably give up and just go back to art because that's what I really that's what I'm really all about. So, Dominic, you I mean, this whole thing on So,

Dominic, you I mean, this whole thing on, the all these episodes, tour de force, magnificent, you've covered yourself in glory. But at this point, you shame yourself. No. You've written in your notes, he, Hitler, is John Lennon.

Yeah. Just an artist. I just wanna You're gonna

slap your thigh and chortle.

Almost certainly. But once the recording is finished, I think, just privately. Just imagine and some imagine there's no religion, You know, imagine there's no countries. It's not it isn't hard to do. That's that's why Hitler said afterwards.

He just loves art. Come on. So the the irony is, of course, while Hitler is pontificating about art, you know, imagine this and that and the other. His generals are preparing to launch the invasion of Poland the very next morning. The very next morning, Saturday 26th August, everything is ready.

The final decision is delayed because Hitler is still talking to Henderson about his love of watercolors. But at last, that afternoon, he gives the order. We'll go in tomorrow, 26th, 4:30 in the morning. The British will be taken by surprise. It'll be a fait accompli.

They'll just have to suck it up. Brilliant. Everything is ready. The wheels are put in motion. The generals are ready.

And then, unbelievably, at 7:30 that evening, they get a new order from Hitler. It's off. It's canceled. What? What's happened?

What's happened? Unbelievable twist. Well, Marcelini. Marcelini, once again, has thrown a spanner in the works. Late that afternoon, he sent Hitler a message.

This war you're planning is but actually, I don't fancy this war at all. Yeah. We're not Italy is not ready for a war. We're not we don't fancy this. Hitler can't believe it.

What? The pact of steel is for nothing? He says, Massuni has betrayed me. He the Italians are behaving just like they did in 1914. You can never rely on the Italians.

So, I mean, it's alright for Hitler to rip up the pacts and treaties. But when it's done to him, he doesn't like it at all.

Yeah. On the other hand, Tom, you could say the Italians had let Germany down in 1940. So Hitler could, you know, should perhaps have been forewarned. Anyway, it's too late to stop all the preparations. The army are outraged.

I mean, they do stop most of the preparations, but some units do go ahead. So there's a there's a there's an attack on a railway tunnel in the Carpathians that is actually beaten back by the Poles overnight. The Poles wanted to order general mobilization of their own, but the British and the French say, don't do it. Don't do it. Don't provoke Hitler.

And as we will discover

next time really, I

mean, terrible for the Poles. Right? This is terrible for the Poles because it means when the war does start, they are not properly ready. So as a result of Mussolini dragging his feet, the timetable is sort of frozen. Everybody is still in place, but, you know, the war has been postponed.

And that gives Hitler 1 last chance to find a deal with Britain. Now at this point, he has given up on traditional diplomacy. You know, the stuff with Henderson isn't gonna work, clearly. Ribbentrop says, look, it's pointless. You know, they're not gonna get they're not gonna abandon Poland now.

But Goring is still hanging around in his white suit. He he kinda likes the idea of a deal. And he has this mate

because it would kind of stiff Ribbentrop. Right? Exactly.

He has this mate who's a Swedish industrialist called Birger Dalerus, who Goring uses often as a kind of go between with London. And Hitler says, well, let's maybe use this bloke, this Dalerus. So he sends this Swedish guy off to London with an with an alliance offer an alliance offer for Britain. So he still hasn't given up on that old idea.

Again, this is quite reminiscent of, the build up the First World War. It is.

I was just thinking about that about the Kaiser's various attempts at the last minute to have a deal with the British. And he says, look, Darla Rizzo's offer is, Germany gets Danzig. Germany gets the Polish corridor. Germany gets its old colonies in Africa and stuff. But it will guarantee Poland's borders, and it will do do all this deal with the British Empire, and it'll defend the British Empire.

The difference this time is Hitler says, we'll have this deal first, and then we'll only worry about the Polish business afterwards. Like, it's so important to me to be friends with with you in Britain. Now, there's a bit lot of faffing around with this offer that we don't really need to go into. Because, basically, the underlying reality is that all the time, Hitler is still making plans for the invasion. He has not given up on the invasion idea.

So after Darla Russ has been sent off to London, he gathers the Nazi top brass, the leaders of the SS, Himmler, Heydrich, Goebbels, all the all these bad guys. And Hitler at this point is really strung out. He's exhausted. He's massively stressed. His voice is cracking.

And he says, okay. We're gonna do it on Friday, 1st September. There'll be no more postponements. I made up my mind, you know, enough faffing around. This is it can happen.

And he says, this is gonna be brutal. But for as long as I live, there will never be any we would never surrender. It's interesting that at this point, even at this point, before it's even started, he's contemplating, at least in part of his mind, his own death and the possibility of defeat. And actually, Goring says to him privately at 1 point, he says, listen, we don't actually need to fight the British. Like, we don't we don't need to do this.

We don't need to gamble everything.

Because Goring has been told, hasn't he, that, the Luftwaffe lacks the capacity to bomb Britain.

And Goering has not, I think, been completely honest with Hitler about the Luftwaffe's capabilities for obvious reasons. And he says he says to Hitler, look, we don't need to do this. You know, you don't need to prove anything. And Hitler says to him, all my life, I've always put my entire stake on the table, which is true. He gambled and gambled and gambled and won and won and won

until he didn't

until he didn't. Exactly. So the evening of Monday 28th, Henderson pitches up again. He's drunk half a bottle of champagne to steady himself. Champagne, what is it with sparkling wine in these people before meeting Hitler?

And he says, look, we've got the latest stuff from from this Swedish guy. We're not gonna do a deal with you, but well, this Danzig thing is dragging on. Fine. We can talk about Danzig, but there is no way that you can invade. Because if you do that, we will fight you.

And Hitler says, okay. I'll think about it. So a day goes by. Then on the evening of Tuesday 29th, Henderson comes back for his answer. And Berlin now is in darkness.

The government in Berlin has ordered a trial blackout. There are hundreds of people waiting outside the Reich chancery because they know that this is kind of the last chance for peace. And Hitler I mean, I was gonna say unbelievably, but, of course, it's perfectly credible. He decides to try the same trick that he had done in, bad Goodesburg

With with with Chamberlain.

With Chamberlain. He decides to just completely change the rules of the game and raise the stakes. And so instead of being mister Nice, he starts ranting and raving. Oh, you're sick of you British. You don't care about Germans.

You don't care if we're being slaughtered. And he start he says, oh, it's all your you have circled Germany. You've tricked us. You betrayed us. All of this kind of thing.

Henderson, for the first time, probably, in his diplomatic career, really, with Hitler completely loses his temper. And he says, I won't listen to this language from you or from anybody. How dare you insult the British government? If you want a war, says Henderson, then you will have it. And Hitler says, well, fine.

I mean, the Poles should come send someone tomorrow to give me everything that I want. And if they don't, I'll send in my army. I'm not waiting any longer. Now, actually, amazingly, Henderson at this point, when he walks out and he's steaming with rage, but he's still, because he's an appeaser and has always been an appeaser, he's still partly you know, part of him still wants a deal. And so he actually says to London, yeah, maybe we should get the polls to negotiate.

Yeah. Maybe we shouldn't give up completely. And Chamberlain back in London says, no way. You know, we're not gonna be bullied again by Hitler. Chamberlain, by this point, has, I think, definitely run out of patience with the policy of appeasement.

He says we are not going to yield on this point. There is nothing more to discuss. So the stage really is set now. The next day, Wednesday 30th, the polls begin to mobilize. They should have done it earlier.

They're delayed at the request of the British and the French to avoid provoking the Germans. That will cost them very dear, I'm sorry to say.

Can I just ask you, they're mobilizing the expectation that Britain and France will declare war on Germany, but more than that, that Britain and France will attack Germany in the west and that this would therefore give the Poles a fighting chance to to survive? Do you think if they'd known that the British eventually were actually going to do anything, that they were just gonna just kinda sit there, might they have negotiated in that eventuality?

No. I don't think so. I think they would

They still have fought.

I think they would probably still have fought. I think they can't conceive that the British and the French won't intervene.

Right. Okay. So it's a non question.

Yeah. But I think the British and the French have sent slightly mixed signals. They've sent a military mission. They've sent some some sort of pretty pitiful supplies. The British and the French have been saying to them, you know, it'll be a long war.

They've been sort of hinting that they their intervention will not exactly be as, game changing as the polls might like. But Polish National Pride, Polish public opinion, they make it will make it very, very difficult for any kind of compromise, I would say. So where are we? Thursday 31st August 1939. First thing that morning, Hitler's sister's generals invasion will start tomorrow.

He signs the attack order just after midday, and then the con he confirms it's an hour later. That afternoon, early that afternoon, Ribbentrop arrives at the Reich Chancellery, and he says, look, no give from Britain. Yeah. It's looking pretty bleak on the British front. And Hitler says, well, I I've already given the order.

Things are rolling. And and Goebbels writes in his diary that afternoon, it looks as if the die is finally cast, an analogy that will appeal to you, Tom. And late that afternoon, a very ominous sign, they cut the telephone lines to and from the Polish embassy in Berlin. And at 11 o'clock that evening, 31st, you have the first reports of incidents on the Polish frontier. The most famous 1 is at the a radio station at a place called Gliwice, now Gliwice in Upper Silesia.

So this was basically a radio station Germany used for kind of weather forecasting. And there are reports that Polish troops have stormed a German position. They executed the staff, and they broadcast Polish nationalist slogans. Actually, what happened was the attack was organized by the SS. It was planned directly by Reinhard Heydrich.

Both the attackers and the defenders were SS men, and they were actually firing blanks. And when they left, they left 3 bodies behind them. 2 of these

bodies These are called canned goods. Canned goods. Exactly.

It's the it's the sort of, the jargon. 2 of these guys were concentration camp inmates. They've been killed with lethal injections and dressed in Polish uniforms. And the third man was a Pole, a Pole but who was a German citizen. He was a local farmer, and his name was Franzesek Honjok.

And he had been arrested the day before. He was well known for being very patriotic Pole. And he was arrested, thrown into prison, and then he was taken out of prison and put to sleep with an injection. And then he was taken asleep to the railway to the radio station, and then he was shot dead, and his body was dumped there. And he is the first of the 6,000,000 Poles who will be killed by the Nazis in the next 6 years.

So we'll get on to the the fate of Poland in Monday's episode. But just to tie up this bit of the story, the war proper began at 4:45 the next morning, Friday, 1st September, when a an elderly German battleship called the Sjesvik Holstein opened fire on the Polish military depot on the Westerplater, which is a peninsula that commands the entrance to Danzig's harbor. And the same time that happened, 60 German divisions, about 1 and a half 1000000 men, spearheaded by tank divisions began to cross the border, flood across the border from Germany into Poland. And by aft the afternoon of that day, Friday, you have the first reports of bombings, of Stuka attacks coming in from Western Poland, and the Polish army is already begin beginning to fall back from the border. Hitler addressed the Reichstag that morning at 10 o'clock.

As you described, Tom, he was wearing his Wehrmacht uniform, and he never takes it off for the I mean, presumably, he takes off to sleep.

To the shower.

Yeah. But he he never dresses again in civilian clothes. And you did that performance with gusto because that's what we associate with Hitler. But, actually, as we said, he was very nervous. He stumbled over his words.

He's very downbeat. He gets the time wrong. And even that line, looking forward to his own death, it's a hint, I think, of the doubts that must that must have been there, if only subconsciously. It was a very gloomy day in Berlin. There was no public enthusiasm at all.

The American journalist William Shirer described the, quote, astonishment, depression on the faces of the people. No excitement, no hurrahs, no cheering, no throwing of flowers, no war fever, no war hysteria. Of course, they're all still waiting to find out what Britain and France will do. And Hitler did make 1 last attempt, another attempt through this Swedish guy, Dylorus. When Dylorus went to meet him at the Reich chancery, in Kershaw describes the scene in his biography.

Hitler probably is a result of stress and tiredness.

Not not the the gun aisle.

Not the gun aisle. His his breath was so repellent. The odor from his mouth was so strong that Darlerus was tempted to move back back a

step or 2.

So, you know, Hitler's hygiene has kind of collapsed.

Salopostosis is Yeah.

Yeah. And Hitler says, you know, tell the British, give this as their last chance to avoid a fight with me. I will fight them for 10 years if I need to, which is not a very I'd

Yeah. It's not very mollient.

No. Not very mollient, and obviously, it doesn't work. The next day, the second, Britain and France, by the hour, ordered full mobilization, they begin evacuating children from the cities. Chamberlain is in talks about drawing up a war cabinet, bringing Winston Churchill back as First Lord of the Admiralty. And that evening is the evening of the very famous debate.

Chamberlain gives, as he so often does, a very ill judged speech in which he says, if the Germans pull back from Poland, maybe we could still talk to them. What a mad thing to say. And this is the moment at which famously, if the Labor leader, Arthur Greenwood, stands up to reply, 1 of Churchill's sort of allies, Leo Amory, shouts, speak for England, Arthur. And and this is a great shock to Chamberlain. He's he's he the sense that he's lost touch with the public With

his own party.

With many of his own party. And indeed with his own cabinet, because that afterwards, his cabinet say to him, look enough. It's got you've got to give an ultimatum. And Henderson goes to give the ultimatum first thing the next morning. So Sunday, 3rd September, 9 o'clock in the morning, Henderson goes to the foreign ministry in Berlin, Ribbentrop.

Do you remember when we did the the series on the First World War, all those scenes of the ambassadors crying and foreign ministers shaking hands and

Yeah.

The sense now. You know, it they're really kinda moving, actually. Yeah. Really moving. Well, Ribbentrop is cut from a very different cloth.

He will not even meet Henderson. He refuses even to see him.

And Henderson gets interned, doesn't he?

He doesn't. When when Paul

gets declared.

So Henderson has to make do with the interpreter, Paul Schmidt. So he gives him the ultimatum. As surely everybody listening to this podcast will know, the ultimatum expired at 11 o'clock. The Germans didn't reply. And a few minutes later, Chamberlain made that very famously gloomy speech.

And no such undertaking has been received. And consequently, this country is at war with Germany, you know, announcing the the beginning of the Second World War for for Britain and for France. But let's end with the interpreter, Paul Schmidt. He said, I took the ultimatum to the chancellery where everyone was anxiously awaiting me. There was something of a crush, and I had difficulty in getting through to Hitler.

When I entered, Hitler was sitting at his desk and Ribbentrop stood by the window. Both looked up expectantly as I came in. I stopped at some distance from Hitler's desk, and then I slowly translated the British government's ultimatum. When I finished, there was complete silence. Hitler sat immobile, gazing before him.

He was not at a loss, as was afterwards stated, nor did he rage as others allege. He sat completely silent and unmoving. After an interval which seemed an age, he turned to Ribbentrop, who'd remained standing by the window. And Hitler asked, what now? What now?

What now indeed? We will be back on Monday to find out what happened next. We'll be doing the story of Poland's heroic resistance, doomed resistance, and the tragedy of its fall and its fate. And if you're a member

of the Restless History Club, you can hear that episode right now. But for now, thank you, Dominic. Brilliant stuff. Goodbye. Goodbye.