Transcript of Income Isn’t the Problem—Your Money Plan Is New

Brought to you by the EveryDollar app. Start budgeting for free today. Normal is broke and common sense is weird, so we're here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey Network and the Fairwinds Credit Union studio, this is the Ramsey Show. I'm Dave Ramsey. Rachel Cruz, Ramsey personality, number one bestselling author, my daughter, is my co-host today. Open phones at 888-818-1111. 888-825-5225. Brad is in Atlanta, Georgia. Hi Brad, how are you?

I'm doing good, Dave. How are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

So, you know, I've just been kind of struggling lately. You know, I, I make pretty decent money, made about $92K last year, but you know, I'm still kind of catching myself living paycheck to paycheck with very minimal savings. So I'm just trying to see, you know, what's a good budgeting tool, you know, to really get me up there, you know, so I can feel more comfortable about my finances.

Brad, do you— how much consumer debt do you have?

I'd say I'm about $20K in debt.

What kind of debt is it?

Right now it's a finance loan for a car, about $2K for a personal loan, and then the rest is just, you know, odd ends, about $5K, $5K, $6K in credit cards.

Okay. Are you using the credit cards to, to stay afloat, or is this things beyond just needs that you're using the credit card for?

I mean, I feel like, you know, every time I make a credit card payment, something comes up to where I have to use it again. So I'm not really bringing that balance down. Yeah, I mean, constantly. No, I am not. I've been in a relationship for about 7 months now and just found out a few weeks ago that my girlfriend is pregnant and this will be her first kid and my second child. I already have a 1.5-year-old son.

Okay.

Well, there's a couple of things kind of going through my head, Brad. Number one is that there is a chance it's a lot of disorganization and you're living from crisis to crisis. And when that happens, there's an urgency that's created that you end up actually not only making bad financial decisions, but you end up spending more money when that's your mindset versus having a plan in place, knowing exactly where every single dollar is going and cutting up the credit card. That's not your safety net anymore. And kind of getting around, again, this idea that you're digging yourself into a hole while you're trying to get out of debt. And so, what I would say to you is, number one, I think the budget's gonna be key for you. And before we get off the line, Christian can pick up and we can get you a year of EveryDollar and to really map out and say, okay, here's what I'm bringing home every single month. And here is where this is going. And you're gonna start to see some glaring habits about where the money has been going, and you're gonna start to see, wow, I can't be spending like I've been spending.

So you're gonna feel a pullback from lifestyle, but what that's gonna give you then is cash and margin to be able to build up some savings and then start working your way out of debt. But it's really this process that you have to go through, because if you stay in this cycle, You're gonna keep getting what you've been getting. And so breaking out of it is big, but in your case, the, the level of chaos, I think having something grounded and facts in front of you, a plan that doesn't have feelings that you can go and stick to is gonna be really important.

How old are you?

Okay. I am 30. I turned 31 this month.

Okay. Let's pretend that I hired you for $90,000 a year and your job was to make this guy Brad's money behave. "if you don't do your job, I'm gonna fire you." What would you do? You would write down every one of those dollars and tell it what to do, and you would make those dollars behave. Right now they're just kind of running loose and running amok. They're all over the place. And so when you use the EveryDollar budgeting app, which we're gonna hook you up with, you're gonna give every one of those dollars a name before the month begins, an assignment, and then you're by God gonna stick to it. When you do this, the first time you write it all out, you're gonna go, where has I been spending all this money? You're gonna feel like you got a raise. That's what will happen as soon as you get organized and intentional. And, you know, and as quickly as possible and is reasonable, make the decision if we're going to be a family or not. And 'cause that weaves into this greatly. So if we're going to be a family, that means we're getting married.

That's what a family is. And so if that's where this is going, y'all need to make that decision, and then you need to weave that into your overall plan. That, you know, we now have a human to raise. You've got two. But now we have this baby that we are responsible for, and so we can't be going to happy hour. We've got to clean up this debt. We've got to have money for—

she for sure can't—

formula and, well, formula and baby diapers. I mean, here we go. Yeah, for sure. That's right. Jamie's in Dayton, Ohio. Hi Jamie, how are you?

I'm, I'm all right. I've been doing better.

Uh-oh, what's up?

So I woke up this morning and decided that my husband is not doing anything but keeping me poor because he blows his whole check and mine is expected to pay for everything else. So what I'm trying to figure out is if it's worth staying in the house I'm in now and paying $750 or moving to a friend's house that he owns and paying $500 a month for a 2-bedroom for like a year so I can get my debt paid down and my life together.

$250 a month is not your problem, is it?

No, my problem is that I've been doing this for 10 years and it's just been me and I pay I have— so me and him have 5 kids together, and I have 5 older kids that live with their dad because when I left, he kept them and wouldn't let me have them. But we have a good— I still see them. I have them every other weekend, but I pay $1,000 a month in child support before I even get paid.

What do you make?

$24.61 an hour, so about probably like—

what's he make?

$14.42 an hour. Yeah, because he won't keep a job.

I reckon not. He's got the worst job on the planet. I mean, crap, Target's paying $20 an hour.

Um, yeah, he won't, he won't keep a job. And I'm just, I woke up this morning and it was like a light switch hit and I'm just tired of being tired.

Yeah. Well, I mean, you opened the call with he's not pulling his weight and then you instantly changed to do I move to a $250 cheaper house? $250 is not your problem. You two getting on the same page and you two accelerating in your careers is your problem.

No. Well, yeah, but we'll see. I'm on track to finish the year making $28 an hour.

Okay.

My job now.

Yeah, but he's not. And, and so getting on track with him is like 90% of your problem, not your rent.

No, I know, but he The problem is he won't get on track. I've been trying for 10 years.

Well, that's a marriage problem. That's a marriage problem. But what I'm telling you is $250 a month moving to the cheaper house doesn't solve your problem because it's not— high rent is not your problem. A husband that you're not working with and you're not aligned with is your problem. So let's solve the real problem. Let's not go jumping around. Oh, I'm going to move to a cheaper house and act like that fixed something. It doesn't fix anything.

It feels like you're doing something though, Jamie. So I get why you're like that.

You're avoiding the actual issue.

You're grasping at the wrong thing. And the hard thing is you can't control him. You can control, you know, saving $250. That probably feels good. But the real problem is something you can't control, which is him. And so there's some big decisions that you guys are gonna have to make of what your life is gonna look like going forward.

If you keep doing what you've been doing, you're gonna keep getting what you've been getting in the marriage, in the careers, and the money. And so change all of it. Change the careers, change the money, or start working together and change the marriage issue. And that's how you— the definition of starting to win. The things that are broken have to be fixed, and it's not your rent.

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Natalie is in Oklahoma City. Hi, Natalie, how are you?

Hello, I'm doing fine. How are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

So I just got married on this Saturday. And, um, me and my partner had discussed being debt-free and paying all of our debts. And then once we got married and we had our first real discussion yesterday, he claimed that he's not letting go of the credit cards because he doesn't see them as debt, which I tried to explain to him and he said, I'm not giving them up. But in his eyes, he doesn't see it like that.

How long did you all date before you were married?

We got married a year, like within a year.

Did you guys talk?

We did it—

sorry, we did it for a year and then we got married like the 12th month.

Okay, so this was a conversation you guys had— what was it, yesterday?

Yeah, I let him know that, um, if we got, you know, because we talked about marriage, we're older, I'm 33, he's 31. So I told him when we got married that we would combine all, you know, follow Dave Ramsey, combine our finances until we were married and then start paying off debt. So yesterday I said we should start paying off your credit cards and then start on your, on your vehicle, and he's just like That's fine. I'm like, but you got to promise me not to use them again. And he said, no, I'm going to, because he doesn't see them as debt. And I tried to explain to him about—

Yeah, I think how— Yeah, more of the— Sorry.

Oh, go ahead. Go ahead.

Well, I was going to say more of the frustration is that he didn't keep his word. You know what I mean? That you guys had agreed on something.

And now he's changing his mind, essentially, which is frustrating because he doesn't see it as debt. And I'm like, anytime you owe anybody anything, it's considered debt. Those $200, $300 payments you're making towards the card, you can put in our savings. And he's like, well, it's for an emergency and this and that. So I don't— I'm trying to work the Baby Steps with my partner now. I don't have debt other than my mortgage. I'm kind of nervous combining our incomes together if he's not going to be on the program. Because I worked pretty hard to get out of debt and buy my home.

So what bothers me about this whole thing is not the detailed issue of whether he thinks credit cards are debt or not. I mean, that's just stupid. But the thing that bothers me is that you've married a guy that doesn't give a crap about your opinion. And can't keep his word, and that level of disrespect and dishonesty is going to be well beyond money issues. It's going to come up in other places too, you know. And, well, I just stopped by on the way home from the office, had one beer. Oh, you told me you're coming straight home for dinner. Oh, well, I just want beer, you know. I do whatever the heck I want to do because I'm me. That's what this guy is. And by the way, there's nothing wrong with stopping by and having a beer if you want, but don't do that and tell your wife you weren't— after you told your wife you weren't going to. And that's this guy. So that's my problem here, is, is the underlying lack of character and the underlying lack of respect for his new wife. Instead of treasuring you and wanting to serve you and love you, and be there for you.

He's all about, well, that's what I want to do. Yeah, sounds like he's 14 years old.

Yeah, because it's on his credit.

Yeah, no, it's not his now, it's ours. We got married Saturday, so now you're screwed up. Everything he screws up screws you up for the rest of your life as long as you're married. That's what's going to happen. So I mean, I, I think the core issue is, is that, that you guys have a a really weak relationship. That's what's bothering me a whole lot more than just whether or not credit card is dead or not. That's just a stupid statement. But the way he's coming at this is like, I told you I was going to do one thing, I changed my mind. I don't care what you think. This is what I want to do. And I don't like that. I don't care. It's what I want to do. And, you know, his— the way he's treating you is what's bothering me. So I don't want you to accept that. I want you to create a relationship crisis and call for marriage counseling immediately and see if you need to have this annulled or not. Because if the guy can't keep his word, and he can't treasure you and honor you, you're gonna have a long life, girl.

This is not a good— this is not a good start. So, I mean, I'm gonna create a— say, I'm gonna go see a marriage counselor because the guy I married promised me one thing, and now there's some other guy showed up here in my bed. And, you know, and so I'm gonna— I'm gonna create a crisis in this situation because he thinks this is all okay, that it's okay he does this. But he's 33, and he's been doing it a long time. Yeah, he's been a single dog a long time, gets to do whatever he wants to. Nobody— nobody around he had to consider up until a year ago.

Yeah, and until Saturday when y'all get married. So Yeah, the urgency of this, Natalie, is, I mean, I would. I would bring in a third party as soon as possible because if you let this linger, you guys will continue to create division in a new marriage that will continue on that way for a long time. And so, if you can get this straightened out, at least get on the same page of value systems and goals together, working together, right? Like the big stuff. And then you can start doing the, the tactical things of like, does he keep a credit card or not? But like the, the big idea of, hey, we are one together, and we are going to create a financial life that we both feel good about. That's what's key.

Yeah.

And that's, and that's what's broken. And that's like at the core of your marriage. Not that money's at the core of your marriage, but you're not agreeing about life. And you've been married 3 days.

Hello.

It's supposed to be the honeymoon phase. All right, Natalie, you got some— y'all got some work. I'm hopeful for y'all. I really am.

Well, it's— some things are gonna have to change or I'm not. So I'm hopeful that you force the change into this situation, uh, and I'm gonna have some— have some people experiencing some pain over there so that we don't live a lifetime of pain. Robert's in Tucson. Hi, Robert, how are you?

Hey, good afternoon. Can you hear me all right?

Yes, sir. What's up?

All right, uh, first off, I just want to say thank you for taking my call. Um, before I get into the finer details, my question is essentially if I have a good plan to prepare to exit the military in a few years.

Okay, when will you be leaving?

Uh, about 2 years, call it, uh, summer of 2028.

Okay, and what will you be doing? What's your career going to be?

Uh, so I would like to pursue getting an MBA full-time utilizing the GI Bill.

That's not a career.

Okay.

Um, what are you— what are you going to do for a living? What is it you want to do that's going to make you money and support you when the government's no longer writing you a check?

So after school, I'm interested in either consulting or investment banking.

Okay. Do you— and do you have— you have an undergraduate in business?

I do, sir.

Okay, so what I would be suggesting is you get lined up a job or a career field that you want to enter, and as you approach summer of '28, you line up a job that pays more than you make now, and you do your MBA as an adult MBA studying at night.

Okay, um, can I just give you some numbers to see if this is, uh, if that changes anything?

It doesn't. You still gotta go make a living.

What are your numbers, Robert? What is it?

Um, so I'm 26 years old. I'm single. I have no kids and I also have no debt. Uh, right now I'm making about $7,800 a month. Uh, my current net worth, my current net worth consists of about $60,000 in my TSP.

Good for you.

Um, about $200,000, about $285,000 in a taxable brokerage. Um, about 2.5 grand in a Roth IRA I recently opened.

Excellent.

About $4,000 in cash.

Okay, great.

So I mean, that's part of the reason why I'm emphasizing like going full-time, because I've spoken to other veterans in my situation. They say that the full-time program is—

it's not a full-time program. You know, an MBA, adult MBA at night is just as good, and you can get through it. And there's no reason for you to sit on that savings and burn it up just so you can be a student full-time. It's not a good plan. I would go get a job. That's what I would do. Hey guys, George Campbell here. Listen, we need to talk about your phone plan because for a lot of you, it's like a bad roommate. You know the one, unpredictable moods, always asking for money, hard to get rid of, and they never do the dishes. And that's what the so-called big wireless carriers are like. They're counting on you overpaying forever. But Boost Mobile flipped the script. You can unlock up to $600 in savings per year over the big guys when you switch to Boost Mobile on their unlimited plan. There's no contracts, no hidden fees, and no surprise emails saying, "Hey, your bill went up because reasons." You see, with Boost Mobile, you bring your phone, keep your number, and pay just $25 a month. $25, and that price is locked in forever. So if you're thinking, "Okay, George, that all sounds great.

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Well, tax season is upon us. If you want a free checklist and some free guides that'll help you when you file, go Go to ramseysolutions.com/taxes. Kendall is in Oklahoma City. Hi Kendall, how are you?

Hi, I'm good, how are you? Thank you for taking my call.

Sure, how can we help?

So I have a question. I have a mortgage that we got 2 years ago. We moved into our home. It was newly constructed. It went from a construction loan into a 10-year balloon. Oh no. I know, at 7.5%. And so I'm actually about to start nurse practitioner school this summer. And so we're looking at going ahead and refinancing now while the rates are lower. And we have a couple of different options that have been presented to us. And my husband and I are kind of having a disagreement. So we have gone through the Financial Peace University, but it was a few years ago. And so I know the answer is 30-year fixed.

15-year fixed.

Well, 15-year fixed, yes, but we haven't been given that option so far. The only option we have is, um, either a 5.25% 5-year ARM or a 6.5%—

15-year is 5.22% right now.

So we haven't gotten anybody to give us that.

Why?

I don't, I don't know why, because our credit is, is Really good.

Call Churchill Mortgage.

Churchill Mortgage.

Those are people we've endorsed for 30 years and they do it. They do 15-year fix for Ramsey listeners every day. Certainly in Oklahoma City, they do them for sure.

Yeah. So yeah, we'll, we'll do that then because that's, that's what we're— he's really leaning towards the 5.25% ARM. And I'm like, that does not sound good to me.

We're going out of the kitchen, jumping out of the fire into the frying pan or the frying pan into the fire. I mean, it's like, one dumb loan into another dumb loan. No, an adjustable rate's gonna tag you later. It's gonna give you all kinds of trouble. And a fixed rate 15-year is cheap as that right now. I'm looking at the screen right here where the rates are, and it says 5.22 right now, this week. So, yeah, and so, yeah, that's what— now obviously a 15-year payment is going to be more than your 30-year payment that that balloon is based on.

Right.

But it's not going to be that much more because you're saving 2% by refinancing.

Right, it'll be a little bit different, yeah.

Yeah, so what is your, what's your balance or the payoff?

So right now it's still at $229,000 as of our latest.

Okay, so it's like $4,500, let's call it $4,800, which is $400 a month in interest savings by refinancing from 7.2% to 5.2%. Okay, and so, you know, roughly $400 a month, not quite, but almost $400 a month that your interest rate goes down. But then when you switch to a 15-year, it's going to go up. And so you're probably going to see an increase of $100 or $200 a month, but you're going to be in a much better long-term plan.

Right.

And, and with you going, you said you're going to nursing school?

Uh, nurse practitioner. Yeah.

Oh really?

Okay.

That's awesome. Good for you.

Thank you. I'm excited, but it's definitely the second half of the program. I will have to go part-time. So right now we make about equal, but when I go part-time—

What's your household income?

So right now, um, we're making about, let's see, I make about $4,400. He makes about, um, probably close to about $4,000 a month for him.

So we make about $150,000 a year roughly. Okay.

Yeah, about $150,000 a year.

And then when you graduate, it's going to go way up.

Yeah.

So way to go. I love it. Congratulations. Yes, it's worth it to bite the bullet and put a little strain on right now to get the right kind of mortgage in place and get rid of the high interest rate and the balloon, but don't jump from the frying pan into the fire.

Yeah, and make sure you guys are planning out, Kendall, when you go part-time, that you guys have money saved, that if you need to, whether it's shifting lifestyle or have some money that's supplementing during that year or two that you have where you have to go part-time. So just be thinking about that.

Yeah, plan that out. Plan out how we're gonna eat during that time.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Good, good question. Way to go. Well, you win the argument and Churchill Mortgage can help you guys with that process. I promise you. Jeremy's in Kansas City. Hi, Jeremy. How are you?

Hey, not too bad.

Good. How can we help?

I need some advice on how to build some funds while in steps 4, 5, and 6.

Okay. What are the funds for?

Uh, well, we've got, um, I need to set aside money for a truck replacement or truck repairs in the future. I just replaced the truck, so a lot of that has been wiped out and I need to rebuild that fund. Uh, we also need some house repairs like painting the outside of the house, replacing some carpet. Um, I would like to have some retained earnings with my business. And how do I do all of that while also putting money in retirement and extra money towards the house? I'm trying to do a lot of different stuff and I'm not sure how to break it all up.

Okay, well, start with— we'll go with Baby Steps 4, 5, and 6, which is where you are. You don't have any debt except the house, right?

Correct.

Good. Okay. So we're going to do 15% of your income into retirement and something extra on the house. I don't know how much depending on where all of these other things fall. When you start doing a detailed written plan, and we suggest using the EveryDollar app because that will help you do it the easiest, it has built into it the ability for you to have categories where you're setting money aside for upcoming expenses. And so you set money aside for upcoming home repairs, you set money aside for an upcoming replacement of a truck. However, I kind of think the way I heard this, the truck might be your business.

Right.

Is this like you drive truck for a living?

Well, I own a lawn care company.

Oh, okay, okay. But the truck itself is not your daily driver, it's what you use to pull the lawn mowers around?

Yep. Well, that's pretty much the only time I leave the house is to do, uh, lawn care. And then if we go anywhere else, we usually take my wife's car.

Yeah, okay. Well, the thing, the thing is the, um I mean, the work truck could easily be coming out of your work budget, and your work retained earnings should be at the office, separate issue. So out of your profits, you set some aside for retained earnings, and that could be for equipment replacement of all kinds, mowers, weed eaters, whatever, down at the office, so to speak, and that's separate from your home budget. And then when you make a profit after having retained earnings and after having paid your taxes, you bring that money home and put that money, once a month is fine, into your checking account. And then on your personal, you would begin to set aside sinking funds. And Rachel, the EveryDollar app does a good job with the sinking funds, right?

It does. It's not my favorite function, honestly, because we have a function called Goals in the EveryDollar, and I like the Goals better because it gives you an end date. So you can look, Jeremy, and say, okay, we want to have X amount saved for home repairs because we want to do some, you know, different things around the house. And we want to have that by December. And so that— the goals part of EveryDollar, that function, I like better than like the sinking funds function personally, because it gives you that end date and it calculates out how much you need to be saving per month. And then it goes into that goals fund.

Which is, in a sense, a sinking fund.

Yeah, the sinking fund in EveryDollar, the way it's It's laid out for me. I just personally don't, I don't like it as much. I like the goals category. Yeah, but it's the same idea. It's just like having an end date versus an ongoing fund. And so I like having an end date. So you guys, yep, kind of watch that build up.

So you say, okay, I want $6,000 to do a home repair.

That's right.

And I wanna do it in 1 year. That's $500 a month.

That's right. And so, and then EveryDollar carries it each month over. So it's—

And builds up.

Yeah, it's very, very, very easy. So if you hold on the line, Jeremy, Christian will pick up and we'll get you a year of EveryDollar 'Cause you'll be able to like lay it out and actually see it. And it's great. But if you have things that are ongoing, you can use the sinking funds, that function. But I love the goals in EveryDollar. I think that's my favorite personally.

00:30:36

Yeah, guys, when you are gonna win at anything, you have to do it very intentionally and you have to do it on paper before the month begins. So even like when you're getting married, if you wanna win at marriage, you need to do pre-marriage counseling and plan how to be married. Your probability of success goes way up. When you plan your money, your probability of success goes way up. When you plan your career, your probability of success goes way up. If you're at the point where you think bankruptcy is your only option, stop for a minute. You might have another way out. Guardian Litigation Group. Most debt relief programs sell you on the illusion of protection, but a crappy legal plan tacked on as an upsell doesn't actually defend you when you get sued. It just leaves you confused and exposed. Guardian is different. They're not some call center. They're real attorneys. And with Guardian, you're assigned an attorney from day one. That means if your creditor sues, you're not scrambling and you're not hit with surprise legal fees. Now listen, I'm always going to tell you the best way out of debt is the old-fashioned way.

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Hi, I'm good. How are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

Well, I had a recent notice received from the IRS for tax debt from a year when I was married to my former spouse. I was unaware of this tax debt because I thought it had been addressed. And I run a really tight budget and I have my debt snowball very planned. And I'm wondering if I pivot from that to take care of this tax debt, uh, because it had that notice of lien. It hasn't been— there has not been a lien yet.

And I realized how much is it?

It's $7,900.

What do you make?

I make $132,000. Okay.

And, uh, what year is this from?

2018.

Okay. And you were obviously married then and you filed married filing jointly that year?

Yes.

Okay. And, um, you were not aware that the taxes were not paid?

That's correct. We had settled in 2020 and the equitable distribution required that he pay that. And now he's incarcerated. So I think that his payment plan has ceased and they're coming after me for it.

Okay.

I'm not positive if this will work, but before you decide to pay it, I want you to get in touch with one of our tax professionals at RamseySolutions.com that we endorse, the Ramsey Trusted. And I want you to ask, and I want you to tell them every detail of the situation and see if you qualify. For a thing called the innocent spouse. Okay? So an example would be, and this sounds like it qualifies, but I'm not, you know, without getting into every stinking detail, I'm not positive. And even if we did, I'm not sure I would know. But the innocent spouse provision of the IRS Code sounds like this. A good example would be me. Okay, my wife is a full-time mom. I have a business, and we do married filing jointly. The number of minutes or hours she spends looking at our tax return is precisely 3.5 seconds. Okay, so she signs it and assumes that me and the tax people that we're using know what the flip we're doing, right? And then later on a tax bill comes up, and then she gets a notice in the mail like you did. Okay, well, obviously she didn't have anything to do with it, and so she could file under the innocent spouse provision and say, "Yeah, we filed married filing jointly.

Yes, I did sign the return, but I have no working knowledge of that stupid business or that stupid man." Okay, and so I'm innocent of this tax bill. And they will take it off of you and send it to him. And of course, he's incarcerated, so they're not going to get paid. But that doesn't matter. What matters is, is it comes off of you. I think you're going to qualify for that.

Okay.

Based on what you told me. You see what I'm— you see why? Because this is the thing. A, he was supposed to take care of it. And B, it was a long— well, long ago. But, but the circumstances were that you had no knowledge that the bills were not being taken care of properly and you signed the return.

Correct.

And that, that's why I'm thinking you're going to qualify for this innocent spouse provision, which is an $8,000 switch in this conversation. So that's the first thing I want you to do, because I'm like 80-90% sure you're getting out of this.

Okay.

Now, if you don't, let's go back to your question. If I'm wrong, okay, then what do we do with the $7,900? We put it at the top of the list. We pay it off as soon as you can.

Okay, now my debt snowball—

it goes to the top of the debt snowball. Okay, and you knock it out as fast as you possibly can, or you go borrow $8,000 from the credit union and pay it off and then put that in the debt snowball. I don't care which, but you get rid of the IRS. You do not want these people in your life. They have unlimited power, no brains, and they charge all kinds of penalties and interest minute by minute by minute as you go along.

Yeah, it's the one exception of the debt snowball, Sarah. We always say if there is IRS debt, it gets moved to the very front.

Okay, okay, that was my question.

And, or I would refinance it on a credit card or down to credit union, one of the two. Okay, get it cleared off, but don't put it on an IRS payment plan unless you have no other options, and then put it at the top of your debt snowball. Okay, I sure hope I'm right about the other thing though, don't you?

I certainly do. I didn't know that existed. Um, I do feel it was, it was definitely out of left field, um, because I've been doing quite well on my own with 4 kids, but that kind of threw me for a loop.

Oh, it's so frustrating, Sarah. I'm sorry.

So you make $130,000 a year doing what?

I am a regional asset manager.

What is he in jail for?

Oh gosh.

Embezzlement.

No way. That makes the story even better about you being an innocent spouse.

It sure does.

The embezzlement boy is in jail. I mean, wow. That's got like drama on it. That's so— I'm so sorry y'all been through that. And he's the father of your 4 kids?

Yes, sir.

I'm so sorry. How old are you?

I'm 41.

Man, you've been through some hell, but you are strong. You are strong and you are smart. I'm proud of you.

Thank you. Doing the best I know how to do to take care of these kids, and God is good. And so we're just trying to make sure I honor him with the next right decision.

You are. But you've been very, very wise and very, very—

uh, wow, that's hard.

That's amazing. Amazing. Yeah, yeah, go, go to our folk and they'll help you. I think— I'm pretty sure that's going to work. Hey, you know, sometimes this free advice around here is valuable.

Could save her $8,000.

There you go.

Glad she called in. Yeah, sending all the good vibes your way, Sarah.

Charge a commission.

Yeah.

All right, Jason's in New York. Hi Jason, what's up with you?

Hey Dave, how's it going, boss man?

Better than I deserve. What's up with you?

I need your opinion, boss. Uh, I'm dealing with a situation at work, uh, and I just wanted to see, uh, your expert opinion. Because I feel like I'm spinning my wheels. On paper, I have the dream job. I make $47 an hour. It's unlimited overtime. We have a pension, 401(k), benefits, health insurance, everything. And every time I explain my situation to other people, they like, "Oh, you a fool. I would never quit that job. I don't care what happened. I'll never quit." But I'm being isolated at work. I'm in a union environment. And every time I try to learn something new to progress, because of the union, I had to come to a department that I didn't really have a lot of experience in, which is dealing with the boilers in the powerhouse. Traditionally, my background comes from laboratory analytical environment. So dealing with instrumentation in the lab, clean room environments like centrifuges, incubators, blah, blah, blah. But because of the union, I had to come to this new environment where I'm dealing with boilers and I thought, okay, all of these old technicians have been here for years. I'm not going to have no problems.

They're gonna pair me up with this guy, I'm gonna be going around learning things. That never happened. My manager never did any of that.

Yeah, they're trying to do as little work as possible. Yeah, okay. Well, here's the thing.

Here's the thing.

You need to be doing what you're designed to do, and it's not that. But you also can't do that rashly because you're getting paid very well.

Yes, sir.

And so, so, but I wouldn't use that as an excuse to stay stuck. But I would say, okay, what classes have I got to take on the side? What have I got to learn to be able to move into a field that I love with people that are, you know, easier to work with, more fun to work with, and I'm learning, and I make $50 an hour? You know, and so what's the target? And if it takes 3 years to work to that target, okay. But yeah, if you just walk out and quit and go make $20 an hour, no, that's not smart. So I'm gonna stay where I am and use that—

We're looking for an exit plan, though.

I'm gonna stay where I am and use that wonderful income to fund my exit.

Yes, sir.

That makes sense. So when you're working with lab stuff, if you were in a non-union environment, that sounds like something that would be paying in the $50 range to me.

Yes, sir, it would. And I would probably love it. I thought that this job was going to be it. I thought I was going to retire here, but yeah.

So I mean, could you walk straight into that, or would you have to tool up to walk into that?

I can walk straight into it. I've had also—

if you've got an offer at $50 an hour, quit and go take the $50.

But it was a— the only reason I turned it down, Dave, because it was a contract assignment. It wasn't full-time.

Okay, well then you just hadn't found the one yet. But yeah, design your exit that's sweeter than where you are and exit. Statistics show that half of Americans don't have enough life insurance, or they don't have any at all. I don't understand this, John. Why don't people want to take care of their family? They think they're going to die or something?

Well, I used to be one of those guys.

I didn't even think about it, and one of my buddies said, hey, The only reason to not have life insurance is if you hate your wife and kids.

And I immediately went and got term life insurance.

That's a gut punch.

And oh, you're telling me. And for decades, Dave, I've sat across people who've lost a spouse.

They've lost somebody important to them.

Me too.

They don't know what to do next.

Me too. I mean, you're going to have a crisis here. And, you know, you got two options while you're sitting and talking to a young widow. She's concerned about how she's going to invest all this money properly and not mess this up. Up, or she's concerned how she's going to eat tomorrow. That's exactly the two options. And take care of your dadgum family.

Term life insurance can replace income, pay off debts, cover funeral expenses, so your family can actually have the opportunity to just be sad.

Yeah, to just miss you. That's exactly what it's supposed to be. It's saying I love you to your family. Term life insurance. Jeff Zander and the team at Zander Insurance makes it easy and affordable. I've used them personally for 25 years. They're the only people I trust. Go to zander.com or call 800-356- 1-866-4282. Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. Rachel Cruz, Ramsey personality, number one bestselling author. My daughter is my co-host today. Mike is in Madison, Wisconsin. Hey Mike, how are you?

Hi Dave, thanks for taking my call.

Sure, what's up?

Hey, so, um, I have been listening to you for a couple years. I'm just starting to get serious now about the Baby Steps. I'm on Baby Step number 2 right now, and I want to get— I want to get gazelle intense. I want to get my debt paid off. I want to get out of debt, but I don't— I can't really do any side work right now, and I can't really afford to make anything but bare minimum payments. Um, So my question is, why can't you do any side work? Um, I was in a motorcycle accident back in September, so any of the skills I have outside of my normal, um, job, I'm not really capable of doing right now.

Are you able to do your job?

Yeah, so I, I work in sales right now, um, so I have, I have a desk job, which is no big deal, um, But any of my skills outside of that I could use to make more money or more so like working on vehicles, doing yard work, handyman kind of stuff like that.

Okay, so that's off the table, but lots of other side hustles. I mean, side hustles aren't all blue collar.

I'm aware of that. I just don't know what else to— what other side hustle I could take up other than that. Gotcha.

So what's your question about?

Yeah, so I got a, I got a pretty decent-sized tax return this year. It's about $4,400, and I can start up my own side business basically off of that. So I want to know if it's a smart idea to do that and get some extra income rolling in through doing that, or if I should just take the $4,400 and pay down some more of the debt.

What's the business?

The business would be like a trailer rental business. So people would kind of like a glorified U-Haul, essentially. You rent out a trailer for when people need it, kind of.

No, I wouldn't do that. I don't mind the idea of taking a little bit of the $4,400 and using it to get something started, but it's more let's just get your side hustle going as something that's white-collar. But the problem is you could put this $4,400 into a trailer and it never rents one time. That's— and that's very possible, actually. So you've got to consider all your downsides, all the possible negative scenarios. And if they don't work, then this idea doesn't work.

So—

but if you had an idea that you said, okay, I'm going to take $400 or $500 of the $4,400 and I'm going to get something going that I'm going to immediately— the first month I'm going to make $500 back, or I'm going to make $1,000 back. Immediately, and worst case is I burn the $500. Well, that, that's, you know, we could try that, but this is a lot. Of course, the other thing is you need to adjust your W-2 because you don't need to be getting a tax return that high, right?

I've been, I've been listening to your show a lot and I've heard you say that a bunch. I was curious what you were gonna say when I said I got that big of a tax return.

I know you weren't, you knew what I was gonna say. You need to adjust your W-4 so that I'm not your W-2, your W-4. So that, um, yeah.

Mike, how much debt do you have?

Um, I have $12,000 in one car. Um, I have $7,000 in another car. Um, about $35,000.

What's that?

Are you married?

Yes, I'm married.

Oh, what does she make?

Uh, she makes about $1,000 a month. She's our church secretary.

Do you guys have kids?

No, no kids.

I wonder if she could be doing something for more than $1,000 a month. How many hours does she work?

Um, right now, uh, she just bumped her hours up to about— I think it's gonna be 32 a week.

Okay, this is an absolutely horrendous job.

It's a sweet job. We do love church secretaries.

We love church secretaries, but we shouldn't be— we shouldn't be abusing them by underpaying them. So, um, no, she needs to go get a job where she makes 3 times that immediately. What do you make?

Okay, um, I make $77,000 a year.

Okay, and, and in sales, and that's a— that's your base, or, um, I am, I am straight salary.

I don't make commission in sales, correct?

Yes.

Okay. All right.

How long you been selling?

Um, I've, I've been in sales for probably since I just got out of high school, and I've been with this company for about a year.

Are you good at it?

Yeah, I think, I think so.

Well, I wonder if there's a job opportunity, because when you're commission-based—

Selling something else, selling something else on the side that's not competitive. Selling is selling, and I mean, if there's someone you could work for on the weekends selling and it's a product or a service that you're excited about and that you think is valuable, you know, you could probably make as much as you're making now on your side hustle if you got into something that was sweet and you, again, that you believe in and it's a high-quality product, a good value, and, you know, you can make the calls on the weekends or evenings. Man, you can run your income way up as a side hustle. That's what I would do instead of buying a trailer, putting it in the yard, and hope somebody rents it. That definitely would go do that. And really, she's being very severely underpaid.

We said she just bumped up her hours to 32, so she may have just been doing 20.

Still severely underpaid. $24,000 a year, nobody dancing in the streets. I'm just saying. So, you know, that if she was— true, if she's making $2,000 a month because she's working half-time, the equivalent— yeah, that's still, still not—

yeah. And those admin skills, see if there's like a dentist office or something, you know, and you could go and do some admin or, you know, whatever, just something creative with those skills that, yeah, easily could be making double.

We have assistants and admins and people all through the building, and we don't have anyone making anywhere near that low an income. Not even close. We wouldn't be able to attract anybody if we did. So yeah, I think that's— where I would go. Wow, wow. Riley is in Maryland. Hi Riley, how are you?

Good, how are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

So my husband and I are expecting our first baby.

Yay!

We're very excited. I am really anxious to get to Baby Step 6. Good. Um, I, so technically we're in Baby Step 2. We have a $10,000 car loan on this Russell note alone. Um, and we do have that in our savings. We actually have about $43,000 in our savings plus, um, $19,000 in a CD.

And do you have any debt other than the car?

No, that's, uh, no credit card debt.

What would be wrong with paying it off today?

Um, I feel—

I think I remember hearing you say before that when you're pregnant and you're broke, but you're not broke, you have $70,000.

Okay.

And if you pay off $10,000, you'll have $60,000. Yeah, I think you're okay.

And then you're gonna go on to Baby Step 4 tomorrow because your Baby Step 3 is done.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, y'all are doing great.

Yeah, you need to have Baby Step 3 covered if you're in stork mode. Which is where you are. But you're there. I mean, you write a check, you're debt-free, you allocate the rest of this, some of the rest of this money for your emergency fund, and then you've got some leftover.

Yeah, we do say when you are expecting it on Baby Step 2 to pause everything and stockpile money because that's what we assume you only have Baby Step 1 done and you just have $1,000, which you want more of that, more money when you're having a baby. But you guys have plenty of savings, so you're good.

Because you're not really working the Baby Steps, you're working your plan, and we're going to change it it and put you on our plan.

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Hey, how are you, Dave? Thanks for having me on. Sure, how can we help? So I recently went, I'm a lawyer, and I recently went on my own professionally. I'm 30 years old. And during that time, you know, I was exploring kind of other things because I had a little bit of downtime. And I applied to be on a popular political debate show on YouTube. And I didn't think I would actually be asked to go on it, but then I was, uh, and then realizing that I still have a lot to learn professionally, I, you know, was speaking to somebody and they are basically now I've done 3 rounds of interviews to get a job at this other law firm. And now they're both happening at the same time. And I'm kind of concerned that that if I go and I do this political debate show, that they will not want to hire me or retract an offer or something because, you know, I say something that they disagree with. So I was wondering if you had any—

you want to work with someone that has a different value system than you?

Well, no.

Um, I mean, if they withdraw the offer because they disagree with you, they have a different value system than Yeah, that's true.

Um, but I guess really the reason that I called is because, you know, we're, uh, expecting our first child and, you know, I want to have a regular income, you know what I mean? So it feels like, you know, should I, you know, if I agree with some of their values but not other of their values, do you know what I mean? And so it's just kind of like, I'm, yeah, a little bit worried about it.

No, I mean, let me just give you an example, okay? Let's just make up an example. Let's say that you went on a debate show and, uh, you agreed with everything in the Biden administration, and you're left-leaning or a progressive or whatever we want to label that, and you take that position on the debate, and somebody says, "Oh, I wouldn't ever hire anybody that does that because I'm a pro-Trump guy," you don't want to work there anyway. You'd be miserable.

Yeah, yeah, I think that you're right, and don't worry, that's not what I'd be saying.

Well, I don't care.

I don't care.

It works both ways, right? It works both ways. And so—

Or I'll say this, though, is that to have an employer— I mean, I guess if it was— I guess something that you would disagree with, because I'm like, I know our team, we have 1,000 people, and we all don't— we're not all on the same political spectrum. I mean, there's people that vote all different ways here. And so, we would never fire someone for that. I'm kidding. Oh, Lord, thank you. Yes, yes.

No, we would not fire someone for their political— and we would not not hire you No, because we saw a YouTube thing.

But I also, Josh, would not— I don't know if it's that big of a gamble because I don't know from a law perspective. I don't know what that entails in that career. I wouldn't put my career in jeopardy though, in general, right? For a YouTube show.

Yeah, for real.

So there's a part of me that I'm like—

That's a good point too. But, you know, so no, I'm—

From like a legal perspective, I don't know what you would—

No, I don't think I'm not worried about the law. It's a matter of, you know, But here's the thing, if you have someone that you ascertain is so extreme on one side or the other that they will not entertain someone that thinks differently than them, and they don't want to, you don't want to work there anyway.

That's right, that's right.

And so, I mean, we laugh and say, Rachel and I graduated from Tennessee, and we laugh and say we've accidentally hired a few Alabama fans. I mean, so, but you know, I mean, but— Oh, wait a minute, there's Bobby, he's got his Alabama hat right there in the booth right now. And so we hired him anyway, and he's been here like, God, a decade or more. We just now discovered he's an Alabama guy.

Ah, get it off the camera.

But that's the thing. That's the kind of thing— that's the way we think about it around here is we're not going to all get in a big fight, and we're not going to all spend our lives being mad about that. And so I don't want to work for a firm, lawyer or otherwise, that feels that way. On the other hand, aside from that, I also don't know what the upside is. What is gained by going on this? There's more— there's all downside and no upside.

Yeah.

What do you get for doing it? Are they giving you $200,000 to appear? No. You know, and you're putting a digital tattoo out into the world that you're going to have to live with.

And we know how that feels. That's our job.

Yeah, we put a digital tattoo out there. Stay away.

No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

Yeah, no, I mean, it's—

but something that polarizing in today's world, I'm like, I don't know.

Why?

Just not worth it.

You know, I mean, like, for instance, during the presidential election, we reached out to Kamala Harris's camp and offered to interview her, and we also reached out to President Trump's camp and offered to interview him. She declined, and he took us up on it, and we did the Trump interview. And I endorsed Trump, but he's not Jesus. I don't worship at his feet, which also upsets the Trumpers. So, you know, I mean, golly, some of you people really need to slow down a notch. But that's kind of who I would want to be around, in other words. And so somebody that's willing to listen to both sides, kind of curious, and I like debates and that kind of stuff. But really, it's got nothing to do with your career. That had to do with my career. It had to do with the Ramsey brand and what we're doing here. And you know, this is what we do for a living. But what you're doing for a living is law. And doing this has nothing to do with that, so there's no upside. So I probably wouldn't do it for that reason. So yeah, there's no upside.

You know, I remember the first time I heard something like that, Rachel, that line of thinking, that decision-making paradigm. I was in a sales class. I was 18 years old. And now, this is 1978.

Oh, take us back, Dave.

Okay? No, I mean, it's a different world. There were not non-smoking sections.

Oh, yeah.

There was just not non-smoking. Every restaurant you could smoke in.

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Every airplane.

That was into the '90s.

Every plane, every airplane you could smoke in.

Okay?

So, smoking was— like today, nobody does smoke. I mean, it's unusual to see somebody with a cigarette today. But in those days, everybody smelled like cigarette smoke. But that guy in that sales thing, he said, "Okay, how many of you smoke?" Most people raised their hands. I didn't smoke. I never have, but I'm not mad about it. I just never did. And he said, "How many people smoke?" And a bunch of people raised their hand. He goes, "How many people in here think you've made a sale because you smoked?" No one raised their hand. He said, "How many of you think you might have lost a sale because you smoked?" Bunch of people raise their hand. That's a valid thing.

Because someone that doesn't smoke doesn't want to be around them, smell like it or something?

So, the point is there's only downside, there's no upside. Same thing here. What are you gonna— what good is gonna come of this other than you get to voice your opinion and have the thrill and the fun of a debate?

I was gonna say, have a moment of kind of an ego thing of like, "Oh, that's cool. They asked me to be on this panel." Yeah, I probably would pass. I would too. And you have a new baby coming, Josh, too. You know what I mean? So, I'm like, just enjoy your life. Don't muddle it.

I would not turn down the debate because of future employment, though. I would turn it down because I don't know if there's—

I don't see an upside. Yeah, that's fair.

I don't see any upside.

That's fair.

That's why I would turn it down. And I'm tying back to what you said a minute ago. That's how I got on that.

Yep. Side note, did you watch— did y'all watch the JFK Love Story? The series? Anyways, based in the '90s, obviously, because JFK Jr., it's about when he died. Anyways, they are smoking all through that series. But I reminded— I was like, it's so '90s.

Like, you know?

Really?

Okay.

Yes.

Yes.

I remember when they had no smoking sections, which I always thought was funny. Yes. Like the smoke couldn't jump across the section.

Smoking in the restaurants and stuff, and I was like, it's like you can't—

it's the same stupid thing. It's like you couldn't go down the aisle in the grocery store because a little COVID might jump on you. It was the same, same dumb thing. It's like it's in the air. The smoke is in the air. It's going over the whole restaurant.

Smoke break. I'll be back.

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Today's question comes from Samantha in Wisconsin. She said, my husband has two daughters and I have two sons from previous marriages. We married later in life when our kids were already adults. How do we structure our wills to make sure that the living spouse is taken care of first, but the children still get their fair share when the spouse passes? We want to ensure that our kids are left with their share of each parent's estate, but we also don't want the surviving spouse to lose any assets. Would getting a life insurance policy for the value of 50% of assets be a good option to leave to leave to our individual children so both sides get a fair inheritance?

Oh. I would not do life insurance.

No?

No.

What you can do is pretty simple, and you need to sit down with an estate planning attorney, and you got to map out the numbers as much as the concept. But often what we see people do in this situation is, the money is left in a trust. The terms of the trust are that the surviving spouse gets to live out of and use the trust. Upon death, the trust is split into the two trusts, or you could have two trusts at death, either one, and both of them are designed to support the surviving spouse, and then upon death of that spouse, then each of the— your 2 kids get theirs, yours, his 2 kids get his, and so forth. So you can just— and if it's in a trust, it can't go anywhere. So if in a worst-case scenario— so let's just say, okay, you've amassed between the 2 of you $1 million in a 401(k), okay, and you die. That money's left into a trust. And the money— and your wife is left behind, she gets the benefit of that trust as long as she's alive. And so she gets the income off of it, and she's allowed to use the money under certain circumstances other than just the income— medical event or something like that.

And the house could go into a trust and go into the same trust. Everything could go into that same trust, and she gets to use all of that while she's alive. So, if that million dollars creates a, you know, $100,000 a year income, she gets to use all that. And she could use some of the million if under certain circumstances that you decide in the trust. But she can't just change and decide, "I'm gonna leave the whole million to my kids and cut out your kids." Could she use all the million and there's nothing left for the kids? I think, well, if you put it in the trust that she was able to use it, she could use it up. But But if you left the value of the house in there and the money in there in one lump sum, and she's got the benefit of that, she's gonna be fine, or you've got the benefit, you're gonna be fine. Even if she remarried, okay, she still only gets the benefit of that and is bound by the terms of the trust. She can't— if it's only in a will, she could change the will and say, "I'm not gonna leave it to the kids." But upon the death of this in this scenario, the dad, his grown kids don't get anything until the wife dies.

Exactly.

Okay.

Exactly. Or you could say they get half, $200,000, and the rest of it goes into a trust.

And then when she dies, they get the rest of it.

Exactly. They get their portion of the rest of it. But the trust cannot be undone by the surviving spouse. Like they get remarried, and the new stepfather is a jerk, and he wants to scarf all the money and open a pizza place, right, or something. And he uses up all your inherit— the kids' inheritance. Inheritance, then it's all stepfather scam artist guy, right? And so, you got a Cinderella story, right? And not the good part, the evil stepmother's part of Cinderella, right? So, if you've got all— if it's just in a will, she could change the will and cut out the guy's kids that died. But if it's all set up in a trust, it's very difficult to do that. So, I think you can sit down and just say, "Okay, what are the terms of the trust? How much goes into the trust?" trust. And the terms could easily be, you get to live off the income, and you can use some of the principal for various reasons. And so forth. And be very careful about crazy stuff in there, because it comes back to bite you. It doesn't age well. Like, 30 years later, the crazy thing just looks like crazy.

30 months later, it's kind of like, oh, I kind of understand why he did that. But so here's an example. Okay, they're 50 years old, and he dies. And she's got the house in a trust, but she can never sell the house. That would be crazy. Because she's gonna live till 80, 30 freaking years. The house is already 20 years old. So you're gonna have her in a 50-year-old house? No, she needs to be able to sell that house. But if she does, the replacement house has to go into the trust or something like that. But you see, you have to give it some flexibility in there for that person. You can never do— that stuff doesn't age Well, you know, you look out there 30 years and you've got a mess on your hands. But the answer to the overall question is get with an estate planner, and I think you can fix all of this with a trust or trusts, however you want to set it up. And that, that's a good way to get at it. John's in Myrtle Beach. Hey John, how are you?

I'm good. I appreciate you guys taking, uh, taking my call today.

Thank you.

Sure.

Um, so I, I have a, an issue, uh, difficult time talking finances with my fiancée without it, you know, turning somewhat emotional. So I'm looking for good practical suggestions and how I can, you know, inspire her to kind of look at money differently along with me. You know, don't get me wrong.

How old are y'all?

35.

Is the wedding set, the date?

No, sir, it's not. And part of the reason is is I, I'd like to have the same money goals, or at least similar enough that this won't be an ongoing fight.

Yeah, it needs to be, or don't get married. Yeah, because it's the number one— it's the number one cause of divorce. It's the number one cause of marriage misery, is constantly being at odds with your spouse.

Yeah. What, what is she, um, what, what does the fight look like? What's the conflict look like? What do you bring up and what does she push back against?

Sure. Um, so I, I've been having at the Baby Steps on my end with my debt. And, um, you know, I'll ask her sometimes, you know, um, how's your credit cards looking? Have you been paying on them? Um, you know, what's your contribution to the household going to be like soon? Um, because I take all the response. We have— we do live together. We've been together 10 years. We've been together a long time. We do have 2 kids. Um, so more or less we're married. We just haven't done the paperwork. Work. Um, but, uh, so as we, as we start to discuss these things and I start to ask her questions, she, she gets emotional, she gets upset. Um, almost as if— well, I, I think she feels guilty. Um, and, and I'm not sure, but she does get upset sometimes. She'll cry, and we don't, we don't yell or bicker back and forth. I just think that she feels a little guilty. Um, and, and habits are hard to break, and maybe she, uh, she may feel that that I have resentment maybe towards her, which I don't, but, uh, and I try to be careful with how I speak to her and things.

And, um, but, uh, it becomes difficult to have the conversations when she's upset, so usually the conversation kind of dies at that point.

Oh man. Okay, well, the reality is, yeah, you— I mean, you guys are— you have two kids together, you've been living together for 10 years, you're married. So, so regardless, we can't— yeah, we can't get on the same page or not. You are. So like, just go ahead and tie it on. It's —hitting somebody.

Yeah, it's happening.

So, then, what I would dig into, Josh, is number one, the way you're phrasing the questions is a lot of pointing at her. You know, "What are you doing? Are you paying on the bill? You, you, you, you." It needs to be back on you, John, of, "Hey, here's what I'm feeling. This is the story that I'm making up in my head that you feel like that there's resentment towards me. I'm making up a story that you," you are shut down emotionally, and if I press any harder in the conversation, you're gonna continue to shut down and we're not gonna get anywhere. Like, right? Like, to be able to explain where you are is gonna be really, really important in this. And she's gotta, I mean, girl, she's 35 too? Yeah. Okay, we gotta either get into like a good counselor and dig some of all that stuff up of what's going on, but her way of doing it having conflict, uh, not, not great. Not great.

So I would suggest good pre-marriage counseling just now, and, and, or marriage counseling, and get married immediately. I mean, quit it. Jeez, man. Raven is in Raleigh, North Carolina. Hi Raven, how are you?

I'm good, how are you? Better than I deserve.

What's up? So my mom is financially irresponsible and depends financially on her mom, um, and I'm just kind of worried that at some point she's going to be depending on me. How do I kind kind of prepare for that and set boundaries when I need to about it.

How old are you? I'm 22. Okay.

I wouldn't worry about it right now. Okay. I really wouldn't. I just, I'd worry about something else. There's other stuff to worry about. How old is your mother?

Yeah. Um, she's about 50. Okay. She doesn't work? Yeah. No, she doesn't work at all.

Is she married?

No. No.

Um, is she, is she disabled in some way?

So she, um, she says she is having like an undiagnosed disability, so she hasn't been able to get it diagnosed or, you know, get disability for it. Um, so, um, hey, don't laugh.

Is it like, like a, like a, uh, like a— no, no, no, I'm telling Dave not to laugh, Raven. You can laugh about it.

I'm sorry, I, I just thought— I thought we called that lazy.

Is it like an immune disorder?

Like what it is? Okay. Autoimmune disease.

That could be real. Okay. So anyway, back, back to your question. No, I am. I'm very suspect of that, to say the least. The— I think the thing is this. Number one, I would pick up Henry Cloud's book Boundaries. And read it. And that begins to teach you and prepare you intellectually for how, how difficult it's going to be to set boundaries with her. No one has ever told her no. Yeah. And you're going to be the first one, and it's going to be real difficult. Okay. So I just want you to go build a wonderful life for you. And then if you've got millions of dollars and you want to help her out with some groceries or something, that's fine. But what you don't want to do is to take her on as your responsibility, because she's not your responsibility. She's a 50-year-old woman that won't work, okay? And so, and so, and she had every opportunity to do that, and that's what you're observing. You called it financially a responsibility. You didn't call it a medical issue. And so, and you were right. So, um, anyway, when the time comes and you have to set a boundary, I'm going to go ahead and tell you it's going to be one of the most painful things you've ever done in your life.

Yeah, because anyone that tells your mother no does not get a good reaction from your mother.

No. And her— my grandma's coming up on age, and we've all kind of had that discussion, so I So I'm feeling like it's going to come up pretty close, and I don't know.

Well, I mean, when your granny passes and your mom has to figure out how to do life, you're just going to have to tell your mom, "I'm 23, and I can't do this for you. You're like the old woman. You're supposed to figure this out. I can't do it." Today, you don't have the option of helping her. You don't have the money. But let's say it's 10 years from now, and you're 32, and you— but you and you've put together $1 million listening to the stuff we teach, and you're able to help, but still you don't— you're not required to help, you still are going to have to tell her no. In any case where she actually has to take responsibility for her life, she's going to be unhappy with the people that tell her that. So that's the thing I want to prepare you for. There is no trick phrase. There is no amount of money. There is no angle or strategy that you can take that's going to make her not be pissed. There's a 100% chance your mom's gonna be pissed. So you might as well get ready for that, okay? The only way she's not gonna be is if you become as dysfunctional as your grandmother and you take in this woman who won't work and you continue to feed her and take care of her and she does to do nothing more.

And she walks around whining, acting like there's something wrong with her and there's not. She just lays And so that is a disability, but it's a different kind. And so that's what you're facing, and I'm sorry for that, but anytime you have to set boundaries with a boundaryless person, the thing you have to brace yourself for is the emotional pain because you're going to be told how horrible a daughter you are, and you're not. You're going to be told you're crazy, and you're not. You're gonna be told everything's wrong with you, and you're not. But you're still gonna feel those arrows as they come at you because they sting, they hurt. And so just get ready for that. There's no way to avoid it except to join in the crazy talk and join in the crazy land, and we're not gonna join in crazy land. And so the only other— then the thing that's gonna happen is 100% chance your mom's not gonna react well for that. She's a She's a travel agent for guilt trips, and she's going to pull out every card in the book to get money out of you and everything else, and anything she can.

"Well, I raised you. Where were you when I was feeding you?" "Well, that's like your job. You had a kid. That's where I was." And so all that. But there's no amount of talking, there's no amount of words that are going to fix this lady until she comes to herself and says, is, "I'm ready to get better. I'm ready to get better at this thing called life." And you can't make her do that at 22. And I don't want you to worry about it another day. I just— I do want you to brace yourself for when the time comes, it's going to be painful. She's not going to go well. So, pick up Henry Cloud's book, Boundaries. You will go, "Oh, that's me. I know that guy." Yeah, that's who that is. So, that's how that works. Jay is with us. Jay's in Denver. Hi, Jay.

How are you? Hello, I'm as good as it can be, Dave. Thank you for having me.

Sure. What's up?

Um, I have been raised with a silver spoon my life, my whole life. I never had to work a day and I am realizing that my trust fund is about to end in about a year, uh, next May or June. And I have never worked. Uh, it's my trust fund, it's up to my college, which is also gonna end in May next year. I'm studying to be an accountant and I'm getting very nervous because I'm worried about—

I'm sorry, you're getting a degree in accounting? Yes. Okay, and how old are you? 23. Okay, and have you, are you struggling, were you left a trust fund because you have a disability or a special need?

No. No, no, I, I, I have been given a trust fund, uh, through my background.

I understand, just your parents were wealthy, but it wasn't because you had some kind of a need. It was just they were wanting to bless you with the money. Yes. Okay, that's fine. I just want to make the distinction. So, okay, so the money ran out and now you're going to be like an adult and get a job, huh?

Yeah, I, I am. And my only— my main worry is that I my work ethic. I'm really worried about my work ethic, and especially never had worked before. Yeah, if employees are—

if you've got a work ethic or you wouldn't be getting out of school. You don't graduate and have no work ethic. You have a work ethic that caused you to study and go to class. That's a work ethic. You did not work that job yet. Yet, but so have a lot of people that went to college that didn't work when they were in college. That's not that unusual. So I love that you're worried about it. When do you graduate?

About May of next year.

Cool. Okay, so what would be wrong with taking a job right now and working like all the time?

See, that's the thing. I'm an F-1 legal resident, so I'm only allowed to get certain jobs that are related to campus. And so I have been applying to jobs and I've been contacting people with my resume, just trying to get my confidence built by having a job, by holding on a job. I'm doing that, but I'm still—

well, I mean, you're able to start a business on the side, aren't you? Exactly. Yeah, go buy a leaf blower. Rich people are afraid of leaves. You know, go get a lawnmower. Go buy a lawnmower and start cutting grass.

Is that legal?

Of course it's legal to cut grass. And it's definitely legal to blow leaves.

Is it something like an F1? I have no idea.

Okay. No idea what you're facing. But the thing, the antidote to what you're worried about is step right straight into it headfirst. I'm worried I don't have work ethic. So, go prove you have one.

Go work Work at the bookstore at the university campus. Just go do something. Go work all the time. And you'll be fine, Jay. I think, honestly, there's a lot of 23-year-olds that graduate college and they've never really worked before and they had to get their first adult job and all of it. So I think it's become dramatized in your head. I think you're going to do fine, but just, yeah, start working somewhere now.

Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. I am Dave Ramsey. Rachel Cruz, Ramsey personality, number one bestselling author. My daughter is my co-host today. Tiffany is with us in Chicago.

Hi Tiffany, how are you? Hi, I'm doing well.

How are you? Great. How can we help?

Um, so the reason why I'm calling in is because I got accepted into an Ivy Plus, uh, school for a very competitive, very niche graduate program, and I was offered a partial scholarship. Um, and so even with the scholarship, I'm looking at about $100,000 a year for student loans. My issue is where I live currently is like a hub for what I want to do. So, like, if I was working tech, but I lived in Silicon Valley, but my issue is I can't move due to the nature of my husband's job. So, if I don't get a job here, I can't get a job anywhere, if that makes sense. And so, now that I've gone through this process and I'm accepted and everything's kind of sinking in, I just don't know if it's— feasible to take on so much debt for something that isn't exactly guaranteed, if that makes sense.

So your graduate degree would be in what? So it'd be in the medical field. Be specific.

So it would be in prosthetics.

Okay, and so this is a master's Yes. So a 2-year program? Yes, that's correct. Okay, and it's the— it's local to you? I thought you said you were in Silicon Valley. My screen says you're in Chicago. I'm so confused.

No, no, no. So I'm, I'm in Chicago, but the nature of my job, it's huge here in Chicago. So it's like the equivalent of if I was working tech in Silicon Valley. Oh, I see.

Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So you're, you're, you're in, you're in the geographic location to do this. I got you.

Yes, that's correct.

And your husband's job is in Chicago. And what does your husband make?

So he's a doctor. Okay.

And you're, you're doing what today?

Oh, I'm, um, I, I am an office manager.

Okay, all right, so you're gonna enter a completely different field due to getting this master's. I don't know much about that field. Is a master's required to enter that area? Yes. Why?

Is there licensing? Yeah, so there's a lot of like board certifications, licensing, that sort of thing involved.

And the licensing requires a master's?

Okay, all right.

Well, all I can tell you is in general, we have never in 30-plus years of being on the air told someone to take out a student loan, and we're not going to start with you. So no, I would not do it. But then I have to stop and think about, okay, what are some workarounds to get you to where you want to go. And in general, if you can get the license— if you get the master's, you can pass the licensing regardless of where the master's came from. And if you get the licensing and the certification, you can get the job regardless of where the master's came from. There are almost zero jobs in America that they hire you based on where you went to school. They hire you based on your knowledge and your capability that you get that by becoming educated. But regardless of where you went to school, like you said, your husband's a doctor. No one walks into his office and says, "Hey Doc, where'd you go to school?" before they ask how— if he can help them or not.

Yeah, and my, my issue with that too is, so there's only 4 schools that do what I want to do, and I applied to all of them, and I only got into one.

Yeah, that doesn't mean I'm going to go $200,000 in debt. That. Yeah, I'm gonna find— I'm gonna find another way to do this, or I'm gonna do something else. But there's not— you are paying for something that does not have a return on investment when you pay for an IV Plus, okay? You're paying for the famous name, and the famous name has no benefit in the marketplace. None. No one hires people to do prosthetics based on where they went to school. No one walks into an oncologist and says, I got cancer, Doc, but wait a minute, where'd you go to school? No one asks their lawyer where they went to school. They just ask, can you help me? I've got 1,000 employees. I've never hired one based on where they went to school. So we've got to find another way to not spend $200,000 on something that has zero return. Oh, and going in debt to do do it. It's just unwise. So you've created this narrative, this world that says, "There's only one possible way to do what I want to do, and it's go $200,000 in debt to do it." And all that means is you have not looked at enough options yet.

You've not found another way to do this yet. And I don't know enough about your world to give you practical advice other than to say, you need to try some other doors on Tiffany, how much does your husband make a year?

So he makes, I think, $175,000.

Okay. Okay, yeah, and so even if you were paying cash for it, I would tell you not to do— not to pay an extra $200,000 to go to this particular school. Yeah. Okay, but you're not paying cash for it, and so it's just like, absolutely don't do this. Please don't do this. But please rewrite this narrative and say, there's gotta be another way for me to get at this. And I promise you, if there's only one possible way for you to do this and it's through going $200,000 in debt, that's God telling you don't do it. Don't do it. You're supposed to do something else with your life. I don't know what it is, but the last thing you need to do is follow through on this. It's a bad idea. So back up, say, okay, how can I get this certification Is the master's really required? Now, there are a few things— If it's in the medical field, I bet so.

I don't know.

I don't know anything about it. I truly don't know. But the first thing I would do is question everything. I'm gonna rebel, right, against the system. You know, here's one you can't win, okay? You can't become a licensed psychologist for doing therapy in any state without a master's. Okay, that one you can't fix. But there's a lot of places you can get the master's in psychology, right? That's right. And so, including online for that matter. And so hers is a very narrow, much more narrow field than that, and I don't know if it's an absolute requirement or if it's just highly suggested or looked upon. If it's highly suggested, looked upon, I don't give a crap. Crap. I do not have a master's. I do not have a PhD.

Well, it's hard when you're in such a narrow field like that. Yeah, it's hard to figure out. Naturally, your options are going to be more narrow. So you may have to even expand bigger, Tiffany, and ask, okay, why do I love this? Could I do something in a similar vein that still fulfills me in that way, but it's gonna look different? I don't know. So you may have to get a little creative if it doesn't work, because if it's very If it's that niche, there's only 4 schools that offer it.

One of the guys that comes to EntreLeadership, they own a prosthetics store. They do the fittings. And I've sat and talked to him. I do not remember any of this out of that. Maybe I just didn't know what I was talking about.

You probably didn't ask him.

It'd be interesting. I truly don't know. But I do know the concept. The concept is I'm not paying $200,000 for something that has no ROI.

Hey guys, Dave Ramsey here. Every day on this show, we help people work through real money problems and figure out what to do next. Now you can get that same kind of help anytime with Ask Ramsey. Ask your money question and get answers built on Ramsey principles we use on the show. Whether you're making a decision, decision, or just want something explained, Ask Ramsey is here to help. It's fast, simple, and free to use. Go to RamseySolutions.com and try Ask Ramsey today. That's RamseySolutions.com. Buying or selling a home is a big deal with all the clickbait and bad information out there. TikTok experts on real estate, Lord help us. You need real information. We're here to help you make the latest trends easy to understand. Median home prices are up a little last month. They generally go up a little every month. Pretty typical, especially here in the busy spring season. Mortgage interest rates are down. A 15-year fixed right now is 5.22%. That's down from 6% and some change. Yeah, it's jumped down almost a full point. Good point. To learn more about housing market trends and get free tools to help you buy or sell with confidence, go to RamseySolutions.com/market or click the link in the show notes.

Sarah is with us in Portland, Oregon. Hey Sarah, what's up?

Hi, it's a pleasure to speak with you. Thank you.

Certainly. How can we help?

I'd like to ask, how can I help my adult daughter understand how much money she is wasting on specialty coffee?

Oh, you're not going to like my answer.

Well, she is graduating from college in 30 days, and I know that it won't be our place to offer financial advice unless asked after that. But for the next 30 days, we'd like to give whatever advice we can.

It's too late. 4 years she's been in college buying Starbucks and you didn't say nothing. No, I mean, in 30 days you want to fix 4 years of damage? No, I mean, damage, it's just—

sorry, I know it's such a bad habit financially.

It's, it's— well, does she have the money?

Is this, is this lady, uh, what's she graduating in?

Um, she'll have a degree in landscape architecture. Okay. Oh, great.

And, and is she a good person? Is she of good character?

She's a great person. She's smart. She's incredibly talented.

Her only sin is specialty coffee?

It's, I mean, it's not a sin. It's just that she's going to be starting her independent financial life, and I don't think she realizes how much it spends.

Yeah, when she starts writing a check, yeah, when she looks down and sees her Starbucks bill, she's going to go, oh my, this is wild. Yeah, yeah.

These days you don't look down at every expense.

No, no, no.

But if it shows up in her budget, Okay, so this is fun. It's a cute thing. You're fun. You're fun, but because you know that you can't do anything about this is the bottom line, and you're right. And I personally wouldn't bring up the coffee ever again if I were you. But what I would do is say this. I would say, "Hey, you're getting ready to graduate, and one of the things I wish we had taught, done a better job teaching you during the last 4 years was to do a detailed written budget." a budget. And so as you do, as you come out, I really want you to pick up this EveryDollar app. It's free and start doing a detailed written budget for your sake. And I wish I'd done a better job making sure you did that all along, but I didn't. And so it's my last parting advice. Here's what'll happen when she does that, Sarah. That budget will— the categories in a budget, when you actually do it and actually live on it, if you can get somebody to do that, the categories yell at yell at you. And the specialty coffee will yell at her and go, "I just spent $300 this month on coffee.

This is crazy." And the numbers will just yell at you.

They, if you're doing the actual work. And if she doesn't, she's going to be getting a starting salary somewhere. And she's going to have to learn how to live on her salary. And I think through trial and error, Sarah, she's going to learn, "Okay, I can't eat at such and such restaurants weekly. I have to cut that back. Gosh, this coffee is is like, "I'm spending so much here. I got to probably pull back here." I think it's going to be some trial and error. Or, Sarah, God forbid, she has the money for her specialty coffee, and that's what she wants to do. And if it's not illegal or immoral, there's a value system there, right? There's things people spend money on that I roll my eyes at, like 2-year-old birthday parties that look like wedding receptions. I'm like, "Why would you? Why? Why?" You know, I roll my eyes at that, but it's not wrong that people do that if they have the money.

And that's what they want to do.

It's not my money. You know, people look at people buying cars, like, "I would never spend X on a car." But if you have the money, like, that's what they want to spend their money on. So, there is a point that it's going to be what she values.

I think if you have a daughter graduating from college, and she is a great person, and the biggest flaw you can find in her is this, I would just step back and say, "Thank you, Jesus," and say nothing. And say, "I did a great job. I have a great daughter. And if she spends some money on coffee I don't agree with, so what?" I would just step back from this and let it go. I would encourage a budget because a budget will point out to any one of you, anybody doing a budget, the numbers yell at you. They go, "This is smart.

This is dumb." [Speaker:GINGER] Well, and to your point, Sarah, what your opportunity costs of where money can go, right? So, even just throwing in, a coffee a day in an investment calculator and just see what that would cost you, right? And again, not like you're never gonna not buy coffee, but you start to see where your money has power and where you can use it wisely. But again, buying coffee is, you know, if that's what you wanna do, that's fine, but—

I saw this question come up on the screen earlier, and it took me back, and you've never heard this story, but my grandparents were in the Great Depression, of course, And they used the coffee grounds 3 days. They would reuse them. Over and over. They would reuse them in a percolator. Oh, yeah. Okay, they put them in a percolator, make a pot of coffee. The next day, left them in there, make a pot of coffee. And every time you do that, it's weaker and weaker.

I was gonna say, by the 3rd day, is it even coffee?

The 3rd day, this is hilarious, the 3rd day, it was so weak and so tepid that they called it coffee tea. Oh, gosh. It was not real. I mean, it was just nasty.

Just water. But—

and so, when your mother and I get married, and we use fresh grounds every morning, they felt like about us, like Sarah feels about her daughter. How wasteful you are. How wasteful we are, because we make fresh coffee every single day and didn't reuse the grounds and have coffee tea the third day. Yeah, yeah. But in that, that's so funny.

It's just a perspective. It's a perspective, right? Yeah, it is.

It's just, but I mean, I wasn't raised in the Great Depression and Sarah's daughter was raised in Portland, Oregon, which is kind of the home of specialty coffee. One of the homes of specialty coffees. Yeah, yeah. And so it's a coffee town for sure. And, you know, it's, yeah, that's interesting. But what a great discussion. Yeah, it's funny. That's great. I will say this, though. I want to go back to that other thing on EveryDollar. Everyone start doing your written budget, your detailed budget, because I will say it again, money, the numbers will— if you actually look down at it, you will feel stupid when you're doing something stupid. I mean, the numbers will just look at you and go, "That's stupid." The numbers will go, "That's why." And when you start chunking money over, like in your emergency fund, when you're working on Baby Step 3, and you see that growing, or you're chunking money on the debts, and you see the debts starting to go away, the numbers will tell you, and you'll start to feel good about yourself. The numbers will say, "You're smart, you're smart, you're smart, you're smart." And that thing talks to you.

It really does. It talks to you and it tells you, you know, you're acting like a child or you're acting like an adult, and that's silly to spend that. And I remember one time I sat down in a Financial Peace University group, and this guy, 100 years ago, and this guy says, "I figured out when we did our first month's budget why we don't have anything in retirement. We're spending $1,200 a month on eating out." just on restaurants. And this was back in the day. That'd be like $2,000 a month or $3,000 a month now on restaurants, right? He goes, "I figured out why we don't have a retirement. We've been eating it." You know, and the numbers are telling you, they're looking at you going, "You're dumb. This is dumb. You're consuming all of this money and you're not doing any investments. You're not doing any generosity." And the numbers, if you can get her to do a budget, Sarah, if her specialty coffee is out of line as a percentage of her overall income and world, it will speak up for itself and tell her. Yeah, she's going to be pissed off. And you will never have to say it because I don't think you're going to do any good saying it, by the way.

No, I agree.

Yeah, she's going to say, "Nunya, Mom.

Nunya business, Mom." She's going to say, "Mom, what are you talking about?" "Hey, Mom." No, in the budget too, the reframing of of, you know, having your money work for you. Like that is such a big mindset shift for people to say, what can I, this money is here for me to use as a tool to create a life that I love. What do I do with this to create a life that I love? And stability and peace gives you some of that. It gives you a life you love. And that's the investing and the generosity. You're doing the basic things and making sure that those things are covered. And then anything above that, then you're able to say, okay, what do I want to use this for? And if she wants to allot coffee in there, that's great, right? If that's her luxury item. But yeah, but making sure that again, that it's in a perspective and in a reality of her overall budget that makes sense.

Yeah, that's fun. Good call, Sarah. That's interesting. You're fun.

When I talk to people on The Ramsey Show, 90% of the problems I hear come down to one thing: not having a plan. They're not living on a budget. They have no idea where their money's going. Money is just happening to them instead of them happening to their money. Money. And guys, that is so normal, but it doesn't have to be normal for you. And that's why I want you to go download our EveryDollar budget app. EveryDollar not only helps you tell your money where to go with a budget, it also builds a plan to free up extra money so you can pay debt off faster and start building wealth. And the best part, your plan is completely personalized to your life. It's the same advice that you would get if you called the And it's right in your pocket. So, don't keep living normal. Go download the EveryDollar app, answer a few questions, and get your plan today.

So, a couple weeks ago, Rachel and I were on the air, and a lady called in, called us with a devastating, life-threatening question. Not really, I'm being sarcastic. And Rachel and her bonded immediately.

Her name's Rachel too, which is great.

Her name is Rachel as well. And here we put the thing on social media, a little clip of it on The Real, and it's gotten like 1.5 million or something views already, and it's going to be 4 or 5 million by the time I finish talking about it. So we're going to play a little bit of that clip to give you guys a little bit of an idea of what the conversation was What's your question about?

My question is, is there ever a time in Baby Step 2 that it would be appropriate to cash flow, like a life event or a once-in-a-lifetime experience? What would that be? So it would be to go see several good childhood friends of mine in Las Vegas named Kevin, Nick, Howie, AJ, and Brian at the Sphere in August. The Backstreet Boys.

Yes. They're childhood friends. Shoot. I'm so glad you called on this day, Rachel.

You know, Rachel's been twice. "Uh?" And the call went on from there, and Rachel was crying because she had to tell her in Baby Step 2, "We don't do that." No, I don't think I actually said it, the words. We decided it would be a fun thing to follow up with the other Rachel that called in about this, and she's in Indianapolis. Hey, Rachel, are you there on the line? I am. Hey, well, something weird happened since you called in. Um, somebody went into my DMs and I don't look at them, our social media guys look at them, but they recognize the guy, um, and he wants to come on the air and talk to you. Um, Kevin is his name. Hey Kevin, how are you?

Hey guys, how's it going?

Good to have you, brother. Thanks for being with us. So Rachel, this is Kevin from the Backstreet Boys. This is your—

oh my God, this is your childhood friend, Rachel.

Sexual? Oh my goodness, is this real right now? This is real.

You're not being punked.

It is. A dear friend of mine shared the clip with me. A buddy of mine who's an actor, Big Ry, Ryan McPartland, shared the clip with me. I saw it and I immediately posted in on the clip in the feed, I, I can help, maybe I can help. And then I, I DM'd Dave and here we are. And I would like to invite you and a guest to come see us in Las Vegas, and we'll pick up the tab.

Oh my gosh! Well, and you can't go in Baby Step 2 if you have to pay for the travel, so Ramsey's gonna pick up the travel for you, okay?

Are you serious right now?

Is this not the best day, Rachel?

So happy for you. I'm like, I'm like gonna start crying.

That's so fun, y'all. That is so fun. I have no idea what all y'all are squealing about, but Kevin, thank you for doing this. You're amazing.

Well, you're amazing, and, uh, thank you for all you do. You're— you work in the, uh, in the health industry, right? Are you a nurse or a caretaker or—

so I'm a psychiatric nurse practitioner. I work, um, I work in like mental health and addiction.

Okay, all right, well, you're, you're, you're, uh, doing, uh, God's work right there, and, uh, you deserve a break, and you deserve a mommy-daddy trip or a girlfriend's trip or whatever it is. You and a guest come and hang out with us and, and take a trip back in time.

Oh my gosh, this is amazing, and it's such an honor to speak with you, and it's great to speak with you too, but Kevin, you're amazing. Thank you, thank you.

I believe, I believe, I like to— I'm not— I don't like to spend money, but when I do spend money, I like to spend it on experiences. And so you should have this experience.

Absolutely. Yeah, and Rachel can testify since she's been there twice.

I know, Kevin, you guys, you heal inner, inner child of, of millennial women across, across our world. It It is, it is the best show. So Rachel, I'm so excited for you.

Yes, thank you so much. This is incredible. Thank you. Um, but no, I, I, I'm speechless right now. It takes a lot to get me speechless.

Well, I, I hope you have a great time. And, and Dave, I'm a new fan now. And Rachel here, I'm a new fan as well.

Thank you, Kevin, for coming to our show.

John, uh, is it Delaney? Is that Delaney? Deloney or Deloney? Deloney. I've been following him for a while. I love what he does, and he actually reached out to me, Rachel, and said you were coming to the show and I was gonna try— oh, you guys, but we got our DM timeline crossed up and I didn't get to say hi to you.

That is totally fine. I so— I appreciate that. He's a good friend to do that. But yeah, Kevin, we love you. We do. We love the Backstreet Boys, just so you know.

Following along, getting all kinds of goodness on how to, how to handle my finances as That's right.

If you need any help, you let us know. I'm sure you'll be fine.

Thank you. Thank you, Kevin. That's very generous.

We'll see you this summer, whenever you let us know. We're gonna be in touch. Our folks will reach out to you. And, uh, whenever this summer, um, July through August, you, you figure it out, you pick it out, and we'll take care of it.

Oh my gosh, you're like— you guys are incredible. Thank you so much. Like, I, I don't know, I can't say thank you enough. Like, That's so fun.

We'll see you this summer.

Thanks, Kevin, for reaching out. That's very generous of you. Very cool. Good stuff, guys. Very fun. Thanks, Kevin. Very fun. Well, you don't get to do that very often.

Like, never. Oh my gosh. It's like a Make-A-Wish. You know what I mean? Where you're just like, "I feel like we just healed Rachel." I was like, "The fact that we get to take her," you know? It's amazing. Kevin's generosity. I'm really proud.

Appreciate him reaching out in the DMs. Yes. Glad my social media guys actually recognized recognized, because I don't look at it and they would have been, "Oh, this is like the Kevin." Yes. And his generosity and all is just incredible. So kind. It makes a fun moment. It makes a great moment. And she'll never forget it.

Oh my gosh.

For sure.

So great. Yeah.

Now, we have a whole new clip.

And it is the whole— well, the experience part, what he said, is so true. And that's what Arthur Brooks talks about.

The stinking fear is just off the charts. Chain. Do I? Oh yeah, it's just 167,000 speakers. It's like you're wearing headphones. It's incredible.

It's amazing. Yeah, it's amazing.

Yeah, Rachel's going to have a great time, and we'll pick up the travel, and he's picked up the tickets and the experience that he'll have. That's so great. The boys will have lined up for Miss Rachel in Indianapolis, and, uh, very, very generous of them, and we appreciate the effort. And the effort to come on the air with us and, and do the giveaway.

I know, we took time out of his day to do that. So kind. So kind.

Very nice. Very nice. Hey guys, generosity, it's— Heals the soul. The best part of handling your money well is it puts you in a position that you can do something. The best part of handling your fame well is it puts you in a position to do something. The best part of handling your power well is it puts you in a position to do something for someone else, which is where you will get the most joy, by the way. And so, you know, it just goes right with the giving shows, the generosity stuff we talk about. But obviously, it's Kevin's spirit to do that. And to be that kind of a person. And then it sets Rachel up to be able to do this. It all comes down because you were already the biggest fan and customer, and she called in on a day you were on the air.

Listen, I got someone to Taylor Swift, 'cause the Eras Tour was amazing. The Backstreet Boys in Vegas. Oh my gosh, it's life-changing. It is. So, when you get to—

It's a spiritual thing.

I'm telling you, for millennials, y'all, this is like our— Oh, and I just saw, I think it's, there's some, yeah, there's some more, all the millennial bands, they're all like coming back. There's like a thing in Nashville happening this summer with some of them. Yeah, it just, it is, it's so good. The nostalgia play is real and—

All the boomer bands are back, but they're all 80.

Yeah, these guys can actually dance.

These guys are young. They can actually be dancing.

And they're all good guys. Like you, like there's one of the songs and it's a video of all of like pictures of them and their moms and their kids and their wives. And you're just like, oh my gosh, It's just like, they've just done so well. They've stewarded it so well. And I think that's why I love 'em too. There you go. Is all these years later, you know? Or I'm praying for Brittany still. I want her to— I want her to do well. But yeah, it's awesome. So great.

That's fun. Congratulations, Rachel. And thank you again to Kevin and the Backstreet Boys for furnishing the tickets. What a great fun thing we get to do here on the air today.

Listen up, folks. If you've got a complicated tax situation and you're putting off filing your return, it's time to talk with a Ramsey Trusted Tax Pro. Not next week, not April 15th, right freaking now. Ramsey Trusted Tax Pros know the tax code front to back so they can do the heavy lifting to help you file on time and explain things to you with the heart of a teacher. But they can only do that if you get on their schedule before they book up. Go to ramsaysolutions.com/taxpro to find a full-time tax advisor who serves your area with excellence. That's RamseySolutions.com/taxpro. Our scripture of the day, Romans 8:28, and And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them. Colonel Sanders said, just because you took longer than others doesn't mean you failed. Remember that. By the way, if you didn't know, he started Kentucky Fried Chicken at 67 years old. So it's not too late. I don't care who you are. It's not too late. Very fun. So, Rachel, are you okay now? I'm okay. Calm down now.

I said the 12-year-old me is just dying inside. Dying inside. So listen, the boy band era was real, y'all. When you were in middle school, I mean, that was a— that was a real, real thing. So that's pretty wild.

So they had to be like 20 years old, right? Or they were— they were teenagers. Oh, yeah.

Okay. All right. Yeah, but he was the oldest bandmate. And he just told me, 'cause I went and I ran into the booth to say bye to him, to tell him thank you. Yep, his oldest, he said, was 18, is 18, his oldest child, son.

Oh, so age he was when all this was happening.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, wow. So, and I think he was a little bit older in the band too, if I remember right. But anyways, it was great. So fun.

And to be able to hook her up on that.

We need to do like a once a year giveaway way on Ramsey's show.

If we find something like that, we'll do it. I mean, we didn't create that. He did. But I mean, we just facilitated it, right? But we— so, if you call in, want concert tickets, we're not buying them for you, okay? That's not what this was about, okay? But yeah, that's— but yeah, he DM'd us, and I'm out there talking to the social media guy, and he's telling me the whole story. I didn't even know how this all happened, but very Interesting. Very fun. It's fun. Fun. Wonderful. Yeah, I think she was truly speechless.

Yeah, I'm sure that was like a massive whiplash.

Yeah, yeah. She had no idea why we called her on the air. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Called her and said, we need you to come back on the air. And she's like, uh, what do I do? What? What'd I do wrong? What'd I do wrong? All right, Emile is with us in Miami. Hi, Emile, how are you?

Hey guys, I hope you're doing better than you deserve.

We are. How can we help you Yes.

So I just graduated college 4 months ago. I'm 26 years old. I was able to secure a $70K career that's pretty stable. And I wanted to know how I can stay motivated to stay out of debt for the next 40 years. Um, I have no student loans. I have a paid-off car, thanks to my parents. And, um, I do have $5K in credit card debt.

And you're wanting to know just how to.

Well, you can't stay motivated in a vague sense of, "Oh, I'm just gonna be motivated." Most people can't. You need a specific reason that you're doing things. So, you know, for instance, when we went broke and I filed bankruptcy the year Rachel was born, born because I was an idiot. And so my reason was to never be back in that kind of pain again and to make sure I could feed my children and to change my family tree. That was my reason, my driving force was to never be stuck by that again. And so, you know, why— if you were to build wealth, why would you and what would be your goal? What is it you're trying to do with the wealth? So if you're married with a kid, you'd say, "Oh, I'd love to change my family tree." You know, "I'm the first one in my family to graduate from college, and so I'm gonna use that as a way to, you know, further the family name and the—" You know, but I don't know what your thing is, but you need to have something that's a reason, a why that you're doing this.

If you have a good why, your motivation is there. So I'll recommend a book for you and a TED Talk as well that's famous by a friend of mine named Simon Sinek. Simon became famous from the TED Talk and now he's had multiple bestselling books, and we've spoken together in leadership conferences. He's a wonderful guy. The book that made him famous and the talk that made him famous is called Start with Why. Start with why. And so you have to have a big why for scratching and clawing and sacrificing to win. Otherwise, you'll just be mediocre. And in America today, it's very easy to have a really high-quality life and be average and mediocre and not be all that you could be. The enemy of excellence is not laziness and all this. The enemy of excellence is, "Oh, everything's okay. So, I don't have to push myself." And I don't have to develop a why. I'm just like, "Thank God it's Friday. Oh God, it's Monday." Coasting. Coasting. Yeah, yeah. So, you need a why. You need a reason that we're doing this. And if you've got that, then it'll get you up in the morning and money will be a natural result of that.

Yeah, and usually, the motivation and the why, if it's something that can be taken away, like I'm doing it to buy a type of car, or I'm doing it for this thing, that can feel very shallow very quickly. So, those things that money can't buy, you know, I'm doing this for my family, I'm doing this for security and peace, I'm doing, like, you know what I mean? Like those things are great.

Someday, I wanna give away $1 million. Yes, the generosity. Or, you know, someday I wanna do this, someday I wanna do that. And that's your driving thing. And it becomes a goal, your why becomes a goal, and then you begin to break it down year by year and go, "Okay, this year, I'm gonna make this much progress towards that goal. Next year, I'm gonna make that much progress towards that goal," and so on. And you, a little bit at a time, you get there. And that'll also keep you away from things that are harming you if you have a good enough why. And so, you know, you'll cut up the credit cards and get rid of the little $5,000 worth of debt. That's just kind of— that's just disorganized and lazy is all that is. Organizationally lazy, not, not work ethic lazy. Mitchell is in Chattanooga.

Hi Mitchell, how are you? Good, thank you guys for taking my call. Sure, I can How can we help? So my wife and I are planning on moving in the next 18 months, but we're planning on moving to a different state to be closer to family. So my question is, how do we tackle that large of a move? For context, we have $85,000 or so left on our house and it's worth about $350,000. So our plan would be to take the equity from the house and use that as the down payment toward the next house. But if we, if we don't sell our house and find one in the next state and vice versa, if we, have somebody wanting to buy our house here, but we haven't found the next house. What do we go about with contingencies? How would that work?

Well, before I worried about that, I would flowchart this and say, we are moving when these things happen and not until. And I don't know what these things are, but the two that come to mind could be the house sells, and it could be you have your new job lined up there. You didn't mention that. You just said we want to be closer to family. You didn't mention I've got a job lined up, do you?

I— well, I work remote and I can work anywhere, so the job will just go with me.

Okay, that's easy then. Okay, so the only thing keeping you from leaving could be the sale of the house.

You could just sit there until the house sells, and then if we sell this house, would we would it be smart to do a leaseback while we're finding the house in the next state?

I mean, if you can delay the closing, that's fine. If you end up— you know, what I would do is when you put your house on the market, I would begin shopping houses there and say, this neighborhood, these 4 houses in this neighborhood would be great, any of them would be great, and if our house sells, we're immediately going to make an offer on one of those and we'll set them up for closing closings 2 days apart, and you can make that happen. Or you can, you know, set up a— if the buyer is willing on your side to let you live there for a month while you fool around and find a house, that's fine. But I think you can do your footwork, especially if you got family over there and you maybe lived there before yourself, I don't know. You kind of know some of the areas already that you're thinking of. Go over there and physically go visit the houses like you're looking for a house, because you are, and only you're just not putting in an offer today. And then don't get all hot and bothered and buy a house before yours sells.

That's gonna get you into a mess. At least don't close on it. Yeah, so I actually did this a few years ago. We ended up— it was a two-step procedure for us because we were gonna build, and obviously we didn't have time to build while we sat in the old house, right? So we bought another house, but we had already shopped that neighborhood before we put our house on the market. We put it on the market, it sold, and we made offers on 3 different houses in that neighborhood and moved— bought one of them, moved into that neighborhood. And you can do that kind of a thing. And you can also put a contingency offer that's contingent upon the closing of your old house, and you don't have to close on the new one until the old one sells. That puts us, Hour of the Ramsey Show, in the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember, there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.