Transcript of How to Hear & Trust Your Knowing + Feel Certainty in an Uncertain World! With Touré Roberts New

Tori Roberts, I'm crying on my own show. No, no, no. This, this is like why— this is literally why I do this show. Moments I pray for like this. They're like—

Yeah, yeah, you, you, you're, you're, you're a facilitator. You're a facilitator of miraculous and wonderful and powerful and life-changing things.

You share that knowing is not a theory, but it's a divine intelligence that we're all born with.

You hear people talking about your sixth sense. I believe that knowing is actually our first sense. Before we had eyes to see, before we had ears to hear, before any of that, we were created to know. We were created to be aware. I can go through something. I can weather something. If I know that there is a God with all power who cares about me.

The best moments in my life have happened the closer I am to that knowing. And probably the worst moments in my life have happened the furthest away from that I am.

Totally.

Are you good at hearing your own knowing, your intuition, and trusting it?

Are you able to block out the noise of the world and tune into that knowing inside of you that feels true?

True and tells you what is? Or have the thoughts in your head, the traumas of your past, and the noisy world happening all around us made it so hard to even get still or to even hear your own knowing at all?

If you've ever felt that quiet nudge inside of you, that whisper that says there's more, there's deeper, there's alignment that you haven't stepped into yet, this conversation is for you, because today's guest is someone who doesn't just talk about purpose, he lives it. You may know him as a pastor, an entrepreneur, a visionary leader, founder of ONE Church, and the co-senior pastor of the Potter's House Dallas, and host of the acclaimed podcast, The Called. You may know him as the husband of the incredible Sarah Jakes Roberts. You may know him from stages, sermons, or moments that have gone viral across the the world. But today you're gonna meet the man behind the platform. Over the past two decades, Torrey Roberts has helped millions of people navigate faith, identity, leadership, calling, and what it truly means to live in alignment. His brand new book, Knowing: The Journey to Certainty in an Uncertain World, is a powerful reminder that so many of us are searching outside of ourselves for answers that that already live within us. He writes about discernment, about healing what distorts your clarity, about remembering who you were before the world told you who to be.

And he has flown from Dallas all the way here to be here in person today with you and me right here in the studios.

I am so excited for this conversation.

And whether today you're listening for yourself or because someone you love shared this episode with you, I wanna welcome you to the Jamie Kern Lima Show podcast family. Thank you so much for being here. If you could take 2 seconds and hit the subscribe or follow button on the app you're listening to it on or watching us on, it means so much to me. Also, you can get even more inspiration for free right into your inbox. You could just join our newsletter community at jamiekernlima.com. And you know, this incredible podcast episode today, it's not just for you and me.

Please share this.

With every single person you know who may need some inspiration or a boost in their own self-belief or knowing, because what you're about to hear can truly impact mine, yours, and their lives too.

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Torrey Roberts, welcome to the Jami Kern Lima Show.

Thank you so much, Jami. It's such a blessing to be here. We love you. You are a star. And I'm just excited about what we get to talk about today.

Well, I am excited you are here. Any time I've had the gift of just talking with you, whether it's backstage at an event or, you know, just off the cuff or anything, I always just leave feeling filled with hope. Filled with inspiration, filled with what feels like truth. And I'm just, I'm grateful. I'm grateful that you're here. I'm so excited for everyone to have this conversation with you. And if they haven't already, to experience the brilliance that is you.

Wow.

And the anointing that is you. So thank you, thank you for being here. I'm very excited for your new book and had the gift of reading it ahead of time. Cover to cover. And first of all, the title, "Knowing," right? "The Journey to Certainty in an Uncertain World." I feel like, who does not need that right now? Like, all of us need that right now. And I think that this book is a gift. And I left the book going, "I really needed this book right now." And this— so many of these reminders, but also these new revelations and ways of thinking about AI that I hadn't thought about it before, ways of thinking about certainty in a world that feels so uncertain all around us. And I think, you know, right now, for so many of us, if we're not careful, we can just feel like there's no hope left. There's no hope left. And I think that your leadership right now, both with what you are doing, you know, outside of this book every day, but also through this book, I think is so timely and so needed. So, I just wanna start things off by saying, thank you for that.

And can you just share with everyone what inspired you what inspired you to write Knowing?

Yeah, thank you. I, um, you know, I don't— and my wife and I both have made this pact that we won't write a book that we don't feel passionate about because of the impact that it will have on the timing that the book comes out. I mean, it's— and we're serious about it, even with, you know, you know how it goes with multiple books. But this one for me was a work of love and stewardship because I've been blessed with some insights that help me to navigate seasons that would be overwhelming for most. But I'm also very aware of what people are facing. So much uncertainty everywhere, from economic uncertainties to, you know, political uncertainties, not just in America, but all over the world. And that can be very scary. If you don't have something that is grounding with all the information that we are inundated with, all of the possibilities, not always positive, you can go in a rabbit hole and end up really stagnant in a time where there is opportunity. On the backdrop of chaos, there is still opportunity. And so, for me, it was about love. I love people. I genuinely love people.

And I can't, with the influence that I have, sit back and know that people are hurting because they're afraid, because they're, you know, we're in such a time of transition. Should I leave this job? Should I start my business? Should I leave the country? Should I, you know, this is—

Will I have a job in a few years? Will I have a job?

Yes, yes. It's really traumatizing. So, you know, we're here and we're smiling, but I'm also feeling what people are feeling. And so, so I have, you know, the stewardship part of it is I've received, you know, an insight and multiple insights where even though I'm in the same situations, in many cases, my mentality and my perspective and my belief and my hope is not shakable. It's not shaky. And I wanted to give that to everyone that I could. And that's why I wrote it. And I'm excited about what's in it.

Okay.

Well, can you— you know, you share that— you share that knowing is not a theory, but it's a divine intelligence that we're all born with. So, can you tell us about what knowing is and how we all have it?

Certainly. So, you know, you hear people talking about your sixth sense, you know, and, and so that is after your five senses. And now that there's some that say there are 8 or 9 senses, but the sixth is typically when you start getting into what some call intuition or your spiritual senses. And it's almost like a, a later sense. But, but I believe that knowing is actually our first sense before we had eyes to see, before we had ears to hear, before any of that, we were created to know, we were created to be aware. And from a spiritual perspective, we were created in the image and in the likeness of God. And God is all-knowing. And so, and when you think about a child, like even, you may, I'm sure you read it, so you know I had my 9-year-old daughter, she was 9 at the time, write the foreword to the book. And first of all, no one thought that that was a good idea with the exception of me and my close friends. But some of the, the people that I'm in business with as it relates to the book were against it.

You know, you know, why did you have a 9-year-old write a book about knowing? You know, everyone— you've got the— you've got psychologists at your fingertips, you've got all of these, you know, scientists, you've got all these people that you could have had to write before. Why did you get to— because, and I did that because at 9 years old and even earlier, you're never more closer to the awareness that is knowing. I don't think that we were created to stumble around and figure out life. I truly believe that we were created with an essence of awareness that gets lost over time. Because of what we experience. We were created to know. And really what I'm talking about in the book is getting back to that first sense and getting better at getting back to it from age to age and stage to stage.

And when you say knowing, so for the person listening right now, what's the difference, if any, between knowing and intuition.

Oh, yeah.

And God whispering stuff to you versus just like instinct.

Love it.

Yeah.

So, so knowing is based on what is already known. So, uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give a little scripture.

Yeah.

That one is just really profound. It's Jeremiah chapter 1, and it says— and this is God speaking— that Jeremiah, who's young, and he says, "Before I formed you in your mother's womb," he says, "I knew you." He's speaking in past tense. So, he's speaking to Jeremiah in time about a version of him that transcends time, has already been completed. So, essentially what he's saying is, "Jeremiah, you are known and the whole of your life is already known." So, where knowing differs from an intuition per se is knowing is a connection to what is already known about you. And so you can have, you know, they say, um, who was that? Was it— I think it was— what singer was that? That song Déjà Vu. Um, I think it might have been Tina Turner. I can't remember who it was. But anyway, um, Déjà Vu. We've all had those Déjà Vu experiences.

Yes.

And there's some scientific explanations for it, or some scientific attempts to explain it. But it's like showing up somewhere, but you're like, man, I've been here before, I've experienced it before, but you really haven't in time and space. And I believe that sometimes what you're doing is you're actually tapping into something that was known and you are experiencing in time what was known beyond. So knowing is the ability to peek into what is already known, and you get better at it. You get better at sensing that knowing, so much so that you can start leaning into it and participating in what's known. And one of the immediate gifts of that whole experience is peace, because it's already worked out. I'm not a I'm not a random experiment. I am the byproduct of a brilliant thought in the mind of the one who created me. And as a result of that, as I grow closer in my relationship with the knower, the ultimate knower, I begin to sense my way into alignment, and things get so much better as a result.

And knowing we're born with free will, and then we can mess a whole lot of things up. And we can also have a whole lot of self-doubt and think a whole lot of thoughts that are not even true about who we are and just live miserable, which most of us have done, being imperfect humans that we all are. And then, when we talk about what's known and figuring out how to like tap into that knowing, would you say that in doing that, we get closer to the truth about even like what's true about our own worth and about who we are? And all that. Can you talk to that? Because so many people write into me and they're like, "How do I overcome my self-doubt or my limiting beliefs?" Or, "I feel like I'm too young," or, "I'm too old," or, "I missed the chance," or, "I've made too many past mistakes," or, "I don't have what it takes," or, "I'm just anxious all the time." All those things. Would any of those be in the hemisphere of if we were truly tuned into our knowing, what is known and true about us from our Creator.

For sure. And it makes me— this is really why I wrote the book. It makes me sad to hear that because I know it's true. And I have walked through seasons of my life where I had questions like that as well. The reason why we question ourselves, our self-worth, or our doubt, or what have you, is because we have gotten detached from the awareness of knowing. The fact that we are alive and have the ability right now in this very moment to put our hand in front of our face, blow on it as evidence of life and breath means that there's still something yet unfolding.

Mm-hmm.

If your life had no meaning or significance or had nothing to look forward to, then you wouldn't have that. It would be over. But the reality of it is the, the fact that you literally have breath, breath in your body, means that there is more. And, uh, and what happens oftentimes is we are tempted to give up before we grow up, and we're tempted to give up before we come into and awareness. We're working our way back to knowing. We started knowing and we had peace and contentment. And we were—

When we were born.

When we were born. You know, we're hard-pressed to find an unhappy baby. We're hard-pressed to find a child that isn't happy or a child that doesn't have belief that if they cry, they're going to get fed, they're going to get picked up, you know. But over time, life begins to strip us away of that belief. We, we go through things, we experience things, and the next thing you know, we're questioning whether or not we're safe. And so the journey to knowing is getting back to the reality that what we're trying to figure out has actually already been worked out. It's already been worked out. We're trying to figure it out. And so once you go on a journey where you see the consistency of God sustaining you. And in many cases, not just sustaining you, but causing you to trend up, right? It's kind of like the stock market. You don't necessarily always, it doesn't always seem like it's going up, you know, because you've got all of these highs and these lows. But if you look at it over any 25-year period, It's doing this. And that's what I would say to someone, even someone listening right now.

Um, you've had a turbulent, um, existence, maybe a turbulent 5 years, 10 years, 20 years. And, and perhaps even naturally, economically, relationally, you only see dips, but God has a way of forming you. And even though maybe the economics aren't where you want them to be, or maybe the relationship, or maybe the self-love that you want to have in contrast to beating yourself up and doubting yourself, sometimes it is like a— I don't know if this is the best analogy, but like a cake being made. And if you just take flour and you just eat flour, That's disgusting. You know, if you take sugar, and after a while, that's disgusting too. But God is called the Potter. And he has a way of taking us as clay, and taking us through this dizzying process, which seems like it's not making sense, and our head is spinning, and we don't know which way to go. But in the process of time, and remember, we're still in the game because we've got We've got that breath, we're still in the game. In the process of time, it all makes sense. And then you will know on a whole nother level because you've seen his handiwork.

Mm. As you share that, you know, I just wanna zoom out for a minute because I'm thinking about the person at home who maybe is thinking about their own life right now and going, okay, to get closer to knowing, to get closer to the truth, to get closer to what is, to what is. Does this require almost trust?

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And now, more of this incredible conversation together.

To get closer to knowing, to get closer to the truth, to get closer to what is, to what is, does this require almost trust? Does it require trust that God's hand's at work in your life, even when it doesn't make sense? Like the way you just described him making the cake, you're like, "Wait a minute, the flour "on its own, that doesn't taste so good right now." But he's literally the potter making the cake. And I'm thinking about what you're just saying in my own life on how even stuff that makes no sense to me that happened, setbacks, like crazy stuff in my family, random betrayals, whatever may— it's like, "Oh, wait a minute. He's always brought me through it." Like, I've always come through it. "Like, I've always survived it. I've always come out of it stronger or more resilient or more." And I look at, like, I can see in my own life, even some of the crazy detours I almost took, some of the roads I almost went down, so many of the things, I was like, "Oh, for me, it's part of how I know he exists because there had to be so much grace on my life for me to even end up where I'm at right now and okay." Like, there had to be so much grace.

So much. And I think, as a human, it's hard for me sometimes to still think like, "Oh, no, no, but I'll pray, but still, it's all on me. I've gotta figure out, I've gotta carry it. Oh, the world feels like a disaster. Oh, the political unrest everywhere. Oh, this, oh, that." But it's like, "Oh, wait a minute, that's all, that's all out here." And what you're saying is, the closer you get to knowing and Would you say it's to trusting that your life is divinely ordered or trusting that God already has a plan for your life? Is that a way to get closer to more tuned into that knowing to then find peace and know, okay, He does always bring me through it, it is all gonna work out?

Absolutely. And to know that God cares. You know, if— I can go through something, I can weather something if I know that there is a God with all power who cares about me. So if there's a God who has all power, the ability to do anything, who cares about me and is for me, and yet for some reason He chooses not to use that power in the way that I want him to use that power, then it must mean that if he used the power in the way that I want him to use the power, then somehow that would set me back in comparison to what he really desires for me. I'm thinking about this one— this one passage in Scripture, and it was around this guy named Lazarus who died. He literally died. And his sisters were very upset. And they were obviously grieving. And Jesus comes and it says that Jesus wept. And people try to say, well, you know, he wept over Lazarus, you know, but Lazarus would subsequently be raised from the dead. So he wasn't weeping over Lazarus. What was he weeping over? He was weeping over the grief of the daughter, or the sisters rather.

He was weeping over the grief of Lazarus' sisters, because they did not quite understand what the outcome would ultimately be. And yet, there was a bigger thing at play, so he couldn't use his power to fix it for them in that moment. Because ultimately, in that context, you know, the greater miracle and the greater testimony would be that God has the power to raise the dead. So, I think first it's about knowing that God really cares. He— there is a sovereign God who truly cares about you, and he would not let you face anything regardless— and I'm not trying to be insensitive— but regardless of how painful it is, had he not already pre-qualified you. To handle it. So, in other words, this God who knows— remember, "I'm known. Before I formed you, I knew you." I actually know what you can handle. I have a better pulse on what you can handle, believe it or not, than you do. And I would not put it on you unless I was going to do more than sustain you, going to do more than make you whole again, but I will use that. I'm a multiplier.

I will use that to multiply you. And I've seen this in my own life. I've seen this in, you know, just about all the biblical figures. You know, they're heroes, but they're heroes who were human and had to go through this process. And so, I think it begins with knowing that there's a God who cares. And over time, it's going to make more sense. But again, you have to resist the temptation to give up before your life grows up.

Mm. For the person listening at home who's like, "I think I might believe in God, but I'm not sure." And also, "If there was a God, why do all these horrible things happen?" And "If there was God, why did this X, Y, or Z happen to me?" What you just took us through explains that. And can you say that— can you share what you just shared in the context for someone who's thinking that right now, in— who's like, "Okay, Torrey, but what— but why would this bad thing happen to me? That makes no sense. If God was real, why would this happen to me?" Why would that be happening in that— area of the country or the world. "Why would God let this happen?" What do you say to that? And then tie that into why— this is so— you guys, I live my— like, I love this book so much because I really feel like the best moments in my life have happened the closer I am to that knowing. And probably the worst moments in my life have happened the furthest away from that I am. So, like, I'm so— I'm so in this right now.

And I'm trying to figure out also, just for the person listening who's just like, "Okay, Jamie Torrey, but why the— if God really was real, why that? Why'd this thing happen to me? Why'd that happen in that country?" What do you say to that, to that person that just isn't sure? And then in words, in their words, why knowing? Is gonna change your whole life?

Oh yeah. Well, first of all, that is a very, very legitimate feeling.

Yeah.

Question. I've felt that. I've questioned that. That is legitimate. And then it's also not offensive at all to God. Yeah. You know, because of, you know, my experience and even the way that I've seen him, you know, as I study his interact— in connection with people that I know, and even people in the Scripture, it's almost like he appreciates the authenticity of the questioning. If you just sign up right away, and there's no qualifying, because I believe that God— I'm going to humanize him just for a second. I think God has so much confidence in our ability to perceive him ultimately, that he is not even in a hurry to force you to accept him. It's almost like a relationship. You know, I don't want to force someone to love me. I believe that I am lovable. And if you just get in my presence, and if you just get to know me, you will love me, you know. And so, and God is omnipresent. He's everywhere. And there will be a moment where there is an opportunity for God to show his trustworthiness. And so, I just say that I wanted to normalize the questioning, the— everyone did.

No one immediately, you know, "Oh my God," you know, that's, you know, well, maybe back in the beginning, because there was knowing, there was uninterrupted knowing, but now, Knowing is a journey. So I would say that as it relates to, um, you know, bad things happening, and they happen all the time, and things that grieve me, uh, deeply, um, if you are looking at— it's almost like a movie, and movies are set up in scenes. And if you come in on a 2-hour movie that has, you know, 3 scenes, and you just, you just watch this this one scene and this scene, somebody just loses their life or some terrible thing happens, you will make a decision about life, about God, about every— about the movie, but you haven't seen the whole movie. And we're talking about at best our lifespan. And I hope I get to be 100 and 105, but we're talking about a 105-year existence. And I get it. That's all we know. You know, we know that 105, and then we— some history. But for the most part, we're locked into this finite period of time. And because of what we see and what we experience, we are making a decision about an infinite God.

Who doesn't think the way that we think. There's one passage that says, He says, my thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways. As high as the heavens, my thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways. And then He talks about the distance between the two. So let's slow that down. The way that I think is not the way that you think. But what is more telling is he says, "And my ways, how I go about to achieve something, is different from the way that you would go about to achieve something." And so what if in the grand scheme of things, what if what I am lamenting as it relates to what I'm seeing, understandably so, murder, human trafficking, death, you know, just the most horrible things, And I understand that. I grieve with that too. But what if that's just one scene in the movie and the movie has an incredible redemption that is so absolutely phenomenal that it dwarfs the pain? So I've come to this place to where if I am in pain and I don't like it and I know what that feels like, my mentality is, oh my God, when I come through, when it's all said and done, the restoration, the reward that will happen once I go through this process is going to be so incredible that it won't even be— that the pain won't even be worried The pain won't even be worthy enough to be compared with this outcome.

I believe that. You know, I mean, that's the cross. I mean, Jesus went through the unthinkable for— I mean, the unthinkable physically, emotionally, even spiritually. And yet, and it was the worst thing that could have ever happened to him or anybody else. But the glory that was afterwards and the lives that were changed. And so, I think that— I know it's a long way of answering the question, but I think that we have to also understand that we are finite. And it is natural as finite beings to have questions, but to also recognize that we're only a blip on a timeline. And God has a way of proving that No matter what we face and no matter what it costs, the reward will always be greater.

You have the gift and give the gift of talking to tens of thousands of people, uh, more, more with your reach, that's millions, but one-on-one and hearing people's stories, tens of thousands, as well as your wife, my amazing friend Sarah, and your family and Throughout hearing so many different people's stories, would you say that this tends to be true? Because I have a lot of people that I've had the gift of talking to who share with me some horrific things they've gone through in their life or some trauma that they went through that later in their life, once they've made it through those things, they end up becoming one of their greatest sources and senses of purpose because they're able to help other people make it through those things, whether it's by sharing their story or by, you know, literally directly working with people that are experiencing the same things they've gone through. And do you think that— I think so many people try to make sense of, "Well, why am I going through these things?" Is part of the redemption and the beauty and the purpose, and in a way, the fulfillment or joy beyond comprehension is part of that come when we're able to have those kind of experiences in our life that don't make sense, that we wouldn't wish on anyone else.

But then it's almost like we, or maybe God intends us to then have something so much more beautiful come out of them that becomes so much bigger than ourselves.

Yes, I think that's part of the multiplication that I'm talking about.

Yeah, will you explain that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because the—

A lot of people have never heard that. So many people listening to us right now, they're like, "Tori and Jamie, what do you mean multiplication?" What— 'Cause everyone can relate to the hard things we've gone through. And then it's like, "How do I get closer to the knowing and the truth and the belief, or even maybe the seeing the evidence, like, 'Oh yeah, maybe God is multiplying this stuff.'" Will you explain multiplication?

For sure. So it is the healing— the healed becomes the healer. Okay, so, but if we work that backwards, healer is— that's the multiplication. I can heal many, but the healer has to become healed. And in order— and if we keep going, the healer has to become healed. And the only way that he or she, that they can become healed, is if they are in need of a healing. So, again, we're dealing with a God who sees the end from the beginning. So, I am stuck in my pain, I need to be healed. And I think that that's the end. And I understand that sometimes the pain can be so devastating that you don't care about being a healer. You're like, "I just need to—" and understandably, But you were created to be fruitful and to multiply.

We need to pause for a super brief break. And while we do, take a moment to share this episode with every single person that you know who this could inspire, because this conversation can truly be the words and inspiration they need to hear today to keep going, to remember that they matter, and to feel less alone and more enough, more connected, more inspired, inspired and more worthy. Who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self-belief. And I'd love to hang out with you even more, especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration, which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox each and every Tuesday morning from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to jamiekernlima.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your One-on-One with Jamie weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you. If you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy, and love hitting your inbox, I'm your girl.

Subscribe at jamiekernlima.com or in the link in the show notes.

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You were created to be fruitful and to multiply, right? And so, in order to be—

Do you think we all were? Are we all created to be fruitful and to multiply? And just for everyone listening, if you have never cracked open any type of religious text at all, right? The need to be fruitful is— and then to multiply, right, is to bear fruit, to grow into having a beautiful offering, share it with other people, and you're multiplying your own sense of purpose and of meaning and of being alive. And we're all— you're saying we're all created that way. We are all created to bear fruit and to multiply. So, i just want like, for the person listening right now, if you're like, "Huh," like, just think about this for a minute in your own life. Like, it doesn't have to necessarily be from your pain. It could be from other things. It could be from beautiful things you just have always been gifted with. But it can also be from the hard things you've gone through. And how do you then heal to then, start to bear fruit and multiply, becoming the healer, right? How does the healed turn into the healer? Because all of us can relate to that first stage of pain.

A lot of people are on healing journeys. And then, how do you get into that ultimate— it's so good.

All of us are multiplying something, right? We're here having a conversation and we are— we're multiplying. We've we're friends and we talk and we— I don't leave you the same. You don't leave me the same. Just by us interacting, I learned something that I didn't know. I thought about something that I hadn't thought about before. So, human interaction organically produces multiplication. You know, be fruitful and multiply. To be alive is to multiply. Now, that's not always positive. You know, sometimes we're multiplying generational, you know, brokenness or issues. But we're multiplying something. So, it is in our— It's like bearing bad fruit, rotten fruit. Yes, you're going to have fruitful— Yeah, okay. We didn't say what kind of fruit, you know. So, the human is wired to be fruitful and to multiply. Obviously, we want it to be good fruit. And so, the journey from being healed or needing to be healed or pain to healing to heal her is look at God's confidence. God's confidence is, I have created you in such a way that— I'll take one step back. The body is designed to literally heal itself. Mm-hmm. If it is in proper alignment.

Even if a bone is broken, if the bone is reset, it produces healing. So, the body's designed to heal. That's the mystery of creation. So, there is built into creation, if there is alignment for the body to heal, even after it has been injured. So, that literally is in the body. That's science. The body heals itself. A good doctor just puts you in a position to be healed. A doctor doesn't heal a broken arm. He just sets it back in place, puts something around it, protects it while it ultimately heals itself. There's some people right now, and you're going through something not realizing that God has put a protective thing around you. You can't see it, You know, and it doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't hurt, but you're— I almost just, I feel this unction. I just want to say it. There's someone, and you're actually healing. All you see is that you're hurting, and I'm sorry about that. I really am. And I love you and care about you. And in particular, I will be praying for you. But you are just as much healing as you are hurting. And knowing helps you to recognize that, because knowing says that God knows exactly where I am.

I am on God's map. I'm not one in— I'm not one of 7 billion. No, I'm one of one. And God knows every strand of hair on my head. He knows everything. God knows everything that I'm facing. And I'm experiencing, and get this, He has already seen you out. He's already seen you out. There's this one passage that I love, and God says, for I know the plans I have for you. They're good and not evil, plans to prosper you, not harm you. And here's why I love that passage. Of course, face value, it's very encouraging, but it's when you look up that Hebrew word where He says, I know, it's the Hebrew word yada. And it speaks to intimacy. It's the same word that was used to describe intimacy, physical intimacy in Scripture. So it's a word about experiencing. So if I understand that, when I hear that love letter from God, "For I know the plans I have for you," God is saying, "I am experiencing the good plans that I have for you. You're walking it out. I get it. But I am already experiencing it because in my way of being, it's already done.

And so knowing is about believing in such a way that you begin to start experiencing before it happens the ultimate good outcome that's assigned to my circumstance. And that's what knowing helps you to do. It helps you to understand that life is an unfolding. It's, it's It's still unfolding. Again, back to that breath. What does that mean? That means it's still unfolding. So it only looks like this, but guess what? It's gonna unfold again. And then when you get that level of unfolding and you need another one, if you're still alive, there's still yet another fold, another chapter. And I believe it will get better and better and better. Not simply because of circumstances, although circumstances will improve, but it will get better and better and better because you will know in greater ways. You go from guessing, wondering, to believing, to knowing. And that knowing aligns you. You get put into what I like to call alignment, where what I am sensing is what is real. And I start following that sensing, and I start participating with what God knew. And that's when things go to a whole nother level.

Hmm. If you're listening, you might be watching us on YouTube right now, but if you're listening, Torrey's putting his hand up in front of his mouth, blowing on it, which you can do right now in your life, like this second. You put your hand up, blow on it. And if you feel that, are you saying—

if you feel that breath on your hand, God is not done with you.

Oh, my goodness. Totally. I mean, you know, I love truth wherever I might find it. And— but in the Scripture, it says that God creates man, but before man becomes— and I'm talking about humankind— before they become alive, he breathes his breath into their nostrils. His breath. And that's when they come to life. And so back to putting my hand up and blowing on the microphone, that's that same breath. And that's creative power, that's creative ability. So you're not helpless or hopeless as long as you've got breath. You've got the— first of all, God's not finished. But secondly, you have the ability to produce something. And, um, you know, there's this, this word— the word aspire, um, is a very interesting word. If you break that word down, it means, uh, to breathe towards— from two words in, uh, the Latin— to breathe toward. Aspire is to breathe toward. And so a lot of people are just breathing. They, they're just, you know, they're just breathing. But when you come to a place of knowing, then you realize that your breath is not random and you begin to start aiming your breath. And now I'm breathing toward.

So what, for the person that's listening, what do you need? What do you desire? What desire has been placed in your heart? And if it's good, I believe it was divinely placed in your heart. So, what if I'm not just breathing or I'm using my breath to worry and be frightened? What if I took that breath and through prayer and through trusting and through the words that I speak, I start pointing that toward my aspiration? Aspire, it's to breathe toward. And I just, I don't know who's listening right now, Jamie, but I I just feel like someone's life is getting ready to turn around and to shift for the better. And, uh, can I just talk to that person just for a second? Like, I, I, I don't even know, you almost doubted listening to this or watching this, but you got apprehended and you, it feels like this podcast, this episode was just for you. It feels like you feel known. You feel totally known and seen right now. I want you to take inventory of that sensing because that's knowing. That's truth connected with the original knowing that's in you. Take a picture, download this, listen to this segment 1,000 times because that's your inner knowing coming alive.

And And I think that the fruit of this is going to be the faith, the ability, the strength. You were strengthless before you started listening. The strength to move toward, to breathe in a new direction, to breathe toward the goodness that God is experiencing on your behalf. And you're going to start experiencing it. And there's going to be, uh, some real confirmations. This This conversation is a confirmation, but you're gonna see things that were nearby that you didn't notice because you were just breathing randomly. You were breathing in despair. You're breathing hurt, and I understand that. But just as sure as you're hurting, you're healing, and something is happening right now.

I feel that for you. Torrey Roberts, I'm crying on my own show. No, no, no, this is like why— this is literally why I do this show. Moments I pray for like this. They're like—

Yeah. Yeah. You're a facilitator. You're a facilitator of miraculous and wonderful and powerful and life-changing things. I'll share more with you off camera, but that's who you are. And, um, and, uh, but you're human, you know, like we all are, and we're trying to figure it out, and, and, and we evolve. But the beautiful thing is, is knowing leads us in that evolution. And so we just keep sensing our way forward.

I have so many questions I want to ask you about knowing, and also one thing you just said I don't want anyone to miss, and it's really about the word inspire and about what direction are you breathing in right now? And think about, you know, for everyone listening right now in your life, is your breath even intentional? Are you just breathing wherever the wind is blowing and just trying to, you know, or are you breathing in the direction of things you feel on your heart? Are you breathing in the direction of your dreams? Are you breathing in the direction of love? Are you breathing in direction of fear? Can you just talk about that one more time for the person listening who's like, I've never even thought about which direction I'm breathing in?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's remarkable. There is— I talk about this in Knowing. I talk about the reality that we have an organ of perception. We mentioned sensing earlier, um, and the various senses and how knowing is actually the first sense. And we, all of us, have an organ of perception. Uh, we have to discover it, we have to recognize it, and then we have to train it through use, believe in it, and then use it and let it grow, let that sense grow. But we have that, and I bring that up because We're talking about breathing toward, but breathing toward what? How do we know what to breathe toward? I personally believe that something awakens. It's already in you and you just have to hear, but you're not hearing with your ears. You're not even hearing with your mind. You're hearing here in that invisible organ of perception. And if we are able to dust it off, dust off the, first of all, the disbelief in the ability to perceive on that level. If God created you with ears to hear, with a nose to smell, a tongue to taste, hands and feet to give you tactile ability, then why would He create you not to perceive His voice, uh, the truth.

That wouldn't be feasible. And so we know we have that. It just gets clouded and crowded. It gets diluted. The noise, the pain, all of the self-talk that's unprofitable. But if we can tap into that, with the awareness that our life, our very breath is our movement. Like right now you're moving, there's movement. Some of you feel stuck, but you're not. If you just put your hand over your abdomen and just be still for a moment, you'll realize that movement is taking place. If you put your hand over your heart right now, movement is happening. And so what I need to do is I need to connect with my knower, I need to connect with that organ of perception and begin to align that with how I move, how I think, how I breathe.

When you talk about knowing, so what are ways that someone can tell if they're not in alignment with their knowing? And then what are ways they can tell, oh yeah, I'm tuned into it?

Yeah. Peace is a huge part of it. There is peace. There's a Greek word for peace. It's eirene, and it means one. So we think of peace and we think that peace is an emotion. And there are emotions associated with peace. But peace is an awareness. Peace is a there's nothing missing in this moment. There's nothing missing in— you could have all sorts of things going on in your life, but in this moment of focus, there's peace. That's a sign, like peace, because peace and wholeness are the same. And so when I am aligned, what I feel is peace, whether that's in a relationship. You're, you're, you're dating, uh, you know, the guy's gorgeous, he's successful, you're excited, but if you're honest, you don't have peace. Or the, the deal, the, the company that you're looking to invest in, or the, the company that you're buying, or the company you want to start, or the partner that you want to engage— everything looks good on paper And so there is, that can even be excitement because of what it looks like. But then somewhere in you, you can't explain it. It doesn't make sense, but you're unsettled.

And so oftentimes one of the greatest referees of indecision is peace. Sometimes, because again, we're talking about knowing, And knowing knows 20 years down the road. So if I am considering a relationship, an acquisition, a move out of state, whatever, if I don't have peace, even though it looks good on paper, that might be knowing saying, uh-uh, I know you can't see it, but if you get into partnership with this guy, when the company is successful, they're gonna sue you. You know what I mean? Or if you get into a romantic relationship with this guy, there's something about his life, her life, their life that you can't see yet, or it may arise. So again, knowing is dealing with an infinite knowledge base. And that's in us. That's in us. We just have to train it. And so peace oftentimes is the referee. Mm.

Do you think our body also gives us signs of knowing? Like, we just feel— like, maybe we feel things before our mind can catch up with it? Absolutely.

And the main thing, you gotta trust it. You gotta trust it. I, I've had— you know, I talk about in the book, I've had moments where I just knew, and I overrode what I knew, and I paid for it. And there were other times where I just knew but I let fear talk me out of what my knowing was trying to talk me into, and I lost opportunity. And so it's a beautiful journey of discovering it, training it, and flowing in it. And, and that's again why I felt like, you know, I'm living this. And not just me, I, I know a lot of my close friends that really get this and understand it, but the masses are understandably inundated with so much noise and so much fear. And I get it. It's like, there's a lot to be concerned about. And yet, even in the midst of that uncertainty, knowing will bring certainty to you. Do we—

can you talk about the power of getting still? Yeah. And how does someone do that?

And does it matter? Yeah, it totally matters. It's hard. I'll be honest with you. It takes discipline to get still. And it does because every single day, we have got so much coming at us. And it's not just life. I mean, let's just be honest. There's a thing called an attention economy, where my attention and your attention is for sale. You know what I mean? That's why it's called pay attention, because people pay for your attention, right? And so it's very difficult to silence all of that. But we have to take responsibility over our own stillness because we can't create an environment of clarity for the voice, sometimes the faint voice of knowing, to rise up and speak. And so, it is hard, but what we must do— see, sometimes it takes trust to be still. Me personally, it is just as, you know, it's harder for me to stop than it is for me to start. Like, you know, sometimes some people need faith to start something. You know, I'm good with that. I need faith to stop and to believe that I can actually stop and pause and be still, even though I've got all these things going on and it not crumble.

But the reason why I've been blessed and I am blessed to keep moving forward, to keep advancing, is because I make stillness. And I'll maybe get into some specifics. I make stillness my responsibility. I have a responsibility to myself, to my family, to everyone around me to make certain that the cleanest thoughts and subsequently the cleanest decisions and actions are taking place. And I can't get the cleanest version of my output unless I get still. So for me, I go to sleep really early. I had a guy text me, he knew I was in town, I was coming to California and he's like, "Yeah, let's do dinner, 8 o'clock." I'm like, "Bro, I'm in bed by 8:30." And here's why, because my still time is early in the morning. Sometimes, even with Sarah, sometimes we want to watch something and I'm sleeping 10 minutes and I go with it. Because I am prioritizing my still time. For someone, it might be late at night. For me, it's early in the morning. So you have to protect it and you have to plan it. Stillness is not just going to show up and you have to plan it.

When does it work for you? When is it the quietest for you? And everyone's different. The mandate is to do it, is to make it happen and structure it in such a way. So that space, then when you get into that space, you got to let it go. You got to let it all go and trust that it is actually okay to not think about 40 things. It's okay just to get still and then see what rises. Is that what you do?

So for the person going, okay, I'm going to get still, then what do I do? What do you do?

Get your pen and get your journal up. Stillness first. And qualify it. Don't just write everything that comes to you. If something that you know is not really profitable comes, just come on back to center. Don't get mad at yourself. Don't judge yourself. Just say, hey, I am pursuing clarity. May be about a particular thing. And until I get instructions, not worried, and again, it's going to be marked by and qualified by peace, because when knowing speaks, peace is with it. Now, it might be peace that requires, and this is kind of going in another direction, it might— the The feeling might be peace, but that peace, which marks the fact that it's true, might call you to do something which will require you to mourn. Mm. You have to let go of something that you don't want to let go of. But the instruction— I tell this story. I was married before I met Sarah. Celebrating, oh, we've been together for 12 years. But before that, um, I was, I was married. Um, uh, unfortunately it wasn't a good marriage, but I was married and I was in a counseling session trying to make it work.

And the therapist uncovered something that was hard. Um, I knew it was true because in a weird way there was peace with it, but it meant that I was going to have to go and do something that I didn't want to do. I was going to have to face the fact that the marriage was over. So, sometimes just because there is peace in the delivery, you know, because, you know, if God sends you mail, it will be marked by his presence, which is peace. But that doesn't mean what you have to do is going to be peaceful. Sometimes the unfolding necessitates some really tough decisions.

Yeah, and you share in the book that whole journey. Yeah. Of that first marriage and of all of it. And even after, I guess, God delivered you peace and you knew what you had to do, so it wasn't easy after.

It was horrifying because I was only looking at it in one frame. But now you pan out 13 years later, and I couldn't be me now, had I not done that, had I not been willing to mourn. There's this passage that says, "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted." You're like, "Wait a minute, how can it be a blessing to mourn?" Well, it just means that sometimes in order to get to what God knows about you, you're going to have to grieve something that you thought— you're gonna have to grieve a relationship. You're gonna have to grieve an idea that you had that was smaller than God's idea for you.

And sometimes, you just don't even know how it's all gonna work out, right? Like, I just— you know, this is big for me recently, but we were matched with a surrogate and going forward to have another kid. And I don't know what it was, I couldn't shake shake this feeling that like something was off and I wasn't supposed to go forward with it. And this is like a year into it. It takes a long time. And normally, I would just bury that down and keep going, and my mind would outthink it and be like, "You are so blessed." And all that's true. This is a blessing. I couldn't shake this feeling, and it made no sense. And it took like months of me agonizing. And I finally just told my husband, Paulo, I'm like, You know, Paulo, I was like, I'm gonna trust this. I'm gonna trust this. And, and so we parted ways. And in my past, I would not have done that. I would hold on to people too long. I would stay in bad relationships too long. I would keep friends around that were not good friends, like, you know. And I, and I'm starting to try and trust that knowing more and more.

And in that case, I'll probably, in human experience never know if, if that was the right decision or not. But I felt peace after, and I also still felt— I still second-guessed myself in my head, but my body felt peace. So I was like, okay, that must be knowing.

It totally is. And you may never— sometimes you actually do see why the knowing talked you out of something or led you in a different direction. But sometimes you may not, but that's not the point. The point is I know the knowing. So, I mean, there's an opportunity on the table for me right now, and it isn't a no, but it isn't a yes. So sometimes the knowing is not yet, and you have to trust that because timing is everything. The right thing at the wrong time is a disaster, you know. And so I— even with that, which you just described, I'm confident what, what you just described to me is knowing, you know, regardless of if whether or not the outcome one way or another is in front of you. I guarantee you that peace, you know, the peace is the sign. That's how you know.

Peace is the sign. Peace is the sign. Okay, so everywhere around us right now, AI, artificial intelligence. And then you hear about AGI, artificial general intelligence. Now they're talking about higher up on the pyramid, this next level of super intelligence. You talk about something above all that, divine intelligence. Share with us divine intelligence.

I totally love AI. Use it. I'm excited about its advances. Some people are concerned, and I have concerns, but I'm excited about that tool. But AI is only as good as what you put into it. So AI will never rise above human input, even AGI. And I can't think of the other one where it is ultimately going to be where we're training it to train itself. But even still, it's human input. Divine intelligence is on a whole nother level. This is the, the reality that we have access to the mind, the thoughts, and the knowledge of God the Creator, which is crazy, like, but it's, but it's true. We are creating his image. This does not mean that we're going to be God. I'm not painting that because God is— I was going to say he's finished, but there was no beginning and there was no end. God just is. So, I call it, you know, when I preach, I call it the "is-ness" of God. God just is. There's no beginning, there's no end. We have a beginning and an end. And that is one of the reasons why we'll never be all-knowing is because we're still working things out.

We're still growing. However, As we grow in our knowing, there will be prolific changes in our awareness, our ability to quickly— now it might take us a week to discover the divine path, but as we grow, just like with any other sensing, with any other skill, we get better at it. And so we can decide quicker, which is important because speed is money and time is money and all that kind of stuff. A divine intelligence is the reality that we have access to the mind of God. Now, whether or not we position ourselves to lean into that, to grow in that resource or not, is one thing. But we do have access to divine intelligence. And I've got, like, I think I was mentioning in the book, I have been, I've experienced knowing things that I just should not know. Um, one book, my book called Whole— in my second book, Wholeness, and I wrote it. And I don't have a background in psychology or anything like that. I just wrote it. I sat there and I prayed, and I— there were moments where I cried because I felt something coming through me. And, uh, and I have therapists, PhDs, that use a book that a non— my background is business— that a non- PhD person, and they're using this with their clients.

Where did that come from? They went to school for years, and I'm sure they use their school books, but this is a central book that a lot of them use. How did I know that? Where did that come from? Well, that's divine intelligence. I just made myself available through disciplines, through relationship, through seeking, through being still, through training that organ of perception, that inner knower, And now I'm having, in some cases, the same impact as someone who went to school because I tapped into divine intelligence. And so, yeah, I unpack that really deeply in the book.

I think that concept, divine intelligence superseding AI, AGI, superintelligence, I think it gives us a whole lot of hope. And when I read that in your book, I'm like, oh, that's good. Like, that's so good and so powerful.

Jamie, it's going to be okay. I, I, um, I was, I was in a meeting recently and people were concerned and they were concerned about artificial intelligence. I remember in that meeting, and of course, everyone knows how wonderful it is, but they also are concerned. Everybody's racing to evolve it. They know that it's evolving faster than regulation can keep up with. But the mentality is, well, we have more morality than others. So, at least if it's going to happen, we want to be the ones that steward it, which is interesting. But anyway, I digress. In that meeting, There was a lot of concern and I just said, guys, I said, I know we're worried about AI, but it will never ever supersede divine intelligence. I said, I know that we've got a lot of challenges. I know we've got a lot of things to fix in our world. I know there are a lot of things that perplex us. I get it. But there is hope. Again, got to pan out. We're in this moment in time, but there is a plan. There literally is a strategy for good. And that strategy is in the stream of knowing.

And if we can get to knowing whether we are a mom at home trying to figure out what the next move is, a president, you know what I mean? Or anyone, just a businessman that's trying to figure out what his next move is, concerns about the economy and what's going to take place. I'm telling you, there is a strategy that, that we are not without a plan. We just have to be still enough and be tapped in enough to the place where all of the insight, all the tools, all the witty ideas, all the strategy, all the innovation, and all the inspiration exists. And that's in knowing. Mm.

So in this, for this podcast, you know, I have a lot of people listening who have really, really strong faith. And then there's people who have no faith, who practice all different faiths, who believe the universe has got their back, who believe that, I mean, all of it, the gamut, who vote different, love different, identify different, all of it. And so one question I'm always so curious about fascinated by, that I just love to talk about, and is how, especially with your life journey, with how you, with your offering to the world every single day, with the impact you've already had and continue to have, how are you certain that God exists?

Well, first of all, I love everyone, uh, regardless of how they do what they do. We're all on a journey, uh, and I have so much respect for the journey. And I think where people get, uh, they get it wrong is they feel like they are supposed to be the captain, the steward of someone else's journey, and that's a mistake. You actually mess up the journey by insisting that the journey be a certain way, which is doubt. It's very doubtful to do that. That means that you don't trust the God that you profess, so much so that he needs you to strong-arm people into the way that they should go. For me, there's no way that I can explain. The grace, the goodness, the confirmation, the whisper that became known, that was revealed that it was truth. Not a one-off, not a two-off. I mean, a consistent pattern. You talk about pattern recognition, a consistent pattern of knowing and then the outcome from that knowing. God can be known. God wants to be known. And it would be— I don't even need faith anymore to believe in God. Faith is when you need to believe in something that you can't see.

I've got too much history. I've got too much evidence. There's this passage that says, "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." I've seen too much. So my relationship with God is not even a relationship of faith anymore. It used to be faith. Now it's knowing. Now I know faith is for people who don't know. And you just you see God in all these areas of your life. And you see, you know, you put in your trust here and you having this inspiration, this knowing to trust this, to trust this path. And you, and you follow that path and you're like, whoa, and your life radically changes. Jamie, I've had that so much that my relationship with God is not even faith anymore. It is, it is, it would take faith for me to not believe in God. If that makes sense. But everyone has their own journey. But I do think that if you don't have that experience where you feel, first of all, entirely known, entirely loved, because God is love, God doesn't just— they say God doesn't have love, God is love. So that means that wherever there is God, love should be present.

You know, now sometimes love is challenging because, you know, sometimes, you know, I love my kids, but sometimes I have to correct them, you know, I have to put them on punishment, you know. So, let's not misunderstand what love is. But I think that anyone who truly, truly seeks out the one who made them in earnest, and to not be religious about it in any direction. Because you have people who are obviously religious and they kind of shove it down your throat. And then you have some people who are so anti-religious that they become religiously anti-religious. And so anything that looks like religion, they have now become religious against that. So if you approach it with an openness, even the book, I'm definitely a believer and I believe in God I believe in the Holy Spirit, and I believe in Jesus. But if you read the book with an open mind, you— there's no forcing at all. What you will come away with is an incredible interpretation of a God that I don't think anyone will reject. A God of love, a God of intention, a God of mercy and grace, and one who is experiencing his good plan for your life.

If Jesus were right here walking around, what would he not recognize if he went into a sampling of Christian-based churches across the country?

Honestly, probably, probably wouldn't recognize 99% of our churches. And I don't mean that as a dig. I just think that sometimes we turn movements into monuments and we make the church about the church, and the church was never meant to be about the church, Jamie. The church was always meant to be about people. God loves people. And he would rather you not have this fancy institution, if he had to choose between you having this fancy institution with all the bells and the whistles and the lights, and we have all of that, versus you being 100% committed to people and loving people, touching people, serving people, elevating people, and building people, he would tear the building down in 2 seconds flat. Um, again, I think that there's some great churches doing it well. I really do. Many more than, than get the credit that they deserve, to be honest. But I don't think it was ever about that. You never saw Jesus building that. You saw him building people. And that's my mission. My mission is not to build big, big facilities. The only reason why I would build a a big facility is to facilitate people.

But the ultimate goal is to build big people. Jesus loves hard. He is not arrogant. He is not proud. He's not, you know, boastful and boisterous. No, He's meek. He's relatable. He's lovable. And He is into us unlike anything we've ever experienced.

For someone listening right now who's like, I want a relationship with the one who created me, but I got a lot of people in my life who, who I do not agree— like, like something feels incongruent. They say that they're Christian, but then they don't love their neighbor, and they don't— they, they are judgmental or discriminatory or exclusionary or any of those things, right? There's, you know, so many things happening in our country right now, like the worship of power under, like, the guise of religion. There's so many things happening everywhere. And to a regular person who is so busy just trying to figure out, how do I deal with the cost of living increase, and how do I take care of the family and they're running around, but maybe they feel a void in their life because they do not have a relationship with their creator. And maybe they want one, but they're like, "Eh, but like, look at all of this." From your perspective, you know, you pastor, you co-pastor one of the most beloved successful churches in the country. You have created churches in addition to that. You have your finger on the pulse of everything going on.

What impact is that having on people seeking a relationship with Jesus or Christianity as a faith?

Yeah, first of all, it's, it's, uh, I could cry right now over, uh that. Yeah, what you're describing. And I've seen it, and, uh, and it's hurtful. It's hurtful to me because it doesn't represent the Lord. Um, there is a— nor is it new, nor is the ability— the, the strategy to take what is good and pure and influential and twist it toward one's agenda. That's not new at all. We can go back thousands of years and find that. But it reminds me of this disappointing conversation that Jesus had in the Bible with the religious leaders at the time. And he was very frustrated. The only time you see Jesus really, really frustrated it wasn't with people who may have had colorful experiences in life. In fact, he seemed to gravitate more toward them. Where you saw Jesus frustrated was with the religious leaders. And here is this one point he said. He said, "You guys don't—" I'm paraphrasing now. This is the Torrey translation. He says, "You guys aren't getting it right." He said, "But what's worse is you're keeping the people who need it from getting it right. And that's how I feel.

Jesus never called himself a Christian. They were believers. He said, "Those who believe, those who believe." So Christian is kind of— in the Bible, they called themselves Christians when they were trying to figure out what to call themselves because they weren't— these Gentiles or non-Jewish people were trying to figure out what their identity was. Jesus, he said, "Believe." And not only did He say believe, He said, and people will know that you're the truth by your love. Okay. So we're gonna get into what He said. But the other reason is that term now, it means so many different things. It's ultimately, it saddens me. And so to that person who's like, you know, when I hear about Jesus, I'm good. But when I see people who call His name, Here it is. I don't have peace. Okay, so follow that. If you have peace when you hear that Jesus is a lover and that Jesus is for the outcast and that resonates deeply, fine, follow that. If you see someone who's talking about Jesus, but he is, or she, they're criticizing the marginalized or they're promoting politicians with very, very questionable ethics, then trust the absence of that peace.

But my belief is that if someone just categorically is repulsed by Jesus, they either don't have enough information about him or somewhere got some bad info. Jesus is irresistible.

Irresistible. We have to take the word Christian back. Ah, I like that. To take the word Christian back. I like that. I think that there's a lot of confusion between like imperfect humans and God's perfect love. And I think people are, especially people that feel a void in their life, want to have a relationship with their creator, but maybe see all of this stuff happening by imperfect humans, which isn't representative of Jesus, but is done in the name of Jesus. I think that's sort of a thing right now. And that's been something I think about a lot lately is, 'cause I hear people saying, I mean, there's people that, there's this whole movement now in the country where people don't even want to identify as a, they don't associate associate themselves with the word citizen, because they even start to feel like that is now affiliated with a political party. They want to be a neighbor, but not citizen. Like, there's people feeling strong feelings against the flag of the country or against a particular faith, and it's like, wow, it's just so divided right now. I think people, in my opinion, need God's love more than ever.

Need God's love more than ever.

I'm challenged by what you said in a really, really good way. You said we've got to take the word Christian back. That's gonna— I'm gonna be driving in my car thinking about that because that's true. Even if we don't— even if it's not about a title, but it's about an identity. Yeah, that's— you're— I, as a leader, as a by God's grace, a major leader in the Christian church, you just charged me. I mean, of course, we're going to be it, but to not be so discouraged that you just abandon that and start something new, but to put a stake in the ground and say, "This is Christ." That's powerful. That's really— that's a very—

if you were to speak the truth right now, the truth tied to knowing, and someone says, what's a Christian? What's the truth? Who is a Christian? What would you say, Torrey? I would say— what's the truth?

The truth is a Christian who— a Christian is someone who really knows God, who really knows Jesus, who knows Jesus's heart, His heart for people, who understands Jesus' agenda to ultimately, in the process of time, annihilate everything that is anti-human, that is anti-evil. I mean, so good, so radiatingly good that his very essence and presence illuminates and extinguishes darkness. This is Jesus. And this is not violent. This is love. It's powerful. And it expels everything that isn't love. And I'm not just talking about the behavior of those who are deranged. I'm talking about negative thoughts. I'm talking about fear. I'm talking about ideas of worthlessness. As violent as some of the things that we're saying, to not believe about ourselves, to not believe that we are worthy, you know, "I might not get your book," you know, that is violence too. To not believe that I am loved, and I am valuable, and I'm worth something, and I've got an incredible plan, that's violence too. So, a Christian is someone who really gets Jesus, understands that Jesus's whole mission and mandate is love. Jesus didn't have love, he was love, and is passionately intentional about diligently expressing that love in any way that it can be expressed, to be creatively, you know, to be creative in their expression of God's love forever, the end, period.

That's what a Christian is.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And when I think of Christian, I think of, you know, learning to love God and love your neighbor. And when I think of Jesus, I think of healing the sick. Yes. And feeding the poor. And, you know, supporting the marginalized and loving and including and wrapping your arms around the least and the lost. Like, to me, that is— that love, like, I feel in my being that like if Jesus were right here, he would love you no matter how you vote, no matter your past mistakes, no matter your failures, no matter your shortcomings, your this, your that. And he brings together and unites. And it's in so many ways the opposite of what's being represented out there right now. So yeah, I think, uh, yeah.

I gotta tell you something. I— this was about 15 years ago. I was laying in my bed. And a presence arose. And I instantly knew that this presence was Jesus. 4 things that were unmistakable and unforgettable. Number 1, I could not perceive an ethnicity. It was almost as if he was, he, he just had, there was no definable ethnicity. That was the first thing. Second thing was he was extremely powerful, but it was all reserved. And so in other words, if he wanted Mount Rushmore to just turn into sand, it could happen without him even flinching. He could just will it and it would happen. So it was strength under major constraint. The third thing was, there was this deep, deep look in his eyes. And, and I was trying to understand, what is this? It was just a very, very piercing, deep look. What is that? And then, and he was like, you know what it is. And it was like, souls is how I feel about people. I'm serious about people. I don't see them as— I, I— they're— they are my focus. But the fourth thing was really, really heavy. And his presence had an atmosphere that was overwhelming.

And that atmosphere was love. It was not an emotion. It was not a feeling. It was literally a realm. And in that realm, it was impossible to access unforgiveness, bitterness, offense. I mean, it could be someone who'd done the worst thing to you. You couldn't even access that. It in this environment. That's Jesus. Very powerful, could do, could will, could any, he could do anything without even thinking about it. Just will it and it would be so. And yet he doesn't. Um, could care less about distinction. Could care, none of it matters whatsoever. Um, is very, very serious about the human soul, the human being. And I like it. I like that he said soul, because there are people and they're hurting in their souls right now. You know, yes, they can be, you know, struggling with emotional things and mental things and physical things. I get that. But what is more damaging than any of that is to have your soul damaged. And to feel worthless is a wound to the soul. To feel less than, to feel— that's a— that goes beyond your mind. Affects it, but it goes beyond your mind. That's a soul wound because that— I am a soul.

At the end of the day, I'm Torrey. I, you know, I'm a man, you know, but I am a soul. The deepest part of me is my soul. And that's what Jesus sees. And, uh, and, and, and the love, the commitment to the soul and the love. So if it doesn't look like that, and listen, you're right. We are all trying to get there. But there ought to be some semblance of that type of love, that type of grace, that type of mercy that reveals and validates the fact that this person really, really knows God. Hmm.

Woo! I think, by the way, I've gotten to none of my questions on my cards because also I want to say one thing. To you in case I forget to tell you this before you leave. When you and I— when you, me, and Sarah were talking in the cottage before this, and I was like, "I don't know. This show is so much work." Like, I was talking about, "I don't know, you know, like, this show, this podcast is so much work." I am having so many moments in this conversation where I'm like, "Okay, this is why I have to do this podcast. This is why I have to do this podcast." because the things you're sharing, like, if I'm crying over here over and over, I don't cry that often on the show, but if I am crying over it, I'm thinking about the person at home and how they're having so many epiphanies, aha moments about things, and thinking about, are they tuned in in any way, shape, or form to knowing, as you describe it, to divine intelligence and what that looks like. And have they been maybe turning down the volume on their own faith because of the misrepresentations of faith out there right now?

And are they ready to go, "Okay, that's actually separate. Let me get back in touch with what I know." to use your word, what I know feels like peace and feels true. And how do I invest in that and not get distracted? Also, how do I have hope in the bigger plan? You talk about, okay, we're here 105 years, let's say, but you're about zooming way out, right? And it's so easy in our human bubble to go, oh my gosh, AI and this and that. And it's like, okay, yeah, also zoom way out on the bigger plan. Talk about divine intelligence over all of this. Like, it's this, this, this is so powerful what you're sharing. I do want to say, uh, also wait till you get Knowing Home, because the book Knowing, Toraj coming out. It's out right now. You can grab your copy. And, uh, The Journey to Certainty in an Uncertain World. So many tools, so many tips, so many stories in this book. I want to ask you, in your words, for the person listening right now, who would you say this book is for? And also, what can they expect when they get it home?

Or when they grab it right now on Audible? I'll answer the second question first.

There are going to be so many questions answered. There's going to be so much clarity. When they finish reading this book, they will be clearer than they've ever been before. And I'm not just saying this because I wrote it. In a way, I feel like I didn't write it, to be honest with you. I was very yielded. My focus was love. And so when you read it, you will literally feel love. You'll feel someone who's on the journey like you, perhaps a few steps ahead, but you will feel seen. You will feel known. You will feel love. I think it's for— honestly, I think it's for anyone. Because all of us are in this place where we are seeking a grounding. Everything is shaking around us. I can't think of any part of life right now that isn't shaking in some way. And that's okay, as long as I know that I've got some footing that I can rely upon. But I think that they're going to feel closer to God. I think that their life is going to make a little bit more sense. I think that there's some who are on the brink of a decision, a transition, and they don't have clarity about it.

I think they're going to put— close that book with clarity about what to do next, without a doubt. I think that they're going to walk away with a sharpened sense of awareness, confidence, knowing. And I think it's going to be an aligning book that shifts the trajectory of lives. I really do. I really do.

I do too.

When we were talking in the cottage and we shared a little bit and you kind of thinking about next, and I knew that whether it was just rest or a moment of stillness or whatever, I knew that clarity was going to kick in. I don't know. Can I just be— is everyone in this— if I were to give you a word? Yeah. Okay. Um, I did a series in church. I did it twice called The Modern Church. And the premise of that series was that what keeps people from really leaning into their calling is that they think that it has to look a certain way. And that's one of the reasons why I started Called Leaders. And it's for— it's not for pastors. I mean, pastors can come, but it's for entrepreneurs and business leaders because they haven't quite made the connection between what they do and their calling. And they think it's separate, but it's the same. And, and you are— and this term is going to— it might even feel weird, but you are functionally in God's order, an evangelist. And the evangelist has an anointing to draw and impact a lot of people.

And there, I mean, I could really unpack the whole thing, but I want to highlight that. And the modern evangelist is not the Amy Semple McPhersons of the world. You have to study her. She's amazing. That had a big church and was going around reaching people. What's interesting with her is that she was like a pastor in the 1920s. She built this incredible church, but it was right here in LA. And she used media to reach the masses of people. She used arts, creativity, media, And her legacy is still— the movement she started is still going. That was in the '20s. You're an evangelist, and that's why you have a love for people. You ask questions that are connected to what people feel. You feel people. And when you feel people— Sarah's an evangelist too. She does some other stuff, but she's an evangelist. When you feel people, you can reach people. And so God has given you incredible, incredible influence. And this podcast, I mean, you've had, you've had everybody on this podcast and it's done extremely well, but it's something that you carry. It's not even about them. It's about you. And it's about the, the, even as you talked about the gentleman that you kind of helped to redo is— that's all a part of it.

That's the technical gifting and ability that you have that— and you take that same innovation, that technical ability, you're basically saying, this is how you reach people. Why? Because you're an evangelist. You're wired to reach and to impact people. And I think that this It's interesting, we wanted the talk show. The studios are getting rid of the talk show because the industry is moving toward this. So, but I don't think that it's even going to stay here. I think that you're going to, with the fresh wind of creativity, you're going to evolve this into like this multi-tiered, multi-vertical thing that multiplies the influence that you're already having. So this is calling. This is calling. You don't have to go and get a business card and say, "Evangelist Jamie Kern Lima." I'm just telling you spiritually who you are and what you carry. And it's going to get real good. And God is going to attract— some of them are already here, some are coming— wonderful people who will not allow the weight to be unbearable. And they will, uh, Um, they will complement, uh, your gift and your sights. They will sharpen you. Uh, so take your strengths, all the strengths that you have, it's gonna be multiplied because of the people that God is gonna send you and the ideas and the infrastructure.

And so this is about calling and, uh, and that's everything I'm about. And I wrote that book, honestly, I just feel like so many people are gonna find God because of that book. And they're going to find God. I was talking to Sarah this morning. They're going to find God through the vehicle of knowing, the curiosity. And it doesn't— I mean, you read it. I don't back away from Christ in the book, but it also doesn't shove him down. It's all about knowing and Christ is weaved into that knowing. But that's what God has made really clear to me, is that a lot of people are going to meet him through that book. And if it's the last book I wrote, you know, I don't know if it will be. I have other books in me, but I'm not thinking about anything other than this book right now. I think it's going to reach people in a real big way.

Well, first, thank you for what you just said. I receive that, and that's what I'll be thinking about tonight, uh, the tools in this book too. And I'm not even— you guys, I'm not even— I feel like I'm not even scratching surface in our conversation of what's in here, from the power of I Am statements to how you talk about the power of our words, how our words create worlds. There's so much in here. My very last question is, why do you think so many people feel called and don't step into it fully?

Oh, it's terrifying. Yeah. It's, I think, a few things. I think that it is difficult to recognize a call without a voice of affirmation. You need someone to make you think that you're not crazy or overzealous. My hope is that the book will be that voice for some to let them know, hey, you're not crazy, you're called. And then it is a little scary. It requires leaps of faith, steps of faith. But the awesome thing is a step of faith is it feels like you're stepping out on nothing, but that's not true. You're stepping out on what you know. And the only way that you can feel what you know come to fruition is if you step, because your steps have been pre-ordered. It's already done. But if you don't move, if you don't breathe toward what you know, then you cannot feel the pavement that looks like nothing. Yeah. It's, I'm thinking about Peter in the story and Peter's in a boat. And Peter sees Jesus walking on water. Peter says, hey, if that's really You, let me walk on water too. And Jesus says, come. Peter gets out the boat and he starts walking on water.

Well, he didn't really walk on water. He walked on what was written. When Jesus said, come, this wasn't a response. Peter's question, let me do this, was his knowing kicking in saying, "I'm supposed to do this." Jesus is like, "Yeah, confirmation, come." He starts walking on water, he does it. People focus on the fact that he started sinking later. You know when he started sinking? Is when he started making his reality his circumstances and not his knowing. And so if you make your reality your circumstances, your circumstances will drown you. But if you tap into your knowing and you live in your knowing, you'll do the never been seen before.

Woo! All right. I've got no mascara left. Holy moly. All right. Torrey Roberts, go get your copy right now of Knowing. It is everywhere books are sold, on Audible. How can people find you?

Everything Torrey Roberts, um, website, Instagram, Threads, YouTube, you know, the whole Facebook, the whole, the whole gamut. TikTok, all of it. Yep.

All around the world too. Uh, we'll link to everything as well in the show notes and in all of our stuff. So if you're listening right now, you can literally just look down on your app right now, click and go pick up Knowing. And I know I know you're gonna love it. I know you're gonna love it. And it's gonna profoundly impact your life. I can say that with confidence. I'm so grateful you're here in person. What a gift to see you and Sarah. We were walking over here to the studio and I was like, "I got two friends for the price of one." I'm like, "What a day, what a gift." Thank you so much. Thank you.

Remember, this episode's not just for you and me. Please share this with every single person you know because it can impact it can change their life too. And if you love today's episode, click the follow or subscribe button for the show on the app that you're listening to it on or watching it on. And if it added value to your life, if you could please give it a rating or review, I love a great 5-star, I would be so grateful.

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And thank you so much for joining me. Before you go though, I want to share some words with you that couldn't be more true.

You right now, exactly as you are, are enough and fully worthy. You're worthy of your greatest hopes, your wildest dreams, and all the unconditional love in the world. And it's an honor to welcome you to each and every episode of the Jamie Kern Lima Show. Here, I hope you'll come as you are, heal where you need, blossom what you choose, journey toward your calling, and stay as long as you'd like because you belong here. You are worthy You are worthy. You are loved. You are love. And I love you. And I cannot wait to join you on the next episode of the Jamie Kern Lima Show. In life, you don't soar to the level of your hopes and dreams. You stay stuck at the level of your self-worth. When you build your self-worth, you change your entire life. And that's exactly why I wrote my new book, Worthy. How to believe you are enough and transform your life for you. If you have some self-doubt to destroy and a destiny to fulfill, Worthy is for you. In Worthy, you'll learn proven tools and simple steps that bring life-changing results, like how to get unstuck from the things holding you back, build unshakable self-love, Unlearn the lies that lead to self-doubt and embrace the truths that wake up worthiness.

Overcome limiting beliefs and imposter syndrome. Achieve your hopes and dreams by believing you are worthy of them and so much more. Are you ready to unleash your greatness and step into the person you were born to be? Imagine a life with zero self-doubt, and unshakable self-worth. Get your copy of Worthy plus some amazing thank you bonus gifts for you at worthybook.com or the link in the show notes below. Imagine what you'd do if you fully believed in you. It's time to find out with Worthy. Who you spend time around is So important as energy is contagious and so is self-belief. And I'd love to hang out with you even more, especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration, which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, Just go to jamiekernlima.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your One-on-One with Jamie weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you. If you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy, and love hitting your inbox, I'm your girl.

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