Transcript of Financial Peace Starts With Personal Honesty

Brought to you by the EveryDollar app. Start budgeting for free today. Normal is broken. Common sense is weird. So we're here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey Network and the Fairwinds Credit Union studio, this is the Ramsey Show. I'm your host, Dave Ramsey. Rachel Cruz, Ramsey personality, number one bestselling author, co-host of the Smart Money Money Happy Hour on Ramsey Networks, and my daughter is my co-host today. Open phones here at 888-825-5225. The call is free, and some say the advice is worth exactly what you pay for it. Logan is in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Hey Logan, what's up?

Hey, how you doing today?

Better than I deserve. How can we help, sir?

Um, I started a business 18 months ago. Um, I've been working 70 to 100 hours a week. Uh, right now we're barely breaking even. I 2 full-time jobs, and I have a 7-week-old at home. So I'm wondering, at what point do you decide when to exit the business, and if there's a good workflow for that? I guess just kind of a general question around that, what's—

what your thought would be.

Okay, well, you exit a business not when it's hard, because 100% of the time you run a business is hard.

Okay.

You exit a business when you lose hope that in a reasonable period of time this is going to be profitable and all of my effort is going to be worth the trouble. We don't want to run a business for 10 years that's not profitable. That's called a hobby, and a bad one, right? So, but you're a whole year in. Um, when did you think you were going to be profitable?

Uh, well, I didn't, I predicted about 3 years before we started. Um, I started being able to take any money out of the business. Um, but I thought it would be self-sustaining about where we're at right now. And we're—

Oh, you thought it'd be breaking even?

Yeah, I thought it'd be, um, I could, let me rephrase. I thought I could, uh, pay somebody to run it part-time.

Oh.

By now, and I actually have somebody running it part-time. We have a— it's a slow bleed. It's not killing me unless I— well, with the— so it loses money to pay somebody to run it? Yes. For the first 8 months we were open, I, I have a— I, I work from home.

I actually worked—

what do you do? What is the business?

The business is it's a gym, and then there's actually a second business which is a supplement shop within that business. So there's 2 of them technically.

You opened a gym?

Yep.

As a side hustle?

Uh, I guess.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. Okay.

And are either one of those profitable, the, the gym itself or the supplements business inside of the gym?

It's inside of the gym. Yes, the gym is profitable. They together— the gym is profitable, and then the supplements, I actually that's where I run my payroll out of, and that has a slight loss every month. So they about break even with like maybe $100, $200 a month loss.

Okay, so you can handle $100 a month. What is your income on your regular job?

Well, between the two of them, I take home about—

No, you don't take anything home from the gym.

No, from the jobs I go to.

You have two other jobs. Between the two jobs. You have two other jobs. I'm sorry, stop again. You have 2 jobs in addition to the gym?

Yes.

Okay, so what is your main career?

I am a data analyst.

Okay, and what do you make as a data analyst?

Uh, I gross $200,000 with both jobs.

And they're both data analyst jobs?

Yeah.

Yep.

Okay, so is there one that is substantially more than the other, or $100,000 each?

They're about $100,000 each. One has significantly better benefits. The other one's a contract position, which is renewed every 6 months. So it's not guaranteed, I guess. It's not guaranteed employment.

Okay.

And your, your wife is at home with the baby?

Correct.

Okay. So you're making $200,000 a year. You have a business that's losing $100 a month.

Yes.

I don't know.

What's the problem?

The problem is it's not, it's actually, it's in a, it's in a negative. I don't have the time right now. I don't have the time to put into the business because I have both jobs.

Well, you had that when you started the business.

Yeah.

And we were doing, we were doing well. And then I got the second job to add somebody to run it. And then this person is running it part-time and it needs about 15 hours a week of my attention to, You know, it needs, it needs some overview. The day-to-day is taken care of, but it needs, you know, that a growth trajectory.

Yeah, that didn't change though. That's what you signed up for a year ago.

Yep.

Okay, so what you've added to your plate that is causing things to fall off of your plate is the contract job. It's not the gym.

Uh, yes, but I need the contract job because the, the, I need to get out of debt. The, there's, I have at least, I needed to pay off at least $20,000 in debt.

Yes.

Oh, you have debt?

Yes.

The gym has about $80,000 in debt to start it up.

Oh Jesus. What a bad idea. Yeah.

I learned that the hard way.

Oh man. I'm catching on now. Okay. I just, I was looking at the income streams. I didn't think about that. I'm sorry. My bad.

Um, Okay, the, the business—

how old are you?

29.

Okay, can you cut the contract back to half the number of hours for $50,000?

Uh, I can, I can ask. It's an, it's an hourly rate, so possibly.

Okay, to where you can breathe actual logistics on just time. Okay, because you have a full-time job plus a part-time job then, plus another part-time job at the gym, because we really just can't walk away from the $80,000 in debt one year in when it's doing exactly what was projected to do. The only thing that changed is you just kept adding crap to— because you wanted to get the $80,000 paid off and you can't get it all done in a day. Uh, essentially you stressed yourself out by adding stacks and stacks of stuff, stuff to your plate, and the baby made you realize that.

Yeah, that was, that was a—

yeah, that was the straw. That was the straw that broke the camel's back, you know. And that's okay, that's, that's a great straw. So if you're gonna have one, that's the one to have. But the, yeah, so, you know, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna sit down and look at this, I'm gonna talk to my wife and I say, all right, for 4 more months, 6 more months, 2 more months, 8 more months, I'm gonna keep the exact schedule I'm keeping right now so I can keep $200 coming in and I'm gonna knock X out of that $80,000 and it's gonna cost us, 'cause I am, burning the candle at both ends and in the middle. But I can't do that forever. I can do it for this amount of time, and we're prayerfully gonna— you know, you're gonna give me a lot of grace, and you're not gonna expect super dad to be there every time the kid poops its diaper. I've gotta get this thing out of the ditch. Okay? And I started this business when Rachel was a baby. And it was 80 hours a week. And Sharon and I agreed to that.

And she never whined one time after we agreed to that. But we also said there's a limited amount of time a human being can do this without exploding. And so you need to decide what that is. You're sensing that things are on fire because they're on fire. So the way to survive that is to Go as close to the fire as you can get without getting burned and go, okay, the most I can do is 90 more days and then I'm gonna pull back to part-time on the contract so that I can breathe again. But in the meantime, I'm gonna pour the coals on and see how much of this debt I can knock out so I've got better options. You don't have really good options right now.

Hey, let's play a quick game of would you rather. Would you rather keep overpaying your phone company every month, or save $600 a year with no contract and no price hikes ever? Easy answer. That's why I love Boost Mobile. With their low rates, you can unlock up to $600 in savings over the so-called big carriers. You can bring your phone, keep your number, and pay just $25 a month forever on the unlimited plan. Because you've got better things to do with your money. So go to boostmobile.com/ramsey to make the switch today. Based on average annual payment of AT&T, Verizon, and T-Mobile customers compared to 12 months on the Boost Mobile Unlimited plan as of January 2026. See website for full details.

Kate is in Billings, Montana. Hi Kate, how are you?

Hi, good, how are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

Um, I wanted to talk to you today about my husband. Um, he loves new trucks and he has switched trucks about 7 times in the last 6 years, and he changed, uh, vehicles twice last year. Um, and so he usually just texts me when, when he's making this change, and I've tried to talk to him about how it's a bigger deal than that because we are, are usually losing money on this transaction.

Oh, every time.

Yes.

So I just wanted your thoughts.

How much do you guys make a year, Kate?

Um, so he's actually making quite a bit of money now, but this is new for us. So he founded his own technology company company doing logistics, and it grossed about $1 million last year.

What did it net?

Um, uh, I think $1.4 million.

It netted— you paid taxes on $1 million?

Yes.

Gross and net is different, you know that.

Okay, sorry, I might be—

okay, what did you bring home? What, what hit your account Your household income. What did he bring home?

Our household income was over $600,000. I know we owed a ton in taxes, so.

Okay, so he can afford to lose the money. That's— but he's disrespecting his wife.

Yes, so we have 3 kids and he's my second husband, and so This is just all, I think it's just all, um, we're still going through growing pains of how do we manage money together.

And 7 years, you ought to be able to figure it out. You can grow a company that makes $1.2 million. You ought to be able to figure out how to manage money.

Yeah.

He just hasn't bothered. He's kind of run around, does whatever the flip he wants to do because he's making money and he doesn't, you know, and in the process is disrespecting you.

That's how I feel.

Yeah, no, that's, that's what is observable. It's not just a feeling.

Kate, what does he say when you text him, or what's his response when you guys talk about it and you're frustrated? What does he say? Just like it's—

so it typically, it gets us into an argument because he kind of—

I don't think he likes being told what to do or, you know, how to spend his money, but he denies that he's he's disrespecting me or not, you know, consulting with me. But his idea of consulting with me is basically just telling you, texting me, telling me what he's gonna do. So that's kind of where we're in disagreement.

And he's going to fail as an entrepreneur. And the reason I know that is I coach 10,000 businesses through EntreLeadership, and entrepreneurs who do not listen to their wives don't make it long-term. You cannot out-earn that level of stupidity. I tried it, it doesn't work, and it'll get you. Okay, so the arrogance that is attached to this means he's also not listening to his key leaders when they're speaking up and saying this is a dumb idea. He's not listening to anybody because he freaking thinks he's Superman, and this is going to lead to him hitting the wall. So I'm scared. I'm really, really afraid for him. Because right now, this isn't a big enough problem that it's actually causing him any discomfort. But the root of this is very, very dangerous from a business perspective, because leaders that don't have humility and take input from proper sources do not lead well. And it's pretty simple. And so, I mean, I've got key people on this team, some of them have been with me 30 years, and they're like brothers and sisters to me, and they speak into the Ramsey thing that happens here. And believe you me, to the extent that she wants to, Sharon Ramsey speaks into this place and what's going on.

Do we do every single thing Sharon wants to do? No, but we don't do every single thing Dave wants to do either. So, but you guys have a breakdown in your relationship and the power of the relationship. It's almost as if he has his life over to one side and then he comes home and has a family.

Well, that's what feels always a little bit off.

Disjointed.

Yeah. And even when he uses like, well, I've been making a lot of money, so I get to go over here, right? It's like this— it turns into this isolated instance where that's the opposite of marriage, right? When you're married to someone and you're doing life with someone, it should be integrated, right? You're still going to have your own thoughts and opinions. It's not that, but it's that we make big decisions together. We talk about this. We are united in these things.

So all of this to say that your frustration with this, I think, and Rachel thinks, is accurate. Now, what to do about it is another thing. I'm afraid for him long-term. 5 years from today, this is not going to be pretty, is my prediction. And I coached— again, we coached 10,000 businesses here at Ramsey. We work with small businesses every day, and I see them come and I see them go, and I watch what happens. So what I would say is that I think you guys have a marriage problem that has a deep, deep root to it. And I would say that I love you guys, and I want the two of you to get some healing in that. And so if I'm— if If you're my little sister, I'm gonna say, "Hey, Kate, stir up some trouble, and let's get into the marriage counselor's office, because he thinks this is okay, and you've let it go on, and you're gonna get what you tolerate." [Speaker:GINGER] And any level of belittling what you're feeling and thinking too, right?

They use the term "gaslighting" all the time, but genuinely, you start to feel crazy, Kate, right? And until your voice and your opinion is heard and actually, honored, like, that's gonna start breaking down in other areas, not just buying a new truck every year.

Yeah. And it's already breaking down stuff down at the office that you don't even know is happening. Promise you. And it could even be worse than that. I hope it's not. But these are symptoms that don't lead— of core problems that don't lead to good places.

No. And it's a perfect example how money's a magnifying glass. It makes you more of what you are. That this was always a little bit of him, and then he goes and makes a million bucks, you know, and it just— it starts to magnify. And that's the danger that money can do. And when you win financially really quickly, like you guys have over, you know, 1 to 2 years, it's almost like you don't— he doesn't even have the emotional capacity to handle it. He's just still that little boy in him that's just being magnified. And he just wants to go buy a new truck, you know? And so—

I want a Tonka truck.

Yeah, that's tough.

I'm 4. I want a new Tonka truck, Mommy. Don't tell me I can't have it. Yeah.

That's the other thing too, is I'm like, Kate's a smart woman. And if you look at the numbers, to your point, they can afford that. Like if he wanted to go do that, so it's not—

Honestly, he can afford to do it. It's just the process he's using.

That's what I'm saying is like, it's not even that she would say no to it either.

I'm afraid he's scratching an itch that's not really there. So, yeah.

Chasing the newness of something.

I love cars. I'm a car guy and I like cool cars and fun cars and I buy cars. But I don't have a, an emotional need to flip a truck every year. I'm perfectly happy with the one I got, you know. And so there's something in that too. Yeah, I mean, you know, you just got to get there. There's something going on. So you guys, you really need to sit down with someone that forces him to hear that it's not necessarily the transaction that's bothersome, it's the way the transaction is going down. And that you're not being heard and you're not being respected, and you're not. So you're not crazy. And I'm afraid that the stuff that's under this is going to come to roost in a way y'all aren't going to like in the long term. I'm pretty sure it will.

And unless— unless you don't—

unless you fix it.

Yeah.

And unless he comes aware and you come— you know, all of it, and you guys start a new process of life, of the way you look at things and think about things and process things, all of it out of healing.

So if you're out there and you're running a small business and your spouse has no idea what's what's going on at the business, it's a problem, y'all. That's what I'm telling you. You small business people, you can listen to me, okay? You bootstrap stuff, you fight, you scratch, you claw, you're in a battle every day. You got the battle ax out and the sword out and 3 guns out and you're fighting and fighting and fighting and fighting and fighting just to stay alive and you finally start making some money, but in the middle of that, you become very, very lonely if you do not have people walking with you in leadership and that— and who can find a virtuous wife? For her worth is far above rubies. The heart of her husband safely trusts her and he will have no lack of gain. You want no lack of gain? I want no lack of gain. I like that formula. Then trust a virtuous wife.

Hmm.

In the multitude of counsel, there is safety. I bet you 10 rich friends get around him, none of them will tell him to buy a truck every stinking year.

I promise you.

Finally, mortgage rates have dropped, and you know what that means? People who've been sitting on the sidelines are about to jump back into the housing market. So if you've been waiting to buy, this could be your window, but you've got to be prepared and do it the right Ramsey way, you need to contact Churchill Mortgage. Their Homebuyer Edge program gives you peace of mind in a wild market. You can cap your rate for 90 days, so if rates go up, you're protected. If rates go down, Churchill will drop yours automatically. And get this, Churchill will even back your offer with a $10,000 seller guarantee. So if your loan falls through due to financing, the seller still gets paid. That's how confident Churchill is. Plus, when you shop as a Churchill Certified Home Buyer, it's stronger than pre-approval. It makes you look like a cash buyer, which makes your offer rise to the top. So don't let this moment pass you by. Get ready now. Go to churchillmortgage.com to get started today. That's churchillmortgage.com. This is a paid advertisement. Home Buyer Edge and Seller Guarantee are available for qualifying borrowers and select loan types only and not available in all states or locations.

NMLS ID 1591, NMLSConsumerAccess.org, equal housing lender.

Well, the Ramsey Show, watching this show happen as we tape it right in front of you. Is going on tour next month. In April, we're gonna be in Charlotte, Denver, Phoenix, and Anaheim. If you've never experienced the Ramsey Show in person, then you've never seen it like this before. It's a perfect date night. One of you is a spender, one of you is a saver. Come out. Rachel, John, George, Jade, Ken will settle your money debates right there in front of all the people in the audience. Tickets are almost sold out, but not quite. There's a few left, and just a with a couple of VIP seats remaining. Don't wait, go to ramseysolutions.com/events or click the link in the show notes if you're listening on podcast or YouTube. Michael's in Green Bay. Hey Michael, what's up?

Hey Dave, it's nice talking to you. I listen to your show quite a bit and I am about 20 years old with about $50,000 in debt.

Wow.

$30,000 of that being a car loan. 3 of it being from a Square loan from the business that I shut down here recently. And some of it's medical, like just outstanding medical debt. Like, I mean, I was in a motorcycle accident 3 years ago that I still haven't paid. Um, I owe a friend of a fan or family friend about $3,000. Um, I owe like a tire shop almost $2,000. Like, I, I guess my question that I want to ask you today is like, I don't know where to start with this because it feels like a lot. And I truthfully don't know where a lot of the debt is. Um, like I owe a dermatology group, sorry, like $800 and I owe like other medical companies money. And I just don't know exactly where all that debt is, where the creditors are. Like every now and then I get calls.

Yeah. Michael, so How has your life been so chaotic in the last 2 or 3 years that this has happened? And because it sounds like you're just spiraling, man.

Sounds like chaos. Yeah, I'd agree. Yeah, truthfully it is. And 2 years ago I started my own business with my best friend. We found a building to go into and truthfully it just kind of took off like crazy.

And then it didn't.

Correct. I had bought him out of the business, went solo. I got in some trouble, small trouble with my previous accountant. I even owe my previous accountant $800, and they did no work for me. They filed my taxes late for me. So I'm finally out of the tax debt. I had an employee at the time. I guess—

So at the end of the day, you really weren't making a lot of money. Because all the bills weren't paid unless you were spending it on cocaine or something. Where did the money go?

I'm gonna—

so honestly, I was really bad at saving, and I wish I did it better.

I'm not saving money. I mean, you got these little $800 bills that aren't paid, so you probably weren't actually making any profit, were you?

Honestly, it sounds dumb, but I was. I was making—

well, then where would you say the money went? Where would you say the money went?

Food every day.

Food.

$120,000 worth of food.

I wouldn't say it's all food, but like a lot of just really short, small spending that just leaked. I decided to get a German Shepherd last year. I just— you're going to kill me for this— I just traded in a 2023 Tesla Model 3 just last night for a truck because the Wisconsin winters, obviously an electric vehicle is not going to do.

Last night, like literally, like, like 12 hours ago?

Yes.

Oh my—

like quite literally last night.

Michael, Michael, you said you've been listening to the show.

I have been.

I know, I, I know.

I, I—

okay, what are you doing? Okay, Michael, Michael, Michael, what are you doing right now for a job? What are you doing?

I currently work for an automotive supplier. Um, I make a base salary of $45,000 a year. Um, after commission, give or take, it's about roughly $50,000.

Okay, and you just bought a $30,000 car?

Yes.

Okay, you need to call them back, honey, and tell them to cancel the transaction, that you're not going through with it, as soon as you get off the phone.

So, but my thing is, is I traded in my old car.

Are you going to argue with me about something that stupid? You're really not gonna argue with me about something that's stupid, are you? Please tell me that you want a better life than you have. You keep doing stupid stuff, you're gonna have a stupid life, honey. That thing last night was absolute freaking brain damage. You understand that?

Yeah.

I mean, dude, really, I love you, but good God, that was dumb.

So kind of—

can I say my point of view really quick on that?

Not really. You can just call them back and cancel the transaction, or you can have a good life. All right, Jordan is in Kansas City. Hey Jordan, how are you?

Hello, I'm good. How are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

Um, I was wondering if I should pay down my current student loan burden with single stocks that I hold.

You could pay down your what?

Uh, student loan debt.

Oh cool, how much student loan debt have you got?

Uh, just a little under $170,000.

Whoa. Are you a doctor or a lawyer?

Uh, veterinarian.

Oh, good. What do you make?

Currently I make about $78,000.

Wow. You must have just got out.

Yeah, I graduated a few years ago. Um, currently in internships. Um, that kind of begs the next question. I'm actually gone into a program to help me specialize, but, um, that program being a residency program, pays less actually than what I make now.

Yeah, you gotta— you don't need to be in a residency program. You're broke. You need to be making $130,000 as a veterinarian, not $70,000.

Right.

And to go on market for— are you fully licensed DVM now?

Yeah, fully licensed.

Okay, you need to be making $130,000, not $70,000, and you don't need to go into a residency for specialization. You're broke. You went in debt to become a DVM. Now go be one, dude, and go back and do the— go back and do your specialization in 5 years.

Yeah, okay. So even, even with the upside of making over $200,000 post, post residency.

Yeah, 5 years from now, I think that's a great idea, but you'll make a lot more than $200,000 as a DVM that owns his own practice too. So why don't you go be a DVM, clean up the debt, then open your own practice with some cash, and you'll make more than $200,000, and then you can decide if you actually want to specialize. Okay, you do know this is true, right? I mean, we work with DVMs all over America. There are some of the people we coach, right? I know what the numbers look like. I mean, the typical one makes between $130,000 and $150,000 as a salary working for someone else. And when you open your own practice and start running the actual business aspect of it, you generally are going to go $200,000 to a quarter of a million. I'm assuming some mix between small animal and large animal here. I'm not assuming just racehorses or something like that. We're doing just predominantly small animal, the racehorse industry, because people spend money on their pets in America.

George Campbell will employ you.

George Campbell will keep you, keep you. He'll pay off your debt single-handedly. Oh my God.

Jordan, yes. If you have single stocks, you can cash those in.

I would cash those in immediately and pay down your debt.

Yes.

And I would be working on getting your income up immediately.

And try to get this paid off in 2 to 3 years, right? If you're making that kind of money. So just live on nothing.

So here, Jordan, look around the DVM world, okay? It is being corporate. It's being taken over by corporate America. And if you want to be an employee of corporate America, go get your specialization. If you want to be self-employed and control your own destiny and own your business and own your own butt and not somebody else owns your butt, then you cannot specialize, use this stock to get this knocked down, get your income up as an employee right now, and then go with a 4-year plan, 5-year plan opening your own thing. If you want to add specialization to that on the side, but I would not have it as my long-term goal to be an employee with specialization as a DVM. And you're gonna end up working for corporate America and they're gonna piss on you. And so it's welcome to the medical field. And so I work with these guys all the time. This is the advice we give them. They can— you can own your— you can own a piece of your whole community when you own a DVM practice. The people that are loyal to you, they're more loyal to you than anything else when it's their dog or their cat.

They'll do anything for you. You're like part of their family, and that's a whole lot different than being an employee of corporate America.

Hey guys, George here. Listen, 99 times out of 100, when people say, I don't know where my money goes, it's not a math problem. It's a behavior problem. They're not budgeting. Then they're shocked when their bank account hits triple zeros. Well, here's the deal. Winning with money is about doing the boring stuff consistently, and that includes banking someplace that helps you stop guessing with your money. Like Fairwinds Credit Union. They're not going to fix your habits. That part's on you. But they do support people who are ready to take control of their money. At Fairwinds, you get a high-yield savings account with a great rate to help grow your emergency fund, a checking account that won't nickel and dime you, and up to 10 free savings accounts so you can organize your money on purpose. Because when you stay disciplined, your money gets predictable, manageable, and boring in the best way. So if you're ready for a bank that helps you be intentional, open your Smart Bundle today at fairwinds.org/ramsey and get the Ramsey Be Weird debit card to go along with with it. That's fairwinds.org/ramsey, insured by the NCUA.

Landon is with us in Memphis. Hi, Landon, how are you?

Hey Dave and Rachel, I appreciate y'all taking my call.

Sure. What's up?

Uh, so just the context behind this is, Dave, I had a call with you when I was 22 years old. Um, and you told me that if I did exactly what you said, that I would be a millionaire by the time I was 32. And we were able to accomplish that by the time we were 28. So I just want to let you know that, uh, you know, y'all, y'all mean the world to us and my children's children will be grateful for y'all one day. So I really appreciate it.

Proud of you, man. Excellent.

You should call the guy from the last segment, talk to him.

So with that being said, this is probably gonna sound so stupid, but I'm so nervous to make a dumb decision after what we've worked so hard for that I just had to get y'all's advice on it. So we're worth right at about $1.1 million, maybe, maybe a little bit less than that. And we have 15 acres of property that we want to build a house on. My house currently is paid for, and the issue is I just bought this house 2 years ago new, and then of course We have a guy moving next door with his mom that just got out of prison after 20 years for child crimes. And it really freaking sucks that I can't let my kids in the backyard to play because he will watch them through the fence pickets.

Um, not but once. Geez.

Yeah.

So it really, really sucks. And so with that, we just want to go ahead and build this house on this property. But the problem is, is one, there's basically 2 to 3 options. Number one, we can take out a construction loan to go ahead and start the build. Once it's done, sell our house and pay off the construction loan. But the problem with that is we feel like we're violating what we've been so committed to for this many years, but it's kind of heartbreaking to do it. Um, that's number one. Number two is we can sell our house now and go rent something, but I really hate to make my wife move twice, have two babies in the process, have to figure out the dog situation.

There's a creep living next door though, Landon. Don't you guys want out?

I I agree. I agree.

I want to go rent to get away from the creepo because otherwise I'm going to end up in jail for murdering him.

Okay.

Yeah, I agree. I agree. So you would, you would just go ahead and sell it, rent, move twice, deal with the dog situation, the whole deal.

The benefit of getting away from the creepo is it also frees up the money to do the build.

But I agree. I do agree. Yeah, I would, I would, I would love nothing more than to not do a construction loan on this stupid thing.

Yeah. And you guys will be somewhere 9 to 12 months. Months, and it won't be super fun. But you would look at— I mean, that just goes so fast time-wise, you know what I mean? Like, it's just, it's going to be for a quick time.

So, and here's the thing, here's the thing, you're a millionaire, way to go. You're 28 years old, way to go. What's your household income?

Uh, last year I made $250,000, but my income varies. I'm commission only.

And you don't have a stinking debt in the world.

Correct.

And the house will sell for how much?

I mean, I'm fully expecting to lose some money on it because I've got to pay an agent and pay—

How much?

Probably $470,000.

I'll probably lose $20,000 to $30,000.

Okay. And what is it going to take to do the build?

$500,000.

Okay. And you've got the other money?

I've got $200,000 in liquid cash right now, not counting retirement.

So here's what's going to be uncomfortable for you, but you're going to do it anyway if you follow my advice, and you did last time.

Okay.

So, yeah, I'll do it again. Rent something for one year that's ridiculously nice.

Yeah.

And that makes this adventure kind of fun.

Sure.

And it's so nice that you put up an extra deposit and they don't mind your dogs in the backyard and your kids are away from Creepazoid and your wife doesn't mind moving because she's moving up Go rent an $800,000 house.

Yeah, yeah.

And it— because it's not that much money out of the whole scope of your life, and it makes this move— it puts grease in the wheels to make this move happen properly. And so you can afford to do all of that. You make a good— you make— this is not a permanent decision, it's a temporary decision, and it's making a uncomfortable thing, a double move, fun.

Yeah, so you would do that even though you're taking on a monthly payment that you haven't had for years now? Yeah, you're taking away from the other things you're doing.

Yes, because you don't have a monthly payment on a construction interest, construction loan interest.

Sure, sure, sure. Okay, so there's no scenario in this where you're doing a construction loan after where we're at Well, I—

you could if you want to, but that would involve staying in the house, and I'm— yeah, you're— you weren't kidding. The guy's looking through the slats of the fence.

Um, I'm dead serious.

I'm not kidding.

I don't know how you didn't—

I don't know how you didn't respond to that.

Well, I'm sure he did. I'm sure.

I spent $8,000 in cameras and, and equipment, and then I'm gonna—

I'm gonna square out a warrant.

Well, the point is, the point is, you're just—

I gotta get— you gotta get away from this.

Yeah, the point is, you will have more peace from the financial aspect because you already were just like, oh, I don't— I don't want to do the construction loan. Again, you could, but you didn't feel good about that. And your current situation, you guys— I mean, if I was your wife and I had two little kids, yeah, I mean, like, that's miserable. Go rent a— I like when Dave likes to spend money. I like this because go rent like a—

well, you've lived like no one else, and so now you can live like in a farm or something, like something that you wouldn't normally do. He's got a nice pool and a big backyard with cows.

He's got 15 acres. Well, they're gonna move to a farm.

I know.

Move to a fun— I don't know. Just have fun for a year somewhere. I like that.

Yeah, pretend like you're doing it.

We had a friend do that. And she moved into like a historic-type home. And it was the coolest. But it was for a year, but it was beautiful. So fun. Yeah, I like that idea.

But you've got the money.

That's the difference. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, totally.

So, let's not confuse this with somebody that's broke.

No, no, no, no.

Who's calling me up and going, "I bought a Tesla last night." I know, that's usually people that call this show.

So, it's fun when people who are winning, you're like, "Go spend it.

Yes, enjoy your life." And you're not having to violate the go back in debt thing. And most importantly, though, I'm getting away from creepazoid, because I'm serious. I can't visualize going to work and leaving my wife and 2 little kids at home. Once this guy's got his eyeball—

no way.

Yeah, I'm really afraid I would lose my mind and end up in jail.

We know, you've said that twice on this call.

I know, I know, I know. But it's just, this is, this, these people, man.

Okay.

Yeah, I, I mess with little kids. I mean, you know, this is not, this is not, this is not a good thing. So yeah, Landon, I, I think this is why you have worked so hard. The payoff for all of your sacrifice is you got choices. And I'm suggesting you make this an easiest possible process with those choices because it is a temporary thing. It's not a 5-year plan, it's a 12-month plan. And quickly get your plans drawn, select your builder, lay out a budget, a schedule, and a blueprint, and manage to those 3 things and get that house out of the ground and get it done as quick as you possibly can.

Just don't let a budget creep out of what you guys have worked on.

Stay on schedule. And stay on blueprint. And don't— not 19 change orders. And stay on budget, stay on blueprint, stay on schedule, and you can get a house out of the ground. You won't— and you'll be your builder's favorite customer ever, because most people can't stay on budget, stay on schedule, and stay on blueprint. So if you'll do that, you can get the house out of the ground in 12 months. You'll be fine. You'll be on the farm, dun dun dun dun dun dun, and life is good. You got some distance between you and the neighbors, which is always a good thing. Wow. The world we live in.

Well, and I just love what he said, though, calling it 23 and said— or he was 22.

22. I told him by 32 he'd be a millionaire.

Yeah.

If you did these things.

Yes. Yes. So, it does.

Proud of it.

Proves out. Well done, Landon.

You do. You follow this stuff, it works. I mean, I didn't invent any of it. I stole it all from God and your grandmother. Common sense is so rare in America, though, that it's like having a superpower. And so, yeah, so we have a wildly popular show that 30 million people tune into every week. Who knew? But that's it. That's why, because this stuff works. And you are the hero, Landon. You did this. I appreciate you giving us credit, but you're the guy that did all the hard work for the last decade, or 6 years in your case. It didn't take you a whole decade. Wow. From 22 to 28, he becomes a millionaire. And I just love Gen Z. Gen Z has got so much potential. There's so many things they can do. There's so much, so many things at their fingertips, and they're so smart on how they use them when they're smart. But there's no middle ground. The dumbest person on the planet is a dumb Gen Z.

Okay.

The smartest person on the planet is a smart Gen Z. Oh my God, they're wonderful, and they're simultaneously aggravating.

If you're looking for a more budget-friendly way to save on medical costs and stay true to your values, Christian Healthcare Ministries is a great option to think about. CHM is not health insurance. It's a health cost-sharing ministry, a biblical community-based way for Christians to share each other's medical bills. That means no enrollment deadlines, and you can choose any doctor or hospital you want. That kind of freedom is big, especially if you're self-employed, between jobs, or you just need something that fits your budget better. CHM has been around for decades, faithfully serving the Christian community, and many members save hundreds of dollars a month compared to traditional health insurance. And that margin gives you breathing room when you're working the Baby Steps and trying to steward your money well. And right now, CHM's offering new members a 50% credit towards their first month of membership. Get started at chministries.org/budget and use promo code RAMSEY. That's chministries.org/budget Budget and promo code Ramsey.

Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. Rachel Cruz, Ramsey personality, number one bestselling author, and my daughter as my co-host today. Another Rachel is on the line. This one's in Indianapolis. Hi, Rachel. How are you?

I'm great. How are you guys?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

So it's awesome to speak with you. Thank you for taking my call.

Sure.

The reason why I'm calling is my husband and I are in Baby Step 2. We've made really good progress and paid off $78,942 worth of debt in October 2024. That's consisted of medical, car, and student loan. My question is, is there ever a time in Baby Step 2 that it would be appropriate to cash flow, like a life event or a once-in-a-lifetime experience?

What would that be?

So, it would be to go see several good childhood friends of mine in Las Vegas named Kevin, Nick, Howie, AJ, and Brian. At the, at the, uh, Sphere in August.

The Backstreet Boys. Yeah, their childhood friends.

Shoot, I'm so glad you called on this day, Rachel. There's any hope.

You know Rachel's been twice.

Um, I think so, yes.

Yeah, and it's so good.

Oh my gosh.

And, and here's the thing, my— I'm like watching the videos and my husband yells from the other room Dave says no.

Oh, I'm just going to see if Rachel's a hypocrite. That's all I'm going to say. Because if your husband calls and wants to buy a Mastercraft, I've got the same problem.

Okay, a Mastercraft and Backstreet Boy tickets are very different price point-wise. All right, let's just, let's just, let's, let's just continue, um, being curious. Rachel, how much debt do y'all have left? Um, so we have—

I have it right here.

We have just about $96,000, and I will admit that's student loans. I'm in healthcare and my husband is a teacher.

And your household income is what?

I have an NDA with work, but we are able to put about $3,500 a month towards debt because I have a side hustle as adjunct faculty.

Oh, nice.

Okay.

I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Your household income? Oh, you can't, you can't say because you have an NDA. Is that what you mean?

What do you mean?

Yeah, I have a non-disclosure agreement. I work with the government, so.

Oh, okay. Well, nobody knows who you are, but okay. Anyway, um, protect yourself. Um, they probably actually do know who you are, but anyway.

Oh man.

So we're able to put like $3,500 a month towards debt, and we're at, um, probably about 25 months away from having that all cleared.

Yeah, I went to the Eagles at the Sphere, which would be my version of Backstreet Boys, because the chance of me seeing the Backstreet Boys is close to zero. But the Eagles at the Sphere was one of the best concert experiences of my life. So I'm— I can get— I can get there with you and Rachel on how difficult this is. We're kind of making fun of it a little bit, but it's also— it's also a very real possibility. It's a real— it's a real cool experience, and, and it's worth every penny penny, if you had the pennies. You don't. You're broke. You're $90,000 in debt.

Yes.

So, I'm gonna mute my mic.

I just can't. I can't even.

She can't tell you no. She's gonna make me do it.

I'm kidding.

She can't do it. It would be inconsistent with what we teach.

I know. I know.

That's the bottom line. As much as we understand and grasp, and we also know you're not gonna go bankrupt if you do it, and you're probably gonna be okay if you do it, But it's inconsistent with what we teach because that loss of focus and that loss of, I give myself permission to take a minute off instead of staying on this. The way you got the $78,000 paid off in that short period of time was focused intensity without any distractions. You put the blinders on and said nothing is important, as important as getting this debt clean. And that level of focus created behavior change in your household, created sacrifice in your household, and got you the progress. And that's how we've taught and been able to coach people to be successful all these years in this, to not get distracted with every shiny thing. And this one's particularly funny and fun because Rachel has actually done it twice.

It heals your inner child, I'm telling you.

It is like the best.

Oh, God!

Oh, Jesus is not up there. It's the Backstreet Boys.

For all of us millennials, it's the Backstreet Boys. It takes you back to like 7th grade.

So, Rachel, I'm sorry. Well, so does the Eagles, but my inner child didn't need it. But my inner child died a long time ago.

I'm kidding.

He's in there, Dave. He grew up.

No, he's in there.

He's in there. He's way down in there. But yeah, this is so funny, Rachel. I'm sorry. I have to tell you the truth. And the truth is everything we teach says don't do it.

Absolutely. Well, no, I really do appreciate it. And we listen to like the podcasts and stuff. When I'm like on my way to teach on the weekend. So thank you.

You're fine.

You're working so hard.

And you're doing a great job. And here's the thing, if you live like no one else, I promise you later there's going to be better things than this would have been.

And I have on my prayer list that Britney Spears heals up as a human and she goes on tour and that NSYNC, that Justin Timberlake goes to NSYNC.

Just for your generation.

We will get millennial concerts in the future, Rachel. I really do believe it. I'm praying for it.

Well, when they want money, they will, because all the ones from Old, and they're all on stage jumping around still. So, because there's really good money in it right now.

There is. Well, and they keep releasing more dates.

Yeah, like, I mean, Don Henley just keeps going like the EverReady Bunny. So, but anyway, Eagles. Yeah, yeah. It's, yeah, it's understandable. It makes for a fun thing because you actually, you know, you almost got Rachel on your side. But yeah, we also have to step aside from all the giggling and the fun about it and say, while it is an incredible experience, I would not suggest it to someone in your situation. If you do it, we'll still be friends, but I would not suggest it.

That's a good point, Rachel. We would still be friends if you did it. There you go. That's a nice way of saying it. Just, you know, won't be mad at you. Just like we say, debt's not a sin. It's not a salvation issue. It's just not wise.

This is not a biblical concept.

Stay focused, Rachel. Stay focused.

The power of focus is It's hard to grasp in a culture that does not know how to focus, in a culture where people check their phones 2,500 times a day.

And it's hard with— and this is a lot of people's journeys, but you know, they paid off $78,000.

Yeah, they made good progress.

In 2, you know, year and a half.

They still have $90,000 to go.

And they still have $96,000 left. Like, that's a long journey. So, you guys, you're in the marathon. You've got it, Rachel.

And I kind of think in talking to her that she was pretty mature about the consideration. No, she knows.

I think she knows.

I know. Yeah, she was kind of With it. It wasn't like a little spoiled brat.

No, no, no, no, no, no. She's smart. She knows what she's doing.

She's like a grown woman and stuff.

Oh, man. I just hate that you kind of lost the argument to the husband too, when he yells, "Dave says you can't do it." Dave says you can't do it.

Dave doesn't make the decisions at your house. He just gives you the guidance and then you make the decisions at your house. But yeah.

Oh, Rachel. So sorry. So sorry.

I was on when started 1,000 years ago. I was on CBS Early Show every other Tuesday, and they got this couple for me to coach. And on the show, they revealed to me, without telling me ahead of time, that they had just come back from vacation after I've been coaching them for 4 months to get out of debt.

Oh, geez.

I made the woman cry on the air when I finished with her. She was crying. You're like, "I can't believe it." They went to break with this woman crying. I just completely ripped her to shreds.

I don't believe you did. I don't believe that.

Listen, identity theft doesn't just happen just because you're careless. You can do everything right and still become a victim. Whether your information is skimmed online, stolen through a scam, or exposed in a data breach, which happens every day, then it becomes your problem, your time, your money, your paperwork galore. That's why I've told people for years to have identity theft protection, and the only plan I've ever recommended is from Zander Insurance. Zander monitors for signs of fraud, even home title fraud, and they send alerts when something looks off. Most important, if something happens, you're not stuck spending hours on hold, filing forms, and arguing with companies trying to fix it. Zander's dedicated restoration team steps in and does the hard work to help restore your identity. You can even protect your kids for free on their family plan. Go to Zander.com or call 800-356-4282 to protect yourself today. Identity theft is everywhere. Zander is how you fight back. Zander.com. One of the best things to do for your finances is to have a really good tax pro in your corner that you can trust. They'll advise you on the best moves to make for your situation, your small business, if you've had some big life changes in the past year.

You bought a house, got married, had kids, got a divorce, whatever. RamseySolutions.com/taxpro will hook you up with one of the CPAs or enrolled agents that are Ramsey Ramsey Solutions.com/taxpro to find tax people that are Ramsey trusted to help you. Jennifer's in Boston. Hi, Jennifer. How are you?

Hey, I'm good. This is so nerve-wracking. I don't know how you guys do this every day.

We've gotten used to it. How can we help?

Okay. Okay. So me and my husband, we had $146,000 of student debt. Debt. We've gotten it down to $65,000, so we've been kind of crushing it. Um, but we do have like an inheritance, um, from my father's estate. Um, we kind of went down a rabbit hole and we found out that each kid is probably going to get around $70,000 to $90,000. Um, the house sold a few years ago, but my uncle is the executor and he's just gone completely ghost. Like nothing in like a year and a half.

I'm sorry, what do you mean ghost?

You—

he's not returning calls or you can't find him or what?

Nothing. No, like text, emails, calls.

Did you go to his house?

Zero. Well, we live in like different states. He's all the way across the country.

Well, for $70,000, I'm gonna go to his house.

Yeah, I was talking to my husband about that. I'm like, is this like something we get like, I don't know, the authorities involved? Because it kind of like kills me that our debt could be gone tomorrow if I had like the estate.

Like, so you've called, you've called his phone how many times?

Oh gosh, um, a handful. Not like a ton of time because I'm like, oh, okay, he has a life, like he has kids. But I'm starting to just get a little a little peeve.

How many times have you called him? Like 3 times? Over how long?

Uh, I mean, since we've been getting serious about the debts, probably a year, uh, because we— my husband was in PA school and then I was in college. We weren't really thinking about the estate at all, and now we're paying down the debt. I'm like, oh my God, how long ago did your father die? On the table, in 2015.

Okay, do you have a relationship of any kind with your uncle prior to this, good or bad?

I just— after my dad passed, that side of the family just— we kind of just dissipated.

So if you never spoke to him again but you got your $70,000, your life wouldn't change much, right? So jack him up.

Yeah, like call him a ton.

Yeah, and go, hey, I want my stinking money. 2015, that's 11 years to settle an estate. Yeah, I'm getting ready to call the cops. I'm calling the cops if you stole my money.

You think he stole it?

He might have stolen it. It's been 11 years.

Oh no.

Well, here's some tea. I just have a little bit of a feeling, um, that he's holding it because he thinks we're like too young to manage it.

I've got a little bit of a feeling that I'm about to jack him up.

Yeah, yeah.

See, 11 years.

When did the house sell though?

Just—

am I more pissed than you?

I know.

Yeah, and I think that's the problem. I think I need a little kick in the butt. So I'm like, I'm just gonna call and just say—

when did the house— yeah, when did the house sell, Jennifer? How long ago?

A few years ago.

Okay, this stuff should be wrapped up in 6 months. Okay, so he's 10 and a half years too late.

Yes, call him and call him and call him twice a day.

Okay, we're really wanting to move in August, and I'm like, we're not moving unless we're out Yeah, so I'm like, you need to—

that's irrelevant to this discussion, okay? Whether you move or not depends on if you're out of debt, and that depends on if you get out of debt with your money or you get some of this money that's due you. You may never see this money, but you need closure on this ridiculous estate situation.

It's ridiculous.

How many siblings do you have?

I have 3.

And what are they saying?

Well, a little bit of strange at the moment, not gonna lie. Okay, I'm having a little bit of a family—

okay, all right, so I'm gonna I'm gonna let Uncle know that he's got 10 days to send me the— to close out the estate and send me my money. And if he doesn't do that, I'm gonna hire an attorney, and I'm getting ready to jack his world up. I'm gonna reach down his throat and pull him inside out.

Oh my Lord, Dad!

No, really! 11 freaking years!

She's only called him 3 times in a year, so maybe we try the calling thing.

Yeah, call him and say, "I want my money." And then if he says, "Okay," then I'm gonna call again. If you want my money. And then I'm going to call again and I'm going to go, hey, it's been 20 minutes, where's my money? This is 11 years.

Definitely. Yes, Rachel's correct that I haven't put my foot like on the gas at all.

But now that we're like going crazy with the debt, I'm like, okay, they've taken you from like—

actually, taking you from 0 to 100, but you need to go there.

You need to go middle.

Yeah, well, you need to be prepared to go to 100 in the next 30 days.

30 seconds. I'll do it as soon as they get off.

You have to call him immediately. You can start nice. And then progressively over the next 30 days, you go from nice to I don't care if you ever talk to me again, but I still want my money.

Correct.

This has gone on too long.

Take it.

It's gone on too long. And I think he spent the money. I think you're screwed. That's what you're going to find out.

That's what I'm almost thinking. I don't think it's not even there.

Yeah.

It's not legal at all.

No, I said, isn't that illegal?

Sure.

Yeah.

So what happens then?

He's a fiduciary. It's a civil matter. It's not a theft. Oh, okay.

Because it was never in her name.

He's the executor of the estate. Estate, he did not function in his duties right, his fiduciary duties, so you could sue him. But suing broke people with no morals is usually a waste of time. So you're probably screwed because you sat on this for so long. But I'm gonna go ahead and get psychological, emotional closure on this and then decide what I'm gonna do with the guy that stole my money. Now, am I just gonna forgive and walk away and forget? Am I not going to get it because I didn't follow up, or am I going to lean on it, or has he got some assets and I'm going to tap him? I don't know. I mean, you got to decide what you're going to do then, but I think you're going to find there's no money. That's what I think. And you bear part of the responsibility for that by letting this go on this long, by not managing the situation well. It's unhealthy for an estate to be open 11 years. It's not normal. Okay, he didn't do his job as the executor of the estate. And if he's sitting on the money, I'll give you a 10% chance that's what it is.

90%, he spent that money. And he's got some whacked-out, weird family justification bullcrap in his mind for doing that. But he still stole your money. I'll bet you. We'll see. We'll see. You can call us back and tell us later.

Good luck.

Yeah. So, gang, when you are due— when you are the heir to an estate, you are not in charge of the estate. The executor executes, thus the word execute is in the word executor, executes the actual terms of the will. If the will states house to be sold, proceeds to be distributed to children, that has to happen in a reasonable period of time. 11 years is 10 years past reasonable. That's simple. Okay, that's an actual practical thing. And so as an heir, I, at the 1-year mark, and periodically after 6 months, I'm going to be getting reports from the executor as to what the progress is and when I expect to see the payout that my dad left in his will for me. And you're going to give me those reports as the executor, or I'm going to drag your butt before the judge and he's going to make you give a report. To the court because that is your fiduciary responsibility, your job, your trust job as the executor. You do not get to decide, oh, well, they're done with money, so I'm going to hold the money. That's not what the will said.

The will said sell the house and distribute the money to the dumb people. That's what it said. And you have to do what the will said, even if it's uncomfortable, even if you don't agree with it. That's what you take on when you take on the job of executor. Executor. And if you've ever been the executor of an estate, you will promise to never do it again because it's a royal pain in the butt. And most of the time, unless it's a huge estate, you don't get paid for this privilege.

You've worked too hard to get control of your money just to let strangers control your data. Think about it, just about every time you sign up for a newsletter, grab a coupon code, or start a free trial, your personal info like your name, email address, phone number, and more gets scooped up and sold by data brokers. Here's the deal, freedom isn't only being debt-free, it's also being free from companies cashing in on your data. And that's where DeleteMe comes in. DeleteMe's privacy experts find your personal info on these shady data broker sites, they get it deleted, and they keep it gone. It's like having a digital cleanup crew that scrubs your online life so you get way fewer of those spam calls, creepy texts, and scam emails that make you wonder how they even found you. Guys, the less noise in your digital life, the more time you have for what actually matters. Because when you protect your privacy, you protect your peace and your freedom. So go to joindeleteme.com/ramsey to get 20% off their annual plans and take back control. That's joindeleteme.com/ramsey.

In the lobby of Ramsey Solutions on the debt-free stage, Philip and Anita. And Ida are with us. Hey guys, how are you?

Hi.

Hey Dave, hey Rachel.

Welcome. Where do you guys live?

We're in Atlanta, Georgia.

Oh, fun. Well, welcome to Nashville.

Congratulations.

And how much debt have you paid off?

We paid off $88,100 and we cash flowed another $30,000 of Murphy expenses in the first 18 months of that.

Oh gosh.

Wow. How long did it take you to do the $88,000?

2 years and 10 months.

2 years and 10 months. Way to go. And your range of income during that time?

We started at $135,000. We finished at $145,000 with the highest year with side hustles at $191,000.

Wow. Way to go, guys. What kind of debt was the $88,000?

It was personal loans, credit cards. We had some IRS tax in there as well and a HVAC system. So very, very nice. Normal.

Wow, normal humans. Very cool. So what do y'all do for a living?

I'm a general manager for big box retail, and then side hustle was DoorDash.

Okay, nice. And you work outside the home, Anita?

Well, I'm a physical therapist, but when we moved to the USA, COVID started, so I, I stayed at home with my 3 children to help school them. That went on for a few years, and then we actually moved down to Atlanta in Georgia, and that was when I turned my hobbies, which is photography and dogs, into work, where I began my photography business and my dog boarding business.

Very good. Good for you. Good for you. So Australian?

We're from the UK.

The UK?

English.

Okay, I'm sorry. Yes, English. I'm sorry, I can't catch the accents. I just knew there was one. Okay, what part of the UK?

Where were Devon. I'm from Devon.

And yeah, I'm from Devon. Close enough. Southwest.

Yeah, down, down on the coast.

Gotcha. Wonderful.

Oh my gosh.

Well, congratulations, you guys. So how did you run into this Ramsey stuff 2 years and 10 months ago?

Well, I listened to the Total Money Makeover audiobook in 2015, but I of course knew better, so I didn't do anything about it. Didn't tell Anita anything about about it. And then fast forward to October in '22, I was doing some yard work, lifting some trees, and my body had another idea. So I had to have some surgery. I was out of action for 5 weeks, and it nearly broke us financially. So after a week of Netflix and getting bored, I started listening to your book again. This time I really heard you shouting and yelling at me, and after 8 times, uh, I was ready to kind of open up to Anita about what was happening financially.

Wow.

Oh wow. So Anita, you didn't really have the full picture in general?

No, we did— we really didn't, um, communicate very well with finances, and we communicated well otherwise, but I, I completely relied on him to manage the finances, and I didn't really know what was going on. And, um, he was under a huge amount of stress, and it was impacting our marriage, but I didn't what was causing the problem, why he was so stressed. But then he did open up to me once he started, you know, reading your books again and shared what his plans were. And I had, you know, I was surprised to find out how much debt we were in. I had no idea. But I was— I took it all very level-headed, surprisingly. I didn't get upset and And I just got totally on board with helping him. In fact, it really did help us communicate. And I feel like it saved our marriage, actually. So thank you. I mean, it has been an incredible journey, just the whole experience and following your plan, communicating better as a family and working together. So I'm really proud of him for getting on board and you guys for helping us do that.

01:08:44

Yeah, wow, well, way to go. I'm proud of you guys. Well done, very well done. So you had this event that put you flat on your back and you're kind of forced to consume some things and you say, okay, I'm gonna do it this time. This time I heard it, this time I'm tired of living like this. I'm gonna talk to Anita about it. We're gonna work together. We're gonna tear into this. What was the first big thing you did when you got in attack mode?

I went out and started DoorDashing.

Oh, you sold everything?

Oh yeah, we sold everything. That was number one. Yeah, the kids really did think that they were next. Yeah, yeah. And then it was DoorDashing. Um, about 6 months in, I actually lost my job, so I got laid off. Oh yeah, but, um, but it was okay. I phoned Anita from the car park after the meeting. I literally went out DoorDashing, and I was actually earning— we were earning $1,500 a a week DoorDashing. So that's what we did for a couple of months until I got the next position that I'm in now.

Wow, never stopped, just kept rolling.

Yeah, yeah, we just went straight out. We were doing 80 hours a week. Yeah, Anita was doing 80 hours a week.

Yeah, so then, then I started with my photography business, um, doing family photography, which actually didn't make most of the money. The money came from dog boarding. We do have dogs and we love animals, um, so that just seemed to come naturally to me.

I think you can make more being a daycare for dogs than for kids, right?

Well, these dogs stayed with us. They slept in our home. They were family-friendly dogs from local people.

Yeah.

And yeah, it really did take off huge. And I think, you know, the people that let their dogs stay with us really saw how much we love dogs. The kids loved it. At times we had, you know, in the teens, like 13 more dogs. Oh my God, Christmas time was hysterical. Yeah, yeah.

The kids joined in as well. The eldest actually lost room. So the boys had to cozy up, and we got a tenant for a couple of years as well. So we really went all in.

Oh my gosh.

So now that you're free, was all that worth it?

Oh my goodness, yes. I mean, if you're thinking about getting on board with the Ramsey, I would highly recommend it. I mean, it's changed our life completely, and you, you won't imagine what you're capable of, how, how hard you can push yourself knowing that the harder you push, the faster you can achieve your goals.

Amen. That's it right there.

I feel like our children have just learned so much from this experience.

That's what I was gonna ask is some people are cautious when they have kids in the home to sacrifice lifestyle to get out of debt and do this, 'cause they're like, "Oh, I don't want my kids to feel like that, you know, that our life is changing for the worse." They see it as the worst, but what you just framed up is actually it's the best thing for them to see.

It's taught them resilience and to not, you know, to be grateful for everything that they have. It's just been— to see them grow as little humans has just been a blessing, to see how strong they've become because of this. And, you know, to go into the shops, they don't want everything they see. They know that, you know, we have to compromise, that, you know, they've done, they've done a great Yeah, now our eldest, he's 14.

He's, he's been inspired by it as well. So he's watched FPU. He's done that with us as a course, and he's now got his own business that he started last year, and, and he's doing really well with that, doing what you're doing, Dave, which is lawns and jet washing driveways. So he's really jumping on board.

Yeah, good for him.

Well, yeah, front row seat to watching mom and dad change their lives. You guys are heroes. So you've changed your whole family tree with your actions as well as with the arithmetic. So, absolutely amazing. I'm so proud of you.

Thank you.

Very well done.

Incredible.

Thank you, guys.

What a great inspiring couple. Amazing. Very, very cool. All right, let's bring the kiddos up and introduce them, their names and ages. Come on up, guys. What are their names and ages?

So, this is Bethany. Bethany's 8 years old.

Mm-hmm.

So beautiful.

Isaac.

Isaac is 10 years old. Mm-hmm. Is 14 years old.

All right, very cool. All right, it's Philip and Anita, Ewan— or say it again— Ewan, Isaac, and Bethany from Atlanta, Georgia. $88,000 paid off in 2 years and 10 months, making $135,000 to $145,000 and selling everything in sight. Count it down, let's hear a debt-free scream!

3, 2, 1, we're debt-free!

I love it, man. They are inspiring. That is so fun.

I mean, just scorched earth for 2 years, man.

They did it.

Did it.

And, you know, her— it's so beautifully said that, you know, the more you turn it up, the more you turn up the heat, the faster you get out going.

Yep.

Ramsey Show Question of the Day is brought to you by Yrefi. Defaulted private student loans don't fix themselves, but you can fix them. Yrefi helps you refinance in a, into a low fixed rate payment that fits your budget so you can get back on the Baby Steps and move forward. Go to yrefy.com/ramsey. That's the letter Y, R-E-F-Y, dot com slash Ramsey. Might not be in all states.

Today's question comes from Nicole in Arkansas. She said, I'm working two jobs to pay off debts, but it feels like my progress is slowing with the rising gas prices because of the war, increasing grocery costs, and higher interest rates. How can I maintain momentum in paying off my debt with all of this going on? Well, it's setting the lifestyle standard. I mean, there's some things that you can control, some things that you can't. And so to have gas in your car, you're gonna have to have, which means if it is a little bit more expensive, then you gotta change the price point of your budget to say it's there. So what do I have to make up for and other places that I can sacrifice and/or make more money. But it shouldn't be that significant of a—

Yeah, you're just wrong, Nicole. You're worrying about stuff that is not in existence. You've been watching the news. Okay? There's no higher interest rates. While you've been getting out of debt, nothing, no debt that you have, the interest rate has not gone up a penny on any of it.

Yeah, grocery store costs have been consistent. I mean, the gas thing is the thing.

Your gas might be costing you $10 more a month, this month, the Iraqi bombing has been going on for 3 weeks. Iran. Iran. Iranian bombing. Okay, 3 weeks, and gas has gone up 40 cents a gallon. It's $10. So you don't have a— you don't have a problem at $10, and you don't have higher interest rates, and your grocery costs have not gone up in the last 3 weeks. Weeks. So none of that is true. So you're creating a narrative, a drama in your head because you're tired, because you've been working all the time. It feels like my progress is slowing. No, it's not, unless you did something else to cause it to slow. Slowing because of the war? No, your progress is not slowing because of the war. Increasing grocery costs No, not substantially, not in the past 5 weeks. No big difference. And no, interest rates on your debt have not gone up a penny. Not a penny. So I don't know where— that's all stuff that somebody told you that you work with. It's a Debbie Downer, or you're watching the news, which is the same thing as Debbie Downer. So how you maintain momentum is you ignore Debbie Downer and you kick the butt of the debt by working like a crazy person, selling everything in sight, and eating beans and rice, rice and beans.

The cost of beans and rice has not gone up. And so, but what does happen, Nicole, honestly, that is valid, and I will defend you on this after taking you to task on the other, is you do get tired. It gets old.

Yeah, and if it's been a 2-year journey for her, she is feeling—

working your butt off gets old. It gets old. It's hard. Getting out of debt is hard. It's just not as hard as spending your entire life being average, being mediocre, constantly living from paycheck to paycheck for your whole freaking life, having to work an extra job because you never get out of debt, because you never pay a price to push it over the— push the rock over the hill. But I will sympathize with you, empathize with you, that you do get tired. And it is, it does get— I get sick and tired of this. And all I would encourage you to do is just take that and turn it into a righteous anger to push the pedal even harder to the floor to get out that much faster, like the debt-free screamer just said, like Anita just said on that debt-free scream. And use it as anger, and also as anger to never go back, and I'm not gonna ever be the person I used to I'm going to be transformed while I get out of debt as well. Because it actually, what ends up happening to these people, you guys listening that have never done it, these people that go through these extreme journeys to get out of debt, they are changed more than their finances are changed.

And they can never become the same person again because they're not the same person they used to be.

Yeah, 'cause the strength of doing something that you think is impossible, possible, right? Where they have 13 dogs living with them at Christmas and they're working extra. They're doing their DoorDashing, $1,000 a week. They're making $4,000 a week DoorDashing is what they said in the article. I mean, like, that feels impossible for people. I mean, it's just like, there's no way I could do that. And when you do something you don't think you can do, the resilience on the back end comes out and then you get to apply that to every area of your life. Like, it just, there's a level of strength there when you do what feels like the Yeah, you—

once you've stretched to a certain point, you can never retain— return to the same shape. It's not possible. And so yeah, that's how this goes. Wow. Wow. So we'll be praying for your strength, kiddo, but do not get distracted by mythology from your Debbie Downer friends or mythology from the news, because your gas tank is not that much more expensive expensive in the last 3 weeks, and if it is, it won't be for long. And your interest rates have not changed a thing unless you went and borrowed money in the last 3 weeks. You might have found a higher interest rate that way, but the interest rates on everything you had have not changed. Your credit card rates have not moved a penny, not moved up or down. They never move up or down. They always are screwing you. You know, your car is a fixed rate. If you have a car your medical bills are a fixed rate. They're not charging you an interest rate. They're just trying to get their money. You know, whatever it is, the interest rates are all the same. Nothing has changed in the, you know, because nothing in your life has changed.

That's my point. Now, there may be some things in the marketplace have moved a little bit here or there, but guys, you really can't sit and watch the news and be anything but negative. They exist for fear porn. They're born. Their whole job is to keep you upset so you keep watching and you stay in the Fox News or the CNN News loop. And your particular side of the aisle is stimulated by anger at the other side of the aisle. And that's all they do all day long. And we're on Fox all the time. We know those guys. We're not mad at them. Most of those guys are friends of ours. But what they do all day long, the people that write those scripts that they read in those teleprompters, You know, it's got to— you do not have higher interest rates. You just don't. It's that simple. Jane is in Fort Myers, Florida. Hi, Jane, how are you?

Oh, I'm fine, Dave. Thank you very much for taking my call.

Sure.

My question concerns cars. Cars and a mortgage. My husband's 79, I'm 69. We currently have a— we've done it all. We've gotten grandma's car, grandpa's car, you know, we've bought new cars. We've been married 48 years. Bought new cars, seen them to the end. You know, anytime we bought a new car, of course, had a payment, and once it was done, then we saw it to the end. So, currently, we got Grandma's 2003 Buick LeSabre, and then we have a 2006 Explorer that my husband drives, and then we're snowbirds, so here in Florida, we have a Sienna. Because we're snowbirds, I tend to go north more often than he does. I'm getting nervous, okay? It's like we got these old cars, you know, and he's pretty good. He's good. He knew stuff. He says that car will be fine.

Before I run out of time, ask your question, Jane.

Okay. Is it ever a good idea— I went and got a lease.

No, I didn't.

Yes, listen, I kind of got strong-armed, but it's a very nice car. But now I'm sure it is. I mean, I could be easily impressed because I got old cars.

So anyway, what do you want me to do about it? You got a lease.

Tell me, tell me.

It's a bad idea.

My plan is to give up the lease in, um, in September.

It's done.

Good.

Turn it in.

Good.

Okay, because we gave our son money for a, uh, some land, we still have a mortgage. So I'm thinking, okay, do the— well, put that money toward— drive the old cars, put the money toward the mortgage, and then in— I turned 70 this year, so I'll get—

I don't mind you getting a nicer car. It sounds like you've got the money. Just pay cash for it. That's simple.

Yeah. And if the two old cars are fine, then what you're saying, putting it toward the mortgage—

70 years old, you're driving across the country, you need a better car than an '06. Yeah, I'm fine with that, but pay cash for it and quit trying to trick the system. Sounds like you've been tricking it for a long time and it hasn't worked. Just write a check, buy yourself a car, and be careful what car you buy. And buy something that's very reasonable and that gets the job done where you feel safe. But don't lease stuff. No. Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. In the fair winds, credit you Studio. Rachel Cruz, Ramsey Personality, number one bestselling author. My daughter is my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225. James is in Indianapolis. Hi James, how are you?

Hello, hey, I'm doing fine. Thanks for taking my call, and hello to Rachel and to Mr. Ramsey. Well, thank you, sir. I appreciate all the information you've given throughout the years.

Thank you, sir.

I got a little problem and I just need you you to let me know the direction you would take with this.

You got it.

I've got— okay, I've got two sons. I'm 70. My wife is 70. She's in great health. I have cancer, but I'm in remission at this time, so I'm good. But, you know, time's going to be most likely shorter for me than her because her mom's in her 90s and her family has that longevity. But she's doing great. Great caregiver. Love that lady. But, but I I have two sons, one 42, one 38, and we're going to have about a $2 million inheritance for them. The 38— the 42-year-old is great. He's got his life under control, does things as he would expect people to do, you know, pays his bills, does this, that, and the other, saves his money. And then, uh, I've got my other son He's not very good with money, and he's got triplets. He's divorced 2 years now, and he's been living with us for 2 years, and that was to get him back on his feet. Plus, they were 2 when he got divorced, and a single dad, he gets the kids half time, so he's not in a position— you know, how do you take care of 2 girls if you're a single dad and you're working?

And he is working, and that's the, that's the plus side of it. However, He, he's went through the equity on the home they sold, which was about $60,000. I didn't know he had done that. And then we gave him about $30,000 from my mom's estate. Um, we were dividing it in thirds between my wife, myself, and my two boys, and he went through that. And I'm sure it's a gambling issue. I can't I can't verify that because he never said, but there's no physical evidence of spending $150,000, you know, so on, because he spent all his wages as well during that time, and he has about $4,000 in the bank after living with us for 2 years. The only thing he pays for is daycare, and it is expensive. It's $1,250 $250 a week for these 3 girls, and he pays for that. And we've set aside that $250. When he moves out, he will pay his rent. But at any rate, I just want to know the inheritance piece of it. What do we do?

Well, I don't think you're blessing him if you leave him a million dollars.

No, and I don't want to leave it all at once either.

Well, I mean, you're going to when you die. That's going to be— yeah, you know, he's not— he's not been blessed by anything else. And so money magnifies the good parts of our life and the bad parts of our life. And so far, money that he's gotten has magnified the bad parts.

Absolutely has.

Yeah. So why is he still living with you?

Because you only have $4,000 in the bank and he's got these triplets and he gets them half time and he can't put a roof over his head at this point.

Why? What's he make?

He makes $22 an hour, which next summer or this coming summer he may get to $25.

Yeah.

And then he has a chance of getting to $35, but that's going to be 2 or 3 years down the road. Now he won't— we've given him the get out, you know, get out when no longer than January of next year.

Hey, why does it say on my screen that he's under house arrest? What does that mean?

That was a DUI, and he has a bracelet on his ankle. So he goes to work, comes back here. I don't have to worry about him spending money because—

but we still don't know where all his money's going. He's spending money somewhere.

Well, he was spending it on online gambling, of course.

Yeah, but, uh, and then what would I do? You asked me early in the conversation, what would I do if I woke up in your shoes? My son's about the same age. Okay, what I would do is the conditions for you to continue to live here are that you start being responsible as a man, and that means you've got to stop spending everything you make on online gambling. So if you gamble one more time online, you have to leave our home, right? And so I'm not going to support you destroying your own life. I'm not going to buy you heroin when you're a heroin addict. I'm not going to give you shelter while you're misbehaving. I'm not blessing you, I'm enabling you when I do that. And I love you too much to participate, willingly or unwillingly, in your destruction.

And to make sure that that's not happening— because I mean, you can't really control that if he has his own money. Yeah, so I would be— I would ask for a shared account with him first.

Yeah, right.

I mean, there needs to be some—

I'm gonna have visibility into his internet access. Yeah, and treat him like he's an addict. Treat him like he was an addict because he's an addict. If he's unwilling to do that, then he needs to move out and figure out his own way. And that's— your wife doesn't want him to do that, but your wife is wrong. He needs to be kicked out. It's the best thing that'll happen to him because the path that he's on is a path of destruction. and it's not a loving act to assist in an act of destruction. It's called enabling. Enablers are nice people, they're sweet people, but they're not helpful people. They think they're helping, but they're not helping. And so when I do things like this, or when you do things like this, we're enablers. And so I would stop that. Then the second part of it is, as far as the estate goes, I would leave his portion into a trust that he has no access to until he proves to the trustee that he's cleaned up his life, and he's become responsible. Because I'm not leaving a million dollars to a gambling addict. DraftKings is gonna get it all, and I don't want to leave a million dollars to DraftKings.

It's not— I didn't work all my life to do that, and it's not a blessing to the person that's being victimized by DraftKings or whoever else, you know, whatever else. I mean, we're seeing the sports gambling, it's just an epidemic epidemic among men under 40 years old. And it's just destroying men left and right, and families left and right. It's evil. And everybody thinks it's cute to parlay. "I got your parlay." Be broke. That's what you're parlaying. So no, I'm not going to participate in that. And I'm disgusted with it. And I'm disgusted that he's been victimized by it. He's allowed himself to be victimized by it.

Real, not being able to support himself, then the girls end up with the mom full-time custody, I would assume.

Well, and you know, grandma and grandpa are standing there ready to help with the triplets, with the girls.

Yes.

I was gonna say, you know, if when you're keeping the kids, if you want to bring them over, I'll help you keep the kids on your days on, you know, because you got 2 little girls and that's what grandma's doing right now.

Yeah.

She's bringing— how does a single dad deal with 2 little girls? Grandma's helping. That's what's happening. So, just keep doing that. I'll help you and help you with the kids, but you can't live I'm not going to support you, and I'm not going to give you money, and I'm not going to give you money until you prove yourself to be— to where the money is going to be a blessing to you. It's not a punishment. It's, I don't want to cause your ruin. You're on a path towards ruining your life, and I don't want to add fuel to that fire.

Hey guys, Dave Ramsey here. Every day on this show, we help people work through real money problems and figure out what to do next. Now you can get that same kind of help anytime with Ask Ramsey. Ask your money question and get answers built on Ramsey principles we use on the show. Whether you're making a decision or just want something explained, Ask Ramsey is here to help. It's fast, simple, and free to use. Go to RamseySolutions.com and try Ask Ramsey today. That's RamseySolutions.com. Well, we wish we could get to every every call and every question here on the show. If you have a money question and you want an answer for your situation, but you couldn't get through, head on over to the website and use our tool, Ask Ramsey. Ask Ramsey is a free AI tool that's built and trained on proven principles. Like we dumped years and years and years of our calls from this show into it. All the books I've written into it, all the Financial Peace University lessons are into it, all the books Rachel wrote are into it. And based on that, it'll give you an answer. So AI, when it has a good data set, can give you really good, correct answers.

And obviously Ask Ramsey's going to give you a Ramsey answer. You'll get an answer the same way as if we did it right here on the show. Ask your question today at ramseysolutions.com or click the link in the description if you're listening on podcast or YouTube. Jackie is in Charlotte, North Carolina. Hi, Jackie, how are you?

Hi.

Hi, I'm good. How are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

Wow, I can't believe I'm speaking to you.

This is so cool.

Okay, so my question is a relational question, and I'm hoping to get a third-party objective viewpoint from you guys. So my dear fiancé has some very frugal tendencies that border on being cheap, and I'm wondering if this means we are incompatible or if it should cause me to reassess our relationship.

Oh man.

Okay, so give me a couple of examples of what you consider cheap.

Okay, borderline crazy.

Or borderline crazy.

Okay, so it can be something small, like if I call him to say like, hey, can you pick up some avocados on the way home? I can hear him like his brain is short-circuiting on the other end trying to think of like the cheapest grocery store to get avocados. So it could be something small like that. Um, or just bigger stuff like paying for dates and groceries. And, um, so yeah, you mean he wants you to pay for dates?

Yes. I, I should probably give you a little more context though.

Um, so he and I are engaged and we are living together. Please don't yell at me, Dave. Um, and we also have a 2-year-old son together. So we've kind of, we've gone through a lot in our relationship. Um, Early on, yes, he still pays for dates.

I want to give him a fair amount of credit.

Well, he's not a date anymore. He's a shack-up, so it's a completely different thing. So, I mean, he's the father. He's the baby daddy now. I mean, come on. So, yeah, I think it's too late to decide if you're gonna marry the guy. I think you've already decided. You set your entire life up as if you're married already.

Oh, I agree. I think that's probably like the root cause of some of our fights. I would say that early on, like, one of our disagreements was on living together. I wanted to wait until we were married until we lived together.

So why aren't you married?

Well, I wanted to be early on, but he wanted to take things slow.

To go.

Um, but at the same time, we had a baby, wanted to live together. I agree.

Um, it's not exactly slow.

That's kind of where I agree. He, um, taking things slow was basically like not marrying me, but he still wanted to live together. And this is, this is where like the frugal part comes up, because, um, I think our like framework for making decisions is very different. It seems like the only thing he can, um, make a decision around is saving money. So like, we, we had a big disagreement on living together. For me, I wanted to be married first and try to like do things back in the correct order, but for him it all revolved around saving money and like the practical side of it. And so like that kind of created a big conflict there.

Yeah, which that would feel like he is choosing quote-unquote financial security or whatever he wants over you, who's the mother of his child.

Yeah, yeah. And so we did actually live separately because I, I needed that. And so by the time he proposed, after that he then wanted to move in together, and I felt like we just got to an impasse in our relationship where it was like someone has to cave here. And so I did, and I allowed him to move But to be honest, I feel like that's like the root of our conflict. And so to your point, Dave, like, why aren't we married? I kind of agree with you, but I think like the way he went about it made me hesitant on moving forward with marriage because it felt like we were just—

Okay, so I guess there's 3 options, right? You get married.

Yep.

You don't get married and stay shacked up in this exact situation. Or you split up. Yeah, those are the three options.

And I feel like there's—

and so I don't know how not getting married and staying in this situation solves your concern of him being cheap. So if you are— so if you decide he's too cheap to marry, this is too dysfunctional for her to marry, then you're saying you're splitting up.

But I think it goes be— I think it goes beyond that for you, Jackie. I think it's— I don't think it's just that you think he's cheap. I think there's been other red flags in what he— well, just what he prioritizes. You don't feel chosen ever in this. He wanted to wait, but then he gets you still, even though he doesn't need the commitment. I mean, it's just— it feels like he's getting— he's choosing a lot of what he's wanting, uh, and, and it doesn't— and it's not you, at the end of the day, right? It's financial security. It's, "Well, I wanna be in a relationship, but I don't wanna commit to marriage." You know, it's all of that. So, I think a lot of— I would think some of that's brewing, even if it's subconscious, of like, "Am I gonna be chosen at all in this over his nitpickiness on finances?" So—

This is way beyond avocado.

Yeah, I think this is— I do. So, before you— I mean, before you walk down an aisle and commit yourself to him long-term, I mean, you kind of already have. You guys have a kid together, so he's gonna be part of your life forever. But before you guys get married, I would sit down with a great therapist, counselor, and really be working on something. 'Cause again, it's coming out like money, but always, there's a root of what's going on underneath, and getting to that point of what's causing some of this conflict in you is gonna be really important for you guys, which I pray is a wonderful flourishing marriage ahead of you, right? Like, I want you guys to win.

Can he grow past this? Yes. But basically, at the root of this is selfishness. This guy's selfish. It's what he gets and what he wants and what it's about him. And which means that he's not a great man right now. That now. Can he become a great man? Yeah, sure, but it's going to require some growth on his part, and it's probably going to require you doing something you've never done before, and that's drawing a line in the sand and demanding it.

Yeah.

And so you guys are going to sit down with a good counselor and begin doing some hard work, both of you. And he's going to have to start saying, oh, my job here is to take care of this wonderful woman named Jackie and this baby I made with her, and quit acting like a twerp over avocado That's my job. I have a new job. It's called manhood. It's serving. Not what you can get, what you can give. And by the way, the odd thing is that happiness is in there. You find happiness when you learn how to serve. Selfishness seldom leads to happiness. It doesn't lead to joy. Selfish people are seldom joyful people. They look like they were weaned on a pickle. And so, you know, that's the good news for him. He's got that as a possibility, a choice that he can make. Care. But if you— you know, one of the things we talk about at Ramsey in leadership, and we teach this to people in companies on leadership, you get what you tolerate. And in this relationship, you've been tolerating a lot, and so you're getting what you've tolerated. And so my encouragement lovingly to you is to help him by not tolerating him anymore.

At this level and saying, "We're gonna get some help because I feel like you're here for what you can get rather than what you can give, and I'm tired of being the only one here giving. And so we're gonna get some therapy, and we're gonna get some— get in a good church, and we're gonna get plugged in, and we're gonna move down the aisle in a proper way as a man and a woman, not a little boy and his needs."

When I talk to people on The Ramsey Show, 90% of the problems I hear come down to one thing: not having a plan.

Plan. They're not living on a budget. They have no idea where their money's going. Money is just happening to them instead of them happening to their money. And guys, that is so normal. But it doesn't have to be normal for you. And that's why I want you to go download our EveryDollar budget app. EveryDollar not only helps you tell your money where to go with a budget, it also builds a plan to free up extra money so you can pay debt off faster and start building wealth. And the best start. Your plan is completely personalized to your life. It's the same advice that you would get if you called the show, and it's right in your pocket. So, don't keep living normal. Go download the EveryDollar app, answer a few questions, and get your plan today.

In the lobby of Ramsey Solutions on the debt-free stage, Jeff and Krista are with us. Hey guys, how are you? Doing well. Welcome. Where do y'all live?

Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.

Well, welcome to Nashville. And how much debt have you two paid off?

$210,000.

Whoa! And how long did this take?

17 years.

Okay, that'll work.

I love it.

And your range of income during that time?

We started at $60,000 and we ended at $110,000.

Wow. What do y'all do for a living?

I'm a college professor at a small Christian university in Oklahoma.

And I am a minister at a, I like to say, a healthy church of 65.

Okay, I'll go with that. I like it. I like it.

What was the $210,000 $100,000.

Student loan, car debt, and the house.

You paid off your house!

Done!

Look at that weirdos! How does it feel to be weird?

It's pretty amazing. We paid it off on our anniversary this last year, so.

How long you been married?

28, 7?

What are we at?

We're at 7 and a half.

27 and a half. Maybe 28 if he figures this one out. We're working on 28.

We are, we're in year 28.

All right, way to go, you guys. So 10 years into the marriage, that's 17 years ago, you looked up and said, "We're normal, this sucks." How did you get introduced to this whole Ramsey thing?

Well, initially it was through a church. They were doing FPU and we kinda went through it, watched the videos. I was looking at your timeline over there, it was like the 6-month launch long one.

Yeah, whatever it was.

And we didn't do any of that stuff for, for a number of years. It sounded pretty good, but as you say, I'm probably the one that held it back. I'm more of this free spirit. She's the kind of nerd of the family. And, um, but we kind of got, um, into our marriage and realized that we probably hadn't been taught very well on these kind of things. And I think the big thing was we, we were moving for jobs and ministry, and we went to sell a house in about 2010, and the house that— 2008, 2009— was worth about $30,000 less than we, we had borrowed on it at that point. And all of the stress that came with that, that we decided, yeah, we needed to get out of all that anxiety.

Yeah. And for us, I think, um, you know, when you say 17 years, it doesn't sound impressive, but I think what's really cool is, um, all the things we cash flowed while we did that. So the Lord just asked us to do a whole lot of things, and I have a list.

Okay.

So, we've adopted 6 kids.

Whoa.

Oh my gosh.

4 of them are international adoptions.

That was cheap.

Yeah, right.

Exactly.

We have our 3 oldest kids have graduated college. Well, the one's going to graduate this year, debt-free.

Look out.

All 3 of them.

What a beautiful family.

The 4 younger ones are in private school, which we felt very strongly we needed to do for several reasons. All 6 of the oldest kids have had 401(k) matching cars.

Wow.

We've had several cars that we've purchased and sold through that time as well. We have a mission organization called Mission 1010 in Ethiopia that we were on the founding board for, and I go yearly for mission trips to Ethiopia.

That's where you did the adoptions?

Yes, it is.

Some of them are, and then some of them were domestically here.

Yeah, domestically here.

Foster care.

You adopted how many? 8 or 6?

6.

6.

Wow.

And, um, so we were trying to count up on our way here, number of health surgery incidents. I think we've had 10 surgeries in our family in the past 17 years.

Well, that's— yeah, that's logical.

Yeah. And, um, every single appliance in our house has been replaced at least once. Um, one summer we replaced both of our heat and air units. Um, so that was, um, $8,000 just right there.

And you're cash flowing all this, right? Right.

Yes.

And you're a professor of what? What do you do?

I'm a professor of mathematics.

Mathematics.

Yeah.

And in fact, I teach a unit in my— we call it contemporary mathematics— on financial math at the very end. And we talk about this and we talk about Murphy's Law and about all the things that can go wrong with purchasing a home before you're ready for it.

And I mentioned probability and statistics. Yeah.

Yeah.

And I mentioned about our AC units that one summer, and I mentioned about about, you know, the surgeries that show up that you're not expecting and all the things that can happen when you're just not ready to buy a house and how buying a house is really not a good idea.

So now you've gone through all of this and you're 100% debt-free.

Yes, sir.

How does that feel?

It's amazing.

It's amazing. I was over there and I think it was a John Delony book that says Building an Anxious Life.

A Non-Anxious Life, yeah.

A Non-Anxious Life. And when you know, raising adopted kids and foster kids, it's nice not to have the anxiety of finances.

Of something else.

When you're doing all of that.

That's enough.

That just kind of resonated with me, just the anxiety level just drops amazing when you don't have to worry about just car payments, much less home payments.

The first month that we didn't have a house payment, we got to the point where I would have normally checked to make sure that there was enough money at the right timing in the account, you know, and so forth.

Yeah.

And I thought, oh, I need to check that. And I thought, no, I don't.

I don't need to check that.

It's all in there.

Exciting.

Yeah.

Oh my gosh.

That is so fun.

Y'all are amazing people. I mean, not only to do this journey, but what you've done.

I mean, it's just— Yeah, you've given your lives away.

I mean, 100%. 100%.

That's amazing.

Incredible.

I think it's honestly what you do and what— I mean, it's just biblical. We talk about— you talk about all that all the time. As a minister, I just preach all the time. Time that the church needs to preach this stuff. Just the effectiveness of a debt-free church, I just can't imagine what it would be like. And the more that we get on board with that, I just can't imagine what God would do if we were still good stewards of our finances.

Yeah, yeah, it changes everything. And here you are with your house paid for and 6 adoptions. Oh my gosh, pretty incredible. That's a long journey and there's a lot of clawing, a lot of dirt under the fingernails to get that done. That's amazing.

It was one of those things like you want to go faster, but when you're trying to manage all the other things that the Lord's asking you to do at the same time, it just wasn't in the cards.

Yeah, you talk about the hustle sometimes. Sometimes it's just realizing you can live with a lot less than you think you can.

Yeah, so along the way, Jeff actually had been working in corporate America as well, in IT, and he took a significant pay cut to become a pastor. And I remember our oldest son saying after that had happened that he didn't feel like there was a pay cut. He didn't feel it. And I think that's pretty incredible, because he should have felt it. It was significant.

But you guys were living so below your means to work on this journey and for other things.

Yeah, exactly.

Y'all are amazing.

Well done, you guys. When someone asks what the key to getting out of debt is, house and everything, while living a life that it's this full, what do you tell them the key is?

Budgeting, I think. Making sure that you've got all the things taken care of.

Yeah, I would say diligence, and yeah, and I think one of the key things is find some fun.

Yeah.

Right?

It can't be all, and so there's less expensive ways. I mean, we still go on ski trips, we still go to the lake, we still do those kind kind of things. And, and, uh, so I think having fun in the middle of it is still necessary too.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well done, you guys. All right, bring the kiddos up and introduce them. Some of them are here anyway.

Yeah, so this is Jewel and she's 12. Um, Busay's 18. Um, Camberly is 17. Eli is 18. And Abigail is 21.

All right, very cool.

Oh, you'll have a bunch leaving the house Soon. The ages, yeah.

Getting close.

Yes.

That's, yeah, that's a different praise note.

Beautiful family.

Payroll's going down. Well, congratulations. We're proud of you guys. You're heroes. What you've chosen to do with your lives and give your lives away, and in the process still managed to set yourself free. Very, very well done. A lot of diligence.

Very heroic.

A lot of pushing. All right, Jeff and Krista and the gang. Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, $210,000 paid off, house and everything, 17 years, get this, making $60,000 to a high of $110,000. Count it down, let's hear a debt-free scream! 3, 2, 1, we're debt-free!

Yeah!

That's how it's done. Well, we sometimes hear from people negatively that the Ramsey stuff does not work. God's ways of handling money does not work for large families. And then occasionally we get a super large family standing on the debt-free stage with tears running down their face saying, "It does work. We're free, house and everything." Baby, perseverance. Love it.

Incredible. It's that time again, folks.

Tax season is here. I know some of you would rather bury your head in the sand until April 15th. 15th, then face your taxes. But here's a better idea. If your tax situation is complicated, get in touch with a Ramsey Trusted Tax Pro today. That way they can take the stress off your shoulders once those tax forms come in and teach you how to keep your tax bill as low as possible. But don't wait. Ramsey Trusted Pros can book up fast. Go to ramsesolutions.com/taxpros Pro to find one who serves your area with excellence. That's RamseySolutions.com/taxpro. Our Scripture of the Day, Proverbs 11:14. Where there is no guidance, a people fall, but in an abundance of counselors, there is safety. Brian Tracy said failure is a prerequisite for great success. If you want to succeed faster, double your rate of failure.

That's good.

Barry is with us in Columbus, Ohio. Hi Barry, how are you?

Well, and you? And, uh, uh, thank you, Mr. Ramsey and staff for taking my call.

Sure. What's up?

Well, uh, I'm wondering, I have a small account in state teachers retirement system. Uh, it's, it's very very small, maybe $20,000 or $25,000. And I've been since my almost full retirement now at 67, I've heard on the internet that you could use something called an IUL, which is tax-free. And I know STRS does pretty good with, you know, a percentage that they earn, but I've heard that there's two ways to set up an IUL. One is so that it pays a lot at your death. And the other one is so that you can earn interest without taxation. So I don't trust the internet, but I try because I don't know where they're coming from. Them, but I trust you because I, I know where your power comes from. So I call for advice.

Well, the IUL is an indexed universal life, and in your case it would be what's called a single premium, which means you pay $20,000 up front. They would take their commissions out of that and they would put the rest of it into what's called cash value. The cash value earnings are taxable unless you borrow against your cash value. That's the only way that you can actually get your money out is to borrow and pay interest. Borrow your money out and pay interest. But the earnings on an IUL are not tax-free. That's not true.

Is there any way— thank you for telling me that. Is there any way to roll that over into an IUL?

No, I would not use an IUL because the fees are so stinking high, and when you die you're money's gone. So instead, I would just use something if you want to lower your taxes on the $20,000 and you're not going to use the income off of the $20,000 today. Do you want it to create income today?

Yeah, I thought from what I heard, from what I heard on the internet, again, you never know. I thought that you could actually earn interest and that it was not taxed.

Well, you have to borrow the money and pay interest on your own money for it to be tax-free. Event not taxable because borrowed money is never taxable. But if you actually just took the earnings straight off of the indexed universal, then yes, that is a taxable event. So, but they couch it that way because it's a sales technique on it. It's a twisted version of an old product that was simply called whole life life insurance. That's all it is. It's a newer version of screwing So no, I would not put a dime in it. I would stay completely away from it. And what I have done instead is a taxable event, but if you want something that will grow without any taxes while it grows, you can use what's called a low turnover mutual fund, which means a mutual fund that they don't sell the stocks inside of it very often. And so as it grows in value, since they're— it's just like a single stock that goes up in value. You don't pay tax on it until you sell it. And so if you buy a share of stock and it's $50 a share, goes to $70 a share, you don't pay taxes on that gain until you sell it.

And the same is true in a low-turnover mutual fund. Now, if you take the money out of there in a monthly income, you're going to pay taxes on it. And I don't know of a tax-free thing except a tax-free muni bond, a municipal bond, which you could buy a muni bond fund if you wanted tax-free income, but go ahead and spoiler alert, it's about 2% rate of return. And so crummy rate of return. So I would rather make 10 or 12 and pay some taxes and net out 10 or 12, or net out 8 or 10, you know, out of tax, after tax. And so that's what I have chosen to do. I haven't strained to get to tax-free income. Now, I've got a lot of tax-deferred growth because I own real estate, and as it goes up in value, it doesn't get taxed. And I own these low-turnover mutual funds, and as it goes up, it doesn't get taxed until I cash out of it, and then it creates a taxable event called a capital gain. But no, I would stay away from universal indexed life And you're correct to be suspicious of anything on the internet because it's all twisted and turned and it's a barrel of fishhooks.

And that's one of the things that you see is people get taking out a whole life policy and living off that money because like life insurance should be while you're alive and you're living off that money.

The only way you're living off of it's borrowed is when you're borrowed. You're borrowing your own money. So you could take that same block of money and put it in a CD and have that bank loan you money, and that's not taxable because it's borrowed money. It's the exact same thing. So if you want to do something very similar but has less fees, just put your money in a CD and then use that as collateral and borrow against the CD. And of course, we're not going to tell you to do that either. That's dumb. But it's the exact same principle. And then when you die, they're going to repay the loan with the CD, and so there's nothing there. It's gone, poof, just like that. And the same thing is true with the universal, same thing. So, you know, but, you know, bar that, it's always been humorous to me that these guys in the cash value life insurance world, it's tax-free, it's— borrowed money is never taxable, doofus. Of course it's tax-free, you know. I mean, these guys, these TikTok guys, are just— they're cute because they're like an old— it's like a new version of an old scam Bailey is in Asheville, North Carolina.

Hi Bailey, how are you?

Good, how are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

So I had a question about— so I can just give you the rundown. So my wife and I own a business and we make custom hats for a living out of our own laundry room. I'm 23. I'm still in school. Um, I got, I got married in 2023. We had our first child in 2024 and now we have another son on the way.

Good for you. And how much you're making on the hat business, dude?

So we just started up in 2024. I'm at about $40,000 that is in my pocket this year so far in profit or in gross revenue. Revenues in profit.

That's after you bought the hats and paid for them, right?

Yes.

Good for you. And you did that in 3 months? You're making $10,000 a month on hats? No, I'm, I'm sorry, I meant, I meant to say last year.

This, this year we, uh—

Oh, so in 1 year you made $40,000 with your side hustle out of the laundry room?

Yes.

That's awesome, man. And you're how old? 24?

23.

And what, how do you make it your What kind of job?

So I was working for a guy that he was, he worked at a, or he owned a print shop and—

Do you have a day job?

Oh no, I do not have a day job.

Oh, so your only job is hats out of the laundry room?

Yes.

Good for you. Wow. Okay. How can I help before I run out of time?

So I actually have an opportunity to purchase another printing business that would allow me to expand my business. He's, he's in a brick-and-mortar, but that is separate from the business.

I would not do that. So you have a good thing going. Why are you dumbing it down and getting into a business that's dying? Your hat business is blowing up. Printing business is tough right now.

Well, so he's, he's kind of doing exactly what I'm doing, but he's doing screen printing. I'm doing hats.

Hats.

Yeah, but you don't have all the overhead, right?

I don't.

Why would you want overhead?

Well, the only, the only purpose is for the location that the, the building is in. It's a great—

why do you need a location? Your laundry room's working great, right?

For sure. I'm just, I'm kind of running out of room as well.

Well, go, go, go rent something for $300 somewhere.

Don't go purchase something big.

Do not go buy a building and buy a business because your hat business is working out of your laundry room. No, no, no, no, these things are not connected. They're not connected. You are doing a great job. Take what you're doing and do more of it. Don't take on somebody else's problems, okay? Because let me tell you, a hat business— you're doing all this on the internet. You're not— you're marketing. You're— you're— a brick-and-mortar location does not sell you hats. If it does, go Go to the person that's got the brick-and-mortar location and rent 100 square feet of their front window from them. But don't take on the whole business. And no, no, no, no, no, go do more hats, Bailey. Hats are working. That puts this hour of The Ramsey Show in the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.