Transcript of Increase Your Income, Expand Your Options New

Brought to you by the EveryDollar app. Start budgeting for free today. Normal is broke. Common sense is weird. So we're here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey Network and the Fairwinds Credit Union studio, this is The Ramsey Show. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. Dr. John Delony, Ramsey personality, number one bestselling author, host of the Dr. The Dr. John Delony Show is my co-host today. Open phones here at 888-825-5225. Ryan is in Wake Forest, North Carolina. Hey Ryan, what's up?

Hi Dave, how are you doing today?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

Amen. Well, I'm calling because I'm a single mom of 2 and I also take care of my mom. And my question today is about how do I manage paying off debt while I'm still incurring medical expenses? Um, from both her and I also have a daughter who was hospitalized, um, and she's got ongoing medical care that's needed as well.

Okay. Um, so, uh, you have health insurance, I assume?

I have health insurance, but we have— and yes, and we've come— we've maxed out the deductible, um, and we're getting close to maxing out the out-of-pocket expenses as well too. But even that, the deductible is high because we have I have a high deductible insurance plan.

Mm-hmm. Okay. And so what do you make a year?

Well, in total, $160,000.

Okay. And how high is your deductible?

It's $5,000.

And what's your max out-of-pocket?

Another $4,000.

Okay. So $9,000 does not break you if you make $160,000. I'm confused.

It doesn't break me, but I'm also, I've got other expenses, debt that I'm trying to pay off as well.

Okay. There's not, you don't pay off. I mean, if you have medical bills that are ongoing, um, that exceed the $9,000, what would they be?

That exceed the $9,000? It would be, well, so for my daughter, she's, um, I don't want to say too much, but, um, she's got medical expenses that are going to be ongoing, um, for the unforeseeable future.

So she's got a chronic issue of some kind?

Yes.

Okay, but above the $9,000, do you come out of pocket for that situation?

I'm unsure because it's all fairly new.

Well, it shouldn't be.

There's some things that they cover and some things that they don't.

Unless you're trying to get a treatment that your insurance company doesn't cover, the $9,000 should be the end of it. Now, okay, so you keep— I'm a little bit confused with the way you're using the words on pay off your bills. You pay your monthly bills. You pay your electricity, you pay your water, you pay, you buy food.

Yeah.

You buy food.

Yeah. Sorry. I should have said debt.

Okay. And then how much debt do you have?

So I've got $20K in a car and $3K on a credit card. Um, and then $190K mortgage.

Okay, good, good. None of that's out of line.

And part of that is, yeah. And part of that is, um, Uh, an HE loan. So about $55,000 of that $190,000 is the HE loan.

You mean like a second, like an HOA, uh, a home equity loan?

Home equity.

Home equity. Okay.

Okay. All right. And so you've got 2 house payments, a car payment, and some credit cards, and you've got some ongoing medical bills with your daughter's chronic issues, and you make $160,000.

Right.

Okay.

And then there's my mother as well, but—

Okay. And what are you having to pay for her?

Um, personal nurse. So she's got several comorbidities and so we're trying to, um, pay a nurse to help take care of her.

And, and does she have income coming into this situation?

She's got Social Security, but it's not a lot.

Like $1,200, $1,500, what?

Yeah, somewhere around there.

Okay. And what's the nurse cost?

About $25 to— well, depending on how much experience they have, um, $25 and up an hour.

Okay, but I mean in a month, what are you spending on a nurse?

Um, so we haven't— we just kind of use them part-time for now.

Okay, and what are you spending on a nurse in a month?

So about $1,000.

And your mom brings in $1,200. Okay, so we covered that.

But it will go up. Yeah.

Yeah, well, but I mean, for now that's covered. In the last 2 months, you're trying to figure out why you weren't paying your bills, able to pay your bills, and that's pay extra on your debt. And that's what I'm trying to figure out by asking all these questions, where it's going. Okay, because I still haven't found where it's going. So it sounds like that you are a warrior princess working very hard and And you've got the emotional drain of your mom not doing well and your child with a chronic illness. And because you're not running with a full gas tank, it's hard for you to not let all this just become chaotic. And so the bills in an emotional bucket, the bills, have become chaos instead of— if you didn't have all this other stuff you were carrying, you're obviously a bright woman, you would just sit down and— Make a list of this and start paying it because the math tells me that this is doable. But I think what's happening is, is you're just overwhelmed. Does that sound right?

That, that's true. That's true. I am overwhelmed, but it's more than that. It's, it's that I feel like, because I was in baby step number 4 and now I feel like I'm crawling back to baby step number 2 because of the debt that keeps growing.

You went and bought a car and put yourself In Baby Step 2. Well, no, you pulled out your credit card and you used it.

Yeah, I had to buy one because there were a lot of other expenses that had, uh, you know, unforeseeable expenses that came up.

You got a lot of house things that went out.

Well, I mean, it was the HVAC system that went out and the car. It's— I had another car, but it had over 250,000 miles on it, and I had just spent $3,000 to get it fixed, and now it needs another $3,000.

You made the decision, put yourself back in this mess. You're giving me all the reasons, but you still did it.

The, the, the own, the, don't hear ownership as a, like a character judgment or some sort of moral failure. It's, it's owning. I took step A, B, and C. Like the world happened to me and I chose this path, not this path.

And it hurts.

And it hurts. Yeah. And sometimes you find yourself at a crossroads where any path you take is gonna hurt. Um, but in, in that case, and that's most of us, right? Any, when that happens, mm-hmm, I'm gonna take the path that's gonna Hurt, but gonna get me to where I wanna be.

Yeah, so you gotta get back on a budget.

Yeah.

Hardcore. Beans and rice, rice and beans. And no more rationalization of pulling out the credit card or, I had to have a car, it's $250,000. I don't give a crap. You don't go in debt again. Period. Period. Because then you end up strapped again back here. So nothing you have today can't be cleared up. The $20,000 car can be cleared up, the $3,000 credit card can be cleared up, and you can get back on the road. But you're gonna have to get above the chaos And make these monkeys all dance, because you're in the middle of a circus. And so you're gonna— you're, you know, there's just monkeys running around everywhere, and you're gonna have to teach them how to get in a line and how to dance. And that's called a budget. And you crack the whip on the money monster and make it behave. Money is a fabulous slave. It's a horrible master. And it's mastering you right now. It's adding to this anxiety of being overwhelmed. You feel overwhelmed with money, with your child, with your mom. And so this is an area you actually can control.

The line that I was trained with that was really helpful for me when I entered into chaotic situations are facts are your friends. When everything feels like it's dumping on your head, what are the facts here? How much am I spending on nursing? How much am I spending on food? How much am I spending on this car? And what can I do to get out of this mess following the facts path here? Because the emotions are big, and that's right for them to be big. The path out here is, what's the next right move?

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Danny's in Columbus, Ohio. Hey, Danny, what's up?

Hi there, nice to talk to you again. So my question was, I'm in baby step number 2. I am actually recently engaged and I'm super excited about that. And we're planning a wedding for May of 2027. And I was wondering how you would help or how you would balance trying to pay off debt and finance a wedding as well as a honeymoon without going into further debt.

Good, good. That's a good, that's a good first goal. Congratulations. So, um, Thank you. What do you make and what does she make?

Yeah. So I am a full-time pastor and a part-time lifeguard, and I make roughly about $45,000 a year.

What does she make?

She is a— yeah, she's a welder. She's new in her career. She's currently making about $18 an hour and she's looking to join the union. And she— when she— if she's able to do that, she'll be able to make Um, roughly $25 to $30 an hour starting out.

Okay. And has she just started the welding career? Because that's very low.

Yeah.

So she just graduated from trade school. Um, and she's currently, uh, working, um, uh, full-time for a local organization.

Yeah. Well, she's being dramatically underpaid. Oh, like half of what she should be paid in welding right now. There's a shortage of welders that have gone— that know how to actually, you know, lay a bead down. And so I don't know who got her this job, but they screwed her over. So she— I mean, she can make this at, at, at, uh, Target stacking boxes without any education.

I just paid some welders to do some work at my house, brother, and it was way, way more than what she's getting paid. Way— like, I'm smiling now. I can't believe that Yeah.

So anyway, that's thing one. Now, how much debt do you have?

Um, well, I've been on Baby Step number 2 for a couple of years. Um, I have, uh, no consumer debt right now. Um, the only thing I have, um, is federal student loans.

That's consumer debt.

I was an idiot.

Oh, um, how much is your student loan debt?

I was an idiot and, uh, I took out a lot and, um, I currently got it down to about $90,000.

Okay. And how much debt does she have?

Absolutely zero. She's been a follower of the Dave Ramsey plan since she was 16.

Excellent.

Okay. All right. And so what are you two planning to spend on the wedding? What's your budget that you came up with that you're going to spend on the wedding?

Well, we wanted to keep it small, and so we're looking at somewhere between $3,000 to $4,000 for the wedding. And then we wanted to take a 2-week vacation to somewhere either in Texas or maybe Mackinac Island or something, and so we're looking at Probably about $2,000 to $3,000 to do that.

Okay, so you need $6,000 by May.

Give or take, yes, sir.

Okay. That's $500 a month for a year. So $600 a month in your monthly budget, or $300 in your budget, $300 in her budget goes into the wedding account, and then you work on your debt.

Yes, sir. Unfortunately, that would be almost everything I'm chunking at my debt right now. Okay.

So you need a better extra job. Your extra job doesn't do well.

Or, and I don't want to give a controversial statement here, but you might not be able to do this ministry job at $45,000 because of previous decisions you made in your life to go 6 figures into student loan debt.

A lot of ministers, as a matter of fact, somewhere around 80% of pastors today are bivocational, meaning they have a full-time job in addition to being a preacher.

Yes, sir. And I do work full-time as a pastor. And, um, you know, I work about 20, 25 hours as a lifeguard and swim instructor for my local YMCA. Yeah. Um, I find both of those to be really impactful for our community.

And they're not impactful enough on the $90,000.

Yeah. And you're going to burn yourself out. You're not going to be there for your community in 5 years because you're going to be completely cooked.

Yeah. You need to go make some money so that you, so that you can remain in the work of the Lord. Because, you know, your lifeguard thing's semi-volunteer. I mean, you're not making any money there. And so you really, I mean, you do what you wanna do, but you called us. And when you do that, you're always gonna get our opinion, 'cause we're like an expert on our opinion. So, you know, I think you have an income problem. And you got a slight outgo problem if you only got $300 a month out of $45,000. So you need to get on a detailed budget. And you need to be putting some money aside to the wedding, but you have a $6,000 goal by May. And the two of you sit down and go, okay, maybe she's putting in $4,000, you're putting in $2,000, I don't care. But both of you have some career adjusting to do. Neither one of you are living up to your potential income-producing right now. And income and money is not everything, but it does give you options. And you don't have any options, you're handcuffed.

I am all about somebody deciding You know what? I don't wanna do this thing anymore. I wanna go make a quarter of my quote unquote market value, whatever that is. And I wanna just be here for my community. I love that idea. But if you've dug yourself a $90,000, $120,000 hole, you gave up that option. You gave up that option until you dig that hole, you fill that hole back up. So the fastest way to fill that hole back up and get back even on even ground is to go work a whole bunch of jobs and even do jobs that you might not think have impact, which I would argue with you on a different phone call. I think Everybody who interacts with other people has an opportunity to impact people in a positive way, whether you're at a fast food restaurant or a delivery person or whatever. But you gave up that right when you dug up those holes. I mean, when you dug yourself that big hole, you gotta fill that sucker up. And that means you gotta go get one job, two jobs. You may have to step away from your church for a season and go make a whole bunch of money doing something that you quote unquote don't feel called to do.

But I gotta clean up this mess so that I'm here in the long haul to be here for my family, for my community, for whatever I believe my faith is calling me to and all that kind of stuff.

Yep. That's exactly how it works. So again, we support pastors, we work with churches all across America, and we have for 30 years. And so we've got a huge heart for people that want to serve in that way and in that role. But you don't— just because it's there, you don't get a pass on the math.

That's it.

Yeah. You have to address the math. And so in order to be able to stay in that kind of a role, and that's what we're looking for. Jessica's in Springfield, Missouri. Hi, Jessica. How are you?

Hi, how are you doing?

Better than I deserve. You're breaking up. Can you speak directly into your phone?

Yes. Is this better?

Yes, ma'am.

Much better.

Yeah.

All right. My question is whether it's a debate between me and my husband.

Yes, we'll solve it. We'll solve it.

Fantastic. Uh, so the question is whether or not he's being spoiled or if I'm being miserly, um, and it's related to cars.

Okay, both of you probably, but anyway, yeah.

Both of us probably. So we have 3 aging cars and they're all doing fine right now, but we imagine that his commuter vehicle will be the first that needs to be replaced. Maybe in a year or so. Uh, the question is that he has bought several new cars in his lifetime. Um, and that's what he would like to do again. And I disagree. I've never bought a new car and I don't see any reason to.

Okay.

We, I suppose, I suppose we are in Baby Step 7. Um, we're free and clear.

What's your net worth?

Probably about $5,500. Not— we're not millionaires.

$5,500?

I'm sorry, $500,000.

$500,000. You're a half a millionaire.

Okay.

Half a millionaire. Yeah.

Okay.

We have the money to purchase a new vehicle, brand new, if we wanted to. I just don't really see the reason. So he says that after COVID happened, that depreciation on cars isn't what it used to be.

He's wrong.

Uh, I would agree.

Economically wrong.

Mathematically, arithmetic says he's wrong.

Okay?

So, and you can study it for 35 seconds on Google and you'll figure this out. I mean, it doesn't take it, you know, jump around and look. Look at a new car that was issued in a '23 model and see what the MSRP on it was, manufacturer's suggested retail price, and then see what that '23 is selling for today. And it is not up, it's down, and it's down dramatically. And sorry, but the Fauci pandemic didn't help with that. And so—

I would agree.

Yeah, you win. And we tell people not to buy brand new cars because they go down so fast in value until you have at least $1 million in net worth, because they go down so fast in value. And we don't— we want you to build wealth, not screw it up. So you win, you win, and you win.

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Here's what's weird. I went to a thing when I was 22 years old, and the guy put up compound interest on the table. on the board rather. And he said— he showed us the way compound interest works. $100 a month, and I heard this 44 years ago, okay? $100 a month invested from age 25 to age 65 in a decent growth stock mutual fund at market rates of return is $1,176,000. See, I think you should not be allowed to get out of high school until you know that equation. Because it would stop all the stupid socialism stuff. Because you went, all I need is $100 a month and I can live with— be a millionaire, you know, from age 25 to age 65, age 22 to age 62, age 20 to age 60. I don't care which 40 years you want to pick it out. You can wait till 40 and do it at 80 if you want, but I wouldn't recommend it. See, anyone can become a millionaire. It's not that complicated. George and I are doing An in-depth nerd dive. I don't know exactly what an in-depth nerd dive means, but look that one up.

We've listened to you talk. We know what it means.

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That's crazy.

It's crazy. It's gonna be like a lot of people sleeping. But yeah, now we're gonna, we're gonna go into the details. We're gonna give it— I mean, we've taken the material we did last year and sadly we've added a bunch to it. So it's actually not gonna be 2 nights of 2 hours. Brace yourself, it'll be longer than 2 hours because we're just not gonna be able to cover everything we wrote and we want to do it all. So we're gonna do it. There we go. Hey, it's gonna be a lot if you want a lot. You can get it next Tuesday and Wednesday, uh, the Investing Essentials 2-night virtual event with George and me.

Super—

Well, let me say this. I, I think this is important for a big reason that we don't talk about here in the building. And I'm not embarrassed to say this, this is just truth. I, I knew you when I joined this team. I knew you had this show and I knew you had this message and I knew you've been consistent with your message. And I don't know how a nice way to say this. I didn't know you were as smart as you are. Or maybe a better way to say that is I didn't realize the level of intentionality with which you made decisions. And even in the last 5 or 6 years, the, the way all of our interactions are chopped up and edited and put on clips, and then people respond to clips or whatever, I can imagine there is millions of people who see you and hear you say a few things. And this is an opportunity for them to really understand why you do what you do, not only why you teach people, but it's why you do this in your own house. And that to me makes this thing worth its weight in gold.

Way, way underpriced if you ask me.

Well, thank you. That's very nice. It's funny, but it's nice. Cecilia's in Orlando. Hey Cecilia, what's up?

Hi, how's it going today?

Better than we deserve. How can we help?

Lovely. Um, so I'm about to get married.

Yay.

Yay!

And I just got myself out of debt.

Good.

And I'm going to marry into a lot of debt.

Good.

Um, my husband is a spendthrift, and so I'm trying to figure out— I know once we get married, I'm going to help him with getting out. We've already started the Ramsey program for him.

Oh wow, good.

Yeah, and it's going pretty good, but once we get him out of debt, he's gonna keep spending. Cash only. Um, but how do I go about saving money and not putting it all towards his spendthrift ways?

How old are you guys?

51.

Awesomeness. Very cool. Very cool. Well, um, congratulations. I think you're going to have a great marriage.

Opposites— Oh, we will. We've been together a long time.

Opposites attract. In good marriages. Spenders attract savers, and that's a good thing because spenders need a saver. That way they don't have to retire and eat dog food, right?

True.

And savers, savers need a spender in their life so they have a life.

Very true.

He's, he's the fun guy. You're not.

He is.

I'm not. I like my books.

And he's there to help you have fun. So I'm the spender at my house, oddly enough, even though I teach this stuff. My wife is the natural saver. And so her natural tendency, if there's any kind of emotion involved in it, is to draw back and save. In my case, I'm an abundance guy. She's a scarcity gal. And so I always figure I can get more money, so I'm going to go do it.

Yeah.

But we need each other to create wisdom in the middle, and wisdom is that we need to We need to spend money on having a good life that we both are in agreement on. That's wisdom. We need to save and invest to create a quality future for us and our kids and our dogs and our cats. That's wisdom. And we need to be generous and we need to be doing all of these things together. So you're going to have to— your job when you guys are sitting and looking at the budget is to allow some fun to be in the budget. And also make sure your savings is in there. His job is to allow some savings to be in the budget and make sure that his fun is in the budget. Because, because listen, Cecilia, and then when it's all written down, you just go do it and there's no guilt.

Because if that's not the case, what you're telling me is a far more concerning thing. And that is you sat down with this man that's about to be your husband and you said, I'm uncomfortable with how you recklessly spend money. And he looked at his future wife and said, I don't care what you think. I don't care what you feel. I'm gonna do what I want to do.

The two of you, like two 51-freaking-year-old grown-ups, are making grown-up decisions together because it's good for our future. He's saying, I agree with Cecilia. I need to clean this up. And so the two of us are going to work on that together. That's an adult decision. Mommy, take my bills and pay them for me is not what we want in a husband.

Oh, no, no, that— we don't play that game.

And Cecilia, if y'all have been together for a while, And he sat down and said, I wanna marry you and I'm gonna change the way I'm doing things. I'm gonna take this Dave Ramsey course. I am going to follow these Baby Step things. I'm gonna do a weekly budget meeting.

He loves you.

But you showing up every meeting and going, well, he's just gonna go spend it. Like, uh, generally speaking, a husband will rise to their wife's level of belief in them. Do you get what I'm saying?

Fair, yes.

And if he's putting the work in, however clumsy and awkward it is, he's never done this in half a century, you, you seeing him do the next right thing, however uncomfortable it is or whatever, and you believing in him, man, that goes a long, long way.

So I'll just fast forward. I mean, 28 years old, almost 40 years ago, we lost everything because of my stupidity, borrowing too much money and flipping houses. And the bank called our notes and we lost everything, went bankrupt. So, but that's not the same Dave today that's on the microphone. And Sharon will tell you, thank God I'm not still married to the same guy I married originally.

Yes.

He has grown. And so I'm— while my tendency is to spend, the spending that we do at the Ramsey House is very much within the wisdom guidelines. And even if it might make her a little bit uncomfortable sometimes, and it makes me happy, Then, but still, it's nowhere near where it was.

It's intentional.

I can still have my tendency, but do it with maturity.

There you go.

Yeah.

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Hello, what's up?

How can we help?

I was just wondering, uh, my soon-to-be wife is starting college, or she just started college, and she has enough for first semester's tuition. And I was just wondering if after that we should take out student loans to cover it until she gets her job after school, or if we should just pay it off and just live pretty tight for the next 3 years.

How old are you guys?

I just turned 20. She just turned 18.

And what's she studying in college?

Uh, medical imaging. So she wants to be a rad tech, so she'll be making pretty good money coming out.

So a 2-year program and she'll be making $50,000?

Uh, no, it's a 4-year program, I think. Really?

And for medical imaging?

Yeah, yeah, she— well, she was doing like extra stuff Like there's more classes she can take to make more starting off.

Maybe. Um, she's 18. Where did we get this information about this career?

Uh, her, uh, her second cousin does it for a living.

Okay. You know how scary that sounds when you say it?

Yeah, when you— the way you just said that, I puckered up pretty good, Luke.

Okay, I want you and her to go to the hospital and talk to the hospital administrator and find out what they're paying, and does it require a 4-year degree? That's the first thing, okay? Because if we're going to study, the purpose of studying, the primary purpose of studying, especially when we're broke people, is to create an opportunity in the marketplace that we can make more money.

Right.

Otherwise, you could just go take a job at Target, right?

Right.

And so if we're gonna make $18 an hour after going for 4 years, then we don't need to go get that degree. That's a dumb degree. Okay? Or if you get a degree in left-handed puppetry or some kind of bullcrap degree, you know, you're gonna end up being a barista. So, you know, so you need to really study what this is before you invest 4 years of your time and life into it, much less 4 years of money. And so that's thing one. Thing 2 is, I think you're fairly new to this whole Ramsey thing and someone told you to call here, some friend or relative, and they tricked you. Because we're really kind of known, Luke, for telling people to never take out a student loan for anything.

Right.

And you asked that question with great honesty and it tells me that you probably have not listened to this show a lot.

I'm a pretty new listener. Yeah, it was just, uh, like, currently I don't have the money, but I'd be like, I'd be able to save up.

No, you asked me if you should borrow a student loan. That tells me that you don't know much about what we do, because 100% of the time we yell at people for taking out a student loan. Okay, no, under no circumstances do you take out a student loan. Yes, you investigate what is required for her to go into this field of study if she really wants this career or if she just thought it was a way to make money because her cousin said to, which scares the crap out of me. But yeah, I really want her to pick out what she wants to be in life and then what education does it take to do that. So we do not borrow money on student loans. The statistics are horrendous. 100% of the people that take out a student loan have a student loan. Only 57% of the people that start college finish.

Okay.

That's not even half. That's how bad colleges are.

I agree. I decided to skip college and go straight into the workforce because I didn't believe in it.

Yeah.

Well, and Luke, the— what we don't want to have happen for— we don't want you to be in the situation where 2 years into this 4-year degree, y'all have racked up $30,000 in student loans, and then she comes home with what What should be the greatest news of your life, I'm pregnant. And now she's gotta— she's gonna decide to stop going to school, or she can't do this imaging program because she's pregnant. And so she's gotta do something else. That student loan payment is still due. And so—

That's what happens in real life.

Yeah. And so I was 18, I was 19, I was 20, I was 21, dude. We had crazy roommates. I lived in some of the wildest living situations. I still took out student loans like a goofball, but Like, yes, y'all are scratching and clawing. Y'all are eating, I mean, y'all are eating bologna sandwiches and rice and beans. Yes. Y'all are just gonna scratch and claw. And by the way, y'all could end up with a pretty amazing marriage together, figuring out ways to solve these problems without borrowing money. 'Cause y'all are in this thing together.

Yeah.

And so that, that's, that's a, it could be a cool thing 3 or 4 years down the road.

Let's verify that this is the proper path to get where you want to go. Let's verify that it is where we want to go. And then let's figure out the least expensive way to do it and pay cash for it. Those are the 3 things we would tell you to do coming out of this. I'm also going to send her a copy of Ken Coleman's book, Finding the Work You're Wired to Do, because I want her to spend some time thinking about who she is, because we want to decide if we stay on this track or not. So, John, 1,000 years ago when I was a kid, there was a— the grandfather of the— maybe the great-grandfather of the motivational speaking movement was a guy named Earl Nightingale. And Earl famously says, with his deep baritone voice, Americans spend more time picking out a suit of clothes than they do their career. How'd you get that job? My buddy went over there and got it. He did. My cousin did it. That's not how you pick your career.

Okay.

You look in the mirror and say, what did God design here? How am I designed? What is it I'm supposed to do? And then what with my natural giftings and talents, what kind of sharpening can I do called education and tools added in my belt called education to help me do what it is that I'm put together when I was knit in my mother's womb, according to Isaiah, What was I put— when God was knitting me together with a DNA-RNA double helix and a knitting needle, what was he making and what am I supposed to do? You need to think about that more than you think about the purse you pick out or the suit you pick out. Nobody buys a suit anymore, but the hat you buy, whatever it is, the stuff we spend time on. I fret over what I'm going to buy, this stupid thing, and then we just go take a job because your cousin had it. And that might not be the case with her, but when he said that, it just went down my spine.

Yeah. Or you're asking an even bigger question that I always press on college students, especially college graduates. What kind of life do you want to have?

Yeah.

And does this job— instead of, I want to build a life around this job— is this job in service to the person you want to become, like the life you want to hold? And if you want to help people in this particular job, man, you can do a lot of good for a lot of folks in a lot of different ways. But man, sometimes you find yourself, I have to get a job because I got to go make money right now. And—

Yeah, or my dad was a doctor, my grandpa was a doctor, so I got to be a doctor. You know what you are? A miserable doctor.

Man, I sat with a lot of those students sobbing.

Miserable.

I don't want to be here.

Yeah. You know, I don't— listen, if you're my dentist and you're a dentist because your mommy wanted you to be a dentist, I don't want to be your patient. No. Yeah. I think that's going to hurt. You know, I mean, think about it, guys. You suck at stuff that you do for other people rather than the way you were designed.

Right.

And so, you know, what is it that you've got natural giftings in? And let's lean into that and let's polish it and let's hone the craft to fit, you know, by adding education to the mix. I believe in education, but randomly, I'm going to be a lawyer because lawyers make money. Not all of them. Some of them are really pretty broke.

And I've— I spent several years studying attorneys who got everything they wanted, and they were pretty miserable because they thought what they wanted was this number or this love, this name on their building or whatever. And what are you looking for in your life? What's, what's going to be the score of your life?

Right. So that's a lot for— that's a lot more than just answering Luke's question. But it just kind of made me think about that deep baritone voice saying Americans spend more time picking out a suit of clothes than they do What their future career is going to be.

Well, and, and here's where Luke finds himself, man. If y'all are young, was he say 18 and 19 years old getting married? What y'all need right now is some money.

Yeah.

And if one of you knows, I wanna go into the medical field, I wanna go do this thing, like you said, go sit down with some people who do that job for a living and ask how that world works. Not just get some salary advice from a second cousin.

Yeah.

Here's what's weird. They might hire you over there as an assistant to the assistant tech, And pay your tuition.

That's exactly right.

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Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. Anthony is in Canada. Hi, Anthony, how are you?

Hey, Dave, how's it going?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

Uh, I am just, uh, asking if I should stay at this one job that I don't really like too much and the job and the pay is not that great, or if I should go back to kind of what I was doing beforehand and I was making better pay. But I have been working in that industry for like 2 years now, and every so often I'd get into a job and they'd just be pretty much hiring for When they're slow and then they lay off like not even 6 months later. But I like that industry.

What is the industry?

Uh, electrical. I was doing like electrical apprentice.

Okay.

Well, I mean, the electric— there's not a, um, I mean, that company might get slow, but the call for electricians does not ebb and flow that much.

Yeah.

You, it sounds like you've boxed yourself into a corner, brother. Either or. And I would love for you to consider 30 other options, 27 of which may be dumb, but just, yeah, just to free yourself from, it's not boring job, not making much money, but stable and risky job where I love the job and it pays well, but then they just might lay you off at a moment's notice. Like that.

Yeah.

Those are 2 not great options. There's, there's 300 other options, right?

Yeah.

So let's get a job that pays more and is stable and you like. Yeah, that's the option I want.

Yeah, I've definitely tried to, and just since I've been in that electrical industry for however long, it's primarily only electrical businesses that would hire me. I've— this is why I took the other job. This job I'm currently doing is to get something else on my resume.

But, uh, okay, how old are you?

I'm 21. I'm not that old yet.

So when did you get all of this experience? When you were 13?

No, it's just been like the past like 2, 3 years kind of thing.

Yeah, sort of.

Yeah, I've been to like maybe like 5 different electrical businesses and they just have been pretty much all the same.

Yeah, it wasn't that they saw someone with a limited resume, it's that they saw a 21-year-old.

Yeah.

And this is what— then he can do electricity, like electrical work, and so we'll hire him to do electrical work. That's all it is. It's not— you're overcomplicating this, um, and you're discounting the fact that you're being looked at as a youth.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

And that, that changes the way they pocket this or bucket this when an employer is looking at you in this situation. So I think we would start fresh, and I'm going to send you a copy of Coleman's book, Finding the Work You're Wired to Do. And I want you to pretend like you had never worked in your life and you were brand new, and you just said— your dad just said, okay, you got to get out of the house, go and be free, my son. And you said, okay, what am I going to do with my life? What do you want to be when you grow up?

Huh?

What do you want to be when you grow up, Anthony? So I want you to answer that question kind of and start fresh as if you didn't have all this other stuff weighing you down, because it's probably going to take you to one of those other 300 options that John's talking about. And then you discover what Henry Cloud calls your desired future that might be completely different than anything we're talking about. As a matter of fact, I think it should be. And then you say, okay, what must be true for me to be one of those kinds of people making that kind of money? Oh, wait a minute. I'm going to have to take a 2-year certification program. Oh, I'm going to have to go to trade school. Oh, I'm going to have to get a 4-year degree. Oh, I got to go to graduate work. I don't know. Whatever it is to be one of those, then go do those things to be one of those.

And at 21, your chief focus is becoming the most excellent electrician possible. And there's going to be some grinding out that happens here. Like Dave said, it stinks. It's a bummer, whatever. that, man, go become the best freaking electrician in your part of, in your province there. And the, you will, you will be hired.

Yeah.

Like the people will want you on their squad.

Exactly. Show up early, leave late, work while you're there.

Take, take weekend jobs.

I have a family member, take a bath and smile and they'll never get rid of you. I mean, it's that simple.

And take Saturday and Sunday jobs at, at people's homes, um, and changing plugs out and changing light fixtures out and putting in ceiling fans. Like become Excellent at the craft. Yeah. And the adjacent crafts, man. And dude, I'm telling you, as a guy that's spent a lot of money on electricians recently, bro, they're— the demand is there.

Got like firsthand knowledge of welders, electricians.

You're, you're a real wealth of knowledge. Winston is helping me out with some home projects, but man, they are— the, the work they're doing is second to none and they are very proud of it.

Yeah. They're, they're, they're—

as they should be.

They like it. Yeah, so hang on, we'll pick up and send you a copy of that book, Finding the Work You're Wired to Do.

Oh, good one, Dave.

Bada boom, it is the title. Sullivan is in Las Vegas. Hey Sullivan, what's up?

How's it going?

Better than I deserve. How can I help?

Uh, so I'm kind of in a pickle a little bit. Um, so my rent went from like $1,750 up to like $1,950. Um, me and my wife are debating whether to stay here, move out. We're trying to pay off debt as much as we can.

We have like $20,000 or $28,000 in debt.

So we're kind of just looking around, seeing if it's better for us to stay or to move into something like cheaper. So that's kind of where we're at right now.

Cool. Well, is it just the two of you?

It's me, my wife, and my two daughters, and my sister-in-law.

Oh, not just the two of you.

Yeah.

So you gotta have a place that has a lot of bedrooms, huh?

Yeah, so we're looking for like a 3-bedroom, but Vegas can be pretty expensive.

What's the sister-in-law? How does this play into this?

Um, well, she lived in California, and so she came out to Vegas to stay, to live with us, to go to college. And so my wife and her are both going to CSN out here in Las Vegas.

Now, is she paying rent?

Uh, no, we're just trying to help her. She's 19, so, um, she was in college. That's nice.

You're broke. Okay.

Yeah.

Are you in a position to help her?

No, he's broke. Um, because you're getting ready to go rent a house you wouldn't have rented because you have a sister-in-law tagging along.

Yeah.

If it's just you and the 2 kids, you might do something completely different. So that enters into this equation. So Solomon, rent is patience. Patience while you get out of debt and save up money to buy a house. The less you pay for your patience, the faster you get out of debt and save up money to buy a house. And so I'm going to take the cheapest possible rent I can because it's for a period of time. It's not my way of doing life. It's living like no one else so that later I can buy a house. Living like no one else so later I can live like no one else and give like no one else. So you get out of debt, save your emergency funds, save your down payment because you have a low rent, and then you talk about buying a house. And as you do that, your credit will clean up because you don't have any debt, and, and you'll be more and more eligible for that while you're cleaning all this mess up. But you're gonna have to lean in hard on all that. And you don't look at renting as a way of life then.

We look at it as a temporary stop. We're camping here till we get our more permanent home that we actually own. And Sharon and I often called it camping, although there was no literal camping involved. We're gonna camp here for a little while. No, as a way of telling our brain this is temporary.

Just, just, just for a season.

Yeah, notifying my body it's not gonna be here long. It's gonna be somewhere else. I'm just camping. We're gonna camp out here a while.

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I'm good, how are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

Thanks for having me on. Um, so my fiancée and I are getting married here in about 3 weeks, and we are looking to build a home on 5 acres that my dad gifted to us. Um, so for reference, we make about $150,000 gross per year. We have $110,000 in savings right now. Our only debt is $25,000 in student loans. But the house we want to build is around $400,000 to $450,000. But following the 25% rule, it probably looks like we'd only be able to afford something around the $300,000 range. So we're just looking for some guidance.

Well, you've already got that. We told you $300,000, didn't we?

Yeah. Yeah.

How old are you guys?

My, uh, we're both 28.

Okay.

If you put, if you put today, if you take $25,000 of that $150,000 you have and pay off your student loans, and then you put $100,000 down on a $400,000 house, that brings you to $300,000, doesn't it?

Yes, but I'm saying like that I think I'd have to get the loan amount down to closer to like $200,000 for that to work.

And y'all make a combined $150,000?

Yes, gross. Yeah.

Okay, well, I mean, there's a concept that you can do whatever you want to do. You're grown-ups and you're allowed to do that, but you're calling and asking our advice and the guidelines that we have that we We show people how not to be house poor so that they can have margin in their budget to invest and to be generous and to buy the next car for cash and to pay cash at Christmas and not have the house own them. And so, I mean, what if you told me that the house you wanted was $700,000, but you can afford $200,000?

No way.

You know, you would just say, you would use the words that no one uses in America, we can't afford it. And so you've got to decide what you can afford. Now, there's a couple of other options. I mean, no one says that in the first year of marriage that you should build a home. As a matter of fact, I would probably tell you, having built several homes, it's not good for your marriage to build a home. in the first year of marriage. This is the opportunity to fight like you have never fought in your life. And so, you know, and it's a brand new tender relationship, marriage, and, you know, building a home is a lot. It's a lot of details, a lot of decisions, and a lot of compromises between the two of you of what color something's going to be or what the the thing is going to be. And I mean, sometimes one of the spouses just says they're not going to be involved and the other one does it, but that's not healthy either. You both are going to live there. You both should speak into what the house is, okay?

And you both should have a vote.

Okay.

And then by the time you do that, it's going to be strenuous relationally. I wouldn't tell people not to build a house in the first year of marriage relationally. So having said all of that and given that little speech, it might be okay to just go rent an apartment On the other side of town. Is this land adjacent to your family?

Yeah, we have a family farm, so we're just kind of getting a chunk of that.

So be good for your wife to not be next door to her mother-in-law in the first year of marriage.

Yep, I get that.

Marcus, what's your—

yeah, we are—

what's your take-home every month?

Uh, it kind of varies because my work's a little seasonal, but I pick up some, uh, Part-time work in the wintertime. So I don't know, it probably varies between $8,000 to $10,000 depending. I make more in the summer.

Okay.

And does your wife work? Your fiancée?

Yeah.

Getting ready to be one. And that $150,000 is the total of the two of you?

Yes.

And the total take-home pay from the two of you would be about what?

Not 100% sure, to be honest. Okay.

Well, that would be a number you would need to have the discussion we're having.

Yeah. 'Cause I, I feel like you're underselling a bit. I feel like you've like, to get that 25% mark, um, I, I think you're close. I just did some napkin math here on the computer. I think you're closer than you think.

Yeah.

But I also agree.

But it's also okay to wait a year.

I also agree with Dave relationally. Tell your dad like, man, thank you for these 5 acres. We wanna spend 1 year just figuring it out ourselves.

Cabin in the woods.

And we're gonna save a little bit more money so we can put more down on the house.

No, not near any of you people. Yeah, I'm serious, man. That's— it'd be great for you. And then when you come over there, your marriage is more knit and more matured. And when you come over there next door to her mother-in-law, then she can handle it a little better. And, um, I know your mother's great, but she doesn't know that yet. So, um, may take a while.

And you're gonna have family members that say, oh, you're gonna throw away money, and we're giving you— they don't get a vote. Yeah, it's a good season to learn like who gets to speak into what you do next, and that's awesome.

I'm taking a year off if I'm you. Yeah, pay off student loan today, stack cash for a year, rent a cheap apartment. You'll build a different house, by the way, too.

100%.

You'll know each other better after a year, and you'll build a better house together.

Spend a year touring houses to see what you like. You like this kitchen, you like that bathroom.

Yeah, clip, you know, build a Pinterest board with all the ideas you like and all that kind of stuff, and take pieces of a house. And, you know, the last The last house we built, it was 3 different houses that we found pieces of, and we bolted them together with an architect and made it look right.

Well, and even Sharon explaining parts of the house and the way this new house y'all built, like, it was a learned experience from another house.

Exactly.

But it was like we built a different house because of that other— we had lived together in, in another, another situation.

Exactly.

Yeah, you'll build a different home That you'll be more happy with.

Yeah, you'll do it. You'll be somewhat— yeah, wait a year. Wait a year and pay off student loan. That's my advice. Now the trick is, will you do it? Now that's where it comes down.

I know we're against Polly Market, but we should have a Polly Market. Like, would they— one of those—

Oh, we're against betting?

A gambling site. But if there was a, are they gonna do it or not, that'd be fun.

Yeah, we could just take like an informal poll with no money on it.

There we go.

Okay.

Yeah, we don't have to do GoFundMe with it.

Will they do it or will they not?

Will they do it? Thumbs up, thumbs down. John in Madison, Wisconsin. Hey John, how are you?

Hi, I'm good. How are you doing?

Better than I deserve. How can I help?

Um, so I have a question regarding starting a 401. So I have about $50,000 and that $30,000 of those are Um, student loans and about $20,000 on a car. And following the Baby Steps, I know I'm supposed to start paying down my debt, but at 30 years old, I'm kind of just getting a little bit—

Oh God, you're so old.

You're gonna die broke.

You're gonna die poor. You're so old, John.

You're 1,000 years old.

That is kind of what my thought was.

How are you getting around? A walker? Have you got a wheelchair? Dude, you are so stinking young. Don't whine about being old. You're not panicking at 30 years old. You need to get your butt out of debt and follow the Baby Steps.

Yeah, you're good, brother.

Okay, so just—

you're not old.

On the 401. Temporarily, but I want you to get paid down.

Yeah, but I want you to get after it, man. I mean, we don't keep this debt around for 4 years like it's a pet. It's just— what'd you say it was, $50 grand?

$50,000.

$60,000. What do you make?

Um, me and my wife's combined income is about $175,000 per year.

So pay it off in a year.

One year, dude.

Okay.

So what's $5,000 a month in your budget?

Um, our margin is about $4,000 to $5,000 per month.

Done.

Well, cut something else out. I want it $6,000 then. Be done in 10 months.

Just be done with it.

And then, then this is not a question. You're a whole 31 years old when you start your 401. But just trying to do 6 things at once is how people do nothing.

And by the way, you'll have $5,000 a month to invest, to do whatever you want to with.

Once you get rid of this stupid debt.

Changes your life, man.

Attack it like it's a disease, because it is.

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Dave, I feel like this question is directly aimed at me. And so I just want to call out, okay, it hurts already.

This is a personal affront to John Deloney.

To Deloney. Today's question comes from Diana in Washington, D.C. Since my husband and I have gotten married, we've justified certain purchases by saying, quote, it's an investment. For example, $2,000 worth of high-quality business suits that would last for many years. As we started listening to The Ramsey Show, we began to suspect that we aren't using the term It's an investment in the right way. Is it ever appropriate to refer to a purchase as a quote-unquote investment, even if we don't expect it to generate an income or profit? If not, how should we be thinking about purchases like these to decide if they're right for us?

It's never an investment. It's wise consumption.

Ooh, good line.

Or it's unwise consumption. One of the two.

But I really think my guitars and my hunting gear and my Jim, those are investments.

Yeah, I mean, the thing is this, there's a couple things that when I first started teaching this stuff, people started throwing all these sayings at me, and they're all pretty good. Stuff like, you know, rich people ask how much, poor people ask how much down, how much a month. Okay, wise people buy an expensive item— rich people do— that will last 20 years, and poor people, unwise people, buy a cheap item that feels good right now. and lasts 20 minutes. And so it's kind of like we're teaching the kid, they're buying a toy and you're going, that toy is going to break by the end of the week, or you can buy this item, this toy, and it's going to last. It's built. It's a good— it's a Tonka truck, right? It's going to last generationally. I got Tonka trucks at 3 generations now. So that kind of stuff. So what is a wise purchase? And so you know, you buy a quality thing. So an example would be, I would suggest you buy a 2-year-old high-quality automobile instead of a brand new Dodge Neon.

Right.

Which is gonna be crap by Friday because it was crap when you bought it on Monday. And so, you know, I mean, that— but that's the difference in a wealthy mentality and a poor mentality. I'm gonna— I just want something shiny and new. even if it's cheap in quality and won't last. In her case, she's talking about that. That's what Diana's talking about is a quality suit. It's going to last you. It's a timeless cut and material. It's not a high-fashion item that's going to be a fad item, but that you can wear that forever. I wear on media and oftentimes on stage, I'll wear a black blazer, okay? And I don't own a tie anymore, I got out of that business, but I've got 3 or 4 of those that I paid a lot of money for, and I think they're approaching 10 years old now. And they, you know, they're hanging in the closet here, they're hanging in the closet at the house, and so on, you know, backstage at the event center. So if I need one, I got the exact same cut, custom-made, high-quality item, you know. And so it travels well because it's not gonna wad up, and, you know, it's a, you know, so it's a good— that's But that's not an investment because I can't turn around and sell it at a profit.

And that's the definition of an investment.

Yes.

It goes up in—

the investment's going to pay you money out and/or go up in value and you can resell it. And clothing definitely doesn't qualify. Just ask the people at the consignment sale. And so, yeah, that— but you can call it a wise consumption. And it's a good— it's an interesting question. And what I do love about her question is, is that words do matter.

Yes.

They give your brain signals because if you call it an investment rather than wise consumption, it gives you permission to double down.

Well, and that's where I get called out because I've used the phrase, oh, this is really an investment, over and over in my life. And it's just been a bad justification for, I really want this thing and I want to get the nicest version of this thing. And so if I call it an investment for whatever reason, it makes it okay. instead of having the courage to say, you know what, I just want this and I've saved up for it and me wanting this is enough.

Yeah.

And I don't need all this other baggage to it to justify for myself.

Exactly.

I want a nice thing.

I think I quit using— one of the times I learned to not use this was I was 26 years old. I was making a lot of money in the real estate business and before I went broke and I bought a Jaguar, which I grew up in a neighborhood where they couldn't spell Jaguar. So much less even knew what one was. So it was very impressive to me that I had a Jaguar. I thought it was, you know, BA, right? So I roll up at my grandpa's house, and my grandpa Ramsey was a Scotsman. He was a classic grandpa. I mean, pull the crooked nails out of the board, straighten them out, and put them in a coffee can grandpa.

Coffee can.

You know this grandpa, right? He never threw away anything. Everything— he was a child of the Great Depression, worked 38 years for Alcoa Aluminum, saved every dollar he ever had, never invested any of it, just saved it. it and just stacked cash. And he comes out, he was a sweet man, he came out and I'm there in my little double-breasted suit and I think I'm a really cool 26-year-old. And he said, what is that? I said, it's a Jaguar, Grandpa. He said, wow, it's a fine-looking automobile. He said, what'd that cost? And I think at the time it was like $35,000 or something, which today would be $150,000, right?

Yeah.

And I said, $35,000. He goes, He goes, oh my God, I've never spent that on a car. He said, that is a fine car. I said, well, Grandpa, it is. It's a great car. It's a great investment. And he said, really? That's amazing. He said, so in 10 years, what will that car be worth? And I said, blah, blah, blah. And he said, well, honey, my investments go up. But that's the same thing, right? It's the same mentality. Now that car, if I had paid cash for it and wasn't leveraged to my eyeballs and getting ready to go broke in the real estate business trying to appear to be something I'm not, which is the case in that situation, totally shallow as I could be, right? I mean, classic, classic putting on the pose. But if I had paid cash for the car and I had the wealth, I still should not have used the phrase, it's an investment.

Right.

It's consumption that I can afford.

And that I want.

So it's wise consumption and I like it. And that's an okay answer. At least then I wasn't trying to defend it as if it was going up in value, which is what he called me on. But that's the thing. If it's not going up in value and you can't turn around and resell it, or you don't propose it's going to go up in value, then you're not— it's not an investment. So we bought a boat and it's an investment in our family. No, it's consumption for your family. It's not an investment. Boats do not go up in value. None of them. 2 best days of your life: the day you buy a boat, the day you sell it, right? That's the old saying. Now, I don't know that because I've never sold my boat. Now, I have sold them, got a better one, but yeah. So I'm still a boat guy. I'm not against boats. But the point being, don't— well, we're investing in our children by taking them to Disney. No, you're consuming an experience, and your value is that you want to spend money on experiences rather than other things. Okay, that's fine.

Just own it.

Quit acting like it's something it's not.

Right.

And that's what she's calling out wisely here.

Yeah.

I like that. That's a good discussion. Words matter. Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. So, you know, make sure your heart's aligned on this. Okay. We're consuming this money. We can afford it. It's a wise consumption. It's a reasonable purchase given our situation. But we're not gonna call it something it's not, which is an investment. Oh, that's so good.

And I'll even say this, the, the baggage that I brought to it, man, it took me a while to unpack this. I'll probably unpack this the rest of my life, is that underlying, I'm not worth that. Or guys like me don't play guitars like that.

I haven't earned that.

I've, I'll, I'll never like, that's people who buy that kind of thing.

So you're acting like it's gonna go up in value cuz that makes it okay. Cuz it's not worth, you're not worth doing it for you.

That's it. And, uh, for me, taking, that's powerful. Taking ownership of, I want this, my wife and I have agreed on it and it's okay if I get it. It's okay.

Yeah.

And, um, and it checks, it's a part of our life rhythm, right?

That's good. I like that.

But that's, that was for me getting over like, I'm not worth too $2,000 suit. Like, I'm not that guy. I'll never be that guy. But if it's an investment, I can do that, right?

Yeah. Well, and it keeps you from, um, buying stuff to impress other people.

That's— that to me is the most important thing.

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Hey, I'm good. How are you guys?

Better than we deserve. What's up?

Well, I was wanting to know if, um, I should go back to school.

Well, if I should go to school. I've never been to college and, um, the job that I've been And although I've risen through the ranks position-wise, I can't go any further without a 4-year degree.

What do you do?

I work in the cafeteria.

I'm a trainer for them. And so I've been a worker, I've been an assistant manager, a manager.

What is it that you can't do? Because you don't have a 4-year degree?

Is it just corporate policy?

It is. Um, and yeah, uh, it, it is definitely required. I've tried every avenue I can think of, and, um, I can't be, uh, in a supervisory role. And, uh, or—

How long have you worked there?

In a specialist—

I've worked there, um, For almost 20 years.

Okay. And so if you get a 4-year degree in what, nutrition or what?

Um, honestly, it could probably be in anything. I'm thinking business.

Yeah, just to check the corporate box. And then your income today is what?

Um, $65,000.

$65,000 a year is what you make?

Yeah.

How old are you?

$50,000. Okay.

And what, and what would you make 4 years from now if you got a degree in any old thing?

Well, a person of my work experience other than college and caliber, they make around $75,000 to $85,000.

Doing the exact same job?

Doing not what I do, But doing what I would want to be able to do.

Which is what?

Um, be a supervisor or maybe a—

Over the cafeteria?

A training specialist. Well, it would be over, um, several cafeterias, like 18. And my thought process is that even if it takes me 5 or 6 years If I—

being 50, that would still give me an additional 5, 6 years.

Okay, what I do like is the idea of improving yourself, putting some tools in your belt for you to be worth more and earn more. I like that. I don't like that you're doing it for an artificial ceiling that shouldn't be there. And so that makes me want to quit and go work for someone else.

Instead, I said something similar.

Yeah, I mean, because this is stupid that you have to have a 4-year degree in left-handed puppetry so you can go run 18 cafeterias, and you know how to run a cafeteria off the back of your hand without thinking about it. And these morons in corporate America have decided that a 4-year degree somehow makes you a genius. Some 4-year— somebody with a 4-year degree came up with this policy. That's how much of a genius they are. So. So I don't like that part of the discussion at all, but I love the idea of continuing personal growth. Continued personal growth is the best investment human beings can make. Going to events, going to seminars, reading books, studying, getting another certification, another degree, constant state of learning in a culture where the rate of change is so rapid that it's blinding, is necessary to win and to grow and to be better. And so I like all of that, and so I would tell you to go to school and study something. I don't mind that a bit. I also think you probably need to look at working somewhere else. John, what are you thinking?

Yeah, I'm thinking, one, at what a costly corporate mistake to not put somebody of your experience, caliber, leadership ability into the next right position that will improve everything for the company, their bottom line, their employee retention, their insider knowledge, all of it, simply for this one box. It's just corporations deciding we're going to outsource. We're going to use a metric to outsource value, and we're going to use a metric called degree or not degree as—

As a hard stop. I mean, we have some policies around Ramsey that we say that we start the policy with almost never. We almost never hire relatives of current team members because if you fire one, you lose the other one usually. So we just almost never do it, but we have occasionally. When common sense superimposed and stepped on top of a policy than we put the policy down.

And I've worked in university settings, which are the epicenter of this, right? You got to have a degree to breathe at a university campus, and I get it. I've had 2 different universities and 2 different employees that I would put as some of the best employees I've ever worked with, had no degree, but they were so skilled, and I gave them a path to eventually, if they wanted to, But I went and fought on their behalf.

Right.

And that's, that, so I'm frustrated there. On the other side of it, frustrated for you.

Yeah.

I grew up in a home where, and Dave's, what Dave said is really wise. So in what he said is very specific. My mom took her first community college class at the age of 41, and it was simply, I wanna get some training and some education so that I can go make some more money. And she found a whole new world. And so she graduated with her PhD at 63. and got tenured as, no, at 57, got tenured as a professor at 63. That was not even on her radar, not even her planet. And here was this woman from Texas that spent in her mid-70s, was teaching over at Oxford overseas. It gave her a whole new world. But the pursuit, and Dave was right here, was she wanted to grow herself and she wanted to keep learning and keep getting better.

Wasn't driven by an artificial corporate stupid policy.

That's it. That's right. Initially, I wanna get some training so I can get a job at a community college. And that led to another thing, led to another thing, but it was all based on, on wanna continue to grow. She spent time in, in corporations cuz she kept learning new things. And so if you do take this track, which I like Dave's support, make sure you study something that you're super interested in. Make sure you get there, get through it quickly too, and you find the least expensive option for you.

And you pay cash for it.

And you pay cash for it. And if this job goes away, you've got a toolset that you, your horizons, your toolkit, everything's been expanded so that you can go do other things besides just this one thing. Cuz they set you up for this.

Yeah. And by the way, skillset may tell you to leave.

That's exactly right. You might find out, oh my gosh, I have the skillset to go do the same thing at a warehouse instead of a cafeteria.

Then I don't have to work for stupid people.

And I can make quarter million dollars doing that, right?

Yeah.

Because you've got such amazing experience. You got experience working with parents, working with administrators, working with legislators, working with vendors. You've got so much experience that you may not even realize how marketable you are. That, yeah, that's great. But Dave, I just get frustrated by those hard stops, you know what I mean?

Yeah. So I mean, I can understand the concept, but I think an almost never in front of it, and then she's the exception, would be more— much less corporate stupidity.

It's just, it's just, it's just this corporate idea of you just box yourself into a corner unnecessarily, right?

Well, I mean, and this is why small businesses employ 57% of Americans. Because small businesses use common sense.

I need the person who can do this job.

Yeah. If you work for a family business, they actually most of the time have some brains. At least look at something through a reasonable lens. You might not agree with it, but they at least are— it's not a blind—

And is the reasonable lens, can you do this job well with excellence?

Yeah. I don't know what anyone's degree is in this place except yours because you talk about them all the time.

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Welcome back to The Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. Manny is in Atlanta, Georgia. Hi, Manny, how are you?

Good. How are you?

Better than I deserve.

What's up? Hey, so I got a rental property that's worth $600,000. Well, it's estimated between $575,000 and $600,000. I owe $340,000 on it, and I have $30,000 in personal debt and $20,000 in business debt. I'm coming up on a bonus next year that I should be able to wipe out all the debt. I'm trying to just, you know, but I'm feeling a little pressure and I'm not sure if I should sell that rental to pay off the debt.

What do you owe on your personal residence? Or just kind of hold it out. What do you owe on your home?

My home, I owe $200,000.

Okay.

Just under $199,000, I think.

Okay, cool. So you have a business debt, but you get a bonus. Sounds like you're an employee. How do you have both?

I have a business I purchased last year. Um, and I also have a full-time job.

Oh, okay. So your business that you bought has got the $30,000 and it's a side hustle.

The per— I have $30,000 in personal debt and then I have $20,000 in business debt.

Oh, $20,000 in business. Okay. So what kind of business debt? What do you owe them business debt on?

Who do you owe it to?

Credit cards.

Okay. It's not business debt. It's personal. You allocated it in your mind to business, but the bank doesn't know it's business. It's in your name.

Yeah.

So you have $20,000 in credit card debt because you used a credit card to buy a business.

Okay.

Okay.

All right.

And then $30,000 worth of other personal debt in addition to that. So none of— there's no such thing as business debt on something like this because banks don't loan money to businesses your size. They loan money to people that do things like businesses your size, which is fine. Okay. So anyway, minor detail. Now, so $250,000 gets you out of debt 100%, and you make what a year again? $250,000.

I make $60,000 a year, but then I get paid a bonus based on the revenue that the business that I work for does.

Another $50,000?

It's based on the revenue. So like this year, the bonus is projected to be $100,000, and I get paid it first quarter of the year and third quarter.

Wow.

And so next year I would get paid about $50,000 in January and then And the other $50,000 in July.

Okay.

All right. So the premise that we're using to answer your question overall, you've asked a very nuanced tactical question, but the principle is that what we have found in 30 years of— 35 years of doing this is, and proven it by the way, is the fastest method to build wealth is to not have debt. Because your most powerful wealth-building tool is your income. And when you give it to a stupid bank, it keeps you from building wealth. And so what I'm always going to lead you towards is being debt-free as soon as possible. The $50,000 in miscellaneous debt, the $200,000 mortgage, and the rental. And so I love rental properties, and you're making money, and you're making good money, and you're making it in kind of a weird way. Which is fun because it makes you live on the $60,000 and then gives you $100,000 to do something else with, it sounds like. Are you married?

Yes.

What does she make?

Well, she works in the business.

Okay, what's the business make a year?

Well, um, we just bought it, so this is our second year.

Well, you didn't pay money for a business that doesn't make money, did you?

Well—

Oh, you did?

Yes, we did. It does make money, but we've just invested it back into the business.

Okay, so what is the profit? What's the profit on the business a year?

Last year the business made— it was just under $60,000.

Okay, that you paid taxes on?

Yes.

Okay, okay. And so good, thank goodness.

What'd you buy it for?

$200,000. Okay.

And but, but you paid cash for all of it but $20,000?

No. So I'm sorry, I messed up on that. So I, I have it seller financed.

Oh, so there's more debt.

Okay.

How much do you owe the seller?

Right now it's about $60,000 that's left.

Okay. All right. Yes, sell the rental property and pay off the $60,000 and pay off the $50,000 and pay off your home mortgage, and then you're 100% debt-free and you're making $250,000 a year pretty soon. And you're cash— you're able to cash and invest and invest and invest and buy another rental property later on for cash if you want. But I'm gonna use this rental property to clean up this mess right now.

Okay.

Because here, think about this for a minute. How would you— what business decisions would you make that are different? And how would you walk and talk inside your office with your employer if you had no mortgage, no credit card, no debt, No seller financing, zero debt in your life. Can you breathe that level of peace into your lungs?

Oh, it'd feel really good.

Yeah, that's worth trading a rental property for.

Okay, so you wouldn't wait? And because I could pay off—

I know, I heard you. You can't pay it all. You, you just kept stacking debt in the conversation. For a minute, your bonus was going to handle it, but then after we finished the conversation, your bonus doesn't even come close anymore.

So how much do you cash flow What's the cash flow on this rental property?

Uh, $1,100.

Yeah. So put it this way, the $1,100— you're paying more than $1,100 in payments.

Yes. And this $100,000, you're going to clear all your debts off. And if you get this $100,000 bonus and it all comes through as you think it's going to, just— that's 8 years, what, 9 years of rental— of cash flow on this property.

Yeah. Yeah.

You just accelerated Exactly.

Right?

So pocket that, be happy, put that $100 grand towards the life you and your wife wanna live in investments and what— I mean, you'll have no payments. You'll do whatever you want with the $100,000.

Yeah. Go become a multimillionaire now with no debt payments and a great income and a good, a good business and a good job.

And by the way, you can, you can do this 2 ways emotionally. You can think you're quote unquote losing this rental house. Or you can think, thank God I have this thing that can clear up all of these goofy decisions I've made up until now and let me do a hard reset. And we've learned our lesson. We're never gonna borrow money again. We're gonna have $100 grand cash in the bank on top of what we already— what my, my salary. We were able to just do a control-alt-delete. That's an amazing place to be. Be really grateful that you're in this position.

Yeah.

Go sell that house.

It's wonderful. Yeah, that's exactly what I would do. And if you want to own real estate, just start stacking some of your bonuses in just, you know, in a high-yield savings and look over there and go, oh, there's $400,000 over there, let's go buy a rental house.

Yeah.

If you want to do that, that's okay, but that's 3 years out.

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Good, how are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

So I'm calling because I was in Baby Step 7, my husband and I, when we were 27 years old. We had a paid-off mortgage, no debt, and in the last 10 years we have just backslid. And I really don't have a good excuse for it other than it was just keeping up with the Joneses. And currently we're living in a house where our monthly income is— where our mortgage is about 33% of our monthly income. monthly income, and we just feel so overwhelmed at the end of every month, at the end of the month, financially. I was just wondering if you think I should sell my house and downsize to something cheaper.

Wow. I hear the pain of regret in your voice. Feels dirty, doesn't it?

Yeah, it really just feels like It's like we had it all figured out and now we're just normal.

Oh, you just got lazy. You got relaxed and then went back to being like everybody else. I'm so sorry.

How old are you, Kim?

That's a horrible feeling.

Yeah, so I'm 37, and in the last 3 years we have bought and sold 3 separate houses, and that's really where my apprehension comes in from selling my house and just— Uh, just, just, I guess just lifestyle creeps, just wanting—

You moved up every time? You moved up every time?

Yes.

Kayla, I want to— tell me if I'm wrong, I want to push on this a little bit. There is an unsettledness in your marriage, fair?

Uh, financially, definitely.

I—

and maybe it's just financially, but there's a— there's something that y'all are chasing That over here we're gonna finally feel a certain way, and then we need to go over here, and this will make us whole, and this will bring us— like, there's a, there's something that— a disconnection between you and your spouse that is— y'all are chasing with these other things.

You're looking for love in all the wrong places.

Yeah. Am I, am I off my rocker?

Uh, I have a pretty happy marriage.

It's okay.

I mean, I don't— I, I just, I do feel like we're chasing something, and it's Just that, you know, trying to keep up with the Joneses.

I'll be happy when. I'll be happy when. I'll be happy when.

Well, and you can have a happy marriage that's not a united one. You can have— if you can—

Discontented.

Yeah, one or both of you can be peacekeepers and y'all can find yourselves sitting 6 inches away from each other on the couch, but y'all are 6,000 miles from each other. Y'all are on different planets. And y'all could say, no, we're happy. We don't yell. We don't scream. We like each other. But that's different than being, we are unified building a thing together and building this thing has costs and it has wins associated with it. But all I have to say is, yeah, I'll let Dave answer the question.

It just sounds like it's— I agree. It sounds like there's discontentment has been driving this. And contentment is a spiritual decision. Godliness with contentment is great gain. To be able to just sit and breathe and call where I am okay, and we're not going to die from where we are. We're going to work to be better. We're going to be ambitious, but we can also be content.

We're being ambitious for a thing.

Yeah, the difference is that we're not chasing happiness in a wrong location. Like, it'll all be okay when. I'll be happy if I got this. I'll be happy if I did that. I'd be happy if I had a better car. I'd be happy if the kids were in that school district. I'd be happy if we We had a white kitchen or whatever, which might've been said at my house a few years ago. But yeah.

And what you found is every new house y'all bought, y'all went with you, right?

So I want you to get under the hood on this. You and your husband sit down and start talking about it. Okay, what were we chasing that caused us to make these decisions? And I don't want to make a new decision Using that same chase.

That's exactly right.

I wanna make a new decision based on math. And does it take us towards our new goal?

Because yes, in it, cuz you've run towards a different house, a quote unquote upgrading house for the last 3 years. You're still gonna be running. You might be running a different direction, but you're still just running from something instead of saying, hey, I love that the diagnosis of the, of our problem. If we just say, what, what have we been chasing? And who do we want to be? How do we want our— wherever we live, a one-bedroom apartment or a really fancy house, how do I want this house to feel? And man, begin to reverse engineer the action steps we're going to take so that we can get to this warmth and joy and laughter. What do we want our life to feel like in life?

Really heartfelt, authentic question. I like your question.

It's a great question.

I love it.

I appreciate you being vulnerable about it and letting us jump onto the— jump on this problem with you. Yeah, so this is what drives a lot of stuff. I mean, sometimes I'm asked, you know, what's the most powerful financial principle? Contentment.

Hmm.

Because when you're content, you don't go in debt to buy something you can't afford. When you're content, you can live on less than you make. When you're content, you can be generous. When you're content, you can invest and save because you don't have to consume all of Who, uh, who was, uh, Warren Buffett's right-hand man? Uh, Charlie.

Yeah, man, he has some great one-liners about like, my watch costs $30 and it tells the same time your watch does, right? Like just some— if you can learn to settle in here and just drop your shoulders, man, you, you kind of, you become so free. You can do whatever you want because you're not subject to the whims of other people's approval.

It's strange though. I mean, and part of contentment is, is I don't care what anybody thinks.

Yeah.

Which we always find that statement among millionaires.

Yeah.

I became— I got out of debt and I became wealthy when I quit caring what others think.

Why do you drive a Toyota and you're worth $4 million? I don't care. Why do you—

I'm not taking a poll.

Yeah. Why do you wear those shoes?

At a stoplight from people I don't even know.

Because I don't care. Yeah, yeah. But it's— Dave, I think people hear this as, for lack of better terms, oppressive speech. This is the most empowering thing you could tell somebody is Unhook yourself from all of these phantom judgments that you think are being cast your way and get in the driver's seat of your own life. Become the chief agent in where you and your spouse want to go, man. You, you become— you can just do anything.

Yeah.

And it's pretty extraordinary.

We had a relative when we got hardcore after the bankruptcy. We got hardcore and we still are. We never quit. Yeah. We don't borrow money. for anything ever. And we don't care what you think.

Period.

Now, I'll try to convince you for your sake if you're asking me a question. That's what I do here on the air. But in terms of, do I need your approval to become as wealthy as we have become by not borrowing money? No, I don't need your approval. Not at all. I'm not taking a poll. And then we had a relative this like, I'm worried about y'all. I think that bankruptcy damaged you. I think you need counseling. And I'm like, for sure, but not for the reasons you think. And so we took her on a cruise a few years later. Well, just to say thanks for her advice that was full of crap. Yeah, I think you need counseling. I think you've joined a cult. Is that church you're going to a cult? Church lady, right? I'm just like, Thank you, Dana Carvey.

But if you find yourself running and you're running from thing to thing to thing—

That's so good, Kayla. Thank you. You got us off. You got us off on this.

Yeah, the most helpful thing you can do sometimes is just stop running.

Why?

Stop running?

What am I running? What— why am I— why am I in this race? Yeah, it's— they call it the rat race.

Yeah, the— man, I just— I was telling you off-air, they don't call it the thoroughbred race.

They call it rats.

book by Ty Winn. He's a professor at the University of Utah called The Score. But he asked this really important question in the book: is this the game I want to be playing?

That's it.

And man, that question is— I ask myself that 10 times a day.

Take my marbles and go home. Thank you, brother.

Somebody cuts me off in traffic and I feel that— is this a game I want to play? No, right? To like all of it.

Is this the hill you really want to die on?

Is this it?

No, man.

That's so good.

I want joy in my house. That's what I want.

All right, let's cut to the chase. It's easy to get discouraged about crazy house prices and interest rates. But when you have the right real estate agent to help you buy and sell the right way, you'll have confidence to make smart decisions. Ramsey Trusted Agents aren't just experts who guide you through buying or selling. They're people you can trust to have your back from the first call to closing day. Find a Ramsey Trusted Agent near you at ramseysolutions.com/agent. That's ramseysolutions.com/agent. Mark is in Buffalo, New York. Hey, Mark, how are you?

I'm great. Hey Dave, thanks for taking my phone call.

Sure. What's up?

Well, I'm trying to convince my wife that for the next couple of years, I'm hoping to retire in the next 4 to 5 years, to invest in the markets instead of memories. I know that sounds kind of odd. She would rather spend the money. I don't want to say now, but rather spend it on the kids and grandkids making memories. than leaving a legacy.

Well, you should do both.

Um, I'm trying to convince her that, um, our, our, that's not really an angry discussion. Our discussions mostly center on she likes to, uh, take our entire family on cruises.

And, um, what's your net worth?

Um, Probably about 1.2 or 1.3.

Okay.

And what's your household income?

Uh, about $190,000.

And what does she spend on a cruise when she takes the whole family?

About $30,000, $35,000.

Okay. That doesn't keep you from investing.

It, well, I guess in a way it does. We definitely, we max out our 401.

It keeps you from, well then you're investing.

Well, I'd like to put more in because I would, I would love to leave my kids and grandkids something. I don't want to say substantial because I know that—

You're a millionaire.

Yeah.

What'd your parents leave you?

Um, thank God I have both my parents still.

Okay. What will they leave you? $10 million?

No.

Okay.

No.

Um, and you're gonna be okay Your kids are gonna be okay.

So I should just let her have her enjoyment?

No, I think you ought to both be— you ought to be investing and you ought to let her have her enjoyment, and you have the money to do both, sir.

Okay.

Have you ever been successful in convincing?

No.

Okay, because even the way you asked that question is It suggests y'all are sitting on opposite sides of the table, you versus your wife.

And it's not an argument. It's mostly I really want to retire. I've owned a restaurant for almost 40 years now. My feet, legs, and hips and back are shot.

Okay.

And when I finally do retire, that $190,000 is not going to be coming in. Agreed.

So agreed. But hold Hold on.

He wants me to work until I'm about 65, 66, 67, and I don't want that.

Have you had that conversation? I'm in pain.

Yes.

I want to enjoy the rest of my life with you, with the grandkids.

And we don't have enough saved to do that right now.

Well, you guys are old enough to remember 2008, and a small part of this, maybe a major part, is that I had a lot of hubris when I was young and, uh, put our business almost into almost $1 million in debt to the state, the feds, purveyors, insurance, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So she has this idea that money is fleeting and to enjoy it while you have it. And, um, since 2008, we've paid off our house, we've paid off our mortgage. We have about half a million in our, uh, So we climbed out of that hole by doing the Ramsey thing before we knew, before we knew there was Ramsey.

Yeah. Good for you. Um, well done.

We sold everything. We lived on—

So you're how old today, did you say?

58.

Okay. All right. So I think you sit down and start having some very granular conversations and say, okay, my back hurts, my hips hurt. I'm not doing this till I'm 67.

I can't.

And, and so what's gonna happen is, is that if we— to the extent we spend all of the investment money, we're gonna end up in a much reduced lifestyle from the time I retire on. And so this— so we can do some things. We can do the occasional cruise for everybody. We can still do a $30,000 thing. That's, that's not undoable, but we can't do 3 of Because the other 2 things that are that size, I need to go into investing so that we're doing both things well. And I need your— I need you to join me emotionally in doing both of these things, having fun with the money and investing it, instead of me feeling like I'm dragging you kicking and screaming and you're like a kid on the cereal aisle throwing a fit that you want sugary cereal right now. And I don't, you know, so I want us to be joined, uh, and the healing from 2008, from the mistakes, is in our rearview mirror. And we're joined together and we're walking into a cool new future that's a $2 or $3 million net worth in our early 60s. And we're— and while we're doing that, we're going to do some fun things too.

But I'm nervous about that. So my tendency is to run Honey over onto the saving-only side And your tendency is to run over to the other side. Both are actually correct, and we need to be doing both, but we need to be unified in doing both.

And it— man, couldn't have said it better. And the thing I'll add is, Mark, you need a finish line because you're gonna chase the word substantial. You're gonna chase the word legacy. And if you don't give yourself a— I want every grandkid to get $25,000. I want my 4 kids to each get— if you don't give yourself sums in that, that, by the way, that finish line can move. move, right? Let's say you sell your restaurant and you get 8 times what you thought. That can move, but man, you're going to be chasing a never— an ever-moving finish line called substantial and called legacy if you don't put some concrete ideas around that.

If your grandkids and kids have got no sense, it doesn't matter if you leave them a million or $10 million. It'll be gone in 4 months.

And you probably don't think any less of your parents.

Either. Yeah, you don't, because you know you're not going to leave you a ton of money from them. Yeah. And so, and I don't, you know, so I I, you know, leaving— changing your family tree is a good goal. It's a good goal unless it drives you to do, um, like you're incomplete if you don't do it somehow.

There you go.

And, uh, so that, that's what we want to avoid. Brian is with us. Brian is in Joplin, Missouri. Hey Brian, what's up?

Yes sir, I'm a heavy equipment mechanic and I was I was needing help on this decision to run my business full-time or to keep working for my current employer.

What's your business?

I'm a mobile heavy equipment mechanic.

How much are you making doing that?

About $4,000 a month. That's just in the evenings after 5:30 to about 10 or 11 o'clock at night. And then on the weekends.

Good for you. And what do you make on your day job?

About $5,500 a weekly. $35 an hour doing it 60 hours a week.

So you're making $20,000 a month at your day job?

No, sir, just, uh, $5,500 monthly.

Monthly, not weekly. You said weekly.

Okay.

And so you got one that's doing $5,500 a month and one that's doing $4,000 a month, right?

Yes, sir. And I get it's hard to juggle the two at the moment.

Can you cut your hours back on your heavy equipment day job?

That's what I currently did, the 40 hours a week. And I'm— it's still hard to balance because I'm— I hear you.

Can you cut it? Can you cut it more?

Um, I can see— I can ask him and see.

Yeah, I would ask my employer to let me, uh, have Fridays off.

Yes, that's what I'm currently doing now. And, uh, I've got established customers and I'm— seems I know I could double it if I had Ended up doing it.

Well, we hope you can double it because you're getting ready to cut your pay in half when you quit.

Yes, sir, that's right.

So what I like to do in these situations— I want you to do this, okay? But I, I, I want to always say I want to pull the boat really close to the dock so I'm not taking a leap of faith. And right now you're taking a leap of faith, like you're going to cut $5,500 if you quit today out of your a month, and you got to make that up, and you're only making 4 now. And if you don't make it up, then you're gonna, you're gonna feel that water when you hit it. So I, I'd like to say we're making 6 or 7 on the business, and we've cut the hours down on the day job. That gets the boat closer to the dock, and then you just step into the boat. You don't have to jump and hope you hit Hit it. And, and so that's what I'm going to do. I want to get your— I know you're tired and you're a hardworking dude, and I love what you're doing.

It's impressive, man.

I want you to go do this. I want you to go in business for yourself. I'm going to send you a copy of Building a Business You Love, our book, and I want you to read it. Our big Investing Essentials event is next Tuesday and Wednesday. Don't miss your chance to be there. Investing isn't difficult, but it's not something you can learn in a 60-second TikTok video. So at this 2-night virtual event, George Campbell and I will walk you through my playbook for investing and wealth planning. We'll simplify everything from maximizing your 401 to reducing taxes and setting up wills and real estate and much more. Join us next week on September 1st and 2nd. Tickets start at $199. Get yours now at ramseysolutions.com/events or by clicking the link in the show notes. Our Scripture of the Day, 1 Corinthians 10:13, no temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful, he will not let you be tempted beyond beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it. Ronald Reagan said, status quo, you know, is Latin for the mess we're in.

That is fantastic.

That's great. I love it. Oliver's in Connecticut. Hey, Oliver, what's up in your world?

Hey, Dave, thanks for taking my call. I love your show.

Well, thank you, sir.

Yes. Uh, my question, I'm 46, single, no kids, no debt. Um, I haven't had any kind of full-time work in about a year and a half. Uh, I do have some pretty good savings, and I'd like to know your opinion if you think I may be able to, to retire at this point today. Uh, yeah, I mean, I mean, yes, yes, not have to work again.

What are you going to do with the rest of your life?

Well, you know, it's funny, I actually interviewed for a part-time minimum wage job today because it has been kind of boring. I tried to get some jobs. I haven't had luck because they say you don't have the education or grad school or experience. So it has been a little boring.

What are you going to do with the rest of your life, Oliver?

I would like to have a wife and a child, and so that's part of the question is—

And that requires not working?

Uh, well, yeah, I mean, it's— it may be a possibility. I'm— again, I'm not— I can tell you my financials and maybe you could tell me your opinion.

My opinion is you shouldn't quit work at 46 regardless of your financials. You should be doing something You ought to be doing something for the good of mankind and yourself. You don't have to work a slave job. You don't have to work 40 hours or 80 hours a week or something, but you ought to be doing something. Okay, so what is your net worth? What do you have saved?

I have $2.7 million in a brokerage. $1 million of that's in a Roth. Those are, like you suggest, mutual funds and ETFs that average about 10 to 11%. I have a 3-family house I own, which cash flows about $300 a month. I have $30,000 in HSA, $40,000 high-yield savings account, and—

Where'd you get all that?

I ran a tennis business for about 15 years.

And sold it?

No, I was leasing space out of an indoor tennis club. And they sold the club. I was trying to buy the club, and the owner was going to sell it to me, and then at the last minute, he said he sold it to a golf buddy. The golf buddy came in, and he said, I have new plans for the place, and you're not part of them.

Okay. So you lost your lease, and you just closed the business, but the money came from making a lot of money in the tennis business.

Yeah. I set it up as an S corp. I had 1099 workers.

But I mean, you made a profit, a lot of money, and you stacked it. That's where the money came from. That's what I'm trying to ascertain.

I— yeah, I live a simple life.

Okay, so what does it take you to live on a year if you wanted to not work anymore? What do you need to live on?

Well, right now it's about $85,000 a year. Okay. Uh, but I rent and I would like to buy a house.

Yeah, well, your, your non-Roth investments should be generating more than $85,000 year.

Mm-hmm.

And so yeah, you could quit today, but aside— like I said earlier, aside from the finances, I don't think you need to quit today. And you are a proven entrepreneur. You ran a very lucrative business. You developed the business model, obviously a love for tennis that you parlayed into whatever sources of revenue there and, you know, and stacked $3 million. Way to go, and you're only 46. So, um, I don't— you know, do you not remember how alive you felt when you were fighting those battles growing that business?

It felt— it did feel good, and I haven't been able to come up with any other entrepreneurial ideas. And before that business, part of working so hard hard was I had 8 or 9 jobs that were just terrible, most of them being commission-only, dollar-for-dollar sales jobs.

Okay, so don't do that. You don't have to. You got $85,000 coming off that brokerage account, so we're not stressed about where we're going to go or what we're going to do. But, um, if you want a wife and kid, I think you're a lot more attractive if you're actually out there doing something. And, um, most women don't want to marry a couch potato. Even if they're independently wealthy.

Yeah.

And, and the research is pretty clear that if you— if you— when you quit to do nothing, your body gets the message and it, it will start to send the signals, we're done here, our work is done here. And you'll see your health fall off a cliff, your emotional, mental health will fall off a cliff. Your body just starts shutting it down. So—

So I, I would go and do, you know, if Ramsey closed today, I'm 66, not 46, I would go and open a business because it's fun, because I enjoy— I enjoy business. I enjoy running a business. I enjoy the, the challenge. I enjoy the building of something that's profitable, that the marketplace likes and gives you money for. And I'll say this, happy customer.

You are the most singularly focused business person I've ever been around who's got an obsession with helping the first— the frontline customer, right? Like, I know you like building a business, but I think you like helping people.

Yeah, but that's— a good business does that.

That's exactly right.

If you're running car repair, you better like helping people.

That's right. That's exactly right.

Yeah, if you're, you know, if you're in the— if you're a doctor, a medical doctor, you should like helping people feel better.

Yeah. So Oliver, like, what about your— did you like the tennis business? Because, man, go open a tennis business. Or did you like the teaching part? Or do you like seeing the bulb come on in young kids and teenagers and taking pretty good athletes and making them— helping them become excellent. Like, what about that? Did you love— do you— could do that anywhere.

Yeah, exactly.

All over the place.

But finding—

And so going and interviewing for a job and them saying you don't have a degree after you made $3 million is kind of funny.

Yeah, it's absurd.

The guy telling you that's making— used to be your employee.

Yeah, he used to hire you to give— teach his kid how to play tennis, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, and so no, that, that's not— that does not steal my hope and make me want to quit. Quite to the contrary, it gives me a real reason to go start a business and kick his butt. All right, Joey's in Grand Rapids. Hey Joey, what's up?

Hey, uh, so I am a recovering gambling addict. Uh, today's 31 days from not gambling.

Good for you, congratulations dude.

Thank you.

Way to go. What were you gambling on?

Stupid apps like MGM, like on the slot machines and stuff. It's a losing game.

Yeah, it is. The house wins. Okay, good for you.

Howdy, Joey.

How can we help?

Thank you. Yeah, so I've, uh, I started budgeting in June of this year from watching you guys' show, and I've accumulated some debt from gambling. I've already paid off— I started with $28,000 in debt. I got it down to $23,911.

Good. Way to go.

But I'm trying to figure out how to prioritize.

List your debts, list your debts smallest to largest. Yes, regardless of what kind of debt or what the interest rate is.

Yeah, absolutely. Credit cards, I owe $10,115.

On one card?

Person—

oh no, it's, uh, 4 separate cards.

List them individually. Okay, smallest to largest, smallest to largest, and pay minimum payments on everything but the little one.

Definitely.

And attack the little one with a vengeance. Hey, we want to be part of your healing. I'm excited for your journey. We're going to send you a copy of The Total Money Makeover, which will show you exactly how to do all of this stuff, Joey. Way to go, man. I'm proud of you. We're also going to sign you up for EveryDollar, the advanced version of our budgeting app, to also help you to continue this healing process. We want to be there for you and give you everything you can do. Hey, you young guys out there, you need to take Joey's cue. Fastest thing that's destroying men, young men in their 20s, is sports betting. I mean, DraftKings is not a blessing to your life. I'll just tell you, it's screwing up more of you guys than anything else we're running into. So Joey's just the tip of the iceberg. So make sure you do this stuff. Hey guys, that's how it's done. It's common sense for your dollars and cents. And, you know, Grandma's advice still works, even if it's filtered through a John Delony or Dave Ramsey.

It's just live on less than you make, man. Works 100% of the time.

There it is. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.