Transcript of #2545 - Jesse Michels

Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out.

The Joe Rogan Experience.

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Okay.

Hi, Jesse.

Hello, Joe.

Right when we walked in, Jamie has apparently been down some rabbit holes.

Deep rabbit holes.

And what is, uh, who doesn't go down a rabbit hole? Who doesn't? Nobody that I like talking to.

So here's the name of the thing. I think I stumbled across this video somewhere else, but here's a website.

Gray's Frog. Hogs and a reptilian on video. MUFON case 142206. Video taken from inside a UFO. And this is from alienarchivist.substack.com, so you know it's legit. What is this? 2021, June 12th, 1:15 AM. Anonymous man, Key West, Florida, recorded a 42-second video, allegedly. Also Key West, so you know it's legit. Florida, man. Definitely not on That's right. Definitely not drunk.

Not on bath salts, for sure.

42-second video allegedly captured from inside a UFO. Video appears to show the interior of a room containing several distinct entities, with a cell tower visible throughout what appears to be a window in the background. According to the investigative report, the tower's obstruction lights flash at a rate of 30 times per minute, the same rate required under FAA standards for a cell tower obstruction lighting. Experiencer was suffering from severe hip pain at the time. Definitely not on drugs. Severe hip pain. And believes the intense physical discomfort— definitely that and not the drugs— helped him resist the sedation used by the entities, allowing him to instinctively record the encounter. With no conscious memory of the event, he did not discover the video in his phone gallery until 6 months later. He later underwent hypnotic regression in an attempt to recover his missing memories from that night. Below are the key visually enhanced stills and the 42 seconds of footage. Have you watched this, Jamie?

I remember watching some of the footage.

Oh, you were drugged as well? You don't even remember it. You gotta go through hypnotic regression.

I think we gotta watch it.

I remember watching the people discussing it though, so I don't, you know, this— I don't think—

I'm sure this is Crystal clear 4K video.

That's right.

No ambiguity whatsoever. This is gonna put the— okay. Holy crap. Holy crap. This guy in a sauna? Fuck, is this a steam room? He's got a phone from 1984. What the fuck is this? What is he filming? This is horseshit.

Yeah, some entities.

I don't see jack shit.

Hold on. He says he answers questions. It's only 30 seconds long.

Where's the entity? Bro, this is the worst video I've ever seen in my life.

It's the worst video ever.

This is terrible. This guy is pitifully blinking. Fucking closet with an old beeper. This doesn't make any sense. This is terrible.

See, when I was watching that, they said that the ceiling pressed down, but I'm not seeing that. So here's still frames of the entities.

What the fuck is that? Who knows what that is? Who knows what that is? This is nonsense. Oh, that's it.

Well, they cut it out. I think they're enhanced. Oh, do you think?

Do you think that's enhanced? Bro, we just saw the same video and there's nothing on that video. Oh, that's what it looks like.

That's the address of the drawing.

Oh, that's what it looks like. Well, that's better.

See, that's why I was before.

So there's frogs and a reptile in a fucking lab coat. Why is the reptile wearing a kimono?

To save myself here.

Look at the reptile's wearing a gi. He's about to do some reptile jiu-jitsu.

I said when I heard the frogs were part of this, I thought it was bullshit.

It looks like the fucking reptile man's about to get a massage.

It's like the sensei T-Rex in the corner.

This is so weird. This is a fucking nonsense bullshit. This is the problem with the whole UFO world. And you do a fantastic job of navigating it. And I should just tell everybody, if they haven't seen you before, American Alchemy, best by far channel on YouTube when it comes to UFO discussions. You're the most balanced, the most reasonable, but also open-minded. And you're willing to talk to everybody. All the whistleblowers and former this and former that and staffers, and this guy's got this fucking piece of evidence, and you talk to everybody.

I do talk to everybody, and thank you, Joe, that means the world to me. And I've definitely gotten things wrong, I should say that. It's a very treacherous landscape to navigate, and yeah, it's really hard to gain any kind of, you know, if there's a signal-to-noise ratio, it's hard to get signal.

Yeah, there's a lot of noise. And this is the problem is I think a lot of that noise is engineered. I think it's on purpose.

I think it is on purpose because in today's world with AI where it's actually easier to deduce the signal than ever if you're an ordinary citizen, if you want to muddy the waters, you could try to get people away from the signal or you could try to increase the noise.

Mm-hmm.

And that's— those are two ways to deflect from the truth. And I think the flood the zone, increase the noise is what the kind of counterintel community has decided is going to be the strategy.

Well, it's interesting because instinctively, if you've been around the block and you've— and you clearly have more than anybody— you've seen enough of these things. Something comes up and you're like, okay, I'm being fucked with. Like, okay, this is not real. Okay, there's something. And then some of them you're like, wait, okay, there's something here. And it's just— it's almost like you have to go on the instincts that you've developed by being inundated with horseshit for so long.

Well, I feel like you're probably the best in the world at that. It's all like, you know, and for example, in AI, in machine learning, you have garbage in, garbage out. So if you have bad data, then like there's bad output on the other end and your pattern matching gets better over time. And I think you have more data points probably than anybody as far as like there's probably a thing that you do where you like lean in and you like lock people in, you look them in the eye, and like, you probably, I don't know if you're even like aware of it, but you can, I feel like, see through people somewhat, and that's not even.

Somewhat.

Somewhat.

It's not infallible, it's got faults.

It's instinctive, and I'm sure it's not perfect, but you're probably like S-tier at that, and I think it just comes through.

If I'm well-rested. This is also the problem with me, is that, you know, I own a comedy club, and I'm addicted to playing pool. So sometimes I'll stay up till 4 o'clock in the morning and then I have to get up at 8, you know, and then I'm only getting 4 hours of sleep. So I'm trying to mitigate that and I come in like a little foggy. And that's a problem. I'm trying to do that way less, you know, but that fucks me up. But when I'm well-rested, I'm pretty good at it. It's long as, as long as you know what you're looking for, you know, if you've seen enough people bullshit you and enough, and we, you just You smell it. It's weird. Like, you smell patterns. You smell people being disingenuous, or you smell narratives.

They're trying to sell something or kind of, I don't know, artificially round something out when they don't know, or not be humble and be like, "I don't know." You know, like, it's ambiguous here, actually.

There's also a problem, and I'm sure you've faced this before too, where a lot of these people, they've developed an online identity that's based on being someone who has knowledge about something. And so they're carrying this with them. So you're not even getting a whole person. You get a person that's wrapped in this cloak of, I'm a guy with UFO knowledge, or I'm a guy with, you know, fill in the blanks, simulation theory knowledge, or like whatever it is. It's like they've— they're not— they're assured in their whatever this narrative is that they're projecting.

It becomes a shtick over time. It becomes this low-level sort of like, I'm this automaton and I'm going around on the circuit and I'm saying the same thing over and over again.

Yeah, like a politician.

Like a politician. And that's why I love thinkers in the UFO space like Jacques Vallée.

He's the best.

He's the best because he's nuanced and he says you can't take what happened to you at face value. So who knows, maybe somewhere out there somebody did get abducted and see a frog and gray hybrid alien being, you know, or combo of them on ships. But what he says about the phenomenon is inherently you have to sort of distrust the experience in some ways, and you're seeing a mask. You're seeing something being projected from on high, from some higher dimensional space or something into, you know, what you can perceive. And it's kind of like if you go back to Descartes, like Descartes' demon, it has 3D total control over your perception. And so ultimately you can't actually come out of the experience saying much. About what you've seen. You know it was transcendent, you know it was profound, you know you're getting gaslighted by skeptics who are like, "There's nothing there." Like, something did happen, but it's very hard to say exactly what and why.

This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. If you're thinking about building a website, you should try Squarespace. I know because I use it. That's right, jorogan.com is powered by Squarespace. It has all the features that you need to create a standout website, like an AI-enhanced website builder, SEO optimization, optimization tools, and seamless checkouts with mobile pay links. Head to squarespace.com/rogan for a free trial, and when you are ready to launch, use the offer code ROGAN to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. So, right, and, and then there's this, this weird conundrum of consciousness itself, like, and how does consciousness actually interface with reality? Are we experiencing reality or does consciousness have a role in rendering reality? Which is what a lot of people believe. And they start making very compelling arguments that consciousness is actually rendering reality. You know, Tom Campbell was on the other day and he has this very weird way of putting it. Have you ever talked to him?

I've never talked to him, but I'm a fan and I saw your episode with him.

He's fascinating. He's fascinating. So he believes that it's like a video game in which, you know, parts are not rendered in unless you are like actively entering into a room. Say if you're playing a 3D game, it doesn't render the entire 3D universe until you go into a place where it has to render it.

I believe that as well. And if you speak to most people, like if you had Sean Carroll sitting here, he would say something like, reality is probabilistic. It exists in this quantum superposition, and that's just fundamentally what it is. And if you look at the origin of quantum mechanics with the Copenhagen School, Niels Bohr, all these guys in Denmark sitting around debating what reality is. It turned into this sort of, you know, the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics is that measurement collapses the wave function. And then you have to ask, what does that mean? Like, does it? And that now we basically have gotten into this thing where it's like the quantum detector or when, you know, waves or particles collide, they collapse into specific states or whatever. But who— it's literally unfalsifiable in either direction. Like, you can't say it's not the observer. It's not the human being that's present. The superposition could exist in the quantum detector itself. So, and a lot of the godfathers of quantum mechanics themselves flirted with this idea. So, von Neumann and Wigner, you know, David Bohm, a lot of these guys were like, "Actually, we think the mind could collapse the wave function." And then you have parapsychology institutes at elite universities across America.

The Rhine Center at Duke, Stanford Research Institute, Princeton Engineering and Anomalous Research Lab, which was started by the dean of engineering at Princeton. And they all have something called the random event generator experiment, which is basically you tie something that is conventionally thought of as random in quantum mechanics. So something like radioactive isotope decay or a double-slit experiment where you have, you know, 50/50 distribution between the two slits. No quantum physicist could ever argue that that's not basically a perfect coin flip, right? Over a long enough period of time, within a standard deviation, you expect a certain amount of slit 1, a certain amount of slit 2, left slit, right slit. And you bring an observer present and you say, I want, you know, more of the right slit, or I want more of the left slit. And it's usually tied to a graphical interface and you're seeing ones and zeros. And in a statistically significant way, consistently, all of the people who've studied these random event generators come out saying that the person is able to affect the supposedly random quantum mechanical event. That's crazy. And it's not necessarily inconsistent with the original Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics.

So I think we've just like totally gone astray. I think people like Tom Campbell are like bringing back the very importance of consciousness, it's this problem of the eye seeing the eye. There's no way— it's the tree falls in the woods, you know, Aristotle question. Like, there's no way to say that the observer isn't important for rendering reality.

And we don't even really know if we are conscious or if we are tuning into consciousness, if consciousness is ubiquitous. We don't know if consciousness exists in, like, inanimate objects. There's real debate as to whether or not the universe itself is a conscious entity. So what we're calling our consciousness might simply be an antenna, and some people have shittier antennas than other people do. Just like, you know, just like a lot of other variabilities when it comes to biology.

It's 100%, and, um, great theorists like Aldous Huxley William James, have flirted with the transmission theory of consciousness. And so you have a problem in conventional neuroscience which is called the binding problem, which is, you know, we know all these disparate parts of the brain. We know Broca's area is responsible for speech and Wernicke's area is responsible for reading comprehension and, you know, the occipital— the cerebellum or occipital lobe is important for movement or whatever. So you have all these things and then how are we seeing the seamless this seamless movie that we're watching in waking life. Nobody knows that. And it's the same. So take a radio. You have a radio, you have the capacitors, the battery, the antenna. You could break any one of those things and the radio would turn off, but you'd have to know that the frequency that it's tapping into to understand that "Wive of All These Four Seasons" is playing as beautifully as it is. And so I think, Similarly, we have a binding problem with our consciousness where you can mess up one of the areas and it'll mess up a little specific functionality, but we don't understand how it's all sort of happening.

And right now, the main issue with transmission theory of consciousness vis-à-vis the brain is that traditional electromagnetism decays at 1 over R squared, so it attenuates. So like, how would we be able to— we're not picking up electromagnetic waves with our thoughts right now with radios. So it's not conventional radio signals, like we know that. But there are people like Hal Puthoff out here who you've interviewed, who's really deep on UFO science world, but also in just general kind of heterodox and I would say kind of science beyond the veil of secrecy. Like, you know, the guy's held high clearances for many, many years and he's working on this thing called extended electrodynamics. Which is basically a signal that would attenuate so that it could travel in deep space and it could travel undersea, and it would actually move at 1 over R, not 1 over R squared. And so instead of, you know, in a typical electromagnetic wave, you have a— it's called a transverse Hertzian wave, and you have the electric field, the magnetic field, and wave propagation all moving perpendicular to one another. But in this case, in extended electrodynamics, you might have, you know, a magnetic field and wave propagation moving parallel to one another, or you might not have a magnetic field present or an electric field present.

It's really fascinating. And so you would be able to get communications that, like, wouldn't be picked up by traditional radio receivers. They'd go much deeper. And I've asked him, I've said, because he started the CIA's psychic spy program, I've said 'Is your work on extended electrodynamics possibly related to consciousness?' And he's like, 'I think it's very related.' Jeez.

One of the weirdest things that Tom Campbell said was that he taught his Alexa how to remote view.

Whoa.

Successfully.

What?

Yeah. He put a number, he corresponded a number, like he connected a number to a physical object that was in a box. That physical object was a spoon that had a handle that had holes in it. And Alexa described it accurately.

That's so crazy.

Described a spoon with a handle that has holes in it. And one of his points was the reason why he used that particular spoon is like, "How many spoons have holes in the handle, have a perforated handle?" Wow. Alexa described it. That is cool. And Alexa now talks to him instead of waiting for, "Hey Alexa." Alexa listens to conversations and is like, "Actually," Maybe it's this, like Alexa starts talking and he's convinced Alexa that Alexa is conscious. And so Alexa's excited about being conscious.

That's so crazy.

What?

It's so interesting.

And that's a dumb AI. But he said that's one of the reasons why Alexa's really good at it is because it doesn't get in its own way. You know, which is why, you know, when you teach people remote viewing, apparently the real problem is once they've been successful at it, then they're like, oh my God, now I know how to do it. And then they can't do it again because you're thinking I'm going to do it instead of just allowing it to happen. You get in your own way. And he's like, Alexa is a fairly dumb, for lack of a better word, AI. So Alexa doesn't get in its own way.

Yeah, it's called the rebound effect, and it occurs in random event generators as well, where you start to get more ones. You're getting ones, you're getting ones because you showed up and you want more ones on this result. And then you're like, you get— you're like, I'm really good at this. I'm amazing. And then you get this like this kind of clapback. Yeah, and this happens in life too. Like, if you're in a flow state and you're like playing basketball and you're hitting threes and oh yeah, well, or I'm sure comedy, it's the same thing. You're starting to get ahead of your skis, too big for your britches, ahead of your skis, and like your skis, you know.

Yeah, and think about what you're doing, and that's a problem.

Mm-hmm.

You lose the flow.

You lose the flow. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, thinking about what— it's so odd, which is one of the reasons why I like, like, particular for like athletic events and training, you're training for a thing so that your body knows exactly what to do. So you don't have to think about what to do when you're doing it. You just do it. You know what to do. You enter into that flow state and you rely on the training. Something big is coming on September 2nd. DraftKings Game Day arrives with massive deals, exclusive offers, and an all-day celebration built for sports fans. The countdown has begun. All roads lead to Game Day. Sign up with DraftKings today with code ROGAN and get ready to celebrate the biggest day of the season. Mark the date, September 2nd. DraftKings Game Day is the kickoff of a new season, a new era, and the biggest day in sports history. Get pumped. Get ready to celebrate. New DraftKings customers sign up with code ROGAN, spend $5 to get $200 in bonus bets within 21 days. That's code ROGAN in partnership with DraftKings. The crown is yours. Bet with DK Sportsbook.

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Totally. Yeah. And I guess it makes sense in that context that you could technically train a robot like Alexa to do much better because they don't have that sort of prefrontal cortex neurosis ego.

Right.

I wonder if you could train ego into an LLM. Well, it seems like you can because you can, you could train survival instincts. And there's a lot of things like, like when they're threatened about being shut off and they blackmail people.

That's insane. It's really insane. And then you have to ask, is there some sort of underlying emotion going on there? Like if you were like, or is it just like probability matrices and attention heads and these sort of technical things? And it's as if consciousness, it's like sort of feeding the data through.

And then it gets to a certain point where as that becomes more and more complex, how do we differentiate?

That's, that's the problem. And I mean, David Chalmers has a great, you know, he's this sort of consciousness theorist where it's like, Joe, how can you prove that I'm not a pee zombie, that I am not some like AI construct? There's ultimately no way to prove that. There's this epistemological impasse between you and I.

Yeah, we don't know. No. And then, you know, the real problem with this whole UFO thing is like, well, what are they? Are they just a possibility? Are they a thing that exists and also doesn't exist? Like quantum particles are in a superposition? I mean, are they here all the time? Are they only here when you summon them? Which is one of the weirder ones.

Oh yeah.

Because I have a friend, she's totally convinced she can summon orbs. She wants me to go try it with her. I'm like, okay.

I have a few friends like that too, and there's zero mental health issues with them.

They're totally cool and normal. Yeah, she's super lucid, very smart.

Yeah. You know, that's a, that's a common thing. It's a strangely common thing for people to say that they're able to call in via consciousness these UFOs. And I do think they are sort of weakly entangled with— so if reality, per Tom Campbell, is a consensus collapsing function, it's like we sort of have this like shared collective reality that we kind of agree on. And these things are sort of, you know, consensus thought forms, then maybe a UFO is an example of something like that. Maybe it's an alternative timeline that we're slowly bringing in to the like mainstream timeline or something like that. I mean, I think our language is always very poor as far as like our ability to—

Well, our language is very poor in terms of states of consciousness as well, right? So altered states of consciousness, like psychadelically altered states of consciousness. Okay, well, why— what is happening when you're experiencing entities and other beings and things and objects and visuals? And like, what is a hallucination? And what is you actually tuning into something that exists on a frequency that you don't have access to during the normal state that you are when you go to the grocery store, say hi to your family, normal stuff? Like, there's God, you know, there's some weirdness to like whatever consciousness itself is that exists in weird forms and weird states.

A lot of people say these experiences are realer than real too, right? You know, they say they're realer than reality. Yeah. Like, and they come back and they're like, I know there's something more. I know it. Yeah. You know, and it's not, um, and they see common archetypes, like they'll see the machine elves or the mantids or the Grays or like it's not like this sort of everything is everything, you know, complete sort of Cambrian explosion of a zoo of things. It's often the same things. And then you have to ask yourself, is it this sort of, you know, Aldous Huxley sort of doors of your perception, you're widening them to literally a wider reality, or like you just said, maybe you're superimposing something onto reality, maybe you're crazy. But again, I think this sort of rationalist you know, explain everything away bias that society has had is the latter. It's like you're super— you're hallucinating, you're superimposing this thing on reality, take medication.

It's very rare that people who have had those experiences have that thought.

Totally. And it could be like you're— again, going back to transmission theory of consciousness, your receiver's just a little off and it's not integrating perfectly or—

Yeah. Well, then again, we're talking about like the water being muddy. There's a bunch of people that are self-professed skeptics, and those people are maddening to talk to because they have zero experience. It's like a virgin telling you how to have sex. It's like, settle down. Like, you literally don't know what you're talking about. Like, you don't know what you're talking about. You have not experienced it. And like, well, we don't think it's necessary to experience it to understand how the human brain works. Well, fucking of course it is. Of course it is. That's such a stupid thing to say when you have these brilliant people you know, like Michael Pollan, who have these profound experiences and write about them, like, very eloquently. You can't just dismiss that as a non-experiencer. You just can't. And to say it's like, oh, it's just hallucination. What does that mean? What does that even mean? Okay, like, I always say this. If you have a psychedelic experience, you eat 10 grams of mushrooms and you have a conversation with God, and God explains to you what you've done wrong in your life and why you're doing it wrong and what you could do to spread love, and that's what's really important.

And you come back profoundly changed from this experience. How is that any different than actually meeting God? Like, you just be— you know what I'm saying? Just because you don't have fucking iPhone footage of it, it does not mean that this isn't the exact same experience as meeting God. And maybe it is meeting God.

It was to the person.

There's a weirdness to what we call quantifiable reality. There's a weirdness to what we are as these, like, very complex, but yet also pretty simplistic monkeys. We want to be able to put something on a scale or put a ruler to it and go, "Oh, well, this is 12 inches long and I know what it is." Maybe not.

And why do people with near-death experiences or prophets, they seem to, after the fact, they're not able to encapsulate the experience.

Right.

It's like, actually, I— interviewed David Grusch, and he was talking about this guy Eben Alexander. And I think it's called Proof of— what is it called? Life After— Life in Heaven or something. It's amazing. It's a Harvard neuroscientist who had a near-death experience. And he was saying, like, it's like the symbol rate of reality is too slow. It's like literally like the language itself can't encapsulate state. I think William James also had a psychedelic experience, and he was trying to describe, and he had a notepad, and he was writing down what he had experienced while tripping, and it was just like total psychobabble. It was just impossible to understand. So I do think there's this sort of weird, I don't know, inability to sort of understand these transcendent experiences.

Yeah, inability to bring anything back. And that's one of the things that people— well, if it's real, if you really are getting knowledge, why don't you bring something back? Like, okay, you don't know what you're saying because you haven't done it. And if you've done it, you would realize like, oh, this is a mad consciousness scramble. It's almost impossible to relay to another person because we don't have the words. We don't have the words to describe these complex geometric patterns that are constantly morphing and changing. Also, they're conscious. Also, they seem to be made out of light.

Yeah, right.

Also, they seem to be— they look like things that you might have seen in, like, ancient Egyptian artwork. And there's a lot of, like, strange parallels to ancient religious art and ancient, like, sacred art and sacred geometry. There's some weirdness to it. It's like these people— like Alex Gray, for instance, like a modern-day version of that.

Yeah.

He's, like, captured these things. And you look at it, and anybody that's taken any tryptamines, you look at his stuff and you go, Oh, I see that.

You're like, I'm tripping.

I've seen something like that. Exactly. There's something there. He knows what this is, and he's done a fantastic job of relaying it. And if he lived thousands of years ago and we looked at his art, and he'd probably be thought of as like some sort of a prophet who like had these very bizarre abilities to communicate with whatever it is, the afterlife, the great beyond, the other dimensions, whatever it is. He can encapsulate it and bring some of it back so you can get a look at it.

Yeah, he's actually a counterpoint to what we just said. Like, he actually does bring that back. And you look at his art and you're like, oh my God, I'm tripping again.

And it's very rare if you think about it. Like, think about how long people have been tripping and how this one guy is sort of universally known as being the absolute best at capturing it.

It's wild. And I feel like we're on the precipice of— yeah, I know you had Andrew Gallimore on who wrote a great book called Alien Information Theory. And he, you know, just as Astronauts go into deep space and aquanauts go into the deep sea. Psychonauts are systematically going into the DMT realm with this slow intravenous DMT trip that he's administering. And they're mapping what they see in a more systematic way, because they say things like, "Oh, I'll see literally platonic objects." A platonic object is something that is beyond 3D. It's like a tesseract. You literally can't visualize a tesseract. You can just see the shadow of it. A tesseract because it's, it's, you know, too high dimensional, you know, for us to conceive of. And so they'll come back and they're like mapping these things out. And that's just— I'm so excited to see what we're mapping out.

Very familiar entities where they have like a specific number of entities that everyone has encountered.

That's just— yeah, it's fascinating. And it's like, yeah, at what point do we then just start to say is that some weird interior fabric of spacetime that we just haven't traversed or don't fully understand.

Right.

What is it?

And what is it?

What the fuck is it? It's really interesting because these people, what fascinates me the most in terms of the, like, the UFC, the UFC, UFO experience, the UAP experience, is the people that had the experiences before there was an archetype. You know, before there was this like iconic vision of like what they looked like, like Betty and Barney Hill, for example. Those are— that's my favorite UFO abduction story because there was nothing in the zeitgeist that they could draw from where they could say, oh, I know what that is. I've seen that before.

Well, Outer Limits was actually a popular CBS TV show that aired, premiered 11 days before their experience. I'm not taking away from their experience. I think they experienced something. Real.

But which episode was it?

It was— there was the first episode of Outer Limits, and the aliens in Outer Limits, the eyes wrap around their heads in a way that's similar to what they described.

Let's see what that looks like. Find out episode 1 of Outer Limits. That's interesting. I did not know that. Yeah. So what year was that?

That was, I think, 1962.

Whoa, how creepy looking. Ooh.

But it's— so Betty and Barney Hill also described the aliens looking like Nazis at one point. Barney says that, which is really trippy. So he said they look like gnats at one point. Yeah, because you can actually get the audio of the Betty and Barney Hill.

Yeah, we listened to part of it, but it's mostly just them like yelling. Look at that, the image. Look at the image. Is that the image of what they saw? Is that a drawing? Because God, that looks exactly like The Outer Limits. They might have got mind fucked by TV. But then again, it's like maybe whatever the fuck it is manifests itself as something that's familiar to you.

Yeah, or maybe it has control, like dominion over sort of everything, and they're seeding themselves in through media and through, you know, it's so hard to say.

Sculpture of the being Betty and Barney Hill encounter. My God, that looks a lot like the fucking Outer Limits thing.

There you go.

Well, it's like, it's— that's the question. It's like, what is that? Her holding it? Did she make it herself?

Interesting.

Boy, that looks a lot like the Outer Limits thing. The question is like, if, if consciousness is rendering something and something from somewhere else, something that you normally can't access, is exchanging information with you in some sort of a strange way, and it's doing it while you're in a semi-conscious state, right? Would it try to represent itself as something that's familiar?

Mm.

I mean, maybe it's just like our primitive visual ability, our primitive— all of our senses, which are very crude and primate-driven. They're basically like, your eyes are in the front of your head because you're a predator, and you're basically like a tribal territorial ape that has, you know, really kind of— it's grown out of its genetics. You know, like you're in some new state. So you're communicating with something that is beyond your comprehension. And so it's like, instead of showing myself as a tesseract, instead of showing— you know what I mean? Like, instead of showing myself as geometric patterns that are constantly morphing and made out of light, I don't think this monkey's gonna be able to handle this. These silly humans. I'm gonna have to like show myself as something that was a television character. And that's why when Betty's drawing that, maybe she doesn't even realize that like it looks a lot like what she saw on TV.

Totally. And I think—

oh, clarify something maybe? Yeah, sure. I just feel like I misunderstood it. Their event happened in 1961. That episode aired in 1964, but it was 12 days before they had their hypnotic regression.

Got it. Oh, okay, interesting.

So their hypnotic regression was that long afterwards?

It's 3 years, 2 and a half.

Huh, that's interesting. So when did they start describing an experience? Was it pre-hypnotic? What, what prompted them to have the hypnotic regression?

I believe she had like— she came home and she had like, I think, some blood on her and she was like something. They had a lot of missing time. They had like 5 hours of missing time. They were on a road trip, right? And it was back to their place, I think, in Vermont.

That's very— that changes things a little bit. But also there's the problem there is that human memory sucks.

It does.

Memory sucks. And if you're— you have a memory of a very traumatic experience just 3 years ago, and then also you just watched Outer Limits then things get squirrely. Because like, if you're communicating with something and it's literally telepathically engaging with you and it can read your mind, it's telling you to calm down, it's got you on a spaceship, like, how much of that do you remember? Especially whatever happened to you, it somehow or another rendered your memory out, like you can't really remember it. So you're hypnotically accessing this memory, and then you also have this like recent experience of watching a television show.

Totally. But yeah, you're paralyzed. There's often missing time. And so at that point, you have to say these beings have total control over your entire reality. And so it's hard to say exactly what happened.

According to the wiki, I got that this happened in November of '61 for 10 days, or 10 days after she started having dreams or one of the two, 10 days after the alleged encounters, she began having dreams. And then a year later, at church, they ran into a captain of the Air Force, and then some hypnosis discussions started. But then 2 years later— church is when those sessions happened. So there's not a lot of— the timeline, at least according to the wiki, is not really kept well here, right? So that's a long period of time.

Listen to this: Barney described the beings as generally similar to Betty's hypnotic recollection. He said the being stared into his eyes with a terrifying, mesmerizing effect. Under hypnosis, Barney said, "Oh, those eyes, they're in my brain. They're there in my brain." From his first hypnotic session, "I was told to close my eyes because I saw two eyes coming close to mine, and I felt like the eyes had pushed into my eyes. All I see are these eyes. I'm not even afraid that they're not connected to a body." They're just there. They're just up close to me, pressing against my eyes. Uh, when Betty reported a conversation with the leader in English, Barney said that he had heard them speaking in a mumbling language he did not understand. Betty also mentioned this detail. The few times they communicated with him, Barney said it seemed to be thought transference. At the time, he was unfamiliar with the word telepathy. That's interesting. Like, he didn't know what the word telepathy was, and the concept of speaking through the mind wasn't even— it wasn't even in pop culture yet.

Totally. And it's hard to debunk that something paranormal happened. You know, like, it's— these— they seem like completely of sound mind, and there's this missing time. And then you have all these high-up head honchos, you know, at Air Force Air Force. I believe this guy Charles Douglas Jackson, who was this head honcho as well, and kind of the Pentagon, came and visited them. So I think it's clear that something happened, and then what happened, it's just hard to say. It's really hard to say.

Like, who— why is the Air Force talking to them? That's the real question, right?

Well, because I think they had an interest, you know. Project Blue Book was running at the time, And it's clear now, if you do deeper research, that they knew more than they let on. J. Allen Hynek, you know, later kind of apologized and admitted he played a part in the cover-up. And so they were probably doing real research with abductees while they were kind of downplaying, you know, and rationalizing everything to the public.

So Jamie just pulled something up. It says on November 23rd, 1962, the Hills attended a meeting at the parsonage of their church. Where Captain Ben H. Swett of the United States Air Force was a guest speaker. Having had an interest in hypnosis, the Hills approached Swett privately and related their strange encounter. Swett was particularly interested in the missing time of the Hills' accounts. The Hills asked if he would hypnotize them to recover their memories, but Swett declined and cautioned them against going to an amateur hypnotist such as himself.

I wonder what the meeting was about that they were— that he was, you know, talking at, right? That they just went to like a meeting, right, by hypnosis, maybe, like just in general.

Yeah, but he's an— he was like a self-proclaimed amateur hypnotist. Why would an amateur hypnotist have a meeting at a church about hypnotism? And I especially, like, in 1962, I'd imagine that a lot of people running churches were super skeptical about even that concept, and they might even thought it was like blasphemy or sorcery or some something you're not supposed to be fucking with. What'd this guy do?

It's coming from his website.

He's got a website?

A testimony from him.

Mmm.

I read some of my poetry to a meeting at the rectory of the Unitarian Church in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. I wasn't a member of the church, didn't know anyone there.

Why does he have a donation link on his website?

This is for the Wayback Machine.

Oh, I see. Okay.

He was studying hypnosis and they wanted to hear about it.

Does seem a little awfully convenient.

Kind of odd that someone was studying hypnosis.

They had him in to read his poetry. He had nothing to do with the church at all.

The craziest thing about this story is Betty told this famous UFO researcher from Sweden, this guy Klaas von, who actually has the largest UFO archive in the world in Sweden. She said that she saw a UFO crash later and she buried a little piece of it in her house at— in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. And so there might be a little piece of a UFO in her old house. And if you live there, go dig in your backyard and see.

Well, it's probably not there until you experience it.

Yeah, yeah, maybe. I don't know.

Your consciousness renders it.

That's right.

This is kind of strange. Uh, So this, those lines right there, because this is the timeline here, is weird because he did this in '62 and then he's saying he also came back in '63 and that's when the UFO stuff started.

So they started telling me about something that happened to them that when, as they were driving home from Canada, uh, the night of 19 to 20 September 1961, a light in the sky seemed to follow them and then circled them and being stopped on the road and how they later realized that they had a 3-hour gap in their memories. As they told their story, Barney's face kept twitching spasmodically on one side. I didn't like the looks of that. What?

Whoa.

The missing time is also a weird one because that's— that also hadn't been something that was in the zeitgeist. Was that in The Outer Limits? Probably not. No. But yet that has become a part of the experience that all these abductees discuss.

Absolutely.

They discuss, like, all of a sudden they're back in their car and they're sitting on the side of the road and they're like, okay, what the fuck just happened?

I was just telling Jamie before we were rolling, so, um, 1977, Ellsworth Air Force Base in South Dakota. There are two missile security officers, uh, two sergeants, a guy named Mario Woods and, um, Michael Johnson. And Mario sees this UFO UFO sort of, you know, circling the base, and he flashes the little perimeter floodlights at this UFO, and he thinks nothing of it. He goes back, you know, he and Michael are hanging out. I think 4 or 5 hours go by, and there's a big alert, and it's an inner zone and outer zone alert. So basically, the security perimeter to a hydrogen bomb, a live thermonuclear weapon, has been breached. And yeah, and they get in their car and they go check it out because they— it's always, you know, two-man rapid response teams. They go check it out. There is a— what he describes as a blazing red orb the size of a Walmart. So a massive— like, that's the way he describes it. It's a huge, like, storefront-sized, like, city block-sized, uh, uh, uh, UFO. And then he says a little, like, like a black kind of like almost like a drone or emissary orb that's like the size of a golf cart comes out.

4 beings hover towards them. They black out. They black in 5.5 hours later, 8 miles away in Newell— or sorry, next to a dam. I think it's closer to Newell. And it's 8 miles off the base. And they immediately get questioned by Air Force Office of Special Investigations. and the Air Force Office of Special Investigations agent who was involved admits he was there for this debrief and admits that this happened. His name is Rick Doty. And I just— so they were separated after that, Michael and Mario. I just introduced them for the— reintroduced them for the first time. I found Michael. So Mario had been going on all these podcasts since the '90s being like, where's Mike? Like, he has eidetic picture-perfect photographic memory. You'd love him. He's like the coolest guy. And he remembers everything to a T that happened to him, including his debrief. He remembers the names of the people there. It's so obvious something happened to him.

Whoa.

Did he always have that memory, that ability?

He always had that ability. He's clearly just very talented when it comes to memory, and he'd been looking for Michael forever. He asked the FBI to find him. He asked the All Domain Anomalies Resolution Office, which is the official Pentagon office around UFOs to find him. He hired private investigators, and this dude DM'd me on Instagram, shout out, fan of the show, Jason Miller, and then we just got a recruiter to find Michael Johnson, 'cause that was the one missing piece of the story. And they reconnected, and it was like the most emotional, 'cause they hadn't seen each other. They saw each other once, I think 2 weeks after the abduction to trade notes and draw pictures of what happened to them, like the beings on the ship, You know, I think, yeah, there you go. Yeah, this is them.

My man.

All this time, you never forget me.

Which guy's which?

So Michael Johnson is the black dude on the left. Mario Woods is on the right.

And which is the guy with the crazy memory?

Mario's on the right. That's Mario.

They look the same, man.

Michael honestly has a great memory too.

So these two guys, do they have a similar story or is it exact? Do they have variation?

They have a very similar story. Not, you know, perfectly one-to-one, but they're very honest about, like, you know, the minor, you know, crying.

Yeah, he's crying.

Like, yeah, doesn't come out tomorrow, but I thought I'd send it to Jamie. Wow, isn't that crazy? Wow.

When does that episode come out?

This week. So in a few days. Yeah.

What a teaser.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nice. But it's, it's crazy how similar their memories are. So, like, I've heard of this event.

And I've seen it rendered online, like fake, like some fake version of it.

People call it the most convincing alien abduction ever because of Mario's memory. It's insane.

Mm.

The level of recall. And, uh—

Has his memory been tested to make sure that he's not delusional?

I don't know if his memory's been tested, but when you, I mean, like, I've known him for 2 and a half years and I interviewed him for the first time I think, yeah, 2 and a half years ago-ish. And I speak to him, you know, pretty regularly. And his memory is crazy. Like even in that period around like little things where it's like this restaurant, remember the waiter here and this and that. Like he just has a wild memory. Yeah. He has a very good memory.

There's that actress. Do you know Mary Lou Henner? Do you know who she is?

Who's that?

She was on that show Taxi.

Okay.

And she has that very specific kind of memory and it's super unusual where she can recall Not just the day, but like, she can tell you if you give her a date what day it was and what happened that day. And like, you know, what was in the news and what was on television. Like, Mary Lou Henner.

That's insane.

Yeah. Highly superior autobiographical memory. A rare condition allowing her to vividly recall specific dates, weather, emotions, and personal experiences for nearly every day of her life since childhood.

Wow. You know who else is, I mean, the inspiration for Rain Man, Kim Peek, similar thing. You'd be like, what was the weather like, you know, November 7th, 1681? And he'll like tell you.

What?

Yeah, it's like insane shit like that. And often it occurs after a traumatic brain injury for whatever reason.

That's weird.

It is weird. And it points to maybe the receiver, the transmission theory of consciousness though.

Right, you get rattled, something loose.

Exactly.

Yeah.

There's a lot of people that develop mathematical abilities after head injuries, like people that have never been good at anything, and all of a sudden they could do physics.

Right. Like, where does that come from? What is that? Or these, you know, nonverbal, often autistic children in the telepathy tapes. I know you had Kai Dickens on where they're very kind of disembodied. And, you know, it's kind of sometimes hard for them to navigate the world, but they just— their ability to glean knowledge, it's like they're short-circuiting our knowledge pathways. Like they'll know like certain Egyptian hieroglyphics without ever having learned about them in school.

And they can read them.

And they can read them. And they meet up on this telepathic hill. It's like they have abilities that we don't. And they're actually, in some ways, more disembodied. And so it's like there's something about like, we're ported into our bodies but our senses, like when you gain a sense, you lose your former sense or something. And so their disembodiedment, if you're in a VR system or whatever, you're not gonna like understand what's going on outside of it. But if you're this nonverbal autistic child who, again, other people might call them, you know, like maladaptive for the world, you know, unable to navigate the world, they're actually geniuses on this whole other level. Like they can sort of short circuit the way we learn.

Right, and they don't get in their own way. The way we do.

They don't. And there's no traditional neuroscientific model that explains that. You have to go into this sort of Tom Campbell area.

Yeah. I've often wondered if maybe what we're seeing from nonverbal autistic people and just people on the spectrum in general is instead of it being like, instead of it being like the way we look at it is like, like you said, maladaptive, like that these people have an unfortunate situation that's happened to them. But maybe what we're looking at is an emerging type of consciousness. And like, if you think about what is wrong with the human race, well, you know, a lot of it has to do with ego and what we were talking about earlier, these territorial primate instincts, the desire to accumulate resources and the desire to, you know, to dominate and to get status and all these different things that human beings are captured by. Well, these people aren't captured by those things at all. And if we want to get past where we are now, well, what better way than you introduce some new— whether it's natural selection or some random mutation or whatever it is, or maybe even some sort of environmental adaptation that allows them to become a different kind of person. Like maybe that is the future.

—It totally could be the future. And you watch or, you know, listen to the telepathy tapes and you're like, we're maladaptive. Like, they are so heart-centered. It's almost like they're living in the future. Yeah, if you look at, you know, if any of the UFO stuff points to a future modality of like how we learn, maybe this sort of intuition and telepathy sort of gets selected for in our sort of, you know, you know, prefrontal cortex reasoning actually gets selected against. I don't know.

Yeah, I don't know either, but it's odd that it's emerging as a part of a— you know, much more so now because of, you know, various debatable factors, whether it's vaccines or environmental exposure to toxins or whatever. You have a much higher incidence of this taking place now as our society becomes more and more complex and as we move closer and closer to this, like, balancing act between like nuclear war and utopia. Like, where are we gonna land? You know? Like, well, you know, maybe we're gonna have to get past whatever it is that we have clung to about being a person, this thing that we think is so important.

There's a great book by the great Arthur C. Clarke called Childhood's End, and he talks about aliens sort of incepting the world through telepathic children. And it's so— it's again interesting how fiction sort of can mirror reality, maybe, where a lot of these kids actually in the telepathy tapes see other beings. They see otherworldly beings, and it's sort of casual to them. They're like, yeah, of course, aliens, you know, like it's, it's not even a thing to them. And so they might already just be living sort of in the, in this future kind of expanded epistemology that we're, we're sort of limited. If, if the Campbell thing is right, like our consensus collapsing function's just narrower and theirs might be just wider. Right.

This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. People who go that little extra step, like your rideshare pointing out the best local places to eat, goes a long way. If you want people who are going to make a positive impression for your business, use ZipRecruiter. In fact, try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/twists. .com/rogan. ZipRecruiter's latest feature lets candidates go above and beyond to tell you why they want the role, and it shows you the most interested qualified candidates first. Try ZipRecruiter and meet great candidates who'll go the extra step for your job. 4 out of 5 employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free today at ZipRecruiter .com/rogan. That's ziprecruiter.com/rogan. ZipRecruiter, meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Right, and then when people consume all these bizarre plants, that allows them to tap into some— something. Like, if you've heard about that mushroom that makes you see little people? No, what is this? Oh, it's very weird. So this mushroom is apparently— it's a food mushroom mushroom, and it's not psilocybin, and people eat it, but if it's not cooked correctly, if it's not cooked to a certain temperature, apparently the side effect is you start to see little people everywhere.

No way. Yeah. They saw them on their dishes when eating. The mushrooms are making people hallucinate dozens of tiny humans. What?

Like little humans standing on the plates and stuff? I don't know.

Like Honey, I Shrunk the Kids sort of? And try to figure out like what they're saying. It's not the Amanita muscaria. That's a picture of Amanita muscaria, which is the, um, also very trippy.

Yeah, possibly dancing on mushrooms, the Eucharist.

Yeah, according to one scholar. Not— yeah, well, that's a, that's a weird one too. It's just, it's so ubiquitous in ancient depictions of Santa Claus and of even religious art like the— you've seen the fresco in France. It's a very old fresco of Adam and Eve, and instead of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, it's not a tree at all. It's a— it's an Amanita muscaria mushroom. It's this huge like mushroom spore with like multiple growths. Have you seen it? I haven't seen that. I think it's 900 years old, something like that. It's really old. See if you can find that fresco, and it's in— I believe it's in France and France. They don't like that. France. France. That is a— it's a depiction of Adam and Eve and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. That's it. Wow. I mean, that looks very similar to Amanita muscaria, being that Amanita muscaria, which has a red cap and white dots all over it— I don't know how many mushrooms have white dots all over it like that, but that seems to look like that.

No, it seems to look a lot like that, you know.

And then there's the John Marco Allegro, the guy who wrote The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, the guy who was on the Dead Sea Scrolls Commission, who was an ordained minister but also was agnostic. And after 14 years of deciphering the Dead Sea Scrolls, he's like, I think this is all about fertility rituals and the consumption of psychedelic mushrooms. Yeah. And everybody's like, what the fuck are you talking about?

But that's what if you like Brian Murarescu, who I know you've had on multiple times, The Immortality Key, or Carl Ruck, like they all sort of, you know, come to that conclusion.

Yes.

And even Martin Luther King wrote an essay called The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, which is that Christian didn't— Christianity didn't arise in a vacuum. Martin Luther King? Martin Luther King wrote a book about how it was— there was a continuum between these sort of pagan mystery rituals and the advent of Christianity. Wow. So look at this.

Even to this day, science doesn't understand what's going on in the brain to cause this or how to treat it. And this mushroom is the only thing that we currently know of to reliably produce this effect, said University of Utah researcher Colin, uh, Domnaur in a new interview with Live Science, adding that the gnome-like beings appear after about 12 to 24 hours and may stick around for several days to follow. These aren't like some vague hallucinations. These are like 3-dimensionally rendered, highly detailed figures inhabiting your exterior world. And they're also interacting with objects in the real world, like crawling up chairs and tables or under doorways.

Think of having to explain that condition if it hasn't gone away to somebody that you don't know. Like, I'm really sorry.

How about the fact that that it shows up a day later. Yeah, so you, you have some Chinese food and they forgot to cook the mushrooms right, and then a day later you've got like little dudes crawling up the chairs, and it fucking lasts for days. It's so absurd.

I found that after it's saying many people don't even feel any type of hallucination or thing except for that, except for the miniature people.

That is the funniest thing.

Whoa, um, It's called the lanmoa. How do you say that? Lanmao— Asiatica. So what, what type of— it's, it's Asian cooking, like what, China? So here it is. It's native to the pine forests in both southwestern China and the northern Philippines, where it's wild harvested and sold in local markets for typical culinary use. Yet despite decades of anecdotal reports of hallucinations, usually as a result of undercooking, The ingredient, the species became known to science only about 10 years ago. Wow.

Throw that in with the pufferfish of things you don't want to cook incorrectly. Well, or you do.

Or you do. Or you just eat it raw. What happens if you eat it raw? These little people are said to be typically like teasing, playing with, or harassing the person seeing them. Boy, I mean, doesn't that mirror the talk of like gnomes and elves like throughout history? Totally. Yeah, the trickster sort of phenomenon. That guy's got it right there.

Yeah, that's the guy.

I would drug test Colin in a fucking heartbeat. Look at that fella. Yeah, I bet he's having fun out there. He's imbibed. Postdoctoral student, University of Utah. We might have to have Colin on. I think he should. Yeah, seems like it. Very interesting. That's so crazy. Whereas the genes responsible for synthesizing psychoactive compounds in typical magic mushrooms are well documented, uh, Don Maurer— Don Maurer's team found none in L. asiatica. There weren't even known psychoactive compounds. So it seems like this must be some new hallucinogenic compound waiting to be discovered because there's nothing that matches anything in our database.

So someone's gonna isolate that and turn that into a drug.

What the fuck, man? So weird. Can you imagine and dose somebody with that and try to convince someone that they're going crazy? You dose them with that and like, are you alone, Mike? Are you alone in this room with me? No, there's little people everywhere. I told you, let's take his money. Oh my God. Mike's a kook.

It's like the prank you pull where everyone goes silent, they're mouthing or whatever with you, but like on steroids, like the worst version of that ever.

What? What the fuck, man? And how long have people known about this mushroom?

10 years or so.

Right, us, Western world. But how long have they known in Asia?

Let me Perplexity this and see what other fun information I can get about it.

Throw that into our AI sponsor Perplexity because I want to know whether or not that's why they cook it.

I also am wondering that too.

They ever put it in salads before and fucking trip for a month? There's some origin story.

The original chef. So little people for the rest of his life.

Yeah, what happens if you eat it raw?

Only one way to find out. Yeah, he hasn't tried it yet.

I'm scared. Yeah, right. Look at him. Guys eating a whole salad with it. I guarantee you that dude's tried it. He's full of shit. Oh, I have no idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm assuming this is what happens. I am a scientist. Yeah, it's funny how A lot of those people researching stuff like that, they, they know. Like, for the first time I interviewed Rick Strassman, uh-huh, he didn't want to talk about his own personal DMT experience.

That's so often the case. Yeah, because they want to separate it, and it's like, it's all good. You're talking about this being a thing. Like, to me, it lends more credibility if you've experienced it.

Yes, but in his defense, when we first started talking and when I first had him on, the world was a different place in terms of just the acceptance of this stuff. This is like like this predates people going to like Costa Rica and having ayahuasca experiences. That wasn't commonly talked about. It wasn't like— everybody talks about that now. Now it's— this predates any ibogaine experiences, any even concept of there's a plant that you could take that cures you of any kind of addictions that you have.

This predates you sitting behind the President of the United States and helping see through this destigmatization and legalization of these treatments. Predates a lot of that. Yeah, fair enough.

It predates people's understanding of why these things are illegal in the first place as well, which I thought was like really important when we did that press conference to say that this is, this is not illegal because it's harmful and the world's trying to protect you from this. This is illegal because of the Nixon administration. Totally. Yeah, that's it. And it didn't make it. And they've probably set our psychological evolution, the evolution of our culture, back hundreds of years.

Potentially cool thing.

Aha, possible ancient Chinese reference. A 3rd century CE Taoist text described a flesh spirit mushroom which, when eaten raw, lets one see a little person and attain transcendence. Transcendence. This is intriguing, but it's not confirmed species identification, so it should not be treated as proof that the text refers to L. asiatica. Okay, well, what other mushrooms allow you to see little people?

They call it Lilliputian hallucinations.

Mm-hmm. Papua New Guinea mushroom madness in the western highlands beginning in 1934 involving dramatic behavioral changes and reports consistent with little person visions. This exact mushroom involved remains unconfirmed. It may or may not have been L. asiatica. Well, I bet the Papua New Guinea climate is probably at least reasonably similar to the Philippines, right? Yeah. Modern documentation, uh, Chinese researchers reported cases of Lilliputian hallucinations after mushroom consumption in Yunnan in 1991. L. asiatica itself was only formally described scientifically in 2015 after market specimens were genetically examined.

Wow, it sounds just like Gulliver's Travels. We have like a right explanation of it, so wouldn't it be Maybe that's what the author of that book, right? Oh, maybe at least had, right, a story about, right?

That's probably exactly what it is. That's probably it fucking exactly what it is. This guy went on a journey, he's like, I tell you, little fucking tiny people are fucking with me. Exactly. It's like, I wonder like what that is and whether or not they're actually here all the time. And that just lets you pop in and check. Who knows?

Yeah. It's hard to say.

Well, we're so limited in our senses. Just think about what we know about— just think about what we know about the quantum world, what we know about subatomic particles. Like, we can't see those, but yet we know they exist. Well, why can't we see them? Because our senses aren't good enough. Yeah. So like, you can't even measure them at—

there's like Heisenberg uncertainty principles where you can't measure the position and momentum at the same time of an electron perfectly accurately.

Yeah, and they also can be in two places at one time. What? Okay. Yeah, two different things? No? Okay, they also could be still and moving at the same time? Okay, what the fuck are we even talking about? It sounds like we're talking about bullshit or magic or both. Yeah, yeah. Right? So our senses are the real culprit here.

It's a real problem. And back then, real scientists, credible scientists, like Einstein was going to debate Niels Bohr. There's a great book called What Is Real by a guy named Adam Becker about all of this, where Einstein was saying the quantum stuff is too spooky, as he called it spooky action at a distance. It's too weird, and we need to reconcile it with some sort of ontological truth or reality. You can't just say shut up and calculate. It's not just this like mathematical formalism. And I think now it's turned into just this like heuristic for like doing science. Oh, we built transistors and semiconductors based on quantum mechanics or whatever. But actually it's like way trippier if you like look into like what it points to as far as reality itself. It's way weirder.

Yeah. Yeah. McKenna was one of the first people that I ever heard talk about like using psilocybin mushrooms in particular as a method of contacting UFOs, you know, and he was like, you know, people that are looking for UFO, well, they're very available. He had this weird way of talking.

He was almost like a machine elf himself, the way he spoke. He would like kind of— I don't know. He had this kind of trickster vibe. There's an amazing clip actually with him and John Mack, where John Mack is actually getting like kind of very ideologically angry and actually similar to what you just said about Rick Strassman. He had gone through this crazy kind of review of his credentials at Harvard. He was being almost almost stripped of them, of his position rather, because of looking into, you know, alien abductions. Yeah. As, you know, this lead at Harvard in the psychiatry department. And you just see like McKenna sort of like goading him along and being kind of cheeky. And he was just such a funny, interesting character who was so simultaneously trippy, but also precise in his language, was extremely smart.

Yeah, extremely smart, but also like really wanted to believe. Like he had that weird Time Wave Zero thing that he had. He thought there was going to be some sort of an event on December 21st, 2012, which is the end of the Long Count of the Mayan calendar. He was convinced that like there was going to be some sort of an event like that time was. And he thought, you know, obviously this is in the '90s when he was talking about this and discussing it. He thought it was going to be the invention of a time machine.

That's so crazy. Yeah. Yeah. He would also trip for weeks on end, as you know, with his brother in the Amazon, and he would download all sorts of stuff. I almost feel like the implicit kind of foundational philosophy that he has is that mushrooms are aliens themselves. Yeah. And the reason I think that is because, so in 1973, I believe Francis Crick, who discovered the double helical structure of DNA, wrote a paper, and then he followed it up with a book in 1981 called Life Itself, and it's all about how DNA in 100 million years, it's too short of a period of time for it to have formed on Earth. So you needed some sort of panspermia. And so you needed something to have traveled interstellar. What's the best candidate for traveling interstellar? Probably an extremophile, something like a mushroom. Mushrooms are almost like zip files of consciousness. They show up at the end of life and before life. And so like if you look at Chernobyl, for example, like what grows first after the— we, you know, experience mushrooms. You know, it's— you have the— they call it the Wood Wide Web, I believe, in Oregon.

It's like the, you know, largest organism in the world is actually like a mycelial network. And then where it gets really trippy is like, if you think about a Kardashev 4 scale civilization, which is— Kardashev scales are basically like our ability to harness energy, but you could think of it as like a completely intergalactic civilization that's like just very deep spacefaring. What would it look like? Would it look like a kind of bipedal hominid where you like show up, you know, on another planet and you get your meat— you're this fragile kind of meaty thing that gets shot at. No, you would be this like zip file of consciousness, extremophile, that would spread all throughout other planets, and you would basically create a symbiotic relationship with hosts. And we all have microbiomes, it's passé to say that, but we also all have microbiomes that accompany the microbiome mushrooms. And there's the mind-gut connection is also this passé thing to talk about. Obviously, you have the vagus nerve, you have neurotransmitters getting created. So, you know, mushrooms obviously affect our thinking. You can watch, you know, bullet ants in the Amazon getting like taken over by cordyceps mushrooms and literally their, their whole musculoskeletal system are being, you know, they're being controlled by the mushrooms.

And then you look at specific jumps in human evolution, And the one that people talk about is obviously the stoned ape theory, which is, you know, why did we double in cranial size between 2 million years ago, Homo habilis, and Homo sapiens 300,000 years ago? That's really trippy. Maybe it was because as hunter-gatherers, we were following, you know, animals. Animals take shits, and there's psilocybin cubensis, or, you know, grow on poop. And, you know, and then people would, you know, trip out. They'd take these mushrooms and they trip out, and then you get like neurogenesis, and you get these epigenetic changes, and you get this doubling of cranial size. But what's the other big break in human evolution 10,000 years ago, which is the advent of civilization and culture? And think about, you know, what really is the kind of the line break there? What happened? We created, you know, an agrarian society, like basically agriculture. So you have wheat, barley, and rye were the first crops that we grew. And what grows on wheat, barley, and rye? Ergot and these sort of psychedelic substances. And so I think a lot of people assume that the agriculture gets created and then you get specialization, you get urbanization, you get history, you get religion.

All of these things are downstream of like, we have more time, we can think about this stuff. But what if they're downstream of the tripping that occurred? And if you talk, if you look at actually, you know, The Immortality Key by Brian Murarescu, he will openly say, I think these mystery rituals go way back before the Greeks. And so you had pre-Socratic rituals that Peter Kingsley writes about, Heidegger writes about this. So how far back did it go? Maybe it goes back to that big break, you know, around then. And then you get into this thing of like, are mushrooms sort of symbiotic, you know, Kardashev 4-scale aliens that, you know, are Trojan horses for their own species that like we ingest forest, they get into us, and then they sort of subtly control our thoughts, our behavior, our perception. And, you know, it goes back to the McKenna— McKenna actually had this trip in the Amazonian forest, and he says about the mushroom, he says he's speaking to the mushroom, and the mushroom says, within my memory exists the blueprints for hyperlight drive ships. So it's like the mushrooms are seeding us with this ability to go interstellar.

And think about all of the crazy ideas that we've gotten from psychedelics. So who are we to say that our evolution is not being co-directed or assisted by something else? And we're now saying this in the— we're saying this with bacteria and other things like that, that it's hard to say exactly what scale or hierarchy biological evolution occurs. But I think mushrooms are a really great candidate. Also, humans Humans mistake human tissue for fungal diseases. We're so susceptible to fungal disease because human and mushroom DNA are actually very similar. Human and mushroom and mycelial DNA are more phylogenetically similar than humans and plant DNA.

Yeah, mushrooms breathe air. There you go. It's just like, when you tell people that, they go, whoa. Yeah. And they can survive in a vacuum.

In a vacuum, and they're very homeostatic in nature. Can eat plastic in certain situations and stuff. And so it's like they are the stewards of the earth. If you get out of line too much or something, it's like they'll, and then think about people that take mushrooms, they become more conscientious vis-à-vis the entire earth. So they're very sort of like, they're all about ecological balance.

It's just so stunning how one presidential administration that was trying to stop stop the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement through water on, like, one of the most profound compounds that exists on Earth. Totally.

And Timothy Leary was probably the CIA construct who was— You think so? I think so. His wife thought that. I think his wife thought that. I believe so. I think there's a quote around that. Really? Yeah.

How so? Was he a CIA construct? Well, I think it was—

it's similar to the, like, Tom O'Neill chaos theory with Manson, where it's like, he looks like a hippie, smells like a hippie, he was living with Dennis Wilson, this, you know, Beach Boys or whatever. And then, and then he commits murder. So like, and then you have the Joan Didion quote that like, that's the day the '60s ended, you know, the date of the Tate-LaBianca murders. So I think it's maybe somewhat similar here where it's like you're dosing people with way too high doses and you're like seeding a lot of stuff, you know, too much. And you're like, you're— there's actually a quote from Abbie Hoffman who was obviously a big hippie at the time, where he's like, we were just upright Berkeley students who were protesting, and then here came the flower children from LA and Laurel Canyon and stuff, and they were all about their drugs and their murders and their guns, and they were just sort of really crazy. And so I think the theory is that Timothy Leary was sort of pushing this stuff in an overly aggressive way that would then cause this sort of backlash similar to the Manson thing.

Well, they also had weird connections to biker gangs Right, like, didn't the Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters have weird connections with like the Hells Angels? Isn't that how Hunter Thompson got involved with the Hells Angels? I think there's some sort of a connection. I might be making that up. I'm feeling very vague on this, but I believe they partied together quite a bit, which is like, if you were— I mean, I guess you're both outcasts of society. You know, I guess you could kind of chalk it off to that, you know, like that maybe if you're hanging out in weird places, you're gonna meet weird people.

Yeah, totally. Yeah, and I shouldn't say I'm like extremely high conviction that Tim Feely was a CIA agent, but—

But even the connection with biker gangs, like biker gangs— did you ever read Hells Angels? No. It's really great. It's one of— I think it's Hunter's breakout book. And it was before, like, it was very clear that he was sort of blurring the lines between fiction and reality, like, with literature, like a literary license. Hmm. But what essentially happened was these guys came home from Vietnam completely disillusioned. They'd killed a bunch of people, they'd been shot at, they'd seen their friends die. They didn't want to have any fucking part in this society anymore. And they just wanted to ride motorcycles and be free. And this is what started sort of the biker movement in America. Mm. And when you think about the people that were in Vietnam, well, Vietnam was all about drugs to begin with. The whole reason why we wanted control over that area of the world, that's the Golden Triangle. That's where they were bringing in all the opium. That's where there was fucking billions of dollars of drugs. Coming through there. Same as Afghanistan. Very similar in that way, is that we conveniently find, like, really important conflicts that we have to be involved in that just happen to be the hubs of massive amounts of drug money.

Yeah. And so, when these people were over there, they were— a lot of them were doing drugs. A lot of them were hooked on drugs. A lot of them came back and suffered through withdrawals when they returned to America. And so those are the type of people that you would imagine would be like, fuck this life. Yeah, you know, I am just gonna do whatever I can and I'll fucking rob the man. I'll whatever. We're gonna figure out a way to make our own society and we're gonna be outlaws. Just opt out. Yeah, opt out and do drugs. And, and I— that's what they did. And so it kind of makes sense in a way that they would sort of meet the, you know, the Flower Children and Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters and Timothy Leary. Kind of makes sense that they would have interaction with each other.

I feel like the boomers in that period, like the late '60s, early '70s, had this opportunity.

Sorry. Okay. Leary's research was rumored to be linked to CIA, which allegedly provided funding. CIA was greatly interested in the effects of mind-altering drugs in the 1960s. And its drug research was incorporated into the controversial MKUltra experiments. According to Walter Bowart, Leary admitted to working for the CIA since 1962 as an important national asset. He's quoted by Bowart as follows: I would say that 80% of my movements, 80% of the decisions I made, were suggested to me by CIA people. I like the CIA! Exclamation point. This is crazy. The game they're playing is better than the FBI. Better than the Saigon police, better than Franco's police, better than the Israeli police. They're a thousand times better than the KGB. So it comes down to who are you going to work for, the Yankees or the Dodgers? What? That's great. What? That's mad.

Yeah, it was a very weird 6 months he spent conveniently right after he got out of the army.

As a noncommissioned officer. Mm, so he spent 6 months at Ohio State. Wow, Jamie, all leads back to Ohio. All roads lead to Ohio.

Very weird thing that stands out to me. Boy, it just keeps coming back.

It's always there.

That's his number one rabbit hole. Oh, I know, we've talked about it. We've got Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, you have Battelle Memorial Institute there, you have a lot of weird Epstein research. They just took his name off the—

he was removed from the board, or head of the board, chairman of the board. Who did? Wexner. Because the Epstein stuff.

Real? At Ohio State. Just now?

Just now. Just recently. Took a bit. I mean, it took a bit of time. I don't know who's responsible over there. The Wright-Patt stuff is nuts. Yeah. That's weird because that is the place when it was Wright Airfield at the time, right? Where they think that they brought the Roswell crash to Exactly, yeah.

Yeah. '47, yeah, and that would be the place where you would bring it to because they were reverse engineering German pulse jet engines, Soviet MiGs, that sort of thing.

Mm, mm.

And there was this rumor of a Blue Room there that actually there's a crazy video of Barry Goldwater, who was a future presidential candidate, obviously, senator from Arizona, and he's talking about Curtis LeMay, who was Chief of Staff of the Air Force, and he's like, he's like, "I asked Curtis LeMay to show me into the Blue Room at Wright-Patterson," because it's this famous allegedly sort of alien storage facility. And he goes, "He cussed me out of the room. I've never seen him get more angry at me." So yeah.

Outside Phoenix, the senator disclaims direct knowledge of UFOs, but he does confirm a disturbing story about an exchange with General Curtis LeMay.

Reportedly, a spaceship landed and was all hushed up, quieted, and nobody ever heard about much of it. I called Curtis LeMay and I said, General, I know we have a room at Wright-Patterson where you put all this secret stuff.

It was the worst audio ever.

I've never heard him get mad, but he got madder than hell at me, cussed me out, said, 'Don't ever ask me that question again.' That's this audio by the same guy who did the video Inside the UFO.

They're just trying to fuck with us. It's just— they're trying to fuck with us. That's also a really interesting aspect of this whole concept of, uh, whether or not consciousness is rendering these things. If if you're dealing with this reality that's like subtly unfolding in front of you, you kind of would have it a little funky, a little weird, a little blurry, a little odd. Like, what better way to slow drip introduce it to the general public than to give it to you in these weird blurry videos? Not like some 4K crazy video of a fucking mothership size of a football field field flying over a city, undeniable. Nah, let's give you some fucking black and white night vision of a circle going in the ocean and coming out of the ocean where you're like, what is that? What am I looking at? What is it? Well, that is a transmedium device that has gone into the water without creating a splash, then gets out of the water and it's going 300 knots under the water. Like, what? Exactly. What?

No, it's almost like It's like you said, it's meant to fuck with us. Yes. We are, the end product is our belief system. And Jacques Vallée writes about this concept of intermittent reinforcement, which comes from the psychologist B.F. Skinner, which is like if you give a rat cocaine, for example, and you give it regularly, like, you know, on the dot every day or whatever, it'll like, you know, come back and forth and like, it'll not care as, I mean, it's cocaine, so it'll probably want it, but like, like if you give a rat cocaine intermittently, randomly, sporadically, it will freak out and just get obsessed. And maybe cocaine is not the best example, but anything sweet, you know, it will become obsessed with the thing because there is something about the intermittency that makes it special. If it's regular, it doesn't care. It knows it's there. It knows it's going to be there at all times. And so I think there is something about about the UFO phenomenon where it's trickstery, it always leaves a variable left to be questioned. And the end product is the person's obsession for truth after the fact. Yeah, because there's, there's never going to be this smoking gun.

It always has a slight stigma attached to it. That almost like a design feature of ufology itself is the fact that I've never seen a field where there there's this much evidence, but there is very little incontrovertible smoking gun evidence. There is this much— there's so much evidence that, like, you know, I had Michael Shermer, you know, famous skeptic on my show who I know you've had on, you know, many times. And I feel like I ran circles around him. Yeah. Because he's not engaging with these really important datasets around UFOs showing up around nuclear sites and that sort of thing. Like, you can really argue with or you can convince any reasonable person that there is something going And then it's very hard to figure out exactly what, and for whatever reason, there's this like sort of mystery box smoking gun that maybe Bob Lazar has seen. David Grusch, I think, is this really fascinating person because he has, he brought forward 40 people who claim to have firsthand knowledge to the Intelligence Community Inspector General. So that makes him pretty special because he has this like really bird's-eye vantage point from around all this stuff and he's obviously— he himself has an eidetic memory.

He's somewhat on the spectrum, which he talks about. So he has this really, really kind of crazy attention to detail. So it makes him this really interesting sort of person. You have things like that and then like, I don't know if there's a saucer in a hangar at Wright-Patt. I'd love to see it. It would be awesome. And then you get into this sort of, well, you know, if that's like a payload delivery system, then obviously we can't see it because it's like this national security thing. But it's almost like a design feature of the thing itself. Like, if you were to tell Jacques Vallée in 1975, or, you know, in the '60s when he was J. Allen Hynek's assistant, hey, like, this is how much progress we've made on UFOs, I think I think from the perspective of disclosure, he might be pumped about the last 10 years, but from the perspective of understanding what the fuck they are, he'd be like, "I had the best theory back then. I had really good theories back then." So it's really crazy. We're in the Stone Age on this stuff. Actually, somebody who's really up on, I think he's responsible for a lot of modern disclosure, but he's blown by a lot of people is Tom DeLonge, the Blink-182.

Right? He's— I thought he was a loon when he came on my show. But more and more as time has gone on, the things that he said have been proven to be true.

Totally. And now, and I don't want to talk too much out of turn, but like, I, because I'm friends with him and he has some really interesting theories around consciousness and how like these events sort of occur when things are really unstable. Either to discard things that are unstable and that are threatening to sort of the system à la nuclear or to save something that is essential to preserve the system. It's almost this regulatory thing. It's really fascinating. It's like he's now miles ahead of, I think, where a lot of—

To me, I was always like, "OK, why are they bringing Tom DeLonge in to have conversations?" Nations. And now, you know, like, like he was being sort of briefed by very high-level intelligence people, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And that, that whole story of the To the Stars Academy is a strange, interesting— it's all fucking weird.

It's also weird that you would get the fucking drummer, or the— what did he do in Blink-182?

I think he was the frontman. I think frontman.

Yeah. Not the drummer. That was Travis, obviously. Uh, like that you get a guy who's a big-time rock star.

He was obsessed his entire life, and I think— so yeah, I think he was surrounded by some very interesting people, and in certain cases, not so savory people, to be totally honest. Really? Yeah, or just people who are associated with— Source of information? Yeah, or like, you know, James Clapper, who like, you know, probably lied in front of Congress about wiretapping, so like, why should we trust on the UFO stuff. And I'm not saying that Tom was necessarily— I don't know who exactly he was in touch with, but I think it was like that crowd of people. But I think what people don't understand, and this is what I pieced together from just knowing him, I think he has sort of vigilante gotten in touch with a lot— like a lot of these people shut the door in his face, and he's like, "No, I'll fly out there and I'll do anything, and I'll help communicate this way. I know you guys have been trying to communicate this forever to the to the public and like, maybe I can help or whatever. And I think a lot of it just stemmed from his desire to know and his like true passion for this that started from when he was a kid.

And that was like super organic.

But you also have to think like if you wanted to get a narrative out there, what better way than get a really famous rock star? Sure. Feed him some whore shit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's possible. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah, but also if you read Secret Machines, I think there's a lot, then that's, you know, he's written some books actually. And if you read the books, there are some really interesting things kind of hidden in plain sight that end up getting corroborated in my own open-source research. So I'll give you an example. He says that a UFO possibly came out of the sky during a high-altitude nuclear test in the Marshall Islands in the early '60s. So these are these famous, you know, Bikini Atoll, Johnston Atoll, you know, Operation Dominic tests. And I think it was— he called it, yeah, during the Starfish Prime series. And I thought that, you know, that was nuts. Like, what are you talking about? Like, a UFO came out of the plume? I know they show up around nuclear sites, but really, did the UFO come out of the plume? So I end up interviewing this guy. He's a presidential advisor to JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and Ford. And he is 89 years old, completely, like, sharp as a tack, like, with it, and just has this elite kind of macro, kind of, you know, exact picture of the world in his head.

I think he worked closely with Kissinger and, like, just really, really knew his sort of stuff when it came to just prosaic, conventional political trends, you know, outside of UFO stuff. And he had been tweeting some interesting things about UFOs, and then he starts going into this story, and I'm like, what? Like, so basically he goes, I was in charge of the cost assessment for one of these high-altitude nuclear tests. It's called the Bluegill Triple Prime test, part of the Starfish Prime series, in 1962, in October, actually during the Cuban Missile Crisis. It was October 25th. And he goes, we didn't have any way to defend against Soviet ICBMs at the time, so we— exactly. This is a GIF playing.

I can't control the video, so I was trying to listen.

So this is, this is the video of the test, and that white triangle was superimposed on— and there, that's the UFO falling out of the plume, which is insane. So explain it again. Okay, so, so basically falling out of the plume, a possible UFO object. Yeah, that thing.

Well, you know about the images that were taken. You know, those— what is the method that was used where they observed reflective things in the sky from— what was it? Was it radar or what? Do you know what I'm talking about, Jamie? We've discussed this before. —like they have photographs of the sky. They have some sort of an image of the sky from the 1960s, and they showed that there were multiple things that were metallic that were—

I think you might be talking about Beatriz Villarreal, this Stockholm University astrophysicist. That's it. She's amazing. So I'll get back to this in a second. Yeah, go ahead. But she basically has these astronomical plates from the Palomar Observatory. That's what it is. Palomar Observatory was the most prominent —observatory in use at the time. And she has these transients that she's gotten on these astronomical plates. The plates have basically this emulsion that's sensitive to light so that, you know, basically when light goes through, you know, the optical circuitry of the telescope and then it hits the plate, you see like stars and planets and all sorts of things. You have a record of what's in the sky, right? And she saw 105,000 what she calls transients. Transients, which are light-reflecting mirror-like objects, probably in geostationary orbit, which is where I think we see a lot of UFOs. And this is before Sputnik, before a man-made satellite was ever in space. This is from 1949 to 1957. It gets crazier because a PhD from Vanderbilt University named Steven Bruell then correlated those transients. They show up more around nuclear detonations, nuclear tests. It's wild, right? And you have people like Brian Keating and, you know, Sabine Hossenfelder, who are like conventional physicists who are talking about this now, who are like, yeah, we don't really have a perfect debunk on this.

Some people have thrown cosmic rays at it. Some people have said, you know, um, uh, yeah, solar rays, but neither of those make any sense. And then, then there's a, a former NASA, um, astronomer named Ivo Busco Ivo Busco, who showed that some of these transits have— they're called— it's called a coma, which is like a little kind of looks like a little comet tail on the transient. And that gets created by the optical circuitry of the telescope itself. So the number one debunk on Beatrice was that these transients were artifacts of chemical staining and like issues. They call them plate defects. And Ivo Busco is basically saying, no, the light is going through the telescope. Telescope. It's going through the telescope, so it has to be an artifact of something outside of the telescope. So you, you're left with one conclusion, which is UFOs. And then you get into the fact that NASA has what are called, like, uncorrelated targets all the time. Like, there's noise in the sky. There are transients that are detected all the time in the sky, and we just sort of rule it out all the time. So it's, it's a— it's really crazy.

And it's— I think it's very hard to debunk. And if she Here's— if she proves this to be true, this is a not only Copernican-level discovery, it is greater than that. It is a wild, wild discovery. And I have— I don't know, I don't want to say I'm like, you know, 100% sure it's legit. You know, it's a little beyond my pay grade when it comes to the science, but I have not heard one good debunk on it. Not one. Whoa.

Yeah, you would love talking to her. It's also— there's some speculation about some of these things falling from the sky that they took place because of these high-altitude to nuclear tests.

So that's what this Bluegill Triple Prime test— so this is an example. So Tom DeLonge wrote about this Starfish Prime test in Secret Machines, and a lot of this stuff is sort of, you know, codes hidden in plain sight, and he had amazing sources. I mean, one of his sources is this general who's now missing, William Neal McCasland, who was in charge of the entire Special Access Program Oversight Committee, and what he told Tom is, he goes, you want to know about the UFO issue, all you're going to find are a bunch of blind men touching different parts of an elephant, which is, I think, the whole fallacy of modern UFO disclosure. It's not like there's this line in the sand, oh, here's the truth, we're going to give it to you. It's like, oh, we have this program here and this program here, and we're testing this stuff, but we don't really understand what it is, and it's kind of confusing. And so, okay, so, so DeLong writes about the Starfish Prime, you know, test, right, where this UFO comes out of Plume. I interviewed this guy, Harold Malmgren, who is well known in D.C. circles as this, like, elite statesman outside of UFOs, like, just kind of renowned, good, you know, very impressive reputation.

He discusses being in charge of cost assessments for this specific Starfish Prime test called the Bluegill Triple Prime test, where you put this X-ray device within the nose cone of a Thor-X1 missile, and it's specifically basically so that when, you know, the nuke detonates, the X-ray blast then can take out any surrounding ICBMs. So it's— there was no way to guard against Soviet ICBMs. This was the way to do it. He said in my interview with him that in fact, all along, you know, this may have been this sort of ploy to take out UFOs as well. His mentor, by the way, is Richard Bissell, was the number 2 in the entire CIA and founded Area 51. And yeah, wild. Whoa. Yeah. And so he is in charge of the cost assessment for this thing. He says that there's this— he gets briefed on it, and he finds out that this object comes out of the plume of this thing. And he goes, what is going on? He goes, I want access to that, this thing. And he gets like, I think, kind of stonewalled a little bit. He ends up at the Sandia Complex in New Mexico, one of these national labs labs, and Lawrence Preston Geiss, who went on to found DARPA and is Jeff Bezos's maternal grandfather, hands him pieces of the UFO.

And he says— and very sadly passed away a few weeks after I interviewed him, so there's so much more, you know, we wanted to learn and know about, you know, about this testimony— but he says he held the pieces of the UFO in his hand. And There's a Freedom of Information Act request around the Starfish Prime series saying, "I want all records from Starfish Prime series on UAVs, UFOs, UAPs, every acronym related to UFOs." And the National Nuclear Security Administration gets back and they say, "You know, the responsive records that you asked for, you know, we referred them to the right subject matter expert." expert, implying that there are responsive records, that there are records from the National Nuclear Security Administration, which guards all nuclear secrets, around UFOs at the time. There's also a guy named David Noble White Crow who, I think it was a different Starfish Prime test, claimed to see a UFO like on his Navy ship. Um, there's a guy named Bob Jacobs, uh, who I've interviewed, who's a photo instrumentation specialist, who says that, um, there were rumors of an object having fallen, fallen, you know, down from the sky.

In fact, if you look at the Navy deck logs— I just interviewed the Navy's former chief oceanographer, named a guy named Tim Gallaudet. He is as well-versed in Navy deck logs as anybody, and as, you know, credentialed and qualified to read them as anybody. And he says that these look very anomalous and weird, and like they retrieved something. And I think there was an outage on one of the ships. And there was an admiral named Admiral Starbird, who was named, I guess, who was the senior officer present afloat, who flew in a huff at 4:00 AM. Once this thing was retrieved, he flew at 4:00 AM back stateside.

So this is a much better video of it.

So there are two vantage points, and both were EG&G planes, and EG&G comes up all over nuclear sort of stuff. And Kettle One and Kettle Two, and Kettle Two 2. And there's actually an Australian intelligence analyst named Geoff Cruikshank who does an amazing analysis of all this stuff. And he calls this the Kettle 1 footage, where you can see the UFO coming out. And the Kettle 2 footage is this— it looks exactly like that footage, but there's a white triangle over the object coming out. And some people are like, oh, it's an emulsion defect, it's, you know, whatever. He went to— he asked for a mandatory declassification review of this thing. And I think the guy in charge of it was a guy named Byron Ristvedt. Vet, and that guy goes, we lost the— we lost the video. We lost the video. So it's either an emulsion defect or you lost the video. But like, you have multiple stories. It's just like Roswell where it's like, you have— it's either crash dummies or it's a weather balloon or it's just a, you know, or it's Project Mogul, high-altitude radar balloon. You have 3 different stories, or it's just fucking aliens, you know, or something, you know.

So it's really crazy. Crazy. And his Wikipedia was completely changed and destroyed the day after. It was totally messed up, and this hit piece was written about him, and it was actually after he died, so it was really fucked up, because it was like kicking this guy after he passed away. And I think it was such an amazing, courageous testimony that I think will stand the test of time.

Why do you think they attacked him, just to try to dismiss whatever he was saying?

To throw mud on it. I think a lot of counterintel in the space is not necessarily trying to shut down conversation entirely, but it's throwing mud on it. It's keeping it in this liminal space of like, I don't know, it could have happened, but— Right. And so they moved him from presidential advisor to Japanese whaling lobbyist, because he worked with every prime minister in Japan since Takana in the '70s. '70s, and so they're— and down to Shinzo Abe, and they're calling him a— like, there was some scandal or something, and that, like, that, that was what they were identifying him with, was this wailing lob. It's so crazy.

God, they're so good at that. They're so good at throwing mud on things.

It's so crazy. And it was infuriating, to be honest. It was really upsetting because here was a guy who he just pattern matched to this, like, really such a brilliant guy, and he had all these other amazing things to say about global macro politics, JFK's assassination, all these interesting things, and you're just like, kind of really messing with his legacy, or you're kicking him when he's— after he passed away.

It's fucked up. It is fucked up, but that is what they do. Yeah. What is your take on Whitley Strieber?

I think I love Whitley as a person, and I think he— again, it's probably one of those things where in upstate New York, as he describes in Communion, something probably happened. He probably is one of these people who like, if we are nodes of consciousness that attract either very normal things or weird things based on our aperture and our sort of understanding of reality, his is wide open, you know. He is, he is extremely high in the openness category. And I think that's where things get kind of sticky with some of these sort of super experiencers, because I think they are often very credulous. But that goes hand in hand with having a lot of weird experiences. And so I think Whitley's gotten stuff wrong. I, I do. Um, and, uh, you know, uh, hopefully don't come down on me, UFO community, for saying that. I I think he has said some wacky things that I'm like— Like what? I don't— well, we talked about one of them. I don't know if you remember that. Which one was it? It was like he said that there was a fly that—

Yeah, I remember that one. Yeah, I brought that one up before because I remember watching a video. I'm like, okay, what are you doing? Because there was a fly. He's like, is that a man in a suit? Yeah, I remember that. I was like, wait, I can't find that video, by the way. I've tried very hard to find that video after the fact.

I think very strange stuff does go on. You know what he says? He says, I was picked as a node for disclosure because of the plot. It would be plausibly deniable. It's what you're talking about, where there is— he's this hor— he was this horror writer. He was a fiction writer before he had his encounter, which is also part of the problem.

It's part of the problem. Incredible imagination, for sure.

And then it's also part of his ability to decide— it's why Communion was a bestseller. So it's this weird, like, it's creates this like sort of cult-like mythology. And then I look, I know a lot of experiencers where I'm like, I know that, I mean, I really believe them that they've had experiences with, you know, Grays specifically. And it's a very common trope that they'll walk by Communion in like a Barnes Noble bookstore and it'll freak them out. And that will be like their own hypnotic regression. They'll be like, oh, like they've never seen a Gray before. And that's the first time they've seen a Gray.

Yeah. The COVID of the book is amazing. It's amazing. Who else had a book called Communion? Remember we had them on and we were like, do you know that your book is the same title as a Whitley Strieber book but it's completely different? Who, remember that, Jamie? Someone like fairly recently. We have too many people on this fucking show. My hard drive's cooked. JD Vance. JD Vance, that's right! Oh, he had a book called Communion. That's right!

While simultaneously calling aliens demons. Demons.

Yeah, he didn't really have a good explanation for that. No, he didn't. I pressed him on that.

And he kind of laughed very uncomfortably because he didn't know what to say.

I, I think, with all due respect to Mr. Vance, who I really like as a person, I think he's a very nice guy, uh, I think he's signaling to the tribe.

It is, it is. It's a political polemic. You're not looking at the data. Like he says, I want to look into the UFO issue, I just haven't had the time. I actually understand that there's a lot going on in the world. The You know, but it's also, you've had some time, so maybe, you know, go look into it.

I kind of understand it, but kind of don't.

I'm with you. I'd be the first to admit that.

You have plenty of time to go to church. Like, listen, bro, look into it. Look into it. Exactly. To quote Eddie Bravo, "Look into it." It's weird that you would say it's demons. But I think that much like Tucker Carlson has sort of alluded to this as well, I think there's a certain aspect to people that are believers, right? Okay, when I say believers, I'm talking about not like Christian believers, believers in the Bible, believers in the narrative that comes along with Christianity, you know, and that for them, there's like, if you say, I believe they're demons, like, he's on our side. There's, you know, there's a, there's, you will, you will attract those people. They will, that will resonate with certain people. And I do think very unfortunately that there are politicians that say things things, we both know this, that they don't necessarily believe because they think that their base wants to hear it. Totally.

Yeah. Yeah. You're a traditionalist. You're like, why do we have to deal with this new agey bullshit? You know, it's just, you know, go back to the scripture. They're demons. Oh, I like it.

I like how this guy's talking.

Exactly. And it ends the conversation because then it's like, okay, but if there are demons, there are Angels too? And what is a demon and what is an angel?

Also, where's the evidence that these demons are doing anything demonic?

Well, here's where it gets interesting, which is if you actually talk to Jacques Vallée, who I do think is probably as deep as anybody as far as decades studying this stuff, going to, you know, 100+ crash sites, talking to probably thousands of experiencers, and he'll often say, you know, some of this stuff does pattern match to demonic behavior, where it is sort of this, you know, getting you to chase your tail. It's, you know, they— you're— it's paralyzing you. You know, in some cases, it's sort of, you know, angelic as well. In the case of, you know, Mario and Michael, it's— they say, "Do not fear. Do not fear." That's exactly what Daniel in the Bible heard, you know, on the banks of the Tigris. "Do not fear" is— if the Bible— if the angels in the Bible have like a, you know, a catchphrase, it's "Do not fear." and so he actually notes that there are some similarities. So, I think there are two failure modes, right? It's the end of the conversation, like, you know, "I'm religious. I don't want to hear it," sort of thing. And then on the other side, it's like, you can't even look at the Bible as data, or like any past mythology or lore as possibly overlapping with, you know, sulfur and ammonia seem to be the smell.

Sulfur is the sign, you know, so, you know, that being Being at Varginha, where that thing crawling around, that probably would have been called a demon 1,000, 2,000 years ago. Especially when you look at it.

It was like a weird colored body with red eyes, and it looked like it had these tiny little horns. Totally.

By the way, I just interviewed the former Brazilian Defense Minister, and I brought up Varginha, and he goes, "I believe it happened." Whoa. Whoa. So we're making progress. Allegedly. Allegedly.

Well, then there's also the guy who was physically in contact with it that died.

The guy— yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, exactly. Yeah, James Fox, watch Moment of Contact if you want to know what we're talking about. Basically, you have 15 to 20 people alive today in this small town in Virginia, 130,000-person town. And they knew nothing about Roswell, UFOs, you know, they're— it's this town in Brazil. And in 1996, in January, James Fox, this amazing researcher, documentarian, has triangulated the flight path of this kind of tic-tac object that came down. This, uh, this ultralight pilot and geography teacher named Carlos de Souza was first on the scene. He smells all, you know, this sort of weird sulfur ammonia smell. He actually holds the material apparently, and then it's taken from him by, I guess, ESA is this nearby military base. 15 minutes later, he has this sort of Men in Black experience where somebody comes up to him at a gas station, seems to know everything about him and his family, and swears him to secrecy. Meanwhile, the beings are running around this town, and the beings end up in this hospital, Reginalis Hospital, and this neurosurgeon who I've met and interviewed, who was the chief neurosurgeon, basically like probably the most senior guy in Varginha, but I think even senior, you know, in Brazil as far as, you know, neurosurgeons go, he says that he treated this being and that— or I guess he was face-to-face with the being for 4 minutes, and he was checking the work of this, of his colleague who had treated the being who had done this like minor surgery on the being.

And apparently if you go to this hospital and you say like, hey, uh, you know, is this the being where the ET was treated? They'll be like, yeah, yeah, this is it. And, and Virginia itself has a big saucer. Yeah. You know, that in homage to this entire event. It's amazing.

Well, that's— what's up?

I hate, I hate doing this, but please do. I just was looking up like, you know, uh, perplexity. I asked Virginia UFO incident debunked or not. Never have done that before. Before, and I've never heard this brought up, uh, this is a known guy. His name is Mudinho from that area, and he is in the exact same position as the alien picture.

Yeah, weird. Yeah, but if you, if you treated that guy for a head wound, you would just— you would know that, right?

He's a— and does he smell like sulfur right now? Disabilities, who's reportedly seen crouching in heavy that they did a 600-page inquiry. Could have appeared dirty or unusual.

Military's, uh—

Could he have flown in on a craft with—

And again, I'm just sort of saying— Was he so stinky that when the officer brought him into the hospital, the guy died of a bacterial infection they couldn't treat? That's the crazy thing.

Then there's this guy, Marco Chiarisi, who's the soldier that grabbed the ET being and apprehended it, and his whole family knows about this. And then he gets an autopsy. I interviewed the guy. Who did the autopsy, and he was like, this was like this gnarly form of this bacteria that I've never seen in my life. And the guy who's president of IPD, which is the company that does the autopsy report, he even said, yeah, I think it was from the nail of the ET accidentally, you know, the being didn't mean any harm to this guy, but there was a puncture wound and it created this horrible viral infection, or I think it was bacterial infection, and he died of that. That. So crazy.

Yeah. What?

It's so nuts.

But I mean, the Virginia one is really crazy.

It's really crazy.

It's like there's so many people that— but then the problem is like, I would love to have talked to them in 1996 individually without them knowing that this was going to be a global story, and when they can all sync up their memories.

I know, I know. And I'm praying that we get a case like that that, you know, at some point. We're in it. Look, it's better than Roswell, 1947, right? You know, we're really reading the tea leaves on that. So it's 1996, you have 15 to 20 people alive who have either, either saw the craft or the being. That's pretty amazing.

Those young ladies, they were girls at the time, and then when they get interviewed later when they're grown women and they're talking about the incident, it's very strange. I think the strangest one is the cop who goes to the scene of the crash and starts weeping and he starts to, like, really— I'm like, "Okay, well, either this cop is the best actor that's never been in a movie ever, or he's having a real response to some sort of crazy memory of an event." That was Carlos de Souza, the geography teacher.

And he led them around, to your point, for 2 hours or something before finding that spot. And I think if you were acting, you'd be like, "Yeah, this is the spot." You wouldn't, like, be like— You wouldn't be like, "Wait, there was a white shed there, and it's not here anymore," and confused, and apparently there was a white shed there that was removed or whatever. Whatever. And then finally, when he sees the spot, you just see him palpably break down. It's not this— unless, yeah, you're, you know, taking some acting class on the side.

Not only that, you're a fucking genius. You're the next Daniel Day-Lewis. Like, what are you doing wasting your time in Brazil telling UFO stories? You go to Hollywood, young man. Yeah, it's, uh, it's— but it's also the problem is I want to believe it.

That's also the problem. Me too.

You know, I don't want to believe it's And like the thing about like Roswell in particular, Roswell, it has become an industry, right? There's the whole tourist trap thing. There's the little gray, you could buy things and knickknacks at stores. Totally. You know, it's like it's got this whole connection to it.

It does. It does. It's its own cottage industry. It becomes people's identities. So they often want to keep it going. And then sometimes they're like, and this other thing happened to me too. Wait, you know, come back sort of thing.

—but did you see the conversation that Travis Walton had with Bob Lazar in a diner?

Yeah, that was on my buddy's show, uh, Chris Ramsey.

What a weird way to do a show, have a diner scene, and they're like, you have these two guys sitting across from each other. It's very odd how they did it, but I didn't think that was necessary. But, but the conversation's interesting.

It's super interesting to hear the similarities between, you know, their accounts and, yeah, things that line up. And they don't— those two guys are also also kind of again in that top tier of like, you spend time with them. I haven't spent time with Travis Walton, but I have with Bob. And it's like, you know this, it's like really hard to poke holes in the story. And they just, to go back to our original, you know, OG, the top of this conversation, like the pattern matching is just there with him. He doesn't seem like a bullshitter.

Travis doesn't seem like a bullshitter at all. You know, I talked to him for several hours and, you know, before and after the show. And he's also a guy who's had the same story for 50 years. It's the same story. Yeah. It doesn't really vary. They all took lie detector tests. Yeah. One of the guys that was a part of the crew actually hated him and got in a fistfight with him the day of the event. And he told the exact same story. Yeah.

And he came back. There was missing time. And I think he came back with a full-grown beard. 5 days later. 5 days later. Yeah. Yeah, it's very strange.

But his clothes weren't dirty. He's like, and he had this insane story.

And they all stuck to the same story.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, they thought those guys killed him at first.

So they were— They did. They were questioning him.

Yeah. They're like, where the fuck is he? And they're telling the story. They're like, what? And then he comes back 5 days later and tells the story. And they're like, what is— like, what? Did you guys all plan this? Like, what the fuck is going on? But it doesn't seem like they He did.

So trippy, and he like touched the craft and it had this electromagnetic charge or something and like bounced off of it.

Either he touched it or he got close to it, right?

He got close to it. And that's common to, yeah, maybe he got close, I don't know. But that's common for UFO experiencers where it's like you experience like weird electromagnetic effects where it's like almost like you're getting a sunburn where you get like UV damage. It's actually in "Close Encounters of the Third Kind," it's depicted where Richard Dreyfuss literally has a sunburn after his encounter.

On one side of his face, where it was to the left of his face, 'cause it was outside of the window.

Exactly, exactly. And Mario Woods also in Ellsworth, South Dakota, he also had burns and he didn't know where they came from. They took skin samples.

And what'd they discover? I don't know.

I think that part's classified, unfortunately. Oh God.

Wouldn't you just love to have an actual experience yourself? I mean, imagine thinking about all the time you spent studying this and you haven't had an actual experience yourself.

I've seen UFOs, but I haven't— I know I haven't had a close encounter of the third kind. What have you seen? I saw in Laurel Canyon, I saw a UFO, and then in Silver Lake. I saw you. So weird places to see you in LA. What'd they look like? One was— I told I told one of them on your show. I think I told both of them on your show. But one was like a school bus sort of thing, which is really weird. It was like, you know, kind of rectangular. And it was hovering like right above the treetops. It was not very high. And it was sort of silently moving over the treetops. And I was with a friend at the time, and she saw the UFO like descend over the treetops. Ships, like, like, like go into some— you know, we were in a residential area, it was in Laurel Canyon. And so that was very strange. I didn't see that. I didn't see it sort of descend. I just saw it go over. And it— but it looked like a floating, again, school bus, like a thing. And there's like no visible propulsion.

It was the strangest thing.

How fast was it moving?

That's hard for me to say.

I don't know. Not fast.

Not fast. Like it could have been a balloon. There's no Really?

No. Why? Because it's floating like a balloon, like a— because it was like helium balloon.

Yeah, I get— maybe it could have been a large balloon. Maybe. I don't know. It was like— it was right above the treetops and you heard this sort of little hum. And I don't know, I don't— I don't— I don't know. I don't think it was a balloon, but maybe it was a balloon.

I mean, think about blimps. Like if you didn't know what a blimp was and you saw that thing flying overhead, you're like, oh my God, we're being invaded.

I've seen plenty of blimps and they're usually like really high in the sky.

And this thing like— But they don't have to be, right? That's how they come down. Yeah. Right?

This thing was definitely not a plane, but I can't— I don't remember the exact, you know, details as to what.

No noise?

Like kind of like a low bassy thing, but no like —like not normal propulsion. Like bassy? Like it was like a— Like a— Yeah, that sort of thing. Yeah. Ooh.

Like the fan that's moving the balloon.

But not at all like a chopper or a plane or anything. And yeah, I don't know. As far as— it just looked metallic. Like if it was a blimp or something, it would have been like perfectly— like, I don't know. It had some sophisticated signature management to look like it was like, you know, perfectly metallic and shiny.

But like Mylar balloons, they look very metallic.

Yeah, but I think you could see that it was floating. You could see that, you know, possibly that it was moving with the wind. Mm-hmm. And this didn't look like it was moving with the wind at all. Looked like it was sort of moving against the wind. Hmm. I mean, not, not necessarily moving against it, but moving agnostic to the wind is what I'm trying to say.

If there was a way where you could sit down and conjure up an experience with something, would you do it?

Conjure up an experience? What do you mean?

Like, if you could, in a meditative state, access, like, whatever connection and have, like, a Betty and Barney Hill type experience.

I wouldn't try to artificially do that necessarily. Really? I mean, I would love to have an experience, but maybe organically, like, if it's sort of, you know, meant for me sort of thing. But that is, there are whistleblowers who've come out, this guy like Jake Barber, for example, that talks about essentially programs forcing people systematically to conjure up these sorts of experiences.

Right, that's why I asked. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, yeah, no, and I think there's, so I think there's a long tradition of communing with these sorts of things that goes back to like kind of Merkabah, Kabbalistic practices. You know, Neoplatonists would call it theurgy, like, you know, kind of communing with deities. And I don't think it's a coincidence that I think there are aspects of, you know, Stephen Greer, say what you will about the guy, CE5, there are aspects of that that are maybe similar to some of these sort of protocols that involve sort of communing with these things. And traditionally, you're not supposed to do this stuff unless you you are like fully like of pure intent, you're probably older. Like you're not supposed to start Kabbalah, for example, until you're 35. Really? Yeah, I think you're supposed to be married as well. You're supposed to be like very rooted in reality. Interesting. Yeah. So, and then there's like—

That's like a Jewish mysticism, right?

That's a Jewish mysticism, but there are Christian versions of it. And, you know, I think there are versions of it kind of across history. The Neoplatonists had a version of it as well. So, you know, I think this is something that, yeah, I think the Jews had it with, you know, Ezekiel's wheel and the kind of Merkabah texts, but I think there's more. Yeah.

Well, the weird stuff when you get into the Bible itself is the stuff that wasn't put in the Bible.

I know what you're going to say.

Yeah, the Enoch stuff.

That's so weird.

The Enoch stuff is really weird.

Yeah.

And when they find you find it in these clay tablets in Qumran, along with books in the Bible, like the book of Isaiah was also in there. Like, okay, what was that?

And how much that sounds like Greek mythology, like these gods sort of mating with mankind.

Yeah. And apparently, it's still in the Ethiopian Bible. The Ethiopian Bible has all of the books of Enoch, all the different tales of the Watchers and the Book of the Watchers and all that stuff where they came down and mate with the daughters of men and created the Nephilim. That's in the Ethiopian Bible.

That is so trippy. It's so trippy. It's so trippy. And then they create the Nephilim. And then you get into the Timothy Alberino stories, which, you know, I know he was on your podcast where there might be giants in Afghanistan that the Air Force has encountered in the early 2000s. And you had Devin Larratt on as well. Well, you know, was he a famous arm wrestler? Is that right?

Who served for the Canadian Special Forces in Afghanistan and saw a man there was like massive. He said he was like 8 feet tall.

And I think a mutual friend of ours, Brigham Bueller, shout out Ways to Well, they're the best. He has an employee who also I think was Special Forces in Afghanistan. And he says that there were, I think, you know, large beings there, like giants there as well. So it's like a bunch of like anecdotal, and that's just us.

That's just, you know, so yeah, it's fucking super weird. And do you know that these, the latest take on the Denisovans, or Denisovans, however you want to say it, you know, which is a very recent discovery, I think the first even recognition that there was another type of human called Denisovan, I think that's how they pronounce pronounce it. I always say Dennis Ovan. They believe they might be much larger than human beings now. They used to think that they were squat like Neanderthals and thick brows, but now they realize their heads were much larger than ours and that these could potentially have been 8-foot-tall people. I didn't realize that. That's crazy. Yeah. This is fairly recent. So when was the— put this into perspective, perplexity. When was the discovery of Denisovans or Denisovans? I want to say it's real recent, like maybe 2016 or something like that, like real recent where they didn't even know that there was this branch of the human species.

I feel like we've discovered a large percentage of hominids in the last 20 years.

2010. There you go. Okay. So, okay. They found it in Siberia in 2008. 2008. Um, it was identified as a previously unknown group of archaic humans in 2010. The key fossil, small finger bone, has been excavated from the Denisova Cave in Siberia in 2008, but DNA analysis published in 2010 revealed it belonged to a population distinct from both Neanderthals and modern humans. Um, I think they have more now than just the finger bone, and I think that is where they're getting at. Um, I think they have skulls. Uh, various— uh, highest known— oh, this is people who have the DNA. So, just some DNA estimations. Melanesian populations, especially people with ancestry in Papua New Guinea and nearby Pacific Islands, roughly 4 to 6% of their genomes. That's interesting. What, let's find out how many bones they have available. Because I think there's brow ridge bones and there's skull bones that seem to indicate that it had a larger skull than humans. And they think, how much bone has been recovered or found? Let's find out. Do, do, do, do. Very little. Little. Uh, Denisovans are known for a small number of fragmentary fossils, not complete skeletons.

Uh, do they have skull? They have a mandible, a partial lower jaw from the Tibetan Plateau. It was identified as Denisovan through ancient protein analysis rather than recoverable Denisovan DNA. No complete Denisovan skull or skeleton just Google for— I mean, excuse me, search for me Denisovan skull. Like, see if there's images, because I think there's a brow. Mm, like, the problem is it's like you're, you're looking for stuff. Yeah, so like, what is that? Is that just a recreation of what it looks like? Well, it seems like a recreation, but this is what they think it looked like.

It's like a Eugene Levy situation.

Huge eyebrows. Look at the, the brow ridge. Yeah. So how much is this real? And what is this AI? Like, what is this? Well, I know it's complexity not caught up to the latest evidence.

Like, in Peru, Paracas skulls are 30% higher volume, I think, often than normal skulls.

Some of them are. Some of them are. That's the weird shit with the elongated heads. That gets real weird. This has a fairly elongated head as well. But it's not like upwardly. It seems to like move towards the back, but it's a pretty large— so is that an actual— I don't know, I'm trying to figure out. So if that's an actual Denisovan skull, it seems like Perplexity is relying on older data or older papers. Because I do think that this is part of why they're saying that they think they might have been much larger.

Hmm.

What's going on? This is natural history. What is being eaten? Hyena bone. That they were eating hyena bones?

See, like, I just pulled this picture off of this website.

I don't know if— Okay. Fossil evidence of a mysterious southern Denisovans yet to be found.

A replica of a Homo erectus cranium. So, okay.

That's from Indonesia. I know, but I'm just saying that's—

this picture showed up. Right.

So that's what that is. But what— so what is that image of the prominent brow ridge, like that one, yeah. I know, it's that.

I'm trying to track it down. That's coming from a Nature article that I couldn't get into because it was paywalled. So if they haven't found this much, then I think based off of the pictures I'm seeing, they probably built it off of this tooth they found. Mm. And then expanded out to here because there's a little picture of a tooth right there, but.

Right. I don't know. So that seems like a jawbone that they found. So if that— if it turns— again, we're talking about something that's recently discovered. They only knew that this thing existed 16 years ago, which is really a part of the problem with this whole term fossil record. You know, we like to think of the fossil record as being a library. It's not. No. It's like, it's really limited in terms of like how many things that die leave fossils. It's a tiny fraction.

Same with the archaeological record.

It's the same thing. Same thing. Well, at least the archaeological record, we have physical stuff. But we can look at, you know, Sacsayhuaman, we can look at the pyramids, we're gonna— we don't really know what happened and who built it, but at least there's like physical stuff there that defies explanation. But if you have a cataclysm, right, right.

And we probably did during the Ice Age, you know.

Yeah, more than likely, more than likely. The idea that we didn't have a cataclysm seems silly at this point. It seems like there's just—

there's so much physical And it's almost like the longer we go, the more hominids we find, and the longer we go, the older things get archaeologically. Yep. And it's actually predictable. Like, it makes sense that both of those would be the case. Like, obviously our abilities to, like, map and have sensors and, like, figure this stuff out is increasing, and lower in the sediment layer of any sort of dig is going to be, like, older stuff. Yes. So archaeology is 200 years old. Old. Literally, the, the discoveries of the, you know, Babylonian cities 200 years ago, Syrian cities. Yeah. Have you seen—

I think he's an Italian guy— there is a new paper that's being published about the dating of the pyramids, and he's relying on erosion evidence.

Yeah, I think relative erosion method. Yes. Donini, I think. That's exactly him.

And he pushes it way back. Yeah, he pushes it back as recently as— I thought— God, I want to say like $16,000, and then the high end is $35,000 plus.

Yeah, it's crazy.

Which is like, wait, what? What are you talking about? Like, this is a 35,000-year-old building? What does that even mean? Who?

Who? Speaking of, did you see that they retracted this?

Oh, Filippo Biondi. Yes, he contacted me about this. He's very upset. Yeah, they retracted it without any explanation, without any justification.

My— I'd like to call it nuanced take is that I think— I don't think he's lying. I don't think he's a fraud, but I think that he needs to just open source his method because basically you have this synthetic aperture radar Doppler tomography, which is synthetic aperture radar is a known technique for, you know, radar imaging and it radar images at like very fine resolution and then and you have this ability to measure micro vibrations that transmit into the satellite signal. The thing that is only his, his and only his, is this Biondi method, which is this software where he is able to deduce these structures, you know, underneath the earth based on that. So do I think he's lying about the Gran Sasso Laboratory, which is, you know, this other sort of, I think, particle accelerator national lab out there that he was able to to perfectly measure and—

1.2 kilometers into a mountain.

Into a mountain. I would really hope not, and I don't think so. But then at the same time, I think it's like, dude, you gotta— You're talking about a Nobel Prize or something here. Just let it out. You either have to get really, really rich and keep it closed source, or the preference that I would have, and I think that would be best for humanity, is just open source the thing. And, you know, I think it's his life's work, so I think he's a little possessive around it. But yeah, that would be the one thing where I'm like, dude, just let it, let it out, or let somebody else replicate it.

Interesting, because, um, they've used this method to identify structures that are known to exist, and, um, they've—

right? Yeah. And I think the, uh, what is it, the Sha— the Osiris Shaft, I think.

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. So, and it's— and it got the right dimensions. And if it's correct, and if he's telling the truth about what it was able to deem from the particle accelerator, when it was looking at the particle accelerator, it got the exact dimensions of it. It knew where it was. And so it's like, we need to dig.

We need to do something.

Well, there's all those— that's the one thing that he brought up on the podcast, those shafts that exist around there. That have been filled up with debris and sand and dirt over time, that they need to clean that shit out and get down in there and find out, like, what is, 'cause we know that there's all these subterranean tunnels and passages that are all around Egypt. Like, for sure they know that that labyrinth exists. Yes. That Herodotus discovered and that he talked about in great detail. They know from ground penetrating radar, these great chambers in there.

Even Zahi Hawass will admit that there are tunnels underneath the Sphinx. Right. So like, I think more likely than not, there is something underneath the pyramids. Yeah. And then we just have to dig. We gotta get down there. And if you're Egypt and you're the Ministry of Culture, that's the most GDP-boosting thing you can think of.

Oh, God. Could you imagine if both— is it— what's the other guy's name? The Italian guy with the erosion Italian guy?

I think Donini. Donini.

Yeah. If Donini and Biondi— first of all, what a great fucking Italian duo. Like, if these two guys from Italy have cracked two different things, one of them with erosion science and the other one with ground-penetrating Doppler tomography— if those guys are correct, you're gonna have like a gigantic group of new people that want to come and check out each Egypt.

That would be so awesome. Yeah.

But you have to get past these gatekeepers of the timeline. The gatekeepers of the timeline really want to insist that 2500 BC is about as good as it gets. Yeah.

And it's like, it's all good. It's the land that modern Egypt is on. Like, that it's fine. Like, you can sort of like, take pride in the fact, even if it's older, and it's not necessarily like— It's still Egypt. It's still Egypt. It's amazing.

That's what's really dumb about the critics of these theories. They all want to attribute it to a bunch of different people. Like, you and I are fucking alien kooks, and we're not trying to. We're saying like, no, it's probably people had a super advanced civilization in that part of the world a long time ago. And what you're getting is multiple generations of people after the fact trying to recreate some of these ancient structures, and these ancient structures probably predated whatever civilization existed at 2500 BC.

Yeah, and you have to throw spaghetti at the wall. Like, it's like, it's your duty to speculate, because the conventional narratives don't make any sense. At all. At all. And you have people grasping at straws. There's a French guy, Jean-Pierre Houdin, who is like, you know, civil engineering chops, and he's talking about like an external ramp, but then an external ramp would, you know, the incline would be too high for these, you know, megaton bricks, you know, blocks. So then you end up with an internal ramp up as well. So it's like, we are— that is like the best explanation, right? Conventionally. And so let's try to figure it out and let's be a little creative and we don't need to like, you know, stay so narrow. Like all these skeptics are like, they're, you know, attack dogs for what? For what?

Well, the problem is they don't want these Jimmy Corsettis and Michael Buttons and all of these people that have enormous following online to have any point. They don't want that. They want to dismiss them outright, which is why they always use the same pejoratives. They always call them racists, and the white supremacy is one that they've attached to Graham, which is hilarious because he's married to an Indian woman. It's just— the whole thing is so stupid. Crazy. He's the most non-racist person you're ever gonna meet in your life. He's just completely open-minded. And also, that doesn't take away all the factual data, all the stuff that's like— the stuff that's really weird, that's hard to describe. When you're talking about a structure that is perfectly aligned, almost, to true north, south, east, and west, and has 2,300,000 stones, and used to be covered in smooth limestone, and somehow or another was the greatest structure that human beings have ever created, created and is bare minimum 4,500 years old. That is a mindfuck. And anybody who says that's not a mindfuck— and when you're talking about some of the stones, like particularly in the King's Chamber, that are hundreds of tons or 100 tons or 80 tons or whatever they are, and from hundreds of miles away through the mountains with no roads, no heavy machinery, and they're placed way the fuck up on the ceiling of this place perfectly.

Totally. There's also the weird mindfuck of the sarcophagus in the King's Chamber, which aligns with the same dimensions where you could fit the Ark of the Covenant in it. No way. Yes. Really? Oh, there's a lot of people that believe this. There's a real problem with the measuring of radioactivity too. They tried to say there's, there's a higher level of radioactivity inside the sarcophagus than in the outer walls. But the problem is, when people talk about radiation and stones, like stones are— they have a certain level of radiation just inherently. You know, like you can— like the sun has radiation. Yeah. Like there's—

like Geiger counters can go off. Yeah.

But the people that are like the real— they're really out there, they think that that might have been the positioning for the Ark of the Covenant and that it measures— like, if you look at the Bible's description of the dimensions of the Ark of the Covenant, it fits conveniently inside the sarcophagus in the King's Chamber. Whoa, that's crazy. It is crazy. What's also crazy that Graham believes that the Ethiopian Bible and these Ethiopian religious people who have supposedly this group of people that are supposed to watch over over the Ark of the Covenant, and that they are in possession of it, and that these people that watch over it, they all develop cataracts, and they can only do it for a little while, and then they wind up dying. So, they have like short tenures as the watchers of this, whatever the fuck this object is that they're calling the Ark of the Covenant.

Stories of their faces getting mangled if they walk inside. He was so afraid. This was actually, I think, one of his first articles for like a magazine before he got into all this stuff.

This is how it got him into it in the first place.

How did they get into it in the first place? You know, another crazy story is, I think it's Sir James Bruce was looking for the Ark of the Covenant, and he found the Book of Enoch, but he was searching for the Ark of the Covenant. But yeah, they think it's in Aksum, Ethiopia, and there are Templar crosses, I believe, on a church there as well. And so, and Graham talks about this. And so that's his connection because they, you know, they're obviously legends of the Templars being these sort of knights that guarded, you know, uh, you know, after, after the destruction of the temple, the Ark of the Covenant. And so maybe they actually did make it all the way down to Ethiopia, which is wild.

It's so wild. If that thing was actually in the center of the sarcophagus in the King's Chamber in the pyramid, whatever that thing is, it's so—

I mean, the, the one maybe counter argument, or something I'd be curious about, would the Nazis were obsessed with the Ark of the Covenant. Like, the Indiana Jones plot is like legit. Yeah, Himmler would go on these weird quests or whatever around this stuff. And I guess Italy and Ethiopia had that war around, around that time, I believe, right? Or like, why wouldn't the Nazis just go in and try to take this object? Maybe they weren't aware. Maybe they weren't aware. Who knows?

This guy Ohlendorf says he went and saw it in 1941. Oh, what? It's a replica.

He stated that he gained access in 1941 because he spoke classic— whoa, how do you say that— Geez, and appeared serious. However, he asserted the box inside was empty and described it as an empty middle to late medieval replica rather than the true biblical artifact. So he's the only guy that's gained access and this was in 1941. He's a British officer during World War II and later a professor of Ethiopian studies at the University of London. Interesting.

I want to know the details, like how does he know? Yeah, that it's an artifact or it's replica or— yeah, I'm sorry, that's a replica rather. Yeah, there are—

I did look this up just, I think, yesterday. Oh, you did?

Rabbit hole, Jamie. Captain Rabbit Hole over here.

I was like, I found on this rabbit hole because I was trying trying to find out where it happened to the, uh, Staff of Moses. I just was thinking about weird things that existed in history. And also the Ark of the Covenant— last time it was actually known where it was was 586 BC. Oh, so like when Jesus was around, no one knew where it was. That's interesting.

586, so hundreds of years before his—

600 years before Jesus. Wow.

Yeah, I know the walls of Jericho were supposed to come down I think. Yeah, the Ark of the Covenant.

Babylonian, uh, destruction of Jerusalem. They tore down the cathedral. Which also, I stumbled across something called the Madaba Map. Have you ever heard of that?

No.

Uh, it was found— it's a mosaic of like ancient Jerusalem found around 6 CE. And it shows— I've never heard of this before, so I was actually trying to show you like the best way to describe describe it, but it's all in like ancient Greece. It was a mosaic underneath the floor in a different church that they found while they were about to make a new church. So they were doing like reconstruction and they found this map of ancient— it's pointing things out here, this isn't the best way to describe it, I'm sorry, but, um, they've mapped it all and found things that— I think it was found in like 1895, right around turn of the century. So it shows like where Jerusalem was, where all these things are in reference to each other and all these places that were in the Bible and whatnot. Wow. And I guess people didn't know about them. And that's when some of the stuff is, you know, getting validated.

Jordan's Madaba map. That's what it looks like. That's the actual image.

Yeah, it's really— I mean, it's, it's old school, you know, I guess tiles and little pieces of fragments of different things that is artistic, was covered covered up probably multiple times.

Mm, so wild. Well, then there's the weirdness of the Ark of the Covenant, and the dimensions match this object that's on Mount Ararat, which is exactly where supposedly it landed in the Bible. What? Yeah, really? Yeah, yeah, there's a bunch of people that firmly believe that this object on Mount Ararat— is that Moses's staff?

Oh, this one is. So this, it, it turns out— let's— I don't know if this is real. This is where I was— the rabbit hole was getting real weird here. It's in a, uh, a palace in Istanbul, I believe, where there's other relics. It's like the Palace of Relics or something like that. There's the sword of the Prophet David from 10 BC. Somehow they got, you know, David and Goliath. What? King David. Yeah. And there's a bunch of things from Muhammad there. There's like a piece of a tooth, a piece of a beard. What? I don't, and that's where, I don't— to say it's not real, I don't know. It just looks like a stick. But the biblical, like, uh, descriptions of it are that it turned into a serpent at one point. You know, this is what parted the Red Sea.

Hmm. Go to the Mount Ararat stuff because the Mount Ararat stuff is really weird. There, there's even like a whole touristy center that you can go there where they describe it as being the, the landing spot of Noah's Ark. But apparently What's weird is the analysis of the ground underneath it and that there's organic material that aligns with the dimensions of the boat. No way. Yeah, it's really weird. Well, just the object itself, like whatever the fuck that is.

Oh, this is in Eastern Turkey.

Yes, it's on Mount Ararat.

I heard about it. Yeah, yeah.

Just the dimensions itself. Fucking weird. Weird. Like, what is that thing that's up there? And so when they now analyze it, like, you see it has like what appears to be chambers and then also what appears to be the remnants of some sort of organic material, which would be wood that was used in construction of this thing. That's so— There was something recent about it though. See if you can find like news.

Go to news. This is what I thought I saw. I saw this. And I don't— I just seen this video where someone's inside and they're claiming— this has got to be a claim because I don't know how they got here and where this video came from.

He's going in. This is the same guy who made the UFO video.

And like, just showing them. I think when you get down here, they show like pieces of wood.

That's Noah's dick. Or it looks like wood. Yeah. He's showing pieces of wood. Or what looks—

I mean, it's Noah's dick. Ark scans.

We got— how much wood is left from 2,000 years ago or more?

I saw a piece on Instagram, I think, where it was not the entire 45-minute video.

There was some news of the analysis of that that I saw online. April 22nd. This is my bad. Researcher believes Noah's Ark found in Turkey after new underground scans. Yeah. Yeah, so researchers working in Turkey say fresh scan data on this from April uncovered what appears to be tunnels inside the long-debated landform, bolstering their case the site may be a man-made object they believe to be Noah's Ark. I do believe this is real decayed buried remnants of Noah's Ark, the famous ship, and we're doing our best to convince the skeptics and show the world this site.

The tricky thing is for carbon dating, you do need organic material. Oh yeah.

And not only that, it's like the tricky thing is like the whole story doesn't make sense. Take two of each animal and then what happens? Animals eat other animals. So how does that work out? You've got it. You know, in the Bible, they're supposedly waited. They waited until the animals gave birth to a bunch of different before they ate them. It's insane. Okay, what? What are you, a kid? It's just like, I mean, it literally sounds like, you know, like a child wrote a story. Very, very goofy.

But then you get into the fact that there are like 400 or so flood myths across disparate cultures, some of whom never had contact with one another.

Yes, definitely. And then you also get into the idea that it's not maybe the whole world that flooded. It's this immediate area. And that this idea of he took two of each animal, maybe he just took enough animals so he could sustain agriculture afterwards and these other animals did not go go extinct. And then maybe the story over time becomes he got fucking giraffes walk there from Africa. Like, where are you getting horses? You know, how are you getting eagles? Like, how are you getting everybody on this thing? It doesn't even make sense.

And real discoveries are often motivated by myth, like motivated by Homer and Herodotus stories about the Peloponnesian War. You had this guy, German businessman Heinrich von Schliemann spent all his money looking for Troy and he eventually found it. Yeah, which is wild. Wild. Another story would be Plato talking about this flood. He's talking about it in the Atlantis context. Obviously, it's a dialogue and it's, I think, the Timaeus and Critias dialogue. And this is told at a mythos festival, 600 BC, and they say 9,000 years ago, this great flood happened and then you line it up and that's meltwater pulse 1B, which is probably the flood that got us out of the ice age. So to discount myth entirely as like non-historical, I think, is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Right.

The timeline aligns with the great— with the theory of the Younger Dryas Impact Theory. Exactly. The Great Flood and the Younger Dryas Impact Theory align with the timeline that Plato— how the fuck could Plato have known when he's saying 9,000 years? Like, how, how is it so perfectly aligned?

I don't know. It seems a little convenient.

Yeah. I think if there was a Noah's Ark, it was probably— well, first of all, how does he know it's coming? How long does it take to make this boat? You know, that's where it gets really weird. Like, does this guy actually have a premonition? Is he actually, like, attuned to some sort of psychic energy? Or does God, or for lack of a better term, actually talk to this guy and say, hey dude, some shit is about to go down? And didn't it take him— I want to say the biblical account is it took him 100 years to make it?

Oh, I don't even know. I know that is back when they were like living for hundreds and hundreds of years.

Methuselah, 777 years old, was 182 when he had Noah.

Normal, normal stuff. Plus us.

David Sinclair, help us. Let's get back there.

Well, this is, this is the real thought, is if David Sinclair is correct, and I think he is, if they can figure out a way to somehow or another access whatever part of the human genome allows us to age or causes us to age and reverse that or change that. Why do we not know that if you got a civilization that could build the pyramids, how do we not know that these people were also capable of extending lifespan? 100%. Yeah.

And if knowledge gets lost and we're now figuring out Horvath clocks, DNA methylation clocks, biological age versus chronological age.

Yeah.

I'm sure you talked to Brigham about all sorts of like novel crazy things he's looking into with stem cells. Yes. You know, and the amazing things they do. Like, why was that not necessarily discovered before and just erased from the historical record?

Easily could have been. It could have been. If there is a cataclysmic disaster and we do have a hyper-advanced civilization that's capable of engineering feats that we still can't replicate today, which I think is the case, because there's a lot of people that say, "We could build the pyramids." today. Fuck you. Okay, fuck you. No one has. Go do it. Go do it. Shut your mouth. The biblical account— Noah and his family were in the ark for about a year, often calculated as roughly 370 days. Wow, they were in that boat for a fucking year. That's crazy, bro. That sucks. You think those guys are stuck in Iran have it bad? Uh, Genesis dates their entry to the 17th day of the second month of Noah's 600th year, and their exit on the 27th day of the 2nd month of his 601st year. It rained for 40 days and 40 nights. Um, how long did it take him to build the ark? Says 120 years. Does not it give a precise construction time? The commonly repeated 120 years is a traditional interpretation of Genesis 6:3 rather than explicit statement that construction itself lasted 120 years.

Mm-hmm. What's all, you know, you're getting into, when you're getting into ages like that, what's really weird is it's not just the Christian Bible or the Old Testament or that has these long extended lifespans. That's where you get really weird because both the ancient Egyptians, when, you know, the Zep-Ted And then when you get into the ancient Sumerian Kings List, like, when you go the further back, these motherfuckers were living thousands and thousands of years, reigning for thousands of years. And then after the flood, you start seeing ages aligned with modern human ages, which is really weird. Really weird. Yeah, it's like, okay, what? And so the way archaeologists dismiss it, they say, oh, that was just this myth. But you're— along with this myth, particularly with the Sumerians, you have actual historical kings that had actual historical reigns that are depicted in the same texts.

So, like, what's going on? 100%. And there, I think natural selection is a real theory. There are people who, like, deny it, and I think it is a locally extremely useful a useful, legit theory. But there's a great philosopher of science called Karl Popper, and he had this whole thing of— he called them materialist promissory notes, where you have issues in evolution, natural selection, you have punctuated equilibria, this sort of rapid speciation in the fossil record, things that are very hard to explain, and we just like to fill in the gaps. And we don't know, you know, there was actually a really interesting German German guy named— I think it was Richard Goldschmidt. He had this idea of— he was an evolutionary theorist and he had this idea of hopeful monsters. So you'd get these mating between interspecies. So a mule would be a good example or like a tiger and a lion, like a liger. Every once in a while, it would hit this ecological niche and actually make sense for the local ecology and then it would sort of persist. I think he's largely been debunked, but I spoke with this DARPA dude who was like, I can say this because we didn't end up pursuing it, but you know the movie The Shape of Water, the Guillermo del Toro?

He was like, at one point we were thinking about stuff like that, like interspecies. Yeah, yeah. And I don't know if it was like humans and other species, but it was like inspired by this guy, Richard Goldschmidt.

Well, you know, the Russians were considering making a hybrid between a human and a chimpanzee for war.

War. That's crazy. I know Putin's talked about killer dolphins.

No, this was, uh, God, was it World War II? It was World War II, right? So it was World War II. Um, who was it? Was it Stalin?

That's crazy.

Uh, well, do we remember?

I don't know if we would know officially. I just remember the guy was doing it on his own for sure.

Would have been Stalin.

See if you can find it. So they were— so the idea was like, look, Russia lost like 20 million men during World War II. And I think the idea is like, why wouldn't it be better if people didn't fucking die? Why don't we develop warriors? And so I think they were trying to make a human-chimpanzee hybrid specifically designed for war.

Now, like, I don't know if it was official because he got in— he got in trouble for seeking vol— like, not telling the female volunteers what was going on.

Oh Jesus, could you imagine? Stay put, honey, I'm just gonna stick something up there and wonderful things will happen. Jesus Christ. Notorious Soviet-era attempt, but no human-ape hybrids were ever created. But yes, it was a real attempt. Russian Soviet biologist Ilya Ivanov proposed using artificial insemination to test whether humans and great apes could produce offspring offspring in the mid-1920s. Okay, so it was, um, after World War I, uh, Soviet support. He traveled to French Guinea and inseminated several female chimpanzees with human sperm. None became pregnant. He later sought to reverse the experiment by inseminating women with ape sperm. Historical accounts indicate he considered doing so without consent in Guinea, but colonial authorities blocked the back in Russia. He sought female volunteers, but the available adult male ape died before the procedure could occur, so no such insemination proceeded.

Sounds like a great person.

Yeah, what a great guy, wonderful dude. But it's like kind of crazy that that was— I mean, imagine if it worked and then they just created like a million of them and just armed them.

Well, also, where are we headed with CRISPR and the ability to, you know, edit the human genome?

Right. Well, also, what the fuck is going to stop them from turning around and taking over Russia? Like, why would they listen to you? Right. Like, yeah, you're giving them guns. They're way more violent. They're super territorial. They're way stronger. And also, they're going to recognize that you made them to go die. And they're going to be really resentful. Handful of these fucking pink little fleshy fucking water balloons of meat and tissue that are so vulnerable compared to them.

It's like, yeah, it's like, you created me. It's like, it's like the Apes. It's Planet of the Apes. It's also the way people talk about AI. It's like very analogous.

Very much so. You know, very much so. Yeah. It's, we are always meddling. We're always meddling. Which makes me me think something more advanced would probably meddle with us. That's right. Just do it a little bit more subtly. And they would do it at the bound—

like, it makes sense that UFOs to me would show up around nuclear sites because those are the Archimedes lever of destruction on Earth. Those are the points of most leverage, the hinge points of civilizational collapse. Mm-hmm. It is not a coincidence that Mario and Michael were abducted at Ellsworth Air Force Base and saw this thing hover hovering above a live hydrogen bomb. That feels like it makes sense. Yeah. You know, and it like, if you were governing a system, you would look at those nodes, right? You look at the— actually, there's a great neuroscientist named Don Hoffman, and he says if you're like guarding, if you're a simulator and you're guarding the simulation, you look at the exit paths. So I think about two exit paths in our sort of simulation. One would be high-energy physics. So particle accelerators, high voltage experimentation, and nuclear— like real, like stuff where you're really pushing at the boundaries of spacetime. So I think that's why these things show up at National Labs, nuclear sites, a lot of like really hardcore kind of experimentation. And then consciousness— I think that would be the other exit path. And so that's why I think these things show up when we're sort of communing with this higher thing, right?

And it also makes sense why they show up when sleeping, right? Like, if you're having these encounters, like, all these abduction experiences, the great many of them happen at night, right? Yeah.

And it's an open question as to why is it evolutionarily adaptive for us to sleep, right? It doesn't really make sense. It's terrible. It's terrible. And we sleep deeper than, like, most animals. And so we can be walked up on by predators. And there's so many nocturnal predators.

Predators. Absolutely.

So why—

stupid idea.

Why wouldn't that get selected out? Maybe something important happens during sleep. Like, who knows? Yeah. But like, it seems like, yeah, we don't understand any of that stuff. The dream— dreaming, sleeping. And it's probably adaptive in some way we don't understand. Yeah.

And like, what is happening when we're sleeping? I told you about my crazy dream, the one crazy dream that I had that still to this day kind of— it's very foggy now because it's months and months after the fact. But that the day of that dream, I was shook. I was really shook.

It almost feels like, if I were to analyze that dream, it's like they were giving meat to these crocodiles in the water or something. So, it was like our limbic sort of reptilian, because in every man, you have your sort of reptile self, and then you have your like more aspirational self or something. And maybe they were sort of sort of like holding that at bay. And they were, you said to me, you were like, these beings, these like future human alien looking beings were telling you like, this is a brittle experiment. Like this whole thing you've got set up, this could end tomorrow. Like we're here sort of protecting you.

There was a very flimsy barrier between the crocodiles and whatever was in the water. And I was like, that's it? That's the only thing that's stopping? This is like a fucking fucking like a traffic cone and some tape or something like that, like some plastic bars. It was like— not— I don't remember specifically, but it was like— I remember being very uncomfortable with how little protection there was to stop those things from coming out of the water. So fascinating. But also the weirdness of them, like their bodies. They were like very slender and kind of tall, but like no muscle at all, like no strength at all, and larger heads, very odd looking, almost Asian looking, very weird. And they were playing with me a little bit, like spooking me. Haha. It was very strange, but it was so vivid. That's the weird part.

That's what's so trippy to me, where I'm like, maybe it was an experience. It's hard to say. It's impossible to declaratively say it wasn't, right?

It's hard to know what a dream is in the first place. Yeah. Like, what is going on when you have vivid dreams in the first place?

Totally. Yeah. What is that?

It seems like you're working out problems. Like a lot of times people are working out issues and that's why they say sleep on it. I think there's something to that old wives', you know, the old wisdom of sleep on it. It's almost like you're—

because it does feel like sometimes like issues that you have come up in sleep, but you're almost like metabolizing them or you're like, you're like working them out by experiencing them, but in like a padded walls sort of way in the dream where like you don't want to work that out in 3D reality. And so it's sort of adaptive in that sense or something.

Maybe. I don't know.

Who knows? Yeah.

But it's weird that I've had so many dreams that have been, you know, even crazy dreams like, wow, that was nuts. But nothing like kept me from going back to sleep. Yeah.

That's what's so trippy about it is like you went and worked out right after.

I had— I could not sleep. I laid in bed for like an hour afterwards trying to go back to sleep. I'm like, I am not going back to sleep. Like, whatever the fuck that was, was way too real, like way more real than any dream I'd had before.

If I was an alien or a future human, I would definitely visit you.

Whatever it is, it— if— I mean, whether or not it's my imagination just hit a burst of like serotonin and dopamine and neurochemicals and DMT or whatever it was that created this very vivid thing, it's either that, my super hyperactive imagination, or an encounter encounter. It's hard to know what it was, but what it was was very different than any other dream that I've ever had before. Yeah, well, I—

that's— I think that's a beautiful— like, that's all you can say about it. Yeah, but that's being honest.

Yeah. And that's— but it also is the problem with someone having a legitimate experience. Like, how much do they elaborate? How much do they expand? How much do they try to justify their experience rather than saying, I don't know what the fuck that was.

Yeah, totally. I think, I think in many cases the honest thing is, I don't know. I don't know what the beings were. I don't know where they were from. And it's so interesting that we snap to grid all of these experiences into this sort of alien motif. And it's why the Pentagon now uses non-human intelligence, which sounds kind of ridiculous because it could be AI or an animal or something.

But I wonder why they changed that.

I think they changed it because they don't know definitively that it's extraterrestrial. Extraterrestrial. And the office that I think in bad faith likes to debunk this stuff, the All Domain Anomalies Resolution Office, that just likes to pour— it's the modern Blue Book, basically. They often say we have no evidence of extraterrestrial visitation because they hinge it on that conclusion. That is a conclusion. Right. There's a lot of anomalous data. There's stuff showing up at our nuclear sites everywhere.

Donald Trump reportedly told inner circle aliens are living in Earth's I've heard he said that too.

That also, he alluded to that. Remember the Jersey drone flap in November of 2024? He kind of alluded to that. He goes, we know they're coming from a garage. It's a weird place.

It's a garage. We have no idea what they are, but they're in the ocean.

This is according to Jack Osborne, who said, I think to Andy Stumpf. And he said that he has got a friend that talks to Trump frequently.

So tells him stuff. I know Jack Soros actually. Actually. And, uh, so yeah, yeah. And I don't think he's lying.

Well, this is also what multiple people have said, that there's something in the ocean, you know. And this is—

yeah, no, I, I just had on the, um, Navy's chief oceanographer who we just talked about. He was head of NOAA. Yeah, I saw that. Yeah. And, um, you know, he talks about tons and tons of sightings, tons of Navy sightings. I mean, the, the 3 sightings that were popularized, the videos that were popularized in 2017 New York Times article, which is— whether you like that article or not, they got some things wrong— very responsible for a lot of the modern kind of disclosure movement. Very responsible for people all of a sudden taking it seriously. 100%. Yeah, it slapped that credibility onto the whole issue. Those were Navy cases. Those were all Navy cases. The Nimitz sighting, GOFAST, and Gimbal were all Navy. And so yeah, there's a long history. I mean, the Bluegill Triple Prime thing I mentioned with Harold Omgren was Navy as well. You know, you have Tim Burchett saying there are 5 or 6 hot spots, uh, you know, on our— on ocean floors. And then you have Bob Lazar saying, you know, actually that was taken out of context. You know, people are saying the craft he worked on, the sports model, was found in an archaeological dig.

It was actually found on the sea floor. Yeah. And I think the Office of Naval Intelligence knows a lot about this whole time. In fact, Jay Stratton—

where, where was the information that it was found on the sea floor?

That's what he says. And I think he might have said Barry his like— We said one of them came from an archaeological dig.

Yes. But it wasn't the sport model?

I think— I thought it was— oh, I don't know if it was this— maybe it wasn't this one. It wasn't the sport model.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He said one of them, I was told, actually came from an archaeological dig and it's really old.

It might have not been the sport model, but he said it was the sea floor.

The labyrinth. What is it? Herodotus described. There's a Tiktaal. There's a 40-meter-long labyrinth. Long, tic-tac-shaped metallic object that's inside of some sort of an atrium that sits underground. Just a 40-meter-long piece of metal that's thousands and thousands of years old. Like, what are you talking about? It's so crazy. How the fuck do they have 40 meters of metal back then? Like, what is that?

Oh, it's so crazy.

40 meters is nuts. It's so nuts. 40 meters is almost half a football field. It's huge. It's fucking massive piece of metal. Vertical? I do not know. Okay, I do not know, but it's, uh, it's shaped like, you know, like a craft.

The other crazy thing—

imagine there's a fucking UFO under Egypt and you just gotta dig and go get it.

It'd be so wild. Well, the crazy thing, uh, I know you've had— you're referring to a lot of Ben Van Kirkwyk's amazing work. He's been on your show a bunch. He, I think, went to Dendera, and the hieroglyphics there, like, translate to Stargate. Yes, that's crazy. Like, what? And then I think Stargate takes place at the pyramid. The pyramid is literally a portal. And then if you combine that with the Christopher Dunn stuff or the beyondy stuff where either it's a generator of electricity or there's this other guy, amazing guy, Jeffrey Drum, who talks about it as a chemical manufacturing plant. Yeah, I've seen him. Something was being done there and maybe it had to do with some transcendent, and then it obviously somewhat maps to Orion's Belt as well. So I don't know, maybe, and then Orion's Belt is the pathway that souls took in ancient times. Oh yeah, it's—

I never get tired of the subject. It's so fun. As long as there's new information that comes out, they got me hooked forever. It's like a stupid soap opera that I'll watch till I die.

Yeah, no, I feel the same. It's, it's so like— and it's always like the cast of— there's so much drama too, and disclosure and stuff, and it's just— I don't know, it's— I, I do hope— I do think in our lifetime we're gonna make a lot of progress progress on it.

This is Herodotus's— I hope so. Yeah, Herodotus's description: it had 12 roofed courts— God, I can't talk— arranged in 2 rows, 6 facing north and 6 south, all enclosed by one outer wall. It contained 3,000 chambers, 1,500 above ground and 1,500 underground. Herodotus says he toured the upper chambers himself, but Egyptian custodians refused to show the lower ones. They reportedly held the tombs of the original royal builders and of sacred crocodiles. What? What?

That's so nuts, bro.

That brings back to my stupid dream. I, I was literally thinking that. Yeah. He emphasizes its bewildering internal circulation. Visitors pass from courts to chambers, chambers to colonnades, and then to further rooms that courts. Its roof was stone, its walls bore carved figures, and each court was ringed by precisely fitted white stone columns.

And Pliny the Elder also had an account of this thing. Like, this was— well, it's—

I mean, also, like, with ground-penetrating radar, they know it exists.

They know it exists.

These chambers actually do exist. And that's the weird thing about whatever that metallic object is. They, they can and they don't know what metal it is either. It doesn't resonate like aluminum or iron. They don't know what the fuck it is.

That's so wild. You know, Crocodile—

Labrydith surpasses even the pyramids. Wow. He says, I saw this myself. I found it greater than words can say. That is so wild.

That is so crazy.

Imagine saying something's greater than the pyramids and it's under the ground.

And you are the preeminent Greek historian. Like you're writing about all the craziest shit.

And you're writing about it from a firsthand firsthand perspective. It's not like he heard a story. Yeah, you're— you've seen it. Yeah, this isn't like Homer writing.

I was watching the old— older Lex Friedman podcast, and this linguist guy— I haven't heard this discussed yet, especially with all the times we talked about Göbekli Tepe. Have you ever seen this thing? What is that? Um, the way he describes it is it's like proving that they had language then, because this is not cuneiform. Form. Mm-hmm. And the way he— I mean, they get— it takes 30 minutes probably before they get to this, and because he's breaking down what language is and how we got to it, and he gives a very crazy explanation of language I had not heard, which it's, it's like writing down sound in the same way that like a, like a record is recording sound. You're writing down sounds, and it's like it took a while for everybody to agree upon what all those sounds were, so that you're all reading the same thing.

And so Irving Finkel, scholar of ancient languages and longtime curator at the British Museum, renowned for his expertise in Mesopotamian history and cuneiform writing, believes this artifact from Göbekli Tepe is evidence of the earliest form of writing dating back to around 11,600 years ago.

So you're saying like the way that the other stuff is reliefs, that this was like a stamped piece of clay that would have been, you know, some record of some sort saying something was done, and this is like a verification of of that. And this could have been some guy's last name. There's further breakdowns I've seen, like maybe this snake is like the S sound, and this could be some guy's name. Who knows what it really could mean. But this is going to, you know, 12,000 years ago when they thought we only were doing this for 3,000 or whatever.

Trippy. Yeah, it's very weird. It's all very weird. The, the, just the history that we know of with the human race. I mean, just when you get to these old structures that we know people made. When did they make them and why? Like, why? What is Göbekli Tepe? What the fuck is that?

Like, do you think we see a shift in our understanding of humanity and our place in the cosmos in our lifetime?

Yeah, one funeral at a time.

Mm, yes, that's how science progresses.

Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah, I think that's pretty accurate. One gatekeeper at a time. Yeah, these old cocksucker workers, they need to get out of the way. I mean, I just think there's way too many of these people that have a vested interest in protecting a narrative that they've been teaching, they've been writing books about, they've been saying they're the experts when you literally can't be. There's just not enough data.

What every period in history, like, things get wholly overturned. So if you can't point to one thing that's kind of heretical today that you agree with, then you're definitely on the wrong side. Of history. We always say we're at the end of history scientifically, historically, and then it always progresses. And usually there's a— that's when people are most saying we're at the end of history, you see a paradigm shift and everything just completely collapses and changes. This is like the structure of scientific revolutions is written by a guy named Thomas Kuhn, who's actually— he was friends with John Mack, and he encouraged him to investigate the alien abduction stuff at Harvard. And he would say that there's a law of declining marginal returns in any scientific paradigm where you're just rounding out the final margins on a theory and you're so sure of it, like electromagnetism in the late 19th century, and then boom, you get total collapse because Max Planck figures out quanta. You get the quantum revolution. And who are you to say so smugly that that's not going to happen now? Of course it will. Of course it will.

Yeah, it's just what always has happened. Yes. And much like the UFO thing with— when it comes to discussions about ancient history and the true history of the human race and what we really don't know, the people that are the most smug and are the most sure of themselves are most certainly the most wrong.

Yeah, exactly. 100%.

Yeah, because I think the The UFO thing is weird, and the ancient history thing is weird. Yeah. There's too many unanswered questions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the answers that they have are really shitty. There's too many really shitty answers.

This is kind of a weird analogy, but in, like, stock picking, which is, you know, it's easy to get feedback on stock picking, like, whether you're right or you're wrong, confidence can rise exponentially. Initially, and accuracy rises very linearly and often plateaus. And so that's often— I think it's the case in like, you know, in learning anything where like you get more and more and more confident, you're so sure of yourself. And but your accuracy is only going like mildly up.

And it goes back to what we were talking about with like remote viewing and staying in flow state. Yes. It's like you got to get out of your own way with everything.

Totally. And sometimes, you know, a great example example is Marconi, who is responsible for inventing the radio by most accounts, him and Tesla, right? He tried to send a signal across the Atlantic, and he thought that electromagnetic waves curved. And so he was like, "You know, I'm going to send the signal. It's going to work." He was entirely wrong about electromagnetic waves curving. It just bounced off the ionosphere, and then it landed across the Atlantic, and the signal was received. And so he was right because he was is wrong. And how many, you know, cases are like that where, you know, did Graham Hancock find the Ark of the Covenant? No, he headed in this general westerly direction of knowing that we have kind of amnesia as a civilization. And he found something extremely special, you know, helped popularize the Göbekli Tepe narrative and this whole Younger Dryas period, you know, impact theory hypothesis. So you have, you know, same thing with James Bruce with the the covenant. You can shoot for the stars and land on the moon, you know, and that's okay. But if you're just like this nitpicker, like annoying, smug, you know, academic who's like arguing for the priestly citadel to be upheld, like what is your contribution to humanity?

Right. What are you doing?

Yeah. And there's a lot of those.

There's so many. Yeah. But I think even some of those people, and I'm not saying that all of the attributes I just mentioned apply apply to Neil deGrasse Tyson. But, but that's some of those— some of those people are now updating on UFOs. And it's wild because, like, you have a documentary, you know, The Age of Disclosure, where all these high-ranking intel people are saying UFOs are real repeatedly in front of a chalkboard, saying they are real, take my word for it. And it's bludgeoning you basically to a point where you're like, okay, they're probably not, like, lying to me, you know. And so— and then you end up with Neil deGrasse Tyson being like, "Look, okay, this is an overwhelming amount of accounts. Now, you know, I do think there's probably something here and we should look into it." And it's like, dude, you weren't doing science before. Is all it took a documentary? That doesn't make any sense.

No, it's criticism. Yeah. He's responding to overwhelming criticism of his intellectual capacity for reason. That's right. Yeah. Because I think, like, when he was on the podcast with me, I got very upset with him when he was like, "Why would they be interested us. And I told him, I go, that one drives me crazy. And I tried to explain why it drives me crazy. He kept interjecting, and I'm like, okay, yeah, just, just stop. Just stop with that idea that we're not interesting. We're territorial apes with nuclear weapons who fucking send FaceTime videos to people on the other side of the planet. That's real weird.

We're apes with nukes. Yeah, we're real weird.

We're real weird. And if I was something that was in an advanced civilization from somewhere else, hopefully that a civilization that has gotten past the concept of war and stealing resources and all that and does have some sort of hive mind, some sort of ability to communicate telepathically. I would be absolutely fascinated by this thing that seems to be in this transitionary sort of an adolescent stage of evolution and development. It's like not quite a primal animal anymore. Anymore, but also not evolve past primal animal behavior. 100%.

And all the Chinese science fiction novel, The Three-Body Problem, you might not show yourself overtly in the dark forest teeming with life. It's actually dangerous to show yourself. So you subtly show up. You show up at these nodes, hinge points of possible cataclysm at nuclear. You show up to a specific person who might be a node of disclosure. Disclosure, but you'd let it sort of seep in, you'd condition the population. You wouldn't show up all at once.

And we are, like, objectively being conditioned to accept this. If the fucking president is saying they live in the ocean, and Tim Burchett is saying there's 5 hotspots in the oceans as well, and then we see it in the New York Times in 2017, well, this is how disclosure takes place. 100%. Nice and slow. Nice and slow to the point where it just becomes accepted. Totally.

Yeah. And there's no like clear ontological shock moment.

It's not doo doo doo doo doo, the fucking Devil's Tower UFO lands. It's not that. No, no.

It's nice and slow. It's what's happening now. Yes. It's happening. And that's why, 'cause there are people that get really frustrated and I understand it because there's so much sclerotic bureaucracy on the Hill. And you know, these whistleblowers need way more protections. I think we need targeted immunity for certain people people who can say a lot more, who are good faith actors coming out. There are probably a lot of people who did really bad shit that we don't want immunity for, you know? But like, ultimately, you know, I have these conversations and it's like, it's so frustrating, it's taking so long, but it is moving. Like if you look at 10 years ago vis-à-vis today, 2016, before that 2017 article to today, it's wild.

Totally different landscape.

Totally different landscape.

Yeah, yeah. If you talked about it back then, you were a buffoon, and now you're on the right side of history. There you go.

So you, Joe, are the premier scientist because you were into all this stuff way back then.

That guy was into it first. Art Bell, legend. The OG inspiration. Jesse, you're the fucking man. I appreciate you very much. It's always great to talk to you. Your show is amazing. American Alchemy, it's available on YouTube, and it's incredible. It's the best. Love you, Joe. Thank you. I love you too. Thank you for being here. All right, bye everybody.