Transcript of 529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)

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I felt quite fresh and was delighted with the enthusiastic welcome of the crowds who were waiting in the rain and two gave me the Nazi salute and shouted Heil at the tops of their voices all the way to the station. There we entered Hitler's special train for the three hours journey to Berchtesgaden. All the way up, there were people at the crossings, the stations, and at the windows of the houses, all hiling and saluting. We drove to the Brown house a good deal higher up the mountain. Halfway down the steps stood the Führer, bare-headed and dressed in a khake-coloured coat broad cloth with a red armlet and a swastika on it and the military cross on his breast. He wore black trousers, such as we wear in the evening, and black patent leather lace-up shoes. His hair is brown, not black. His eyes blue, his expression rather disagreeable, especially in repose, and altogether, he looks entirely undistinguished. You would never notice him in a crowd and would take him for the house painter he once was. After saying some words of welcome, he took me up the steps and introduced me to a number of people among whom I only distinguished General Keitel, a youngish, pleasant-faced, smart-looking soldier.

We then entered the house and passed along a very bare passage to the celebrated chamber, or rather hall, one end of which is entirely occupied by a vast window. The view towards Salzburg must be magnificent. But to this day, there were only the valley and the bottoms of the mountains to be seen. That was Neville Chamberlain, who was writing to his sister Ida after his trip to Hitler's mountain lair on Thursday, the 15th of September, 1938. Dominic, he seems to have been completely obsessed with what Hitler was wearing.

Yes.

Amazing attention to detail.

I suppose it's a novelty for Chamberlain, Hitler's shoes.

Yes. Black patent leather, lace up shoes.

Yeah. You would take him for the house painter he once was. Which he wasn't, was he? No, he was a house painter. He was a postcard painter. The fact that Chamberlain is describing it in such banal detail to his sister, this extraordinary meeting is a reminder of an unprecedented moment it is, right? People don't normally do this. So in the last episode, the first of our two Part series on Munich. We talked about how rare it is for European statesmen to do this, to fly to each other's countries at a drop of a hat for an emergency summit. This didn't happen in the build up to the first World War. Chamberlain But Chamberlain is doing something extraordinary here. He's boarded his plane. We ended last time, a Heston era drone. He's launching this remarkable diplomatic coup in a desperate attempt to avoid war over Czechoslovakia, a war that Hitler is planning a launch on the first of October, which is just two weeks away.

And which Chamberlain doesn't know that, of course.

No, Chamberlain doesn't know that at all. So just on Chamberlain, his flight, Chamberlain left with the goodwill of the British press ringing in his ears. Every newspaper in Britain said it was brilliant that Champlin was doing this. They were so excited. The news from Paris, Paris sent him messages to support the French are delighted that he's doing it. Crucially, I think for Britain, the Dominions, that is Australia, Canada, and so on, New Zealand. They have made it clear to him they are very, very reluctant to be dragged into a war in Central Europe.

Because if the British don't want to die for Czechoslovakia, I guess if you're in Wellington or Sydney, I mean, It would even matter.

Exactly. So off he goes with their goodwill. It's actually not his first flight. This is one of the things that people think about Chamberlain that is wrong.

He got up with the future George VI, hadn't he? At some air show or something. Is that right?

At an industrial fair in Birmingham. That's so Chamberlain. That's so Chamberlain. It is. They'd only gone circled the field and then landed again. But he had been in a plane before.

It was great fun.

Anyway, he's traveled this time with his closest aid, who is a guy called Boris Wilson, who is one of the civil servants, who is one of the key architects of the appeasement policy. Basically, let's solve the European issue by giving into what their more reasonable demands. That's how they see it. They have ham sandwiches and they drink whiskey on the flight. I think that's an excellent combination, actually. I think more airlines should offer that as an option. It's a smooth flight, but then they get into Munich and there's a bit of a storm, a bit of turbulence. Oh, it's an omen there. Yes. It is an omen, yeah. They are escorted by a German plane to the ground. Chamberlain comes out of the plane and he's very happy. He's smiling for the cameras. He's very confident. In his own mind, I think this is really important for people to get this in their heads about Munich. Chamberlain is not doing all this reluctantly, grudgingly, like he is the victim in all this.

He's seizing the moment.

In his mind, he is the star. He is the hero of the hour. He is the man of destiny, the modern politician who has seized European history by the scraff of its neck.

The auditor of the continent's fate.

That's exactly how he sees himself. Although that said the anti-appeasement MP Harold Nicholson, said that Chamberlain Horace Wilson arrived in Germany with, and I quote, the bright faithfulness of two curates entering a pub for the first time.

That's a brilliant description.

Which I think is pretty close to the mark. You get a sense of that from Chamberlains from that reading, right? There's a big-It's very pooterish quality. Yeah. There were lots of cars, people were saluting. Hitler had some smart shoes on.

He wore black trousers.

He arrives at the Berghof, Hitler's Eerie, his Eagle's Nest. It's pouring with rain. It's very cloudy, which is why he says he can't see Salzburg. He's not the first British visitor to go there.

David Lloyd George. And the Duke of Windsor, who had been with the eighth. Notoriously, he'd been.

He had been there, exactly. And Hitler, as he describes, he's waiting from the steps. They shake hands. If you look at the photos, they both look very jolly. Chamberlain, of course, has his umbrella and his hat. He obviously makes this remark about Hitler looking a house painter. Actually, he's even more damning. I mean, British snobbery is a great theme of these episodes. When he goes back to the cabinet later on, he says, Hitler wasn't, I quote, the commonest little dog he had ever seen, though it was impossible not to be impressed with the power of the man. So he despises Hitler, and yet at the same time, he recognizes that there is a demonic quality to Hitler. There, as we will see, I think Chamberlain completely misreads the balance of power between himself and Hitler. Anyway, he's arrived at the Eagle's Nest. Hitler says, Come into my study. They go into his study. Ribbentrop, who is hanging around, is not invited in.

So that would have improved his mood.

No, he hates Jain Berlin, hates Britain, loves German sparkling wine, but hates Britain. He's not allowed into his very cross. For three hours, they talk, and there's the storm raging outside, very Wagnerian. Hitler is speaking quite softly. It's all been translated by his interpreter, who's a guy called Paul Schmidt. He's going on and on about how badly the Sudeten Germans are treated. And Chamberlain says, look, if you will rule out force, I will consider anything to make you happy. Now, we can talk about any solution, but you must not fight. Hitler, at this point, loses his temper, and he says, well, I mean, you talk to me about force, he says, but Benech and the Czechs, they're already using force against my countrymen in the Sudetenland. I will not accept this. I will settle this question, all this thing. And then he starts a trouble with Hitler, he can't control himself.

He goes off on a rant, doesn't he?

He goes on a massive He's off on one. He says, I don't care if there's a world war. If I want to settle this, I'd rather have a world war, frankly. Let's have a world war. And Chamberlain is very cross at this point. Chamberlain does not give in to him. Chamberlain is not a wimp and a weed. Chamberlain says, Well, if you think like that, then I've completely wasted my time. There's no point in coming. He says, If that's your intention, why did you have me come into Berkter's garden at all? Under these circumstances, I think it's better if her leaves straight away. And amazingly, Hitler backs down at this point. People don't normally talk like this to Hitler. Hitler says, Well, let's go back to your previous thing. You said you would grant self-determination to the sedate and Germans. Well, maybe we could. Maybe let's talk about how that would work in reality. And Chamberlain obviously thinks to himself at this point, You stand up to this bloke, and he will back down. He will be reasonable.

How are we getting this? Is this from Schmidt or Hitler or from Chamberlain?

This is a combination of… Schmidt wrote memoirs later on where he talked about all this. I mean, Schmidt is an amazing source, but also Chamberlin reports all this to his cabinet, and he also writes about it to his sisters, so the letter to Ida that we began with. So we get different- So there is a possibility that he might be slightly digging up his- Oh, I think throughout this, Chamberlain is definitely digging himself up a bit. I don't think there's any doubt about that. In Chamberlain's version of the conversations, he is always the star, and he is playing Hitler, whereas I think in reality- It's the other way around. It's the other way around. Anyway, they agree, Chamberlain will go back to Britain and we'll talk to his cabinet, and Hitler says, Fine, I'll wait for that and I won't order any precipitant military action. And so Chamberlain goes off and he goes down and stays at a hotel down at the bottom of the mountain in Bertha's Garden. Now, Chamberlain thinks, Great, I've got a good result. Hitler But once Chamberlain's gone, is delighted. He's rubbing his hands with glee, literally rubbing his hands.

And he says to Ribbentra, Well, I've got Chamberlain to give me this Sudatenland. He says, It's win-win. If the Czechs refuse and won't go along with this, then we'll have a war. If they say yes, then I'll take this to Datenland, and maybe I'll just come back for the rest of the Checs to back here later.

They all think that Chamberlain is a fuddy daddy old bloke with an umbrella, don't they? They do indeed. They're all laughing at him and thinking he's ridiculous. Hitler does make an offer to say that he might go to London, but he's worried that he will be heckled by British Jews.

He'll be poorly treated in his own mind, exactly. So he never does.

So that never happens.

No, I think probably best for Britain's image that we never had Hitler over.

He went to Liverpool, didn't he?

Yeah. So the thing about Hitler's offer here is that it's quite a departure from what he previously wanted. Up to this point, he's been talking about the Sudate land, merely as a pretext to get the whole of Czechoslovakia.

He doesn't just want the sedation land. He wants to break up the whole of Czechoslovakia.

But now he's saying, Well, maybe I will just take the sedation land and I'll come back for Czechoslovakia, for the rest later. So To that extent, he has slightly blinked. Anyway, Chamberlain goes back to London. Everyone says, Oh, you've done brilliantly. Well done. What a tremendous man you are. He goes straight in to brief the cabinets. Here, I think it's sometimes attempting to just be unremittingly hostile to Chamberlain. But here is a point where I think it's very difficult to be anything but hostile because he clearly has completely misread the situation because he says, I've met Hitler. I'm absolutely convinced that Hitler's objectives are strictly limited. He says, I believe Hitler when he says he only wants to bring German speakers into the right- It's like George Bush gazing into Vladimir Putin's eyes.

Seeing a good man.

This is exactly what he says. He says, Well, in spite of the harshness and ruthlessness I thought I saw in his face, I got the impression that here was a man who could be relied upon when he had given his word. I mean, given what we know about Hitler, so they know about the light of the Long Knives, they know about the Anshelus, they know all this. That's a mad thing for Chamberlain to say.

Well, also, the other thing is, what about the checks at this point? Because they're not present at this meeting, which is deciding the fate of their country. Again, I looked this up, and checks, so leading checks, are describing everyone involved in this in understandably very abusive terms. They describe Horace Wilson as a sow, They refer to the French foreign minister as the swine. There's a lot of porcine-based imagery. They refer to Chamberlain as the old man. One of them writes, The Chamberlain government is treating our head of state as if he were N chieftan ruling some troublesome colonial tribe.

Yeah, the Czechs, they feel absolutely furious.

And they're right. I mean, the Nazis are obviously behaving in a very colonial manner. The British are as well. It's like, let's draw a line on the map here and whatever.

Yeah. I mean, you could say exactly. If your Czech listens to this podcast, So you're like, the British are behaving with complete arrogance here. They're just basically signing half our country away. I mean, that's the story of Munich, isn't it? The checks, the story the next few days is actually really simple. The British, with very enthusiastic French backing, say to the Czechs, Right, you got to give them the sedate land. And no, you can't. You probably shouldn't even organize a referendum. Just hand it over. That's the quickest thing to do.

Here's my question. Couldn't the checks have fought on anyway? They've got all this industrial hinterland. They've got arm They've got this incredible Maginot Line in the mountains. Very, very impressive, which they will lose if they hand over the sedate land because it's on the flank of the sedate land. Why don't they just fight? Particularly because the German economy is on the point of collapse at this point.

Because, well, first of all, they don't know that about the German economy, but also they will lose. The Germans have done their war games. They're pretty confident they can win in a matter of weeks.

But they're going to lose anyway.

I guess they think They're being put under enormous pressure by their supposed friends. Be reasonable. Give them the Sudetenland. It's full of German speakers anyway.

But the thing is, with those defenses, they would have had perhaps a chance. If they surrender those defenses, they haven't got any chance at all.

Tom, you're quite right. You are quite right. And lots of listeners to this podcast will no doubt say you were right. I think it's because they think, given that we'll lose either way, maybe if we get an international guarantee, we give them the Sudetenland and then we get a guarantee by the French and the British.

You've made comparisons with Russia and Ukraine. I mean, everyone in the West assumed that Ukraine would lose the moment the Russians crossed the border. The Czechs seem in a stronger position to me than the Ukrainians.

Yeah, and the The Czechs are arguably in a stronger position than the Poles were a year later.

For sure.

Poland, that took about a month. Could the Czechs have held out for two months or longer? I mean, ultimately, I think the Germans would have won. And the Czechs with no allies. That's a big ask.

I suppose. They've got the Hungarian and the Poles sniffing around as well, haven't they?

Yeah. Your neighbors fancy a bit of you as well.

I just wonder, though, because the tragedy of this is that they are very, very impressively defended. They have to give all that up.

Yeah, of course. Because what happens is that basically after a few days, they give him under unrelenting French and British pressure. On the 21st of September, they get a message from Prague, the Czechoslovak government, sadly, accepts French and British proposals, but they say that on the condition that you will do everything to safeguard our vital interests, i. E. The Sudaisman will be given away, but you will maybe give us a guarantee, you'll give us a pledge, you'll give us something anyway.

Yeah, which would obviously not be worth the paper it's written on.

Well, that's the thing, isn't it? Meanwhile, what's Hitler been doing during all this? He has been doing his usual thing, which he does when he's stressed. He has massive lions, watches these terrible films.

Works out holes in flagpoles.

Exactly. Does all this thing. He thinks that the Czechs probably won't give him what he wants. But he now, having seen Chamberlain, he thinks, Hey, that guy's not going to fight. That guy's never going to go to war. So he says to Goebbels, I think we can probably push for a bit more, actually. I think that's up the ante. So Let's get to the 22nd of September. Now we welcome back to the Rest is History. A great theme of all our series about Germany between the Wars, which is the spa hotel theme. So people will remember we had a lot of spa hotels in the last season, particularly It was actually the Night of the Long Nives, wasn't it?

Which was all based in spas, pretty much. Weddings and spas.

Well, it's like a fan favorite location. We're revisiting one of the Night of the Long Nives spa hotels because the next meeting between Chamberlain and Churchill is scheduled for a spa hotel in Bad Gordesberg on the Rhine River near Bon. The whips of sulph.

Yeah.

Enormous sweating Germans beating each other with birch twigs or whatever they do.

Mugs of hot water.

Yeah. Drinking like Filthy water laughing at nothing. Just dreadful. Anyway, Chamberlain lands at Cologne. Cologne Airport, just after midday, he's got his umbrella as it's traditional. He has to inspect a detachment of SS troops, then he's driven to this hotel on the right bank of the Rhine, the Petersburg Hotel. It's been decorated for him by Ribbentrop, who stuffed it, I read, with fruit cigars, hydranges, and Oda Cologne.

So common.

Yeah, exactly. That He turned up in this load of Oda Cologne. That's common. That's just a part.

Nicky Haslin would hate that.

Hitler was on the other bank of the right, a fan favorite, the Dresen Hotel. This was where he had planned the murder of Ernst Rome.

It's a happy memory for him.

But he's in terrible form, Tom. He's all nervous. Chambers coming. The journalists, journalists are there, the place is swarming the press, and they see him looking strained and twitching. And it's at this point that they start a rumor, some of the press, the German press, actually, that he choose the carpet. So they nickname him the tepichfresser, which means the carpet biter. And this becomes a big nickname for Hitler in the 1930s, 1940s. Among the press, people say, oh, Hitler. It's always biting the carpet. Anyway, so Hitler's there biting the carpet. Finally, that afternoon, Chamberlain comes over to the spa Hotel to the Dresen. Chamberlain is delighted with himself. Chamberlain thinks, I've done a brilliant thing here. I've done a great bit of work. The checks are given in. You can have the in data land. We will give a guarantee to the Czechoslovakia for the rest of its borders. And he says, Maybe it would be a nice thing if you signed a non-aggression pact with Prague as well to show your good intentions and then job done. We can all go home. Hooray. Brilliant day work. And Hitler says, I'm sorry, actually, I've changed my mind.

The circumstances have changed and I have more demands. He says, My friends in Hungary and Poland also have territorial demands on Czechoslovakia. Slovakia, and I need them to be satisfied. Actually, now that I think about it, I don't really want to wait for the Czechs to give me the Sudetenland because they're mistreating our people every hour. I'm actually going to send in... I would like to send in my army right now, please. That's my plan. I'm actually just going to go for it. Chamberlain, he sits there and the blood drains from his features. He says, Yes, but Reich Chancellor, exactly. He is outraged by this, and he basically storms off back to his hotel and refuses to come out again. So they're in their rival hotels.

Power play.

Very much. Chamberlain doesn't show up the next day, the next day's meeting. He sends a letter instead, and he says- A firmly worded letter. A firmly worded letter. He says, British public opinion will not stand for this. This is very poor. He says, Also, the checks will fight you if you try to go in without a deal. Hitler sends him a letter back, quite a polite letter, actually, by Hitler's standards, and eventually, they agree that they will meet that evening. So back at Hitler's Hotel. Chamberlain goes in and Hitler says, I've changed my mind. Actually, they can have four days. They've got to be out on the 28th, and then I'm going in. They've got to be out. Otherwise, it's war. Chamberlain is very shocked at this. And then another twist. We do like a twist in this series. A man comes in with a note for Hitler. Hitler opens this note and he says, My God. The Checs have mobilized their army. And there's this long silence. And Chamberlain, apparently, thought that Hitler was just going to go absolutely beserk and order an invasion right then and there on the spot. Then Hitler says, Fine.

They can have a bit more time. They have to be out by the first of October. I'll give them more days.

Because this seems the great tragic moment. The Checs have shown their determination. They've mobilized. They've presumably occupied all these fortresses. It just seems awful that they then just surrender it.

Yeah. You're taking this very personally, Tom, and not unreasonably. I just feel it's a terrible thing.

I mean, it's It's a terrible story, and we behave so badly, although obviously not as bad as the Nazis.

No, it's all important to stress that, I think. We're not the chief villains in this. No. And of course, it sells this to Chamberlain by appealing against Chamberlain's vanity. He says to him, This The question that I'm making that they can have till the first of October, I'm only making this for you because of how much I respect you. I wouldn't make this for anybody else. And of course, he loves this because he thinks, I am the star of the show. I have once again pulled off this coup. So Chamelen goes back to London, Hitler goes back to Berlin. Hitler spends that next day, which is a Sunday, strolling in the gardens of the Reich's Chancellor of Goebbels. And he says, Look, what we're going to probably end up with now is we'll get the Sudetenland, we'll probably have to leave it at that, and then we'll come back next year or whenever for the rest of Czechoslovakia. Meanwhile, Chamberlain is meeting his cabinet, and many of them are actually really shocked. They're much more shocked than Chamberlain was that Hitler had been asking for more. Hitler had changed the terms of the game. And they say, well, what we'll do is we'll send to Horace Wilson to Chamberlain's right-hand man, civil servants, send him back to Berlin, and we'll tell Hitler, Look, we're stressed to him, you cannot attack the checks.

We have to get the deal. If you use force at all, then the French will enter the war and Britain will support France. They are taking a firmish line.

And they're starting They're starting to get ready for war themselves, aren't they? They are, exactly. The French are sending troops up to the Majiné Line. There is a sense that France and Britain are gearing up to take a strong position.

Yes, absolutely there is. 26, 17th of September, this is when they start making really serious preparations, anti-aircraft batteries are being called up. There's thoughts about evacuating people from cities.

Gas master children and things.

Exactly. The next day, Monday the 26th, Horace Wilson gets to Berlin, gets in the afternoon. He finds Hitler in a very peculiar mood because Hitler has got a big speech that evening at the Sport Palast in Berlin.

Sport again. It's this endless PE theme.

Yeah, exactly. It's going to be all these people in the stadium an indoor stadium.

With medicine balls.

Hitler is going to address. It's 20,000 people is going to address them. Hitler is in a very grumpy mood. He says to Horace Wilson, I'm sick of all this, like negotiations and hotels and stuff. He says, So the checks have to be out by the first of October, or if they're not, I'll attack them. And he says, and I quote, If France and England want to strike, let them go ahead. I don't give a damn. He says to Wilson, Do you not think that we want to fight? Come and see my speech. Wilson goes along to this speech. Hitler is absolutely ranting and raving like a lunatic. William Shira, the American journalist who we've quoted a few times, he was there and he said, Hitler was shouting and shrieking in the worst state of excitement I've ever seen him in with a fanatical fire in his eyes. He's screaming about German-dom and the Germans being oppressed and we will stand and fight and all this thing. His audience, who are keen Nazis, go absolutely beserk. Every sentence they applaud, and at the end, they chant for minutes, Führer, be viel, wir folgen, leader, command, we will follow.

This quite chilling scene.

So not the way that Chamberlain would address the good people of Birmingham.

That's not at all.

I've picked up a rather nice tea cozy.

Yeah, exactly. People of Birmingham would enjoy an indoor arena. They What's he doing? The NEC in Birmingham.

Villa Park.

It's not indoors, though, is it? It's not the same.

No, it's not, I suppose.

Anyway, this is spiraling off. The next day, Horace Wilson goes back to the Reich Chancery and he says, Look, I've had a new message from Chamberlain. Chamberlain says, Don't use force. If you don't use force, we will guarantee, Britain will guarantee that the checks will clear out the Sudaten land. So Britain is actually really now- Yeah, get out of your, well,prepared fortifications.

Yeah.

Britain is letting itself down, I think, at this point, Tom, it's fair to say. Hitler actually is very sulky at this point. He says, I don't care what Britain does. I don't care what you do. All I care about is the checks have got to be out by the first of October. He says, Look, I want an answer in two days. Are they going to clear out or not? If they do not clear out, he says, I will smash the checks. He repeats that two more times. I will smash the checks. Wilson, who is a very tall man, he draws himself up to his full height. He says, I am warning If you do that, and if France feels onerbound to fight in defense of its obligations to Czechoslovakia, the United Kingdom would feel obliged to support her. Hitler just stares in with his cold blue eyes and he says, If France and England strike, let them do so. It's a matter of complete indifference to me. I am prepared for every eventuality. It is Tuesday today, he says, and by next Monday, we shall all be at war. War.

Yet another cliffhanger. I mean, you've promised cliffhangers, and they keep coming. Like fire from a machine gun, from a brengum, perhaps. Let's take a break now, and when we come back, we'll find out if Britain and Germany do end up at war in 1938. Hi, everyone. It's Cathy here from the Rest is Politics US. Anthony Scaramucci and I want to tell you about our new series that looks at one of the darkest days in modern American history, the capital riots of January the sixth.

Four years have passed since Donald Trump supporters stormed the Capitol building and tried to overturn the 2020 election results. And Cathy and I are going to explore the tensions and the personalities at the heart of that storm.

We're going to look at the whole story, starting off with, of course, the 2020 election result itself, Joe Biden's victory, Donald Trump's attempts to undermine that result right up until January the sixth and those horrifying scenes that all of us watched on television back then. So don't miss it. Go and search the rest is politics US, wherever you get your podcast to hear just how Donald Trump tried to defy American democracy. We've included a clip from the series for you to listen to at the end of this episode. First of all, I must say something to those who have written to my wife or myself in these last weeks to tell us of their gratitude for my efforts and to assure us of their prayers for my success. Most of these letters have come from women, mothers or sisters of our own countrymen. But there are countless others besides, from France, from Belgium, from Italy, and even from Germany. It has been heartbreaking to read the growing anxiety they reveal. If I felt my responsibility heavy before to read such letters has made it seem almost overwhelming. How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas masks here because of a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing.

It seems still more It is possible that a quarrel which has already been settled in principle should be the subject of war. But as long as war has not begun, there is always hope that it may be prevented. And you know that I am going to work for peace to the last moment. That is Neville Chamberlain, of course, Unmistakable Tones, addressing the British people on the night of the 27th of September 1938 with a great rousing piece of oratory that deserves to stand beside. The address of Henry IV before the Battle of Ashencore, the colors rung up by Nelson before the Battle of Trafalgar, ringing stuff. Listen to that. Yeah, he's not the most stirring of- No, listen to that.

You're not going to reach for your gun and rush to the battlefront, are you? I mean, Taborlin He was never a war leader. He said explicitly, I am a man of peace to the depths of my soul. Armed conflict between nations is a nightmare to me. He's completely upfront about that. Frankly, if you've been through the Great War, that's a completely reasonable position to take.

Because that famous line, how horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas miles here because of quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing, very famous phrase and always used to condemn him. But there he is absolutely articulate contemplating the mass of people in Britain feel. Yeah, absolutely. And that when Churchill, for instance, who is the most famous anti-appease, that says that what Britain is contemplating is shameful, they don't want to hear him say that.

No, I think that's absolutely right. I think Because people probably deep down know that it's shameful. And yet at the same time, they think we must do anything to avoid a rerun of the Great War.

It would be worse, wouldn't it? They think it would be worse. It would be London and other cities would burn.

Exactly. Now, even as Chamberlain is preparing that speech, people are queuing up for gas masks in British town halls and village halls. The first children, blind children, are being evacuated from London. They've installed anti-aircraft batteries on Westminster Bridge. There is this sense that a war that nobody wants is coming and will happen within days. Interestingly, the mood in Germany is very similar. So that same day, the 27th, that Chamberlain made that speech. Hitler had arranged for a motorized division to pass through Berlin towards the Czech border. And this was basically, he wanted really to impress the diplomatic core with Germany's readiness for war and Germany's war enthusiasm. There's an amazing description of it by William Shira, the journalist we've mentioned a lot, and he talks about how the motorized division goes through the tanks or the armor cars or whatever they are, and people won't look at them. People turn away. They duck into the subway. They don't cheer. There is total silence. He says it was one of the most striking demonstrations against war that I've ever seen. Actually, Goebbels and the Nazi High Command, they're all quite disappointed with the Berlin reaction.

But actually, even in the Nazi High Command, there is massive anxiety, isn't there? So Ribbentrop, he's all in favor of it. But other members of the Nazi High Command are thinking, Oh, not really not sure about this. Yeah.

War with Britain and France, really? Are we ready?

Also in the German army. They're really nervous about it. The figures on that is that on Germany's Western flank, they are hugely outnumbered by the French army.

Yeah, as they would be in 1939.

But in 1939, the Western Allies did not have an independent Czechoslovakia with strong frontier defenses. That's right.

Well, we'll see about this point about the Nazi High Command is a really important one, and it's about to produce another of these twists in the story. So the next day is Wednesday, the 28th of September. The House of Commons in London holds an emergency debate. And at this point, most people think we will probably be at war, could be within hours, because if Hitler gives the go ahead, France will feel honourbound to defend Czechoslovakia, and we will feel honourbound to fall in behind France. So Chamberlain is giving this enormous speech, this slightly plodding speech to these fellow MPs explaining the whole backstory, all the negotiations with Hitler, all being for nothing, all this thing. And And then there's an amazing... I mean, it really is an amazing moment. He has passed a note. It comes down the chain along the bench.

A piece of paper.

A piece of paper. So John Simon, who's sitting next to him, hands in this piece of paper. And it's news from the British ambassador in Berlin, and he stops talking. He reads it, he pauses, he clears his throat, very theatrical. Then he says, I have something further to say to the house. He says, I've got an invitation. I have an invitation from Herr Hitler to meet him in Munich tomorrow morning. He's also invited Signor Mussolini and Monsieur Deladier. Signor Mussolini has accepted, I've no doubt, Monsieur Deladier, he's the French Prime Minister, will also accept, I need not tell you, he says, what my answer will be, as in I'm definitely going to go. When people hear this, there's this colossal roar of relief.

Peace in our time.

People are literally He's shouting because people credit Chamberlain with this. They say he wanted to... He called for peace to the last moment, and Hitler has blinked. And they are cheering. They're waving their order papers. People are literally shouting, Thank God for the Prime Minister. Hurrah for the Prime Minister and all this thing. The debate is brought to a premature conclusion. People are crowding around Chamberlain. They pat him on the back. Actually, the last person to go up and shake his hand is Winston Churchill, who says to him, Godspeed. And off because he's going to go off on this mission to try and bring peace to Europe. Actually, what lies behind this is an intervention from a character who's well known to our listeners. He's been very quiet in the last few episodes. I think it's fair to say- He's been off hunting. A bad man, but a memorable man, because we finally welcome back to the rest of his history, the sweating, white, suited bulk of Hermann Goering.

It's around this time that the Italian Foreign Minister bumps into Goering and finds in him a slight suggestion of Al Capone.

Goering, at this point, is an absolutely enormous man. If you see him in this suit, this The suit is like multiple sizes too small for him.

He's got all kinds of diamond-studded tie pins in the shape of swastikas and things.

Yeah. So Goering, who's a sweaty man as it is, he's been sweating like a beast for the last few days because he's in a massive funk about the idea of a European war. He thinks that European war is bonkers. We're going to get this to date and end. What do we want to fight France and Britain for? He hates Ribbentrop with an absolute passion. He keeps saying to Ribbentrop, Stop asking for a war, you fool. At one point, they have a massive row. Göring says, Well, I know what war is. He says, If Hitler wants a war, I'll be on the first plane over Britain. But he says to Ribbentrop, I'll make sure you're strapped in next to me on that plane. Imagine if you were on that plane. What a terrible nightmare that is. Who am I going to be sitting next to you?

He's so large, isn't he? That he's going to crash the plane.

I'm in the middle of the three between Göring and Ribbentrop. What a nightmare. Anyway, what actually happens. Gurin goes behind Hitler's back. He sends messages to Mussolini and informal messages to London and Paris. And he says to Mussolini, I think if you call for a peace conference, you're Hitler's ally. Hitler will have to go along with it. Actually, if Mussolini calls for a peace conference, it's a brilliant way for Hitler to back down a bit on the war thing without losing too much face. He will look like a person who in the final analysis was prepared to be reasonable because he gave in to his great pal's request. This is exactly what happens. Earlier that day, the Italian ambassador had gone to see Hitler and said, Oh, the Ducey thinks you could postpone the invasion, have one more meeting with the British, invite the French along. And Hitler is trapped. When he could ignore Mussolini completely, but that would risk his alliance with his biggest ally in Europe. So Hitler says, Yeah, fine.

Whatever. No.

All right. So that is the cue. That is what lies behind the infamous Munich Peace Conference, which begins the very next day. I think at this point, we've been leading up to Munich, but it's actually worth pausing to make a point that I think is Most often lost. If you've been listening to all their story, it should be obvious at this point that Munich is not the great turning point.

No, because the betrayal has already happened.

The British and French have already basically told the Czechs to give over the Sudetenland and made it very clear they will not fight for the Sudetenland. Actually, what's happened at Munich is not Chamberlain and Deladier backing down. It's Hitler backing down. It's Hitler not forcing his war on the Czechs and on the world because of Göring and Mussolini He's still genuinely going behind his back. Chamberlain is not going to give away anything that he hadn't given away weeks earlier, actually.

And this is fatal for Hitler's willingness in future to listen to anything that Göring has to say on foreign policy. So he calls him an old woman, doesn't he?

Exactly, he does.

Furious about it.

Hitler feels cheated. And this will run through the rest of this episode and indeed next week's episodes, Hitler's sense of being cheated of his war. Now, Chamberlain doesn't get this at all. Chamberlain still thinks, I'm the star of this story. I mean, everyone in Britain treats him like he's the star of the story. When he flies out the next day, the whole cabinet comes to the aerodrome to see him off. The high commissioners of Australia, Canada, Ireland, and South Africa They all come to see him off. Godspeed, good luck, all that thing. They think he is the architect of this, which he absolutely isn't. And Chamberlain loves it. He has this quotation to the cameras. When I was a little boy, I used to repeat, If at first you We don't succeed, try, try, try again. That's what I'm doing. When I come back, I hope I will be able to say, as Hotspur says in Henry IV, Out of this nettle, danger. We pluck this flower. Safety.

Of course, Hotspur lost the subsequent battle.

He did indeed. They're not a good oma. It's not a good oma. On the other hand, it's nice to think we once had prime ministers who would randomly quote from Henry IV.

Yeah, I can't imagine Starmer doing that.

No, I can't see Starmer doing that. As soon as he lands in Munich, the conference opens straight away. They're meeting in Hitler's Munich headquarters, the Führerbau, it's called, which is this huge neoclassical building that was built especially for the Nazi Party. It's not a hotel, but it's basically- Got that vibe. It's got that vibe. It's full of marble and flowers. I'm sure Ribbentrop has sprayed it with Eau de Kaleine. Yeah, of course.

Champagne.

The delegates all go straight up to Hitler's private study. They're sitting around this little table beneath with a portrait of Bismarck.

Presumably, there's a famous conference, isn't there, where Disraeli goes?

Yeah, Berlin.

Disraeli is seen as the guy who has bearded Bismarck in his lair and sorted Europe out. That must surely be on Chamberlain's mind that he's been playing that role.

Because that's where the Peace with honor, peace in our timeline comes from. He's quoting Disraeli after 1878, I think it was. They're around this table. Hitler is there, Mussolini is there, Édouard de Laudier We haven't mentioned him. He had actually fought at the Battle of Verdon, so he's a serious person, but he's very, very miserable throughout all this. Everyone said he looked like a snail, which I can see, actually.

I gather Hitler and Goebbel thought he was more impressive than Chamberlain, though. Did they? May not be saying much, but they thought he was...

Well, I mean, who would ever disagree with Hitler and Goebbel? What tremendous judges of character they are.

But they'd have a sense of who they thought were.

I suppose they would, yeah. They would. Now, of course, the people who aren't there, the Czechs, No one's invited the checks. Hitler has said, there's no way the checks are coming. And the checks are outraged at this. And Chamberlain said to Edward Bernesh, the Czech President, well, I'll represent you. I mean, that's classic British arrogance, isn't it? The conference It was actually, I didn't really know this about the Munich conference until reading up on it. It was a complete shambles. It was like German efficiency, it was not. They didn't have enough pens and pencils. They forgot to bring any paper. It was a complete mess, and the phones didn't work properly. Ribbentrop going mad about the phones not working. He said it was a great embarrassment for Germany. And the British had to go back and use the phones in their hotel because the phones didn't work properly. Anyway, as we said, I think the weird thing about the Munich conference is so well known, but it's such a non-event because it's basically just nothing to decide, really. They've decided. They've already decided. Hitler is going to take this to data land. Britain and France are going to let him do it, and that's it.

It takes them 13 hours to go through all the technicalities. Chamberlain and Deladier are obviously a little bit downbeat. Hitler's just bored. He doesn't speak any language but German, so he can't understand what's going on. But I tell you who does speak a lot of languages, who is a real master of tongues? Like you. Very like me. Very similar people.

Journalist. Yeah. A certain strut. Thanks.

Physical resemblance. I mean, come on. Mussolini speaks German, he speaks English, and he's fluent in French. Mussolini is doing a bit of translating. He's having a great time. Is that how he's doing it? He's doing it like a guy from a restaurant in New Jersey. Yeah.

Welcome. So at about two o'clock in the morning of the 30th of September, the deal is done.

The Czechs will have 10 days to get out of the Statenland. 10th of October, the Germans will march in.

When you say the Czechs, you mean it's not just the Czech army, it's literally the Czechs.

Well, this is unclear, right? A lot of Czechs flee the Sudetenland. It's not laid down that they have to.

And they're not being offered any compensation or anything?

No, I don't think so.

I mean, that seems a bad It's a terrible check. It's not a good deal. I see no positive there.

It's a very bad deal. Anyway, the deal is done. There's no point in you complaining about it now. They bring out, they say it has a big signing. Hitler dips his pen in the special inkwell that he has to sign the deal. There's no ink. There's no ink in the ink. Well, Ribbentrop's face, Furious. Another-what would Freud make of that? Yeah, another disaster for Germany. Actually, I watched the final scenes, Pathé newsreels on YouTube. Hitler looks exhausted. Mussolini is having a brilliant time, clearly. But actually, the person who's also loving it is Gurring. Gurring is in this unbelievably tight white suit. And he's cracking jokes and slapping people on the back and stuff. Because, of course, he regards this as a victory for himself.

He's big mates with Sanevera Henderson, the British ambassador. They've gone out shooting.

Exactly. He's having a wonderful time. Hitler, though, is very gloomy and despondent. He's actually not got what he wanted, which was his war. The next day, he has one last meeting with Chamberlain. They're obviously very tired because they've been up until very late. Chamberlain goes in to see him.

This is where he presents his piece of paper.

This piece of paper. Chamberlain surprises him.

We will be friends forever. Everyone will be happy and the flowers will come and everything.

We promise that we will never go to war. Britain and Germany will never go to war with each other again.

No fairy will ever die again.

Now, in Robert Harris's novel about Munich, which is brilliant, he presents this as quite as... Chamberl isn't clearly emotionally invested a lot in this piece of paper. If nothing else, it is actually a useful political prop, because I think it is important that piece of paper in the decline of appeasement.

Stifling British.

Stifling British resolve. Hitler has made an explicit promise that he goes on to break. I think it is an important piece of paper. Hitler, at the time, sees the piece of paper. He's baffled by it. He thinks it's a complete waste of time. He says, Sure, I'll sign it. I mean, I don't care. He signs this piece of it. Ribbentrop says to him afterwards, What was that piece of paper? Hitler says, It was of no significance whatsoever, which I think is wrong. I think it really mattered in terms of British public opinion, because this is the piece of paper that Chamberlain waves when he gets back to Heston aerodrome, the paper that bears his name upon it as well as mine, the promise.

The promise. Peace with honor. Peace for our time.

Which is, of course, what Chamberlain says when he comes back and he's greeted by great crowds and he's invited onto the balcony of Buckingham Palace. He's the absolute hero of the hour in Britain, and indeed in the English-speaking world. More generally, there are messages from America, from Australia, Canada. Well done.

But presumably not from Prague.

But not from Prague at all. The news of the deal reached Prague on that same morning, so the 30th of September. President Benesh was in having a bath when the news was brought to him, and he said, very pressionately, he said, It's a betrayal which will be its own punishment. They think they will save themselves from war and revolution at our expense, and they are wrong. He did think about fighting anyway. So this is an answer to your question. The Czechs did think about fighting anyway, and they thought about asking the Soviet Union for their help. And eventually they decided, Look, we're bound to lose. We're not going to condemn our people for so much suffering. And they said, Benesh said, We've been defeated not by Hitler, but by our friends, our so-called friends. There are huge demonstrations in Prague, people saying, Don't do it. But of course, they do do it. The German army crosses the border, just as Hitler had planned. Huge crowds of Sudeten Germans throwing their flowers and giving Nazi salutes and all this thing. Here's the answer to your other question about the Czechs. There's a huge population flight from the Sudeten land.

By the time the Germans crossed the border, about 25,000 Czechs had already fled.

In the next two months-Leaving their homes, leaving their possessions.

Leaving everything. The classic thing of people with their thing on carts.

With wheelbarrows and things.

Exactly. In the next two months, another 150,000 people, including, obviously, the Jewish population who know exactly what Nazism will mean for them. This was a catastrophe for Czechoslovakia. They lost 3 million people. They lost 11,000 square miles of territory. They lost a fifth of their industrial production. And crucially, they lost those frontier defenses that you've been talking about, which have now fallen to the Germans without a single shot being fired. So if the Germans do want to finish their job, if they want to go deeper into Bohemia- That's nothing to stop them in military terms. Nothing to stop them at all. What is worse or as bad, Hungary and Poland both nibbled at the borders of Czechoslovakia and took more bits, as we'll talk about the Polish bit next week. And Czechoslovakia, the whole balance of it was upset. So the Slovaks demanded more autonomy. Basically, they end up with a much weaker, more federalized country. There's a Czech bit, there's an autonomous Slovakia, and the Far East, there's a bit called Subcarpathia and Ruthenia, which is now in Ukraine, which is a Ukrainian majority. And there, the German consul is basically the big man.

So in other words, the process of dismemberment has begun, and Hitler can basically move in to claim the rest whenever he fances it.

Obviously, this is terrible news for the Czechs, but it's also not great news for the conspirators in the German high command, is it?

No. That plot, which we talked about last time, Ludwig Beck, admiral Canaris, Oster, these other characters who are thinking about moving against Hitler, that's completely fizzled up. Hitler has done it again. Another foreign policy coup. There's no mileage for a conspiracy against him. They say, Chamberlain saved Hitler. We would have moved against him, whether that's the case and whether it would have worked, I don't know. But they definitely think that Chamberlain saved Hitler.

That is the last coordinated conspiracy against Hitler within Germany until 1944.

Until 1944. It's the ancestor of the Stalfenberg Pots, which is what slightly leads me to think it probably wouldn't have worked because, of course, the Stalfenberg pot fizzles out within a day.

I think it might have worked had the checks held out, had this resulted in economic meltdown, which was coming any way. Obviously, the absorption of Czechoslovakia means that economic meltdown is staved off. But I think circumstances might have been different.

We'll never know, will we? I mean, that's the thing. As it is, people across Eastern Europe, in particular, think Hitler wins. Hitler is the master now. So two countries, in particular Hungary and Romania, from this point onwards, they basically say, well, there's not much point in this. The French trying to build all these alliances, they're a complete waste of time. They're never fighting for you. We want to be in with the Germans. They're the big men now. But the person who isn't happy is Hitler. He wanted his war, and he's been betrayed as he sees it by Mussolini and by Göring and by Chamberlain.

But he has stared into the eyes of Chamberlain and Deladier, and he thinks that he sees weakness and pusillanimity and cowardice, and that therefore he can take them on. I mean, he calls them worms, doesn't he? Little worms. I've seen them. I've seen how contemplable they are. Yes. Of course, that is not actually the right... So he is mistaken as well, because actually, when Champlin gets back, he does all his paper-waving and going on the balcony of Buckingham Palace and things. But he does also say, We've got to rearm. We've got to press the accelerator on this.

Yes, he does. He absolutely does. I think in the last episode, I quoted Ian Kershaw saying about how cunning Hitler's foreign policy coups had been, how brilliantly planned, how ruth the propaganda had been cranked up. What a great judge of timing Hitler had been. This is really the first point at which I think you can say his instincts completely begin to desert him. He believes his own publicity, and he misreads the situation. I think you're dead right. I think he completely misreads Britain and France after this. I mean, all the stuff like they will never fight, they're weak, all that. He is dead wrong. He's running out of time now before they do fight. And And he doesn't see that, I think. He doesn't see that at all. One thing about Hitler, though, he feels that the German people have let him down. He's really discomforted that there was not more enthusiasm for war in the autumn of 1938. He was shocked that people cheered Chamberlain as he drove through the streets as a piecemaker.

So they've let Germany down, they've let Hitler down, but worst of all, they've let themselves down.

They've let themselves down. They've let the school down. And he says, so I wonder whether the pogrom of Kristelnacht, the Night of the Broken Glass, against the Jewish population of Germany, which happens just a few weeks afterwards, November 1938. We did an episode on it in our previous season. The violence of that, I think The violence for which Hitler, he personally was responsible. He ordered it. I wonder at some level whether his sense of frustration that he hasn't got his war, his obsession with-It's like a spoiled, very violent toddler. Yeah.

I mean, that's the impression you get with this.

Lashing out, exactly. On the second night of Kristelnackt, he summons a closed meeting of German newspaper editors, and he says to them, I'm sick of all this stuff about peace, world peace, peace propaganda, or peace is the most important thing. He said, It isn't the most important thing. We need war. We should arrange things, he says. So in a quote, The inner voice of the people itself slowly begins to cry out for the use of force. And from this point, he is already thinking about the next conquest. This is the thing with Hitler. He just cannot. He's addicted.

He's like a drug addict needing his next hit.

Yeah, he needs the next hit. So the next thing he thinks, I'll get the rest of Slovakia. He wants a port called Memel, which was a Baltic German seaport that's now basically been swallowed up by Lithuania. But he's also now for the first time thinking about another target, and this would be his biggest target yet, and this would be Poland.

Right, Dominic, thank you. Very somber, brilliant account. We will be telling the terrible story of the buildup to Hitler's War on Poland, its course, and its aftermath next week. Members of the Rest is History Club will get all three episodes of that story on Monday. If you're not a member of that club, but you would like to get those episodes on Monday, then you can sign up at therestishistory. Com. But either way, we will be back with the Nazi War on Poland on Monday. Bye-bye.

Bye-bye. As promised, here's a clip from The Rest is Politics US mini-series.

Trump is naturally a conspiracy theorist fueler. He will fuel the fire of any conspiracy theory because he's always seen himself as an outsider, and he wants to foment the people from the outside to attack the people from the inside. So he's developing these ideas that he eventually uses in January, on the sixth of January. And the ideas are there's misinformation out there, There's lies out there. Let's use these lies as father to attack the people on the inside. He's doing it with COVID. I think hydroxychloroquine works. You may remember this. I took hydroxychloroquine. Mr. President, you took hydroxychloroquine? Yeah, I'm on it. I took it. And this is the beginning. This is the kernel of what's about to come. And it all starts with COVID, and it leads up to this insurrection, or as the President says, a very peaceful group of tourists descending upon the Capitol building.

If you want to hear the rest of the show, go and search therestispolitics. Us, wherever you get your podcasts.