Transcript of 703: Angela Duckworth - Why Grit Isn't Enough, Situation Over Willpower, How Belief Gets Borrowed, John Wooden's Socks, and How the Right People and Places Bring Out Your Best

We have just opened applications for our once-per-year Learning Leader Circle. I just got a testimonial from, I think, one of the most impressive members in my current circle, Alex Feldmayer. She is a sensory sciences manager, wickedly smart, but this is what she said about being a part of our Learning Leader Circle. She said, our leadership circle meetings are experiences that go unmatched With anything else in my life. The biggest part is learning that we have so much within ourselves to catalyze massive potential, but we often don't know how to access it. This group is about learning how to unlock it, live it, and most importantly, sustain it. With the carefully crafted discussion points and the intentional people around us, it's like being invited to a machine that gives us the tools to harvest our own superpowers. So cool. If you want to apply to be part of our next Learning Leaders Circle, go to learningleaderscircle.com to apply. That is learningleaderscircle.com and apply today. Welcome to the Learning Leaders Show presented by Insight Global. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Go to learningleader.com for show notes of this and all podcast episodes.

Go to learningleader.com. Now on to tonight's featured leader. Angela Duckworth is a professor of psychology at the University of Pennsylvania. Her first book, Grit, is one of the best-selling books of all time, and her TED Talk remains among the most viewed TED Talks ever. Her new book is called Situated: Find the People and places that bring out your best. During our conversation, we discuss your environment is quietly voting for or against your goals every single day. You're gonna learn a simple way to audit whether the room you're in right now is your ally or your enemy. Really good. And then you'll learn why the belief someone else has in you can carry you a lot further than your own. And where to find it If nobody's offering. And then Angela has mentored under some of the greatest psychologists who ever lived. She shares what she wants the next chapter of her own career to look like, and it might change how you think about yours. This is one of my favorite conversations I've had in years. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy my talk with the great Angela Duckworth. I love reading about your mom. You wrote, when I am my best self, I am my mother's daughter.

Very cool dedication. Tell me more about why you chose that specific phrase to dedicate this book to.

I've only written 2 books, as you know, and the first one, I think in some ways was a, an ode to my father, very influenced by his obsession with achievement. Maybe in an improbable way in some ways, because, you know, you talk a lot about talent. I wrote a book about grit, which is not talent, not natural talent anyway. The second book is about the outside game, if you will, of achieving your potential, all the things that you need around you, including and especially the people. When I wrote this book, I dedicated it to my mother in part because I don't think she was situated in the way that I hope For example, my daughters are situated to be their best. And so it's a belated, in a way, acknowledgement that my mother in some ways deserved a better situation than she had. She's now 91, and I actually think that her situation— she's an artist— has improved a lot in the last 10 years. And now I'm seeing all of this great painting and ceramics and watercolors, you know, coming out of my 91-year-old mother.

The story that you opened with was scary. Uh, I don't know another way to phrase it. I was envisioning being out in the ocean with my mom doing that, thinking, how would I have reacted? Can you take us to that moment where you're gonna go try to like look at some cool stuff in the ocean and the guy's like, sure, just jump right in. You'll be fine. You'll be fine, Angela. Take your mom. She's 87. No big deal.

Yeah.

Can you take me to that moment?

I will tell you the story of my poor judgment of going on a snorkeling expedition with my not very young mother, who also had never snorkeled before and probably hadn't swum in decades. And the captain, you know, outfits us with our snorkeling gear, and we plop into the water, and I follow my mom. So it was only after my mom was in the Atlantic Ocean, miles off the coast, that I realized how tragic this decision really was. I mean, it happened in a split second. I was like— I'm trying not to swear, Ryan, but words crossed my mind that are one syllable. I mean, I've never in my life been that afraid. I also can say confidently, I've never had that much adrenaline in my veins that in that moment when I realized that my mom was going to drown, which is essentially what happened. She aspirated water into both lungs. She was unconscious. So this tiny little, like, 100-and-something Wow. 67-pound wet person who would have struggled even if she were awake was now just a floating body. The reason I wrote about all that— and now I've already told you that she's 91, so you know there is a happy ending— is that the situation is like the ocean.

It is so powerful. We don't realize it sometimes. We don't know the water we're swimming in. But being in that situation I think just brought home how all the effort in the world, uh, was not gonna save my mother or myself. I had to change the situation in a fundamental way. I treaded water. I held up her head that was heavy in my hand with one arm. I used the other to wave it around and to signal for help. Help eventually came. There's no way I could have swum my mother to safety. There's no way that grit. Would have saved us. It was a change in the situation. It was essentially bringing to our side people who could take care of us. And so my mom did live. It was a miracle. She's great. I open the book with that because it is to me the perfect metaphor for the power of the situation, and also maybe less obviously our power to change the situation so that our effort is not lost. It's not swallowed as it was when I was flailing about in the ocean, but that our effort is multiplied, that our situation is our ally.

It's interesting that, as you just said it in your response, but grit is not enough, right? You're known as the grit person, the number one person in the world.

I'm sometimes called the grit lady. My students say like, oh, I mean, it's pretty cool.

It's pretty cool to be known for that. Like, it's actually probably a lot of pressure too. I think so. I mean, If I say someone is gritty or they have grit, that's as big of a compliment as I could probably give somebody. But in this case, it wasn't enough, right? It's not enough all the time. And so you can't just grit your way through some of the adversity that you're going to face. And I love that that's the kind of transitional message from, yes, important. Yes, develop it. Got it. Need it. But there's more to it. And it feels like that's how we get to situated in being better about optimizing your situation and having agency over putting yourself in better situations to where you can accomplish the things that you wanna accomplish.

I think you said it perfectly, Ryan. And I, I wanna say that very often people talk about discovering that everything that they used to think was wrong and now they think the opposite. That's not the case for me. It's not that I've discovered that grit is wrong. It's just that it's not sufficient. It's an incomplete recipe for achieving great things. And it's not necessarily a renouncement, but it is an expansion. And the reason I think that's so urgent is, I mean, I grew up my whole life as a striver. I knew I wasn't the most talented kid, but wow, you like try to outwork me. And it was for everything. You know, I wanna make the cheerleading squad, but like— I can't do a split and I'm not particularly coordinated. I wanna solo in chorus, but I can hardly carry a tune. You know, I just worked my way to get to the things that I wanted to achieve, and that worked fabulously for a long time. And I think many people might themselves discover that they can go much farther than they ever imagined by just sheer effort. But at some point, what you discover, at least I did, is that To get as far as you really want to go, and also to do it in a sustainable way for yourself and for others, it's a great mistake to ignore the situation.

And so rather than just making the best of the situation through your own effort, you should make your situation better first. And I think that's been a skill, you know, this idea of situational agency. It's something that I have exercised not my whole life, but definitely for this last decade or so.

The talk about willpower is really interesting. To make it as dumbed down as possible, and I want you to smart it up for me. If there is sugar in my house, I'm gonna eat it. I'm a very disciplined person.

You're actually speaking not hypothetically. You're saying like, this is real. Yeah, this is real. This is you.

So, but this is the power of situation. Very disciplined. I care a lot about health, work out 7 days a week, eat healthy most of the time. However, If the donuts come in the house, I'm going to eat them. And it's like, that's a situational problem. And you talk about how willpower is overrated. This is a quote, of all the ways you can change your behavior, willpower is the absolute worst, right? Quoted from the book. So a lot of us think, especially if we're disciplined, we think, I'll just will it to make it happen. I'm tough, I'm gritty. willpower will work, and the science does not agree, right? It is not the way to do it. So talk about this idea of willpower not being the thing and optimizing your situation is being the thing.

So science affirms your personal experience. The idea that you can will yourself not to do something is not entirely unfounded. I mean, all of us can willfully resist looking at our phone. If I tell you, Ryan, you know, this is like a really great thing I wanna show you, but just look away. You can do it. And if I put a donut in front of you and I say, Ryan, for $1 million, don't eat this donut for 10 minutes or even a day, you could do it. But it is exhausting. I mean, research shows that reliably when you ask someone to do those kinds of things, they tell you that was tiring, that was exhausting. Like, I don't feel I can do not only that anymore, I don't wanna like do anything anymore. I need a nap. And so willpower is the worst, not only because it feels bad, but because this temporary ability to suppress impulses is highly fallible. I mean, how many of us have one day resisted a temptation and maybe the next day, but just eventually succumbed? You know, it's not only food. I mean, just to use, I think, the other popular temptation right now in modern culture, it's screens.

Mm-hmm.

And in research, including my own, Americans, for example, but I think everyone now around the world has like a deep, ambivalence about their phone. They don't want to get rid of it altogether, but many of us feel like we're spending way too much time on it and the wrong time. For example, like, you know, first thing when we wake up, last thing before we go to bed, maybe interrupting our workday, our workflow. So the idea that you could use willpower to resist donuts or your phone is in some ways the most direct and obvious, but the worst. It's a little more sophisticated and a lot more effective to ask yourself, where did this urge come from? Why do I want to eat this donut? Why do I want to scroll on Instagram? And what you learn is what psychologists have long observed for at least 50 years, which is that these urges, these impulses come from our thoughts. You know, you have a simple thought like, donut, delicious, or what is Timothée Chalamet doing today? Like, you just are just, you know, you have this thought and then it creates an urge, you know, to pick up the donut, to pick up your phone.

The trick that I would hope people would learn, and it's more than a trick, but I do think it's clever, so I'll call it a trick for now, is that you can ask another question. You can say, okay, I don't want those thoughts that make me want to eat donuts and go on my phone all the time. What situation could I be in where I'm not going to have those thoughts? In fact, I'm going to have the positive, optimistic thoughts that are related to my most important personal goals. I want to have those thoughts. I want to remember what I'm doing. and why I'm doing it. I don't wanna go to bed feeling like, ugh, yet another day where I didn't do what I wanted to do. That is asking, what situation am I in, and is it the best situation? And if it's not the best situation, what do I need to do to change it? So in this research, I not only say, hey, willpower is stupid. I mean, I do say that, but what I'm trying to do is give you a glimpse of a blueprint for human behavior. Your urges to say things, to do things, and even to feel things come from your thoughts.

And your thoughts, more than you realize, are like the ocean current, incredibly powerfully influenced. And they are influenced by the people around you, the physical objects within reach, and the place where you are.

I love the stories of people mentors, and environments. I mean, that's the through line in this book. And so if you're cool with it, I'd love to kind of surface some of them and riff on a few of these stories.

Yeah, I'd love that.

So Bob Bowman, I remember when Michael Phelps was winning all those medals, he started to become more well-known. And then this guy, I may mispronounce this, Léon Marchand. Is that right?

He's French. So I think if I try, I'm going to—

Something like that.

Pull out my old high school French. Léon Marchand.

Yeah.

Okay.

That sounds good. But he decided, like, I need to change my situation. He's a pretty good swimmer in France. He's doing well.

Very good.

Very good swimmer, but wants to be better. And part of the solution in his mind was to go to Arizona State, right? And be with Bob Bowman. Can you tell me what happened in the power of Marchand's situation and how that propelled him to achieve the things that he wanted to do?

Leon Marchand was not just a good swimmer, he was a great swimmer. Placed 6th in the 400 individual medley at the Tokyo Olympics. So he didn't— medal, but he did phenomenally well. And yet he knew he could be better. He realized, or he intuited, that he had greater potential. He sat down with his parents, both of them former Olympians, to talk about what he could do. And the advice was not to try harder. The advice was not to train harder, to wake up earlier, to stay at practice longer. The advice was to change his situation, which was already very good. but wasn't as good as it could be. So he writes an email to Bob Bowman. And of course, he had known about Bob Bowman, as every swimmer knows, the lifelong coach of Michael Phelps and many other great swimmers. And he asks if he can come over to the United States and train under his guidance. And that's exactly what he did. When he crossed the ocean and moved to another country, another culture, he exercised, to me, situational agency. He said, the situation isn't a given. You know, the situation's taken. And everything changed.

You know, not only did he have now, I think, the best swimming coach in global history, he had a team of fellow competitors who were not just looking to be very good. They all thought they could win it all. That, that every day in practice, you are pushed by somebody in your lane to truly, you know, go to your edge. And so, that was very important. And some of the trivial things that might seem like, oh, well, how important is it? I think are very important. The physical facilities of going to train under Bob Bowman in Arizona, right? So, you know, a far cry from France where Léon was, where he went to a very, very good pool, but it did not have the training facilities that he was able to make use of, you know, the pools, the nutrition, the many, many physical therapists and equipment managers and so forth. So all that actually mattered. Seems mundane. I don't think it is. And finally, I will say that, you know, just being in a culture where being world-class is the norm, not the exception. I think they were all elemental. What happens? Well, within 2 years, Léon Marchand shaves more than 8 seconds off his personal best.

I mean, as an athlete, I think you understand in a way that sometimes is, like, hard to appreciate. Like, that is incredible! I mean, it's just incredible. And he breaks Michael Phelps's last-standing individual world record in the 400 IM. And then one year later, so it's 3 years since, you know, meeting Bob Bowman, he wins the Olympic gold in that event as well as the other 3 events that he competed in, in the Paris Olympics, making him a 4-time gold medalist and also the single most decorated athlete in the Paris Games considering individual medals, which is why he was chosen to carry the lantern in the closing ceremony. Of course, he had the hometown advantage as well, another great situation. But I think to me, the moral of the story is that a great performer is not just talented, and they're also not just gritty. They so need a situation in which all of that effort pays off.

I love the phrase situational agency.

I made it up, Brian. I—

It's a great one, Angela. I love it. I mean, because—

Yeah.

It, to me though, it just says like, again, grit's not enough. Grit is part of the equation. And then the other part of the equation is you have agency in this. I think you closed it by, from memory, uh, it was, what did he do? He got on the plane. That's how you finish it of saying, This is what he did. Like, he didn't have to do that. He was already great, but he wanted to be better. And he ended up being like the best in the world at the thing he chose to do because he had the willingness and the guts to get on the plane. I think this is a very portable lesson for people in general of it is easier to just text somebody or to call them, but it makes a big difference if there's something important to get on the plane and go. My background before doing all this stuff, Angela, was in sales. And, and I'd have like sales leaders, like the best ones would say, hey, get on the plane, go see 'em. It will make a difference even if it's for like an hour, you go do it.

And, and so your story reminded me like you have situational agency here. When in doubt, get on the plane.

I mean, to be fair, he did send an email first, but yes, eventually he did get on a plane and, uh, you know, made the move. My father-in-law, my late father-in-law, in 2 words would just say, show up, you know? Yeah. Show up. Show up. Wedding, funeral. Baseball game. I show up. I do think the lesson is profound, Ryan. I mean, you know, so often people are told you gotta control the controllables. I believe that. I think you should control the controllables. In fact, that's a great thing to live by, a great mantra to live by. I just want people to understand that the situation is included to me in the list of the controllables because Ryan, when I was working on this book, and, you know, it is based a lot on my research, which wasn't just the 5 years of writing the book, but the years that preceded that as well. I would say to people like, oh, I'm writing a book about the power of the situation and your power to change your situation. And immediately, almost before I could finish the sentence, neighbors, friends, interested colleagues would say, yeah, but you know, you can't, you know, most people can't change their situation.

I can't do it. Like, and they would just rattle off Oh yeah. My mother-in-law lives here. Like, I can't move because my mom, like, and my spouse has this, oh, my kids are enrolled. Like, here are all the reasons I can't change where I live. Here are all the reasons I can't change where I work. Here are all the reasons I can't change who I work with. Here are all the reasons that, like, I can't change my boss. Those sentences that come outta people's mouths are not incorrect, but what I think they're neglecting is the list of things that you can change. And if we just assume that the controllables are in our head, you know, our mindset, our goals, our attitude, then I think we never get to a better situation, right? I mean, if Leon Marchand said, well, I've gotta control the controllables, like I play 6th and, you know, what can I control? Like I could think about this differently. I can set a goal in my head, or, but what he did in one stroke, which is to change his situation, changed everything, including the thoughts that were in his head.

So I think if you get the outside game right, If you control the controllables outside, you end up for free, also to a great degree, controlling the controllables inside you.

That list of things you said, Angela, sounded like a bunch of excuses. And my friend Garen Stokes says any excuse softens the character. And it's just like, oh, that hurts, man.

That's a good one.

You're right. Like, any excuse will soften the character. 'Cause you could change any of those things. It might be hard. There might be friction. It might take time.

Might not be able to do it today.

Correct.

Right. I mean, these things can take time.

Situational agency though. We have it. It's on us to do something about it.

Okay.

I love John Wooden. Okay. You know, you—

Me too. I have a feeling we love a lot of the same people.

Well, massive fan of your work. I don't wanna make this weird, but so John Wooden, I just love you talk about him. I didn't even know this. He taught high school English for 14 years.

Can you believe that?

No. And he had like an apple on his desk, right? This whole thing about the physical reminder. So talk to me about this idea, because I'm all about leadership and excellence and high standards. And so Wooden's one of the ultimate guys, but his is all about leadership and mentors. They teach like they're teachers by example first. I remember the story of how the first day of practice, he would teach people how to put on their socks, right? So all these things. I'd love to hear your stories and history when it comes to John Wooden.

So, for the very few who don't know, John Wooden tops the list of greatest coaches of all time. And I say that because go look up a bunch of lists, like, you'll see John Wooden at the top. He was the legendary coach of the UCLA men's basketball team, at the time, a record 10 NCAA championships, and coached many of the NBA greats. some of whom hardly got to see time on the floor because they were really benchwarmers, but they were so good that when they got to the NBA, they were no longer on the bench. I mean, that was the elite level at which John's players played. John Wooden always thought of himself, first and foremost, as a teacher. And that is why, yes, he did keep an apple on his desk to remind him. And in fact, that, I think, is very much related to his decision to be a teacher first. I mean, that was his first job, and for more than a decade. When he thought about bringing out the best in his players, for one thing, he thought it was very much the lessons learned during practice, and very little the kind of screaming and yelling and sort of, like, hand waving that goes on, like, during an actual game.

Which is why it was his habit not to be courtside during games, but to be, like, high up in the bleachers. Didn't want to be a distraction to his players because he had taught them what he had taught them during practice, and now it was for them to make decisions and to perform to the best that they could. I think the lesson that all of us need a teacher is profound. And more than a few of John's players, who of course grew up not only to be NBA stars, but political leaders, many business leaders, fabulous exemplars of character, I would say, is that one of the lessons— because, you know, when you join John Wooden's team and you're an 18-year-old boy, you're really shaped, I think, by those 4 years. under his wing, they learned that to be your very best in anything, basketball or anything else, you need to find a great teacher. And so it's been a delight for me to go down the John Wooden rabbit hole, not only to read what Wooden wrote, but to read what his players wrote about life, about success. And I think that's a profound insight today, Ryan.

I think we're in a little bit of a DIY culture. You know, I meet young people and they're like, I, I will say things like, Why don't you give this person a call? I should tell 'em to get on a plane, by the way. But, you know, sometimes I start off with, you know, can you send them an email? Can you give them a call? These are in sort of order of difficulty for a young adult today or a teenager. And sometimes the response is like, well, I could just learn it on YouTube, like, or Reddit, or, you know, ask ChatGPT. And I don't think that any of those ways of do-it-yourselfing are going to get you as far as you want. I think they will get you somewhere. You know, if you don't know how to play the guitar and you watch a bunch of videos on YouTube, you can teach yourself a lot, but you'll never become a great guitarist if you are by yourself trying to hone your craft. You need a teacher just the way that John Wooden's players needed him.

One of the things a great mentor and/or teacher does for you, and this is from chapter 8, The Pygmalion Effect, is self-confidence can sometimes be Borrowed initially because somebody else that you respect and/or admire believes in you. And so that's why it's good to have a John Wooden or others who are mentors, coaches. And then if we find ourselves in the position of being the mentor and/or teacher and we see something in somebody that we tell them, right, it's so powerful. Like, we can use our power for good to create belief in somebody else. So I'd love to hear you talk about this on both sides, both as the person who maybe needs the confidence and gets some of it from a mentor, coach, leader, as well as, 'cause you've played both roles, I assume, as well as the leader who can pour into others and create belief that maybe they don't even have yet.

Belief is borrowed more than you would think. I mean, the very word confidence suggests that it kind of springs from within, you know, I know I can do this. And in fact, that is what is uttered. I think I can do this, I think, is elemental. Nobody tries hard at anything unless they think they can do this. So I was, um, a moment ago saying that all of your urges and impulses come from your thoughts. Well, if you want to try hard, somewhere in your head has to be the thought, I can do this, as opposed to the thought, I can't do this, because human beings are not irrational. And children and adults do not try to do things that are, for them subjectively at least, impossible, infeasible. Where does that thought come from? I think I can do this. I know I can do this. It so often comes from someone close to you, somebody you admire, somebody whose opinion you might respect more than your own judgment, your— Coach, your dad, your mom. For me, you asked me to think about this personally. I will say that when I was in high school, I was confident in many ways, but not as a writer.

I was like a ditzy cheerleader having keg parties in my parents' house when they were away. So I was confident about that, um, but I wasn't like an intellectual, and I didn't have any confidence in writing, and not a whole lot of interest. But I had an English teacher in 10th and 12th grade, so I had him twice through some, I don't know, fluke of scheduling. His name was Mr. Carr, and he changed my life because he believed in me. So, he saw a writer in this ditzy cheerleader wearing short skirts and planning keg parties. And he handed me books, and he showed me great writing, and he shared his passion. But he, in so many ways, sometimes gestural, sometimes the smile, Sometimes just the time that he would take to read my writing and to write comments and to encourage me to improve it, it gave me the belief that I could maybe write something that somebody would want to read someday. And by the time I graduated from high school, I didn't think of myself as a ditzy cheerleader. I thought of myself as somebody who could probably make it at Harvard, where I was one of the very few students who, you know, all of us have to take, um, and I say all of us because regardless of where you go to college, college, you know, there's that dreaded freshman year required writing class that most students get out of the way and then they never look back.

I was one of the very few students who signed up for a second semester. I was like, is there a sequel? You know, that's only because I had this belief in myself that came from Mr. Carr.

Mm-hmm.

The research you mentioned, the Pygmalion effect, I think is a, almost like a parable for this. So there was a, a Harvard researcher, Bob Rosenthal, who also had this personal observation that so much of our self-confidence comes from other people. And he did an experiment where he randomly assigned young children at an elementary school to be identified as quote unquote gifted and talented by some test that he like literally made up out of whole cloth and just kind of told the teachers fictitiously that some of these kids are, they're bloomers, they're going to. in your own classroom sometime this school year, and I can't tell you when, they're, like, gonna distinguish themselves as being, like, the smartest kids, and here's a list of their names. But they were chosen at random, and these teachers were unaware of the ruse that was being set up for them. But what happened when these teachers were essentially given the belief that these kids were special? Well, they started acting differently around those kids. They called on them more often, they paid attention more, To what the kids said. They encouraged them more. And what happened at the end of the year was that the kids who were identified at random as being special, as being gifted, ended up fulfilling that prophecy.

And it's called the Pygmalion effect after a Greek myth, Pygmalion the sculptor, who so believes that a statue that he has created is a real woman that, you know, the Greek gods help bring the statue to life. And so, it's, it's basically the idea that self-confidence comes from the outside more than we would think.

Mm-hmm.

And Ryan, I haven't interviewed as many people as you have. I really, like, think in some ways we have the same job. I will say that of all of the people that I have interviewed, Olympic athletes, Olympic coaches, CEOs, world leaders, every person that I've interviewed has a story like I told you about Mr. Carr, somebody who encouraged them, somebody who could see farther than they could. And so, I think an important element of a situation that brings out your best is a situation that has not just one mentor, but maybe a chorus of mentors who are, at critical periods, encouraging you to do what you didn't think was possible. Yeah.

I mean, I get like goosebumps thinking of Ron Ollery, my high school offensive coordinator, because he would say things about what I was going to do on Friday nights playing quarterback as if, of course, it's going to happen. And I'm sitting here, you know, doubting it and like, I don't know if I can do that, coach. And he's just like, well, what do you mean? This is like what's going to happen. And this is part of why I love studying leadership so much is because of that feeling. I'll never, ever forget the feeling of somebody else having such belief and then actually surpassing that and having him be so joyful and celebrating it. I want to find a way to do that for other people. That is intoxicating to be able to.

Right? This is like magic, isn't it, though?

I mean, that's got to be you now. You got to be doing that for so many people. I mean, I'm sure you're still having others that do it for you, but you're also the person who has some power and people look up to you. And so, like, how do you use your power for good?

I'm glad you have that story. And I've never really been coached as you have as an athlete, 'cause our cheerleading team was not— anyway, we got— we had the short skirts and the tight sweaters, and I'm not sure we had a lot more than that. But I was coached for a brief moment in time when I went to go visit Pete Carroll at the Seahawks. And I was there to visit him and interview him, but he just sort of— Says out of the blue, like, oh, I want you to give a talk to the team. I was like, okay. And I had, at that point in my life, never talked to, like, an entire NFL team in one room. I expressed some version of insecurity, some version of, I know how to give a talk at Harvard, but I don't know how to give a talk here. And he coached me. I mean, he coached me for, like, 5 minutes. I mean, he just gave me the Pete Carroll treatment. It was like, It's gotta be great. Angela Duckworth, you know, grit, you know what these guys— and by the end I was like, yeah.

I mean, I was practically jumping with enthusiasm at the opportunity. And then, like you said, it's like, and then it happens and you're like, whoa. And I really think it changes you. So I haven't had the experiences that you've had. I haven't had as many, but, but in one way or another, you know, Mr. Carr and other mentors did give me a model for what mentors do. And when I think about advice for mentors, because yeah, now I'm 56. I don't wear short skirts anymore. I'm not a cheerleader, and I am in the position of mentoring, I think, in particular, my students, my graduate students, and my postdoctoral fellows, as they're called. I think one of the most important things that mentors can do, other than just repeatedly affirming to that mentee, that protégé, that yes, they can. I do think that's maybe the first lesson, right? It's like a half-filled helium balloon confidence. It needs to be batted up in the air again and again. It's not that you need your mentor once, it's that you need them on all the days, including the bad ones. But I think another thing, another, I guess I'll say I'm working on it as a mentor, is to share the missteps, to share the mistakes, to share the discouragements.

I'll give you one tangible example. So, my day job is not writing books or having conversations like this. My day job is to transact scientific research and to publish it in journals. And usually the journals that I try to publish in reject, like, over 90% of the proposed articles. And so that means that, you know, you yourself are going to get rejected a lot, and that is exactly what happens. But when I get a rejection, the first thing I do is I forward that email, that really long email that says that my work is both boring and Unbelievable. I'm like, how can it be boring and unbeliev— but anyway, these are sometimes like 8-page single-spaced, like, this is terrible, let me tell you why emails that end with like, sorry, you're not wanted in this journal. I forward it to my team because these younger people need to see me fail. They need to know that I also get discouraged. So I don't try to say like, oh, and I'm, you know what, I tell them I'm angry, I'm disappointed. I sometimes say like, I don't know what to do. But because I get up again, which I do, and because I find another way, and maybe not in the moment, maybe not the same day, but eventually, I think I'm also modeling for them what I want them to do.

So, you know, as a mentor, I think we have a tremendous opportunity to share our stories and not just the success stories, but also the failure stories. And, you know, I think you'll agree with me, those are often the stories that do reveal your character.

And sometimes, especially with all the success you've had, you can become less relatable. And anytime you can—

I don't really think of myself as successful. Can I just say, like, it's very kind of you to say, and I know it sounds like false humility, but I don't actually, like, wake up in the morning and think, wow, I'm so successful, or that I'm influential. Like, I just, I don't, I really don't. I mean, I wake up in the morning and I, You know, look at the ceiling.

But how many times has someone emailed you, told you in person, has cried to you on the side of a stage and told you how grit has changed their life?

It has happened more than once.

I bet it's happened a billion times.

It's happened many times.

And we all have different definitions of success, and I don't necessarily even love that word, but to me, what I would say is you putting this giant positive dent in the world. So that could be success because of the impact that you've had on so many people in a positive way. So I feel like that's a good definition of success, of such a positive, not just a dent, but a positive dent.

A positive dent in the universe.

Yeah.

I mean, look, and you're doing it now. You're telling me, but I just have, do, do you feel that way? I mean, do you wake up and think like, oh, I'm, I'm having a, I mean, I, it's not that I feel like that's an incorrect statement. It's just like, it's not the first thing on my mind. I mean, what happens to you when you wake up in the morning?

What do you think about? I would, I would say certainly there's different levels to this. I have not written a book like Grit, but this is not what I expect to talk about. But I love it that you're, that you're asking this question. The feeling that I get when someone from Iowa just an example from the other day, sends you an email and says, hey, your podcast was our family dinner table conversation on Monday night. Husband, wife, kids. And it brought out an incredible conversation within our family. Thank you. That is like a definition of success, right? And a positive impact on a family. Yeah, exactly right. I call it the juice. And that's what you're always like, this is the juice. Thank you. This is fuel. This is the fuel. So again, you probably have had that times a billion. So what does that feel like? I mean, how does it make you feel when you see the positive impact you're having on families, on people, on lives in general, that you're changing them for the better?

I also have a story. It's, I guess it is a story of what you're saying. And this young man named Beau reaches out and asks if I can walk to work together, 'cause he lives drivable. He knows to show up. He didn't have to take a plane, but he was like, I'm gonna show up on your doorstep. Can I just talk to you about how, how important grit has been to me? And maybe you could give me some advice on, you know, what I'm gonna do next. And so, yeah, I did have that. I like that juice. I think I might steal that from you, Ryan. And I, I, I guess, what does it feel like? I mean, yeah, there is a gratification. I mean, I feel like the, Highest moments of human experience are when you feel like you are doing something excellently, something that maybe you trained your whole life to do, and it is making a positive dent in the universe. It is helping a dad in Iowa or a kid named Beau. Well, he's in his 30s, but to me he's a kid because he's considerably younger than I am. It is that combination.

And, you know, one of the— Literatures that I found myself just fascinated by, 'cause I think it's kind of been forgotten when I was researching the book, was Viktor Frankl's writing. You know, a lot of people know about Viktor Frankl because he wrote Man's Search for Meaning, which in my class at Wharton, I often ask, you know, like, what's the most influential book that you've ever read? And very often it is Man's Search for Meaning. Viktor Frankl Made the claim after he survived Auschwitz, after he went on to a very distinguished career authoring, I think, more than 36 books on what we really want in life. His answer was not money, not status, but meaning. And I think he was talking about those moments where you think, I had a purpose. One of the things that I, I think is really important to remember about this message, because Again, if you only think about Viktor Frankl as like, oh, he survived Auschwitz, and I guess the moral of that story was that human beings can overcome any adversity. The deeper message, I think Viktor Frankl would say, is that to live the greatest life possible is to actualize all of our potential in service of other people.

He called it self-transcendence. And so, yeah, I think I do feel that It's like there's a string in you that vibrates where like, you're like, oh yeah, I'm doing what I do best and I'm doing it in a way that has tangibly helped one other person. I think I've had the same experience as you, Ryan, and I, and I don't know about you, but I can speak for myself. The numbers don't matter. Like, it's not like I feel like 4 times as good if there are 4 dads in Iowa or like the numbers don't matter. It's just to feel like you've helped one person. I think is what any of us would live for. Yeah.

When it comes to defining your core, like, individual purpose in life, I believe my purpose is to inspire others to value and pursue excellence.

That's your top-level goal, as I would call it, right? Like the mission.

That is my mission. That is my purpose. I believe that's what I was put here to do. And so I think anyone's purpose, whatever it is, I think it's worth it to do the work to define what your purpose is. I believe it has to involve impacting other people, actualize our potential, right? That's like pursuit of excellence too. But to me, I just think if you're going to set out to do anything, the juice, like the fuel, the thing that gets you up even when you don't feel like it is my purpose has a way to positively impact other people. And that, yeah, that's what I feel like you've done. Yeah.

I mean, it's, it's a, it's a high compliment. I'm not gonna put myself in the company of, you know, Viktor Frankl. And if anybody wants to read his like other 30-something books and documentaries and so forth, I mean, it's a very deep well. One of the things you'll discover is that this phrase self-actualization, which you just mentioned, Ryan, I mean, that was a different psychologist, Abraham Maslow. You know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, like the top is self-actualization, achieving your potential. And Frankl, and Maslow debated each other vigorously in public and in private. This is now decades and decades ago. And eventually Maslow conceded that Frankl was right, that self-actualization for purely personal ends— you write down all your goals and your personal bests and things that you're gonna win on these medals and these achievements, this is what my resume's gonna look like— if it doesn't have a purpose beyond the self, if it is not aimed at, as, uh, Frankl would often say, aimed at something other than yourself beyond the self-purpose, then you will find yourself unfulfilled. And eventually these 2 great psychologists writing about these topics in the '40s and the '50s, they did come to the same conclusion.

Like I said, I think Frankl got there first, but Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs, if you look at his last writing before he died, really had a level above self-actualization, and that was self-transcendence. And he said it in exactly those words. So I really couldn't agree with you more. And in some ways the insight is obvious, but in some ways not. I mean, I can remember a day I was walking to a talk that I was giving for a group of orthopedic surgeons. Believe it or not, I am not an orthopedic surgeon. I never went to medical school. But I was asked to give this talk by a physician who had treated my daughter and was being kind of honored toward the end of his great career. And I remember when I got the invitation that it conflicted with travel, that I would actually have to like change a flight and like not go to Boston. And it was a pain. I was like, oh, and I changed my flight and I showed up. I like, you know, gave the talk and I did it to the best of my ability and on the walk home, 'cause it was local, University of Pennsylvania Medical School was the host of it.

And so, I was walking home along this river in Philadelphia called the Schuylkill River. And I'll never forget the feeling that I did my best. I think I did well. I did what I do, which is I'm a psychologist and I shared my findings and I did it for the right reasons and that it was appreciated. And it really was for me like the high watermark of experience. It's exactly what Viktor Frankl, And Abraham Maslow, I think, were describing. You are performing at your best and palpably you feel like that is in service to someone other than you.

God, so good. How do you, this is a real question, how do you stay so humble?

Oh God. Okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell you that I, I don't know how humble I am, but I will tell you the image of humility is that like you're on your knees and, and, um, And I don't know if I, that's how, that's the image I have. What do you, what is the image that you have for humility? I have like this kind of image of like, I have this image of being on my knees.

No, I think it's just not being a self-centered person. It's the opposite of being self-centered. It's having emotional intelligence and awareness that I am a person in the world like others. Now I'm gonna try my very best to leave a positive dent, right?

Mm-hmm.

But, With that said, I'm still just another person here. No better, no worse. I treat the CEO the same as the janitor. Like, all this stuff.

Yeah.

But I sense more so in you than a lot of— even before we started recording, like, a very genuine humility about you. And so whenever I see that, I'm just curious to figure out, is it her family? Is it Like, what, what is it that, that keeps her humble? Or, or maybe you even have like a, yeah, an actual, especially like I said, when you, you've, you've had the success you've had, you've been right a lot. It could be easy for people to stop telling you the truth or to kind of edit what they're saying so that I want to stay in Angela's good graces.

Right?

Like that happens as you become more known and, and have the, the type of experiences that you had. So I'm just curious how you've stayed humble.

Let's assume that you're right. Um, so let's just take it as a given and go from there. 'Cause we could certainly debate that. And my image of being on, on my knees, like, this is like whatever, it's the image that leaps to mind. You know, maybe we have different images, but I wholeheartedly agree with you. It is, it is not like letting your own personhood, like, take up the entire field of view, right?

Right.

It's really seeing yourself, you know, as part of a larger whole. I mean, I, I wanna share with you, Ryan, that The humility I have about this book, for example, is in part because it really did bring me to my knees. And maybe that's why the image leaps to mind. I mean, I failed writing it the first time I tried. I had a contract that began shortly after the, um, or around the same time as like the opening story of, you know, the snorkeling. I mean, the plan was that I was supposed to like write a book in a year, which is about how long it took me to write Grit. And I thought, you know, I already wrote a book and that was really hard, so maybe the second one will be easier. And also, just like with Grit, it's my own research, so I'm not really like doing original research. I'm trying to communicate it. How hard can that be? But when I say I failed and was brought to my knee, I mean, Ryan, I don't know that I can adequately express to you how devastating it was to wake up every day 7 days a week, usually before dawn, and sit down in my home office and try to take all my notes and index cards, Post-its, and Google Docs, and like just make a little progress.

And the sabbatical, meaning, you know, I wasn't teaching, I didn't have all the research responsibilities I usually did, was, you know, the clock was ticking down. And I realized with great dread And anxiety that I wasn't going to make it, that the year was going to be over, and that I was given this golden opportunity, and that I had squandered it, and that I had failed. And I'll tell you, Ryan, I called the publisher and my agent, and I told them that I was giving up and that they should have all their money back and tell me if I need to pay interest or how that would work. And you might not be surprised, they were like, well, why don't we consider it a pause? I was like, well, remote controls have one button for pause and stop. And if you wanna think about it that way, go for it. I will say that the adversity, the failure, I mean, the real failure taught me something. And not just because I did get up off my knees and I, I did after months and a better situation in which I recruited additional editorial support and, and mentors to sort of get me back on track.

I do think it taught me something that I have never experienced before because Ryan, before that experience, personally to me, burnout and imposter syndrome, real lack of confidence was an abstraction. And I knew it as a psychological scientist knows it. I taught it as a professor teaches it in business school. I had never experienced it. And now I was experiencing it firsthand and, you know, not eating, not sleeping. I mean, it was really a dumpster fire.

Yeah.

moment in my life. And I think the humility that you might be, you know, if, if you're right and I'm coming across as somebody who is like unbelievably grateful for being here presenting to you something that was very, very hard to do, it's probably from that experience. Like, I would be, I would be just glib and I would be lying if I didn't say that I don't have any scars or, uh, um, you know, war injuries from this. But it did teach me a lot, and I do think it taught me About what strength really is, because I don't think those moments of weakness, doubt are unique to anyone. And I think it has taught me that grit and getting situated, it is a journey and it's not a straight line. So I hope I'm holding onto that humility. Honestly, Ryan, I mean, when I wake up in the morning, a few things happen. I have this painting from my mom. It is literally above my bed and it's the first thing I see when I open my eyes. That painting I talk about in the book, it reminds me not only of my 91-year-old mother, it reminds me of how hard it was to write this book.

And I am grateful every day for having persevered and for being here. I'm like, wow, this is, um, I get to talk to Ryan about a book I have written as opposed to sitting down at a desk to a blank screen for a book I have not yet written. So maybe what you're hearing is gratitude.

That's very cool. I love the way you do it. Well, as you probably know, and I've heard this before, Angela, there are only 2 types of people in the world, those who are humble and those who are about to be humbled. And, and—

I have never heard that before, Ryan.

Really?

I wholeheartedly agree though. Yeah. No, I, I, I'm keeping that one. That's a keeper. Yeah.

Well, I remember it. I remember whenever I get a little bit over my skis and think like, I'm about to be humbled here, something's coming, you know, like I remember something's Something is coming. I'm thinking I'm a hotshot or whatever. It's a good reminder. But I love this kind of shift towards gratitude because I've found that to be a commonality among leaders who sustain excellence, that can do it over the long term. And the type of humans I want to hang out with and be around have this genuine gratitude for what they have and what they've gone through, and they can look back on it and be thankful for it. I could talk to you all day, but I know we're short on time. I have one more question that this is about you, and this is called the Champagne Question. It comes from my friend Jason Gaynard, and it makes me think every time I ask it and answer it. And that is this: fast forward to exactly 1 year from today. Okay? 1 year from today.

Okay.

You are surrounded by all of your loved ones, your mom and your kids, your husband. Like, you're all there, all your staff, maybe whoever. And you guys are all popping bottles and spraying it all over each other. You're celebrating.

Oh, that's champagne part.

You're exactly, or grape juice, whatever you want.

Okay. Got you.

You're celebrating like crazy, right? Picture a locker room after Pete Carroll wins the Super Bowl.

Yeah.

My question to you is, what are you celebrating?

Hmm. A year from now, surrounded by everyone I love the most. What am I celebrating? I think I will mostly be celebrating, and I hope it doesn't sound canned because it's sincere. I hope I'm celebrating them.

Eh.

You know? Like, I think as we get older, without even trying, at least for me, like, there's this, like, transition. I know 56 isn't 106 or 91 like my mom, But I really feel like I'm entering a chapter where my job is maybe a version of what you just said. I mean, my job is to get some young psychologist to be her or his very best and to, like, cede the spotlight. You know, my daughters are in their young 20s. What they can do in the next 10 years is far greater than what I can do, probably, at least in many ways. So I, I'm hoping a year from now, and longer. I hope I gracefully go into this next chapter. I don't know that we all do go gracefully into the chapter. It's sometimes called, I don't know how familiar you are with the Erikson stages of life. It's kind of this old psychoanalytic theory that people don't talk about very much, but it says that life has these natural chapters and there's the age of industriousness. That's where we learn to work hard. And anyway, there's several stages of life. I think maybe 7 of them.

And the stage that I'm supposed to be in chronologically is called generativity. And it really is about asking, with all the things that you've learned, how can you help the next generation do better than you've done? I hope that that's where I am, you know, not just a year from now, but longer. I, I see stories of it like that not happening, and I really don't want that to happen. Like, my students should excel me. They should be better than me. They should be on podcasts. They should be interviewed by people like you. I, hope to step out of the limelight.

Really?

Yeah.

Would you miss that?

I, I think so. But can you imagine just like hanging on and just being like, you know—

You're still like, you're literally in the middle of your prime though.

Well, no, I'm not retiring, Ryan, but—

That's what I'm saying. Like, you'd be in the spotlight.

Yeah, yeah. But can't I, can't I even now, I mean, arguably in the prime of my career, right? I forget things, but the brain is still working, right? So, but can't I begin to think for every project, how does this, in the way, by the way, I think that comes natural to coaches, how can this project not only bring out the best in this person, but can it be a real step toward their becoming great? I think that center of gravity is really where my energy should be. By the way, the work's gonna get done. 'Cause all these great people are gonna do it. But I think it is different from when you are proving yourself. The weight is on your shoulders, the light is on you. Yeah. I mean, I don't think it's too early to try to make the people that I'm mentoring more important than I am. Do you think it's too early?

I, I don't think it's an either or. I think it's an and thing because your door is gonna be continually beaten down to have you come speak.

Oh, I don't know, Ryan. You never know.

I do not believe you if you're telling me that's not happening. I just do not.

Okay, well, I'll let you know in a year, but yeah, the door—

Especially with the new work, because you have the combo Grit's Not Enough. You have the combo with the Situated Too that, yeah, I just think there's just no way that it's not going to continue to happen probably for quite a long time. So really it's just about your preference and choice and how much you want to travel and do all that stuff. Do you like getting up on stages and speaking? Like, is that a fun thing for you to do?

I bet you do. And I do too, right? I'm right about you. You like it because it just feels incredibly gratifying. Like you're in the flow state.

Austin Kleon told me, like, people love, love getting to experience someone who is fully activated. And I think being on stage is one of those things because you can see the head nods and the eyes. You do occasionally have the side of the stage Conversations where people get emotional. And that is called full activation mode, making a positive dent, making a difference, living in purpose. What's better than that?

It's like all the arrows are lined up and they're all going the right way.

That's you, though. You like that? I have to say that.

Yeah, I do. How much do you do it? Okay, well, I'll answer the question of how often I do it, but I just want to say, when I was a little girl, I mean, I'm old enough to have watched Donny and Marie Osmond. And I remember saying out loud what I thought was obvious was like, I wanna be there. My parents didn't understand. They were like, what do you mean? I was like, I wanna be Marie Osmond. I wanna be the one like dancing around in a skirt and holding a microphone. And it's not 'cause I had a whole lot of talent and never pursued that, by the way. But yeah, I guess I must love to be on stage in a very deep way that goes all the way back. Right now I, well, I teach at Wharton. Um, so I'm on stage in front of my classroom. In terms of like giving talks to audiences, like maybe once or twice a month. I try to do it not as often as I'm asked because, Ryan, I think my identity— there's our top-level goal. I agree with you. It's very worthwhile to write it down and take the time to really hone those words because it will be clarifying not only to others, but to you.

I think reflecting on like who we are at our core My core identity professionally is as a psychological scientist and not as a speaker and not even as a book writer, but somebody whose job it is, is to produce insights about human nature. So the time on stage is for me often the flow state, and I do feel fulfilled 'cause I feel like I'm making a positive dent in the universe and I've done it and I've gotten a lot of reps and I feel like I'm not bad at it. But if you took away my research and you said, okay, imagine a world where that's all you did, that would not be who I am.

Hmm. Yeah. It's an and thing.

Yeah.

It's a great combo of things though. It's very cool.

Thank you.

This is so much fun. The book's called Situated: Find the People and Places That Bring Out Your Best. Not surprising. It's, it's gonna go crazy once this thing gets out.

Ryan, you are too kind. Seriously. You're like, now I feel like I'm 10 feet tall, but Good. Thank you. You're, you're, I feel like I'm with Pete Carroll.

Well, thanks. He's awesome. I'm just telling you exactly what I think and believe, and, and I appreciate you letting me chase down my curiosity with great rigor today because you're, you're someone I've looked up to for a very long time. And people say you shouldn't meet like your heroes, but you know, I've found that it's cool when those people are wrong. And so, uh, thank you so much for doing this. I would love to keep doing it and doing it like, oh my gosh.

Yeah.

Every certain amount of time that goes by, I would, it would be fun to just, just kind of see where you're at because we could, I literally had probably another 15 stories from your book that we did not talk about. So the book is packed with—

Well, I had like 20 questions for you that I suppressed because I was like, I'm supposed to be talking about my book, so I probably shouldn't be asking Ryan what he thinks.

Let's talk about my business. Those are the best conversations though, right?

That's the best. Those are the best. I should have asked them.

No, no, no, no. Like what we just did is the best. It's my favorite thing to do. So thank you for letting me—

Oh, it's so fun.

Kind of run it.

This is so much fun.

And like I said, I'd love to get to do our dialogue as we both progress.

100%. It's good to meet your friends. So, I don't want to consider myself a hero, but, um, yeah, no, this was like 100% fun. Thank you for everything, your curiosity, and also like you were really prepared. And as we all know, that is so much of a good experience. So anyway, I appreciate it. Thank you.

It means a lot. the Podcast Club. Thank you for being a member of the End of the Podcast Club. If you are, send me a note, ryan@learningleader.com. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with the legendary Angela Duckworth. A few takeaways from my notes: audit one goal you're grinding on and ask whether it's an effort problem or a situational problem. If you've been trying harder for months with nothing to show, maybe You should change something outside of yourself. That could be the room, the people, or the routine. Again, it's all about the situation and our personal situational agency. Love that phrase. And then how about the Marchand move?

Right?

He's doing great in France, one of their best swimmers, and yet he decides to make a move to put himself in a better environment with a better coach, better systems, better teammates, right, that would force him to level up. So in your life, identify the person who is best in the world at what you are trying to learn and take a step towards them, even if it's just initially one email. But then let's take the next step and get on the plane and go see them. And then purpose. I love this part of the conversation with Angela. Write down your own purpose. I stated that mine is to inspire others to value and pursue excellence. It's all about actualizing our potential. I ask you, what is your purpose? What type of impact are you trying to have on other people? Once again, I want to say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leaders Show with Angela Duckworth. I think she'll help you become a much more effective leader because you continue to do that. And you also go to Spotify and Apple Podcasts and you subscribe to the show.

You rate it hopefully 5 stars. You write a thoughtful review. By doing all of that, you are giving me the opportunity to have the conversation like this, which is one of the coolest I've ever had. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.