Transcript of You Can’t Drift Into Financial Peace

Brought to you by the EveryDollar app. Start budgeting for free today. Normal is broke and common sense is weird, so we're here to help you transform your life. From the Ramsey Network in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio, this is the Ramsey Show. Number one bestselling author, Ramsey personality, and host of Front Row Seat, Ken Coleman, is my co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-1111. 5-2-2-5. Ann is with us in West Palm Beach, Florida. Hi, Ann, how are you?

I'm well, thank you. How are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up?

Okay, so I'm calling in today because, um, I've been in a financially abusive, uh, marriage for the last 23 years. Um, I am facing prison time. I'm actually supposed to be checking into prison on the beginning of June. We have 4 children. They're all amazing, smart. I stayed at home with them for the last 20 years. Um, I'm going to prison for, um, it's called a conspiracy to commit bank fraud. And my— during, um, COVID, my husband put my name down on documents showing that I was the owner of a couple of companies. He gave me different people to put down on these companies, and, um, and so that's, that's what happened.

Um, I'm sorry, you knew this was happening when it was happening though?

No, no, I didn't know that it was.

How are you being held accountable for someone fraudulently using your name? I'm confused.

That's a good question. I mean, that's a good question. We had federal agents come to the house and ask questions like, is this your signature? And I said yes. Like I said, I've been a stay-at-home mom for so long. I know we have back taxes due. I've signed those. I've never had my name on an account. Anytime my husband would put my name on a bank account, it would be closed due to like overdrawn funds. Um, so I've, I've been in a position that any money was his money. I never had a say in anything we did with the money. He had a bad gambling problem. Um, so I mean, yeah, that's, uh, let me—

can I, can I push back on this? Because this is a big thing to drop on us here. You've already been convicted, and so that means the government went through trial and proved to a jury that you did in fact, uh, participate in this. And so when Dave asked you the question—

no, no, we didn't go to trial. My attorney told me that— who has not been paid— my attorney told me that, um, I would probably not win at a trial.

So you pleaded?

Yes, I pleaded. Yes. Yeah.

How long are you supposed to be incarcerated?

3 years. Um, so, so they let him go in first.

Um, oh, so he's, he's already in prison?

He was in, now he's out. Out of 3 years, he did 1 year. Um, during that time, I had gotten a job. I had— I have a graduate degree I got before I started having children.

How old are your children now?

22, 18, 17, and 12.

Okay. So I'm, I'm afraid to ask, but apparently he's taking care of them. Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay. Are you divorced yet?

No, he won't. He won't give me a divorce.

He doesn't get the option of giving you a divorce. You live in Florida. You can file for divorce and that will be granted.

He takes my keys if I try to leave. He's let the air out of my tires. He's—

I don't care. Obviously you can't stay married to this guy.

I don't have anywhere to go.

I don't know where you're going somewhere in 3 months, so that's not an issue. We already know where you're going, but in the meantime, you need to get an attorney and get divorced.

That's my plan, is the second I set foot in that prison that I'm filing for divorce. You know, yeah, absolutely. I have somewhere to go after, and I'll have a better plan. And yeah, good.

You get to start over fresh after living in an abusive, horrible situation for way too long, right?

Right.

Okay. Yeah.

So now that I've worked for, you know, the past 3 years at a job. I know I have like a 401(k). What do I need to do anything with that before I go away?

Uh, you can sit down with a SmartVestor Pro and roll it into an IRA because you're probably not going back to that job, I suspect, right?

I, I don't know, possibly.

I'm kind of betting on that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so what were you doing? What was your career for the last 3 years?

I, um, did epidemiology for a clinic.

You did everything for what? For a clinic?

Um, epidemiology, track diseases.

Okay, so you're— that's what your graduate work is in?

Yeah.

Okay. All right, so you think you can land that when you come out?

Probably not. No, I've, I have so much resentment toward my husband. I'm, I'm probably never going to be able to do anything.

I'm sorry, why would you not be able to land that again? Your husband has anything to do with this. He's not your husband anymore at the end of the story, and you are starting fresh the other side of a jail term. Why could you not go back to this career?

I think because I have a felony, I I don't believe that I am very marketable.

Well, let me jump in here to try to encourage you. You have 3 months to tie up some loose ends, obviously, and one of the most important is to get your story out there, either to your existing company— they probably already know this— but this is a situation where you have to try with everything you have to get out the correct narrative and look people in the eye And some people are gonna say things to you 'cause they don't like tough conversations. Some people don't even wanna consider anything, but I would be trying to shore up what reentry would look like 'cause if your husband got out in a year, hopefully you're gonna get out sooner than him.

00:07:06

Yeah, you're not in a situation where you're handling money in any way, so it's a medical situation, so having a felony is not necessarily gonna keep you from landing a job, especially if you tell them when you go in for an interview "When you do the research, when you do the background check, you're gonna find a felony. I'm out, I'm clean, I'm innocent. Here's what happened." "Yeah." "I'll give you the short— give me the thumbnail sketch version of that, not with a bunch of shame and not with a bunch of drama, but just a little bit of information for the person doing the interview. And if you don't need to call me back, you can go ahead and let me know now, or if you wanna give me a shot, I'll be the best employee you ever had." I think you'll land something when you get out and you just start your life again, kiddo. This time without the baggage of an abuser hanging around your neck.

The year he was away was the best year of my life.

Yeah, well, that's good news. Welcome to the rest of your life. He's away forever now.

Lay the groundwork now. I can't say this enough with your community. Lay the groundwork now for when you get out that you have a job or at least possibilities or people who will champion you. That's going to be very vital.

Plug into your local church. Let your story be known. And, you know, you've got two things to work on when you come out. You will be divorced unless you really are dumb. You really need to be divorced. You needed to be divorced 20 years ago, but now you really need to be divorced. Okay? And then you got to deal with a career, restarting your life, and taking care of a 12-year-old and however old that 12-year-old is when you get out. But if he got out in a year on three, you'll probably get out in a year or 6 months on three. I think that's a reasonable set of assumptions, so you need to get this divorce done. Listen, identity theft doesn't just happen just because you're careless. You can do everything right and still become a victim, whether your information is skimmed online, stolen through a scam, or exposed in a data breach, which happens every day, then it becomes your problem, your time, your money, your paperwork galore. That's why I've told people for years to have identity theft protection, and the only plan I've ever recommended is from Zander Insurance. Zander monitors for signs of fraud, even home title fraud, and they send alerts when something looks off.

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Hi, how are you?

Better than I deserve. How can I help?

I just wanted to know what your advice is on whether, like, taking out a loan to get a master's in counseling, because I got a bachelor's degree in individualized studies. It's like a general degree, and I just haven't been able to find work that I really like. So what would you recommend, like, if that's worth it, or just continue to try to find work that I can like?

Well, what do we think that the master's degree is going to do? Do you have a tangible idea in your mind?

Well, I see myself as being a really good advisor, a really good counselor, and so it would give me the credentials to be a counselor.

Okay, and what's that— what's the journey like? How many years? How much money?

2 to 3 years, and it would take, um, $20,000 to $30,000.

Yeah, well, don't take out a loan for it. The answer is we're never going to tell you to take out a loan for that. And so now you put that target out there and you go, okay, $20,000 to $30,000, is that for the champagne, uh, degree? Is that the, uh, is that the wine? Or the beer budget, right? Because here's what I know about master's degrees or any graduate degree. People don't care. Your clients, the people that you serve, won't care. So I'm gonna do some price analysis and I'm gonna go, okay, reputable schools, but I'm gonna look at, can I beat that price? If I can beat that price, great. And then we're gonna cash flow this because the degree, that master's degree will always be there. So it's not worth going into debt for you to have the opportunity to then get into a new field. So the answer to that is always gonna be no, you don't need to get a loan for that. You need to be patient or super urgent to stack up the $20,000 to $30,000 as quickly as possible.

Are there, um, okay.

I'm 33.

I know.

Um, and how long would it take you? Okay, so let's play this out. How long would it take you at the $30,000 price to save up that money or save up enough of it to get started on it? Yeah. So that you can cash flow it.

Honestly, I don't really know because—

Well, let's walk through it.

Do you have a career now? Do you have a job now?

Actually, I thought I could find work and I'm basically just getting started with an insurance agent to sell insurance.

Okay, this is a trap. I'm gonna warn you, this is a trap. We see this all the time. You come out of school, you can't find something, and you think, okay, since I can't find anything, I'm gonna go to the one thing I know, which is how to learn, and I'm gonna I'm gonna go get another level degree, and that one's actually gonna give me a better chance to get hired. Does that sound like something you've thought about or felt?

Kind of, yeah.

It's a trap. It's a trap.

Yeah, and that's not the answer. So the answer is, if I've lived my whole life and for the last 20 years or 5 years or 7 years, all I've dreamed about is getting to be a counselor, and the way to get to be a counselor is to get a master's degree because you have to have one to be licensed in every state now, I'm a therapist. Um, and, and that's what I always wanted to do. That's a different narrative than I hadn't been able to find a job. Now I'm selling insurance. So I think I need to go back to school. And that's a trap.

I didn't know.

That's a trap.

I didn't know what I wanted to be. And I finally like cracked down and I like found my authenticity and found what I was good at. And I knew ever since high school that I would be a good counselor. And so I was like, you know what? I, I, I've been, I've had my heart set on being some kind of counselor for the past, like, 5, 10 years.

So what I would do then is go to work sweeping floors for a counseling organization rather than going into insurance. And I would be the secretary at the front desk for the counseling organization and be in there and see if some of them even have scholarship money or tuition reimbursement money. But you need to get in the proximity, as Ken always says, his book, The Proximity Principle, of that. Rather than, "I'm gonna dive off. I haven't been able to find a job, and so I'm gonna dive back into studies." And diving back into studies is never a good thing when you haven't been able to find a job. So yeah, you need to get your big girl life up and running, and the best place you could do that in your situation is in proximity of a counseling organization, especially if they have some kind of tuition reimbursement program. And I'm not kidding, if you can sweep their floors, that's what I would do rather than sell insurance. Selling insurance is absolutely has nothing to do with anything except you just took a job and they were the only ones that would hire you this week and so you took a job and they're not even gonna pay you.

They're putting you on straight commission to try to get your mother to buy insurance and then they're gonna fire you 'cause you're not gonna make any sales. And so that's just, yeah, this is not tracking out. So hang on, we're gonna send you a copy of the book Proximity Principle that Ken wrote. And Ken, talk about that for a minute, the whole thesis behind that book because that's helpful to a lot of people.

00:15:30

Yeah, the proximity principle says in order to do what I want to do, fill in the blank there, I've got to be around people that are doing it and in places where it is happening. So the real formula is the right people plus the right places equals opportunities. And so this is a really empowering thought when you figure out that it's actually not a deep thought. It's just the old phrase, it's not what you know, it's who you know. We all know that's true. That really, that sticks because we all get that.

Not in some kind of slimy way, but it's just the way a door gets opened is you knew somebody.

That's it. Well, you told me, this is one of my all-time favorites, is if you ever walk by you look at a fence post and see a turtle on top of it, you know it didn't get there by itself. And all of us get opportunities through connections and relationships. And so the proximity principle's a step further to say, okay, if I want to be a project manager, then the first thing I need to do is in my immediate circle, do I know anybody that's a project manager in real life? And if it's not in my immediate circle, does my immediate circle know somebody? And now we're gonna go to coffee or lunch and we're gonna just simply do a book report on them, right? How'd they get where they are now? What are the good parts of their day? What are the bad parts of their day? How much money do they make? What does the ceiling look like in that industry? You get to know everything about it. And in learning all of that, two things happen. Number one, you validate, this is called clarify and verify. You clarify what's involved in the role and the journey to the role, and then there's something inside, that tuning fork will go off.

That's confirmation, that's verify that I wanna do this. The second thing is, is that you now, you are taking the posture of a student, Dave, and you're learning, and people appreciate that. And then you say, hey, I would appreciate any other connections or relationships you'd be willing to put me in touch with. And that's where now these things begin to stack. And eventually, if you stay that course, keep showing up in that way, opportunities present themselves to where somebody says, hey, there's a job open, I just recommended you, and you're likely to get it. That's how this plays out.

Nicholas is in Seattle. Hey Nicholas, what's up?

Hey, how's it going?

Better than I deserve. How can we help?

Uh, so I had kind of two questions. The first one being, uh, me and my wife are in Baby Step 2 and we've paid off quite a bit of debt now.

And how much have you paid off?

Uh, we've paid off a little over $10,000 and we're down to—

how long did that take?

Uh, it took, I want to say maybe 8 or 9 months.

Okay, good for you. I'm sorry, sorry for interrupting. How can I help?

Um, so the first question I had was if and when would it be wise of me to maybe take some of our income now that some of the debt is paid down to go and take maybe a family trip for the day, to possibly go and enjoy ourselves? Cause it seems like we don't get to spend as much time, you know, kind of pitching all of our money towards paying off the debt.

In general, you take vacations after you get your emergency fund built and after you're debt-free. When you say for the day, I don't know why that takes any money. Where are you going for a day?

Maybe if it's like a fishing trip, something that cost a couple hundred dollars.

Yeah.

Okay.

Uh, like just fishing on the local lake?

Uh, maybe going up to the mountains or something.

Uh-huh.

For the day? Yeah. Yeah. I'm asking because it almost seems as if it was wrong to spend money on something.

It is. You need to get your butt out of debt. And you're pretty laid back about this whole discussion. The way people get out of debt is they get a lot more fired up than you are. They get a lot more angry about the debt than you are. And they get a lot more intense than you are. And if they're thinking about a fishing trip, they're gonna go buy $20 worth of rod and reel over at the Walmart and drop a float in the lake that's about a 10-minute drive away and call that a fishing trip, which is the same thing as going to the mountains for the kids. It's only the adults that know the difference. Difference. I got a little lake in my neighborhood and you can catch about 25 fish in 25 seconds over there because there's nothing going in there. I took my 4-year-old grandson down there the other day. We had a fishing trip.

Hey guys, George here. Listen, 99 times out of 100, when people say, I don't know where my money goes, it's not a math problem.

It's a behavior problem.

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Hi, I'm good. How are you doing?

Better than I deserve.

What's up? I have a question about a trust. I've heard you say a couple different things, and I was just curious what you would do in my situation. Okay. I've heard you say maybe an LLC, or if you're raising smart kids, then you don't necessarily need a trust. But I have minors, and I'm just curious, um, what I should do. I have a house, and I have, um, a house that is paid for, and then I have some mutual funds and my IRAs and stuff like that.

Okay. And so your net worth is a million or so?

It's close to $4 million.

Oh, good for you. Well done. Very well done. Okay. Um, what we did when we were at your stage and we had minor children was we set up a will and the will—

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I should also add I'm divorced. So my, my kids are taken care of in the form and fashion that they will go to their dad if something happened to me. I just want to take care of my stuff for them.

Okay. Yeah, that's fine. So maybe you can do the exact same thing then. So, so the actual guardian would be your ex. But then what do we do with your stuff if you die while they're minors? So what we had set up on ours with minors was the trust is formed upon death. And it's just a children's trust, very simply, Jill's kids. And that's the trust, and whatever, you can call it whatever you want to call it. But it's a children's trust while they're minors. And all of your assets are dumped into that trust, and then you leave instructions to the trustee of how you want those assets handled. I'll give you a couple of things we did, and you could choose to add those or not add those. Okay, one was the trust, the income generated by the trust while they're minors, a good healthy child support payment goes to the guardian to take care of the kiddos while they're minors. So I don't want him to be, in this case your ex, to be stressed at all with clothes and, you know, food and so forth for having all the kids now full-time.

Okay, that's one thing. The second thing we said was, okay, you can use some of the money from the trust when you you go to college and pay cash for college. You could use it for the purchase of your first car, a minor amount for that. You could use it if there was a major medical event and you needed to pull some out in addition to the monthly income to cover medical expenses for the child while they're minors. But other than that, the money was just going to be sitting there growing. Okay? And then when they turn 18, their portion of the assets would be turned over to them. That's how we had it set up. Later on, we modified it because it's got to be a little larger amount of money, we said, "Okay, at 18 you get X amount and at 25 you get the rest," because we didn't want to dump millions and millions on a freaking 18-year-old, okay? So that's how we handled it until they were grown. When they were grown, we changed everything, of course, because they're not minors anymore. And we even put in ours, we dictated how the money in the trust was to be handled.

And what it was to be invested in, like the 4 types of mutual funds we talk about. And there's this piece of real estate and it's paid for and it just stays in there, can't be sold. And so the trustee can't get all conservative and put it all in CDs or something.

Um, what about— should I put my house in anything right now? Not now, no. Everything just goes upon death, and then when they both turn 18, then I can restructure everything?

Every— upon 18, you can dictate that the trust does X, or once they are 18 and you're still alive, then you'll change the whole thing and decide what you want to do at that point. And you do that based on whether or not they're going to be competent adults and whether this money is going to be a blessing. Because you give money to an incompetent, it's not a blessing. Yes, it magnifies their incompetence. Okey-doke. So that's what we did, you know. And so as they grew— now we're way past that now. I mean, my youngest is 35. So we're way past all that and we're way past the competency question and all those kinds of things. So all of our structure today is all just built around risk management and around keeping the stinking government's hands off of it upon death, because the stupid government takes 55% of everything above— I think this year it's $28 million or something. So the death tax— they tax you once while you're alive, they tax you again when you die. So you spend a lot of money and a lot of time keeping their hands hands off of it then also.

But that's a different discussion than you're worried about today. Right now you just want to make sure your kids are okay and the stuff is managed well.

Yeah. And good on you, Mom. You know, great job with your financial situation. Just wanted to let you know you're a real hero and they're going to appreciate that someday. To be a single mom and in your situation, great, great job.

Yeah, and being intelligent and intentional and all of that. There's so much wisdom there. Well done. Stella's in Los Angeles. Hi, Stella. How are you?

Hi, I'm well. How are you?

Better than I deserve.

How can I help? Big fan, big fan, but don't tell anyone I said that.

Okay.

Um, we have an 82-year-old neighbor that wants us to consider using a contract for deed to protect her home now. Absolutely not.

Oh, under no circumstances do you do that. And I'll explain to you why. Okay. A contract for deed means the property is in her name. And when you fulfill the contract—

Is there a way to do it where it's in our name?

That's the only thing you can do that I would do. We'll talk through that in a second. Let me finish on the contract for deed. Okay, so it's in her name and you pay payments, and when the amount is paid off, then she transfers title to you. Okay, problem is if that person falls asleep at the wheel and hits somebody head-on and gets sued for half a million dollars, there's a lien on property that you thought you owned But it's not in your name, it's in her name. So they put a lien on her property for $500 million. And now you won't ever get this property no matter what happens. Or she forgets to pay the IRS. She's 82 and she didn't file her tax returns, and they put a lien on the property that she owns because it's in her name. So everything that she could possibly do to screw up life lands on you after you pay payments on this for 10 years. So not a chance you ever do contract for deed. Very dangerous way to take title. Now, I assume, does she have a debt? On the property? No. Good. Well, then it's very easy.

She wants to sell it to you and move away, or stay in the property?

No, she wants— she wants to live there until she passes, and then we'll take the property over.

Okay, that's very easy. You need to just see a real estate attorney, and all you've got to do is just transfer the title. And she carries back a mortgage against it. You pay the mortgage. And if she dies, you have to finish paying the mortgage to her heirs, correct? Correct. Okay. Or if she dies, the mortgage is forgiven in return for having her— and then what she's getting is a life estate. A life estate. So while she's alive, she can live in the property. And I would qualify that life estate even further: while she's alive and medically able to live in the property. So let's say that she ends up in memory care because of it, early onset— it wouldn't be early onset, but dementia, okay? And it can't live in the property anymore, but then she lives 6 more years. Meanwhile, the property's sitting there rotting down because you can't take it because she's still alive. So if the case— she's— so life estate qualified, extra qualification that if she's unable medically to live in the property anymore, it goes ahead and transfers. As if she had passed. And, and then whatever happens to the mortgage, you guys can negotiate that at that point.

But you pay the payments until either she dies or until you pay it off to her kids. And the property is in your name the whole time, just like you took out a mortgage, only the mortgage is held by her.

So it's like seller finance. It's exactly what it is. We do it.

Okay, seller finance modified by a life estate with a medical qualification.

Fantastic, thank you so much.

And that protects you and protects her, and everybody's going to get a good deal

here.

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Javier is in San Antonio. Hey Javier, what's up?

Hi, good afternoon. Uh, so thanks for taking my call. I took your course, um, at a local church a year ago, Financial Peace University. That was great. A lot of money I threw on it. Uh, but I'm still stuck on Big Strokes 1 and 2. Um, there's just some stuff wrong I can't save the $1,000 emergency fund, mainly because my income is so low and my debts are too high. I have one line of credit and two credit cards.

So what do you make?

Do you have any tips? Well, it's $15.95 an hour gross, so it runs roughly $545 net a week.

And how old are you?

How old are you? 41 years old.

What do you do?

I'm a technician, so low voltage cable installing.

Okay, well, I agree with you, your job sucks. What are you looking for? What are you looking for to get a better job making twice? Because the bad news is you don't make anything. The good news is doubling it wouldn't be hard.

Yeah, I'm wondering like, what's the trade that comes to mind? Don't worry about giving me a right answer. This is a quick exercise. What trade comes to mind when you think about what you do now from a technical standpoint, putting in that low voltage cable? What comes to mind as a nice little stroll into a much better paying trade?

What comes to mind?

Electrician. Thank you, Dave. That's the answer. So there's a huge need right now, Javier, across the country, and I suspect that San Diego San Antonio is the same way, and trade school is a lot less time and a lot less money, and you might, given your current job, be able to get in at a low level and earn your way, or somebody pay for you to go to the next level of trade school. So when we throw that at you, how do you respond to that?

I have tried that and failed multiple times. So I applied to the local apprenticeship, and I scored well on the test, but the interview They rejected me. They got this instead, sort of like—

They what?

So, and so they're telling me there's a local trade school.

No, no, I get it, but why did you fail the interview process?

I didn't really get any feedback. Maybe I'm too old. I'm not sure.

How old are you?

41.

41.

You're not too old. I don't really— I can't give you a whole lot of feedback on that, although, you know, there might be some confidence issues going on, you know. Where you have to go in there and kind of say, hey, I can, I can learn anything. I'm teachable, I'm coachable, I'm super hungry. Uh, do you think you're coming across that way, yes or no?

So I, I was fired from another job a few years ago, probably still carrying that baggage with me.

Okay, so you're not confident, is that what I'm hearing?

That's true.

All right, can you do the job or not? If somebody took you under their wing and taught you how to be electrician, could you do I could, yeah. All right. So this kind of response here tells me that you just have to get back up on the horse and keep showing up, and you're going to have to deal with those demons, and we all have to deal with those demons. You feel wounded, you feel less than, all of that. But my friend, you can take control of this entire situation by getting a better-paying job.

Yeah. So it's about smiling and raising your energy level about 200% and going, I can do this, I want this, give me— put me in, coach, give me a shot. I'm gonna be the best, I'm gonna be early for work every day, I'm gonna leave late for work every day, I'm gonna be the guy that doesn't gripe about anything, I'm gonna be the guy that you can get to do anything you need to do. You want me to sweep the floors? I'll get the floors sweeped. What do you need me to do? You put me in, coach, give me a shot. And come at this thing with some energy rather than going, well, you know, don't sound like Eeyore in the interview, man.

Yeah, true statement. Makes sense.

Yeah. And I— here's the bottom line. The bottom line is you are correct. It is very difficult to walk the baby steps when your income is at the poverty level. And so I want you to think about what I'm gonna do with my life. I'm 61. I don't want to be having this exact same problem when I'm— I mean, I'm 41. I don't have the same problem 20 years when I'm 61. And so I want different problems. I want a tax problem because I make so stinking much money. I don't have enough money. That's a new problem. That's a good one. It's a great problem. And so, yeah, I hate the government because they take all my money because I make too much money.

You've been reading my emails, Dave?

Yeah, apparently, yeah. Or you've been reading mine, I don't know. But that's the thing. You just got to figure out, okay, I'm going to choose my problems and I don't like the one I got, so I want a different problem. And so I'm going to go stir up some stuff and I'm going to work like a crazy man and I'm going to work weekends and nights and I'm going to raise my energy level, and the way my voice sounds even is going to change. The way you hold your shoulders changes, and all of that is a reflection of— got a little swagger back again instead of slouching in to the interview, because people are reading all of that. So Javier, one of the things they tell us, and Ken's got all this research and data on interviewing, and I just think it's amazingly interesting that a lot of job interviews are decided before the person opens their mouth. Mm-hmm. How you walk into the room, how you're dressed, the way you carry yourself, the way you smile or don't, and you just sit down. And, you know, because the interviewer subconsciously so many times goes, I wouldn't want to work with this person, before they even open their mouth.

And so in 30 or 45 seconds, that's the data, right?

That's absolutely correct. And understand this too about trades.

But that's about swagger.

It is, because they are making a decision not on your ability to just do the electrical work or the plumbing work or the carpentry work. They're making the decision on how are you going to interact with their customers.

And with your team.

That's right. And so if they feel like you are Eeyore, as Dave has so prophetically said here about so many people we get calls from, and we're not judging anybody, we're just, we can feel your energy through the phone. Imagine what your what you're presenting like when you're sitting in front of somebody. And so the issue here is, is when you're in a trade, here's what they're looking for: a little bit of enthusiasm, a whole bunch of hunger, all right? And then the willingness to show up. They need to know that they can count on you.

You ever looked into somebody's eyes and don't see a light? Like nobody's home and nobody's even coming up the driveway? I mean, there's no light in there. I'm not saying that's you. I'm just saying that's one end of the spectrum when you're interviewing someone. The other end of the spectrum is their eyes sparkling and there's a smile and they took a bath this morning before they came to the interview and they tucked in their shirt and they didn't wear clothing like they were trying to get in a punk rock band. Instead, they came like they were trying to get a job. And you know, I mean, this is basic stuff. And you're not— we people, when we go to get people to do business with us in an interview or in a sales situation, we're not entitled to anything. And so you've got to think about everything, all the variables that are affecting this. And then the last part is then turn up the frequency of your rejections. And so I think you've been rejected about twice. I want you to be rejected 26,000 times, and by then you will have landed a degree in the medical field or something.

I don't know. I mean, you just got to get back after it and keep turning over the rocks. Keep turning over the rocks. Something will run out out. But if you don't turn over a rock, you go, "I once turned over a rock and I got bit. I'm not turning over anymore." Yeah, you got to go do it. It's your only option. Otherwise, if you keep doing what you've been doing, you're going to keep getting what you've been getting. It's true of everybody. So we're just talking to the whole audience right now, Javier, but you're getting caught up in that net. So I got faith in you. I think you can do more than it sounds like you think you can do, is a better way of saying it.

And one other thing I'd add, because you are employed now, and you are doing something with your hands and with your head, what else can you do in San Antonio right now as a second or maybe third job? Let's not wait until we get the better full-time job. Let's go work a second or third job with that transferable skill and experience. Because if you were to just double your income, an additional $2,000 a month net, that's a game changer for you. So don't wait on the full-time job. Go work 2 and 3 jobs doing anything you can related to what you know you can do now. That's a huge huge bridge, by the way. Keep your confidence up. It'll get you some financial momentum until we land that $25, $30, $35, $40 an hour gig.

Yeah, so that's a good message for everybody when you're in Baby Step 1 and 2. You turn up the energy. You turn up the activity level. You turn up the number of hours working. And what'll happen then is you'll start to get some actual success, which will give you some actual swagger and confidence.

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That's betterhelp.com/ramsey. Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. In the Fairwinds Credit Union studio, Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, number one bestselling author, host of The Front Row Seat. If you hadn't checked it out on Ramsey Networks, you should. He's my co-host. Open phones at 888-825-5225. Jared is in Las Vegas, Nevada.

Hey Jared, what's up? Hi, thanks for taking my call. I got a quick question for you. I'm in the middle of a high-conflict divorce. We recently sold our marital house. There's $15,000 left in the escrow account, uh, in the pending process. I'm getting $17,000. My ex is getting $17,000. I'm out of money currently. I'm waiting for these further funds to come into my account. I'm $17,000 or $7,000 in debt from legal fees, and I no longer have legal counsel for the time being. So my question is, should I use the remainder of my funds to hire a lawyer and pay off my debt, or should I progress the Baby Steps and represent myself in court and hope for the best?

Well, there's nothing to represent. I mean, there's 17 and 17 is already divided. What else is the conflict?

Kids? Child custody? Yeah, yes, sir.

Okay, well, you're probably going to lose that if you don't get good representation.

I'm already the non-custodial parent from temporary orders, so I don't know what else I have to lose.

And you don't think that's going to change in court?

I don't think so, no, sir.

Okay, so if you're resigned to that, what is there to lose in court?

Now, then, just $17,000?

Well, no, you're not— I mean, that's already determined and split up, isn't it?

Um, it's being pended. So there was a total of $52,000. Uh, we signed an agreement from temporary order. She got $17,000, I got $17,000. Yeah, and there's $15,000 left in the escrow account.

Okay. Okay, and what's, what's supposed to happen? Does temporary order dictate what happens to that escrow account?

Um, no, the— what's left in— I mean, yes, but what's left in the $15,000 is going to be talked about in our final hearing. Uh, it's not scheduled yet.

Okay, so you could lose that? Yeah, you're half of that. I mean, let's say half of that is yours and half of that's hers, hypothetically. Quickly. And if you lost, you would have lost half of that. So it's $7,000, $7,500 on the line.

Does that sound right?

Yes, sir. Okay, well, attorney's gonna cost you that much, right? Um, I don't ever like going into a situation not represented by good strong counsel, um, but it sounds like this thing's already run its course and you just need a judge to put a stamp on it to finalize it?

We still need— we're separated, but we just need to finalize the divorce. Um, I just kind of need—

is the divorce not filed?

Uh, it's filed, but we're in the limbo process with the courts.

So is there a waiting period from filing till declaration, and that's what you're calling the limbo period in Nevada? Yes, sir. Okay. And so there's a mandatory 90-day cooling down period or something like that?

Yeah, I don't know the exact terminology. I do know that we're still legally married, but we have to either go to mediation again or we have to go to trial, and then, and then the judge will sign the final decree.

Yeah. Okay. So what would happen if you called her lawyer and said, let's go to mediation and wrap this 15 up and come to agreement on everything and sign off and get the judge to sign it?

I've tried that twice already and it's resulted in failure both times and tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees with mediators and attorneys.

Yeah, but now we're down to only $15,000 to argue about, right?

Financially speaking, yes. The biggest dispute is child custody.

I thought you weren't disputing it. I thought you had said, I'm gonna lose it. Um, if you want to fight it, you need a lawyer. Yes, sir. You're going to lose if you don't have a lawyer on child 100% chance. So yeah, you're gonna spend, you know, so it's not spending money to get money, it's spending money for my— to get access to my own children. And that's, that's money you spend for sure. You'll regret not doing that. I wish I had— I wish I'd dropped another $5,000 or $10,000 in that instead of advanced my debt snowball. But if you don't have anything to fight about, if you're saying like, look, 90% chance the ruling that's standing now, non-custodial, is the way it's gonna be, I'm gonna lose you've already acquiesced that, and there's no sense in paying somebody $10,000 to do what you know is already gonna happen. But yeah, I'm gonna hire a lawyer if I got a shot at changing the disposition of the children, for sure, for sure. And yeah, what you're learning is divorce, and in most cases other than divorce, the lawyers are the only ones that win lawsuits.

And so, And everybody thinks they're going to get something out of these things and they don't. Uh, so it's just, it's kind of ridiculous. But my goodness gracious, I'm sorry, sorry you're facing that. But yeah, I— if you want to fight about the kids, then you need legal representation. Otherwise, with what you've described, there's not enough on the line to cover the attorney's fees. So I mean, I would call the guy, I would just call the attorney up and go, hey, listen, if I accept the child custody the way it is and we split the— and we agree to split the $15K, do we have deal. That's your mediation. And just call the guy on the phone and do that deal. But if you're gonna fight the kid thing, then you need representation. So that's just a practical thing. It's not a legal— that's not legal advice. That's just a guy who's dealt with lawyers more than I ever want to. Wish I had never met one. Jack is in Miami.

Jack, how are you? I am doing better than I deserve, Dave and Ken. It is such an honor to get to talk to you guys this afternoon.

You too.

What's up? Okay. So I am a teacher and I just found out this week I am getting laid off once the summer ends. Um, me and my wife were recently debt-free. We have debt-free in the house, have a nice retirement over $800,000, and we're building an online radio station. My question is, Uh, she's still working out of the house. She makes about $75,000. I made about $65,000. So we're losing that income. Do I go full force into building our online radio station? Have you made any money at it? Um, I've made, well, we started November. I made about, uh, $2,500 so far because obviously we sell advertising. That's how people, that's how we make money.

Rumor. Yeah.

What kind of radio is it? It's, um, a country music station playing. We play like today's hits, all-time favorites.

Do you need the 60? How much of the 65 that you've been making do you absolutely need to have? All of it or some?

Well, I mean, I mean, if we stayed on a tight budget, we could live off of her income.

You're going to be on a tight budget.

Yeah, I wouldn't put my eggs in that basket?

No, I think I would figure out what I want to do with my life, um, in addition to this. And because this right now is a hobby, it's not made money yet, and you're in a highly competitive field where everybody that's breathing has a podcast now. And so it's not like there's— not like there's a lot of choices out there. There's like a bazillion choices out there. So, um, not against you trying this, but I'm against you leaning on it when

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How are you?

Fine.

How you doing? Better than I deserve.

What's up?

All right.

I have, I guess, like a philosophical will question for you. I'm not married, have no kids. I'm probably not going to get married, probably not going to have any kids. Kids. Uh, right now my will is set up to give all my stuff to my two nieces, my sister's kids. And I've been thinking about it, and, uh, it turns out that there's probably going to be like 4 people all in the family, all funneling their money to these two girls. And each person is going to have probably several million dollars. And, uh, I've been thinking about maybe bypassing— changing my will to not give it them and maybe give it to a local charity instead. But I know that my family is just going to look at it from purely an emotional point of view and be like, how dare you not give it to the family? And I thought I'd get a viewpoint from like money people to see what you guys think.

Hmm. Well, there's not a morally or spiritually wrong answer between the two things.— you could do either one. It's the money that God has entrusted you to manage, and you can give it where you see fit or not give it where you see fit. I would not let the family's emotions be my motivator. I would just say, okay, what is the right thing to do in your heart of hearts regardless of someone's feelings? Okay, what's the proper thing on principle? Possible to do with this, and it sounds like that's guiding you to at least limit how much goes to the nieces.

How old are you? I'm 46. They are 7 and 11.

Okay. All right. Because the answer for me, if I'm you, might change over time. Okay, let me give you an example. Okay, let's say they get married and they each have 3 kids. Now there's 6 kids. Kids one generation down from them and they're a wonderful family that's contributing to society. They're not a bunch of entitled, screwed-up people, right? Then at that point, you're 66 or 76, you might change it back to give that way. So this could evolve and I'm not saying you had to. I'm just giving ideas, all right? But, and of course, you also could do both because you're 46 and you've got how much now?

How many millions now?

I've got $1.5 now. Okay. Yeah. And so you'll be dealing with $15 million when you're 70. Yeah. And so assuming you keep on the track you're on, and I think you will, you sound like somebody that's going to do that. You've done a great job so far. Congratulations. And so you could say, I'm going to leave this much to this charity, this much to this charity, and this much to the nieces or the great-nieces and so forth. And so, or it might be that you're heavily involved with one of them and the rest of them don't even know your name. Then you can do that. I mean, you can do whatever you want to do. And then, you know, at that point, if you were ill or whatever, at that point I would let someone in the family know, but I'm not really going to to have emotional discussions with a bunch of people who really don't have a say in this. And unless you're ill today, I'm not going to fret about having a big long discussion. I generally tell people, if you're going to make somebody mad with your will, go ahead and tell them while you're alive.

That's a fine thing to do. In this case, I don't know why you would bother to stir it up.

It's just none of their business. Well, I don't think any of them are a wrong decision. I just think it would make more impact. My money would just be thrown in a pile of other money in the end.

Well, I would challenge that idea of impact, because if you drop $15 million into a pile of money with other millions, and these young people— by then they're not young people, they have been trained and they're high-quality people— they'll leverage that for more impact than a charity might.

Well, and I'm kind of questioning their money managing abilities when they grow up, because they're probably going to be getting it from their mother, who who is not too good at it.

Well, I don't know. I mean, there's 7. I don't know that yet. But so you can do that too. That's okay. None of this is wrong, you know, so you can decide what you want to do. But I would be open to 2 things. I'd be open to changing it as it evolves, and I would be open to it not necessarily being all or nothing, that there could be some of each and just kind of mix that in. And that just gives you a lot of— it gives you a lot of freedom to think about this and not fret about this. Yeah, I'm not really fretting about it. No, but if you said I'm going to put it all in their name today and then the 12-year-old gets into drugs, you know, then I'm— and I'm all or nothing, then I'm going to be fretting about it because I got to move it back out. I got to change it back.

Yeah, I, I think there's something going on in your gut that's led you to this phone call. I just think before you even choose a charity, I think you need to get involved with some causes, get really intimately involved to where you know how those organizations are run. Not just because, oh, it's a good cause and it's not going to my nieces who don't need it. There needs to be a pretty strong why, in my opinion. Now again, there's nothing wrong. Dave said it well. But if I were you, if I'm leaving this money to somebody that's not my family, I want to feel really good about the ROI on that money.

Yeah, and, uh, to assume that a godly family managing God's money in a godly way has less impact than a charity is an incorrect assumption. As a matter of fact, the family will do a much higher impact than a charity because there's no overhead. Matt is with us in Buffalo.

Hi, Matt, how are you? I'm better than I deserve, Dave.

How are you?

Better than I deserve What's up? Um, so I make between about $70,000, $90,000 a year, uh, depending on my bonus yearly. I have about $14,000 in credit card debt with, uh, across two different credit cards, um, approximately $14,000 in student loan debt. Um, so I guess my question is I have about $20,000 liquid right now. Um, my question is, should I just pay off the credit cards in a lump sum? Um, knowing that that's probably going to tank my credit score. I'm trying to buy a house within the next year.

Okay. Can you be completely debt-free if you write all those checks, credit cards, and everything?

So it would be— no, not entirely. I would still have the student loan, at least a portion of it, and then my car payment, which is not really much.

Okay. All right. Well, number one, we would tell you to be debt-free and have an emergency fund before— of 3 to 6 months of expenses before you talk about buying a house. So that means you're not buying a house in the next year. Okay. And that means it's gonna take 2 years. So what I would do is become completely debt-free as fast as I possibly can. Zero activity of any kind on your credit for 6 months to a year will give you a zero credit score, and you can do manual underwriting with Churchill Mortgage, and you'll get the same rate as you would get if you had an 800 score. But right now you're broken in debt. Right now you're broken in debt, and a credit score is what puts you—

sitting around a Yeah, I'm sitting around like a 690 right now, so not too great.

No, it's— well, because you're deeply in debt, you have no money, and you know, you've not been doing a good job with your money, and now you're starting to. So congratulations. Yeah, but yeah, I'm cutting up all the credit cards, and I'm gonna list my debts smallest to largest. I'm gonna use $19,000 of the $20,000 towards that goal, and then I'm gonna be on the beans and rice, rice and beans budget. I'm gonna clear up the rest of these debts immediately, and then I'm gonna start stacking cash for my emergency fund and stacking cash for my down payment. While I'm doing that, that period of time will run with zero activity on your credit, and it will return to a zero credit score, or, you know, a not determinable is what they call it, an ND, which is what mine has been for 38 years.

Just lots of dumb decisions from when I was a kid that, yeah, you know, yeah, catching up to me now.

And so let's not, let's not worship at the altar of the great FICO in order to do something like buy a house before you're ready to buy a house. House. So let's just get this stuff in the right order and these things take care of themselves would be the right way to flow this out. And so folks, you need to remember that there's one way you get a credit score, and that's borrow money. There's one reason to get a credit score, and that's borrow money. And so what have we been taught? All of America has been taught, go get a debt so that you can go get a debt so that your credit score will go up so that you can go get a debt, so that your credit score will go up so that you can go get a debt, so that your credit score will— that's all this is for. Does this sound like a dog chasing its tail to me? It does to you. If debt collectors won't stop calling and you feel like you're drowning, you don't need another company selling debt relief dreams. You need real-world help, and that's why I recommend Guardian Litigation Group.

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One of our favorite things is when people share their stories of how they are winning. Fan quote just came in: Dave, I love this EveryDollar app. It makes it super easy to budget with my husband. We've implemented this practice since our wedding day. We've had zero money fights because there's full transparency. We are on the same page and winning. Hey, I love that. You can do this too, folks. You can take control of your money, change your family tree, live like no one else. Work the Ramsey Plan. We'll coach you along the way. It's all built built into EveryDollar. Download EveryDollar in the App Store or Google Play. Jennifer is in Anaheim, California.

Hi, Jennifer, how are you? Hi, very good. Thank you so much for taking my call. Sure, what's up? Well, I'm kind of wondering if I should consolidate my federal student loans into just one payment and then also refinance my auto loan. I have a really high interest rate because I've been living paycheck to paycheck forever. And then I recently in January just got a raise and practically doubled my salary. So now I have a lot more.

That's awesome.

What do you make now? I'm so happy.

Um, $117,000 a year. Awesomeness. How much do you owe on this stupid car? $8,000. Oh, that's not bad. Knock it out. Just pay it off. You make $100,000.

Just pay it off.

Yeah, that's— yeah, true. No, really, not—

yeah, I'd really do it.

Okay, so I mean, like, I mean, why wouldn't you have the money if you just doubled your pay? Why wouldn't you have the money in a month and a half, 2 months to pay that car off?

Well, my current— I'm sharing an apartment right now. My current, you know, because I had to save on rent. You were before in July. Okay.

Say that again. So stay in that situation till you get out of debt?

Well, I would have to stay another year, and I really don't want to. I want to move into my own place, and my own place would only be—

Yeah, you also want to be out of debt and quit being broke. True. Which one you want more? I'm staying in there for another year. Pay off that car in 2 months. And what was the other debt? Your student loans. You're trying—

How much you have in student loans?

$55,000.

Awesome. So you could be like debt-free completely in like 15 or 16 months if you stayed another year in that situation. You pay off the car and the student loans, and then the interest rate really doesn't matter. Yeah, that's, yeah, that's true. Live on nothing. Beans and rice, rice and beans. Don't go out to eat. Don't see the inside of a restaurant unless you're working there. Don't go on vacation. Work all the time. Live for one thing. One thing for 14 months, and that is to take all 100% of your raise and put it on these debts, and you'll be debt-free in 14 months. Yeah, okay. That math works. It works a lot better than trying to refinance your way out of debt, which doesn't work. Right, right. What's the interest rate on your federal student loans? Like about 2%? Well, refinancing is not going to be a good idea because you're going to get a current rate, which is going to be a lot more.

Well, yeah, I kind of just wanted to get a consolidation.

I know if you consolidate it, if you consolidate it, it raises the rate because you're refinancing. There is no consolidation on federal student loans. There's only refinancing. And you get, you get to do that one time and you do it at prevailing rates. And in your case, it's going to increase the rates. So Okay. The fact that you have 4 student loans or 8 student loans versus 1 that total up to $55,000 does not change that we just need to pay off $55,000. Okay. Okay. And so, and you got a great interest rate on that. So yeah, let's just leave that alone. How many different loans are there?

Unfortunately, there's like 13.

Perfect. No, that's really good. I like that. Okay. So, and the car interest rate's like crazy, right? Right? It's 23%. Oh my gosh. All right, so what we normally teach is to list your debts smallest to largest, pay minimum payments on everything but the little one. And that would be listing your 13 student loans out, and then you probably— your car is gonna be your largest debt, and that would make it last. I'm probably gonna flip that in this case. I'm probably just gonna knock that, because I want you to knock that. If you're gonna knock the car out in 2 months, let's just put it first. First, and then list your 13 smallest to largest.

What's your smallest one? Uh, yeah, I did that actually. I use your EveryDollar app, so I actually listed them all in that. My smallest one, um, is like $1,000.

Yeah, so see, that's going to be gone, right? It's like a mosquito, swat it. And then what's the next one?

Um, it is, uh, Like $1,500.

Oh, good.

And then kind of go up a little bit. Yeah, my largest one, I think, is like $9,000.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'm gonna go— can you knock that car out in 2 months if you do nothing but the car?

$4,000 a month?

Yes. Okay. If you can do that, then let's do that, and then let's list these others. And you're gonna get so much emotional momentum, A, getting rid of the 23% and then B, knocking off $1,000, $1,500, and they're just going to start, they're just going to start, and all of a sudden you're going to look up and you're going to have like 3 left. Like, I bet you, I bet you by, I mean, I don't know the exact numbers here, but I'm going to give you an estimate. I would say by November you're going to have 3 left, and that's going to make you feel like, like you're large and in charge because you are.

Your confidence is going to go up. And that's my only, that's my only debt. I don't have credit cards. I don't have anything else.

That's my only debt.

What's your, what is your car payment?

It's $318 a month. All right, $318 a month. And then how much are you saving by staying with that roommate and not going out on your own? $1,000 a month. Yeah, so that's $1,300. I just want to leave you with that number as to why you need to wait 12 more months when you start to get gripey. And I understand it, not wanting to live with somebody, but you're, you're hanging on for 12 more months, but you're doing it for a $1,300 raise because you're going to knock out that, that car so quickly. Now all of a sudden you're attacking all this. You need to have that mindset.

Yeah. So that decision alone pays off the first two car— first two student loans that month.

That's right.

Yes. Yeah, true. That's, that's why we went there so fast, because we've ridden this truck before. Okay. So, and the thing I wanted you to do is what I did when I looked— when I was cleaning up my mess many, many, many, many moons ago, I kept looking at something stupid I had done or a situation I'd put myself in, and I used it not as shame or guilt but as motivation. It pissed me off. I got mad. And I want you to look at that 23%, that time that you got yourself in a pinch and you got screwed on a car. Yes. And you let it happen. And I want you to get mad at that so mad that 14 months from now your friends are going to think you joined a cult because all you do is get out of debt.

Yes, the Ramsey cult.

I love it. Yeah, and I want you to win because here's the thing: that's only a year and some change, and your whole life is going to be different after that because you're resetting all these grooves in your brain. All the neuroplasticity is resetting, and so you're never going to be the same again. It's not only you, not only who the fact that you get out of debt. It's who you become during this 14 months that's different than the you version that bought the 23% car. And that person's dead and gone. And now there's a new version of you that's going forward, and I'm so proud of you. And we're gonna help you. You're on the EveryDollar app. We'll send you a copy of Total Money Makeover, and you call us back if you get tired and you get down. We'll jack you up and pump you up again, because I think you got the stuff kid, oh, I think you're gonna knock this thing out. If you're willing to do some sacrificial things like this for a short period of time, you can set the rest of your life on a positive course.

Yeah, there's no question. I'm sitting there listening and I'm just thinking of the momentum theorem, and I'm gonna tee you up to give it to people who are new because there's a lot of new people joining all the time.

We're gonna send her a copy of the book. That's great. Okay, we'll send her a copy. The momentum theorem is focused intensity, FI, FI over time, over T. FI over time, FI over T. Focused intensity over time multiplied by large G, God and his blessings. When you're faithful in the little things, he'll give you more to manage. He will not give you more to manage when you're disorganized, unwilling to sacrifice, and unwilling to work hard. It's in the scriptures. It's very clear. Increased intensity over time multiplied by God equals unstoppable momentum. Dani is in Minneapolis.

Hi Dani, how are you?

Good, how are you?

Better than I deserve. What's up? So I was calling because my 15-year-old son and I have had a debate, and of course we need Dave and the Ramsey Show to settle it. Um, so my son Grady, um, turned 16 in July, and he is adamant that he wants to go get a full-time job at our local hardware store. The second— the day he turned 16. And I, on the other hand, have said, listen, buddy, you are going to be working for the next 50 years of your life. Let's just have one more summer where you can be carefree. What is the right answer? And I have a feeling I know the answer already. Uh, where's, where's his dad? Um, his dad is around. He, he—

yeah, his dad's here.

Yeah, you're married.

Yep, yep, of course.

Okay, and what's his dad say? Um, his dad says he sees it both ways, which I think is his politically, um, appropriate term to not make his wife mad at him.

Exactly. I can tell you exactly that's what's going on. Okay, let the kid work, Mom.

Back off. No, I disagree. I would really— I think the— I think the answer is both. Oh, okay. I think he works some. Okay, maybe more than you want him to, but less than he wants if he wants to. Full-time is different. I don't know if he needs to work 40 hours a week at 16 years old, but if he works 3 days a week or 4 days a week at the hardware store and learns to have customer interactions and learns to have a boss that might not be reasonable and learns to count the appropriate amount of screws in a bin and whatever else he's going to be doing at the hardware store, right? And yeah, I think work is always good.

Teach your kids to do hard things.

Yep, absolutely.

And that's something that I think means that—

oh, go ahead, I'm sorry. No, I, I don't want to beat a dead horse. It's one of the few times I, I, I actually disagree. I think if the kid wants to work, let him work. And, and you've given your opinion. I don't think that your opinion is wrong, but I think that at this stage, if this young man is saying, I want to go work, he's got his reasons, and I'd let him do it.

And if he finds that—

what is motivating So that's what he just really wants to work at this, this hardware store in town. It's really funny, and I should have started with this, but like currently for the last probably 3, maybe 4 summers, he has worked like the end of the summer for a local farmer where he goes out and works, you know, 3, 4 hours a day. And then he goes to the little lady down the street and mows her lawn for $20 and a bag of cookies. And I mean, he's always doing things like that, or like he worked worked for the school where he helped with like the summer rec program.

Yeah, but why does he want to work full-time at the hardware store?

Uh, I think he just thinks it's going to be a cool job.

Okay, he thinks— he, he looks at this as a, as a way to make some money and he, he thinks it's going to be fun. Yep.

And he's really good about saving money. He doesn't buy— like, he doesn't care about name brands. He doesn't— you know, I've always, I've always said that his job is to be a kid and that like he is a 3-sport athlete, he is on the honor roll, um, he's just He's a really good kid.

Does him working at the hardware store keep any of that really from happening?

See, that's what I worry about.

No, don't worry about it. Think about it.

Yeah.

Doesn't really keep any of that from happening.

It doesn't.

No.

And this kid is— he has— here's what I'm hearing. He's— now I'm even more entrenched in my opinion, which is rare.

He—

listen, this kid has self-selected throughout his life.

I know people like this.

I'm a nerd like that. He likes to work.

He likes to be busy.

I've always liked him. And I'm the same way. And I will just say that I don't think you're going to change this. In fact, I think you have a little bit of fear in this because you've watched this young man be really serious compared to most kids his age his whole life. And I think you wonder, is he ever going to stop to smell the roses? And I think what you may be missing, Mom—

and you're amazing, by the way. I love this discussion.

It's a great discussion. I think that this kid kid is smelling the roses. He, he's on the farm working 3 to 4 hours a day while being a 3-sport stud and crushing it in his academics. He's got a different motor than most people. And I'm sitting next to a guy who I have actually vacationed with, and he's gone— he's going nonstop. I was at his lake house one time, and I was exhausting watching Dave relax. And by the way, his family will tell you, and I say that with I love, but it's true. He's got a motor that most people don't have. I could name 2 or 3 other well-named men, I won't, who I've worked for that have the same motor. And all I'm saying is, I think you're a good mom, but I think your son has got his own motor. And in this case, he's not doing anything that is any way suppressing his desire. I think he's fulfilling his desire. I think this guy's gonna be a multimillionaire entrepreneur and provide jobs. And I'd say, let him go, mom. And if when he gets to be saying, I think I'm working too much, then you come in and say, well, buddy, you're only 16.

Why don't you do something fun for 2 weeks? You know, I, I just think this kid's wired differently, and that's why I said what I said.

He gets great joy from this.

That's what we're hearing.

Oh, it's so obvious. Yeah. And if he gets great joy from it, then, then it's not work.

He's helping the farmer for 3 to 4 hours, then he goes and helps the old lady cut her lawn for $20 in cookies. This This kid is wired to do stuff.

Yeah, he's a doer. He gets crap done. I like him, yeah. But I think what Danny, as someone that's similar, I get great joy from working. That's why I'm 65 years old, I'm a multimillionaire, I don't need to work and I come down here and do this because I get great joy from this.

He's got to sit next to me, folks.

Only joy brings him into this.

You're just joy personified.

But I mean, that's the thing. You do get joy from getting things done, from traction, from accomplishment more than I get joy of— I have never in my life gone to the beach and sat on the chair. That does not bring me joy. Some people call that smelling the roses. That's not roses I'm smelling. So, it's not for me. I mean, it's okay. "Okay, if you want to, I'm not mad at you. You're not wrong, but I'm also not wrong." That's correct. Yeah, I'm with you, Ken, on that. And Danny, I love that you're a great mom and you're concerned about his balance and mental health and all of that. Just make sure he's getting joy out of this and that he's not being driven by some demon. If he's being driven by some kind of performance accomplishment demon or something, then Yeah, I might back him off. I might put a bridle on that. But if the kid just likes getting stuff done and he likes learning things and he likes engaging and he's got a high— like Ken said, he's got a big motor, I'd tune that motor up and let it run.

That's what I would do.

And by the way, great job, mom and dad.

That doesn't happen by accident. The good news is they're both sitting there talking about it and they're having a discussion and they're trying to look at life with a good lens and wisdom. I don't think there's any wrong actor in this discussion. Um, it's just good, healthy people. And, um, yeah, it's— I gotta tell you, I would rather hire him and have to talk him into slowing down than hiring some wet wood and trying to get it burning. So true. I've hired some wet wood you can't get burning no matter how much gas you put on it. So true. He's very employable for the rest of his dadgum life.

Oh, he's going to employ a lot of people. Yeah.

Mark it down. Yeah. He's not ever going to say take it easy and mean it. It's so true. Oh, it's so fun. It's so fun. Yeah. We need more of him out there actually in this world. So it's a good thing. But yeah, it just needs to come from a place of health and a place of wisdom, a place of, you know, today when Sharon and I vacation, you know, we specialize— I don't want to be sitting in XYZ city around the world and have missed it because I needed to sit there and rest, I'm going to go out and see this thing. I came all the way over here to see this thing. Let's see it. That's right. So we're, you know, so we're like wearing the tour guide out. They're exhausted, you know. So, but that, you know, I didn't come over here for that. I could have stayed home if I wanted to rest.

That reminds me of our all-time favorite tour guide. Oh my God. In Philadelphia. Poor guy couldn't breathe, we were walking so fast.

Philadelphia, remember that guy?

Yes, that guy. That—

he couldn't keep up with us. He's all-time worst tour guide we've ever had.

Yeah, that's a story we can't share, but boy, it was a great memory. But you know, all-time, all-time greatest. But you know, there's something to, uh, people, parents. If you've got a kid that's wired that way, uh, put some coals on that fire. It's a thoroughbred. Let Let them go.

Let them go. Let them run. It's

good. I love it. Welcome back to the Ramsey Show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. Ken Coleman, Ramsey personality, is my co-host. I'm Dave Ramsey. Ramsey. Ralph is in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Hey Ralph, what's up? Uh, thank you for taking my call, Dave.

Sure.

What's— how can we help? Well, um, I'm trying to get to $1 million before I croak. Um, I don't owe anybody anything. Everything has been paid for. Um, so I'm just trying to get some advice and how can I invest? I've got about $42,000 in a brokerage in brokerage. I got about $40,000 in the bank and I've got $40,000 in emergency fund. And I've got other things that have value. So I'm just trying to figure out how I can get there. I watch your shows and you talk about growth stock mutual funds, but everything I look at is paying 2% and 3% and 4%, not paying, you know, 10% or 11%. So I don't know.

I need advice. [Speaker:ROBERT_LEONARD] Okay. Well, growth stock mutual funds aren't paying 2%. That would CDs and money market funds, high-yield savings and that kind of thing. So, uh, other things that I own— do you own a piece of real estate?

I own the house I'm living in.

Yeah.

No, what's it worth? Oh, right. I have no—

I have no payments.

What, what's the home worth? Well, I had two estimates, one between $489,000 and $517,000.

Okay, so let's call it— we'll just round it, call it $500,000. Okay, so you're halfway there with that.

Yeah. And how old are you?

Yeah, 87. Okay.

And what's your current income? Uh, I, I get railroad retirement. I don't get Social Security, and that comes out to, uh, $39,000 a year.

That's, uh, $3,245 a month.

Okay. Are you living on that? Oh yeah, I, I live about— I take out about $600 $1,200 a month and I live on that. And then I, I have some, it's all the rest stays in my checking. And, um, so I get some bills. I do have a couple of credit cards. I do not, I always pay off all the debt. I don't pay it. I don't pay any interest. Uh, and I have an IRA that's worth like $96,314. Uh, what is that invested in? Uh, right now it's again getting in cash. Okay. IRA gives me about $560 a month. But you don't need it? Oh, I don't need it. No, it's just, just growing. I just have to take out my, my, uh, what I have to take out every year.

Okay. All right. So between the 40, the 42, and the 96, that puts you, I'll just use round numbers, let's call it $150,000, okay? If $150,000 were invested at around 10%, as an example, here's how the math works. It will double every 7 years. So it would be $350 when you're 89, it'd be $300 when you're 89, and it would be $600 when you're 96. That's if you add nothing to it and it were invested that way. What is the need to have $1 million before you die? What's the— just a goal to set, or is there something going on? Yeah, just a goal. Okay, okay. If the goal is, then, how can I better use my money to have the best possible job of managing God's money, then I think I can help you with that. I'm not sure we can get to the million dollars unless you live a lot longer than most people, but you already you already have?

Well, my family's lived long lives.

Okay, you might make it then. All right, cool.

It's just a math thing. I have some other, I have some other stuff. I have about $33,000 in silver. Okay. Okay. That I bought many years ago. Okay. I collect old scale trains since a little boy, and I went to work for the railroad. I worked on the railroad, and I figured that's worth about $25,000. Have you got family?

What's that?

You have family? Yes, I have, uh, 3 children, 2 boys and a girl. Well, I should say 2 adults and 1 female adult.

Okay, right. And, um, do you—

and do they have children? Yes, I have 6 granddaughters out of the 3 of them.

Okay. All right, there's no chance I'm selling those trains. They need to go to your kids. Grandpa spent his life working on the railroad, and Grandpa has the best train collection in the world. They need to go to those kids. Not that those little girls are necessarily going to play with them, but they may want to leave them to their sons. That is a family heirloom, sir.

You do not get rid of that. Yeah, and I also, um, I have a, a, I have a truck and two cars. The truck is a 2000 Dodge, and it'll be an antique here in probably the, uh, 2 years when it gets 25. Everybody likes it, and I'm trying to get $25,000 out of that. I have a Sonata that's a '15 that I bought used, and I have a, uh, a Corolla.

Well, anything that— anything on this whole list that you've given me that you don't want to keep around and you would rather have in investments, you could roll all of it into a simple mutual fund investment with a SmartVestor Pro and it would all, the money would do better there than it'll do in silver, than it'll do in the checking account, and then it'll do in the $96,000 sitting in cash. All of those things are underperforming by at least 10% a year. But I'm not, it's okay if you don't do anything with it, Ralph, but you called and asked me how to maximize And so what I would tell you to do, just go to RamseySolutions.com and get with a SmartVestor Pro. Sit down with someone that has the heart of a teacher. Gently, carefully decide yourself what you're comfortable with investing, which items you're comfortable with liquidating and moving into a little bit slightly more aggressive investment. And if that's your goal and that's what you want to do, then you can do that with every one of those things. And I personally, I'm 65, I would personally be very comfortable doing all of those things myself at 82.

But I want you to be comfortable with it because it's you. And so you need to sit down with somebody and walk through that and say, okay, no, I want to keep my silver. Okay, I don't necessarily agree with that, but if you want to, it's okay. Or, Dave, I want to keep that much in cash, extra cash. Okay, that's fine. But you're making that decision then, and every one of those things are earning 2% instead of 10 or 12. And that's what you can do. But there's no great crisis in anything you're talking about, other than I would strongly advise you to keep that train set.

I agree. My granddaddy also collected trains and just gorgeous, gorgeous. My dad has it and I'm getting it eventually. And it's special. I mean, that stuff is so well handcrafted.

I mean, it's nice. Real nice. And the fact that he worked at the railroad. That's part of the story. It's one of the things, I mean, I'm getting old. I'm thinking about things like that that the grandkids, it's not a dollar bill they need. It's they need to remember something. This is what the old man represented. And this item reminds me of that's what he did, how he did it. And this man's lived, Ralph's lived a great life. Fantastic. Way to go, Ralph. You did good, man. And you're, you know, you're able to eat on what your income is and you do anything you want to do. You got more cars than you have drivers.

Life's good, you know. He's living off of $600 a month. And by the way, comfortably.

He's not griping. Didn't hear any whining.

None at all.

When people hear my story of paying off debt, they say things like, "Dang, that must have been so hard.

I could never do that." And I tell them, sure Sure you can. It's a short-term sacrifice for a long-term gain. But do you know what's really hard?

Working your whole life and never having anything to show for it.

Never having the long-term gain.

Just feeling broke and stressed and maxed all the time.

And sadly, that's the hard that most people choose.

Listen, you're capable of transforming your situation and living a life of freedom.

But you need the right tools to do it, like our EveryDollar budget app.

In minutes, it'll build you a step-by-step plan that's tailored to your money situation. And every day, it finds ways you can free up extra money in your budget so you can get rid of your debt and actually build wealth. So make the choice today.

Short-term sacrifice, long-term gain.

Choose the tool to help you get it done fast. Download the EveryDollar app and start for free today.

The Ramsey Show question of the day is sponsored by Yrefi. If your private student loans are in default, that's a mess, but Yrefi can help you clean it up. Yrefi helps borrowers refinance with low fixed-rate payments and a clear plan forward so you can can clean things up and get back to making real progress. Go to yrefy.com/ramsey. That's the letter Y-R-E-F-Y dot com slash Ramsey.

Might not be in all states. Today's question comes from Spencer in Alaska. We have our emergency fund in a high-yield savings account, but have a question about what to do with the accrued interest. Do we keep the interest in the account, or would it be a better idea to take out just the interest accrued for the year and put it toward our mortgage? We have $65,000 in the HISA, and that is plenty for our 6-month emergency fund. Yeah, I've never heard that question before. I don't think there's any wrong thing by doing that. I've never pulled that out.

I just let it sit in ours.

Because it's not enough to worry.

It's not a whole bunch. I mean, if it's making 3%, it's $1,800. I mean, $1,800 is not changing either thing substantially. Financially. $65,000 plus $1,800 is not much more, and $1,800 towards your mortgage is nice. But I think Spencer's a nerd. Yeah, I'm with you, Ken. I think either way is fine. There's not a right or wrong answer. It wouldn't be something you'd slap your hand on the table and say you're under the stupid column if you did one, and the smart column if you did the other. I have not touched mine. I'm just trying to think what I've actually done. Yeah, I just never thought about it. It's not enough money, right, percentage-wise in the situation to think about. But sure, if you want to do that, if you're really— if you're being real intense, $65K is plenty of emergency fund. And if you're being real intense and really detailed about throwing everything at the mortgage, pulling that interest off and looking at it, but the one at the mortgage is just fine. The other thing you could do is actually adjust the 65. That may be a little much. 3 to 6 months, you've got a 6-month emergency fund.

So that means you need, what, $10,500 a month to live on for 6 months? That's a lot. It's a pretty hefty emergency fund. Emergency fund. So yeah, I might back that down to $50,000. And just, I don't know why you've got $10,000 a month in expenses. That's a little— and if you're down to only the mortgage, you don't have any debt except the mortgage, and it takes you $10,000 a month to live. Really?

Okay.

I mean, Alaska is expensive, but I don't know. Anyway, think that part through. But yeah, I'd probably pull the money off because you're worried about it and just throw it at the debt. And I might consider lowering the emergency emergency fund and throw it at the, at the debt as well. Get rid of that mortgage. I'm with you, brother. Emily's in San Diego.

Hi, Emily. How are you? Hi, I'm good.

I'm excited to be talking to you guys.

You too. What's up? So basically my question is, would it be wise to consider moving to another state due to the financial reasons?

Tell us more.

Moving where? For what reason? Just like another state, like I was looking at Iowa or like Oklahoma, just somewhere where the cost of living is a lot cheaper. But yeah, I do have a background a little bit. So that'd be helpful. Yeah. Basically, I was laid off from my job last month and I was working part-time while I, while I'm in school to become a mental health counselor. But, and the job was in that field, and I didn't really like the job that much. So I basically, when I got laid off, kind of had an existential crisis where I am like, basically, I think I'm thinking about dropping out of the program. And so, and then so I can just work full-time. Um, but it's really hard to find a job right now in San Diego, a full-time job. I can probably find something part-time part-time, um, and I'm living with my dad right now.

I'm 32. And, and how are you paying the bills outside of the, this part-time job? Who are you living with?

What's, what's going on there? Yeah, I live with my dad, so that's another reason why I'm like, want to move out. Um, I haven't lived with him for my whole— like, I've lived outside, I've lived on my own before, but I had some like mental health issues that I was dealing with, so I had to move back home with him. Okay.

But now I'm stable again. All right, so let's go back to the future. So have you determined— it sounds like you've determined you don't want to be in the mental health space as a professional.

Is that— yes.

Okay, it's great news because we've at least said, okay, we don't need to spend any more time in school, any more effort on that. So now we've gotta, we've gotta take some time to get clear, and we're going to help you with that. I'm going to give you a resource in a moment, but the first thing we've got to do is we've got to get AJ be just to get some independence that you're out of dad's house and we just can breathe, we can pay the bills to get us to a place where we can actually be clear and figure out our future.

Yeah. If you got a job today in Oklahoma City, how would you get there? Yeah, I would drive. I mean, you got money to get a rent, rent an apartment?

Um, so yeah, that's another thing. Like, I have some student loan debt, but I do have about $15,000 saved.

Okay, so you've got some cash to make the move and get established in another market. Any idea what you want to do with your future?

Um, I think I want to go into administrative work because I've done that in the past and I kind of liked it.

So great, I think that would be a good move. Okay, and so have you thought about or looked into what is the top of that world look like? In other words, a job that's making the most amount of money you can make as an administrative person. That could either be project management as you move up the level, it you could be an executive assistant for a very high-end executive where you're talking six figures. Have you mapped that out about what all I could do within administrative work?

Uh, I've looked into a little bit.

Yeah, good. That's the rest of you. You got a homework assignment to look at somebody like you who enjoys administrative work. Let's just simplify it by they dot the i's, they cross the t's, they get a lot of enjoyment out of executing Execution, right? I get a checklist, it's clear, and then I get it done, and that really fires me up. So with growth, experience, and skill acquisition over time, you can make six figures with that skill set and that enjoyment. So you've got to start right now at 32. Let me see all the different paths out there in the grand world of jobs where I could go. And you really got to do that now so that we go, okay, I, I think that I could be very excited What does it look like to get qualified to move up? And so we get a plan. We don't just decide to go to Iowa or Oklahoma, right?

Right. Because that has— Being willing to move to another state with a lower cost of living associated with a new job might be a very wise move. But just putting your clothes in a paper bag and throwing them in the back seat and taking off driving with $15,000 cash and a student loan, I don't think so. I don't think so. We need to be aiming at something a little bit more specific rather than let's run to something instead of from San Diego.

And leverage dad. Leverage dad right now for some safety so that I can, A, get some stability and pay off this student loan.

Yeah, for a short period of time. I mean, I would like for you to find something in another city in the next 2 weeks and move. Yeah, that'd be great. But I want you to move to something, not from something. And if you don't have a job lined up and you just load up the car, you're what's known as homeless, right? So I don't want to do that. So we need to, you know, I, I, I'm with you on the existential crisis and the reset. I think all of that sounds solid. It sounds, it sounds like you've really processed that through. I didn't, I didn't hear anything there that gave me pause. I just want you to land on something that is very intentional, the power of intentionality. And winning is not an accidental exercise. It's a series of intentional exercises. And so winning at your career, putting together a quality life, a sustainable situation, in this case starts with an income. Yeah.

And hey, we want to give you— so hang on the line. Christian's going to get you a copy of Find the Work You're Wired to Do. Comes with the Get Clear Career Assessment. Spend 20 minutes on the assessment and about an hour on the book, and it's going to get you way further down the line so that you have some clarity of those options within

that administrative detail space.

It's that time again, folks. Tax season is here. I know some of you would rather bury your head in the sand until April 15th than face your taxes, but here's a better better idea. If your tax situation is complicated, get in touch with a Ramsey Trusted Tax Pro today. That way they can take the stress off your shoulders once those tax forms come in and teach you how to keep your tax bill as low as possible. But don't wait. Ramsey Trusted Pros can book up fast. Go to ramsaysolutions.com/taxpro to find one who serves your area with excellence. That's RamseySolutions.com/taxpro. Hey guys, have you ever wanted to see the person who's calling in on the show that's asking the question? Would you like to be in the room when we answer it? Well, now's your chance. The Ramsey Show is going back on tour and going to be doing The Ramsey Show live. You experience live Q&A, crowd debates, local debt-free scream, even raw confessions. So the team is gonna be doing 4 of these, one in Charlotte, one in Denver, one in Phoenix, and one in Anaheim, all in April, just starting in just a few weeks.

It's only about 300 seats per night. Last year we sold sold all of this out in about 3 days. If you want to come, there's a few seats left and you can still come. So again, Charlotte, Denver, Phoenix, and Anaheim. Grab your tickets for The Ramsey Show Live on Tour. ramsaysolutions.com/events or click the link in the show notes. Jessica's in Rochester, New York.

Hi Jessica, how are you? I'm doing great, Mr. Ramsey. Thank you so much for having me on the show. I can't really believe that I'm on here right now.

Well, we're glad you're here.

How can we help? Thank you. So I was blessed to read your book in June. And so in July, we got— my husband and I got the EveryDollar app and it has completely changed our life. When we actually calculated all our debt, we were almost half a million in debt. And we didn't even realize it. Like, our income is great and we didn't realize wise, um, like what was happening. So, um, we have actually since July paid off $120,000 of that. Good for you. So we're in really good shape. So what is your income? A couple questions. Um, last year we made $268,000. Good for you. Um, my husband and I both have full-time jobs and I actually work two full-time jobs and then I pick up hours at the hospital on the weekends. And we've been really gazelle intense, especially since July.

Now the $500,000, did that include a mortgage or that was all non-mortgage debt?

No, that wasn't our mortgage. We had a home equity loan. So how much was your mortgage? And cars. Our mortgage right now is $90,000.

Okay, and that's in that half a million? Yes. So that's at Baby Step 6. Okay, so you've got $410,000 of which you've already paid off $150,000.

Way to go. Yes, thank you. Yeah, we, um, I just had a couple questions about the thing. Like, I, I know I'm not supposed to, but I wanted to know if I can do a few things out of order. Um, so like right now we owe $6,000 in taxes because we didn't account for how much money we were gonna make. Um, so we already have that in the bank, so we just have to file our taxes for that. We We have a home improvement loan that we're going to do next. And then we have 2 car leases that we are just about ready. And then we're going to pay cash for the Ramsey cars.

Good.

So then once those leases are done, those will be cash. Good. But then we have a $100,000 home equity loan. And I know I've talked, I listened to some of you all have talked about sometimes you can put the home equity in with the mortgage at step 6. Our home equity loan, when we did that last year, we actually did it for like a 5-year plan because I wanted to be— I want to get the best interest rate and I wanted it to be done as quickly as possible. So we're already a year into that. So I wasn't sure if I could kind of wait to then be able to save up our savings instead of attacking the $100,000 in home equity, or not?

That's like my first question. So your household income is $268,000. We always say if the home equity loan is less than half your annual income, it ought to be in Baby Step 2. So, but your $268,000 includes working 3 jobs.

Yep, I work, well, I technically have 4 jobs.

I know, but I'm saying technically your $268,000 is not your real income. This is a temporary spike because you're working with gazelle intensity. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, if we put your income at $200,000, then the home equity loan could roll to Baby Step 6, and I think that's fairly safe. It's okay if you roll it to 6. Here's the danger.

How old are you?

My husband and I are 40. Okay. Does it feel like to you that COVID was yesterday?

It feels like it to me. Well, I work in healthcare.

I know. Does it feel like emotionally that that 5-year period of time was yesterday? That went really fast, didn't it? Yep. That's how fast a stupid home equity loan is going to go too. And it's going to come up and punch you in the face if you don't get rid of it. Yes. 5 years is a heartbeat. That's my point. Yes. So you got to attack it as soon as you get that emergency fund done and y'all start putting 15% away into your retirement. You guys are going to lean on that stinking home equity loan because that 5 years is going to come up and bite you in the butt. Yes, agreed. And I don't want you to lose your house because of this discussion. I'm sorry, what was the question? I don't want you to lose your house because of this discussion. Oh no, no, we won't. Well, I don't know. No, no, I lost my job and the home equity loan came due and we didn't have it paid off, Dave, so I got foreclosed on.

Well, we're great. I'm grateful that we're actually paying like the home equity, our monthly payment will be done in 5 years. All right. That helps. We're not like waiting to pay on that. We're paying that every month as part of our Baby Step 2.

All right. So it's not, it's not It's gonna, it's gonna amortize. It's not got a balloon or a call. Okay. Yeah, that helps. But you see my point? I don't want this to sneak up on you. If you move it to Baby Step 6, still be worried about it. Yes. Okay.

Thank you. Be, be attentive. Okay, I will. Don't worry. I actually, I already told my husband we should just pay it off within another year. I'm okay with that too. Intents. And just because it is our intent to just pay off both and then be completely done is kind of their goal. Yeah. Um, so if we have time, do I have questions about a public loan forgiveness?

I wouldn't bother with it. You, you make a lot of money, you're great at what you do, just clean up your stinking debt. You, you've done a great job. Don't sit around waiting on the government to fix your life. The, the public loan forgiveness is so full of holes, so many problems. Um, it's political in nature more than it is practical, and I just wouldn't screw with it. I would just say, I've made this debt, I'm getting out of this debt. And you know, you're already working 63 positions, you know how to clear debt. I wouldn't be sitting around worrying about that for 30 seconds. Let's just get it done. Just get her done. You are doing so good. Ride the horse. Ride the horse. You're doing great. Just stay on. You're right. I mean, this thing's running so fast, it's scaring you. And just ride it. Don't look for a shortcut. There's not one. Get it. Keep punching it in the nose over and over and over again. She's going to do it again.

Well, there's a question, because this is what we talk about when we do Debt Free Screams, and you hear us ask people, what was it like? When did it kick in the momentum? And when you've paid off this kind of debt in such a short amount of time, and now she's working her absolute tail off, that is somebody you know is going to finish the race because she's been doing this long enough to have some nights where she's probably just cried out of exhaustion or wondered, why am I doing this? And she keeps showing up. That's the sign that someone like her, her husband, they're going to get there because this is hard. That's hard to work that many hours a week.

I don't care what the work is. You're tired. You just get tired. And the only thing driving you is the progress and the traction. That's right. And the reward is that we're making making so much, you know, I can look back and go, that much is gone, that much is gone. So that tells me there's a light at the end of the tunnel that's not an oncoming train. And then I can just push on the gas pedal one more time and go again and go again and go again. But it's hard. It's hard. It's just not as hard as being broke your whole freaking life because you didn't do it. Yeah, I mean, mediocre is really hard too. Average is really hard. Normal sucks. You don't want to be normal. You want to bust whatever you got to bust to get out of normal. And that's what, you know, that's what everything we teach is about that. You know, don't be normal. The Bible says, be not conformed to this world. Don't be normal. Be transformed by the

renewing of your mind. Hey guys, Dave Ramsey here. Every day on this show, we help people work through real money problems and figure out what to do next. Now you can get that same kind of help anytime with Ask Ramsey. Ask your money question and get answers built on Ramsey principles we use on the show. Whether you're making a decision or just want something explained explained, Ask Ramsey is here to help. It's fast, simple, and free to use. Go to RamseySolutions.com and try Ask Ramsey today. That's RamseySolutions.com. Our scripture today, Matthew 6:20-21: Store up for yourselves treasures in heaven where moths and vermin do not destroy and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. Tom Snyder said, Misers are no fun to live with, but they make great ancestors. That's pretty funny. I've not heard that one. Oh, Mark is with us in Seattle.

Hey Mark, how are you? Hey, doing well.

How about you guys? Better than I deserve.

How can we help? Yeah, I'm just wondering if you think— is there a good reason to consider getting term life insurance as a single person, or is it just better to wait until if I'm eventually married?

Better to wait. Better to wait. Yeah, the only reason you would need term life insurance is if you're going to leave something that's a burden to the one you love. And so if you're single and, um, you signed a $25,000 car note with your dad and you died, he'd be stuck with that car note, then you would want to get a life insurance. Or if you're single and you don't have any money saved and your sister's got to pay for you to be buried, well, you might want to get a little life insurance. But I'm guessing, just listening to you for a second, you probably have enough to bury you.

Yeah, and I also have some life insurance through my employer, so yeah, you're fine. I was thinking, yeah, okay. Yeah, I figured since I don't have any real dependents, it may not be necessary at this point in my life.

It's not. How old are you, 25? Oh, 36. 36. Okay, wow. Okay. And, uh, yeah, you just— you're, you're exactly right. Yeah, you just need enough to clean up whatever mess you're going to leave behind. And as you know, we, we don't want to call wife and kids a mess, but that's a mess you'd leave behind, right? And it would be a bigger mess So yeah, you'd need life insurance then, but what you've got through work would— your, your mom or dad or your sister or whoever could take it and clean up your affairs without being a financial burden on them. And so you're just fine. And you've probably got a little on a 401k, or you got a little money in a checking account, or say, you know, maybe you got your emergency fund in place. And so you're just fine. Well done. John Paul's in Topeka, Kansas.

Hey John Paul, how are you? I'm doing great.

How are you How you guys doing?

Better than I deserve. What's up? Hey, first off, I just wanted to say real quick, and then I'll get straight to my point. Ken and Dave, you guys are both amazing. I've been listening to your podcast for a while now, since I was 16, and then every day for the past couple months. Love listening to you guys, love all the insight. So first and foremost, thanks for taking my call. Thank you. I have two questions, but Dave just answered one of them. I think 10 minutes ago on the phone with somebody else. Um, basically my wife and I, uh, we just bought a house. This is our first one. And this is also the first debt either of us has ever getting into. Wow. So my, my question is, yeah. Um, we bought the house for $215,000. It's a very sturdy neighborhood. It's a good house.

It's solid.

We had a lot of help from my wife's grandfather. He's a realtor. And so that's been a huge Blessing. We're just good spot right now. We, uh, we put 10% down and then right after, um, we had signed and everything and we're closing on Monday. Um, I got a pretty substantial pay raise at work. I'm in a new position. And so I was doing the budget the other day and basically my first question is how intense can we get with this mortgage?

Well, if you're— that's the only debt you have, you have an emergency fund, I guess after you closed? Yes, sir.

And what's your household income? Currently, it's with the raise, it should be somewhere around $95,000 after.

Excellent.

And what's the balance on your mortgage?

$193,000. Okay, so you got all excited and wanted to dump all the raise on that, and she said, no, I want to buy a couch.

Not quite, not quite. So argument is a strong word for what I had said originally. Initially, we talked about this last night.

Okay, it's a good— it's a fun discussion. Okay, that's fair. So here's the thing. Absolutely. So you're in Baby Steps 4, 5, and 6. You need to be putting 15% of your income away into good retirement accounts— Roth IRAs and anywhere you got a Roth 401(k), anywhere there's a match, and good growth stock mutual funds. Beyond that, it sounds like you don't have any kids. That's Baby Step 5. 6 is we put everything else on the house. Now, 4, 5, and 6 are intentional, not intense. So intentional means that we're going to be doing some things to have a good life, and we're going to be putting some extra on the debt. And anywhere in there I'm okay with. $5 extra on the debt's not what I'm talking about. We ought to put something substantially extra and get this house paid off early. But that doesn't mean we don't go on vacation, and it doesn't mean we don't upgrade her 1993 Camry, and it doesn't doesn't mean those things. So we still do the basic things without splurging too much on the other things, but also keeping in mind, I want to keep the crosshairs on that mortgage and knock that mortgage out as fast as I can.

The faster you get it knocked out, the faster you're going to be a millionaire. Because when you got no payments in the world and you're making $100,000 a year, you can become a millionaire. And you're young and you got all kinds of time to do this and you've been very conservative in your purchase and you're— I love your numbers. They're great numbers. I think you're great. I don't think you're going to have a wrong answer between the two of you because I think both of you got good sense. Yeah. Jeff is in Denver.

Hey Jeff, what's up? Hey Dave, I am so excited to talk with you guys. Um, so my wife and I are now passing, uh, into retirement age. Um, we've been following Baby Steps, uh, since I think we first got married, then only recently came across, you know, you guys, and we're going, wow, this is really neat. But so Dave, we To cut to the chase, we've saved about $5 million. Way to go. We just finished paying off the house. We really have no debt. But we were listening on the radio today and you guys were saying, well, you should invest and make 10 to 12%. And I'm like, how the heck do you do that?

Well, the S&P 500 has averaged 11.8%, and that's the stock market.

Okay. I mean, obviously you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket, right? I mean, or do you just want to invest in an S&P 500 fund?

I don't know, Dave. That's what— Well, I have my investments in growth stock mutual funds across 4 categories: growth, growth and income, aggressive growth, and international. And one of the ways I pick the fund is I want to pick a fund that has outperformed historically. Historically the S&P. And then my other investments are in real estate that I pay cash for.

And they do way more than 12%. Okay, okay. I'm really afraid of real estate because I don't— I couldn't walk out of a hole in real estate.

That's fine. No problem. You don't have to do it. But, you know, the bottom line is, if you had just had your money in an S&P, in 2025 it would have made 17.9%. In 2024 it would have made 25.6%. In 2023 it would have made 26.3%. That's what the S&P returned in those last 3 years. Those are above average returns. I don't think it's going to keep returning like that. Those are unusually high good years. This year we're flat year-to-date in the S&P with a little bit of a roller coaster ride due to Iran getting bombed. But overall Overall, I'm very comfortable. I've been investing in mutual funds for 30+ years, and I'm very comfortable that I can get north of 10% on average over a long period of time. But I'm not sweating it, but I shouldn't be getting 3% when I've got those kinds of rates of return floating around.

Yeah, I'm just curious how he amassed $5 million. I don't know if he's done company 401(k)s and doesn't understand the correlation of what you're talking about there. He's done really well.

Done very well. Yeah, way to go.

Congratulations, brother. It's unbelievable. And so when you get somebody like that that has amassed, and he wants to diversify now, does he go the just the standard diversification like you?

Yeah, I would. But I mean, it's up to him. I mean, mathematically, that's what I would do. Emotionally, I mean, it sounds like he might not want to do that. But that's okay. You don't have to do it. But you're asking how I did it or why we we would say something like that on the air. Well, that's why. 17.9, 25.6, and 26.3. That's the last 3 years. And so, you know, that's kind of how this works. But again, that's how you can get to an average of 11.8 since the stock market began, when other years you might make 6 or 7 or 8. And, you know, and that drags the average down. So there you go. But all of these things beat high yield savings for sure. That puts this hour of the Ramsey Show in the books. We'll be back with you before you know it. In the meantime, remember there's ultimately only one way to financial peace, and that's to walk daily with the Prince of Peace, Christ Jesus.

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