Transcript of Don't Let Fear Drive Your Financial Decisions

Brought to you by the EveryDollar app. Start budgeting for free today. Normal is broken. Common sense is weird. So we're here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey Network and the Fairwinds Credit Union studio, this is the Ramsey Show. I'm Dave Ramsey. Jade Washaw, Ramsey personality, number one bestselling author, is my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Jason is in Spokane, Washington.

Hi Jason, how are you?

I'm doing well, how are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

So I'm 41 years old and I'm married and have a family and I have $0 for retirement and I am looking for some guidance on how I might approach resolving that.

Wow.

Okay, cool.

How much debt do you have, not counting your home?

$0.

Oh, great.

Well, that's good.

And how much do you have in savings?

A little north of $3,000.

Okay.

Okay, good start.

Good deal.

So we teach something here called the Baby Steps. Are you familiar with that?

I am.

Okay, great. So then you know that you're really a third of the way in, and you're really almost at the point where it's time to start investing. So just as a recap for those who don't know, Baby step 1 is you get $1,000 saved. It's a cushion between you and life. After that, you pay off all of your consumer debt, which is basically everything except the house. You've done that. And then after that, we save up 3 to 6 months of expenses. So you've got $3,000 saved. How much would you need to add to that in order to get it to about 3 to 6 months of basic expenses?

Well, believe it or not, that's actually right around 3 to 6 months of expenses for us.

$1,000 a month you live on?

I know, I know. We're actually in a kind of a unique situation. We do own a home, but it's paid off. And we also have a small— I mean, my wife and I have a small online retail business that kind of floats us. And so I'm actually personally right now—

I know, not if you had— not if you lost your job. That's not the point. The point is, what's it take to operate your household a month? It takes more than $1,000 to do that.

So right now we're at $800 a month, $800 a month.

That, that runs everything without any—

Yeah. But after you buy food, how much do you need?

Yes.

So we live completely off-grid. We, we own some acreage and I built a house. We have no utility bill. We have no water bill. We have no garbage bill. We basically just have to pay for, we have to pay for food. So you're like, we're on solar.

So what is your household income?

Uh, we vary between $1,000 and $2,000 a month from the business that we have.

So why are you so worried?

No, no, $1,000 and $2,000 a month is your income.

Well, that's just from the business.

No, honey, I asked your household income.

That's our household income.

Wow.

Well, so the only income you have is this business?

Well, what I was saying is that I'm actually, have been employed. I had a great job that I did for over a decade and I, with ended that job to pursue the dream of building this off-grid property with me and my family. And so I spent the last 18 months, and so I spent the last 18 months building this property while the business floated us. And now I am job searching. So I actually have several job offers.

Okay.

So what will you be making when you land the new job?

The jobs I'm looking at are between $60,000 and $80,000 a year.

Perfect.

Thank you. Okay, good. That gets us where I need to be now. So, and you're making about $24,000 or so on the business. So you're going to make $100,000, give or take, with the two combined. And you have zero bills because you are completely off the grid.

Wow.

Look at you. Okay. I'm going to raise the $3,000 up just because it's just weird. Okay. It's wonderful that you've done that, but I, you know, you ought to have $5,000 or $10,000 set aside and just liquid cash because the purpose is not just to cover monthly expenses. The measure is monthly expenses on how to build it. But if your car transmission goes out, or one of your solar panels fails, or whatever it is, whatever happens in your world, the pump in the well goes out, you know, you're going to end up needing more than $3,000. So let's set the target, as soon as you get employed, let's raise the $3,000 up to $7,000 to $10,000, somewhere in there. And that's still fairly low, way low on average, but for you, you know, it should be sufficient. Very interesting situation. Now, Having done all that, that gets you to what we call Baby Step 4. However, your house is paid off, so technically you're at Baby Step 7. Okay, so you should put 15% of your household income or more towards retirement when you get there. If you do that in good growth stock mutual funds, and we suggest, and Jade has done it, Jade and Sam, Dave and Sharon, This is how we do it.

We put across 4 types of mutual funds: growth, growth and income, aggressive growth, and international. And so if you start saving $15,000 a year in a couple of Roth IRAs in good mutual funds, and you do that or more between 41 and 71, you'll have several million dollars.

Oh, wow.

Like, not what I expected to hear.

Like 3 or 4, probably. Okay. And so you got plenty of time. And the good news is it's very easy for you guys to do because you're used to living in the land of contentment, in a culture that can't spell the word.

So you're very content people.

And one of the indicators of wealth, the ability to build wealth, is the ability to be content and not need every stinking thing that Instagram pops up, which is not you.

You're the other end of that spectrum.

I agree. And let's fill in those Baby Steps for anybody who is listening. So we left off on Baby Step 3. He saved up the around $10,000 that Dave suggests. Then Baby Step 4, 5, and 6 you do together. And he really already had them done. Baby Step 4 is like Dave said, investing 15% of your gross income. We would suggest doing that every month. Most people, not this particular individual, not Jason, but a lot of us have employer-sponsored accounts. We can throw that money right into a 401(k), 403(b), whatever have you, TSP, whatever. And then beyond that, you can do Baby Step 5, which is add to your kid's, child's, you know, your child's college fund. That can be a 529, an ESA. I don't even care if you put it in a brokerage, just put something aside for them. We don't give a designated amount. It's up to you, your budget, and what you think will look like the higher education for your child. And then beyond that, yeah, we're paying off the house intentionally. Again, not a specific amount, but this is something you're being intentional about. It's always a part of your budget.

Most people who pay off their house early, Dave, walking in our plan are doing that. And somewhere between the 7 to 10 year mark, is that about right?

Yep.

And then—

That's average.

And then from there, yeah, your Baby Step 7, this is where Jason was, living like no one else, giving like no one else. And I can't stress this enough, Dave, this is the time you live like no one else, you give like no one else. 3 things you do with your money, give, save it, and spend it.

Enjoy it.

Enjoy some of it, yeah. But so if you save $1,250 a month, which is $15,000 a year, and you never get a raise from 41 to 71, or from 41 to 67, you'll have $2.2 million. That would be on average stock market returns. That's where you would end up. And so I was right. I just put it in the calculator. There's a retirement calculator. Any of you can do this at RamseySolutions.com and jump on there and run the retirement calculator and figure out different scenarios. What would you have based on what you have now, how much time you have, what you think returns are gonna be? I put in 11%. The S&P has averaged 11.8% since it began, which is the Standard Poor's index on the stock market.

I think playing with an investment calculator is probably one of the most motivating. Yes, it's so motivating.

It's like that $1,250 car payment just cost you $2 million. Step on that.

Dave, we got a lot of calls on this show where life happens. One day someone's healthy, they're working, providing for their family, and then a curveball hits.

You know, we hear it all the time. A car accident, a cancer diagnosis, a heart attack, and suddenly Everything changes.

Yeah, and that's why you've always said that having term life insurance from Zander is essential, because it protects your family if the worst happens.

Yeah, that's right. You need 10 to 12 times your income in coverage.

No gimmicks, no whole life junk, just straightforward term life protection. But there's another piece that people often overlook, and that's long-term disability insurance.

Yeah, it's important to understand the difference between them. Life insurance steps in when you die. Disability insurance steps in while you're alive but can't work, so it replaces a large part of your income so the bills still get paid while you get back on your feet.

Now, if your employer gives you free disability insurance, great, take it.

If it's discounted there at a better price, take it.

But if not, Zander can help you find the right plan.

Whether you're single or married, it's not optional.

If you're going to be out of work for a while, then you need to make sure the money's still showing up.

And that's why Zander is our go-to. They make it super simple to get the right coverage at the best price. No pressure, no upselling.

I've trusted Jeff Zander and Zander Insurance for over 25 years, and so has my family.

So don't wait. It's fast, it's easy, and it could make all the difference. Go to zander.com or call 800-356-4282.

Protect yourself, protect your income, protect your family.

Sheri is in Richmond, Virginia. Hi, Sheri, how are you?

Hi, thank you.

Good, good.

How can we help?

Um, so my question is, uh, what to do with my flush fund. So I was speaking to my husband probably like 8 months ago, and I was like, hey, how do you feel? Because we have all these Ramsey envelopes, and we have a vacation fund, but it's used for something else. It's kind of like a vacation. But I was like, hey, what if—

I'm sorry, you don't use your vacation fund for vacations?

We do, but it's like sports trips and stuff for like for the kids. Okay, that's kind of—

so we declare travel sports to be vacations.

Okay, well, okay.

So I went to him and I was like, hey, he knew I always liked vacations and taking my kids on vacations, either to the beach once a year or planning a big trip every 2 years and saving for it.

Um, so I was like, what do you think about me making this flush Fun.

He's like, so just to do what you want with it?

And I was like, sure.

So 8 months later, I've got about $9,400 in there and all from working overtime. It's not from my salary. It doesn't take away from the family whatsoever. And I was like, hey, I want to take— I think this is more than enough for all 7 of us, but I think I can take us on a pretty good vacation. He's like, yeah, we don't need vacations. Okay. So I sat on it.

Why do we not need vacations?

Well, because he wants to create generational wealth, and that's giving the gift.

Yeah, but I thought we already had a budget that included saving for generational wealth.

Well, that's like retirement.

Well, that's generational wealth.

Are you doing the things— one of the indicators of being able to spend on extravagant vacations is that you're doing the other things that make you a financially responsible adult, right? So if you're already in— if you're already out of debt, right, you're already a person who budgets, you're already a person who's saving for the future through things like investing your 15%, by having that, that fully funded emergency fund. If you're doing those types of behaviors, you have, you know, life insurance, you're generous, all those things. Yes, you can turn around and take a 95% or $9,400 trip. But if you're not doing those things, you do need to go back and reassess. So why is it that your husband is saying no? Why do you think he's saying no to this?

He wants to put it back into kind of the— what we have going on with both of our salaries. He wants to include it. I'm like, no, it's not included, it's overtime. So it doesn't take away from anything. But then I sat on it for a couple of days and I'm like, You know what? I think I want to help my son out with college more.

Now, here's the problem. I'm going to point to the problem. The problem is you guys aren't aligned and you aren't using our money as our money. You're doing something over here. Then there's money over here that's allotted for something, but it's not really being used for that. Then there's money over here that he has a plan for. I think what will really help you guys is getting aligned and saying, first off, our money is our money and it's going in one big pool. It's in one checking account. And with this money, here are the things that we've decided are priorities, right? So if thing one is, to his point, yes, let's make sure we're putting the right amounts for retirement, which is wealth building, generational wealth, whatever you want to call it, right? That money is going there and that's been earmarked for that. Then after that, you guys can also say, look, there's money left. We've, we've covered our 15%. There's more money. What do we want to do with that? Do we want to take a vacation? Maybe the answer is yes, we put a little money there. Does that make sense?

Yeah, and we have all of that going on.

No, you don't.

Otherwise you wouldn't have called.

No, you don't. You have your own little world over here that you created with overtime, and then you're pissed because he wants to reach into it. You're not doing what she said. What she said is all the money goes in one pile. We decide together before the month begins where all the money is going to go. His, yours, ours, overtime, nobody. And if you have a slush fund, it's because there's a line item in in that budget that says, "We're setting aside a certain amount for Sherry's slush fund," which is perfectly fine to do. And by the way, it's perfectly fine to put $9,000 aside and go on a vacation in that budget, but not having this little side world over here that we have that's a fantasy world based on your overtime and then we get to just fight over what we do with that later. That fight should have occurred when that money was in the pile with all the other money and we say, "All right, are we putting enough aside for kids' college? Are we putting enough aside for—" retirement? Are we putting enough aside for a vacation? And you ought to be doing all 3 of those.

Right.

So I think the bigger issue was when I went back and said, okay, I've thought about it. I want to help my son with more with college because throughout the years I haven't made as much money and I've saved as much as I could, but it hasn't been a lot. And so he's like, yeah, let's put, what number do you have? So I gave him a number and I was like, well, it's not going to be enough. I want to put my overtime there to help my son so he's not coming out in so much debt.

Yeah, I don't want you to. I want you to quit treating your overhead, overtime separately. This is the third time we've said this. It's not a separate issue.

That's why I called. I wanted a different perspective.

It's part of the overall pile of money in the household, and if we, your income and his income, plus or minus overtime is not enough to fund the kid's college, we have a different issue. Mm-hmm.

You guys have a blended family? Yeah. Okay. So I think that's part of the— I think that's where the separation is coming in. You're thinking, this is my son from a previous time. I can put money on the side to deal with that issue. And I think you just have to view this again.

I want him to view that boy as his because he married you. Okay, like the two of you. When he married you, he took on the responsibility of loving you well, which includes loving him well. Right. And I want him to look at that regardless of what you have made or what you— what his income is versus your income. All one big pile of money to live our life. Our life is I have a son that was with me when we got married, and you said for better or for worse, and it includes him.

And, you know, we are doing this together. We are loving this kid well. We are going to send this kid to school.

We are going to save for retirement and have generational wealth. I agree with that. It's a great goal. We are going to go on a nice vacation.

I agree with that. It's a great goal. So all of the goals are fine. The process you're using is what's causing your disagreement because you're still trying to run around over here not making as much as him, but going ahead and pouring on the hours to take care of your son from a previous marriage because he isn't, or you don't feel like he should have to.

I disagree. I think he should have to. When he married you, he married that kid. And this is—

you better love them both, better love them all just alike, treat them all just alike. That's how the Brady Bunch operated.

That's why they stayed in their little squares. And so, you know, this is what we do.

So you guys have all the—

you're both saying correct things, and neither one of you are afraid of work, you know. So the correct things are, I want to build generational wealth, I want to provide college "for the young man.

I wanna go on a nice vacation." All of those things just need to become line items in the budget. Now, here's where the rub is going to come when you do that. You, Sherry, are the natural spender. Your husband is the natural tightwad, the saver. And for him, God sent you to him so he learns to have fun. God sent him to you so you retire with dignity and don't have to eat dog food. [Speaker:SHERRY] Oh, boy. Because you're gonna have some money saved because of this man. He won't let it be any other way. And you're there to make sure he has fun, 'cause this guy don't know how to lighten up.

He'd live in a cave, collect lint, and only come out on Triple Coupon Thursday. You know, lighten up, dude.

Let's go on a nice vacation. You guys make a lot of money. I can smell it. He does, and when they all combined, including this overtime, she made $9,000 in 10 months. Or 12 months, in overtime. That's great. None of you are afraid of hard work. You're good people. So let's just sit down and say, okay, these are things we're going to agree on. And in the overall picture, what number are we going to put on each one? And I want you to go on vacation and I want you to fund the boys' college and I want you to build generational wealth.

And you can do every bit of that when you lay it out and use the Baby Steps. So quit living separate lives off to the side, folks. It does not work. It does— all it does is create strife, anxiety, and we're still measuring against the past. We're still saying, "You know, I brought this child into this marriage." Yeah, but he was there.

It was not a secret.

It was part of the package.

And you're worth it.

You guys are worth it to go on vacation. So, yeah, so everybody does get to win. It's just a matter of how much and when and in what order.

Most people don't struggle with money because they can't do math. They struggle because they don't stick to a plan. And when your bank makes your money feel confusing or hard to track, plans fall apart fast. And that's why I love Fairwinds Credit Union and their mobile app. Because let's face it, most banks build systems that make it easy to swipe and hard to stay organized. But with the Fairwinds app, you open it and you know exactly what to do. No clicking through 11 menus just to move your own money. Just tap Tap, transfer, and done. You can deposit a check from your couch by taking a picture. You can get real-time alerts so you're not guessing what's in your account. And you can add your Ramsey Beware debit card to Apple Pay and tap to check out. See, a lot of banks leverage convenience to make it easier to go into debt, but Fairwinds offers convenience to help you stay in control. It's a huge difference. That's banking that actually supports the Baby Steps instead of working against them. So if you want to bank someplace that's both faster and wiser, check out Fairwinds. Go to fairwinds.org/ramsey. That's fairwinds.org/ramsey, insured by the NCUA.

One of the best things for you to do for your finances is to have a really good tax pro in your corner that you can trust.

Trust.

They'll help advise you on the best moves to make your situation or your small business, especially if you've had some big life changes this year, to make them the best, the least taxes. That's the whole goal here.

Pay as little tax as possible.

Go to RamseySolutions.com/taxpro to find CPAs and enrolled agents who have been vetted by the Ramsey team, and they are Ramsey trusted. Ray's in Nashville. Hi, Ray, how are you?

Hey Dave, thank you for taking my call.

And as a longtime listener, thank you for your valuable advice throughout the years. Well, thank you, sir. The reason I'm calling, about 40 years ago, I was a pilot in the Navy and I took out a $50,000 servicemen's group life insurance policy. Uh, it was about $50 a year, I believe. And back then, uh, $50,000 actually was a lot of money. Um, Throughout the years, I kept the policy. After the first Gulf War, I got hired by a major airline in 1991. And as the years went on, I continued with my Group Life. And then when I was in my 40s, I picked up a 30-year term policy for $500,000, which will hold me until I turn 74. In this, this last December, I turned 65, and by law I was forced to retire, uh, as an airline pilot. So I am now retired with a fixed income of my pension, Social Security. My wife took an early Social Security, uh, at 63, partly because she needed an insurance policy, like a medical insurance policy to gap her until she gets on Medicare. So the status that I have right now, I have no, um, uh, no liens.

I have no loans at all. My house is paid for. We're empty nesters. Uh, school has been, uh, all the colleges behind us. I have about $1.5 million in my 401(k) and IRA, and, uh, I have quite a bit of cash. And, uh, so my question is, after I turn 50, the, the group life policy, it seems like the premiums just go exponentially higher and higher, and I'm sure you're very familiar with this. And then 65 is another tier that it hits. My question is, when I was flying, I felt as though I wanted to have as much insurance as I possibly could. I was doing international flying. Things can take place overseas, and I wanted to make sure I was fully insured, that my wife would have a good nest egg in the event that something happened. So now that I'm not flying anymore, I'm questioning whether it makes sense to continue this group life policy. Um, it does not. Yeah, it does not seem to make sense at all.

And the reason is very simple. If you canceled both life insurance policies and you died tomorrow, your wife's got $1.5 million plus a pile of undisclosed number cash. I think she's okay, dude. Well, here's the thing.

Uh, she has longevity in her family and her mother is 97, and the way she lives and eats she's going to succeed me by 100%.

75% of the ladies outlive their husbands. That's not the point. The point is, how big is this pile of cash you mentioned?

Uh, it's, it's about a million cash.

Oh boy. So we have $2.5 million. Okay. If that were invested in a decent mutual fund, and let's just pretend for easy numbers, it produced 10% a year without touching the principal, the 10% would be $250,000. I think Mama's okay, honey.

Well, I'll tell you, she's gonna live to be 100.

She can't make it on $250K? Even if she, even if she went— Could she make it on $250,000 a year? I'm sure she could. It's my point. You're self-insured because you've done an extremely good job, Ray.

You know what, I've listened to your, your tutelage throughout the years, and we were debt-free as early as we could. And that's probably the best message that you should— that you send.

Well, thank you, sir. Appreciate that. But I just want to tell you, you're— what you've been, you know, all these years you've been living on less than you made. You got out of debt and you've invested, and now you're sitting on $2.5 million. You win the prize. You did it. You're a Baby Steps millionaire. You're incredible. Very well done, sir. And the point is, is that good financial planning that creates this kind of net worth with no debt makes you become self-insured. Okay, I'll give you another example that's not on your plate. Okay, I'm 65. Okay, Sharon and I have it all written out. We have hundreds of millions, in our case, of net worth. And we're not going to a nursing home. Something happens, I'm just gonna hire full-time staff and put them in my house.

I can afford it.

I can hire an MD and put them in the spare bedroom, right?

It's not a problem because I'm self-insured through this.

I'm not being arrogant, but the point is the money creates enough money to cause you to be able to live out your golden years the way you want to live them out, and you're in that situation without ever touching the nest egg.

Without being irresponsible or rash. What do you think that is, Dave?

I feel like there's many times where we will present a mathematical equation of how someone will prosper. We can say things like, "Hey, you'll have enough money to be able to do this, this, and that." And they're still like, the light doesn't go on of, "Yes, that's true." What is that? Where it's just, it's almost like, 'cause even in this case, I almost felt like he didn't believe us. And there's been many calls where we've painted out this elaborate picture of what someone's life can look like. And it's just like, it's almost like they don't believe us when we say things like, "Hey, folks are paying their houses off. Hey, if you do this, you'll have $1 million or you'll have $3 million." Well, it's not a good—

it's a grotesque metaphor, but it popped into my head. Okay? You've been fighting cancer for 5 years and they go in and do an operation, and the doctor comes in and goes, "We got it. You don't need radiation. You don't need chemo. We got it." And you go, "Yeah, but I'm fighting cancer." "No, we got it. You did it. You won." "Yeah, but I'm fighting—" "No, we got it." That's the conversation. It's just take— 'Cause you're in such— you're in warrior mode, and the battle's over. Lay the sword down. "You've been living like no one else.

Now, it's time to live and give like no one else." "And trust that the process works." "Put the sword down.

You won. Battle's over. There's no one left to kill. Everybody's gone." You know? But you're still out there just swinging because you're just in that mode. And it— "Yeah, but you're okay. But you're okay. Yeah, but you're okay. Yeah, but you're okay." And it's like when you run through the finish line, it takes a few steps to slow down. You don't just suddenly come to a stop. And I think that's the only psychology thing, the only way I can answer the psychology of it. He really wasn't arguing with us. His brain is just in save and invest mode and make sure everybody's okay mode. Everything he did was to take care of his family. When I was traveling overseas, internationally, I wanted to make sure I had life insurance. Everything was serving his family. It's a wonderful spirit. And he's like, I want to make sure. Yeah, but you're okay. Yeah, but I want to make sure. Yeah, but you're okay. And that's a wonderful place to be because that's the kind of person who gets there is they get this, the blinders on, and they're not listening to all the outside world and they're able to focus and get out of debt.

And they're able to focus and put money in that 401(k). I mean, that guy's a star.

Yeah, he is.

What's interesting was we took the call earlier from the 41-year-old. Yeah. And we told him he'd have $2.5 million. Ray's got $2.5 million. That's true. Yeah. And he's 65.

I mean, you know, they're reflections of each other. Yeah. Yeah. But proof text, right? Yeah, it really does work.

Yeah, this is what we're doing.

And well, what if, yeah, what if, I mean, what if you don't save any money? You know, that you're not going to have any money. Hello, there's a direct correlation between people that save money and people that have money. Who knew?

And so, Yeah, you know, I don't have anything in investments just because you don't invest. Hello? Yeah. Yes. But Ray, Ray's an investor, man. He's a stud.

He's done the whole $1 million cash. Yeah, that's a little— that's different.

Right there. You need to get that invested, right? Yes, you do. Yeah.

Wow. But it's— I'm so happy I was able to continue doing this show so long that now I'm seeing these people. Yeah. Who are asking me the question. I've got too much. What do I do now? Yes. That was not a question in the early days of this show I thought I would ever hear.

Right. They started with you and now they're finishing with you and you see the product of it.

Yeah, my car got repo'd, Dave. That's the only question I got in those days. If you run a business, you already know this. Bad information leads to bad decisions. And right now, AI is everywhere. But AI is only as good as the data behind it. The best AI is built on the best data. That's why I recommend NetSuite. NetSuite is the number one AI cloud ERP, and more than 43,000 businesses run on it, including us here at Ramsey Solutions. Their AI isn't bolted on, it's built in, and it connects everything that runs your business. Accounting, inventory, customer data, all in one place. Because when your numbers are connected, AI actually works like it's supposed to. NetSuite's AI helps flag cash flow problems, spot inventory issues, close your books faster, and cut down on manual reporting. If your revenue is at least 7 figures, go to netsuite.com/ramsey for a free product demo. Product tour. That's netsuite.com/ramsey. Sally is in Hartford, Connecticut.

Hi, Sally. How are you?

Hi, I'm good today. Thanks for taking my call. Sure. What's What's up? So my question is about, um, debt relief in a low-income situation.

Okay. What's your income?

Um, I get Social Security disability. I've been, I'm 64 and I have been getting Social Security disability for 2 years.

Um, which is how much? $2,700. Oh, $2,700 a month.

Okay. What's the nature of the disability?

A year, $27,000 a year. $27,000 per year. Okay.

So, right.

And that includes a, um, uh, small pension.

Okay.

So, and so you're making, uh, $2,500, $2,300 a month.

Okay. And, um, how much is your rent?

It's about $1,700 a year—

a month, rather. And I, I live in New England, so it's just the rent up here is crazy. Crazy.

I, I don't care. I don't know how that math works. $2,300 minus $1,700 equals Sally doesn't have food.

Right. So I have about $80,000 in, uh, between an IRA and an equity account. And I keep drawing off of that, you know, to make ends meet.

What's the nature of your disability?

Uh, it's been everything. Physical, A lot of physical stuff, heart problems, mental disability, depression. I mean, I'm being honest, you know.

So, uh, what, what keeps you in New England?

Uh, I have one adult daughter. Okay. Who lives In the New England area.

Okay.

You have other family anywhere in the country?

I'm sorry, do you have other family anywhere in the country? I do. I mean, my ex-husband is nearby and he's been very helpful, but my question is I have this, um, $9,000 credit card debt, which I mean, I pay faithfully, you know, is there any way, what kind of credit card, you know, relief is there? There's not any.

You borrowed money on a credit card and the only credit card relief there is is if, um, you file bankruptcy, which you're certainly not going to do on $9,000. Um, There's no magic pill that says you're disabled so they forgive the credit card debt. That doesn't— there's no such thing.

So, um, I also don't think that that's the biggest concern.

The core issue is you're draining down the savings. What are you going to do when the savings is gone?

Yeah, I am. And that's right. I'm trying to hang on to that.

How much are you pulling off of that?

As I can.

Yeah, but that doesn't matter. You make $2,300 and your rent is $1,700. Those numbers don't last.

How much are you pulling off that $80,000 every month, Sally?

Sally, how much are you taking out of your savings every month, Sally?

Well, a year I try to keep it like between $4,000 and $6,000 a year. But, uh, last year I had to have my transmission replaced And that was $8,000, you know, for that. Yeah.

And that was cheaper than buying another car. Okay. So here's what I want you to figure out, and this is not going to be easy. Okay. But there's 3 or 4 levers to pull and everyone, everything I'm going to tell you is going to be hard, but they're not going to be as hard as the plan you're on. Cause the plan you're on, you're going to run out of money and you're going to have a problem.

That's my fear. Yeah, I know. I know.

I'm not trying to scare you. I'm just saying the plan But the other plans aren't going to be without pain. Okay, so plan number— part— there's 3 or 4 things you need to do, somewhat of all of them. Okay, I want you to come up with some kind of a self-employed idea that you can do with the limitations that you have to create some income. That's thing number 1. Just write that down. I don't care what it is, and I don't— as long as it makes you smile and makes you $1,000 or more a month. Okay. The second thing is you've got to move. You cannot afford a $1,700 rent, period. And we need to create— the third thing is we're doing those two things so we create a monthly budget that is sustainable, meaning it will last. Okay? And so if you had $3,500 coming in because you had a little bit of side income, and if you had no payments, and if you had a rent that was half of what you have now, you can do that without touching your savings, and that is sustainable. That will last. But the numbers you're giving me won't last, and you know that.

That's why you called, and it's terrifying. I'm sorry you're there. I'm sorry you're there. But if you don't act on it, it's going to get more terrifying. And so we've got to do those 3 things. We have to create a sustainable situation that the income minus the rent minus living expenses doesn't need savings to be used. Then number 2, we're going to do that by getting affordable rent, and we're going to do that by getting— it may mean moving to another area of the country, I don't know, but $850 rent is available out there in America somewhere. Okay, it might not be in Hartford. I don't know Hartford that well. It's an expensive little town, and Connecticut is a highly taxed state, so it's very possible. I don't know. I don't know. But I want you to think in those terms. We have to get rent and income added to this equation. Better rent price, better income added to this equation, so we don't have to touch the savings. And then you're okay. You're gonna be fine. Then you can write a check out of the $80,000 and pay off the stupid credit card and cut it up.

And it goes away. That's number 4, is when you've created a sustainable situation. But today, I would tell you just pay off the credit card. But if you stay in this situation with this income and this rent, you're still gonna burn up your savings. The credit card's not your problem. Your problem is your income versus your life, the way your life is set up now. Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, I mean, $1,000 would change your world.

I don't blame you for being scared.

We're scared with you.

We want you to win. And what I'm telling you to do, to move to an $850, that's painful.

What I'm telling you to do, to come up with some kind of side hustle where you babysit dogs or you do whatever, you iron people's shirts, or I don't care what you do, whatever it is you're gonna do for $1,000 a month, okay?

It doesn't take a lot. That's not a lot, but neither one of those things are easy. They're painful things that I'm asking you to do for you. But, you know, you've got to— if you don't address this, it's gonna unravel on you.

Absolutely. Yeah, that money's gonna run out. Yeah, this is gonna be a major move out of the comfort zone.

Major. And, you know, I think the other thing is, I I sense that you don't have a large, strong community, group friends.

And so I want you to search out a good local church there in Hartford, and I want you to sit in the pastor's office and introduce yourself to them and tell them your story and ask them to help you plug in with some of the other ladies there in the church, not so they give you money, but so you get some people that hear your story and that you are seen and you feel good and you feel whole.

Connection, connectivity to community, especially when you're battling something that's having to do things that are uncomfortable, is necessary.

Well, and there's opportunity there. The more people you're around, people get to talking and somebody says this and it sparks an idea and you go, "Oh, I could go do that," right? Like all of my major opportunities—

Hey, would you come over to our house and live in our guest house and babysit our dogs? "And you do that for $600." But we didn't introduce ourselves trying to get something from them. But those things happen when you're in community. And people know your need and they know you and they know you're trustworthy. Yeah, your transmission goes out, "Oh, I know a guy who can fix that," or, you know, "My uncle." Instead of $8,000, it's $4,000. That's right. That's right. Yeah. So, I want you— that's number 4. I want you to search out a good local church and sit down, have a meeting with the pastor, again, not to ask ask for things except to connect me into community. I need more friends.

I need more connection, and connection is valuable.

If you're looking for a more budget-friendly way to save on medical costs and stay true to your values, Christian Healthcare Ministries is a great option to think about. CHM is not health insurance. It's a health cost-sharing ministry, a biblical community-based way for Christians to share each other's medical bills. That means no enrollment deadlines, and you can choose any doctor or hospital you want. That kind of freedom is big, especially if you're self-employed, between jobs, or you just need something that fits your budget better. CHM has been around for decades, faithfully serving the Christian community. And many members save hundreds of dollars a month compared to traditional health insurance. And that margin gives you breathing room when you're working the Baby Steps and trying to steward your money well. And right now, CHM's offering new members a 50% credit towards their first month of membership. Get started at chministries.org/budget and use promo code RAMSEY. That's chministries.org/budget and promo code RAMSEY.

Ramsey.

Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. I'm Dave Ramsey, Jade Washaw, Ramsey Personality, number one bestselling author, is my co-host today. Christine is in Cleveland, Ohio. Hi Christine, how are you? I'm well, how are you? Better than I deserve.

What's What's up?

Um, hey, so I wanted to get, um, your advice and perspective. Um, my boyfriend and I, we want to be married, and we're not running down the aisle tomorrow, but we're working towards it and having conversations. Good. And one of, one of the more in-depth conversations that we do still need to have is financial. But before, before we like even jump into that, like, I want to make sure that I'm coming at it from a really grounded mindset and perspective, like, within myself first. Um, so like, it makes absolute sense to me that like when you get married, you combine your finances together with your spouse. But I'm noticing in myself that I have this little nagging fear of don't become like fully financially dependent on your partner, because what happens if like everything goes wrong? Um, and like that fear gets even louder when I think about potential future scenarios where, like, if I decide I want to leave my career and stay home with the kids, like, that's something I'm open to. But at the same time, like, this fear gets a little bit louder. And so, like, I don't want that fear to be in the driver's seat for these really important conversations that, like, genuinely I'm excited to have.

Wow, you are, you are very wise in your approach to this. I love your wisdom.

I love that. I, I also think it's and it's valid. I think a lot of women feel that way, especially certain types of women who do like to go out. And maybe it's never been your mindset to be like, oh, I'm gonna be home and maybe I'll stay home with kids, but you like to go out and you like to be doing your thing out there. What I tend to do in those situations is I really go back to the facts of it because it really is somewhat of an emotional argument. 'Cause if you think about it, let's go back to what you said. Well, I'm afraid I'll lose my independence. What if, basically I stop working and he's the sole income earner, right?

Right. Yeah.

Is that the biggest— Yeah, that could be.

That could be a fear. Yeah.

So what, what you would be worried about is you're at home and what, he wants to get a divorce and you're out here and you've been, you've exited the workforce for however many years, right? So now you're struggling to get a job, right? Is that the— I like to play out the scenario to as much detail as I can. Is that right? Oh yeah, me too.

Yeah. Yeah. That, or like you hear about like financial abuse where people are like, well, all the cards are in his name and he's cutting me off.

Okay, so those are two different things.

No, they're— I think they're the same thing. Well, one of— in both cases, you have to have a voice. One—

yeah, that's a preventative medicine, right? And one of them is—

I have a hard time seeing the second scenario, which is any sort of abuse, because the fact that you guys are talking about this ahead of time, the fact that you're being proactive, the fact that you're not the type to shy away from being a part of it, I don't think you're gonna worry about that at all.

"Right?" You know, the first time something smelled funny, you would raise your hand. Yes. You're not gonna be 8 months later and going, "Well, it kind of felt bad." You're not that person. You're like, "Wait a minute, Bubba." That's you.

Yeah, definitely. And then number—

the first one, we're going in reverse now, is the idea that, "Okay, what if I exit the workforce? What if I'm out for 10 years, you know, and something goes wrong with the marriage? I'm left, you know, having to create this whole new world for myself, right?" So, that's when I would go in and I would really think about it. At it, I'd say, okay, well, what, what's the job that I'm leaving? Is there any way that I can continue to stay connected to that? Maybe you're in healthcare, you keep your certifications up. There are certain things that you can do to remain relevant, but there's also this idea that you can always, if you're a, if you're the same person, you're smart today, you'll be smart 10 years from now, right? You're resourceful today, you'll be resourceful 10 years from now. So the assumption that you will somehow go down in value over time, and you won't be able to get a job, and you won't— do you see what I'm saying?

And of course, you're well aware, you get half of everything.

Yeah. So if there's $1 million in his 401(k), half of it's yours. If there's a million-dollar paid-for house, half of it's yours. But the scary part is, you're not gonna be without, as long as you've had a say in and are aware of, and you're both voting together, and you both are emotional owners of all the decisions all the way through. So my wife Sharon's been a full-time mom since Denise was born 40 years ago. Talk about vulnerable. Except that she has an equal vote and has had emotionally, practically, and legally the entire time. I can promise you, if you interview her, she will not say she has ever one time felt vulnerable. Quite the opposite.

That's so beautiful. And so I guess, like, coming back to, like, when we're just starting to have these conversations, like, I mean, like, I, I would— what are, like, what are some, like, advice that you might give to, like, how do we start these conversations? Like, I have full faith and confidence in him.

I don't expect him —to like have a third partner. Agreed.

You wouldn't be dating him.

Oh, whoa. Right, right. Date bumps.

So like, I guess, how do we step through those kinds of conversations just to, you know, do the groundwork to make sure that we are on the same page and setting ourselves up right for we have this equal vote, you know, that sort of thing?

I think that you do exactly what you're doing, which is you lead with your heart and what you want for the future. So you start by saying things like, you know, I want our marriage to last forever, and I want us to have full transparency. I want to be able to be "Because completely vulnerable with you." And you start that way, 'cause who can argue with that?

00:50:13

Yeah, and I want both our votes to count. And because two is better than one, and, you know, all that. And then you say, and then you go, "Okay, let's talk through some of this." Because the number one cause of marriage problems and divorce is money fights and money problems. So, let's go ahead and figure out, if bears kill people in our neighborhood, it's the number one thing they die of, then we need to figure out how to keep the bears away.

So, you know, what are we gonna do?

What are we gonna do? Well, okay, let's look at debt. Let's look at savings. Let's look at the way you grew up, the way I grew up. Are you a natural saver or a natural spender? Are you a natural glass half full, glass half empty, abundance or scarcity? And you start to go through some of those things, and generally opposites attract. So celebrate the differences, and not one of you is wrong, one of you is right. But if you're the natural saver, my wife's the natural saver, we celebrate that at our house. I'm also the natural spender. We celebrate that at our house. She gets to do stuff because I'm there, you know, and so we celebrate that. And so, you know, Rachel and Winston, Rachel's the spender, and Winston is the saver at their house, and so on. So anyway, you just start working that through, and, you know, it's almost a part of pre-marriage counseling to go in depth on what do you believe about giving, saving, spending, fun, retirement wealth, insurance. What do you believe about these things? And let's talk about that and talk about the feelings that come around all of those things and then start to go, okay, I'm gonna have to come some your direction from my natural tendency.

You're gonna have to come some my direction from your natural tendency, and we're gonna find a really cool, strong point at the third point on the triangle from there that's better than either one of us were by ourselves, thus we're getting together.

So you're gonna be great. You ask a question so well, and you ask the right question.

Yeah, you're gonna be intentional. Your brain is gonna remain turned on. I'm not concerned about you.

Gonna send you a copy of Rachel's book, Know Yourself, Know Your Money. Both of you could read it. It'll help you with the discussion.

Getting married changes something in It sure did in me. When you say "I do," all of the sudden life isn't just about you anymore. It's about we. And one of the most grown-up things you can do for that we is to make a will at mamabearlegalforms.com. See, being a grown-up isn't just about jobs and rent and splitting up the chores. It's about having a plan so the person you love is protected. And a will isn't about dying, it's about deciding. It puts your wishes in writing so no one has to guess and judges don't have the final say. That's why I recommend Mama Bear Legal Forms. With Mama Bear, making your will is easy. It's completely online, no lawyers required. You can get it done in about 20 minutes. The price you see at the start is the price you pay with Mama Bear. So if you're serious about being an adult Do this today. Go to mamabearlegalforms.com, use the promo code Ramsey, and save 20% on your will. That's mamabearlegalforms.com, promo code Ramsey. Well, we love hearing people people's stories about how they're winning with money, and we got a great review on the EveryDollar budgeting app.

This app allows me to keep my budget and goals organized. I love the projection on when we will be debt-free and my estimated net worth. It gives you something to work towards, gives you a light at the end of the tunnel. Boom. It's exactly why we built this. Perfect. That's great to hear. Hey, really good things are happening over at EveryDollar. You live like no one else, later you can live and give like no one else, and you will learn to work not only a budget, But the whole Ramsey plan will be us holding your hand while you're using EveryDollar. Start EveryDollar for free today in the App Store or Google Play. Brian is in Los Angeles.

Hey, Brian, how are you? I'm good, Dave. How are you? Better than I deserve.

What's up?

Hey, so I was just calling for some advice because I'm kind of at a crossroads right now. I've kind of achieved my most immediate financial goals, and I kind of don't know what to do. Moving forward.

Okay, what do you mean?

Yes, so I got, um, about $350K liquid. I have 2 healthcare businesses that are grossing about $750,000 a year, and I have a wife and a kid, and I'm paying about $60,000 to $80,000 in taxes at the end of the year. I have about $300K in equity on my house with $900,000 left on the mortgage. I don't have any credit card debt or anything like that. The cars are paid off. I was just wondering, like, in my situation, you know, with this $350,000 sitting in a checking account, you know, Chase and the people who I'm banking with, they're kind of calling, wanting me to move the money around. But, you know, I've worked hard to save it up. I'm not sure really what to do with that. Yeah.

You're Jed Clampett. Mr. Drysdale's calling. That's funny. You don't even know what that is.

Look it up. Okay.

I'm only 30, so I don't know.

You'll have to look it up. It's the Beverly Hillbillies.

It's an old show. Okay. Anyway, the—

oh my God, I immediately become irrelevant.

No, I was with you. I was with you.

The— so way to go. So you're making your income off the $750 gross is somewhere around $250, right?

Yeah, it's about $15,000 to $20,000 a month. That's about after taxes, including health insurance.

I'm talking about your gross, your your taxable annual income from these businesses is around $250,000, isn't it?

Yeah, something like that. $250,000. About $20,000 a month. Yeah. Okay. That's after tax. I pull in about $20,000 a month with distribution. And see, I'm taking $7,000 a month in W-2 for myself, and then my wife is about $2,500 a month. In that W-2. So I don't even know if that is—

None of that matters with what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about what your real taxable income is. So we know it's $10,000 on W-2, and then you have profit on these businesses that you own. You know what profit is, and that profit is also taxable. And the total of all of that is $60,000, and in a 30% bracket, that means you're making around $250,000, maybe $300,000 a year.

$300,000 a year, okay? Somewhere in there. Yeah, my bracket is 37%.

Okay, then you should be— yeah, you're probably making $300,000 then. Okay, so that's good. Way to go. Congratulations. I do want you to get more on top of your numbers on your business. It scares me that you don't know what you make, but, and then you somehow bifurcated that under what you're doing on W-2. I don't have that problem here, and I make a lot more than that on this place. So I know exactly where my income's coming from and how much it is. So I want you to know that. That, then I want you to take a whole bunch of this $350,000 and pay down your mortgage. I want to get your house paid off fast as you can. Okay. And your, your, your, your, your instinct on not listening to a bank who was trolling you was very wise. The last thing you want to do is listen to Chase or JP Morgan for anything, or Fifth Third. You don't listen to them for anything. This is just where I deposit money and where I run my checking account and my debit card. That's the only place I use them for. Okay, I'm not using a bank for investment advice.

They don't have good investment advice. They give you banker advice. Yeah, they give you good banker advice. So you need to sit down with a good broker to do your long-term investing. But we teach people at your stage and way to go. You're doing extremely well, Brian. Obviously, you're a bright guy. I mean, idiots don't generally make $300K. And so, you know, you're doing really, really well.

What's the purpose of the $350K set aside in cash? How's it earmarked? It's just what I've been saving.

And I'm at the stage now where, you know, I ran everything to ChatGPT. It's what the kids are doing, you know. And everything came back that I need to interview some CPAs because I really don't know. No, you don't need to listen to ChatGPT either about investment advice.

But I do want to know, is that your personal money or is any of your business retained earnings part of that? Like, how is that— how is it differentiated?

So that $350,000 is in a mutual checking account that me and my wife have access to. Good. And then that's not including the money that is in my businesses that will hold it for 6 months. So if you include that, Good. But I don't include that as my money. That's good.

That's why you need retained earnings in the business. So what we would teach you to do is to get a good investment advisor that has the heart of a teacher and will sit down with you and your wife and teach you about some good ways to put some of this aside. You need to get some 401(k)s of some kind going and some Roth IRAs going of some kind. And there's several things you can do in your situation depending on how your companies are set up up. And then, and then you're gonna have an emergency fund of 3 to 6 months of expenses set aside. So some of this $350,000 will still be sitting there, and you could call it $50,000. You have a $900,000 mortgage, I think you said, so I'm gonna throw $300,000 at that. And then I'm gonna say, how fast can I pay off that $600,000 and have a paid-for house out of this wonderful income I have from this company? And you're living very frugally, so you're doing a great job. And so, you know, let's pay that house off in 3 or 4 more years. And I mean, in the meanwhile, start some investing for your retirement plans, and you're gonna become very, very wealthy.

You're not gonna become very wealthy just dumping $350,000 in a high-yield savings.

Let's talk about why though, because somebody listening is like, well, that sounds pretty good to have $350,000 just sitting in cash.

It's not bad.

It's better than not having it. Right.

But I mean, there's somebody listening going, well, why do I need to invest that? I'm afraid of investments. I'd rather just have it sitting in my account. It's not losing money, is it? And so that's the person that I want to speak to because I do think that it probably feels good to have money there. But you have to think about what that money is doing over time. And if it's not in a high-yield savings account and it's just in a regular savings account, then you're really earning nothing on it. Even if it's in a high-yield, maybe you're at 3.5%. But if you invest invest it, you can have a better rate of return over time. I think you said earlier 11.8% has been the average return.

Yeah, in the last 3 years, the average has been north of 20%. But that's not normal. But let's just say, for instance, you took the last 3 years, okay, 20% of $350,000, and you made 3 instead. So, but 20% would be $60,000 a year, right? Yes. $70,000 a year. Okay, and could have made $70,000 a year for the last 3 years. That's a And so that's another 2.10%, but instead we made 3.5%. Yeah, made 3% on it.

And so, I don't know, more than— it's like nothing. More than half. Yeah. In other words, you lost tens of thousands of dollars per year by not having it invested. And that's what financial people, like I was trained, call opportunity cost. You missed the opportunity to make an average of about $70,000 on that for the last 3 years. Not to mention, if you'd left it in there, you would have made 20% on the $70,000 and then 20% on the $140,000 on top of that. But we're not even talking about that. And that's not normal.

That's not every year.

But it's actual facts in the last 3 years. That's what it would have been. And so instead, you made 3%, which is like $9,000. $1,000 per year. Yeah, it's a big deal.

You know, that's the missed opportunity on your money because when your money's one place, it can't be another. It loses the opportunity to go to work.

Buying a home is one of the biggest financial decisions you'll ever make. But too many people base the decision on opinions or what the market is doing that week.

Churchill Mortgage has been our trusted partner for over 30 years because they do things the Ramsey way. A lot of people think buying a home starts with going to a bunch of open houses, but if you're buying a home the right way, you start with a budget and a trusted guide like Churchill before you even think about house shopping. Churchill will show you the real numbers, not what a bank will approve. Buying before being ready is how people end up house poor over and stressed out.

Churchill will tell you the truth, and they won't push you into more house than you need. And once you understand what you can actually afford, you can move forward with clarity and confidence.

So if you're ready to buy a home, choose the right guide and stick to a plan. Go to churchillmortgage.com and get started.

That's churchillmortgage.com.

This is a paid advertisement. NMLS ID 1591. NMLSConsumerAccess.org. Equal Housing Lender.

Nicole is in Tulsa.

Hi Nicole, how are you?

Hi, good, thank you. How are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

Thank you. Um, I, um, have listened to you guys since I was about 17. I'm almost 38 now, and you guys have just changed my life just tremendously. So I just am so, so grateful. My most basic question is, I am currently working on my doctorate program. I work full-time and I just have very little margin between my schedule and my budget. And I'm getting just burned out and just wanting to hear from the experts on what you would recommend just to keep staying the course and to, you know, just keep at it.

How much time do you have left in this situation of working full-time?

Yeah, how much to finish up the doctorate?

So I have about 16 hours after this semester, so I'm pretty close, but just, you know, pulling teeth to get there.

And then dissertation, right?

That includes the dissertation, but I have it almost completely written.

Oh, okay. And you're—

but you have 16 hours of classwork also?

Uh, yes, sir. Okay, cool.

So what are you gonna do, one semester, or how long does that take?

Um, it— it—

the trajectory is about a year and a half, just how the coursework falls within the school. Then a map.

Okay, so it's not a real heavy course load then?

It's not, no, sir.

Okay. And so you're running a full-time 40 hours?

Yes, sir. Uh, yes, sir.

What do you make? Uh, right now I make about $50.

Okay, and you can't live on that?

I, I can. I've got a very, very tight budget, um, but I have about probably, you know, $15, $30 left over at the end of every month.

Is it just you? Just me.

Okay. Um, I, I want to know more about the money. Uh, you said you've only got $15 or $30. Do you have Do you have debt?

I don't know. So I'm in Baby Step 4, and I've saved up already for the school, so I have just about what I need to finish that above my 6-month emergency fund. Probably my biggest hurdle is just my rent. How much? I'm sitting at about $1,200 a month for that.

It's not as bad as I thought you were going to say.

So you said 4, you're putting 15% of your income away in retirement?

I'm not right now.

So you're not on 4. Okay. All right. Okay.

So there's a couple parts to this. The first part of your question is how do I stay motivated, which just sounded more like a, just an emotional space of staying motivated till the end. And then it sounds like there's also a financial component, which is also my budget is tight. Right, correct. I mean, in this case, let's talk about the budget first. In this case, it sounds like every square inch of your time is accounted for.

Am I wrong or am I right? You are beyond right.

Okay, so then the next place we can look is, is there anything that you can cut out of your budget? Is there anything that is worth changing for the next year and a half to make this thing better? Better. I'm looking at your rent, but I think to myself, you're probably in some sort of a lease. You've got a year and a half. I don't know that that's worth shaking loose.

So, um, what do you do for a living?

Sure. Um, so I've been working in the mental health field, um, for the last 8 years or so. Um, so I've been working in the health field. Doing what? Uh, right now I'm doing case management. I have been doing therapy. I shifted that just to have a little bit, uh, less stress to be able to kind of keep myself going.

And your PhD is in counseling or what?

It's actually in ministry, so it's merging the Christian field with therapy, trauma, all of that.

And what do you— what is your plans to do with that?

Sure, I'd like to merge it within, you know, therapy as well as shift into ministry as well. So I know it's not a real high-paying, you know, degree, but I know with therapy going, shifting into that, I can you know, nearly double my income.

I don't know why you couldn't do therapy through the lens of ministry and make excellent money. I don't know why you have to take a back seat just because you use the word ministry in the sentence.

Sure. And that's definitely part of my goal, is to be able to do that.

Yeah.

And with a PhD, you can teach as well.

So that's, that's part of the goal as well.

Okay. We want to make sure we monetize all of this hard work off the back. And don't, in the name of saying I'm holy or I'm doing ministry, accept less than you're worth in the marketplace. Instead, go be worth that in the marketplace, and that is a ministry. So you serving people in the counseling or mental health space with a faith-based element is hugely valuable. And sought after, by the way. So that's not something that you have to make, you know, $60,000 after going to all this work of doing a PhD. Don't do that. So anyway, I just want to pep talk you there. I think you can do a lot with this, and I want you to go make $100K plus, okay, when you're done with this PhD.

So there's the motivation to continue, right? Then it's worth it. Then it's worth it to just push on through.

But you know, you've gotten this far, and the light is at the end of the tunnel.

Lay out a detailed track that says, "On this date, I will be done. Dissertation will be reviewed and completed. The classwork will be completed, and they're gonna put 'Dr.' in front of Nicole's name, okay, on this date." Lay that out, and then you start to go— you can almost put that on the wall as a thermometer, and then just every month you check it off and work your way through, you know, like you were in kindergarten or something.

But it's good for you to visually see the feedback that we're making traction, we're heading in the right way, "Okay, we're gonna be okay." That helps.

If there's— the reason I was asking about all this is because you're doing your coursework and your casework Monday through Friday. If there's anything you can do on Saturday to add $1,500 a month to this situation, it's probably gonna make your life a lot better. And you're not gonna die from fatigue because you're young and you've got the ability to push through these things.

Nothing we're doing here is out of control. And it's not forever. It's for a short period of time.

And if you can make it something, if you can make it a side hustle that you enjoy doing, like if you're flipping furniture, right? If you enjoy arts and crafts, that's a great thing for you to do. Flip a piece of furniture, make $1,500 off it, right? Or if you enjoy, you know, working with your hands, do something that also feels like a little bit of a hobby that you enjoy while you're making money. I think that'll make it easier for you.

Yeah, you can do a little self-employed idea of some kind. Or you could stay right in the mental health field and do some kind of freelance casework of some kind. I don't care, but $1,500 a month would be a good trade for your Saturdays and would give you some breathing room in the budget, which also helps you fight through the fatigue and go, "I'm gonna make it. I've only got this many more months. I've got 8 months. I've got 7 months. I got 6 months. I got 5 months. I got 4 months.

We're gonna make it." And you start to—

but you got to put it down in detail where your mind believes believes that this is going to be over, because it is going to be over if you plan for it to be over. You don't want to be a perpetual student. No one— well, some people do. No one should. No one should. Yeah, that's a better way of saying that. Wow. Yeah, you got this.

Sacrifice to win. She's in it. It sounds like that. Just, you know, the other thing I would do is make sure someone else in the PhD program knows your story.

What you're doing. Sit down and share this. Even if you just share each other's tears for a little bit, or whine together. We're gonna whine a little bit.

Have a little whining session here. This is hard and I'm tired.

That's good. You need somebody to be able to talk to like that.

That's okay. There's nothing wrong with that.

That does give you energy.

Because if you're, you know, fighting the dragon all by yourself, you can get burned. And you need the other people speaking into you and speaking over you good things, that is.

So I mean, that's what you do all day long for other people.

You know, that's what a caseworker does. You speak life into the case, into the situation. You bring wisdom to the situation, perspective into the situation, and keeps it moving.

So I got a feeling you're gonna do great.

I want to hear how this whole PhD thing works out with your ministry, in quotes. Yeah, quotes. That's where it belongs.

Today's question of the day is brought to you by Why Refi? If you've fallen behind on your private student loans and have stopped making payments, it can feel like every door is closed. But Yrefy helps borrowers explore low fixed-rate refinancing options that fit their budget. Go to yrefy.com/ramsey. That's the letter Y, R-E-F-Y, dot com, slash Ramsey. Might not be in all states.

Okay, today's question comes from Rachel in Louisiana. She says, my husband and I have 5 kids between 5 and 15 years "old. We have Baby Step 4 in place through our jobs, but saving for college seems overwhelming with 5 kids. My husband and I are in our 40s with over $600,000 in retirement. Would you recommend reducing retirement contributions to 10% for a season to throw more money at college?" I wish I knew how old the others were.

I wish I knew how much they made.

I wish I knew how much they made, too. We're missing some valuable information I think at first glance, and I wish I knew how much you already had saved.

I don't think you're gonna make it. Yeah. Okay, here's why. Let's say you make $200,000 a year. If you reduce your retirement contributions by 5%, that's $10,000 a year. For 5 kids, that's $2,000 each. And you've only got 3 years before the first one gets there. That's $6,000. You've got 8 years before the next one gets there. That's $24,000. So this 5% does not factor properly.

So it's not going to change it.

Unless you make, you know, like $700,000 a year, which you don't or you wouldn't have been writing this email. I agree. So, you know, you're going to have to skin this cat another way because you've got this idea that retirement is blocking it until you actually put the real dollars to it, not the percentages. And then you can say that. Now, if you completely stopped it, it's not $10,000, it's $30,000. You know, that would help, but it's still not going to get you there completely.

So what I'm doing is I'm going to begin having training sessions with the children on what college looks like.

You want some help?

You ready, set, go.

Number one reason people take out student loans is not that they went to college, it's that they went to the wrong college. One they could not afford. Love a community college. Love a community college. Free in most states, near-free in the rest of them for the first 2 years. Get your basics out of the way, live at home.

Love working for you.

I need the college experience. Well, you had to have other parents because we don't have the money for you to have the college experience. We're not financing college experience, we're financing education here. Number one goal: get the education, not play beer pong But you can work.

Oh, that's number 2.

I love working. After college choice, we could work. Love it.

And guess what? You can earn a lot of money while you're in college working. Everybody that worked while you're in college, raise your hand out there. All of them just raise their hands in the lobby. Okay, come on. I mean, seriously, I work 40 to 60 hours a week.

I was so glad to get out of school so that it was— so that all I had to do was work. It's easier. I had to work and go to school.

Shut up. I wanted to graduate.

I wanted out of there. I know, that's right.

So not a pleasant experience. Experience.

It was something I was getting done. And there's time for scholarships here.

They've got time to— I mean, they got a 5-year-old through 15. There's a lot of money there for scholarships. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So where you go to school, work while you're in school, get scholarships. These are the 3 big things. By far the biggest is where you choose to go to school, because that first 2 years is anywhere between $0 and $100,000 a year.

Yeah. Oh gosh. Think about it.

I'm mad because I did not take our advice. And I understand that.

And you ended up with $200,000 in student loan debt. Yeah. $265,000, right? Yeah. Is that right? I'm not rubbing your nose in it. I'm just trying to remember.

I'm just saying most of that was from Sam.

Oh, okay. I wish we'd have gotten ahold of Sam.

Okay. That's fair.

We'll throw him under the bus since he's not here. Hey, Sam, next time I see you, I want to see the bus tracks. Okay. He's used to it.

Yeah, but either way, either way, it's what you signed up for when you married him too, so that goes with it. The thing is this: you can get a college education if you work while you're in school, apply for every scholarship in sight, go to a school you can afford, which includes probably the first 2 years are in a community college, and certainly after that you're doing in-state tuition. And by the way, let me help you people with this. No one cares where you went to school. They really don't. No one cares where you went to school. If someone is hiring based on where you went to school, you don't want to work for those people. They're not smart people. 78% of the Fortune 500 companies, the largest 500 companies on the stock exchange, 8 out of 10 of them, their CEO went to a state school. Hey Harvard, hold my beer. I'm not paying Princeton, MIT rates because it puts me into a job. There's no research that shows, not one iota of data that shows you're successful based on where you went to school. None. You can't find it. It's all BS. It's all people who are stuck on prestige, not education.

Don't get caught up in prestige. I'm telling you, it's not worth it. Now, if you've got an extra half million laying around and your kid wants to go to Vanderbilt, fine. If you got an extra half million dollars laying around and you want to put your kid at MIT, I'm okay with that. Or Northwestern, I'm okay with that. But you got to have the extra money laying around.

This lady does.

It doesn't. And this lie that we have sold to people in America that where you went to school is equated with your success is absolute data-based bullcrap. It does not exist. So choose a school you can afford and you will get a good education.

You don't believe me?

Last time you hired a lawyer, did you ask them where they went to school? You don't believe me? Last time you hired a cancer doctor, did you ask them where they went to school?

Did you ask your dentist where they went to school? No, you didn't. You asked them if you're going to hurt me while you clean my teeth.

That's all you wanted to know.

Did you ask your veterinarian before he gave your puppy a vaccination where he went to school? No, you didn't. And you don't have any freaking idea. I rest my case, boys and girls. All you care about is do they have the expertise? Did they get the knowledge at the school that they went to to do the job I'm asking them to do?

That's the only thing you care about.

When I'm hiring, I don't I don't care where you went to school. I've never hired a person based on where they went to school, and we got 1,000 people working at Ramsey. We hire them based on, can you do the freaking work? Do you know what you are doing on the thing we hired you to do? That's all we care about. I don't know if any of the people sitting in the booth even have a degree, much less where they went to school, or even if they got out of high school. One of them might not have. I'm kidding, not much. I'm serious, guys. This is a deal. Can you do the job? Are you a professional? Do you have the discipline? Do you know the stuff in your discipline? If you're an accountant, you should be able to do accounting, and you can learn to do that at a school no one ever heard of just as well as you pay $100,000 a year for. So it's bullcrap. So, this is the message we gave our kids. We had kid training.

But then you have to add in the point that you're making this decision when you're 18. You don't even fully know who you are yet, which is where you get to the point where you're spending this crazy amount of money for a degree that you don't even know if you're going to end up working in that field. 50% of folks don't even work in the field that they got their degree in.

Yeah.

Also, Rachel, last thing, I'm going to give you one more piece of advice. Download and watch tonight with the whole family, 5 years old and beyond, the YouTube documentary Borrowed Future, award-winning. We did it. When your 5-year-old reminds you when they're 25 that you showed them this when they were 5 and they said, oh, I'm not going into debt to go to school, that nobody cares where I went to school, all I care about is getting an education to do the thing I want to do—

when they remind you of that 20 years from now because they watched this documentary and you didn't think they were watching it because they're 5, they were They were watching it. You believe me, they were watching it. Ramsey kids will tell you, they learned stuff like this growing up. Where you go to school doesn't matter. What matters is the person in your mirror.

Are you going to go out there, leave the cave, kill something, and drag it home? Your perseverance, your integrity, your tenacity, your raw intellect, your ability to pivot in the marketplace, these are the things that cause you to be successful. Your character. Not freaking where you went to school.

Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. Jade Washaw, Ramsey personality, number one bestselling author, is my co-host. Sydney is in Augusta, Georgia. Hi Sydney, how are you?

Hi, hi Dave, thanks for taking my call. Sure, what's up?

I'm wondering how I can help my husband finish paying off our debt and become a Baby Step Millionaire as a stay-at-home mom of 2.

Good for you. What's he make? He makes $80,000 a year.

Very good. Very good.

How much debt have you guys got?

We had about $67,000 and we've paid off $30,000 in the last year. Way to go! Wow!

How'd you do that?

By a lot of couponing and scrimping and budgeting. Wow! So you were living on $50,000 45?

Yes. Holy smokes, way to go!

Good for you. Good for you. That's how you do it. You want to know how to get there? That's how you do it. You were, you know, the only difference is you're probably gonna dial back the intensity after you get out of debt. But all it is is you're intentional, doing this on purpose.

How old are you guys? I just turned 30, and he's—

I'm sorry, I just turned 33. He just turned 29.

Okay, very cool.

What's he do for living? He's in the Army.

Oh, very good. Planning to be career or what?

We're not sure at this point. Officer, I guess. He's hoping to make—

what is it— Staff Sergeant pretty soon.

Okay, good, good. Yeah.

All right, fine. Well, good. Tell him thanks for serving this country. You too, because you get to go along for the ride. And so, well, your number one— you've obviously been listening to what we teach— your number one wealth-building building tool is your income. And if from age 30 to age 60 or 70 you invest 15% of your income, you're going to be multimillionaires. I don't know how long before you reach the first million, but you could get on the RamseySolutions.com website, click on the retirement calculator, and play with some numbers to give you the assurance that you're going to be able to do it. But I'm As a stay-at-home mom that coupons and is tight on the budget and knows how to watch and make everything squeak, you're a home economist, you're cooking from scratch, the kids' clothes aren't wearing out, they're not sick all the time, and you know, you're saving tons of money by operating your household the way you're operating it, and you can continue to do that without putting a huge strain on the family. Y'all have been very intentional So, but when you get out of debt, I want you to lighten up the intensity a little bit, but I want you to just run the numbers.

The two of you sit down with that retirement calculator tonight, and if you invest 15% of your income from the time you're out of debt until you retire, it's at least $2 million right now. That's where you'll be, okay? Maybe $3 when you put it in, I'm not sure, okay? But yeah, I want you to do that, and then as far as being a Baby Steps millionaire, when you get the house paid off, the value of the house plus whatever you've got saved, I predict you're gonna be there in about 10 years. So you'll have your first million-dollar net worth in about 10 years. That's what it sounds like based on the math.

Yeah. Is that okay? Yeah, we hope so.

I mean, because we're also gonna be looking at, if he does not stay in the Army, moving back home.

And we know that's selling our house here, which we're not attached to whatsoever, and then buying land back home. Where's back home? Uh, in Texas. Okay. All right. Yeah.

So not unaffordable, I hope. No. Okay. Very affordable. Good. Yeah. Okay. So, and, and of course he'll need a, an income, a career for what he does after he leaves the military, right?

Yes.

He's gotten several job offers that are very high paying for us.

What kind of income?

Um, making it probably about double, from $160,000 to $180,000. That's awesome. You sound worried. What are you worried about? Uh, I'm not so much worried.

I just, I feel like I'm not really pulling my weight right now because I just take care of our kids and my husband is just—

Oh wow.

Yeah, girl, I say just. You're raising the next Billy Graham and you just took care of your kids.

You know, but think about—

hold on, hold on a second. Think about for a second, don't tell Sharon Ramsey that she just raised Rachel. Okay, think about for a second all the tasks that you do inside the home and think for a moment what it would take if you were to, if you were to go away and you had to pay someone to do those tasks. Wash all, wash all the clothes, wash all the dishes, keep the house clean, keep the kids clean, get feed them where they're going on time, pick them up. You'd have to hire a live-in full-time nanny to do that job.

We're talking Mary Poppins here.

Yeah, that is real economic and financial value. It is 100%. It's just baked in. You're just used to doing it.

It equates to around $50,000 or $60,000 a year, maybe more depending on how many kids.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, my husband wants 5 someday, so listen, cha-ching.

Yeah, well, that, that's a different discussion, but yeah. But the point is, you guys are fine. You are not a princess. You are a person who's content. You're adding value, tremendous value to your family economically and emotionally, so that when he's at work, he's not worried about the home front. Yeah, that's what he tells me. Zig Ziglar used to call it the home court advantage. You know, when a team plays on their home court, they've got the home team cheering for them. They have an advantage of several points over the visitor. You know what I'm talking about, right? Right? Yes. When you take care of the household, you're providing a home court advantage, and you're playing a key role.

It's huge.

Key role. It's huge. Let me tell you, the fact that Sharon Ramsey was there and was a solid rock and wasn't high maintenance allowed me to go do this Ramsey thing. This Ramsey thing wouldn't be there if I had to run home and do maintenance all the time. Yeah, she never said, "Wait till your father gets home." They were hoping he was going to get home.

It's a relief. Maybe he'll save us.

Daddy will save us. No, I'm serious. I mean, that's— there was no need that, you know, I— yes, I did my part as the dad, but, um, I'm telling you, the value that she did there is a thing.

And I'll leave you this last one thing, and And that is Proverbs 31: Who can find a virtuous wife? For her worth is far above rubies. Wow. And her husband safely trusts her, and he will have no lack of gain.

You want no lack of gain? Get you a Sydney.

I'm telling you, if you get a Sydney, you're gonna have no lack of gain. You get a Sharon, you're gonna have no lack of gain. And we just cannot say that enough. And the problem— and Deloney's talked about this before, Jade, and you and Rachel have done a great job of unpacking it as well.

The problem is that in our culture today, guys can just go win. It's okay. Gals, they don't win even when they win.

No, there's guilt. So, if you go in the marketplace, you've abandoned your children.

If you go at home and you stay at home, you've wasted your life.

And you got guilt and shame coming from the stupid people in the culture, no matter what you do. No matter what. There's a no-win. Or there's a win-win, whatever it is.

"Oh, I can be a great mom and work and be professional and produce in the marketplace." Or, "I can be a great mom and that is producing." Or, "I can be in the marketplace a lot and produce.

And Bubba be changing some diapers. Hello? Yep. You know, I mean, this is all— there ain't nothing wrong with any of these scenarios. Nope.

You just have to be confident in the one that you select.

Listen up, folks. If you've got a complicated tax situation and you're putting off filing your return, it's time to talk with a Ramsey Trusted Tax Pro. Not next week, not April 15th, right freaking now. Ramsey Trusted Tax Pros know the tax code front to back so they can do the heavy lifting to help you file on time and explain things to you with the heart of a teacher. Feature, but they can only do that if you get on their schedule before they book up. Go to ramseysolutions.com/taxpro to find a full-time tax advisor who serves your area with excellence. That's ramseysolutions.com/taxpro. Well, we wish we could get to every call and question here on the show. So if you have a money question and want an answer for your situation, head on over to our website and use Ask Ramsey. Ask Ramsey is our free AI tool that's built and trained only on proven Ramsey principles. If you don't know how AI works, it's artificial.

It's not real. It's not intelligence. It's artificial intelligence.

And it can only regurgitate it's going to imitate the data set that you put into it.

And so if your data set is skewed or screwed up or has bad information in it, it's going to produce bad information out the back.

So this has not got that problem because we own it. So there's nothing—

no data set has been put into this except 3 years of calls off this show and how we answer the calls and all of Financial Peace University and all the articles we've written and all the books we've written, the Ramsey personalities and me, and they're all dumped into the datasets from all of those to answer your questions, and then the AI tool generates the answer, and it sounds really close, like exactly like you're listening to the show.

It's not quite as smart-aleck.

I'm trying to get them to add my smart-aleck in there a little bit, or my mean side, like if I've had too much coffee, but so far it's a little nicer than I am. But that's okay.

We can go with that.

Rachel's a little nicer version of me anyway.

So, and Jade is too. So there you go. So ask your question at RamseySolutions.com or click the link in the description if you've been listening on a podcast or on YouTube. Ask Ramsey, the new AI tool, free, completely free. Give it a shot. All right. Troy is in Toledo. Hi Troy. What's up? Hi Dave. How you doing? Better than I deserve.

How can I help? Great. My wife and I are self-employed.

We're in our mid-60s. And we're approaching semi-retirement. My wife does all the financing and has put us in a very good position of life.

I would want to—

I want to purchase an RV so we can start adventuring out.

She wants to pay off the mortgage first. How much money do you have that's a good position?

Well, we probably— we have like $1.25 million in real estate.

Mm-hmm. Um, we have about $550,000 in mutual funds as far as our investment goes. Mm-hmm. And how much is the mortgage balance?

Uh, about $425,000 on a $1.7 million house.

Okay. That we just built 3 years ago.

And what's your income? Uh, between—

we're self-employed, um, anywhere between $300,000 and $400,000.

$200,000 a year.

So you can pay off the house in like 2 years, right?

Well, we're on a good track that we are approaching 3 to 4. She wants to push it a little bit harder.

Okay. How much is the RV?

We're looking anywhere between $200,000 and $300,000.

Hopefully putting $100,000 down. Okay. Oh, financing.

Yeah. I would not buy it if I didn't pay cash. I wouldn't buy it if I didn't pay cash. For it. I would buy a used one instead of a new one because they really go down in value, like unbelievable go down in value. And so, and I would pay off the mortgage first. In the meantime though, I don't mind scratching your itch. You have a great income, you've got a great net worth, you've done a great job, you're just not quite across the finish line. And I would scratch the itch just by renting one for the few weeks or weekends that you want I mean, you can rent that same $300,000 for nothing. Yes.

We have one, Dave. It's just not the one that—

Oh, you already own one.

Interesting. Yes. So, would you be selling that one, taking the $100,000? Is that where the $100,000 was coming from?

That's part of the $100,000. Okay.

And our concern is we're both relatively healthy, and yet we have some concerns that if we wait 4 or 5 years, we may not be in a position to do that.

Take the one you got and go on the road. Up. You have one. Well, I know, but listen, the only difference is not that you don't get to go while you're healthy.

The difference is you don't get to go in the style you wanted to go.

This is true. How old are you? 65 or 66, you said? Um, I'm 62, my wife is 67. 66. Yeah, okay.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, you're doing great. You're doing great.

But do not finance to. I mean, you can rent that same 300,000 for nothing. Yes, we have one, Dave. It's just not the one that. Oh, you already own one. Interesting. Yes. So would you be selling that one? Taking the hundred? Is that where the hundred was coming from? That's part of the hundred. Okay.

And our concern is we're both relatively healthy and yet we have some concerns that if we wait four or five years, we May not be in a position.

Take the one you got and go on the road.

Shut up. Flag. Boom, you're done.

Even after that, don't finance it. Victoria is in Washington, D.C. Hey Victoria, what's up?

Hello. Um, nice to see you guys. I just kind of started tuning in not too long ago. Cool. Um, which I regret for some financial decisions I've made in the past.

I thought you said you regret tuning in. I was starting to worry. We all feel that way.

Sooner. Yeah. Um, well, I guess about a year ago I was kind of drowning in minimum payments because I had racked up a good amount of credit card debt. Um, cause I bought my house when I was 22 and I didn't understand the cost that comes with owning a house. Um, and so I, about a year ago I was looking through options and I chose to do a debt settlement, which I didn't fully understand what that was. Was, but they promised a low monthly payment that I could maintain, so I did it. And I'm currently on Baby Step 2, and I should have all but 2 loans paid off by the end of this year. And those 2 loans is, which I called a debt settlement loan, but there's no interest on it. And then I'm finishing grad school, and I finish grad school at the end of this year. And I, so I'll have to start paying on my student, my student loans, which are about $70,000. Um, and that includes undergrad and grad.

Um, what will happen to your income when you finish grad school?

Um, unfortunately, well, I'm also getting, I'm an engineer, so I'm getting my professional engineering license. Um, I'm not exactly certain what they're, um, what I'm going to get. I'm hoping it's not going to be a much of a large, a big pay cut.

Jump. I make $96,000.

Okay, so why are you getting all these licenses and graduate degrees if they're not causing your income to go up?

The graduate degree is more of a long-term, hopefully get my income up. It's just that I'm so young and I guess inexperienced that it doesn't necessarily help me now, but it'll help in my career trajectory. How old are you?

And then I'm 26.

Hmm, don't know if I believe that or not. I want you to investigate. I want you to investigate that because one of the things we found is engineers have the highest highest probability of becoming millionaires of any career track. So that's really good.

I am civil, so we do make less than some, but there— that's another question I've been, I've been battling with, is there's opportunities out there that I could leave my current job and make 70% more than I do now, but I love what I do so much, and I don't love it that much.

I could learn to love it a lot for 70% more. You're talking about an $80,000 a year raise. Yes, that's kind of a no-brainer. Even if you did it for 3 or 4 years.

Yeah, definitely. So I am applying to that position.

You never told us, you never told us how much the first consolidation loan was for.

That originally was for, it was for $40,000 and I think I owe $35,000 right now. Okay, so you're— and then my student loans are $70,000. And I guess my question is, I know that the snowball effect, you're supposed to pay off the smaller loan, but my student loans are going to have a 6% interest.

Don't care about the interest. I care about you getting out of debt in 20 minutes. Take the new job, make a lot more money, pay off debt quickly. That's what I would do. And list them smallest to largest. If you pay it all off in a year, it's not going to matter.

Yeah, if you— especially if you take the job, the job where you're making double double, you're making $180,000 instead of $96,000 or, you know, $160,000, and then you live off $60,000.

You're just, it's just you. Yeah. And just clean up the stinking mess. pay it off in 1 year, the interest rates don't matter. They're irrelevant because they don't have, there's no actual monetary creation by the interest rate that doesn't create any actual money. If you're going to, if you're going to keep it around like a pet for 5 years, now we worry about interest rates. But yeah, you need to get in attack zone. You are being classic engineer. You're overanalyzing. Hit this with an atom bomb between the eyes.

Hey guys, Dave Ramsey here. Every day on this show, we help people work through real money problems and figure out what to do next. Now you can get that same kind of help anytime with Ask Ramsey. Ask your money question and get answers built on Ramsey principles we use on the show. Whether you're making a decision or just want something explained, Ask Ramsey is here to help. It's fast, simple, and free to use. Go to ramsaysolutions.com and try Ask Ramsey today. That's ramsaysolutions.com. In the lobby of Ramsey Solutions on the debt-free stage, Patrick and Tiffany are with us. Hey guys, how are you?

Oh, we're fired up.

So excited to be here. Welcome. Well, good to have you. Where do you live?

We live in Rock Springs, Wyoming.

Fun. Welcome to Nashville.

And how much debt have you guys paid off? $506,700. Wow! And how long did this take? 93 months.

93 months. And your range of income during that time?

We started at $190,000 and we're now at $300,000. Very good. What do y'all do for a living? I'm a maintenance manager in the oil and gas industry. Ah, okay. Yep, and I'm in healthcare.

Good for y'all. Well done. So I'm guessing with that period of time and that amount of money, you paid off your house.

You got it. Look at that, weird people!

Yes, sir, 100% debt-free!

Yes, way to go, you guys! So what's this house worth?

About $650,000. All right, cool.

And how much in your retirement nest egg? About $525,000. So you broke the Baby Steps Millionaires barrier.

We got her.

You're in there. Yeah, I like it.

How old are you two?

I both just turned 40 about a month ago. So you're 40-year-old millionaires in Wyoming. Paid-for house, the retirement is underway, you're making $300 grand, took 93 months to get the house and everything paid off. So how'd you get connected to Ramsey? What's your Ramsey story?

So Christmas of 2017, my dad and stepmom, they always get their kids themed gifts, and that year was finance books. So I received Financial Peace Revisited by Dave Ramsey. I'd never heard of you a day in my life. My life. So January, cracked the book, start reading it, and man, it just made sense. You know, you weren't trying to sell me anything. You were just laying things out. I knew my sister got another book by Dave Ramsey, and it was The Total Money Makeover. So I asked her, hey, can I borrow that book? She said, oh yeah, I'm not gonna read that. So I read that in like a week, and there's the plan. It's just laid out and man, I couldn't believe it. I'm just so excited. So I approached Tiffany, and she was a little reticent, but took her a little bit to get on board. And March 1st, 2018, we started the plan. From reading the book, I found out you had a radio show, started listening to that. And I remember the very first week I was listening, a couple from Connecticut called in with the debt-free scream, and I was just like, what is this?

I was so confused, but continued to listen to the show, and about 3 weeks in, listened to a debt-free scream, and afterwards you said Proverbs 22:7, "The rich rule over the poor and the borrower is slave to the lender." And you repeated, "The borrower is slave to the lender," like 3 times. And man, it hit me like a ton of bricks. It took my breath away. And I was just— I just got so angry because I didn't want to be a slave. And I never realized I was. And so, from that point forward, we were on fire. Started coordinating FPU. I took Financial Coach Master Training and just, man, we've just— eat, slept, and breathed this stuff in. It's an amazing program and I just love what it can do for people. I never thought in a million years I'd be in this financial position where I am today. And I'm just so grateful for your teachings and just want to spread the word to everybody And everybody that I meet, you know, it's always— I always make sure it comes up in conversation because I just, I can't believe what this has done for us.

It's been amazing. Thanks.

Well, Tiffany, when we're through with your husband, we'll send him back.

Good gracious. Yeah, it is. It's a daily conversation where we live.

The body snatchers have come.

Yeah. How did you get into it? How did, how did How did you intersect through all of this?

So, he sat me down and was like, "Hey, I wanna do this." And I said, "Hold on, you're putting me on a budget because you spend a lot of money. Time out here, time out here." And so, he was like, "Just give me 3 months, 3 months." And so, I said, "Okay." So, we went through our first 90 days. And after that, like, I found that I wasn't affect— you know, like, I wasn't affected much. I was still doing what I was doing 'cause I'm not the spender of the family.

So, it didn't really hit me much.

It was like, "Okay, we're gonna do this and put, you're gonna put yourself on a budget. That's cool." And then it just kind of worked out. And you know, there were a couple kinks at the beginning and trying to figure out how, 'cause we did, we kept a pencil box in our closet with envelopes that said gas money and grocery money. And I can tell you, I was very frustrated the first or second time I was out needing gas and had to go home to get money to go back to the gas station. But I mean, slight adjustments. Investments, and it's worked out really, really well for us. And it's, it's got us through some really, really hard, hard times in our family. And we're just very, very grateful that he was turned on to you guys.

Yeah, it's lived a lot of life in 8 years. You know, we've— Carly was 1, our daughter, when we started the program. Our son was born March 20th, 2020, or March 14th, 2020. About 8 months in, he was diagnosed with a real aggressive form of leukemia. Oh no. You know, it's been a 10-month battle, and unfortunately he lost his battle in September of 2021. But he was such a, such a battler, and we miss him. But wow, you know, so we've been through a lot, but this, you know, was a good distraction after that, just something to pour into and to keep focused and keep going. You know, I've dreamt of this moment for 8 years. Years. I've— ever since I heard the first one, it's like, man, we're going to get there, we're going to do it, and we're here.

I can't believe the heartbreak that goes with the process. So the highs are high and the lows are low. Absolutely.

I mean, it's very real, and we've felt them both.

Yeah, it makes us real bittersweet and all those words, right? Absolutely. Wow. Wow. I'm so sorry. Thanks. And I'm so happy for you. I'm so proud of you. Thanks. And I know you brought family with you.

I met the parents a minute ago.

They're happy. Yes. Cheering you on. So who were your best cheerleaders? Who were your best cheerleaders? The one that gave you the book?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think they never thought I'd ever, you know, take it to extremes, obviously.

Did your sister ever come around? That's what I was going to ask.

Not yet. Not yet. Not yet. Okay. They're Dave-ish, I think. But okay, someday, yeah, they'll get there.

They'll start seeing it, what your life looks like, and it'll happen.

Yeah, yeah. Now, now it's just amazing You know, we spent the past 8 years getting out of debt, and now we're excited to be able to live and give.

So what's the first big thing you're gonna do to celebrate with all this money? Because you're killing it, man.

Well, we went to Legoland last week. Woo! There you go.

Yeah, what a celebration, right? We get out of debt and go to Legoland. So exciting.

It's all about who wants to go. Absolutely.

We told our daughter once we hit this milestone, she could pick her own vacation, and she did.

So she did. So what's the one you're gonna do? What's your next next vacation?

Uh, we want to do maybe go on some cruises. We did one, uh, for our 10th anniversary, and that was really fun. I think we'd like to do a couple of them, go to the Caribbean. Yeah, good.

Yeah, you live like no one else. Later you can live and give like no one else. You're 40-year-old millionaires. Wow. And 100% debt-free. You ever think you'd say that?

No, no, no, not even close. Yeah.

Nope. I love it. I'm so proud of you. Way to go. And I know the family is. All kidding They're beaming when I came out there and met them a while ago. So, absolutely incredible. So, very well done, you guys.

All right, you're a coach, and Tiffany, you're on board and partner in this whole thing.

What do you tell people the key to getting out of debt is and being a millionaire by the time you're 40?

You know, the key, like they always say, is definitely the budget, but I think you get that fire in your belly, you get that anger and that drive, drive, and you can change and do anything. So I think you just got to get mad enough and you'll change. You know, just like you always say, what you focus on is what you win at. And that, that's so true. Simple advice, but it works. Amen.

So 9 years grinding it, was it worth it?

Oh yes. Yeah. Anybody listening to this, just do it. Like Dave always says, just, just start, just go. And man, Man, it's amazing what it'll do for you.

I can't argue with the fact it worked. That's the way to go. Absolutely. Because you worked, worked your tail end off.

All right, bring Miss Carly up. You said she's 9?

Yep. Come on, Miss Carly, you join in on the debt-free scream. Way to go, Legoland, I love it.

That's a good suggestion. Well done. All right, Patrick and Tiffany and Carly from Wyoming.

What was your son's name? Paxton.

And Paxton, 100% debt-free. Debt-free, house and everything, Baby Steps Millionaires by the time they're 40. Count it down, let's hear a debt-free scream!

3, 2, 1, we're debt-free!

This is how it works, boys and girls. Watch them. This is That's it.

When I talk to people on The Ramsey Show, 90% of the problems I hear come down to one thing: not having a plan. They're not living on a budget. They have no idea where their money's going. Money is just happening to them instead of them happening to their money. Your money. And guys, that is so normal, but it doesn't have to be normal for you. And that's why I want you to go download our EveryDollar budget app. EveryDollar not only helps you tell your money where to go with a budget, it also builds a plan to free up extra money so you can pay debt off faster and start building wealth. And the best part, your plan is completely personalized to your life. It's the same advice that you would get if you called show, and it's right in your pocket. So don't keep living normal. Go download the EveryDollar app, answer a few questions, and get your plan today.

Our Scripture of the Day, Proverbs 14:30: A heart at peace gives life to the body, but envy rots the bones. Theodore Roosevelt said, I have never in my life envied a human being who led an easy life. I have envied a great many people who led difficult lives and led them well. Hmm, he would, he would. That's cool, very neat. Jeff's in Austin, Texas.

Hi, Jeff, how How are you?

Good, Dave.

How are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up? Not much.

So this call is mainly about my mother. She, uh, is on limited income. She makes about $1,600 a month from Social Security and she hasn't made any afterlife plans. And we went to the funeral home recently and they quoted us about $25,000 to $26,000. I'm sorry. It gets, it gets, it gets bad. Better. So obviously, you know, we don't have that kind of money. So they said, well, we could do this on a payment plan. We— yeah, I bet you can. $600 for the next 5 years of your life. And I don't even know— yeah, I don't even know if my mom has that amount of time. So I, I, I'm torn because I'm not— her last wish.

Well, that's why I called in.

I want to hear your opinion.

No, I mean, I listen, I love people in my life, but the deal is it's not her— she doesn't have any money.

Right?

She does not have any money.

Okay, so she's not talking about paying for this. She's asking you to pay for this.

Well, she didn't—

she doesn't put it that way. She hasn't explicitly asked for it, but in a way, yeah, she does.

But I mean, that's, that's the expectation. Like, she's not got a house that's going to be sold that pays for it.

She does own her house. It's, it's in pretty bad shape though, and honestly, I don't know what kind of money we're going to be able to get out of it.

Well, you're going to get $25,000 out of it.

I hope so. I hope at least that.

Yeah, if she wants to spend her money on her funeral, I don't mind that. Okay, I wouldn't do that, but I'm not gonna pay for it out of my pocket if I'm you. Okay. And I think that's absurd. I think she got sold by a salesman.

Yeah, they wanted, they wanted $400 for a video that they were going to make with some of her pictures. Like, there was a bunch of add-ons and ridiculous things that they wanted to throw go in there.

So, Mom, you did not live your life in a Mercedes, and you shouldn't die in a Mercedes.

And if she doesn't want to sell her home, then that's just—

no, no, when she dies, it's no question.

Okay, so she does sell the home, so I would pay for it up front. No, no, no, no, no, no.

You don't prepay a funeral ever. You pre-plan a funeral, but you never prepay a funeral.

You're saying that it's going to take some time from the time that she passes to get the money from the sale of the house.

It's gonna take a whole lot of time, because her house is in horrible condition. So, it's gonna take over a year, probably, to get the money.

And you're saying, how do I pay? But we don't know that. You could auction it the next weekend. I mean— Yeah, that's true. Because it's junky. Just have an auctioneer come out and sell the stupid thing and pay for the funeral. But I really would advise her to spend money on the funeral appropriate to her situation. There's no gain spiritually in what you spend on a funeral. Funeral. There's no gain for the people that are left behind that are grieving over what you spend for a funeral. And so, no, I really, I think she got sold.

Yeah, I think so too.

Matter of fact, I would use a completely different funeral operator.

I think this person's a slickster. Okay.

Because I don't think, if I own that funeral home, I don't sell that lady a $25,000 package. Because this lady's broke.

And so I'm not— and asking you to put it on payments. I'm not doing business with this guy. Okay. I would go to a different funeral home and say, I want the cheaper casket. You can buy a casket at Costco, you know that?

Yes, I do absolutely know that.

And they're what, $1,300 or something? I saw it the other day, I couldn't believe it. That's crazy. Freaking everything.

I mean, if you buy 6, you get a deal. No, I'm I'm kidding.

This is getting worse and worse. But truly, the average funeral cost is somewhere between $7,800 and $8,500.

That's the average nationally. Yeah. And that's the average including rich people.

Exactly. That's— thank you, Dave. Yeah. So, it just gives you a clear indicator that you were being swindled.

I would set a budget of $5,000 to $6,000 if I were her. If I'm you, I'd be willing to pay that and be reimbursed when the house sells. I would not— and that's after after she dies.

You there? Yeah, I'm here, I'm here.

Yeah, I thought it dropped. Okay, that's okay.

So after she dies, we'll talk to the funeral home and see how long you can wait to pay the bill.

A lot of times they'll wait till the estate gets some stuff cleaned up.

There may be a little bit of money in her checking or whatever, and you, you should have your emergency fund in place. And if you want to pay the $6,000 under the condition you're going to be reimbursed when the house $1,000. That's fine. I wouldn't do any more than that. That's plenty here. And I wouldn't do business with the people you did that to, because that just creeps me out.

That's such a— you're 100% right. That is such a hard conversation to have. That sounds like a terrible conversation.

Yeah, but I mean, she can choose to do otherwise.

Yeah, she can choose. But she doesn't have the choice to prepay it, because she doesn't have any money.

Prepaying a funeral, by the way, people, is really dumb. Never prepay a a funeral. Pre-plan your funeral. That's wonderful.

That's a gift to your loved ones.

You mean like buying the burial plots ahead of time?

If you want to buy the burial plot, pick the casket, pick out how the service, write everything down how you want it to go, and set the budget on it, and they can just write the checks when you die, then that's a gift. People that are grieving don't have to make decisions.

Yeah, it's already been done.

Did mom want the Chevrolet coffin, or did she want the Mercedes coffin? I don't know about mom. What would mom really want? Oh, brother. And write it all down.

Don't bury me in the diamond, wear it, you know, whatever, right? Write it all down. Tell people that way when they're grieving, it's all planned. But do not write a check to the funeral home. Maybe buy the plots if you want to do that, but do not write a check prepaying the funeral home, because from that point forward, you make zero return on your money except for the inflation rate of a funeral, which is about the normal inflation rate, about 4 or 5%. So you're making nothing on your Funeral home's got your money for what, 5, 10, 15, 20 years? I don't know. That's a good point. And don't prepay. Just pay it when they die. Preplan it is fine. So I would say, Mom, here's what I suggest.

I love you. I think a $6,000 funeral is fine.

The average funeral in America is $7,000, and you don't have any money. And I got to pay it when you die, and it's got to be reimbursed out of the house, and I need to see the will that says that.

And we can set all that up, and I'll go to a different funeral home with you, and we can pick out everything and plan it, and you're gonna be just fine, and I'm gonna make sure you're taken care of with dignity, and we will all be sad either way. Please don't spend the last $25,000 you have on this earth for a funeral home to have a profit.

Now, does your, your thought process on that, does that play out the same if you're like, if you're wealthy healthy, the opportunity cost on them holding that money.

For sure, never prepay. I haven't prepaid. I don't recommend you prepay. If you want to buy the plot, that's fine, but don't prepay a funeral. It's the worst deal ever. The younger you are, the dumber the deal is.

Well, yeah, because then they're holding the money for longer.

Opportunity cost on that money. Yeah, I mean, if you took $6,000 and you're 30, what's that going to be? It's going to be $600,000, $600,000 or $700,000 if it were invested. And you know, what are you, King Tut? I mean, who needs a $700,000 funeral?

I mean, come on.

So, no, you don't need that funeral. That's a bad deal. No, opportunity cost is a big deal on this stuff. And this is how these people make a living. And they do really well. The margins are, as you might guess based on this discussion, pretty incredible.

02:04:45

Oh boy, yeah, because he was about to get sold.

02:04:48

Man, they did.

Mama done got Momma done signed up for the whole thing for her son to pay $600 a month for 5, just a measly 5 years, easy 60 payments. Oh boy, oh boy. That's like a car payment on a casket.

It's a vehicle, a hearse. Can't even drive it.

Can't even drive it.

We're making too many jokes.

Well, I mean, you gotta have some fun with this stuff. You do, I know. People are dying everywhere. That's right, that's right.

So, so we've learned something valuable here.

Don't prepay your funeral.

And if you want to pay a ridiculous sum for your funeral, you need to have that ridiculous sum in the bank. Don't ask your loved ones to pay for that. That's unfair. That is not right. Mom, you should not be doing that. And the funeral home sales guy ought to be smacked silly. That's just—

you're—

that's just irresponsible at a minimum, immoral at a maximum. And so, don't sell people stuff they can't afford, people. It's not a good way to make a living. You should make a living otherwise. You should do something completely different from that. So, wow. Interesting question. I don't think we've had that one in a while. Very fun.

That puts us an hour of The Ramsey Show in the books.

We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace. Peace, Christ Jesus.